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A Million PS3s Sold in Japan

Posted by Zonk on from the i've-heard-slow-and-steady-wins-the-race dept.

Reuters is reporting that the PlayStation 3 has reached 1 million units sold in Japan. The article notes that the eight months the console took to reach this mark is roughly four times slower than it took the Wii. Of course, the 360 has only managed to eek out 420,705 units sold in a much longer timespan. To put things in perspective, an aging news report suggests that the PlayStation 2 sold 1 million units the first weekend it was released in Japan. Even the Wii didn't hit that, though that may have been an issue of supply rather than demand. Do you think there is a specific reason the PS3 isn't selling as well as the PlayStation 2 did, or is the market just a different place than it was 7 years ago?

164 comments

  1. Manifest Destiny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is Xbox 360's destiny to control Japan.

    Resistance is futile.

    Where are the games?

  2. The numbers by MeanderingMind · · Score: 4, Informative

    The last numbers reported on Japanese hardware sales: July 2nd - 8th

    That would mean in the past 10 days, at least 24,129 PS3s were sold. That is approximately 16,890 PS3s last week, and 7,239 so far this week.

    For comparison, the Wii was at 2,949,774 units sold the week before last. Given that they've been consistantly selled 70k+ per week, the Wii probably surpassed 3 million consoles last week. The Xbox 360 has yet to break 400k units.

    --
    Thunderclone: ONE MAN ENTERS! TWO MEN LEAVE! ONE MAN ENTERS! TWO MEN LEAVE!
    1. Re:The numbers by Maniac-X · · Score: 1

      That's nuts. The Wii is dominating sales. But anyway, I think there are two major reasons for the PS3 lagging so far behind (especially in the states): 1) The PS3 is *extremely* expensive for a console. 2) There are VERY few exclusive titles for it, generating very little incentive for customers to buy it over either of the two alternatives. Combining that with the simple fact that the 360's hardware is better suited for games, and the Wii is like crack in it's own right, there's little wonder why the PS3 is floundering.

      --
      (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)gnore?_
    2. Re:The numbers by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      the simple fact that the 360's hardware is better suited for games

      I don't know that this is justifiable as an opinion, much less a "simple fact".

      It may be true that the 360's Xenon CPU may be more familiar to developers than the PS3's Cell, but I'm not sure that translates into being "better suited for games". There's no reason that a game written to take advantage of the Cell architecture could not be better than one written to take advantage of the Xenon.

    3. Re:The numbers by AuMatar · · Score: 2, Informative

      The truely interesting thing to me on that list is the DS. The lifetime Japan sales of the DS are showing as 18M, and PS2 is 20M. If thats right, the DS is about to surpass the PS2 in number of units sold!

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    4. Re:The numbers by MikeBabcock · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You overlook a big issue in Japan -- the PS3 is huge. Did I mention its pretty big? Or heavy? Or huge?

      The Japanese have less space to work with in their living spaces and tend toward small slim and lightweight devices. The PS3 is none of the above. The DS which is selling well is portable and small. The Wii is also small.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    5. Re:The numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those of of who play computer games have known that the GPU is more important than the CPU for the better part of a decade, and the 360's GPU is a lot faster.

    6. Re:The numbers by DrEldarion · · Score: 1

      Sure, if all you're concerned with about is graphics. The CPU is FAR more important for things like physics and AI, which actually is what makes a game fun.

    7. Re:The numbers by MeanderingMind · · Score: 1

      It depends. Any given PC setup, or console, is a balance of a number of limiting factors. Usually each one crops up in rare or specific circumstances, with GPU issues being the most common. However, similarly common are memory and CPU issues.

      For example, my PC is perfectly capable of running WoW in Outland at 30+ fps. However, if I also run Ventrilo and Skype, my framerate can drop (depending on how active the conversations are, or the number of Skype participants) to as low as 10FPS. Skype and Ventrilo are not major resource hogs on the GPU by any stretch of the imagination, leaving my memory and CPU as the more likely culprits. Chances are it isn't as simple as replacing/upgrading one or the other, and there could also be motherboard considerations.

      I'm not a expert on these matters, but it doesn't take a novice to realize that there is more than one point of potential slowdown.

      --
      Thunderclone: ONE MAN ENTERS! TWO MEN LEAVE! ONE MAN ENTERS! TWO MEN LEAVE!
    8. Re:The numbers by kengentry5000 · · Score: 1

      It may be true that the 360's Xenon CPU The XBox 360 uses three IBM PowerPC processors similiar to the Apple Mac G5 - not at all related to the Intel XEON processor.

    9. Re:The numbers by meringuoid · · Score: 3, Informative
      The truely interesting thing to me on that list is the DS. The lifetime Japan sales of the DS are showing as 18M, and PS2 is 20M. If thats right, the DS is about to surpass the PS2 in number of units sold!

      DS did that long ago. Look again at the chart: eighteen million is the figure for 'DSL', while lower down the chart you'll see that something called 'NDS' has sold 6.5 million.

      Between the DS and DS Lite, Nintendo have shifted nearly 26 million in Japan. That's about one in five of the entire Japanese population.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    10. Re:The numbers by jeffro69 · · Score: 1

      Its entirely possible that there are just no games that anyone wants to play on it.

      I spent 45 minutes at the store when I bought a PS3 for my boss just looking for ANY title that looked remotely interesting.

      4 months later I still can't find anything that looks like its worth playing, let alone owning.

      And Paying $650 for the newest GTA is a bit hard to justify.

    11. Re:The numbers by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      I missed that. Its absolutely insane. The best selling console in Japan of the generation was a handheld. It makes me wonder if eventually consoles won't go the way of the dodo.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    12. Re:The numbers by buffer-overflowed · · Score: 1

      Actually, they both suck for AI. Piss-poor branch prediction and a number of other factors would make that very, very hard, and quite frankly the top talent in those fields doesn't typically(ever?) wind up in game development.

      Now, if you mean AI as in convincing AI, well, the pinacle of that in a game has to be offline bots, and those can be perfectly functional on either system.

      Physics is kind of a wash too.

      --
      The key to the enjoyment of pop music is to replace any instance of "love" with "C.H.U.D."
    13. Re:The numbers by coren2000 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Has there ever been a successful US product in Japan?

      What are their import laws like when compared to their export laws?

    14. Re:The numbers by buffer-overflowed · · Score: 1

      You need a fast enough cpu and other components to be able to feed the GPU. Even an 8800 GTS needs a pretty beefy CPU and some good memory to feed it fast enough. Get up into stuff like SLIed 8800GTX-ULTRAs and you need some really beefy equipment to keep up.

      --
      The key to the enjoyment of pop music is to replace any instance of "love" with "C.H.U.D."
    15. Re:The numbers by Mishra2002 · · Score: 1

      I hear this new music player called the iPod is pretty popular. I don't know much about it though.

    16. Re:The numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By that logic, should sales be Wii > 360 > Ps3?

    17. Re:The numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No...
      They'll probably evolve into some kind of 'home digital e-distributed media server' in the short run and maybe a few more generations down the road, evolve into smart houses.

    18. Re:The numbers by shoemilk · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah, and a lot of people here use some no-name OS, Doors I think it's called? I dunno, anyway I asked once and they said it was made by some American company called macrosoft.

    19. Re:The numbers by webheaded · · Score: 1

      The PS2 was equally as huge at launch...I don't really see how that's even a valid point...

      --
      "Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - BenF
    20. Re:The numbers by Zeussy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      that a game written to take advantage of the Cell architecture


      Thats the problem right there. Sure there are going to be some developers that will write a game to take advantage (I am thinking good old dependable Square Enix), but will most common developers take the time to utilize it? The one thing Microsoft has some experience with is making software, and they know its hard, so they designed a console with quite a lot of power, but easy to develop for with a good toolset, therefore easier to utilise that power.

      Sony has a machine with sheer power, but most of that is almost criptically locked up within the SPE's of the Cell, with completely different hardware and memory access systems to what a lot of programmers are used to. BUT I can also see this not really affecting the PS3 in the long run. With Game budgets now huge, complex and long. The tendicy now being to use License API's like Agieas Physx which has been adapted to run on the Cell SPE's and I can see more things like that happening. Games programmers can still program the General Purpose code for the game they are used too on the PowerPC part of the Cell, and the API's such as Physx, Havok and even things possibly like Unreal3's culling code could all be but on the workhorse of the Cell without the development teams having to worry about it too much.

      It could (if not already with say Unreal3) that the teams don't really have to think about the underlying hardware of the platform they are working on, they just work withing the framework provided. Anyroad thats my 2 cents.
      --
      Automation - The Car Company Tycoon Game
    21. Re:The numbers by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 1

      "Look at me! I pretend that technical terms don't have slightly different meanings in different contexts!"

