Slashdot Mirror
National ID May Have Killed Immigration Bill
News.com reports that the immigration reform bill bouncing around in the Senate for the last few weeks has finally been defeated. The site speculates that, perhaps, one of the reasons it was finally defeated was a measure intended to expand the use of Real ID cards. If passed, the bill would have effectively turned the Real ID system into a National ID card. "The American Civil Liberties Union, another longtime foe of Real ID, said the Real ID requirements were a 'poison pill that derailed this bill, and any future legislation should be written knowing the American people won't swallow it.' Another section of the immigration bill would have given $1.5 billion to state officials to pay for Real ID compliance. Even if the immigration bill is goes nowhere, however, the Real ID Act is still in effect. It says, starting on May 11, 2008, Americans will need a federally-approved ID card to travel on an airplane, open a bank account, collect Social Security payments or take advantage of nearly any government service." As we've discussed before, several states have rebelled against the implementation of Real ID.
Why does that ring a bell?
- Tempestdata
2) Aside from point 1), this makes no sense. The immigration bill collapsed, the Real ID is going through and that somehow proves that Real ID is politically untenable?!?
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
the 9/11 terrorists had legitimate ID's.
This does nothing to stop terrorists or terrorism.
The immigration bill failed because of the number of citizens who made noise against the bill. My guess is that more than a few senators were scared into voting differently than they otherwise would have. For now, the people get their way.
-- Betting on the survival of the media industry is a serious risk. I advise investing elsewhere.
I'm sorry, but this bit of the synopsis confused me:
If passed, the bill would have effectively turned the Real ID system into a National ID card.
I was under the impression that the Real ID system all by itself was intended as a de facto national ID card. What am I missing?
All the techniques ever used to make men moral have been themselves thoroughly immoral... (Nietzsche)
I am so jaded about my countrymen that the following quote actually made me chuckle:
"The American Civil Liberties Union, another longtime foe of Real ID, said the Real ID requirements were a 'poison pill that derailed this bill, and any future legislation should be written knowing the American people won't swallow it."
The emphasis is mine.
*sigh*
Regards.
First "Kill Bill" reference! ...though probably not, seeing as this is slashdot.
I'm not saying we need a national ID system, by any means.
What I don't understand is why people get so up in arms about requiring people to prove that they are eligible for the services for which they are applying.
Why do so many people advocate the abuse of services that could otherwise go to deserving, eligible American citizens?
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
I may be stupid, but I just don't get it.
Even if the immigration bill is goes nowhere, however, the Real ID Act is still in effect. It says that, starting on May 11, 2008, Americans will need a federally approved ID card to travel on an airplane, open a bank account, collect Social Security payments or take advantage of nearly any government service.What could possibly be bad about that (except administrational costs)? I don't live in USA, but I assume that you would need some sort of ID for all these things today as well (surely you can't collect social security without providing some sort of proof of who you are and that you actually are entitled to it?). What's the difference between having a federally approved ID card instead of just a state approved?
Anyone who has been following this issue for the past six weeks knows good and well that the audacity of the elected officials to ignore, debase, and belittle their constituents created the massive ground swell of dissenting voters. To claim that the Nation ID idea caused the defeat of this bill is ludicrous. But if the blurb had commented on talk radio and conservatives, this wouldn't be Slashdot, now would it?
Conservative, liberal, and moderate voters all thought this was a poor idea - not some minor amendment to this stinking legislation.
---
but make sure that the last line
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is it that bad seein a hot chick again? if i see a hot chick walkin down the hall i dont say "repost"
...had it happened today, we would had their fingerprints!
While I can understand why privacy advocates would want to make this one of the 'main reasons' why the Immigration Bill failed, it was really not much of a deal-breaker. Sure, maybe some of the senators' votes were partially influenced by this, but there were literally dozens of amendments that were far more important which were the deal-breakers, such as:
1) Requiring that illegal immigrants go back to their country of origin to apply for the Z visa
2) Requiring that illegal immigrants had no felonies on their record
3) Requiring a lengthier background check, rather than the default 24-hour 'status adjustment' if the background check wasn't finished
The discussion has been very heated, particularly here in California, where talk show hosts have been rallying their listeners for the past few months to contact our local senators and pretty much tell them that their job is on the line if they passed this bill. California is probably the one state where illegal immigration is pretty much out of control, and the public is pretty passionate about it, because we live with it and see it first-hand.
Trust me, the National ID card was barely mentioned in any of the discussions here; enforcement of the existing laws and tougher penalties for businesses that knowingly hire illegals were the main arguments.
Honestly, I wish that Senator Kennedy moved to California and lived here for a good 6 months, so he could see how out-of-control things really are. Maybe then he'd get back in touch with reality and would stop his ignorant rhetoric about "Gestapo tactics" and whatnot.
"We'll need 2000 crickets, 4 cans of Easy Cheese, and the fluid from 18 glowsticks for this plan to work...." - ph0n1c
Right here in the US. In fact, nearly all countries have a nationally issued, highly standardized ID that's used in all sorts of high-security situations, banking transactions,etc. It's called a passport. Everyone should have one anyway. Easy solution, and doesn't require one single new thing (and yes, I know, there's presently a backlog on US passport applications but This Too Will Pass).
Also, as has been mentioned earlier, the ACLU trying to spin this as a rejection of RealID is stupid beyond belief (this got posted as a story how???). The right hates is because there's too much amnesty, the left hates it because there's not enough amnesty, and most of the people in the middle hate it because it took a reasonably good idea and turned it into an unprincipled pork-fest as senators were bought and sold with pet projects in their districts. In other words, politics as usual.
Help save the critically endangered Blue Iguana
Millions of illegal people with jobs in this country and I can't find one
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
The fact that this bill was even proposed shows you how out of touch most of our elected officials are. They dont really care about you just about keeping there jobs. All of the Presidential candidates look the same on both sides of the aisle, except Ron Paul, someone who has actually read the Constitution.
