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VM Enables 'Write-Once, Run Anywhere' Linux Apps
An anonymous reader writes "A startup will soon launch 'a kind of holy software grail,' according to an article at LinuxDevices. The dual-licensed technology is claimed to enable more or less normal Linux applications to run — without requiring recompilation — under Windows, Mac, or Linux, with a look and feel native to each. 'As with Java, Lina users will first install a VM specific to their platform, after which they can run binaries compiled not for their particular OS, but for the VM, which aims to hide OS-specific characteristics from the application. Lina comprises a platform-specific application that virtualizes the host PC's x86 processor... A lightly modified Linux kernel (2.6.19, for now) runs on top of the VM. Under the Linux kernel is a filesystem with standard Linux libraries modified to map resources such as library, filesystem, and system calls to analogous resources on the host platform.' Further details, including an entertaining video or two are at OpenLina.com"
Why are people afraid of recompiling? It is pretty painless if the source is packaged well.
Also in how far is this groundbreaking? Seems to be a pretty forward and not too complicated engineering task.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
I hope this lives up to its hype (and promise). I may have to finally break down and get an Macintel (much to the chagrin of my PPC army).
Namely, games. I see nothing on their FAQ or Features pages about 3D support. Without that, games-- and several subclasses of applications (CAD programs, simulations, scientific visualisation programs, etc.) will fall flat on their face.
This is a noble effort, though, but what about the 3D?
With spending like this, exactly what are "conservatives" conserving?
I can't even get applications to run under different versions of Linux without recompilation, given the differences betweeen glibc and gcc over recent years.
"Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire." -- William Butler Yeats
Is this going to hurt Linux adoption? Since most (consumer grade) PCs ship with Windows installed, won't people just bolt this on on top of Windows rather than try a new OS?
What Linux-only games do you want to run on other platforms ??
This is to port linux apps to other platforms. It sure applies to 3D linux apps as well. Of course, it won't be useful to port Windows 3D FPS games to Linux, but that is not a topic here.
Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
A: For performance reasons, we've written LINA in C and C++.
Why not just write the VM in Java, then it'll be truly portable, right? Right..?
>"It's been said on numerous occasions that the big things that are holding Linux back are Adobe [for
>graphics software] and Intuit [for its personal finance software] because they write to Windows, and
>people can't give up those two pieces of software. As soon as companies like that, or companies that
>want to compete with them, start writing to LINA, things are going to change fast."
And how is the likelihood of big software houses starting to write to LINA bigger than big software houses staring writing to Mac or native Linux?
Linux 3D applications generally use OpenGL. Windows / graphics drivers for Windows support OpenGPL. Therefore, this should be trivial (provided a decent X server / DRI "implementation" is provided)
It's like http://www.colinux.org/, but multi-platform. It really does not feel like revolutionary stuff...
CoLinux lacks only a good and painless frontend, and transparent support for X which would create new Windows instead of a X Server client containing Windows. The MacOS port does not feel like big stuff.
The only point of this VM would be performance.
Stupidity is the root of all evil.
Second, what about dependencies, how does she know to read the README file or anything else to figure out what she needs to build this source. You don't exactly include all the source of all the libraries you coded with, do you? Rarely have I seen a project coded from scratch with no dependencies.
See, the issue here isn't that she can't be instructed like a monkey to hit a button. The problem here is that if something goes wrong, she's out of luck. I mean, as it is, the concept of double clicking what you downloaded to install it was a tough one to drive home. And even now I worry about her willfully installing viruses or malware on the home computer. Because she just doesn't understand the concept so well. When you ask someone to build from the source, you're pushing them quickly into something they don't understand and it's just going to result in a bad experience. The ease of use for software is actually more important to most people than its efficiency or anything else. Why do you think Java is so popular?
Gamers are some of the whiniest fucking people in computing today. Stop thinking your 5% userbase total is meaningful. Computers are not a toy. If you want a toy go buy a fucking Nintendo Wiiner you 35-year-old child!
So it's like UML on Windows using Qt/Windows and Gtk directly? And it runs as a layer on top of Win32??
I'm not sure that this effort is really worth it if you've to recompile. With Qt4/KDE4 more or less all of KDE will operate on Windows. Most major open source applications are already functioning in Windows.
No matter what this thing does, it's still an extra layer between the win32 subsystem and the applications.
Now someone can buy an Apple Mac, with an Intel Processor, and a Microsoft Windows OS, and run all their favorite Linux programs, without feeling all that peer pressure to choose a side.
->...you have to compile specifically for it, so it doesn't run legacy linux applications.l
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6279947776.htm
"In Lina's case, the VM is essentially a Linux environment that supports standard C/C++ applications, or even perl and python, if their respective interpreters are installed. CTO Nile Geisinger explained, "You have to compile binaries specifically for Lina, but it's fairly trivial, no different than compiling binaries for SuSE or Red Hat."
-> how is this better than cygwin/mingw???
Even worse:
"Open source developers will be able to use Lina for free, while commercial developers will pay an as-yet undecided licensing fee, the idea goes."
->so, better recompile for free for the three systems.
->wine is the other way round, but at least it doesn't need you to recompile or require you to pay to use it.
->no comments:
"Geisinger hinted that Lina's library set is fairly extensive, after four years of development by a team that has ranged from two to five developers. "There's a lot of code there," he said.
However, a few biggies are missing. GTK+ support is in the works, but not finished yet. There's no support initially for USB peripherals and possibly for other hardware interfaces. And, there's no slick installer to put non-Linux users at ease."
->compare with the resources put e.g. behind java or even cygwin
These kids should focus on making applications work on the desktop first. Hoping their C container will run multi-threaded multi-node applications in the enterprise is a whole 'nother ball of shit. But they don't know that yet. Java can barely keep up, and they've been at it for a decade. Contemplate delusions of grandeur after you get this to run something useful on the desktop. My advice. you'll just get your ass sued off otherwise.
From their FAQ:
'A: LINA is dual licensed. For non-commercial users, LINA is available under the GNU General Public License, Version 2.
If you wish to use it commercially, please contact us to find out more about the LINA commercial license.'
Erm I'm sorry?! You can't stop someone using a GPL licensed program for commercial use.
Do they mean to say that if you want to sell it or do none-free changes then they will sell
you a non-GPL license?
So it looks like right now it mostly supports Qt with some gtk stuff coming along. Anyone else find that odd? Today you can compile your Qt apps on Linux, Mac and Windows and get native look and feel. Why would I want to wrap that with a vmmachine? Just yesterday I ran across an app written in Qt for HDR imaging that is written with Qt and is for the mac, linux and windows.