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
    22. Re:The numbers by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      I have an original PS2 and a PS3 next to it right now. Trust me, the PS2 is noticeably smaller in every dimension.

      That aside, people have had all their other electronic devices get smaller, not bigger, from micro stereo systems to thinner TVs to smaller notebooks and cell phones.

      It took a minute to look up, but here are your comparison sizes:

      The PS2 was 301 mm (W) x 182 mm (D) x 78 mm (H)
      The PS3 is 325mm (W) x 274mm (D) x 98mm (H)

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    23. Re:The numbers by aadvancedGIR · · Score: 1

      I see a major flaw in your point: you need quite a lot of room to truly enjoy the Wii with your friends, which is the main reason to own a Wii in the first place.
      I think there are several other reasons:
      -It is expensive (Very true in Europe, where the decided to bundle 2 last year games instead of dropping the price, but not that much in Japan).
      -It is power ungry.
      -It doesn't have many appealing games yet, it will be better for next christmas.
      -You need an expensive TV set to really appreciate the graphic improvement.
      -Everybody who might be interested in that console already has a PS2 with lots of good games (plus a XB360 in the US).
      -The Sony name isn't as cool as it used to be. It's big N turn now.
      -No rumble pad.
      Unexpectedly, the BR seemed to actually help selling the console.

    24. Re:The numbers by iainl · · Score: 3, Informative

      Indeed. Codename of that '3x PowerPC on a single die' chip? Xenon. So you're both right.

      --
      "I Know You Are But What Am I?"
    25. Re:The numbers by donaldm · · Score: 1

      - Expensive is what you can't afford.
      - The PS3 runs at approx 200W but talk to any hard core gamer and power is not even an issue.
      - The PS3 standby mode is very much less than 1W.
      - The current PS3 game offerings are not that great from my perspective but the other console games are equally unappealing from my perspective. Of course if you don't mind playing upscaled PS2 games and there are plenty of those the PS3 has the most games.
      - You can get away using a SDTV with both the Xbox360 and PS3 but a HDTV really makes the graphics from the two look fantastic.
      - As I have said before the PS3 will smooth and upscale PS2 games and this makes a good PS2 great and really adds to the replay value of the game but of course no amount of graphical improvement makes a bad game better.
      - You are right no rumble for PS3 games yet, but you can use the PS2 dual-shock with rumble for your PS1/2 games.
      - Having BD does make the PS3 a good all-round machine but if all you want is a cheap games machine then the Wii is for you or maybe the PS2. However if the Wii is just being attached to a SDTV or small HDTV this usually means that the only people that will use it are low end casual gamers and it is going to interesting to see how game sales for this market shape up. After all game sales are what drive support for a console. Still no matter Nintendo has not lost any money.

      --
      There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
    26. Re:The numbers by LKM · · Score: 1

      For comparison, the Wii was at 2,949,774 units sold the week before last. Given that they've been consistantly selled 70k+ per week, the Wii probably surpassed 3 million consoles last week. The Xbox 360 has yet to break 400k units.

      Even more astonishing: The Wii is only constrained by production, not by demand. Nintendo could probably sell about twice as many if they managed to get production capacity up.

    27. Re:The numbers by magnusrex1280 · · Score: 1

      Okay...? No one said the Xenon was related to Intel's Xeon.

    28. Re:The numbers by magnusrex1280 · · Score: 1

      HAHAHA
      You made me spit up my coffee :(
      Saaad panda.

    29. Re:The numbers by magnusrex1280 · · Score: 1

      A friend of mine bought a PS3 a couple months ago, and bought about 6 games for it. He's since downloaded several of the $6 games from the network. I've been over there several times since he bought the machine, for 4th of July and a couple birthdays, and we all spend our time playing Guitar Hero II on his PS2. Of all the games he has for the PS3, "Blast Factor" is the one I actually enjoyed. And it's one of those $6 downloads...and it's not even all that *great*. Sure, it's fun, and pretty, but it's barely original. I love the whole idea of the PS3, I love the design of the internal hardware...but there's nothing out there that makes me want to own one.

  3. No idea by eln · · Score: 5, Funny

    Do you think there is a specific reason the PS3 isn't selling as well as the PlayStation 2 did, or is the market just a different place than it was 7 years ago? No, we have no idea why the PS3 is not selling well. There has certainly not been countless posts complaining about the price on any of our thrice-weekly PS3 vs. Wii vs. 360 Slashdot threads. None of us have any idea why this is happening, and it has caught us totally off guard. No one on Slashdot ever predicted that the PS3 would have a hard time selling, and there was certainly never any speculation that the price was too high.

    This is all entirely new and interesting information. I'm sure we will have a lively and enlightening discussion where multiple new and logically sound theories based on solid economic and sociological data will be presented.
    1. Re:No idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I, for one, believe that it is not the public belief that the PS3 is over-priced, but the public belief that it is under-under-priced that is the greater sociological effect.

    2. Re:No idea by IrquiM · · Score: 1

      "There has certainly not been countless posts complaining about the price on any of our thrice-weekly PS3 vs. Wii vs. 360 Slashdot threads"

      That's because slashdot readers are CEOs with big, fat pay-cheques earning 5 ps3 an hour!

      --
      This is blinging
    3. Re:No idea by Goaway · · Score: 1

      There have, however, been countless posts about how the PS3 will "do well in Japan anyway".

      Of course, none of the people making those posts had any clue about the Japanese market in the first place, and were just parroting something they'd heard on the internet.

      Meanwhile, the Japanese were making fun of the price just as much as us westerners, if not more so. More hilariously, at least.

    4. Re:No idea by magus_melchior · · Score: 1

      Nice. Now all you need is Tracy Grandstaff reading this in monotone...

      --
      "We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
    5. Re:No idea by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      "I'm sure we will have a lively and enlightening discussion where multiple new and logically sound theories based on solid economic and sociological data will be presented."

      Your mother!

  4. Yes by rob1980 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Do you think there is a specific reason the PS3 isn't selling as well as the PlayStation 2 did, or is the market just a different place than it was 7 years ago?

    Playstation 2 launch price: ¥39,800
    Playstation 3 launch price: ¥49,980 (basic), ¥59,980 (premium)

    That might have had something to do with it.

    1. Re:Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      What is that Y with the lines through it?

      Is ¥ anime for $?

    2. Re:Yes by Broken+scope · · Score: 0

      I can't decide if I should mod you funny or ask you if your serious.

      Well doesn't matter anymore I guess.

      --
      You mad
    3. Re:Yes by ShaggyIan · · Score: 1

      Take that and add the Wii, which is economically a much closer substitute than anything the PS2 was up against.

      Price increase plus additional substitutes leads to lower demand.

      Well, at least until some Final Fantasy type exclusive removes the Wii as a substitute.

      --

      This sig was generated randomly by one million monkeys with Speak 'n Spells. . .
    4. Re:Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Come on. You think the poster knows what anime is, but doesn't know the symbol for the British pound?

    5. Re:Yes by Virak · · Score: 1

      No, ¥ is anime for \.

    6. Re:Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your shitting me right? Get out of your own country sometime. Thats the symbol for the Japanese Yen.

    7. Re:Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get it right! the language is not called "anime"!

      It's called Moonspeak!

  5. reasons? by Thanatos69 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Do you think there is a specific reason the PS3 isn't selling as well as the PlayStation 2 did, or is the market just a different place than it was 7 years ago?

    If this isn't a setup for a flame war, I don't know what is.
    1. Re:reasons? by jZnat · · Score: 1

      Only if anyone on /. gave a shit about the PS3 in the first place could I agree with that. After the PS3 flopped, there aren't any more supporters of it here...

      --
      'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
    2. Re:reasons? by thebonafortuna · · Score: 2

      I'm a supporter! I think the Playstation 3 actually has wonderful potential to be the top notch gaming system in the next couple of years, once developers have learned to better utilize its hardware. It's price point is a turn off, sure, but that will come down...and developers will still be making games for it at that point.

      That being said, although I really respect Nintendo for taking a different course and building a new, innovate gaming platform, I am frankly not very impressed with the end result. I wanted to love it, but after playing the Wii a couple of times, I have zero desire to ever go out and buy one. I think its great that games developed for the Wii probably won't be ports from other systems (in the future), because the control scheme is simply too different...I think its just going to take a while for developers to really make this new way of playing games work. That being said, the activity involved isn't a real selling point for me. While I can't speak for anyone else on Slashdot, I suspect I'm not alone when I say I get enough physical activity on my own for said activity to be required when I want to sit down and game.

      Back to the PS3, well, I think the SIXAXIS controller is great. It is the perfect shape for utilizing motion sensing for driving or flying games, as you can "turn" it, rather than wave a wand to simulate a driving experience. I'm not knocking the Wii, I'm just stating that a rectangular controller isn't ideally suited for driving or flying simulators...although I'm sure it works well, or will work well in the future.

