Ubuntu Dell Now In UK, France, and Germany

mrcgran writes "Dell announced the availability of Ubuntu in Europe and future plans for China. 'I hinted at this before, but today, it's official: Dell announced that consumers in the United Kingdom, France and Germany can order an Inspiron 6400 notebook or an Inspiron 530N desktop with Ubuntu 7.04 pre-installed... In his LinuxWorld keynote, Kevin Kettler announced that Dell and Novell intend to offer SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10 factory-installed on select consumer notebooks and desktops in China.'"

Comments

Canada?

[javacowboy]

Why wouldn't Dell extend this deal into Canada?

Seems like the next logical step since Canada is a very similar market to the U.S.

I don't buy the excuse that they would have to deal with French language regulations, since they're extending their deal to France and to another non-English country, namely, Germany.

Re:Canada?

[fosterNutrition]

Definitely a weird move... While this is obviously not a representative sample of the whole population of Canada, I know of at least two people who were holding off on much-needed laptop purchases in the hopes of Canada making that list. Guess Dell won't be getting their business yet.

Re:Canada?

[CastrTroy]

Also, Linux does quite well on the i8n front. Installing Mandriva, there was more languages then I could even name. Also, being a Canadian, I don't think that they are required to sell all their products in French. You don't see the book stores selling all the same books in both French and English. Then again, all the video games come with a French manual, even if the entire game is in English.

Re:Canada?

[fireheadca]

Quebec French language restrictions are probably to blame for this.

For example: France has 'Stop' signs whereas Quebec has 'Arretez'...

It should also be noted that Parisian french and Canadian french are bastard cousins of each other.

---
Dammit, it's my bike shed and it will be green.

Re:Canada?

[Benaiah]

Why wouldn't Dell extend this deal into Canada? No way... Aus is a more of a bitch of the US then Canada.

We should get Ubuntu dells first!!!

Re:Canada?

[Drakkoon]

If they want to sell in Québec, then they need to sell in french, it's required by the law here that everything is bilingual, but they already sell most models with french keyboards and french Vista. You can by a 1420 with french Vista, but you can't even by a 1420 with english Ubuntu over here. So I guess french isn't the problem.

Re:Canada?

[jonwil]

But does Ubuntu have an appropriate French Canadian localization? Selling a French France localization wouldn't work (since the languages are too different) and they can't sell just english either (because of the law) so they would need to do a French Canadian localization for Ubuntu.

Also, I don't believe there are laws in France requiring items to be sold in French.

Re:Canada?

[thatskinnyguy]

All I hear is whining out of people about this topic. If they really want to learn Linux, they should install it themselves. These people really need to know what a bitch it is to find Linux drivers for some devices instead of having it all done for them. Especially new hardware!

Really I see these Ubuntu boxes as nothing more than Windoze boxes only this time the re-load disk is something other than Winblows.

Re:Canada?

[gujo-odori]

Every non-Quebecois I know wishes Quebec would follow through on those threats to secede they make from time to time.

Why don't the other provinces just get together in a preemptive strike and kick Quebec out? If it's not consitutional, you could make it constitutional with only Quebec in opposition. Heck, if they even get wind of it, they'd get up on their high horse and just go ahead and secede and you'd be free of them :)

Then you could have Dells with Ubuntu right now :)

Re:Canada?

[Kadin2048]

Why don't the other provinces just get together in a preemptive strike and kick Quebec out?

Because Quebec controls the St. Lawrence Seaway, which is a major strategic/economic lifeline for a significant part of the Canadian interior. (Because it connects the Great Lakes to the Atlantic ocean, and gets used to take grain out.)

Perhaps that's not as big an issue as it once was -- I suspect there are many more grain exports to the U.S. and Asia than there are to Europe, now that the Cold War is over and people in Western Europe can get grain from former Eastern Bloc countries -- but I think that's one of the reasons why the rest of Canada will never just 'let go' of the entire eastern third (or so) of their country.

Re:Canada?

[Hucko]

Why so elitist? I only want it pre-installed to encourage more hardware support. Don't like it? Don't buy it. I would love to be able to buy one (I'm an Aussie), as a measure of my support of those supporting linux.

It is a good thing to popularise linux up to the point of critical mass for hardware manufacturers. As you should well know, at that point it becomes reasonable to expect manufacturers develop drivers for it. If that means ~25% of the market, I'd be happy.

Re:Canada?

[Fred_A]

Why wouldn't Dell extend this deal into Canada? Well, they could extend it to France as they claimed they did... I just did a search for "Ubuntu" on dell.fr and got a "Sorry, your search yielded no result" response (except it was "Désolé, aucun résultat trouvé" obviously).

Also I always wonder why PC makers who try this always do so only on their entry level model. As if they believed people got Linux because it was cheaper (hint : I seriously doubt that's the main reason for the great majority of users). I had my sight sets on something like the XPS M1330 based on its specs but of course that's not coming with Linux. (mumble mumble)

Re:Canada?

[daniorerio]

>Why wouldn't Dell extend this deal into Canada? Because France, Germany and the UK are bigger markets?

Re:Canada?

[tirenours]

In written form, the dialects don't differ that much. There is no need to have a French Canadian and a (European) French version of the same software.

For example, Microsoft Windows is localized for France.

Re:Canada?

[CastrTroy]

Precisely. Despite there being problems with deal in 2 languages because of Quebec, there are many advantages to having Quebec as part of Canada. First, you mentioned, the St. Lawrence Seaway, and also, the large number of hydro-electric dams that exist in the James Bay region. Having the maritime cut off from the rest of Canada, with the only way of getting to them to be going through another country (Quebec or the US) would be a major problem. Quebec is a very rich province, and it's not something that we want to get rid of.

Re:Canada?

[darthnoodles]

We also want the Maple Syrup.

Re:Canada?

[sayfawa]

Yes, Ubuntu (and most distros I imagine) have French Canadian localization as well as keyboard layouts. I was using them for a while when I wanted to improve my (Quebecois) French.

Re:Canada?

[hswerdfe]

Every non-Quebecois I know wishes Quebec would follow through on those threats to secede you probably know a lot of narrow minded people.
the Franciphone culture and its representation in the provence of Quebec are an important piece of Canada.
for more then just economic reasons.

Re:Canada?

[CastrTroy]

And Mt. Tremblant. Best skiing east of the rockies.

Re:Canada?

[dfiguero]

I don't buy the excuse that they would have to deal with French language regulations, since they're extending their deal to France and to another non-English country, namely, Germany. My guess is that even though Canada and France both use French they do so with a different locale. Maybe the Canadian-French market isn't as big as the France-French one?

Re:Canada?

[Doctor Crumb]

I would love to buy one for my parents, because then they will have someone to call with support questions other than me. They don't want to learn linux, they want a usable computer. So yes, these *are* the same as any OEM OS, which is a very good thing for linux.

(I am waiting impatiently for dell to offer them in canada).

Re:Canada?

[ricegf]

All I hear is whining out of people about this topic. If they really want to learn Vista they should install it themselves. These people really need to know what a bitch it is to find Vista drivers for some devices instead of having it all done for them. Especially existing hardware!

There, fixed it for ya.

Re:Canada?

[jez9999]

Also, Linux does quite well on the i8n front. Installing Mandriva, there was more languages then I could even name.

Does it include i8n 5p33k?

Seriously, why are otherwise-sensible programmers too lazy to type localization? I've never gotten it. Is it something to do with an old 8 character filename restriction?

Re:Canada?

[Jedimstr397]

Bah who needs Ubuntu? You can get a great laptop but with Fedora instead. And I hear it's only $150 bucks! Avail in Canada too!

Wow... MS really fractured OSS community...

[3seas]

...but apparently its the OSS fractions that's wedging into territory occupied by MS...

Re:Decision point

[pboyd2004]

The way I see it choice is good. Dell or other OEMs selling other OSes than just Windows is good for the customer. Even if they try to make it "into the Same Old Thing" it is still a different choice and that's a good thing.

Is this a win?

[Mukunda_NZ]

I feel this is only a win if Ubuntu and Suse stop embracing proprietary, non-free (as in freedom) drivers. If they don't then the hardware manufacturers will still in in control of your computer, and you'll be at their mercy if there are bugs in the drivers which make the hardware unusable with your selected distro. Only if there is a push for free drivers will this be a win for everyone, rather than just for Ubuntu, Suse and others that happily ship non-free drivers.

Re:Is this a win?

[bberens]

I have mixed feelings about proprietary software on a Dell box. On one hand I try to promote the open source movement where I think it belongs (generally speaking any software that 'everyone needs'). On the other hand I can see many people wanting to try this 'open source' thing buying a computer from trusty Dell and going WTF when they can't play a DVD in their DVD drive. Dell, having complete power over what it installs in the box should have no problem choosing only hardware with open drivers. At the same time I wouldn't mind it too badly if they cut a deal a la Linspire so that users could (legally) get DVD playback.

Re:Is this a win?

