Slashdot Mirror
An Indian On the Moon By 2020
turgid writes, "The Hindustan Times reports that the Indian Space Research Organization plans to land an Indian on the Moon by 2020. First, experiments will be conducted to launch, orbit, and recover a capsule. Plans are to launch an Indian into space in 2014. Manned orbital missions will be launched, initially for a day, but eventually lasting a week or more. Expeditions to the Moon are expected to last 15 days to a month." The article doesn't estimate the cost of such a program. The US Apollo program cost about $135 billion (in 2006 dollars), according to Wikipedia.
... oh, you meant the other kind
And never put a man in space before? Hey, It's possible, and I wish you the best, but *good luck* It's not like there's about to be a cold war style infusion of cash for ya.
Americans haven't been to the Moon in decades. I think we could possibly recruit Indians for space travel here in the U.S., but I think they'd have reservations.
The article doesn't estimate the cost of such a program. The US Apollo program cost about $135 billion (in 2006 dollars), according to Wikipedia.
Yes, but considering that, much like the elephant population, these estimates have TRIPLED IN THE LAST SIX MONTHS, I'm guessing that cost is closer to $405 billion.
Push Button, Receive Bacon
I wonder if call centers are cheaper to run on the moon?
China, India, wtf??
Engineering is the art of compromise.
take-away delivery service.
First post!
This site is too American centric. The time difference and most common time of posting makes first posting too hard for me.
"This is one small step for a man , one giant leap in cost savings for Space Inc"
Dell: Hello - this is Tim (it's really Samir) with Dell support, could I have your name please?
Me: Rich Jones
Dell: Can I call you by your first name?
Me: Sure
Dell: Ok, Mr. Rich (this always happens) - how can I help you today?
Me: I wanted to check on the status of the replacement batteries I'd ordered for some laptops.
Dell: Let's see here... Uh.. oh! Solar flare!
Dell Automated System: Thank you for calling Dell, we can't determine how to route your call. Please hang up now.
A lot of the cost of the American space program was developing technology that is now commonplace. The Indian IT team will have better equipment on day one than the US had on the day of the lunar landing, for example. India is no slouch in telecoms terms either.
Also, there was a lot of experimentation involved in the first space exploration that doesn't need to be done again. We know how to make space suits, and, thanks mainly to the Russians, we know a lot about the effects of long-term zero-gravity trips on the human body.
And even if America and Europe don't play ball (which is depressingly likely on past form), I'm sure the Russians will be willing to hand over as much technology as the Indians don't feel like reinventing.
So it won't be cheap, but I'd expect it to be cheaper in real terms than the first race to the moon.
And I'm taking as read that the Indian space program really has the same motivation as European and American space exploration, ie it's an excuse to pour lots of state funding into your high-tech industries, which gives you more competitive terrestial technology as a spin-off. In other words, this is probably more about kick-starting the Asian airliner industry than about photos of Indians eating poppadums in a crater.
Virtually serving coffee
In Soviet Russia, rocket launches YOU !!
He was very clear about bringing them back again. The closest they get to that in this story is "The voyage to the moon will mean a mission of longer duration."
Maybe this is a new way to help with overcrowding?
Me, I'm just damn glad that in the unlikely event I get to go there in my lifetime (well, it won't be after) I'll be able to get a decent takeaway. Yummee.
I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
NASA's planed return to the moon is 2018. A few bad schedule slips at NASA could see Americans following Indians back to the moon. Both sides get bonus points for an Indian American on either mission.
The world will not get better through technology. We must seek to be better people.
Bull shit...come and see our command control center in India....u will be baffled. Don't underestimate India...we did nuclear explosions right under your eyes, very close to ur ally in war on terrorism and u guys were not able to figure it out...India is going to beat rest of world in technology...we soon
... for all the under-nourished poverty stricken millions in India who could have benefited from all the money that is being wasted on a space program.
Good luck to them and all, But they have bigger problems they they should be pouring money in to.
God Be Gone
China is already making good headway in the market for small to medium sized turboprop airliners and transports so quite frankly my money is on the Chinese in that particular race. Their aviation industry is more mature than that of India and has proven it self to be able to tackle more sophisticated projects. The same goes for the Russians. Strangely enough, while they took large chunks of the automobile and shipping markets by storm, neither the Japanese nor the Koreans seem especially interested in competing on the medium to top end of the jet airliner market.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
I've been in India for about a year now. These guys have horrible infrastructure: bad roads, horrible mass transport, not to mention spotty internet. Their education system is pathetic. Any task that involves the government (ie starting a business, importing something for use in a business) takes forever (despite all the bribes given). Yet these idiots are trying to put a man on the moon. Fix the basics first WTF are they doing? The people here are obsessed with copying America and Americans. The problem is that in 1969 America was pretty much set, there were not people killing each other in the country (Naxalites vs the Government), there was no "communist" part in power anywhere (the government right now is actually a colation government in which there is the moderate Congress Party and the leftist Communist party sharing power). In addition to all that why are they sending a person to the moon? Set up a new Hubble telescope or something. Sending someone to the moon is rather pointless, it won't achieve anything whereas a new hubble would maybe expand our knowledge of the universe.
Its time to put the indian moonwalk to the test http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/57411/Indian_V ersion_Of_Thriller.html
Just like Chinese, Indians can save on the return trip.
because there are things that no amount of money will solve.
The same problem exists in many developed countries. There are just people who either don't want the help or cannot be helped. There are many people in the US who we classify as being below the poverty line that are happy and content with their lives. The problem is that we assign our standards of happiness to them and cannot contemplate how they can be in a state other than misery.
India suffers further complications because of class differences that are more important to their society than ours. They also have logistics, religious, and other issues. Sure the money could be used to try and fix these problems but money cannot buy the time needed. Only so much can be spent before your wasting it. A moonshot helps all of Inida, both directly and indirectly. It gives hope. If India can land people on the moon then people can see that yes, one day their children's lives will be better because what they see as an impossible situation really isn't. After all, landing on the moon certainly looked impossible but India will do it.
To all the people making snide remarks about feeding their people first, skip your lattes and such and donate yourself. Why ask others to do what you will not?
oh, thats right, its far easier to assign guilt than to acknowledge it
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
"Next project: indoor plumbing" -Jay Leno
Hi, I dont have a slashdot account here....
Agreed. That India has a lot of work to do...But for its GDP, India puts a lot of money into research regarding Science (specially Mathematics and Physics)
(PS: I am Indian)......
Regards,
Primordial Soup
A Space Indian is crying.
I agree that most of the problems you point to do exist and there are in fact much more. But every once in a while, a nation needs an inspirational moment where all these disparate masses you point to will sit shoulder to shoulder and feel proud that one of them is up there. Maybe it will also put things in perspective. Its not always about picking an unsolved problem - it is only about feeling that if we put our minds and work hard towards it, no problem is unsurmountable. That would include seemingly distant pipe dreams like eradication of poverty, corruption and improvement of healthcare. Neither is it too technologically challenging nor is it prohibitively expensive - if I disagree with one thing, 2020 is way too much time for it.
Sorry, wrong Indian.
The class system mention is an understatement, the current caste system as it exists in India is coming under greater and greater strain.
Take for example the Dalits who're essentially a slave caste in all but name.
This is why a lot of Indians are in poverty, not because they won't help themselves or don't want help but because of extreme prejudice against them. There is a growing growing Christian and Buddhist movement in the country, of people who're throwing away the shackles of the caste Hindu Dalit system and converting. Read this BBC story for an example.