      As a relative newcomer to Slashdot, I don't understand all the hatred out there for Sony. Whatever, I'm sure some of it is well founded, as there are many well informed members on here. I just don't have a real problem with Sony. I loved my PS1 and PS2, and most of my other Sony appliances have been great to me over the years (although I went with Sharp on my new HDTV purchase a week ago). In fact, I have always been surprised there aren't more rabid XBox haters on here, as Microsoft tends to get trashed a lot, for every conceivable reason.

      Anyways, to readdress your point: I, for one, still support the PS3. I think it will do great things, and I hope for as much. Now I just have to buy one...something which won't happen for at least another year. But just because I don't have one doesn't mean I don't "support" the system. I might be alone, but there are probably one or two other people on here who feel the way I do.

    3. Re:reasons? by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      "If this isn't a setup for a flame war, I don't know what is."

      Well I suppose you have a point. Afterall, there are actually people here that think Zonk caused Sony's bad PR.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    4. Re:reasons? by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 1

      You're not. I think the PS3 is a great system, just overpriced. I love my PS3, and wish Sony would stop acting hell-bent on the destruction of the wonderful console they've made.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    5. Re:reasons? by Chosen+Reject · · Score: 1

      the activity involved isn't a real selling point for me. While I can't speak for anyone else on Slashdot, I suspect I'm not alone when I say I get enough physical activity on my own for said activity to be required when I want to sit down and game.
      You're doing it wrong. You do not, I repeat loudly, DO NOT have to move and flail and point and swing like you see in the commercials, nor do you have to move like you're really swinging a tennis racket, etc. You do have to point at certain things, but if you are sufficently far from the sensor bar (that is, 3 feet is suffient, 2 is cutting it close) I can point anywhere on screen with less movement involved than moving a mouse. I've played Tennis while sitting down and never even moving my arm as Tennis uses the acceleration of the wii-mote. You can accelerate it with slight wrist movements just as well as entire arm movements (sometimes better). I've done the same with the boxing and elebits, etc. In other words, if you feel tired in anyway shape or form after playing the Wii, then you over-exerted yourself or you weren't getting enough activity anyway. To be more specific, overexert means you chose to swing around like a wild animal when it wasn't necessary at all (which can be fun, too) and by not getting enough activity I mean moving a mouse and typing on a keyboard makes you winded.
      --
      Stop Global Warming!
      Just say no to irreversible processes!
    6. Re:reasons? by LKM · · Score: 1

      I'm a supporter! I think the Playstation 3 actually has wonderful potential to be the top notch gaming system in the next couple of years, once developers have learned to better utilize its hardware. It's price point is a turn off, sure, but that will come down...and developers will still be making games for it at that point.

      But the thing is, if there are no killer games on the PS3, people won't buy it, so there's no incentive for developers to learn how to program it correctly. I think for the foreseeable future - and maybe for the entire lifetime of the system - most really good games will come out of Sony's own dev studios. The PS3 seems to become this generation's Gamecube.

      I think its great that games developed for the Wii probably won't be ports from other systems (in the future), because the control scheme is simply too different...

      Yeah, most probably won't be, but interestingly, some ports arrived with really great results - Godfather, for example.

      I think its just going to take a while for developers to really make this new way of playing games work.

      ...as seen with the DS.

      That being said, the activity involved isn't a real selling point for me. While I can't speak for anyone else on Slashdot, I suspect I'm not alone when I say I get enough physical activity on my own for said activity to be required when I want to sit down and game.

      Frankly, I think most /. posters probably have a similar lifestyle to mine: Sit in front of a screen for most parts of the day. I'm happy to embrace any activity that will get me out of my couch at home. Right now, I'm playing a lot of Kinetic Combat, which must be one of the crappiest games I've ever played, but at least it makes me sweat.

      Back to the PS3, well, I think the SIXAXIS controller is great.

      I never liked the Playstation controllers. The shape is awkward for adults with larger hands (I'm basically holding the thing with my middle and ring fingers), the button names are stupid (the Cube got that very, very right, since you immediately know what button to push if it's shown on screen, due to the distinct shapes). The dual analog sticks are in the wrong position for every game except Katamari Damacy. In addition, the Sixaxis is too light, the lower should buttons are slippery, and it has no vibra. Oh, and the lights are ordered in the wrong direction. If you look at your hands, player four has the leftmost light active, and player one has the rightmost light active. Lots of little things that add up to the worst controller of this and the last generation.

      It is the perfect shape for utilizing motion sensing for driving or flying games, as you can "turn" it, rather than wave a wand to simulate a driving experience. I'm not knocking the Wii, I'm just stating that a rectangular controller isn't ideally suited for driving or flying simulators...

      Excite Truck steers a lot better than the motion steering in Motorstorm. That's really all I can say on this topic. You don't have to "wave a wand to simulate a driving experience," you hold it like a normal controller, sideways. I'm not sure I understand your complaint, maybe you've never played a driving game on the Wii?

      As a relative newcomer to Slashdot, I don't understand all the hatred out there for Sony.

      That's not relly hard to understand. Sony used to be a great company, one you could rely on to get good hardware at a somewhat high, but fair price. During the last decade, they've slowly morphed into something different. They try to push proprietary, overpriced media formats on you (Minidisc, UMD, Memory Stick). They ignore what users want for what they want (ATRAC instead of MP3). They listen to their content arm instead of making the best hardware possible. They actually sell CDs with rootkits on them. And they insult their customers (we'll sell 5 mill

  6. If a million PS3s sell in Japan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and nobody plays them, have they truly sold?

    1. Re:If a million PS3s sell in Japan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if an asshole fails to manifest a pertinent wisdom, would the asshole off himself to benefit the world?

  7. Maybe... by rbarreira · · Score: 3, Funny

    Maybe the reason is that people only have one job? Those slackers...

    --

    The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
  8. shipped != sold by sidb · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sony typically reports the number of units shipped to retailers, not actually sold through to consumers. If there as many PS3s stacked in Best Buys in Japan as here, it may be a few more weeks (or possibly months) before a million PS3s are actually hooked up to Japanese TVs in people's homes.

    1. Re:shipped != sold by AndyG314 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Most companies report the number of shipped units rather than the number of units sold there are a few reasons for this: 1) Shipped is a bigger number, there is always a few more shipped than have actually been sold. 2) Shipped is way easer to estimate, as you know how many you have sent out the door, it's very difficult to get sales estimates from the countless different realtailers. 3) Shipped is good enough.

      --
      If it's dead, you killed it.
    2. Re:shipped != sold by badasscat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sony typically reports the number of units shipped to retailers, not actually sold through to consumers.

      This is counting units sold, not shipped. Sony can report whatever number it wants, but there are third party organizations and companies devoted to counting units sold at retail, and Enterbrain (where this number is coming from) is one of them.

      All manufacturers, not just Sony, count units shipped and announce those numbers. MS does the same (they just announced 11.6 million Xbox 360's shipped, not sold), as does Nintendo. It's all they know, after all - it's just an inventory. It takes a separate company to go out there and count units sold at retail, which Enterbrain, Media Create and at least one other company I'm forgetting right now do.

      NPD does it in the United States.

    3. Re:shipped != sold by Ecuador · · Score: 1

      I don't think Best Buys have that many PS3's stacked... in Japan!

      (Sorry but I was starting to miss that meme...)

      --
      Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
    4. Re:shipped != sold by rlp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As long as Wii manufacturing is not meeting demand, for Nintendo: shipped == sold.

      --
      [Insert pithy quote here]
    5. Re:shipped != sold by FinchWorld · · Score: 1

      Thats always been a sticking point with consoles, and more of late with sony. 1) Because Nintendo always reports sold units as oppossed to shipped. 2) Because Sony tries to pass off shipped as "They are selling like hot cakes!", coupled in with the unsold PS3 bounty they did (Find a PS3 on the shelves and we'll pay you $$$, causing most gaming sites to post pictures of local shops with PS3's stacked on shelves, Sony became quiet about the bounty).

      --
      "I may be full of crap about this game, and I may be wrong, and that's fine." -Jack Thompson
    6. Re:shipped != sold by Deliveranc3 · · Score: 1

      Agreed, this trend with Console's taking a loss is also problematic. Should metrics get back to the gaming aspect of this and look at the number of games shipped (As well as the top selling game which should indicate the total number of gaming systems in use?)... These PS3's are likely sitting around as Blu-Ray players or sitting in stores, these metrics should mean nothing to game developers and without developer interest no console can survive.

    7. Re:shipped != sold by MeanderingMind · · Score: 1

      Beyond the point of the sibling post, Nintendo has consistantly reported the units they sell rather than the units they ship for years. The "shipped" numbers are only cited by them in as far as they inform the public of what kind of volume to expect (i.e. Announcing there will be 4 million Wiis shipped to stores by March '07, later announcing the actual sales come March).

