Huge Linux Desktop Deals Get HP Thinking

An anonymous reader notes an article in CRN about HP recently cutting deals for multi-thousands of Linux desktops. With all the talk about whether Dell will offer pre-installed desktop Linux any time soon, in the end HP may beat them to that particular punch.

Comments

well

[mastershake_phd]

Well its about time someone did it on a large scale. There is a market, so whats holding it back? Dare I say back room Microsoft deals?

Re:well

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to work for AST computers during their decline. I remember when AST selected a Lotus suite for bundling on all computers, as opposed to Microsoft works. After that deal if AST wanted to bundle a full version of office, they had to pay full retail to do it. There were never backup room deals, but there were ramifications to choices.

Re:well

[Anonymous Coward]

Dell has offered Linux for a long time. You could get Red Hat installed from Red Hat 6.2.

It's also not difficult to find a n series system (one that does not come with Windows preinstalled).

http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/all iances/en/linux?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs&~ck=anavml

Re:well

[__aahlyu4518]

On a large scale it isn't a problem. More companies will take on that challenge.
It is time for a large company to do it on a small scale -> individuals who want to buy a laptop/desktop with linux on it.

Re:well

[rucs_hack]

What held it back was likely the use of the 'we will install linux' as a bargaining chip to secure lower prices from microsoft.

I see the recent moves of microsoft into the linux world as an admission of the inevitable rise of Linux to status of serious windows competitor on the corporate desktop. No doubt they hope to embrace and extend, to take it over. I don't see this working, but they have no other strategy.

Re:well

[SQLz]

Err HP has been doing this for years. My company has over 1000 desktops, close to 10,000 machines, 99% of which run CentoOS with KDE. Many of the newer ones are HP since Dell refused to sell AMD and offer Linux support, where as HP has been happy to do this. I guess that is why they surpassed dell not to long ago.

As Vista/Office 2K7 go down

[dilute]

Is there a link here between waning interest in Vista and Office 2K7 and rising interest in desktop Linux? For all the hassle of "upgrading" the MS products, it may be easier in many respects to take the plunge and switch to another OS and office suite.

Re:As Vista/Office 2K7 go down

[Nerdfest]

I recall seeing some articles about various governments and large organizations having problems with Microsoft's new 'controls' imposed by licensing agreements, and the possibility that you may be locked out of your hardware. To many, it's unacceptable, and Linux is a nice alternative, especially given the price and the reliability.

Re:As Vista/Office 2K7 go down

[Gr8Apes]

That's already been discussed as a reason for Apple's future to look brighter. After all - new interface, new paradigms, and lack of backwards compatibilities and lack of software all make for a nice big opening for other systems to enter the market. Add to that an entirely new administrative/maintenance learning curve, and going with something a little more stable, like, say, Apple or Linux, all of a sudden becomes quite enticing, especially when you include the lack of CALs (Client Access Licenses).

Vista may be the hay bale that broke the camel's back.

Re:As Vista/Office 2K7 go down

[endianx]

I suspect so. The #1 reason I have always heard for not switching to Linux/OpenOffice was that it was too costly to retrain everybody. Well if you have to retrain everybody anyway, and also have to pay thousands for the new products, they probably figure maybe now is the time to look into switching.

Re:As Vista/Office 2K7 go down

[pizpot]

Add to this, everyone involved in the contract, has home computers bogged down with virii and now sees MS as flakey.

Re:As Vista/Office 2K7 go down

[FridayBob]

I've been predicting that M$ was going to shoot itself in the foot with Vista for a while now, but last year not many were willing to agree with me. Now, it looks like it's happening, but the question is, are we ready?

We're an army of Linux nerds, but I fear there will not be enough of us at first to satisfy any sudden growth in demand for support as Linux crosses the threshold of critical mass. At first, I think this lack of support will limit the rate of growth, but not for long. It's going to take several years at least for all those Windows admins to become useful, but modern distros like Ubuntu and pre-installed systems from major vendors will make things easier for users without any direct support, thus allowing for more growth sooner that would otherwise be possible. Still, this kind of growth will have its limits as well. Windows will only really start to disappear when there's enough professional support for Linux.

Apple's OSX systems are nice, but I don't think they'll be taking over from M$. Yes, it is *nix, but they're just too expensive; you're limited to using Apple's hardware and you still have licenses to worry about. It's not going to happen. I guess this is the price they pay for always having avoided going head-to-head with M$ for the desktop.

In the mean time, I'm going to have to get certified for Linux in a hurry. At least, that's if I want to get a piece of all that juicy Linux corporate consulting work on the horizon. I've been doing Linux almost exclusively for about six years now, but LPIC-1 isn't as easy as I thought it would be -- you have to remember loads of details for the exams. I'm almost there, though. Then there's LPIC-2, LPIC-3, maybe RHCE too. Anybody know of any other interesting Linux (or related) certifications?

Re:As Vista/Office 2K7 go down

[flyingfsck]

Hmm, the problem is not user acceptance or training. The problem is IT personnel acceptance and training. All a typical corporate user need in terms of training is a one page cheat sheet. However, the IT guys need to figure out how to make Linux work with MS Active Directory, learn how to configure Samba, figure out how to make Gnome Meeting work cross country and futz around till they have Linux going with some wacky Citrix applications and so on. Each problem is not insurmountable in its own right, but lumped together it becomes a huge head-ache.

Re:As Vista/Office 2K7 go down

[pallmall1]

Add to this, everyone involved in the contract, has home computers bogged down with virii and now sees MS as flakey.

Not to mention that that virii can send you to jail.

That's a right fact: using microsoft software can land you in prison.

Re:As Vista/Office 2K7 go down

[Anonymous Coward]

ou mean, could it be The Day ?

Re:As Vista/Office 2K7 go down

[Anonymous Coward]

Vista is to Linux on the desktop, as the Iraq war is to Al-Quaeda recruiting.

Re:As Vista/Office 2K7 go down

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not a troll, but Linux can do all of those things right now. SUSE includes a tool to join their desktops to Active Directory, Samba is rather painless to set up, and just download the Citrix rpm in order to install Citrix...I have no idea about GnomeMeeting, however.

Re:As Vista/Office 2K7 go down

[Gr8Apes]

You're not alone. There's some of us going all the way back to 93/94 that said that Cairo->Longhorn->Vista was going to kill MS should they ever actually try to release it. That's right, look at Cairo's claimed functionality, and you'll see Longhorn, of which Vista is the reality.

MS overshot/overstated their capabilities, and anyone with even half a brain knew it.

Re:As Vista/Office 2K7 go down

[RetroGeek]

Do not forget Chicago, which turned into Windows 95.

MS was going to make a new OS from the ground up, completely object oriented, not DOS etc. Something like OS/2 but entirely from MS.

The first alpha releases were that, but then time lines stretched, marketing took over, and MS put a GUI layer over DOS, rolled out Windows 95, and said "Look at us, aren't we great!".

Re:As Vista/Office 2K7 go down

[Locutus]

Huge head-ache? Just tell them to pretend it's just another MS Windows worm they have to clean the entire network of. Not sure about you but there was one not to long ago which shut down some of our city offices and it took the IT people working overnight to get things somewhat working again. It took another 2 days to get to all the non-critical systems since, IIRC, many required disk re-imaging.

So, tell them it's like another one of THOSE Windows issues but this time, it'll be the last time.

LoB

Re:As Vista/Office 2K7 go down

[Anonymous Coward]

virii

Viruses.

Re:As Vista/Office 2K7 go down

[Gr8Apes]

I've never heard of the alpha releases of Chicago. I had heard of some "demos" that were shown, but never that anyone actually got their hot little hands on Chicago code.

You might like this as well: Chicago, Cairo, Longhorn, Vista, it's kind of interesting :)

Re:As Vista/Office 2K7 go down

[killjoe]

It's not that big of a headache. Anytime you run into a problem of not being able to ineract with a MS product you ditch the MS product. Eventually you will have systems that work well with everybody including your partners and vendors and you will wonder why you chose to let some vendor make IT decisions for you.

Re:As Vista/Office 2K7 go down

[DeadChobi]

She's liable because she left the classroom. Had she maintained better control of her students and moved them away from the computer while calling the main office from her in-class phone she wouldn't have had such liability. I don't know how her room was set up, but if she had simply turned the monitor away from them it would have worked to absolve her of some responsibility. She could have threatened the first person to try to look at the screen while she was blocking it with a lengthy trip to the main office. She didn't. If the monitor broke while she was moving it at least she was trying to protect her charges.

The first rule of classroom management is that you NEVER leave your students unsupervised, not even in an emergency. You are their legal guardian while they're in your classroom.

Re:As Vista/Office 2K7 go down

[mackyrae]

The IT guys probably know how Samba works just fine and would be happy to be rid of it. Remember, the majority of servers are running a *nix. They probably have Linux servers running Samba to talk to the Windows desktops. By the way, Gnome Meeting is gone, replaced/renamed Ekiga Softphone. Ekiga uses SIP, though, so working cross country is no big deal. It'll interface with MS Live Messenger. I'd much rather admin Linux boxes. I've spent 10 years babysitting every crash and break on Windows. I've been using Linux for less than a year. Yeah, there was a learning curve, but I'm much better with Linux than with Windows now. When I have to do Windows boxes and I find out "you can't move the hard drive and just shove it in another? it won't boot? what?! that's stupid!" because someone's encrypted hard drive is inaccessible unless you find the exact same computer to put it in (can only get to files if you boot from it cuz of the encryption), I'm glad I can pop a Linux hard drive into any computer and have it boot. There are quite a few things I've done in Linux just assuming it'd work because it seemed logical, and it did, but when I suggest them on Windows, I get stared at and told it's "impossible." Windows makes you do everything the hard way when it comes to repairs.

Re:As Vista/Office 2K7 go down

[Anonymous Coward]

"IT guys need to figure out how to "

What is with all this panic about what IT guys need to learn? IT guys figure out technology-related tough problems every day; that's why they're IT guys!

No different if you admin Windows, Linux, Mac OS X, BSD, or Plan 9 from Bell Labs, or your own home-brew system coded by a hyperactive script kiddie at 2AM in assembly. Working in the computer field = constant learning and problem-solving.

What, when AJAX became the screaming hot rage last year, I didn't see 20,000 /. posters crying "It will never work! IT will have to learn something new!" What the hell? IT has to cram a new thousand-page manual every time MS Office releases a patch. What's the difference?

This is the number one reason why we're happy to see Linux being rolled out to consumers in a big way; we can finally get rid of the stupid black magic voodoo superstitions about it and let the public see that it's really just another operating system. The same laws of normal computer physics still apply to it. It doesn't run on pixie dust from farie farts, folks! It's coded in regular ANSI C.

Re:As Vista/Office 2K7 go down

[damista]

I'm not so sure if you are right. Looking at all the cases I am aware of, it is the opposite. It's usually the servers that are ported to Linux but everybody is scared to slap a Linux desktop onto somebody's desk. After years of "force feeding", people are used to Windows and Office. If you take that away from them, they get cranky. It doesn't matter that Vista looks kompletely different to XP or 2K. They will get used to it. But if the machine doesn't say anything about "Windows" when it boots, people wil refuse to use it, complain about things not being where they want them to be and whatnot. Same goes for Office. With some exceptions, most people could use OOo without a problem but since it doesn't display "Microsoft Office" during startup, they will whinge and whine that they can't find this or that. If MS changes the Menu layout, it doesn't matter. People will get used to it simply because it is MS Office. It doens't mean OOo is bad but people know MS Office and they are willing to learn to use a new version. If they have to use OOo, they are not willing to learn because it is a different product and they're afraid to "learn something new". I've seen it at my workplace. I don't buy MS Office unless it ships with a new PC. If we are getting machines without MS Office, I install OOo on the box and the first thing people do is complain that there's no Office on it. When I show them OOo, they all get this weird look on their face and over the next few weeks, I get hassled that this wasn't as it is supposed to be and that isn't and so on. Only after they realise that I will not buy MS Office no matter how much they whinge, they start to warm up to OOo a bit and after a few weeks, they aren't even aware anymore that they use a different office package. People are scared of change and it is that fear we need to take away. If we can achieve that, they door is open for Linux Desktops.