Being an American of Indian descent who has spent time in India, I can assure you that this will never happen. India's infrastructure (electricity, roads, communications, etc.) is horrible, and the country refuses to adopt modern methods to improve its vast problems. For example, if a road needs to be build here in the US, the Dept. of Transportation (at whatever appropriate level of government) will assemble a crew of professionals that use modern road-making machinery and techniques. In India, because they wish to appease peasant laborers, only manual labor can be used. The same road that would take two weeks to build here would take over a year in India. Only the simplest of machinery would be allowed, with all the other work coming from unskilled day laborers using shovels and hand tools. The end result is a road that will only last 5 years at best, is not level and doesn't drain water, and took almost a year to build. This is the sad reality, and with the exception of the newest high-tech areas like Bangalore, this is the way projects are tackled in all of India, and it isn't going to change anytime soon. An Indian on the moon? Forget about feasability, I can't even imagine all the people that would need to be bribed to get the project off paper. EVERYTHING in India requires bribes, especially police and bureacrats.
I half agree with you.
Given most of a rockets loaf is fuel then life support, there isn't a lot of room for cash so where does the money go?
Ah to all the workers on the ground, the contractors and companies supporting the space program. Who also pay tax.
Who will need roads, labs, reliable power, schools to get educated in, homes for their families and so on.
It won't "trickle down" or "lift all boats" necesarily but a viable space program might be a good investment for India (or any country) in 15 to 20 years, and the ancillary benefits should be good.
The Singularity is closer than you think
Quant
When you take into account that India's population is over 1 000 000 000, the answer is obvious...
They must have run out of space for call centres.
Slashdot is powered by your submission.
India has one of the world's largest gaps between the richest and the poor.
And the USA is a very rich country in which many people can't get medical treatment because they can't afford it. As my grandma used to say - sort your own house out before criticising others. According to your logic, the USA should divert funding from NASA to national health programmes.
I've travelled in India and I find the homeless on the street in many big cities in the USA more of a disgrace than those in India. The USA is rich.
Yea, there is famine occasionally in parts of india, from what i know.
And each monsoon season, many people die due to lacking infrastructure.
Shouldnt they better fix these first with the money rather then spending it landing a man on the moon ?
Read radical news here
Oh, that is the biggest crock of BS that I've ever read here. The poor are content? Gimmie a break! Sure, they're fine with not being able to afford air conditioning, a car, decent health care, etc... NOT!
You have to be one of the elite to say that. You will realize how content they are when they are on your doorstep with every edged weapon you can imagine, and maybe even guns, to take what they should have had access to all along. And, the sooner the better. There's no excuse for people starving in the 21st century in a country whose government is planning a moon shot.
So what exactly is the problem with a "communist" part in power if the people elected them?
That's like saying "The War on Poverty worked".
Developing, building and selling airliners is linked heavily to other activities, in another words companies like example Boeing and Airbus doesn't just build airlines, they are involved in much more activity. Boeing is the second largest defense contractor to US army. Airbus is subsidiary of EADS (European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company) which is a large defence and armaments company supplying many European armies. Also both Boeing and Airbus get government subsidies in a form or another. Boeing gets big contracts from US army and works very tightly with NASA. Airbus also gets subsidies in form of a "launch aids" and other government involvement.
It should also be noted that South Korea and Japan in economic terms are quite small compared to United States or European Union, they just don't have muscle enough to set up a support systems to make building airliners economically feasible. Also it should be noted that both South Korea and Japan are allied with US, so it would be politically risky to start building a competitive industry to a industry that US sees as a strategic as. Airline, space and armaments industries are heavily strategic industries in the eyes of world powers. In that perspective both India and China will one day build up their own airliner industries to compete with Europeans and Americans.
Survey research tool for commercial and scientific use
I read some of the comments
- How the money needed to fund this project could be better used for other things like eradication of poverty, better infrastructure etc.
- Some sly comments on corner side stores
- etc.
All I can say is, as a soverign country, with a govt elected by a democratic process, India is entitled to its opinion on all self sponsored projects. And for people who have not noticed, most facilities that you deem common are often byproducts of funding on defence and scientific projects.
Sending a man to the moon is as pointless an excercise as hosting the olympics. The real payback is that the target motivates people to push harder on all fronts, develop a sense of pride, develop better infrastructure, create a consumer market bouying the economy, make more children wonder about science/sports etc. These things are often intangible, but more useful in the long run than those guided missiles you gurantee can destory the world, but cant deploy, since they will take you out as well!
Stop trivializing everything and you may find the world is doing ok for itself, with you or inspite of you!
"Thank you, come again!"
Having a US citizen complaining on the government in the biggest democracy in the world is pretty amusing. You have a 2 party system (+1 on China, way to go), both of them extreme right wing by international metrics. And also, the US is the last country that should have an opinion on government spending policy.
Isn't there a more modern motorcycle we could strap a rocket to?
What if it breaks down while up there and they have to call back for tech support?
It just seems hypocrisy to me. Why doesn't US share all its knowledge in high tech dept with other countries. So as to save some world money for the sake of poor in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia etc. Please let MS let the source be out in the open...Let there be no patents..So meds can be given out cheaply to the poor...Never heard all this for a long time....Once more we have American Hypocrisy for Indians....Hey lets get even now...India declared all US patents and products void and you guys can have all call centers back in US....Man u guys are sick
how about you shut the fuck up you useless call center dwelling curry muncher.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
It will have been over half a century since we did it by the time they get around to it. Not much of an accomplishment. This is about as exciting as "The First Indian Made Car!"
Followed shortly by a call-centre
Could you play by the facts? I accept there is poverty, corruption, blah, blah... This is what happens when modernity clashes with culture. look here http://www.scottcarneyonline.com/blog/ for the blog of a wired.com editor who lives in Chennai (aka Madras) and see the truth for yourself.
Do people truly get so inspired by something like this? Moreover, what is the impossible situation of which you speak? People have been to the moon, so that's known to the possible. Is India making a manned mission the thing that is considered impossible? I mean no disrespect, but does the common Indian truly care or even think much about this sort of thing? If I were an Indian, damned if I'd care that my government had this sort of plans. That's just me, yes, but I feel pretty certain that many folks would and do share that sentiment.
Judging by your username I'm guessing that you are Indian. If so, I'm wondering how much international travel you have done. Have you been to places like the USA, Canada, UK, Western Europe, Australia ? If you did go to those places did you actually open your eyes and look around. I ask this because I have been to all those places, and many others, including India ; based on what I saw, I say that to even begin to compare the level of widespread poverty in India to any of the aforementioned places is simply dumb. Even the poorest people in those countries are, in a materialistic context, orders of magnitude richer and comfortable than a very significant section of the Indian population.
Sure, relative levels of poverty and prosperity may indeed be greater on other "developed" countries, but when you are talking about world issues (i.e. internation aid) then you really do need to talk in absolute terms.
It's OK to have dreams and it's OK to step a little ahead to give people inspiration, but a moonshot ? Come on !
Pumping billlions of dollars into a moonshot while you have millions of people without access to clean water is, quite frankly, offensive to me. Yes, I know this is subjective and you could draw parallels in other countries, but you have to draw the line in the sand somewhere, and that's where I've drawn mine.
Walk before you can run. When you can walk, try skipping and hopping and maybe a handstand or a cart-wheel. But right now, trying to fly is a little premature.
Thankyou come again.
Analytic & algebraic topology of locally Euclidean meterization of infinitely differentiable Riemmanian manifold
So long as we get to keep the two we have in town. The last thing I want to do after 6 pints is trek all the way to the moon.
Sorry, couldn't resist...
The more the merrier in terms of getting people into space. The whole idea seems to have stagnated, and a bit of competition from other countries would go a *long* way to kicking off some sort of space race again. After all, the likes of Columbus didn't discover the new continents by dipping their toes in the water and then saying "well that was cool, but I can't be arsed now". If competition from other countries is what's needed to get the US's motivation back up again, so be it.
The fact that the aim of communism - at least according to the communist manifesto - is to overthrow democracy in a revolution. Then the dictatorship that follows (my term - not in the manifesto) tends to become corrupt due to the absolute power which it wields. Of course modern communists don't follow the manifesto - in the words of Deng Xiaoping "to get rich is glorious". Which leaves one wondering what the purpose of modern communism is...
14 years to build the props and set? Sheesh, i'm sure we could give them a hand and lend them ours.
Is spending billions of dollars of tax payers' money to go to the moon the proper role of government?
