US Expands Airport Biometric Data Collection

athloi sends word of an expansion of the US-VISIT program that now requires two fingerprints from foreign visitors arriving at scores of airports. Beginning later this year the US will be testing a system that collects 10 digital fingerprints, at 10 major points of entry. A US Homeland Security director assured EU officials that the program would operate under strict privacy rules. But he noted that the FBI and CIA will have access to the biometric data, which over time may expand beyond fingerprints.

Comments

"Points of entry"?

[sczimme]

Beginning later this year the US will be testing a system that collects 10 digital fingerprints, at 10 major points of entry.

That sounds painful... Eeek.

Re:"Points of entry"?

[winkydink]

I know... I can figure out 7 of them pretty quickly, but the other 3???????

Re:"Points of entry"?

[chrisb33]

Agreed - I didn't even think that I HAD 10 major points of entry.

Re:"Points of entry"?

[rts008]

After DHS gets done with you, only 10 major points of entry will seem like a good thing.

After going through 'Security', you will leak like a sieve. But after that first deflowering, it shouldn't be that bad the next time.

But you'll never be able to fly Virgin Airways again.

Re:"Points of entry"?

[Sponge Bath]

If I remember correctly from the original Matrix movie,
the belly button is an option.

But in that case I guess the 'subject' lost another point of entry.

Re:"Points of entry"?

[Achromatic1978]

Let's try:

1. Los Angeles
2. San Francisco
3. Chicago
4. New York
5. Atlanta
6. Dallas / Fort Worth
7. Houston
8. Phoenix
9. Newark
10. St Louis

(in no particular order) ... Comments?

Re:"Points of entry"?

[fbjon]

I think you misunderstood:

1. Anus
2. Urethra
3. Right ear
4. Left ear
5. Mouth
6. Right tear canal
7. Left tear canal
8. Right nostril
9. Left nostril
10. Brain access hole

You don't have a brain access hole? Don't worry, trepanation will soon be required for entry at US airports.

Vagina not on the list of major ports of entry? That would be sexual harassment, someone might get upset!

Re:"Points of entry"?

[winkydink]

tear canal? jeez, why not go down to pores in the skin? :)

Re:"Points of entry"?

[dazlari]

Honolulu Hawaii is a major access to those crossing the Pacific and then on to the mainland which includes Canada. Strangely, just entering the air space of the US warrants data capture. I guess you could cross the border more easily once in Candada. I just wanted to Ski Banff.

I'd put Miami on that list as well, a major gates to Europe, and potentially Seattle from Asia. I'm not that familiar with much else, but at a guess these could take out 6,7,or 8 on your list.

Re:"Points of entry"?

[Achromatic1978]

Miami could be on it, possibly Seattle (but I don't think so, living in Seattle - though it'd be close, definitely top 20).

Re:"Points of entry"?

[thatnerdguy]

Luckily, Canada will soon have a direct flight from Vancouver to Sydney that won't have to stop in Honolulu.

Re:"Points of entry"?

[jez9999]

You forgot a rather... obvious one, I believe. Try thinking about the opposite gender. They you could remove the silly brain access hole.

Re:"Points of entry"?

[fbjon]

You forgot to read to the end of the post.

It doesn't help even on airports

[Anonymous Coward]

Suicide bombers don't care if you take their fingerprints or not. This is just means to get rid of people with liberal thoughts. And to create a false sense of security for the Sheep.

Re:It doesn't help even on airports

[Potor]

When I discovered I could no longer use non-approved locks on my luggage while transiting through the USA, I decided never to fly there again. I am sure nobody cares, but that's my decision.

Re:It doesn't help even on airports

[Beretta Vexe]

Recidivist suicide bomber, for your travel to USA make the good chose ! Chose boat !

Re:It doesn't help even on airports

[Fuzzums]

I'm afraid you're not the only one thinking like that. Tourism is down 15% compared to the rest of the world.

You do the math.
Oh. You already did ;)

Middle finger

[ElGanzoLoco]

Me, I think I'll just show them my middle finger(print). Twice, if they want, or as many times as they like, as a matter of fact :D

Re:Middle finger

[castrox]

Well hellooo Guantanamo!

If I lived abroad,

[cromar]

I would seriously consider never coming to the USA again. It's not that I have a huge concern with collecting information about non-citizen civilians, but that I would not trust DHS in any way, especially when it comes to technology. But hey, at least the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Government Oversight game them a security grade of "D" this year. That's better than an "F" anyway :(

~cromar

Re:If I lived abroad,

[VJ42]

I would seriously consider never coming to the USA again. I don't live in the USA, and have already come to the conclusion that I'm not going to visit*. My tourist ££s will go to France, Italy, Spain, Thailand etc. instead. The USA needs tourism; tourists don't need the USA, there's a big wide world that's not the USA still to visit. So, to the US govermet I say this: "it's your loss".

*I've been before, but before all this "security" and I would dearly love to visit again.

Re:If I lived abroad,

[Sponge Bath]

With the dollar in free fall against other currencies the US is a great deal.
Isn't that worth a wild ride on the DHS probulator?

Re:If I lived abroad,

[KlaymenDK]

Oh, trust me: I have, and I won't.

I mean, I'm all for travelling and seeing the world, but with all the changes we've read about the last couple of years, it's just not worth it. Or to put it rather more plainly: Fuck'em, I'm not that interested in seeing the Land of Opportunity anyway.

Hm.

Re:If I lived abroad,

[Fred_A]

I don't live in the USA, and have already come to the conclusion that I'm not going to visit*. My tourist ££s will go to France, Italy, Spain, Thailand etc. instead. The USA needs tourism; tourists don't need the USA, there's a big wide world that's not the USA still to visit. So, to the US government I say this: "it's your loss".

As far as I can tell, more or less 3 out of 4 of my fellow Europeans feel that way. I went to the US before, found that it had some gorgeous scenery, lots of nice people (and quite a few weird ones, but I guess that's part of the charm of the country, sortof), but no longer. Especially while carrying a French passport, I'm not going to subject myself to the antics of room temperature IQ security goons (and that's in Celsius, thank you very much).

I even avoid long flights that have a connection there, simply because a lot of euro travellers I know have been hassled by the security drones to the point of missing their flight.

I'll probably reconsider in a few years when this lunacy is behind us, but for now, South America, the rest of Europe, Asia, the Pacific and Africa offer lots of travel opportunities for me (except that for some reason I still regularly have to point out that I'm not from the US in a lot of places before people get friendly, comes with English still being the world's ligua franca).

Quite sad really.

Re:If I lived abroad,

[frisket]

They've been doing this for at least a year at Dublin and Shannon (where you do US Immigration before you leave Ireland).

Re:If I lived abroad,

[BlackSmithNZ]

I have come to the same sort of conclusion.

I have never been fingerprinted before in my life; and the only thing I associate with fingerprinting is somebody being arrested in a police station.

If I have to travel to the US for business; I can live with it - I hopefully won't get sent off to somewhere 3rd world for a few years for holding an anti-bush political stance (at least not yet).

But if I am choosing a destination to travel to for a holiday, or even as a stop over on the way to Europe from NZ (i.e. not even entering the US), I don't want my kids marched off a plane, fingerprinted and photographed by some foreign power for stupid paranoid reasons. Would a US citizen want their kids treated like that by say Russian government agents if they were travelling to Asia?

Question is, while my 6 yr old daughter could be a terrorist threat or a drug dealer, so could any random American citizen. So how long before Bush admin starts thinking that taking 10 fingerprints and DNA samples from all American citizens is a good idea? My guess is that little project is already well under way.

So its probably no big deal to the US - I am just one individual not passing though the US lightly, but don't be surprised that in the future people like my kids have increasing apathy and even dislike of the US. When I was a young kid, I and my school friends all wanted to go to the US and Disneyland; as a sign of the times, my kids are now more keen to go to Paris.

Re:If I lived abroad,

[ladislavb]

I completely agree. If somebody offered me a choice between a free holiday in Iraq and a free holiday in the USA, I'd have hard time to decide which one I should choose. It's really sad, because I've many "cyberfriends" in the US whom I'd like to meet some day, but there is just no way I am going to subject myself to these ridiculous procedures.

And it's not just the entry to the US. Even traveling on an US airline is painful nowadays - I noticed last time I was at the Taipei airport how the passengers on a US-bound flight had to arrive much earlier than those on other flights, how they had to stand in a long long queue, how they had to remove their shoes, how they.... So last month when my wife booked a flight from Taipei to Tokyo on an United Airlines flight, I canceled it as soon as I learned about it. Instead, I paid $50 more to get a ticket with a non-US airline.

USA is no doubt a very beautiful country which I'd love to visit. Unfortunately, with the way things are going over there, I doubt I'll ever will.

Re:If I lived abroad,

[caridon20]

Sorry but removing the foreign turists wont help.

They are the thin ones.

The fat ones that block your wiew are texans :)

Re:If I lived abroad,

[Yvanhoe]

Well, I'm considering going there quickly before it becomes worse !

Re:If I lived abroad,

[VJ42]

Nope, that's what internet shopping is for. ;p

Re:If I lived abroad,

[tcoder70]

Consider ??? I already don't visit the US unless absolutely, extremely, very, necessary and only after my boss has asked 5 times for the date of travel. As for personal visits...perish the thought. Why ? The VISIT program is nothing compared the NSEER that i have to go through! even though i AM an Canadian Citizen.

Strict Privacy Rules

[Arclight17]

Are these the strict privacy rules like the ones in the Valerie Plame case? Or the ones currently surrounding the office of the (non-executive) VP?

