Sony to Add TV Tuner, DVR to PS3

pjhenley writes "Sony has announced that they will add digital TV and DVR capabilities to the PS3 in Europe. TV can also be watched on a PSP using 'remote play' over WiFi or via downloaded recordings. 'The new box will feature two 1080p tuners, which utilize the European Digital Video Broadcasting system (DVB-T) -- which should dash any US hopes for the time being. The system will allow you to store recorded broadcasts on your PS3 drive, and also transcode and transfer the saved files to your PSP.'"

Comments

Before anyone starts to complain

[MemoryDragon]

We europeans pay around 700-900 USD for the PS3

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry that you pay so much for it.

Honestly, can you imagine the DRM that'll be on that thing, given the manufacturer?

They should offer it at a reduced rate compared to the base model, just because of the hassle.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[Rosyna]

We europeans pay around 700-900 USD for the PS3 Before you start complaining about the US price vs the European prices, always remember to remove the VAT from the European prices. Why can't Europeans bother to remember such a simple thing? List prices in the US do not include tax.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[Anonymous Coward]

i dont know about the US, but in europe the VAT isnt 50% (comparing the $599 and up to $900 prices). the $700 would be closer, since VAT here (holland) is 19%, which would be close to the 17% the $700 price represents

but as for US VATs, what are normal VAT rates? wikipedia suggest between 0-9.75%, typically 8.5%

which still ends up being less then half the VAT of what we pay here, so we still get screwed

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually we don't. That's why I bought a Wii :p

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[Midnight Thunder]

We europeans pay around 700-900 USD for the PS3

Before you start complaining about the US price vs the European prices, always remember to remove the VAT from the European prices. Why can't Europeans bother to remember such a simple thing? List prices in the US do not include tax.

Fair enough, but taking the highest state sales tax and the price of PS3 we top out at $535 USD max. This is still much cheaper than what you get in Europe.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[Rosyna]

but as for US VATs, what are normal VAT rates? wikipedia suggest between 0-9.75%, typically 8.5% We do not have VAT in the US. We have a sales tax, which is different. Merchants selling to other merchants items (or components like hard drives for inclusion in a computer box the second merchant sells) for resale are not subjected to sales tax. Sales tax isn't applied until it gets to the consumer. VAT is applied at each exchange.

which still ends up being less then half the VAT of what we pay here, so we still get screwed Don't blame Sony or anyone else on that, blame it on the policies of the silly countries you live in. This is why the VAT needs to be removed before you do any such compare. It removes some of the silliness of the countries. (But doesn't remove duty fees, shipping fees, custom fees, or other fees a company might have to pay to get the product into the country first...)

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[LordNimon]

Probably because it's very easy in the U.S. to buy a PS3 without paying sales tax - just order from a retailer outside your state. You might even get free shipping. Oh sure, you're suppose to pay the sales tax yourself, but no one does that.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[iapetus]

Sales tax isn't applied until it gets to the consumer. VAT is applied at each exchange.

But can be claimed back by VAT registered companies, so it all works out the same in the end.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[Calinous]

VAT is a value ADDED tax - it is applied at each step, but only on the Added Value. If I buy hard drives for $100 a piece (including VAT), and sell them for $150 a piece, I pay VAT to the one from where I bought them (assume 19% VAT, I pay about $100 * 0.19/1.19 = $16), and the one who bought them from me pays $150 * 0.19/1.19 as VAT ($24). Now, the VAT I get ($24) is returned to the original seller ($16 of the $24), and the rest ($8) is the Value Added Tax I pay in the end to the state.

      Now, some times ago, before the VAT was applied, there was a Tax on Goods Distribution which was applied on every exchange - it was in the 3% range, but it added quickly from original manufacturer to the consumer.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[Mr_Silver]

Before you start complaining about the US price vs the European prices, always remember to remove the VAT from the European prices. Why can't Europeans bother to remember such a simple thing? List prices in the US do not include tax.

Fair point but Amazon is offering the PS3 60GB version for $499 in the USA and £399 in the UK.

Take 17.5% off £399 and you get roughly £340 which, according to xe.com, is $683.

You're looking at $680 vs $499 for exactly the same product - even without the VAT, we have every right to still complain.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[fanningj]

Before you start complaining about the US price vs the European prices, always remember to remove the VAT from the European prices. Why can't Europeans bother to remember such a simple thing? List prices in the US do not include tax. Yeah that's right, PS3 in Ireland is 620 euro, remove 21% tax, down to 512 euro, convert to USD, $700, Amazon sells it for $499. We do remember to remove the VAT, so why the hell are the prices so different then.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[Skapare]

You should be paying Euros for the PS3, not USD.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[gravis777]

There is no VAT in the US, its Sales tax, and the reason it varies from area to area, from 0-9.75% is because its not a federal tax, but is set by the state, and in some cases the county or city will add to it. For example, large Native American areas will have 0% sales tax on items. In the area of Texas I live in, the sales tax is 8.25% (varies when I go from one city to the next, typically between 8-8.75%).

While at first, that may sound lower, the difference is that VAT is added into the sales price, Sales Tax is not. Therefore, while the unit is $699 in the store, you then add on top of that the 8.25% sales tax. This, in my area, brought the total of the PS3 to $756.67 Of course, the advertised price is $699. Very few places in the US add tax to their advertised prices, i think the exception is when advertising gasoline prices, and a few mom and pop stores.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[gravis777]

My bad, the PS3 was $599, I spent an extra $100 to get a three year extended warrenty, bringing the price, before tax, to $699

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[flibuste]

Before you start complaining about the US price vs the European prices, always remember to remove the VAT from the European prices. Why can't Europeans bother to remember such a simple thing? List prices in the US do not include tax.

Well, USA is so great, everyone should do the same and think like us!
Including deceiving people on prices by never including taxes. Actually, you know what? VAT is on every european price as to make sure everyone is aware of the real price of things. But companies in USA are so powerful and money is so much in the heart of the country that doing such a simple would be unthinkable.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[flibuste]

I'm not sure I get the difference. Your definition of US sales taxes match the VAT one exactly. VAT is not included in any exchange between merchants, and, if it is, it is refunded at the end of the fiscal year. So the balance is 0 for the merchants and no one has paid taxes while echanging goods. At the end of the day, VAT is charged to the consumer only.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[Dahamma]

Interesting - that makes the XBOX 360 $200 cheaper than the PS3 if you compare them with equivalent warranties...

Then again, I have not heard many reports of PS3 accessories smoking when you plug them in.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[brendan0powers]

That and the fact that sales tax varies wildly from one place to the next. For example where i live in New Hampshire, there is no sales tax. People know the tax in their aria and buy accordingly.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[hansg]

And that's just weird to me as a European (if there is such a thing, I'm Swedish, never really think of myself as European).

Including the VAT in the list price makes more sense to me, at least for consumer goods.
Then I know what I have to pay. /Hans

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[Anonymous Coward]

The difference is that VAT is included in listed prices whereas taxes in the US are not. They are both taxes and conceptually the same. The difference is that paying VAT means you pay exactly what's listed on the price label. In the US, the sales tax is added at the register.