[Machtyn]

While I agree that Open Sourcing either the drivers would be good, I think I'd rather have the full microcode for the chipsets. That would give several different groups a chance at making drivers. I'm not sure why AMD/ATI and NVidia don't release the assembly code, they may find they would not have to work as hard on drivers and they just might get some free assistance in tracking down bugs in both Windows and any other OS. Having said all that, I'd rather take these baby steps with Dell offering any pre-installed Linux, whether it has open or closed source drivers, than not having any computer with pre-installed Linux. Besides, Dell's Ubuntu laptop offering has Intel graphics and wireless chipsets.

Re:Is this a win?

[grcumb]

I feel this is only a win if Ubuntu and Suse stop embracing proprietary, non-free (as in freedom) drivers. If they don't then the hardware manufacturers will still in in control of your computer, and you'll be at their mercy if there are bugs in the drivers which make the hardware unusable with your selected distro.

I am inclined to trust Mark Shuttleworth when he makes reasonable compromises to make PCs work today. I feel this way because he does so without relenting in his efforts to ensure that a Free Ubuntu remains available to all. It's obvious to anyone who watches how he spends his money that he really is committed to Software Freedom, and that Ubuntu and Canonical are simply means to achieve that end.

He is also a businessman who understands what is required to achieve acceptance of said Freedom in the real world. It's clear that there are interim steps involved, which involve dirtying one's shoes with proprietary kludges from time to time. It's a necessary step, not because of any innate shortcomings in the FOSS model, but because of limitations in the manufacture and marketing of proprietary hardware and software.

Free Software breeds more Free Software. It's not 'viral', as Microsoft likes to say - it's addictive. The benefits of openness and cooperation are immense in a world where intellectual wealth is infinitely replicable. Shuttleworth knows this. In order to addict a wider part of the population, therefore, it's necessary to ensure that some product (heh) reach them, even if it's been adulterated somewhat.

Re:Is this a win?

[pilot1]

And I see WTF right there, as proprietary drivers are not required to play DVD. You can play DVDs very well with readily available open source drivers. What are you trying to say, bberens? That spreading FUD is fun for you? Are you malicious or just ignorant? Proprietary drivers are not required to play DVDs, but this library is.

Re:Is this a win?

[Repossessed]

I'd call it that. I've got a fairly intimate knowledge of the Dell systems that can be configured with Ubuntu (I fix Dell's for a living). Dell tends to favor Intel for it's onboard graphics (and Linux users have little reason, to upgrade this). And Intel produces it's own open source* drivers. Sadly, right now it looks like the new Inspiron desktop doesn't have an onboard graphics option**, and the XPS machines never do, so until that changes, a pure open source system will have to be the notebooks.

*GPLv2 for kernel modules, MIT for other parts, which to my understanding is traditional for Linux drivers.

**I'm going to have to take a look at this when I get to work, but iirc, there's an onboard Intel GMA, even if they don't sell that as an option.

Footnote: Selling Ubuntu apparently worked, they've run out of 1505Ns already. Hopefully this will encourage them to widen the options a bit.

Re:Is this a win?

[utnapistim]

Free Software breeds more Free Software. It's not 'viral', as Microsoft likes to say - it's addictive.

That's not the same. Free software in itself is not 'viral'. The GNU (and similar licenses) could be viewed as viral though.

In working for a corporation, I've seen the "why not use open source?" question asked a few times, and the answers are the same everytime:

free open source is fine

stay away from GNU

I don't know, let us see the license .

We (for example) use the ACE framework with no problems, but the managers and the legal department around here are terrified that if GNU code entered our codebase someone would scream "show us the sourcecode!" for everything.

Because of this, I tend to agree with you that OSS is addictive, but can be viral for corporations if it comes with attached conditions (at least for corporations drawing their profit from closed source).

I don't mean to troll here, but "free with conditions" is not actually free after all (at least not for some).

Re:Is this a win?

[Repossessed]

Addendum. There *is* a Intel GMA something or other on the 530 lineup, but in order to get it, you'll have to pay 50 dollars more, and Ubuntu won't be preinstalled. (Go to Dell.com/open and click on shop for FreeDOS)

It makes no sense to me either.

Another nifty trick? They have an ultra low end (as in celeron) machine with Vista on it, will only cost you 400 dollars and should run Linux great (except the modem, which will be useless).

Okay, so I'm borderline astroturfing at this point. I'm being honest about it though.

Re:Is this a win?

[naich]

No it isn't. That library is required to play DVDs that have been encrypted with CSS. Any other DVD plays fine without it.

Re:Is this a win?

[MooUK]

That library is also completely open.

Re:Is this a win?

[cortana]

Wrong. I have installed Ubuntu on two separate machines, and both times I got non-free drivers installed by default, and the 'restricted' component of the package repository enabled ('multiverse' too, I think).

Re:Is this a win?

[Fred_A]

Apparently because it's not wholly theirs to release. At least that's what they claim.

Re:Is this a win?

[trifish]

That's not the same. Free software in itself is not 'viral'. The GNU (and similar licenses) could be viewed as viral though.

Absolutely. See here for more detailed explanation of why even truly open source software (BSD, Mozilla License) often can't even touch GPLed code. Sadly, GPL is viral and prevents co-operation even in the open source world. It's not MS who says it's viral, it's open source developers who do.

Re:Is this a win?

[Virgil Tibbs]

Considering the UK does not recognise software paptents, can't we jus distribute with libdvdcss? Only if we are distributing to the poor US would it be liable to leagal grey areas.

Re:Is this a win?

[cortana]

I didn't state my opinion on whether having the non-free stuff installed was a good or bad thing... I just wanted to correct the chap who claimed that this was not the case.

Re:Is this a win?

[bberens]

First I want to thank the GP for clarifying what I meant, it's obviously not a hardware driver that's the problem, it's the ability to decode and play most DVD videos. The problem with your statement is that joe user who wants to try the 'open source' thing doesn't get it and doesn't care.

Re:Is this a win?

[Kjella]

No it isn't. That library is required to play DVDs that have been encrypted with CSS. Any other DVD plays fine without it.

<Joe User>In other words, it doesn't play DVDs.</Joe User>

Seriously, do you know anyone that *only* use their DVD player to watch home-made DVDs and pr0n, which are generally the only DVDs without? Note that people that only download DVDs from the net don't count, since they don't give a shit about legality anyway.

While your technically correct, for practical purposes Linux doesn't play DVDs without that library. If anyone ever sold a DVD player that didn't play CSS'd DVDs, it'd clearly be unfit for purpose. Linux without that library is not fit to be a DVD player, and there's no point in claiming otherwise.

Re:Is this a win?

[mhall119]

Ubuntu ships with all default drivers being free. I think this may have been the case with Ubuntu <= 7.04, but I think the next release (7.10) will install proprietary video drivers by default if needed to run Compiz. It will probably have a message when installing that proprietary drivers are needed and why they are considered bad, and give you the option at install time to not use them.

Re:Is this a win?

[cortana]

The UK does recognise software patents; check out http://mp3licensing.com/patents/index.html for a list to start with.

Even if we didn't recognise software patents, there is still the problem that libdvdcss is made illegal by our implementation of the EUCD.

Re:Is this a win?

[mhall119]

Only 'main' and 'restricted' are enabled by default, from my experience anyway, 'universe' and 'multiverse' have to be enabled by the user. I've also never gotten proprietary video drivers for my nvidia card on a default install, though this may change in Ubuntu 7.10. What non-free drivers were installed by default on your machines?

Re:Is this a win?

[cortana]

I got the linux-restricted-modules-$KVERS package installed by default. I'm uncertain whether universe/multiverse were enabled by default (I needed xserver-xorg-video-intel and I think that I saw that they were enabled when I went to do it myself).

Re:Is this a win?

[mhall119]

Ok, I see what you're saying now. I too got the linux-restricted-modules installed by default, but none of the drivers were enabled by default. I guess they just install them so that things like "Desktop Effects" could be enabled quickly. For things like kernel drivers, I don't usually think of them as "installed" if they aren't loaded into the running kernel, but you are right, I did have them.

Re:Is this a win?

[pilot1]

Yes, it's open. That doesn't necessarily mean it can be distributed without breaking other laws.
From the wikipedia article I linked earlier:

In many countries it is forbidden to sell or document programs that provide ways around copy prevention systems. CSS is not a copy prevention system, but rather primarily a region-control market segmentation system.[citation needed] Despite this fact, many Linux distributions do not contain libdvdcss (for example Debian, SUSE Linux, and Ubuntu) due to fears of running afoul of DMCA-style laws.

Re:Is this a win?

[jez9999]

We (for example) use the ACE framework [wustl.edu] with no problems, but the managers and the legal department around here are terrified that if GNU code entered our codebase someone would scream "show us the sourcecode!" for everything.

And your legal dept. have a problem with that, why? Because you're relying on closed-source to make money instead of providing ongoing services for clients that they couldn't get otherwise get with just the sourcecode? Maybe you need a new businessmodel.

Re:Is this a win?

[utnapistim]

And your legal dept. have a problem with that, why? Because you're relying on closed-source to make money instead of providing ongoing services for clients that they couldn't get otherwise get with just the sourcecode? Maybe you need a new businessmodel.

They're making over 2 billion dollars a year in profit (and have been for some years) and they're in the top 5 providers for their domain (though this position is self-proclaimed, so it might not be really that accurate). Considering their purpose is making money and not software (that is just a means of making money) I'd say their business model seems spot-on.

