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Extraterrestrials Probably Haven't Found Us - Yet

kasparn writes "The Guardian today has a story about the Danish astrophysicist Rasmus Bjoerk, who recently conducted simulations on how long it will take to colonize the Milky Way. The basic idea is to send out probes in different directions (including various heights above the galactic plane). He estimates that it will take some 10 billion years to explore 4 % of the Milky Way. Since the age of the Universe is of the same order, his conclusion is that aliens can't have had time required to find us yet."

104 of 588 comments (clear)

  1. I should hope so... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 5, Funny

    We will be in a lot of trouble if the Cylons find us first.

    1. Re:I should hope so... by Homr+Zodyssey · · Score: 3, Informative

      Silly! They aren't aliens. They are man-made robots.

    2. Re:I should hope so... by bigmauler · · Score: 2, Funny

      just change the article to "hot Cylon poon hasn't found us yet."

  2. Based on poor assumptions by BadERA · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why 1/10th c? Why not 99% of c? Why not faster than c? Granted faster than light travel is nothing more than theory and dreams at this point, but this article makes the assumption that other civilizations have not progressed in the field of physics any faster nor further than we ourselves have, to date.

    --
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    1. Re:Based on poor assumptions by QuantumG · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, imagine a civilization that, having discovered enlightenment, actually embraced it and dedicated their industrial base to further it, instead of shuffling it off to the minor specialists who they then make beg for funding, typically by militarizing their research.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    2. Re:Based on poor assumptions by BadERA · · Score: 5, Funny

      Psssh, enough of that hippie dudley do-right love and flowers attitude, that will get you nowhere in this life.

      (That said, I totally agree with you.)

      --
      I am, therefore you think.
    3. Re:Based on poor assumptions by Marlow+the+Irelander · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nasa's current Cassini mission to Saturn is plodding along at 32km a second

      c/10 is 30,000km/s. The article makes the assumption that alien civilizations have advanced enough that their spaceships are 1,000 times faster than ours - not unreasonable.

    4. Re:Based on poor assumptions by teslar · · Score: 4, Informative
      Why 1/10th c? Why not 99% of c? Why not faster than c?
      You're still thinking Star Trek when you should be thinking Stargate.
      1. Obtain a good enough understanding of space-time to create wormholes to any destination you want.
      2. Make a list of all destinations you are aware of.
      3. Send a probe to all of them, evaluate each destination and scan for more destinations from there.
      4. Go to step 2.
      Space ships are just such a small-planet-with-water way of thinking.
    5. Re:Based on poor assumptions by Nyeerrmm · · Score: 5, Informative

      Also, assuming they use some kind of rocket technology (that is, technology that shoots stuff out one side to propel the vehicle in the other), 1/10 c is much more realistic than something approaching c. Assuming a technology that has 100 times the specific impulse as our current vehicles (the best ion thrusters get ~4500 s,) I get using the rocket equation that the initial mass to move 1 ton of cargo is:

      1/10 c: 3.263e29 tons .99 c: 1.534e292 tons

      Even then this seems absolutely ridiculous. If you used a matter/antimatter reaction so that your propellant was pure electromagnetic radiation (thus your exit velocity is c), you'd get these results

      1/10 c: 1.105 tons .99 c: 2.69 tons

      Of course, these are not adjusted for relativity, since I don't know any simple equations to do that. I would imagine (as a wild-ass guess) that the 1/10 c estimates are close, but the .99 c results are off by thousands of orders of magnitude.

      Basically all I'm saying is that 1/10 c seems fairly reasonable. It's not feasible given our current technology, but its within reason. If you start looking at things like space-time warpage, then we have no idea on any usage or capabilities, so any kind of theory based on it gets even further and further from reality.

      By the way, I am a rocket scientist, but only a student, and not a physicist at all, only an interested amateur.

    6. Re:Based on poor assumptions by gobbo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But the bad assumption remains: rocket technology. Like I said, who's to say they haven't gone further with physics, or pursued a different, or completely unthought-of (to us) means of travel?

      No kidding. "If we put a thousand horses on a carriage, it still won't be fast enough to lift from the ground. But if we could discover the rumoured winged horse, we can do it."

      Something tells me that we're a couple of paradigms away from comprehending galactic distances as attainable. Propellant propulsion systems are to interstellar travel what horses are to flight.

    7. Re:Based on poor assumptions by inviolet · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Also, assuming they use some kind of rocket technology (that is, technology that shoots stuff out one side to propel the vehicle in the other), 1/10 c is much more realistic than something approaching c. Assuming a technology that has 100 times the specific impulse as our current vehicles (the best ion thrusters get ~4500 s,) I get using the rocket equation that the initial mass to move 1 ton of cargo is [...]

      Why do you assume that any sane civilization would send out macro-sized probes?

      Nanoscale or even microscale probes would completely change the economics of space exploration. And they would avoid the very serious problem of atomic abrasion that occurs at and above 0.1c.

      That's why I laugh when people spot human-sized UFO craft. If there are UFOs here, they're microscopic.

      --
      FATMOUSE + YOU = FATMOUSE
    8. Re:Based on poor assumptions by StikyPad · · Score: 3, Funny

      Nanoscale or even microscale probes would completely change the economics of space exploration. And they would avoid the very serious problem of atomic abrasion that occurs at and above 0.1c. That's why I laugh when people spot human-sized UFO craft.

      That's why *I* laugh when people think we haven't solved the issue of atomic abrasion. Teflon was named after our home planet, after all. Ha ha ha...

      Puny human!

    9. Re:Based on poor assumptions by Alsee · · Score: 3, Informative

      The article makes the assumption that alien civilizations have advanced enough that their spaceships are 1,000 times faster than ours - not unreasonable.

      No, it is quite unreasonable. The Cassini probe is going 32km a second (71,000mph / 115,000kph). That is more than a thousand times faster than the record less than a hundred years earlier.

      We pretty much already have the technological capability to get a small probe up to c/10. We have the knowlege and basic designs to do it... it is already "mere" enginering and $$$$ problem for us today. If we simply chose to allocate several gigabucks to do it, we could with absolute certainty get something up to c/10 within 10 to 20 years.

      Assuming our civilization doesn't implode in one way or another in the next few hundred years, getting well over c/10 is a certainty. The only uncertainty is whether the speed of light really is an inviolate limit, or whether some unimagined phyisics will have us exploring the universe way beyond the speed of light.

      But looking at his paper I see that the real problem with his figure isn't his c/10 speed limit, but his laughable assumptions and exploration strategy of tiny fixed number of probes zig-zaging between stars almost one at a time. Even with conservative assumptions.... assuming just 0.5c and an interstellar civilization manufacturing just one probe per year... and assuming a reasonable strategy... the entire Milky Way could be explored in just a few million years.