It's about time

[phoenixwade]

That was the puzzle piece the Linux commnity needed.

I'm wondering if Hp figured out how to preinstall AOL, and all the rest of that junk for advertising like the Windows machines come pre-installed with to supplement income. It occurred to me that windows machines might actually be cheaper, not because of the windows deals with MS, but because of the paid to be installed junk. If so, that may not be nearly as nice as it first appears.

Re:It's about time

[antirelic]

This wont matter unless somehow a major player in the Linux market does something that makes LINUX more appealing to the masses. Open Office is a good start, but that isnt enough in itself. Unless several major software companies release a "linux native" version of thier software, I fear that Vista will just take "longer" to become the "desktop".

Re:It's about time

[Nerdfest]

If the market exists, the crapware will follow.

Re:It's about time

[alphamugwump]

They wouldn't install crapware on corporate machines; it wouldn't make any sense. Also, I don't know about you guys, but I like to wipe my systems every so often, even my linux systems. It cleans out all the random crap and hacked packages I installed at one point in time, and gets me back to the default. Wiping the system when you get it is pretty damn basic, and there isn't really any good reason to bitch about it. Unless you don't have a real windows CD, in which case you should have bought your computer from someone else. Fuck those configuration CDs, you should demand a real windows CD and real driver CDs. That way, I can control what goes on the machines.

Re:It's about time

[davecarlotub]

Companies, such as the one I work for, image their machines with a corporate image built by a systems integration team. Things such as "AOL preinstalled" are no worry. The first thing we do with new HP workstations is to reimage them. The majority of HP customers, I would assume, aren't concerned with what comes preinstalled.

Re:It's about time

[Calinous]

The only reason to buy a corporate computer with Linux preinstalled is being sure that Linux runs on that configuration without problems. Big vendors will change small bits in the systems they sell without bothering to ask permission from the customers (new BIOS revisions, new mainboard revisions, and so on). Starting from a Windows-only workstation, you might be surprised to find out that the gigabit network was changed, from something that is Linux compatible, to something that isn't

Re:It's about time

[geekoid]

HP knows most people do that, that's not the question.

The question is "How much do they get paid by AOL to put the AOL icon on the desktop?"

Getting revenue from AOL may allow them to lower the PC price. If they can't get that revenue for a Linux box, logically that would increase the cost of that box.

Re:It's about time

[Corwn of Amber]

Real windows CD? What for? You have a license to use some Windows version, just download 'n burn that same version. "What pirated software? I do have a license."

Re:It's about time

[davecarlotub]

If putting the AOL icon on the desktop that gets wiped out as soon as it enters the building subsidizes our purchase of new HP machines, then thank you AOL :)

Re:It's about time

[LuisAnaya]

I do not think that's the case. I think that Linux will be offered to corporate users while home users will only be offered Windows with AOL/Compuserve/Norton Icons on it. Corporate desktops are usually sold at a larger margin, even if you include "economies of scale" to keep the computers price competitive. Will see. I'll believe in this change when I see the choice between Linux and Windows being offered at work.

Re:It's about time

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh, AOL and other junk?
You must be talking about consumer models.
HP business PC's does not have such things.

Re:It's about time

[Chandon Seldon]

Almost all types of mainstream software has a Free Software version for GNU/Linux with more than enough functionality for mainstream users.

Sure, a profesional graphics artist with 5 years of Photoshop experience will prefer it to The Gimp or Gimpshop, but 99.8% of people aren't graphics professionals with years of photoshop experience - and for normal people Gimp is great. The same is true with OpenOffice, Evolution, etc.

Yes, it's true that random-CAD-software X doesn't have a Linux port. That's not mainstream, not even 0.2% of people use it - those people an easily keep a Win2k workstation or whatever.

The only exception I can think of is tax preparation software, and there are decent pay-for-use Web apps that do that. The other consideration is games, but most people don't cough up the money for a decent gaming computer anyway.

Basically, the applications barrier to entry that Linux has been facing for years has been largely overcome by the inertia of Free Software development. Yes, there's a one cycle retaining penalty to move to Linux - but that's *exactly* the same penalty as to move to Vista, and it won't necessarily happen again as soon for Linux as it will for Vista + 1.

Re:It's about time

[dexomsrc]

With all of this talk surrounding the prospect of a boom in GNU/Linux desktop marketshare, is seems that many are forgetting that the desktop market in and of itself has evolved into a varied and diverse landscape depending on the intents of the user of the machine. It's not as simple as cheering on the continued success of GNU/Linux adoption in the embedded and server markets but anxiously awaiting the ever-elusive "Year of the Linux Desktop."

There's a notable difference between placing a supported bulk corporate purchase of a specific distribution of GNU/Linux on all desktops in a given company accompanied by a trained IT staff and trying to market a Lindows machine at Walmart to Joe Sixpack. Both are rightly desktop computers, but the scenarios surrounding their use are so different that the relative success of either instance is not comparable: they are truly different markets.

To claim the desktop market as the final frontier for GNU/Linux adoption is all fine and good, but do take into account the variety of sub-markets that comprise the whole. It's much less likely that Jill Sixpack is going to be rushing to buy Dell or HP machines preinstalled with GNU/Linux to use as his sole home PC. As others have pointed out, the lack of preinstalled proprietary crapware could very well make this option more expensive in addition to the difficulties that would be experienced with practically all boxed software, including games, not being native to her operating system (what does that even mean to her?).

No, much more likely to be widely successful in the shorter term is massive amounts of corporate installations, situations whereupon the both the purchasing company and HP would see a real benefit not having to pay the Microsoft tax. There would be no crapware in these instances anyway. Such bulk purchases are a very large incentive for OEMs to choose hardware options with drivers in the Linux kernel, directly putting pressure on hardware companies to release driver source code, or at least hardware documentation. It's all a complex and intricate chain of successive events, but it's obvious where it's leading.

It's been an incredibly arduous and taxing war to get adoption and quality of the most viable free software operating system this far. But momentum is only gaining, inertia in full force, and the more entrenched GNU/Linux becomes, the easier it will be to keep the acceleration of its evolution increasing all the time.

Laptop committment as well

[landoltjp]

It would be nice if HP also comitted to getting Linux on their laptops as well. I noticed that there is no trouble getting Windows running on my laptop, but It's always hit and miss whether or not Linux runs.

Of the three laptops I've had over the years, It's only the latest one (an HP dv6000 from Canadia) that's not playing nice.

While this is indeed trolling, I wonder if Microsoft encourages HP (et al) to make it difficult to get Linux running on their machines (ie wierdness for screen / network / etc firmware or modules).

Thank goodness for sites like http://www.linux-on-laptops.com/ (even though there's nothing for the dv6000 yet)

Re:Laptop committment as well

[dogsbestfriend]

I've got fc6.x86_64 running on my dv6110 for a while. the latest fc6 kernels seem to be very stable, and i don't have to use the 'noapic' kernel option anymore. I couldn't install/ update without this of course.
nvidia proprietory drivers and ndiswrapper for wlan gives me everything i need now.

Re:Laptop committment as well

[east coast]

I have Ubuntu running as a VM on my dv9035 with no problems. I do not have Linux running native on any laptop so I can't speak for it but I'm guessing that my VM install would handle just as if it were installed directly on the laptop. Maybe others can verify this or set me straight on the difference.

Re:Laptop committment as well

[swillden]

I have Ubuntu running as a VM on my dv9035 with no problems. I do not have Linux running native on any laptop so I can't speak for it but I'm guessing that my VM install would handle just as if it were installed directly on the laptop. Maybe others can verify this or set me straight on the difference.

Nope, it doesn't run the same in a VM as it does running natively on the machine. For much of the hardware -- basically anything except USB -- the "hypervisor" (VMWare or what have you) provides fake devices to the virtual machine. Your Ubuntu install sees, for example, a VMware-brand network card (mine sees a "VMware accelrated AMD PCNet Adapter"), a VMWare-brand graphics card ("VMware SVGA II"), etc., and talks to those "devices". The hypervisor intercepts the requests from the guest OS, translates them and hands them off to the host OS, which uses its drivers to talk to the real network and video card.

With VMWare, at least, USB devices are potentially handled differently, and direct access to them can be handed to the guest machine, via a faked USB controller. I say potentially, because if the USB device is a USB implementation of another kind of device, like a network card or a serial port, you can also allow the host machine to control the device, and then export the functionality to the guest as just another network or serial interface.

Re:Laptop committment as well

[the_masked_mallard]

I have a dv6137, a core 2 duo machine. popped in the dapper drake live cd and worked like a charm. no screen issues coz of the widescreen, wifi works fine. even the quickplay buttons for volume were working. perhaps its just some bad luck in your case (or good luck in mine).

Re:Laptop committment as well

[pizpot]

I just did a compaq presario laptop dual boot (amdxp3000) and it went fine except for the broadcom wireless, which probably would work if I had more time with it. wrappers didn't do anything for me.

Re:Laptop committment as well

[necrogram]

Thats why I do business grade laptops. HP certifes my nc8430 for suse. It might not be as pretty as the DV6000 series, but they are tough 'tops.

Re:Laptop committment as well

[vladilinsky]

I have the same laptop (i think) dv6110ca and the only distribution that i could get to run was Slackware 11. with an upgraded kernel 2.6.20, and the newest bios from HP's site. everything but the winmodem works now. if you need any help getting it to work you can email me at vlad_il_insky at gmail.com (without the _ _ )

Re:Laptop committment as well

[thePsychologist]

By some strange fate, the laptop I bought two years ago (Toshiba Satellite A70) happened to take Ubuntu Linux right away without any problems. Almost every installation of Ubuntu I did later had more problems. One installation had a problem with intel integrated graphics, which after a few hours of searching I fixed by changing some memory setting in the BIOS.

Another computer had problems because of the wireless card. My laptop worked so well because it had an Atheros card (example of open source driver).

Re:Laptop committment as well

[drinkypoo]

I have linux running on a HP/Compaq nw9440. I'm running Ubuntu Edgy. All the important hardware works (the fingerprint scanner is not yet supported) although I haven't tried WPA (but the wifi works.) This is all pretty easy because it's centrino and nvidia. I'm running beryl with AIGLX using the very latest nvidia drivers. Oh, and to be honest, I'm not sure if bluetooth works or not. Besides WPA (and to be honest wifi in general) I think bluetooth is the worst-supported feature of modern computers under Linux.

Re:Laptop committment as well

[the_womble]

My first attempt at installing Linux (kubuntu) on a laptop is not going that well so far.

A friend wanted to try Linux on her Compaq Presario C300. I have not figured out how to get wireless networking working yet, and the sound is very soft. The former can probably be sorted out, the latter is a known problem but apparently not yet fixed.

Doug Small From HP

[Anonymous Coward]

Would be awesome if Doug Small, worldwide director of open source and Linux marketing at HP, was interviewed on one of those AskSlashdot stories where we could get feedback as to why is working and what are the reasons he is not getting millions of corporate and government Linux desktop on HP hardware sales yet.