It may not be the moral ideal you (or I) are aspiring to, but good luck trying to explain that to the share-holders.

Re:Is this a win?

[JohnBailey]

Is Joe user any better off with Windows? Be honest. We all come across people who would be barred for life if they drove like they use a computer. At least the most common problems of never defragging and not using a virus scanner are not issues with Linux. As to playing DVDs.. I know a few who have installed third party DVD playing software and expected their CD drive to magically be transformed.

KDE?

[Karma Sucks]

Is KDE the default on any of these configurations?

Re:KDE?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's Gnome for Ubuntu.

Re:KDE?

[plaxion]

If you purchase a Dell system with Ubuntu installed on it you can easily install KDE onto it, either through the graphical Synaptic package manager or by simply typing the following in a terminal:

sudo aptitude update && sudo aptitude install kubuntu-desktop

Re:KDE?

[compro01]

though you can always get Kbuntu, though i find the application management isn't nearly as streamlined as the GNOME one is. then again, i haven't tried kbuntu in a few versions, so it might have improved since then.

Re:KDE?

[Daengbo]

I was apt-getting while you were still in diapers

That's interesting, considering Debian is just about the same age as his UID is. Heck, mine's seven years old, I think.

Re:KDE?

[kripkenstein]

Is KDE the default on any of these configurations?

No. GNOME is the default on all distros that are likely to be pre-installed these days, Ubuntu, SUSE and Red Hat/Fedora.

You can of course very easily install KDE on these systems, a simple apt-get on Ubuntu for example.

The reason, I suspect, is mostly the licensing of Qt and KDE, which is the GPL (and not LGPL, which GTK+ is). This makes it less corporate-friendly, in a way. It probably explains the big shift to GNOME in the major distros, as well as the focus on GNOME in nearly all the new mobile Linux initiatives.

Re:KDE?

[CarpetShark]

Of course, GNU have said that "LPGL represents a retreat for [them]", so getting "acceptance" of GNOME through that route doesn't really count as winning any sort of Free Software battle.

Re:KDE?

[EsbenMoseHansen]

The reason, I suspect, is mostly the licensing of Qt and KDE, which is the GPL (and not LGPL, which GTK+ is). This makes it less corporate-friendly, in a way. It probably explains the big shift to GNOME in the major distros, as well as the focus on GNOME in nearly all the new mobile Linux initiatives.

KDE's libraries are LGPL, so it's only QT libs that are GPL'ed, though that is of little consequence as of the present. And I don't worry too much about KDEs future, the shift to GNOME just mark the entering of the non-powerusers into the linux system. KDE is empowerment, features and customizability. Gnome is "get-the-hell-out-of-my-way", "do-as-little-as-possible" and conformality. Nothing wrong with either one, as long as I don't have to use Gnome. A limited system might be better for new users, especially those easily scared by configuration options.

Or put another way, KDE is do it however you like, gnome is do it our way or take the highway. Some like the one, some the other.

Re:KDE?

[bensch128]

It probably explains the big shift to GNOME in the major distros, as well as the focus on GNOME in nearly all the new mobile Linux initiatives.

I have to respectfully disagree. As the person responsible for building my previous company's GUI for an embedded medical device, I had to make the decision of choosing GTK+ + pango vs. qt. I ultimately went with qt, filled out the POs for the (expensive??) licenses and started developing. And boy, did it turn out to be the Right Decision(TM). Qtopia3 and then really Qtopia4 were the perfect development tools for us. Its infrastructure saved my butt many, many times and by managing the memory by overriding new, I had a complete Qt system running on a 250Mhz arm processor with 32MB of ram. For a couple thousand USD/developer, they give really, really good support and point out bugs in your code or provide patches very quickly. You don't have to spend too long pulling out your hair in despair when there is a problem.

I think that if we had more people on the GUI development side or a gnome guru, we might have gone for gtkmm (the C++ bindings for gtk+). Since I didn't have either, going with Qt was the right choice.

Two notes:
1) No mobile device uses kde or gnome currently. Currently they are too high level to be useful. Everyone uses gtk or qt.
2) If you compare the number of mobile device makers on gtkmm and trolltech's websites, they are about even. There's always the tradeoff of paying for good support vs. trying to support yourself. I guess if you are a major distro, it's probably more economical to base your development around gnome in the expectations of developing proprietary apps. But i think that just runs counter to the whole idea of FOSS distros. btw, there's nothing in trolltech's OSS license that says you can't support your own branch of Qt. (if fact the gpl forbids it) They have a policy however of not accepting outside patches for legal reasons it is a bit unfortunate.

Cheers
Ben

waiting for a better deal from dell

[Anonymous Coward]

As I recall, from a few weeks ago, dell's cheapest desktop is $349 and is available with Vista Home only.

The cheapest dell/Ubuntu is $499.

I'd buy a machine right now if the pricing made sense.

Even if they shipped the $349 box with a blank hard drive I'd buy that over the Ubuntu @ $499

And the walmart everex 20 watt machine that was in all the news a couple weeks ago is MIA. I went to the local superstore and they not only did not have any everex desktops, they had no idea what $298 offer I was talking about. Two people told me it sounded bogus. Even the walmart website has a monitor bundled, nothing for $298. The superstore had one small aisle space with desktops, all starting around $600 and all having far more cpu and ram than i need for my low power 24/7 home server project.

A lot of these linux friendly claims are just vapor.

Re:waiting for a better deal from dell

[gujo-odori]

Another factor in the valuation is the hardware life cycle. For example, at my company you get your choice of a Mac, a Windows machine or installing the BSD or Linux distro of your choice (on pretty much a support-it-yourself basis), and you're eligible for a new machine every three years.

When I was hired in January, I chose a Mac, and they issued me a 15" MacBook Pro, 2 GB RAM/120 GB disk. I'm fairly confident this will still be a highly usable machine in three years. Lots of people have PowerBooks that are between 2 and 3 years old, and while they think a new MBP would be cool, they have no complaints with their current hardware; it's getting the job done and performing well. The people running Linux or BSD are doing OK, too.

But the ones with 3-year old notebooks running XP, they practically have their upgrade eligibility date marked in red on the calendar (some probably really do). Compared to the Mac and Linux and BSD machines of the same age, those 3 year old Windows boxes are just wheezing along. What this means for the purchaser of a Dell Ubuntu box, then, is that if they buy a decently speced-out machine now, the can reasonably expect that in three years it will still be very serviceable. Even if you pay a little more for it, you'll get that money back in the form of longer hardware upgrade cycles. This fact can't be lost on Dell, I wonder if that's a factor in any price differences?

Interestingly, a thing I hear regularly from people waiting for their hardware upgrade cycle is that they plan to get a Mac next time instead of a Windows machine. At least in engineering, Macs have already become the majority platform. I was in a meeting today and looked around the table and counted that 80% of the attendees had Macs.

Regular users still mostly opt for Windows, of course, but both here where I work and at a couple of recent conferences I went to (not Black Hat and Defcon, but security-oriented anyway), there were a lot of people with Macs or PC notebooks minus Windows. A guy a couple rows in front of me was running FreeBSD on his. Everywhere, I hear people who currently have Windows saying they are going to take a serious look at moving to Mac or Linux. Microsoft is losing, or at risk of losing, a great deal of mindshare in the community of programmers, engineers, and other technical fields. One of the things that helped make Microsoft who they are today is great mindshare in that group. If they lose it, that loss can go a long way toward breaking them. Interest in, and acceptance of, Macs and Linux machines in the corporate environment seems to be at an all-time high and going up rapidly.

I'm sure Microsoft is concerned, but I don't believe they fully appreciate the peril, fully appreciate how close the tipping point may be. The next 2 or 3 years, while they work on the successor to Vista while many of their users cling to XP or move to Mac or Linux should be very interesting.

Re:waiting for a better deal from dell

[dave420]

Why are Windows machines different to the same machines running Linux/BSD? I don't get it. Windows hasn't changed since the notebooks in question were purchased, so why are they suddenly not working, or having performance issues?

Re:waiting for a better deal from dell

[sgtrock]

Because the coders of FOSS applications have writing ever cleaner code as one of their primary motivations. A study published for the European Commission (page 49) last year showed that approximately 50% of the code in the Debian repository had been replaced at least every 5 years. Cleaner code leads inevitably to more efficient code, so over time the applications tend to become more efficient even as they add features. Therefore, the machines running a majority of FOSS code tend to become more stable over time and also tend to take longer to become limited by their hardware when compared to closed source apps.

In addition, the pool of available FOSS code is doubling every 18 to 24 months /even while/ the existing codebase is being completely rewritten every 10 years or so. I'd love to see a comparison to closed source code. I'd be willing to bet that there's no way that COTS code comes close to those kinds of numbers.

Closed source apps designs are primarily driven by a need to meet a ship date in order to satisfy marketing. Patching such code after the fact has to deal with grafting on to whatever is currently in place. Rewriting code frequently simply isn't an option.

Re:waiting for a better deal from dell

[OldeTimeGeek]

Does your company lease computers? That could be why they replace them after three years.

