Slashdot Mirror
MS Seeks Patent For Repossessing School Computers
theodp writes "Microsoft has applied for a patent for 'securely providing advertising subsidized computer usage.' The application describes how face-recognition webcams and CAPTCHAs can be used in schools to ensure that computer users are paying attention to ads, and the recourse of 'disabling or even repossessing the computer' if they are not."
Typical Slashdot garbage, the headline misrepresents the content of the story.
I use plugins that disable ads. Why the hell would anyone want to use this? I can see this going nowhere pretty effing fast.
you vill look at ze ads und you vill vant to punch out ze celebrity? ja?
Is it sad that I am more likely to recognize you and your posts by your sig than your name or UID?
Look at our ads or else. Adblock, Flashblock, and NoScript? No problem! We'll just keep track and take the computer away.
...if you don't look at our ads, we can reposess this board...
:(
Sheesh. I guess that's what happens when you don't own the hardware. Although I swear I keep expecting that one of these days I'm going to open the box for a mainboard, have to cut some tape to get the box open, and find a note inside that reads:
End User License Agreement
By opening this box you agree to the terms of this agreement...
I'm in a bad mood today.
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
who can't afford a 100-200$ computer ? what are you going to sell them ?
of course the solution is simple in regard to children, simply forbid advertising of any kind that is directly targeted at a minor
people who prey or exploit kids need help, 9mm help
So this is basically almost the exact same things as companies that help pay for your car if you put an advertisement on the side...except more discreet, right?
I personally think this is a good idea.
It will help people that can't afford computers (and therefore can't get into certain lines of business) have one of today's most useful inventions.
Why would a company create something to enforce students to watch ads and not learn.... Yea, that makes perfect sense when most children these days don't have the funds to buy at pizza if they wanted to.
This patent application was filed at the end of 2005... why is it just now coming up?
I already thought the world was on the verge of coming to an end, but this seals the fucking deal. This is absurd. So it's not just the soda, snack and media companies with their hands in the school pockets, but MS and this shit? I remember the uproar over channel 1 and their (literal) one minute of advertising during the 14 minute program, but this takes the fucking cake.
What next, they going to start writing the textbooks?
Didn't Apple used to give deep discounts to schools to get the kids hooked to become paying users later in life?
Help us Steve, you're our only hope....
...ads watch you.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Although instead of Microsoft good people should patent all kinds of stupid/evil business ideas to prevent others from inflicting them upon the public.
RedHat did this idea actually, by patenting a DRM mechanism and vowing not to use it.
A diet pepsi costs the following- can you match them up?
1) $1.00
2) $1.25
3) $1.39
with
A) Work Vending Machine
B) School Vending Machine
C) Grocery Store
If you said 1-B, 2-A, and 3-C, you're Right!
What does that mean? Exploit the students. Get them addicted to soda, (We called it 'coke' where I come from and for good reason), profit insanely at their completely disposable income, and they'll continue to provide for you the rest of your corporate career!
This patent is sickening. Schools currently use IE, but as they switch to ad-blockable content (anything available for IE) then there is SO much profit-potential lost it's absurd.
We (I and several other individuals) mentor about 30 HS students. It is TRULY amazing how much their minds are like sponges- and how easy it can be to inadvertently modify their behavior. An unkind word, a stern glance, and the next thing you know they want nothing to do with that topic. It's insane. The mentors themselves end up having to walk this twisted line of professional dedication (our backgrounds) and playing psychologist ("How does that make you feel").
Let's face it- the whole point of this is about money, and cash is king. The brains are just too wired for this behaviour (Nestle's Chocobot hour) to be anything but profitable thru very specific programming.
They'll get the patent..... and it'll be up to us to fight the intrusion into the school. Here's a hint- it'll be over a decade, nice and slow, thru 'gifts' of OS and computers...
Let see how far M$ can get with trying to repossess State Property.
How many school would even sign up for this? I did read about some thing like this a few years ago in pcworld and it said that the school could not install any software and they had to open up the lab to the people who gave them the computers for there own uses. It also used SAT internet. I think it was called zapme or something like that.
Maybe they want to patent it so that nobody else can. I can't see M$ wanting to see something like this in use under their name. I can't see Microsoft wanting anybody to use this sort of thing. Talk about an incentive to get Linux - sheesh.
An other patent should cover the development of an application, that Microsoft software users can install on their computers. This software will keep a global database of all Microsoft product crash world wide, tracking the software name, version, time of crash, time of recovery. This application could keep track of all the Microsoft software crashes, the time from crash to recovery, calculate and publicly display at a web site the number of crashes, the number of lost time and other statistics.
An other patent should cover how companies can reposess licence fees from Microsoft for lost productivity of crashing software, using the first patent, as basis for a class-action law suite.
Dear Microsoft: FUCK YOU
What does this really have to do with schools? They're used in one example but the general idea seems to be only indirectly related to them.
I hate it when our politicians do it, and I hate it just as much when you do it.
The summary ( and link ) say nothing about schools. Putting that in the title is egging for a flame war. It makes you ( the submitter and editor ) look like an idiot.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Microsoft: We're the Douchiest!
The word "school" is contained within the patent exactly once.
Move over Zonk...
As long as hardware specs remain open, that won't happen, but our current open marketplace is under threat from ideas like (nearly) mandatory driver signing in Vista (if you want the content), and DRM. Their purpose is to restrict the openness of the PC architecture.
The PC marketplace happened nearly by accident, through what would today be called hardware piracy by OEMs seeking to undercut IBM's monopoly over the PC architecture. You know the history, I'm sure.
