TiVo File Encryption Cracked

An anonymous reader writes "TiVo file encryption has been cracked. Details on the project can be found on the wiki. Mac and Linux users rejoice!" The project page says, "The conversion still requires the valid MAK of the TiVo which recorded the file, so it cannot be used to circumvent their protection, simply to provide the same level of access as is already available on Windows."

Comments

Yay fair use

[spyder913]

This is good news for people who are trying to use content they recorded, like they should be able to.

Re:Yay fair use

[Lumpy]

Funny, I've been doing this with my ReplayTV for years now. I made the decision to go replay instead of Tivo back then and enjoyed full access to my content, no features removed (I still have a commercial skip button that works, no pause ad's and everything works as it should and was promised when I bought it.

Nice to see that TiVO owners can catch up to the rest of us now, but a smarter decision at the beginning would have given you that choice from the start.

if someone figures out how to take a TiVo and install a linux distro on it and a mythtv install I'll be all over buying a Tivo or two to hack, but until then. I'll keep using my networked replays.

Re:Yay fair use

[LordSkippy]

And I've been pulling shows off my Series 1 TiVo for years now too. What's your point?

Re:Yay fair use

[Manchot]

Commercial skip: Still works on the Tivo, except now you have to push a six-button sequence every couple months to get it to work.
Ads: Barely visible. They either appear on the bottom of the Now Playing screen, in which case they're optional, or it takes up an eighth of the screen during the commercial for the product being shown. In essence, the latter are only visible in the short time while you're fast-forwarding, showing you a stationary ad for a couple seconds. Those ads are exceedingly rare anyway. (I saw one for the Wii yesterday during primetime, but that's the first I've seen in weeks.)

It seems to me that many people on Slashdot, the Richard Stallman crowd especially, act like Tivo is most evil company on the planet for a few very minor faults (especially when it comes to DRM). In reality, I like Tivo because while they do pay lip service to the likes of the RIAA and the MPAA, it is only lip service. They didn't actually remove the commerical-skip feature: they just put in an easy workaround to get it. They included DRM to prevent themselves from getting sued, but it is extremely minimal DRM that is easily circumvented by the owner of the Tivo with a single DirectShow filter. If ReplayTV had paid lip service, it might still be around.

In fact, Tivo even does things that most Slashdotters would applaud, but are villainized nonetheless. Though they have a few patents, a lot of it is for innovative hardware. They aren't like some of the patent-whores who patent things invented fifteen years ago: they basically co-invented the DVR, and made a damn good one. They even use Linux and released their code under the GPL. And yet, we still hear Stallman complaining about the fact that the Tivo hardware locks you out from changing the software. What he (and many others) apparently miss is that when you buy a Tivo, you're not buying a general purpose computer: you're buying a DVR. I mean, God forbid that they prevent users from running them out of business by buying the hardware for far less than it costs Tivo to make it and loading MythTV onto it. (Yes, Tivo subsidizes the cost of the hardware, but only because you are agreeing to pay for the service.)

Re:Yay fair use

[jedidiah]

Quite simply, I shouldn't need to indulge in a "hack" that is a well known secret in order to get my PVR to skip ahead 30 seconds. You've just been conditioned to accept this. Nevermind how annoying it is anytime there's a power hit.

It's really quite nice being able to completely power down the MythTV box that sits in my living room. If I do the same to my Tivo, not only does stuff not get recorded but I will have to re-enter that stupid hack to get my 30-second skip back again.

That's not even getting into the fact that any PC in the rest of the house can be a cheap and easy "Tivo" for free, part time, and without needing to maintain another payware Tivo subscription.

How much would 4 Tivo's cost you on a monthly basis?

Re:Yay fair use

[walt-sjc]

I'll respond to this a bit... I have 2 DirectTivo's - a series 1 and a series 2.

I DO like my Tivo, but it is showing it's age. It's slow, and the feature you mention as "commercial skip" isn't (it's a 30 second skip.) I also want the ability to get programs off it (which I'll probably add a cache+net card to do on the S1.) At this point, after using tivo for about 5 years now, I want more. I want more flexibility, speed, features (play MP3's, photos, etc.) and storage. The Tivo has served me well, but it's time for Myth with my modded series 1 behind it to feed it. My noisy myth server with a pile of drives will sit in the nice cool basement, and I'll use some cheap desktops (or maybe even mac minis) on a few front-ends around the house.

Re:Yay fair use

[howardd21]

quote:
if someone figures out how to take a TiVo and install a linux distro on it and a mythtv install

I believe that is called a "PC", you can buy them, or do like I do and just buy the parts you need and build it.

Re:Yay fair use

[Jherek Carnelian]

Commercial skip: Still works on the Tivo, except now you have to push a six-button sequence every couple months to get it to work.

That's not commercial skip. That's 30-second skip.

ReplayTV's commercial skip, like MythTV's commercial skip, figures out what portions of the recorded show are commercials and then automagically skips them on playback. Certain VCR's (I think JVC) had similar functionality, just not as nice since fast-forwarding tape is a lot clunkier than seeking on a file.

Re:Yay fair use

[irving47]

My problems with TiVo:
They have become Microsoftian in that they think they can charge out the butt for inferior service.
TiVo2Go on a Mac? No. Sorry. They'll promise they're working on it for a few years, but it'll take (what will likely be touted as illegal) hacking/cracking to even SLIGHTLY level the field.
All the while, I have my tivo hooked to my network and am therefore not using their dialup lines, (nor could I with voip)
So I'm paying the same price as people using more of their services.
All I get to use are season passes and programming data... for $13/month. $20 if I sign up now and don't want to do a contract..

Re:Yay fair use

[Balthisar]

(My Series 1 didn't have encrypted video, either).

I retired my Series 1 early this year for the same reasons that you mention -- it was getting slow and didn't do everything else that I wanted it to do. So I built my MythTV box where it lives in its closet happily. For front ends, I use Xboxes. For non-HDTV, they're perfect. You can either install Xebian and the MythTV front end (sloooow) or just use XBMC with the XBMXMythTV script. Works well for my purposes.

Given that, I miss some features from my Tivo. Program ratings and suggestions come to mind, but as it is, I have too much of a backlog so its not a deal killer. The Tivo interface was spectacular, and I find myself fiddling with the XBMC remote control configuration and skins in order to bring back some of that Tivo elegance.

Re:Yay fair use

[kmcrober]

To be fair, you're also getting software updates.

Re:Yay fair use

[kmcrober]

How does the software detect a commercial? Is there an underlying signal the machine picks up, or does it go by volume/brightness cues?

Re:Yay fair use

[trix7117]

It's really quite nice being able to completely power down the MythTV box that sits in my living room. If I do the same to my Tivo, not only does stuff not get recorded but I will have to re-enter that stupid hack to get my 30-second skip back again.

Are you saying that if you "completely power down the MythTV box" it somehow continues to record your shows? Are you talking about your master backend machine or a remote frontend? If you're talking about a frontend-only machine, that really isn't the same as turning off the TiVo. Also, does turning the power off on a TiVo (not pulling the power plug or anything) actually stop the box from recording? I haven't had a TiVo in my house for about 5 years (been using MythTV and cable company HD DVRs), but I thought the TiVo would turn itself on and record when your shows come on. I have been using MythTV for around 3 years and am a huge fan, but if you turn the box off, it isn't going to record. There are plenty of advantages of using MythTV over TiVo (the commercial skip and remote frontends you mention being 2), you don't need to be making more up.

Re:Yay fair use

[technos]

They watch the VBI (video blanking interval). When you cut from a show to a commercial, or vice versa, or from one commercial to another, the VBI screams "Hey! New video feed!"..

After it figures out the opening credits for the show from start time, anything that was a cut away and lasts less than 62s is a commercial, and doesn't get shown.

Re:Yay fair use

[trix7117]

I know that MythTV also uses other methods including looking for the network logo which anymore is included on almost every station. I can't speak for ReplayTV, but using MythTV's combination method it probably catches about 90% of commercial breaks properly (and even the ones it misses are not big deal with a 30s skip).

Re:Yay fair use

[HTH NE1]

Also, does turning the power off on a TiVo (not pulling the power plug or anything) actually stop the box from recording? I haven't had a TiVo in my house for about 5 years (been using MythTV and cable company HD DVRs), but I thought the TiVo would turn itself on and record when your shows come on.

TiVo's don't have a power switch. The closest you get is putting it in Standby mode which stops video and audio output. The unit is still on and still records shows and LiveTV. At least, that's true for the standalone units which are what I have, and I use Standby mode to switch between them all the time.

My problems with my TiVo arise from bugs in the latest software update for the cable box, causing it to fail to tune to the correct channel if you try changing it while the time turns over to the next timeslot. And sometimes (twice experienced) spontaneously on the hour without trying to change channels. It's not a TiVo bug; it's a cable company bug to which I'm forced to accept if I want digital cable, or switch to their DVR (that's anticompetitive behavior).

I want an open source cable box with CableCard support and the authority to install a CableCard into any device I see fit, not just those on their accepted list. (I'd get a Series3 HD TiVo but can't justify the expense.)

Re:Yay fair use

[LordKronos]

I've never used it, but as I recall, I believe there is a way to configure MythTV to go to sleep and then wake 5 minutes before the next program is supposed to record. It might require bios support for it. I know my P3-450 BIOS has a setting to wake at a specified time, but I don't know if that has a API to set it via software.

Of course, it has it's downside. You can't remotely log in and schedule programs while it's sleeping, and you can get screwed in the times where the schedule changes suddenly.

Re:Yay fair use

[mrchaotica]

It seems to me that many people on Slashdot, the Richard Stallman crowd especially, act like Tivo is most evil company on the planet for a few very minor faults (especially when it comes to DRM).

The "Richard Stallman crowd" doesn't like TiVo because it violates the spirit of the GPL (although unfortunately not the letter, which is what version 3 is for) by stopping modified code from running. The GPL is not just about being able to see the source code and saying "oh, gee, that's nice;" it's about being able to control your own hardware by running the code you want to run on it.

If TiVo didn't lock down the hardware, or if it didn't use GPL software, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Re:Yay fair use

[makomk]

I know my P3-450 BIOS has a setting to wake at a specified time, but I don't know if that has a API to set it via software.

It probably doesn't. The usual trick is to use nvram-wakeup to edit the onboard CMOS RAM and set the wakeup time that way...

Re:Yay fair use

[CowardWithAName]

Here's an article I read on some website about how MythTV does it:

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/10/30/160249

Regards,
Jon Heese

Re:Yay fair use

[Anonymous Coward]

Commercial skip: Still works on the Tivo, except now you have to push a six-button sequence every couple months to get it to work.

30 second skip has ALWAYS been a "secret". (select play select 3 0 select turns the -> button into a 30 second skip button)

You don't have to push it "every couple months". You have to reenter the code any time the machine reboots (e.g. your power went out). I don't know if there's a hack to the dot-files on the Tivo to permanently enable this. I wish there was (and for the Slow Zero Record Thumbs-Up sorting for Now Playing on series 1s)

Re:Yay fair use

[cayenne8]

I somehow need to have my computer shut off entirely....so that my projector will sense no signal, and shut itself off (I crash to tv, and don't want to waste bulb life)...but, would be nice to somehow have it power on so Myth doesn't miss recording some things that come one early in the morning.

Can that be done somehow in bios?? Never heard of a bios timer before, but, I've honestly never messed with it much.

Re:Yay fair use

[Lord Kano]

What he (and many others) apparently miss is that when you buy a Tivo, you're not buying a general purpose computer: you're buying a DVR.

How do you know what other people buy things for? Once you have bought a product, you're entitled to use it for any legal purpose that you choose.

I mean, God forbid that they prevent users from running them out of business by buying the hardware for far less than it costs Tivo to make it and loading MythTV onto it. (Yes, Tivo subsidizes the cost of the hardware, but only because you are agreeing to pay for the service.)

Since when is the loss leader business model a right? There are some people, admittedly not all, but some people who would willingly pay more for the hardware if they could run whatever software they want on it.

Personally, I don't believe that TiVo is the most evil product/company ever, but they're not heroic either.

LK

Re:Yay fair use

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not going to click on the link, I'll just wait for the dupe story to be submitted.

Re:Yay fair use

[Manchot]

How do you know what other people buy things for? Once you have bought a product, you're entitled to use it for any legal purpose that you choose.

You may not be looking for a DVR, but Tivo's selling a DVR, and they have every right to make the product as they see fit, just as you are entitled to use it for any purpose you choose. You don't have to buy it if you don't want it.

By the way, let me explain in more detail the reason that I make the distinction between "computer" and "DVR." I don't believe that the likes of Intel necessarily have the right to build that "Trusted Computing" nonsense into their processors. You see, in my view, if you make a processor no longer able to run any program the user wants, it is no longer a universal Turing machine, and cannot be called a "computer." That is false advertising. On the other hand, Tivo doesn't advertise their hardware as a computer: they advertise it as a DVR. Its nature doesn't require it to be Turing-complete. It just so happens that it is relatively cheap and simple to use a computer processor inside the DVR, but that's irrelevant, since the functionality doesn't require it.

Re:Yay fair use

[grimarr]

We love TiVo as well, so our second machine was a Toshiba RS-TX20. It's TiVo branded, and has a DVD recorder/player, so we can very easily save shows we really need to keep. I highly recommend it. There's also the TX60, with a bigger disk.

Re:Yay fair use

[Dieppe]

I mean, God forbid that they prevent users from running them out of business by buying the hardware for far less than it costs Tivo to make it and loading MythTV onto it.

Yeah, when will that be available? I'd love to be able to just format the TiVo drive, install MythTV on it... and never have to bother TiVo again! Wooooooooot!

Re:Yay fair use

[walt-sjc]

The DirectTV Tivo is tied to satellite service - the raw MPEG from satellite is stored right on the disk via integrated dual sat tuners. There are no models that have DVD recorders. The RS-TX20 is a stand-alone tivo.

Re:Yay fair use

[unitron]

"And I've been pulling shows off my Series 1 TiVo for years now too."

Assuming that you mean copying them off in digital form that doesn't have to be dumped back into another Tivo to be viewed, and not just dumping out to VCR via the analog outs, I'd like very much to know how to go about doing that. Although I wouldn't mind knowing how to import into a Series 1 too.

Re:Yay fair use

[Anonymous Coward]

Yawn, it was cracked years ago, 6 months after it came out, and demonstrated at the ANU at a Linux pizza night.
BTW the decoder chip has special diagnostic codes, meaning MAK may not be needed at all.

Re:Yay fair use

[Anonymous Coward]

Google for mfs_ftp. It's been around for 3 years, at least.

Re:Yay fair use

[Yer Mom]

Well, if you're using a Mac, you can use TivoTool.

Not sure what the Windows equivalent is, though you can probably still install vserver (from the site above) on your TiVo and pull programmes out that way. Check the TiVo hacking forums at Deal Database for more info.

Re:Yay fair use

[LordSkippy]

http://dvd-create.sourceforge.net/tystudio/tyserve r.shtml

Just need a hacked TiVo to get it up and running. If you don't have a hacked TiVo, see http://www.9thtee.com/tivo-sa1.htm for upgrading your series 1 TiVo.

Re:Yay fair use

[LanMan04]

It's really quite nice being able to completely power down the MythTV box that sits in my living room. If I do the same to my Tivo, not only does stuff not get recorded but I will have to re-enter that stupid hack to get my 30-second skip back again. Are you implying that you MythTV box is able to record TV while powered off??

Re:Yay fair use

[dfghjk]

"The "Richard Stallman crowd" doesn't like TiVo because it violates the spirit of the GPL..." ...according to the Richard Stallman crowd's version of the "spirit". According to the primary authors of the code actually used, it doesn't. There is no "spirit", there is just the license. Those who say otherwise are just whining.

"...by stopping modified code from running."

Tivo doesn't stop modified code from running. It couldn't do it if it tried.

"...it's about being able to control your own hardware..."

No, it's about freedom of the code that is licensed. It has nothing to do with unrelated hardware that's sold to you specifically as a fixed function device.

You'd think, if the intention of the GPL was as plain as people here like to claim it is, that RMS would have figured out how to state that in the first place. There was never any consideration given to extending restrictions to the hardware when the GPL was written. Claims like this are nothing other than revisionist history.

Re:Yay fair use

[martin_b1sh0p]

I want more flexibility, speed, features (play MP3's, photos, etc.)

Huh? Maybe I'm not understanding your request, but Tivo (S2) does play MP3s and it does let you view photos. It's actually pretty cool. And if you install Galleon then you've got all kinds of additional features (like movie times, local even listings, local weather and traffic). Is that not what you were referring to?

Re:Yay fair use

[ubrgeek]

"They included DRM to prevent themselves from getting sued, but it is extremely minimal DRM that is easily circumvented by the owner of the Tivo with a single DirectShow filter."