Regardless, good news.

Re:Doug Small From HP

[slashbob22]

Doug, is that you?

How does next tuesday work for the interview?

This really isn't news per se....

[8127972]

Compaq had LINUX support as early as 1999. In fact Compaq had an alliance with Red Hat:

http://www.chguy.net/news/jun99/press_compaq.html

And some models of their servers came pre-installed with Red Hat:

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT= 104&STORY=/www/story/11-21-2000/0001371236&EDATE=

That gave them the ability to put LINUX into the enterprise as it was easier to deploy than a "roll your own solution."

Given that Compaq was bought by HP, would it not be logical to assume that HP would simply keep doing this (although maybe they wouldn't broadcast it as loudly as Compaq did)?

Re:This really isn't news per se....

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you know an organization with ProLiants on users' desks?

Re:This really isn't news per se....

[RMH101]

Could you speak up a bit? I'm a little deaf with all the fan noise from this DL380 on my desk.

Re:This really isn't news per se....

[Anonymous Coward]

http://h71028.www7.hp.com/enterprise/cache/309906- 0-0-0-121.html

HP has been offering Linux on servers for quite some time.

Re:I've been wondering...

[Rob the Bold]

Hey Slashdot, why are PC users such ugly dweebs in comparison to Mac users? Is it because nobody has the time or patience to put up with Windows/Linux except for friendless, sexless nerds like you?

Dammit! I'm too busy re-installing windows to get the damn hair plugs and laser-derm you insensitive clod!

Hah

[matr0x_x]

I wonder how bad Microsoft is punishing Dell for lack of exclusitivity.

Re:Hah

[Technician]

I wonder how bad Microsoft is punishing Dell for lack of exclusitivity.

I would hazzard a guess at somewhere around a few hundred thousand units the savings from not buying MS licenses is equal to the offset in price from the loss of the exclusitivity discount. They may have noticed demand was great enough to get over the barrier to entry.

It must be a bear to MS when HP crossed the line and no longer bought the $60 copies but bought the $200 copies instead. To do that it would be obvious to MS that HP is planning on selling a lot of something else. Ouch!

Too bad in the 2 HP machines I've owned, I've had to use the warranty at least once on each machine. I hope that is not an indication of their overall reliability. I will admit warranty service was excellent, but I would rather have a machine not needing warranty repairs.
To be fair, one computer's problems could be blaimed on their supplier. I had a failure twice of the IBM deskstar drive in the same machine.

Figures

[jginspace]

HP also figured in the Who Wrote, and Paid For, 2.6.20 research discussed here last week as a significant contributor to Linux. You'd guess they'd be planning on getting their money's worth.

Re:Figures

[TheRaven64]

I didn't read the breakdown in detail, but I understand that most of the work HP did on Linux related to the IA64 port. Since they are about the only people still selling IA64 hardware, and Linux is about the only OS that runs on IA64, this means it's pretty-much up to them to keep the work going. I don't think they are planning on selling IA64 desktops or laptops though...

Re:Figures

[drinkypoo]

The next revision of IA64 is supposed to make it competitive. I'll believe it when I see it. But HP is just hedging their bets. If the new improved itanic hits another iceberg, at least it's intel's fault and they can ditch it and tell intel where to stick it without looking like assholes. If it actually manages to stay afloat, then they can make some big money because they'll be at the head of that particular table. It'll be interesting to see how badly it tanks :D

Re:Figures

[Rudolf]

and Linux is about the only OS that runs on IA64

Right. Except for BSD, HPUX, VMS, and Windows. Other than that, Linux is "about" the only OS for IA64.

Re:Figures

[TheRaven64]

BSD

NetBSD doesn't run on IA64 in any meaningful way; the port is a 'work in progress,' meaning no one cares enough to finish it.

OpenBSD doesn't run on IA64 at all.

FreeBSD does, which surprised me since they've only just started having decent PowerPC support.

HPUX HP-UX. Right. The operating system that HP sat on, trying to decide whether they wanted to push it or Tru64, and pretty much missed the boat with. It's so infrequently mentioned even among big UNIX users that it's pretty easy to forget it exists.

VMS Ah, OpenVMS. An incredible platform. With only VAX, Alpha and Itanium as supported platforms, it re-defines `niche,' but probably still worth mentioning. OpenVMS is probably the only thing keeping Itanium afloat these days; it's about the only choice for new hardware when it comes to supported systems (the Alpha hasn't been developed for almost a decade, and so it's just starting to lose the performance crown), but if HP ported OpenVMS to... well, anything else, really, I suspect the market would dry up overnight. OpenVMS, however, isn't in even remotely the same market as Linux.

and Windows Really? I thought Microsoft decided to cut their losses on Itanium support.

as a former employee

[Anonymous Coward]

as a former employee I can say Linux is quite big within HP itself... they have a large business unit (including R&D for drivers and several F/OSS applications) purely for Linux. They also have great management tools for providing applications and patches/updates to all desktop users, including Linux desktops. This is probably tested well enough to consider rolling it out to customers now. Within HP you can choose whether you want to run Linux or Windows, although they will only support certain distros (forgot which ones, I suspect they were SuSE and Fedora, although there is strong (user)support for Debian as well) with their managment tool.

Re:as a former employee

[geekoid]

Then why thenhell don't they advertise it for christ sake.

Re:as a former employee

[cyberkahn]

"they have a large business unit (including R&D for drivers and several F/OSS applications) purely for Linux."
Where, so I can move there? :-)

Re:as a former employee

[MaximvsG]

I have two friends that work at HP and yes, Linux is widely used there. Their whole shop uses Linux for desktops. I think Linux makes perfect sense in the corporate world for a desktop OS. Mostly from a computer security standpoint. And secondly cost.

Re:as a former employee

[jkrise]

Bruce, is that you? You should know better about HP support for Debian, eh!

Re:as a former employee

[Anonymous Coward]

As a current employee, I would like to point out that a few years back HP even opened up the tool that they use to install and manage patches/updates those linux desktops...

http://linuxcoe.sourceforge.net/

Posting as AC as it's been so long since I posted anything here that I can't remember my login.

Re:as a former employee

[masinick]

I worked at Digital Equipment Corp. myself, and again as a consultant for Compaq prior to the HP merger-acquisition. I also attended a Debian conference where SEVERAL HP employees were openly favorable to Debian Linux and who were actively promoting the use of Debian GNU/Linux software within HP. From my Digital days, I know that Jon Hall, when he was still at DEC, actually brought in Linus Torvalds (I met Linus personally during one of those meetings, and Jon also saw to it that Linux had his own AlphaStation to port Linux to Alpha. So there is a long history with BOTH HP and DEC in using and promoting Linux internally.

Externally, it has always been a bit below the radar, even though HP does in excess of $2B a year in hardware, software, services, and other line items. Maybe for a $100B+ company that is not very big, but with a little more effort, they could scale that five or tenfold. Maybe it will happen if they have as much success on the desk as they have had with servers. The sheer numbers of systems sold could far exceed the server numbers, though admittedly the profit per unit would be smaller. But if you can get into the millions of deployed units, critical mass can be reached, then it is all profit after that.

I hope HP goes after it big time, Dell and IBM see their success, and follow suit. The industry will then follow and at last we will have a solid Linux desktop presence. Hope it actually happens that way!

Government doesn't like closed formats

[spineboy]

More and more governments don't like proprietary or closed formats for documents. HP always seems to be able to get big government computer contracts, so this seems like an easy route to follow.

Re:Government doesn't like closed formats

[Sobrique]

People are finally starting to realise that 'Word Document' format isn't nearly as universal a format as they first thought, due to closed standards, where PDF, XML, HTML are all document formats that _are_.

Re:Government doesn't like closed formats

[mbrod]

HP always seems to be able to get big government computer contracts, Those big government contracts are why OpenVMS is still alive at HP. Once they aquired the system whilst aquiring Compaq they saw just how many contracts the government had for this.

HP has a greater potential to affect the Linux pendulum than even Dell. HP has the hardware and software guys to back it up. They have a lot of hard core systems guys with their different offerings that already help a lot with Linux compatibility and can do a lot more quite easily if the need is there.

Re:Government doesn't like closed formats

[networkBoy]

HP has a greater potential to affect the Linux pendulum than even Dell. HP has the hardware and software guys to back it up. They have a lot of hard core systems guys with their different offerings that already help a lot with Linux compatibility and can do a lot more quite easily if the need is there. And they have HP-UX, which (backing you up here) means their software guys are already pros... but they have HP-UX, their own *nix that they may not want to share with a non-license paying linux? (Here's to hoping that won't happen).
-nB

Re:Government doesn't like closed formats

[drinkypoo]

And they have HP-UX, which (backing you up here) means their software guys are already pros... but they have HP-UX, their own *nix that they may not want to share with a non-license paying linux? (Here's to hoping that won't happen).

The thing about HP-UX is that IME the vast majority of people who actually have experience with it call it HP-SUX. Having worked with it just a tad, I can already see why. AIX seems to have more or less crawled into the modern age and there are compelling reasons to use it; IBM makes the most powerful commodity hardware around, for one. (Check out the Top 500 if you don't believe me.) But they also support Linux! There's no particular reason for HP not to.

Over time I think you can expect to see Linux more or less kill all other Unixes, relegating them either to the trash bin or to niche markets. It might be a pretty long time, but there's no reason for it not to happen. Linux has the potential to become anything, whereas the various commercial flavors of Unix are encumbered by their licenses.

If IBM can figure out that selling Linux is a good idea, then I have some faith that HP can come to the same conclusion.

Re:Government doesn't like closed formats

[AJWM]

The HP hardware side is happy to put Linux on any hardware they sell. Even the Integrity servers (based on the Itanium2 chip and which are the "standard" HP-UX platform these days) are available with Linux. The Pooliant series (x86) of course won't run HP-UX at all, the choice there is Linux or Windows.

There are plenty of Linux pros at HP, it's well supported.

Re:Government doesn't like closed formats

[jZnat]

You can still make an obfuscated, patent-encumbered format with XML. Just look at OOXML!

Re:Government doesn't like closed formats

[51mon]

the vast majority of people who actually have experience with it call it HP-SUX

I haven't used HP-UX for a while, but it was a very solid Unix version. I think the HP-SUX label is just from people who lack either skill, or imagination, or both.

It was noticeable that the GNU file utils were way ahead of HP-UX (and every other proprietary Unix), but the market of most interest was enterprise server, and the reliability of HP-UX in such a role was impressive.

The killer for me, was when HP started migrating its own internal systems to Microsoft Windows NT4. Where as SUN had Solaris everywhere in their UK offices, from the receptionists desktop, to their servers. I know SUN must have had some MS Windows boxes somewhere for testing, but you could wander office to office without seeing anything but Solaris.

play it again sam?

[Anonymous Coward]

it appears they've been down the linux road before without much success. Linux growth cannot be ignored and major oem's are taking notice to linux sales from smaller oem's offering linux. I'd like them to offer debian on the desktop in addition to redhat and suse.

Re:play it again sam?

[gangien]

i dunno if your 'sam' tittle was a joke, but sam is a HP-UX's admin utility. You can use it via command line or X interface even :P. We had to tell people to use it to switch their max threads because it's like 64 or something, by default, which was not quite enough.

Re:play it again sam?

[milatchi]

Don't forget they own OpenVMS also. HP apparently enjoys stockpiling old industrial strength Operating Systems.