      --
      Thunderclone: ONE MAN ENTERS! TWO MEN LEAVE! ONE MAN ENTERS! TWO MEN LEAVE!
    8. Re:shipped != sold by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but too bad that it's a myth outside from where you're living. I see huge stacks of all current-gen consoles in the stores over here (Germany).

      CAPTCHA: slipper

    9. Re:shipped != sold by bogjobber · · Score: 1

      Right, but those PS3's stacked in Best Buys are being sold, they're just not being sold faster than they can restock them. Shipped numbers can be misleading, but as long as PS3's are not being returned it's a fairly accurate count.

  9. People aren't making enough to spend enough.... by madhatter256 · · Score: 0, Redundant

    The PS3 is more expensive than the PS2 when it first came out. People in Japan and US aren't making enough money to spend on luxury entertainment items. That's why people aren't picking up the PS3 as fast as the PS2 back when it came out.

    The Wii is cheap and fun, that's why it is the number one selling Next Gen console in Japan.

    --
    Previewing comments are for sissies!
    1. Re:People aren't making enough to spend enough.... by VGPowerlord · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't know about in Japan, but in the US, it's not just more expensive, it's twice as (or 100% more) expensive as the PS and PS2 were at launch (PS: $299; PS2: $299; PS3: $599).

      By comparison, the Wii launched for 25% more than the Game Cube, which itself launched at the same exact price as all of Nintendo's previous console systems (NES, SNES, N64, GC: $199; Wii: $249). The XBox 360 launched for 33% more than the XBox (XBox: $299; XBox 360: $399).

      Seriously, though, the PS3 launched for $200 more than the already overpriced console that had been out for a year. That's seriously dumb.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    2. Re:People aren't making enough to spend enough.... by ShibaInu · · Score: 1

      If I remember, the PS2 launched right smack in the middle of the dot com era as well. There were many a young geek flush with internet dollars willing to drop a couple hundred on a game machine.

    3. Re:People aren't making enough to spend enough.... by king-manic · · Score: 1

      I don't know about in Japan, but in the US, it's not just more expensive, it's twice as (or 100% more) expensive as the PS and PS2 were at launch (PS: $299; PS2: $299; PS3: $599).

      By comparison, the Wii launched for 25% more than the Game Cube, which itself launched at the same exact price as all of Nintendo's previous console systems (NES, SNES, N64, GC: $199; Wii: $249). The XBox 360 launched for 33% more than the XBox (XBox: $299; XBox 360: $399).

      Seriously, though, the PS3 launched for $200 more than the already overpriced console that had been out for a year. That's seriously dumb.

      The other bit you may have to face is the fact the US dollar has fallen against all other currencies in that time as well. For me my PS2 was $449 + tax + mem card when I got it and my PS3 was $649 I think. It was around that ball park but I forget the exact digits. Mem car wasn't needed. Adjusting for inflations leaves a pretty slim price difference. What happened to Sony was it was releasing another expensive machine to two major markets whose currency had dipped and economies weren't as hot. They didn't follow the economic indicators and release a cheaper machine earlier like Nintendo did.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    4. Re:People aren't making enough to spend enough.... by laffer1 · · Score: 1

      I haven't computed the numbers, but I find it difficult to believe that inflation has caused the price to DOUBLE in seven years. The value of the dollar isn't so hot, but Japan isn't the booming economic paradise it once was either. I agree with the rest of your statements.

      What has doubled in the US in the last seven years is gas prices. In 2000, I paid $1.50/gal. Today it is over $3/gal. Consumers don't have the $599 for a game console and the $300-$3000 for an HDTV to enjoy it on. The Wii has very limited Hidef capabilities, but it also works great on a SDTV. I can use it on my seven year old POS Maganvox without any problems. Anyone interested in a PS3 is also interested in Blueray or high quality graphics for games.

      In my case, the lack of an HDTV is changing my purchasing decisions. I can not get benefit out of an xbox360 or PS3 over my Wii. I can not buy many set top box devices like an Apple TV. I have no interest in buying an HD-DVD or Blueray player. I have basic cable so i'm not "scared" that I may lose television signals.

      --
      MidnightBSD: The BSD for Everyone
    5. Re:People aren't making enough to spend enough.... by king-manic · · Score: 1

      I haven't computed the numbers, but I find it difficult to believe that inflation has caused the price to DOUBLE in seven years. The value of the dollar isn't so hot, but Japan isn't the booming economic paradise it once was either. I agree with the rest of your statements.

      What has doubled in the US in the last seven years is gas prices. In 2000, I paid $1.50/gal. Today it is over $3/gal. Consumers don't have the $599 for a game console and the $300-$3000 for an HDTV to enjoy it on. The Wii has very limited Hidef capabilities, but it also works great on a SDTV. I can use it on my seven year old POS Maganvox without any problems. Anyone interested in a PS3 is also interested in Blueray or high quality graphics for games.

      In my case, the lack of an HDTV is changing my purchasing decisions. I can not get benefit out of an xbox360 or PS3 over my Wii. I can not buy many set top box devices like an Apple TV. I have no interest in buying an HD-DVD or Blueray player. I have basic cable so i'm not "scared" that I may lose television signals.

      At the very least against the Canadian dollar the US dollar has lost a little under half (40%) from it's peak value in the last decade. Against the euro and pound it's lost about 30% from it's peak. The yen followed similar patterns although I don't think the magnitude is as great. Majority of the non chinese, non home grown products tend to be about 40% more then what they were in 2000. The chinese have pegged their currency with yours to encourage trade.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
  10. Observation about the 360 in Japan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The consensus from Japan seems to be Gears is fine (not great), everything else sucks. I've played through the campaign 2x with people from Japan, and only a few PvP matches, which I've played a lot of. Which suggests the intense personal aggression or the language barrier (Gears is almost english only in my experience) are unpalateable. The language thing is very important, winning a one on one battle is meaningless if your other teammates don't, or the other team doesn't fight one on one (they won't). Communication is often more lethal than raw skill. The people I played with seemed to be early adopters with disposable income and who were craving something new, whatever that would be.

    Sadly I wouldn't expect the 360 to do better, JRPGs aren't unfamiliar to me and Blue Dragon's demo was horrible.

  11. Slashdot groupthink? by DogDude · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Could somebody please explain to me why the Official Slashdot Groupthink(tm) hates the PS3 and loves the Wii? Could somebody please explain to me why the Official Slashdot Groupthink(tm) even cares about how many units sold? How is this "Stuff that matters" to anybody other than high level Sony and Nintendo executives?

    --
    I don't respond to AC's.
    1. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by rbarreira · · Score: 1

      Maybe nerds want to see Sony die for their stupid remarks, and oh, I think I have something here... a rootkit!

      --

      The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
    2. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by c_forq · · Score: 2, Informative

      Because the PS3 is made by Sony, and the division in control of it has demonstrated extreme arrogance. The Slashdot Groupthink is strongly against arrogance, which is why it is so slanted against Microsoft, Sony, IBM at time, Sun at times, Apple at times (although the Apple fanbase here lessens the effect), and even Nintendo in the past. The Slashdot Groupthink loves the Wii because Nintendo is actually putting its money on what the Slashdot Groupthink has been saying for years (gameplay is more important than graphics, games should be fun, etc.). They care about units sold because publishers and developers care about units sold, and they want to see more games for their fun system and for Sony to eat its hubris.

      --
      Computers allow humans to make mistakes at the fastest speeds known, with the possible exception of tequila and handguns
    3. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by the_tsi · · Score: 3, Funny

      We are at war with Sony. We have always been at war with Sony. 2+2=5.

    4. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by edwdig · · Score: 1

      You care how many sales a given system has because it determines what games get made for it. It also determines the quality of the games you get. On multi-console games, generally the system with the highest userbase gets the best development team on it.

    5. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by Boogaroo · · Score: 1

      Because everyone wants to see their brand win. Ostensibly it is because whichever one sells more will be the one to get the games, saving you money since you know which one to buy. In reality, it's just a way to stoke the fanboy ego.

      Look at Ford vs. Chevy, etc... Very easy to understand why people care about this sort of thing.

    6. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What self respecting nerd was affected by the rootkit debacle? Nerds neither buy music or DVDs, they download it all. The real issue is they're pissed they can't afford $600. How pathetic is that? Not even beer money for people with real skills.

    7. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      I own Nintendo stock, it matters to me.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    8. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by the_humeister · · Score: 1

      Look at Ford vs. Chevy, etc... Very easy to understand why people care about this sort of thing.

      Actually, it puzzles me even more why people care about such things...
    9. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by meringuoid · · Score: 1
      Could somebody please explain to me why the Official Slashdot Groupthink(tm) hates the PS3 and loves the Wii?