We didn't land on the moon, the moon landed on us!
Y
Ancient Rome fell when it became decadent and complacent. That's already happened in the West. We sit all day stuffing our faces with junk food, and playing XBox. We're allowing our freedoms to be eroded in a phoney war on terror. More of us vote in reality TV shows than serious political elections. None of us study maths, science or engineering any more. We take Media Studies. We fritter away good money on mobile phone ring tones and animated smileys when millions are hungry or dying of preventable diseases. The are incurable diseases that want for more research spending.
I for one welcome our optimistic, industrious and intellectual Asian overlords.
All his extended family and friends by 2021.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
India has one of the world's largest gaps between the richest and the poor. Literally hundreds of millions of people in the country are starving.
Hardly a problem unique to India, even the richest countries have people who are starving and homeless.
There are oases of IT work in the biggest cities surrounded by people living in shacks who, due to the social and educational systems of the country, have absolutely no chance at upwards mobility.
Is a "trailer" much of an improvement of a "shack"?
World Socialism has always been the stated goal. Communists are socialists, Nazi's were [are] socialists.
Gee... now who should I root for?
Here's a real challenge for India: why not try and bring your untrammeled population growth under control in a reasonable time (say, the next 20 years) before your entire country is "standing room only" and you are completely unable to feed yourselves? Now there's a possibility for -- if not a brighter future -- at least warding off impending disaster. Not nearly as glamorous as a moonshot, no, but infinitely more practical. Perhaps practicality isn't your strongest suit, though
The same problem exists in many developed countries. There are just people who either don't want the help or cannot be helped. There are many people in the US who we classify as being below the poverty line that are happy and content with their lives. The problem is that we assign our standards of happiness to them and cannot contemplate how they can be in a state other than misery.
I'm not sure where to begin here. Yes, we humans are exceedingly good at adapting to extreme conditions imposed on is by our environment. Even in the developed world, where our economic freedom supposedly liberates us from the constraints of poverty, we have millions of people who climb into cars for harrowing, life-threatening hour-long commutes twice a day, every weekday!
Are poor people generally "happy and content with their lives"? Well, sure. But we should not think that, because they've managed to adapt to the circumstances of poverty, that there is anything natural or voluntary about it for the vast majority of them. Many people were able to be happy while suffering under feudalism, slavery, fascism, and apartheid, and there was nothing inevitable about those institutions.
Which is not to say, of course, that every spare penny must be sent to the poor, or the cause of the moment. Buying a latte is a lot different from building a twentieth presidential palace, and investment in "selfish" things -- architecture, the arts, theoretical science research -- can pay off too, in less tangible ways.
Frankly, no one in the above thread has so far suggested that every spare penny be sent to the poor. You're setting up a bit of a straw man with your apparent suggestion that anyone who questions the value of a moon trip is value of "selfish" spending in general (and is a latte-sipping hypocrite for good measure).
One of the reasons behind the moon missions is to develop a strong space program using as much indegeniously developed technologies as possible. There are civilian(communication sattelites, remote sensing sattelite, etc) as well as military(read ICBMs) offshoots to this program. Because these programs emphasize on using indegeniously developed technology, it suppors a lot of ancillary units providing employment to many. The sattelite launching vehicals are extremely advanced providing launch capabilities at nearly 30% cheaper rates then compitition. The mission is estimated to cost the equivalent of USD 83 Million (http://www.digi-help.com/space/chandrayaan-1-moon -mission.asp). Sure, a large chunk of this would be from government funding, but ISRO also launches sattelites commercially, and I suppose this will compliment the funding received from the government.
Why do you need a space program when there are many who dont get food? Has the Indian govt got its priorities wrong ? Not necessarily. Most of the commenters above have taken a very narrow view of the moon project. Its like asking why do you need to spend millions on developing super computing technologies (PARAM) when there are many who don't get food ? Well because, the cost of a new PARAM is less that the annual maintainence of the Cray imported from the US. Not to mention, the locally developed system was 3 times faster (than the one it was supposed to replace). I dont see why the two programs cannot go hand in hand. One need not come at the cost of the other. We need the remote sensing sattelites to identify the countries natural resources. We need the sattelites to map the geography of the contry to create better infrastructure (roads, railways, etc). We need the sattelites to improve the communication system between remote villages and we need the ICMB's to make sure that we done end up as Iraq/Afghanistan. India was ruled by Britain for over 200 years, and we have learned from the past how important it is to have a strong defence system. It would be stupid to stop spending on programs that take to country forward and wait until all other issues have been sorted out first.
Yes, not everything is right about this country, but is it wrong in the decision it has taken ? I dont think so.
Ans as already noted, just for the record its NOT billions. Not even one billion actually.
Glossary:
yaar: Punjabi for friend.
cogging: copying/imitating/aping. IIT Madras slang
benami: Owning property in the name of a trusted flunky
big big: Repeated adjectives to replace the adverb very is a common Indianism.
junta : (the j is j not h) Hindi for public/people/populance
I am thinking: Use of continuous present tense where simple present is appropriate is another very common Indianism.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Hi Friends,
Request some urgent help with this matter.
Am on moon, and I would like to know the procedure in getting back to Earth. I have been landed rocketship, how can i do. Please somebody can help me with my condition?
Please kindly advice.
Rashpal
You just got troll'd!
Comrade, we live in a capitalist hell where much of that high-tech knowledge is owned by individuals, companies and other NGOs. Unfortunately, the government is generally reluctant to simply give away knowledge that doesn't actually belong to it. This same silly thinking is what stops Pope Tony Blair from nationalising every single industry in the UK or printing more money so that everyone in the UK can be a millionaire.
Regards the propsals for scrapping patents, cheap meds and MS, this quote probably applies.
"There is always an easy solution to every human problem - neat, plausible, and wrong."
The problems in this world are not quickly solved by just giving stuff away or forcing companies to do the same. They are resolved by sensible discussion
-- Using the preview button since 2005
Orbit!
Why dont they just team up with China who are planning a moon walker sooner? And Indian and Chinese can do it at the same time. Better yet get both nations to team up with NASA and perhaps they could do it around 2010?
Better yet, forget about moon walks, orbits etc and team up with NASA and a host of other nations and help the human race advance as one!
Giving IE users a taste of their own medicine since 2005 - http://pods.-is-a-geek.net/
Bad priorities.
...the cowboys got there first.
Are you talking real measureable stats in terms of income distribution? The reason I'm asking is I'm wondering if you actually did some reading about India, or if you're one of those international travellers who land in Delhi and start shrieking "Ooooh my god, these cow-worshippers; why aren't they more like us?"
If you're of the former type, then I'd like you to be more rigorous in your assertion. My reading tells me that we've just turned the corner in terms of BPL households; I've read -and this is a freely available stat, google it up - that the largest agglomeration of poverty in human history was in 1991, and that, given the way both China and India are growing, it is unlikely that we'll ever again have 300 million people in one place, living in such abject poverty. I'm told that the
If you're of the latter type, just to say this; we love you guys. We love the way you hate us, we love the way you like being condescending on us brown folk, we love the fact that you think you're brilliant enough to dictate policy for the largest democracy this planet has ever seen.
Otoh, if you were just trying to provoke an indignant response from folks like me, ahh well, IHBT. IHL. I don't care; I'm waiting for a build to finish, I could do with some verbal sparring.
You know, I consider myself one of those pragmatic folks who's mostly beyond mere nationalistic loyalty and would like to think about policy through a purely rational perspective. The problem with responses like yours is that you tend to look at everything in black and white terms, ignoring the real shades of gray that reality encompasses. I could go at length on medical, and drug, policy (and I have, on multiple occassions here on Slashdot), but I'll just limit myself to pointing this out: in 1940's, when we got independent, life expectancy was 41 years. Now, it is 76 years (or thereabouts). For a system that's an _abject_ failure, that's some result, you'd think.