So if you go buy a $499 PS3 in the US, you'll pay roughly $540 at the register (including ~8% tax). In VAT countries, that price is already figured into the quoted price. So if you buy a £399 PS3 in Britain, you'll pay £399 at the register.

Therefore, to compare apples to apples, you have to remove VAT from the price and compare to the listed US price. Although you'd also want to remove any import tariffs Sony pays in each country too.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[gravis777]

Fair point, but I think you are forgetting something - you are comparing the prices based on if you are an American trying to buy a product in the UK, in which case the exchange rate would be against you. You are a UK citizen making a UK salary paying UK prices. I am willing to bet that when you figure in your income in GBP versus the same person with the same job in the US making USD, and then what you are paying for the PS3, it comes out to be about the same. You are not being screwed, the reason the exchange is like that is that the British pound is stronger than the US Dollar.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[Sj0]

To be fair, I have not heard many reports of people owning a PS3.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[meringuoid]

Fair point, but I think you are forgetting something - you are comparing the prices based on if you are an American trying to buy a product in the UK, in which case the exchange rate would be against you.

The exchange rate that ought to be of interest here is that against the yen, Sony being a Japanese firm. If the dollar is unusually strong against the yen at a time while the pound is weak, then we should expect Americans to get a good deal and Britons to get a poor one. But the contrary is true: at present the dollar is weak and the pound is very strong. If anything, the PS3 should be substantially cheaper in Britain.

The truth is that Sony will charge whatever the market will pay, and the market in Britain is well-known for its tolerance for blatant rip-offs.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[KDR_11k]

Actually it's not the same product, the PAL version comes with two games and an extra controller which were added instead of a price drop.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[Drawkcab]

That plan would make it virtually impossible to inform consumers of prices, genius, since sales taxes may vary from town to town. Some places in the US levy 0% sales tax.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[MorpheousMarty]

It is not the same product, the Euro version has less backwards compatibility. That is why the 60 gig US is no longer produced (and on sale for 499). They want to erase the memory of the better backwards compatibility. All well and good anyways, you can get an actual PS2 for 130$.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[BillyBlaze]

It's also worth mentioning that sales tax is applied by the state, and if you order stuff from out of state, you typically don't have to pay tax at all. (Though in some states you're supposed to report that stuff on your income tax return.)

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[InvalidError]

Also keep in mind that the EU PS3 comes without the PS1/PS2 emulation assist hardware found in NA and Japanese models.

It is kind of ironic/funny/moronic that the EU version is so much more expensive even though it costs at least $30 less to produce.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[Planesdragon]

Enjoy that free health care though, hope you don't die of old ages while waiting for a slot. So accurate... right up to that.

There are comparable delays for elective surgery (and emergency surgery) between a overtly socialist medical care system, like in Canada or Europe, and a exploitist system like we have in the United States.

(It's not "Capitalist" until you can be a fair consumer -- and you can't.)

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[Anonymous Coward]

That's how sales tax works here in the states, too: Your business can buy wholesale, or it can subtract the sales tax on business purchases from the amount of sales tax your business pays. Luckily, I've never been in a situation where I took in less in sales tax than I spent, so I have no idea if they give refunds.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[Zeussy]

That is why it is called Rip-Off Britain

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[Dahamma]

I'd mod you up for that one if I hadn't already posted in this thread ;)

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[MemoryDragon]

Actually I am not sure about Britain, but here in central Europe you get emergency surgery basically instantly as soon as you hit the hospital,they make no difference, the main difference between private insurance and a public one here is that you either end up with 5 other people in a room or alone or one guy/woman.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[LKM]

In my country, the PS3 costs 747 US$. VAT is 7,6%. 600 US$ + 7.6% = 645 US$.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[LKM]

Yeah. I have no idea about how it works in the UK either, but whenever I've been in contact with (central European) public health care, quality and timeliness has been perfect. I find it funny that Americans often take health care as an example of the superiority of their system. It's not.

Re:Before anyone starts to complain

[TheoMurpse]

But if one shop includes the VAT in the listing, and you see two stores selling the same product, but one for a hundred dollars more, which store will you go to? Including the VAT in your advertisements would be economic suicide.

What's this about!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

We're the US, the greatest country on Earth!

Why aren't we getting it first?

Re:What's this about!!!

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

I believe the number of Sony Fanboys in the US is higher than that in any other country. Our dumb consumers buy that crap even when it doesn't work.

But wouldn't it be funny if Sony's announcement of a better PS3 on the way gets people to stop buying them?

On a semi-related note, I've talked with 3 middle-aged people who are trying to find Wiis for themselves and can't, while I see Best Buy has 20 PS3s in stock. Good work, Sony.

Re:What's this about!!!

[LWATCDR]

Simple. Because of CableCard not really being a standard.
Sony doesn't want to have another sales disappointment in the US. People will just get their DVR from there CATV if they want one that will just work however feature limited it may be. For those that want more features and are willing to do the work to get it working then TiVO will be the product of choice.
Too bad really. This combined with a PSP is pretty cool. You could watch TV anywhere in your home even out in your garden/backyard and tanscode it for your PSP.

I keep thinking that Microsoft is working with the cable companies to bring the same functionality to the 360/Zune.

Re:What's this about!!!

[thermal_7]

I believe Sony are testing the waters in the UK precisely because they don't care so much about that region. This could move could have serious backlash.

Re:What's this about!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Primarily because of the clusterfuck that is America's widespread digital broadcasting/digital cable standards. Primarily, the lack thereof.

Re:What's this about!!!

[dedtr9]

The reason for that is because Sony isn't targeting middle aged people, while thats mostly who Nintendo is going for. It does make me wonder why it is getting released outside of the US, because there are so many people here with money to spend, not to mention stupid people with money to spend.

Re:What's this about!!!

[g051051]

Europe is Sony's beta test facility.

Re:What's this about!!!

[Frenchy_2001]

We're the US, the greatest country on Earth!
Why aren't we getting it first?

I know you said that i jest, but there is a reason: Europe is much further along in its conversion to digital TV (including HDTV) and the tuner they use in a DVB-T, the european norm.
US use the ATSC norm for over the air digital broadcast and penetration is not nearly as good.

Although, on this one, your are getting f***ed quite deeply ;)

Re:What's this about!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

WoW!

Score 5 for the Phantom Trollster!

How do you like THEM apples?

Re:What's this about!!!

[Dretep]

Hmm... Maybe they suddenly recalled Hiroshima and decided to say screw the USA, make them beg and grovel.

I gotta say

[Pojut]

I love the PS3 for all of it's capabilities (especially since I also have a PSP) I think it's a very well built, very well designed machine that has a lot of potential. It's non-gaming feature list is extensive and USEFUL.

So why do I still very much prefer my 360 over my PS3?

Games. The fucking games.