      With more reasonable assumptions, the entire exploration rapidly becomes light-speed limited. After the initial local exploration, an advanced technology civilization could mass produce replication-capable miniprobes or microprobes and use a maximized galactic search strategy. Send those probes out on a straight line courses directly to the various sectors of the galaxy... with the worst case probe taking between 150,000 years and 225,000 years to reach the opposite side of the galaxy. Within a handful of years the probe locates an uninhabited rock and sets up an automated factory to send out a few million miniprobes or microprobes, which scout all of the stars in that sector within about 20,000 years. Elapsed time: less than a quarter million years to get a probe to every star.

      And really you only need the tech and pay the $$$$ to make and launch *one* such replicator miniprobe. After that, the entire exploration proceeds automaticaly and "for free". We will probably have this technology within a hundred years. Some time within the next 10,000 years... hell lets call it some time in the next 100,000 years of civilization... someone can and will do somthing like this (if we are still around). Once anthing remotely like this gets started, it doesn't much matter how you tweak the assumptions. The most it does is add in a small multiplier factor to the timeline. It is almost inconceivable that we (assuming we are still around) will not have probed every star in the Milky Way within a million years from today.

      10,000 years or 50,000 years of technology and manufacturing is an insignifigant blip in the analysis. That technology level and time span means that a civilization can and will trivially produce the resourses needed to explore at a stbstantial fraction of the speed of light. Actual strategy and behavior only accounts for a small constant multiplier. the defining factor is the speed of light, and it locks down the final answer somewhere between 160,000 years and just a few million years. His result of needing 10 BILLION years to explore just 4% of the Milky Way is comical.

      The only real question is whether the speed of light really is inviolable. If that falls, then I say we only need between 100 and 1,000 years of technology and then we explore at close to the limit of whatever that new physics makes possible. If we can explore and *get answers* at far faster than the speed of light, then there is vastly more incentive to actually do so.

      -

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  3. Duh by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sheesh, talk about "proof by lack of imagination." This is supposed to answer the Fermi Paradox?

    You can't explore a galaxy with a handful of probes. 72 probes??? First of all, if you're going to do it that way, you'd create hundreds of thousands of probes, if not millions of probes (mass production would reduce the cost). Second, you still probably wouldn't do it that way. You'd wait until you had the technology to make self-replicating probes, and the galaxy could potentially be explored in thousands of years.

    Not impressed by this guy's argument.

    --
    Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    1. Re:Duh by Gropo · · Score: 2, Funny
      u'd wait until you had the technology to make self-replicating probes, and the galaxy could potentially be explored in thousands of years.
      Yes, and let's hope beyond all hope that once the probes arrive they don't require vast amounts of O and/or H2O to replicate themselves. And that they'll recognize Sol 3 as a planet fostering 'advanced' life.
      --
      I hate Grammar Nazi's
    2. Re:Duh by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're right, this guy hasn't thought things through. He rejects self-replicating probes because they'd compete with the original explorers. I think that's a lame argument, but let's accept it. Even human colonies spreading out from Earth, and moving onto new stars every generation or two (and sending out some non-self-repicating probes while they're at it), would explore the galaxy far faster than these probes. If humans survive the next century or two I'm sure they'll explore the galaxy in person far faster than this unambitious probe idea.

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    3. Re:Duh by isomeme · · Score: 4, Informative

      You'd wait until you had the technology to make self-replicating probes, and the galaxy could potentially be explored in thousands of years.

      Bingo. As usual, Wikipedia has a good article on the topic.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a skull.
    4. Re:Duh by myowntrueself · · Score: 5, Funny

      You can't explore a galaxy with a handful of probes. 72 probes???
      Not impressed by this guy's argument.

      He is probably just assuming that the aliens have a pretty much exact parallel to NASA.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    5. Re:Duh by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 3, Insightful
      you'd create hundreds of thousands of probes, if not millions of probes..You'd wait until you had the technology to make self-replicating probes, and the galaxy could potentially be explored in thousands of years.

      Uh-huh. And how many self-replicating probes traveling at .1 c have you developed?

      The fact that we can imagine self-replicating interstellar probes doesn't mean they are practical or possible.

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      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    6. Re:Duh by muellerr1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I tend to agree. Think about it this way: how much of *our* resources are we currently using to explore the entire galaxy? And how much are we likely to in the future? The answer is, not much. It's a vanishingly small return on a huge investment to explore the galaxy, especially when we've got bigger problems at home and so much raw material in our own solar system. The costs of sending crap into deep space will probably outweigh the benefits of mineral riches for far into the future, despite Ridley Scott's imagination. Unless there are aliens within a few hundred light years of us (which at this point is a vanishing probability given that we've found under 200 exoplanets within 200 parsecs) we won't find any aliens -- and they won't find us, either.

    7. Re:Duh by turnipsatemybaby · · Score: 2, Funny

      Geez, that's a terrible idea! Last time anyone did that, a bumbling race grab a hold of one and reprogrammed it to replicate as its top priority over everything else! The result was that the probes were finding other races and then breaking them down into their component compounds with their lightning thingies!

    8. Re:Duh by flyingsquid · · Score: 5, Funny
      You're right, this guy hasn't thought things through.


      Negative. I find your argument untenable. I am in agreement with the Danish monkey-being. Probabilities of non-human life spreading through the Galaxy and discovering primitive monkey-beings in Sol System are minimal. Probability is on the same order of probability of a F'narthag slime-weasel evolving wings and taking flight. It is also highly improbable that extraterrestrial beings would colonize the pathetic planet Earth and blend into the primitive monkey-being society. They would be forced to hide in internet discussion groups and the tech sector so that they are mistaken for geeks when they display lack of monkey-being social skills.

    9. Re:Duh by lucifig · · Score: 5, Funny

      Well Darth Vader found Hoth with fewer probes than that and it only took him like 4 minutes.

      So I guess you are both wrong.

    10. Re:Duh by terjeber · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If the aliens have an organization like NASA, and some Alien-Aliens drop by and donate Faster than Light technology and two space elevators to our Aliens, they still wouldn't be able to colonize their own solar system in 10 billion years.

    11. Re:Duh by isomeme · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We do; you are an example of such a device. :)

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a skull.
  4. The Galactic Lottery by neo · · Score: 5, Funny

    Come on. 4% is a hell of a lot better than your odds of winning the lottery and that happens *everyday*.

