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Deathbed Confession Says Aliens Were at Roswell
xnuandax writes "The army's explanation of weather balloons in the Roswell, New Mexico incident 60 years ago has been dealt a serious public relations blow. Late Army Lt. Walter Haut had signed a sealed affidavit prior to his death last year asserting that he had witnessed the wreckage of an egg-shaped craft and its extraterrestrial crew while working at the Roswell Army Air Field. An article at News.com.au reviews how Haut had worked as public relations officer for the Roswell base and was involved in the original weather balloon explanation of events at the time. This recent evidence would seem to confirm speculation that egg-shaped saucers are notoriously difficult to fly safely at low altitude."
As much as I want to believe aliens are among us, it just doesn't make sense that a civilization advanced enough to cross interstellar space would crash in New Mexico. And the chances of aliens being humanoid in appearance are close to zero.
A-Bomb
It is not like this affidavit is going to change the world or anything. There is absolutely no proof. It just sells newspapers and adds fire to crackpot theories. Even if there was extraterrestrial life, I would not want to know about, or even let any of the crazy people in this world know about it. The reaction would not be good. Humanity is not ready yet.
the craft's name was 'Humpty Dumpty'?
Serving time in Aristotelean prison for violating laws of physics
He probably died laughing behind his teethes.
THEY WERE FROM ORK
It is better to be the hammer than the anvil.
I want to believe.....
That being said... the U.S. government is remarkably inept at keeping secrets much less orchestrating a cover up of this size.
Same is true of most conspiracy theories.
He was the founder of the International UFO Museum and Research Center in Roswell, NM. I think that makes it necessary to take his death bed statement with a grain of salt.
At this point, unless his affidavit leads to compelling and PUBLIC evidence, it doesn't matter whether it was a deathbed joke or and earnest confession. It will come to nothing more than a Discovery Channel episode.
Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.
You gotta admit, a deathbed confession deisgned to perpeutate a myth would be pretty funny. I'd be laughing all the way to the mortuary, if it were me...
This was posted on digg, and as someone pointed out, Haut also ran a UFO museum. So .. yeah .. no ulterior motives ..
.. who knows. It just a bit odd. Other military people have come forward, including a high ranking general (who released a book). The general claimed all our current technology came from UFOs. Such as the night-vision goggles. This is a fairly outrageous claim even for someone with a rudimentary understanding of electronics.
A simple google search gives one of many such links:
http://www.tucsonweekly.com/tw/07-20-95/cover.htm
Not to say that's the only reason he did that
It's not that I think aliens are impossible. I just am highly suspicious that they'd sneak about so much. Or that our government could keep anything a secret for so long. And crackpots coming out with books on UFOs does not count as the leaks.
Hear! Hear!
You can't keep anything secret for 60 years.
The most recent vast government conspiracy is of course that GWB et. al. Either orchastrated, or allowed to happen and then embellished, 9/11. Of course, all of this hinges on a grand conspiracy being meticulously carried out by Bush Administration. I'm sorry. But THIS adminstration? The adminstration that brought you Iraq and Katrina? I'm sorry, but we've seen the MO for this adminstration and competence, just isn't it.
Dying Man Has Perverse Sense of Humor
A drop of water is the same shape in any atmosphere (relative to temperature and gravity), so who would argue that people wouldn't kinda take the same basic shape anyway? If they crashed, the idea they were of higher intelligence sheds new light on theories of their conquering ways. They came to Earth likely to give us an intergalactic hug and US air force likely shot them down, thinking they were Russians.
... ... We're all stupid!!
Boy were they surprised!
The mystifying result of that accident sheds light on the nature of the universe itself...
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
I thought we had already established that it was the Ferengi?
"Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket." -- Eric Hoffer
I disagree, I think there are significant chances they would be somewhat humanoid if they existed. If they move around on land, they most likely need legs to do that. They might have more, but two is the minimum so they might have two. To make tools they need manipulative parts, and they could end up with two there. They would work better if they're up off the ground and a geared more towards fine control rather than being robust enough to walk on. Biology and evolution seem to favor bilateral symmetry, so they would probably have even numbers of limbs at least.
Also, sensory organs would usually work best when they're high up off the ground and able to turn in different directions, so I wouldn't be suprised if they had something resembling a head.
why the affadavit, which has been "released", is not printed in any of the articles?
"This recent evidence would seem to confirm speculation that egg-shaped saucers are notoriously difficult to fly safely at low altitude."
I'm curious just where this speculation was forwarded. Is there some UFO magazine with articles like "Egg Shape Saucers -- How Easy to Fly" or "Egg shaped versus conventional Plate shaped, which Flying Saucer is right for your intergalactic traveling needs?" or better yet is Consumer Reports planning a Fly Saucer Safety issue? "Flying Saucer Roll Over Crash Test Results -- Egg Shaped Models perform poorly"
Letter To Iran
The most recent "vast government conspiracy" has to do with GWB and friends hijacking the US Constitution, lying to the world to lead the US into war with Iraq, providing bid-free billion-dollar contracts to close friends, and declaring the Vice-Presidency is outside the law.