The best innovation happens when engineers are free to innovate and motivated to do so. DRM, driver signing, authentication, keys, patents, licenses... these are all hinderences, concessions made to preserving the status quo, to protecting Big Money. The grey market drove the PC revolution, the little guys. Now the people who benefitted from that want to become and stay some sort of new IBM by controlling the architecture through crypto. The irony is palpable.
The crackers, the hardware hackers, they are today's heroes, as much as the IBMBIOS revengineers were way back when. They keep the wildcards in play, the market free. Vista touts security... it's not just security from worms, or viruses they're aiming for, it's security for Microsoft against the crackers that keep the playing field open, and the DRM behemoth at bay.
occultae nullus est respectus musicae - originally a Greek proverb
Wire up the chair and every time they look away give them a shock.
Companies need to make money to keep (usually avaricious) share holders happy, so there will always be companies that sink to new lows in order to do so. But this one, if true, is a case of such behavior from, not just a company that tests lowness regularly, but from a company that has run out of ideas.
Time to begin moving your money out, if you haven't already started.
This happens time and time again on Slashdot: the article title and summary mislead us into believing something the article doesn't even mean, or the article is misleading and sensationalist itself, and no one bothers to confirm its accusations before putting it on the front page for thousands to see. Time and time again we're tricked into taking a stand, and then look like idiots later.
Just because it's about Microsoft, doesn't mean you have to buy it. Sure, you want to believe it; I want to believe it. But if the trick works on us now, it'll be used in the future, to position you against issues you would stand for otherwise. One of the noblest actions a man can take is not take a public stand against something he knows nothing about. Don't comment on this until you RTFA.
Since when do school kids pay attention to anything anyway, let alone boring ads? Most of them will be so busy boucing around and yapping about whatever the big fad of that particular time is that the sensor won't know what to make of it. Unless, of course, they follow up with the Microsoft Children's Head Vice.
Control, it's not just a button on your keyboard but your future master.
Didn't Apple used to give deep discounts to schools to get the kids hooked to become paying users later in life?
Apple's education discounts are generally about 30% off list price, sometimes lower for certain promotions or bulk discounts. I remember Apple selling a "six pack" of Macintosh Classic computers for something like $600 each, when the regular retail list price was $999 (or about $799 when Wal-Mart was selling them just before the Classic II came out). The deepest education discount I've ever seen was for the Macintosh LC, LC II, LC III, and LC 475 aka Quadra 605 machines from Apple's low-cost-color line. You've probably seen them, very slim machines, about 2 inches tall, usually with a matching low-profile 12" - 15" monitor sitting on top. The original LC was list price for about $2300 without montior, the education price was closer to $1000. By the time the LC 475 came out the retail list price was $900, education price was $800. Too bad most schools spent their budgets buying the original LCs, as the LC 475 was a really good deal with its 25/50 MHz 68040 CPU and fairly fast graphics (for 1993).
I cant see this affecting schools...I just read the patent and it says that they are "giving some service or software at a reduced cost or free in exchange for mandatory ad viewing and feedback" Net zero and PeoplePC built companies that ultimately failed on similar logic. (Net Zero restructured and now sells $9.99 dial up now)
It boils down to this: no commercial product or service is free...either pay in cash or in time/privacy/inconvenience. Of cource, you do not NEED windows and MS office, Linux and Mac OS X are there too ya know!
Does it mean the future will be more like "a clockwork orange" and less like "1984" ?
..the sheer imagination which has gone into this slashdot summary. I, for one, have read the patent, and although it doesn't sound like the most appealing piece of technology in the world, a one-line summary would be "a computer provided by a service provider or parent entity of some sort which is subsidised by, or pays the user to view, advertisements hard wired into the computer".
Bending this into one extreme use-case of such technology, and basing the slashdot article around it is simply masterful FUD-mongery of the sort that Microsoft themselves should envy.
Seriously, read the patent. It's not actually *that* bad.
Besides, the article is so stupid it should be modded off topic.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
yes, because the kids need to be paying attention to the ads on their computer, and not to getting an education. "come get these free computers, all it costs is your education"
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
This is utter bs. There is no article, just a patent and the word "school" is used exactly once as an example organization. The patent is to help ad supported services get the necessary revenue when allowing free usage. Think public internet terminal.
---
When an incorrect response is supplied, or fails for another reason, the "No" branch from block 411 may be followed to block 414, where the incorrect response may be analyzed with respect to a policy for incorrect responses. The policy may specify a number of allowable incorrect answers, either in total or during a period of time, for example, 3 incorrect answers per day or 30 incorrect answers per month. When the allowable number of incorrect answers has been exceeded, several response are possible, from noting a user's record but taking no action, to a follow up communication with the user, to disabling or even repossessing the computer 110. The policy may be directed to a single computer and thereby a single user or subscriber. Alternately, the policy may extend to a group of computers and correspondingly to a common owner, for example, a business or school. When the limit of incorrect responses is reached as an aggregate of group of computers, a sanction may be imposed or a higher level of monitoring may be initiated.
---
What is this "pop" you speak of?
Somebody at Microsoft didn't understand what somebody else was doing...
The whole reason for Microsoft giving free computers to schools in the first place was to get them used to the Windows OS, and hopefully prevent them from wanting to switch to Linux. It wasn't supposed to be just a short-term revenue stream.
If they actually use this, schools will start saying no thanks to their "free" computers - which will, in the long term, be a serious blow to Microsoft.