    Plus he's not taking into account multiple alien races. So that's like double 4% which is almost 8%. Do that a few hundred times and you get 108%. This guy clearly doesn't understand math.

    1. Re:The Galactic Lottery by solafide · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Plus he's not taking into account multiple alien races. So that's like double 4% which is almost 8%. Do that a few hundred times and you get 108%. This guy clearly doesn't understand math.
      Nope, do that n times and you get 1-(.96)^n probability they find us.
    2. Re:The Galactic Lottery by dmd · · Score: 3, Funny

      And this guy clearly doesn't understand humor.

    3. Re:The Galactic Lottery by Sloppy · · Score: 2, Funny

      It was 4, again.

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      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  5. Wrong, wrong, wrong by Ignorant+Aardvark · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This figure of taking billions of years to explore the galaxy is utterly wrong. Actually, it only takes a few dozen million years to colonize the entire damn galaxy, which is a lot more effort than merely exploring it.

    This figure is based on some very reasonable assumptions. Colony ships travel at much below the speed of light. Each colony gets a thousand years of development time from first colonization before it starts sending out its own colony ships. As you can see, even though it seems quite "slow", thanks to the magic of exponential growth, the entire galaxy is colonized in short order.

    We won't merely be discovered if aliens exist - we'll be colonized. That's the most likely scenario for running into aliens. If they never spread beyond their home planet, they'll just be one star out of trillions - but if they do start colonizing, we'd find them everywhere.

  6. Well, DUH! by QuantumG · · Score: 3, Insightful

    To paraphrase: But Sir! If we only send 8 probes it'll take billions of years to search a mere 4% of the Milky Way galaxy!

    That's why you have to make the probes self replicating.. utilizing in-situ resources to make more probes at each star they visit, the growth becomes exponential and it only takes a few thousand years to search the entire galaxy. And seeing as we're visiting all these stars anyway, how about looking for planets that don't have life on them, but have nice suitable conditions for starting life on them. Cover a virgin planet with a wide variety of Earth lifeforms and fly on.

    --
    How we know is more important than what we know.
    1. Re:Well, DUH! by Ignorant+Aardvark · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To be pedantic ... the absolute minimum time to explore the whole galaxy from Earth is about 80,000 light-years, because the farthest part of the galaxy is about 80,000 light-years away from us. Although to be even more pedantic, double that, because you can't really say you've explored until the information about what you've found has made it back to you.

      So, yeah, you can't explore the galaxy in only a few thousand years.

    2. Re:Well, DUH! by myowntrueself · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's why you have to make the probes self replicating

      Hopefuly they don't need to see any Earth-based SciFi to know that self replicating probes are a phenomenally *bad* idea.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    3. Re:Well, DUH! by mazarin5 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sorry, but no. The light-year is the distance covered in a year at the speed of light. The unit of time you're looking for is the year. What you're saying is equivalent to "The mile is a unit of time, if you assume travel at 60 mph."

      --
      Fnord.
  7. Wrong by TheWoozle · · Score: 2, Funny

    I need to introduce this guy to my next-door neighbor...

    --
    Insisting on "correct" English is like saying that there is only one, definitive recipe for chili.
  8. Re:Heh by master_kaos · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Exactly, who say Aliens - if they exist - hasn't come up with some vastly superior way of travel (maybe instant teleportation, etc). And even if they do know about our presence, why would they care? There are most likely millions of other planets that are available, why bother fighting over one that has inferior beings on it, that will most likely destroy themselves within the next few centuries. We most likely have nothing of value to them, so what would be the purpose of them "contacting us"

  9. How close minded can one be? by quincunx55555 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...his conclusion is that aliens can't have had time required to find us yet."

    Under what time frame? If an alien race has had advanced technology for 100,000,000 Trillion years, then they'd have plenty of time (and would probably have technology more advanced then sending out physical "probes"). It doesn't see likely from what we know, but I don't think we actually know that much.

    Why is it that scientists think that only what we can achieve is possible? It's like us looking for aliens using our technology (SETI). Not that it's impossible, but I'd think other intelligent being could come up with other forms of communication than our own; even if it wasn't more "advanced".

    1. Re:How close minded can one be? by Rurouni_Jaden · · Score: 5, Funny

      "If an alien race has had advanced technology for 100,000,000 Trillion years, then they'd have plenty of time (and would probably have technology more advanced then sending out physical "probes")."

      when they show up, please ask them how they survived the big bang.

    2. Re:How close minded can one be? by Kelson · · Score: 2, Informative
      If an alien race has had advanced technology for 100,000,000 Trillion years

      That would be a neat trick, considering that as far as we can tell the universe is only on the order of 10 billion years old. Though 100 Quintillion years with high technology is probably long enough to figure out time travel, so I suppose this could still work.

    3. Re:How close minded can one be? by poticlin · · Score: 2, Interesting

      [..]as far as we can tell[..]

      Magic words...

      When it comes to Alien technology or understanding of the Universe. All we can do is assume. We judge and make predictions, our theories are based on our perception of things.

    4. Re:How close minded can one be? by Wyrd01 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There is always the possibility that it's only our current universe that is 10 billion years old.

      Maybe the big bang wasn't a bang at all, but was instead the "bottom" of a black hole from a neighboring universe (A white hole)... their balck hole sucks up a "universe-load" of matter, condenses it, and funnels it down a spout... then all that matter comes out the other end into our universe. No longer under the influence of astronomical gravity the matter quickly expands and cools and, tada, here's a new universe.

      Under that scenario the meta-verse could have been around for who knows how many years and could contain umpteen million universes spewing matter around amongst themselves and/or spawning off completely new "spaces". If a civilization could figure out a way to ride through one of these and into a fresh new universe they could potentially persist for billions or trillions of years.

      The book Macrolife includes many of these concepts and is an all-around great SF book.

    5. Re:How close minded can one be? by corbettw · · Score: 3, Funny

      If an alien race has had advanced technology for 100,000,000 Trillion years...

      Holy shit, Tom Cruise posts on Slashdot!

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
  10. I once worked out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Traveling at the speed of light, it would take a quarter million years to reach Andromeda. What's more is that if I went into statis now, the compound interest on my savings would pay for the journey.

  11. Self-Replicating Probes? by transiency · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What about probes that land and replicate on foreign terrestrial bodies? 1 probe lands and makes 10 or a hundred of itself. Send out 10 of these type of probes, and exponential growth will do your work for you.

  12. More than one... by neurocutie · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Whatever his assumptions are that leads him to 4%... it seems that he is considering only the probability that any ONE alien civilization is looking. But in all likelihood there are many, if not millions of alien civilizations out there than may be search, so the probability that any ONE of those million will find us seems quite a bit higher than 4%.