I mean, who could believe *that*?
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Seriously folk, why should we listen to people on their death bed or to voices from beyond the grave? Do we really think that when people have nothing to lose or are dead they somehow get enlightened and honest?
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Eggs can fly, as long as they're in a 3oz or less container.
rewriting history since 2109
There is no way they could keep a secret of this magnitude and cover it up for 60 years.
... keep a secret secret? Is it possible that we wouldn't have heard about it?
Ok, let me get this reasoning straight.
a) There's no way that the government could keep a secret that long.
b) How do we know that there's no way that the government could keep a secret that long?
c) Because if the government tried to keep a secret that long we would have beard about it.
Just for the sake of argument, what if the government managed to... um
(especially if they used secret alien technology to keep it secret!)
Three Squirrels
How many times did we crash on mars once we made it all the way there? And that was not even something complicated enough to carry creatures. Shit happens in space..At least it always seems to the case when I go. ;)
When translated the banner said "Mission Accomplished". That confirms it. The crew were actually Americans from the future.
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Senator Carl Schurz (1872)
> Just because he made a sworn affidavit does not mean that the man really saw something.
> As scientists have demonstrated, this might easily be something he created and believed himself.
Yup. re: Dr. Elizabeth Loftus, U. Wash. She's the most sought after expert on real- and false-memory creation. Bottom line, all memory is reconstruction, not retrieval. It's never perfectly accurate (vivid =! accurate) and so even when "correct" is only at least good enough, not "true". People can be made to "recall" a lot of stuff, by others, thesmelves or context/situations.
I was pointing more at what people will or will not believe about what the guy said, not what he "remembered".
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
The whole problem, in my mind, with the Roswell "conspiracy", is the part that has a flight of P-51 Mustangs shooting down a spacecraft capable of travelling at intersteller speeds. As good as the P-51 was back in its day, it would be almost miraculous for one of these planes to shoot down a modern jet aircraft such as the F-22 or the EF-2000. Obviously, the technology required for manned interstellar space flight is easily 50 - 100 years beyond what we have now, and so, the claim seems utterly foolish. In any case, if an interstellar ship could reach the earth once, why wouldn't they have sent a rescue party looking for their fallen comrades?
This is my sig.
Ok, I'll play your silly game if you just want to throw the truth out because you don't like it. It wuz aliens. Seriously, as an ex Gulf War I crew chief on A-10s there is little doubt in my mind that they are flares dropped from A-10s. That is *exactly* what flares look like from a great distance that are dropped from an A-10. The kind of flares I am talking about are not roadside flares but they are much much bigger and brighter and descend on parachutes. They are used to light up a battle field and they do a mighty fine job of it. I saw show on television where they superimposed actual video footage of the lights over a daylight shot of the mountain range from the exact same perspective that the video was shot from. The "lights" disappeared one by one on the video at the same point they would have dropped below the peak of the mountain (the flares were dropped on the other side of the mountain). Really, the glove fit perfectly.
If you don't believe me here is some more:j an/m26-005.shtml
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2007/
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4041
Big deal 1 guy admits it, the video below shows 22 of 400 senior Government, NASA, Airfoce & other top Military personel admitting it on National/International television that aliens are real & Gov has been hiding it.
The Disclosure Project:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vyVe-6YdUk
Yeah it's almost 2 hours long, but it will blow your mind!
I wonder how much longer they can keep denying the more than obvious.
Nuff said.
Adeptus
No trees were killed in the making of this post; however, many trillions of electrons were horribly inconvenienced.
I believe the first F-117 Stealth (invisible to all high tech anti-air defenses) was brought down over Serbia by an AK-47. The Pentagon story is it was brought down with an SA-3 with a hacked radar, but either way a primitive tool brought it down.
The closest star is some 4 light years away, the next one is about 10 or 12, I am not sure. Then it goes up. Lets say they are relatively on our doorstep on a star less than 50 light years away, we still have another 3 years before they will learn their aircraft was shot and about 53 years to get the war declaration message, providing we are able to receive it. And I'd say that around 70 to 100 years before their fleet shows up :)
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
Suffice it to say that a Lieutenant is not exactly going to be high on the "need to know" list.
This is a hoax.. no aliens at Roswell..
Why can't our clever cephalopods put their smelters above water?
Not if you use rocks, which incidentally were the first tools used on land, and which are are even now used by semi-aquatic nonhumans. You can progress beyond that using glasses, crystals, and composites.
He also swore an affidavit in 1993. It is very similar: http://roswellproof.homestead.com/Haut.html. These seem to be things he believed. I recall when Stanton Friedman http://www.stantonfriedman.com/ stayed as a guest at my home when I was a kid. He'd worked with my father, also a nuclear physicist, before and came to give a lecture on UFOs. He also believed what he was saying. I think you need to look for explanations that do not rely on impuning motive in some of these cases.
1 567311210/ref=sr_1_1/105-3124676-0728448?ie=UTF8&s =books&qid=1183345880&sr=1-1 s -selling-solar.html
I'm not one to want to leave behind the delicious contemplation of the Fermi Paradox http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox, so I wait for stronger evidence, but there are many sincere people who are quite sure they've experienced something that can only be explained in this way: http://www.disclosureproject.org/.