All systems at my company are on a 36-month lease, so we don't get rid of computers because they're too slow - most of them work just fine even with our latest software templates - we get rid of them because the lease period is over and they have to be returned.

Re:waiting for a better deal from dell

[Ambidisastrous]

Windows installations are known to decay over time. Doing a complete wipe and reinstallation of Windows usually brings the computer back into usable condition, but most users have reservations about doing that. It's easier to just get a new computer -- or install the latest Ubuntu.

Why does Windows rot?

- Package management: Even when you run a program's designated uninstaller, or go through Add/Remove Programs, almost everything will leave some trace of itself behind in the registry. The new, approved way to do configuration on Windows is the same as the *nix way, with config files in the user's home folder, but nobody can force vendors to behave. Installing a new program can sometimes overwrite an existing DLL used by other programs. Plus, as part of the Windows Experience (TM), programs tend to try to modify or at least detect each other on the system, and adapt accordingly.

Sprinkle bugs into each of these areas, and you get a system that gradually develops quirks over time, slows down while looking for items that no longer exist or have been moved, and loads services that don't need to be there. Macs have a cute, tidy package system that resolves this somewhat; *nix systems usually have very powerful and thorough package managers; and both use flat text files instead of a single, binary, monolithic registry for handling program configuration.

- Commercial software: Linus is right in saying that open source is a better engineering tactic. Software for Windows is sometimes great, but usually terrible. Not only is it written hastily due to market pressure, it's dictated by managers with impure motives (e.g. marketing, add flash at the expense of quality, add a pet feature), sometimes obfuscated by coders who either don't know any better or don't want anyone else touching their code, occasionally dependent on Windows bugs or deprecated features, and frequently designed to induce vendor lock-in and force frequent upgrades.

Microsoft has always tried to provide a flexible playground for commercial developers, and until very recently would allow completely pathological things to happen on Windows if that's what was required for existing important applications to run. All of these things are limited in open-source software.

- Too much magic: The Windows Experience (TM) is marked by discoverability combined with endless kludges. There are no man pages. Instead, if you want to find out how to change some property of the system, right-click around the thing you want to change. Poke through the context menus, bring up a tabbed dialog, click around, check some boxes, click OK a few times to get out of your layers of dialogs. Job well done.

To make this work, there are multiple separate program-defined settings affecting each property of the system. Examples: sound, web browser settings, task bar items, quick launch bar, system tray. Things appear and get modified, but it's not clear what the cause was. So opening some random app for the first time in 6 months might cause the internet access settings to be updated, change the default browser from Firefox to IE, and add an item to the quick launch bar. Norton Antivirus will then detect some of this, vomit on your screen, and begin blocking Firefox from accessing the internet.

On *nix, modularity takes precedence, and configurations are managed individually. So, if you do screw up your system, you generally have just one or two places to check to see what happened (the config file, and possibly a GUI front-end for it), and it's less likely you'll change a setting by accident.

Re:waiting for a better deal from dell

[cbhacking]

I haven't even used XP on my own machines in over two years, but... my family has 6-year-old Win2000 machines that still work fine (once you get past 2000's startup time, which was always annoying). Their XP machines are 4 years old and also work fine (these were far from top-of-the-line either, although they did upgrade the RAM from the original 512 to 768).

While I don't deny I've seen the "Windows Rot" phenomenon, it's most commonly due to people installing shit that runs at startup (often silently and near-invisibly) that, as they accumulate more such programs over time, slow the machine down. Malware obviously forms a sizable chunk of this problem, but also things like iTunes, Acrobat Reader (older versions at least, I refuse to run that crap anymore), and hardware drivers that install user-space software to do things like help you manage wireless networks or check printer ink levels. Defragmenting every month or so can help too, although it's really only necessary if moving largish files around and can be mitigated my using hard drives with a faster seek time. Programs uninstalling incorrectly and leaving shit in the registry (lookin' at YOU, Symantec) is another problem, though much less of one (in my experience) than the others (and can be cleaned manually or with specialized software). Side note: avoiding all this is a lot of what Live OneCare's "Tune Up" process is about; regularly scheduled deep virus scans, (in addition to the nightly scans) hard drive defrags, and such to try and keep Windows running well. It could be improved but was a logical feature to add to a software suite. There are probably alternative programs that do similar things, but as I said I don't run XP anymore haven't found any elsewhere.

Anyhow, back to my point: if you know a few things about computers, you can easily keep older Windows systems running well (NT-based at least; the design is solid enough but the users give it a bad name). Honestly, I sometimes think nobody should be allowed to have root access on a Internet-connected machine without passing some sort of certification. Probably neither my mother nor sister could pass such a certification, but both know what they don't know and generally follow good practices with regard to installing unneeded junk and the like. My father is quite good with computers though (for all that I can't get him to run Linux) and can help them out when they have a question. He doesn't even need to really work to keep the machines up; all it takes is just avoiding letting them degrade.

Re:waiting for a better deal from dell

[gujo-odori]

I don't think so, at least, there are no leasing company asset tags on any piece of equipment I've ever seen. We just take pretty good care of our staff. Lots of free food, free drinks, free beer (no, I'm not kidding). They're starting to issue 30" Apple Cinema Displays now, as budget allows. A couple months ago we got a batch of 30s and a smaller batch of 23s, which were given out by lottery. If you were a manager, you could only enter to win a 23. The 30s all went to staff. I didn't win one, but maybe next time.

Yes, it's very, very nice to work here :-)

Re:waiting for a better deal from dell

[OldeTimeGeek]

30" Cinema displays? On request? Aarrgghhh. I had to go through three levels of management to get the almost tolerable 20" Dell that I use on my network monitoring workstation. I would kill for a decent monitor.

If we had the same order error (substituting 17" & 19" for 23" and 30"), the larger monitors would go to the executives. And the 17" inch too, 'cause we all understand that executives really benefit from a dual-display setup. Anybody who complained would get some of the 15" CRTs that we still have laying around.

I'm still using a 10" IBM CRT that I got fifteen years ago for one of my systems 'cause it's the only one that I can find. If you squint your eyes just right, you can see the menu. If you squint them another way, you can see Mother Teresa.

Re:waiting for a better deal from dell

[gujo-odori]

That's a truly heartbreaking hardware story. Maybe this will help :)

http://www.ironport.com/company/careers.html

Re:waiting for a better deal from dell

[dave420]

But on *nix you have to rebuild your kernel because new software/hardware you use requires a newer version. Even OS X has to be reinstalled periodically because stuff stops working as it once did. You've not mentioned anything that isn't also a problem on *nix.

YAY!

[thatskinnyguy]

Maybe with backing from Dell, Ubuntu and especially SuSE, NVIDIA will finally be forced to make a video driver worth the powder to blow it to Hell.

Re:YAY!

[ianare]

NVIDIA will finally be forced to make a video driver worth the powder to blow it to Hell. I would rather any new drivers NOT blow my video card to Hell, thank you very much!

Re:Decision point

[bberens]

Linux is not a 'grass roots' operating system, and hasn't been for a long time. It's been a very capable server OS which is backed by several large corporations. It's just now making headway into the desktop market. It's sort of the reverse of what Windows did. Linux needs to shake its grass roots image if it wants to make bigger waves in the business world. Please stop referring to it as such because it only strengthens the idea that linux is a toy for hobbyists.

Why does Dell give Ubuntu/Inspiron the slow CPUs?

[schwaang]

In the US the max CPU offered on the Ubuntu-loaded Inspiron 530N is currently the E4300. If you want a faster CPU with Ubuntu, you have to go with the (much more expensive) XPS 410N instead of the Inspiron.

Whereas on Dell's FreeDOS-loaded 530N you can go up to the E6420.

Why does Dell restrict the Ubuntu-loaded Inspiron to low-end CPUs?

Well done, /.

[The Iso]

Good job, editors. With all the complaints we see about bad summaries, it's nice to see a summary that's so concise and correct.

Re:Why does Dell give Ubuntu/Inspiron the slow CPU

[TheMeuge]

Well, they discontinued the 1505N, and my guess is that a full range of the new 1X20 series Inspiron notebooks will be available shortly.

Re:Why does Dell give Ubuntu/Inspiron the slow CPU

[schwaang]

In this case I'm talking about the desktops (Inspiron 530N).
I haven't checked the CPU options on the laptops.

Now? Where?

[SwedishPenguin]

I checked both the UK and German dell websites and even if I specifically search for Ubuntu, the only thing I can find is the US Dell Ubuntu site.

Re:Now? Where?

[JohnBailey]

I checked both the UK and German dell websites and even if I specifically search for Ubuntu, the only thing I can find is the US Dell Ubuntu site. And that is all you will see until they start selling them. They only announced that they were going to be selling Linux loaded Dells this side of the pond a few days ago. And if you phone the Dell order line, they will not sell you a system with Ubuntu installed until they start officially selling them either.

Re:Now? Where?

[Ganesh999]

From TFBlog (Direct2Dell):

"I hinted at this before, but today, it's official: Dell announced that consumers in the United Kingdom, France and Germany can order an [Inspiron 6400] notebook or an Inspiron 530N desktop with Ubuntu 7.04 pre-installed."