But seriously, if this could link into INTERPOL & other databases of fingerprints, this might actually be helpful for those who end up in those 10 ports of entry

Re:Strict Privacy Rules

[PhxBlue]

Contrary to some asshat mod's assertion, the schmucks in the White House have everything to do with this discussion. Think about it: The government wants to track our every move we make within and outside our country's border but doesn't believe they should be accountable to us?

A giant, red, glow-in-the-dark What the Fuck goes out to our government for this one.

Re:Strict Privacy Rules

[JohnBailey]

Assuming:-

A) The fingerprints are taken properly.

B) The Fingerprints are carefully examined to make sure it is the actual fingerprint and not a similar one.

C) The fingerprints being flagged are the ones that correspond to actual dangerous people, not protesters or other people who peacefully reject the actions of their or other governments.

D) The computer system doesn't have some almighty foul up which gives false positives and ends up having an innocent traveler locked up just to be on the safe side.

E) The fingerprint on record was taken as part of a crime scene sweep when someone was arrested, and put on the system just in case. Even though the print could belong to someone completely innocent.

In isolation a finger print means very little. Where and when it was obtained gives it context.

Re:Strict Privacy Rules

[Znork]

F) The bad guys dont figure out they can utterly compromise the value of fingerprint and DNA data by proactively contaminating any scenes with false imprints and cells.

G) The enforcement types figure out that there really wasnt twohundredthousand people in that room, someone merely gathered the vacuum cleaner bags from a hotel or a sports event and ran them on reverse, so perhaps the crowd they rounded up and sent to the new Gulags werent all guilty.

Wearing gloves and a hairnet when out in public is starting to seem like reasonable security precautions (in fact, full body latex suits and breathing masks seem to be the only way you can be sure you're not recklessly spreading your 'identity' around). You never know who's going to be collecting your biometric identification data and placing it somewhere it shouldnt be.

Re:that's nice...

[chris09876]

I think they're just trying this out as a "more thorough" program:

From the article:

The current two-fingerprint arrival system is being used in 115 airports, 15 seaports and 154 land border checks. About 100 million fingerprints have been taken so far, and more than 34,000 people whose names showed up on U.S. watch lists were denied entry, Wright said.

They'll probably expand the program later on. Yes, I don't see the value either...

All the security is for nothing

[ajenteks]

It's really great that our airports are going to be secured against foreign visitors, but, as Andrew Stranger proved, we can't keep anyone with half a brain out of this country as our current security system exists, beefed up airports or not.

For anyone interested, this is great reading:
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html ?id=065183f1-4240-407d-b27b-afc67a34cbf8&k=51026

Re:All the security is for nothing

[pclminion]

What I don't understand is how ANY sort of flying restriction is going to stop a determined attacker. What's to stop somebody from landing (a watercraft) somewhere along the enormous coastline of Hudson's Bay, and simply hoofing it through the Canadian wilderness to the US border and just walking into the country? If you're intent on blowing yourself up surely a little hiking isn't going to be a huge deterrent. And you get to see some beautiful country before you off yourself.

Re:All the security is for nothing

[ajenteks]

Absolutely. This security stuff is all a very expensive dog and pony show that makes small-minded people feel safe.

Re:All the security is for nothing

[trolltalk.com]

"What's to stop somebody from landing (a watercraft) somewhere along the enormous coastline of Hudson's Bay, and simply hoofing it through the Canadian wilderness"

Two words - Deer Flies.

They BITE! And when they bite, they also take a chunk of meat out of you.

Multiply that by a few hundred times an hour, for weeks on end. You'll be happy to turn yourself in to the nearest cop, if you haven't killed yourself first.

Re:All the security is for nothing

[unlametheweak]

I could presume that the point of these no-fly rules is to prevent people from hi-jacking airplanes. People could still legally enter the US by train, boat, car, foot etc. If the US customs officials on 9/11 checked for box cutters, suspicious behavior, and yes the no-fly list; 9/11 probably wouldn't have happened. No bio-metric tests needed with adequate common-sense security.

Re:All the security is for nothing

[unlametheweak]

Correction, when referring to 9/11 I should have said government "watch list", and not "no-fly list".

Re:All the security is for nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

"What's to stop somebody from landing (a watercraft) somewhere along the enormous coastline of Hudson's Bay, and simply hoofing it through the Canadian wilderness"

Two words - Deer Flies.

They BITE! And when they bite, they also take a chunk of meat out of you.

Multiply that by a few hundred times an hour, for weeks on end. You'll be happy to turn yourself in to the nearest cop, if you haven't killed yourself first.

That's not a problem if they're on the no fly list!

Re:All the security is for nothing

[Kadin2048]

If they'd checked for box cutters, the terrorists wouldn't have used box cutters.

You can kill someone stone dead in a few seconds with a bath towel, you know. Or with a pair of pantyhose and a can of soda. Or god knows what else.

The point is, short of stripping everyone naked and zip-tying them into their seats, you can't keep someone from attacking the crew on a plane. You might be able to stop them from taking control of it by reinforcing the cockpit, maybe building the aircraft without an interior door, etc., and you might be able to keep them from using the plane as a flying bomb by building in a fail-safe (or a remote self-destruct), but the restrictions on pocketknives, toothpaste, nail clippers, scissors, and the like are just security theater.

(Probably the best security method would be to give everyone on the plane some type of very-close-range weapon that was easy to use, so that a possible terrorist would have as little advantage as possible over the rest of the passengers. There's an implicit assumption that the majority of passengers are not terrorists, so what you need to do is just keep the terrorists from getting the edge that makes them more powerful than 100 others, not try to disarm everyone completely.)

Re:All the security is for nothing

[2short]

"If the US customs officials on 9/11 checked for box cutters, suspicious behavior, and yes the no-fly list; 9/11 probably wouldn't have happened."

-The 9/11 hijackers did not pass through customs that day.
-They obtained at least some of their box-cutters after going through security.
-I can't imagine they behaved "suspiciously" in any way that thousands of innocent people don't also behave every day.
-One of them was on a government watch list, but this list was not, and is not, provided to airport personel. The no-fly list is too widely distributed to include classified information like the names of active terrorist suspects. It does (today) include the names of several of the (dead) hijackers.

So, no, none of the things you mention would have prevented 9/11, even if the terrorists had for some bizarre reason used the same plan after we implemented "security" measures specifically directed at that plan, which obviously they would not have.

"No bio-metric tests needed with adequate common-sense security."
Absolutely agree. But there is nothing you're going to do at the airport to screen hundreds of thousands of people a day that will successfully identify the handful per decade you need to catch.

Re:All the security is for nothing

[Wobble-U]

When I go through anything where I *could* be falsely accused, I look and feel really nervous. I wouldn't trust myself to stay calm going through US customs :-P

Re:All the security is for nothing

[IgnoramusMaximus]

Probably the best security method would be to give everyone on the plane some type of very-close-range weapon that was easy to use, so that a possible terrorist would have as little advantage as possible over the rest of the passengers.

Oh I can just see that one in action: 10-year old kids with Tazers vs. drunk businessmen with Tazers vs. the Moms of the 10-year-olds with Tazers vs Sado-Masochists with Tazers vs ... everyone else. The last one standing wins!

Re:that's nice...

[metamatic]

It accomplishes even less than that. All the 9/11 terrorists had valid ID and weren't on watch lists.

Re:Making a good impression

[fred fleenblat]

I was going to suggest that since most terrorists are male, we simply request vaginaprints. If you cannot produce a valid vaginaprint you cannot get on the plane or enter the country.

Problem solved!

Beyond fingerprint

[aepervius]

quote : "which over time may expand beyond fingerprints." What do they want in addition ? A retina scan ? a DNA sample ? WHAT FOR ?!?!? And why in the ninth hell, WE (the rest of the world) are not forcing the US to eat their own fudge at our frontier ? I find Brasil example to be a good one.

Re:Beyond fingerprint

[cromar]

YOU definitely should. Not that I don't love America, or at least what it's supposed to stand for, but fucking Christ this shit is getting ridiculous.

To which Brazil example do you refer?

Re:Beyond fingerprint

[Anonymous Coward]

Another example is Russia. When the US introduced the form DS-157 form for visa applications few years ago, Russia created their own form for the USA citizens only that mirrors DS-157. So now Americans who want to visit Russia have to answers lots of questions like their last employments including addresses and supervisors names, military ranks, occupation and dates of service, all professional, charity and civil organizations they have ever been associated with, and so on.

Re:Beyond fingerprint

[mdwh2]

And why in the ninth hell, WE (the rest of the world) are not forcing the US to eat their own fudge at our frontier ?

It sounds a nice idea, but that just harms citizens of both countries.

And I suspect that the Governments would actually like this to happen - the usual trick is that each country takes fingerprints on the other country's citizens, and then - they swap the information! Thus conveniently getting a fingerprint database of their own citizens, which would be much harder to do otherwise.

A much better protest would be to do this specifically for US politicians. Along with retina scans, taking DNA, and of course, strip search and thorough body search. They've got nothing to hide, right?

Re:Beyond fingerprint

[Ihlosi]

What do they want in addition ? A retina scan ? a DNA sample ?

Yup yup. Don't forget dental prints, footprints, voice prints, skin maps, body scent samples, hair samples, fingernail samples, etc.

Re:Beyond fingerprint

[SLi]

And why in the ninth hell, WE (the rest of the world) are not forcing the US to eat their own fudge at our frontier?

Some are, like Brazil, IIRC. However as an European I'd prefer EU countries to not do that. If you think there are no freedoms in China, do you retaliate by not giving any freedom to Chinese tourists? Plus it hurts tourism, as a not insignificant side point, so let the countries like US and China deter tourism if they want. We don't need to do the same.