Bios Settings

[mdsolar]

For me, the trick for getting FC6 going on a pavillion was to toggle the plug and play bios setting http://forum.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php? t=139555&highlight=a1612n and after that things went pretty smoothly. A have not heard back on my question about why power saving for the screen makes the mouse disappear. But, for the most part linux does well on this machine.
--
Run your computer on solar power: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-users -selling-solar.html

Re:Bios Settings

[samwichse]

It's a bug with nVidia video cards and Fedora.

In: /etc/X11/xorg.conf

Add the line:

Option "HWCursor" "off"

To the "Device" section. Fixed!

Re:Bios Settings

[mdsolar]

Thanks, that worked. Do you know why the mouse leaves tracks in gimp?

Re:Bios Settings

[samwichse]

Are you using KDE? If so, turn off that stupid busy cursor in kcontrol. I find that it leaves tracks of itself all over any "busy" window.

Re:Bios Settings

[mdsolar]

I'm using Gnome. In gimp I'm getting single pixel tracks, not continuous. It's just on the screen, not in the file.

Re:Bios Settings

[samwichse]

If you're using the nvidia driver (not nv), run nvidia-settings and disable the mouse shadow. If you aren't, install the nvidia driver.

Re:Bios Settings

[mdsolar]

I used to do this but I had redo it each time there was a kernel update and that was with RHE. With fedora the kernel seems to change every week or so. Thanks again for the tip about the HWCursor. Now I can power-save the monitor instead of using the button all the time.

HP's got the clout

[yog]

HP's stock is up--take a look at their chart (HPQ). They have a market capitalization of $109 billion, they have surpassed Dell as a supplier of desktops, and they have new stable management (post-Fiorella) in place.

It takes clout to stand up to Microsoft. Smaller companies have little choice but to toe the Microsoft line and act as Windows pimps for their Redmond masters, but the huge players--IBM, HP, and Dell (if Dell had any backbone) can push back a bit, even though they still have to continue to sit at Microsoft's table.

Microsoft stumbled with Vista; they have insisted on replacing XP on all new machines. I couldn't even buy a Dell laptop with XP a couple of weeks ago--have some specialized software that still doesn't run on Vista--had to find one from HP. Vista is late and has problems and Linux is looking better and better.

In the end, it is a combination of market demand, linux readiness, and corporate clout that will break the Microsoft hold on the PC market.

Re:HP's got the clout

[Anonymous Coward]

HP's stock is up--take a look at their chart (HPQ). They have a market capitalization of $109 billion, they have surpassed Dell as a supplier of desktops, and they have new stable management (post-Fiorella) in place.

What about Apple? How come I don't see anyone insisting that Apple offer their computers sans OS X and pre-loaded with Linux?

Microsoft stumbled with Vista; they have insisted on replacing XP on all new machines. I couldn't even buy a Dell laptop with XP a couple of weeks ago--have some specialized software that still doesn't run on Vista--had to find one from HP.

How is your ignorance a failing of Microsoft? I am looking at Dells laptops right now. I can get the Lattitude and Precision laptops pre-loaded with either Vista or XP. I can also select "Open Source" to get a Lattitude without Windows what-so-ever. Why is everyone whining...what you want is clearly available.

Re:HP's got the clout

[pizpot]

I couldn't even buy a Dell laptop with XP a couple of weeks ago

That is insane. What if you are running a cad program and support only covers certain OS'es? I can just see the aerospace industry grinding to a halt over vista. Yeah right.

(LOL Sir Bill. Did you forget backwards compatability got you where you are? Remeber what sunk NetScape? A re-write.)

Re:HP's got the clout

[NSIM]

Microsoft stumbled with Vista; they have insisted on replacing XP on all new machines. I couldn't even buy a Dell laptop with XP a couple of weeks ago--have some specialized software that still doesn't run on Vista--had to find one from HP. Vista is late and has problems and Linux is looking better and better.

You can't have tried very hard to get DELL laptops with Xp rather than Vista, there are pretty prominent links all over the laptop section of their website and you can select XP as the installed OS rather than Vista without any difficulty at all. Large vendors like DELL or HPQ would never accept a mandate from MS to stop offereing XP when Vista launched because they know that corporates will not be ready for largescale Vista rollouts for quite some time. This is nothing new, you could get W2K on systems for a long time after XP came out.

Re:HP's got the clout

[Anonymous Coward]

I couldn't even buy a Dell laptop with XP a couple of weeks ago--have some specialized software that still doesn't run on Vista--had to find one from HP

Well you could always build your own XP PC. Key word Laptop

Re:HP's got the clout

[yog]

I was in the "Home" section of Dell.com. No XP was offered there, only Vista. I called Dell's sales line and was given the same story--no XP available on any laptops.

However you are correct--the small business section is still offering XP. I guess I should have thought to try that. But I believed what the salesperson told me, gave up, and went to HP.

Re:HP's got the clout

[HAKdragon]

Yeah, but can you build your own laptop?

Re:HP's got the clout

[mastershake_phd]

(LOL Sir Bill. Did you forget backwards compatability got you where you are? Remeber what sunk NetScape? A re-write.)

Well he broke compatibility for some programs (mostly games) between 95/98 and 2000/XP. That "run in 95/98" compatibility mode seemed to be a placebo. And running DOS programs on a x86 in an emulator is ludicrous.

Re:HP's got the clout

[Stewie241]

What about Apple? How come I don't see anyone insisting that Apple offer their computers sans OS X and pre-loaded with Linux?

Cause nobody would want one. Apple without OS X is just another clone in fancy packaging.

Re:HP's got the clout

[Anonymous Coward]

What about Apple? How come I don't see anyone insisting that Apple offer their computers sans OS X and pre-loaded with Linux?

Cause nobody would want one. Apple without OS X is just another clone in fancy packaging.

Why would nobody want one? What about all those people who posted to Dells website? Wouldn't those people want one? I don't see Apple as any different than Dell or HP. The majority of Dell and HP buyers want Windows. So why the insistence that Dell or HP offer an alternative but not Apple? Especially given that Apple doesn't have to answer to Microsoft.

Re:HP's got the clout

[fangorious]

His knighthood is not of the order to garner the title of Sir, you must be British for that to apply. Otherwise you are limited to the suffix K.B.E/a. (Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire).

Re:HP's got the clout

[M. Baranczak]

It takes clout to stand up to Microsoft. Smaller companies have little choice but to toe the Microsoft line and act as Windows pimps for their Redmond masters, but the huge players--IBM, HP, and Dell (if Dell had any backbone) can push back a bit

You got that backwards. There are plenty of small companies right now that are offering preloaded Linux systems without making you jump through hoops, like System 76. It's the 'huge players' who fear the penguin.

Re:HP's got the clout

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the Mac mini would be an attractive beast, if it were a bit cheaper. The only competition I know is the FSC Esprimo Q, and it costs way more than a mini.

That said, I sold my old mini G4 for a Linux PC. I prefer the cheap DVD burner and cheap 3.5" hard disk I get for less money. Desk space isn't really that scarce a resource for me.

Re:HP's got the clout

[TiredOfCrap]

Last year we purchased in excess of $60,000 of systems from Dell. This year, so far, $800

This is simply because Dell are refusing to ship to business clients with Vista installed. No problem, we are now selling HP, and Dell have already lost over $20,000 of our business to date.

There is no way that we can supply Vista systems to our clients when their highly expensive proprietary software cannot work with Vista.

Dell have absolutely shot themselves in the foot on this one.

Re:HP's got the clout

[john g the 4th]

I for one would like an Apple PPC with linux pre-installed. In fact I have an iMac (G3 600Mhz) at home I run Ubuntu 6.10 PPC on for my daughter, and it runs better than the OS9 it had on it. In several comparisons that I've done (and read) Linux generally performs as well, if not better in some cases, on PowerPC hardware than Mac does. However, that has changed to some extent with the switch to intel. Though there are several articles floating around the web stating that when linux is configured to run on the Mactel iBooks, the performance is still marginally ahead for linux. Personally, if I could get my hands on a Power6 PC, and slap linux on it, I'd be all but done with x86. I'm personally surprised that IBM isn't doing this in lieu of the Apple switch to Intel. Basically.. if I could get an intel iMac with Linux preloaded, I'd save up for it and buy it. Right now, I find MacOS X to be about as useful as a second butthole. (And yes.. I've used OS X, a bunch.)

Re:HP's got the clout

[livewire98801]

Perhaps this is the first time one of the "huge" players has had proper incentive to stand up to Redmond?

Re:HP's got the clout

[MBGMorden]

Maybe you were looking in the wrong area. Inspiron laptops (the cheapo's that they market to average consumers) don't have XP as an option, but if you look at the Lattitude laptops (the business class ones), they all still have XP as an option.

Re:HP's got the clout

[Anonymous Coward]

That is insane. What if you are running a cad program and support only covers certain OS'es?

Then you buy from the "small business" section, and they'll happily ship it with XP.

Re:HP's got the clout

[jusdisgi]

Personally, if I could get my hands on a Power6 PC, and slap linux on it, I'd be all but done with x86. I'm personally surprised that IBM isn't doing this in lieu of the Apple switch to Intel.

They aren't?

Re:HP's got the clout

[hacksaw5150]

XP is no longer a product that Dell and many other OEMs will install on the desktop for you, but you can still downgrade your license to run XP if you don't want Vista. http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?Fa milyID=4f4b3cfd-7f4e-46cb-8117-8275f7683d3f&Displa yLang=en

The downside

[AlHunt]

The downside to an explosion of Linux installations?

Linux Geeks getting called out when friends and neighbors can't get their Linux Desktops working.

Remember - this was all your idea.

Re:The downside

[gi.net]

Downside?

It's would be far less frustrating than the current situation:

Linux Geeks getting called out when friends and neighbors can't get their *MS Windows* Desktops working.

And you can do it remotely and securely.

Re:The downside

[BigBuckHunter]

The downside to an explosion of Linux installations?
Linux Geeks getting called out when friends and neighbors can't get their Linux Desktops working.

I'm just thankful I chose technology rather than a medical profession. At least I don't get creep'd out when my neighbor says, "Hey, would you mind taking a look at this".

BBH

Re:The downside

[theguyfromsaturn]

Trust me... it happens less than with Windows. The best thing I ever did was switch over my aunt and my parents to Linux. It went from weekly calls that things weren't working to just check things out and update when I'm visiting, and having it done in the background. Plus, there is Ubuntu now. I love passing around those CDs to friends. They know BEFORE installing if they are going to have trouble with their hardware. Thank God for Live CDs.

Re:The downside

[flyingfsck]

One word: SSH

Dat's all folks...

Re:The downside

[an.echte.trilingue]

The downside to an explosion of Linux installations?

Linux Geeks getting called out when friends and neighbors can't get their Linux Desktops working.

Remember - this was all your idea.

I don't consider that a downside at all. I already spend a significant amount of time on the Ubuntu forums trying to help strangers get their linux installation working for no reward at all, and often without enough of a response to know if I ever actually helped anyone. If my friends family all had linux, I could be helpful to people I actually know, find out if I was right or way off the mark, and maybe even get a free beer.

In fact, I think that would be a major plus.

Re:The downside

[bronzey214]

I'm just thankful I chose technology rather than a medical profession. At least I don't get creep'd out when my neighbor says, "Hey, would you mind taking a look at this".


Yeah, you're thankful until that Swedish supermodel and her sisters move in next door.

Re:The downside

[PitaBred]

I already get called out when Windows isn't working... what's the difference? Except for the fact that my laptop running Linux hooked up to the HP printer much easier than my mom's laptop running WinXP? I just clicked a few times, and it worked on my machine. For the Windows machine, you had to go find the correct driver from HP.com, make sure you get the network enabled version, and not the "regular" version, download it, install it, and hope it works. I've still got a printer port I can't delete, but it's not being used.