I'm curious what you mean by this. Last night, I wasn't quite ready to go to sleep so I started watching Sudio 60 on the Sunset Strip. I pulled it up from the "What's Playing" (or whatever it's called) and saw the notice that the producer of the content says I can watch up to five minutes of the show and after that, if I stop play back, then the content automatically gets erased after 24 hours. How is that a fair compromise between the people who bought the unit (before this stupid change in functionality occured) and the "content producers." It seems like a complete sellout. The best part of Tivo these days is the user interface. It simply blows away anything commercially available (althought I can't wait to see what Apple delivers with iTV.) I was quite pissed that I either had to watch it all or possibly watch nothing. So if there's a way around that (short of dumping it to video tape) I'd like to hear it ...

Re:Yay fair use

[mrchaotica]

Tivo doesn't stop modified code from running. It couldn't do it if it tried.

You mean I can replace the TiVo software with my own version, and still use it as a TiVo? That's news to me! Do you have a link?

You'd think, if the intention of the GPL was as plain as people here like to claim it is, that RMS would have figured out how to state that in the first place. There was never any consideration given to extending restrictions to the hardware when the GPL was written. Claims like this are nothing other than revisionist history.

RMS always cared about hardware -- the whole damn thing was started over a printer driver, remember? He just didn't see the hardware-refusing-to-run-modified-versions issue coming.

Re:Yay fair use

[Lord Kano]

You may not be looking for a DVR, but Tivo's selling a DVR, and they have every right to make the product as they see fit, just as you are entitled to use it for any purpose you choose. You don't have to buy it if you don't want it.

You're dancing, fanboy.

You see, in my view, if you make a processor no longer able to run any program the user wants, it is no longer a universal Turing machine, and cannot be called a "computer."

Intel doesn't make computers. Intel makes ICs & microprocessors. Intel has every right to build in any crippling technology that they want to and still call them microprocessors. Just as one is free to not buy a TiVo, one is also free to not buy a computer that is based on "Trusted Computing" technology.

On the other hand, Tivo doesn't advertise their hardware as a computer: they advertise it as a DVR.

Albeit one that runs a computer's operating system on hobbled hardware.

LK

Re:Yay fair use

[Manchot]

Really? I think that you just made that story up. Here's why:
1. I had no such message when I watched Studio 60 on my Tivo last night.
2. Anyone who actually owns a Tivo would know that the list is called "Now Playing," because it's placed very prominently all over the place.
3. The only time that the Macrovision flag was used was a year or so ago on some syndicated King of the Hill episodes in the New York area, which created a huge backlash. Tivo alleged that it was accidental, and it's never been documented by anyone since.

Don't make things up, especially when they're easily falsified.

Re:Yay fair use

[I(rispee_I(reme]

have you tried either setting your tivo's clock ahead by one minute and/or setting your season passes to start recording one minute before the shows start?

seems either of those would circumvent the cable box's screwup, but i'm not sure if tivo lets you set the clock manually or if it does so over the network...

Re:Yay fair use

[Manchot]

Intel doesn't make computers. Intel makes ICs & microprocessors.

Considering that I'm a graduating senior in EE whose focus is in device electronics and have actually made an IC, I should think that I know that. :) Just as a point of clarification, I was using the word "computer" in its most general sense: a Turing-complete device which can execute a series of instructions. My argument is that something which is not Turing-complete (such as something with the Trusted Computing architecture) cannot legally be called a "computer." That is, it would be false advertising, and calling it that would put you in violation of the FTC Act (in the US at least).

Re:Yay fair use

[HTH NE1]

The TiVo's clock is set according to a network time server and is not manually adjustable. I've thought about setting up a store-and-forward device to delay the TiVo's IR emission by 2-5 seconds, but the box has crashed just from being parked on HBO when the data changed without trying to change channels. I've thought about putting a unidirectional trap on the line so the box couldn't poll for the data every minute (I'd gladly sacrifice PPV and other *-demand programming), but then they'd probably cut me off for suspicion of stealing premium channels.

I have adjusted Season Passes to start and end one minute earlier and later, but even with clipping that can be problematic for back-to-back programs on different channels, and shows scheduled to start one minute before or after the hour complicates matters further. It's worse on the Series1 as it will never support clipping of back-to-back shows.

Re:Yay fair use

[Mr2001]

The closest equivalent is probably TyTool. It doesn't have the automatic transfer or streaming features, but it does have an editor (to cut out commercials), TY/VOB/MPG output, and simple DVD authoring.

Re:Yay fair use

[ubrgeek]

What the hell are you talking about? Why would I waste my time "making things up"?? As for "Anyone who actually owns a Tivo" I think the correct response is "Anyone who is such a dork that they memorize everything that's on a screen." Furthermore, Comcast's "On Demand" shows for CBS are free. NBC's cost $0.99. It's not in their interest to grant you unlimited viewing as they want to sell the show either time-limited on On Demand or via iTunes.

Re:Yay fair use

[permawired]

There is also this alternative... http://www.snapstream.com/products/beyondtv/defaul t.asp?a=96&gclid=CJnY_IL_-4gCFRBcSgodBxzeqA

Re:Yay fair use

[Mr2001]

You don't even need Galleon for most of those additional features. My Music, Photos & More menu has these already:

Yahoo Photos, Weather, Traffic
Browse & Buy Movie Tickets (Fandango)
Live365
Podcaster
plus a couple others.

Re:Yay fair use

[Mr2001]

I had no such message when I watched Studio 60 on my Tivo last night.

Unless you're getting your TV from the same source as him, this means nothing. King of the Hill was flagged because some engineer turned the flag on when he shouldn't have; he made a mistake. Who's to say someone, in some part of the country, didn't make the same mistake with Studio 60 this week?

Tivo alleged that it was accidental, and it's never been documented by anyone since.

It sounds like the person you're responding to is trying to document it. Of course it'll never be "documented" again in your mind if you're going to ignore every report!

Re:Yay fair use

[ubrgeek]

Just got off the phone with Tivo and Mr2001 is right: Their Level 3 support said that occasionally the flag does get set, but it's a cable company issue, rather than Tivo (or, more accurately, he implied it was a cable company issue.) He said they've gotten reports of it happening with "Grey's Anatomy." He said when they get multiple complaints or calls, they reach out to the provider to fix the problem, but in this case, it was the first he had heard of it, so they made a note, but wouldn't escalate it to Comcast. He also asked if I had cable or satellite, which I thought was interesting. Regardless, good to know I don't have to stay up late again *rin*

Re:Yay fair use

[Manchot]

It would be one thing to memorize it, but when it's put in giant letters at the top of the screen, I would think it to be difficult to not remember it.

Re:Yay fair use

[dfghjk]

"You mean I can replace the TiVo software with my own version, and still use it as a TiVo? That's news to me! Do you have a link?"

Tivo can stop any unapproved software, modified GPL code or anything else, from running on its hardware, but it cannot stop you from running any of its GPL'ed code. You are free to develop your own DVR using their code.

"RMS always cared about hardware -- the whole damn thing was started over a printer driver, remember? He just didn't see the hardware-refusing-to-run-modified-versions issue coming."

No, he hasn't. All RMS cares about is freedom to have source code to software. It's only recently that hardware technology exists that limits software. As I recall, RMS originally got miffed when some of his fellow programmers took lab software, went commercial with it, and stopped providing him access to code. It had nothing to do with hardware til now. If it did, there would already be hardware restrictions in the GPL.

None of this matters. When the GPL itself fails in its mission, the GPL zealots involve the "spirit" as if they are qualified to speak for the coders whos code was used. Regardless of what RMS says, the linux kernel developers, as a group, support Tivo's usage. In my mind, that's what matters.

Re:Yay fair use

[mrchaotica]

Tivo can stop any unapproved software, modified GPL code or anything else, from running on its hardware, but it cannot stop you from running any of its GPL'ed code. You are free to develop your own DVR using their code.

What part of "that defeats the whole point" do you not understand?!

No, he hasn't. All RMS cares about is freedom to have source code to software. It's only recently that hardware technology exists that limits software. As I recall, RMS originally got miffed when some of his fellow programmers took lab software, went commercial with it, and stopped providing him access to code. It had nothing to do with hardware til now. If it did, there would already be hardware restrictions in the GPL.

You're wrong. Here's a quote from "About the GNU Project":

I had already experienced being on the receiving end of a nondisclosure agreement, when someone refused to give me and the MIT AI lab the source code for the control program for our printer. (The lack of certain features in this program made use of the printer extremely frustrating.) So I could not tell myself that nondisclosure agreements were innocent. I was very angry when he refused to share with us; I could not turn around and do the same thing to everyone else.

What you're arguing about "developing your own PVR" is just stupid. Do you think RMS would have been happy if the company gave him the code but wouldn't actually let him use it? No, because the whole point was to be able to make full use of the hardware he already had!

GNU software exists to give you control over your computer, not some hypothetical computer you may or may not have in the future. If it doesn't run on the hardware you already own, it's useless!

Regardless of what RMS says, the linux kernel developers, as a group, support Tivo's usage. In my mind, that's what matters.

Then they should have used the BSD license instead. Letting people take advantage of your software in their own products without ensuring the Four Freedoms -- which is exactly what TiVo is doing -- is what that license is for.

Re:Yay fair use

[MrResistor]

I'm a big fan of Tivo, but claiming they co-invented the DVR is just plain nonsense.

There are certainly other things about how a Tivo does it's thing that are/were innovative, and they've made a DVR product that is affordable to the general public, but I myself have serviced DVRs based around a 486 running WinNT3.1.

Re:Yay fair use

[walt-sjc]

The DirectTV version of the tivo S2 does not. DirectTivo != Standalone Tivo.

Re:Yay fair use

[martin_b1sh0p]

Oops. I missed that. You are correct. It's really a bummer that the other "Tivos" aren't as nice as the standalone units.

Re:Yay fair use

[dfghjk]

"What part of "that defeats the whole point" do you not understand?!"

What part of "the hardware isn't covered by the GPL don't you understand?!

"You're wrong. Here's a quote from "About the GNU Project":..."

They can publish whatever propaganda they like, but a close friend of mine was once the x86 maintainer for GCC, chosen by RMS himself, and he tells me a different story. Nevertheless, even in your "version" RMS wanted source to a driver; access to hardware wasn't a problem.

"What you're arguing about "developing your own PVR" is just stupid. Do you think RMS would have been happy if the company gave him the code but wouldn't actually let him use it? No, because the whole point was to be able to make full use of the hardware he already had!"

RMS wasn't trying to modify the printer, only the software used to access it. In the Tivo case, users want to modify the function of the device itself. The GPL doesn't cover the Tivo device, only the firmware inside it.

Look at it this way, if you obtain an application that is released under the GPL then you can use the source to produce a different app as you choose. If you buy a Tivo, you can use the source to produce a different Tivo as you choose. That doesn't entitle you to modify the original Tivo since it's not covered by the GPL.

"GNU software exists to give you control over your computer, not some hypothetical computer you may or may not have in the future. If it doesn't run on the hardware you already own, it's useless!"

The Tivo hardware isn't a computer. It's a fixed function device that you are not allowed to modify or extend. It is also not covered under the GPL. Furthermore, the GPL doesn't exist to give you control over your computer, it's to give you freedoms over the software you use. It's up to you to provide the computer to run them on (of which the Tivo doesn't qualify).

"Then they should have used the BSD license instead."

Why? Clearly the GPLv2 worked satisfactorially for them and they AND RMS recognize that Tivo has complied with the license.

"Letting people take advantage of your software in their own products without ensuring the Four Freedoms -- which is exactly what TiVo is doing -- is what that license is for."

Tivo is not doing that and both Linus and RMS agree. I don't expect you ever to get it however. Whine, whine, whine...

All of Tivo's development is available in source form. I think that's generous, in the "spirit" of the GPL and compliant with it, and it's fully available for you to develop your own PVR software with. What's the problem? Oh yeah, Tivo didn't give you subsidized hardware to do your development on. Boo hoo.

Re:Yay fair use

[mrchaotica]

Nevertheless, even in your "version" RMS wanted source to a driver; access to hardware wasn't a problem.

Right, but if it had been, RMS would have complained about that too.

RMS wasn't trying to modify the printer, only the software used to access it. In the Tivo case, users want to modify the function of the device itself. The GPL doesn't cover the Tivo device, only the firmware inside it.

No, in the TiVo case users want to modify the software used on it!

The Tivo hardware isn't a computer. It's a fixed function device that you are not allowed to modify or extend.

The Hell it isn't! The TiVo runs Linux. That automatically means it has the necessary hardware to be a general-purpose computer. Therefore, it is one! And since that is the case, if I buy it I should have the right to modify it however I want. And since the GPL is designed to ensure I have that right also, it's doubly ridiculous that I can't do it because of stupid, petty, asinine, artificial restrictions put in by TiVo, inc.!

Furthermore, the GPL doesn't exist to give you control over your computer, it's to give you freedoms over the software you use.

And what does this software run on, pray tell? A computer! And can you really have the freedoms over the software without control of the hardware? No! Therefore, it is necessary for the GPL to ensure you have control over the computer as a whole, or else it doesn't work.

AND RMS recognize that Tivo has complied with the license.

I never disputed that! Look, you originally complained about the "Richard Stallman crowd" not liking TiVo; I'm just explaining why that is. TiVo inc. is complying with the GPL, but that doesn't mean it isn't acting like an asshole. Luckily, the GPL version 3 will fix this kind of problem in the future (even though it's too late to stop TiVo since Linus won't change the license of the kernel).

Tivo is not [failing to allow the Four Freedoms] and both Linus and RMS agree. I don't expect you ever to get it however. Whine, whine, whine...

On the contrary, I understand perfectly; stop putting words in my mouth! No, Linus and RMS agree that TiVo is complying with the GPL v.2 as written. The problem is that the GPL v.2 as written fails to guarantee the Four Freedoms in this situation. This is a bug in the license. RMS realizes this, which is why he's rewriting the damn thing!

I think that's generous, in the "spirit" of the GPL and compliant with it, and it's fully available for you to develop your own PVR software with.

It is compliant with the letter, but not the spirit. If it were compliant with the spirit, RMS wouldn't have felt the need to make GPL v.3.

Oh yeah, Tivo didn't give you subsidized hardware to do your development on. Boo hoo.

First of all, AFAIK TiVo doesn't subsidize the hardware unless you sign a service contract, which would still apply regardless of what you do to the software. TiVo gets its money either way; there's no reason to disallow modding. Second, we're subsidizing TiVo by providing it with free software! Why shouldn't we, in return, deserve to retain the ability to mod the hardware?

Re:Yay fair use

[dfghjk]

"Right, but if it had been, RMS would have complained about that too."

At least you recognize your printer argument is meaningless.

"No, in the TiVo case users want to modify the software used on it!"

So what? Tivo is not obligated to allow that.

"The Hell it isn't! The TiVo runs Linux."

The Hell it is! There are watches and phones that run Linux too, but they aren't computers either.

"And since that is the case, if I buy it I should have the right to modify it however I want."

And there you show your true stripes. You have no respect for the consideration of anyone other than you. It is your right to do whatever you want within the law, but it is also within the rights of the manufacturer to do the same. Tivo is not selling a computer, they are selling a subsidized fixed function device. You aren't obligated to buy their device if you don't like it. Instead you can choose for their competitors, none of which offer you what you want either.

"And since the GPL is designed to ensure I have that right also, it's doubly ridiculous that I can't do it because of stupid, petty, asinine, artificial restrictions put in by TiVo, inc.!"

Of course, the GPL doesn't apply to the Tivo hardware, whatever juvenile names you choose to call it. The more you talk, the more you whine.

"And what does this software run on, pray tell? A computer!"

Yes, a computer YOU provide which is not covered or even considered by the GPL.

"And can you really have the freedoms over the software without control of the hardware? No!"

No, so you shouldn't buy a computer that doesn't allow it. The Tivo device isn't one of those.

"I'm just explaining why that is. TiVo inc. is complying with the GPL, but that doesn't mean it isn't acting like an asshole."

Who are you to speak for the software community? Tivo complies with the license and many of the actual authors of the code have come out in favor of their usage. You're the one arguing the absurd position.

"On the contrary, I understand perfectly; stop putting words in my mouth!"

Perhaps you should stop insisting that the DVR you (perhaps) bought is actually a computer.

"No, Linus and RMS agree that TiVo is complying with the GPL v.2 as written."

Haha, your comments get even more absurd. There is no other GPLv2 other than the one "as written".

"This is a bug in the license. RMS realizes this, which is why he's rewriting the damn thing!"