Revolution is coming
s/Kryptonite/pork/g
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
I don't like the idea of national ID either, but I do think that non citizens in this country should probably have to have something like this.
The immigration bill died because Americans literally melted down the Senate's phone system because they don't want to grant amnesty now for border enforcement later since it's well known that the government has NO interest whatsoever in doing this.
The support for the legalization of criminal illegal aliens comes both from the far left (who sees a low skilled, uneducated underclass they can entice into a voting block with welfare programs) and the far right (who sees cheap labor that they can use to artificially depress wages). Polls show that 80% of the country opposes it.
Corporatism != Free Market
I'm just glad it's dead.
I don't know what's more tragic: that John and Robert Kennedy were killed, or that Ted wasn't.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
I get what he is saying there, no-one is saying the people here illegally are not real people who are worth something.
But the very real people, trying to legally immigrate, are they not worth something too? Why should other people get ahead of them just because they wandered over?
If someone jumps ahead of you in line, do you say "well good for them for coming out of the shadows" or do you steam because it's not fair? No life is not fair, but then why make it even more unfair than it is already for people that are trying to follow rules.
Not to mention, if you provide amnesty for millions of people, why on earth would not millions more come illegally, expecting the same thing? You are opening the floodgates to a lot more illegal immigration. You help a group now and simply shift the same problem to the future. If you are going to do that, just do away with immigration laws or border control or any pretense you want to have the slightest idea or control over who is immigrating.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The immigration bill was bad bad bad.. If the also bad national ID clause is what killed it.. great!
What? You want to see my papers?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
The more "secure" ID are, the more convincing counterfeits become.
Kudos to the ACLU for striking while the brand is hot to USE this moment to push an agenda. Again Congress has proven that doing nothing for the wrong reason is easier than doing something for the right reason. Huh?
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
I hear a lot of people taking credit for the demise of the immigration bill, and many people and groups did take issue with it over one provison or another. However I think the main reason it went down was because many people sharply realised the government is broken and not only NOT looking out for their interests but it has outright contempt for them. People have been dismayed that after the WTC attack and the Iraq war, border security remains relaxed in the extreme. Republican and Democrat voters were both against this bill, and when the vast majority of people were told their concerns were "secondary" if not selfish it became clear special interests were leading the government and not the people. A key element was that nobody believed the government would actually enforce any of the provisions included in the bill since they have such a miserable record of it in the past (and now its clear the governement can't even process passport requests or protect people from contaminated foods and they even hope to do a good job of that). With illegal immigration its been clear the powers that be don't want to stop it at all, and that the will of the people was seen seen as a hindrance that needs to be bulldozered if it can't be deceived. The main factor in the defeat of the bill was that many voters finally had the realisation that their government has kicked them to the curb. Lying and empty promises won't work anymore.
RealID wasn't even a consideration. The American people (including me) calling/emailing their Senators and overwhelming both the phone and email system caused this bill to come crashing down.
This "Grand Bargain" was great for those seeking el-cheapo workers aka (Corporations)and great for Democrats looking to purchase a new hispanic voting block. I just don't understand how so many can place greed over proper management of our country and culture. I am not opposed to immigration but opening the floodgates to 12-20 million people is insane.
We need to secure our borders and halt all immigration until we can come up with a fair system. The system needs to be fair to the immigrant and fair to the American worker. Sorry, I was ranting, I just feel badly for the poor H1-B's out there stuck in slave labor situations. I also feel badly for Americans out of work due to unfair immigration.
Either we come up with a fair system or wait for our standard of living to equalize with that of Mexico, Communist China, and India. It's a complex global problem, but Real-ID is not even a factor.
Kind of funny that I don't quite agree totally with the Republican or Democrat side on these issues.
I am in favor of cracking down on illegal immigration - not here legally, leave the country and go back home and apply to immigrate here. However, Real ID is not needed and it is a de-facto National ID card, plain and simple. There is no place for it here in the USA. There is no need for linking driver databases or the Tri-National Driver License Agreement. The Real ID should be repealed and anyone and everyone should Contact Congress and demand its repeal and do it while the Democrats control Congress. Rather than having laws that curtail civil liberties of US citizens, we need to first enforce the laws on the books instead of the typical attitude of looking the other way. Each time the gov't has a shortcoming of enforcing their laws, they pass more laws and we citizens get punished for it. This vicious cycle needs to end.
On the legal immigration issue, I have expressed interest in leaving the USA such as go live in New Zealand. However, I would do ths the legal way though. I went there after Christmas for vacation and when I went through immigration, my passport was stamped with a 3 month visitor permit with an expiration 3 months after the date of the stamp which is the arrival date. The stamp mentioned that if I was in NZ after 3 months (past the expiration date), I was subject to being deported from the country. If I wanted to be there longer than 3 months, I would have to go to NZ immigration and ask for an extention of the permit. At that point, they would extend it or not. If not, I have to leave before the expiration date. Simple rules. It is something we should expect of those who visit the USA or any other country. BTW, the permit did not allow me to earn an income there. That is a different permit which takes paperwork to get. I am too old (older than 30) to get a Working Holiday Permit like many young people get such as college students and recent graduates.
Mexico's social infrastructure is underwritten by profits from PEMEX, Mexico's oil company. Unfortunately, PEMEX's largest oil field, Cantarell, is in massive decline, according to PEMEX's CEO.
Based on a 1.9Mb/d consumption for Mexico, they will stop exporting oil in five years, say 2012... but, this would cut govt revenue around 7% per year, and shredding what little social infrastructure they have.
The result?
They will walk north.
You think Mexican immigration is bad now? Wait until 2015. I wouldn't be surprised if the USgov set up a 100 yard free fire zone on the southern border, or, they simply let everyone in, and drive the wages in the US down to Mexican levels.
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
There was a lot to dislike about this bill regardless, but NONE of those reasons were why this bill didn't see the light of day... because NO ONE could see the bill in the light of day.