Come on Sony. We all know that it's a powerful beast of a machine, we know it can do a lot of cool shit...but how about investing in some more quality GAMES? My 360 gets FAR more playtime than my PS3...why?

BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING TO PLAY, SONY.

Re:I gotta say

[GeckoX]

Yes, but we're just coming into the first real release season for the PS3. Over the next year that will change. People conveniently forget just how long the 360 has already been out for, and that many xBox games were released on the 360 instead of the xbox. Sony has NEVER had a lot of games out in the first year for a new console. Those that know this know that waiting another 6 months to a year will result in likely a cheaper console purchase, and more game options...and in the meantime, thoroughly enjoying the last and best games to be released on the PS2. (End of console lifecycle games are traditionally the best on sony consoles)

Now, if there aren't lots of quality games to choose from by this time next year, there will be problems without a doubt.

Re:I gotta say

[Pojut]

See, that's just the thing though....look at what is coming to 360 or 360/PC in the next year (I'm including BioShock in that which, by the way, is one of the best games ever made)

Now look at what is coming to the PS3 in the next year.

I gotta say, just looking at what is on the schedule to be released in the next year, unless something unannounced comes out, it appears my 360 will continue to be putting in overtime while my PS3 takes vacations for months at a time...

Re:I gotta say

[Double Entendre]

I had the exact same reaction when I first this story - why is there so much focus on all the non-gaming features? But then I realized it could be a matter of strategy and control.

In terms of the control, I have often wondered just how much influence the actual console companies can exert over game development houses. They can certainly make it attractive, negotiate exclusivity deals, make it easier to develop for, and profitable to do so, but without owning those companies themselves they'll always just be third-party suppliers.

Which leads me to my main point - perhaps this is part of a larger overall plan to have an extensive feature set ready to go by the time the best games are all available. If I remember correctly, the PS2 didn't really start steam-rolling until all the blockbuster titles arrived on the scene, which took a while. But by that time they were ready. So from that perspective, one could argue that they are doing everything they can to continue to improve the hardware while the developers are getting those titles out the door.

In the next year, we could see the PS3 hit its stride when the price has dropped, the library has hit critical mass, and the feature set is far more extensive than any of its competitors.

Re:I gotta say

[*weasel]

Saying things might change in the future just doesn't matter. If it -does- turn around, it can be re-evaluated whenever that -actually- happens.

And odds are by the PS3 makes sense, it'll be cheaper to have bought a 360 or wii today and a PS3 then, rather than buy a PS3 today and twiddle your thumbs in the interim. Gamers like games. They don't gain anything by denying themselves games in some odd form of platform loyalty.

That whole 'fan' thing is just silly.
It used to be XBox fans defending claims that their console has a worse selection of games with lines like:
'but it's more powerful!'
'b-b-but A/V quality'
'its doing better than the PS2 did at the same point in its release!'
and
'just wait until A and B killer titles release'

And now it's almost perfectly reversed.
Proving once again that people who talk about platforms and potential rather than games are only useful as comic relief.

Re:I gotta say

[Pojut]

I do worry about what the PS3 has for a couple reasons...for starters, I spent 600 bucks on the damn thing. I KNEW when I bought it that there wasn't much for it, but I figured that after the first year or so would be when the real good stuff would start coming out...BZZT wrong.

Another reason why is because I really do like the system. I like the graphics, I like the "feel" of it, I overall enjoy the system. I just don't have much in the way of games that I can enjoy it with.

Re:I gotta say

[Anonymous Coward]

Tsk Tsk have more patience. The PS3 is due for a major break through this 4th quarter and the first quarter of 2008. A lot of new and FUN games are coming out. Look out for metal gear solid/ratchet and clank/final fantasy/ madden is already a hit/ virtua fighter/ and mercenaries 2 just to name a few heavy hitters for the platform.

Re:I gotta say

[GeckoX]

Right, gotcha.

Yep, certainly do hope that this time next year there are lots of worthwhile games for the PS3. I do have hope as Sony has never failed on that in the past...alas, there is a first time for everything...

Re:I gotta say

[GeckoX]

Never said any of that. Wouldn't suggest anyone should buy a PS3 yet actually. I'm just stating historical trends that show that by this time next year, the PS3 should be a decent price with a nice library of quality games available.

If history repeats itself, the PS3 will be a success, and I'll likely buy one then. If it doesn't...then it doesn't. But anyone that already bought a PS3 and is ticked or surprised that there aren't a ton of games yet really shouldn't be surprised.

Heck, what was there for killer games for the PS2 during the first year? GTA 3 sold that system basically, but it was quite a while after before there were many other must have games available. Now of course, there is a huge PS2 library.

So here's hoping history repeats itself, and if not...no biggie.

Re:I gotta say

[Pojut]

Ironically, when it comes to last generation it boiled down like this...

There were MORE games on PS2 that I enjoyed and considered games every gamer should play, however my FAVOURITE games from last-gen were for the most part on Xbox. In addition, the Gamecube had some FANTASTIC games on it as well, but didn't have the same amount of quality or same number of titles that got me excited as either teh box or the ps2.

I think the reason why the PS3 is bothering me so much...I LOVE having a wide swath of games spread over multiple systems...every system has a very different "feel" to it, and I like experiencing a myriad of games on a myriad of consoles....

Unfortunately, with the exception of so few games I could count them on one hand, the 360 (for me anyway) is "winning" this generation hands down...I would say around 90% of the games that have come out for the 7th generation systems that I love have been on the 360...that bothers me that my enjoyment has been confined to that extent on just one system...

Re:I gotta say

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

"Unfortunately, with the exception of so few games I could count them on one hand, the 360 (for me anyway) is "winning" this generation hands down..."

The 360 has been out over a year longer than the Wii and yet the Wii has passed it in console sales. The first party games Nintendo is offering for the Wii (and the ones about to come out this holiday season) are their BIG games. Mario Kart, Metroid, Mario Galaxy.. Nintendo's going to start pulling away and it's not just because of their lower price or the games they're offering. It's because Sony dropped the ball and had that "They'll buy it even if has no games" attitude. And because both Sony and Microsoft had the "People want a media center first and a gaming console second" attitude. Nintendo had the "People want to play fun games and don't want to have to take out a loan to do so" attitude and they're winning.

The only big exclusive title the 360 can offer is Halo, which isn't even a very good shooter. The PS3 has a few exclusives but from what I've heard from even the big Sony fanboys is that they're only "OK"

Re:I gotta say

[Anonymous Coward]

name one of those games that isn't an fps or a driving game.
(Oblivion is an fps)

Re:I gotta say

[Pojut]

Oblivion is an FPS?

I'm sorry...that statement alone makes me not want to even respond to your question any further.

Re:I gotta say

[Pojut]

Did you actually READ my post, or did you just see the word "winning" and assume I meant which system was selling the most? By "winning", I simply meant that most of the games this generation I love have been on the 360. Why the fuck would I care which system sells more?

And don't give me that exclusivity crap, either. I don't care what system a game is released for.