If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
- is
actually fairly innovative and unique. Now to the best of my knowledge, patents aren't supposed to be concerned with the morality of the application, but the originality and non-obviousness of it.Microsoft should be hung out to dry for this, but from a patent aspect, it's valid.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
I hope those webcams catch me flipping Bill G the middle finger.
Youngsters are our most volnerable...if this thing really does hit schools, it could be really disgustingly bad: would the over-weight kid who is trying to lose weight (at the insistance of parents and doctors) be hit with candy ads? What if a kid searches out things about suicide because things arent going too well...will he see ads for guns or rope? what about the kid who is looking for porno, will he see ads for playboy (YES playboy/Maxum/Hustler DO target the under-18 crowd?...I got invites to subscribe to all of those when I started buying college books at Follets at age 17, preping for summer semester before HS graduation... this could be a huge cluster-f**k...
I thought of this very system over three years ago, although it wasn't for the nefarious purpose of forcing school children to watch targetted ads. The idea actually was to set up a system whereby internet users could sit down, and watch ads for a few minutes to earn some money (sell your time). Obviously I take let's say 2% of what they get. I needed a way to check if the user was actually watching the ads, and the system sounds remarkably what MS guys were able to come up with. I didn't have the time to set up the site.
This situation to me highlights some of the annoying aspects of patents. First, if I had billions of dollars of cash lying around, I would have this patent (would've applied without a second thought). How then, is this system helping individual innovators rather than big corporations? Second, isn't it clear that the patent system isn't promoting R and D in this particular case?
On the plus side, I do believe a site has recently popped up that does what I wanted to do, and they probably have implemented a comparable system. Therefore, MS might lose this patent on the grounds of prior art, which is a plus.
Also, I wonder whether MS intends to charge for the webcams being provided, since they are required for the face tracking, but the schools might not (and probably don't) want them.
"Of cource, you do not NEED windows and MS office, Linux and Mac OS X are there too ya know!"
So Reader Rabbit now works on Linux? Do you realize that there's more to schools than just MS and Office, don't you?
I'd hate to see the Ballmer way.
if the person is wearing sunglasses, would the computer tell if they are looking at the ads or not? what about if someone just blocked the camera? (a little beyond reality here) what if you took a photo of a person looking in the location of an ad, then put the photo infront of the camera at the proper scale?
The computers repossessed you!
I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them.
Teacher: "Johnny, why are you late for turning in your test?"
Johnny: "The letters you have to type in the box... well It took me 29 minutes just to get the right letters in after the ad - to get back to submit the test online. Wasn't that why you were late sending us the link to the test?"
to even think this'd get off the ground, you're crazy... I mean really, who the heck is going to buy a computer, then?
I can see it now: MS office 2008 - mind control edition
"Youngsters are our most volnerable...if this thing really does hit schools, it could be really disgustingly bad:"
I agree we should keep violent games away from our children.
I just burned all my mod points on my last slashdot visit on stupid stories. Figures something good is posted right afterward.
You're nothing; like me.
From the Article:
"A method and apparatus for assuring delivery of paid advertising to a user may involve asking a question about an advertisement or requiring data about the advertisement to be entered."
So now the ad providers quiz you and the teachers?
That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
I suppose there would be "prior art", so how about "Armed Robbery using computers and the Internet" ?
"people who prey or exploit kids need help, 9mm help"
Prepare your little ones to feel like the VIPs they are, when playing Lua Lua games! It's a particularly pleasing pack of 7 Linux games for kids ages 3 to 7.
---
"Slashdot requires you to wait between each successful posting of a comment to allow everyone a fair chance at posting [the same inane comments they always do]."
Many here will remember Whittle Communications.
Whittle's specialty was marketing to the captive audience.
Familiar magazines disappeared from your doctor's waiting room to be replaced by Whittle's glossy, content-free substitutes. Whittle was never subtle. It was all or nothing.
Schools were offered free sattelite dishes, educational programming, VCRs, and other high-tech goodies.
In exchange, students would be required to watch the twelve minute commercial Channel One News, nine days out of every ten.
VE HAVE VAYS
Anyone using a a MS computer, should have it reposessed.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
"DRM, driver signing, authentication, keys, patents, licenses... these are all hinderences, concessions made to preserving the status quo, to protecting Big Money."
Sez you!
Everybody is concentrating on how offensive this is, but there is another issue. Isn't this all perfectly obvious? How can this be patentable? Finding out if people are paying attention by quizzing them on what they were supposed to be watching is an old schoolteacher trick. As far as I can see from skimming the patent application there is nothing remotely innovative in the technology they use to do this.
Microsoft is giving us more valid reasons to successfully argue that they have no place in the classroom.
They're making is very clear that they are achieving the kind of critical mass where they will act with impunity.
It isn't enough that they make an OS that exploits people at home, now they're seeking to patent a way to enforce it on students.
So how long before this kind of thinking migrates to television?
"We're sorry _Survivor_ is withheld for (countdown)min. until the next commercial break because you muted three or more commercials. In order to ensure an uninterrupted broadcast you must maintain at least a 25 db. audio output and not avoid the screen. Thank you."
Or better yet,
Ben checks his online bills and sees a slightly larger cable bill.
"Hey, honey. Why is the cable bill $20 more...oh crap, it says there's a fee for _Subsidy-Avoidance_ WTF is that?"
"Remember when I told you that if we removed that feedback box they'd tag on a fee?"
"I don't get it..." He scratches his head and looks at the TV.