      For about a year now Sony have been top of the Slashdot shitlist, displacing Microsoft, the RIAA, and France. This is because of the rootkits they put on music CDs.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    10. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by Stefanwulf · · Score: 1

      I am continually impressed that Sony (or something, at least) has managed to turn Slashdot against a console which has such an awesome processor for parallel computation, uses open standards and API's from the Khronos Group for almost everything, and officially supports linux - complete with beowulf clustering.

      If you'd have told me that a year ago, I'd have said it couldn't be done.

    11. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by rjung2k · · Score: 1

      Because the Wii is more fun than the PS3 (IMO), so the better the Wii does, the better the odds that more fun games will come out for it. Simple as that.

      --

      --R.J.
      Electric-Escape.net

    12. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by WIAKywbfatw · · Score: 1

      To hell with the rootkits on their CDs. That was a screw-up, but it's not the reason why the PS3 gets such bad press.

      The reason the PS3 gets such bad press, here and elsewhere, is that Sony has managed to screw up every way possible whilst pretending that everything is hunky-dory.

      If Sony had been less boneheaded, or at least more honest about things, then it wouldn't have received half as much bad publicity. But as it's made one stupid move after another, and compounded that stupidity with an unswerving inability to tell the truth, Sony is simply getting what it deserves.

      You reap what you sew, and Sony hasn't realised this yet. It still hasn't understood that its strategy is harming the PlayStation brand so much, not just for this generation but perhaps for the next one, too.

      Nintendo, on the other hand, hasn't made anywhere close to the multitude of mistakes that its rivals have. It's released an inexpensive system, introduced some innovation, produced some decent games and focused on doing what it's good at. If it's made mistakes they've been minor ones, and they certainly haven't been driving customers away.

      Microsoft has made mistakes, but unlike Sony it's at least tried to put right some of its wrongs. Its strategy has been far from perfect, but it had the advantage of being first to the marketplace, so managed to establish a user base that Sony would currently give its eye teeth for.

      In terms of technical performance and capabilities, of the three, Nintendo has released the least impressive console, but it's also produced the best marketing strategy by far. And, just as VHS vs. Betamax showed us, you don't always have to be technically superior to win the battle.

      Nintendo has produced a competent console and marketed it brilliantly. Sony has produced a more powerful machine but has marketed it terribly.

      Any non-casual observer can see that. That is why Sony is getting creamed all over the press, as well as in the market.

      --

      "Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
    13. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by LordKronos · · Score: 1

      What self respecting nerd was affected by the rootkit debacle?


      How about every self respecting nerd who has the decency to ensure that their close family/friends have properly functioning computers and had to waste time cleaning up the mess sony made?
    14. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      "Could somebody please explain to me why the Official Slashdot Groupthink(tm) hates the PS3 and loves the Wii?"

      They kept at least half an eye open over the past year.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    15. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This just in! Massive amounts of money made! Complete and utter triumph and victory for the Wii forces! Ps3 wiped off the earth! victory victory victory!

    16. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by tbannist · · Score: 1

      As far as Sony goes, there's a variety of reasons:

      1) Nintendo fanbois
      2) Microsoft fanbois

      These two groups have slagged the PS3 as an overly expensive piece of junk since it was announced. There hatred for anything that doesn't belong to their chosen company is nothing new.

      3) Sony's bad behaviour

      Sony's been a bad company recently, the copy protection software that hides itself on your computer is a prime example of a related area that has offended many more people that were actually affected by it. Generally speaking, the people who are still offended by this will use any excuse, whether true or not, to attack Sony to make them pay for offending them. There are other issues, such a Lik-Sang but the copy-protection "root kit" (even though it was produced by a third party) is the one that gets the most tears.

      4) The PS3 price

      The price of the PS3 is much higher than anticipated, this has angered people many people who intended to buy one, if they get a PS3 then they'll have less money for beer and porn. Therefore, in their minds, Sony is taking their beer and porn, and that's bad.

      5) Sony's Executives

      Sony's executive are, from all appearances, paid to be professional public assholes. They've tried to make light of the price difference but given that there's already a large group of people pissed off at them, see 1-4, stupid jokes fall flat and the teaming horde of angry people rip everything they say to shreds. Sony's executives are apparently unable to deal in a reasonable professional manner with a public that is not happy with them.

      6) Everyone loves to see an arrogant titan fail.

      As for the Wii:

      1) Nintendo fanbois
      2) Microsoft fanbois still view the PS3 as the real threat to the Xbox 360

      3) The Wii is exactly the same as everyone other Nintendo console but now it has a new controller. It's the Malibu Stacey with a new hat phenomenom. It's different enough to be "new" but not different enough to be scary.

      4) The Wii is doing well. Everyone loves to jump on the bandwagon of the new rising star.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    17. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by Kelbear · · Score: 1

      Console war news is like sports news for geeks.

    18. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by amyhughes · · Score: 1

      The Slashdot Groupthink is strongly against arrogance

      Is that supposed to be a brain-explodey kind of thing, like saying "I'm lying?"

    19. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by Panzergheist · · Score: 1

      What self-respecting nerd actually still calls it a rootkit?

    20. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by shoemilk · · Score: 1

      3) The Wii is exactly the same as everyone other Nintendo console but now it has a new controller. It's the Malibu Stacey with a new hat phenomenom. It's different enough to be "new" but not different enough to be scary. 3) The is exactly the same as everyone other console but now it has a new . It's the Malibu Stacey with a new hat phenomenom. It's different enough to be "new" but not different enough to be scary.

      fixed that for you.

      On a side note, what Nintendo system has NOT had a new controller?

    21. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by the_tsi · · Score: 1

      I love the "more fun" claim being brought up in any conversation regarding consoles. As near as I can tell, "more fun" really means "more nostalgic" or more concretely "more franchises that I remember liking as a kid" or even more concretely "more franchises that I remember being popular as a kid".

    22. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by c_forq · · Score: 1

      Yes and no. I don't think the Slashdot Groupthink evaluates itself, so the issue never really comes up. I think you are correct when participants of the Groupthink evalute it though, as is seen by my modding (currently I see my view as 1 Informative, with 50% informative, 30% Overrated, and 20% Troll, so it appears to be imploding rather than exploding, but still caught in a zero-sum game).

      --
      Computers allow humans to make mistakes at the fastest speeds known, with the possible exception of tequila and handguns
    23. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by king-manic · · Score: 1

      Because the Wii is more fun than the PS3 (IMO), so the better the Wii does, the better the odds that more fun games will come out for it. Simple as that.

      Fun is subjective. Wario ware + wii sports + rayman all RPGS ever made for any system. However I have a thousand dollar game library and multiple systems she has a wii, wii sports a game cube and mario party 6. Time will tell which market is more profitable. I hope to Odin it's US because I can't stand wario ware.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    24. Re:Slashdot groupthink? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably the kind that still calls their computers "computers" instead of "b0X3n" or something equally stupid. You know....the kind that don't have brain damage.

  12. Surprise! 360 vs PS3 in Japan still a fair fight by Eponymous+Crowbar · · Score: 1

    After all this time, it is surprising to me that the PS3 sales are only a little more than double the 360 sales. Yes, the 360 had a jump on the market but it is still a lot closer than I would have expected. People say that M$ should give up on that market -- maybe Sony should think along the same lines?

  13. HD TV is a big reason by Kohath · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The PS2 worked on your old TV. The PS3 does too, but you might as well buy a PS2 if you're running on old TV -- or wait on consoles altogether and save your money for a new TV.

    If there were as many HDTVs now as there were SDTVs when the PS2 was released, the PS3 would probably have sold as well as the PS2.

    1. Re:HD TV is a big reason by tzhuge · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "but you might as well buy a PS2 if you're running on old TV" That's really just not true. There's still worlds of difference between a PS3 on a SDTV and a PS2 on a SDTV. Certainly there are other things to recommend the PS2 (price and the huge games library), but this notion that this new crop of consoles isn't any better than the previous generation on SDTV is just plain false.
    2. Re:HD TV is a big reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes - this is the reason I'm not buying a PS3.

    3. Re:HD TV is a big reason by nastro · · Score: 1

      If there were as many HDTVs now as there were SDTVs when the PS2 came out, a lot more people could afford the PS3, I'd bet.

    4. Re:HD TV is a big reason by jZnat · · Score: 1

      You could say the same thing about the 360 regarding HDTV (have you tried playing Xbox 360 games on an SDTV? good luck reading the text if you don't have an enormous TV in the first place).

      --
      'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
    5. Re:HD TV is a big reason by GeckoX · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not an exclusive argument though, but of course, this is /. so I must forgive the expected assumption that all is binary.

      The PS2 had extra selling features that for those with a PS2 and a SDTV already, the PS3 just doesn't offer. The PS2 was the first DVD player for a LOT of people, and that worked with their SDTV as well.