Re:The downside

[drinkypoo]

It's an upside, because more linux geeks will then be working on usability. True laziness will save the day! of course, in the short term, if you want to get out of fixing everyone's iptables rulesets you should practice saying the following with a straight face: "sorry, I only work on windows."

It may take you a couple of years, so start now...

Re: The downside

[Dolda2000]

Oh, how I'd like that for a change. Say what you will, fixing a Linux system is far, far easier than fixing any problem on Windows. Since, you know, Linux is actually fixable. With Windows, most errors aren't even debuggable, and the few ones that are, are instead unfixable (like spyware that has grabbed ten different methods of being autostarted on boot, etc.), so it almost invariable ends up with a "Well, I'll just have to reinstall that for you", and they you're stuck for many hours backing up, reinstalling Windows, reinstalling twenty drivers and application programs and restoring data. Indeed, I'll prefer fixing Linux desktops any day.

Re:The downside

[evilviper]

At least I don't get creep'd out when my neighbor says, "Hey, would you mind taking a look at this".

You haven't seen some of the PCs I have...

Re:The downside

[Anonymous Coward]

"Would you mind diagnosing this STD(s)?"

Not Impressed.

[tomstdenis]

I hate how people wait till the last possible second to do what's actually in the customers best interest. And almost always only after their business has gone down the shitter.

FSF ain't exactly new. If companies embraced it 10 years ago like they fucking should have, we'd be better fucking off, instead of using half-baked shitastic OSes like Vista nowadays. See, look what your greed and apathy got you.

Don't wait for your corporate masters to decide when libre software is right for you. Make up your own damn minds.

Tom

Re:Not Impressed.

[indraneil]

Actually, its quite hard for non computer people to make up their own minds about something as esoteric as OS. I am sure to be flamed for this, but an OS should ideally just work!
I dont have an opinion on most things myself (and I use them regularly!). For example, I dont really know if a plasma TV is better than an LCD screen TV... I dont know if 5.2 megapixel camera does as well as an 8.2 Megapixel camera (or not!).. actually I can go on.. but the long and short is, I cant expect my parents to make an informed decision on an OS. I suspect they will settle for familiarity over freedom to choose etc etc.
Most non techie people, atleast here in India, will buy the computer that the salesman suggests (and the OS will come preinstalled). If Linux needs to gain traction, the salesman needs to suggest it as an alternative.. and I think unless someone like HP throws their weight behind a linux desktop (or laptop), you will never see any competition

Re:Not Impressed.

[tomstdenis]

You can't be suggested freedom. you have to seek it out. If your parents aren't looking for freedom, no sales person can "force" it on them. Choosing OSS is not just about the cost, or sticking it to Bill. It's about being free to use technology as you see fit (or as close to that as reality permits). At some point, people, individually, have to be responsible for their freedom.

It boils down to people sacrifice what is right for what is easy (hey thanks Sopranos advert that I've seen 3 million times on A&E). For your parents windows may be the right choice, but I suspect that most likely a FL/OSS operating system [and set of software] is probably not only an adequate fit but more useful down the road.

Tom

Re:Not Impressed.

[Dog-Cow]

Ten years ago, Linux was a toy on the desktop. There were virtually zero useful applications that were stable. You didn't even have VMware yet to run Windows while still claiming to be using Linux.

Re:Not Impressed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Calm down...

I don't know a single person who wants linux preinstalled. Everyone either wants to pick their own distro, dual-boot (thus needing the dirt cheap OEM windows license - of course HP could preinstall a dual boot but this is getting quite complicated and hard to support), or would rather have just windows because of the software library or a mac because it's a controlled computer-as-appliance system and is trendy.
And as for closed-vs-open, they excel in different areas, and if one doesn't meet your needs you try the other.

Re:Not Impressed.

[Blakey Rat]

FSF ain't exactly new. If companies embraced it 10 years ago like they fucking should have, we'd be better fucking off, instead of using half-baked shitastic OSes like Vista nowadays. See, look what your greed and apathy got you.

Considering that Linux NOW has about the polish of 10-year-old Mac OS X or Windows, I'd hate to think what Linux looked like 10 years ago. My guess is: crap.

Re:Not Impressed.

[Billly Gates]

I ran Linux about 10 years ago ... wow that long?

Lets go back in time, no firefox just bloated netscape 4.7, NO gnome and kde was still beta and not included, you had to be root in order to use dialup(made me consider FreeBSD), no default gui as init 3 in console was the norm, alot of video cards did not run X right, no hardware detection, no default setup tool for X where the user did not have to do anything, no refresh rate set when your done running XF86Config, and the guis were just BAD. I used SCO which was then Caldera OpenLinux lite 1.2 which had somehting called looking glass wm. That wm was ugly and quite primptive and really bad. Window maker had to be compilied and installed manually. Also I do not think my USB keyboard was supported at the time either.

Thank you HP for not using Linux 10 years ago. It was not ready for anything other than a very simple server with no more than 2 processors. It would have turned alot of people agaisnt Linux.

Re:Not Impressed.

[tomstdenis]

Here's a random idea, if device manufacturers didn't wander down the "windows compatible" (only) route oh say 12 years ago (OMG ADVENT OF WIN95!!!) Linux wouldn't have "sucked" so bad because hardware wouldn't be windows only.

I should point out that when Win3.11 came out it barely had networking. Forget about SMP or even multi users. Win95 didn't have USB or networking, etc... So let's not think that MSFT was half-way any better back then to.

Trumpet Winsock to the rescue. (and I used the "bloated netscape" in windows before IE became mainstream).

Re:Not Impressed.

[chucklinart]

You're entitled to your opinion, but I find Linux eye candy quite sleek.

Re:Not Impressed.

[tomstdenis]

Yeah, LOL LINUX IS TEH SUX! I'M COOL CUZ I have half an opinion about something...

Like I've said before. There are those who mock, and then the rest of us who just use it, look at your comment and ask "wtf drugs is he on?" Surprise surprise, lots of people derive value from OSS tools. Even more shockingly many use them for gain and profit from not having to shell out license fees

In your mind Linux [and I'll just venture a guess, OSS] is "teh sux, LOL" which is fine with me, you can keep paying the lazy-tax.

Tom

Re:Not Impressed.

[Blakey Rat]

I'm talking about *polish*, not eye-candy.

Things like, "if I copy some spreadsheet cells from OpenOffice Calc into an application with no concept of spreadsheet cells, like GIMP, will I see a picture of the cells or nothing at all?"

In OS X and Windows, you see the cells represented in the way the receiving application can cope with them, in this case as an image. In Linux, you generally see... nothing.

Getting details like that right is what I mean by "polish." I don't give a crap how it looks, as long as it's not offensively ugly.

Re:Not Impressed.

[Blakey Rat]

Uh, does your reply have anything to do with my point?

My point is that it wouldn't have been helpful to include Linux with HP computers in 1997 because Linux was far to immature for HP to support or users to use successfully.

I never said people don't derive value from OSS tools. Nor did I ever say that many don't use OOS tolls for gain and profit from not having to shell out license fees. I also never said Linux sucks, although I do believe that it's immature and it suffers from poor usability in general compared to the alternatives. I don't know what the "lazy-tax" refers to.

Re:Not Impressed.

[drinkypoo]

Win95 didn't have USB or networking

Uh, what?

Windows 95 supported TCP/IP, IPX/SPX, and NetBEUI out of the box.

It also came with drivers for an absolute pile of network cards.

Windows 95 got USB support with OSR2.1.

Trumpet Winsock to the rescue.

I used TGV Multinet (I think that's the name) which was like trumpet only it didn't suck. You could use win 3.1 as a router, although that would be silly. But more importantly, it was bar none the fastest TCP/IP stack for Windows 3.1[1].

Later I used the Microsoft stack, because I didn't need routing and it was simpler, and free. But it came out after Windows 3.1 IIRC. It was a free download from Microsoft.

Re:Not Impressed.

[Frumious Wombat]

I ran it 10 years ago. 10 years ago was the cusp of when it was finally breaking out in the technical community, and getting established as the future. You had many choices for desktops: you could run TWM, and pretend you had a 1991 VAXstation, FVWM, and try to convince yourself that you only *really* needed to get a new prescription for your glasses, or early KDE and pretend you were running CDE on something like AIX. LessTIF was trying hard (and generally doing pretty well) to emulate closed Motif, which it seemed everything had been built for, and applications like OpenOffice were still StarOffice, and shipping for OS/2. You could get the kneecapped WordPerfect for Linux, though.

It was getting usable for replacing low-end Unix boxes back then. We replaced several SGI O2 and similar beasties when we discovered that a 16-meg Matrox G400, GNU Fortran (g77), and an early version of Accelerated OpenGL (DRI?) was a fifth the price and twice the performance of the R5K SGI O2. As a desktop OS, though, there were as many Be or OS/2 afficionados running loose as Linux. We also tended to have to purchase a commercial X solution because of some proprietary whacked-out laptop chipset that the XFree team couldn't get docs to or reverse engineer. I remember discussions at work where people would express how they'd rather run Solaris-x86 on their machines than Linux, because Solaris was clean, and Linux had files all over the place, in a mix of SysV, BSD, and downright Odd formats.

I would also add that SMP multiprocessing was new then as well, so while it was showing what was possible, it was hardly a good choice for day to day users unless they were already Unix jocks. It was considered cool to run, but scavenging an old SparcStation was considered an equally viable option.

Don't kid yourself; corporate adoption of Linux for End-users 10 years ago would have been the end of the experiment. Your boss now wouldn't even listen to you when you mentioned Linux at work, and would be probably testing you for drugs at this very moment. It needed time to grow quietly in the dark. After all, 65 million years ago some dinosaur could have paid attention to the early mammals and said, "hmm, those make a nice after-dinner snack", and then where would we be now?

Re:Not Impressed.

[indraneil]

I like the high road you took here.. but most people do not look at a computer as something that defines their identity.. they use it to get a job done.
I take my computer as something that is indicative of me.. but my pen.. naah.. could not care less!
People will make a sacrifice for things they care about.. not for what we care about!
But it was nice reading your point of view!

Perhaps a reason HP is taking mkt share from Dell

[Scott7477]

PC World's posted yesterday iSuppli's market share report for the fourth quarter of 2006; the headline is "HP Beats Dell in PC Sales". It looks to me like HP is responding to what customers are asking for, while Dell is clinging to Microsoft's subsidies. The top 5 vendors look like this:
1. HP - 17.4%
2. Dell - 14.5%
3. Lenovo - 7.1%
4. Acer - 6.6%
5. Toshiba - 3.7%

Honestly it does not matter.

[Lumpy]

What linux needs is more users willing to get off their asses and not only introduce new users to it but also act as their support for a while. too many linux users are either outright lazy or apathetic about other users. I founded a LUG for 3 years and left it because outside the core 5 people the rest of them were almost hostile to helping the newbies that came into the group. All they wanted to do was show off how bads their new gentoo install was or give a newbie crap for choosing mandriva before he started attending the LUG and found linux on his own.

Honestly, it wont change until the typical Linux user quits being an asshole to everyone else. and Yes they outnumber those of us that want to help 10 to 1. It wont matter if Dell or HP ships with ubuntu or some other newbie friendly Linux install, when these people go online or to a LUG to find help they will run up against the "cloud of smug" and get turned off instantly.

I teach a linux for new users at the local community college for free once a year. The real "professors" there still call linux a fad and say that no real companies use it, so they are useless and creating a nice uphill battle that I have to fight without making the instructors look like clueless idiots or I'll lose my ability to teach the class that is full every year.