  13. Re:Heh by pbrammer · · Score: 4, Funny

    They want all of our "base"?

  14. Some potentially invalid assumptions? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    1. Probes sent by extraterrestials cannot travel faster than our probes.
    2. The ET search is not targeted.
    3. The ETs are not much closer to Earth and found us by luck, early in their search.

    At any rate, while the math is interesting, it just shows that we're not likely, as in snowball's-chance-in-hell likely, to have been found already. From a logical point of view, though, one cannot say that we haven't been found yet.

    As far as we know for certain, the Vogon construction fleet could be circling our system as we type these responses... though the chance of that being the truth is small enough that we could very well see an Improbability-driven ship come in for a landing at JFK or LAX.

    --
    "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    1. Re:Some potentially invalid assumptions? by LWATCDR · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "1. Probes sent by extraterrestrials cannot travel faster than our probes."
      Actually he is claiming that extraterrestrial probes can travel 1000 times faster than our probes.
      So far propulsion systems are not following Moore's law and there is no evidence that they ever will.
      This is a simulation made using guesses I would say that it is very interesting.

      --
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    2. Re:Some potentially invalid assumptions? by soft_guy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually I think propulsion systems have gotten faster in the last 200 years.

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  15. Re:Heh by yurnotsoeviltwin · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Also, this simulation was about colonization. It's a lot easier to find something than to colonize it, especially in places that aren't very conducive to supporting life.

  16. Self replicating probes?!? by SeePage87 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Terrible idea. The Sylandro had one of them, and look what almost happened! Never trust a Melnorme.

  17. Re:That's assuming... by BadERA · · Score: 2, Funny

    Wow, it's almost as though you're quoting from my post that already existed at the time you hit reply ...

    http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=217598 &cid=17668728

    *scratching head*

    --
    I am, therefore you think.
  18. Re:Heh by tha_mink · · Score: 4, Informative

    Bitten by the ole RTFA bug eh. The quote from the article is

    He found that even if the alien ships could hurtle through space at a tenth of the speed of light, or 30,000km a second, - Nasa's current Cassini mission to Saturn is plodding along at 32km a second - it would take 10bn years, roughly half the age of the universe, to explore just 4% of the galaxy. His study is reported in New Scientist today.

    No mention of colonization there.

    Plus

    Mr Bjork confined the probes to search only solar systems in what is called the "galactic habitable zone" of the Milky Way, where solar systems are close enough to the centre to have the right elements necessary to form rocky, life-sustaining planets, but are far enough out to avoid being struck by asteroids, seared by stars or frazzled by bursts of radiation.

    So there's that too. Looks like you should have taken a look at the article first.

    --
    You'll have that sometimes...
  19. ughh by resignator · · Score: 2

    Speculations like this are complete garbage. Even assuming aliens would have to build a craft to travel here is too much. Who is to say aliens search, travel, or think anything remotely like us? It is like Christopher Columbus saying no one would EVER travel to the moon because sailing there would take more than one person's lifetime.

    --
    "At first, we thought it was just another snake cult."
  20. Scary by SpeedyGonz · · Score: 2, Funny

    72 probes??? First of all, if you're going to do it that way, you'd create hundreds of thousands of probes, if not millions of probes (mass production would reduce the cost). Second, you still probably wouldn't do it that way. You'd wait until you had the technology to make self-replicating probes, and the galaxy could potentially be explored in thousands of years.

    Hmm . . .

    1.- self replicating probes... check
    2.- enuff "intelligence" to determine something it sees/feels/etc is an actual lifeform... check
    3.- humanity's own history making buggy, security lax software... check
    4.- throw in some polymorphic stuff in the software so the probe can better itself...check
    5.- an "easter egg", timebomb prank from a bender-obsessed hacker (MUST KILL HUMANS)... check

    Possible end result? == The cylons :)

  21. a few points to ponder though by bl8n8r · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We are terribly limited by our own ignorance. We barely have an understanding of space travel, dark matter, string theory, time-and-space and many other things. I recall reading something once that said people in the early 20th century believed the human body would shake apart if we traveling faster than 25mph. The knowledge and intelligence of an alien civilization could be so far beyond our comprehension and knowledge that it's almost futile to even speculate. Right now, we think nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, however it wasn't too long ago people also believed the world was flat. I guess we can only make assumptions based on our current knowledge levels, but we must also take into account that there may be ways of doing things that we've simply not discovered yet, or cannot comprehend.

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    1. Re:a few points to ponder though by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      "I recall reading something once that said people in the early 20th century believed the human body would shake apart if we traveling faster than 25mph."

      Men have been riding horses at greater than 40mph since before recorded history. Trains crested the 80mph mark before the US civil war (mid-19th century) and 100mph by the turn of the century.

  22. Fine assumptions, poor conclusion by dyslexicbunny · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I agree. He's only basing his assumptions on our current capabilities and applying them to an unknown alien civilization. Great that he's making these assumptions but his final conclusion, We have not yet been contacted by any extraterrestrial civilizations simple because they have not yet had the time to find us. Searching the Galaxy for life is a painstakingly slow process., is just jumping to conclusions, perhaps invalid for the work he did.

    No one knows what aliens are going to look for in a planet. Our planet could be written off as an inhabitable nitrous sphere. They might be non-carbon based life forms. They could have progressed technologically much faster than we did as you suggested. By assuming aliens match our capabilities, he made an unstated assumption that was key to actually understanding the conclusion.

    A more fitting conclusion from his work would be that it would take US 10 billion years to search a small portion of the Milky Way for life at our current technology levels.

    1. Re:Fine assumptions, poor conclusion by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 2, Insightful
      It would be more helpful if his brain power could be used for more important tasks such as how to cure cancer, save the environment, efficient energy storage and so on.

      People are not ants. They do what interests them. Your time would be better spent, say, feeding the poor, yet here you are on slashdot.

  23. Actually the cylons will find us first by AHumbleOpinion · · Score: 3, Interesting

    We will be in a lot of trouble if the Cylons find us first.

    Actually the "cylons" will find us first, it is far cheaper to send robotic explorers out. Then if anything interesting is found send the "manned" missions.

    1. Re:Actually the cylons will find us first by AHumbleOpinion · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It may be cheaper to send robotic missions, but probably not as much fun. For a race serious about exploring a significant fraction of the galaxy ...

