Slashdot Mirror
FBI Taps Cell Phone Microphones in Mafia Case
cnet-declan writes "We already knew the FBI can secretly listen in to car conversations by activating microphones of systems like OnStar. A new Mafia court case suggests that the FBI can do the same thing to cell phones. The judge's opinion and some background information [pdf] are available for reading online. The most disturbing thing? According to the judge, the bug worked even if the phone appeared to be 'powered off.' Anyone up for an open-source handset already?" From the article: "This week, Judge Kaplan in the southern district of New York concluded that the 'roving bugs' were legally permitted to capture hundreds of hours of conversations because the FBI had obtained a court order and alternatives probably wouldn't work. The FBI's 'applications made a sufficient case for electronic surveillance,' Kaplan wrote. 'They indicated that alternative methods of investigation either had failed or were unlikely to produce results, in part because the subjects deliberately avoided government surveillance.'"
That's what I suggest.
Maff's conspiracy.
well, we may not have open-source handsets, but is open-mic good enough?
In Soviet Russia, phone listens to you.
....
oh wait
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
The fact that they are using a cellphone case as a carrier for the secondary microphone or that they somehow got a hold of the Mafia's cellphone without them knowing?!
...do you?
And an open-source cellphone will do you no good when the seperate mic runs straight off the battery inside the phone regardless if your phone is on or not. This is not much different then having the FBI tap your watch, cd-rom drive, or shaver... but I guess that would be pointless since you don't talk to any of those about your secrets right?
The real puzzle here is how they managed to swap the real phone with the one that was wired by the FBI, there must have been a mole. And since they got a court order to "monitor" the suspects, is it really that *alarming* that it worked even when the phone was off? Are there limitations as to when you can and cannot monitor dangerous suspects? For example when they sleep, or go to the bathroom, or between the hours of 9-5? Anybody know?
The magical number is: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
I bet that the NSA uses "feature" a lot more than the FBI, and when they do it they certainly don't tell anybody about it.
The big difference is that the NSA will use this for counter-terrorism and also for industrial espionage, while the FBI probably only really uses it for crime investigation.
Remove the battery.
Or better yet, don't have one!
Due to the design of cell phones, it's actually very easy to modify a phone so that it gives a clear visual indication of whether it is transmitting or not.
If, for whatever reason, your phone starts transmitting (be it on a call, or because the FBI have remotely activated it), then some LEDs can be configured to light or flash - providing clear visual feedback. This could be a bit more convenient than removing the battery except when needed.
In fact, you can get the modification kits ready for use, for less than $5 - and installation, can take less than 30 seconds.
These kits are more usually sold as novelties for 'ricing' phones, but they can also be used for serious purposes:
Example kit
As someone who has on several occasions had to listen to my brother's phone pick up in his pocket without him realizing, I don't think this is much of a problem. If the FBI wants to listen to my pocket lint, more power to them.
At least here, in Estonia, this technique has been in use for many years. I'm sure same goes for all other EU countries. Btw, if you remove the phone's battery, you still can't be sure it's powered down... sometimes the police install a second, hidden battery in the phone.
I guess this also has been going on in the US for years. But I guess the US gov is so f*cked up in every possible way that nothing really matters when it comes to "protecting the world from terrorists". Even if it's illegal. So for-god(f*ck that too)-knows-what now they need to make this spying legal. Big news.
...then I don't care whose phone is getting bugged or how. Technology is constantly changing, so our abilities to moniter the public changes as well. It is the job of the courts to assure the public that this does not occur without probable cause. As long as there was a court order to bug the mob guys' phone, I don't care how they do it. I just want constant assurances that our government is allowing judicial oversight. This is all just a rehash of the same old story from back in the days when they were first tapping phone lines across the street from Ma Bell's switchboard.
I have no doubt the ability to record from the microphone when the phone is off is available to certain people, most phones nowdays have alarms where you can set it for a time - turn the phone off and it will turn itself back on at the specific time and sound your alarm. Now if you think about what does this, then surely there are other abilities built into using the phone when you believe it is "off". Hell, the whole "geographic communications cell that the call was made in is stored with the details of the call" giving away your location, and then being able to pinpoint it via triangulation from other cells is worrying enough.
It seems as if with the advent of mobiles taking over from landlines in the vast majority of calls, network operators are being made to (or doing it for their own reasons) to provide vast amounts of information and features so that calls and conversations can be tracked like this. It's all very well catching criminals (although the Orwellian feelings are building within me already), but what happens when it's misused. This situation reminds me very much of ISPs and net service providers with the email tracking/reading and browsing history situations.
Business Voyeur
Which phone manufacturers did NOT sell all of its customers out to the government? Perhaps there are specific model numbers that are not compromised? Or perhaps before a certain year?
Anyhow...if I unplug the phone battery it's off for sure...right?
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
The activation of cell phones microphones by the underlying network is actually possible with a lot of mobile phones (maybe all of them). The finnish government has had a guideline for classified meetings in place since the early nineties that strictly mandates all cell phones to have their batteries removed during the meeting because of exactly this possibility.
there are actuially a few secret goodies available to the feds in many modern cell phones.
First... Sat based GPS is NOT required in most cells phones to silently get perecise location, as per FCC device regulations and as per millions of dollars in levied and honored fines to lagging noncompliant cell providers.
also part of underwraps subsections of ETSI LI spec framework for LI (Lawful Interception) hint at leveraging the E911 feature that makes a cell not be able to disconenct if a 911 operator toggles a cell phone into "stay online no matter what" mode. Heck, ive played with that mode once... had to rip out the battery! (no way to hang up). Technology was added to prevent poor signal drops during a 911 call, but then used to keep line open while victim is delirious or expiring. For docs, Just look for havesting all spec docs starting with S3LI03 prefix on the net. Or hang around Cryptome or usual places.
Regarding the gocv tracking your movements in real time (if battery not removed from your non-GPS cell : 1996 the FCC defined a fancier "E911 Phase 2" for more precise ALI information to PSAPs using latitude and longitude information, and to identify a mobile caller's location within 125 meters (410 feet) 67% of the time to the PSAP. A PSAP is one of over 6,000 Public Safety Answering
Points (PSAP), some route , some deal directly with initial public calls. FCC 97-402 CC Docket No. 94-102 rules (i.e., by October 1, 1996). besides the 34-bit Mobile Identification Number (MIN), being sent in Phase I of E911, the 34 bit MIN accepted a "call back' even without a valid phone number, as the 1996 regulation also stipulates that CELL PHONES WITH NO CONTRACT OR DORMANT DEVICES MUST HAVE FREE ACCESS TO 911 service, no matter what. The tracking protocol is indepentdant of billing accept/reject.
To allow the cell to be detected within 410 feet WITHOUT GPS, cell phone towers use triangulation methods automated with cellular geolocation systems involving time difference of arrival (TDOA) and angle of arrival (AOA)
As for REMOB mode of cell phone (remote observation) the details seem to be partially vender unique, but it is supected that the table is trivially assined via Mobile Identification Number (MIN) table lookup in REMOB snitch mode.
PLEASE NOTE that the court documents allowing the voice tapping of the MAFIA suspect stated "OR OTHER MEANS". the "OR OTHER MEANS" is the non modified NON_ALTERRED original cell phone being merely set in a VOX mode for packet burst with simple threshold to sleep unless steady VOX activation, controlled partly by other terminal point. Otherwise battery of a modern cell will last only a few hours.