"Remember how our subscription rates for Office went up because we didn't agree to run an ad validator? It's the same thing." She says as Ben looks for something to kick and starts wondering where he put that extra cable box.
At least they aren't trying to tell us that this will keep us safe...yet.
Every new form of media has it's own Requirimento
Back when I was a whippersnapper, we had these crazy things called "quizzes." The teacher would show us some information, and then later on we'd have to answer questions about it, just to be sure we'd understood it.
Of course, when my teachers did it, the point was to teach me stuff that would be useful later on. Like being able to spell words so I don't sound like an idiot, or add up numbers reliably. With this, the point is to boost some corporation's profit margin by pushing products on impressionable kids. Yuck!
What does this patent, which is actually a clever way to get subsidized computers into underprivledged areas, have to do with schools?
The patent only mentions "school" once, in the context that it can be used "at a business or school".
So if a location opts to install ad-funded computers, then what's so wrong with that?
-David
Skinner: We can buy =real= periodic tables instead of these promotional ones from Oscar Meyer. ... delicious?
Krabappel: Who can tell me the atomic weight of bolognium?
Martin: Ooh
Krabappel: Correct. I would also accept snacktacular.
- [ . . . ] several response are possible, from noting a user's record but taking no action, to a follow up communication with the user, to disabling or even repossessing the computer.[ . . . ]
- [ . . . ] Alternately, the policy may extend to a group of computers and correspondingly to a common owner, for example, a business or school.[ . . . ]
Shame on you, submitter & editor. This is NOTHING but sensationalism. The notion of "repossessing" the computer is used as an example of a step that could be taken if the advertising is not being paid attention to. Since the terminal is financed by that advertising, it would make sense to stop paying for it and take it back for redeployment elsewhere. If I'm an advertiser, I'd prefer not to keep paying for a billboard that nobody pays attention to.The notion of these computers being used by a school is used as an example where the patent discusses tying certain criteria to multiple computers owned by a common owner, "for example," a business or school. So, say you provide some of these adveritising-funded public terminals to an organization, such as a business or school, what you're doing is tying the policy for multiple systems to a common owner.
But the summary & title make it sound like MSFT is targeting school computers as if they could just swoop in, snatch them all up, and resell them on the black market. This is one of the lamest attempts at MSFT-bashing I've seen. Bash them if you must, but for god's sake, bash them for something that's actually a REAL issue, not this crap. What's next? "MSFT submits patent for punching babies, snapping bra straps of young mothers?!"?
I'd say I expect better of the editors, at least, but well... it IS slashdot.
This patent application was filed at the end of 2005... why is it just now coming up?
It may have just attracted attention, but the reason for the patent may be less of an issue as the mountain it's made out to be. It could be nothing more than preventing some upstart such as BE/OS or someone else like IBM with OS/2 from providing computers with an advertising revenue stream in competition to the MS stranglehold on the desktop. Maybe they don't want another i-Opener on the market.
"We have free computers for your school. The advertising will pay for them."
MS.. "Umm think again. We patented the model"
The truth shall set you free!
To hell with ads. Have hired goons come and beat the money out of you. Saves MS the trouble of marketing, etc.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
I can't wait to appear some humanitarian philantrope, who buys out and dissolves Microsoft to end this cancer of modern society.
You know, I've been getting extremely tired of reading about Microsoft crap on slashdot. I get the feeling "just die! (like SCO will)".
Btw, I was just reading some old 1984 computer mags, and saw some MS ads. Among other things they contained the following:
Microsoft.
Right. First time.
The astute reader will notice the typos, but for others, let me correct that:
Microsoft.
Wrong. Every time.
Yah... but Macs are more expensive, and BSD is too difficult. (Well, I haven't tried BSD, but that's its rep.)
Reader Rabbit doesn't work on Linux, as far as I know. I also don't know of any schools that use it. Linux does have several educational packages...generally the teacher would need to prepare the inputs as a part of her lesson prep. It probably wouldn't be much (any?) more difficult than such is already.
You don't really WANT a prepackaged thing like Reader Rabbit in a school room. You want something more adaptable and controlable...or you're better off just skipping the computer. Reader Rabbit is fine for a home situation...well, I suppose it is. It's been on the market for decades. (OTOH, my ideas of the program may be well dated. I'm remembering a version for the Apple Mac LC(2? 3?).)
Still, I have seen a few, a very few, commercial programs that I though worth the space they would occupy in a schoolroom. None of them are still published. They weren't entertaining enough for the home market.
If there is any good educational software being published now, I don't know of it. So Linux is as good a choice as any. There is rudimentary educational software (flashcards, etc.) There are programming languages. There are web browsers. Etc. Not perfect for the lower grades of primary school, but starting to get better as you get to junior high, and definitely what you need in high school or college.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Let's say some Foolish Advertiser specifies this action for all of their ads, though, and compare that with some real-life situations.
- You wake up. You drink some coffee, watching the morning news, and ads pop up every 10 minutes. In this situation, you may not be awake enough to view the full ads consciously, and you don't even need to listen to them -- there's a Mute button on your remote. Some of the ad's images and sound may attract your attention and stick in your head.
- You go to work. You drive on the highway, with some billboards around you. In this situation, your eyes may stay on the road, or jump to the billboards as their colors attract your attention.
- At work, you sometimes get bored. (Yes, it does happen
:) You browse some websites, containing small Flash games. The ads are on the top of the website, so you quickly scroll down to hide them. Though, if an ad attracted your attention, you might click on it.