Yes, RMS realizes that Tivo is right, you are wrong, and it is one of the reasons he is revising the license. It is clear that RMS doesn't want Tivo doing what they did. He does not speak for the Linux developers though.

"It is compliant with the letter, but not the spirit. If it were compliant with the spirit, RMS wouldn't have felt the need to make GPL v.3."

RMS doesn't define the "spirit. The code used wasn't even code RMS participated in. There is no "spirit" beyond what the "letter" of the license says.

"TiVo gets its money either way; there's no reason to disallow modding."

How do you know? Making more crap up?

"Second, we're subsidizing TiVo by providing it with free software! Why shouldn't we, in return, deserve to retain the ability to mod the hardware?"

There you go claiming you speak for the software developers again? You aren't part of "we" and those who are are happy with what Tivo has done. If they weren't then they shouldn't have released their work under the GPL. Tivo used that software in compliance with the license. You say you understand that yet you prove time and again that you don't.

"Why shouldn't we, in return, deserve to retain the ability to mod the hardware?"

Because, as you've been told countless times, the hardware isn't covered by the GPL and there is essentially no history of being able to modify such hardware. The question that should be asked is why you now feel entitled to mod devices that you've never in the past been able to.

Possibility for series3 HD Tivo?

[adam]

After reading the linked "details" article, I am at a loss to tell whether or not this will work with HD-Tivo. I've wanted to buy one of these for a long time (and they've recently hit the market, but at $700ish I can't justify the cost unless I have some way to archive my programing (and Tivo2Go is not offered for HDcontent). HD-DVD and BluRay are both non-starters at the moment, whereas HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, etc all play assloads of HD content all the time (including many movies that aren't out on DVD yet, as well as their own series such as Deadwood, Dexter, etc).

So can anyone tell me if this actually brightens the prospects of being able to use a series 3 HD Tivo to record HD shows and then archive them offline for storage? I did RTFA but the jargon about headers and address bytes and whatnot got a little heavy for me.

Re:Possibility for series3 HD Tivo?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, this just applies to standard def content from a Series 2 TiVo. You must use the Home Media Option to get the files off the TiVo top begin with. The Series 3 TiVo (the HD version) does not support the Home Media Option.

Re:Possibility for series3 HD Tivo?

[Anonymous Coward]

After reading the linked "details" article, I am at a loss to tell whether or not this will work with HD-Tivo. I've wanted to buy one of these for a long time (and they've recently hit the market, but at $700ish I can't justify the cost

Amazon's third party sellers are showing $660 now. After Christmas, the price might even get down to the mid-500s for those lucky enough to order from the cheapest seller before he's out of stock. And if the DRM is a major annoyance, as the reviews suggest, one might even start seeing very cheap used items.

Re:Possibility for series3 HD Tivo?

[MBCook]

It won't. Series 3 do not have the necessary feature enabled because Cable Labs won't let them (yet). Look for it in a future release (if hell freezes over).

For getting video off a Series 3, I worry that it will take an external drive (once they enable THAT) and then get the files that way.

I say all this as a Series 3 owner who, really, doesn't have a ton of use for extracting video.

In short: Series 3 need not apply.

Re:Possibility for series3 HD Tivo?

[Macrat]

You've already paid for an expensive HD TV and the extra charges for the HD channels.

Now you are going to cry over the cost of the HD Tivo?

Re:Possibility for series3 HD Tivo?

[jedidiah]

Yup. A HD TV isn't expensive really. Anymore HD is just a standard feature with any TV that's a decent large screen TV for watching movies. All of that progressive DVD content will be more than adequately cool. You don't even need to futz with the HD channels (payware or otherwise).

Infact, when stacked up next to a nice progressive DVD those HD channels aren't that hot anyways. Even when not compared to good DVD's in a side by side comparison those HD channels aren't that impressive.

Many people don't have the visual acuity to tell the difference.

Re:Possibility for series3 HD Tivo?

[InsaneGeek]

Either you have a really crappy HD input signal, you don't have your TV calibrated correctly (get a video essentials/avia DVD), something else is bad (cables, malfunctioning part, etc), or you have a smaller TV and you are not sitting close to it; because I've never known anybody to say that it's not really that different when seeing the actual difference. (most often it's because they have their TV calibrated to make 408i signals to look better, which unfortunately conversely makes their HD signals look bad)

Re:Possibility for series3 HD Tivo?

[Anonymous Coward]

Amazon's third party sellers are showing $660 now. After Christmas, the price might even get down to the mid-500s...

In case anybody doesn't know, if you buy before Dec 31, you can transfer (for $200) a lifetime subscription from an existing Tivo (and get 1 year subscription on the old Tivo 'free'). www.tivo.com/vip

Re:Possibility for series3 HD Tivo?

[HTH NE1]

Series 3 do not have the necessary feature enabled because Cable Labs won't let them (yet). Look for it in a future release (if hell freezes over).

If it does become enabled, it will be an updated version that has been hardened against this method, and possibly restricted to sharing only between other Series3 units. I'd also expect existing Series2 units to get another update to defeat this method. Series1 units aren't getting any updates and don't support TiVoToGo anyway, so they're a non-issue.

Also keep in mind that there are likely taggants in the data that will identify the TiVo service number of the unit that recorded the show, so I wouldn't go sharing these decrypted files with anyone unless I wanted all TiVos in my home boatanchored. (They may be generous by only canceling the service on the Series2 units.)

Re:Possibility for series3 HD Tivo?

[swb]

My understanding is that S3 units utilize the same technique as DTivos, recording the digital bitstream off the wire direct to disk; replay is basically feeding the hardware decoder, which in the case of the S3 is part of the cable tuner. This would be much simpler and easier to do than decoding even a SD digital channel and re-encoding it, let alone a HD channel.

What confuses me about this, though, is that the units must still have A-D conversion ability to record analog channels, which kind of makes me wonder about what they're really doing for HD recording and if they're transcoding or not.

Re:Possibility for series3 HD Tivo?

[ncc74656]

Infact, when stacked up next to a nice progressive DVD those HD channels aren't that hot anyways. Even when not compared to good DVD's in a side by side comparison those HD channels aren't that impressive.

Maybe if you're watching downrezzed HD from the RF output of your cable box through a balun and into the 300-ohm VHF input on the 19" TV your parents bought 30 years ago (the one whose tuners make a loud clunking noise as you turn the knob to change channels), it's not that impressive. Even on my 30" LCD, though, the difference between HD and non-HD is like night and day.

Re:Possibility for series3 HD Tivo?

[MBCook]

You're right about being like DTiVos. That is exactly how DTiVos work, as well as how the TiVo works on the digital channels (HDTV included). Analog channels are still recorded with an A2D unit so you can choose quality. There are technically 6 tuners in the box (2 over the air HDTV, 2 analog/cable, 2 digital cable).

Cable labs won't certify the thing for recording digital content and HDTV, but I don't see why they couldn't have enabled multi-room viewing for analog shows, but I'm not surprised. I'm also surprised you can't use it as a view-only box for watching shows off of TiVo series 2 units.

I guess they'd rather do it all the way than confuse people with a half-implementation. Of course, this is all Cable Lab's and DRM's fault because they law was written to give them that permission to hold features like this indefinitely.

Re:Possibility for series3 HD Tivo?

[MBCook]

I agree. I expect the next version of the TiVo software for Series 2 (whether 8.2 or 9.0 or whatever) will break this, and they'll release a new version of the Windows software. I'm not sure how they'd tag the video that wouldn't be easily strippable, but that really doesn't matter to me as at most I would use this for watching sitcoms on my iPod.

Re:Possibility for series3 HD Tivo?

[powerlord]

So can anyone tell me if this actually brightens the prospects of being able to use a series 3 HD Tivo to record HD shows and then archive them offline for storage? I did RTFA but the jargon about headers and address bytes and whatnot got a little heavy for me.

I know others have responded, but I'll throw my own $0.02 in also :)

This doesn't affect the Series 3 units, since they don't have video sharing turned on yet.
What this DOES allow is the decryption of .tivo files on other platforms besides Windows (OS X and Linux for instance).
If the Series 3 DOES get Tivo2Go and/or Multi-RoomViewing at some point, then this could help decrypt those video files on non-windows platforms.

All of this is assuming the format isn't hardened/changed (which it probably will be, even for Series 2 units).

On the lighter side, there are rumors that the eSata port on the Series 3's will be turned on "real soon" which would allow you to connect an external drive, and have it pair to the internal one. That could potentially expand your recording capacity quite a bit (without breaking the warranty as swapping out the internal drive would). I hear tell there are even multi-drive eSata enclosures.

Re:Possibility for series3 HD Tivo?

[tfoss]

Infact, when stacked up next to a nice progressive DVD those HD channels aren't that hot anyways. Even when not compared to good DVD's in a side by side comparison those HD channels aren't that impressive.

If it's good HD, that is just not true. Sure, for poorly encoded, or lower bit-rate transcoded stuff that may be so, but check out PBS-HD and tell me it's not better.

-Ted

Re:Possibility for series3 HD Tivo?

[bigberk]

As you point out, HD TV may be marginally more "beautiful". But really the HDTV hype and rollout has to do with a media industry's effort to plug the remaining analog hole. Once a critical mass of consumers are able to handle DRM protected digital TV (as HDTV allows), then the justification will exist to remove unprotected analog signals. A lot of you people are being suckered. Just watch, the filings with the FCC will begin. "There are enough digital receivers now" they'll say, no need for non-DRM TV.

Re:Possibility for series3 HD Tivo?

[jedidiah]

...all technical burdens placed on the end user. The ultimate source is irrelevant.

If NO ONE wants to provide TV service that knocks my knickers off then HD is overhyped. The theoretical possibilities are irrelevant.

i've been copying files for a while off mine

[Anonymous Coward]

whats the news? i've been doing this for a while, they come to the pc in a proprietary format and then i use tshow to clean them up. I'm using a series 1.

Re:i've been copying files for a while off mine

[NSIM]

Apples & Oranges, the data you get from the disk on a Series 1 is no-DRM, unencrypted marginally proprietary MPEG-2, the stuff you get from a series 2 via Tivo to Go is DRMed and not easy to un-DRM, so you need a TIVO-annointed software component to read it, this is about removing the TIVO-annointed requirement ;-)

Re:i've been copying files for a while off mine

[Anonymous Coward]

thanks for clearing that up.. :)

No it hasn't.

[Anonymous Coward]

It hasn't been "cracked", since it still requires your Media Access Key to decode the video.

Re:No it hasn't.

[pegr]

It hasn't been "cracked", since it still requires your Media Access Key to decode the video.
 
Remember what Bruce says kids: In the classic encryption scenerio, A(lice) encrypts her message to B(ob) to protect it from C(harles). With DRM, Bob and Charles are the same person!

Re:No it hasn't.

[mrsbrisby]

It hasn't been "cracked", since it still requires your Media Access Key to decode the video.

Yes it has. The MAK isn't the key to the encrypted stream- the MAK is what's printed on the System Information page in the TiVO.

This defeats TiVO's DRM that was used to prevent Linux and Mac users from watching shows on their PC.

Please stop replying if you have no idea what you're talking about.

Re:No it hasn't.

[Sparohok]

The MAK isn't the key to the encrypted stream-

Yes it is... RTFWiki.

This defeats TiVO's DRM that was used to prevent Linux and Mac users from watching shows on their PC.

TiVo's DRM prevented Linux and Mac users from watching their shows only as a side effect. The intent of TiVo's DRM is to prevent people who don't know the MAK from watching the content.

Please stop replying if you have no idea what you're talking about.

Ahem. :)

This is a nice piece of reverse engineering, but no encryption scheme was cracked.

Re:No it hasn't.

[mrsbrisby]

The MAK isn't the key to the encrypted stream-

Yes it is... RTFWiki.

No it isn't. read the wiki yourself. I've been following it for months.

The key is produced through a (previously) unknown tranformation involving the MAK. Since the MAK is published, as well as the cipher, as well as the protocol.

TiVo's DRM prevented Linux and Mac users from watching their shows only as a side effect. The intent of TiVo's DRM is to prevent people who don't know the MAK from watching the content.

I don't know what the intent of Tivo's DRM was, and I strongly suspect you don't either.

The DRM as implemented couldn't do what you say it was intended to do- people regularly rip from their tivo and show the results to people who don't have the MAK.

This is a nice piece of reverse engineering, but no encryption scheme was cracked.

Its a wonderful piece of reverse engineering, but if you're nitpicking that people didn't break the turing cipher, I've got news for you: Nobody had to. They broke the method of creating the key.

Re:No it hasn't.

[SoapBox17]

Eve must be wondering who the hell Charles is....

Re:No it hasn't.

[pegr]

Carol's noy happy either...

Re:No it hasn't.

[unitron]

"Carol's noy happy either..."

Those of us of a certain age are also wondering how Ted feels about all of this. :-)

Re:No it hasn't.

[apt142]

Remember what Bruce says kids: In the classic encryption scenerio, A(lice) encrypts her message to B(ob) to protect it from C(harles). With DRM, Bob and Charles are the same person!

Actually with DRM Bob is your hardware/software and Charles is the user. Charles owns Bob and is responsible for Bob's actions. DRM is an attempt to subvert the relationship between Charles and Bob by getting Bob to not tell Charles about certain things that Bob is doing.

I dislike nitpicking analogies but it's important to know the distinction. Bob (for good or bad) should disclose all of his information to Charles. And any attempt by Alice, Ted, Carol and the rest of the gang to subvert Bob is an issue.

DMCA?

[Thunderstruck]

If I recall, the DMCA prohibits trafficing in technology to bypass security measures on copyrighted media put in place by the owners of that copyright.

The limitations on Tivo are copy protections put in place by a third party, not the owner. (I can still record the same programs on my betamax with no trouble.) Have I missed something?

Re:DMCA?

[Aadain2001]

IANAL, but from my understanding it can summed up as: the MPAA/ABC/CBS/etc can't sue them for this (they didn't put the protection in place), but TiVo certainly can!

Re:DMCA?

[Jerf]

Why "recall"? This is the Internet. Look it up.

Sec. 1201. Circumvention of copyright protection systems

            `(a) VIOLATIONS REGARDING CIRCUMVENTION OF TECHNOLOGICAL MEASURES- (1)(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. The prohibition contained in the preceding sentence shall take effect at the end of the 2-year period beginning on the date of the enactment of this chapter.

I don't see any reference to who is adding the "protection". This is probably a DMCA violation.

'Course, unless you run Linux but have never watched a DVD, you've pretty much already opened that door.

IANAL, but while I'm sure you could argue either way, I'm pretty sure that the better argument is that the DMCA is intended to allow non-owners to add protection, as TiVo is here, for exactly the sort of things TiVo is doing.

Re:DMCA?

[ahknight]

It's not TiVo's media. You are, however, breaking the license agreement for the service if you do this and they can disconnect you. That's about it. (IANAL, either)

Re:DMCA?

[cfulmer]

Well, the relevant part of the DMCA is this:

'a technological measure "effectively controls access to a work" if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, requires the application of information, or a process or a treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain access to the work.'

(that's 17 U.S.C. 1201(a)(3)(B)). Under your reading, where it says "with the authority of the copyright owner," that means that the copyright owner has to approve the encryption being put in place. Since I don't think Tivo has agreements with all the media companies, I don't think this applies. Also, I don't think Tivo adds anything to the media, so it doesn't have any copyright in it. So, under this section, you're right.

But, there's another section, 17 U.S.C. 1201(b) which says that you cannot traffic in something that circumvents "a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof." And, here, it does that if it "prevents, restricts, or otherwise limits the exercise of a right of a copyright owner under this title." That's a bit odd to read -- the expression "a right of a copyright owner" is a term of art which basically means "the things only copyright owners can do." The end result is that you cannot traffic in circumvention devices, even if they circumvent something that was not put there with the agreement of the copyright owner, so long as it keeps you from doing something that only the copyright owner can do (i.e. *copying*).

I think that the end result of this odd situation is that people can circumvent the encryption on the Tivo, but can't provide a tool for others to do the same thing.

[See a lawyer before you rely on this.]

Re:DMCA?

[Orange Crush]

Not if it's technology to bypass security measures in order to achieve interoperability.

Granted, there's been a few conflicting precedents (DeCSS/libdvdcss) but I think it's well within consumer's rights to watch Tivo-recorded video on whatever OS they darn well please. And on that topic . . . why doesn't Tivo already have a Linux client? It's the native OS on the box itself, after all . . . then again . . . Tivo hasn't shown itself to be particularly supportive of the community that created the base software it depends on. The boxes won't run unsigned code.

Re:DMCA?

[Anonymous Coward]

Legal or not, I think you are forgetting the fact that the **AA does not care about the law.

Re:DMCA?