Do you changes clothes while making the "chee-chee-cha-cha-choh" transformation sound?
Imagine a world where everyone wrote software for virtual machines - the problem occurs when people write software for different virtual machines. Eg: if Pidgin was written in Java, Firefox in Mono and GNOME in Python, to run my ordinary desktop I would suffer the overhead of 2VMs and an interpreter.
Besides, its not hard to write cross-platform C++ code.
I don't understand how it deals with dependencies, especially for GUI applications for that "native L&F." I could understand statically compiled binaries, but it obviously must use some shared objects on the OS because in the introduction video, Windows still required Cygwin.
I don't doubt that this will be useful, but there's just too much hype surrounding it right now, and I can't tell the difference between the truth and the embellishments.
// file: mice.h
#include "frickin_lasers.h"
Oh boy, how unoriginal.
'a kind of holy software grail,' to enable more or less normal Linux applications -- without requiring recompilation -- under Windows, Mac, or Linux, with a look and feel native to each.
Just what i have been waiting for...
Please :)
Are PC games crucial in every situation? I think it's naive to believe that there can't be a success for a technology just because it means it doesn't apply for demanding 3D games. I'm sure they can live without PC gamers and focus on the multi-billion dollar companies who want their applications to work seamless no matter the operating system.
"People are stupid. Persons are smart" -- Agent K, MiB.
The issue is running an OpenGL game in a virtual machine. Unless that machine is quite intelligent about it, the graphics are going to go very slowly.
If the VM *is* clever, then you may start seeing Linux-native games using DirectX.
You could improve performance somewhat (a factor of three instead of a factor of ten, maybe) by making a client/server model in which VM applications act as OpenGL clients connecting to a native OpenGL server. You might be able to use memory mapping to improve the speed a bit more.
Most apps under windows can run on 98, NT, 2000, 2003, XP and Vista!
Why, yes! I AM new here.
This time, for sure!
Sorry, that claim has been bullshit for decades.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
According to the LINA whitepaper, LINA encourages migration to Linux, because commerical OS users will be introduced to countless Linux applications.
I just wonder - if LINA became incredibly popular - would Windows and Mac users really feel compelled to change to Linux? I mean if you could run the vast majority of Linux programs, but still have a few favourite programs that are not supported in Linux (and assuming these don't even run using Wine) then it might be more attractive to keep using LINA and never touch Linux in itself.
Just think of all those people who started using Linux only to have amarok.
VM enables "write-once, run anywhere" Linux apps?
Ultimately, Lina has some pretty lofty goals.
Hi.
1. This sounds like what Java tried to do.
2. Startup!?!?! Watch your pocketbooks!
I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
If you compile different versions, or if a machine automatically translates for you, that doesn't mean you don't have to test on different platforms. If you expect to have a robust product that runs on linux, windows, and mac, you have to test it on all 3. I think people are confused that this will somehow eliminate that step, so you'd save yourself some time. If it's all one source base, then you'll have tons of stuff like this:
-if running mac, then do this fix, if running windows then do some other fix, if running linux then do some third fix
so either your code gets very large and unweildly, or you have 3 different versions and let them branch a bit. Either has advantages and drawbacks, but neither is what VM promises in theory.
Remember: "in theory, there's no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is."
stuff |
JNode (Java New Operating System Design Effort) is an operating system
coded in 99% Java and for the bare metal stuff 1% of it is assembler.
It's VM and the jit too are coded in java.
So yes 95% of JNode is portable but of course if you want to get it to
run on another platform you would at a minimum have to look at the
low level assembly stuff and of course the jit compiler.
Check it out at http://www.jnode.org/
What makes this any better than Qt or WxWindows? Especially for desktop applications, there's not much use for a full Linux environment.
5% of a market of hundreds of billions of dollars is meaningful, whether you think so or not.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Yes, well done lads, you've realised that the technique of locking developers into your API is crucial to keeping development from occurring on other platforms. And that one way of doing this is to invite your competitors as "second class citizens" - whether that's providing a .NET, an IE, a MainWin, COM, or any other number of technologies that were briefly ported to Unix so that when they were finally pulled, there'd be no choice but to move to NT.
It's no surprise that Linux is chasing the guy holding the Windows flag - playing catchup with Windows and commercial Unix has been its aim from day one, and that's why it's so good: it doesn't have to innovate, so the effort goes on producing clean, solid, efficient implementations of well-known ideas. What is interesting is to see Linux players now playing catchup when it comes to business methods.
True enough. But it's just like porn-sites and the defence industry and velcro, if you get my drift: 3D games have a tendency to produce offspring in 3D rotating multiple desktops and those quivering windows when you move them. And _that_, my friend, a user can never do without.
Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
DLL hell is a Microsoft only problem. There is no reason why you can't have more than one libc apart from a lack of disk space - it works by version numbers to avoid loading the wrong library. Your ten year old binaries will still run in most cases as long as you have the other libraries somewhere on your library path. Some distros have the old libraries neatly packaged as "lib*-compat" so you don't have to find them yourself to get an old binary to run.
Volati7e world of
They aren't crucial in every situation, however in this one they are. Gamers are much more likely to be the relatively geeky types who have relatively geeky jobs doing relatively geeky things and making relatively geeky decisions for large masses of people. Many of those relatively geeky people with relatively geeky jobs making relatively geeky decisions for large masses of people use Windows because their games work in it, so they spend their time using/learning/tweaking/promoting Windows. However, if said relatively geeky people with relatively geeky jobs making relatively geeky decisions for large masses of people were linux users (which will happen if/when the games start rolling in) then they will spend their time using/learning/tweaking/promoting linux. The problem with LINA is it provides no incentive for development to further areas where linux itself needs to advance, all it does is promote development to areas that are traditionally linux strongpoints while at the same time removing incentive for Windows/Mac/Operating System Whatever to use linux while at the same time essentially placing a penalty on linux because using linux means that for the most part you won't be able to run programs from Windows/Mac/Operating System Whatever in a reliable fashion without some performance penalty.
While this is nice, personally Id rather see SVS or Softgrid get extensions to support non windows OS's. That way you still have your 'enterprise' management tools.
What business wants to adopt something that doesnt have management tools these days? I know i dont want to make more work for myself.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I can understand the hack value, but why, for the love of God, would i want to run binary Linux apps on Windows? Didn't they have anything better to waste four years on?
There are some binary Windows apps, which could make life easier (albeit somewhat unethical in FSF terms) for Linux users, such as MS Office and IE6, and AFAIK that's what WINE is for (although i've never had the dire need to actually try it). But vice versa??