Note how every one of these has "attract your attention" somewhere in it. That is the goal of advertising: presenting you with an image of a product, unintrusively, hoping that your attention will be drawn to it and that you will buy the product.If your computer disables other output to present you an ad from the Foolish Advertiser when you were working on something else, you will not want to look at it. It has stopped your current flow of work; it is intrusive. You might have been typing in a word processor and your keyboard input was redirected to the ad's verification field; you might have been playing Quake and your character got fragged while the video output was grabbed by the ad; and so on. In these cases, you'll be annoyed and just want to get the verification over with as quickly as possible, while leaving your computer usable.
I even foresee this algorithm included in a future version of a certain browser (hint: look at the Assignee Name filed in the patent), used by web pages and exploitable by spyware/adware for even better targeted advertisements.
Net result: for the users, a needless compulsory intrusion into their work, which is not possible with a TV (does it tell you to press a specific button on your remote to confirm you saw the ad?) or with billboards (does it grab your head and force your eyes open to view the ad?); and for the marketers, more and more annoyed customers spreading the word about this advertising strategy, thus less sales. Oh, and did I mention more and more annoyed customers?
horrifying
Like the dinosaurs, M$ is getting too big and thinking too small. A better patent for them would be a PC that runs on blood, sucking it right out of you while you stare at it. Call it Windows IV.
Im really sick of all this advertising CRAP!!!
There are laws against subliminal advertising correct?
With all the studies done on advertising and fine tuning ads for specific markets and attention spans, that we're subjected to EVERY WAKING MOMENT (and asleep if you leave the tv on lol), can't we pretty much just call all advertising subliminal? Or at least go back to hiding them subliminaly so i can be a good little sheep and drink Mt.Dew and eat Doritios without being FORCED to watch ads? Feed them to me silently in the background so all i see is the real content i want.
When i see advertising most of the time it just turns me off your product and i'll go out of my way to avoid it =P
I always thought Windows machines were already possessed by the Devil.
I should patent "a method for blindly validating incomprehensible complex written proposals without merit" and then sue the patent office.
Moderator hint: a comment is neither "Flamebait" nor "Troll" if it is true.
it goes like this:
In soviet russia you watch computers, in redmond the computer watch you!
get it right next time...
The soviets are the guys that are into freedom and are worried that the US is causing nuclear proliferation...
get with the times man get with the times!
I'm an avid open-source user/advocate just like many slashdot readers, but the frequency of misleading anti-microsoft titles and propaganda approved by the editors has relegated /. to the list of sites you have to be forced to visit. It right above foxnews.com for me.
Pity, used to lub this place.
- AC
Wow! I'm sorry. I wasn't paying attention...
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
Isn't this really a patent to combat google or other search engines that get their money from adds?
Money is the root of all evil?
We've already seen cash-strapped schools include video advertisements disguised as "Current Affairs". Other schools have formed deals with Pepsi and Coke that require them to consume so much per week in order to maintain the support for school lunches (yes the students do get fat). So yes, I could definitely see a cash-strapped school taking a sweetheart deal with Microsoft to get modern machines provided their students watch so much web advertising. Such things are typically welcomed by people who want to cut taxes and "Run Schools Like a Business".
After all, as long as taxes are lowered who cares?
Remember in the late 90s how all those companies started out providing free internet based on ad viewership? Remember how they all went under, except for NetZero who despite their name, started to charge? Even if there is a way to validate that the ads are being consumed by all applicable targeted marketing metrics, it still is a question of how much is it really worth? Everyone has this huge fear of Microsoft due to them being a behemoth that cannot be stopped. Look at the xbox platform, and how much money it lost for the company. They gained mindshare, but lost dollars on the bottom line p&l. Microsoft is not really as big as the stock price indicates; just because they have all the money now does not mean they will always continue to control the industry. This whole concept of a value behind mindshare and current installed user base will mean nothing when the next clever innovator simply comes up with a better/more economical product. This could be Apple, or a Linux vendor, or anybody really. I am going to bet right now that as soon as this competition is actually stepped-up, Microsoft will topple, and the computing industry will simply hit another watershed.
This should be illegal if it's not already. Messing with personal freedom is something that should not be easily let go even under disguise of IP laws (eg. patents). In a way, this is patently wrong.
It'll never be patented... prior art already exists... I believe you can clearly see it in a "Clockwork Orange".
Well me lit'le droogies, I thinks it's gonna be a wee bit of the in'n'out in yer frontal lobes, an if ya tries ta stop watchin', we're gonna shock yer yarbles till we smell smoke!
Genda
Amount of hatred it would generate would make jihadists peaceful protesters by comparison.
I think MicroShaft has developed a new form of advertising: Strong-Arm Advertising.
Now they will be able to punish you for not looking at their ads. I smell a rat, and it's heading toward the next EULA revision. If they sneak this into their EULA, they will be able to reposses your computer or OS because you either didn't look at their ads or installed anti-ad software.
Jesus, advertising is starting to spiral wayyy out of control, to the point where companies are now using blatant intimidation tactics and threats to force you to look at their advertisements. I'm not one for more laws, but this is a hole that needs some patching.....fast!
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
The USTPO might wish to check this for prior art.
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
Surely this is a joke.
Do you know how many times I was sent to the principals office for not paying attention to my schoolwork, or how many report cards I got with low grades explained by "Joseph needs to learn to ignore distractions" ?