Re:I gotta say

[kidgenius]

Gran Turismo, Metal Gear Solid, LittleBigPlanet, Killzone, Ratchet and Clank, and Haze. That's a variety of games, other than just shooters that are coming in the next year. Other than that, most of the stuff that is highly anticipated is coming out on BOTH systems (COD4, Burnout, Need for Speed), plus don't forget that Final Fantasy is huge for the Playstation.

Re:I gotta say

[Pojut]

Actually, I will respond.

Crackdown, DOA4, Dead Rising, Kameo, GoW, Saints Row, Tenchu Z, Viva Pinata...

Not to mention the wide variety of Xbox Live Arcade games.

Re:I gotta say

[DrXym]

I got my PS3 at the EU launch and I really haven't had problems finding things to do with it. PS3 retail games might have been slow coming but there are some decent titles to play and the drought is basically over. Aside from that it can play PS2 titles, PSN titles (Super Stardust HD is awesome), DVDs, Blu Ray, ripped movies etc. so I've used it for that as well as Linux. Most mornings my 2 year old kid wants to see a DVD so I've ripped a pile for him to pick from. I can see that if someone only used it for PS3 titles they're going to get bored but there is plenty of stuff to be doing otherwise to justify its existence.

Re:I gotta say

[Pojut]

For me, anticipated 360 exclusives coming out in the next year or so:

Ace Combat 6, Beautiful Katamari, Fable 2, GoW 2, Kengo: Legend of the 9, Mass Effect, Too Human, Viva Pinata: Party Animals....

Re:I gotta say

[Mr_Silver]

Now, if there aren't lots of quality games to choose from by this time next year, there will be problems without a doubt.

Agreed, but the PS3 is actually doing pretty well - it is the Wii owners that should be worried.

Assuming a good game is one that has an average score of 80% or higher - then current figures from Metacritic are:

1. PS3 = 19 out of 61 = 31%
2. Wii = 7 out of 78 = 9%
3. Xbox 360 = 59 out of 232 = 25%

I've no doubt that the innovative controller of the Wii could revolutionise gaming and make it more appealling to the masses and that there are great games coming in the future - which is great, but doesn't really mean much if the developers are unable to make and sell games right now which use it well and produce what people consider a "great game".

Re:I gotta say

[bateleur]

Nintendo had the "People want to play fun games and don't want to have to take out a loan to do so" attitude and they're winning.

At least, they are if you're an investor.

From a gamer's perspective, I'm a bit puzzled by the way everyone seems to love console wars. Personally I dislike exclusives. If they're on a console I own that leaves some of my friends unable to share in my enjoyment of the game. If they're on a console I don't own that's just annoying.

The Wii's great for gaming in general, because it reminds people in the industry that actual gameplay matters. Unfortunately there are downsides too - by making what would once have been a custom peripheral into the standard controller, Nintendo ensure that most Wii games will never appear on other platforms. That's bad news for game studios, because it means less revenue per title. And anything that reduces the profitability of titles is ultimately bad for gamers too.

But there is one lesson I really, really hope the other manufacturers take away from the Wii's success: keep the costs down!

Re:I gotta say

[The-Bus]

That's a variety of games, other than just shooters that are coming in the next year Your list is at least 50% shooters.

Re:I gotta say

[mgblst]

Why the fuck would I care which system sells more?

You do realise that the number of games on a system, and the quality of games on a system is directly related to the number of systems sold. I would think that you have a vested interest in seeing more systems sold, for that simple reason.

Re:I gotta say

[Anonymous Coward]

People didn't "conveniently forget just how long the 360 has already been out", they were too busy playing games - on their XBox360 - to remember.

Re:I gotta say

[Pojut]

Appreciated, but to repeat myself, I don't care which console sells THE MOST.

Re:I gotta say

[flitty]

If history repeats itself, the most powerful, and expensive system that was later out of the gate with only one or two strong exclusives will stay second on the charts throughout it's generation, even if the price does come down to match it's competition (remember the $200, then $150 price cuts of the ps2 and xbox?). Even if it gets more exclusives that are considered "better" games, they have to come early in the life of the console, or else they don't really matter.

The reason why the ps2 did so well was the wealth of titles, good or bad, that you could choose from, now, the wii is starting to take the casual gamer away from the ps2 (which most people who bought one were casual), and the 360 is picking up the slack with more games. the 360 has better exclusives at this point (mmm, wish i was home playing Bioshock right now), and the "holiday titles" of the ps3 are coming out with mediocre reviews at best. Sony is in trouble, and they know it, just go to sonydefenseforce.com if you want a laugh about how bad it is for them.

Re:I gotta say

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok think of it like this... you buy a 360... with it you can... play games, watch DVD's, and use it as a media centre.

You buy the PS3... with it, you can play games (Ninja Gaiden, Resistance, Motostorm, Heavenly Sword, Warhawk, MGS4, yadda yadda), media centre, watch DVD's, watch BluRay, run Folding@Home, integrate with a handheld, and now watch and record HDTV in Europe.

if I'm spending this much money on a device, I DAMN WELL WANT IT TO DO MORE THEN PLAY GAMES.

Re:I gotta say

[Anonymous Coward]

(End of console lifecycle games are traditionally the best on sony consoles) So once is now traditionally? How many sony game systems have gone end of life cycle? Thanks captain math.

Re:I gotta say

[Pojut]

I understand what you are saying, I'm not saying it's BAD that the PS3 does those things...I'm just saying that I wish that it had a better library of games is all.

In all honesty, I really don't care about that other stuff...I bought the system primarily to play games on it...yes, I know it's a "great deal" getting all of that in one package, but getting that stuff didn't influence my purchase at all...I still would have bought one anyway even if the only thing it did was play games.

WHat I'm so frustrated about is not the price or anything like that, but the fact that most of the games I bought it for have either been pushed back time and time again, or have gone multi-platform (thus rendering the "need" for a PS3 a bit moot)

Realistically, the only things coming out for it that have me REALLY excited are Lair, Warhawk, Haze, and God of War 3....Compared to the list of stuff coming out for the 360 that has me excited (which if you go further up in the thread you will see...don't feel like looking for it all)

I really really want to like the PS3 as a gaming console, but Sony is making it very difficult. They should have just forgone the whole gaming aspect and released it as a multimedia powerhouse (with a bit less muscle under the case) and charged half-price for it...

Re:I gotta say

[asc99c]

Haven't Playstations always been the same? Sony isn't a software company and can't provide as much support as MS have done with the Xbox 360. Considering also the year lead of the 360, it's fairly safe to assume the PS3 would be about 18 months behind on software. Developers from all corners have been complaining of the difficulty or working with the PS3, which is the same as was true for PS1 and PS2.

The Xbox came with standard Direct-X programming tools that PC developers were already familiar with. On the Xbox, first gen games looked pretty similar to what was coming out later on. On PS2 by comparison, the bar was raised every year - it still is even now. E.g. Red Faction looked great in 2001, but it's rubbish by the standards of God of War 2.