      I'll refer to my second sentence: "Then if anything interesting is found send the "manned" missions." Do you realize how much nothing is out there, where is the "fun" in finding another dead rock just like so many others? Forget the romantic fantasy of spaceflight, it will be uncomfortable, boring, and stressful. With robots doing the scouting there will be a greater number of interesting things for the manned missions to investigate, possible more than could be sent out. Now if manned missions did the initial exploration, the people would largely see nothing of particular interest. I think you are vastly overestimating the novelty of finding another dead rock in space, sure it would interest us, but a generation born after such discoveries become commonplace?

      ... I doubt if the manned vs unmanned costs are an issue driving the choice of exploration method.

      Actually it is a major point of debate, scientists favoring a large number of robotic missions, politicians favoring a handful of manned missions. Manned missions are multiple orders of magnitude more expensive.

  24. RTFP by HBI · · Score: 2, Informative

    He covers these issues. The article summary is misleading.

    Self replicating is ruled out due to risk. That sounds fairly silly since computers are computers. They do what we tell them to and not a thing more. But I suppose a few worrywarts are a good thing.

    The number of probes is more like 2.08 million probes, if i'm reading him right, as his simulation was done at 1/260000 scale.

    --
    HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
  25. I call BS by Spazmania · · Score: 2, Informative

    If you've ever played "Spaceward Ho" you'll recognize that the author has proposed an asinine strategy for exploring the galaxy. Indeed, if you try to play Spaceward Ho by that sort of probing you'll rapidly get your tail kicked.

    A more rational approach is exponential: You colonize a solar system. Then from that system you launch probes at anything reachable. Then you colonize everything reachable that qualifies. Rinse and repeat.

    The main disc of the galaxy is about 100,000 light years across. Assume 10% light speed for probe travel time, light speed for information return and 50 years for each new colony to build infrastructure to a point where they can launch probes. You'd have 90% of the galaxy explored in three or four million years -- almost 4 orders of magnitude less than this fellow's estimate.

    --
    Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
  26. Re:That's assuming... by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Worse than that- the researcher assumes:

    1. That they can't develop PROBES that travel faster than 1/10th the speed of light.
    2. That probes of this form that would keep running long enough would be so massively expensive that even the most ambitious race would only be able to build 8 of them (He does address this complaint, and also considers 200 probes instead of 8, and von Neuman machines instead of static probes, neither of which drop the figures below 4x10^6 years to explore a mere 4% of the Galaxy).
    3. He doesn't even consider non-material, photon-based probing methods, which would increase the rate of exploration by a factor of 10.

    --
    SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  27. Just reported... by grumpyman · · Score: 3, Funny

    Come on, they haven't visited us yet? There were yet another case of alien abduction as reported by the World's Weekly last week.

  28. It has been done already by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The aliens knew they could not send out probes that carry enough energy to beam back the information. So they built generalized adaptive Turing machines, (a machine that can build itself) of incredibly small dimension. They created billions and billions of these machines and scattered them. These machines are so tiny, they get carried by the solar wind and other cosmic radiation.

    One of these Turing machines reached Earth about 4 billion years ago. It first had to start by building very simple amino acids, then it graduated to proteins, then to RNA and then to DNA, and then these DNA machines built bodies around them and started using natural selection to evolve into more and more capable organisms. The final aim of these DNA structures is to build powerful radio beacons and send the information back to the original aliens who created these molecules and scattered them to the (solar) wind.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:It has been done already by btempleton · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You have confused a Turing machine (which is an idealized model of a computation device) with a Von Neumann self-replicating machine.

      --
      Has it been over a year since you last donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation
  29. do the physics, it's about DE-celeration by gelfling · · Score: 2, Insightful

    IT's not the ACCELERATION, it's the DECELERATION. Even if you could apply some force to slowly accelerate a massive space ship, once you got it up to that speed wouldn't it take K^2 (squared) units of fuel to slow it down it again? So let's say it takes a million tons of some super fuel to get your space ark up to speed. Wouldn't it take a million million tons to park it again?

    1. Re:do the physics, it's about DE-celeration by theGreater · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, it would take substantially less as you've already shed a lot of mass, AKA superfuel. So you wouldn't accelerate halfway and decelerate halfway, you'd accelerate 2/3 and decelerate 1/3. Or something like that -- someone better at the various calculus-based disciplines than me might be able to give a better ballpark.

  30. Eat at Earth by Dareth · · Score: 4, Funny

    We are currently broadcasting the galactic equivalent of "Eat at Earth" sign. Remember we consume "lesser" lifeforms for food. I do love a good steak! Who knows if the aliens who find Earth will consider us as equals or as appetizers.

    I am sure their galactic physicians will recommend they don't eat too many humans from the Northwestern Continent due to cholesterol or something, but that they can eat all the yellow humans from the east they want, even if they will be hungry again in a few parsecs.

    --

    I only look human.
    My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
    1. Re:Eat at Earth by arth1 · · Score: 2, Funny
      I think parsecs are measurements of distance, but still +1 funny if I had mod points

      Unless these alieens are doing the Kessel Run, of course.

      Regards,
      --
      *Art
    2. Re:Eat at Earth by mok000 · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's exactly right. One parsec is the distance at which the diameter of the earth's orbit around the sun (1 AU) appears to be 1 sec (=1/360 of a degree).

    3. Re:Eat at Earth by nebosuke · · Score: 2, Informative

      1 AU is the mean radius of the earth's orbit, not the diameter.

    4. Re:Eat at Earth by darklordyoda · · Score: 2, Informative

      I thought the Kessel Run was measured in distance because the Run involved skimming very close to a cluster of black holes, and thus only the boldest would dare to take a shorter route...


      *takes pleasure in fact I'm still at least above Trekkies on the geek hierarchy*

  31. Self replicating probles will doom us ... by AHumbleOpinion · · Score: 3, Funny

    I'd hold off on criticizing others for a lack of imagination. Don't you realize that self replicating probes will doom us? We will be galactic spammers, the aliens will wipe us out as a nuisance. Or our probes will harvest the planet they pray towards, the aliens will wipe us out as heretics and blasphemers. At a very minimum the probes will be crossing the border without proper documentation, the fines and impound fees could leave us in "debtors prison" for millennia.

  32. Re:That's assuming... by hjo3 · · Score: 5, Funny

    "photon-based probing methods"

    You mean looking at stuff through a telescope?

  33. Who says they haven't been past already? by Huntred · · Score: 2, Interesting

    They could have swept by, mapped the planet fully, dropped to look around, grabbed some soil samples wrote their catalog entry, and left to the next one during 99.9% of human history and we wouldn't have noticed.

    Outside of human history - which is just a sliver of whole earthtime - there has been a lot of time on this planet where not much was going on, intelligence-wise. "We've found another planet of ferns, sir."