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
Microsoft owes perhaps all of its success to indoctrination (Windows pre-installed in every PC sold), and this is just more of the same, but blatently. We seem to be approaching an age where more OS's will work on more computers (think Mac/Intel), and MS is just preparing for that: a less-profitable but just-as-effective means of getting first dibs on human computer-using habits, as a first-time user and a free OS becomes a paying customer when he's "trained" and its update time. Same method, just added sleaze.
This is nothing new though. There are many companies notorious for the "get 'em young' approach through in-school endoctrination - Colgate is a better-known example, with their free but branded "dental hygene information kits" that gave just as much space to the benefits of their own product (over all others) as they did actual advice on tooth care.
No, no sig. Really.
ThePromenader
/me thinking of the "Learning Machine" in "The Under-Gifted"...
Get a lollipop for a row of good answers, one slap for a wrong answer (and you better not give multiple wrong answers in a row...)
I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of killer sig, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=118075&cid=998 0688
not to be confused with someone who actually has been around here longer than you.
my password really is 'stinkypants'
In my experience, school can NOT decide wich computer to use.
my story:
I'm just a student in my high school, i wanted to use a linux terminal-server project on our "old" lab (mostly p3, one or 2 p4).
they agreed to make me do all the software setup, but... in a new computer-room...
i warned them that i could do it on the old lab, and they could buy new computers for an other lab, and proposed to help choosing the server&terminals...
at the end the terminals were 20 amd sempron 3400+, 1gb ram, geforce 7300, 160gb hd, 19"lcd...
the server was a p4 3.0ghz, 1 gb ram, video integrated, hardware raid (wich i can't use because there are no drivers...sigh...)...
"we have to make a councourse to see who has the best offer when we have to spend more than 1000 euros... only one manufacturer responded, and those where the cheapest... so we had to take a cheap server..."
hell, immagine 20 openoffice-writer or eclipse working at the same time... o... it's useless to say that those pc came with windows xp installed ("o... but they give us also windows! and office!and it's cheaper for schools!"... sigh...)
if this goes on, it WILL be used in schools as they upgrade computers... at least in italy... sigh...
and think of it... are the ones who choose computers smart enough not to accept the only offer? and are the vendors dumb enough to say what "features" the computer they buy will have?
I think this is a very bad idea.
1. You're dealing with forcing individuals in their formative years, to look at advertisements which have been pyshologically designed to influence spending / desire.
2. I'm sure the least amount of effort will be put into controlling the content and reviewing the moral implications of such a system if the patent is granted.
3. Microsoft is displaying it's bottom line here, which obviously is not about helping out schools who need the help and promoting education, but the fact that money is far more important than education will ever be. The meaning behind charity is to give with out the intention of return...remember that concept?
The fact that they would consider taking the computers back if students don't look at the ads is downright grotesque to me.
The institution of the corporation is getting away with far too much at this point. I hope this idea is squashed before it even begins, and if it is granted...that no schools are even lacking enough in moral fiber to accept such a ridiculous deal from such a greedy company as Microsoft. I wish them nothing but the worst of luck and bankruptcy in this endevour.
Well, you should ask some law to be established which would prevent any kind of commercial ads being displayed in schools, and prevent any kind of donations which would depend on showing/displaying ads. Laws should be created that say that donations given to schools or charity [etc] could not be given with such requirements [i.e. one could post the name of donating entity on a website and such, but forcing students to watch ads shouldn't be allowed].
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
I don't think that this patent is valid.
Obviously the prior art goes to Anthony Burgess the author of 1962 SF novel "Clockwork Orange":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clockwork_Orange
Here are images from Stanley Kubrick movie based on that novel:. jpg j pg j pg
http://www.atthemovies.co.uk/big/clockwork99rrlc1
http://moviescreens.tripod.com/clockwork/clock12.
http://moviescreens.tripod.com/clockwork/clock13.
What's next? "MSFT submits patent for punching babies, snapping bra straps of young mothers?!"?
Why, Microsoft is only seeking to patent a method for easily determining which babies' faces look the most fragile and which mothers have easily gripped bra straps! The actual phrases "punching the baby" and "snapping the bra strap" only appear once in the patent! How Slashdot could be so quick to snap to judgement against a patent which only briefly suggests baby punching, I just don't understand.
Holy crap, did M$ actually make a pledge to do only evil?
Imagining that a company was to try giving free hardware in exchange for viewing ads:
A) What would prevent the company/individual from installing their own Operating System? Right now, the most "unfriendly" x86 platform are the Intel Macs, and they're not *that* hard to install another OS on. Would they create a proprietary efi replacement, or worse -- include the bootloader in ROM? Even still, m86k and early PPC-based Macs used to have in-rom bootloaders and they were hacked around.
B) What possible business model would make it possible to provide ad-based computers, when ad-based internet service providers failed? Of course, those ISPs had users circumventing the ads in various ways, sharing the internet amongst other computers; these problems would've decreased the value to advertisers (who wouldn't want to pay for ads that weren't even being seen). However, I'm still not convinced that anyone would take such a risky business model, when much "safer" business models of the same ilk have failed.
All I can say is wow. I understand they are trying to leverage themselves within the school system by providing free computers, but the concept that they would patent a system of advertising and reposession is something that would most certainly come back to haunt them if they ever used it. Just imagine the commercial: MS Guy: "hi we are here to reposses the computers from your school" Apple Guy: "hi there, we have a bunch of free computers for your school. We think you will like them ;)"
I am open source, and Linux baby!
i remember that more than once a professor/tecnician was sued for having installed the seti client (or was an aids project?) because it wasted system resources and it caused slowdown to the computer...
do you think this concept could be applied also here?