I think Carl Jung took an interesting stab and an alternative explanation in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Saucers-C-G-Jung/dp/
--
Get solar power the easy way: http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-user
So for such a claim to NOT be outrageous, you'd have to also claim a vast conspiracy of scientists all over the world through the decades, sitting on most of their findings while publishing just enough to give an incremental step for the next breakthroughs. Or you'd need the aliens to be directing this, handing out tiny little tidbits of information to the scientists, and either swearing them to secrecy or using some sort of mind control on them. So yes, it is quite outrageous.
On the other hand, if next week some scientist produced working plans for a fusion generator that used a grand unified theory totally different than any proposed, now THAT would be what it would take to not be an outrageous claim of getting outside help.
However, we're only scratching the surface when it comes to solving the general relativity equation. For instance, one solution of the GR equation consists of a wormhole that allows one to exit this universe into... who knows? One possible solution is extensible, allowing a hypothetical space traveller to travel into a completely different universe, or potentially a different region of our own universe. Some solutions are so bizarre that causality is violated, e.g. the solution of the spinning charged black hole, which has a ring singularity and a region where "time" becomes circular and loops back on itself. Admittedly, some of these solutions are considered "unphysical", but it's not clear yet why they are unphysical, what prevents them from happening. It's not even clear that they are impossible yet. All we know is that there is some truly bizarre stuff out there and we don't understand it all.
Sadly, though, if a traveller did ever manage to survive going through such a wormhole, the GR solutions appear to indicate that there is no way back... but as you can imagine, none of this is certain as yet. Maybe there are terms in the GR eqn that are missing. Maybe a theory of quantum gravity would prevent any of this from happening. Who knows?
"As much as I want to believe aliens are among us, it just doesn't make sense that a civilization advanced enough to cross interstellar space would crash in New Mexico."
Maybe the contract went to the lowest bidder?
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
>Haut then tells how Colonel Blanchard took him to "Building 84" - one of >the hangars at Roswell - and showed him the craft itself. I think it's unlikely that the base commander would show something this top secret to a lowly press officer. Think of it this way, suddenly a UFO shows up, the Feds charge you as the Base Commander to clean up the site, hide the UFO and bodies and most of all, try your best to minimize the number of possible leaks of this information. So you're not going to go out of your way and show the stuff to the base press officer. He has no need to know, it would be better for you to feed him the same cover story as he's going to give the press.
I'm ready. I'd bet you're ready. But most of humanity is not.
Three out of four Americans are Christians, and they're definitely not ready. So are most other people of faith - since little green men from Tau Ceti would pretty much blow their creation stories out of the water.
It would be instant chaos. Three out of four people...or more, depending on what part of the world you're from. Suddenly, the foundation and moral code they've all built their life on - is provably false. And therefore...gone. They would go nuts.
If these guys are smart enough to cheat physics and be here, they're probably smart enough to not go public. As a species, unfortunately...we couldn't handle it. Which is a real bummer for me, personally. I'd like to meet them if they're around. I've got nothing to lose, it wouldn't change my world views by very much at all. But for most other folks it would be simply too traumatic.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Organized religion as we know it would probably crumble
You mean kind of like how, in the face of proof of things like how the universe didn't revolve around the earth, the Catholic Church changed its views on cosmology.
Oh wait. No, they opted for things along the lines of killing the people who presented the evidence instead. My bad.
*Never* underestimate the lengths that people in power will go to in order to remain in power.
Everything I need to know I learned by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Many of the accounts of the crash site at Roswell and the parts recovered claim that there was a metal that despite being super thin, was flexible and impervious to damage. Ok... if they really had such a material, how the heck did the craft crash and scatter debris? If the material was that good, how did it come apart? I'd love to believe, but that part in particular has always made me a bit skeptical of the whole incident.
today is spelling optional day.
Clearly, the only way we're going to get to the bottom of this is have the FAA do a full inspection on the flight-worthiness of egg-shaped saucers.
Back in the 1980s, when the Transcendental Meditation people were claiming to teach levitation, someone asked the FAA to investigate TM as an "unlicensed flight school". The FAA actually replied, stating that FAA jurisdiction begins at 50 feet above ground level (hovercraft are thus regulated as ground vehicles), and that the TM people appeared unable to achieve sufficient altitude.
This got some publicity, and embarrassed the TM people, who stopped selling "levitation seminars". Especially after someone established that their pictures of people levitating in lotus position were achieved by bouncing on a trampoline.
I for one welcome our new...
Ah, shit.
You are correct that you really don't get hard evidence for alien spacecraft visiting Earth from watching the Disclosure Project. However, if you take the evidence that people present, from radar evidence to fighter jet scrambles to cover-ups from high-up in the chain of command, you begin to see that the world's governments and militaries are putting a lot of effort and energy into making sure that the laypeople remain ignorant and unaware of *something* that is happening in the skies and space.