All the FOSS Linux apps that are source portable - OpenOffice, Perl, Mozilla, SVN, Audacity etc. - already found their success on the Windows platform. Is someone weird enough to make an application which is binary-only *and* Linux-only?
Or am i missing something?
"Most apps under windows can run on 98, NT, 2000, 2003, XP and Vista!" - by durin (72931) on Sunday May 27, @08:49AM (#19291319)
v ermakesgooglehappy.html
3 89.jpg
.reg file inserts, vs. many other competitors noted on its downloads page!
True on that account, & here is a specific example:
APK Registry Cleaning Engine 2002++ SR-7:
http://www.techpowerup.com/downloads/389/foowhate
SCREENSHOT:
http://www.techpowerup.com/downloads/screenshots/
(I wrote it back in 1997, finished it in 2002, & she runs perfectly across Win9x/NT/2000/XP/Server 2003/VISTA, & I have not had to do a "complete rewrite" for any particular Win32 OS version since then, even for VISTA recently!)
APK
P.S.=> Multithreaded design & the ABSOLUTELY SAFEST registry cleaning program there is (mainly because I filter out the ability to remove ActiveX/OLEServer Class Identifiers are valid candidates for removal by users in the publicly shipping model (my personal model DOES allow for it, but I am familiar with how CLSID's work is why, so I allow myself this 'personal luxury' & diff. personal model), which other registry cleaners DO allow, & this causes problems because of other apps' having dependencies on them), bar-none!
I know: "BOLD CLAIM", right?
NOT REALLY - I had it tested by MANY users on all Win32 platforms noted above (native OS platforms, not emulated, but iirc, it even ran under Linux's WINE) using their OWN registry data unaltered by test-rigging
(Rigjobs for tests like that I just mentioned, are ones such as Juoni Vuorio tried to pull while 'testing' his registry cleaner vs. mine & those of others, pretty lame trick imo for him to try to pull - he must think people are stupid or something, & they would not realize that, lol)...
Enjoy it if you try it, it IS the best of its kind & an example of which you speak of... apk
I'm not sure I want to use a piece of software with a fat bunny as its mascot.
If MS had half a brain they would buy this company immediately! This could work like wine in reverse! MS could say to the suits, "you don't have to migrate away from our wind-turd OS, you can buy this emulator!" The suits are too stupid to realize that they would be missing the most important advantage of Free Software, namely freedom, but the suits would like not having to convert their powerpoint presentations to open office!" This is horrible news!
It will end up with a smaller market share than Java with all the same problems. Debugging will be hell and the application on all platforms will suck because it does not co-exist well with the rest of the system. At least with java there were significant security benefits and a large enough base to make simple graphical tools useful. Extensions to java such as SWT also went quite a way in creating a good native UI widget set, but it still sucks.
I'm sorry, but the number of times I've seen the "Write Once, Run Anywhere" claim made for new "paradigms" is fairly scary. There are limitiations to all of these approaches. In this case, running software in complete OS emulation mode denies access to hardware features that have not been successfully ported to the virtual environment, enforces limits of the particular underlying VM hosting operating system in fascinating ways, and absolutely punishes the performance of any disk-accessing operations.
There are uses for virtualized environments, but they're hardly a new approach to code portability.
I daresay we've improved on that since, with perl as one obvious example.
--dave
davecb@spamcop.net
Multithreaded design & the ABSOLUTELY SAFEST registry cleaning program there is (mainly because I filter out the ability to remove ActiveX/OLEServer Class Identifiers are valid candidates for removal by users in the publicly shipping model (my personal model DOES allow for it, but I am familiar with how CLSID's work is why, so I allow myself this 'personal luxury' & diff. personal model), which other registry cleaners DO allow, & this causes problems because of other apps' having dependencies on them), bar-none!
Is your code as bad as your English?
If they make this thing slick and seamless, i'll be impressed. the technology is nothing special (something most OSS people sadly miss the point of ) it's the overall usefulness that's important.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
You can also use wxPython (http://www.wxpython.org), which seems to start a lot faster than LINA (look how many times the LINA app bounces in the dock before it starts), actually *comes with* Mac OS X Tiger, uses native OS controls whenever possible and as of 2.8.3 has a library called SizedControls which automatically applies OS HIG-compliant sizing and borders to your windows and controls on Windows, GTK/GNOME, and Mac (disclaimer: I'm the author of said library). Plus, unlike Qt and LINA, wxPython/wxWidgets is free for commercial development as well as open source.
:-)
So I've been using this 'holy grail' for years, but maybe the VM slowdown and commercial licensing will appeal to some people.
Why not?
It's a far cleaner solution than patching for different optimizations (mmx, sse etc) at runtime. I never understood the attitude that users shouldn't compile software, some people seem to have a pathological aversion to it. It also pisses me of that certain linux distros split off headers into separate packages.
The result of these attitudes are that when a user does need to build software, it's a far more complex procedure than it need be. If users choose to (or need to) compile, let's make it easy for them!
He's just really good at putting in-line comments in his code-- er... sentences.
I didn't realize Dr. Bronner wrote software too.
Make Slashdot readable! See journal.
Frozen Bubble 2 (yes, seriously!)
Want to hear the voice of GOD? cat
Did they port UML to Windows? Are they using coLinux.
Why start at the kernel level? Why not start at the application level,
like line.sf.net did?
That's what I was thinking too, that the sharp line between choosing an OS would be blurred by all of them have common applications. Which is why my parent post was titled "the war is over", but apparently someone doesn't want the war to end. (modded troll) But in this case, who can tell which of the 4 groups the fanboy is defending, or attacking? LOL
If Java's GPL then why do we need another Java?
"Is your code as bad as your English?" - by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 27, @11:29AM
Well, tell you what, lol: Try it yourself, & find out - pretty simple!
(Taking "the high road" here, & your comment is not going to goad me into an argument - not worth my time, as today I am going to enjoy the holiday weekend, & watch my alma mater play for the NCAA Division II Lacrosse title semi-finals (of which I was also a team member of that squad decades ago))
APK
P.S.=> Plus, I have to admit: I am really sorry about it if you can't read my writing (for whatever reasons, be it a fault of my own, or perhaps you have some ADD or dyslexic condition on your end)!
I didn't have my coffee @ the time I wrote it first of all/so you know, so I MAY be @ fault there!
(& secondly (to be blunt about it)? This isn't my "last will & testament" hehe, so I figure it does NOT have to be "perfectly correct" in my writings here, it is only a forums board.)