From the link that you submitted:
Please read stuff before you link it, or if you would care to challenge the fact that I was around back when Slashdot was in the 4 digit time, issue the challenge correctly and I will answer your challenge with an adequate response.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
Consider determining whether students are paying attention to the course material, or the chat window they popped up...
After all, I've yet to see a school-provided "secure" computer that wasn't cracked by one or more students within a month. The crackers are always able to get through any reasonable security measures, including innocuous password cracker disks, booting from another image to install banned software, etc.
The only "secure" systems I've actually seen forced a weekly image down the throat of every desktop to ensure that they remained identical. No unauthorized software showed up on those machines for more than a few days, then all it's registry entries and links were gone over the weekend.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
In 1985-1986, the University of Saskatchewan in Saskatoon was researching the use of "attention" cameras for education software and as a disability aid. In the former arena it was used to determine which parts of the display a user was paying attention to, and thereby what topics were of interest. In the latter area it was being used in conjunction with "single mouse button" interfaces like a blow-tube to determine what a disabled individual wanted to do.
Patent denied. In fact, if any patents were applied for back then, they'd be approaching expiry.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Microsoft is supposed to be making money any way possible
That's certainly how Microsoft is currently operated.
But it's supposed to be making money any legal way possible. A rather important difference.
This exact practice - i.e.: forcing ads on students - is illegal inpublic education in several european countries.
In France, public schools aren't allowed to give material "sponsorized by [whatever]" to students.
It hasn't been enforced very well up until now, but MS-Computers that force kids to watch adds is sure to stir up enough noise in the media to attract attention.
One more of those Microsoft's stupid moves that encourage people to pursue the migration to OSS that is already very active in EU.
(insert revelent StarWars quote here...)
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
if microsoft jumps the gun and starts reposessing computers from schools early, you KNOW this will be big news and will scare off other schools from using this kind of program to fill their classrooms with windows bloatware.
Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
Fantastic, donate computers to schools,
... ....
take a tax deduction,
make money from adverts,
make more dogma child-bots,
elect George Bush II (or Jana) for president in 2025.
gODD bLess the ewe ESS (big mesh mess),
corporatism and corporate welfare at its best working
for profit before democracy or capitalism. Anyway FTA
This is all hysterically funny in a very dark/sick-humor
sort of way it only cost US about a few thousand Warriors
as of today, maybe more of our children tomorrow.
Plutocrats for corporatism-welfare have nothing to do with
Democracy, Capitalism, Civil Rights a/o Religious Freedom,
but plutocrats' minions in news, politics, religion
the public will spin reasonable a/o believable lies (out
of truth) for the pseudo-savant talking-heads in media,
government, religion, public, and military. We USA Citizens
owe our souls to the company store and for the last 50 years
or more we continue to ask for more loss of life, liberty,
happiness, hope, dreams, security
I mean you get a BJ in the "O", you get impeached for lying
to congress about performing private and personal sex acts.
That was hysterically funny in a very dark/sick-humor
sort of way and shouted the truth about US in America.
Now we have a GB in the "O", that won't get impeached for lying
to congress about everything that got us into a personally
rewarding war for his family, friends, and nepotism cronies that
cost US the life and limbs of Moms, Dads, Brothers, and Sisters.
Hysterically funny in a very dark/sick-humor sort of way.
Summary: A BJ in the "O" is more a criminal act then war
profiteering and causing the deaths of thousands of USA
Warriors, global, regional, and USA security destabilization,
economic and energy run-away inflation (Between Iraq start and
now, the USA $ is less-than half-value to the Euro $), USA
Education of our children is adequate for crop-picking,
burger-flipping, drug-dealing and easily exploited public.
Hysterically funny in a very dark/sick-humor sort of way.
The lassie-fare reign of royalty that starts with let them watch TV (Paris).
The Pax-Romana reign of might that made very human entertainment right (Rome).
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
"we will eventually get degredation over time, and the quality of education will drop"
As someone who spent a year (viz. 1997) teaching community college kids what constitutes a complete sentence, this line made my day.
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
"several response are possible"
Talk. Like. Cave. Man.
Didn't Opera have something like this?
http://outcampaign.org/
You're a bunch of greedy bastards. Trying to force students to watch advertisement is a new all time low.
Microsoft has crossed the line from ordinary villainy to cartoonish supervillainy.
Property is theft.
This has got to be the gayest thing I've ever heard. Way to go Mickeysoft!
"The value to an advertiser is not, however, in delivering the advertisement to the computer. The value is realized when a human viewer consumes the advertisement and the particular message of the advertisement is conveyed to a user. The consumption of an advertisement by a human user is even more important when one option for paying for the subsidized computer is through the delivery of paid advertising. Attestation of delivery may be challenging. Simply presenting the advertisement offers little or no assurance that the ad was consumed by a human. Even verifying the presence of a user, e.g. by use of a camera, may provide assurance that someone is there, but not necessarily that he or she is paying attention to the advertisement."
In other words, we are patenting methods to FORCE EVERY CONSUMER of an ad-sponsored PC to VIEW EACH AND EVERY AD on that PC WHETHER THEY WANT TO OR NOT!
Like I said, Microsoft is an EXTORTION RACKET masquerading as a computer software company.
How ANYBODY can justify dealing with this company in any way any more is beyond me. This company makes Enron look like Greenpeace and Consumer Reports combined.
OTOH, anybody who gets a PC under such terms probably deserves to be forced to watch the ads...Morons...