Seems perfectly clear to me that Dell is stating that users in Europe can order preinstalled ubuntu PCs as of *now*. Yet a quick search for "Linux" on their UK site doesn't show any hits for laptops. Navigating directly to Inspiron 6400 shows only options for Vista. So technically GP is right.

People are so sensitive about this issue because there's a widespread history of "we offered linux product X many years ago but discontinued it because there was no demand" statements, based on unfair trials (e.g. Linux systems that cost more than identical Windows counterparts; no advertising of product; or supplier ordering systems that effectively prevented the user from buying the advertised Linux product).

Hopefully Dell website will be updated by end of week.

C

Re:Now? Where?

[linuxrulez]

http://www.dell.co.uk/ubuntu
http://www.dell.fr/ubuntu
http://www.dell.de/ubuntu

Re:Now? Where?

[JohnBailey]

And the exact same thing has been happening with the American Ubuntu/Dell offering. People have got all excited and upset about the sale of Linux machines. Everything from Dell not pushing the advertising to not converting every Dell model to Linux overnight. It took a few days for the web site to be updated, and another few days for the wrinkles like extended guarantees hiccup to be ironed out. Give it time.

I'm not a Dell customer or supporter, and as I don't need a laptop I am very unlikely to be. I even hate working on off the shelf PCs that friends bring me to fix. I build my own computers and have done for the past ten years or so. I am a Linux user, and I like many have been following this with great interest. Not exactly a Dell customer in the making.

But turn down the paranoia a bit. Dell are selling a new line, and new lines take a while to get working properly. The only time I see more whining on a Linux forum is when a noob comes in and complains loudly about the way Linux doesn't make things as easy to do as Windows.

Dell have been quite sensible about the whole Linux on consumer Dell PCs thing. I'm sure that the deal was already made way before they did the website survey, and that this was only a PR stunt. They have avoided things like subcontracting OS support to Canonical, and neatly sidestepped the cost of training a whole lot of people to offer Linux support. They chose an easy distro to ship, instead of going for something like Slackware or Gentoo, or going the opposite direction and putting Linspire on. They chose a free distro, instead of putting a paid versions on. They have in short done everything that they could to increase the possibility of this working. Sabotage would have been incredibly easy at any stage of the game, so I really think Dell are at least taking this seriously. If they were just doing this as a publicity stunt, then why take it further than they need to?

Dell have been selling Linux to business for years, so its not as if they are going to be anti Linux on that score. Deciding on one distro makes sense, as some distros have quirks that others don't. Its also easier from a stock control angle to reduce the options when possible.

Dell announced that they were going to be selling these computers in selected markets outside the US. If they made a very public announcement, would they be stupid enough to turn the good publicity into bad publicity by then changing their minds and not selling them? They could just keep saying soon, and never deliver.

Dell may, like many other computer companies, be very tied to Microsoft financially. But the "everyone who sells Windows hates Linux" mentality is sometimes counter productive. Dell wants to sell computers. They don't care if there is Linux, Windows or freedos on them. In the end, a computer is a unit of stock to them, and a sale is a sale. They still end up not paying the Microsoft license fee, so that offsets the crapplet loss due to not adding lots of junk to the install. And if they do still have to pay Microsoft for every computer shipped, this gives them bargaining power to get that changed. Microsoft could do without the hassle of an OEM bringing this little matter to court right now I'm sure. Especially as their monopoly status trade barriers are running out soon, and they have already had their wrists slapped over unfair contract obligations.

My personal take on this is that Dell are cautiously probing the market to see just how well these machines sell. Perfectly sensible. Its uncharted territory. Something that they don't need is a bunch of people buying Linux by mistake, and then howling at every opportunity to the assembled masses on the net about the rubbish system they got from Dell. Every Linux user I have come across on the net seems to be very pleased with their Dell/Ubuntu system, and that is the kind of result they want. This also explains them not promoting the Linux computers the way they do Microsoft systems. A big rush on Linux PCs followed by a big surge in returns would not be good business. The current Linux users will however already know about the Dell computers, and if they are gong to buy them, they will track them down like they do all the hardware to run Linux.

Re:Now? Where?

[JohnBailey]

Seems that they are now offering the Linux laptops for sale. didn't check the desktops. http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/topics/topic.asp x/emea/segments/gen/client/en/ubuntu_landing?c=uk& cs=ukdhs1&l=en&s=dhs&~ck=anavml

Re:Now? Where?

[Archtech]

How did you find those pages? I can't see any obvious way to reach them from www.dell.co.uk, which is where I start shopping.

Re:Now? Where?

[Ganesh999]

> And the exact same thing has been happening with the American Ubuntu/Dell offering. People have got
> all excited and upset about the sale of Linux machines. Everything from Dell not pushing the
> advertising to not converting every Dell model to Linux overnight. It took a few days for the web
> site to be updated, and another few days for the wrinkles like extended guarantees hiccup to be
> ironed out. Give it time.

No. "Giving it time" could be misconstrued as a lack of interest, either unwittingly or wilfully. Continued (polite) harrassment from the public will make it evident to all that there is strong public interest.

Consumer "pester power" has been shown to be possibly the most powerful tool in influencing large corporate decision-making.

> I'm not a Dell customer or supporter, and as I don't need a laptop I am very unlikely to be. I even
> hate working on off the shelf PCs that friends bring me to fix. I build my own computers and have
> done for the past ten years or so. I am a Linux user, and I like many have been following this with
> great interest. Not exactly a Dell customer in the making.

I've been an exclusively Linux home user since 1999. Haven't bought a new preassembled PC....well, ever! Have fixed & maintained many friends' boxes, and don't like the poor quality and heavy bottlenecking I've seen result from specifications designed purely around a feature list.

I'm not exactly a typical Dell customer either. But I'm not religious about it: the day I deem their desktop quality vs price equation to be good enough for my purposes I may change my mind and go buy a unit...I'm just not holding my breath in the meantime! Laptops are a different market - more difficult & costly to self-assemble, hence my interest.

At this stage I would rather spend my rectangular paper consumer tokens on a product that at least nominally supports Linux. Once there's a recognised market and more competition I'll happily jump ship to someone else if they offer better support.

> But turn down the paranoia a bit

Not paranoia, just much (too much?) prior experience.

Here in the UK corporate and government FLOSS overtures have almost always proved to be, at best, just a bargaining tool. Invariably Microsoft then does a "special deal" to secure market share: those who were previously trumpeting Linux' virtues then about-turn and regurgitate the typical Microsoft FUD - "too immature", "higher TCO", etc. The result is that the UK is the most ingrained Microsoft shop in Europe.

Not to mention the global FUD war that Microsoft has been waging recently (SCO, Novell IP clauses, etc).

> Dell have been quite sensible about the whole Linux on consumer Dell PCs thing... [SNIP]
> If they were just doing this as a publicity stunt, then why take it further than they need to?

Which is it? Are they being "quite sensible", or are they taking it "further than they need to"?

Personally, I believe it's the former. For Dell's typical market, Ubuntu (with its proprietary codecs & drivers, general prettiness, and ease of use) is absolutely and unquestionably the best choice of distro. And I think that initially offering Ubuntu on only limited, albeit reasonably-powered hardware is a good business decision.

[Disclaimer: I'm actually a Fedora user myself]

But I don't see why people expressing frustration at obstruction and/or slow progression is a bad thing, reactionary, or paranoid. It's just an indicator of strong demand, and valuable feedback to Dell and the world at large about their ordering process.

[UK website still not updated to include Linux laptop product].

If, on the other hand, I'm wrong about Dell's intent, and they're just making overtures with a view to dumping all over it later; then at least public criticism right now visibly calls their bluff.

Dell are dipping their toe in the water. If they're on the level they should find it pleasantly warm; if they're not it will hopefully scald them.

C

Re:Now? Where?

[JohnBailey]

No. "Giving it time" could be misconstrued as a lack of interest, either unwittingly or wilfully. Continued (polite) harrassment from the public will make it evident to all that there is strong public interest. Consumer "pester power" has been shown to be possibly the most powerful tool in influencing large corporate decision-making.

So far I have seen very little polite harassment, (referring to those involved in the topic in general, not any post or forum in particular)and a lot of demands to nobody in particular, or predictions of doom from both the Windows and Linux camps. By give it time, I mean wait a few days or so, and as I said in my following post, the UK site at least is updated with the Dell Ubuntu offerings now.

I've been an exclusively Linux home user since 1999. Haven't bought a new preassembled PC....well, ever! Have fixed & maintained many friends' boxes, and don't like the poor quality and heavy bottlenecking I've seen result from specifications designed purely around a feature list.

I think we agree a lot more than disagree. I had to try and figure out a problem with an old Dell machine a few months ago. It turned out to be impossible for me to do so, and the owner wasn't interested in buying several new parts to try and perhaps get it going again. I don't think I have come across a domestic off the shelf system that was built to any kind of quality. I'll keep building my own, and referring friends to a place I know that does some good work for a reasonable price.

> But turn down the paranoia a bit Not paranoia, just much (too much?) prior experience.