I (perhaps incorrectly) assumed that folks here are intelligent enough to gain the meaning of words & sentences in the context in which they are used is all... not TOO difficult! apk
The purpose of the run command under the Start menu is for help desk support. Assuming your talking to someone who can hear you and can spell (not always the case) its often easier to give instructions for a command line.
For multiplatform GUI applications you really need a framework. WxWindows if you want a crap framework, or Qt if you want a good one. So since you need one anyways, I don't see the benefit of Lina's method.
In the demo it shows them running a LAMP application (some email thing). This makes sense. Its similar to using VMWare to distribute applications occupied by complete operating systems that otherwise would be hard to configure.
It uses Qt? Where does it say that?
I couldn't figure out how the GUI toolkit thing worked exactly, it didn't say in the FAQ.
Erm. If your application isn't written in Java?
"Am I the only one who was disappointed not to see a single "ONE! ALL-ONE!" punctuating the above?" - by Tickletaint (1088359) on Sunday May 27, @11:04AM (#19292043)
First of all: Please, slashdot "grammar & spelling Nazi's" - Give us a break, won't you?
I mean, guys - It's a forums board, not one's "last will & testament" or other legal documentation, nor is it a posting for grading purposes in academia.
(This is the 2nd time this happened here today, & it is pitiful you guys are reduced to such trivial nitpicking to be blunt about it)...
APK
P.S.=> E.G./I.E.-> If you cannot determine the meaning of what is written (due to dyslexia or over-dependence on spelling & grammar checking softwares on your end), it is YOU with the problem... oh also?
I now would like to see proof of your PhD in English, ok?? You know - the one you most likely do not have...
See, fellas, because until you do provide myself &/or others proof of some documented ability to judge the writings of others (pitiful & weak)? Who are you to judge my writings @ all if you possess no PhD in the English language?? apk
LINRA is no recursive acronym
How can they expect to bar commercial *use* of Lina when it's a GPL'd software product--unless their software must be embedded in the end executables?
Meanwhile, the video describing Lina is terrible. It shows (in a ridiculously puny window) two people installing an Apache-backed *WEB APPLICATION* onto two apparently different systems: a Linux machine and a Mac machine. What's the point of that when a PHP-backed application will do just as well and is nearly as simple use? (And what needed Lina? Apache? The web app itself? Both? Beats the hell out of me.)
There's no word on actual performance of Lina binary applications either, and while they claim additional "security," the reality is that complexity does NOT breed security, and Lina is yet another layer which must be maintained, secured, configured, and reconfigured.
Java already provides all or nearly all of this, and targetting development at Lina would be a massive re-tooling. It would also appear that the LINA PDF is internally inconsistent on the matter of whether legacy *binaries* or just legacy *apps* would run under a Lina host. I'll guess that everything must be recompiled specifically for Lina for it to work properly.
Quite frankly, once Java's GPL'd code is ported to the missing OSes it needs to be ported to, there will be no barrier to Java adoption anymore. Plus, commercial devs can still create independently-licensed Java applications without worrying about Lina demanding their cut for commercial development under Lina.
Like the world needs ANOTHER Puzzle Bobble clone...
> "Dear user: Insert the CD. Type make all; make install. Press return and go for coffee."
Hmmm - You havn't met my Mom have you?
Insert the CD...OK - that's reasonable - she knows where the eject button is - she knows to take out any CD that's already in there - she knows how to close the CD door.
Type something. Well, you didn't say anything about logging in, opening a shell window, being in the correct directory, or that the period in 'make install.' was not supposed to be typed in - and those are only the things that I can imagine that my mom wouldn't be able to do. The number of things that she could misunderstand or misinterpret are far beyond what I can imagine.
www.sjbaker.org
If I read the article right, this is basically VMware (or Bochs) with a different name. How is that going to change the world again ? Don't most distributions already offer binary packages in the first place ? Just because I run Gentoo doesn't mean my mother has to.
For all I care, it'd be nice if we could cull the hundreds of vanity distros and repatriate all those developers onto Ubuntu, Red Hat, Gentoo, Debian and maybe Slackware (if they even care). Heck we could probably merge all the binary distros into a single one with "profiles", because typically a binary that runs on one standard distro, will run just as well on another distro running on the same architecture (as long as its dependencies are met). In a pinch, I can build something on my Gentoo, copy it over to my pain-in-the-ass CentOS box and run it. x86 is x86 no matter what crap you load onto it, it still runs x86 code.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
"... its dual-licensed Lina virtual Linux machine will run more or less normal Linux applications ..."
Well, what is it? Is it more, or is it less?
Research shows that 67% of those who use the term "research shows", are just making shit up.
To: Slashdot Editors
Re: Dupes
I know we bitch about dupes, but can we get a dupe of this article when they actually RELEASE this please?
Thanks!
koules
Are PC games crucial in every situation? I think it's naive to believe that there can't be a success for a technology just because it means it doesn't apply for demanding 3D games.
The irony is that until Microsoft came out with Direct-X and got everybody to code to it, Windows was what you exited out of to play PC games. Windows sold very well to a market where there was no games support of any signficance. (Me, I liked, and still like 'Castle of the Winds' which is a PC game where all the monsters are Windows Icon resources)
If it's running under an emulation layer on a Wintel PC then I think a precompiled binary might be possible. ...and if it isn't, they're doing it wrong.
No sig today...
My cat sat on the mouse and mangled the subject line... ^
No sig today...
thanks
Thanks for the reply.
I don't fully understand the minefield I walk here at Slashdot, but my point was fairly clear. If all the "sides" currently fighting wanted to get along better, then LINA could be a small step in that direction. Unless of course, getting along with others isn't their goal, and instead they really just want to destroy all "others".
As for "evangelizing" Apple & Mac stuff, I've never owned anything from Apple. This doesn't really imply I hate them either, but it does imply something about the type of hyper-sensistive person that would judge me so harshly, and then moderate accordingly.
'DLL hell' was a problem on old versions of Windows. Since 2001, when Windows XP was released, Windows has included a mechanism for allowing multiple versions of the same library to be installed. It's called WinSxS, and to me it looks massively over-engineered in comparison to simple version numbers and symbolic links, as used on Unix, but it's there nevertheless.
I will use this product and/or service because I like the bunny.
That is all.
To me it looked like the summary said "without requiring recompilation".
Still... this is slashdot so you can't expect people to read more then the first sentence.
No sig today...
It's called Gecko. Most of Firefox is written in either cross-platform C++, or XUL/JavaScript, which makes it probably the only browser to itself be an AJAX application. (And Mozilla did the same thing long before AJAX was even a word.)