I watched the proceedings on CSPAN2 all yesterday morning, and the fact of the matter was that the bill was a chinese fire drill, and musical chairs being played all at the same time!!
Boxer, Reid and Kennedy were constantly touting and demanding the need for this that and the other thing and immediate passage, and the Republicans kept asking to see the new bill with the amendments incorporated in its entirety, and when they asked for a full vote for the bill to be read before the final vote, one of the three would object... SO BASICALLY THEY WANTED THE SENATE TO VOTE ON A BILL WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT WAS IN IT!! The bill was constantly being rewritten from day to day, know one other than the Democrats writing it, knew what was in it at any given time.
A clear lesson to be learned here is don't believe the soundbites you see in the news regardless of what or who is reporting it... when you see it live and for yourself, you get a wholly different perspective on what is happening in Washington, and it clearly sounds like some shell games are being played here... and apparently in the best interest of a select few, and DEFINITELY NOT what's good for the country!
Good Day,
Juggernaut
A majority of American's are against illegal immigration. A majority of American's are against profiling. So what alternative do you propose to identify legitimate citizens from illegal aliens? Your papers analogies is actually rather weak as a national ID only identifies you are a legal US Citizen. Whereas the point of "papers" in the past was to show where citizens had permission to move to and from and were checked frequently at checkpoints. The police would only be able to ask for it when there is clear evidence of crime. It wouldn't be required to be on your person, you just would for convenience like your driver's license to confirm your identity when needed.
My wife is from China, and while they don't have papers they have to carry around with them, they are not free to just pick up an live wherever they wish. I really doubt this will come to pass even with a National ID.
People always trot out these objections based on knee jerk emotional reactions to abuses in the past. The proposed boarder along our Mexican border gets similar jeers although the reason for its need is exactly the opposite of the reason for the Berlin Wall.
I for one would concentrate on protecting our Freedom of Speech rights (for which you are entitled to your opinion in this) and challenge to you suggest a feasible alternative that safeguards our borders, cuts down on illegal immigration, and possible terrorist activity. I don't live my life in fear of terrorism, but as the husband of Chinese national who has played by the rules and lived apart from my wife for TWO YEARS, I really do chafe at proposals to give illegals a faster easier way in than for those of us playing by the rules.
Maybe without a National ID we will never have another major successful terrorist attack, but I guarantee we will have such an ID in the wake of one.
Letter To Iran
What I had in mind is the people of this country taking over. The government has already been taken over by a small group that is largely ignoring the masses. Does know one remember that September 11, 1991 George H W Bush address congress and spoke of the new world order.
Exactly. A catastrophe is just around the corner. Wait for it. Sometime in our lifetime, our people and government will either have to come to their senses, or they shall collapse. Just wait for it.
It is unconstitutional for the federal government to have a national ID. No where in Article 1 Section 8 of the Constitution does it authorize the federal government to require a national ID.
Libertas in infinitum
OK, so you want me to pay for the retirement and healthcare of ANYONE who can jump a fence, and we're not allowed to keep track of them? But WTF does that have to do with "news for nerds, stuff that matters"... WTF is this site? Some liberal panic room?
What you're missing is that the National ID card would be required in order to have permission (by the Government) in order for you to work.
In otherwords, no national id (which is verified by the Government in real time), no job.
And you thought slavery died after the War between the States (euphasitically known as the "Civil War" - there was nothing civil about it, but I digress). Welcome to the new Corporate Amerika.
Here's an interesting tidbit - the election is coming up. Candidates are talking about issues. How many times, though, have I heard about a candidate being asked where they stand with respect to this issue? Or the insidious patriot act? I'd say the constitutional freedom and the integrity of our government trump just about every other issue they could talk about, especially since they same to talk about the same things every damn election.
That's such a laugh. People called and emailed their senators in droves because of "Real ID". Jesus, what pap. The bill was defeated because the majority of Americans oppose the stealth amnesty bill, period.
> National ID May Have Killed Immigration Bill
Shame it didn't kill Immigration George.
Max.
Yes, we need those people to work the farms, the low-wage pay. But we need the ones who go through the paperwork and years of waiting and struggle just as much, if not more than those who just follow where the work is.
My question is why don't we want a national ID? It seems to me that our social security number has already become a defacto national ID number. Whenever I have to fill out official paperwork, for either governmental things, or even for national corporations or whatever, they all ask for the social security number, supposedly for identification purposes. However, with identity theft rampant, I don't want to give that number away so easily but often the alternative isn't pleasant, so I do it anyway. I wish I had a national ID number which I could give away as easily as my telephone number for identification purposes, knowing that nothing can be done to my financial accounts if someone had only this number, while guarding my social security number as much as I guard my ATM PIN.
The government shouldn't be providing services in the first place. That's the fundamental problem.
Libertas in infinitum
Very well said, that is exactly the reason it failed. I wish I had mod points.
The reason the bill was defeated and the reason why so many people were against it was that the bill would fix nothing.
In general people want the feds to enforce the current immigration laws on the books.
If the feds enforced the current laws, illegal immigration would not be this huge issue.
While it is true that the Western States (and some NE states like Vermont) have laws specifically denying the implementation of the Soviet-style National ID cards, it is untrue that this killed the Immigration bill.
It is far more likely that the backlash from 85 percent of America that disagrees with such things as a doubling of H1-B visas, lack of jail terms for CEOs and execs who hire and subcontract illegal employees, and massive reactions from liberal, moderate, and conservative patriotic Americans of all shapes and types did in this bill.
A number of Senators were directly woken up to how hated this bill was when they went back to their districts and realized in quick polls of local people that they were likely to lose their seats for carrying the corporations water on this issue.
Business has zero votes - only US citizens do. In the end, that is what killed the bill.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
for the Devil sends the beast with wrath because he knows the time is short Let him who hath understanding reckon the number of the beast for it is a human number its number is six hundred and sixty six. *Iron Maiden scream*
This "Grand Bargain" was great for those seeking el-cheapo workers aka (Corporations)and great for Democrats looking to purchase a new hispanic voting block.