I cannot believe all the fools in this thread that actually believe the FBI has ability to add devices INSIDE a modified cell phone. Yeah... like theres lots of empty space!!! The judges papers said OR OTHER MEANS and this other means is the REMOB mode. Similar to onstar silent snithc mode in cadillacs.
If you really want to panic... the FBI buys the RFID scans of all the points on NY turnpike taht record car tire RFID that the TREAD act mandates to allow gov to uniquely track movements of all cars by untamperable chips in the tires... even at 90 miles and hour adn 12 feet away (though instaed of overpasses for RFID car tires as in parts of I-75, reading coils UNDER the pavement are used, as with the RFID tire impressions collected at canadian border customs booths.
sorry for all the lazy typos. I am very tired. an i know that factual anon posts stay +0 until the FBI shills squelch them to -1 rapidly with there grooming accounts they use here to stifle agitatant insider posts like this one.
According to c/net it was the internal microphone. They give some consideration to the possibility of a separate bug but conclude the weight of evidence points to the internal microphone being activated without the owner's knowledge.
While I'm at it I'll repeat a comment I posted on Technocrat:
Given that all mobile/cell phones are required to be locatable (its for your own safety remember?) and need to be accurately synchronised with a base station, what are the chances of forming a phased array using all microphones within a certain radius of a point? That way one could eavesdrop on a conversation well away from the nearest mobile phone.
I would guess that there is no need for a super accurate location or time. Measure the two as close as possible then record all streams from mobiles in the area. Next feed the whole lot into a super computer and do a big cross correlation with sliding windows centred about the best guess at relative phase (based on the measured location and time).
It is worth noting that the wavelength of the radio signals a mobile phone uses is comparable to the wavelength of the audio frequencies of the human voice. Thus in theory it is possible for a mobile phone base station to locate a mobile phone to within a fraction of an audio wavelength, exactly what is needed for a phased array.
Several ways which suggest that FBI and Nextel were able to actually activate the built-in cell phone microphone remotely, or least use the cellular network to obtain some remote surveillance.
The affidavit seeking the court order lists the target's phone number his 15-digit International Mobile Subscriber Identifier, and lists Nextel as the service provider. Why would they have to disclose this information to the court if they were just planting an ordinary bug which requires none of the above information? Maybe the affiant wanted to create a diversion for the thousands of slashdoters who would read it and wonder how they did it, or maybe there was a legitimate reason to put all of this information in the affidavit and actually use Nextel's network and the phone capabilities to listen on the target.
NOT TRUE! LIES!
Parent poster is lying and trying to coverup the shocking truth! (parent is a fed shill?)! Parent post did not cite section three PROPERLY of wiretap judge affidavit.p1.120106.pdf. Read it yourselves folks and spot the blatant parent post lie The FBI used the blanket method "OR OTHER MEANS" as clearly specified in the document. No modification to the cell phone was made AT ALL. No mods needed. (or feasable)
There are actually a few secret goodies available to the feds in many modern cell phones.
First... Sat based GPS is NOT required in most cells phones to silently get precise location, as per FCC device regulations and as per millions of dollars in levied and honored fines to lagging noncompliant cell providers.
also part of underwraps subsections of ETSI LI spec framework for LI (Lawful Interception) hint at leveraging the E911 feature that makes a cell not be able to disconnect if a 911 operator toggles a cell phone into "stay online no matter what" mode. Heck, ive played with that mode once... had to rip out the battery! (no way to hang up). Technology was added to prevent poor signal drops during a 911 call, but then used to keep line open while victim is delirious or expiring. For docs, Just look for harvesting all spec docs starting with S3LI03 prefix on the net. Or hang around Cryptome or usual places.
Regarding the gov tracking your movements in real time (if battery not removed from your non-GPS cell : 1996 the FCC defined a fancier "E911 Phase 2" for more precise ALI information to PSAPs using latitude and longitude information, and to identify a mobile caller's location within 125 meters (410 feet) 67% of the time to the PSAP. A PSAP is one of over 6,000 Public Safety Answering Points (PSAP), some route , some deal directly with initial public calls. FCC 97-402 CC Docket No. 94-102 rules (October 1, 1996). besides the 34-bit Mobile Identification Number (MIN), being sent in Phase I of E911, the 34 bit MIN accepted a "call back' even without a valid phone number, as the 1996 regulation also stipulates that CELL PHONES WITH NO CONTRACT OR DORMANT DEVICES MUST HAVE FREE ACCESS TO 911 service, no matter what. The tracking protocol is independant of billing accept/reject.
To allow the cell to be detected within 410 feet WITHOUT GPS, cell phone towers use triangulation methods automated with cellular geolocation systems involving time difference of arrival (TDOA) and angle of arrival (AOA)
As for REMOB mode of cell phone (remote observation) the details seem to be partially vender unique, but it is suspected that the table is trivially assigned via Mobile Identification Number (MIN) table lookup in REMOB snitch mode.
PLEASE NOTE that the court documents allowing the voice tapping of the MAFIA suspect stated "OR OTHER MEANS". the "OR OTHER MEANS" is the non modified NON_ALTERRED original cell phone being merely set in a VOX mode for packet burst with simple threshold to sleep unless steady VOX activation, controlled partly by other terminal point. Otherwise battery of a modern cell will last only a few hours.
I cannot believe all the fools in this thread that actually believe the FBI has ability to add devices INSIDE a modified cell phone. Yeah... like there's lots of empty space!!! The judges papers said OR OTHER MEANS and this other means is the REMOB mode. Similar to onstar silent snitch mode in Cadillacs.
If you really want to panic... the FBI buys the RFID scans of all the points on NY turnpike that record car tire RFID that the TREAD act mandates to allow gov to uniquely track movements of all cars by untamperable chips in the tires... even at 90 miles and hour adn 12 feet away (though instead of overpasses for RFID car tires as in parts of I-75, reading coils UNDER the pavement are used, as with the RFID tire impressions collected at canadian border customs booths.
sorry for all the lazy typos. I am very tired. an i know that factual anon posts stay +0 until the FBI shills squelch them to -1 rapidly with there grooming accounts they use here to stifle agitator insider posts like this one.
Assuming cell phones can be listened on in the way described, I have this to say. The issue is whether the government is forcing cell phone manufacturers to include backdoors.
Maybe they just bought a commercial off the shelf (COTS) bugged phone, and surreptitiously replaced the phones after copying the user settings.
4 &postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
These phones went the rounds of the blogs a while ago so I think they're real:
http://www.spyphones.com/
Not to mention you can use a phone itself as a remote GPS tracker. See this link from cruel.com in August:
http://forums.accutracking.com/viewtopic.php?t=49
If you need text styles to communicate then you don't have a message.
An open source cell phone wouldn't fix any of your problems ... there isn't secret software on your cell phone ... imagine a huge company trying to keep a secret like that ... the equipment has simple physical properties that make them easy to assist in snooping no software required. A basic vase in your apartment could be used to pick up sound remotely using some basic physics.
In the cell phreak/hack community this has been suspected for quite some time. It's also suspect that the GPS can be activated regardless of whether you have it set for 911 only or not. If you need total anonymity with a cell around the best thing is to remove the battery completely and if you are still paranoid place a 1k ohm resistor across the positive and negative terminals of the phone (not the battery) to drain the capacitors that may still hold a charge. Further you can remove the antenna which will greatly reduce or eliminate the transmission range of the phone.