    Or they could just not be particularly impressed with us. We seem to behave as though we are certain that we are best-looking girl in school so any available boy who doesn't ask us out must be gay or afraid. Take a look around - as a species we fight and squabble endlessly over dirt, water, bizarre ideas and myths. The top quarter of the race could give a crap that the bottom quarter endlessly suffers and dies when there's plenty of food and cures around for all. Maybe instead of sweeping in as benevolent parents to uplift us, they just see us as yet another batch of troublemakers who would not make good company. Above all, a people who definitely do not need a warp drive to take our ways on tour. To them, we could be just another example of a type that either grows out of this stage or eventually kills itself off. When we're worth talking to - and far less likely to shoot them or other folks - they may decloak/pull off their masks/come back.

    Huntred

  34. These are NOT self-replicating probes by Dr.+Spork · · Score: 2, Insightful
    This work is irrelevant to the Fermi paradox since Fermi assumed the probes would replicate themselves. Here is what Bjork says about self-replication:

    In fact if self-replicating probes, or von Neumann probes as they are also termed, were used to explore the Galaxy it has been shown that a search of the entire Galaxy will take 4 106 3 108 years dependent on the speed of the probes (Tipler 1980). This is much faster than using the non-replicative probes proposed in this paper. However, one should note that there could be complications with using self-replicating probes. Tipler (1980) himself points out that the program controlling the self-replicating probes would have to have so high an intelligence that it might "go into business for itself" and become out of control of the humans who designed it, resulting in unforeseeable consequences. Since the machines uses the same resources as humans, a self-replicating machine might regards humans as competitors and try to exterminate them. Chyba (2005) also points out that self-replicating probes-might evolve to prey on each other, creating a sort of machine food-chain. This would of cause drastically reduce their exploration rate. Therefore the conclusion is that if perfect selfreplicating probes could be built, these could explore the Galaxy much faster than the probes suggested here. However, building less-then-perfect self-replicating probes could, in the worst case scenario, have fatal consequences for the human race.

    I think the real debate should be about self-replicating probes. Is the author assuming that every civilization capable of building these is automatically freaked out by potential doomsday scenarios, to the extent that none will be built? Even if it is foolish, I found that it pays to expect more foolishness in the universe rather than less.

  35. Re:Arrogant presumptions by TobascoKid · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A scientist saying things are a certain way based on a theory cannot be right until the theory is proven true and absolutely correct

    Theories are rarely (if ever) "proven to be true" as it's a lot easier to show that something is false rather than absolutely 100% true and correct. Science is more about finding the best model to fit the data than a quest for certainty. Even experiments don't prove theories, they just add to the evidence that a model is the best explanation for a certain phenomenon.

    --
    At some point, somewhere, the entire internet will be found to be illegal.
  36. Re:That's assuming... by Dr.+Spork · · Score: 4, Insightful

    More puzzlingly, he assumes these probes can repair themselves for and keep running for billions of years, but they can't self-replicate. Really? If the probe can repair every potential internal probem on its own, the capacity to self-replicate should come almost for free.

  37. Re:Heh by navyjeff · · Score: 2, Funny
    Looks like you should have taken a look at the article first.

    Thanks for the summary. You must be new here.

  38. Probe Droid? by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 2, Funny
    I can just imagine the conversation in the ET's 'mission control' -

    I think we've got something, sir. The report is only a fragment from a probe droid in the sol system, but it's the best lead we've had.

    We have thousands of probe droids searching the galaxy. I want proof, not leads!

    The visuals indicate life readings.

    It could mean anything. If we followed every lead...

    But, sir, the sol system is supposed to be devoid of humaoid forms.

    That's it. The humans are there.

    There are so many uncharted worlds...

    That is the system! Set your course for the sol system. General, prepare your men!

  39. Why about self-replication? by benhocking · · Score: 3, Informative
    FTFPDF:

    One could also contemplate the idea of launching selfreplicating probes i.e. probes that are able to build copies of themselves by harvesting materials from each stellar system they pass.

    The construction of such probes are technologically as difficult as producing the conventional probes proposed to be used to explore the Galaxy, as these conventional probes must operate for millions, if not billions, of years. Therefore one can argue that self-replicating probes should instead be used to explore the Galaxy, as using such probes will lead to much faster exploration times, as the number of probes increase as time goes by.

    In fact if self-replicating probes, or von Neumann probes as they are also termed, were used to explore the Galaxy it has been shown that a search of the entire Galaxy will take 4 10^6 3 10^8 years dependent on the speed of the probes (Tipler 1980). This is much faster than using the non-replicative probes proposed in this paper.
    So, if they figure out how to use self-replicating probes, the entire galaxy could be probed in 4 Myr - 300 Myr. I suspect solving that technological problem would be a worthwhile investment.
    --
    Ben Hocking
    Need a professional organizer?
    1. Re:Why about self-replication? by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, that's far too much engineering.

      Older calculations where a multi-generation ship went to a star, colonized it, then gave a thousand years to grow the civilization until it could sent out more colonization ships gave a result on the order of millions to tens of millions of years to colonize the galaxy. But this relies on exponential growth, not speed of exploration or "turnaround".

      This guy uses the same finite set of probes to do the searching. He might as well have simply calculated the average distance between the stars in his "Galactic Habitable Zone", then divided by the number of probes. As he points out, you can neglect the time to move a probe to "its own zone", or group of stars, to explore.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  40. Eventually these probes came home by blueZ3 · · Score: 2, Funny

    We've seen this in STTM... V'ger came home and destroyed the sending race in a futile attempt to contact the "creator."

    Face it, we're not going to meet aliens, because they've already been destroyed by their own creations.

    --
    Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
  41. Irrelevant to the Fermi Paradox by careysub · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The study in question does not even address the Fermi Paradox in any meaningful sense, much less "resolve" it. In fact, if this study is being offered as a resolution of the Fermi Paradox then it suggests the researcher does not understand why the Fermi Paradox is a paradox at all.

    The fundamental difficulty with any explanation offered for the complete absence (so far) of any sign of other intelligent life in the universe is that the proposed explanation has to be universally valid.

    The span of time for colonization, or dispersal of replicating probes, or of building vast telescopically detectable artifacts is so great that even one single exception from any proposed explanation would be capable of generating ubiquitous evidence in a tiny fraction of the life of the Universe.

    Simply describing some model for exploration, and then arguing that this model won't do the job says nothing about other models. This study apparently does not consider the geometric growth that occurs with any exploration program that uses some form of replication of explorers, for example. If replication is thought to be impossible then the study would have the high hurdle of convincingly demonstrating this. (The material evidence of life on Earth seems to argue persuasively against it though.)