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the rest of it:

(3) As used in this subsection--
(A) to "circumvent a technological measure" means to descramble a scrambled work, to decrypt an encrypted work, or otherwise to avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate, or impair a technological measure, without the authority of the copyright owner; and
(B) a technological measure "effectively controls access to a work" if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, requires the application of information, or a process or a treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain access to the work.

TiVO is performing the encryption, NOT the copyright holder. It's not at all clear that that constitutes "effective control" for the purposes of the statue.

Re:DMCA?

[acklenx]

No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. Call me crazy, but if you can circumvent it, then it doesn't seem like it effectively controls access. So you can crack anything that you can crack, duh.

Re:DMCA?

[Jerf]

Call me crazy, but if you can circumvent it, then it doesn't seem like it effectively controls access.

You'll have to take that up with Congress and the Supreme Court.

cfulmer's sibling to my post is a much more interesting counterpoint.

A further interesting point is that while TiVo may not have directly contracted with the media companies (and maybe they did, I just don't remember and if they do have a formal contract none of my internet searches could find it), they clearly added this protection to placate them, and it's pretty clear the media companies wouldn't approve of this.

Re:DMCA?

[evilviper]

'Course, unless you run Linux but have never watched a DVD, you've pretty much already opened that door.

There's every reason to believe dvdcss (and this software) is perfectly legal under the DMCA, as it falls under "interoperability":

`(3) The information acquired through the acts permitted under paragraph (1), and the means permitted under paragraph (2), may be made available to others if the person referred to in paragraph (1) or (2), as the case may be, provides such information or means solely for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other than this section.

Re:DMCA?

[OldManAndTheC]

In this case, the author is using the alternate meaning of effectively, which is to say, "for all practical purposes." So one might also write it as "a technological measure that has the effect of controlling access to a work blah blah..." The author may have wanted to imply a vague concept of access control, for whatever reason.

Re:DMCA?

[Aadain2001]

They can definitely shut off your service (thus turning your TiVo into a brain dead PVR), but I still think they are the ones who can sue under the DMCA. While the content (TV show, movie, etc) is not their legal property, they did produce the file that exists on the TiVo and on the user's computer once transfered. The whole reason for the encryption was to prevent the files being shared, thus a form of copyright protection. It's a stretch, but with the current US legal system it's not hard to see TiVo wining a case like this.

Re:DMCA?

[AusIV]

it's pretty clear the media companies wouldn't approve of this.

Is it? We're not talking about music or (new) movies, we're talking about things that are being aired on TV. Every once in a while I'll miss an episode of one of my favorite shows and torrent it. A case point: The TV show Day Break is airing the entire series during a 12 week period. No reruns, no option to buy on iTunes, and if you miss an episode, there's no legit way to catch up - so it's either torrent it, continue on in confusion, or forget about the series. I was intrigued by the first episode, but missed the second. Rather than drop the series, I torrented it so I could keep up. I'm sure ABC would rather have had me torrent one episode so that I'd watch the other 10 when they air.

Sure in the case of many shows, they'd rather you buy the DVD to get caught up on past seasons, but they're still coming out more or less ahead of they get a regular viewer from people downloading.

Re:DMCA?

[Ungrounded Lightning]

On one hand when the text of a law is ambiguous the courts are supposed to use the interpretation most in favor of the defendant.

On the other, if it meant what acklenx wished it would say nothing. So the courts would say that this excludes that meaning and the other must be what was meant - making it unabmiguous.

Re:DMCA?

[Jerf]

The media companies don't really approve of TiVos, even, they just haven't figured out to stop them legally. They don't approve of, well, anything. It's not a hard guess that once something has been locked up, they wouldn't approve of you unlocking it.

Re:DMCA?

[AeroIllini]

Why "recall"? This is the Internet. Look it up.

Ok.

`(B) The prohibition contained in subparagraph (A) shall not apply to persons who are users of a copyrighted work which is in a particular class of works, if such persons are, or are likely to be in the succeeding 3-year period, adversely affected by virtue of such prohibition in their ability to make noninfringing uses of that particular class of works under this title, as determined under subparagraph (C).

            `(C) During the 2-year period described in subparagraph (A), and during each succeeding 3-year period, the Librarian of Congress, upon the recommendation of the Register of Copyrights, who shall consult with the Assistant Secretary for Communications and Information of the Department of Commerce and report and comment on his or her views in making such recommendation, shall make the determination in a rulemaking proceeding on the record for purposes of subparagraph (B) of whether persons who are users of a copyrighted work are, or are likely to be in the succeeding 3-year period, adversely affected by the prohibition under subparagraph (A) in their ability to make noninfringing uses under this title of a particular class of copyrighted works. In conducting such rulemaking, the Librarian shall examine--

                        `(i) the availability for use of copyrighted works;

                        `(ii) the availability for use of works for nonprofit archival, preservation, and educational purposes;

                        `(iii) the impact that the prohibition on the circumvention of technological measures applied to copyrighted works has on criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research;

                        `(iv) the effect of circumvention of technological measures on the market for or value of copyrighted works; and

                        `(v) such other factors as the Librarian considers appropriate.

Emphasis mine.

So the idea that watching purchased DVDs in Linux is illegal is a romantic notion of civil disobedience, but it is also a myth. The anti-circumvention measures are exempt if you are circumventing for the purposes of non-infringing use, which is very clear in the case of Linux DVDs (covered under subsections (i) and (iv), since the copyrighted works are not available for use without circumvention and the circumvention does not affect the market value of the work).

Additionally, TiVo users wishing to archive their programs, and cracking the encryption to do it, is a "non-infringing use", and therefore not applicable under the section you quoted. In short, this is not a DMCA violation, and is, in fact, legal. Whether or not you violated the Terms of Service you signed when you signed up is a contract dispute question. So TiVo could probably refuse to continue your service for this, but they certainly can't sue you for infringement of copyright.

IANAL.

Re:DMCA?

[AusIV]

Probably true, but I do think the media companies would find a sharp decline in viewers if PVRs got outlawed I have a MythTV box, and frankly I'm not going to interrupt my daily life to go watch a TV show - the only way they're getting me as a viewer is if I can do it on my time. The only way they'll get me to watch commercials is to have a show that is so good I can't wait to watch it, so I'll watch it when it's airing - there are several shows that fall into that category, so it can be done.

I'm not trying to sound rebellious, but the fact is people have gotten used to having DVRs and being able to getting TV shows on their own time. I'm guessing most people would sooner forget about TV shows than start rearranging their life around their shows. DVRs are in the network's best interest - they just need to figure out how to profit from the shows, rather than the interruptions within them.

Re:DMCA?

[Anonymous Coward]

there's no legit way to catch up

Yes there is. I just checked, and it's available at abc.com.

Re:DMCA?

[Cyno]

You'll have to take that up with Congress and the Supreme Court.

You say that as if they're some sort of respected authority.

it's pretty clear the media companies wouldn't approve of this.

Now just who is the real authority here? Who paid for the law?

Do you respect them?

Re:DMCA?

[a.d.trick]

The author may have wanted to imply a vague concept of access control, for whatever reason.

I doubt it. In Canadian contract law (and I think American too), if part of a contract is vague it counts in favour of the person who didn't write it. In this case that's us (the users). I have a strong feeling that if the DCMA ever got taken to court it would be tossed out fairly quickly. In addition to its senseless wording, it violates Fair Use which is a pretty fundamental aspect of copyright law.

Re:DMCA?

[jusdisgi]

While the content (TV show, movie, etc) is not their legal property, they did produce the file that exists on the TiVo and on the user's computer once transfered.

So what? You are arbitrarily attaching significance to the act of creating a file; there is no such significance in the DMCA or in the greater body of copyright law. By your logic, if I call Prentice Hall and get permission to distribute photocopies of a chapter of a textbook to a class (a perfectly normal case), then I can sue the students if they then violate the copyright. That's ridiculous; I'm not the copyright holder, I just have his permission to make a few copies. The only person who could sue the students would be the copyright holder (in this case PH or the author).

In short, allowing me to make a photocopy of the work definitely doesn't transfer the copyright to me. And content producers allowing TiVo to copy their work doesn't either. The only people with rights to sue here are the copyright holders, and they can't do it based on the DRM-circumvention. They would need to show some violation of copyright law (say, giving the copy you made to a friend or putting up a torrent) and DRM-circumvention is only a violation if the copyright holder placed the DRM on the work. The fact that TiVo "produced the files" is 100% irrelevant.

cool

[Anonymous Coward]

The next step then is to attempt to brute force the media access key by validating the 'decrypted' data from each attempt. MAK's are fairly short numbers really, I'd imagine it would take a while, but should be possible, no?

Maybe this means I can cancel my tivo subscription on one of my TiVos and copy the decrypted recordings to the one without the MAK?

Cool, but not *too* cool.

[Space cowboy]

It's cool that Mac/Linux users can now access their media in the same way as Windows users have been able to. It's not *too* cool (ie: dangerous to TiVo, and by extension the implementors) because you still need your MAK key, and all it does is provide the same level of access as TiVo already provide to windows users.

The crucial thing here is that TiVo took a business decision not to support Mac/Linux users. They can't really complain when those users decide to support themselves, giving themselves the same abilities that TiVo provide to Windows users...

Personally I think this is the right balance - my TiVo has been sitting in a corner since I moved house - the new cable box does everything TiVo did, and does it in HD (although the interface sucks a bit. Bad comcast). With this though, I can see a new lease of life for the TiVo ... a few creative uses come to mind :-)

Simon

Re:Cool, but not *too* cool.

[MBCook]

Sorry, but I've got to call you on that one. I'm a Mac user and I love my Tivo (I've now got a Series 3). I can't extract video because I have the S3, but I don't have much desire to any way.

That said...

They can't really complain (emphasis mine) when those users decide to support themselves, giving themselves the same abilities that TiVo provide to Windows users...

That's false. People will want the functionality, but TiVo certainly reserves the right to complain.

That's like buying a little Ford Focus and being mad that you can't tow 3000lbs. You knew that going in. The one exception is the people who bought their Series 2 before HMO was available.

They bought it when it wasn't even an option for Windows users.

TiVo did the smart thing and went after the largest share of the market first. I agree they should add Mac support (Linux is another argument), but they didn't give up their right to control access to their box because they didn't do what you (or someone else) wanted.

Re:Cool, but not *too* cool.

[Mr2001]

That's like buying a little Ford Focus and being mad that you can't tow 3000lbs. You knew that going in.

Yes... and this crack is like buying a Focus, then putting a bigger engine in it so you can tow 3000 lbs. You aren't suggesting that a Focus owner doesn't have the right to do that, are you?

TiVo did the smart thing and went after the largest share of the market first. I agree they should add Mac support (Linux is another argument), but they didn't give up their right to control access to their box because they didn't do what you (or someone else) wanted.

What do you mean, "their box"? If I buy it, it's my box. They have no right to control it once they transfer ownership to me.

Re:Cool, but not *too* cool.

[Space cowboy]

It's not their box. It's mine. I paid for it.

I refer you to the eloquent argument made by the gentleman (or lady :) above - if I work around an original limitation (either in design or implementation), I really don't think they have a leg to stand on. My point was yes, I can see them going for the largest market first - that makes sense - but if you don't exploit a small resource, you can't complain when someone else exploits it first...

Simon.

Re:Cool, but not *too* cool.

[tm2b]

That's like buying a little Ford Focus and being mad that you can't tow 3000lbs. You knew that going in.

False.

TiVo has told Mac users that this functionality has been "coming soon" for years now - or at least, they were years ago when I bought my Series 2 and check with them first. TiVo seemed like a trustworthy company, but it's now pretty clear that they aren't actually interested in keeping their word on this.

It's a shame - I like the usability of their technology and the ease of maintenance, but it just doesn't integrate well with the rest of my A/V network. I'll probably have to break down and use Myth, and sell the TiVos on eBay or something as I bring everything up to HD.

Even ignoring the TiVoToGo issue, the fact that the Series3 can't even accept HMO shows from Series 2 is the last straw - I understand the delay with respect to CableCARD content, but that doesn't mean that they can't support content from non-CableCARD TiVos. They're making it so that I can't take a single step into HD without giving up the power of my network which the Series 2 units used so well. And worse, if I want to keep my lifetime subscriptions I have to make the jump now, before HMO is available.

Screw that. I'm willing to live with reasonable DRM, but TiVo's taken a step away from network usability with Series 3, no matter how pretty it is. The Series3 I bought will probably go to my mother's house - with only one TV, she won't be all that inconvenienced by this nonsense.

Re:Cool, but not *too* cool.

[jandrese]

It's cool that Mac/Linux users can now access their media in the same way as Windows users have been able to. It's not *too* cool (ie: dangerous to TiVo, and by extension the implementors) because you still need your MAK key, and all it does is provide the same level of access as TiVo already provide to windows users.

While technically true, I don't think this is quite the same as Windows access. While it's true that you can use TiVos codec to decode their .tivo files on Windows, it requires some hackery. By default, all you are supposed to be able to do with them is play .tivo files in media player (or whatever you use to play movies), and it asks you for your MAK when you play them. This means if you wanted to distribute the .tivo files you would have to distribute your MAK with them, and it would be easy for TiVo to shut off your box (they would be in their rights, it says so right on the page you copy the MAK from on the TiVo) when they found the files online. This system allows you to decode the files to an unprotected MPEG2 file that you could re-encode and stick anywhere on the net.

On the other hand, just running Linux requires about as much technical proficency as decoding a .tivo file on Windows, so the effective protection is about the same, even if the spirit isn't. I'll look past the fact that you can run this on windows for now because it's a console app and anything on the console already bumps the proficiency level up a notch.

Re:Cool, but not *too* cool.

[tbuskey]

While it's true that you can use TiVos codec to decode their .tivo files on Windows, it requires some hackery. By default, all you are supposed to be able to do with them is play .tivo files in media player (or whatever you use to play movies), and it asks you for your MAK when you play them. This means if you wanted to distribute the .tivo files you would have to distribute your MAK with them, and it would be easy for TiVo to shut off your box (they would be in their rights, it says so right on the page you copy the MAK from on the TiVo) when they found the files online. This system allows you to decode the files to an unprotected MPEG2 file that you could re-encode and stick anywhere on the net.

TiVo has licenced thier codec(?) to Sonic to allow MyDVD to burn stuff to DVD. I'm sure the MAK is still embedded in there somewhere.

Given that MyDVD would crash constantly and tech support from Sonic was non existant (though the marketing dept knows my email...), I started using DSD to create mpegs that I could make a DVD with using Nero. Or any other app. I'm sure the MAK is still in there somewhere.

Now, I can automate some of the process of pulling video off, transforming to mpeg, mashing into a DVD iso then burning. All on a server not running Windows. I still think the resulting mpegs have my MAK all over them.

Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[drewzhrodague]

Neat idea and all -- the TiVo. Rather than fight with DRM, I'm using MythTV. All the shows I want are recorded, plus I get the added bonus of being able to drag and drop shows to my laptop for watching later. Add in the many other features that come with MythTV, and it's a wonder why people would use a TiVo. Check it out, and you'll be amazed.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[Scutter]

Check it out, and you'll be amazed.

I did, and I wasn't. It was a giant pain in the a** to set up and configure, it didn't work reliably, and the cost for hardware was way higher than buying a TiVo.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[Bastian]

When I got my TiVO, it was $200 for the box and $300 for a lifetime subscription, for a total of $500.

I didn't have a computer that was capable of running MythTV (and still don't), and when I priced the parts needed to build one, I was looking at over $1000 plus an appreciable amount of labor to build a machine that was as capable as a TiVO box.

It's been some years, so I really don't know if the math works out the same anymore, but at least in my case I really don't think it's a wonder at all that I chose the TiVO.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[MoxFulder]

The reason hardware for MythTV costs more is because Tivo sells their hardware at a loss, because they can count on making up for it in high subscription fees.

I recently spec'ed out a MythTV box with an 80gb hard drive and hardware MPEG encoding and a nice media center case for $350 shipped from NewEgg. A pretty good deal, I'd say, and it can actually be used for other things than just watching TV (it's got an Athlon 64, 512 mb RAM, and NVidia GeForce 6150 graphics).

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[scribblej]

It's a pain in the ass to set up and configure. I can't argue with you there. If you've done it once successfully, though (or two or three times) it becomes much easier.

However, I take issue with "didn't work reliably" and "cost was higher than a tivo."

My own MythTV works flawlessly, using a donated PIII-750 (cost: $0) for the server, and a Hauppauge 150 (cost: $60) for the tuner/encoder. There are no monthly fees. If you can show me a TiVo with lifetime subscription for $60, I'll be amazed. And tell my friends to buy it.