Re:Beyond fingerprint

[Ihlosi]

If you think there are no freedoms in China, do you retaliate by not giving any freedom to Chinese tourists?

No. But then again, the Chinese didn't vote themselves into that situation.

As a Canadian...

[Zalgon 26 McGee]

It's nice to be overlooked at times like this.

Since US Customs agents are in most major Canadian airports, we're pre-screened and don't come through "international" arrival gates... so anyone boarding in Canada won't get checked.

Great job, security folks...

Re:As a Canadian...

[Anonymous Coward]

When was the last time you flew from Canada to the US? When I did a couple of weeks ago from Montreal, I got fingerprinted by the DHS before boarding the plane -- US Customs being in the Canadian airport side doesn't mean they don't use the same customs procedure as the regular border checkpoints.

What the fuck?

[khasim]

About 100 million fingerprints have been taken so far, and more than 34,000 people whose names showed up on U.S. watch lists were denied entry, Wright said.

If they're dangerous enough to be on a "watch list" why aren't we arresting them when we catch them?

Oh, too dangerous to be allowed in ... but not dangerous enough to arrest.

You've been rejected at this border point. Please try another border point for entry.

Re:What the fuck?

[incer]

They're on the WATCH list, not on the WANTED list.

And this wil help how?

[janrinok]

I'm sure that there are few on this thread that believe that this will help defeat terrorism. And I don't suppose it will improve the tourist trade very much either. I'm glad that America is the home of the brave; I cannot imagine what they might do if they were frightened...

Re:And this wil help how?

[bwcbwc]

As bogus as I think the neo-fascist anti-terrorism measures are, there is a plausible rationale to all this. As usual they're trying to fight the last war. All of the 9/11 terrorists entered the US legally on student or tourist visas. These measures are simply designed to aid DHS in identifying people who overstay their visa, and if a new terrorist act does occur, aid in identifying the movements of the perpetrators. It's also designed to tie in with the new biometric passport requirements so that they have the right to gather the data needed to validate that the person entering actually has the biometrics presented in the passport.

The question is whether this benefit justifies the ever more intrusive methods of data gathering. I would think that a couple of fingerprints on each visit (say they could be randomly selected by the DHS agent), or an alternative method would be sufficient. I mean Disney World uses 2-fingerprint scans to validate the identification of multi-day passholders, and they process people through their entry very quickly. So the fingerprinting process COULD be done in an unobtrusive manner. I'm not laying any bets that DHS'll opt for this method, though.

If they ever did deploy it at all airports

[Ungrounded Lightning]

If they ever did deploy it at all airports, seaports, and road border checkpoints, any terrorists on the watch list would just hire a "coyote" and be escorted across the southern border.

2010 press release

[EmbeddedJanitor]

Foreign nationals will be required to fit a GPS tracking collar to their necks at points of entry...

Deduction Watson!

[SuperCharlie]

Since the terrorists wont be stupid enough to be fingerprinted, once we have everyone's fingerprints, those that are left MUST be the enemy! Brilliant!

Finger prints are old hat

[Clockwork Apple]

What we need is biometric genetal scanning. At least then we would have something interesting to look at/avert your eyes from, while waiting to be humiliated ourselves.

Re:Finger prints are old hat

[pedrop357]

Rectal scans? I heard somewhere that mouth prints are as unique as fingerprints. Sadly enough, my mind is now wondering if anal prints are similarly unique. At the same time, I'm more happily wondering if vaginal lip prints are unique as well...

Hidden Costs

[RManning]

I work for a very large multi-national company. Not long ago I sat through a talk that was given by the head of our European operations. He said that US airport security is getting so bad that people outside the US are avoiding coming here at all costs! Apparently, we're losing some serious business and tourism money, just because of our bone-headed "security" rules.

Ten fingerprints? I know I wouldn't travel anywhere where one was required!

Anyway, it's just something to think about.

Re:Hidden Costs

[kebes]

Indeed. Businesses will lose out because international partners won't be as interested (or able) to fly to the States for face-to-face meetings.

In my field, research science, the effects of the strict US rules are very apparent. Foreign scientists are having a harder and harder time coming to the US to study, collaborate, or even go to a conference. Scientists are being denied visas or putting on long waiting lists (so that they miss the conference!). The end result is a decrease in the amount of scientific collaborations between US groups and those outside the US, and more emphasis being put on non-US conferences (in Europe, Canada, Japan, etc.).

This is having a real (though difficult to measure) impact on US science. In a subtle way, there is a decrease in the flow of "advanced technical knowledge" into the US, which is to the detriment of US labs. Through these border policies, the US is isolating itself. Since ultimately science and technology are big drivers of the US economy, I see this as a very poor choice on the part of the US administration.

Re:Hidden Costs

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

<Obligatory trollish note> Given that a scarily high proportion of people in the US seem to think Intelligent Design is science, and three presidential candidates said on the record that they do not believe in evolution, I doubt these people have even noticed the decline in scientific advance, never mind questioned why it might be happening. </Obligatory trollish note>

Re:Hidden Costs

[cliffski]

The US is certainly losing my tourist money since they went all heavy on security. When people are on holiday, they really resent being fingerprinted, it seriously damages the mood. Since I stopped visiting the US, I've spent holidays in Canada, the Caribbean, south America and Scotland. And some of that money really should have gone to the US. I like your country, I got married there, I consider Las Vegas one of the best places I've ever visited, and my wife adores Yosemite. I just don't want to be treated like a terrorist on holiday.
I don't understand why the US tourist industry doesn't speak out against this nonsense? Are they not annoyed at having their industry targeted? or is it their business boosted by paranoid citizens refusing to leave the country for holidays?

Re:Hidden Costs

[aztec rain god]

Perhaps that's a feature, not a bug.

Re:Hidden Costs

[vidarh]

Try going to a better quality US restaurant next time. Americans are as diverse as everyone else, and the "obnoxious US tourist" stereotype has developed because it's the loud, brash, annoying ones we notice. I've been to the US about ten times over the last 18 months, and eaten out several days a week while there, and frankly I've yet to come across anyone being "loud at mealtimes". But then I don't eat at the kind of crappy places where uncivilized annoying people are likely to gather.

Not that I don't have lots of things against the US government, but I know enough Americans to not blame all of them for that.

Re:Hidden Costs

[lawpoop]

I never understood the hatred for the French. Well, I do. It's the WWII generation ( the "Greatest Generation" ) how thought the French caved to easily to Nazi Germany, forcing using to save the world, yet again.

But the French funded our revolution. We fought two wars against the British, the war for Independence and the War of 1812, in which the British stormed Washington DC and burned the White House. Our founders seriously considered making French the official language for government affairs.

But I guess the ties of common language and more shared culture, such as food, created such a divide that we just couldn't relate to French culture and mentality. A lot more Americans have English, Irish, and Scott ancestry than they do French.

Re:Hidden Costs

[unlametheweak]

I think it would be prudent not to pigeon-hole a "typical American" seeing as how culturally diverse America is. I think it is too easy to stereo-type based on what we see on TV and witness from the power elites in America, but reality is usually more complex. I certainly couldn't imagine the cmdrTaco as being your "typical American" for example.

In Canada it is a stereo-type that Canadians are nice, and Americans are rude, yet I remember hearing on the news (a year or two ago) a study done that shows Canadians are just as rude as Americans. Go figure. Yes Freedom Fries and the other stunts are really stupid, but I'm sure Europeans and other people say stupid things too. I guess I'm being politically incorrect again, so be it. You aint ganna persuade your average American to listen to you my calling him a jack-ass.

Re:Hidden Costs

[unlametheweak]

Apparently they are listening. But seems like the tourist problem is not just about finger printing though. From the article http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/1106/112006j1.htm

several airlines have approached the Homeland Security Department, the State Department and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce about providing "hospitality training" for federal security workers, Freeman said.

Also:

A 17 percent decrease in overseas visitors to the United States since Sept. 11, 2001, is partially a result of "rude and arrogant" treatment by airport security employees, said Geoff Freeman, executive director of the Discover America Partnership, a group of businesses promoting travel. The partnership, with the assistance of RT Strategies, a public affairs opinion research and polling organization, published a report based on a survey of more than 2,000 travelers to the United States and other nations.

A third of respondents said immigration officials were so abrasive that they do not plan to return. More than half of respondents said they were concerned about a terrorist attack or crime and safety issues when they visited the United States. But even more -- 70 percent -- said they were worried that "legal and security issues" and treatment of visitors, would mar their stay.

Re:Hidden Costs

[kocsonya]

> Foreign scientists are having a harder and harder time coming to the US to study, collaborate, or even go to a conference. Scientists are being denied visas or putting on long waiting lists (so that they miss the conference!).

Or they simply decide that they do not wish to be treated like a common criminal by some fistbrained thug and just do not go there.

Past doesn't inspire confidence...

[Anonymous Coward]

"A US Homeland Security director assured EU officials that the program would operate under strict privacy rules. But he noted that the FBI and CIA will have access to the biometric data, which over time may expand beyond fingerprints."

As past events have shown, the innocent have plenty to fear from this, even if they have nothing to hide.

False positives could really ruin your day.

On the other hand, if it were to happen, once a false positive ordeal is over, I suppose it could be rather lucrative, given the precident that has been set.

And this guy was a U.S. citizen. Imagine the result if you were a citizen of another country and subject to the same sort of mistake.

Re:Past doesn't inspire confidence...

[Fred_A]

On the other hand, if it were to happen, once a false positive ordeal is over, I suppose it could be rather lucrative, given the precident that has been set.

And this guy was a U.S. citizen. Imagine the result if you were a citizen of another country and subject to the same sort of mistake.