Whether the parent post is correct or not, it certaily deserves an "interesting" mod.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
You mean like the TuxPhone?_ Page
i t-capture-the-imagination-of-the-open-source-commu nity-072392.php
http://www.opencellphone.org/index.php?title=Main
Or the FIC Linux phone that SlashGear talked about last month?
http://www.slashgear.com/fic-linux-cellphone-can-
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
This is a known feature of cellular handsets. At least here in Europe it is. There's no way to turn it off, although you can get around it by removing the battery or leaving the phone at home. Politicians and businessmen here routinely remove the batteries from their cell-phones during sensitive negotiations. Basically, carrying a cell-phone is like voluntarily carrying a remote-controlled mic with you everywhere.
There are relatively easy hard-wire mods (at least for some phones) to make the light on your cell-phone activate whenever the phone is transmitting. That way at least you know when you're being listened in on.
I heard about this in the local (European) news several years back...
Om
What is alarming or disturbing about the FBI obtaining a warrant to eavesdrop on criminals???
WRONG! The feds do in fact log all car tires that pass secret monitoring points on certain highways and have for many years since T.R.E.A.D. was enacted by law. License plates are transferrable and also not 100% discernable.
:
:
It is a US felony to commercially import or sell auto tires that do not have a sanctioned spy chip RFID radio transpnders in them, with a unique GUID for every tire.
A secret initiative exists to track all funnel-points on interstates and US borders for car tire ID transponders (RFID chips embedded in the tire).
Your tires have a passive coil with 64 to 128 bit serial number emitter in them! (AIAG B-11 ADC v3.0) . A particular frequency energizes it enough so that a receiver can read its little ROM. A ROM which in essence is your GUID for your TIRE. Multiple tires do not confuse the readers. Its almost identical to all "FastPass" "SpeedPass" technologies you see on gasoline keychain dongles and commuter windshield sticker-chips. The US gov has secretly started using these chips to track people as far back as 2002.
I am not making this up. Melt down a high end Firestone, or Bridgestone tire and go through the bits near the rim (sometimes at base of tread) and you will locate the transmitter (similar to 'grain of rice' pet ids and Mobile SpeedPass, but not as high tech as the tollbooth based units). Sokymat LOGI 160, and Sokymat LOGI 120 transponder buttons are just SOME of the transponders found in modern high end car tires. The AIAG B-11 Tire tracking standard is now implemented for all 3rd party transponder manufactures [covered below].
The US Customs service uses it in Canada to detect people who swap license plates on cars when doing a transport of contraband on a mule vehicle that normally has not logged enough hours across the border.
Photos of untamperable tracking chips before molded deep into tires!
http://www.sokymat.com/index.php?id=94
the first subcontracter secretly hired for providing gear for bulk logging of tire RFID on highways in 2002 was
http://web.archive.org/web/20021014102238/telemati cs-wireless.com/divisions.html
ALL USA cars can be radio tracked using the tires. Refer to tire standard AIAG B-11 ADC, (B-11 is coincidentally Post Sept 11 fastrack initiative by US Gov to speed up tire chip standardization to one read-back standard for highway usage).
The AIAG is "The Automotive Industry Action Group"
The non proprietary (non-sokymat controlled) standard is the AIAG B-11 standard is the "Tire Label and Radio Frequency Identification" standard
"ADC" stands for "Automatic Data Collection"
The "AIDCW" is the US gov manipulated "Automatic Identification Data Collection Work Group"
The standard was started and finished rapidly in less than a year as a direct consequence of the Sep 11 attacks by Saudi nationals.
All tire manufacturers were forced to comply AIAG B-11 3.0 Radio Tire tracking standard by the 2004 model year.
(B-11: Tire & Wheel Label & Radio Frequency ID(RFID) Standard)
http://mows.aiag.org/source/Orders/index.cfm?task= 3&CATEGORY=AUTOIDBC&PRODUCT_TYPE=SALES&SKU=B-11
(use google cache to glance at that link if you are a hacker, all access to that page is watched by the feds, as are orders.)
A huge (28 megabyte compressed zip) video of a tire being scanned remotely was at http://mows.aiag.org/ScriptContent/videos/ (the file is "video Aiagb-11.zip").
THAT LINK was still valid as recently as Feb 2004, long after my 2002 ignored warnings on slashdot. But in July 2004 died after feds saw my origianl warnings regarding T.R.E.A.D. act (RFID citizen tracking)
"FBI had obtained a court order"
Nothing to see here.
There's an easy countermeasure to this. The method described is effectively causing the phone to make a call without the GUI showing that a call is being made. You can get very cheap toys that detect the microwave signal when the phone is making a call and light up - some are in the form of a novelty hand or other cradle that the phone sits in. I've found with mine that is will blink every so often as the phone syncs up with the nearest cell. If a call is being made it blinks all the time. So just carry one of these, and if you see it blinking constantly, somebody within 30cm or so is making a call. Take the battery out of your cellphone and see if it stops - if it does, you've been bugged.
No Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Sounds like the judge should be impeached, because my constitution doesnt make any exemptions.
Yeah, this won't get abused. Big brother is listening to your powered off cell phone just itching to send you to gitmo.
I hate sigs.
This the same Judge from the DeCSS case?
"alternative methods of investigation either had failed or were unlikely to produce results, in part because the subjects deliberately avoided government surveillance." - amd what the fuck is wrong with not wanting assholes listening into your private conversation? i would deliberately avoid government surveillance as well, for no reason other then i don't like it. if that's all thats required to spy on your population, america is in BIG trouble
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
This would need the cooperation of every mechanics shop that sold tires, similar to the system set up for tracking gun purchases. And you could just buy the tires yourself with cash. I'm calling bullshit.
Ohhh Jonnycakes...
Fuggedaboudit...
Tony, she was a who-er...
You talk to da guy about da ting?..
Anyone want some sanguiche?..
oh marone...
the subjects deliberately avoided government surveillance
Ok, so what does that mean, and when exactly is that taken as on offensive/criminal activity ? If you see a cctv camera and go around it, or if you don't take your mobile phone with you on the road, or wear sunglasses and baseball cap, or just simply don't leave your house ? Or what ? Since the wording of the short quote sounds like that avoidance is a bad thing or illegal or something. Is this yet another case of if you didn't do anything you should have nothing to hide (we should make an automatic system like there was in the Demolition Man movie which should automatically fine everyone coming up with that sorry excuse) ?
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
... place the phone next to any sort of audio equipment. My RAZR spews so much crap all over the spectrum that it's easy to tell when it is talking to the tower -- if it's next to my car stereo, my computer speakers, my clock radio, or a zillion other things I get treated to a characteristic pattern of buzzes as it negotiates with and/or broadcasts to the cell phone net.
To find out if your phone is being used for eavesdropping, just keep it near your stereo.
I'm not surprised that someone is shocked by this, but what I don't get is how Slashdotters are shocked by this? I mean? This is a technical site, right?
Listen: you have an embedded device that in its normal state is always on-network on a packet network. It has a limited range of connectivity, but this limitation is mitigated by having a large number of serialized access points that are geographically situated so as to make connectivity seamless. The embedded devices are reasonably computationally powerful (much moreso than PCs of a few years ago) and have a digital or soft-user-interface (including the power circuitry, which is not a physical full-throw SPST that connects or disconnects power, but is rather an input that runs through the embedded software). The software itself is secured and controlled by the network administration, and software and content can be "push" downloaded to the devices by the network.