The most skeptical conclusion I can come to is that they don't really understand it -- it could be something weird like ball lightning that appears and acts like vessels -- but so far, it hasn't proved harmful or out of control enough to warrant the need to explain it to the public. The job of the military and government is to protect us. Actually, it's more than their job -- the psychological need of human beings to think that somebody is out there, protecting us from dangers, is what has allowed the institutions of military and government to exist since the dawn of humanity. People *need* the government and military, or else they would be out there all on their own in the Big Scary Universe, psychologically speaking. If the common person found out that there was some phenomenon out there that the government or military really didn't understand, but could be potentially dangerous, people would lose faith in our societal institutions. And the people in charge would fall out of power -- or at the very least, there would be a big shake up. This is why they're covering it up. Space aliens or ball lightning, it means they will have a hard time winning the next election.
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
-- Pablo Picasso
For example, we could have a NVG as early as 1930 because you could use the early iconoscope to capture IR light below the visible power and amplify it as much as you want. That's what TV does, basically, and it is not a surprise that some camcorders are IR-capable.
But that NVG would weigh 200-300 lbs and wouldn't be exactly portable. To make it portable you need to advance the technology quite a lot. First portable NVGs were still vacuum tube based, but implemented in a very smart way, as a series of long parallel holes in a glass plate. The front edge, facing the field, would receive the picture, produce electrons, those electrons would then be accelerated within all the tubes and when they hit the end, facing you, the light would be both visible and bright. That worked like a "bug eye" - once the picture is focused it is transferred as if through a bunch of fibers, just with amplification.
With semiconductors you can create far fancier, and more efficient NVGs. But we, as a society, made every single step of this path, and it is proven beyond doubt how exactly each step was made, by who (scientists like to publish!) and who stepped on shoulders of those giants and made the next advance, etc. etc.
As other people mentioned, if you show me a working time machine, or a fusion battery of CR2032 size, or an FTL drive, then I may want to consider the idea of external help - just because no human on this planet has a foggiest idea about how to even approach any of those challenges. But the problem is that every known invention on this planet is 100% traceable to its origins, and origins of those origins, recursively.
Simple. Their magnetic bottle lost containment. Titanium may be tough (at the right thicknesses, etc) but when the jet it's attached to goes kerplooey, you don't see pristine sheets of the stuff spanging off the ground.
:P
Just because WE can't find a means of damaging, distorting, or otherwise rending a material doesn't mean the forces it contained weren't great enough to do so.
Convergent evolution is very well established though. Consider dolphins and sharks - their common ancestors are further back than when pre-dolphins started living in the water, but both have developed similar hydrodynamic shapes and move through the water by wriggling their bodies. The most interesting bit is that although both creatures move using the same principles, sharks wriggle side-to-side while dolphins wriggle up-down. It is reasonable to expect that useful adaptations will be developed independantly since there are only a few good solutions to most problems.
Eyes are another good example - they've been independantly developed several times, but there are only a couple of sensible ways to make them so unrelated eyes still usually look the same. Not always of course, I think octopi use a pinhole camera eye rather than a lens eye.
.evom ton seod gis eht
Why should we expect aliens flying spacecraft to be more competent than humans driving cars or flying small personal aircraft?
There is no evidence that the roswell craft assuming it existed was anything more than a small landing craft
quite possibly incapable of interstellar flight. Likewise most human being flying on space shuttle or commercial
aircraft could not pilot the craft to literally save their life.
Also they said the amterial with thin and tough. They didn't say they tried to hit it with a hammer to bend it, or blow it up or melt it.
Also there's no telling how hard the ship hit.
Indeed. -A ship which may well have been moving at speeds several orders of magnitude greater than any human jet was capable of at the time.
-FL
Need to know what? UFO's weren't classified in the 1940's. They were new and weird. The military and political structures of the day were making it up as they went with regard to the super-paranoid secrecy structures we are so familiar with today. That's why the Roswell staff made the decision to broadcast to the world that they had retrieved a crashed flying saucer. They didn't have standing orders not to.
--And I imagine that if you work on a dull little air training base in the middle of nowhere, when something like a crashed UFO enters your life, you might consider it awe-inspiring and important to all humans on the Earth. You might think that the rational thing to do would be to share news of it with the world. The gues at Roswell weren't paranoid presidential military advisors. They were Air Force working stiffs posted in the middle of nowhere on a boring little training base.
Of course, when the brass from the important parts of the military showed up, they put an end to that. The gears of secrecy had been beginning to turn in Washington for a few years with regard to UFO's, and though there was no official doctrine at that point, when a UFO crashed in your backyard, the government had enough paranoid minds at the top to know it was in their best interest to lock everything down tight. So the Roswell staff was forced to officially retract the original story and replace it with the tin-foil balloon thing.
-FL
I believe the first F-117 Stealth (invisible to all high tech anti-air defenses)
The "Stealth" planes are one of the greatest examples of why there are no advanced Alien Technologies. The F-117 is very visibile to most modern high-tech anti-air defense radar, its just a smaller bleep than it should be which makes it slightly trickier. This makes it difficult for crap 20+ year old radars to see it, e.g. the ones that the French, US and Brits sold to Iraq. If the F-117 was actually invisible to radar then they wouldn't be flying it at 30,000ft all the time.