Had he been a citizen of another country, he'd still be in a cell somewhere.

Options:

[trolltalk.com]

[_] "You can have my fingerprints when you pry them from my cold dead hands!"

[_] "I don't have any fingers, you insensitive clod."

[_] "Fingerprints? I'll give you the finger, all right ..."

[_] (prominently displaying copy of Hustler) "You really want to take my fingerprints? Do you know where my hands have just been?"

[_] "A...CHOO! Oops - do you have a hanky? The kids ain't gonna believe the size of this greener ..."

... etc ...

All this means is more people avoiding the US rather than submit to being treated like criminals unless proven otherwise.

Re:Options:

[Archon-X]

I would have also accepted:
Don't you worry about fingerprints! Let ME worry about fingerprints!

Or

Fingerprints? FINGERPRINTS?!

Ten Fingers is a Joke

[asphaltjesus]

A PHB probably said "Three fingers? Why only three fingers? Ten. Ten is better, it's more than three after all."

The system might be able to save 10 prints, but you only need 1 or 2 at most.

A couple of FYI's.
1. It's unlikely they'll store fingerprints. They typically store some kind of proprietary hash value of the fingerprint.
2. It's unlikely they'll make the authentication available to other agencies.
3. Interoperability with other countries is desired, but not likely as each system vendor makes certain that won't actually occur.
4. I will be very interested to find out if they actually get to a point where there are fingerprint readers in airports more than a couple of airports. The scale of the operation overwhelms current technology pretty quickly.

The time to be worried was long, long ago as most of your data has been collected by private agencies and sold to the government for decades now.

Re:Ten Fingers is a Joke

[lawpoop]

1. It's unlikely they'll store fingerprints. They typically store some kind of proprietary hash value of the fingerprint. Don't you have to have identical scans of fingerprints, and I mean identical down to each and every pixel, to have a match of two different hashes of the same fingerprint? Unless you are somehow hashing properties of the fingerprint image itself, such as the relative position of loops and whorls, rather than a hash of the binary data of the image.

Isn't matching fingerprints a hard AI problem? In order to match finger prints with a program, you would have to have the full image, I would thing. And even then I think it would be prone to a high false negative rate. So the fall-back is to traditional fingerprint matching techniques, which AFAIK, is done with the human brain and it's amazing fuzzy matching capabilities. I think with current algorithms it is near impossible to get a high positive match rate of two different scans of the same print.

Re:Ten Fingers is a Joke

[jimicus]

Isn't matching fingerprints a hard AI problem

Yes. That's why machines tend to have very poor accuracy rates, and the end result always has to be checked by an expert.

That's easy to do when you're dealing with a clear-cut, small crime scene, you've narrowed the perpetrator down to a few dozen suspects and they're likely to be still alive. None of those apply to a major terrorist attack.

I'd beg to differ

[everphilski]

US's tourism accounts for 0.9% of GDP... that's nothing compared to china (5.4%), New Zealand (10%), Italy (12%), even Canada (2.5%) ... get the point? It is insignificant to the US, but critical to many other areas of the world ...

Re:I'd beg to differ

[pclminion]

I get your point, but that still amounts to about $118 billion, which is hardly a drop in the bucket, its relative value to GDP notwithstanding.

Re:I'd beg to differ

[DavidpFitz]

US's tourism accounts for 0.9% of GDP... that's nothing compared to china (5.4%), New Zealand (10%), Italy (12%), even Canada (2.5%) ... get the point? It is insignificant to the US, but critical to many other areas of the world ...

I get the point, alright. It seems the rest of the world are more interested in visiting places other than the USA!

Oh, and PS. It's not insignificant. ~1% of direct GDP accounts for a hell of a lot of indirect employment. Many, many people in your country would be up the creek without the proverbial paddle, claiming jobless assistance and generally severely weakening your economy in a quite short time.

Re:I'd beg to differ

[presarioD]

And then there will be a mysterious drop in the foreign students/researchers numbers willing to go free fingering procedures/harassment and a slight panic attack when graduate programs dry up from this absolutely necessary foreign brain power, but at that point it will be a bit too late to reverse the tide and reexamine the procedures. The panic attack will eventually subside simultaneously washing away the basic notion that people want to come to the US because "well, naturally, we are the greatest nation on the galaxy and for that reason alone".

Finally US will be a fortress, no barbarians ad portas, DHS employees scratching themselves all day wondering where did the people go, while the rest of the world will be riding the cutting-edge wave of technology/R&D/innovation with the newly absorbed and relocated brain-power arriving at their coffers.

Hmmmmm, immigration's and history's perfect revenge, I like it...

I wonder what part of GDP that amounts to...probably priceless?

Re:I'd beg to differ

[Richard_J_N]

Since the fingerprinting began, none of my family has visited the USA. We probably never will again. Which is a shame, since we used to come to Orlando and to ski in Denver - and we probably spent $50+k in Europe that would have gone to the USA over the last 5 years. As far as I'm concerned, I'll come back to the USA when they prove (a)that they actually want to welcome us as guests, and (b)when the USA starts to believe in its own principles again. For now, the US have a *lot* to answer for, and unfortunately, many of our British politicians are catching the same security-at-any-price disease.

Re:I'd beg to differ

[node159]

1% of the GDP, translated into % of employment may be quite significant in regards to job losses and a rais in unemployment. Especially when taking GDP distribution amongst the job market and population (for the thick skulled, this means the less the pay, the higher the unemployment stats will be).

Re:I'd beg to differ

[1110110001]

If other do what I did, visit Canada instead of USA, they may have 3.0% or more very soon. Some people from Finland I met while visiting the Niagara Falls did the same, so it's not that uncommon for Europeans.

IMO the EU shouldn't be afraid of US politics and do the same to tourist from the US in our countries. Maybe this will teach the US how bad it is and how uncomfortable people feel being fingerprinted and storing (forever) as much of their personal data as possible.

Re:I'd beg to differ

[Slashdot Parent]

Don't forget, that's domestic and foreign tourism.

Most US citizens travel, just not abroad. Most US tourism dollars are spent by domestic tourists.

Re:I'd beg to differ

[Slashdot Parent]

Which is a shame, since we used to come to Orlando and to ski in Denver You go to Disney and ski in Denver? I wasn't aware that Denver had any place to ski.

So go to EuroDisney. The money still comes back to the motherland, anyhow. :P

Re:I'd beg to differ

[Richard_J_N]

By Denver, I of course meant Vail/Beaver Creek - which does have excellent skiing. As for Disney, we're a little old for it now, and I tend to have other issues with them, due to the fact that Disney have been the prime movers in copyright extension ("we want to own the mouse forever, but we'll still borrow what we like from the Brothers Grimm.")

Re:Making a good impression

[scooter.higher]

Click on the link for "Vaginal Print Collector (Special Agent)" here:

http://www.ice.gov/careers/index.htm

True,

[Anonymous Coward]

I quit my job to avoid traveling to US at the moment. Decided to save the space for terrorists on trans-atlantic flights ;)

I feel so welcome ...

[Ihlosi]

... just like it was going to the good ol' German Democratic Republic. Nothing like getting some special attention from a "security" agency when entering the country.

If it wasn't for my in-laws, I'd be spending my vacations in more welcoming places, but I just have no choice.

Re:I feel so welcome ...

[Dunbal]

Nothing like getting some special attention from a "security" agency when entering the country.

      Thats ok. The US dollar is sinking, the US economy is stagnating, the US government thinks it can talk tough and fight wars on concepts with no consequences. Wait. The reckoning is coming soon. All the money is leaving the US, since the real growth is happening in Russia, India and Asia.

      But look on the bright side - when the US is no longer a world leader, I guess no one will want to target it anymore.

Re:I feel so welcome ...

[Ihlosi]

I've been to the German Democratic Republic (and other eastern countries), and nobody wanted my fingerprints.

At least they were discreet about it. If they wanted your fingerprints, you wouldn't really notice.

They did let your passport disappear for a few minutes (while you were driving between two booths only about 100m apart - of course, the line of cars was moving slowly because of the coffee break you mentioned), probably to take some good copies of it. Today, thanks to RFID chips, the same can be done without your passport ever leaving your possession.

And the strange thing is...

[msauve]

while we're busy trying to keep out the tourists and business people, we're also trying to pass laws which allow those who entered illegally to stay!

New Colossus v2.0 -- Even Newer

[StikyPad]

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
Oh wait, no fingers!?! GTF outta here..
No really, get out.

Re:New Colossus v2.0 -- Even Newer

[Ihlosi]

Give me your tired, your poor,

"Give me your fingers."
Yeah, here's both of them.

Re:All the security is a drain.

[scooter.higher]

How so? If "bad guy" show up at a U.S. Customs checkpoint in an U.S. airport, and is denied entry, wouldn't he have to take another flight immediately to somewhere else, or back home?

Would this flight be cheap? Most likely not.

If "bad guy" already had a round trip ticket, would the airline make him pay a "change fee" to immediately reschedule his flight? Most likely.

Affect the bottom line of the airline? Doesn't look like it.

Does Bush hate the tourist industry?

[Presto Vivace]

Really, how many international assocications are holding their meetings anywhere but the US precisely because of this nonsense?

Fear and weakness.

[steelneck]

All foreigners are treated as criminals - talk about a psycological weak nation in fear. Like a bodybuilder who has taken too many steriods and are affraid of anything, seeing ghosts everywere and in the end making him his own enemy. "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists", well that is a strange view on opposition coming from someone who belive he is defending democracy.. Why on earth do someone want to visit such a country?

Re:Fear and weakness.