A lot of the reaction that helped kill the bill was by Democratic party members who were against it.
The reality is that more than 85 percent of American citizens didn't want this, and corporations have zero votes, no matter how much they astroturf on this issue.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
A broad coalition killed it: AFL-CIO, tech workers, Republicans, Democrats, Americans.
The bill sucked : too many guest workers, too much amnesty, too much total number of immigrants.
Sorry, Libertarians and effete liberals.
Any sort of real comprehensive reform will include and effective national ID like Real ID. Americans support a national id.
National ID Will
Kill Bill
The folk who favor more immigration and amnesty know they can almost certainly do better under the next Congress.
They've only got one more shot with Bush at the helm. If a President gets elected that shares the opinion on this kind of bill with 83% of the electorate, the Congress isn't going to have any luck for 5-9 years, and I'd be shocked if they ever had enough votes to override a veto.
I don't think the bill's supporters realize, though, that Bush wants this to start the process of annexing Mexico.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
How can we as mere voters, get Congress to pass a law allowing only one line item per bill?
1) Lobby for a Constitutional Amendment allowing the Line Item Veto
2) Lobby for public financing of elections
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
You nailed it and I hope those who cry racism or xenophobia would just stop with the FUD. Very few people want to stop all immigration, but a lot want controlled, slow, legal immigration but NO illegals. We already HAD a full amnesty for illegals back in the 80s, it didn't work, they still ignored the laws, both the sneakers-in and the ones who hire them.
Not worth it, it's a slap in the face to the lawful immigrants who follow thew rules, it completely destroys any notion of rational "national security" when you have millions of who knows who roaming around, it degrades an already too low wage scale for the poorer legals in the US, it corrupts the border areas, it forces local governments to assume *huge* property tax increases to deal with sudden explosive growth, which is not even close to being offset by any alleged productivity of the illegals, it brings in all sorts of heinous gang presence (that's the real terrorism in the US, hundred thousand and counting hispanic gang members, some going into the 3rd generation!),there is little assimilation,just demands that everything be in their language or it is "racist", and etc.
And people who support illegal immigration must therefore also support the reasons those folks want to come here, their home countries are run by racist billionaires and entrenched and inefficient bureaucracies. It makes a lot more sense to be in favor of those nations cleaning up their acts, then rewarding them by letting them get away with those sorts of antisocial crimes for generations.
Want to have constructive change? Make the illegals go home and sort their own mistakes out in their own nations, and if that means a "heads on pikes" stage, so be it. Some of those nations like Mexico are long overdue for some social rearranging. Mexico is not a poor nation, it's rich in natural resources, good farmland, two oceans, a willing labor force, etc, it's just run like crap by 200 wealthy families and a pseudo elected government that is really just part of organized crime and the class warfare schism perpetuated by the elite there.
I'm not sure that the objections to the border fence and RealID are the same, or are really being objected to by the same people.
At least that I've seen, a lot of people seem to be against RealID, while also being supportive of robust enforcement of our immigration laws. They (and I include myself in this camp) want our immigration laws enforced, but want it enforced in ways that don't impose upon and potentially make criminals out of many legitimate citizens who don't want to be forced to carry around "papers" all the time, or have to show them to any official on command. People want our immigration law enforced at our borders, with possible incursions 'inland' to attempt to remedy (by which I mean, deport) people who are known to be here illegally.
But in general I think that the two aren't hand in hand. I don't really understand the objections to the border wall, since it seems like a totally unremarkable and obvious solution when you've got people walking across that shouldn't be walking across (I also think that putting the military down there is an obvious solution, too, since defending the nation's borders is a totally legitimate use for the military -- why is it OK to use our military to defend some other country's borders and not our own?). My personal suspicion there is that the opposition is pragmatic rather than philosophical -- there are a lot of agribusiness lobbies that depend on illegal immigrants and don't want anything that makes the labor supply tighter, and a robust border defense would do that. Also, Bush seems to be almost comically cozy with the Mexican President, and the Mexicans obviously don't want any U.S. border defenses, because illegal workers in the 'States are a major source of income for Mexico. (But why we should really care about that is beyond me. Last time I checked, Mexico didn't have a seat in the Senate.)
At any rate, I think it's not at all hypocritical to be against the internal borders that Real ID would create, while also supporting firm control over our external borders, both to the north and south.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Of course Real ID will be implemented. Just watch those resisting states come crawling back to implement Real ID when the feds tie federal highway funds to implementation of Real ID.
e ed_Law).
Don't think they will will do it? Of course they will, because they've done it before. Look no further than 1973 when another administration that fancied itself above the Constitution was in power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Maximum_Sp
Isn't that clever? They take your money then refuse to give it back to you and your community unless you submit to their dictates. The only difference between the federal government and a highway bandit is that the government robs you in broad daylight and gets away with it.
I hope every one of you so-called Republicans out there wake up to what your party has done to our country. But you have a way to redeem yourself. It takes a true patriot to state on national television that those who nonviolently resist the IRS and the unconstitutional federal tax are freedom fighters, not criminals. http://www.ronpaul2008.com/. And you can be certain he will fight tirelessly against Real ID, because he has already been doing so for the past 2 years.
That's what killed the immigration bill. In the real world, no one has yet associated RealID with it. This is about preserving what American culture we have, and not becoming assimilated as our corporate overlords want us to. Who's the biggest advocate for more immigration in the computer industry? Bill Gates. Need I say more? Preserve culture, fight greedy corporations!
Anti-Globalism
Tell me this:
Do you believe there are people who should not be allowed to fly on airplanes?
If so, would you propose we try to keep them off of airplanes? How?
to the immigration issue that would make more people happy than it would piss off. All the solutions that have been brought to the table so far either piss off the anti-immigration crowd or the pro-immigration crowd, usually both. Any solution is going to make some group of people unhappy.