From this description, all of the following seem technically obvious:
1 - You have no control over the software in your phone; the vendors and networks do.
2 - Since said software controls the power interface and user interface, you have no control over (or reason to trust as being consistent with your expectations) these interfaces either.
3 - Your phone could thus be easily set by the network to be "always on" without having any such indications in the user interface. The user interface could continue to give the appearance that you are controlling such functions as power and connectivity when in fact the phone is doing everything opposite from what you believe it is doing. There is no technical reason why a phone can't show "no signal" when it has "full signal" or a blank screen when the rest of it is still live, or that it is not transmitting or engaged in a call when actually it is transmitting.
4 - While on-network (and as we've already established, you as a mere user have no way of knowing with real certainty whether it is on network or off network, you have only your trust in the consistency with your expectations of the embedded software) it is a simple matter to observe at any moment to which access point a given user is connected. In fact, you should know that this is recorded already, or how should they know when you are "roaming" and when you are not. The side effect of this information's recording is that (even if we assume they don't automate triangulation with tower handoffs/multiple towers, which is a silly assumption) it is always known to within a few hundred feet exactly where a given phone is, since the network can clearly see to which tower it is connected.
---
---
I mean... duh.
A cell phone is a bug. Period. Anyone who doesn't get this has clearly not been paying attention. There is absolutely no technical reason (and in some cases it's technically unavoidable) why your cell phone isn't right now:
- Reporting your position to the network, and thus, to anyone who has access to the network's database (e.g. government)
- Altered by software "pushes" from the network to seem off when it's still on, or to transmit whatever the mic pics up anytime you happen to be in a certain part of town between the hours of 7pm-10pm, or to transmit whatever the mic pics up for the 10 minutes after you call some specific number
- Sending your complete contacts list and recent and missed calls lists to the network provider (e.g. government)
I mean, come on, people. Technically this isn't even a question. Whether this actually happens or not is just a matter of policy ("Do we want to track location and bug people?") on the part of networks and the government, certainly not a matter of technology ("Can the equipment do it?")
Of course the equipment can do it.
---
---
Thought experiment for the dubious.
Imagine that you have been assigned by work to carry a laptop with you at all times. This "GovCorp" laptop has a solid-state hard drive so that you can't tell if it's
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
This capability of cell phones has been known for a long time -- and is the primary reason why you're not allowed to carry a cell phone in an embassy, even if it's off.
Where can I learn more?
to accept the praise of personal wisdom is an affront to the very ideal i hold dear.
The "penalty" for getting information without a warrant is that it will be excluded from use at trial: "Exclusionary rule". Also, "fruit of the poisoned tree".. The courts, when looking for remedies for illegal searches came up with this method of providing a disincentive. Collect data illegally, you don't get to use it in court. You don't convict the bad guy, your boss gets on your case, etc.
Mind you, there are all sorts of ways to try and work around it to get excluded evidence into the record, and there are always cries for "let the cops do their job and put those bad guys in jail". But, it IS a fairly effective sanction, when allowed to do it's thing.
This is sort of the problem with the "breaking the wall" between data collection for intelligence and collecting for prosecution.
So that explains why my standby time is so crap :-)
If it's possible to hide a lethal bomb in a phone, then a bug should be easy.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahya_Ayyash
We're not falling for that one! I can't wait until a Democrat controlled gov't uses these privacy-invading laws to expose fundamental religious 'tards for mistreating the litters of children they keep shitting out! You can't hit your kid with a stick if he misbehaves, Mr. Savage, this is 2006.
(See, it goes both ways)
Blar.
These guys should use Raseac Secure Phone. (Free download at http://www.raseac.com.br./
Many phones have *lots* of storage on them these days. You could imagine a mode that takes voice, compresses it to spare space in the flash file system, then squirts the data up at opportune times (e.g., trickle during a conversation, the tail end of a conversation, etc). This way you wouldn't have to have the radio on all the time (which is easily detectable with $5 dongles). In "VOX" mode I'll bet you could get several days of recording compressed into a few megabytes.
Either technique will have an effect on battery life, however. This is hard to hide, but most people would probably write it off to the general flakiness of batteries.
Anyone remember the flap in the 90s about the software controlled "off hook" LED on ISDN phones? (... didn't think so....)
Any sufficiently advanced technology is insufficiently documented.
maybe, maybe not.
Sure you can buy the tires in cash and put them on with no paper trail to tie them back to you. However, how hard would that be to correlate?
As soon as you go through a toll booth or a detector with a camera nearby, it would be trivial to tie your tire IDs to your cars License plate. In fact, they wouldn't even need to do it en mass. All they need to do is store the data.
Then when they have an ID to look for, they can go back and see when they saw it previously, or where it has been since.
Once you have detectors in place, it becomes a data mining issue. Put some of them at toll booths, where they already have cameras, and hell, with speed pass, they should be able to correlate your tires with your car the first time you use your speed pass.
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
thanks, good post.
Nextel has alway had the "baby monitor" feature and cops have know this since Nextel stated in the business. Bad guys use this feature against the police. Think of your own details.
Just cut the damned mic and attach a privacy swtich. Or, how about take the battery out?
Then again, its MY DAMNED PHONE! Why are thy installing things without my permission/knowledge in the first place?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Along with those commercial intel firms and comm firms (everything from tollbooth tracking, the aforementioned OnStar, and Pay-Per-View data, to ChoicePoint, of course[former directors on ChoicePoint's board: Richard Armitage and Vin Weber - get the picture?]) there is also the intel streams coming from NSA and NGA - truly a formidable combination. That movie, Enemy of the State, is now a reality.....
This has got to be the same person, talking about RFID in tires (which I never knew about -- as if I'm not paranoid enough) and more. Interesting, uh, stuff:
http://clintjcl.wordpress.com/tag/rants/
A phone that can act as a voice recorder does not have to transmit all the time. In fact, a phone that was always transmitting would arouse suspicion with or without a little red light. It would be warm and have really poor battery life. You just have to love these new convergence devices that can store hours of your favorite music!
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Ok, so I just pulled up the text of the TREAD Act and I do not see any mention of RFID or any other on-the-move uniquely identifiable law-mandated technology. Perhaps I am missing something. Anyway... Heres a link to the act http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c106:5:./tem p/~c106P3ZfKY:: .
Yeah OK the whole thing sounded pretty crazy to me but I just went down to put tires on my car at the local Wheel Center. The dealer wanted my name address and phone number even though I was paying cash, " For the Warranty". "Leaving the state" I said so there was no need. So after placing all 4 tires in back of my car, I told him I was getting them mounted somewhere else as I have Mag wheels and could get them mounted free. Again out came the paperwork and the dealer asked me if I was sure that this was the car that the tires were going on, I said yes and the dealer proceeded to try and write down the VIN number of the car. I asked why and he said , since the Firestone fiasco it was the store policy to write down the number of the car and send it to corporate. I then asked him if there was anyway I could just buy tires and leave. Never came up before he said and then yes he let me leave without id but how do I know if he wrote down my license plate or not or got the vin? Paranoid? Yup but I used to sell tire and we never had any restrictions on sale. The guy today sure didn't seem happy not knowing where his tires were going. Then I came home and read this about tracing tires. Now all the dealers responses seemed reasonable but......?