Unfortunately everyone concentrates on getting the graphics bit right for the first year. In that sense the Wii did a great favour to it's buyers by pretty much being a statement that graphics weren't important - developers from the start just made some fun games. PS3 developers feel they at least have to outdo PS2 and Xbox graphics before they can look at gameplay. It'll work out over the next year.

Re:I gotta say

[shoptroll]

If you think Final Fantasy XIII is going to be out within the next year, can I have what you're smoking? At best you're still looking at a November maybe December US release. And that's being overly optimistic. Oh yeah, and I'm talking 11/08 and 12/08. Which would be a miracle since the last update they gave put the completion at 13% (which might have been a facetious answer to begin with) a few months ago. I guess we'll see what they say at the upcoming Tokyo Game Show.

Even if they were to ship it in Japan in the Spring of '08, you still need at least 8 months for localization and production time for the US release. Unless they're planning a global simultaneous release, which would be a first, but I think they'll use Last Remnant as a testing ground for that, since they usually use side projects like Remnant to test the waters with riskier things.

Oh and even if they do give a rough estimate for a release date, how many times was Final Fantasy XII delayed?

Re:I gotta say

[Anonymous Coward]

The Wii's great for gaming in general, because it reminds people in the industry that actual gameplay matters. Unfortunately there are downsides too - by making what would once have been a custom peripheral into the standard controller, Nintendo ensure that most Wii games will never appear on other platforms.

Very well put, but I disagree slightly. The truth is that there are cross-platform games that work on both the Wii and other platforms. The problem isn't that they won't make the same games, but that they will make the same games, market them as the same games, but they'll be fundamentally different for each platform, and often one of them will be fundamentally flawed.

A cross-platform game on the PS2, PS3 and Xbox 360 can have almost identical game play, but there wont be much the same about the game play if one of them aims with the thumb and the other aims by waving around a stick. For years FPS fans have known that a keyboard and mouse is hugely different than Dual-Shock and the Xbox controller. They're just not the same game. The same will be true for the Wii with most types of games out there.

By everyone's insistence that almost everything on the Wii has to be done by waving a stick, they're missing the point that not everything really is better. Just as a Dual-Shock is better at driving a car than a keyboard and mouse are, Dual-Shock also beats Wiimote driving.

The Wiimote is an amazing controller, but Wii developers would do well to look at the PS2 for an example. Dance-Dance, Eye-Toy and Guitar Hero all got custom stuff to make control better. Even if the "custom" controller is just a Game Cube controller, in some cases it might be the only way to make a cross-platform game really cross platform.

Re:I gotta say

[Isotopian]

Dude. Two words - Viva Pinata.
Seriously one of the most fun games I've played on the 360.

Re:I gotta say

[Gravatron]

I think thats really the great oddity this time around. Nintendo doesn't have the games, yet everyone claims it does. Not to mention, despite lacking features, games, and power, it's still the best selling console. I had one for 7 months, and thought it was pretty average to bad, and people think i'm insane for saying that. I gave it an honest shot, it just failed to live up to it.

Re:I gotta say

[Gravatron]

The reviews for ps3 games have been all over the map really, and the only two of the "holiday games" so far with reviews were lair and Heavenly sword. Nothing else to my knowledge has been reviewed yet.

The ps2 lacked games early on, even compaired with the dreamcast, which at the point of the ps2's launch had a stellar lineup going for it. The 360 is doing great, and seems to be holding itself well. The wii is in trouble game wise, with only a handful of first party titles getting any sort of notice. Most games on that console were sub-average so far. Sony had the game game draught as nintendo, but Sony's got more higher rated games out, and there are somethng like 15 fall titles i'm keeping my eye on.

Re:I gotta say

[MBraynard]

There are two flaws with your evaluation. I can't believe you got modded 5.

First, you don't buy games based on the percentage of all games that are over 80, you buy games that are over 80 (assuming that means good). So 360 has the most games over 80 - 3 times as many as PS3.

As a more complicated evaluation, you should not necessarily include cross platform in evaluating 360/PS3 unless there is a substantial difference in the games. This is what is bringing the 360 down - the cross platforms average higher than 80 - so if you remove them, PS3 will have even less games over 80 and possibly a lower percentage over 80.

The crux of this is the number matters, not the percentage. There was a massive amount of shovelware for the PS1/PS2 - remember? But that didn't detract from GTA, etc.

Re:I gotta say

[backdoc]

Games don't have to make use of the new Wii remotes to be fun. That would make them more cross-platform (and more fun to me). In fact, I think it would be a huge mistake if all of the game makers thought they had make every game like the Wii Sports games.

I bought a Wii for my son last Christmas. And, he doesn't ever play it. But, everyday when I come home from work and pick him up from school, he can't wait to get home and play Super Smash Bros with me on his Game Cube.

Game studios need to design games that don't require the game player to move to control the action. But, it needs to sense the player's motion and treat this motion more like a hint to the game. For example, when my wife plays Mario Kart on the Game Cube she leans and tries to steer the remote (like it was doing some good). What the game makers need to do is to pick up on that motion for added actions (like sliding in a turn or making a sharper turn). I can't get used to games like Spongebob where you have to tilt the remote to turn. That sucks, to me.

Re:I gotta say

[Gravatron]

I'm looking forward to Warhawk, Uncharted, Eye of Judgement, Folklore, as well as the above games. Eye Of Judgement has me stoked, with it's cheep price ($60 with the camera). Toss in the PSN games (Wipeout HD fTW!) and i'm hooked this fall. The multiplatform stuff is nice, but it's all the nitche stuff thats comming that makes me love the ocnsole. EoJ alone will get a ton of playtime, given the ceoncept and my love of card games.

Re:I gotta say

[Anonymous Coward]

The first party games Nintendo is offering for the Wii (and the ones about to come out this holiday season) are their BIG games. Mario Kart, Metroid, Mario Galaxy

I'm curious how well these will do relative to the install base? I know they're going to be extremely popular and successful among the same sort of people who bought the earlier version, but Nintendo has done an awesome job of bringing "non-gamers" into the fold. Grandmas and grandpas are playing Wii bowling like there's no tomorrow. But will grandma and grandpa be interested in Mario Kart, Metroid or Mario Galaxy?

I think they'll all see tremendous sales, but if you take the number of Wii units out there and divid by the number of Metroid copies sold, would you have better sales per console than say, Halo or Heavenly Sword?

My guess is that bringing so many different types of gamers into the fold, Developers are going to need to make a wider variety of games. Metroid is for the young set. They need to please the old-timers as well.

Re:I gotta say

[GeckoX]

I'm sorry, I'm sure I remembered there being 3 Playstation's...end:sarcasm

Oh, you're being pedantic, suggesting that the PS2 is _not_ in it's end of life cycle and hasn't born this out? When in fact it is, and has, just like the PS before it.

Best games for the PS1 came out after the PS2 was released...PS1's end of life cycle.
Best games for the PS2 have or are coming out...after the PS3 was released...PS2's end of life cycle.

Care to try again?