That is what is needed. Linux users to get off their asses and help 1-2 new people through getting up and running in linux. you never EVER can say RTFM! but have to hold their hands. You also need to be out there debunking the lies that professors and other "leaders" are spewing out of their mouths, but have to do it in a way that is tactful as you are just some guy instead of a professor with 31 masters degrees and smells his own farts.

Re:Honestly it does not matter.

[enjahova]

What you say is probably true, but it will be a godsend for people like me once the manufacturers make it easy to get a Linux ready machine. I helped one friend buy a laptop on the condition that I would only be his tech support if he used linux. I put ubuntu on it and I still cannot get the internal wireless card working (I've tried every broadcom guide, this specific model just doesn't work). Then I put ubuntu64 on a different friend's Acer, and after finally getting the video drivers (proprietary nvidia) to work, I can't get the sound right. I installed ALSA and now when it starts up it just spams the startup sound over and over and won't fully boot.

Yeah so maybe I'm just frustrated, I should mention there is a third friend who I put ubuntu on his Acer and it has been working no problem ever since. So that makes 3 completely non-technical people who ASKED me to put linux on their computer. But I've so far failed two of them in very important ways. Well, I'm still working on the sound problem... but I was just thinking this morning that maybe I won't take on any more computers for friends. I've ruined my last two evenings fighting with it and it just doesn't seem worth it to take on the responsibility of other people's computers when I can't get them to work right.

So please HP, Dell, just come out with computers that will "just work" with linux.

Re:Honestly it does not matter.

[Anonymous Coward]

Poor Lumpy, I feel your pain. When I was a moderator for Ubuntu, I had to stop using an AIM account (in part) from it being flooded with help requests. I'm not one to say "no" either, so I crashed and burned pretty quick. Your 1-2 people idea is nice, but the problem and solution you present is a paradox - most knowledgeable linux users are the RTFM'er types and not in the business of hand holding, but the enthusiastic and evangelic young guns are polite and eager to help but don't know how.

Re:Honestly it does not matter.

[PitaBred]

I was gonna say, don't throw all the blame for that on Linux. Hell, Broadcom chips suck under Windows, being unable to work in multiple modes that are kinda important for more than just web surfing, except under debug drivers. Linux devs do what they can, but if you want to run Linux, the best bet is to get good hardware, and that often means pretty much Intel chips throughout, because of their open source support.

Re:Honestly it does not matter.

[Anonymous Coward]

"I teach a linux for new users at the local community college for free once a year. The real "professors" there still call linux a fad and say that no real companies use it" ...and that is why they are just instructors at community colleges.

Re:Honestly it does not matter.

[nick.ian.k]

That is what is needed. Linux users to get off their asses and help 1-2 new people through getting up and running in linux. you never EVER can say RTFM! but have to hold their hands.

Nonsense. You should be *encouraging* people to RTFM. Note that this is very different from shouting "Leave me the fuck alone, noob!"

A big part of learning anything to do with computers that gets skipped all over the place is "how to think/how to learn". You should never, ever just hold somebody's hand all the way through a particular task or procedure, because ultimately, this is going to prove detrimental to them. Relevant information should be given to the user, and then, in tackling the problem at hand, the user should be asked a series of questions which will slowly move them in the correct direction, but also help establish a general thought pattern for solving the general category of problem being dealt with. Otherwise, the user may never learn much beyond "I think I can call my helpful friend, they'll tell me exactly what to do," which is akin to a full-grown bird looking for its mother to regurgitate food into its mouth at dinner time.

Re:Honestly it does not matter.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry but RTFM! If you want hand-holding buy a warranty and support with you computer. Whole purpose of Linux is to be able to customize and learn how your computer works on your own without any hand-holding. RTFM is the culture that teaches you to think for yourself and work for yourself, if you can't do that then buy a mac. You'll sleep better at night.

Re:Honestly it does not matter.

[cserindere]

I had problems with a friend's broadcom wireless card as well. I finally solved it on ebay with a $25 intel card. It took 5 minutes to change it out and worked as soon as I turned on the computer. Sometimes spending a small amount to upgrade the hardware is worth it.

Re:Honestly it does not matter.

[ankarbass]

It isn't for you. Linux I mean. If you need hand holding then you shouldn't use linux unless HP or Dell makes it available to you. Just because people who use linux don't want to help you doesn't mean they're lazy. Many of us are quite busy dealing with our own lives thank you very much. Claiming that we're lazy because we don't want to take on your personal responsibility is like me claiming that you're lazy because you don't want to come over and do my dishes.

And please don't project this linux user = linux advocate BS on me, I don't care if non-techies ever use linux. The only reason I care that others use it at all is so there is continued development. But there's no need to encourage qualified linux users that the unix way is a better way, they already know.

Re:Honestly it does not matter.

[Anonymous Coward]

"the 'cloud of smug' and get turned off instantly."

Nice asstroturf. But see, the reason this is a big fat bullshit myth, is that there's nothing warm and friendly about the Windows community, either. Funny, when I had problems with Windows, I wasn't buried in helpful volunteer jumping in all "Wait a minute! I run Windows too! Let me help!"

Funny how the claims of Linux elitism never post a single, solitary link to an actual real-life instance to back up their claim.

Re:Honestly it does not matter.

[i_finally_got_an_acc]

While I know there are a lot of assholes that use Linux, my one experiences with the Ubuntu Forums and irc channels are dramatically different from what you describe. Whenever I go there, people have always been very kind and knowledgeable. and they have always helped me with my problems. Whenever I am there, I try to return the favor if anyone has a problem I can help with.

Re:Honestly it does not matter.

[dbcad7]

The hardest part of Linux is the same in Windows.. A little knowledge about setting up hard drives, and what hardware you have. These are comparable in difficulty for the most part when starting with a blank drive. Once installed "support" is not much of an issue with Linux. Programs generaly work the same. You might have to show someone new how to use Synaptic for installing programs, but I don't see where a lot of hand holding is necessary.

The number one thing you should do before installing Linux is to research your hardware on Google to see what problems others have had, and their solutions... Download anything you might need, and burn it to a CD ... including things like instructions. If it seems too complicated, then try Google on other Distros to see if they are any better for your hardware.

When people show interest in Linux, I give them a live CD to use for awhile, and when they are ready I help them install, and show them how to install other programs. I always recommend dual boot.. If they want to totaly dump Windows they should use Linux with dual boot for awhile first, and when they find themselves never going into Windows then they are ready.

Re:Honestly it does not matter.

[Scud]

Bullshit. You can find excellent examples of LUG's out there where the members trip all over themselves to help out.

Just look at LinuxQuestion's numbers:

Threads: 533,043 | Posts: 2,659,550
Registered Members: 283,590 | Registered Today: 62
There have been 1,225 threads and 5,929 posts since your last visit.
Welcome to our newest member, EnigmaPsi

Personally, I think that you should go after those slackers and tell them to quit being so lazy.

Just because *your* LUG didn't flourish doesn't mean that there is a problem with other LUGs. Maybe you didn't police yours as well as you should have.

As for me, I've been answering linux related questions since '96 - '97. Some correctly, some not. In any case, I've never abused anyone asking for help.

And the main LUG that I hang out at these days has a zero tolerance policy towards flaming anyone. No one ever gets told to RTFM there.

So speak for yourself.

Re:Honestly it does not matter.

[the dark hero]

so....when i build my new PC and install some form of Linux on it (which i'm highly considering) will you help me out? or at the very least point me to community that isn't cut-throat?

Call me Cynical, but...

[jeevesbond]

Aren't all the news service sites jumping on stories about big manufacturers possibly providing GNU/Linux? Whilst it would be great to see OEMs pre-installing GNU/Linux it's advisable to not get excited until you can see proof, e.g. the machines are advertised on their respective web sites. As a real alternative to Windows too, not hidden in the depths of the site as a token gesture, so their marketing department can claim that they, 'tried Linux but there was no demand.'

From TFA:

HP has preloaded PCs with Linux in previous years, but the market acceptance wasn't there to do that on a broader scale, according to Small. "Frankly, we did that in the past and didn't see the results for it," he said.

My argument to Mr Small would be that he didn't take a sufficient risk. If they did provide a mass-market GNU/Linux desktop, not many people heard about it. This is why it's important to put any offering on an equal footing with Windows (as difficult as that may be considering their contracts).

The other mistake is with marketing departments making this assumption: 'Linux == Cheap. So people who want Linux, want cheap PC's!' Then they only offer it on some low-end model no discerning geek would ever buy. Had they actually bothered to ask the community they would have found that most want Freedom, not free beer. I believe Wal-Mart and other large US shops rolled-out some rather pitiful offerings recently.

He added that HP also plans some enhancements to its channel programs to help in the delivery of Linux solutions, but he didn't give details.

What does this mean exactly? To a layman such as myself it sounds like they are considering doing the same as Dell and getting their hardware certified with some GNU/Linux providers. A step in the right direction, but hardly the Holy-grail of pre-installed GNU/Linux this article is trumpeting.

Re:Damn. Time to move to BSD

[SpaghettiCoder]

I agree with you 100%. The only problem is the network support for the open source BSD OSes. Ndiswrapper and Prism are well-established in Linux, which is an important reason for its popularity.

Re:Fear: once they get a look a Linux

[WindBourne]

And for such a brave and intelligent statement, you post as a AC.

Have some balls.

Re:Damn. Time to move to BSD

[alphamugwump]

That's why the kernel and KDE and the GNU tools are GPLed. So they can't switch to proprietary formats, or copyrighted crap. IF everything was BSD licensed, we would be in trouble.

They also give free courses

[hopbine]

Go the HP Learning center at http://h30187.www3.hp.com/ and look for the free Linux courses.

Re:They also give free courses

[SpaghettiCoder]

I had a look. It's only very easy-peasy stuff - it doesn't teach Linux properly. A Linux course should explain basic computer architecture, what is an OS, how OSes work, what Linux is and how it works, filesystems, etc. all leading up to the point where the user can take control of their Linux system: modify the kernel. Otherwise they can already do most of the stuff that HP wants to teach them, with their Windows system.

Re:They also give free courses

[swillden]

I had a look. It's only very easy-peasy stuff - it doesn't teach Linux properly. A Linux course should explain basic computer architecture, what is an OS, how OSes work, what Linux is and how it works, filesystems, etc. all leading up to the point where the user can take control of their Linux system: modify the kernel. Otherwise they can already do most of the stuff that HP wants to teach them, with their Windows system.

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable way to teach Linux to people who only want to use the machine, not hack their kernel. Why is that not "proper"? Should every Windows course cover ntkernel internals and sophisticated registry hacking?

Linux allows you to hack whatever you'd like to hack, which is great and a lot of the reason it's my favorite OS, but it's been a long time since kernel hacking was required to use the operating system effectively.

Re:They also give free courses

[lazycam]

The problem is that there is still a pretty large learning curve to linux. It does not take much time to teach a kid how to 'ls','cd', or grep their process list. Problems come into play when their internet goes down, or they forget their password. Or, when they really need to run a windows specific program that their professor/boss hands out. If HP and Dell offer a list of "supported" MS/Linux programs and offer easy RPM/.deb install methods, I'll be behind them 100%. The critical mass of linux users will develop over time, it can be forced upon them as an incomeplete solution (i.e. mp3,mpeg,dvd support out of the box). Stay the course, otherwise the only punch we'll see comes from Joestown.

Re:They also give free courses

[redbeard55]

You were doing fine up to this point:

"all leading up to the point where the user can take control of their Linux system: modify the kernel. Otherwise they can already do most of the stuff that HP wants to teach them, with their Windows system."