Sometimes people expect the worst out of habit more than logic. I've seen complaints about the way Dell is handling the issue that are mostly extreme or ill informed. A few even insisted the machines should be the price of a retail version of Windows cheaper, or were annoyed by Dell not switching their whole range to Linux worldwide overnight. By paranoia, I refer to the people who have consigned the whole operation to the status of a PR exercise from the moment that the news broke that Dell were considering the Linux lines. And as soon as one disaster was seen to be already accounted for and dodged, they got to work on the next excuse why it is going to fail.

Here in the UK corporate and government FLOSS overtures have almost always proved to be, at best, just a bargaining tool. Invariably Microsoft then does a "special deal" to secure market share: those who were previously trumpeting Linux' virtues then about-turn and regurgitate the typical Microsoft FUD - "too immature", "higher TCO", etc. The result is that the UK is the most ingrained Microsoft shop in Europe.

I know. I'm in the UK too. Although a little ray of hope is that the department that approves the educational purchases of software has come out with a more positive view, and I think a few privately funded schools have switched. Government projects tend to be a shambles anyway, look at the NHS computer system fiasco, and the various others that always seem to go to the same group of companies no matter how bad the previous systems were. I think the move will come from the small business and private sector before Government. The time projects take to get out of the planning stage is just too long. I did read that Specsavers have recently switched their POS and perhaps some of their internal systems to Linux, and someone on some forum mentioned that Maplin were using it too. There must be many less visible companies doing the same thing.

Although I can see the Microsoft sales ninjas having their strategy backfiring on them at some point.

Not to mention the global FUD war that Microsoft has been waging recently (SCO, Novell IP clauses, etc).

Its debatable how much this really works. We see it a lot more because we read the computer media much more than many. There are a lot of companies around the world who are using non MS systems, and the c

No

[ianare]

Both Ubuntu and SUSE-super-enterprise-desktop-10000 default to GNOME.

errr.

[Anonymous Coward]

All operating systems suck! Use whatever you like.

dell?

[larry bagina]

For all the haters out there, let me just say that I like linux and I like ubuntu. Being community based, they've managed to get popular without getting the illwill that red hat did. And I think this is a good thing in general, but let's be honest: Dell sucks. This would have been great news 5 years ago when Dell was the top dog, but now they're racing to the bottom. HP/Compaq, Gateway, Lenevo, etc are eating their lunch. Apple is where it's at.

I've started a letter writing campaign to Steve Jobs to encourage him to sell Macintosh computers preloaded with Linux. Apple is on the leading edge of personal computing (or at least the journalists and newsmakers seem to think so). If we could encourage them to ship an iMac with ubuntu linux (or maybe kubuntu), that would have a halo effect. Curious people would install ubuntu on their home pcs. Maybe Apple will even open source iWork (Pages/Keynote/Numbers) and we'll finally have a decent word processor and spreadsheet.

Re:dell?

[lixee]

Macs preloaded with Linux? You're forcing your luck.

Re:dell?

[Aetuneo]

Linux preloaded on a Mac? You have a whelk's chance in a supernova of getting that. The functionality of the software on a Mac is one of the things that Apple uses to sell them. They are not going to do anything that might, to any degree, impede that selling point. After all, without that, they have nothing that another manufacturer could not mimic, or duplicate.

Re:dell?

[Vexorian]

I guess you'll get laughet on return of your request, I guess it is easier to see flying pigs than to ever think of apple selling computers with Linux...

and we'll finally have a decent word processor and spreadsheet

Oh sorry, we already do.

Yawn - more Dell hot air

[startling]

I'm fed up with Dell getting all this free publicity by pretending they offer Ubuntu. Recently, when looking to buy a new laptop, I wasted too much time talking to their sales people asking about Ubuntu and Linux. I ended up buying a Toshiba. Go to Dell's UK site and do a search for Ubuntu. No products offered. But right at the top of the screen: "Dell recommends Windows Vista." Please: no more Dell-might-offer-Linux-machines-in-future stories. Dell are only doing this to crank more out of Mr Baalmer. (Yes, I do know how to spell his name. That's how I prefer to spell it.)

Re:Yawn - more Dell hot air

[delire]

Go to Dell's UK site and do a search for Ubuntu. No products offered.

So, let me get this straight: having heard of hearing of Dell's plans to sell laptops with Ubuntu in the U.K - announced 24 hours ago - you've been to their website to look for said laptop, not found it and went on to configure and buy a Toshiba with Windows on it instead. Shortly afterward you came here to angrily inform us that the offering is nothing but hot air - an attempt to get free publicity and take advantage of lower margins on software from Microsoft Holland's Dutch CEO.

You're clearly a person of great principle with very little free-time on your hands. Are you what they call a power consumer?

Re:Yawn - more Dell hot air

[startling]

So, let me get this straight: having heard of hearing of Dell's plans to sell laptops with Ubuntu in the U.K - announced 24 hours ago - you've been to their website to look for said laptop, What makes you jump to that completely wrong conclusion? Many months ago there was talk about Dell and Ubuntu which is why I was talking to them in the first place. But in all the conversations I had with their sales staff over several days I could not get a suitable laptop pre-configured with Ubuntu.

Yes, I bought a Toshiba - a couple of months ago! - but only because Dell had pissed me off by pretending to offer something that they did not supply! Yes, the Tosh had Windows Fister or whatever it's called pre-installed, but it's now running Ubuntu jolly nicely, thank you.

My only point is that Dell has been harping on about this for such a long time but without actually delivering that it has made me question their motives. And, as of today, they're still not actually offering it! Surely a company like Dell could actually get their offerings in place and then let us know? Hmm?

an attempt to get free publicity and take advantage of lower margins on software from Microsoft Holland's Dutch CEO.

LOL!

Re:Yawn - more Dell hot air

[cortana]

Thanks for continuing to prop up MICROS~1 and helping to find their pro-software-patents and anti-freedom campaigns!

Re:Yawn - more Dell hot air

[startling]

WTF!? Let's be absolutely clear about this: I HATE, loathe and despise Microsoft and their tactics. Clear enough? I have worked hard to help prevent software patents in Europe, including personally getting on the phone and bending the ears of Members of the European Parliament and their staff. I will fight very hard to ensure that European software patents do not happen.

Did you mean to reply to another post? WHAT have I said that is pro-Microsoft? I USE Ubuntu, for crying out loud! All I've said is that Dell has been TALKING about Ubuntu for a long time without actually delivering anything. That's a fact! If Dell had been SUPPORTING Ubuntu instead of just talking about it I would have bought a Dell. (Sheesh! Is a warped translator from the planet Zarg cloaking my posts?)

Re:Yawn - more Dell hot air

[cortana]

I believe what you say, and I appreciate your efforts that helped bring the CIID directive crashing to a halt over two years ago! :)

However you said that the Toshiba laptop that you purchased came with Windows (unless I misunderstood your post). That means that some of your money went back to Microsoft. :(

BTW, the machines are now available if you go to http://dell.co.uk/ubuntu. They don't seem to be available from anywhere on Dell's main site, but that was to be expected and follows the precedent set by their US site (dell.com).

The links on that page didn't work a few hours ago, but they are fine now. I assume that it takes a few hour for any kind of update to be applied to all of Dell's horribly complicated and confusing site. Of course, it seems to be too much to hope for Dell to update the web site before announcing that the Ubuntu systems are available... it's too late now since this whole story is full of comments saying that the links are broken. :)

Re:Yawn - more Dell hot air

[startling]

you said that the Toshiba laptop that you purchased came with Windows (unless I misunderstood your post)

Yes, I'm afraid it did have Windows installed (although it is now well and truly a Ubuntu machine). Believe me, I hate the fact that some of the price went to Microsoft. But after spending effing HOURS trying to get Dell to sell me a Linux machine and failing, I simply ran out of time and had to get a machine sorted out for work.

I had contacted Lenovo and I'm ashamed to admit that I didn't buy one because they're so damned ugly at the moment... (Did I just type that out loud?) The Lenovo sales person said that nicer-looking machines were on the way and if that's true I'll be getting one of those next, probably.

If Dell are genuinely getting behind Ubuntu, then great. That just hasn't been my experience recently.

Re:Yawn - more Dell hot air

[Archtech]

What on earth are you complaining about?

Parent (and I, separately), carefully read the base article, and noted that it said specifically that:

"Dell announced that consumers in the United Kingdom, France and Germany can order an Inspiron 6400 notebook or an Inspiron 530N desktop with Ubuntu 7.04 pre-installed..."

Note that it says "customers... *can* order". Not "will soon be able to order". Not "will be able to order as soon as we get our Web site updated". And certainly not "will be able to order tomorrow, if they can guess that the URL is www.dell.co.uk/ubuntu".

For European customers, the fact that the URL is analogous to that on Dell's US Web site of of no possible interest or help. Because most European customers don't use Dell's US Web site.

Good job, Dell

[TheModelEskimo]

I "voted with my cash" as I've seen others mention, and ordered a Dell Ubuntu laptop. Best computing decision I've ever made, easily. If you are even entertaining the slightest thoughts about getting one, do it.