      Most people do NOT have HDTV's, so those people do not care about BluRay being a feature. People also tend to feel that they'd be missing out on the game experience if they were to play PS3 games on their SDTV...that does not insinuate at all that PS3 games wouldn't look better than PS2 games on an SDTV, of course not. It's just not a deal maker by any means.

      Further, the massive existing PS2 base have large PS2 libraries at this point, and some of the best games to come out on the PS2 have come out recently or are coming out soon. It's not a dead horse, unlike the PS1 basically was when the PS2 came out.

      Further, the game console market is much more saturated this time around than it was when the PS2 first came out.

      Further, the must have PS3 games aren't there yet in the quantities required to really push adoption solely based on that front. It's coming, but we're still in the very initial uptake curve of a new console.

      At this point, just about anything could happen in the future of the PS3 in terms of uptake and success, not all of which is in Sony's control.

      --
      No Comment.
    6. Re:HD TV is a big reason by Raenex · · Score: 1

      have you tried playing Xbox 360 games on an SDTV? good luck reading the text if you don't have an enormous TV in the first place Yeah, that really pisses me off. There's no excuse for it, yet nearly every damn game suffers this problem. No quality control from Microsoft.
  14. Re:Surprise! 360 vs PS3 in Japan still a fair figh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Um, no. The 360 had a YEAR head start!

  15. It's the games, stupid by nuzak · · Score: 1

    For what it can do, the PS3 is not at all too expensive for me -- I'll qualify that I'm an American, I know that Europeans are getting a raw deal -- but there's a simple reason I still don't have one: no games. Seriously, take a look at ebGames, and virtually every title is scheduled for the end of the year or next year. And the titles that are out frankly don't do much for me.

    Perhaps I'll get one in 2008, but by then I bet I can pick up newer-generation XBox360 and a ton of used games for it. Viva Pinata for the GF, Overlord for myself... Both exclusives, too. Well, if I'm in the mood for a Blu-Ray player perhaps, but I bet there will be much cheaper ones out by then.

    Talk about going out with a shrug.

    --
    Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
    1. Re:It's the games, stupid by Gravatron · · Score: 1
      The game situation is pretty much always like that first year. Look at the box, only a handful of interesting stuff till gears hit home. Ps2 had a simular fate back in the day. It was all ssx or doa2 till around that summer, when we saw some of the big guns finally hit.


      The ps3's titles right nwo are somewhat limited, same with the wii, with only MS having a large selection availible. On the ps3 its pretty much all about oblivian, resistance, mortorstorm, and ninja gaiden. on the wii, Zeldas been pretty much the only must have. In the near future, you have quite a few sony titles comming, with only metroid this fall on the wii and brawl this december.


      Honestly hwo the wii's selling i'm not sure, doesn't have a library, and doesn't look like a hit filled fall for it, outside a few titles. In all honesty 360 should be outselling it, no clue why its not. I'd wadger price has to do with it, combined with MS's horrible reputation.

    2. Re:It's the games, stupid by IpalindromeI · · Score: 1

      Honestly hwo the wii's selling i'm not sure, doesn't have a library,

      It doesn't have a library for gamers, you mean. Many of the people buying Wiis are those that haven't owned consoles in the past. They don't play through a game in two days and need something else. They'll be happy playing the same two or three games in half hour stints for a couple months. Believe me, if you're a casual gamer, there are more than enough good Wii games out right now. Only "hardcore" gamers are complaining of a game drought on the Wii.

      --

      --
      Promoting critical thinking since 1994.
    3. Re:It's the games, stupid by Knara · · Score: 1

      Ah, the oft-mentioned but rarely quantified "casual gamer".

    4. Re:It's the games, stupid by ShadowsHawk · · Score: 1

      Overlord has been released on the PC.

    5. Re:It's the games, stupid by powerlord · · Score: 1

      yes, but how many games are the "Casual Gamers" going to buy?

      I know quite a few people who thought their Nintendo GBA was a portable Tetris machine ... and nothing else.

      --
      This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
  16. How is the appeal? by anduz · · Score: 1

    I walked in on a conversation with two Japanese exchange students who were talking with our very own household Sony fanboy about how far away the great games were. This at first seemed pretty odd to me because games like Assassins Creed and GTA IV aren't too far out and they look fairly awesome to me; but apparently they don't hold much appeal to these Japanese guys in particular. Of course these are just two guys, but if that's the trend in Japan then it's frankly not a big surprise and perhaps not due to change anytime soon.

    Of course the PS2 didn't launch with a great line-up either, but I think that is where the price plays into the picture. It's one thing to expect your loyal fans to buy a console where the really awesome games are months/years out when it's cheap and also functions as a dvd player; it was a risk that but it sure worked out for Sony in the end. Maybe this time they pushed it too far, with the console being expensive, the great games being even further out and perhaps high definition formats aren't as big as expected just yet?

  17. Its all about money! by Xjuan · · Score: 1

    Wii 3M x $250 = $750M PS3 1M x $600 = $600M 360 0.5M x $400 = $200M we better do not consider earnings! hehe

    1. Re:Its all about money! by rbarreira · · Score: 1

      Who cares about revenue? Profits are what matters, and the way things are going, the PS3 won't have them for a few years, if at all...

      --

      The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
    2. Re:Its all about money! by ProppaT · · Score: 1

      Now do the rest of the math...

      Nintendo profits off of every Wii sold. Sony (apparently) looses money on each PS3 sold, as does Microsoft with the 360. So it looks to me that the only console that's in the green is the Wii.

      --
      Wise men say, "Forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza."
    3. Re:Its all about money! by DrEldarion · · Score: 1

      If you actually have real numbers to show that they're losing money on sold PS3s, I'd like to see them. So far, the only figures I've seen have been analysts talking out of their asses.

    4. Re:Its all about money! by rbarreira · · Score: 1

      Well, I haven't seen anyone claiming the contrary. Noone!

      --

      The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
    5. Re:Its all about money! by nutshell42 · · Score: 1
      If it helps:

      Using advanced business analyzement systematics, nutshell42, principal analyst of the nutshell42 Group reached the conclusion that Sony Corp leverages a synergistic profit of $40 on every PLAYSTATION 3 sold. The costs break down as follows:

      Cell: $85
      RSX: $92
      256MB GDR: $25
      256MB sthDR: $28
      Blu-Ray drive: $101
      Mainboard and Cooling: $32
      Harddrive: $18
      I/O, Bluetooth, etc: $15
      WiFi: $23
      SIXAXIS, various: $11
      Case, Assembly and Shipping: $30
      Total: $459

      .

      The nutshell42 Group helps businesses realize eBusiness synergies since Juli 2007. It is the leading partner for up-to-date strategy evaluations in the technology sector, providing members of /.inc with all the facts they need to achieve a competitive advantage.

      Sony, Corp. is the leading provider of highest value entertainment systems and integrated solutions. Moving decisively to shape the living room of tomorrow.*

      *: I dare you to find one sentence in all this drivel that's more bullshit than all those other analyst crap out there =)

      --
      Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
    6. Re:Its all about money! by king-manic · · Score: 1

      Now do the rest of the math...

      Nintendo profits off of every Wii sold. Sony (apparently) looses money on each PS3 sold, as does Microsoft with the 360. So it looks to me that the only console that's in the green is the Wii.

      The Wii is undeniably profitable. The PS3 is "thought" to be sold at a loss but they said the same thing about the PS2 and they were wrong. According to several announcements, outside of the first month the PS2 was making money but "analysts" predicted a long long period of selling at a loss. Analysts make random assertions with any info they get. The 360 was marginally profitable from the start if you didn't count sunk R&D but it was the high fail rate that incurs a lot of the extra costs and pushes back into the red. We don't know the individual margins but we do know the division as a whole lost a lot of money. So unless the Games division throws nightly stripper parties with free coke, has an glass ceiling office in downtown dallas, or spent 7 billion making the masterchiefs suit for real they are likely losing their shirts on warranty and repair or their defective machines or they are still selling 360's at a loss and the analysts who predicted marginal profitability were talking out their ass.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    7. Re:Its all about money! by rbarreira · · Score: 1

      Straight from the horse's mouth:

      http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?st ory=14849

      --

      The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
  18. Sony parallels nintendo by Squarewav · · Score: 1

    The same thing is happening to sony that happened to nintendo during the N64 generation. Both companies had 2 generations of market dominance (nes.snes, ps1,ps2). Then they got cocky and thought the fan base would overlook obvious flaws, with nintendo it was carts on the N64 and sony its the price tag, lack of innovation in the controller (really now how long is sony going to hang on to the dual shock disgn) and lack of any major exclusive games at launch.

    1. Re:Sony parallels nintendo by Dan+Ost · · Score: 1

      really now how long is sony going to hang on to the dual shock disgn

      Sony managed to design a great controller early on. Why change it if they can't improve on it?