My MythTV also has features that TiVo will never have -- like the ability to automatically detect and skip commercials, the ability to select programs to automatically burn to DVD, and support for enough tuners to simultaneously record everything on every channel (well, in theory... I'd love to see the hardware for that!).

I like the TiVo. It's easy to use. But I like my MythTV a lot more. And I don't have to worry about what stupid decisions TiVo corporate might make -- like encrypting my videos so only I can watch them, support for the "Broadcast" flag, and wasting my storage space with advertisements.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[sekitan]

yes, it's difficult to set up and get everything configured, but MythTV has changed the way I watch tv. no commercials. it's not that i fast forward through, or skip them. they are actually removed. the hardware can be a little spendy, but i built mine out of an old P3 with a new tuner card, total cost $150. If you're the tinkering type, MythTV is loads of fun to figure out. if you're not, then you'd better cancel your subscription to Make magazine before you think some of their projects might be fun.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[scribblej]

One other thing I like about my MythTV. It doesn't "forget" whether I've watched a show or not after a few months. If I've watched something and told it I'm done with it, it's not going to record it again without my permission. Unlike the TiVo which will happily record shows you've watched a dozen times, if it's been long enough for the TiVo to forget.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[phekno]

If you're concerned at the difficulty of setting up MythTV try KnoppMyth. It's a one CD distro designed to make installing MythTV trivial. It has its problems, but its getting better. As for costs, I don't think TiVo offers a lifetime subscription anymore so that's irrelevant. TiVo can be obtained for little or no cost albeit with an agreement to sign up for a monthly subscription. MythTVs guide is free (for the time being at least). As for computer hardware requirements, it doesn't take much. About the only specialized and somewhat expensive piece of equipment you need is a TV tuner card. HD ones made for Linux can be obtained http://www.pchdtv.com/here.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[hal2814]

"Why TiVo when you can MythTV?"

Why post on-topic when you can blatantly go off-topic and get modded up for it? This is a nuts and bolts Tivo article. It's not about considering one DVR solution over another. No other solution is even on the table here. I'm not the biggest fan of Tivo but I'm getting a bit sick of these folks who feels some sort of duty to shove in a reference to MythTV every time Tivo is mentioned. I for one won't be amazed by links about MythTV but I can't read a single DVR article that doesn't have some wonky poster extolling the virtues of MythTV. We get it. We know. Stick to the topic.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[garcia]

If you can show me a TiVo with lifetime subscription for $60, I'll be amazed.

Your MythTV didn't cost you $60. Just because someone donated the computer to you doesn't mean it was free. There's that and there's the time it cost you to put it all together and get it working. To me, even though I have an above average background with Linux, wasting all that time getting it working just wasn't worth the hassle to have yet another computer in my home.

My DirecTivo was "donated" to me by DirecTV because they fucked up my regular TiVo with their screensaver "upgrade" over a year ago. I demanded that they give me a DirecTivo (which was not affected by their "upgrade" and a year's receiver fee free). Now that my free time is up with my receiver fee, I am not going to claim my TiVo is totally free because of that (BTW it is now a $5/month receiver fee which I would pay anyway with DirecTV regardless if I had the Tivo or not).

Technically you should be amazed by my DirecTivo. Are you?

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[Surt]

It's been some years, so I really don't know if the math works out the same anymore, but at least in my case I really don't think it's a wonder at all that I chose the TiVO.

Since you can no longer buy lifetime subscriptions, no the math doesn't work out the same anymore.
http://www.tivo.com/2.0.plans.step.1.asp

And further, the price for myth compatible hardware is way down since then.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[Anonymous Coward]

Posted anon because I'm not whoring karma, really, I just suck --

How could I forget to point out the number-one ultimate things the MythTV does that TiVo *never* will?

It comes in a distributed architecture. You can have a MythTV server (like my PIII-750) locked away someplace with a cable connection, and can have any computer in your house display the streams from it -- so I can watch and "record" (*) my shows on my PC, on my television via my hacked Xbox (running a MythTV client), or on my notebook over WiFi anyplace! If I had a larger house with a lot of TVs (as it is I only ever watch on my PC) this would be the killer feature. One free MythTV server, unlimited clients.

I wouldn't factor the cost of the Xbox, notebook, or PC into the picture, though, since there's nothing preventing me from hooking the donated PIII-750 straight to a TV; it's even got an ATI tv-output card in it with another tuner, which I should, in theory, be able to use with the MythTV, meaning I wouldn't need the Hauppauge, and my total cost is reduced to $0, but sadly I've been unable to get the ATI all-in-wonder tuner to work in linux... not that I've tried too hard yet...

Okay, enough rambling. :)

(* Technically the "Recording" happens at the server, of course.)

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[drewzhrodague]

Sorry, sorry. You're right, I should stick to the topic. I did get modded up for it, though =_)

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[Anonymous Coward]

Technically you should be amazed by my DirecTivo. Are you?

Do I? O'boy, not just amazed, but I'm all hard.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[terrymr]

hmmm I got my TIVO from directv, it records two channels at once and doesn't have a monthly fee either ... my programming charge would be the same whether I had tivo or not. If I could get my hands on a MythTV box for a reasonable cost that could a) record off of satellite and b) do so on 2 or more channels at once I'd be happy.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[hansonc]

but sadly I've been unable to get the ATI all-in-wonder tuner to work in linux... not that I've tried too hard yet...

Don't bother working too hard at it. Last I heard none of the all in wonder cards worked with MythTV and no one really seems to care since the hauppauge cards work so well.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia, DirecTivos rewind YOU!

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[Anonymous Coward]

Technically you should be amazed by my DirecTivo. Are you?

Technically, I shouldn't -- since you pay a monthly fee and I stipulated "no monthly fees."

But I'm still impressed. You made out like a bandit. Congratulations. If I could get that deal for my friends, I would.

In this day and age, I find it difficult to believe that anyone couldn't get their hands on a free PIII-750. I specified that because it seems so outdated that companies have just got to be tossing them left and right. Maybe I'm wrong though, and it's not fair to count that as free.

Of course, if you count yours as free, then if I've been running my MythTV for over a year (which I have, just barely) then your $5/month means you'd have paid more than I have... and your cost is just increasing from there.

About the time it takes to set it up -- well, it's not too hard, really, but even so, yes, my time is nearly worthless. :)

Now what's your take on all the features you're missing, like the distributed architecture, commercial detection and skipping, free and open transcoding, including to DVD, and integrated video games, dvd player, and so on until it just gets silly?

-ScribbleJ

Posted anon because I think it's supposed to be polite after I had one comment modded up.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[Anonymous Coward]

Assuming you get the larger sized (180 hours, which I'm guessing is a 320 GB hard drive) TiVo box, it's $180, plus $300 for a 3 year subscription (you got lucky with them selling lifetime ones). A system that'd run you 400-600 bucks would be able to do anything the TiVo could.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[EarwigTC]

Because you want to record encrypted HD cable. The inability to legitmately support CableCARD with open source (because you can't assure them that the media won't escape) is going to mean being stuck in the analog world for Myth and similar projects. Cable company DVRs, Windows MCE on special hardware, and the HD TiVo type devices will be the only choice. It's the first sizeable step to a future where every device between your eyeball and the studio must be 'blessed'.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[the_crowbar]

$500 for a TiVO w/ Lifetime subscription is not a bad price, but let me break down my MythTV box.

• $119 nMedia Media Center Case I could have used an old beige box, but this case fits in perfectly with my other components
• $88 Athlon64 3000+ CPU
• $87 Asus A8N-VM CSM motherboard with Geforce 6150 onboard
• $95 Seagate 400GB SATA 3.0 HD
• $90 1GB DDR RAM Crucial ValueRAM
• $10 Universal Remote
• $5 Homemade Serial IR receiver
• $40 2 WinTV software encoder cards from Ebay

Total: $534

I happen to have Charter HD cable with a Motorola DCT-6200 cable box. This cable box has a FireWire port that can be used to record shows in HD. Because my Asus MB has FireWire built-in my ~$530 Myth box has 1 x HD Tuner, 2 x SD Tuner. No fees (except my cable fee) and 3 tuners with a 400 GB HD for storage. If I wanted to I could rent a second HD cable box and have 2 HD tuners, but that is overkill for me.

For $530 dollars and a little bit of time I have a box that far exceeds the TiVO and records my HD content in DRM free MPEG2. Plus, if I ever need to I can reformat the HD and use it as a decent desktop PC.

Next paragraph added to avoid lameness filter.

Above I priced out a basic MythTV box. My actually Myth Box is a little better with a PVR-500 (hardware MPEG2 encoder card) and I have several remote controls for it. I currently use a ATI RF remote (~$30 @ NewEgg). I would not recommend it unless you already have one. It works fine, but the button response is slow (1 press/sec). I have (yet to be installed) a Windows Media Center remote. I have tested it and it seems to work quite well. I also have tried the remote that came with my cable box. It works well, but I was unable to prevent the signal from changing the cable box. I have tried several multi function remotes with different homebrew receivers. I was able to configure everyone of them with MythTV and LIRC. I also have a gyration wireless keyboard/mouse connected to the system.

More crap to bypass the lameness filter. thoiioe uiowjelkf auieohfla jsioayruhd aypiorhpqjhp iywphrqodhnq qyprhaondpohap qihd hqahd q doiahdoh kljsgf kljsgldf lkjgasldf lgsf lkagfd lkaghf agf jag jklgad iuotqwr bkjhs htaia hgskjdg aghsg lagsl lkagd lagsd algda lagld ad aldgla dlkasg dlagd aldga lslagls dlags dlgald aldglagdla dlkagld aldgla dagd lagd algdl adlagd agdlagd aldglagd adg aldg aldg

Thanks,
the_crowbar

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[jedidiah]

...not once you add in the extra storage space, pre-configured so you can just drop it into a Tivo.

Add that into the computation and Tivo doesn't have such a great advantage anymore.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[jedidiah]

If you want to record off of satellite with a MythTV, just do the same thing that you would if you were using a standard S2 Tivo. Just do the same thing that people have been doign with Tivos and set-top boxes for years.

Some of us have already done the 2 tuners thing with S1 Tivos.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[garcia]

You stipulated no monthly fees? You are using MythTV for OTA TV? Your reception must be rock solid for you to worry about recording stuff OTA.

Me, I pay a $5/mo receiver fee as part of my DirecTV service (it's just like cable but they charge you per TV). So unless you are doing this completely free via OTA, you're paying monthly fees too.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[jedidiah]

This is an article about the BS associated with proprietary solutions. The possibility of using an open solution and BYPASSING all of this BS is very much on point. I am a LONG time Tivo user that chose to build a MythTV system over this very problem.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[FatAlb3rt]

Your MythTV didn't cost you $60. Just because someone donated the computer to you doesn't mean it was free.

Although I'm not sure what your point is here, I guess I'll go with it. Just because you griped enough to DirecTV and didn't get charged for a year doesn't make it free to you either. Be sure to count the time on the phone with them, the downtime without the service, and the general BS that you have to put up with when speaking w/ customer service.

There's that and there's the time it cost you to put it all together and get it working.

Depending on who you are, this is part of the adventure. Maybe as much fun and memorable as actually using it when you're finished.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[evilviper]

Maybe because MythTV is very slow and clunky, with a convoluted interface, requiring you to navigate sub-sub-sub menus to accomplish anything.

A handful of lines of shell script, MPlayer, and a filemanager beats MythTV hands down.

I have no idea if Freevo has the same problems... last time I checked the inital setup was rather tricky and poorly documented, and I wasn't all that determined.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[whoop]

How about this for what a Tivo can't do: Convert your existing box to record HDTV by just buying a HDTV capture card and put it in the box. When you have a regular PC, everything is upgradeable. There isn't any waiting for a series n+1 to come out, buy it, convert your settings to it (can you even transfer season passes and all?).

Problems I've had with my MythTV setup have had minimal effect on my overall enjoyment. A PVR500 dual-tuner card crapped out, so I sent it back for RMA. I also had a PVR150 in there, so I went from 3 capture sources to 1 for a week. Another time the SVideo port went out on the video card. I went down to a 17" CRT for a couple days until I dug another old NVidia card out of my closet.

MythTV from the front may be more, but having to change out your unit every few years in order to get upgrades adds up as well.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[LotsOfPhil]

You didn't mention the cost of your hard drive. You are right that the CPU specs are quite low for standard definition TV and render the cost of the box quite low. I think that for HD encoding you need a more substantial (read: not obsolete) setup.

Also, just one tuner? A DVR with just one tuner is nothing more than a digital VCR and that is not even in the same genus as a dual tuner system (you can't swap between channels, record one thing and watch something else).

I am half quibbling and half disagreeing. I love my DVR (from the cable company) and have thought a lot about building a MythTV. I can get a box for free but the cost still seems restrictive to me. Say $200 for enough disk space to not have to worry about it. Plus $120 (at your prices) for 2 tuners. That's $320 without considering how long it takes me to setup. The cable company charges me $7 per month and if it breaks it's not my problem. That's for a standard def system. The price would be quite a lot more for an HD system.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[ben there...]

I did, and I wasn't. It was a giant pain in the a** to set up and configure, it didn't work reliably, and the cost for hardware was way higher than buying a TiVo.

I already had another cable line running into my computer room. So I bought a Hauppauge card for ~$65 and SageTV for about the same. Really easy to setup, and cost about as much as 6 months of TiVo.

I bought a DVD-R/W DL burner for ~$35, and some apps for cutting out commercials, none of which would have been possible with TiVo. And I don't have to deal with DRM.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[ktappe]

I recently spec'ed out a MythTV box with an 80gb hard drive and hardware MPEG encoding and a nice media center case for $350

Every few months someone claims to be able to make a better TiVo using MythTV for the same price. But invariably when one goes to do it, they find it costs twice as much as claimed. No box for $350 is going to sit quietly in your entertainment center; it will be a PC-shaped box with a loud fan. And, no, you can't do other things with it besides MythTV; it's in your entertainment center, not at a desk. It doesn't have a keyboard or mouse because there's no room for those in an entertainment center. And it's connected to a TV, not a monitor, so you can't see anything but TV resolution. So undertaking to build one's own PVR will cost more and be less convenient than a TiVo or ReplayTV. And it will be less reliable as the MythTV software crashes or otherwise misbehaves. That is what TiVo and ReplayTV bring you--reliability in a nice, small, quiet form factor that just work. These are two technologies that are not going to merge because of physical realities, not programming hurdles.

-Kurt

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[Chuck Messenger]

"Why TiVo when you can MythTV?"

Why post on-topic when you can blatantly go off-topic and get modded up for it? This is a nuts and bolts Tivo article. It's not about considering one DVR solution over another.

It's perfectly relevant to the discussion. After all, the discussion centers on an inconvenient aspect of TiVo. The assertion is made that by using MythTV, you avoid that inconvenience altogether. I find that interesting, in the context of the discussion.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[mrchaotica]

Not everone gets a DVR with their TV service. My parents who have Comcast analog cable don't, for example.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[mrchaotica]

Be sure to count the time on the phone with them, the downtime without the service, and the general BS that you have to put up with when speaking w/ customer service.

That's a pretty stupid argument to start making, since you're advocating building a MythTV box, which almost certainly takes a Hell of a lot more time. I'm not trying to disagree with you; I think MythTV is better too. I'm just saying quit while you're ahead.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[unsigned integer]

I'll have to concur with this. I just canceled my Tivo service today. They certainly made this hard to do, can't do it online, have to call and go through 3 separate people (recorded voice, customer help person, and then transfered to another).

I have my MythTV Box at the point where it makes my Tivo look inadequate. I have a nice SilverstoneTek case, with LCD, running FC5 (look for the FC5 guide + Myth to make it an easy install). I ran into a few small problems, sure. But with MythWeb, MythGame, MythMusic, and MythTV, my Tivo simply can't compare. MythWeb in particular - what an easy to use/configure interface for managing all my upcoming recordings, which easily allows me to see the conflicts, fix the conflicts, etc etc.

I think Tivo needs to take a good, hard look at what's out there now, at the cool stuff the hobbyists are putting together, and start incorporating that into their product. (Web interface, LCD, more control / insight into the recording schedule, media playing capabilities, etc).

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[mrchaotica]

How did you manage to have so much trouble with the lameness filter?

Here's a tip: select "HTML formatted" and remove all the spaces between the tags.

• Then
• you
• can
• write
• lists
• like
• this
• without
• triggering
• it.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[Aladrin]

Wow, I -am- amazed. From that page:

http://mythic.tv/product_info.php?products_id=44
From KnoppMyth boot to MythTV in just 17 minutes!

Wow! That's only like 15 minutes longer than my HD DVR takes! Amazing!