I've recently read, mostly as a part of the reading packet I alluded to earlier, that the house in which my grandparents used to live is actually located in an area officially designated as a 'slum'. Always knew the area wasn't really posh - Grandpa was a lowly village headmaster, he really couldn't afford those fancy bungalows - so to see it being designated as a 'slum' was, well, more amusing than surprising.
Funny thing eh, that I've turned to tech for a living.
And oh. You should hear what they did to Grandpa's house after we sold it. They demolished the old house, a three-room-dwelling with tiled roofs and wooden support, and built a cookie-cutter, stalin-isque office-like building. Yes that's right; they built an IT-training center in that very spot.
Yeah, did you hear that all of the national budget will be siphoned off into sending people to the Moon?
How wise of you to decide our technological challenges for us, and how gratifying that we've got you to call us stupid. So going to space is a solved problem for mankind that doesn't need more impetus or thought? An American astronaut, Kalpana Chawla would agree with you. No wait
More than mere navel gazing.
On the other hand - every year thousands of Americans die needlessly due to illnesses caused by smoking, alcohol, drugs, and poor nutrition (more often obesity than starvation). Shouldn't the US Government better fix these first with their money before spending on its space programme?
I'm not American. I live in a small country with a lot of parties. I find your statement ridiculous.
Yes, the US has a weird system with winner-takes-all constituencies and the president is elected half directly, and they end up with just two parties. In India, a lot of representatives are indirectly elected, including the president, and some are even appointed. Politicians and election officials are corrupt.
And about the number of parties: they get their votes based on nationalism and religious convictions. Some of the bigger parties have an awful program. I almost wrote pogrom there. If they're not going to nuke Pakistan, it's either because of fear or complete ineptitude.
No, India is not a model democracy. And criticizing the US isn't going to make it more democratic.
Ugh!
Let's say that it's not the most efficient way of redistributing wealth. You can copy all technology you want, like other countries have done, and get your jump ahead a lot cheaper and faster.
Having your own moon program is just ambition, to show that you're there with the rest of them. Well, the Americans to be more specific. You just want to be more American than the Americans, as one in every two Bollywood movies shows...
I for one welcome our optimistic, industrious and intellectual Asian overlords.
I don't buy that for a second, Asia has given the world more horror, autocracy, repression, and bloody minded bad government throughout history than the West could ever dream of doing. Our masses may be decadent and allowing our government to become more secretive and authoritarian, but I don't believe for a second that Asian culture is ever going to embrace concepts of liberty or respect for the individual.
Of course the USA had perfected society, democracy, health care, and all other ills and was sitting around twiddling its thumbs so it thought - "We've done everything here, lets go to the moon". Come on, 1960's America, segregation, poverty, hundreds of billions going into defence spending and Russia puts up Sputnik - America just has to beat that.
There is just no way that spening the space budget on poverty or infrastructure would make any long term difference. India is out to become a major player on the world stage, from that will come (hopefully) the other things.
Is it true that NASA spent millions developing a zero-g pen, and when they got up to Sky Lab they found that the Russians were using pencils? May be this isn't going to cost as much as a NASA style programme.
Art is the mathematics of emotion
The USA has horrible infrastrucure, bad roads, horrible mass transit, no universal health care, high unemployment, etc. - yet these idiots DID put a man on the moon. Not sure what the lession hee is.
>>It's OK to have dreams and it's OK to step a little ahead to give people inspiration, but a moonshot ? Come on !...
--
Mmm, in my youth, when the US moon program was announced on the radio,
there was still a caste in the US, who had to sit on the back of the buses.
They also couldn't vote freely and yet, they had a dream.
It was not a dream about a moonshot though.
Come on India! You can do it! The best of luck to you!!
I think as soon as more countries start getting into space, then there will be a bigger push internationally for space exploration. Then, just maybe then, we can see the world as a round planet, with no East and West, but just as a home, for the human race, united as one. If you want to end hunger then universal peace might be a way forward.
Even this guy knows that.
The US is pursuing specific plans to get back to the moon that include a hydrogen fueled heavy lift vehicle a crew exploration vehicle and a lunar lander. Details like this are completely missing from Russian, Chinese, and Indian press releases on their space programs.
an ill wind that blows no good
Your argument is a fallacy... In India people die because they do not have food to eat... It is involuntary.
All those problems you listed in the US however are voluntary, you CHOOSE to smoke/drink/eat a lot... Heck that fact that anyone in america can become obese says a lot... And the US is a free country buddy, I don't smoke or drink and I am very fit, however I would be pissed as hell if the government told me I didn't have the choice to smoke/drink/pig out.
"See you space Indian..."
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
Reminded me of the old joke of Tenzing and Hillary climbing Everest to find a Mr. Hare Ram Patel running a Quickie Mart.
:-) As someone said, "Indians are like sand, they get everywhere..."
Don't mean this as a racist joke.... Indians are just fantastic entrepreneurs...
I remember back-packing thru Libya only to find myself eating Chicken-Tikka-Masala at the remote oasis of Jughbub. Turned out the family running the place were descendants of an Indian soldier from Ludhiana who fought the Germans (Rommel et al) under the British flag....
Maybe you should read your own sig, buddy.
> Pumping billlions of dollars into a moonshot while you have millions of people without access to clean water is, quite frankly, offensive to me.
Nice troll. Do you pay taxes in India? If you do, speak to your MP. If you don't, I'm sure Indians don't really gives a flying fuck about whether this offends you.
India's problems are systemic and will not change with massive infusions of money (as Africa is finding out -- all that aid money does not equal prosperity), it will require a change in mindset (as happened in portions of urban India in the 1990s, because of which they're able to enjoy 8% growth rates today). BHAGs like moon missions do help instill confidence in a population: one can easily argue things like moon missions will further the cause of encourage science and technology in a land whose primarily problems where physical problems (like clean water) are actually dwarfed by mental ones (superstition, illiteracy and ignorance).
Go somewhere random
I have to admit this is a shrewd marketing move by the Indians. If this succeeds, it will put the world's eyes on the sub-continent. It will do well to further reinforce India's image as a technology leader.
Everywhere I travel, people already speak-of India's software prowess. If this really goes forward it will establish India as a leader in aerospace, mechanical and electrical engineering... However that is a big 'if'... Not that I doubt the collective brain power in the country. Right now, the President of India is a PhD in Rocket Science (he ran the space research program at ISRO (the indian equivalent of NASA) and the Prime Minister is an economist from Cambridge. Together, you have a couple of Brainiacs in charge. This seems to be exactly the kind of things a couple of PhD's would dream about... (Reminds me of that episode of Simpsons where they put John Frink and Skinner in charge...!). Anyway, given the back stabbing that is Indian politics, such outstanding individuals at the helm should not last very long. Once they are gone, so goes the dream....
Great, more American and European jobs to shift to Bangalore and Hyderabad!
involves having the entire population standing on everyone's shoulders, the cheaper space elevator.... its only by 2020 that the population will be large enough
NASA seems to be interested in sending their payload on the mission. Also http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.p l?file=2006051307181100.htm&date=2006/05/13/&prd=t h&
Read current science article for scientific need and international collaboration (there seem to be countries other than US, Russia, and iRaq) on unmanned mission.
Most points on the debate (poverty, public (though not scientific) infrastructure) have all been beaten to death for the unmanned mission itself. Stop being cynical and think of something interesting.
Yours truly,
a fellow snake charmer.
Last I knew the United States owned the moon as we performed mankinds version of a dog pissing to mark its territory by planting a flag on its surface. I just hope the designated Indian has his passport readily available with his customs declaration forms filled out. Thank you, and welcome to America.
Yes - thats an excellent point - you cannot discount the commercial benefits of the capability of launching and putting an object on orbit. The space race may have been won by the US and Russia -but space is still good business. India pays a lot to the French when we want to launch a weather / telecom satellite - we could not only save on that, but also provide cost effective options for other 3rd world countries to put their own satellites in orbit. Not that a man on the moon is necessary for this - but it is a good goal for ISRO to work towards and show case India's capabilities beyond doubt.