    Arguments that "interstellar travel is impossible" would qualify for explaining why alien artifacts aren't being found locally (but do not address communication signals or telescopically detectable artifacts), but require convincing arguments that this is indeed true. On the contrary, physics does not seem to make this impossible at all, just very costly and slow. Too costly and slow for anyone to bother? Not even one single civilization?

    The Fermi Paradox seems to be telling something important about the Universe. If only we knew what it is...

    --
    Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    1. Re:Irrelevant to the Fermi Paradox by resonte · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The Fermi Paradox seems to be telling something important about the Universe. If only we knew what it is...




      My hunch is that once a civilisation reaches a certain stage in their evolution when they can simulate reality completely, then they find very little need in continuing to exist in the present Universe, and migrate into this simulated reality.

      What's the point in travesing a Universe that will take billions of years to get basically nowhere, when you can create your own Universe, with it's own rules, having total control of it.

      --
      \(^o^)/
  42. I laugh at people who say things like that by Steeltoe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That's why I laugh when people spot human-sized UFO craft. If there are UFOs here, they're microscopic.

    Assumptions are just that, assumptions. You can laugh all you want, but to me, it just shows one more scientific dogma. The attitude of "knowing it all" is sadly very prevalent here on Slashdot, and probably why so many spend time writing here, instead of discovering new stuff.

    The problem is lack of creativity. In 0.5 seconds, I thought of nano-UFOs. Send one, or trillions of those, and let them dig into a moon or planet to rebuilt itself into a fully fledged macro-sized "UFO". Or, maybe if you want to "recreate yourself in your own image", why not send out organic "bombs"? Etc. etc. There are so many possibilities when you dont restrict your mind.

    Just because you cant think of it, doesnt mean it isnt possible or thinkable. Please free your mind! There is so much more to know than we already know! And instead of giving focus to more effective ways to kill people, why not science of life?

  43. Re:Heh by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Did the scientist consider "electromagnetic radiation" in his calculations about "Probes seeking out only likely solar systems?" We have 50+ years of radio emissions streaming out at the speed of light from our Solar System. So that once a society reaches the industrial age, they would most likely be a lot more noticeable.

    Maybe in a few decades, we will learn that we need to be more circumspect, and try and hide better from alien races.

    Until then, a probe doesn't need to stumble upon us, it might be able to see patterns in radio transmissions. Who knows, if a race can figure out how to migrate through space, it might just know how to detect life from a distance (which I find highly likely).

    They should mod this topic as "speculation."

    >> And on Slashdot, I have the right NOT TO READ THE ARTICLE, before giving my valuable opinion.

    --
    >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
  44. SURVEY by russ1337 · · Score: 4, Funny

    I reckon theres a Slashdot survey on the best way to explore:

    How would you prefer to travel?

    a. A blue Police Box that can traverse space and time, with a hot British former 'teen star' that is obviously in love with your weirdness.
    b. A big ancient ring that can take you anywhere where there is a corresponding ancient ring, but you keep bumping into Egyption dog people who try to kill you.
    c. A large dinner shaped spaceship that does warp factors, but you get to shoot at klingons and make sexy time with green chicks (remember its all about the Journey!) Just dont get assimilated by Bjork!
    d. Travelling with the Robinson family and a stupid robot that shouts "Danger" long after it stopped being funny. Oh and a pedophile.
    e. In a ship that can make the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs - With a great big hairy Wooky and a gay robot.
    e. Spending time on the only ship to have survived an attack by robots with KITT in their face, where it is a daily battle to stay alive.
    f. On a moon that was flung out of orbit by a massive thermonuclear explosion initiated by the build up of magnetic radiation, which there is much debate as to it being caused by global warming.
    g. Traveling across universes with a guy that looks like Mike Moore, where each new universe you 'slide' into is exactly like being on LSD.
    h. On a ship with a dorky hologram an evolved cat, a computer with an IQ of 6000 and a very stupid robot, but every day is hilarious!
    I. The space shuttle. (yawn)

    1. Re:SURVEY by ray-auch · · Score: 3, Informative

      You missed out:

      On a ship shaped like a sleek running shoe, perfectly white and
      mindboggingly beautiful... (if you can stand the manic ship's computer and the terminally depressed robot).

    2. Re:SURVEY by FirstTimeCaller · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'm sorry, I didn't read past your first option. Where do I sign up?

      --
      Wanted: witty unique signature. Must be willing to relocate.
    3. Re:SURVEY by Goonie · · Score: 3, Informative

      you forgot (j): being piggybacked by CowboyNeal.

      --

      Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
      --Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
    4. Re:SURVEY by CptPicard · · Score: 2, Funny

      You're missing a really important option... the ship with the psychotic computer that tries to kill you by locking you out so that you won't interfere with the success of the mission..

      --
      I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
  45. So Many Assumptions by pln2bz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think most people would agree that papers like this are based upon so many assumptions that they are pretty much worthless, regardless of which cosmology you believe in. It's just a product of our affinity for math and our desire to feel like we have more confidence in some sciences than we can actually achieve in the absence of input-output experiments (ie, to varying degrees, astronomy, geology and archaeology).

    But it's interesting to note that the biggest single assumption in this type of logic is that the universe is not infinite in time and space. In a static electric universe, without a beginning to base your calculations upon, chances are high that neither stars nor galaxies have determinable ages. The entire system is essentially "transient" and papers like this are completely meaningless. As painful as it is to imagine it, aliens could have started seeding the universe an infinite amount of time ago. It's possible that not even they could tell you when they started. This is of course no more painful though than imagining what happened before the Big Bang.

    I've also seen it mentioned amongst people who are aware of Electric Universe Theory that the more you understand plasma, the more the plasma of the universe appears to constitute a living organism. The fact that plasma can form double-layers to "protect" its charge suggests parts of a living entity. And if Chip Arp is correct, the notion that spiral galaxies can "spit" out quasars might be the process by which the organism spreads out of its original domain. The stars are the organism's cells and mobile charged particles act as the nutrients for the plasma, which would ironically be like the organism's blood. Within this context, the rocky planets are a rare, harmless non-plasma pocket where we humans, like tiny viruses, can multiply and possibly expand.

    Taking the idea one step further, another strange curiosity of EU Theory is that all of the plasma phenomenon within the universe we've observed thus far are actually electrical loads and transmission lines. Once you've become acquainted with the theory, you begin to wonder what is in fact the *source* of the power. You'd have to conclude that we're likely not in range to view the source, but this is a very interesting question. It's the EU Theory version of asking how old the Big Bang Universe is.