Also, there aren't many virtual machines out there. I agree, we don't need this one -- x86 is just a retarded target for this sort of virtualization -- but even if we count Java, Mono, Parrot, Python, Erlang, and XUL, that's still not a lot of RAM by today's standards. You'd lose more by having to use different GUI toolkits in your C++ app -- one uses wxwindows, one uses GTK+, one uses QT, one uses TK, maybe one even uses Motif or straight OpenGL. And that's just the GUI -- there are all kinds of cross-platform C++ libraries, some (I'd argue) with more overhead than a VM.
Given the choice between running a bunch of GUI toolkits running recompiled C++ code, and a bunch of VMs running on the same GUI toolkit, I'd much prefer the latter.
Also, VMs can theoretically perform better than C, so I'm only counting RAM usage required by different VMs as "overhead".
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
While VMware's Mac support is still beta, the Linux and Windows versions have been out and available for several full version numbers. Admittedly multiple CPU and 3D accelerated video in the Guest OS need some work. DirectX 8.1 is in beta support. While the VMware Workstation product is expensive, VMware Server and Player are available as free full product downloads with no time expiration.
Am I "net-blind" or is there no where to download this thing? Google around for "Download Lina" produces hits on some MP3s and some hits on the Lina logo. If there is a download version of this project I can't find it.
On the matter of the product itself:
From the videos on the website it sounds like Lina is a new type of VM for C/C++ code similar to the JVM. If that is the case I can easily contain my excitement and hope these guys have a good marketing department. The technology is not 10x better and as such will have a long road to success.
If you can write to Lina and distribute Lina "binaries" or native binaries (that is "exe" on windows) I don't think you'll see much resistance to Lina as a product. You may not see much fervor over it either though.
If you can recompile a Linux project and distribute either "Lina binaries" or native binaries for a program then I think we have gold here. I'll be very excited and it means that Linux could morph into a kind of super Java style API for all Operating Systems... a sort of meta System V.
If all Lina does is provide a VM to write to, (which is what I suspect), then Lina's success is going to be a matter of marketing. But not traditional big marketing... it will succeed on a combination of smart technologist marketing and viral marketing. If Lina has that it might carve out a niche for itself.
The question is, true believer, can Lina make your heart flutter like Linux, Ruby, Python, or PHP did? If it doesn't learn to make your heart go pitter-patter then I it will have to find a way to cut deals to make you want to learn to dance with Lina. Maybe folks at dLoo can cut a few deals that move a critical mass of developers over to the Lina side of the force.
I don't know if I like Lina or not, I haven't even met her. With a hook like this on Slashdot today would have been the perfect time for me to meet Lina and maybe have dinner. As it stands, I'm a desirable geek and get lots of young new technologies interested in my time and attention. I've got Beryl that I'm hanging out with right now, some python code from Numenta that keeps calling me back and looks mighty nifty, I've got new FX-y tech I'm going to spend some time with too... And, that's just this weekend. I may not notice Lina again. I'm sure she's a nice girl with great personality but... the other tech I can meet and talk to right now and Lina didn't even give me a month and day to get back to her on.
[signature]
...so it's reasonably to expect that they take more training to use effectively.
User: OK, I just got into my car. Nothing happens. Now what?
Support: When you took driver training, you were told to press the gas pedal.
User: Gas pedal?
Support: Just press the little pedal to your right.
User: OK, I pressed it. Nothing happened.
Support: Did you start the car?
User: OK, I started the car and pressed the gas pedal with my foot. Nothing happened.
Support: What do you see in front of you?
User: There is a dial with a bunch of numbers from 0 to 140, and a red circle around the letter P.
Support: Did you put the car in gear?
User: What's that?
Support: Do you even have a driver's license?
User: License? Isn't that only for software? A car should just work, right?
Support: Wha, whaa.... I... Wha?
User: Oh, forget it!
http://outcampaign.org/
I don't know which "Linux APIs" they standardize on in their product, but there are very few "Linux APIs" I would be interested in standardizing on as an application developer.
...unlike, perhaps, basing a new product on their technology.
Perhaps this has value for companies wishing to port legacy GNU/Linux products to Windows and OS X with less effort than is required to target Cygwin + OS X native, but then how many companies are there in that situation who are willing to accept the risk of targetting a brand new VM platform from an unknown vendor, and do not already have the inhouse expertise to maintain Cygwin and OS X ports?
And why not Java? That's the question they need to sell any intelligent prospective customers on. If you care about performance to the extent that you don't want to target Java (VM) in the first place, why would you want to target this VM virtualizing the entire Linux kernel, a VM that doesn't have the benefit of years of tuning and performance enhancing technologies from some of the brightest engineers in the industry (Java)? And once again, a VM from an unknown player that is not proven in production?
My suspicion is that this is just a bunch of people looking to be bought out, or at least hired, which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do,
Most people that have used RB speak well of it.
"Why are people afraid of recompiling? It is pretty painless if the source is packaged well."
Like in Squeak for example.
WINE runs Windows software on Linux.
LINA runs Linux software on Windows.
I guess originally they would have called it LINE, but then changed the last letter to A to avoid being just like WINE?
Part of the reason why people develop for Windows are that the development tools are easier to work with than Linux and other operating systems, like Visual Studio, Delphi, etc. Now you have to use Linux development tools, I am guessing C and C++, and Linux libraries to make code to run on this LINA virtual machine based on Linux APIs and the Linux Kernel? The best thing you have in Linux next to Visual Studio is the Mono project, but the IDE needs a bit more work, and the Winforms translation library needs more work as well.
I would like to try it out sometime and see what languages it supports for developing under LINA, when one does not have a Linux box to write the software on. I wonder if it supports the Python language and allows installing other languages on it, so we aren't limited to just C and C++ development.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
On windows this program requires Cygwin. So yes you can run all these apps natively, as long as you first install a extraction layer. And hey I wonder if I can get Cygwin working under wine so then I can go through two extraction layers. Wait, maybe I can then install colinux in wine that pumps x output through cygwin, then I can install wine, and then get cygwin running, then I can install cygwin...
Just write a fucking app in good c/c++ and staticly link libraries not on windows. Compile it and wohoo, a binary for windows. The only thing the least bit interesting is the gtk/qt to native api layer. That should be the library they provide developers with for ease of compiling to different OS's.
LINY is not you!
You are reading a sig. Cancel or allow?
The first step in solving a problem is defining it. But I'm not sure if I should be optimistic that Slashdotters like yourself have such insightful understanding, or pessimistic at the sheer scope of the situation. Perhaps a bit of both will have to do. :-|
How is any of this doing anything at all that Java using the SWT api's does not already do?