[Dunbal]

I forget who it was that wrote the prophetic words:

      "One does not speak so much of freedom as in a place where it has ceased to exist"

So good, it had to be repeated

[Presto Vivace]

It accomplishes even less than that. All the 9/11 terrorists had valid ID and weren't on watch lists.

reason for the move to 10 fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

"Chertoff's plan to convert U.S. Visit to the [10 finger] standard comes after months of criticism from Congress, federal agencies and the media about incompatibilities between U.S. Visit's two fingerprints and the FBI's IAFIS criminal database, which uses 10 prints."

http://www.washingtontechnology.com/print/20_15/26 672-1.html

Re:that's nice...

[RainierSnow]

Sorry, not all. In August, 2001 Nawaf Alhazmi and Khalid Almidhar bought tickets on Amaerican Flight 77 (which flew into the Pentagon) using their real names. At the time, both were on a State Department/INS watch list called TIPOFF. Both were being sought by the FBI and CIA as suspected terrorists because they had been observed at a terrorist meeting in Malaysia. (Info taken from The Assault on Reason by Al Gore).

Re:that's nice...

[avronius]

.034% of people trying to enter the US have been identified as being on a watch list.

Why stop at finger printing people entering the US? Start grabbing this information as people *leave* the US. Then, to make the process easier, just tatoo everyone with a number on their forearm. Wait a second...

I think that this will have some ramifications that the DHS just aren't seeing. Like an overall decrease in the diversity of tourists and immigrants. Or potentially crippling the travel industry completely. How many times will everyone in an airport be detained due to the computer systems - those that the security applications run on - being down?

Security *always* comes at the expense of convenience. Unfortunately, this only serves to promote a *false* sense of security. Unless you can wrap an impenetrable blanket completely around the nation, you will never be safe. Even so, you would still only be safe from foreign intervention. It will not prevent home-grown crime.

I think that you need to put an end to your DHS before you discover that you have no rights left to defend.

Re:that's nice...

[Ihlosi]

All the 9/11 terrorists had valid ID and weren't on watch lists.

You can bet that their names are on the watch lists now. Just to be sure.

US Customs are rude

[mw22]

The first time I can to the US, I really had an unpleasant experience with the US Customs agent being very rude. I found the procedure very intimidating. I don't mind giving finderprints eyeprints, etc, but the sheer unfriendliness was really unsettling. It made me feel very unpleasant and unwelcome. Note that this was my first impression from the US, the US customs.

Re:US Customs are rude

[pclminion]

Dude, try flying into Israel. Or out of it, for that matter.

I did not get checked...

[Anonymous Coward]

...when I was passing the border in April 2006, the device was broken. The customs agent just shook his head and told me to move on, after asking me what I was doing in the country. The answer "software engineer" was good enough apparently so that I did not have to wait in line for a different checkpoint.

So, no fingerprints of me in the US, which was a bit of a relief I may add. This new "improvement" will make me push even harder not even to go there - even if it means that my employer is "disappointed".

'cause it's working so well for the Saudis

[Presto Vivace]

you don't see any terrorism in Suadi Arabia, oh wait ...

Re:Why don't I see this as a bad thing?

[Ihlosi]

Why is it so bad that the US is going to require fingerprints to gain access to our country?

Because in civilized nations, fingerprinting is usually reserved for people suspected of a crime.

Re:that's nice...

[StikyPad]

I know it's hard to believe there could be multiple Arabic people with the same name, but this was cleared up a long time ago.

Take the BBC, for example, which did in fact report, on September 23, 2001, that some of the alleged terrorists were alive and healthy and had protested their being named as assassins.

But there is one wrinkle. The BBC journalist responsible for the story only recalls this supposed sensation after having been told the date on which the story aired. "No, we did not have any videotape or photographs of the individuals in question at that time," he says, and tells us that the report was based on articles in Arab newspapers, such as the Arab News, an English-language Saudi newspaper.

The operator at the call center has the number for the Arab News on speed dial. We make a call to Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. A few seconds later, Managing Editor John Bradley is on the line. When we tell Bradley our story, he snorts and says: "That's ridiculous! People here stopped talking about that a long time ago."

Bradley tells us that at the time his reporters did not speak directly with the so-called "survivors," but instead combined reports from other Arab papers. These reports, says Bradley, appeared at a time when the only public information about the attackers was a list of names that had been published by the FBI on September 14th. The FBI did not release photographs until four days after the cited reports, on September 27th.

The photographs quickly resolved the nonsense about surviving terrorists. According to Bradley, "all of this is attributable to the chaos that prevailed during the first few days following the attack. What we're dealing with are coincidentally identical names." In Saudi Arabia, says Bradley, the names of two of the allegedly surviving attackers, Said al-Ghamdi and Walid al-Shari, are "as common as John Smith in the United States or Great Britain." http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518 ,265160-2,00.html

Re:Why don't I see this as a bad thing?

[Dunbal]

I'm a firm believer that in order to "defeat" terrorism, we need to prevent any attacks on US soil first and foremost. If that means limiting access to the US, then so be it.

      Please explain how fingerprinting the entire world will prevent a terrorist attack? I'd really love to hear your reasoning.

      The ONLY thing it will do is help if such fingerprints are later found on bomb fragments, or in a terrorist "house", etc. And it will tie a set of fingerprints to an "alias" (I assume terrorists don't travel under their real names). But terrorists are cheap, and especially nowadays there are a LOT of them, thanks to the US' brilliant middle east peace plan over the past few years.

Re:All the security is a drain.

[mr_e_cat]

Affect the bottom line of the airline? Doesn't look like it.

Obviously less foreigners are going to fly into the United States, therefore less revenue.

Re:that's nice...

[Achromatic1978]

You jest, but they are. As are most of Saddam's dead "henchmen". Go figure.

the real effect and reason for US-VISIT v2.0

[gsn]

I'm a student from India. I've been studying physics here, first as an undergrad and now as PhD student. I've also had the privilege of traveling to a fair number of countries (with the family or for research) in my relatively short life. Let me share my fun experiences with the US-VISIT program.

You land at one of the big international airports, for me O'Hare or Logan (both of which will be on this extended program). You have your passport with visa, an I-20 from your school and a filled out I-94 card ready. There are several queues, usually about 3-4 dedicated to American citizens, and a comparable number for foreigners. There is typically a lot more of the latter than the former so the queues meant for American citizens are typically empty, while the remaining queues are long and winding. I've seen a few elderly people faint during the wait in the queue before. There isn't any place to sit, and no way to get water. They've already been on long flights - the one from Madras, India where I am from usually takes ~20+ hrs with layovers.

You wait inching forward, and eventually you get to the yellow line - make sure you stand behind the yellow line (if you have a toe over you will likely get screamed at) until the Immigration official deigns to examine your papers. Not you mind - they never look at you - only your papers.

They always ask you what your name and the purpose of your visit is (never mind its on all three documents you've given them). Eventually they ask for your fingerprint. Left index finger. Scanner doesn't register that right. Do it again. Right index finger. Now pose for your mugshot. Now its going to be all ten fingers. I'm waiting for the DNA sample requests. As an added bonus they can ask you to boot your laptop up to take a look at it (the poor dears look so very confused by a slackware based distro with fluxbox)

I can tell you what US-VISIT v2.0 won't do. It won't make you safer or stop threats to the US of A from crossing your border. It hasn't so far. If it had we'd have heard about it. Going from two fingerprints to ten won't do shit either. Where the evil terrorists somehow able to defeat a hash from just two fingerprints? Can you somehow identify me to a higher confidence level now that you have all ten fingerprints instead of two? Making it ten fingers still isn't going to help unless there is some database with a bunch of terrorists with the fingerprints on file to check against. With two you can prevent people coming in under a different name. Funny how many of the 9/11 terrorists had to do that...

With ten fingerprints you can share more with other countries and see who has been visiting nasty places like Afghanistan to go to those evil terrorist training camps except that no other country I've ever visited collected my fingerprints. Ever. Nor have they made me wait in long queues to get in either. Occasionally they've even smiled at me! When we went to Canada for an APS conference in 2003, the border guard never checked my passport or visa (there was another Indian, and a Nigerian in our van along with three Americans) and joked about not bringing too many mini-kegs back with us.

I can tell you the effect this will have - it will increase the length of those queues. It will annoy more people. People who want to do business here. People who are old and want to just see their family, and have to wait in a line for two damn hours to be welcomed to America by a surly immigration official. Those people will stop coming. If everyone stops coming you will be safer! Its going to cost you and me more money (I get to pay taxes here too) since most of these airports won't be able to handle the load if a large number of international flights get here around the same time and will need larger waiting areas. It will probably create some new jobs for people who want to be surly immigration officials. And its going to get some DHS official a pat on the back and a promotion for actively fighting the terrorists. Lets not kid ourselves - that is what its about.

Re:the real effect and reason for US-VISIT v2.0

[XchristX]

Dude, I don't know when you arrived in the United States or why your experience in particular was this bad, but this is certainly not universally the case unlike the leftie fearmongers would like you to believe.

I too happen to be a physics student from India studying in Texas. I came in through San Fransisco but a few months after 9/11, when paranoia was supposedly at an all time high. Everybody told me to be wary of being strip-searched, stand in long queues, get "teh eeevil eye from teh nasty-nasty Yanks" (I grew up among Communists, what to do?) etc.etc. Nothing even remotely that bad occurred for me. There were no long lines at all (San Frisco airport had way more INS kiosks than necessary) and I sailed through just fine. Maybe if your name was Ahmed instead of Iyer you'd get some extra scrutiny, can't say I blame 'em. The INS officials were smooth, efficient and professional. The INS fellow who processed me even knew a couple of Hindi phrases which he tried to impress me with. Sure they took my fingerprints and shit, but why is that such a big issue unless you're some backwoods militant in Alabama hidin' from "da man" or some gun-toting Talib - Mujahid? If you want to live in any civilized society there has to be some way of identifying you for beaureaucratic purposes at least. Admittedly, this "ten digital fingerprints" is pushing the boundaries of privacy rights. However, I'm confident that there is sufficient political activism in this country to address this problem. That's what it's all about you know, checks and balances. This too shall pass.