The machine made it through its first major presentation to clients today (not presenting the laptop, but presenting materials to the client) without a hitch. I've installed Kubuntu, Ubuntu Studio, Enlightenment, and Fluxbox on it so far. I was really, *really* tempted to run Enlightenment during the presentation today, just because of the slick animations and minimal GUI.

I'm not the most talented Ubuntu apologist, but I think that most of us who should be using it, know who we are.

BTW, my non-techie wife uses this machine every day without problems.

Re:Fuck you.

[SleepyHappyDoc]

Interesting. Now, get yourself a time machine and go read that paragraph to Chaucer, and see how much he understands. He spoke English, right...should be exactly the same.

Re:Decision point

[Khyber]

Linux isn't an operating system, it's a kernel. Ubuntu, Red Hat, Fedora, SUSE, those are operating systems powered by the Linux kernel.

*trying to dispel the Linux is an OS confusion*

And not Ireland?

[cianduffy]

Which is strange, as the Dell PCs for those markets are -made here-...

Re:And not Ireland?

[JohnBailey]

There shouldn't be a problem ordering from the UK site, or depending on the guarantee options, the German site might be cheaper. And you don't even have to convert from Euros to sterling. Although import duty and VAT payments might reduce any savings.

Re:And not Ireland?

[bigtomrodney]

No they won't let you order somthing from the UK site unless you have a UK address. The same offices deal with the UK as Ireland (in fact they are in Ireland) and UK Sales can't ship to addresses outside the UK.

Re:And not Ireland?

[VJ42]

Then they are breaking Europian law (specifically IIRC The treaty of Rome); the good thing about the EU is it requires free movement of goods due to the single market.

Not yet your can't

[Spad]

Hidden in the press release and not obvious on the main UK site is a text link to www.dell.co.uk/ubuntu

Following this link takes you to the "Dell with Ubuntu" homepage, but clicking on "Choose Desktop" or "Choose Notebook" results in a 404.

Excellent work there Dell.

Re:Not yet your can't

[lobStar]

The corresponding German and French sites exist too, with the same 404 errors.

Re:Not yet your can't

[Britz]

As well as www.dell.co.uk/ubuntu www.dell.de/ubuntu also presents an Ubuntu page in German with the same results if you click on the links.

The only option for the Inspiron 6400 in Germany remains Windows Vista for now (going through the normal www.dell.de pages). They don't even have XP any more. I wouldn't touch Vista with a ten foot pole before the first service pack comes out.

Are there notebooks with Ubuntu that have a modem built in? A modem can be your only option on the road sometimes. And I even got my brothers Thinkpad A20 modem to work with Debian.

Re:Not yet your can't

[bfields]

Are there notebooks with Ubuntu that have a modem built in?

The Dell 1420n that I'm posting from has a modem that is "supported" by the preinstalled Ubuntu OS. With "supported" in quotes only because the supported depends on a proprietary bits. (And I haven't heard anything to indicate that's likely to change soon.) But it should work. I haven't tried to use it, though.

Sales figures?

[gujo-odori]

Has anyone seen any sales figures on Ubuntu Dells? It would be very interesting to know, on a model for which Ubuntu, XP, and Vista are all available, how the sales numbers are coming out.

I second that

[Burz]

The notion (or assumption) of "the Linux OS" is a very unfortunate and confusing delusion in the world of software. It causes otherwise intelligent techies to start talking about a mythical FOSS operating system "Linux" as if users who are exposed to its various userland environments are having a shared experience. Yet the methods for setting up printers, network shares and applications can be wildly divergent between distros (or... the methods are mostly the same, just ignore the page and-a-half extra shell instructions for distro-X in order to get a supporting subsystem up and running).

Maybe you could say that each distro family like Debian/Ubuntu/Mepis, RedHat/CentOS/Fedora, Mandriva/PCLOS kind of represent an OS. Or perhaps you could say that LSB defines what could be considered an OS (almost).

On the whole, "Linux OS" is a misleading and self-defeating term when used outside of systems-programming environs. It raises expectations about user interface and interoperability standards that just don't exist between the distros.

Europe ?

[l3v1]

availability of Ubuntu in Europe [...] consumers in the United Kingdom, France and Germany

Well, geography was not my favourite subject, still, I got fed up with similar moves. Reminds me of iTunes, like how it's available in Europe... right. People complain about globalization, hell, I'd really prefer it, if it would mean services would be global - or at least be available in Europe if they say it's available in Europe. Made me angry about on the same level when I happened to find some good stuff in an online store the other day, only to find out they only accept cards for payment if they were issued in the U.S. Well, keep your stuff and don't let me tell you where to put it to rest.
 

Re:Europe ?

[TigerWolf2]

What about Australia? I have been waiting for Ubuntu to be avaliable for a long time. The linux community here is quite big. Maybe soon.

Hobbyist Image

[HerbieStone]

I kindly disagree.

While Linux (and the other opensource projects surrounding it) isn't just 'grass roots' as it once used to be the community and its individual (sometimes hobbyist) members are very important. It's good that the key developers around Linux are employed at companies where they can program for Linux and be paid for it. But where would Linux be without those many people writing bug-reports, howtos, translations and the like? Gentoo and Ubuntu wouldn't be half as popular if their many wiki entries wouldn't exist.

So while it isn't 'grass-roots' anymore its more like a community in which individuals and companies play their role.

And whats so bad with the hobbyists image? I myself am sick and tired of marketing types promising the moon and the sun and delivering nothing but hot air.

Re:Why does Dell give Ubuntu/Inspiron the slow CPU

[jesterpilot]

Because they don't need to be 'Vista-ready'.

Re:Decision point

[obsolete1349]

That's GNU/Linux to you!!!

Re:Your grammar sucks.

[tap]

You cannot use the word "hopefully" that way. Hopefully can only be used as an adverb. A correct usage could be "she waits hopefully." Frankly, Anonymous Coward, I don't give a damn.

In case that went over your head, look up disjunct adverbs.

Re:Fuck you.

[cortana]

Ita vero, amice!

Where are the laptops on their website?

[sasserstyl]

I can't for the life of me find these laptops on the Dell website.

Can anyone else supply links to them (Inspiron 530N and Inspiron 6400)?

Re:Where are the laptops on their website?

[cortana]

URL:http://dell.co.uk/ubuntu

The links from there are currently broken, however.

Re:Where are the laptops on their website?

[sasserstyl]

Ok thanks for that.

For completeness, the US link is here.

Microsoft present tense...

[Archtech]

"Dell announced that consumers in the United Kingdom, France and Germany can order an Inspiron 6400 notebook or an Inspiron 530N desktop with Ubuntu 7.04 pre-installed..."

Not as of today, they can't. I live in the UK, and I just went to dell.co.uk and started to customize an order for an Inspiron 6400. Guess what? The operating system options are Windows, Windows, or some other flavour of Windows. "Any OS you like, just as long as it's Windows".

Looks like the Dell marketroid who issued the statement was using the Microsoft present tense. As in "jam yesterday, jam tomorrow, but never jam today". (Actually not yesterday, and probably not tomorrow either).

Wake me up when Dell has actually done something.

Re:Microsoft present tense...

[startling]

Ah. Thank you for your post.

I'm getting beaten up in this thread because I stated the same thing as you (although no doubt rather too clumsily).

Dell has made me very sceptical of their motives because of the way they've handled this. Like you, I tried to buy a Dell with Linux, but could not do so. As you so rightly put it: wake me up when Dell has actually done something.

Re:Microsoft present tense...

[Archtech]

"I'm getting beaten up in this thread because I stated the same thing as you"

So I see, and I can't imagine why. We were told "you can buy it now"; we tried to find the offer; we couldn't. So we posted to warn others, and you get attacked for your post. It doesn't make much sense, but after all this is Slashdot.

You'll note my post is still sitting at 2, where it started. I would have thought it was informative, in that it pointed out that the base article was incorrect (in at least one respect).

Re:Decision point

[Hathor's Dad]

Linux is not a 'grass roots' operating system, and hasn't been for a long time. It's been a very capable server OS which is backed by several large corporations. It's just now making headway into the desktop market. It's sort of the reverse of what Windows did. Linux needs to shake its grass roots image if it wants to make bigger waves in the business world. Please stop referring to it as such because it only strengthens the idea that linux is a toy for hobbyists.

This is the word of professional PR people. AS IN THE POST. This is one of them..aka THEM. The PR bots for M$. Notice the dull 'we're on the same side' + yesterday's news slant. Note the ending phrase.

Ubuntu preloaded PC in France

[dankh]

Dell are acting like amateurs. At Dell France website there is no way to find any machine with Ubuntu, I tried the search, "/ubuntu", manually checked almost all their offer, there is no Ubuntu on the page. At best the client is redirected to Dell USA with the USA offerings of PCs with Ubuntu.

I have a friend of mine who runs his business with only email and phone, he have 4 employees that do the same thing. All the PCs at his office are used for email, browsing the web and some document editing sometimes (spreadsheet and doc). He is complaining about spyware viruses and all that stuff. Many times I talked to him to switch to Linux, not because is free (he gets all the OS and Word licenses for free shipped with the PCs by Dell) but because of the stable and virus free system it is. Just to write emails and browse the web, he already uses the Mozilla soft. But he is scared of that Linux thing, not sold and supported on the desktop by any major vendor.