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[Gothmolly]

Except that Myth doesn't fscking work. Hauppage 150? Sorry, you need kernel hackery to make it work. ATI card? Screwed. Older GeForce card? Play with command line cruft to adjust overscan. Myth is a nice toy, but seriously, rent/buy a Tivo, and sit back and watch TV with the time you saved NOT farking with Myth.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not exactly a great system:

-that case doesn't come with a power supply. decent power supplies (like antec) - especially the silent kind are pretty expensive
-the embedded video doesn't have s-video outputs (most of what's recorded is 480i, and is likely going to be hooked up to a TV). Either ways you'd be far bettre off with a real video card, increasing cost.
-a ghetto 10$ universal remote - not what I want
-the average person doesn't want to make an IR receiver - and don't want of the project box look either - again, it should be more expensive
-your capture cards suck. At least the hauppauge PVR-150 would be usable, but costs more.
-we're disregarding any silent parts (like heatpipe/zalman coolers, quiet fans, etc), which would cost even more (or DVD writers, HD tuners or anything like that)

Add tax on everything, and shipping, and your updated list is almost twice what the tivo costs, or likely close to what a tivo with lifetime suscription costs, except the tivo didn't need to have its parts reasearched and spec'ed buy the buyer, then assembled, and OS installed and configured and updated, install drivers, set up the remote, the capture cards, install the PVR software, resolve problems/conflicts that may arise, keep it updated, etc. With the tivo, you put it on the shelf, plug power, cable and video cables, and you're set - about 3 minutes of work total, including unpacking the unit.

Mind you, I don't use either - analog capturing looks like shitty crap at best. DVB-S capturing is where it's at.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[cayenne8]

"Not everone gets a DVR with their TV service. My parents who have Comcast analog cable don't, for example."

Not everyone with cable WANTS the digital cable either.

I tried it...it had a bunch of channels I never watched....they were always pixellating..picture was horrible and would lock up all the time.

I dropped digital, and with the money I saved going back to extended analog....paid for the tivo with lifetime sub. after about a year or so....

So, for picture that is better IMHO, for less money, I get a better DVR than they give you at the cable company. Of course they don't offer lifetime sub anymore, so that's not part of the deal anymore, but, a myth box would be.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[Anonymous Coward]

I do have to take issue with anyone who tries the "my time isnt free" line of thought.
in all likelyhood you werent doing anything valuable with your time anyways. Everyday you do things that are of zero value and are "wasting" your time. every single day you partake in things when you could be doing something with your "valuable" time...

Your time is worth absolutely nothing once you accomplished everything you had to do. because at that time, no matter what you choose to do, it is of no real value.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[ben there...]

Why post on-topic when you can blatantly go off-topic and get modded up for it? This is a nuts and bolts Tivo article. It's not about considering one DVR solution over another. No other solution is even on the table here.

The article is about getting video files off your TiVo. GP pointed out that with MythTV (or any of the other FOSS and commercial apps), you avoid the problem of decryption altogether. Why start with an encrypted file in the first place?

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[schon]

A DVR with just one tuner is nothing more than a digital VCR and that is not even in the same genus as a dual tuner system (you can't swap between channels, record one thing and watch something else) While adding a second (or in my case, second and third) tuner reduces/eliminates scheduling conflicts, it is *much* more than a "digital VCR", and it *is* perfectly possible to record one thing and watch another - as my TV has a tuner as well. In fact, it's perfectly possible to record one thing and watch a show that you've recorded.

To emphasize the point about how a single-tuner box is much more than a VCR, I will relate a simple story:

Shortly after I set it up, my wife and I came home one afternoon while our (then single-tuner) Myth box was an hour into recording a movie. I said "let's start watching it", and (still thinking in "VCR" mode) she said "but it's not done recording yet!" To which I replied "that doesn't matter", and we sat down and watched the movie. Try that with a VCR.

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[the_crowbar]

It was below the list of parts. I had

• $xxx part
• $xxx part

-- (Long line of dashes...maybe 20 total)
$total

It was the line of dashes that triggered the lameness filter. I never bothered removing the rest of the stuff after that.

Thanks,
the_crowbar

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[the_crowbar]

You are an ac, but I would like to prove that my post was correct.

Couple of points:

• The case did come with a quiet 280 watt PSU. The only fans in the system are the PSU and the CPU cooler. The AMD stock cooler is very quiet.
• The embedded video has s-video output. I don't use it because I am doing HD over DVI. The s-video adapter does cost an extra $10 though. If you have another Asus board that has onboard s-video that adapter will work.
• $10 universal remote is not a problem. I bought a nice one off woot.com for $8. I also have a MCE remote I bought off ebay with receiver for $15. The case also has an internal IR Remote window to place the receiver inside the case.
• The WinTV may not be the best capture card, but it is as good as the TiVO. Had you read the rest of my comment, you would notice that I am now using a PVR-500 (2x 150 in single PCI card). The PVR-500 adds $135 to the cost, but that can be bought later to upgrade the system if needed.
• I don't have any parts designed to be silent, except maybe the PSU. That came with the case so is factored in to the price of the case.
• I did forget about the DVD writer. I had one lying around there was no need to buy one; had I needed to purchase one they are only ~$30. Of course I am pretty certain TiVO does not come with a DVD-Burner. Since I can easily dump video off my Myth box in MPEG2 I can use a DVD burner on any desktop PC.

I don't recall what the shipping cost were, but there was no tax. Purchased across state lines and all that. As far as research goes, there was a little. Right now I am using KnoppMyth on the system. If you want to build a fully working system with little research, check their forums. I think you may need to be registered.

With regard to ease of use, the TiVO I am sure is the easiest. If you don't want the DRM though MythTV is not hard. Granted I have several years of using Linux, but KnoppMyth is pretty easy. Just install it and at first boot it walks you through the system setup. If you get stuck post in their forum. I have been surprised at the quick responses I have gotten in the forums.

Thanks,
the_crowbar

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[Lost Race]

If you just want to watch TV get a Tivo. If you're a hacker, and need to tinker with everything complicated and electronic, skip the Tivo and go straight to MythTV -- you will eventually try to hack your Tivo, and it's a waste of time.

I've spent many many hours tinkering with (and occasionally swearing at) my elaborate MythTV setup, but it's been very rewarding -- more so, I'd say, than sitting around watching TV all those hours -- and my system is far better than any Tivo. Besides, without all the MythTV troubleshooting I never would have bothered to learn SQL; now I hardly use the setup menus at all. "update settings set data='foo' where value='bar' and hostname='moo';" :)

Re:Why TiVo when you can MythTV?

[Zepalesque]

You do know what web site you are posting to, right? :)

On a slightly related topic...

[mark-t]

Are there any new solutions these days for recording tv that _DON'T_ require subscribing to a monthly service, like the vcr did? Like, say... recording programs to a large hard drive and then being able to either play from the HD or else transfer them to a computer and burn DVD's of the stuff for permanent storage.

Re:On a slightly related topic...

[Anonymous Coward]

http://mysettopbox.tv/

Re:On a slightly related topic...

[Anonymous Coward]

...recording programs to a large hard drive and then being able to either play from the HD or else transfer them to a computer and burn DVD's of the stuff for permanent storage. There are standalone DVD burners (Panasonic, Sony, etc.) that have hard drives. You record to either DVD or the hard drive, and you can playback from the HD or record the data to DVD.

Re:On a slightly related topic...

[bilbravo]

MythTV... requires Linux, and time. Worth the effort.

Re:On a slightly related topic...

[Cramer]

Yes. Almost all video capture cards come with programs to do this -- every card I've had/seen from ASUS and ATI does. There won't be any program guide or fancy remote control, but it'll record whatever you program it to. Just like a VCR.

The appeal of the Tivo is it's simplicity and ease of use. Yes, I can build my own, but it will cost far more than the cost of the tivo and monthly (or lifetime) service. Plus a home grown solution will tend to require never ending tweaks to keep it running.

Re:On a slightly related topic...

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows Media Center (XP, or Vista) can do this without a monthly fee. The files are recorded in dvr-ms format (I may have the acronym backwards, but you get the idea). This format can be played in Windows Media Player on a portable computer (or, for that matter, in Media Center on a laptop with MCE - which many have for free these days).

Re:On a slightly related topic...

[jandrese]

while TiVos don't allow you to burn to DVD (AFAIK), they don't also force you to get the guide subscription. The thing is, if you don't have the guide info, you have to specify all of your recordings by time and channel (just like your old VCR!), also the thumbs up/down functionality and everything that goes with it won't work. You also won't get the ability to record shows based on metadata (like the actors, director, substrings in the title, etc...). Honestly, once you get the full fledged TiVo functionality you won't want to go back, even if it does cost you $10 a month (I forget what the monthly fee is these days, my TiVo has a lifetime subscription).

Re:On a slightly related topic...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've had MythTV up and running for a bit over a year, now. No tweaking. I've changed DVD composing wizards (I now use DVDStyler). And I use Avidemux2 for editing the videos I want to archive (which is all most all of them). And I have a lot more disk space (~300G) than commercial DVRs did last year. The same machine is used for capture, editing, and DVD burning, that has to be factored into the cost comparisons.

Re:On a slightly related topic...

[Abcd1234]

*Far* more? Really? I can build a capable Myth system for $500. How much does your Tivo plus a monthly subscription (I don't believe lifetimes are available anymore) for, say, 3 years run you?

Re:On a slightly related topic...

[mark-t]

While TiVos don't allow you to burn to DVD (AFAIK), they don't also force you to get the guide subscription. The thing is, if you don't have the guide info, you have to specify all of your recordings by time and channel (just like your old VCR!)

Specifying everything by time and channel is perfectly okay by me... it's what I always did with a VCR, after all. But I'd for sure want the ability to either burn a DVD or at least transfer the content to a computer so I can burn it to DVD from there for permanent storage if I record something I really want to keep.

Re:On a slightly related topic...

[Cramer]

I've been using tivos for over 5 years. And I've never had to do anything but take it out of the box and plug it up. (excluding sticking larger hard drives in 'em.) I like the tivo interface; why would I copy the content to something else when I want to watch it from the tivo? (humax makes one with a dvd burner/player, but I've not tinkered with it enough to judge how well/poorly they integrated the dvd.)

Re:On a slightly related topic...

[Dewin]

I'm personally interested in Neuros OSD, which is an open source hardware solution to DVR and whatnot. The specs seem to require a separate memory card or USB hard drive though (no indication of any built-in capacity) -- and I haven't ever actually seen/purchased/played with one.

Re:On a slightly related topic...

[Cramer]

Tivo: free, subscription: $99/yr -> $297 (I know, that's not been available for a long time *grin*)
DTivo: free, subscription: $4.99/month (covers up to 5 DVRs) -> $179.64

Current deals: S2 Tivo: free, subscription: $299 pre-paid 3yrs

Re:On a slightly related topic...

[Pollardito]

there are also several tools that will change DVR-MS files to WMV or AVI format thanks to the DVRMSToolkit, AVI in particular makes for much smaller files and is a much more portable format

Re:On a slightly related topic...

[Anonymous Coward]

There have been solutions for this for several years now. There are standalone hard drive/DVD recorders. I use one along with my Tivos, to edit recordings and burn to DVD.

Re:On a slightly related topic...

[ben there...]

Are there any new solutions these days for recording tv that _DON'T_ require subscribing to a monthly service, like the vcr did?

If you want to tinker, MythTV. Otherwise, SageTV, BeyondTV, GB-PVR, Mediaportal, WinMCE 2005, etc, etc.

You also need a capture card. Hauppauge, ATI, and nVidia all make good analog capture cards. DVICO Fusion and AverMedia are good digital cards.

Re:On a slightly related topic...

[Abcd1234]

So $200 savings, roughly... not bad. Then again, for that extra $200, you get:

* No subscription fees.
* The ability to play other media (eg, DivX, etc) than what you record.
* A built-in music jukebox supporting whatever formats you want, as well as integrated CD ripping.
* Integration of emulators (I use this a *lot*).
* Expandability for adding more tuners and storage as required.
* Unrestricted access to all recordings, and integrated transcoding capability.
* Integrated DVD playback, burning, and ripping.
* An easy-to-use web interface for scheduling recordings and viewing TV listings.

I'm sure I could go on and on. It's certainly worth the extra $200 for me.

Of course, it is a lot more difficult to initially set up, so in this regard, TiVo clearly wins. But now that my system is up, I haven't had to tweak it at all. It just works. *shrug* But, YMMV, of course.

Re:On a slightly related topic...

[Cramer]

You may be surprised to know most of that check list is available in the S2 Tivos with the addition of TivoToGo... and a PC on the network somewhere to feed music and other video to/from it. I already said there are models with DVD playback and recording abilities; for obvious reasons, they don't rip dvds.

Re:On a slightly related topic...

[Anonymous Coward]

For the UKers there is http://www.humaxdigital.com/
It works with freeview, although looking at the site there does seem to be a USA section for those across the pond...

Big frakin' deal.

[Sebastopol]

--begin opinion--

I don't understand why someone would go through the effort of downloading movies from their TiVo to watch on a PC.

- Basic TiVo quality isn't so hot
- The TV shows that I record in high-quality usually exist on purchasable DVD's anyway
- Who ever watch movies more than once or twice? Thanks to Netflix, there is a never ending list of good movies that I've never seen

I don't see all the fuss. TiVo is fine, the DRM is fine. TiVo records disposable media, and media worth hanging onto is worth purchasing for better transfer quality.

Can I get some anecdotal evidence about who actually needs so proliferate their TiVo data?

The only case I can see is if your kid is on the local news and you want a permanent record. Even then, you can usually contact the news station for that.

--end opinion--

Re:Big frakin' deal.

[mrsbrisby]

I don't understand why someone would go through the effort of downloading movies from their TiVo to watch on a PC. ... The only case I can see is if your kid is on the local news and you want a permanent record. Even then, you can usually contact the news station for that.

So see? You made a liar of yourself: You _CAN_ understand why someone would download from their tivo to watch on their TV.

I like putting cartoons on DVD so my kid can watch something on long car rides. Before today, this meant using wine and directshow nonsense. Today its just become a little better.

Other people have other reasons. Just because you have no family or friends, and no imagination to boot doesn't mean everyone is as sad as you.

Re:Big frakin' deal.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've downloaded recorded TiVo content to my laptop for business trips.

Re:Big frakin' deal.

[Anonymous Coward]

How else am I supposed to prove to my friends that I was on COPS?

But seriously, I actually was on tv ... i recorded the program with my tivo, decrypted the streams, edited out the commercials, and then sent it to my friends/family. Of course, I had to do it all the old fashioned way by remuxing the streams coming out of the directshow filter, but the end result was still pretty fantastic.

Re:Big frakin' deal.

[JabberWokky]

I collect Rocky Horror and related items. Meat Loaf just released Bat out of Hell 3, and did the circuit of the Today Show, Jimmy Kimmel, etc. I've been recording them at Best quality (+2 minutes on both sides), and then burning them off to DVD. Even with a good DVD burner, you lose quite a bit of quality after the double (or triple, if it's an analog channel) decode/encode cycle. Many of the Lifetime movies that Barry Bostwick stars in are simply unavailable on any media.

Basically, if you have a reason, this is quite nice. Even if you don't, quickly copying them to your harddrive and playing them on your laptop is faster, easier and cheaper than burning a DVD-R in realtime and then playing it on your laptop. I literally was supposed to open up my TiVo this past weekend to toss ssh and the ty streamer software on the hard drive. This is much much easier.

Okay, I just finished downloading a copy of a show. Let's test it...

It works fine. I now have a nice interlaced, non-gamma corrected mpeg file (i.e., simply unencrypted, exactly what I wanted). Fantastic and quite fast.

By the way, a quick nod to TarZxf (aka Neal), who gave me the TiVo as a going away present. Best damn gift I've gotten.

--
Evan

Re:Big frakin' deal.

[h4ck7h3p14n37]

I must admit I would never waste my money on something like Tivo, so I'm hoping I don't make too big a fool of myself.

I don't understand why someone would go through the effort of downloading movies from their TiVo to watch on a PC.

• Basic TiVo quality isn't so hot

Isn't the quality as good as an analog television broadcast?

• The TV shows that I record in high-quality usually exist on purchasable DVD's anyway

Why pay for the shows on DVD when you can record them for free? Also, be aware that the DVD releases of television shows aren't necessarily the same thing. For example, you simply cannot buy copies of the same Beavis and Butthead episodes you watched on MTV in the 90's due to licensing restriction on the music videos. Likewise, some studios have taken to censoring content when releasing to DVD; for releases of Bugs Bunny and Tom and Jerry have been censored to remove potentially offensive material.

• Who ever watch movies more than once or twice? Thanks to Netflix, there is a never ending list of good movies that I've never seen

Is that a joke? I suppose I can assume you're not a collector. As the owner of well over 200 DVDs, I can assure you there is plenty to watch more than once. For example: The Simpsons, Seinfeld, Curb Your Enthusiasm, the original Star Wars trilogy, LOTR, The Big Lebowski, Hackers, New Jack City, Office Space, etc.