Please mod parent down to "D'oh!"
How on earth could I have missed that? I can't even blame that on lack of coffee or sleep. I have no excuse.
Obviously these are 2 different approaches, but anyone care to give som pros and cons of the cygwin approach and this new approach? they both require recompilation so im wondering what the benefit is?
is there no "cygmac" or equivalent?
"I didn't realize Dr. Bronner wrote software too." - by Tickletaint (1088359) on Sunday May 27, @10:57AM (#19291989)
c id=19292419
Well, I don't know who Dr. Bronner is, nor do I care to inquire on it... however, I believe I already replied to YOU, specifically, here (in this thread):
http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=236367&
Read it, drink it in, & digest it.
APK
P.S.=> LeMoyne 6, Mercyhurst 5:
http://lemoynedolphins.com/sports/mlax/index
They're once more, the National Champs again in Division II - My old alma mater (& former team I played for years ago in college)!
So, that all said & aside? Well, each of your "spelling/grammar check Nazi" tactics won't get me down to YOUR level, today, lol... no way, too good of a mood to argue with the lamest of the lame (who think that posting on forums has to be of "legal correspondence grammatical & spelling accuracy" type par, lol)!
A good way to end my holiday weekend on - nothing can spoil that, least of all your pettiness... apk
Write Once, Run Anywhere will never happen for two reasons.
First, there are different utilities and features available to each operating system. Every developer that ignores these features and utilities in order to write a program once for all systems will be at a disadvantage relative to the person that writes a native app. In other words, the native app will run better than the generic app.
Second, people gain access to a flexible choice of operating systems, but the developers get locked into a proprietary language/framework. Again, limited choices means that for some (many?) problem domains, a different language/framework will be a better choice, and by denying themselves that choice, the developer loses a competetive advantage to another developer.
And that's ignoring the issue of just getting it to work as advertised... Java hasn't even gotten there, 15 years later. I'm sure a small subset of problems will work just great with Lina... but I don't think it will do any better than Java in the long run.
Raven
"I will trust Google to 'do no evil' until the founders no longer run it." Hello Alphabet.
So you're upset by someone's lighthearted jibe at your use of english when your entire post was nothing more than an advert for your dreadful and largely pointless windows only app, not to mention a great deal of self-praise. We really don't care about your registry cleaner or how well coded you believe it to be, you're off topic, my friend.
Yes, I know what AJAX stands for. However, the majority of it is something called DHTML (Dynamic HTML), which was simply JavaScript + the HTML DOM.
In fact, most of "AJAX" today is simply DHTML tricks that people were using years ago, but somewhere along the way, JavaScript became something to drive popup ads, and people started thinking you needed Flash to make a dynamic-looking website.
Even the 'X' in AJAX is optional -- plenty of people use JSON instead of XML for their AJAX apps. And the 'A' part? Firefox is certainly threaded, and among other things, it will download a new version of itself in the background (on Windows, at least) and prompt you when it's ready to be installed.
So, I would have called it DHTML, but AJAX is catchier, and it's what people know now. (Besides, it's not really HTML, it's XUL...)
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
, (to make things easier and for 'sharing' code), were obscure pointers to areas of memory.
that required a rocket scientist to figure out what the hell was going on. Wow! We had 'functions' - we could
share code a lot easier!
that required a rocket scientist to figure out what the hell was going on. Wow! We had 'objects' that virtualized
concepts. But why do we suddenly have 'fat' programs.
out what the hell was going on. We had objects that virtualized everything. 'fat' programs? - forget fat these
were obese.
figure out what the hell was going on. Forget trying to virtualize program space - heck let's virtualize the whole
damn O/S! What's a fat program without a fat O/S?!
So, what's next after O/S virtualization? We've tried in the past to objectify and virtualize program space
and to a large extent doesn't work as we either keep changing userland requirements or our methodologies force
us to change.
Don't get me wrong - love virtualization for all the right reasons. But, all we have at the end of the day
is faster and faster machines that sit there chewing up greenhouse gases, (Bring back the old days of the
TRS80!).
-- main(s){printf(s="main(s){printf(s=%c%s%c,34,s,34
This really sounds like they're trying to fill a problem that doesn't exist. If you need apps that satisfy the lowest common denominator, then you build a web app and suck up the time for web development. If you need a highly performant and responsive app, then you write a platform-specific forms app.
Running the whole thing through a VM just wrecks performance and still requires massive testing, plus you lose all of the OS-specific features b/c you had to code for an OS-agnostic VM. Even if it works, it's still wrong :(.
So, let me start with my bias: I work for a tiny company that makes a programming language with interpreted environment (we're working on the compiler now) that runs on Windows, MacOS X, Linux, and Solaris, and I think AIX. (Those are the ones we've actually tried it on, it may run on others.) Our language and development environment facilitates rapid development of web applications. (And anything else you like, but web applications is applicable to this discussion.) Using our language you can write fully AJAX enabled applications (which work on IE, Netscape, Mozilla, Firefox, and Safari, and maybe others) in a Model View Controller pattern without knowing anything about Javascript, with no system dependencies, and in my opinion you can do it much faster with our tools (and be able to run it on all those OS's and browsers) than using traditional languages and APIs (and be able to run it on one OS and/or browser). Once you've written the app, our software will even serve it out (one line of code instantiates and integrates a web server!) so it can be used from various browsers running on various platforms.
Now, knowing as I do that this is all possible - which I'm sure of because I use it every day - it's my opinion that writing software specifically to any API which is tied down to any particular OS or browser is a waste of time. Why spend your time writing software for, say, Linux, knowing that it will just have to be rewritten (or at least altered) to run on Windows and Macos and Solaris etc, when you could write it once in some cross-platform language and be able to run it everywhere and use it everywhere, like Java promised we'd be able to do once upon a time? That promise of cross-platform, cross-browser, write-once run-everywhere computing is not an impossible fantasy, it's something that's here today if you look hard enough, and those of us who develop programming languages and tools for a living should be focusing on it in our work.
So, my point is that "thinking linux first" is indeed a bad thing: if a business person has to decide on what computing platform to use for their software solution and you make them think about linux, they'll just get annoyed because they don't want to have to think about what technology to use and why, they just want to see it happen, and use whatever they're familiar with. They want to think about their business first, and technology as little as they can get away with. The way to get businesses to adopt linux is not to make them think about it, it's to make it so easy they don't have to, and cheap while you're at it. Businesses care about two things, three if they're smart:
1) How to make money
2) How to spend less money
3) How they're going to make even more money in the future
If you can show them that linux will make them money that other OS's can't, they'll go for it. But, there's little that Linux can do that some other OS can't, so that's a poor argument.