Overall, I was very impressed with their efficiency and professionalism.Despite all the irrational and virulent anti-American bigotry and racism coming from my fellow passengers (many of whom were Europeans and middle-easterners, so no surprise there...), they were treated very politely (but firmly) by the immigration officials.

If only they implemented security measures like this in INDIAN airports (thanks for repealing POTA, moonbats) we wouldn't have to deal with thousands of Lashkar-e-Toiba Fidayeen loons running around the country "spreading the Jihad against the Kuffar".

All anecdotal evidence, I admit, but so's yours.

Re:the real effect and reason for US-VISIT v2.0

[fred fleenblat]

part of the system is to see how agitated people become while doing all this waiting. the idea is that someone who is doing or planning something illegal will become nervous and evasive when they finally get to talk to the agent. the more stressed they are from waiting in line, the more likely they are to betray their true intent.

not sure that's scientifically sound, but it seems like it would at least make it easier to spot the amateur or newly recruited terrorist.

Re:the real effect and reason for US-VISIT v2.0

[thechao]

I loved your comment. I live in a certain very large southern state, so I'm typically surrounded by knee-jerk idiocy. However, I wanted to expand on your comment about security. First, I don't think there should be *any* airport security. Like NONE. There's no security at the Starbucks down the street, or the public library in the other direction. There's no security at the nat. gas well that's 80 meters from my house. None. Airport security is a mechanism to bottleneck citizens of the USA (and more broadly), people, in general. What we really need---and never really get---is AIRPLANE security. I'm talking armed, ex-airforce pilots, a federal marshal or three, and rifle-proof cabin doors. It's hard to hijack a plane when -real- police keep putting holes in you. If you're concerned with baggage then have an automatic conveyor belt with x-ray/other detectors and a big yes/no switch. Pipe the signal to three randomly chosen locations elsewhere. If all three (randomly) chosen viewers say "OK" then the baggage goes in, else it's shunted back to the ground. This stuff seems so obvious, and it would provide *real* security and not just a breach of my constitutional rights, and the waste of my tax dollars.

Also, on a slightly more tangential note, I am irritated how the Constitution has been corrupted to only provide protections to USA citizens. The constitution is a political ideology which (most) of my fellow citizens believe in: it applies generally to all people, not those in our borders. The fact that it has been corrupted to mean `protect the few here and screw the rest' makes my blood boil.

Re:the real effect and reason for US-VISIT v2.0

[hotsauce]

Sure they took my fingerprints and shit, but why is that such a big issue unless you're some backwoods militant in Alabama hidin' from "da man" or some gun-toting Talib - Mujahid?

Right! If you've got nothing to hide, spread 'em, bend over, and take it like a bitch! And I'm sure that ain't in that leftie book of famous last words...

If only they implemented security measures like this in INDIAN airports (thanks for repealing POTA, moonbats) we wouldn't have to deal with thousands of Lashkar-e-Toiba Fidayeen loons running around the country "spreading the Jihad against the Kuffar".

Right on! All those tanks and fighter-bombers sure have brought peace and happiness to Kashmir! Why don't they do that all over India? Then surely the whole country would be in bliss.

Don't worry GP. We get screamed at now, too. It was quite a shock after a wonderful trip to Europe. Me thinks the security aparatus here is letting the "hero" thing get to their heads. It will take generations of "lefties" like you to solve the problems parent is confident political activism will address (fun to see he leaves that to someone else).

Re:the real effect and reason for US-VISIT v2.0

[Mex]

To be fair, I had a much, much worse experience in Spain than in the USA regarding immigration practices.

The lines on the spanish Barajas airport were just as long, and the police at the airport stopped me twice because I had a beard. Maybe I looked muslim but I'm fucking mexican, I even spoke their language.

They strip searched me, and made me (and my family who were standing with me) almost miss my flight, after asking dumb questions like "Why do you carry this pouch inside of your shirt?". It was one of those pouches to keep your passport and money safe.

It didn't do them any good - they still had a successful terror attack a few months later. I think it was ETA.

Re:the real effect and reason for US-VISIT v2.0

[XchristX]

Right on! All those tanks and fighter-bombers sure have brought peace and happiness to Kashmir! Maybe if they didn't strap bombs to their own babies and hurled them at people, tried to establish Sharia law in the whole region, and ethnically cleanse Kashmir of all non-Muslim minorities this wouldn't have been necessary. It's just like the levant basically. Islamists work to force democracies to withdraw, democracies protect their citizens, leftists blame it all on the democracies... And read about how the Indian Army crushed the Islamist insurgency in Hyderabad in 5 days after independence After that, not one peep out of the Muslims, ever. It's become so impossible to rally the Hyderabadi Muslims into radicalism now that the terrorists are actually bombing mosques there nowadays.Once, an Islamist nut tried to spread anti-Hindu hatred in a madrassa in Hyderabad. The Muslims got mad at him and threw him out. Draconian measures work, when mediated by necessity against an enemy that lives to spread hate and death work. Simple. Live with it, or go live in the mountains of the North Western Frontier Provinces of Pakistan and see what they'll do to you there...

Re:the real effect and reason for US-VISIT v2.0

[Dark_Gravity]

I'm waiting for the DNA sample requests.

If you're lucky you can use the copy of Hustler (option 4 on the multiple choice) to help produce your DNA sample.

Re:the real effect and reason for US-VISIT v2.0

[XchristX]

I am wondering how many terrorists "flew" to India! A surprisingly large number actually.I mentioned a particular terrorist group Lashkar-e-Toiba for a reason. They have extensive involvement in Chechnya and other parts of Central Asia and they fly back and forth.

Your hatred for "anything/anyone" who does not look/speak like you is very interesting. Really? How do you know what I look like or speak like? Presumably you're trying to smear me as some sort of "bigot" where all I see is the typical leftist tripe , leftist bigotry and tinfoil hat conspiracist paranoia of slashdot modded up as "Insightful".No, sir. I hate nobody. I do, however, love my life, and do not wish to have it vaporized in a bomb blast.

Re:the real effect and reason for US-VISIT v2.0

[chihowa]

There are several queues, usually about 3-4 dedicated to American citizens, and a comparable number for foreigners.

I've heard people bring this up repeatedly, and I'm curious. I'm quite well traveled for my age (my parents took me all over Europe many times and since I've lived with them I've been to every continent at least once (well, save one!)) and I've never been to a foreign airport where the citizens of that country didn't pass through customs more quickly than foreigners. If there was any sort of line at all, it was always the foreigners waiting. Are you claiming that all countries besides the US have more customs agents available for foreigners than citizens of that country?

Re:the real effect and reason for US-VISIT v2.0

[Ihlosi]

the idea is that someone who is doing or planning something illegal will become nervous and evasive when they finally get to talk to the agent. the more stressed they are from waiting in line, the more likely they are to betray their true intent.

Yeah right. As if there's no other reasons to get nervous and irritated after arriving at the airport. Like having spent 12+ hours in a cramped airplane, with kids screaming for 6 hours non-stop (bonus points if they're _your_ kids). Or worrying about catching that connecting flight (three hours doesn't seem to be enough safety margin nowadays). Or worrying about being asked stupid questions in a language you're not completely fluent in.

Re:the real effect and reason for US-VISIT v2.0

[gsn]

I've been to every continent at least once (well, save one!)) and I've never been to a foreign airport where the citizens of that country didn't pass through customs more quickly than foreigners. If there was any sort of line at all, it was always the foreigners waiting. Are you claiming that all countries besides the US have more customs agents available for foreigners than citizens of that country?

Yeah citizens always end up passing through customs at international terminals quicker. Part of that is there IS less documentation to check, and at least at the US airports the international flights tend to bring in more foreigners than American citizens. Fair enough. You'd think they'd take that into account and figure out and assign the appropriate number of agents/queues for each group the but they haven't. The problem isn't nearly this bad at Heathrow, De Gaulle, Amsterdam, Toronto, several places in the Middle East, Singapore... (basically anywhere else I've been and a lot of them have major airports).

The other issue is that they have can have 3 agents manning booths for US citizens when there aren't any in any line. I remember one time at O'Hare particularly - two booths are side by side facing opposite directions and the guys were just chatting to each other - they didn't have anyone go through for an hour. At the same time there are about 6-8 possible booths for foreigners out of which 2 will be empty but the lines will be out of the door in the arrival lounge.

My point was one of the big effects of taking ten fingerprints - if you still get them one finger at a time (do you really think they will spend money on new equipment that can do all ten at once?) is that it will exacerbate this problem further, without actually being of any use at all (US-VISIT hasn't stopped an actual terrorist yet - if it flagged even one we'd hear it trumpeted as a great success and vindication of the literally hundreds of millions of dollars that have gone into it).

As XchristX points out anecdotal evidence but thats been my experience - mine matches his frequently in lots of other places.

Re:Why don't I see this as a bad thing?

[The Angry Mick]

Because it won't defeat terrorism.

Try to remember that terrorism is not an import. Before 9/11 we had Timothy McVeigh, the Unabomber, Eric Rudolph, and host of serial killers and mass murderers that were entirely homegrown. Fingerprinting all civilians inserts the impression that all are suspect, and creates a strong resentment towards the people in power who appear to be immune from suspicion. Increased restrictions on freedom (yes, that's the same "freedom" our president claims to be protecting) only reinforces resentment, and this can lead to an overtly hostile populace. Stop to consider that this very same populace is fed a steady stream of stories about government corruption and you have a fine recipe for revolt.