And even if America and Europe don't play ball (which is depressingly likely on past form), I'm sure the Russians will be willing to hand over as much technology as the Indians don't feel like reinventing.
You really don't keep up with current events, do you? The Russians won't hand over anything. Everything has a price when it comes from Mother Russia and nothing is free. However, I am sure that they will offer favorable terms to their Indian friends (they've been nominal allies for a very long time), but it certainly won't be "given away".
Sure, relative levels of poverty and prosperity may indeed be greater on other "developed" countries, but when you are talking about world issues (i.e. internation aid) then you really do need to talk in absolute terms.
Absolutely not. One should not talk in absolute terms. People can do a lot of things in 1$ in India than in other, so called, "developed" countries. What the definition of poverty is not how much money you are getting in absolute terms, rather, how well you can manage your life with the money you are earning. Open your eyes and think a bit rather than going here and there with empty mind. By the way, I am an Indian and you don't need to guess who is replying your message.
The lesson is you don't know what you are talking about.
Maryland State Motto: If you can dream it, we can tax it.
Who cares? I don't.
Wait! Why assume that being without an X-Box, internet, transfats, high fructose corn syrup, TV, a "high" paying job (etc, etc) makes your life poor? I hate this idea of impressing our own beliefs on others...its just ridiculous and self serving.
I grew up on a farm where my family would have easily been considered poor by city folk standards. I now work in software development where I make a ton of money, can go on vacation anywhere in the world, own two houses, new cars, can buy all of the latest anything I want and all the food to go with it. So what does that bring me? Stress, poor health, no time to enjoy my loot, always under attack by those who think I have too much (like I didn't earn it or something)...and the biggest kicker...I daydream daily about being back on the farm and "poor." Life was so much more rewarding when I was "poor." The happiest people I know are "poor".
The moral of the story is "cram that latte up you're a$$ before you even think about imposing your "better" lifestyle". Let the Indians all enjoy a great accomplishment that will no doubt transcend all.
I for one relish the idea of one day enjoying a hot Dunkaccino on the dark side of the moon, if you will. As with all Dunkin' Donuts coffee they are 100% Crustaceans-Free, which is a point of pride ask any employee and she will say. "You maybe feeling crabby, but enjoy our hot coffee it's crab-free!" Dirty
"A keyboard?! How Quaint!"
Ok, you haven't seen India, what is considered "horrible" in America, is amazing here. I'm talking about not even having pot holes (having a pot hole implies having a paved road). The only thing that is "acceptable" here is mass transit, and even that is if you are in the higher classes (ie if you are travelling in first class on the train). The normal (read: economy) class consists of sitting in a place with the floor covered in blood and tobbacco (the common habit here is to chew tobbacco and spit anywhere, hence you have a mix of tobbacco, spit, and blood that comes from their cut gums). As for health care, it doesn't exist, neither do HMOs, PPOs, or anything else. You have to get an operation, borrow from your neighbor. Despite all this, you missed my point - America took care of the rest of the stuff rather well (relatively speaking, people had a 'decent' standard of living) then they pursued putting a man on the moon. I'm saying that India needs to take care of their corruption, infrastructure, etc. before spending the money to put a man on the moon. The question is not if they can do it (anyone can theoretically, all you need is money and some management), but rather if it is worth doing it.
how most posts are people using this as some kind of opportunity to make ethnic/racial stereotype jokes. racism for nerds, bigotry that matters.
Well, for the most part I meant my post to be funny (although I would put the floor of the 51C bus in Pittsburgh up against the blood and tobacco in Indian trains any day). Regarding health care, though, more and more Americans are going to India (thats right, India) for surgical procedcures because the health care is so much more affordable there. A $100,000 operation in the US would cost less then $10K in India.
"A lead Indian astronaut and his 50 backup astronauts to dance with female astronaut and her 50 backup astronauts on moon by 2020"
India doesn't have the heavy-lift rocket capability right now and it is unlikely they will develop it on thier own within 13 years. Of course they could contract out to the Russians but that doesn't really fufill the nationalistic drive to do it yourself.
Not to mention develop the skillsets and the hardware to land and return.
Besides that, Indian aerospace programs have had a really hard time keeping up with thier schedules, for example the HAL Tejas has taken much longer to develop that planned for.
Most Indians don't pay taxes, its too easy to get out of them. It true that there needs to be a change of mindset, but isn't it possible to pump some money into intelligent campaigns to help speed up this change, instead of creating opportunites for some mega conglomerate to increase the income disparity. Right now it seems almost impossible to fix the rampant corruption in India, fix that and the future is much brighter for all of India, rather than creating some motivation for someone who actually understands what it takes to get on the moon. Do you actually think that some rickshaw puller knows what the distance is to the moon, or gives a flying fuck about some random Indian guy landing there?
Ya it is cheaper, much cheaper (for example a doctor's visit to a well renowned doctor will cost 500 Rupees, thats like $10). But its cheaper of Americans, not for Indians. That is a decent chunk of change for most people in the country. Doctors get paid jack compared to the docs in America, but then the cost of living is cheaper here so it all works out.
This may come to bring new Definition to the words Out Sourcing.
.... breaking Burt Munro's previous record by approximately 39,000 km/h!
Forget sending Indians to the Moon. Just shoot them into the sun.
The average Slashdot response to this news is quite ridiculous, though not unexpected. There are of course the usual call-center jokes...for those irked by Indian call centers...it is US-based companies that try to cut costs by out-sourcing to India...nobody is compelling them to. Why not target them instead!
As for the merits and de-merits of India sending a human to the moon: agreed that there are a number of socio-economic problems that India still needs to resolve; but that does not mean that India should give up on all scientific advancement till that is done. A nation's progress is not some sequential one at a time thing, and, as some posters have mentioned, the direct or indirect benefits of technological progress eventually do percolate to the masses. They also add to a nation's self-esteem.
People who are poking fun right now should realize that once upon a time many-a-person would have laughed at the idea of India launching a satellite...but for some years now, India has been sending satellite s up to polar orbits (and yes, these satellites provide benefits to the masses).
The insistence that developing countries should not attempt ambitious projects is just some sort of neo-imperialist concept!
All the jokes about call centers and slurpee machines on the moon aside, this "promise" by the Indian government says something for that generation of American engineers working in the 60s. With little of the know-how or technology available, those folks went from politician soundbite to one giant step in less than a decade. If the Indians start today, they're promising to take 14 years. Any of originals still alive will be celebrating the 51st anniversary! Simply amazing.
When European kingdoms decided to explore the Oceans, the domestic situation was even worst.
I hope they will succeed. the USA, Russia and Europe are sleeping. Some strong competitions in the space are required to see some innovations.
Once they have reached the moon it will extremely difficult to explain why a village remains inaccessible by car anyway.
I want to see a man walking on the moon and on mars. An Indian, so be it. I want to see it in my lifetime.
As others have said, this applies to other countries too - but what is it so special about space travel that people always wheel out this "Won't somebody think of the poor!" argument? There are many things which Governments spend money on which don't help the poor, and in some cases the money spent is far greater than that spent on space exploration - why don't people use this criticism against spending on the military, for example?
And yeah, it's been done before. You think it's good to just send a few men out in space once and then say "Someone's already done that, let's not bother anymore"?
Ah good old racism, it never gets old eh...
That's good, because they're probably going to need a Kwik-E-Mart up there.
No.
You've gotta be kidding, right?
Yes. Going to the moon is next on the list of fun things to do.
List of Fun Things to Do. by:GWB
1. War!
2. Have one friend shoot another friend in the face.
3. Send someone to the moon.
We are all just people.
"One a these days, Aishwarya, on a these days....bang! zoom! - to the moon!"
-----
Sorry, I'm only a 1336 h4x0r.
Next think you know, the US, China, Russia, and India are going to be staking claims on the moon.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
Landing a man on the moon is like a right of passage for a country. Climbing to space, seducing Luna, finally getting to touch down. "Popping her cherry", if you will. You are not a grown country if you don't score with the moon at least once.