If the US really does have alien technology and it led to the F-117 I'd really suggest complaining back to the "superior" race that invented it.
Now Stealth Ships however tend to work because they build on the radar clutter that the sea causes thus making the ships nearly impossible to make out from the background noise.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
I will confess to being an Illuminati agent, to know who killed JFK, to have befriended the yeti, to know the warehouse where the moon landing set is stored, to be frequent visitor to Atlantis and to have the exact coordinates that lead to the centre of the Earth. After all, if it's in my affidavit and I'm not around to answer questions, it must be true. Right?
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
This little logic loop is one of the sillier and yet most effective ones in circulation amongst the sceptic crowd.
Here's the way out of the, "People can't keep secrets" trap. . .
It's true; people really can't keep secrets. There are leaks all the time. This article is just such an example. But so what? The military industrial complex has installed a failsafe to catch these leaks. It has gone to massive effort to teach everybody from a very young age that only losers who don't get laid believe in conspiracies, UFO's do not exist, James Randi is not an ego-maniacal twit, your highschool science teacher was not just repeating the same crap they taught him, and that the material universe is the beginning and the end of everything you ever need to know.
With all of that programming in place, when a leak does happen, (like the one in this very article), people climb over each other to rationalize it and ignore it.
How clever is that? Programming the inmates to keep themselves locked up. It's genius.
Interestingly, the slashdot crowd is more apt to falling for this trick because special attention is placed upon them; they're the ones with the brains to work everything out, so you have to make sure they are good and programmed. It's baked into the school system on many levels, one of the most poignant being where jocks are rewarded for bullying the geeks, the cheer leaders would never love a geek, and so the geeks are shunted away from relevance on a deeply emotional level. And so they retaliate by being smart and fearing being laughed at and seeking approval from teachers and authority figures. Any subject which taps this programming, (like UFO's,), simply cannot be argued with just reason. There's huge emotional baggage preventing rational thought from prevailing. --You have to deal with deeply buried emotional trauma and self-worth issues. Believing in UFO's gets you ridiculed, and ridicule means you will never be loved. That's emotional wall #1. It offends the science teachers, who the geeks turned to for emotional validation, so that's emotional wall #2. Two big emotional walls will not be breached with reason alone.
Unless they shed the programming, geeks maintain pretty much a permanent handicap when it comes to TV talking heads lying to them; (talking heads who speak with authority in the same warm-fuzzy tones felt in the, "Isn't Science Nice" stage of programming in the school system).
So realistically, even if Lieutenant Walter Haut had left a movie reel of an alien being cut open, or bits of space metal in with his testimonial, the truth would still be rejected if the Military Industrial Complex did not want it to be accepted, which they don't.
Not until the warm-fuzzy talking TV heads, the school teachers, and the sex-drive of teen-age girls are radically altered, will such ideas become 'real'. And thus, between the church and the science teacher, you have your population under a level of control which allows you to dictate to it what it actually chooses to think and believe.
-FL
A man about to die swears under penalty of law that he saw aliens. He then dies before any such legal penalty could possibly take effect. In other words, the affidavit adds absolutely no authority to these claims. But let's explore the highly unlikely possibility he's telling the truth.
If what this guy is saying is true - the events and observations he lists - then his conclusion that these were aliens from outer space can almost certainly not be true.
His claims are pretty consistent with the standard alien conspiracy theory:
1) Egg-shaped machine flying featuring no external features we currently associate with flying vehicles
2) Said machine was either taken down by our own fighters or malfunctioned and crashed
3) Machine was built of incredibly strong light metal
4) Creatures that are basically humans with certain features pronounced are found dead
IF all of this really happened, then it is incredibly, highly, amazingly statistically unlikely these dead creatures were aliens.
1) If the craft was shot down, why in the world would a craft so advanced that it flies 3x the speed of our best planes, in our atmosphere without any clear method of flight and with super-strong metal not survive attacks by such old US planes? Such a ship would either survive or at the very least escape.
2) Why in the world would the aliens look humanoid? It's arguably unlikely they'd even be carbon-based, they may not even be primarily solid (they could be cells of gases for example). It's nearly impossible they'd be in any way similar in size or shape to us.
The most damning part of #2 is the "like us" problem - it's essentially the same basic reason to question any God hypothesis - because nearly all God descriptions say God is essentially humanoid, which is very self-centered to assume that something so completely foreign and powerful should look anything like us. Both God and these aliens are as statistically likely to look like The Flying Spaghetti Monster as they are us, but more importantly they are MUCH more likely to look as strange as a floating cobble of spaghetti than they are to look familiar to us.
Since statistically this conclusion is so unlikely to be true we need to consider the observations and find an alternate explanation.
Statistically speaking, if we ever did find alien life it would be at a technological state nowhere near our own - so either way, way behind us (we found bacteria!) or way, way ahead of us. They got here so they're not that way behind us kind - so they must be leaps ahead of us. Not hundreds or thousands of years of technology but millions or billions of years ahead of us. Not the kind we shoot down with some crappy planes.