      In my opinion, it's the best controller design out there. It's comfortable to hold, none of the buttons are awkward to hit, and I can play it for hours without getting cramps or stiffness in my hands. I can't say that about any other controller (especially the 360 controller...something about it makes my left hand hurt after an hour or so of play).

      --

      *sigh* back to work...
    2. Re:Sony parallels nintendo by Squarewav · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I suppose its a matter of opion. I personaly cant stand the spot the analog stick is, I find it hard to hold my thumb that far down for long periods of time esp after using a 360 or even gamecube controller. If the analog stick was ware the d-pad is and vice versa I would like it alot more. The dual shock was pritty much a hack to add analog sticks to the original ps1 controller w/o changing the button layout for older games.

    3. Re:Sony parallels nintendo by stewbee · · Score: 1

      Ironically (at least to me), the cartridges is one of the reasons that I purchased the N64. I watched someone play the PS1 (I think the game was resident evil),and you had to wait about 10 to 20 seconds for the next stage to load. The read rate of CD-ROMS at the time were not that good. With cartridges, the load times were much shorter. Only after a while did I realize that the limited size of memory on the cartridge would limit you racing game upon racing game (my one major gripe about the N64)!

      I do not regret buying my NG4. I thought that it was the technologically superior hardware at the time*, and at a better price ($199 vs $299)**

      * this is an objective remark. I did not actually do a side by side comparison of specs in 1996.
      ** Prices found from wikipedia

    4. Re:Sony parallels nintendo by Krakhan · · Score: 1

      I found that later on in the life cycle the loading times for the PS1 didn't become much of an issue. I assume this is because of some tricks that the game devs came up with later on in the life cycle of the PS1. Final Fantasy VII did some funky stuff with the camera for each battle before it actually started, if I recall correctly. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night had extra rooms that a player walked through while the next area of the game was loading in the background.

      So I would assume the loading issues were only a big deal with the first batch of games that came out for the PS1. Never underestimate the cleverness of hacks! :P

    5. Re:Sony parallels nintendo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It wasn't "pritty[sic] much a hack" it *was* a hack.

      See, Nintendo had come out with this revolutionary new controller that sported an analog stick and rumble features, so Sony had to come out with a new controller that did the exact same thing, but was never designed to include the feature from the start.

      For some reason, that sounds strangely familiar to recent events...

    6. Re:Sony parallels nintendo by catprog · · Score: 1

      The only area the PS1 was better then the N64 was in media size.

      --
      My Transformation Website
      Kindle Books http://www.catprog.org/rev
      Interactive CYOA http://www.catprog.org/st
  19. Cue Tom Waits... by sokoban · · Score: 1

    Tom Waits
    "Big In Japan"

    I got the style but not the grace
    I got the clothes but not the face
    I got the bread but not the butter
    I got the winda but not the shutter

    But I'm big in Japan I'm big in Japan But heh I'm big in Japan

    I got the house but not the deed
    I got the horn but not the reed
    I got the cards but not the luck
    I got the wheel but not the truck

    But heh I'm big in Japan I'm big in Japan I'm big in Japan

    I got the moon I got the cheese I got the whole damn nation
    On its knees I got the rooster I got the crow
    I got the ebb I got the flow

    I got the powder but not the gun
    I got the dog but not the bun
    I got the clouds but not the sky
    I got the stripes but not the tie

    But heh I'm big in Japan I'm big in Japan I'm big in Japan

    Heh ho they love the way I do it
    Heh ho there's really nothing to it

    I got the moon I got the cheese
    I got the whole damn nation on their knees
    I got the rooster I got the crow
    I got the ebb I got the flow

    I got the sizzle but not the steak
    I got the boat but not the lake
    I got the sheets but not the bed
    I got the jam but not the bread

    But heh I'm big in Japan I'm big in Japan I'm big in Japan
    I'm big in Japan, I'm big in Japan

    --
    09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 is the magic number.
  20. 599 reasons by mapmaker · · Score: 4, Funny
    Do you think there is a specific reason the PS3 isn't selling as well as the PlayStation 2 did?

    No, there isn't a single specific reason. It's a combination of 599 reasons.

    1. Re:599 reasons by Doctor_Jest · · Score: 1

      I guess that means there's 499 reasons why the 360 hasn't sold in Japan like the PS2. :)

      --
      It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
  21. I need R&C on my PS3 .... by OldHawk777 · · Score: 1

    I don't enjoy the realistic simulations/games to fycking depressing ... I am good at FPS.

    I have all the PS2 R&C and want another R&C for the PS3 before I upgrade to a 32in WQXGA monitor.

    !HAVEFUN!

    --
    Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
    1. Re:I need R&C on my PS3 .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do realise that ! in SQL mean is 'not', which would make your ending in SQL probably correct.
      'not'HAVEFUN

  22. Even the Wii didn't hit that.... huh? by falcon5768 · · Score: 1
    There are a multitude of factors why the Wii didnt hit 1 mil it's first weekend in Japan, but I would think the biggest one would be because unlike the PS2, the Wii launched in Japan and the US at the same time, and thus split its stock among the two nations. There was a decent gap of time between the PS2's Japan launch and the US one, and in between Japan had almost 0 PS2s in stock anywhere as they where all diverted to the US launch to cover the mil promised here.

    Hard to hit a million your first weekend when there is not enough out there.

    --

    "Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."

  23. Price + DVD + no competition = more sales by llZENll · · Score: 1

    The PS2 when it came out was almost half what the PS3 costs, all things else being equal that should equate to more than double the PS3 sales right there, add in the fact that the PS2 was a cheap DVD player when people actually needed a DVD player, add in a whole bunch more sales. There was little to no competition for the PS2 when it was released, add in even more sales. Sony had not released a rootkit or 50 new memory formats for people to balk at.

    My guess is the 2 biggest problems for Sony in Japan is #1 the Wii, #2 the high price.

    1. Re:Price + DVD + no competition = more sales by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      You better put on your asbestos clothing, 'cause that "No competition" comment is about to get you roasted by all the Dreamcast fanboys out there.

      Anyway, I think the two biggest problems really are #1 the lack of HDTVs, and #2 the lack of franchise titles.

  24. Brain take a vacation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do you think there is a specific reason the PS3 isn't selling as well as the PlayStation 2 did....
    Honestly, how dense can you possibly be? It's the price, stupid. Secondarily, the paucity of decent games.
  25. I just bought... by Deliveranc3 · · Score: 1

    a PS2, I was waiting for the PS3 (I wanted backwards compatibility never having owned the earlier consoles) but was disapointed.

    I have $3000 I don't know what to do with but I've decided to hold off on a $400 purchase to go with a $100 purchase (Ps2 Craigslist, 1 wireless controller memory card, 40 games) I just didn't want to subsidize Microsoft and the other consoles haven't consolidated yet (:P).

    The PS3 kicks ass for 1 reason, downloadable free content, tonnes of demos and previews. Once you get beyond those and start actually looking at it's game library it gets really grim...

    The PS3 won't be as successful as the PS2 it's already over, that's what this article is addressing.

    1. Re:I just bought... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PS3 looks like it will seriously kick ass. My friend just got one. Check out the E3 trailers from Lair, Heaven's Sword, Killzone, Unreal Tourny.... Looks jaw dropping amazing. I doubt the xbox is capable of managing that level, and maybe when the people waiting for their broken xboxes to be serviced by MS start to see some of this there'll be a lot of used xbox's for sale. Sony did mess up the launch and those titles aren't out yet. But I hardly think the PS3 is in any trouble.

  26. Re:Surprise! 360 vs PS3 in Japan still a fair figh by Osty · · Score: 1

    After all this time, it is surprising to me that the PS3 sales are only a little more than double the 360 sales. Yes, the 360 had a jump on the market but it is still a lot closer than I would have expected. People say that M$ should give up on that market -- maybe Sony should think along the same lines?

    Microsoft has much different goals and expectations in Japan than Sony does. While Japan is still a huge video game market, and Microsoft would love to do well there, they realize that it's a very difficult market to enter as a non-Japanese company. As such, sales expectations are quite low. Sony, on the other hand, is a Japanese company and the Japanese market is supposed to be their cash cow. Only holding a 2x lead over Microsoft in Japan is terrible.

    Microsoft could give up on the Japanese market now that they've gotten many Japanese developers on their side (Capcom, Konami, SEGA, etc), but I doubt they will in fear of losing those same developers. Sony simply can't give up on the Japanese market, because that would kill them in every other market as well.

  27. It's the lack of games. by MaWeiTao · · Score: 1

    The problem with the PS3 is not price. The iPhone costs as much as a PS3 and people are happily spending money on that. I'd argue that the PS3 provides more value for the money. Well, except for one big problem. There are few good games available for the PS3 and virtually no great games. That is why the PS3 isn't selling. I guarantee if the library of games were stronger we'd see far fewer people complaining about price.