This is not the idea that is "America", this is a perversion.

I for one applaud this imaginative initiative...

[clickety6]

...to discourage people from traveling to the US and so reducing all that nasty, harmful air travel. Who knows, another few masterstrokes like this and the US might become carbon neutral in our lifetimes!

Re:that's nice...

[unlametheweak]

I suppose it would just discourage people from going to Disney Land because of the hassles. I doubt if anybody who would consider themselves on a watch list would even bother trying. Treating your average tourist like a criminal certainly isn't going to help visitors feel welcome.

And they ensure privacy while saying they will share biometric data with other government agencies. This does not sound like privacy to me. I'm sure this will effect a lot of social activists and church groups, but I don't see it stopping terrorism. I suppose this is another good reason I don't post my real name on Slashdot, I'm sure I would be on a Watch List ;)

Quantum WTF!?

[dangitman]

athloi sends word of an expansion of the US-VISIT program that now requires two fingerprints from foreign visitors arriving at scores of airports.

That's a pretty impressive feat - to arrive at multiple airports at the same time. Generally humans can only arrive in one place at a time. Have the evil terrorists developed some sort of cloning, or is this more of a space-time wormhole type deal? The authorities should probably start looking out for blue police boxes making funny "wooga wooga" sounds.

Re:All the security is a drain.

[SL Baur]

Obviously less foreigners are going to fly into the United States, therefore less revenue. Yes, I'm sure of it. I know it's popular to gripe about airport security inside the US, but it's nothing compared to what you have to go through on a flight going to the United States. To board a US-bound plane from Ninoy Aquino airport in Manila you have to go through 3 checkpoints. Once at the door (everywhere in the Philippines you will find armed guards at the entrances to public buildings and you can always expect to be searched - they have a real terrorist problem), once at customs, and once deep inside the terminal to actually enter the final boarding area. The final boarding area conveniently does not include toilets for security reasons. I suppose it's a blessing that you do not have to take off your shoes at the door. The airlines, of course, advertise the fact that they are complying with US security laws.

Procedures once you have landed seem to be about the same. Strangely or not strangely, Singapore has by far the friendliest airport and procedures, but of course, Singapore depends heavily on tourism.

I strongly resent being treated like an animal and then have the voice on the speaker at the end of the flight say, "I hope you enjoyed your flight, have a pleasant stay in the United States". Grrr.

What if...

[CrazyKen]

I only had 9 fingers? Would I be able to come to the US??

Re:What if...

[Builder]

You might be joking, but my wife only has 9. She lost part of her thumb in a boating accident about 2 years ago.

As it was, we went to the US on business then (my last trip because of how the officials treated her), and despite her having lost a digit, the dumbass pricks still insisted that she mangle her bandages to get her index finger out for scanning.

Then they gave her loads of extra security checks including swabbing her bandages and running the swap through some form of chemical analyser. And the bitch doing the swabbing would NOT listen, and swabbed right over the point where my had recently had an amputation.

So yeah, fuck US travel. I'll spend the £20k per year that I used to spend in the US in other countries now. So far the stupid sadists have lost £60k (over $100,000) that I would have normally put into their economy.

Re:What if...

[smoker2]

Funny, but probably true.
Author Bill Bryson had a story of someone who was trying for a residence permit, and had to provide fingerprints. Unfortunately the person only had 9 fingers, having lost one years before. The last we heard, the person was still trying to get it through to the officials that not having 10 prints to give, he couldn't fully comply. They still insisted on having the full set though ....

Is it required?

[phorm]

I've seen some interesting requirements from various systems in my time, sometimes they're a bit hard-wired too. What happens if the person in question only has 9 fingers (accidents do happens, and finger-severing ones tend to be not that uncommon). Are they blocked out when the system absolutely requires ten fingers, or do they have to acquiesce to some other form of identification/searches/etc?

Re:Is it required?

[adnonsense]

Or what about people with more than ten fingers? Yes, it does happen (something genetic) - when I was at school there was a kid with 6 digits on both one hand and one foot, and I've heard of other cases occasionally. (I suppose they'd probably be tagged as "aliens" and be shipped down to Area 51 with no further ado).

Re:Is it required?

[lawpoop]

Honestly, I think they have you scan your nub.

Re:Is it required?

[phorm]

I thought about this, but technically it would fulfill the needs of the software just to have 10 fingers scanned, whereas having less than such might lead to some form of error

Re:Is it required?

[Ihlosi]

I suppose they'd probably be tagged as "aliens"

They're already tagged "aliens" if they're being fingerprinted. Duh !

Re:that's nice...

[Original Replica]

fingerprints are a lot harder to fake than a passport.

The Mythbusters would disagree with you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA4Xx5Noxyo

Re:Why don't I see this as a bad thing?

[SL Baur]

I agree with you in principle, but to me it seems more the norm than the exception. The United States requires (or at least used to require) fingerprinting as part of a DOD security clearance application.

In Japan if you have a visa you are required to be fingerprinted and carry an alien card (the gaijin card). When I lived there, one fingerprint was displayed on the card, though they have since phased out the picture, but not the fingerprinting requirement.

In the Philippines an alien (or any citizen) is required to be fingerprinted to get an NBI clearance (required for any work, identification and for long-term visas). Also, if you are required to get an exit clearance to leave the country, you will be fingerprinted for that.

No matter how many times I've been fingerprinted and never by the police for a suspected crime, I still feel soiled.

Meanwhile, local Hells Angels chapters

[thewils]

and the Mafia will continue to provide airport services around the country.

Re:Making a good impression

[scooter.higher]

I'm already working on a prototype with my with my wife.

Since I was in a hurry to get the program going, I did away with the delays associated with construction by using my body's own imaging capabilities.

I was going to send a link to the pictures, but she deleted them from the camera before I could upload them...

Now to find a few more test subjects...

Re:that's nice...

[Shetan]

fingerprints are a lot harder to fake than a passport. So just fake a US or Canadian passport, since US and Canadian citizens are not included in the program.

These are good security measures

[zoftie]

American government have much to worry about, since its total trade deficit and very weak currency, that is artificially propped up. Seeing this from perspective of economy, it may well be that government is preparing for a big one. Once the economy collapses and all the crooks of the white house and other hight governmental circles are exposed, with economy dead - people will take revenge.

Oil will get only more expensive, with weak currency, US might not afford the oil anymore.
Just a thought, It may well be all false.

Re:These are good security measures

[butlerdi]

Just wait until all of those sub prime mortgages that are dropping the share prices of the investment firms go into default. Thousands of jobs will go as well as many corporate bankruptcies (default rates 5% now will go much higher). The sheep may no longer be so happy then. When they finally see that the true terrorists are from within their own government. That is when they will need homeland security.

Look out! Terrorists are hiding in the zoo!

[tjstork]

I apologize in advance for the subsequent stream of obscenities, but I'm a lifelong Republican who feels eminently betrayed by his own party and the leaders of the conservative movement.

To start : Open the borders and make airports cool again. Tear down all the scanners and let people walk through the gates to see planes take off. Quit worrying that someone might blow up this or that and start focusing on making money. There are no terrorists hiding under your goddamn bed, so you can quit shitting in it every time you see the lights flicker. If you need big daddy government to make yourself feel safe, then you have no business calling yourself a Republican. Every Republican should stand up and demand that these pussies that co-opt our party be held to account. Conservatism is supposed to mean taking things in perspective, even in supposedly dire circumstances, with a confidence to handle your own affairs. There has been absolutely no perspective in this war, just overreaching knee jerk reactions like a woman burning down her house to get a mouse. Tell Anne Coulter that if she has to have this war on terror to feel safe, she ought to get back in the fucking kitchen and start making dinner like a good Republican dike is supposed to do.

The leaders of this conservative movement have completely failed, and I'm almost disgusted with myself that I even used to listen to the likes of Rush. "Oh, the terrorists are going to get us." Dude, I bench almost 300lbs. Bring that old f--- Bin Laden on, and I'll punch him in his fucked up kidney and that will be the end of him. Swagger, that's how you fight these people. Arrogant faith in freedom and delighting in our consumer lifestyle. This introspective, fearful war on terror is the most profoundly un-American response to any crisis that I have seen in my lifetime. Americans are not supposed to be afraid of anything, and here we are crying like a bunch of pansies because of some dude with a beard. Death! We all have to go. Get over it. If you believed in God as much as you said you do, you would not be afraid to die for freedom yourself, by the way, like you ask our soldiers to do.

I thought we already proved with the Cold War that backwards ideologies bring themselves down and that all we need to do is focus on making money to win. All of this crap that we hear about terrorists plotting this or that is the same shit we heard before about Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and more... (fill in the blank) secret agents are plotting to destroy the USA. Get off the Oxy, quit dreaming up conspiracies, and walk down the street confident that you can kick some terrorist ass or die trying if it comes down to it. I'd rather worry about the occasional arab that might look suspicious than every camera that surely is. I'm not afraid of no islamist, and neither should you be.

Re:Look out! Terrorists are hiding in the zoo!

[Alexpkeaton1010]

Do you honestly think that *any* US politician is going to actually say "Screw it! We don't need airport security!"?? If you honestly believe that this will happen within the next 20 years, then you absolutely have no idea how politics work, and should never vote, talk, or speak about politics ever again.

Airport security is the *one* thing that both Democrats and Republicans agree upon.
The war in Iraq? No.
The war in Afghanistan? Mostly.
Airport security? Hell yes!