We are talking about end users, not Geeks or CS majors. 99.99% of users do not want to modify kernels etc. They want to be able to use their systems to get business done, access the internet, use office apps. play music/videos and play a few games at home. I think the Linux desktop finally has a chance to take off because the work that has been done by several distributions to make the Linux desktop usable without diving into the kernel or editing 50 config files to get a usable system.

Re:They also give free courses

[SpaghettiCoder]

I agree with you, but the point of Linux is that the users are supposed to be the potential developers too. It's not Linux if it's not transparent. It can't be right, if you have a bunch of people using Linux apps effectively (because they sort of mimic Windows) and who can schedule tasks and maybe do some Bash scripting, who don't have the first idea about what an OS is or what it's doing, or how Linux works under the hood. To this end, it's important to train users about the kernel structure, so it doesn't seem like magic, and they can change all of it or some of it just because they want to. You can't do this with Windows, because Windows is closed source. It's quite hard to learn about kernel hacking without a teacher, so there's a lacuna for free courses teaching that. But there are already many websites clearly explaining what the HP Linux courses purport to teach. So you're right, but I think it's a missed opportunity nevertheless.

Re:They also give free courses

[redbeard55]

You are just way off base here. If this is the approach taken Linux will be nothing but a leaning tool and not an operating system. You drive or ride in a car or bus to get around and may have even flown in a plane. How many of these tools that you use regularly can you take completely apart and modify/repair? What about the elevator, microwave . . . ? A computer is a tool that a user wants to use to get things done.

Re:They also give free courses

[SpaghettiCoder]

Well OK I take your point but (sorry to degenerate into ideology) this kind of approach seems pyramidic-hierarchical, where people are only told exactly what they "need to know" and no more no less. It's fundamental to our human condition are important to our future that we are allowed to think abstractly, and to explore applied mathematics (which is exactly what computer science is) even if for rice and bananas we just have to sweep the streets. Unfortunately while computer technology has raced ahead, the same can't be said for our education system, where a person can spend 18 years in a state school and is then expected to migrate to the factory floor, purely on the basis that someone or some committee has decided they don't need to know how a bootloader for instance works, as long as (for basic subsistence) they wake up early in the morning to make some more money for someone who has capital. The Linux open source approach has traditionally offered freedom from this kind of attitude - because you don't need capital or license to take control of the technology. It's a bit irresponsible to rely on others to do it. If HP started teaching Linux with a "from scratch" mentality, that would definitely be much better than anything a state-sponsored community college could offer.

Re:They also give free courses

[redbeard55]

I definitely agree that the current level of user knowledge in the MS window point and click centric world is not good. It drives me nut when a user wants to do something basic and is afraid to even look around in the menu to try and figure out something, they want me to tell them: first click this and then click that. I always try to get them to think about the task and not what order to click the buttons in. Or when they get an error message and they don't even bother to look at what it says, (not that they are usually that helpful) they just want to know which button to click.

One of the arguments I have had in trying to get a school to use OpenOffice instead of MS Word was that OpenOffice isn't exactly the same as MS Word and Word is used in business. My argument was teach the students to use a word processor in general, teach them to think not just a succession of clicks to complete a task.

I don't think that the vast majority of users have even a basic understanding of the way things work on a conceptual level. So I think we do agree that the current way of teaching users to use a computer is flawed, it just how deep do we need them to go into the details.

Re:They also give free courses

[lilomar]

I agree with you 110%. At my university, all students are required to take an "INFO1110" class, which is basically a class to teach you how to use M$ Office. Note-not how to use an office suite, how to use MICROSOFT OFFICE. In the tests for these classes you are asked to perform a task in, say, a spreadsheet, then, if you don't do it exactly the way you were taught (aka - using a keyboard shortcut instead of going through a menu) you lose points. As an OOo user, this annoys me to no end, why would I ever need to know all of these M$ specific rules when I can just translate what I know about Word Processing in general to any office suite I want? Of course, you can't expect much from these professors, one of them was quoted as stating that Linux was a program that you ran under Windows. That is called brainwashing.

Re:They also give free courses

[PitaBred]

But if you WANT to know, it's there. That's what's different about Linux and Windows, the availability of the info. If you NEED to know, then there's something wrong with Linux that needs fixing (we already know Windows needs fixing because there are a lot of things you need to know that you can't find out, such as file formats and network protocols)

Re:They also give free courses

[RKThoadan]

I don't think it's teaching them what someone thinks they "need to know", it's teaching them what they might "want to know". And frankly, if the course is done halfway decent, they'll be able to search out any more information they could possibly want. I know very little about the linux kernel, but I do know there's tons of documentation out there for it, and compiling your own it is childs play now. I just wish there was as much documentation for xorg.conf!

Re:They also give free courses

[geekoid]

"I agree with you 110%. "
So I take it math wasn't a priority at your university? ;)

Re:They also give free courses

[geekoid]

Thats what people want, to be told what do do to accomplish there goal. Nothing else.

You may not like it, but that's the way it is.

The sooner you relize this, the sooner your Zeal will stop scaring people away from Linux.

Re:They also give free courses

[BrianPan]

Nothing says welcome to Linux like go to url h30187.www3.hp.com

Re:They also give free courses

[Chandon Seldon]

A computer is a tool that a user wants to use to get things done.

This is a perfectly valid argument, to a point.

The fact of the matter is, most office workers sit in front of a computer for 8 hours *every day*. That's more time than a carpenter spends working with his cordless drill or a pilot spends in an airplane cockpit. Sure, not everyone needs to know the differences between a semaphore and a spin lock, or a precise vs. conservative garbage collector - but if your *entire job* consists of using a tool, you probably should have some basic grasp of what it is and how to use it.

Re:They also give free courses

[AJWM]

Nothing says welcome to Linux like go to url h30187.www3.hp.com

Okay then, go to linux.hp.com -- it gets redirected to some godawful URL, but it still gets you to the HP Open Source and Linux page, with links off from there to whatever aspect grabs you.

Re:They also give free courses

[evilviper]

Should every Windows course cover ntkernel internals and sophisticated registry hacking?

Yes. EVERYTHING is in the Windows registry. If you don't know how to do some advanced registry editing, you're pretty well screwed when something trivial gets corrupted, incorrectly set, etc.

Re:They also give free courses

[swillden]

Should every Windows course cover ntkernel internals and sophisticated registry hacking?

Yes. EVERYTHING is in the Windows registry. If you don't know how to do some advanced registry editing, you're pretty well screwed when something trivial gets corrupted, incorrectly set, etc.

I think the normal Windows user response to that situation is to reinstall.

My response to that situation is to install Linux ;-)

Custom deals

[ronanbear]

If they preinstall Linux, even for specific customers, then they are distributing Linux. In that case they are distributing GPL software. Hence, anyone who's interested in what Linux they're putting on these computers should just ask HP for the source code to all the GPL's software.

Might be useful to see what if anything HP are doing to ensure compatibility with their hardware.

Re:Custom deals

[alonso]

Only how receive the os has the right to ask for the source.

Re:Custom deals

[Dog-Cow]

Please note that HP is only required to provide source if you obtained the binaries (i.e. a system) from them. They have no obligation to provide source to random people that ask for it.

Re:Custom deals

[TERdON]

You have misunderstood the GPL. It doesn't give anyone the right to demand the source code to the distributed application, only people who has received the distributed application get that right.

And this can also be done in several ways - bundling a source code CD, private FTP download, etc, etc. The only reason it is so popular to distribute it to everybody on the internet is that that is actually a simpler solution, and in most cases the distributor is even interested of getting a widespread usage of the application.

Re:Custom deals

[AJWM]

Anyone who gets Linux software from HP does indeed get the source. Even under the GPL, nobody else is entitled to it from them.

However, as far as what HP does to ensure hardware compatibility, those changes all get contributed back upstream for merge into the mainline anyway. (For example, take a look at the cciss drivers.)

Re:Custom deals

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you misunderstood the statement. Maybe if HP was bugging Nvidia for source that their customers were bothering them about, something good would happen. Same goes for wireless drivers etc. Only language these bigwigs can speak is "cash."

multi-thousands?

[Anonymous Coward]

you mean "thousands"?

Critical Mass

[lilomar]

"We are involved in a number of massive deals for Linux desktops, and those are the kinds of things that are indicators of critical mass...that's an indicator." Perhaps the most telling quote in the entire article? This indicates that the major OEM's are at least keeping track of the popularity of Linux to the desktop user. If this is true, Pre-loaded Linux is inevitable, since all the numbers do indicate that linux popularity is rising.

HP Ad

[Iron Monkey]

And just this morning I saw a flyer for HP systems in the Globe and Mail. All of the screens were a lovely shade of Ubuntu brown. Yeah I know... but one can dream, right?

More ways to compete

[Mateo_LeFou]

It is true that greater Lx adoption may start to look enticing to the crapware guys, but don't forget that an OEM can compete on things other than price. Namely: *features.

Dell or HP could easily develop a GNU/Linux system optimized for their hardware. It would run circles around a comparable XP installation, and it would include with an Office Suite.

There are also other ways to compete on price: with kernel optimization, a 2 GHz/512MB RAM machine (read: cheap) can outperform an XP machine with higher specs. I'd even like some manufacturer to experiment with one of the business-card (50MB) distros that can be loaded completely into ram (with 400 MB left over). Try one of those if you haven't... talk about the Wow starting now...

Re:More ways to compete

[phoenixwade]

but, there is still that bottom line thing.

If a manufacture, say HP (to stay on topic), devotes resources to the development of a distro that runs perfectly on their hardware, there has to be a payoff. otherwise there is no incentive for HP to devote the resources, nor for the consumer to purchase.

My supposition (and it is an educated guess, no more) is that there is a substantial amount of money involved in third party software pre-installed on a consumer level machine. Based on that guess, I wonder how much money is involved... $10 - $20 or $40.00 US? Is it enough to cover the Windows licensing? If that is the case, where is the incentive to move to Linux? If HP does start collecting money on third party installs, then it gets really interesting. Since they are not paying a license fee for the Linux install, and would be collecting on the TPC (Third Party Crap) the price of the machine could be driven down to the point where it competes VERY effectively with windows. My observation is that consumers of PC's, as a whole, are price shopping far more than most of us give them credit for. A Linux machine that does what they want, for $300.00 will outsell a $400.00 windows machine of equal performance.

I don't think the "feature" set or performance set is nearly as important.... When Apple introduced the PPC G4 series of machines it was easily a faster machine with a larger feature set as the same class of windows machine. At that point windows was still playing catchup with features in the OS, with "snappiness" of response, and so forth. because Apple equipment was percieved as being more expensive (generally speaking, they were, ROI and ancillary costs (IT support, training, etc.) might have been lower overall, doesn't matter. the price tag to take it off the box out of the store was less, or perceived to be less. So, Macs did NOT make much in the way of inroads anywhere (well, except for video editing houses, We LOVED final Cut Pro when it came out, and love it more now...) and, in fact, lost market share (or grew market share slower than the rest of the industry, same difference).

Linux has the opportunity to fix that perceived price tag, since the software costs less to install, maybe. there is always that other side of the marketing coin... the one no-one talks about, because it's a closed door deal: Third party installs. If the manufacturer is getting fees for installing the software, it's possible that the Windows license is off set or actually fully paid for with a small profit. "Free" software that is a net zero dollars might not be a plus in that case, and it would be a logical reason that the hardware is more expensive with Linux or with no software.