Thank-you. Come again!
As opposed to the squeaky clean politics in the US. yeah right! India has a per capita income of ~$3500. At that level of development it's democracy is quite a achievement. I don't need to know from which country you are from but I am sure you didn't even allow women and minorities to vote in your elections at that level of development. Forget about electing them to the highest office in the country.
... because the head of Dell's support has just been informed that all that 'lunar land' he bought from the ads in the back of the Fortean Times isn't really legal.
I can't believe this we are now outsourcing space travel.
In Soviet Russia, moon lands on you!
The Chinese have a similar time table, but arent pushing it too fast. They have a manned launch every 2-3 years, two so far. The US space program averaged about three per year during the sixties race and shuttle heyday.
The reason I heard is that the Chinese central R&D program is not very large. Their space program falls under the military.
In other news, big chief asks: "HOW?"
Flamebait? It's the cold hard light of reality. The government of an impoverished nation like India has zero business developing an indigenous space program. Participate in the ISS, space shuttle ride, satellites, FINE. A space program would pump lots of money into the economy, but the collective production is minimal. The kind of money that it would take to send a man to the moon could build massive desalination plants, generate cheaper power, provide public transportation, REDUCE TAXES, or a multitude of other projects to improve the economy. I would have a HUGE problem with this if I were an indian taxpayer.
People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.
both of them extreme right wing by international metrics.
Please someone mod this -1, Shameless Troll
the US is the last country that should have an opinion on government spending policy.
It's not a country who spoke up, it was a person. Persons have the right to have opinions, they don't need to earn/deserve that right.
You just got troll'd!
Freeze-dried Indian Food? Oh man...hopefully those $80,000 toilets work well...
Saving the World: One Drink at a Time
"Thiruvananthapuram, we are having a problem!"
Colonizing space will require convenience stores. I'm looking forward to the first Lunar Slushie.
When will they make the movie: "The world's farthest Indian"
(most) Americans seem totally America obsessed, there is more in this world than just the USofA
India is ususally more concerned with local politics,
that is they are dealing with countries like Pakistan and China
they feel ususally threatened by China as does any other country over there, china being an expansionist power on their borders. Also they want to compete with china on equal footing. like with the nbr of people within their borders and likewise on the spacerace front..
The race to build the first lunar Kwiki Mart!
We have too though. It's called MySpace.
spoonerize "magic trackpad"
Ok, they have a plan for getting someone to the moon. Do they have a plan for getting them back to Earth?
(Not like anyone's going to read this...)
Slashdot needs a new subject icon for these Indian Insecurity stories. They have no more chance of putting a man on the moon than they do of actually providing quality software.
India's continuing space program is part of nuclear weapons proliferation and an escalation of the local arms race. The United States cannot be helpful to the Indians' space program, and at the same time truly try to reduce the chance of a nuclear exchange.
One of the most important efforts to stop nuclear exchanges has been the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NNPT). In the NNPT the nuclear weapons powers (US, USSR, France, UK, China) made a bargain with the non-weapons states: don't work on nuclear weapons and we will help you out with peaceful nuclear technology; otherwise, you will be isolated in various ways.
Since the more recent Indian nuclear test in 1994 the US has not lived up to its obligations to isolate India (and Pakistan, and Israel). Each such act weakens the NNPT regime and leads to proliferation.
The Indian space program is just a piece of their ballistic missile program, and may contribute to a further arms race in second-tier world military powers (e.g. Pakistan, Brazil, Japan). It might also slow efforts in the UK and France to do away with their nuclear stockpiles. Any help the US gave India would just make it worse by adding directly to India's build-up and indirectly through weakening the ideas behind the NNPT.
Indian outsourcing.
I was about to post the same thing.
India needs to face the truth here.
There needs to be some world pressure on them to stop that and instead better their economy.
I am still waiting to see "Jews in space!!!"
When the "digital revolution", so to speak, was in the air in the 1990's, I read an article about someone who won a school "computer competetion". One of the questions asked was "why do computing and develop advanced technology, why not help the poor?"
With the growth of IT in India, the answer is pretty obvious today.
As is typical - Slashdot leaps before it reads.
This isn't a plan by 'India' - it's a pipe dream (and an unfunded one at that) by the head of the Indian equivalent of NASA. Move along folks, nothing to see here.
I'm not making a snide remark. Furthermore, my original message, while sharp, was personal-attack free. Yours was not. I see that you have trouble arguing this on the merits. That's the sign of a weak argument.
If the poor are content, why did they vote out the rich, elitist Indian government in the last election--something that was a surprise to the elite classes? Could it be that you, like those people who were voted out, were out of touch and didn't see that they were NOT content with the poverty and disease around them? How obnoxiously presumptuous of you.
If you're doing this for symbolic, hopeful reasons, there are FAR better things to do. For example, India could do something that HASN'T BEEN DONE BEFORE so that its symbol isn't one of an also-ran.
As for the "skip your lattes and donate yourself" charge, how dare you assume that I don't already. I'm not exactly doing that well financially, yet I put my money where my mouth is and donate in small and large ways on a very regular basis.
I have every right to assign guilt, and I am doing so. Do not call me a hypocrite.
Do they plan on using a rocket or by 2020 will their population have grown so large they'll be able to make a human pyramid and climb to the moon?
If they can't manage something as simple as birth control, seems unlikely they'll master rocket science in the next 13 years.
Do they care? That's an easy one: no.
More inspiring is roads that work, doctors that do what they're paid to do, a life free from discrimination, and food for oneself and one's children.
A tall order? Yes. But India keep trying to assert itself as a world-leading country, yet fails to provide anywhere near the level of social support that other industrialized countries do. The poor are simply ignored, and I feel it's important to provide a counterpoint to the rah-rah-India-progress! propaganda to show that the country has yet to set its priorities in a truly just way.
For the simple-minded, this is not a racial or ethnic attack. There are many, many Indian citizens who are doing the right things, and I am clearly NOT referring to people outside the country. I'd even venture to say that had it not been for previous generations in the US (my country), we'd probably be neglecting the poor even worse than we are today. My argument is strictly about the greed of the upper and ruling classes in India.
> Nice troll. Do you pay taxes in India? If you do, speak to your MP. If you don't, I'm sure Indians don't really gives a flying fuck about whether this offends you.
As I'm sure some of your MPs have said in defending the flow of outsourcing to India, globalization is spreading ideas all over the world. That means that your MP ought to give a flying fuck, for when I'm next in charge of outsourcing a project, it surely won't be going to India unless its social and physical infrastructure is improved.
I assure you, repeating something that already has been done instills confidence in no one. Correction: it instills confidence in the people accepting the bribes for this sham make-work project. That's about it though.
...they can't just study and get a NCMT (NASA-Certified Moon Traveller) certification, they'll actually have to build a rocket and everything?
I agree. I'm ashamed of the medical system in the US. I want things to change here too. I'm doing what I can as an average person, and I hope others are as well.
Thanks for a well-argued response. I want to look up the articles I read and put them here, but I don't have time right now. The most recent articles I read about the health care system were one article in the Economist and another in the NY Times in the last year. If you know the ones I'm referring too, great; otherwise, I'll be back later to post the links after I dig them up. My original response does not acknowledge the vast progress made in India in the last hundred years, but it should have. That said, clearly more needs to be done.
I'll sum-up my point about 'pick something else besides the moon' this way: George Bush is declaring a 'mars mission' that I consider to be equally stupid (if not moreso) than the Indian moon 'mission.' If you want to pick something truly inspiring, think bigger than the moon. Go for a truly robust space station, or terraforming to pre-empt global warming related issues, or work on a replacement for fossil fuels. Send up a series of space telescopes of heretofore unimaginable resolution, and link them to a space station. Cure AIDS. Build a really great reusable spacecraft, and figure out how to get many, many people into space.
You get the idea. There are loads of really inspiring ideas that haven't been done before. Pick one of those. Actually be inspiring. [please note: I make this charge to my own government too].
I wheel that one out for the military too!