Re:I gotta say

[Stevecrox]

I'm not a fan of the 360 mostly because many of the games on it don't appeal to me or I can get them on the PC. But I purchased a PS3 a couple of weeks ago and haven't touched any of my PC games since. Motorstorm, Resistance Fall of Man and Pirates of the Carribean are all getting a real workout. I am still currently still living at home at the moment and ever since I got motorstorm almost every night several family members come in so we can take turns on Motorstorm, Resistance's online play is keeping me playing that quite regularly which is cool because apart from Counterstrike I've never been a huge console FPS player and pirates is just simple fun.

I agree not every game is great Sonic the Hedgehog was yet anouther 3d disapointment from "Team Sonic"*. But just those three have kept me going a while and I'm hearing great things about Oblivion and Transformers. To be honest I'm worried I don't have the time to play and beat them all before GTA IV comes out.

*Team Sonic seem to enjoy destroying the Sonic franchise, I know I'm using a PS3 but I'd love a 2D sonic game, give me hundreds of levels and take 2D graphics as far as you can and I'd be happy for life, Sonic, Tails, Robotnik, Amy and Knuckles were all the charracters I wanted adding clones and call them different names just annoys me. Making me run in a stupid group annoys me, making the game load for thirty seconds for one line of charracter text irratates me, trying to turn Sonic into a zelda/mario platform style game angers me. I mean they almost had it right with one level I did where sonic ran flat out and I had to control his path, if it has to be 3d give me that.

Re:I gotta say

[MayorDefacto]

I bought a Wii for my son last Christmas. And, he doesn't ever play it. But, everyday when I come home from work and pick him up from school, he can't wait to get home and play Super Smash Bros with me on his Game Cube.
Not to nitpick, but why do you still have a Gamecube if you've got a Wii? It'll play those little discs just fine...

Re:I gotta say

[Anonymous Coward]

EOJ is looking a lot more like "the bundled eyetoy game" for the PS3, given that it costs the same as a normal game and comes with the camera. Looks like a decent concept, but it requires two players physically present and probably with their own deck, so at root it's a new CCG. So I don't hold out much hope for EOJ, not because it's a game that has to be a CCG, but because it's a CCG that requires being at a console. I'd love to be proven wrong though.

Re:I gotta say

[dafing]

you're very correct on that, but when you say how Sony always does this etc, we really only have the ps to ps2 to talk about! Here in NZ, we still get PS2 games getting advertised far more than PS3, to my knowledge anyway. I wonder, when is the point when the PS2 just dies? Im going to wait a little longer before considering getting a PS3, Ill wait till the price comes down. I remember reading on slashdot that the current PS2 costs 13% of what the first PS2s cost to make?!?

Re:I gotta say

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you may need to improve your reading comprehension skills. The grandparent seems to point to neither percentages or numbers as being the problem and certainly isn't throwing out figures that are "bringing the 360 down".

I suspect that you believe the listing of figures is an ordered list but a closer look will clearly show it's not ordered how you think it is. The 360 has the most games (as you noted) but also the 2nd highest percentage. Therefore if the list was sorted numerically by either of those figures the 360 would be 1st or 2nd. Rather the list appears to be sorted alphabetically: P coming before W and W coming before X. Nothing is "bringing the 360 down".

What the grandparent did state, and stated fairly clearly, was the the Wii has a lack of good games. That's whether you look at percentage or totals. You seem to be distracted by a simple table to the point that you can't actually read the data or the post. I can't believe you got modded up.

Re:I gotta say

[MikeBabcock]

Of course the fan thing is silly. Then again, I have 12 PS3-exclusive games for my PS3 right now and I enjoy them greatly as do my friends and family. There are at least 15 more coming out by Christmas that I'd like to get my hands on too (yes, exclusive titles).

Does it make sense to buy a PS3 to play a $70 copy of Oblivion when the 360's version is half that these days? Of course not. What I don't understand though is why anti-Sony people forget that unlike MS, Sony didn't totally screw over its customers and is publishing more games for the PS2 this year than for the PS3 and is still selling the PS2 at a very competitive rate.

Sure, like some people say, there are games that will fit on a DVD and don't need HD output, and they're being published for the PS2 which costs less than any of the current gen hardware and does a great job of playing those games. You can also play them upscaled on a PS3 of course, alongside the exclusive BD and Playstation Network based games. Personally I can't imagine why I'd want a 360, but to each their own.

Re:I gotta say

[MBraynard]

My point was that your inclusion of percentages was useless. That was all.

Re:I gotta say

[Guppy06]

"Yes, but we're just coming into the first real release season for the PS3. Over the next year that will change."

I realize that you're responding to someone talking about the PS3 versus the Xbox 360, but really... you can go keep waiting for "things to change," I'm going to go out next week and get Metroid Prime 3 for a system that came out the same week as the PS3.

I do own a PS3, as well as an Xbox 360 and a Wii. Of the three, the PS3 is the only one for which I own no games written specifically for it. I admit I bought one because I see the chance for a game gracing the system that I'd want to play and didn't want to get stuck with a later model's software PS2 emulation, but the Wii has been giving me fun with new games as well as some old GameCube lovin'.

Re:I gotta say

[Anonymous Coward]

you're a full-of-shit sony fanboy. there arent 12 games out for the ps3 yet, let alone 12 exclusives. you're a lameass frickin troll

Re:I gotta say

[donaldm]

It no use winging at Sony why don't you petition the Games Producers. I don't remember hearing of Sony sending over the Goon squad to the Game producers to force them to make games for their machine. In case you are interested there are over 60 native PS3 games available now with many more to come and well over 3000 PS1 and PS2 (and more coming out) games that play on the PS3.

If you look at Xbox360 games they are mainly FPS or Shooters which are fairly easy to make since there are game engines available for this. If you like these then fine but IMHO they get repetitious quickly, that is why I have no interest in Xbox360 games. The same game engines can be ported to the PS3 but this takes time and to be honest why would you like clones of the games that are on the Xbox360. Programming for the PS3 is not any more difficult as it is for the Xbox360 or the PC it is just different. All Gaming companies have programmers who have varying skills so a programmer that is good with PC related programming may not be much good (and usually aren't) with PS3 programming even though the "base" programming language for this machine is C and C++. In reality the graphics artist would rarely program but just learn and utilise the graphics engine.

The biggest problem with producing a game is not really the programmers or artists it really is the all over development from the initial concept through to the actual production and distribution of a game and this sometime requires the budget of a Hollywood movie with all the risks that have to be taken. A single bad game as well as a bad movie can bankrupt a Game/Movie Company, so that is why we see the same old games and movies being repeats with maybe a little extra window dressing. It is a really brave game company that experiments today.

Re:I gotta say

[backdoc]

Because the Wii is in the family room high upon a shelf. It works fine with the wireless remotes. But, his GC remotes aren't wireless. So, it would be difficult to use them without moving the Wii, which I do not want to do. Not only that, but he doesn't have enough room in his bedroom to play Wii games like Wii Sports Bowling. It costs us nothing to have it set up this way. Now, if the Wii remotes would work with the GC games, I would not be doing it this way.