Re:Fear: once they get a look a Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Right. Because trolling a web forum under a pseudonym is sooo much more macho than without one.

Grow up! You and the troll.

2k7 != 2007, 2k7 == 2700 !!!

[SpaghettiPattern]

OK, I'm in pedantic mode. Anyway...

Usually, 2k7 means 2700. Like in 2k7 Ohm. And not 2007!!!

Re:2k7 != 2007, 2k7 == 2700 !!!

[Aladrin]

Usually? I've never heard that before. 'Usually in your circles', you mean. The term didn't come into wide use until we hit the year 2000, and now it is a common abbreviation for years beginning with 2001. If you read '2k' as 'two thousand' you get two thousand seven from 2k7.

http://www.wordspy.com/words/2K1.asp

How did you make it to 2007 without knowing this, anyhow?

2700 would be 2.7k in any other field, btw. 2k7 is an odd way to say it.

Re:2k7 != 2007, 2k7 == 2700 !!!

[Tony Hoyle]

No, 2k7 is normal in electronics. First time I've ever heard that it could be interpreted to mean 2007.

Re:2k7 != 2007, 2k7 == 2700 !!!

[Chandon Seldon]

Are we talking about discrete integers used primarily as sequential labels, or are we talking about decimal floating point numbers. In the first case, 2007 makes obvious sense. In the second case, 2700 (accurate to two places) makes obvious sense.

Re:2k7 != 2007, 2k7 == 2700 !!!

[1u3hr]

How did you make it to 2007 without knowing this, anyhow?

I guess I've been living in a cave for the last 6 years too, first I've heard it. Seems rather a pointless abbreviation. Replace "2007" with "2k7", saving a grand total of one character, and confuse half your readers. If you must abbreviate, try '07, which at least is a standard form, and will work after 2010 too (or are you going to write "2k10"?).

Is Billy G gonna have to choke a b*tch?

[straponego]

Giving it away? You still owe daddy that money. I can't decide whether the adware/spyware user-hostile software is the crack or the clap in this equation, though. Regardless, it's better when it's consensual, safe, and free.

I have a friend doing Linux work at HP. They have a lot of Debian/Ubuntu people doing good work. They're profitable and the work they're doing fits with HP's pre-Carly reputation as an innovator. So you can see why Dell would be afraid of all that, but here's hoping HP as a whole can break out of the cycle into a healthier lifestyle.

still some bumps...

[Grinin]

Regardless of which company comes to the market with the first OEM Linux desktop installation, its going to be whichever company can come up with the best infrastructure in the shortest amount of time. They can't sell computers they can't support, thus they will need to setup call-centers prepared to handle Linux problems. They'll need to create tons of help-files for the call-centers to use. They will also need to make sure that whichever distribution they end up using has an easy to use and easy to manage software package installer, otherwise new users will be so turned off by Linux that they will just switch back to Windows, bow their heads, and continue to march under the control of Microsoft.

The alternative would be if one of these companies said "Buy Linux at your own risk" "Support yourselves" or something similar, then marketed it to the geeks of the world saying something like "You asked for an alternative... we gave it to you"

Who knows... only time will tell us how this one plays out. My only hope is that people stop buying into the Marketing machine of Microsoft. Which is one reason I like the Mac (Friends) commercial... not because it makes entirely true claims, but because it gets people to think about things instead of just going with whatever MS tells them to do. ... and "I'm having open-heart surgery today" cracks me up everytime.

You are stark raving mad. Like frothing mad.

[NDPTAL85]

Are you on some REALLY POWERFUL DRUGS?

10 years ago Linux was a barely useable pile of dog doo to anyone but the most autistic of geeks or obsessive compulsives of nerds.

Now and ONLY now is it approaching something decently usable by regular folks. So you wanted corporations 10 years ago to have invested time and money in Linux as it was back then? To compete with Windows 95?

I ask you again sir, are you on something?

one button recovery ..

[rs232]

'they will need to setup call-centers prepared to handle Linux problems. They'll need to create tons of help-files for the call-centers to use', Grinin

There's only one thing more futile than phoning a call center, that is working in one. What's needed is a hidden recovery partition that can be activated with a single click.

'Rescue and Recovery is a one button recovery and restore solution that includes a set of self recovery tools to help users diagnose, get help and recover from a virus or other system crashes'

was Re:still some bumps...

Re:one button recovery ..

[Grinin]

While I agree that there should be a recovery partition with an easy to access method for recovering the system, it should also backup your personal documents to that partition so the user doesn't lose any data. Aside from that, no manufacturer in their right mind would ever think that a recovery partition would be the solution to their "tech support" and infrastructure problem. Ultimately, there will be users who will refuse to simply "recover" their system from a partition.

But I agree, it should definitely be included.

Re:one button recovery ..

[rs232]

'it should also backup your personal documents to that partition so the user doesn't lose any data'

As on this system, the users data is on a seperate partition. But then important data would be backed up off site. Who would be stupid enough to keep nine months of data on the C: drive with no backups. Well er .. the average home user.

'no manufacturer in their right mind would ever think that a recovery partition would be the solution to their "tech support" and infrastructure problem'

The so called "tech support" offered to the home user is non-existant. Call centers in some third world country staffed by staff with almost two weeks 'training' who read from a crib sheet. Manufacturers only offer real tech support to the corporate accounts, where the real money is.

Offering such tech support is a public relations exercise. But then who really pays for this. Microsoft, Dell or me if I sell a box to a small business. From what I remember from working in a small computer business, we sell them the box and go back in three times in several months to 'fix' it - at no cost. At roughly $200 an hour that would work out at $1,000 worth of free tech support. So basically I buy a PC from Bill and Michael and then go back in and fix it for free. That's one way of getting rich.

'Ultimately, there will be users who will refuse to simply "recover" their system from a partition'

How can you talk someone through reinstalling TCP/IP, who can't insert a CD into the computer and click on 'INSTALL'. Or someone who enters his own phone number into 'dialup networking' and keeps getting busy.

lets hope they don't get Lonovoed ..

[rs232]

Last summer, Lenovo agreed to preload Novell Inc.'s SLED 10 (SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop) on its ThinkPad T60p mobile workstation.

Then, Lenovo started retreating, and hemming that they really didn't mean that they would offer it pre-installed

Lenovo recommends Windows Vista(TM) Business for business computing.

How many people do you think know how to program?

[NDPTAL85]

Wider adoption of Linux is not going to turn more people into operating system geeks simply for the fact that Linux will not gain wider adoption until it is easier to use.

Despite what you may think the vast majority of people have absolutely no interest at all in learning how an operating system works. Who has the time for that anyway? Should I learn how my TV works? Or my heating system? Or my Microwave? Don't know, don't care. All people care about is if the stuff works or not. If it stops working they don't fix it themselves, they hire someone who specializes in it to do so. The entire reason Windows has such wide adoption is because its easy to use. The fact that I as a consumer or user cannot take a look at or modify personally the Windows kernel matters not one in the least to me. Why? Because I don't know how to program anyway! Its not like anyone can just become a computer software programmer. To some this ability comes easily and for the rest of us it would take far more work than its worth to learn how to do.

Like do you get that? The fact that programming is not an easy thing to do for most people? If it was everyone would program their own software and there wouldn't be a market for for-pay software in the first place!

Everyone does Linux pre-installed on servers...

[blorg]

...Dell, HP, etc. Dell even offers Linux on This article is about Linux _desktops_.

Re:I've been wondering...

[RobertLTux]

because we are to busy making the world work to waste time with stuff (besides as far as the friends count i would count a half dozen with a few thousand "off camera" in the linux picture to your pair with maybe a few hundred "off camera")

worst case senario
you are in a panic looking for a fix
We are sitting on the porch above our bunker that has a full machine shop and chem lab with a store of nibbles and med supplies

What about HP-UX / Tru64?

[cparker15]

Doesn't HP own the rights to both HP-UX and Tru64? Why don't they just release either one or both under a free software license and ship one of these operating systems, instead? They have complete control over HP-UX and Tru64 and they have complete control over HP machines. Combining their hardware assets with their software assets just seems like a no-brainer to me.

Re:It's about time . . .sort of

[moeinvt]

"This wont matter unless somehow a major player in the Linux market does something that makes LINUX more appealing to the masses."

The OEM market not only "matters", it's of critical importance. Linux could be the best operating system in the world :-) and it would hardly matter as long as the vast majority of PCs have Windows pre-installed and working. Seriously, how many machines with pre-installed Windows ever see a different OS?

I'm sure you've seen the web sites of the PC vendors which allow you to select various options and have the price of the system adjust accordingly.

When one of the big companies sets up their site with options for:

Operating System:
        Linux
        Windows

and the price of the system changes by an amount roughly equivalent to the cost of a Windows OEM license, Linux will be "appealing".

Windows market shrinking, Linux market expanding

[Kazoo the Clown]

Sure, the percentages are vastly different, but I would think a small but expanding market looks better to shareholders than a large but shrinking market...

HP already ships with FreeDOS

[Anonymous Coward]

And we all know nobody is actually using freedos.

Huge Linux desktop deals...

[MS-06FZ]

Why would someone want a huge Linux desktop?

Re:Huge Linux desktop deals...

[OldJohnno]

I'm extremely far-sighted, you insensitive clod!

Curious.

[kahrytan]

  First Dell and now HP. Why are companies becoming interested in selling Linux pre-installed computers?

And with this new found interest might spark renewed interest from companies to produce commercial applications like PowerDVD for Linux, Antivirus for Linux (Yes, linux does have viruses.), or commercial firewalls (because ipchains/tables just doesn't cut it).

My question remains, though. Why are companies becoming interested in selling Linux pre-installed computers? Is it just coincidence this happen just month or two after Windows Vista release?

Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

I put together my own systems, but I have a friend here at work who ordered from Dell. I saw the printout of his order, too--it said that he'd get XP with the option to upgrade to Vista later.

So the computer arrives... with Vista. Worse, he has a TV Tuner card in it (ordered from Dell), which doesn't work *at all* ... and just now I had to do a rollback for him because Windows Explorer restarted every 10 seconds or so. There are about 17,100+ error messages in the Event Viewer and this machine has only been his for a couple weeks. It took us probably 50 tries just to get to the rollback tool thanks to Explorer restarting.

Oh, and did I mention that when he called tech support, they would *not* "downgrade" him to XP, as I recommended he have them do? They have him stuck, waiting on an updated driver. Even though it's a prebuilt machine and they had to have sold it to him knowing the card didn't work in the first place.

So maybe it's still anecdotal at this point, but I haven't heard anything that leads me to believe that Vista isn't a piece of crap and I haven't heard about anyone who has gotten Dell to "downgrade" them, even if they never actually ordered Vista in the first place. Maybe he did it wrong, I don't know, but the slip he had said he was going to get XP and he didn't. And now he can't.

What worries me even more is that we're eventually going to have to deploy it at work. And all the machines are barely powerful enough for XP. I'm convinced this migration is going to suck because we don't have the manpower to deal with Vista crap, let alone all the users who won't be able to find the things they've moved to make things "simpler" ...

Re:I've been wondering...

[jusdisgi]

Dammit! I'm too busy re-installing windows to get the damn hair plugs and laser-derm you insensitive clod!

Man, bum deal...I'm out getting all the chicks with my fancy spinning-cube desktop...

HP Pavilion m7580n Not Compatible w/Linux

[Douglas Goodall]

HP Will have to do some serious testing with various distros of Linux before they can claim to be interested in the Linux marketplace. I have had significant trouble with a half dozen different HP machines. Since Linux runs so well on almost any hardware, I wonder how I happen to have so many HP Pavilions that can't.