    Weird shit. Once the public starts to learn more about plasma, I think it's inevitable that it will become a popular topic for strange ideas like this.

    --
    "A man cannot begin to learn that which he thinks he already knows." --Epictetus, 1st Century A.D.
  46. Re:Heh by speculatrix · · Score: 3, Funny

    this just in, 1000 telephone sanitizers landed at Kennedy Space Port.

  47. Re:Heh by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sounds like a version of Intelligent design.

    Which I don't say is impossible -- just that counting on ID in a classroom, where you have to teach science is pointless and merely to make Fundies happy.

    I think that humans, in a few more decades, may very well want to "seed" nearby planets with modified earth DNA. The compulsion to do so will be hard to ignore. We could create food or useful organic crops on Mars and Venus -- or just experiment without ecological disaster on earth (or test ways to fix ecological disasters). There will be a lot of protest at first, but history shows that we ALWAYS do something that provides a profit -- whether or not it benefits people or any temporary form of ethics (worrying about Stem Cell, is just a ruse to get patents in the private domain, for instance).

    So, I don't know any way we could disprove that Aliens have not visited earth or manipulated genes in some way. The debate against ID is more about good science -- not trying to disprove every possible explanation.

    We also might be a creation of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Who knows if that 90% "junk DNA" encodes for Meatball + a delicious sauce?

    --
    >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
  48. You don't understand. by raehl · · Score: 2, Insightful

    He doesn't even consider non-material, photon-based probing methods, which would increase the rate of exploration by a factor of 10.

    Doesn't matter. Light only travels so fast, and we've only been here, what, 10,000 years? Nobody further than 10,000 light years away could have possibly found us yet. And a 10,000 light year sphere is well less than 4% of the galaxy.

    This whole study is kind of dumb, because it doesn't matter that you can explore 4% of the galaxy in 4 billion years when we've only been here for 10,000 years. Even if they did come to earth, it's almost certain that when they were here, they found either nothing or some bacteria and kept going.

  49. Such a limited view by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Using *our* current knowledge of physics etc to make predictions as to the performance of *other* beings technology is both arrogant and small minded.

    Let us roll back the clock, say, 200 years: A person up to date with the technology of the time would have no knowledge of airplanes, cars etc would make the some silly statement that it would be impossible for a person to ever cross USA in one day. They'd also say that it is very unlikely to find a particular quote in some random book within three months of searching, Google etc changes that. Change the technology and understanding of physics and we'd laugh at anyone saying something as stupid as that now.

    But won't people 200 years from know laugh at our pathetic understanding of technology and physics? If there is intelligent life (I don't think so personally), it might just be a couple hundred or thousand or whatever years ahead of us and would thus not be bound by the limiting assumptions we make today.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:Such a limited view by owlstead · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As science advances, we learn more and more about the forces that drive nature, and the laws they abide by. Those examples you gave us don't violate any of the known physical lays. I find it a bit disturbing that the advancement of science is taken to mean that everything will become possible. Instead, we better know the posibilities and certainly the impossibilities. Maybe we will find a way around these laws, but I highly doubt it.

      I for one would really like to explore the universe and make contact with alien species. Unfortunately, my just wishing this is the case doesn't make it so.

  50. What context?! by illeism · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...Aliens have not visited earth or manipulated genes in some way.
    Average weight of humans up... sounds like and interstellar Hansel and Gretal
    --
    Help test the /. effect at my min
  51. Nothing to do with the Fermi paradox. by argent · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Let's assume you have a civilization capable of building, fuelling, and launching an autonomous probe like the one described. What is this civilization going to look like?

    1. It's incredibly stable. It's launching an exploration program using probes that are going to take billions of years to get a result back to the original civilization. It expects to be around to pick them up.

    By the same logic:

    2. Individual members are incredibly long-lived, or the society is static and conservative enough that individual goals are submerged. They expect that the people around in a few billion years still care about the stuff they're doing, AND they care about the people who'll be around then.

    The technology he's postulating is also very advanced.

    3. Large scale space-based industry is routine enough for them to build probes capable of refuelling themselves using the raw materials in an as-yet-unexplored solar system, with surplus fuel to launch and recover the sub-probes. If they can do that, they can do the same thing in their own solar system.

    If the probes are cheap by their standards, there's no reason not to keep building them indefinitely. So let's say they're expensive. Let's say it takes this civilization a hundred years to build a probe. Why do they stop after 800 years? They're long-lived, stable, conservative, so assuming they have the will to do it in the first place why would they stop building probes? As the author notes, probes break down.

    So what happens when you add another probe into the search every century, indefinitely? Well, after a million years you've got 10,000 probes out there. Now you're looking at a search time measured in millions rather than billions of years, and it only takes millions of years to do it.

    But why are they doing this? Looking for planets to colonize, perhaps? If they're just looking for civilizations they'd do much better depending on "signal intelligence".

    But if they've got the ability to send out colonies, even the most conservative long-lived space-based civilization is going to figure out eventually that they don't actually need habitable planets to support a permanent colony. It's riskier without habitable planets, but even if the planetless colony is 10 times less stable than the home system you're still better off with your civilization in two baskets. And before long (in the terms of this civilization) you've got a roughly spherical shell of colonized star systems, expanding as fast as they can reach new systems. At 0.1C colonizing (not just exploring) the galaxy is going to take mere millions of years.

    However, one should note that there could be complications with using self-replicating probes. Tipler (1980) himself points out that the program controlling the selfreplicating probes would have to have so high an intelligence that it might "go into business for itself" and become out of control of the humans who designed it, resulting in unforeseeable consequences.


    On the other hand, what if the self-replicating probes are members of the designing species themselves?

    So either this level of technology is impossible to achieve, or we're back to the question of why no species has done it yet. There's lots of plausible answers, of course, but this paper sheds no light on them.
  52. Re:Heh by Fizzog · · Score: 2, Informative

    "we should expect alien technology to be roughly the same as ours, give or take a century or so"

    Not really.

    You need to allow for the mass extinctions in the Earth's past.

    If the mass extinction 250 million years ago (Permian-Triassic) had not occurred then intelligent life may have evolved on this planet over 200 million years ago.

    It would be quite possible for an alien race to be hundreds of millions of years more advanced than us just due to luck.

  53. Re:That's assuming... by mibus · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I'm sure that we are very close to having a "life detector." Life has an impact on the environment, so that has to be detectable in some way.


    You could look for an oxygen/carbon-dioxide atmosphere, but then you're just making assumptions about what sort of life you're looking for...