You can argue that linux will save money because it's free, and that's good, because businesses like not to spend money, but it's also worrying because businesses like to have someone standing behind the product. Sure, there are companies that provide support and we as geeks all know that, but that's beside the point. Where you can really win is to say that using some particular system will enable the business to be doing the kind of business they want much earlier/faster than other technologies. For example, I watched my boss show a client how they could do something with our programming language in about five lines of code that a competing vendor had told them would take a year and cost over a billion dollars, so our client became *very* interested in using my employer's language a lot more, because it would save them a lot of time and money. So, if you want Linux to get wider acceptance, figure out how using it makes common business tasks go faster and easier than using competing products, and advertise that. So far, as a computing professional my experience with linux is that i
>Besides, its not hard to write cross-platform C++ code.
Yes... yes it is... Please don't suggest such things without actually doing them.
from their article this sounds like another cygwin... only they've added virtualization (so like cygwin but slower).
The main feature seems to be that GTK and QT will be mapped at runtime to win32 APIS... which is... ah... an interesting choice since GTK and QT already run on windows.
This doesn't sound like something that will have mass market appeal... although some companies that want an easy way to port existing unix tools to windows (if they are converting to windows) may take advantage of this.
I have no conception of how the authors imagine this will spur linux adoption. If this works right, the user wouldn't be aware they were running a linux environment. If it doesn't work right (like cygwin) users will be annoyed that they are using some big clunky vm that doesn't integrate with their os.
I specificly do not run linux becuase it does not have game support. I ran it from 99 to 2003 and got sick of dual booting just to play something and having 2 partitions.
MAKE GAMES WORK AND BRING ME BACK TO THE LIGHT!
Well, it is the strongest nail in the MS coffin...
Are we really stuck in the loop of thinking that interpreters are as good as the real thing? We had BASIC in the 1970's then we had Pascal with its P-Code in the 1980's then we had exactly the same thing only it's called Java and a JVM in the 1990's. We are stuck in a rut - none of this is new just the structure (and name) of the language changed.
He did not appear upset. He merely stated that Spelling and Grammar Nazi's are not on topic either. I tend to agree that that type here or elsewhere online are a waste of life and especially on forums boards online like this one. If you cannot contribute useful technical information here, then the spelling and grammar checking fools are nothing more than unskilled pointless idiots who have nothing more pertinent to offer here at slashdot than their critique of others writings. Anyone can write here and most people understand it simply within the context in which the words are used. No, it is a solid bet that the morons who critique others english here could not write a program to save their own lives and this is the best those dolts have to offer.
"So you're upset by someone's lighthearted jibe at your use of english when your entire post was nothing more than an advert for your dreadful and largely pointless windows only app" - by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 27, @10:44PM (#19296839)
2 91319
/. ON YOUR PART.
I never get upset, and calling others actual work in this field 'dreadful' as you have only makes my point that you are not very intelligent if this is the best you have to offer here in reply.
LOL, I don't get upset, especially not at those who are nothing but spelling & grammar check "nazi's" online in forums! I don't mainly because they are very easy to get the better of, especially when asked to produce their PhD in English.
Your reaction shows it.
The fact is, I have YET to see one "spelling & grammar checking nazi" on a forums board produce such a degree in fact illustrating they have any right to critique others writings.
Hilarious, as postings on forums is not legal correspondence, nor anyone's "last will & testament". No need for spelling & grammar check nazi's.
(After all - If you cannot deduce the meaning of words in sentences via the context in which they are used, it's not I with the problem, but those who are having difficulty with them).
"you're off topic, my friend." - by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 27, @10:44PM (#19296839)
And, spelling & grammar checking IS ON TOPIC? Beg to differ: Above all else - I was merely responding to the poster's (durin) initial point here:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=236367&cid=19
Completely ON TOPIC in reply to he, with a concrete working example of what he was stating.
(I.E.-> Windows already has this & many apps run unmodded across Win32 OS builds, even across varied builds of the Win32 OS family (including the 9x series, which differs quite radically from the NT-based series (NT/2000/XP/2003/VISTA), which also has fairly large diff.'s, especially between NT & 2000/XP/Server 2003/VISTA).
"not to mention a great deal of self-praise. - by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 27, @10:44PM (#19296839)
It's based on actual tests noted in its help screen interface and documentation inside the package, which were done by users and their OWN systems + registries unaltered by any test rigging dataset unlike others who have done such tests with similar programs (JV RegCleaner is the prime example of this in fact).
It is nothing but the truth, not self praise.
Just facts, the undeniable item, much as a PhD in English would be for "spelling & grammar checking nazi's" online in forums, lol.
"We really don't care about your registry cleaner or how well coded you believe it to be, " - by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 27, @10:44PM (#19296839)
First of all - You mean YOU don't care: Pretty pompous and arrogant of yourself I have to say, with you speaking for EVERYONE @
(Typical behavior from the unskilled in this field - left to do grammar & spelling checking on a FORUMS board, lol, and speaking for everyone!)
Secondly - I don't believe anything but what tests users themselves performed with their normal registries data on their own systems totally unaltered & thus a fair/honest test, and their results.
(Those same results showed my program trimming off more invalid/registry bloating entries than any other program of its kind out there (good for speed, as well as security (in that it does not let other see things you may NOT want to be seen or traced in your systems in files you may have used @ some point for whatever reasons))).
APK
Point is, it is a waste of time, you and all the other people around want to spend their time in a better way than wasting it on looking at useless (3D) animations when copying files on their pc or watching a powerpoint presentation.
molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
"I watched my boss show a client how they could do something with our programming language in about five lines of code that a competing vendor had told them would take a year and cost over a billion dollars, so our client became *very* interested in using my employer's language a lot more, because it would save them a lot of time and money." And what would that be? Calling a dll with 5 lines of code that contains hundreds of thousands of lines of code doesn't really count...
An important point was made versus your offtopic grammar check: Question - Do you have a phd in English?
c id=19291319
No?? I didn't think so.
(Yes, just another pseudo-authority @ slashdot who assumes he is an authority on the writing of others - provide us proof of your phd in english status, and we might just give you some time in listening to your bullshit which is way off topic).
You and your kind online are hugely amusing, & especially here on a technical forums in that you are quite amusing considering this is not legal correspondence or some academic paper to be graded on first of all and secondly, as others have stated, if you cannot deduce the meaning of words within the context in which they are used, it is truly yourself and other grammar/spellcheck types with the problem.