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
What's (scarily) ridiculous is the patent Microsoft wants for this. Since facial recognition is already out there and advertising has been out for much, much longer than Microsoft, this really isn't anything particularly new or exciting.....
A few questions for Microsoft: How do you plan on displaying large enough ads while the computer is still usable (e.g. there is enough screen space)? How are schoolchildren supposed to do work when their computers will only function properly if the stare at ads? How can you account for the fact that kids will realize that they can point their faces at the ads and focus their eyes on what they care about? And finally, WHY?
Oops, sorry about the last question. I forgot Microsoft only cares about what the kids buy or make their parents buy...
"All you need is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." -- Mark Twain
You make a grown man cry.
Once again, Microsoft have taken someone elses idea and put their name to it.
This reminds me of Moola.com. Basically, you playing with virtual money on online games against other people and when you run out of virtual money, you WATCH AN ADVERTISEMENT, and then at the end of the Ad, they asked a question about the ad, and if you answer correctly, then you get your starting money back to play.
The only thing Microsoft have expanded on is bring this to the children in schools, and to make education their personal and forceful marketing ground.
...Don't give them ideas man!
Or, you could just vote Yes for the next school funding tax on the ballot.
The reason schools have to look to 'creative' funding sources for their programs is because they don't have enough money.
The only teeth that can eat other teeth. ;-)
It's OK Bender, there's no such thing as 2.
Children's Responses:
..Take me to your leader..
Camera detection:
1) Stick gum on camera
2) Disconnect camera
3) Steal camera
4) Camera can't see me when i'm wearing super-spy eyes!
Most common responses to "ad understanding".
System: What was the last ad you saw?
Children:
1) Your mom
2) A horse pulling twelve lepricans over a rainbow
3) What is an ad?
4)
Most common kid responses to whole system.
1) What are we learning in this class?
2) I wish that bully would stop punching me after school
3) I wish his girlfriend would stop punching me too
4) I love Coca-Cola. Oh, and McDonalds. Oh, oh, oh, and Wells Smith & Fargo Financial.
Beee. booo. beee. booo. Addveertissing.. I loovvee too lern @t sckool.
Rest assured if there is every a time that such a system is ever implemented in practice, our civilization will be so near to revolution it won't matter.
I think I'm going to file a patent for "morality cameras" for large software company executives with stupid ideas. The idea is: Every time a Microsoft exec or brainhead uses their computer, a morality camera checks to see if they are doing something morally absurd. This is done by asking certain questions:
1) Do you know what a human being is?
2) Do you know what children are?
3) What is the difference between a living cat, and a cat you killed with your bare hands?
If they don't answer correctly, the system seizes control of itself and self-destructs out of desperation.
Woooooooo....
:P) that most likely this company WILL indeed try to force this new&retarded patent on everybody's throat. Hence the fucking "yet"...
Moron... Based on the PREVIOUS BEHAVIOR and HISTORY of tis corporation it is REASONABLY SAFE to assume that there most likely BE A YET IN THE FUTURE.
So, even if some of us here may "know nothing about this particular patent" we can do a little mental exercise and correlate the past practices in this particular area of this particular corporation and say that we believe it will be a YET. Not 100% sure but a very distinct possibility...
Like all those right-wing morons that demonize everyone who opposed the war in 2003... Well, guess what! There were no WMD, no connections to All Kaida or shit even if we "knew nothing about it"...
Roll and stick your degree in your ass. You either troll here on the forums or don't know shit about analytical reasoning. We don't need two-million-per-cent sure facts to fucking extrapolate what a greedy corporation will do with that patent. We've seen it before and, based on this recurrent practice it, most likely happen again.
If you want to play "ignorant self-serving moron" and "wait for the facts", please be my guest. The rest of us use our humble limited cognitive abilities, which, by no stretch are a match for your "degree in CS and in mathematics" to predict (maybe by reading palms or coffee foam
And, anyways, shouldn't you be making "factually accurate and objective statement" on Iran or something and wait for the accurate results? Why settle for some pissy patents flamewar with slashdot geeks when you can wave the flag for far more serious and important things...
This sounds like the book "Jennifer Government" to me, almost. In it, everyone takes the last name of the company you work for. Slightly different but they're really in a very similar vein.
--Brian Gap, Inc.
...an 'educational' TV station for gradeschools which pumps out ads to a captive audience.
I wasnt saying the advertising in question here was subliminal ... what i meant was ...
;-)
...
WE're exposed to so much advertising that you get to the point that you dont pay attention to ANY of it.
Thus all its doing is eating up real estate and ruining whatever im trying to 'experience'.
SO then all that advertising that i dont pay attention to anyway BECOMES subliminal.
I'de much rather not HAVE to "see" it consiously.
Flash it past in the background and i'll drool and go buy more Mt'Dew.
If you force me to prove i saw a cold 24oz bottle of Mt'Dew im the kind of person to go buy Mello Yellow out of SPITE!!!
honestly i just wanted to state my opinion on all the advertising GARBAGE! Companies get all in an uproar when they hear we fast foreward / skip through comercials. But we still SEE them (sometimes i even stop to watch one). Why not just hide the advertising throughout / behind the program / content so i CANT skip it and really dont even notice its there other than my strong craving for Doritios
( not that i'de actually condone / agree with subliminal advertising either lol ) Signs, Signs, everywhere a sign
That's a really clever design they've come up with. I can see why they'd want to patent it. No idea if anyone will ever make use of the technology---I wouldn't. But I can see the appeal of patenting something that novel.
Take care,
Mark
There is a solution...