But what does suit this set of observations is a very different conclusion: That the ships observed were ourselves, perhaps 1000 years in the future, experimenting with time travel. They appear, the vessels fail or, not being designed for war (and not having interstellar capability) are shot down, and the dead people inside are what we have evolved to look like.
Whether time travel is actually possible is up for debate, and these observations are obviously dubious, but IF you are to accept this dying man's final words, then you cannot possibly conclude he saw aliens from outer space. He more likely saw our future selves.
Why is the only mention of this in an Australian paper and on a Roswell website? And, if you had such a document, wouldn't you scan it and make the scans available?
:-)
Yeah. I thought so.
Oh, and the reason the "egg" had no control surfaces, windows, etc?
It was an escape pod.
(open the pod bay doors, please, Hal)
Well, to play devil's advocate, who is history's greatest engineer? Probably Archimedes. Now take a piece of hardware that embodies a good selection of modern technology. Since this is slashdot, let's say an iPhone. Drop it out a 10th floor window, pick up the remains and shoot it back through a time machine to Archimedes' house, say around 232 BCE.
There is little doubt he would recognize it as a piece of advanced technology, from the materials alone. Yet, exactly how likely is it he'd glean anything that would be useful in repelling the Romans invaders who killed him twenty years later?
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
In my mind, they didn't crash or get shot down, but rather suffered a containment failure or other catastrophic equipment failure on one of their craft.
If this technology weren't cutting edge or experimental, we would likely have seen a lot more of these things by now. Where are the alien opportunists, for example, if just any of them can hop in an egg and land here? No, if it is at all possible that the Roswell incident happened as described here, we're not looking at an accomplished, routinely-travels-to-earth species. Rather one like we were at the earliest crossings of the Atlantic.
I also think that this could be why we're not seeing more and more reports of these types of incidents. This one was a fluke, and had almost nothing to do with the military being there (except perhaps some alien tourism...)
First off, who says they were aliens. Just because in the last 24,000 years we've had the planet to ourselves as the sole suriving species in the Homo genus doesn't make that normal. For more than 80% of our 130,000 year existence on this planet, we've shared it with other intelligent hominids. Now consider that the oldest civilization from which we can draw a line to our modern civilization would be the Egyptians. From the time agriculture was introduced to Egypt to our modern level of technological development is a mere nine thousand years, or scarcely seven percent of our species existence. And there is little reason to believe this is an exceptionally short developmental time -- quite the contrary. Humans did not even have the chimney until late medieval times. Imagine how things would have been different if movable type had been invented in Roman times.
So it's quite possible to imagine another homo species, perhaps with a little head start, perhaps with a little more brain power, perhaps with a little more luck, producing a civilization far in advance of ours at a time when we did not have writing. And since a technologically advanced civilization has less need for raw human muscle power, their fertility rate would be low. They'd have been like distant gods to us.
Assuming the large headed "aliens" were in fact humans of a different species, the "alien" craft would actually be terrestrial. Since these craft started appearing around the mid 20th century, it is reasonable to assume that they are indeed space exploration craft, possibly sent out to explore a nearby star system with a crew in suspended animation.
The crash is likewise easily explained. The returning craft rendezvous in orbit, but find no trace of the Atlantean civilization that sent them. Patrols are sent out around the globe which is swarming with tiny headed barbarians. One of the patrols comes upon the Sphinx, and the dread news flashes out to all the ships in the flotilla. "You Maniacs!" cries one of the pilots, "You blew it up! Ah, damn you! Anubis damn you all to Ammit!" He commits suicide by crashing his vessel.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
The original post said that he could see the US military shooting down such a space craft. I was pointing out that odds of a shoot down where about zero. A crash due to mechanical failure of course possible but I would say unlikely but possible.
My best guess as to what was at Roswell if it wasn't weather ballon.
I think it was a failed test of an ME-163. The US captured several but claim that they never did any powered tests of one. They where egg shaped. Could look like a saucer at the correct angle. And if you where flying one with fuel and it crashed you wouldn't look very human when they found you. The fuel was very nasty stuff.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
And just because someone is firing a shotgun at your steamship doesn't mean your boiler can't independently fail and explode.
I think you're right about the early-explorer thing -- just look at where Earth is on the galactic map. The only way we could be closer to bumfuck nullspace is to leave the galaxy entirely. Why the hell would anyone come clear out here?
1) Explorers
2) Refugees
3) Fleeing criminals
And remember, our little radio envelope, only a couple hundred light years across, is but a grain of sand on a remote beach. Someone *might* trip over it, but odds are against it.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
hm.
but there are many incidents of unidentified aircraft appearing over white house, hovering high, and then vanishing speedily when jets take up to intercept, just about the time of the roswell incident.
me 163 is an aircraft thats impossible not to identify. its basically a burning stick, with a very low maneuver capability. its reported that such craft can do 90 degrees turns while going over 3000 km/hour speeds without any slowing down.