So why not have state-issued green cards? The federal government need only be involved in naturalization and issuance of visas, and in deportation in the case of federal crimes. States could set their own quotas (even to zero if they desire) and issue provisional green cards to foreign applicants. The green card would be valid for employment only in the state of issue, and it would only remain valid as long as the holder continued to file state tax returns (or other documents proving employment, in the case of states with no income taxes). States could set other requirements as they see fit.
The idea of a one-size-fits-all federal solution to immigration just isn't going to fly in a country that includes states as different as Michigan, Iowa, Oregon, California, Massachusetts, and Alabama.
OK, I'll get off the soapbox now.
But, I wanted socialized health insurance!
Hopefully Real ID cards will have a unique number so that they can be used in databases and such. That way we can replace the usage of Social Security Numbers for unique identifiers.
He who said 1,000,000 monkeys on 1,000,000 typewriters would eventually type the great novel, never saw an AOL chat room
My question is why don't we want a national ID? It seems to me that our social security number has already become a defacto national ID number. Whenever I have to fill out official paperwork, for either governmental things, or even for national corporations or whatever, they all ask for the social security number, supposedly for identification purposes. However, with identity theft rampant, I don't want to give that number away so easily but often the alternative isn't pleasant, so I do it anyway. I wish I had a national ID number which I could give away as easily as my telephone number for identification purposes, knowing that nothing can be done to my financial accounts if someone had only this number, while guarding my social security number as much as I guard my ATM PIN.
Look at this this way. For cases where a drivers' license suffices, mal-use/identity-theft is already trivial. National ID won't improve that, since it will be used everywhere.
What can someone do with your license? Well, they could test-drive a car at a dealership, steal it, and cause YOU some "interesting" days... Endless possibilities at a bank... (Although some now ask for 2 forms of ID).
And what I want to know is this: When I do give my SSN, what do THEY do with it? I would think more than just record it and forget it. (Is there some service that companies use to verify/look-up SSN information)? Does the SSA provide special access to companies? Seems to me they could only do a credit check. But then they know a heck of a lot about you (address, credit cards, loans, etc).
Me? I think the solution lies in something like everyone using a something like public encryption for ID.. Merchant supplies random string, your ID encrypts/signs it, and then merchant verifies that your encrypted version is really signed by you (using national database of public keys). [I suppose even the government should not be able to know/store your "private" key, but that probably is not realistic].
If you define "National ID" to mean "the dark side of the collective American psyche" then the headline might be reasonable.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
I suspect it was more like a small percentage of the population actually supports this lawbreaker rewarding act. US loving citizens lit up the senate switchboard.
Where do you want to be, What are you doing to get there.
Perhaps if these childish lawmakers want a new immigration law, then they should enforce the immigration laws they already have.
Just because you can, does not mean you should.
They're just looking for work to support their families and buy some booze and video games on weekends.
ARREST THE BASTARDS THAT HIRE THEM.
Some random latino looking for work isn't a threat to America. The American 'citizen' who is breaking the law and hiring him is directly betraying our laws and our people to save himself some cash. By definition, if Americans refuse to work in your job, you aren't offering enough money for it. That is how capitalism works, and it is the cheapskates hiring illegals who are driving down the living wage and options for advancement for the American poor.
I'm fine with bringing anyone who wants over here to work - legally and for the same wage that I would get at that position, so they can compete on merit, and the price of labor doesn't get driven down. I used to work in construction, and every time just rich jackass complains about how the guys he hired to build his addition don't speak English and messed up his house, but he's hiring them back because "they're so darn cheap" I just want to spit.
Of course, none of this will ever happen because half of Congress will get arrested or lose their gardeners.
Exactly. The Real-ID bill was just icing on the cake.
I think it's hilarious that, instead of Big Biz getting an additional 50,000 H1-B visas for ever, they are going to be losing 50,000 a year. There are 135,000 H1-B holders here at the limit of their visas which were issued back in 2001. And since the limit wasn't extended, it's going back down to 85,000.
That's a whopping 50,000 visa holders who are going to be packing their bags and heading back to India.
Awww. An H1-B visa is the dream of an awful lot of people in India. It seems like the door has been shut. Maybe some of the college students in the U.S. might have a chance at the 150,000 new IT jobs which are suposed to be generated next year.
Goodbye to all you H1-B jerks. Don't let the Department of Homeland Security kick your ass on the way out!
You won't be missed at all. Enjoy life back in your third-world dump.
If you're in North Carolina, please take a moment to read this blog post and then contact your General Assembly representatives:
North Carolina government brags about Real ID compliance
// TODO: Insert Cool Sig
I knew that this bill was going to fail, I don't blame people for supporting Lou Dobbs, the thing here is that I'm not going to leave, no illegal will do that, as I said on a different post hunger is stronger than fear and there's no doubt in my mind that the problem will be worst because we have more of the same, no work verification, no more border agents, no wall, millions of people living, working and doing everything with different names, different ID'S , things will remain the same, I know that I'm doing something wrong but I don't have any other choice. Yes I had a job in Mexico but I was making 500 dollars a month for a full time job, not very nice!! I don't work on the fields and you will never find me outside of Home Depot. I work as an IT manager here in sillicon valley, and yes there are people with college degrees in computer sciences from a 5 year university like me illegally working. (why do you think that I read slashdot) So what am I going to do now?? The same, I will keep working and keep smiling, life it's too short to be worried Peace!!
This passage is widely believed to be code for the ancient Roman emperor Nero. What does this have to do with the Real ID and illegal aliens?
Remember, all whites must forevermore atone for the evils of Spanish, French, and British imperialism in the New World, so all non-whites are entitled to a free college education. Ah, liberals... Why do you hate yourselves so much and seek to make everyone as miserable and wretched as you are?
You loved him when he stood on the floor of the UN and called the President the devil before scurrying back to Venezuela like the little rat he is. How do you like him now that he's silencing opposition, confiscating privately-owned oil fields, talking about a lifetime appointment, and threatening to go nuclear? Ah, you liberals and your socialist wet dreams... Things are a bit messier in the real world than they are in Ivy League lecture halls, aren't they?