Re:I gotta say

[Guppy06]

"That's bad news for game studios, because it means less revenue per title."

This assumes that the growth of the market is stagnant or non-existant. The whole point of the new control scheme, as Nintendo has repeated ad nauseam, is to make gaming more accessable to non-gamers.

If the conrol scheme expands the market in the way Nintendo hopes to (and, so far, it seems to be), then there will actually be more revenue from Wii exclusives as the game will be available to people who simply aren't interested in the kind of gaming the other two consoles provide.

Your opinions about console exclusives are only valid if the consoles in question are interchangeable, with little or no difference in gameplay between them. The Wii control scheme is trying to break out of that in a big way, seems to be succeeding, and because reality no longer resembles your worldview, your response is to complain about how others are straying and have changed reality rather than adjust your worldview.

Re:I gotta say

[bateleur]

If the control scheme expands the market in the way Nintendo hopes to (and, so far, it seems to be), then there will actually be more revenue from Wii exclusives

The games market as a whole will be worth a lot more, but it doesn't follow from this that an individual title will generate more income for a developer.

Current Wii installed base is about 11M worldwide, with the XBox 360 also over the 10M mark and the PS3 clear of 4M. So even if Nintendo's design decisions doubled the Wii's market that's still less than half the size a cross-platform market would have been had things been different.

Re:I gotta say

[Guppy06]

"Current Wii installed base is about 11M worldwide, with the XBox 360 also over the 10M mark and the PS3 clear of 4M. So even if Nintendo's design decisions doubled the Wii's market that's still less than half the size a cross-platform market would have been had things been different."

First off, your math is off: it would be 2/3 of the market.

And you still seem to be missing the point: an expanded market. 2/3 of 20 million is more than all of 10 million. If you're going to look at numbers, how much longer until the total number of console owners (remember to discount those that own more than one) surpasses what it was from the previous generation?

Re:I gotta say

[LKM]

The funny thing is, during the last gen, the Cube was the only console worth owning to me. One of the best Zelda games of all time, a fantastic stop into 3D for Metroid, Super Monkey Ball as a launch title, great Mario Party games, a really, really fun version of Mario Kart, Super Smash Bros: Melee, Resident Evil 4, Viewtiful Joe...

The Cube did not get a lot of games, but almost all of the games I actually wanted to own were on the Cube.

This gen is different. Each console has exclusive games that I want to play. Bio Shock and many great arcade games on the 360, stuff like Echochrome and Little Big Planet on the PS3, and the usual suspects on the Wii. I had no issues owning only the Cube during the last gen and never felt like I was missing a lot of stuff that was of interest to me (I did miss a few gems Dragon Quest, Okami, Shadow of the Colossus, Psychonauts and a bunch of other games, but they weren't a lot of games, and I've now bought them for my PS3). It looks like this gen, I'll have to own all three consoles.

Re:I gotta say

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

If I came out with a home gaming console that was in 200 million homes next week you bet your dick people would be making games for it. That's 200,000,000 customers to pay $50 per game.

The Wii's out selling the 360 and the big game houses have said "We dropped the ball on the Wii and will be developing more games for that console in the future."

The console that sells "THE MOST" is the winner by everyone's standards but yours.

And Exclusivity drives sales.

And your "OMG THE MOST GAEMS" argument is a lot like the one used by Playstation fans during the Playstation/N64 wars. And I shall reply as I did when I was defending Nintendo at that time:

"Quality over quantity."

Re:I gotta say

[Pojut]

Once again. I don't care which system sells the most, seeing as in any given generation I am very likely to buy all of the available systems. Exclusivity doesn't matter to me when I am almost guaranteed to have the system that exclusive will be released for anyway.

The reasoning

[Anonymous Coward]

Being a half-assed blu-ray player is not enough to convince people to buy a PS3 so now they're trying to make it a half-assed Tivo too.

Re:The reasoning

[91degrees]

There aren't actually a lot of good PVRs available in Europe. A half-assed Tivo would probably make it one of the best.

Re:The reasoning

[Minwee]

No, Sony is working to make it a fully assed Blu-Ray player to compete with the HD-TnA format.

Re:The reasoning

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, at least now they're using their whole ass.

Re:The reasoning

[Highroller]

It's an awesome Blu-ray player and looks amazing on a HD television. Do yourself a favor a check one out at the store before you pass judgement.

Re:The reasoning

[Kjella]

Being a half-assed blu-ray player is not enough to convince people to buy a PS3 so now they're trying to make it a half-assed Tivo too.

From what I understand, it's a very good Blu-Ray player. It's being a game console it's half-assed (or at least overpriced) at.

Re:The reasoning

[shippo]

There's certainly not many reliable ones out there.

I purchased a Sagem one around 2 years ago. The firmware as shipped was hopelessly unreliable; the most major fault being a nasty habit breaking a recording into multiple files with 8 minute pauses in between.

The user interface was awful. The EPG screen listed channels in a column on the left hand side of the screen, with the picture from the watched channel in the top left corner. A listing for the selected channel would take up the rest of the screen. However when you changed the channel whose listing you wanted to view, the picture in the top left would change to that channel too. Not only that but the EPG listing would revert to the current time, and not whatever you were viewing before. Scrolling through the 7 days of the EPG was awful, too, as you could either jump through a programme at a time, or just to the beginning of the next day. So if you wanted to set a schedule across multiple channels a few days in advance it became quite a chore, particularly a there was no warning if you inadvertantly scheduled two recordings at the same time.

There were several software updates broadcast over the air, which fixed some of the functionality, but the EPG never got any better. In fact it got slightly worse, as one of the updates changed the font and colour scheme to something somewhat harder to read. In the end I gave the thing away.

Other PVRs are not better. Mine got its EPG from data broadcast continually on all 6 multiplexes, but only covering the next 7 days. Other competing models use EPGs from a couple of private suppliers, which cover 14 days instead. These only broadcast at a set time overnight, which can cause problems if recording or watching a channel on another frequency at that time. These EPGs also can't reflect late schedule changes, and one of them is broadcast on the multiplex broadcast at the weakest power on many transmitters - consequentially some users can't receive it at all.

Re:The reasoning

[MikeBabcock]

Okay, I'll bite, Mr. Troll. What's wrong with the PS3 as a blu-ray disc player? Price obviously isn't it, support for 24fps isn't either, how about audio format support? oh its got those too, on HDMI for PCM 7.1 and optical for dts/DD/pcm 2channel. What exactly mr. troll is wrong with the PS3 as a BD player? The only negative comment I've seen by a major reviewer (since the forced 24fps option came out) is that they didn't like the lack of integrated IR (although the PS2 IR receiver works fine with a PS2->PS3 controller adapter).

It will be crippled

[La Gris]

Be sure it will be crippled so channels not willing to let your record or transmit via network will be blocked for that.