Slightly off topic: the new "Freedom Center"

[adnonsense]

I was browsing through some frequent flyer forums to get the lowdown on the latest regulations regarding the carriage of dihydrogen monoxide on planes when I came across a link to this beautiful nugget:

"Transportation Security Operations Center Re-Named Freedom Center"

On June 21, TSA's primary operational hub was re-named the Freedom Center, symbolizing the agency's commitment to protecting the nation's transportation systems against terrorist threats...

Re:Slightly off topic: the new "Freedom Center"

[adnonsense]

(erk, push submit instead of preview)

The TSA being the Transportation Security Administration, the people in charge of your airport security. The quote is from here.

So I guess that'll be Freedom Fingerprints they'll be collecting then.../p

Re:Making a good impression

[Odin's Raven]

I was going to suggest that since most terrorists are male, we simply request vaginaprints. If you cannot produce a valid vaginaprint you cannot get on the plane or enter the country.

Now that's just silly - I've heard you can fool those scanners by using a simple gelatin copy of a valid v-print.

(...flash forward 2 weeks to my next airport visit...)

• TSA agent: Well well well, what have we here? Trying to subvert airline security are we, Mr. Raven?
• Me: Oh heavens, no - it's just a ...errr... a marital aid.
• TSA agent: Sir, I submit to you that this is a v-print circumvention device. And not a terribly good one, at that.
• Me: No no no. Clearly what it is, is a ...ummm... a sex toy kind of thing. You know, a nudge-nudge-wink-wink "artifical beaver". And what do you mean that it's not very good?
• TSA agent: Sir, are you, in fact, married?
• Me: Well, not as such, but...
• TSA agent: I rather thought not. It may interest you to know that the colloquial meaning of the term "beaver" is not, in fact, a semi-aquatic rodent that gnaws down trees.
• Me: Damn Google and its "I'm feeling lucky" button! I spent ages trying to get the teeth right.
• TSA agent: Nicely done, sir. Quite good detailing on the tail as well.
• Me: Oh, thanks very much!
• TSA agent: However, your choice of material...
• Me: What? I happen to like lime Jell-O!
• TSA agent: As do we all, sir, as do we all. The coloring, however, is not particularly realistic for any of the myriad definitions of the term "beaver".
• Me: Wow, so the scanner actually takes color into account? Wish I'd known that a few days ago.
• TSA agent: No, the scanner is actually greyscale. But at least now you've admitted that you created this ...object... to use against our v-scanner.
• Me: Oh damn. Well, it's a fair cop.
• TSA agent: Appreciate your understanding, sir. Security! Seize this man!

Points of entry

[mrbluze]

a system that collects 10 digital fingerprints, at 10 major points of entry

I can think of 7 points of entry (nostrils, ears, mouth..). How are they going to make another 3?

Re:Points of entry

[coinreturn]

I can think of 7 points of entry (nostrils, ears, mouth..). How are they going to make another 3?

1. Right Nostril
2. Left Nostril
3. Right Ear
4. Left Ear
5. Mouth
6. Anus
7. Vagina (if you have one)

What's the point?

[Sperbels]

Anyone who really wants to get into the country need only sail up to either the pacific or atlantic coast somewhere and jump overboard.

What happends if you don't have hands?

[WarJolt]

AMPUTEES!!!! I consider it an invasion of privacy for the government to track where I go. Whats next RFIDS? oh wait wrong article.

Surprising

[LilGuy]

No references to Gattaca. Remember the scene that showed every single person who worked had to stick their thumb on and automatic pricking machine so it could verify their dna and identity?

Hm...

[Wienaren]

Requiring 10 fingerprints means practically that 30% of carpenters worldwide will be denied entry... (provided that 10 prints of the same finger won't do)...

Statistic ?

[aepervius]

I really wish to see a scientific study on that. Maybe common sense is wrong like in many case, but it certainly dictate to me that people being forced in a stresful situation like waiting 2 hours to be finger printed will be nervous in average, whereas a terrorist will KNOW ina dvance that it is made to detect his own nervousity and will simply fight it (chemically or by training) to be below the level. I predict that since the system is known, it will never catch any terrorist due to their nervousity. It might catch a lot of average citizen (false negative) and when your false negative overwhelm your positive... Then it is more than useless.

Re:that's nice...

[Nazmun]

Clearly, we cannot allow others with similar generic arabic names to be allowed in. If one Mohammed Akhbar is a terrorist surely they all are even if they are from a totally different country.

The. U.S. is in essence giving the illusion of security by hasseling everyone and preventing innocents from visiting. Congratulations! Eight years ago I had a optimistic outlook for the future of this country back when i was in highschool. Then 9/11 happend and the sheeps revealed themselves (yay lets be patriotic and beat up hindu shieks--or however you spell their names).

Re:Why don't I see this as a bad thing?

[Ihlosi]

No matter how many times I've been fingerprinted and never by the police for a suspected crime, I still feel soiled.

After touching a fingerprint scanner that has been touched by god-knows-how-many people and has a visible layer of grease on it, you have every reason to.

I wonder if I should bring some disinfectant next time. I think the toilet seats in the airport are more hygienic than those scanners.

Re:Why don't I see this as a bad thing?

[Don_dumb]

Why is it so bad that the US is going to require fingerprints to gain access to our country? I'm a firm believer that in order to "defeat" terrorism, we need to prevent any attacks on US soil first and foremost. If that means limiting access to the US, then so be it.

Simple - if it isn't wrong for some people to be fingerprinted to gain access to the USA then it isn't wrong for all people IN the USA to be fingerprinted.

I expect that given your opinion you will be standing first in line to have your unique biological information stored on criminal databases for eternity.

No thought not.

Re:Why don't I see this as a bad thing?

[macheath]

Well, as a visitor I want to visit, not get a job at the DoD...

Privacy rules.

[Ihlosi]

1. We may and will share the data with whatever government or corporate entity we want.
2. We won't tell you whom we've shared your data with - that's private.
3. In case of unintentional sharing of your data, see #2.

Awesome

[Toreo asesino]

It reminds me of the landing card q/a you have to fill out. Including:

"Are you a part of any known terrorist organisation? [y/n]"
"Do you intend to participate in illegal or immoral activities in the US? [y/n]"

Needless to say, I had every intention of participating in immoral activities in the US.

Just the beginning

[Floritard]

But he noted that the FBI and CIA will have access to the biometric data, which over time may expand beyond fingerprints. Ok then! Almost done here. If I could just get a small stool sample. Yes sir I realize it was a long flight. Well I can't let you leave until I get the sample sir. We have plenty of complementary airline food, I'm sure you can come up with something. Look if this is going to be a problem you can just march right back onto that plane and go back to wherever it was that tolerated your complete hatred of freedom. Look I have a job to do, and right now it's getting your stool so we can be sure you don't have any nefarious plans against our great nation.

Yes sir I did, and again in '04. He's a great man isn't he?

The reality is, it only hurts the Americans

[Stu101]

I am a british citizen, and as such I like my liberty (not that we have much left either but hey ho!)

The GF wants to go to Disneyland. I have been there before, years ago, it was good!

However I do not want some foreign nation to have all my biodata. Therefore I will be voting with my wallet. I was going to book us a trip to Disneyland but now I don't think I will. I am also aware of the grasping nature of disney, but I can't force my opinions on my GF just to keep the moral high ground.

I'll just go to france and go to Euro Disney. Ok its not the same, but its closer, cheaper, and no giving up my freedoms or indeed biometric markers.

This means that although Disney will not loose money (it all flows back to Disney in some form) the surrounding people and businesses will not get my money, so they are a few hundred short on what they could have made. Now I am only one person, but imagine if 10,000 people felt the same way. Thats a lot of money that is NOT flowing into the US economy. That makes your economy even poorer. Did it increase security by getting my biodata, doubt it a lot!

The American government needs to understand this is not the way to increase either global relations OR tourism. One hand is saying oh come to america, its great, its fun. The other is saying come over here and the bover boys in the uniforms will make you give them anything they want, in the name of security.

At the end of the day, America has to wake up to itself and realise it is being left behind. It has an obsession with *total* control of its drones, sorry, citizens.

Passing through?

[AIFEX]

Would anyone be able to clarify if this also applies to people making connecting flights to other, non-us, destinations? I'll be flying to Mexico in a few months and I believe I will have to transfer in Dallas, TX.

As an Englishman, I must say that, although the united states has some great places and great people, the collective attitude does nothing but inspire me NOT to return.

Re:that's nice...

[Sancho]

That's actually not true.

Two of the terrorists were on watch lists, and based on frequent flier numbers and the addresses used, intelligence agencies could have (in theory) correlated enough information to find most of the rest of them.

Never mind

[Fuzzums]

I made up my mind long ago. I refuse to be treated like a criminal and have my fingerprints taken. I'm not a criminal so don't treat me like that.

I think it's time to oppose this nonsence ^H^H^H play along and take pictures, fingerprints, bloodsamples and do cavitysearches for all trans-atlantic flights. The ones coming FROM the land formerly known as the land of the free.

Actually

[Fuzzums]

Most of the reactions on this topic say the same thing and I think it's a shame.

I'm sure there are a lot of reasonable people living in the US and there are many nice and interesting places to visit, but the fact remains people are avoiding the US for these things and actually I'm quite afraid the EU will follow. We already have a digital picture in our passport and more will follow (but nothing a microwave can't fix)...

Re:Why don't I see this as a bad thing?

[SL Baur]

You were fingerprinted the first time you applied for your gaijin card which would have been within a few weeks of entering Japan on your (first) visa. They stopped displaying the fingerprint on the card in 2001, I think.