The reality is that more than 85 percent of American citizens didn't want this, and corporations have zero votes, no matter how much they astroturf on this issue.
We're almost certain to wind up with some kind of amnesty eventually. The basic alternatives are: do nothing, grant amnesty, or deport 12 million people. Anything else is just a minor variation on these. (e.g., "Deportations for some, miniature American flags for others!")
Now, the voters may strongly dislike the Santa Claus amnesty alternative here, but they would truly hate and despise a Grinch who starts deporting millions... especially when the media starts in with the stories of hundreds of thousands of families broken up by Uncle Sam. The law-and-order sentiment polls well, until you actually begin applying it in real life.
So we will continue to do nothing for the next several years, and perhaps decades. But to do nothing in perpetuum is really de facto amnesty anyway.
Sure, it will cost a few billion up front, but the long-term savings would be enormous
The Economist had an article on this very topic, and I'm afraid that your assessment is wrong.
" In the short term the fiscal burden imposed by illegal immigrants may outweigh the economic gains they bring. In other words, the average native-born American has a higher pre-tax income thanks to the country's "broken" border, but his post-tax income may be slightly lower. All told, Mr Hanson thinks that illegal immigration might cost native-born residents some 0.07% of GDP.
But that net cost, if it exists at all, is clearly less than the price of keeping illegal workers out. Since 2001 Congress has more than doubled the amount of money spent on securing the borders and enforcing immigration laws. Mr Bush's 2008 budget proposes spending $13 billion, or 0.1% of GDP. The senators' plans would be even more expensive. A needlessly cumbersome guest-worker plan and a costly war on gatecrashers are bad ideas--even if you don't give a fig for the welfare of would-be migrants." (Guests v gatecrashers: May 31st 2007, The uncomfortable economics of immigration reform, The Economist)
Ooops. I forgot that you were also talking about the long term costs as well. From the same article.
"Set against this economic gain is a fiscal cost, as immigration's opponents are quick to point out. Illegal migrants, with their low skills and large families, are likely to consume more in government services, such as education and health care, than they pay in taxes. The exact fiscal impact is controversial. The federal government is probably a net winner, whereas states, which pay a bigger share of schooling and emergency health care, lose out. Today's taxpayers may suffer--they must pay for educating the children of illegal immigrants. But tomorrow's may gain--these first-generation Americans will likely earn far more than their parents, adding to the pot of taxes in the future."
I wholeheartedly recommend that US of America quickly implement the federal ID card system for all 300-something million people, because if it is not done an even scarier system will come. You think nothing can be more orwellian than a biometric chip equipped federalized photo ID card but you are wrong, very wrong.
A well-funded israeli-british private startup is already working on a "genetic personal name" technology. The gist is that they are about three years from creating a market-ready desktop rapid DNA-sequencer and about five to six years from a portable terminal version. Their ingenious observation is that 98% of human genome is invariably identical among all 6,3 billion people of Earth so that can be disregarded for purposes of personal identification. The rest, the difference that makes people individuals is quite little data even by today's standards. Within three years that can be sequenced by a 2500USD desktop machine in a matter of minutes (their aim is 2 minutes). The result is then converted by one-way hashing (to prevent abuses) and that hashed genetic result is displayed in an SSH babble-like style format (a meaningless sequence of easy to remember words for user friendly human interpretation and processing).
You may be born John Smith or Jane Doe according to the church register, but your true name, your genetic name is displayed something like: Big Thunder Muddy Lake Bent Arrow Sitting Moose Fallen Cairn - as the company currently uses a scheme quite like native american tribal names, which they think could win popular acceptance easier. From a purely practical point of view following the chinese people's naming system with its many, short members, like Liu Xing Wang Peng Chang whatever would be better, but of course this would be impossible to push down the throat of public in the G8 countries. When you are born your swab will be immediately sequenced right at the hospital and your genetic name put into the birth certificate besides you civilian (baptism) name.
Obviously, the big news is that faking your identity will be impossible. To prove your identity you just have to spit into the swab collector and the machine will inevitably tell your true genetic name. You will be uniquely identified no matter how far away you flee on Earth. If you want a loan from a bank you have to spit and in 2 minutes they will see you are already on bad debtors' list. You wish to cheat wife and bring horny pussycat to a hotel and tell a made-up name to a clerk to deceive a suspected private eye. The hotel calls police because info does not match and so the wife finds out anyhow. You cannot travel on a fake passport as well. You become your own certificate of authenticity, with all the benefits and drawbacks associated to the system.
There are a few unsolved questions however: should the genetic name (the DNA-hash converted into babble) contain any obvious info on race and gender? Currently most, but not all, human names disclose prima facia if you are a girl or a boy, but very few disclose ethnic or racial info. European countries would probably refuse the genetic name system if it presented any race info, due to the nazi past, but USA would likely prefer it, e.g. americans are regularly told the negro or hispano ethnicity of an accused when the police show goes on TV.
Another unsolved question is: should the genetic names babble contain info which allows plain eye recognition of family relations? That is, if you are shown two full babble names and have a basic understanding of the system, should you be able to exclaim: Look these are father and son, even if you never saw them face-to-face? The obvious answer is YES and that may be wrong! For example an estimated 12% (twelve percent) of children in France are NOT from the father who is specified in their birth certificate so it could cause a lot of social turmoil. Another consideration is that many americans, especially the richer clases like to give their kids completely unrelated names, so they can make self on talent rather than fami
I'm a little late to the discussion, but I do have to mention something -- the summary is wrong. In March, REAL ID implementation was postponed to December 2009. That one year is just more time to try and stop it...
And my oh-so-authoritative wikipedia source: REAL ID
"Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies." -Thomas Jefferson
"The bill will not flood our cities with immigrants. It will not upset the ethnic mix of our society. It will not relax the standards of admission. It will not cause American workers to lose their jobs." Ted Kennedy, 1965, in support of the Hart-Celler Act.