I always wonder if it just might be more efficient to drop sacks of cash on countries instead of bombs.
I'm also not saying that space has been done before, so don't bother anymore. I'm saying the moon has been done for the sake of doing it already, so don't do that again. Do REAL space exploration.
one more source of "income" for politicians
I'm not even kidding. Read some history, the deepest depths of human degradation, misery, and autocracy in the West are just business as usual in Asia. Inquisition, imperialism, colonialism, slavery, genocide, racism, intolerance, and every other "ill of the West" are all part of the ancient and continuing tradition in Asia.
The underdogs aren't always the good guys.
Shut the fuck up, paki-lover.
Still waiting for India to offer us those dramatically cheaper software costs they've been promising. Where's the $100 laptop that India said it would have in Walmart by 2004?
See the book Critical Mass (I don't remember the author's name) - I'm pretty sure India has had substantial rocket capacity for awhile, enough to deliver a nuke (or ten, though not on one rocket) to their bestest buddy neighbors, if required.
Space races are sometimes a cover for dual-use missile technology, but all you need for a nuke is a rocket that can get payloads to orbit, and maybe a little bit more - and they already have those. Going to the moon probably won't help their weapons programs, unless the increase in status helps their technological recruiting.
Did an average American care about moon expedition? I dont think so. Then why did they still go ahead with the mission? You guys are jealous that a developing nation is doing it.
Moon Pie!? What a time to be alive.
They'll corner the market in green cheese palak paneer.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
So does America. In fact, the USA's Gini coefficient is almost exactly the same as India's at around 38%.
Doesn't stop America launching space missions.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
> or when I'm next in charge of outsourcing a project, it surely won't be going to India unless its social and physical infrastructure is improved.
/. a wankfest. If you really owned a company and had that kind of decision-making power, you wouldn't care what your outsourcees spend their honestly-earned cash on (and frankly, IMO India spending it on moon missions is a LOT better than China spending it on jailing journalists or building giant Cisco firewalls -- what, you're boycotting Chinese-origin goods too?)
LOL. Now I know why they call
And if you're a middle manager tasked with picking a vendor, I'd kiss your job goodbye the day your bosses learnt your bleeding heart liberal views are affecting business decisions.
And if you're in none of these categories, I suspect India would blow you an air kiss and ask you to piss off, I suspect they wouldn't be very interested in your business. Hell, they aren't very interested in Walmart's business because they think Walmart hurts small shopkeepers (how's that for bleeding heart liberalism), so I think they can safely do without your money.
Go somewhere random
Anyone who doesn't actually get that the two growth powerhouses of the next 20 years will be China and India and understand why investors pump money into *growth* prospects not doing-it-already economies needs to go back to fairly early high-school economics. The posters who say "I am here and the roads are shit so they'll never make it" are the sort of head-in-the-sand neo-colonialist observers that ever underestimated the ability of growth economies on the grounds of well, naivety.
Here's a clue - spot a single investment bank in the world (one of which is my paymaster for my sins) that isn't majoring on "Chindia". Wonder why that is? Or is your cod economic and cultural chalk-drawing more likely to be the case?
I never said there isn't people who live like kings, just the majority lives like shit... Hell, I'm one of the well off ones and I socialize with the others that are well off, that doesn't mean everyone is well off. Thats like going to the Hamptons and saying everyone in America live like that...they don't there, neither is a small sample indicitive of the whole population. I am playing by the facts that are here in front of my eyes.
> Most Indians don't pay taxes, its too easy to get out of them.
Just like all Germans are Nazis and Americans are gun-toting cowboys, right? I mean, those are about as valid as your broad statements about present-day India.
Re taxes: income tax collection -- and tax return filings -- are at record highs. Since a lot of the boom is coming from services (which hand out salaries tax-deductible at source) and manufacturing/software (which pay corporate tax), it's a lot easier to collect taxes and ensure compliance. Also, computerization has meant all this (and handing out refunds) is reasonably quick.
It's true that India had a thriving underground economy in the bad old socialist days. In fact, the underground economy thrived _because_ of the socialism, where throwing money around meant the government would come sniffing. (I am told this still happens in Pakistan.) Today, the government is happy to let Indians spend as much money as they like, as long as they get something in tax. And so folk are buying Louis Vuitton bags and Maseratis: they no longer have to hide their wealth. Today, the mainstream economy offers a higher rate of return than the black economy; it no longer makes sense to hide money and evade tax.
> Right now it seems almost impossible to fix the rampant corruption in India
Your logic is ridiculous. Fixing corruption, you say, is 'almost impossible'. By contrast, going to the moon is hard but possible. So we should discard a hard-but-possible goal for an almost impossible one? Especially when the two don't conflict? By presenting tax-evasion and corruption as alternative challenges to moon-missions, you're painting a classic example of False Dilemma.
Corruption is actually down (albeit only a little) in India. Check out the newest Transparency International Report. That said, if you think spending more money will root out corruption in India, then you're (no way to sugarcoat this) an idiot. Corruption needs systemic fixes because India's public services are managed unprofessionally: there is no accountability and (the flip side) people don't get paid enough. The solution is not to pay the goof-offs more, the solution is to shed staff to a rational level (and maybe train the excess to do other things, India has shortages in many public service areas) and pay people enough to lead a life of dignity. And ensure tough compliance.
Ironically, with all the talk of how 'corruption is inevitable' in India, one frequently misses out that the private sector is largely corruption-free. It's not a coincidence: the government and its braindead style of running things isn't present in the private sector.
Go somewhere random
India this, India that.... Here is an analogy to compare Countries that have potential to do well:
;)
Try choosing one mutual fund over another. One of the aspects you look at is..the historic performance of the fund. so..lets take this example..and compare various countries over a 10,000 year period. You will see that India has had a period of downfall since 400 years ago. However, the history is Intact..Im not going to go any further to elaborate the glorious history of India since I find that redundant in this blog..however..I will point one thing out..I would better be called Anonymous Coward that put my name down on this blog..since many of the folks who are reading that cant pronouce my name..their language doesnt allow them to pronouce "Bha"..sounds more like "Ba" doesnt it?
Final words: Some countries have a loooong history..and rich wisdom...please dont mock them by looking at a span of a few hundred years..because good and bad times shall always come to all.And the numbers tell it all..India is only beginning to realize its Potential.
> for when I'm next in charge of outsourcing a project, it surely won't be going to India unless its social and physical infrastructure is improved.
PS. (and sorry about the double reply) You might want to check out the latest sectoral figures from India (here's a BBC summary): India's 8%+ growth rates aren't coming mainly from "outsourcing". In fact outsourcing is growing more slowly these days (5+% CAGR IIRC) and is expected to plateau. Manufacturing and old-style exports OTOH are growing at 11%. That is the real story that gets missed -- obviously, because in sheer numbers India is a ways behind China still. But the old image of India getting rich mumbling over the telephone is fading fast.
PPS. Are you from the EU? I hope you are, and I hope there are more of you who think the way you do. Because strings-attached capitalism is dead even though the EU can't see it because it controls all in the EU and thinks EU=Universe (which is why there's a good chance you are from the EU). A majority of Americans and a vast majority of Asians would look at you _very_ curiously for dictating how monies earned in an honest sale is spent -- especially when it's spent on a non-military science project. After all, when the US buys EU goods, it doesn't complain about how the money is wasted on the uber-specialized-job mill called Airbus when there are so many skill-less unemployed in gay Paree's rougher arrondissements. Which is why more of you thinking the same thing will quicken the day this bastard political union (as opposed to completely legitimate economic union) goes down.
Go somewhere random
Imagine the fight that would break out if cowboys reach the moon, too!
Currently hooked on AMP
Industry and furthering the economy are the answer to those problems. Both are served by a space programme.
with a population close to 1 billion ?
we have had the same misperception here. industry was pumped up, economy was pumped up, it became a major economy in region and europe (turkey) but situation did not change for around 40 million of the 60 million population.
winners are always the big capital, they dont share the wealth. they do not invest much. even if they do invest the employment they are creating is pitiful compared to a plan that encourages small enterpreneurs. funding a space programme is similar to that - just creates very high value business at the hands of who already have the money and profits them further. it does not distribute wealth.