Read radical news here
What makes you think aliens are necessarily any "better" or even particularly different? In fact, it's far more likely that any aliens wandering this far out (being we're on the wrong side of the galactic tracks) WILL be aggressive.
Exploration is a function of aggression. Maybe not overtly, but the ultimate object of exploration is expansion for your species, whether for living space, resources, or whatever.
In fact, failure to proactively defend our planet MIGHT be interpreted as CEDING our planet to said aliens.
We just don't KNOW. But it's foolish to assume that just because someone is exploring the Far Reaches of the Galaxy, that they necessarily come in peace and friendship. We need only look at ourselves for an example, and there is absolutely NO reason to believe that human behaviour is all that unique.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Just kidding :)
But seriously my grandmother it pushing 80 years old at this point. If you just met her you would think she is a completely normal person. She walks around, talks coherently, cooks, etc, just normal old age things like needing to use the bathroom a whole lot and being a little slower and not the best memory any more. But if you get to know her really well like me, well then there is another story. She told me a while back she murdered her first husband. If you had not known her well that would have truly bothered you but consider that a month ago she told me that she was on a walk and saw a purple faced boy with bangs (yes the haircut) that she knows has been murdering and raping old women in the area.
So I am just saying sometimes the mind of an old person become swiss cheese and you really can't believe much of anything they say unfortunately.
For what it's worth, I attended New Mexico Tech (not too far north of Roswell) in the early 1980s and as part of a paranormal psychology class I wrote a paper on the Roswell Incident. For that paper I interviewed one of the physics teachers at the school WHO LAUNCHED THE WEATHER BALLOON THEY FOUND. He showed me dozens of letters he had written over the years to authors of various UFO books explaining the science project he had attached to the balloon, showing pictures of it, etc. Of course his side of the story was never printed by any of them.
Just want everyone to know, it is impossible to make any aircraft "stealth" to all frequency ranges. Mind you that an aircraft must use some metal parts (conductors) as parts of the engine. The bigger the metal part the lower the frequency it reflects. The lower the frequency, the harder is to hide it from the radar beam.
The "facts" I know ( and You will have to believe me on that )
1. The radar was "hacked". It was an vintage radar working on VHF or UHF range.
2. The F-117A was flying low.
3. The F-177A was hit by an manually guided missile. There was no direct hit.
4. The aircraft crashed down and burned down almost completely because the Serbian soldiers that came to the site did not want / did not have an order to put the fire out.
The guy that hacked the radar was my high school friend. He said to me that the main issue with the hacked radar was slow scan time. That made guiding the missile tricky.
The other friend of mine that was in the vicinity of the F-117A crash site and came to it said that aircraft was damaged by gunfire ( AK-47 for sure ) but the main damage was due to blast and large shrapnel's. The soldiers had an order to guard the crash site and they just let the wrecked plane burn down. Shit happens when one lives in Serbia.
The point of this story is that the primitive tools can bring down high tech systems if they are unexpected.
Back to topic:
1. The article mentions the egg-shaped alien craft. This is quite odd. I taught aliens have the saucer shaped crafts. Or saucer-shaped was Nazis craft.
2. What kept this guy silent for years ?
3. The mentioned craft was rather small. Could it be an escape pod from the larger craft ? If it is where is the big one ?
4. The whole Roswell story looked like an US military cover up for the spying program. Aliens fit in there like a perfect decoy. Now some old pa says it was the aliens.
PS
The Roses are red, the Violets are blue, in Serbian aerospace hacked radar brings down F-117@You!!!
I'm not going to play "clashing definitions" with you. The fact of the matter is that this represents new information from an inside source. You can choose to believe or to not, but the leak, whistle-blower, informant, whatever you choose to call him, obviously exists. He's sixty years late, but that doesn't change the fact that he is in a position to know. He's the one who researched and authored the original press release wherein the military at Roswell announced that they had recovered a crashed flying saucer.
Why do I say this? Because if he had this information, and really felt the need to share it, he would have done so sooner. Instead he waited until it was impossible for the consequences to matter. That's all the proof I need.
You can make a statement like that and call my reasoning moronic? You know nothing about this man or how he worked. How can you possibly make any kind of statement about how he would or would not react to the influences in his life and what those reactions mean with regard to the validity of the information he is passing on? You can't, plain and simple. From my perspective, I can see a lot of sense in his approach; while alive, as you point out, he was available to pay the consequences for not towing a military secret. How does that do anything to take away from his testimony? Your reasoning is broken.
And calling his motives "ulterior" is even worse. That's a huge, baseless assumption and judgment based on what appears to be a strong dogmatic bias on your part.
And save that "you've been programmed" crap. It makes sense when you're sitting around your dorm room stoned, but in the light of reason, it's just vacuous. The only thing I've been programmed to do is seek REAL evidence, and this ain't it, not by a mile.
First of all, I don't take drugs. Secondly, the light of reason shines quite brightly in my life; The logical fallacies in your post suggest, however, that you spend less time in the same light. You say you are programmed to seek REAL evidence, and you couldn't be more correct. But who defines REAL for you? Think: you are not even considering the current information now; you are brushing it aside based on assumptions and logical fallacies without even having seen it. All you have is a second hand news report which was light on details.