"This amnesty will give citizenship to only 1.1 to 1.3 million illegal aliens. We will secure the borders henceforth. We will never again bring forward another amnesty bill like this." Ted Kennedy, 1986, in support of the The Immigration Reform and Control Act
"Now it is time for action. 2007 is the year we must fix our broken system." Ted Kennedy, 2007
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
And also, what about that free market in jobs? If the workforce is unable to freely move, then there is an imbalance of power. Free the people..!
I guess the thousands of calls the Congresscritters got denouncing the bill for providing amnesty to illegal aliens had nothing to do with it.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Or maybe it was just the fact that the American public overwhelmingly resists granting amnesty to the 12 million people whose first action in the country was to snub the law and enter illegally, and the ass-clowns we've elected are concerned that this is a big enough issue to the voters that they feared for their political futures?
Ask not what your developer can do for you; ask what you can do for your developer.
I can think of a dozen American industries that are quite happy with the way things work right now. Including the tech industry.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
Unfortunately, right now there is nothing that is a valid piece of identification in the US that most people have. A Driver's License is a joke. Nobody has a passport.
*Raises his hand*....I have a passport.
the idea of a national database and IDs is horrible- for years now I have been suffering through identity loss.
my SS# comes up invalid on security checks, credit checks etc. I am still valid through the federal gov't but my life has become a pain because it is difficult to find a place to live w/o credit checks, I can't buy a car or a house- I have to get paperwork from SS everytime I start a new job, I can't get a credit card, etc. So what happens when you have to be ID'd at all times with the national database- you fall through the cracks like me and have to be deported to ummm who knows just get out of the country?
No offense but screw that.
I hope the White House complies with the subpoena's because if the judicial can't work anymore and clean out the corruption, Real ID and Immigration ain't going to matter. At which point in time it is time for rebellion anyway. And if we ain't gonna let Mexicans or others come to the United States we may as well get rid of the statue of liberty. We won't need that no more. Na, what this nation needs is an internal police force, to FORCE the White House to comply, to FORCE the security checks, to FORCE border control, to FORCE inspections of the "other 98%" of the cargo at our ports, to FORCE the removal of electronic voting machines. I might be dreaming, but the day you come to me with your un constitutional shit is the day your going to meet your maker (whoever that might be for you.)
You're assuming the US government would allow the mexican people to fix their government. If they did it might severely inconvenience US economic interests in Mexico like controlling the banking system and having US citizens buy the best beachfront property, against Mexico's constitution.
Other big businesses affected: drugs. You constantly hear about yet another Latin American drug lord captured, and in Latin America most people know the names of all the drug lords in their country, but how comes we never hear about the big drug lords in the US? I've read that aroud 90% of the drug money moves inside the US, certainly somebody must be benefitting from this, how can we buy the version that it's only a lot of small street gangs the ones controlling this money?
Guns. Drugs flow north, guns flow south. And lots of them.
So, if lax immigration laws allowed the US to colonize Texas, and a US-backed government allows US corporations and individuals take over Mexico, you shouldn't be whining that millions of Mexicans see moving to the States as their only option. And it's going to get worse because in the past it was poor farmers moving north. Today it's the middle class stampeding to the US to work as masons, nannys, etc. I get my kicks when I hear my American friends saying "but there are changes in the Mexican government now, isn't it?". Well, yes, they changed a group of thiefs by another one.
I'm not saying the US caused the problem in the first place, but it certainly is stopping Mexicans from fixing it. The Mexicans are perfectly capable of fixing their problems given half a chance. And believe me, most of them would rather live in their country and not in a semi-intolerant, racially divided country, that makes it difficult for them to integrate. Not racially divided? Why are there still white, blacks, reds, browns and yellows in the US? All races should have merged hundred of years ago like in Mexico.
Don't get me wrong, I, like Karl Marx, admire the US and its people, but like an illegal alien friend of mine said: "there is much we must learn from the Americans, but there is also much we MUST NOT learn from the Americans"
I think most people like myself that were opposed to this bill were not opposed to it on the basis of the ID card amendment. We just feel that 20 years of broken promises to control immigration was not a good basis to trust more promises from our elected officials. The other side would like you to thing that we are all racists. I am married to a Korean immigrant and my kids are mixed race. I don't hate my wife and kids no matter what anyone would like you to believe. The true racists are the ones that have no problem exploiting immigrants as nothing more than "Cheap Labor". It is not racist to want people to live in the light of day by encouraging legal behavior. Lets increase the number of legal immigrants to this country by 15 or 20 million so that these people can come in and quickly rise up to your level and mine in society instead of relegating them to cleaning toilets and mowing lawns.
Telecommuting! What about socialization?
Please read my reply to the post just above yours; I actually agree with you more than I think you realize. Although I believe in secure borders that doesn't necessarily imply a one-size-fits-all solution. The problems on the U.S./Canada border are entirely different from those on the U.S./Mexico border, as well as the relationship between the countries themselves, and thus I think the solutions will be quite different.
On the northern border, the U.S. and Canada have a lot of mutual interests, both in having secure borders but in also allowing the free flow of ideas, people, goods, and capital; the perceived risk on the northern border, from the U.S. standpoint, isn't from Canada itself, but rather the possibility of Canada acting as an unwitting conduit into the U.S. from less-friendly places. It seems to me as if much of that risk could be mitigated through cooperation.
The problem in the south is that the U.S. and Mexican governments are at odds over a great many things; the Mexican government has goals that are frankly not conducive to U.S. border security. (E.g.: Mexico's economy is dependent on the money that illegal workers in the U.S. send back, and those workers depend on a porous border to get here; on lower levels you have corruption caused by drug cartels who benefit by insecure U.S. borders.) Lacking any basis for an effective cooperative solution that's not highly offensive to people in the U.S. (in other words, one that doesn't involve legalizing drugs or illegal workers), I think the U.S. government has a mandate to act in its citizens' best interest and deploy a more or less unilateral solution.