    1. Re:It's the lack of games. by manux · · Score: 1

      The problem Sony seems to be experiencing right now is that it's faced with a downward spiral: some developers seem to be waiting on releasing their games for the PS3 until the install base is larger; meanwhile, many consumers (myself included) are waiting on purchasing the PS3 until more games are made available for it. Lose/Lose situation for the PS3...

  28. Re: Question... by Fallen+Kell · · Score: 1

    "Do you think there is a specific reason the PS3 isn't selling as well as the PlayStation 2 did, or is the market just a different place than it was 7 years ago?"

    Ummm... PRICE? In 2000, the PS2 released with a price of 39,800 Yen (with an exchange rate of 106.31 Yen to US Dollar), which made it ~$375 US. The 60GB PS3 (the only one with full functionality) launched at a price of 62,800 Yen. So not quite double the launch price, but that is pretty high.

    --
    We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
  29. Nintendo may count console warranty activations by tepples · · Score: 1

    Shipped is way easer to estimate, as you know how many you have sent out the door, it's very difficult to get sales estimates from the countless different realtailers. Nintendo seems to have no trouble reporting sold figures. I don't think it would be that hard to count the console warranty activations when retailers scan the console's serial barcode.
  30. Is there a SPECIFIC reason it took so long? by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    Hmm, other than Price ...

    Let's see, only one good release game, tons of time wasted on graphics and close to zilch on game play, being stuck with Blu-Ray which means little if you are one of the two-thirds with 480i or lower TV reception, ...

    Nope, can't think of anything.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  31. Everyone has DVD players now by CokoBWare · · Score: 1

    Nuf said... I think that's why the PS2 was popular. Now that DVD players are cheap as dirt, nobody cares about the XBox platform or the PS3 in Japan. DVD is way more compelling a switch than Blu-Ray, considering everyone emptied their pockets on the DVD generation. It's going to take quite a few more years yet to inspire people to switch to the high-def formats and equipment.

  32. Even Piñata Crossing? by tepples · · Score: 1

    The consensus from Japan seems to be Gears is fine (not great), everything else sucks. Even Piñata Crossing? Why do Japanese people think Viva Piñata sucks?
    1. Re:Even Piñata Crossing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do Japanese people think Viva Piñata sucks?
      The 360 in Japan is considered a "hardcore gamer's console", even more so than in the US if that's even possible. Viva Piñata isn't even on the Japanese 360 owners' rader.
  33. What Khronos giveth, the hypervisor taketh away by tepples · · Score: 1

    I am continually impressed that Sony (or something, at least) has managed to turn Slashdot against a console which [...] uses open standards and API's from the Khronos Group for almost everything, and officially supports linux Except the hypervisor denies access to the "open standards and API's from the Khronos Group" in Linux mode, and even PS3 Linux's 2D graphics driver struggles to keep up.
  34. There's two big reasons by Talgrath · · Score: 1

    1. The PS3's price is too high for some people, mind you, I have a PS3 and didn't mind paying the price (mind you, I didn't mind paying a mere few hundred bucks for the PS3, but others do). 2. When the PS2 shipped, it was the cheapest DVD player out there; if you look at the initial statistics on what people were playing on their PS2, the top discs played were DVDs. To be honest, people aren't nearly as excited about Blu-ray and HD-DVD as they were about DVDs (with good reasons).

  35. Re: Question... by king-manic · · Score: 1

    Ummm... PRICE? In 2000, the PS2 released with a price of 39,800 Yen (with an exchange rate of 106.31 Yen to US Dollar), which made it ~$375 US. The 60GB PS3 (the only one with full functionality) launched at a price of 62,800 Yen. So not quite double the launch price, but that is pretty high.

    Both currencies have dipped int he last several years so it's a bit of an unfair comparison. For the cash of value of a ps2 you would have spent on other stuff in 2000 you can get slightly more (20-30%) for the value of a PS3 today. Thats sort of subjective too since a lot of goods find a certain price point and never move despite increase in costs. For Canadians we didn't see such a ludicrious price increase because.. well our dollar didn't nose dive like the Americans did.

    --
    "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
  36. Giant enemy crabs by Wiseman1024 · · Score: 1

    Five hundred and ninety-nine U.S. dollars
    Five hundred and ninety-nine U.S. dollars
    Five hundred and ninety-nine U.S. dollars

    And not even three interesting games you can't play on other platforms.

    The most expensive box of giant enemy crabs ever created.

    --
    I was about to say 13256278887989457651018865901401704640, but it appears this number is private property.
    1. Re:Giant enemy crabs by Mark+Gillespie · · Score: 1

      OK, i'll bite your troll post.

      1/ it's £499 dollars. Where have you been?

      2/ I can name 3 games with playing, out now, not avilable anywhere else (infact i'll name 5)

      Motorstorm, Resistance (easy so far), SuperStardustHD (best $8 ever spent), Ninja Gaiden Sigma, Calling All Cars (nice cheap, fun game)

  37. toolbox by LKM · · Score: 1

    You do not, I repeat loudly, DO NOT have to move and flail and point and swing like you see in the commercials, nor do you have to move like you're really swinging a tennis racket, etc.

    Actually, you do not have to do that, but really, you want to do it.

    You can play that way. But it makes you a fucking toolbox.

  38. Its the price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here in australia, its $1000.

    That is a lot of cash.

  39. Shortage at launch by Nazmun · · Score: 1

    While the ps2 had 1,000,000 units it's first weekend the ps3 had a few thousand and it was shared with oversea's buyers and the homeless. In addition to that online auctioneers. The result, actual japanese gamers and american gamers didn't really get their hands on it to spread any hype. Everything seems to have been botched.

    THe "worldwide launch aka u.s./japan" just meant retarded shortages at launch since they didn't make enough.
    The ridiculous price.
    The lack of good games at launch to justify the price.
    Horrible marketing (zomg scary baby, oh ps3, wtf mate).
    The nintendo wii's massive hype and the 360 which has partly established itself.

    With so many things gone wrong the only way to resuscitate this is a major price drop again + hot games + renewed marketing blitz. Somehow i doubt all three of these will happen simultaneously this year.

    --
    Hmmm... Pie...
  40. ps3 vs ps2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    this has probably already been stated but the simple fact is that the ps3 costs to mich, the ps2 was a lot cheaper when it came out

  41. Ask and ye shall receive... by Intellectual+Elitist · · Score: 1

    Here you go. Better start saving your pennies...

  42. Thus the solution by patio11 · · Score: 1

    Somebody needs to flip the price on its back and hit it for massive damage. I think whacking 200 HP off of it might make it worthwhile to buy... sometime... pending a game I actually want to play on it. As it is, I can get a new Wii game and have great fun for a month without blowing half of my discretionary income for the month on it.

    --
    Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.
  43. Re:THANKS, I need R&C on my PS3 .... by OldHawk777 · · Score: 1

    Dang, I didn't know that, but until I get my new R&C game in the fall "!HAVEFUN!" is very eloquent (I think?).

    at +55yo, I don't know why I (for sure) like the goofy R&C. I played all the DukeNukem, Wolfenstein, and DOOM on PC (well the last Wolf* was on PS2), but now the more realistic (DOOM, HalfLife, ...) FPS games put me in a foul mood for hours. I seek the more entertaining artistic/comical (less dark) FPS/Adven games. I have never seen apocalypse now, full metal jacket ... to much to think about. The sports (Madden who?) and driving (Nascar) stuff doers nothing for me. I like to get lost, slap-stick whack a few things, and chuckle often when I am gaming. Online, If I respawn to often I look for some other place, my EHC and reflexes are not up to juvenile speed anymore [DANG!].

    --
    Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
  44. Re: Even Sony thinks the Wii is more Fun... by trdrstv · · Score: 1

    I love the "more fun" claim being brought up in any conversation regarding consoles. As near as I can tell, "more fun" really means "more nostalgic" or more concretely "more franchises that I remember liking as a kid" or even more concretely "more franchises that I remember being popular as a kid".

    It's hard to not come up when even Sony claims the Wii is more fun.

  45. Re:THANKS, Ask and ye shall receive... by OldHawk777 · · Score: 1

    Dear 31!7!57,

    You are so 5W337 for giving me that link .... I have been looking out for the PS3 R&C for far to long. I was beginning to wonder (@+55yo) if I would be dead before the next release. I am comforted to know that I only need to survive until winter (I'll need a little playtime). Then again ... if the new R&C is really good ... it may give me a good reason for trying to survive for another decrepit year. I know, I should get a life, but I did not know who William Shatner was until I saw "Boston Legal" on TV this past year (think about it ...?).

    !HAVEFUN!

    --
    Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?