When I'm in the office (or in the car), I know I'm beeing called (or that I'll receive SMS) abaout a second before I do. I can hear the handshake on my FM radio. I bet the bad guys can afford one of those to monitor when their phones transmit... Rgs Jernej
As someone who has on several occasions had to listen to my brother's phone pick up in his pocket without him realizing, I don't think this is much of a problem.
Applying what you know to news is a good idea, but I don't think you have exhausted what you know. The root cause of the problem is one that non free software always has: the device does what it's owners want; you are not the owner and never fully trust or even enjoy the capabilities of the device.
First off, you should know that the technique works. It's about to be presented it a court and will be used to convince people who hear it to put others in jail. Sounds solid to me. There must be a difference between what you do and what they do.
Now let's think of how they might do it. As you noticed, the phone company does not give you much bandwith so conversations from your brother's pocket sound like shit. Imagine what they might give themselves. The list of materials includes:
Given all of that, you can easily imagine recording excellent quality voice and transmitting it at your leasure. Given the dismal security record most telcos have, anyone with enough time and effort will be able to help themselves. Devices that can be abused are.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
How can a citizen check whether a warrant is valid or not? How do they, or anyone else for that matter, know that the warrant was signed by a proper judge, and not some FBI bureaucrat? How do you find out how much the FBI paid the judge to get him/her to sign the warrant? ...or how hard they had to lean on the judge to get the signing? There used to be (and probably still are) "hanging judges". Perhaps there are "signing judges" who will sign any warrant that comes across their desk. What is the warranting process anyways? If one judge denies the warrant, can the FBI/police go to a different judge with the same warrant?
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
Honest question- when I buy my phone from a foreign country (Japan), does this mode exist too, or is it only implemented in phones sold in the US? Certainly I'd feel better knowing that my choice of exotic phone also kept me safe from unwarranted tapping. It has a built-in GPS, though, so I don't feel so safe if it could be accessed by the feds.
OSx86 FTW
As long as there's a court order, I don't care whose phone is getting bugged or how. Technology is constantly changing, so our abilities to moniter the public changes as well. It is the job of the courts to assure the public that this does not occur without probable cause.
How exactly is a court supposed to stop some clerk at the phone company from doing whatever they like? The phone company itself has proved again and again they can't keep a secret and can't control their own networks.
The only solution is to have a device that's secure an under your own control. Until there are free handsets, you can not trust your cell phone. If you are in business and don't want your competition to know what you are doing, you will have to take other measures to protect yourself. A sound proof box is a good idea for important meetings.
Oh yeah, the Patriot act got rid of the fed's need to go though the messy and time consuming warrent process. They had their own little secret court they can apply to in secret but even that was too much trouble. Big brother is mostly a concern when he colludes with or is used by your competitors to screw you. This has gotten easier to do, but it's all still secondary to the previously mentioned incompetence and stupidity.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
And aren't car tires transferable too (in case of returns/exchanges)?
OSx86 FTW
I haven't seen any mention of the camera's on many phones - why wouldn't they be usable by spies as well? To watch people when the cameras are just sitting around..?
I've noticed a peculiar noise in my stereo speakers as well when it's about to ring, or connecting.
I worked for a major cell carrier for 5 years, let me tell you, especially Motorola phones, it is simple to start screwing with the phone's inner workings through "Test Modes" and such. I one year, carriers will already be doing software upgrade "Pushes" to the phones, without letting you know it is happening. When you sign the contract it states this will happen, the contracts have said this for a few years now but I don't think anyone's really looking at them.
Sorry, AC, but your post is mostly BS.
- The T.R.E.A.D. act focuses on tire safety, identifying problems as soon as possible, and making manufacturers specifically responsible for safety and manufacture. It also specifies some research and standards for child safety seats. Go figure.
- The T.R.E.A.D. act doesn't specify RFID tags. It does allow for rulemaking that might.
- RFID tags in tires were probably first implemented by Michelin, to simplify inventory. They may have devised the embedded antenna to solve the problem of embedded tags failing to activate at distances greater than 3 inches. The antenna increases the range to about 24 inches.
- Wal-mart may require RDIF tags on all merchandise, but I'm not sure the program is fully implemented yet.
- The most important reason a tire shop wants your vehicle VIN number is for warranty info and to curb warranty abuse. It's that -duh- simple.
I can't find any definitive info that AIAG B.11 is fully implemented. I can, however, find that B.11 is NOT fully implemented as late as 2004, where AIAG states that it is not fully adopted.
Sorry, but the conspiracy isn't there yet. Nice try.
ps- the post is pretty much verbatim from a 2000 blog. Sounds like more BS to me.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Anyone going to pjone the Cell Number in the PDF
Has the Maff guy been locked up yet.
Some TDMA and CDMA Nokia phones could be configured to answer a call automatically, mute the speaker, not ring, and just sit there, listening. Other makers too. One common complaint was that a parent could set a phone like this, call it while they were out having dinner, and listen in on the kids and babysitter. OKI phones could do this in the 90s. Kevin Mitnick was pretty good at this. But NAMP phones couldn't be configured OTA, so this required physical access to the phone. I bet lots of current phones could be configured to open the mic and send. I bet even *I* could figure out how. With the help of the carrier, sure the FBI could send some code to open things up, maybe even use the GSM data channel to send mic audio as something like SMS.\ Fairly easy. Bet they've done it before. -rick
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
How perfectly tangential of you to take a technical discussion about cellphones and use it to spout anti-American bullshit. It's the weekend. Relax. Take this time away from your daily axegrinding.
Think about it for a second. They're probably in that, too, you know. Actually being able to use it to listen into your house, like a bug, when your phones are hung up (depending on phone, of course). Possible?
I'm surprised the obvious has been missed. If this phone is transmitting all the time, or even just a lot, the battery will drain quickly. Do you not think the phone's owner will begin to wonder why his battery is only good for 2 or 3 hours?
They can't have had the phone transmitting all the time, they would have had to be selective about it or the phone would be discarded as broken, or sent off for inspection because it is suspicious.
There is enough space in many cellphones (I've opened mine) for a microphone/transmitter combo, if it is wired to the battery, but again, if the drain is too high, why bother? The space is not much, but it would do (you could fit one under the cover-up sticker in the gap where the GSM card would have gone in my CDMA phone).
"They can't have had the phone transmitting all the time"
They don't transmit all the time, but they do transmit "here I am" signals at regular, close intervals. And it would be trivial to use a little memory in the phone to store a stack of GPS coordinates, for use during the periodic "here I am" transmissions.
Thanks for the info. I am not at all surprised by this.
1 42208&from=rss
And what's sad is that the average person totally buys into the marketing. They completely suspend their own judgment when it comes to closed source stuff. "Oh, the web page says 'completely secure' and '1024 bit encryption'. And look, it's got a picture of a lock and key! You should use it too."
Most people don't have the slightest clue that the only way you can guarantee whether you can trust a piece of software is if you review the code yourself. Second is if someone who you believe is competent and loyal reviews it, and third is if it is open source and some hypothetically cryptographical/security expert can review it at their leisure. Closed source should be viewed as insecure by default.
Reminds me of this article...