I pretty much don't watch television anymore, but I can imagine that people who own a Tivo would like to get as much use out of it as possible. I find it more than a little sad that Tivo owners are actually fighting with the manufacturer in order to use the features in the thing and that the manufacturer has sided with the content producers instead of its customers.

Re:Big frakin' deal.

[RabidOverYou]

> I collect Rocky Horror and related items

How far does this hobby extend, precisely?
- Do you attend Susan Sarandon press conferences?
- How many toasters do you own?
- Wheelchairs?
- Fishnet stockings?

Re:Big frakin' deal.

[JabberWokky]

In order:

- Well, I do contact her representatives for related media; I have a collection of publicity packages as well. I try to collect the various media (laserdisc, VHS, Beta, DVD, etc) plus the associated press kits for that piece. I also own the original photos used in her audition for Rocky.
- Toaster? Use an oven. When you're toasting loafs of bread at a time, it's much better. Disable your smoke alarm first, however. Also remember to let them cool before putting them back in the bags (unless you're making survival kits).
- I've owned four. The last didn't cross the country with me. :(
- I have purchased well over a hundred pairs of fishnet stockings. Not only did I sell them to cast members (I used to give them away, but that proved to be a mistake), I've also bought them in bulk for myself. Plus a float that I helped make and got a bunch of fishnets to decorate with. If I've been in a residence long enough, you can move any random piece of furnature and find either sequins or fishnets. I also have a signature fishnet style: duct tape tops with silver chain garters.

To answer your question "How far does this hobby extend, precisely", it's about the same as any person who is a very serious fan about anything. Some people collect coins, some people collect sports team items, I collect items related to a particular stage production, the movie version, its s-equal, and all the actors that played in them. For instance, I have one of the only two pieces of chewing gum that Meat Loaf has accidentally spit out during a concert (he always chews gum when singing).

So, yes. I'm happy that I can now get a higher quality copy of the next time Barry Bostwick hosts the Independence Day celebration in Washington DC or there's a VH1 "special" that has the Nescafe commercials with Anthony Stewart Head. I happen to live in a small town that hundreds of people travel to in order to park outside the stadium, paint themselves blue and white and cook hot dogs and then (maybe) watch a college football team. What I do is no more strange, and I do have a life outside of Rocky (and have put it on hold for years at a time when there have been other priorities). But I do enjoy it.

--
Evan

Re:Big frakin' deal.

[MalusCaelestis]

I frequently make DVDs of the stuff on my TiVo to show to a group of friends. It's not a simple or fast process, so I only do it with stuff I think they'll really like.

Is that enough to convince you that just because you don't find it useful, someone else might?

Re:Big frakin' deal.

[josteos]

I record shows on Tivo all the time, send them to my PC, strip out the DRM, and watch them on my PC.

Why?

My kids are asleep when I want to watch The Ultimate Fighter. I don't want them wandering out while I'm absorbed watching two guys beat the snot out of each other. Without stripping the DRM I'm forced ot use Windows Media Player, which for whatever reason is slower-than-shiite as I skip past commercials. WinAmp refuses to work right on my machine, and I don't care enough to fix it, because I discovered that the Nero Showtime app that came with Nero 6.6 is an excellent movie viewer. It even has skipahead when I don't wanna watch commercials. But it can't handle the DRM, so I use Direct Show Dump to take'em out.

Works very well.

Re:Big frakin' deal.

[Sebastopol]

/. shouldn't make you so angry!

Be happy! :-)

Security 101

[HAL9000_mirror]

Its only a matter of time before mechanisms involving Security by obscurity is compromised.
"So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak."
--Sun Tzu, in The Art of War.

InterTiVoNet

[Doc Ruby]

So can a MythTV install now send shows recorded by TiVo to other MythTV or TiVo players across the Internet? Do you even need MythTV to do this?

Oh no!

[PHAEDRU5]

A cloud of smug!

Re:Oh no!

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention the unbalanced parenthesis.

Re:Oh no!

[stunt_penguin]

Actually, I think the correct term is gaggle, but I could be mistaken.

Hi there, Lumpy!

[PHAEDRU5]

Still enjoying the smell of your own farts?

Re:Hi there, Lumpy!

[Lumpy]

You know you are famous when you start attracting wierdows that have nothing better to do than troll you.

Thanks! It's making my day that I finally entered the top of the Slashdot Elite by getting my first personal troll.

I look forward to your future attempts. Please show me how entertaining you can be!

Cloud of smug? nope that's pride your's smelling!

Re:Hi there, Lumpy!

[Gulthek]

Ah, don't flatter yourself too much. I've gone through the GP's recent posts and he's hardly your "personal troll". He's pretty funny too.

Re:Hi there, Lumpy!

[PHAEDRU5]

I responded to an Anonymous Coward who'd asked that my original post be modded down.

FISHED IN!!!!! FISHED IN!!!!!

Hook. Line. Sinker.

Almost as much fun as fish, barrel, smoking gun.

I'd encourage you to do something about the persecution complex. Stop sniffing your farts, or something.

========

Actually, all snottiness aside, you did come across a little smug in your original post. Sorry to say it, but you did.

Let's face it: we're all just muddling through. Maybe you made a good RealTV decision, but I'll bet you've made bad decisions elsewhere. I know I have (e.g., I own a TiVo).

I'm not perfect at it, but I try to take my good decisions and pass them on witout judgment. I'm not perfect: I still have ego. Sorry.

Anyway, I apologize for yanking your chain. It was a guilty pleasure I sort of regret.

Re:Hi there, Lumpy!

[PHAEDRU5]

Thanks. I appreciate the positive comment. Really.

Re:Hi there, Lumpy!

[WilliamSChips]

I want a personal troll. In fact that's the only reason I respond to the idiots who reply to twitter with that ridiculous ibiblio "LINUX ADVOCACY FAQ".

F***in' A!

[slimjim8094]

Now who will write a MythTV plugin, so I can use Inter-room transfers (or whatever TiVo calls them) between TiVo and Myth? It has already worked the other way, right (at least if you use MPEG2 encoding)?

Gotta record it all.

[eddy]

>record everything on every channel (well, in theory... I'd love to see the hardware for that!).

Something like this:

• Machine 1: A Linux machine containing 3 HDTV cards and 750GB of storage.
• Machine 2: A Linux machine containing 2 NTSC cards and 300GB of storage.
• Machine 3: A FreeBSD machine with 2.5TB (usable) of RAID 5 storage, mostly for (legally obtained) DVD's.
• Machine 4: A Linux machine with a high-end graphics card that connects to the DLP projector and talks to the 3 back end machines.

Who said anything about watching on a PC?

[Vellmont]

I don't understand why someone would go through the effort of downloading movies from their TiVo to watch on a PC.

I'd imagine most people wouldn't use the functionality for this. It's a LOT more usefull for burning the movies to a DVD and watching it on your DVD player connected to your TV though. I'm sure there's a LOT of people that'd like to keep a few seasons of a TV show on DVD that they recorded.

You could also burn something to DVD and give it to your friend or family to watch. Ever had someone ask you to tape something for them, but been unable to do so since you only have a DVR and not a VCR?

Re:4 tivos = $6/month on directv

[Anonymous Coward]

or $5 for those long standing customers. For two tuners per unit. And in my case, in HD.

Shortly I'm going to try to get a fusion card to work in HD-OTA with a new box, but don't kid yourselves on the costs. A tivo runs 40+ watts and costs about $3/month to run. An efficient PC is likely to be double that, at best. (the older CPUs - perhaps we're talking Athlons - burn 90-100 watts on their own.) The older machine will also need a new hard drive for the storage needs, esp for the HD crowd. Add another 60-100 there.

13/month seems like a hard sell to me, but the dtivo units run way cheaper than the PC route, with the simple reliability that can't be matched by general purpose PCs.

UPSs deal with power hits well, esp when the draw is only 40W. I can literally go an entire day. (OTOH, the hdtivo has been rebooting itself at ~2:30 the past two saturdays - very odd behavior)

What hardware?

[Kadin2048]

Any chance you want to list the set of hardware you were looking at?

I've been interested for a while in building a MythTV STB, but I've just been put off by the hardware issues. It seems like every video input card has some little niggling issue that might or might not make it work or break ... I understand that part of the "fun" is setting it up, but maybe I've just turned into an old fogey. I'm not going to buy hardware unless I'm sure it's going to work, and work well, with the software.

A while ago, I was all set to get a pcHDTV HD-5500 because it's allegedly built from the ground up to be Linux-compatible, but even it had issues and didn't "just work" in many applications. (I've read posts by the developer and they blame the constant changes by the MythTV team to the backend that breaks drivers and forces the manufacturer into a constant cat-and-mouse redevelopment game in order to keep Linux users happy.)

I want something that can do ATSC, Clear QAM, and NTSC Analog cable, so that I can plug it into my Comcast line and get all my current (unencrypted) analog channels, plus whatever they're broadcasting in the clear via QAM, and I'd like it to do ATSC in case I decide to ditch cable in the future. I haven't found any hardware that seems sure to do that.

I've said elsewhere that I think there's a market for someone to put together an 'Anti-Tivo,' basically a TiVO without any of its absurd DMCA-driven restrictions. Sure, it would technically be illegal, but no more so than any Linux PC that plays DVDs right now. (And no more so than a modded Playstation, and they sell them on Craigslist all the time.)

I'd love to have a Linux STB, but even for someone who isn't a Linux noob, the field is very confusing and full of "works, sorta" products.

Re:What hardware?

[russotto]

I have the box you desire, built off the HD-5500 (I also have a KWORLD ATSC-110 but it seems less reliable on QAM... too bad, it's cheaper and comes with a remote). MythTV 0.20, clear-QAM, ATSC, NTSC. 64-bit Ubuntu with some custom stuff. And probably 100% legal, at least as far as criminal law goes (because I didn't include the dvdCss library). I've considered trying to sell them but I haven't found a good forum. Not cheap -- about $700 or so in parts bought at retail.

Re:What hardware?

[cayenne8]

"I have the box you desire, built off the HD-5500 "

I've got the same card...but, info to set it up is a bit sketchy. Can you tell me what all kernel options (in kernel or modules) need to be set to use this? Also, which kernel? I'm trying a vanilla one.

Can you post what is needed, or post a link?

I was wanting to also turn this box into a myth box, but, had heard that myth with the HD card and the PVR-150/250 cards won't work together...any info there?

Thanks in advance...

Re:What hardware?

[russotto]

I'm running the Ubuntu edgy kernel, patched with the ck patchset (for user-level pseudo-real-time stuff), and the July v4l-dvb snapshot with modifications to make audio more reliable (check out the pchdtv forum for them). I don't know about combining with the PVR150/250; making multiple cards work together reliably gets to be a pain because v4l-dvb is not good at keeping the indexes consistent across boots, particularly not when hybrid (analog + digital) tuner cards are involved.

Re:What hardware?

[ncc74656]

I want something that can do ATSC, Clear QAM, and NTSC Analog cable, so that I can plug it into my Comcast line and get all my current (unencrypted) analog channels, plus whatever they're broadcasting in the clear via QAM, and I'd like it to do ATSC in case I decide to ditch cable in the future. I haven't found any hardware that seems sure to do that.

There's not one card I know about that does all of that acceptably, but I'd recommend the Hauppauge WinTV-PVR150 for NTSC (it offers hardware MPEG-2 encoding) and the Avermedia AverTVHD MCE A180 for ATSC (broadcast or cable). The PVR500 is tempting with its dual tuners and encoders, but the tuners on mine do a crappy job of pulling channels in the mid-40s (the worst is 45, which around here is SciFi :-( ).

Getting both of them working isn't all that difficult anymore. Make sure you're running the latest Linux kernel (2.6.18), as that will include support for the A180. Support for the PVR150 is provided by ivtv 0.8.1.

Do any of you actually OWN a TiVo?

[Ars Dilbert]

Because the download counter on sourceforge is showing whooping 117 downloads! And that's combined total for the EXE and source code downloads.

What's with all the off topic discussions? This is a big deal if you are a TiVo owner. I have 200 GB of .tivo files on my computers and no way to play them unless I install the craptastic Tivo Desktop application. I should have known that any topic on /. would inevitably go off tangent into DRM and OSS discussion...

Let's talk about something more relevant to this topic. Such as: I just tried the app and the damn thing doesn't work at all. Granted, I ran it under VMWare (because I don't exactly trust strange programs off the Internet...) but that should not matter.

Re:Do any of you actually OWN a TiVo?

[Anonymous Coward]

Please log a bug on the Tracker for the project with the version of the TiVo software, the platform and architecture of the box, and version of the tivodecode software. All I can say at this point is, "It Works For Me!" ;)

Why?

[DeadCatX2]

I don't see the point in modding useless things down.

There will never be enough mod points to mod all the noise down to -1. It should be assumed that at level 1 there will be a mixture of noise and signal, and anyone interested in pure signal should set their thresholds higher. The purpose of downmodding ought to be preventing people from posting stupid antagonizing shit over and over again, or to prevent a troll from carrying the discussion in the wrong direction by having everyone reply to it.

Can anyone (specifically you, Mr. Coward) tell me why a useless comment deserves a score lower than 1?

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

FWIW, I'd rather that folks mod up rather than down, then setting the threshold at 2 will guarantee that coheren, well-written posts will be at 2 or higher.

Re:Why?

[Mike89]

mixture of noise and signal

Ugghhhh. Does EVERYONE have to use this analogy when talking about discussions held here? To me, people like you who refer to trolls, spammers and first posters as "noise" are the one causing the 'noise' (or problem, as anyone else would call it)... it's not like hijacking an article to have a completely offtopic discussion about the moderation here is helping at all.

I personally browse at 0 - New comers (such as myself) posts show as 1, and I'm still interested in what they say. Some ACs (score: 0) have insight (some forgot to login too). By the time I read a story most of the crap is below my threshold. Sometimes I browse at -1 and a few of the comments are insightful, but the mods didn't agree (don't tell me to metamod, I'm 'too new' for that).

Re:Why?

[DeadCatX2]

mixture of noise and signal

Ugghhhh. Does EVERYONE have to use this analogy when talking about discussions held here? Actually, yes. Being an electrical engineer, I'm kind of fond of the Signal to Noise Ratio. On top of that, the analogy is, well...accurate. So I see no compelling reason not to use it.

To me, people like you who refer to trolls, spammers and first posters as "noise" are the one causing the 'noise' (or problem, as anyone else would call it) So are you trying to say that the trolls/spammers/etc are helping the discussion and the only harm is by people like me who complain about the inadequacies of the moderation system? Oh, right, and obviously "anyone else" wouldn't call it a problem, because you say that EVERYONE on slashdot uses the SNR analogy.

it's not like hijacking an article to have a completely offtopic discussion about the moderation here is helping at all. You call this hijacking a discussion? If anyone hijacked it, it was the AC whose post resulted in 11 off-topic responses. And from the looks of things, there's plenty of "discussion" going on elsewhere, anyway.

And I think it does help, a tiny bit. It certainly helps more than no discussion about the moderation system at all. I would imagine that meta-moderation was added only because of people bitching about the flaws of the moderation system.

When I moderate, I spend every point on people who I believe were wrongly modded down. Usually they're new people who are now posting at score 0 because some prick screwed them. So trust me, I know how the system works, and I make it a POINT to search out and counter abuses when I get a chance.

Modding down only works if the person is purposely trying to push the discussion in the wrong direction and many people are going to fall for it. There are simply not enough mod points to mod every offtopic comment down. Look at the sibling posts; less than half of all this offtopic nonsense was modded down. This is hardly an effective use of moderation points that could have otherwise elevated constructive comments above the threshold of 1.

MythTV menus are hackable

[Lachryma]

Actually, it's pretty straightforward to edit the xml files that describe the menu interface. I removed several menus and submenus and put Watch Recordings and Manage Recordings as the first two top-level entries. Very nice.

umm wasn't this done years ago?

[FullMetalJester]

I remember following a procede a while back that allowed you to take the home media files from a series2 (.tivo file) and run it through some program that was included in windows and viola! you got a regular uncompressed mpg2 stream (.mpeg) within a minute or so. it was so easy i thought it was a fake but it really worked. i had no problem with the mpegs after that.

Re:umm wasn't this done years ago?

[Anonymous Coward]

That uses Tivo's DLL, and requires Windows. This allows you to decode the files on any platform. Big difference if you don't have a Windows box :)

Re:umm wasn't this done years ago?

[Mr2001]

The point of this article is now you don't need "some program that was included in windows". You don't need Windows at all. You can do the decryption on OS X or Linux, etc.