Although the U.S. and Canada have significant political and cultural differences, I don't really see many of the issues that are leading to calls for a border wall or military deployment on the southern border becoming an issue in the north.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
You're a fucking idiot.
"You're assuming the US government would allow the mexican people to fix their government."
This is by far the most ridiculous, imbecilic point in your entire post. It's not the place of the US to "let" Mexicans do anything. It's the place of Mexicans to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to fix their country.
Your moronic assertions have no merit, and display your victim mentality quite nicely.
It's you and people like you that allow populations to continue to be oppressed. YOU are the problem.
Don't get me wrong, I, like Karl Marx, admire the US and its people, but like an illegal alien friend of mine said: "there is much we must learn from the Americans, but there is also much we MUST NOT learn from the Americans"
Well, there's your problem. If you like Karl Marx you like violence, and you certainly don't admire the Constitution of the US. You see nothing wrong with a group of people being able to use democracy to vote someone else's property to themselves. What today is preventing groups of people from using democracy to steal other groups of peoples' property? Nothing. Illegal immigrants steal from US citizens when they send their kids to school, go to the emergency room, and receive social services. That's the problem. You're an ignorant socialist who uses deceit to downplay your violent thuggish behavior. And that violent thuggish behavior was on display in the illegal immigration protest marches, with the Mexican flags, and the threats to use violent voting democracy to ram more socialist theivery down the throats of Americans. It's the opposite of freedom.
So please stopy LYING saying illegal immigrants just want to work. Perhaps we should force the IRS to grant tax examptions for the cost of illegal immigrants. Say every American gets to write off $10,000 a year in taxes. All business found to be employing illegal immigrants can be subjected to class action lawsuits (suing people is the new American business, don't more lawyers than doctors graduate these days and earn more money too?) I bet you'd see the border enforced damn fast then. But as it is, hospitals are closing down or having resources drained, schools are flooded with overcrowding, and taxes are already too damn high. And the American public saw how those illegal immigrants marched lock step with socialist organizers to threaten the America with more corruption and thievery.
Keep on pretending it has to do with "racism". It's as silly as George Bush sticking his head in the sand and claiming the terrorists "don't like our freedom". But that's what these fringe left elements do, try to incite class envy and race politics.
Or maybe we should just make Mexico the 51st State and fix their economy for them. They've already failed to enforce their own borders and sent an invasion force of 12-15 million people here. Start billing the Mexican government for services received by their citizens. If they don't pay, start annexing Mexican assets to pay for the costs of illegal immigration. Then there's no problem whatsoever with illegal immigrants becoming American citizens.
"From DNA to P2P, we are all Copycats now. Go Go Copycat Power! Copycat Powers activate! Form of, a Copycat." --monxrtr
I didn't like the way they tried to pass this law this time, but I think the law made sense in the general (of course the devil is in the details). I do not think any of the yes votes (or the noes for that matter) mark anybody as a traitor. Certainly not traitors to America. Maybe to the KKK ?
One of the problems of discussing immigration is that there *is* a big element of racism and xenophobia in the anti-immigrant camp. This of course does not make the ideas any less true, but makes it hard to discuss rationally. Of course, most Latinos can't discuss the issue rationally either :)
You stood in line to get her papers, so it is/was not for nothing. We Americans have a right to say who we want in or not, and which hoops they have to jump (or not jump) through. It is NOT against you or anybody if we want to let other people in; in fact, we let Cubans in with very little fuss, why should it be different if we decide to do the same with any other group of people ?
Also, illegals DO pay many taxes, the only ones they *may* avoid is FICA (of which they don't get the benefits) and income taxes (which, usually would be very low or zero if they were legal due to their levels of income). If they use a fake SSN, they usually pay all the taxes, and if they work under the table for a business, then the business pays income tax on that money since they can't deduct it; they only avoid taxes if they work under the table for another person, but many other people do to (including computer geeks who get a little money or food for fixing somebody else's computer)
sorry for replying to my own post :) I re-read it and it can be construed to mean ALL anti-immigration are racists and/or xenophobes. That is not true and is not what I meant.
:)
However, I do think *many* of the anti-immigration people are racists who are hiding behind the 'they're illegal' issue. Of course, many are not
There are other ways to get them to leave than deportation. We could adopt an attrition strategy: punishing employers who hire illegal aliens and denying them all but emergency medical care (and the doctors decide what an emergency is, for once). We could also spur economic development in Mexico by giving the undocumented workers land to farm. Since we have $250 BILLION in uncollected employer fines, we have quite a bit of money to use.
---- "XML is like violence. If it doesn't fix the problem, you aren't using enough."
Using the military to enforce the countries laws is a blatant violation of the Posse Comitatus act.
"The whole text of the relevant legislation is as follows:
Sec. 1385. - Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus
"Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both"."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act
Instead of "native"working people and immigrants fighting we should unite against the corporations who use our fighting and the threat of off shoring to drive wages ever farther down to the point that probably 30% of jobs in the U.S. don't pay a living wage no matter where you are from. THINK people before you react.
Tired of all the isms, don't exploit people as an employer, or a government, mmmmK?
You don't need a REAL ID to marry or vote. Those are state functions, not covered by the REAL ID law.
On the contrary under the wording of that act it simply means a govenor or the president (though the constitution provides power for this) cannot use troops to enforce a law. It says expressly that congress can give authorization and indeed it has done so in the past.
If you are hear illegally because your country of origin sucks, then let people know about it. Why the hell do so many illegals love Mexico but don't care about fixing it even from the outside?
" But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
Repeating the same stupid hyperbole doesn't make it less stupid.
This
"The thing is, ALL of the things I list will be unavoidable."
is a lie.
"All I am saying is that we have to be pragmatic, cool, and reasonable about any action we take."
and lie about the consequences of actions you don't like.
Stop lying.