(Aren't you intelligent enough to gain the meaning of what was stated, as it was written?)
Also, as far as the poster you are critiquing, he was on topic replying to durin here as he pointed out:
http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=236367&
(& the poster you are giving a hard time to stayed on topic far more than yourself by offering a concrete example of an application that is the best and safest of its kind that runs across most all win32 Operating Systems models no less unaltered since its conception).
Can't YOU read? Apparently not, though you are 'the great critic of others' writing with no phd in english' lol, as it is yourself as a grammar/spellcheck fool, who is blatantly off topic.
Hint - this post thread is not about english you moron, but instead, computer sciences.
(Thus, his reply was far more on topic than your idiotic critique of his or others' writing)
Salient point - This is a topic about computers, not english grammar, and he responded completely on topic providing an example of what durin noted.
What programs of that nature have you done better since you call others work in this field dreadful? You are clearly the one who is off topic, not he. I state that as others have here because the poster did reply to durin's points with an example of what durin stated is possible on Windows 32 bit operating systems. Durin's post is the parent of his post, thus, he was completely on topic (unlike a grammar checker fool with no phd in english in yourself). Understand this: This forums section is not about english language, it is about computer science. Additionally, I personally cannot see what you complained about (because I understood his points and examples, perfectly).
This seems like a more mass market application of rPath's idea of building custom VMWare images for specific applications (although the VM sounds like it will be less distinct from the host OS, hopefully this will give performance increase). It is a pretty clever idea, and essentially flips these kind of ideas https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SeamlessWindowsIntegration on their head.
Looks like the Linux Binary Compatibility layner of FreeBSD.
bash$
That's the thing, though. Write-once-and-run-anywhere works pretty well for backend programs, where all that matters is correctness and performance (and with a well-designed framework, architecture's impact on the latter can be minimized). For user interface, however, it needs to operate in the context of the OS on which it is running. Interface metaphors, expected behavior, and available functionality always differ in small but important ways, and failure to take that into account will result in a mediocre program that feels crummy and wrong. The interface needs to be localized to each OS in order to not suck.
I don't see what your parent's post has to do with grammar or spelling.
Sure it does; if vendor A tells you that the work you need done will cost you a billion dollars and take a year for them to implement, and vendor B does it in front of you in 5 minutes using a product you already bought for $1000, which vendor are you doing to call first next time you need a solution?
We didn't, however, call a dll, we don't use dll's.
without prejudice,
... target will copy a file from source file to the target destination with acknowledgment to overwrite the file if it already exists. `rm' source ... target will re-move (delete) the title of a file in favor of its records to be displaced or deleted by the growth of another file record (the data that was attached to that file name can be recovered, but only if it can be discerned accuratly from other data that also may have been isolated for deletion). `ls' or `ls' *pat*tern* will list the titles or names of records or can also list them in preference of an Order to pattern that can vary with the placement of an asterisk (*). `cd' directory will change the immediate scope of the command prompt to the directory reference.
/home directory in similar appearance to /bin, and why is the "fine-grained" discernment between those intentions an obfuscated file permission and file ownership that could be flipped without cause of log and record?
M. Gregory Thomas(tm), Network Redundancy Administrator;
Mundt Administration of Network Redundancy:
I suppose it was once fassionable that a man was taught to be a processor and compiler, then he taught a machine to be a processor and compiler by means of mechanicaly-inclined sprockettes; now, because the man of today has been entertained to use a machine before learning behind that Type Writer we now have an electro-mechanical computer to return the favor of teaching the fair man how to manipulate whole files for the sake of the recorded data enveloped within. It's all a large filing cabinette, with portfolios stuffed full of proprietary data to certain programs and their application of legislated and natural discussions to communication or tranception in a trans-national and trans-continental congress to state their cause to preserve their reality as given them in like-Turing protocol.
The difficulty occurring at the command prompt is basic file-management skills not being amicably presented and discernable to the person. A simple little prompt that says "Welcome to the command prompt! Complete a command by `entering' it with the carriage `return' key. The first command you should know, and return to when you need assistance, is `help'."
I have not yet seen a Linux distribution open a `konsole' or `xterm' with any of that prefixed presentation prefatory to a $ or # prompt. Neither have I seen any integration of certain dynamic widgets to change environment variables in a concise way while the application has seized context of its session; perhaps because not all of the terminals behind a Bash or Korn shell within an `xterm' or `konsole' were designed to interact with any of it.
Let's keep our focus pointed on file management utilities and how they have been named to a shorthand-- `cp' source
That's copy and delete; every Clerk of the Court knows those basic principles, and that is only at the command prompt. Who ever said a command prompt should be in a GUI? `xterm' and `konsole' should be looked upon as the foul and black-sheep of the GUI, because a GUI isn't supposed to be central on the foundation layer of a host but is the mediator between applications and preferably a database protocol independent of the crufty Unix/LFS and Microsoft formats of the filesystem. Imagine a GUI that doesn't manipulate its data as would on the "file system" as we know it, but must always look to a relational database unlike the format of the underlying host. What kind of fool would have a executable Code stored in the same way as would Data? Why is the
without prejudice
M. Gregory Thomas(tm), Network Redundancy Administrator;
Mundt Administration of Network Redundancy:
A shell in a GUI is not the purpose of a GUI; the GUI is nothing more than the presentation and manipulation of data through these interfaced graphical clients that can manipulate one-another.
And I would say, direct your client to run INSTALL.SHELL of which that file would contain the instructions;
without prejudice
Tickletaint the moron has nothing better to do than offer his version of "spelling and grammar checking expertise" haha, and he has no phd in english. Where was it when he is asked to produce proof of it, after all? His spellcheck/grammarcheck is unneeded, and certainly not asked for. This is not someone's last will & testament as was stated - this is just a forums board!
If you or anyone as a reader cannot determine the meaning of someone's words within the context in which they are used, it is they with the problem.
What a pack of stupid little pricks exists at slashdot and elsewhere online, if the best they have to offer is spelling and grammar checking.
I also wonder how many of these alleged 'experts in english' possess a phd in English? None, I strongly wager. They are just lamo assholes.
But is your program selling in a market worth hundreds of billions - or is it selling in a market worth hundreds of thousands?
How much has Sun spent on Star Office and OpenOffice.org?
Have the kind of money it takes to compete in that arena? If the answer is no, then it doesn't matter how big the pot of gold lies at rainbow's end. You'll never see a dime of it.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
See http://digitalmars.com/d
and http://dgcc.sf.net/
jni is how you can make non cross platform code using java.