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/16/2
A closed source anonymity focused livecd... yeah, right. "But dude, it's by someone called "Dr Kaos! Wow, he sounds like a l33t h@x0r, it must be the shiznit dude."
I mean, if cut-out newspaper font doesn't spell security, I don't know what does.
Oh yeah? Do you have links to any of the "facts" you cited? At least the AC is collecting links demonstrating some form of research.
SRSLY.
Your mind is clear / The things that you fear / Will fade with how much you / Believe what you hear
Mod parent up.
Would it work if non-USA cell phones were used? I guess not British cell phones since the Brits seem to be vying for the title of Orwellian Big Brother, but suppose we went to Sweden or Japan or Venezuela and bought a cell phone there? I'm sure there would be GSM-type phones that would work within US borders when used with a US sim card.
Even if the vendor tries to lock the cell phone to a given service provider, there should be places that unlock cell phones. My brother-in-law travels to Hong Kong from time to time, and there's a street where these street vendors put up their stands. He brings them half a dozen cell phones and gives them money, and it takes about two minutes each to unlock each one.
This Big Brother stuff is getting scary. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
404555974007725459910684486621289147856453481154 in hex is "You sank my Battleship?"
[GPG key in journal]
Having modded GSM Motorola's for a few years, it's not so hard to believe that some rogue bitshifter from Motorola or one of it's part vendors decided to create a custom firmware which service providers, at LE request, can push to any specific mobile equipment.
If that functionality isn't built in by default (spooky.)
Anyways, there's also the CORElet (think iTunes) which runs in the background all the time.
On a side note, all Motorola phones have the Moto-specific Talk Secure capability, even though the hardware AES module is only available for one phone AFAIK.
I have tried Sprint-Nextel's mobile locator on a Nextel phone. Basically the phone must have GPS set to unrestricted, but assuming it's the feds they can still locate the phone. The triangulation method is actually quite precise by a mere 30-50ft. With GPS it's really just dead on and with an accuracy of 0-3ft. Information is given on a map and the phone itself allows for even the speed you are traveling at. The only way that this can be solved is by removing the battery yet in the network they will know where was the last location that phone was seen.
The government simply turns all your phones on whenever they want to. Anybody working in telephone R&D can tell you that *all* phone sets can be turned on remotely. The only way to be private is to unplug all phones and remove the battery from your cell phone.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Who pays for the airtime?
Back when Rudy Giuliani was a US attorney and the FBI was taking down the New York Mafia, the FBI had wiretaps put in by New York Telephone. These were all billed to the FBI as leased lines, and the FBI had a leased line bill of over a million dollars a year. This was a real budget problem for them; they weren't budgeted for that kind of thing.
One month, the FBI didn't pay one of their leased line bills. New York Telephone's billing software dealt with the problem by billing the other end of the leased line. By sending a bill to the party being wiretapped.
That episode was what got the FBI into lobbying for CALEA.
Sensible people usually don't put as much time and effort into not believing conspiracy theorists as the conspiracy nuts do when inventing their conspiracies. :) This guy has been cutting and pasting the same rant about tire rfid for 5 years, apparently.(and if you even look at the comments to this one article you'll see he has cut and pasted the same stuff multiple times today.)
/. posts 6 months ago reposted here: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com/tag/rants/
PLEASE LOOK AT THAT LINK : Its the same shocking tire material I have been trying to tell people about since the spring of 2001 on slashdot. -- from one of his
When the phone is genuinely off, it is not listening to base station and so cannot be turned on by it. However, the phone could be designed so that the base station can tell it not to turn off, but pretend to be off. This is practical engineering wise because if every phone was turning itself on and checking in for command to go into surveillance mode, the phone-off life would drop noticeably. However all phone designers would know this, and the info would have leaked by now.
Do you have any evidence (articles etc) about your assertion re Irish network?
I don't know if what you claim is true or not. It sounds credible.
For these and other statements posted as AC, it would be useful to establish a GPG-verifiable identity. I think this should go for all "whistleblower" type AC posts. That way someone else can't log in as AC and muddle the claim with some post like "Just kidding! I was messing with your mind!" or something.
The posting would need to be in plain text, with pre-defined line breaks (or else the GPG-signature wouldn't verify). It's a bit of a hassle --I tried to post with a GPG signature, but I couldn't let Slashdot wrap my lines for me. Hmm --oh, well.
404555974007725459910684486621289147856453481154 in hex is "You sank my Battleship?"
[GPG key in journal]
if that happens frequently and you change your batteries that long, replace your cellphone, ...
I don't want to know how your household is doing but I do remember a scene of an entire Ikea house destroyed by an explosion (Fight Club)
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
Hmm... good point, and I think I remember him posting the exact same thing from the slashdot story linked by this story, now that I think about it.
SRSLY.
Are you an insane LIAR!? All my facts are 100% true in all my anon posts here.
You call me a nut? I posted FACTS. There is nothing nutty with any of my facts in any post ever. If you want cell phone links galore, I could take the time for you but amusingly the scraps I fed you are truthfully and honestly all you need as a starting point, but the crowd here is not worthy of my time. Slashdot died for me about 4 years ago or so.
You say "CONSPIRACY"!? Is 'electricity', or 'oxygen', or 'algebra' a conspiracy? You are an idiot Danny Rathjens (8471).
In layman's terms a conspiracy is seeing non-provable sinister gov plots, assumedly false, based on flimsy evidence. I posted COPIOUS links in my RFID posts from 2001 onward. In fact, many many more pages than what I distill-pasted here today.
I do see a real trend though... federal gov shills all UNANIMOUSLY attacked me in 2001, as you are now, using hostile words such as kook, nutball, wacko, conspiracy nut, etc... in a pathetic attempt to discredit the poster of the secret facts, me. Attacking the messenger instead of the merits of the message itself.
How can you not believe in tangible truisms such as electricity, or oxygen, or algebra? You must be retarded, or a government shill.
COUNTLESS people modded my posts to -1 in the past, typically after 4 hours with no chance of posting a second post to survive over -1 rating on Slashdot. And unmercifully, the dreaded "redundant" neg mod was used on them for spite against me. -1 for some astounding posts. -1 because modding on Slashdot is broken by lazy modders that surf at +2.
THE ONLY SOLUTION is to post relevant duplicate responses if one is ignored and stifled in a thread. You call it "redundant" I call it logical tactic fighting the fbi shills (like you) that mod my many DIFFERENT ground breaking anon posts to -1 whrn they attack the us government and divulge too much sensitive info.
so now you bitch that i posted TWICE in this thread? Danny Rathjens (8471) you are a clueless asswipe for not realizing that until an hour ago, THIS POST rated +5 above you languished with a reating of about +1 to 0 here.
Yup. ignored.
Now that FINALLY it is +5 anon, you whine and prattle on taht its duplicate. I did not copy paste. "multiple times"?!?!?! try TWICE. as in "two". claiming "two" is multiple is not considered an honest characterization. Similarly the words "a few" are not applied to values of 2 or less in English speech except by manipulative speakers with disinformation on their agenda. Why are you trying to naysay me?
PROOF that I did not copy paste is no less than 12 different spelling error corrections. You are wrong Danny Rathjens (8471). It was not copy past. It has 12 typos changes throughout that make you a liar.
If you are in a snit that my BOTH posts are +5, fear not, the RFID car tire article I penned is usually ALWAYS modded to -1 permanently after peaking at +5 by deliberate forces trying to ensure that the article is not searchable or archived in slashdot lookups in the future.