Read radical news here
Maybe with China, Japan, the US, India, and maybe even Europe dashing for the Moon, there'll be some good impetus to get a serious space program going. Competition is grand.
Do we really need curry on the moon?
Wow, I thought at least somebody would have said something. What if they can't find an American flag fluttering in the breeze when they get there? Wouldn't that be kinda funny? For those who think the original moon landing was a hoax owing more to Hollywood than NASA, some good news. You'll be able to spot the hoax this time around. The Indian film-makers won't be able to resist having 500 astronauts in sequined space suits pop out of craters to dance with the main characters when they hit the moon.
I didn't know NASA was now outsourcing too...
What are you ashamed of? That everyone can get medical treatment for at least serious issues? That people who are not even citizens of this country can get free medical treatment for a minor cold by entering any emergency room?
What exactly are YOU doing?
Before you spout something ridiculous, I have personally witnessed the free services, both from the recent three hours spent in an emergency room waiting room in CA and by my idiot brother who carried absolutely no insurance spending two weeks in traction at a hospital after wrecking his murdercycle.
No one goes without basic medical attention in the US and there is nothing to be ashamed about in that. If you disagree, prove it with a factual case...I don't know of any.
while travelling in US, I observed the same :P ...I was wondering where do these guys go in winters. to the moon, perhaps.
Shut the fuck up. You're a stupid faggot who doesn't know shit about shit. Please die. Thank you.
You can't really call me a "Wired Editor" unless of course you count all of the edits that go back and forth to my real editors back in San Francisco. That said, I do write for Wired News and the magazine about Indian things.
Over the last several months I have spent quite a bit of time working with the scientists over at ISRO about their space program and have even attended a launch of a satellite (check out this month's issue of Wired). There is a huge discrepancy between the rich and poor here, but that doesn't mean that India has more billionaires than China, and rivals the United States in many technical achievements.
There is no doubt that India will be able to put a man on the moon, though I am not 100% sure about the time line they have announced. One huge problem faced by ISRO is that they have trouble keeping the best minds in the country to work on their projects. The top engineers and students generally get snapped up by NASA who can afford to give them much nicer benefit packages and access to bigger high-tech gizmos. The ones who stay on here are usually a second tier of engineers. Still talented, but not the top. Also, ISRO does a lot fewer live tests on their machinery because that drives up costs. They prefer to do their work on paper.This might compromise the safety of the upcoming flight (re: the recent crash of the PSLV in July).
The major issue that needs to be contemplated by ISRO and NASA is whether or not a mission to the moon really offers concrete scientific advancements. Why are the two organizations racing to put people up there? Is it about nationalism, or are there gains that could push us forward to some specific research goal? I wonder how much overlap there will be in the mission goals of the ISRO and NASA craft.
One thing that is almost certain if ISRO moves forward with their plans, the mission will cost only a fraction of the NASA launch. NASA could learn a lot from India about keeping down costs.
-Scott Carney
Suppose we break this into two types of difficulty. They had to do all the initial research in 1968 to develop the programs that govern a trip to the moon. Once you go that program set down, wouldn't it be the same general program with updated variables?
I agree a thoroughly competent team would be needed to update it. But if you had a basic template for the subroutines, isn't it down to specific equations for that launch?
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
...but are these the same engineers who developed the Hindustani Marat with the piston-engined jet engine?
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my first post. Fundamentally, I have no problem with India spending their own money how they want. But while they are accepting international aid, I do.
: www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/ffd/2003/0708india.ht m+international+aid+to+india&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&c d=1
If you reread my original post, you'll see that I don't advocate massive infusions of cash, so I don't know where you got that idea from. What I'm saying is that India should spend their OWN money more wisely. And I agee with you that money isn't the answer, it's down to rooting out corruption, building infrastructure, education, and inspiring people. But moonshot addresses only one of those four items.
When a country starts doing stuff like moonshots and nuclear missiles, they've well and truly joined an elite club of nations. As far as I'm concerned at that point ALL aid should be cut off.
Take two minutes to read this :
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:jDa-SrO-6sYJ
and in particular read the last two paragraphs, and you'll see what I'm getting at : India is moving in the right direction, and rightly so, but they are doing it somewhat at the expense of leaving basic infrastructure behind.
That's what I see as being a mistake.
Once India stops accepting ALL international aid, then they can truly say that they are on their own. In the meantime though, it's a case of talking the talk, but not walking the walk.
But all said, no, I don't pay taxes in India, but some of the taxes I do pay DO end up in Indian coffers via aid, so I don't give I flying fuck whether any Indians, or you, give a flying fuck what I think.
Are you seriously suggesting that segregation was brought to an end because of the moon program, and not because of the work of MLK and the civil rights movement ? That is an interesting and, in my experience, unusual point of view.
I suggest you go and read a few history books.
Or start online here http://www.thekingcenter.org/
oh lord, o.k. given that the "West" you're talking about are Western Europeans prior to the 16th century, I'd advise you had a little gander at what you're thinking.. and please come again
I agree with you when you say international aid should stopped, especially since India herself doesn't want it (this business about accepting aid from 6 'select' countries is, well, silly).
Whether countries like Sweden choose to channel funds through NGOs is really upto them. IMO they shouldn't, but hey, it's their money.
However, if you think that cutting off [NGO] funding will make the Indian government spend more on basic sanitation, I'm afraid you're wrong. This is because you're projecting Western civic values onto India. Not that India is some kind of Stalinistic anti-poor nation or doesn't like the idea of sanitation (cue the dirty Indian jokes), but that the priorities are different: government waste and inefficiency is a bigger waste of money in India than defense and science expenditure (and the defense expenditure occurs because India is in what most sane people would consider a dangerous neighborhood) and borked social systems often ensure funds never quite reach the real needy (NGOs try hard to work around these systems). So Indians tend not too worry too much about "universal" health and sanitation, etc -- they figure the poor will get by and gradually improve their lives (which is actually happening today). Troubling yes, but not very surprising to anyone who's studied the evolution of democracies.
Far more interesting to me is the question why countries continue to give aid to a country building nukes and satellites. I think it is to assuage the Western conscience, which feels genuine pain (yeah, I joke about 'bleeding heart liberal crap', but it can be sincere crap) for human anguish -- and there is genuine poverty in parts of India.
> some of the taxes I do pay DO end up in Indian coffers via aid, so I don't give I flying fuck whether any Indians, or you, give a flying fuck what I think.
Unlike many recipients of aid who've gotten used to the handouts (which is a reason I am seriously opposed to things like Live8), Indians do have self-pride (this is the difference between a guy who panhandles for a living and a broke guy who goes to a soup kitchen swearing he'll pull himself out of the hole he's in). Given the choice between receiving your aid and having to put up with your nose in their affairs, I think they'll ask you to take their aid elsewhere. And most donors countries realize this, which is why aid isn't linked to other things -- hell, even after the nuke tests (in '98?) a livid Congress shut down a lot of trade ties and joint cooperation, but not governmental and NGO aid.
Go somewhere random
Totally agree.
I don't think cutting off aid will make them spend more on sanitation, you're right - it just won't happen.
Exactly my point. Those pre (and post) 16th century European rulers and religious leaders were generally bad people, but accidents of history prevented them from ever having the large scale, near police state level of control over their populations that Eastern leaders commonly enjoy. For every "droit de seigneur" or "Spanish Inquisition" in European history I can give you three examples that are even worse from Asian and middle eastern history.
This has been recognized from early Roman times. The origin of autocracy in Rome (and hence transmitted to European civilization) was a transfer from the East.
Even in modern times Eastern leadership tends toward the repressive, autocratic, and secretive. They believe that "the people" are too stupid to be involved in leadership.
On the dot dude...thats why countries in India are trying to re-invent the wheel so as to not be left behind