The point is, the claim may be false, and it may be real. I won't know until I see more. But I am not brushing it aside so thoughtlessly. Thoughtless and forceful rejection of an idea is one of the hallmarks of having been brainwashed.
-FL
I can't believe the civilization as advanced as ours is full of people who can't even program a computer. It's just odd.
It's just the opposite - the more advanced we get, the more specialized our jobs become. If you live in a tribe in the jungle, you might know everything your civilization knows. If you live in a space age civ, you can't possibly.
Can you make your own clothes? Grow your own food? Build a telephone? Diagnose your own illnesses? Design your own car? Draft your own legislation? For everything you answer "yes," there are a hundred other jobs you can't do for yourself because there isn't time in one life to learn it all.
My med-school-student fiance will never know how to program a computer, and doesn't care to. But you'll be glad she hasn't wasted her time on that if she's your doctor someday.
Well now, I think you did read the rest of my post, albeit, you probably skimmed as quickly as you could because that's all you could manage due to the sick feeling in your gut which always hits when you have to deal with the repercussions of your actions and the possibility that somebody might make you face yourself. But that's beside the point.
Listen, we are all ignorant at all times on many levels, yet we do the best we can to continue living with the information we have, formulating theories and testing them through application while we work to collect new information. The point you brought up is interesting and I am glad to know it, but my original post and all the points therein are not actually diminished by it, so your abusive screaming about, 'gross ignorance,' is entirely unfair. It is in fact itself ignorant behavior. Essentially, you posted with knee-jerk anger in response to my attempt at examining how kids grow up in a system where they are psychologically manipulated. When I responded to your irrational and poorly communicated points, you became even more rude and agitated and irrational. And now you have regressed to calling names and running away. How old are you, anyway?
Maybe it is time for you to grow up and face yourself and the world squarely and without fear. Preferably before you do any more typing.
-FL
You just love insulting people, don't you. Well, I do too. We know very little about each other and although I could make a great many assumptions about you, they would be as equally erroneous as the ones you seem to have made about me. After seeing your name, I recognized we've made comments back and forth of equally insulting nature. Would I be making an erroneous assumption that you are a disturbed individual based on the nature of your personal attacks on me?
Either I'm a far more terrible person than I think I am, or you're mis-interpreting my comments.
I just re-read my last post, and I really don't think I said anything which was insulting to you. I made very sure to qualify my comments in such a way that they responded only to what you were saying and to explain what might be easily inferred from what you were saying. --You told me directly in that you think it's cool and acceptable to mislead people for fun and profit. If that's not how you really feel, then why on earth would you represent yourself as such? Any insult or unhappiness you perceive from my pointing out the difficulties which result in living life in that manner is coming from within you.
My comments about false skepticism being like sewage is I think, as I said, appropriate. Dogmatic belief doesn't allow fresh ideas in, and it allows false knowledge to grow and fester. That's what sewage is; liquid waste which isn't being flushed away by fresh water. Again, any insult taken from that is hardly my fault. I'm just holding up a mirror. And whether or not you believe me when I say it, it is true; I do not mean any disrespect towards you. And anyway, I wasn't directing the Skeptic thing at you. I was just commenting on the phenomenon at large. If you chose to take it personally, then again, that is a choice you made for some reason which only you can answer to.
As for your thoughts regarding UFO's, I am absolutely interested. If you have information which lead you to the belief that UFOs are all 'chaf', then I really want to know it! Jeez. If you know something which is so very convincing, then it either must be really solid, (in which case, I want to know it too,) or it's faulty. However, based on the work I have put into looking at this, and all the patterns I have seen over, and over again, I am not banking on your being able to tell me anything I've not already heard and seen the flaws with, but who knows? I've been wrong before and I am not scared of being wrong again.
When I began looking at stuff, I had very strong beliefs in how things were, and UFO's didn't fit into that mold. I come from a very strict science background. But I wanted to know more, so I started looking. Then something very interesting happened; the first and immediate thing I ran into was that I found very deeply rooted negative emotional reactions in myself to even looking at stuff outside the orthodox mainstream. I was embarrassed to say what I was doing to my peers, and whenever I did breathe word of it, I was attacked ruthlessly with ridicule and the like.
This effectively prevented me from looking for many years.
But the day did come when I stopped and blinked and saw that there was a logical disconnect. Very simply, strong emotions like those I described are not supposed to be part of a scientific enquiry, and since they were so overwhelmingly powerful, not just in myself, but in virtually everybody I've ever heard talk about it on the orthodox science side, I began to wonder where that intense emotional energy came from and why they were so deeply entrenched in me and the people I knew. So I tried a little experiment. --I made a deliberate effort to push past those emotional boundaries and look honestly at the 'forbidden' materials and get on with the job of measuring them. I didn't think at the time I was doing anything special, but this changed my life in a significant way. Fear no longer controls what I allow myself to think about. --And suffice it to say, that when I fin