That is why you do not know how few times i actually have posted certain posts on many DIVERSE confidential technologies here, not just the two you see today.
And I post rarely. VERY rarely (10 times per year, total, and only repeat topic is the bi-annual car RFID). But when I do craft a bombshell expose post or insider whistleblowing post, it either goes -1 or +5, there is no in-between. -1 or +5 for my posts.
One reason I avoid Slashdot posting is ungrateful assholes like you. Every time a person like you tries to discredit me without citing a link (URL) trying to dispute a valid fact I claim, but uses childish phrases like "conspiracy nuts" as you just threw at me... I consider ALL of the people at slashdot not worthy of my time. All of us suffer because of the few like you that chase me off.
I save my +5 anon topics posts in a trophy archive on my hard drive, encrypted. I have exposed and revealed about 20 amazing things first here
Detection ois relatively simple, if you don't use your phione much: The battery goes down way too fast. Countermeasure is to remove the battery when the phone is not in use.
The counter-countermeasure is simply to make ''deliberately evading government surveillance'' a crime with a life sentence...
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
I'm not a programmer, but how difficult would it be to write a REAL spyware app- one that could activate a computer's microphone & camera, and either log the data, or allow somebody to listen in, over the network?
you too, are also a government shill idiot.
d =17082606
kindly read all of this post :
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=209450&ci
"good point"?!??!!?
WHAT GOOD POINT are you refering too, sycophant lackey?
A separate mic wouldn't be necessary for a Bluetooth phone. A Bluetooth phone could even be hacked to surreptitiously spy on close-by conversations.
// file: mice.h
#include "frickin_lasers.h"
I for one welcome our new Thought Police overlords.
KWTm (808824),
.jpg suffix before submission to a freeware
Thank you (this is the orig anon). I may start doing that. As a person
that origianlly found the actual suspicious gaping backdoor in the 1st
and second generation of blowfish crypto used in hundreds of shipping
products for years, I am surprised I did not think of your helpful
idea before.
Regretfully, I have whistleblowed on numerous sensitive topics,
typically technological, but sometimes mil tech, nasa tech, or DOJ
tech related, and even if I use a different GPG for all, from now on,
even with the style and typing personas I try to infuse into my
writing, and various web browsers and proxies I use... I fear getting
"outted" by colleagues whom might correlate the posts of diverse
topics and interests by the EXISTENCE of a GPG alone.
Furthermore, each of my many landmark shocking +5 anon posts were
crafted with different writing styles and quirks on purpose and are
meant to not be associated back to one single author.
What I MIGHT do is post a copy WITH GPG sig, then furthermore wrapped
INSIDE an encrypted message to a usenet text group. Then, afterward,
at my sole discretion, I can provide usenet archive link and reference
and decrypt key to message and to signature. then I can reuse the
signature for further confirmation for that point on, for
"credibility". But this works only if I post a HASH, out of band, in
the slashdot original post, perhaps 24 bits worth, then spoofers
planting false side archives could not hijack my persona by doing the
same with a diff signature and diff post to usenet at the same time.
If google usenet archive stored JPEGS and not text i could use
steganography and then use a visible hash larger than 24 bits for the
back-pairing proof to the highlighted archived usenet post. The
steganography would have to be in the form of a textblock of hex that
would be renamed with
steganography tool for jpegs, because google will not archive binary
attachments or no-prose large articles.
If I did THAT, then the usenet message could contain a much larger
hash 128 bits, and likewise I could suffix 128 bits to my anon posts,
for far future resumption of single-topic discussion of highly
sensitive topics (if not outright illegal classified topics and not
merely just sensitive). I think I may start today (a hash of the
message tight-concatenated with a GPG key immediately touching last
'----' line, before hash creation, then redacted for anon posting:
----
D38A 10C2 38F1 C150 BB46 E2F8 7319 2D34
I got skeptical when the post claimed the US forced tire makers to put these chips in, and especially after 9/11/2001.
a tions/files/E6IDSHOWSP/AIAGSTAND_final.pdf I found out that the AIAG was working on this in 2000, and was making major choices for the standard in February 2001. Read slide 40.
So here, https://mows.aiag.org/scriptcontent/event_present
From then on, I find out that tags in tires were a response to warranty fraud, the T.R.E.A.D. act mandating earlier identification of defects, and inventory management. No government conspiracy needed.
Then, common sense began to intrude. For the US governemnt to track my movements from the tags in my tires, two important things have to happen:
1. The government needs sales records that include the tag GUID and my name, and something else. Credit card might do. Address helps also.
2. The government needs to put up readers and some form of near-real-time communication.
Consider the challenges here. At 40MPH, my car is going about 211,200 fph, 58fps... Sound fast doesn't it?
Now if the practical range is 48 inches (TWICE the published range), my vehicle is in range for about 0.8 seconds. Assuming I'm withing 24 inches of the reader, going through the Transpass gate. 40MPH I do through those without trouble.
Read in less than a second? Don't ask me. Ask someone in the business. I bet not.
Also consider that the T.R.E.A.D. act was enacted in 2000. Not in response to the Firestone/Ford problems, which were serious before that. And the T.R.E.A.D. act doesn't even include the word 'VIN'. And the act doesn't per se involve domestic vehicles, but foreign vehicles and components, intending to force carmakers to disclose problems with foreign models that may be related to similar problems with similar domestic production. Good idea. But only the rule-making could twist this into the device the poster claims, and he doesn't post any of the rulemaking that indicates that. Perhaps he should be asked to provide evidence. I suspect the answer will be 'it's secret'.
Sorry, I took a look. His posts don't add up, IMHO. The story about someone getting returning a defective tire to Nordstrom's was more credible than this post. Sorry, DeadChobi, but I need more.
Now, RFID readers on the New York throughways make sense. Most containers have tags now, and many fleet vehicles do also. Might be useful to read tags, spot one registered to a tanker dedicated to hazardous waste, and realize it's headed down the freeway where hazmat is prohibited.
That I expect.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
And the RFID-in-tires was posted anonymously here, and I chose to repost it.
Nice try, though. BUT thanks. My blog broke its previous daily visitor record of 414 and there are still 2 or 3 hrs left before midnite GMT :)
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
This appears to be confirmation that at least Michelin has put RFID chips in tires.
While the phone was likely not altered there is enough space to implate a bug. Head down to any spy museum and see some of the incredibly tiny bugs that the Soviets designed 40 years ago. Now add 40 years of inovation. Most bugs were not much more then a microphone, antenna, battery, with a minuscule transmitter. A cell phone has 3 of those parts already. The trick is that you don't need a great transmitter to listen in on someone. A transmitter can be made with not much more then a single transistor.
If you want a secure - impossible to tap - buy those disposable cell phone.
Buy it with cash and the minute time card, and then dispose the phone after use.
1st, thanks for this info and pointing all this out with links. Awareness of a potential problem is at least a good first step.
:) Thanks!
Now according to your info, it looks like it's already happened and is going to continue. The first thing I thought to ask after reading your posts, was:
Is there an effective passive counter-measure?