For guys like this , I think this is a great news ! This September I'll buy for him new machine, and I know with which OS it will be sold, loaded, supported BY DEFAULT !

Re:Ubuntu preloaded PC in France

[WillAffleckUW]

can't find Ubuntu on the Dell site? Probably because it would be listed under Linux.

From the Dell website(!)

[wandm]

From Dell Ubuntu Page:

"The main thing to note is that when you choose open source you don't get a Windows® operating system."

Aaahh, so that's what this Ubuntu thing is all about..

Re:From the Dell website(!)

[Coopjust]

Well...yeah. The buyer doesn't have to pay for the cost of a Windows License, which to many enthusiasts or people that don't plan to keep Windows on the computers, means avoiding a "Windows Tax" that they have had to pay on laptops for years. Additionally, even if you don't use Ubuntu, you've bought Linux compatible HW.

Of course, that warning is also an ass covering; somebody who bought a Linux laptop might think (somehow) it includes both Linux AND Windows, and that is a pretty clear clarifying statement.

Re:Decision point

[Ginger Unicorn]

Ubuntu, Red Hat, Fedora and SUSE are distributions not operating systems.

Linux is an operating system kernel. The kernel combined with some low level utilities, the majority of which if not all are GNU originated, comprises the operating system. So Linux is part of the operating system.

Anything else on top is not part of the operating system. Gnome / KDE / Xfce are desktop environments. Because people are used to Windows, they often mistakenly think GUI = OS.

Ubuntu et al. are even more than an OS/DE combo because they include a massive library of applications too. They are distributions.

So if you want to be precise about terminology the OS is GNU/Linux. Just "Linux" is easier to say, and since the Linux kernel is generally only used in conjunction with the GNU OS components just saying Linux is for the most part unambiguous.

Re:Decision point

[Kjella]

Linux isn't an operating system, it's a kernel. Ubuntu, Red Hat, Fedora, SUSE, those are operating systems powered by the Linux kernel

Why replace one confusion with another confusion? At most, kernel + utils + WM + DE is the operating system, certainly not full distributions with tons and tons of userspace applications. Clearly WM and DE is optional since you can have headless servers managed by ssh, which means only kernel+utils are essential. GNU/Linux is enough to be called an operating system, and no matter what distribution you're running it's really a GNU/Linux OS, except very few besides RMS use the "GNU" part.

"I run Linux" is thus in my opinion a perfectly valid answer to "What OS do you run?", just like "I run XP" is a valid answer even though it doesn't contain the full name (Microsoft Windows XP) or explicitly decribe the variation like home/pro, 32/64-bit etc. Along the same vein, I think it's valid to say that Ubuntu, Red Hat, Fedora and SUSE are all (GNU/)Linux operating systems. YMMV.

Bad job, Dell.

[I am Jack's username]

I'd've voted with my cash also once the OptiPlex 740 Energy Smart MT was made available with Ubuntu (or just, crazy idea: an OS free PC), except for the fact that Dell is now part of the Novell/Microsoft deal according to Techworld. No cash for Dell.

Don't fear the penguins...

[Synchis]

I've seen the reports as of late, and I can't help but wonder if this is the very beginning of the end of M$'s reign. This is how it starts, how history repeats. One by one the OEM's open up, let Linux in, and soon every OEM offers it. People buy it, thinking it might be a breath of fresh air from Microsoft. "I've heard about this Linux thing, I wonder what its like?..." And word of mouth is a powerful thing. The strongest, greatest advertising campaign can be brought down by a few simple words... "That product sucks!"

Coming from the right mouth, those words destroy entire companies. So Linux creeps in, takes over households one by one... how long before we start seeing reports like we see about Firefox? "Firefox steps up as leading competitor to IE", "Firefox market share grows!", "Firefox pounding away at IE Market share".

There's no doubt now that Microsoft is feeling the burn. Every move they make now suggests desperation in their effort to control open source. To keep it from being free, open.

Time after time throughout history, humans have proven that when we want freedom, we will have freedom. Free and Open Source software is freedom, and people want it. I don't remember who said it, but the line still rings true in my mind... "Somehow, I can *just* start to smell the first whiffs of decay from the old software giant."

Proprietary software is dead. It just doesn't know it yet.

Re:Fuck you.

[HeroreV]

A language is like an RFC. It doesn't change. We got English as it is today from change. Whatever version of English you think is correct would not make sense 200 years ago. And even RFCs are often replaced. And yes I am starting sentences with "and", how do you like that? How about using commas in place of semicolons?

Every natural language was produced through change. You can't stop it from changing.

You can buy UK Inspiron 1720,1520+Ubuntu by phone

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/products/feature s.aspx/inspn_1720?c=uk&cs=ukdhs1&l=en&s=dhs

On 08/Aug/2007:

16:46:09 System System Initial Question/Comment: When will the Inspiron 1720 be loaded with Ubuntu Linux in UK??
16:51:10 System System You are now being connected to an agent. Thank you for using Dell Chat
16:51:10 System System Connected with Sherrel_Long
16:51:15 Agent Sherrel_Long Thank you for contacting Dell Sales Chat. This is Sherrell, your Sales Advisor. Please give me a moment while I review your query.
16:52:26 Customer Me ok
16:53:10 Agent Sherrel_Long The software is available if you purchase through phone.
16:55:34 Customer Me i'm buying in uk, 1720 with ubuntu is available in uk as well?
16:56:40 Agent Sherrel_Long Yes, you can call the sales line for this.

6400 Configurations/Prices

[Anonymous Coward]

INSPIRON 6400N - £616.87
BASE Intel® Pentium® Dual-Core T2130 Processor (1.86GHz,533MHz,1MB L2 cache) N-Series
OPERATING SYSTEM Ubuntu Edition version 7.04
HARDWARE SUPPORT 1 Year Base Warranty - Collect & Return edit
LCD 15.4" Wide Screen WXGA (1280 x 800) Display
MEMORY 2048MB 667MHz Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM [2x1024]
HARD DRIVE 80GB (5400rpm) SATA Hard Drive
GRAPHICS CARD N-Series - Intel® Media Accelerator 950 Graphics Up to 256MB shared graphics memory
OPTICAL DRIVE Fixed Internal 8X DVD+/-RW Drive for N-Series
PRIMARY BATTERY 6 cell Lithium-Ion Battery (53 Whr)
WIRELESS CONNECTIVITY Intel® Pro Wireless 3945 802.11a/b/g Mini-PCI Card (for Dual Core Processor)

INSPIRON 6400 - £648.75
BASE Intel® Pentium® Dual-Core T2130 Processor (1.86GHz,533MHz,1MB L2 cache)
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows Vista(TM) Home Premium - English
HARDWARE SUPPORT 1 Year Base Warranty - Collect & Return
LCD 15.4" Wide Screen WXGA (1280 x 800) Display
MEMORY 2048MB 667MHz Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM [2x1024]
HARD DRIVE 120GB (5400rpm) SATA Hard Drive
GRAPHICS CARD Intel® Media Accelerator 950 Graphics Up to 256MB shared graphics memory
OPTICAL DRIVE Fixed Internal 8X DVD+/-RW Drive including software
PRIMARY BATTERY 6 cell Lithium-Ion Battery (53 Whr)
WIRELESS CONNECTIVITY Intel® Pro Wireless 3945 802.11a/b/g Mini-PCI Card (for Dual Core Processor)

I've tried to set them up as close as possible. The Vista version can be made £23.50 cheaper by choosing the (default) base wireless card, and has a larger hard drive, and has free shipping which brings the price down and isn't available on the Ubuntu machine.

Have to say I'm disappointed with the offerings, especially as the 6400 is quite an old model already, and there's little scope for building a powerful (by 2007 standards!) machine.

Re:Why does Dell give Ubuntu/Inspiron the slow CPU

[gnulinuxWA]

I just bought a Dell / Ubuntu laptop. Inspiron 1420, Intel Core 2 Duo T7300, 2.0GHz, 800Mhz, 4M L2 Cache. I have never had a dell and it has not arrived yet so I can't say anything much about it. With tax I'm in WA, it was slightly over a grand. I hope it is better than the Toshiba it is going to replace.
1 Intel® Core(TM) 2 Duo T7300 (2.0GHz/800Mhz FSB/4MB cache)
1 Jet Black
1 2GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 at 667MHz
1 Anti-glare, widescreen 14.1 inch display (1280x800)
1 Intel Graphics Media Accelerator X3100
1 Size: 160GB SATA Hard Drive (5400RPM)
1 Ubuntu version 7.04
1 Integrated 10/100 Network Card and Modem
1 8X CD/DVD Burner (DVD+/-RW) with double-layer DVD+R write capability
1 Integrated High Definition Audio
1 Intel® 3945 802.11a/g Mini-card
1 No Camera
1 56Whr Lithium Ion Battery (6 cell)
1 1Yr Ltd Warranty and Mail-In Service
1 Free Recycling Kit
1 Intel Centrino Core Duo Processor
FREE 2GB upgrade: Value of $150!
FREE 160GB upgrade: Value of $125!