Before this, no one knew how to generate the keys to decrypt shows, which is why they had to use TiVo's DirectShow filter, but now they can generate the keys and decrypt shows without using any of TiVo's software.

Mac semi solution

[DebianDog]

I can pull Tivo video with my Mac with both Series 1 and Series 2. I also can stream video directly to my Mac. See here

You can burn to DVD's.

[glrotate]

The Tivo desktop software lets you transfer recordings from the Tivo to your PC. Watch them with the media player of your choice, or burn them to DVD.

You're way off

[Mr2001]

In fact, Tivo even does things that most Slashdotters would applaud, but are villainized nonetheless.

Gee, why could that be? Could it be because they're following the letter of the GPL while simultaneously pissing all over the spirit of the GPL?

They even use Linux and released their code under the GPL. And yet, we still hear Stallman complaining about the fact that the Tivo hardware locks you out from changing the software. What he (and many others) apparently miss is that when you buy a Tivo, you're not buying a general purpose computer: you're buying a DVR. I mean, God forbid that they prevent users from running them out of business by buying the hardware for far less than it costs Tivo to make it and loading MythTV onto it.

You might have a point here if that were the only reason to hack TiVo, or even a significant reason - but it isn't. People are willing to go to great lengths to change the software on their TiVos (check the dealdatabase forums), but I've never seen anyone try to replace the software entirely.

No. The main reason people want to hack their TiVos is to add features that aren't there in the base software, like running a web server to control their recordings remotely, adding caller ID display, extracting video without using the painfully slow TivoToGo feature, reinserting video that has previously been extracted... and so on. They don't want to run MythTV, they want to run the TiVo software with improvements. They don't want to avoid paying TiVo, they just want to get the most out of the box and the service they're paying for.

Releasing the code under the GPL is fine and good, but they're really just using it as a loophole. The code they've released is essentially useless to everyone except those with modified firmware (a delicate hardware mod that few people have the skill to perform) or old units that didn't require the hardware hack, because no one cares about running TiVo's code on another system.

Re:4 tivos = $6/month on directv

[Rich0]

Uh, doesn't direcTV charge $5 for each extra receiver per month? I believe they only charge $6/mo flat for any number of DVRs, but you still pay extra for each unit simply for the access card.

With MythTV unless you really need all those tuners you can just pay base rate+$5/mo for two tuners and then hook up all the TVs you want. Granted, those two tuners are shared for the full house, but unless you're a family of 8 you probably don't need much more than that. And all the programming can be accessed from any TV.

I've used both, and I much prefer Myth.

Which isn't to say that Myth is perfect, or that it is trivial to set up. I don't recommend it to casual friends, but I would recommend it to anybody with a CS degree.

And yes, it does cost a lot more up-front - the result of not having subsidized hardware.

Now, you have the HD Tivo, which is half-decent, but a lot of new DTV customers are getting the R-15, which is useful only as a paperweight (and as a free hard drive for your MythTV box). I wasn't expecting much from mine, and it certainly did NOT meet my expectations - I'd have been happy if it at least recorded the shows I like most of the time, without a complete reset every month. Most people who seem to be happy with their's only seem to watch 5 shows - anybody with a family of 4 with diverse viewing habits ends up in trouble...

Do you mean the DMCA or the DMCA?

[DragonHawk]

There's every reason to believe dvdcss (and this software) is perfectly legal under the DMCA, as it falls under "interoperability"

Well, that depends on whether you mean the DMCA as it is written, or the DMCA, as in "legislation bought and paid for by the media cartels for the sole purpose of faciliting immoral lawsuits by same". The media cartels have demonstrates that they pretty much intend to use the DMCA as an excuse to sue anyone intro the ground. The specifics of the legality don't matter; they have more money and more lawyers than you.

I swear to God!

[PHAEDRU5]

I'm not his personal troll.

I'm a simple programmer, laboring in Atlanta's J2EE vineyards, taking the occasion to pull the piss. That's all.

Though.... I have been considering a career change.

Re:I swear to God!

[Anonymous Coward]

You should also consider shutting the fuck up.

Replays Rule

[meehawl]

I've been doing this with my ReplayTV for years now. I made the decision to go replay instead of Tivo back then

My thinking exactly. Tivo people are so ridiculously grateful for any minor improvement in their locked-down systems that something so basic as sending a show you recorded around your own house unencumbered by anti-viewer DRM strikes them as "progress". My 2001-era ReplayTV has been doing that for years. It's like watching children get excited over finding a shiny shell on a beach full of them.

It was quite simple. Years ago I looked at the two systems. One, the Tivo, did have nice chirpy sounds with the UI, but I noted the lack of built-in ethernet, show sharing, and a heavy reliance on DRM. The other, ReplayTV, was about as open a consumer device as you could buy back then. It was a simple choice. Chirpy UI sounds versus free ownership of the way I wanted to watch TV. I bought Replay. With DVArchive, WiRNS, and VLC I have always been able to watch and control them using the web, and watch, send, and transcode shows over LAN or WAN.

My decision was vindicated a few years ago when I attended a trade show where one of the Tivo guys was speaking to an audience of content owners and advertisers. Basically, he told them that Tivo was there for them and saw "huge value" in helping them to manage their content push to the audience. Tivo has always been about serving the media companies first, and serving them up a loyal audience.

Family videos

[quokkapox]

The only case I can see is if your kid is on the local news and you want a permanent record. Even then, you can usually contact the news station for that.

Yep, nothing like having your kids' videos all lined up on the shelf:

• First Day Home from Hospital
• First Bath
• First Christmas
• First Birthday
• First Steps
• ...
• First Perp Walk

Yay? Rejoice?

[toejam316]

Okay, so TiVo's are useful, right? You have a computer if your reading this right? Then why not just dish out $100 and get a Digital TV Tuner. It'll turn your computer into a DRM-Free TiVo-like device. Why make a box for MythTV? Why not just use your CURRENT box? or better yet, do some trading with old parts. You cant tell me you dont have something. I just traded a set of speakers for a AMD Athlon XP 1.3ghz, 256mb DDR RAM, a Gigabyte Mobo AND a MX 400. All sufficent for a MythTV box, am I correct? Seems cheaper than a TiVo, and more convenient to MOST of you here, so why all the fuss?

TV Programs w/ Mac Linux compatibility w/ TIVO...

[rogtioko]

...Man, this will have a huge impact on the users of the 12 million TIVO systems out there.

* Offset 0x0 through 0x03 "TiVo" stream header -- null padded?

* Offset 0x12-0x13 - (value 0x474, 1140) length of XML copyright header -- null padded?

* Offset 0x16-0x17 - (value 0x463, 1123) length of metadata??

* Offset 0x0C-0x0D - (value 0x3800) start of video??

* Offset 0x0F - (value 0x3) flags??

Amazing what cryptanalysis can do!

Now, if only the decoders would make something of the spaghetti code (encrypted word/s) data of the war/tyranncy/sabotage/game/trauma (I don't know what it is exactly) in Iraq and give some real leadership to our country. And TIVO could gain some market share from civilians and insurgents who had watched YouTube: if Iraq achieves a good state of civility and there aren't any more stunts to video record on YouTube.

Re:TV Programs w/ Mac Linux compatibility w/ TIVO.

[Slashcrap]

Amazing what cryptanalysis can do!

Now, if only the decoders would make something of the spaghetti code (encrypted word/s) data of the war/tyranncy/sabotage/game/trauma (I don't know what it is exactly) in Iraq and give some real leadership to our country. And TIVO could gain some market share from civilians and insurgents who had watched YouTube: if Iraq achieves a good state of civility and there aren't any more stunts to video record on YouTube.

I'm curious. Was that an attempt at some kind of satire or were you intending to sound like a 14 year old cocksucker?

Oh, and if you really want to make a difference, the best way is to attempt suicide. Do it with a plastic bag but make sure you're found just before expiring. Far more money will be spent keeping your life support going then you will ever pay in taxes. And that's less money to put towards wars! Come on, don't be selfish you little prick!

A "nonce"?

[Viol8]

It mentions "nonce" in the text. Well in British english that means a child molestor though I suspect thats not what they mean here , so what does it mean?

Re:A "nonce"?

[hdurdle]

A nonce is a cryptographic term - a number used only once. They're used as authentication to avoid replay attacks.

Re:A "nonce"?

[stry_cat]

Well in British english that means a child molestor

You Brits can't even speak your own language. ;-)

The actual meaning of nonce: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nonce
The jargon used in Cryptography: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptographic_nonce

Re:A "nonce"?

[Viol8]

Sorry mate , I don't care what some online dictionary says - nonce means a child molestor and has done for years. Perhaps the dictionary compilers should come and visit sometime.

Re:A "nonce"?

[caldaan]

Yeah at least if you look up "bird" in the dictionary you get a "chiefly british slang" option to understand what they mean :).

I'm not a linguist, but just because you have used nonce for years one way and no one else has doesn't mean it is so for everyone. If the dictionary was full of slang and other jargon any given English word could probably mean just about anything.

Re:A "nonce"?

[Viol8]

"nonce for years one way and no one else has doesn't mean it is so for everyone"

What , you think I just talk to myself? Why not visit britain and ask someone on the street or read this you thick prick:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=non ce

OT: Two tuners vs. one hybrid one.

[Kadin2048]

Humm, interesting thought. So you think that using two cards in tandem would be more reliable than using one hybrid (analog+digital) card?

I had heard a lot of noise about problems in v4l when you have more than one card (see the comments in the thread right above yours), so I hadn't really been looking at that angle at all. Though in some ways, it produces a more flexible setup.

It's somewhat ironic to me that there is better support (apparently) for some Windows-centric TV tuner cards (AverMedia, Hauppage), than for the ones made by pcHDTV specifically for Linux. I'm not sure what the lesson there is. I feel sorta bad for the pcHDTV folks, because from reading their forums I get the impression that they're really trying to do the right thing and support Linux well, and I'd love to support them financially, but it seems like providing in-house drivers for a community-developed application stack is a losing game: I wonder if they would be better not developing any drivers at all, and just releasing technical specs and letting the community do the driver development in sync with the backend.

Re:OT: Two tuners vs. one hybrid one.

[ncc74656]

Humm, interesting thought. So you think that using two cards in tandem would be more reliable than using one hybrid (analog+digital) card?

It's not so much that as that there is no card that does both, AFAIK. The A180 can capture NTSC on its composite and S-video inputs, but (1) it won't compress it (many HD capture cards use dumb-framegrabber chips like the SAA7134 and Bt878 as little more than PCI-to-GPIO interfaces, and hook up the composite and S-video inputs just because they're there), (2) it can't capture NTSC from the tuner, and (3) it can't capture HD while it's busy capturing NTSC.

I had heard a lot of noise about problems in v4l when you have more than one card (see the comments in the thread right above yours), so I hadn't really been looking at that angle at all.

I've heard similar stories of problems mixing capture devices in one system (here and elsewhere) before. Most of the problems have involved getting the pcHDTV cards to play nicely with other cards, IIRC. The only tricky (just slightly) thing I had to figure out with my setup was keeping the order in which capture devices are enumerated, and adding something like add below saa7134-dvb ivtv to /etc/modules.conf takes care of that.

It's somewhat ironic to me that there is better support (apparently) for some Windows-centric TV tuner cards (AverMedia, Hauppage), than for the ones made by pcHDTV specifically for Linux. I'm not sure what the lesson there is. I feel sorta bad for the pcHDTV folks, because from reading their forums I get the impression that they're really trying to do the right thing and support Linux well, and I'd love to support them financially, but it seems like providing in-house drivers for a community-developed application stack is a losing game: I wonder if they would be better not developing any drivers at all, and just releasing technical specs and letting the community do the driver development in sync with the backend.

More heads working on a problem, combined with more affordable hardware that more people can test, could be expected to produce better results more rapidly. It's getting to where just about anybody can throw together some chips and build a board. Since there aren't that many different chips that go into the different boards out there, it makes more sense to try to reuse other people's work on drivers than to try to reinvent the wheel. (Note, for instance, that while every slightly different Bt8x8-based framegrabber card needs a different Windows driver, nearly all of them work with the same bt8x8 driver under Linux. The amount of tweaking needed to get a new device working, if any, is often minimal.)

Yea, Replay made "Smart" decisions.... right.....

[shaneh0]

You realize that Replay doesn't exist anymore and Tivo does?

It looks like those guys at Replay (which was made by a larger corp that I'm sure you know but I can't remember) are just patting themselves on their backs for how many "good" decisions they made.

Seriously, though, Tivo decided not to make general warfare on the people that they need, like content companies. Instead of giving a commercial skip button to users, they just programmed a 30-second skip easter egg. It works great. Commercial hits, I press the button 3 or 4 times and i'm back to the program. Meanwhile, Tivo isn't getting harassed by media companies and run out of business.

Instead of just providing unlimited access to content, Tivo played by their rules. Because of that, I can schedule shows from any internet connected PC, share photos and other content on my LAN, etc.

Replay tried revolution and got smited down. Tivo has used incremental evolution to change the business and to change the expectations of media companies. Theres a saying that one used to apply to Tivo and now more aptly fits Replay: Pioneers get the arrows, settlers get the land.

Theres merit to being a pioneer, and if what they wanted was merit, the Replay guys got it. But if what they wanted was profit and a viable product, they could've learned a lot from Tivo.

Plus, the Tivo interface has always been a mile past Replays.

Stallman has every right to complain

[ChaosDiscord]

And yet, we still hear Stallman complaining about the fact that the Tivo hardware locks you out from changing the software.

You do know that the Free Software Foundation was founded specifically to fight this sort of behavior, right? Stallman was denied access to the source necessary to use his printer to the fullest extent. Tivo is doing the exact same thing.

Worse, Tivo is violating the spirit of the GPL, if not the letter. The entire point of the GPL was that a user receiving GPL protected software can modify and replace it. You can't do that with a Tivo. Their lockout solution is legal, but pretty clearly flaunts the Free Software Foundation's intent.

What he (and many others) apparently miss is that when you buy a Tivo, you're not buying a general purpose computer: you're buying a DVR.

Maybe they bought a DVR. So what? I bought it, it should be mine to hack on as I want. I can buy a cordless drill and hack on it to convert it into a powered pepper grinder (like Alton Brown did). I can modify my car into a Zamboni-like ice-resurfacer (see "Monster Garage"). I can take the freely offered CueCat and hack it to give me unencrypted data, then use it to catalog my library. I can take my Xbox game system and turn it into a general purpose computer. Check out sources like MAKE magazine for endless lists of people doing cool and completely unexpected things to their own property. If Tivo doesn't want me hacking on my box, they shouldn't sell it to me; they should lend it to me. That you've bought into the idea that you can "own" something, but not be free to use it as you like reinforces how important Stallman's message is.

I mean, God forbid that they prevent users from running them out of business by buying the hardware for far less than it costs Tivo to make it and loading MythTV onto it.

Boo-freaking-hoo. "I gave away razors, now everyone is buying replacement blades from my competitor!" There are solutions that don't require crippling the boxes they sell. Indeed, mobile phone service companies dealt with this problem a long time ago. You can either buy a phone at full price with no commitment, or you buy a discounted phone with a contract. If you get the discounted phone and break the contract early you're liable for the value of the discount, or even more.

Mind you, I own a Tivo. They made a great product, and for now I'm willing to accept their compromise. But it's completely inappropriate to bash Stallman on this. He's simply maintaining a consistant position. He's reinforcing the exact same message he has for the last twenty years. And he's quite reasonably upset that Tivo twisting the intent of the GPL while following the letter of the GPL.

256Kbps ion electric chair being shipped to you.

[rogtioko]

response to post #17110858

First of all my previous post was bad in that it told people 'who couldn't respond' what to do. 'What it was saying' as an ideal example was good. So my flawed post has a score (the more negative the degree, the worse; the more postive the degree, the better) of zero.

post

17110858

here

Are you being sarcastic or are you acting the fool only?

If so, your post is flawed (one should figure it out...) but not by any of the things I am about to mention. The sarcastic post is good in that it doesn't mean the parasitic garbage your post said (I'll get to this later). So your flawed sarcastic post would have a score of zero.

If not, Good thing TIVO can skip ads...people can skip junk they don't need to watch. PC's can do that and more miracles. For example, a program's on that seeps corruption into my brain: give the writer and the program some constructive criticism that will burn each's obstructive dullness and create ability in place. Your post did make a good comment,

don't be selfish

,on the flaw of my original post. Otherwise, 'from thought to writing' your action was twisted: your mentioning of 3 'illusory actions (unrelated to source topic)', which I'm not going to repeat because doing such would illusorily acknowledge realness of illusions. In this respect, your flawed post has a score of -2.