Is it possible to disable these chips/tags inside the tires (without destroying the tires)? and if there's no known way to disable the embedded chips, is there some info out there to construct an active jamming device even if it is in violation of FCC or other regulations (I promise strictly for academic/research curiosity)
So-called diagnostic clients are available now for most platforms that do this today (Symbian, PalmOS, WM5, etc) and, for GSM at least, on the SIM card itself if the phone is not capable (USIM, SIM Java Applet, SIM WIBlet, etc).
:) And check out the Open Mobile Alliance (OMA) web site if you want to dig through the standards drafts and RFCs.
These are currently proprietary solutions which only the wireless operator can access through a number of different vendors, but there are now OMA DM draft standards that work in both CDMA and GSM that will be hitting the market within months - leaving a single method for "another" agency other than the wireless operator to be able to hit any new phone with the same software themselves rather than relying on the operator to provide it. This is all IP based (WAP or data connection) after a single SM notication is sent (SMS) - you won't "see" any activity when this is turned on if the DM client honors the UI flag that comes in the first notification, then afterwards you might notice data in/out once in a long while but no indication of what it is. Many phones already have other services (e.g. Blackberry BES connection) so 99.99% of the users will never notice.
Put that in your foil "hat" and smoke it
This comment does not necessarily represent the views and opinions of the author.
Want to know if your phone is doing this while shut off? Turn off your CD player, switch to radio (FM or AM, it doesn't matter, although AM will make it more apparnt), then place your cellphone as close to the head unit as possible. Periodically while powered up you will hear little chirps/blips. If you power the cellphone off, these will stop. If they continue periodically, then your phone is a model which pings the towers while "off" so if you want to make high speed runs on highways without big brother tracking you, yank the battery. Not that I'm one to make high speed runs in rural areas, mind you. . . ;)
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
I won a QT greenphone http://www.trolltech.com/products/qtopia/greenphon e/ at QT DevDays 2006.
:)
It's completly open from the Linux kernel, to Qtopia as a operating system to the user apps. You could even hack the modem device driver if you wanted too.
Unfortunatly it's set up as a developer device and not available to the public, it's GSM (not good coverage where i'm at) and still a bit buggy.
On the upside it's fun to hack and you can be sure the FBI has no backdoors
The telecom industry has been in bet with federal law enforcement in the US since AT LEAST the mid 1990s. It's been mandated by federal law that all telecom systems be readily tappable by the feds. What the fuck do people think that this means?
I'm a bit paranoid when it comes to privacy issues, but things like this prove me right every time.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Parent is fiction. I was just messing with everyone's head. The government doesn't spy on its citizens. Everyone should know that by now. Sell your Alcoa (reynolds wrap) stock. Nothing to see here. Move along. Moo.
Or just set the thing down next to a speaker and listen for the characteristic click-click-buzz when it's transmitting. Some phones are even powerful enough that my car stereo picks it up, or leaks into the signal of a nearby land-line (the PBX phones are work are real sensitive to it).
On occasion I've put my phone down next to an LED flashlight, and when the phone rings the flashlight turns on!
That effect is precisely why I never want to see cell phones allowed on airplanes.
Mod my parent up.
Can parent please go into (a lot) more detail? I want to know what he really thinks about Danny Rathjens (8471).
And now, after the mob's booker found hundreds of calls to the FBI on Joey's phone bill, he sleeps with the fishes.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
this is very old news. Courts ruled over 10 years ago that phone conversations could be intercepted because they do not constitute protected speech. the constitutional rational is that people do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy in their cell phone conversations (legally) therefore, cell-phone conversations are not protected by the 4th amendment.
Fool me once...shame on you, fool me twice...won't be fooled again (our president)
The Israelis killed a guy by installing an explosive in his cell phone. They listened to a call on his phone and after determining it was his voice they sent a signal that detonated the phone.
Yes! I wish people doing conference recordings and interviews were more aware of this effect. So many times I've heard the tell-tale sounds of cell-phone interference while listening to these. But you almost never hear this on professional TV or radio, so they handle it somehow. Anybody know if they have signs in studio greenrooms asking guests to pull their cellphone batteries before they go on?
Just out of curiosity, are there plausible scenarios where a phone that is NOT being used for LI would "ping the tower" while off?
Silly, its there for "Supply Chain Management." Nothing to see here.. move along. (uh sir? Come with me please.)
-- I have a private email server in my basement.
Oh man. Thanks for that. My jaw muscles are hurting since I haven't had a laugh like that since the heyday of adequacy.org. :) You are quite a clever guy (with typing speed I envy) or you have coded a clever rantinsultbot.
I actually read at +3 and give anonymous posts a +1 bonus. I used to be more paranoid and was against using the accounts and continued to post as AC when they were first added. Either I matured a bit or just got lazy. Hrm, actually, I think the ability to filter comments was the reason I finally registered an account; my memory of 8 years ago is hazy.
All they need do is have a sensor that reads your tire IDs at the same tollbooth where they automatically OCR your license plate. Speedpass or the like makes it even easier, but is not needed.
2. The government needs to put up readers and some form of near-real-time communication.
Readers are already there. I suspect near real time isn't needed as much, because these things are most like used for data mining style info, after the fact. (E.g., once you are a suspect, the govt pulls all your vehicular travel records for the past year.)
I don't know much about cells as they are useless to me but if they work the way most other portable devices work when the power button is pushed the device does not actually shut off. It goes into standby mode but power is still being supplied. If this is the case for cells then there is power going through the board and could easily power the mic and transmit. It'd only take a firmware push from the provider to enable such a service if it's not widely available now.
Well, a dentist or hospital x-ray technician could x-ray a tyre or two, work out where something is located, then give it a good burst.
But in the UK, Cameras automatically snare your licence plate so WTF.
Maybe they did this to stop people renting cars, then switching the tyres exchanging plugs, O2 sensors, repaired panels, gearbox or batteries.
A Sprint engineer (a real engineer...the kind that knows everything there is to know about CDMA and whatnot) told me about this years ago during a lunch time conversation we had one day during a week long Sun Microsystems Solaris training class.
He said that it's possible to remotely activate the microphone on CDMA phones even when the phone is to all appearances, 'off'. After the shock wore off, I thought, who's gonna have the balls to use this 'feature' besides the NSA? and how long is it going to stay off the public radar?
Well, now we know. It's been about 4-5 years since that conversation, so how many important people has the NSA or CIA or FBI been listening in on during that time? We (or Congress for that matter) will never know...
...is that you, eh ? Va bene ?
I told you not to stick your face in my business - capisce ?
If you want to look like a smart made man at least provide the decency and respect that you should give the language your speaking, si ?! So... fuhgeddaboutit.
By the way, your truckload of phones did da same thing as you describe - all worthless crap that lights up all the time, fuhgeddaboutit...
Your PC speaker can be a microphone depending upon wether it is sourcing or sinking current, and this is software selectable.
Just what did the most recent software updates from (name you favorite vendor here) do?
Heh, I pay cash for my tires through a swap-meet vendor. Track THIS motherfuckers!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
It never ends, the gov't continues to rountinely violate our Constitutional rights.
They violate the 1st Amendment by caging demonstrators and banning books like "America Deceived" from Amazon. America Deceived (book)
They violate the 2nd Amendment by confiscating guns during Katrina.
They violate the 4th Amendment by conducting warrant-less wiretaps.
They violate the 5th and 6th Amendment by suspending habeas corpus.
They violate the 8th Amendment by torturing.
They violate the entire Constitution by starting 2 illegal wars based on lies and on behalf of a foriegn gov't.