I just ordered a DreamBox DM7025 (waiting for it in 2 to 3 weeks) with two DVB-S (satellite) tuners. This one run with VDR and Linux. It can't do HD video but, well there are so few or interrestings ones in here...
And the DreamBox is will not block anything. If I can view a channel, I can record and broadcast it to my LAN via standard protocols and codecs to use with VideoLan.

Re:It will be crippled

[timeOday]

In the US, I don't believe there is any way to capture HD digital signals from satellite or cable (except for a locked-down set-top box) is there? That's why I'm still on analog cable. If I can't watch it where and when I want to, I'm just not interested.

Re:It will be crippled

[vivek7006]

In the US, I don't believe there is any way to capture HD digital signals from satellite or cable (except for a locked-down set-top box) is there?

You can capture unencrypted QAM channels on your cable. All the network TV stations like ABC, NBC, FOX, PBS, etc are available in unencrypted QAM. In my area, even PPV content including pr0n is available! just buy this and use it with MythTV or MCE

Re:It will be crippled

[LordVader717]

Since the PS3 hasn't got a CI port there's no chance of watching encrypted content anyway.

almost worth the price

[brenddie]

A couple more features like this one and it will be worth to pay $500.

Re:almost worth the price

[Kjella]

Umm... you didn't think the dual-1080p tuners would magically grow out of your PS3 do you? It will be an add-on, knowing Sony an expensive one at that. Very impressive all the same though, but you gotta wonder how much 1080p programming you'll fit on the PS3 HDD. I'd sure want to hook up a 500GB external or so.

Re:almost worth the price

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one welcome our magically appearing dual 1080p extreme overlords.

Re:almost worth the price

[CastrTroy]

For $130, you could get a single tuner (one of each) ATSC/NTSC card. That's $230 for a dual tuner set up. Add $500 for a computer capable as a media centre, and $80 for sageTV, and for about $800 you have a really good media center. A little expensive, but it will be more nicely integrated, than what you get with the PS3 set up. You'll get a much better experience, because you can do whatever you want with the videos, convert them to play on your PSP off an SD card, or play them on your ipod, or whatever other device you happen to own. I've even set up a custom conversion (it uses ffmpeg from what I know) to convert videos to flash, so I can watch them on my Wii.

Re:almost worth the price

[Doctor Faustus]

But doesn't that limit you to stuff that is broadcast over the air? I think the only over-the-air broadcast show I have any interest in is Nova.

Blame it on comcast...

[cybrthng]

They dash any hopes of this happening :(

CableCard addons could have worked but comcast would have to certify the whole PS3 video recording "chain" and that would take so long the product would never reach the consumer in time for it to make a difference.

PS3 or not, i wish more devices could have DVR functionality. I want consumer cablecard in my MediaCenter/360 combination as well but that won't happen unless i re-buy my media center and bullocks to that! I also don't want Comcast flagging my content either.

OTA FTW

I swear

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony: if you add PVR capabilities to your US models, I will buy the PS3. I bet others who have been wavering will as well. A lot of others.

I love the PS3. It is an awesome piece of hardware. It pushes the envelope. It is driving progress in parallel software architecture and creation. Some good games are presently available, and I feel certain that the next generation of coolness will be created for the PS3--something truly wicked this way comes.

However, a game machine is not enough to warrant the price. I have been waiting for all the other promised applications: music, PVR, etc. Just the PVR alone would warrant my purchase, with the games being frosting on the cake.

Re:I swear

[Rosyna]

Sony: if you add PVR capabilities to your US models, I will buy the PS3. That's a flat-out lie and you know it.

Even if Sony did add this to the US models, you'd have some other silly reason for not purchasing the PS3. You have no intention of buying a PS3, no matter what Sony does.

Re:I swear

[Anonymous Coward]

add PVR capabilities to your US models Should that be ATSC, some (which) type of sattelite service, or a non-working cable-card?

Re:I swear

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony: if you add PVR capabilities to your US models, I will buy the PS3. That's a flat-out lie and you know it. It's a good thing all ACs are really linked to one big collective mind and none of them would ever see an increase of value for the same outlay of cash as a good thing.

Re:I swear

[GweeDo]

You would dish out that much money to be able to record a total of what...like 4 channels at best? (and if you lived where I do that # would be 0)

The PS3 what's that?

[ironwill96]

Oh, right, that new Blu-Ray player / DVR / DVD Player that Sony came out with. I heard that they are thinking of even adding some functionality to it to play games eventually!

All jesting aside (yes the 360 does many functions too), does anyone else wonder if the console makers have strayed to far from the core purposes of the consoles themselves - to provide gaming entertainment? One of the big draws that I always saw for consoles was the idea that it was a cheaper device that you knew would work with every game you purchased, compared to the computer that, while more powerful, needed to be upgraded to keep it top of the line and often has compatibility issues with games due to the massive amount of variety in the hardware present in computers. This draw seems to have lessened in recent years though since the new consoles are coming out on faster and faster release cycles (with the new advent of releasing 'better' versions of the same console during the console's release cycle - see the 360 elite as an example of this), and also are costing more and more money so saying you can't get a decent computer to play the games on for the same price is becoming less of a reality.

For me, I want my console to play lots of games and i'm also ok with basic DVD player functionality if the console is sharing that ability due to utilizing similar media for the games. But adding all of these other extras while nice, forces me to pay for something that I may not want. I want to play games, not have an inferior (in almost every case) HD/Blu-Ray player or DVR. The stand-alone products are almost always going to include more features, be more up to date to the current, evolving industry standards, and also let you purchase it only if you want it!

The bundling of un-asked for features needs to be stopped - at least if you do this make it an optional add-on attached to an expansion port of some sort so those of us who don't want it don't pay for it (like the HD-DVD add-on for the 360).

Re:The PS3 what's that?

[faloi]

does anyone else wonder if the console makers have strayed to far from the core purposes of the consoles themselves - to provide gaming entertainment?

One would think they'd only have to look at the Wii to figure out it really is still about the games. The Wii is old hardware, doesn't do anything very special, has some new controller mechanisms and is great fun to play...for many different groups of people (including non-gamers).

I'm tempted to get a 360, because it's got some cool games that I'd like to play. There's nothing compelling to me about getting a Playstation 3, and I've owned both earlier Playstations.

Re:The PS3 what's that?

[robizzle]

Microsoft has said that one of the goals of the 360 was to help Microsoft get into the consumer's family room. And, it makes sense when you are a company with 60,000 programmers in Redmond alone. Games will always be the primary concern for both Sony and Microsoft but you can only put so many developers on one aspect for so long before it becomes over saturated. So we start to see all these other technologies arise.

For Microsoft, each technology synergies with other Microsoft technologies (the ability to stream from your Windows PVR makes Media Center more desirable, XNA makes programmers that develop for the 360 also have a very easy time delivering the same code to PC and visa versa.) However, for Sony it seems like each of these new technologies is just another effort to increase console sales.

Re:The PS3 what's that?

[jimstapleton]

Consoles costing a lot of money and doing everything but games? I've not seen that really. Then again, people say I spend too much time playing with my Wii...

Re:The PS3 what's that?

[DrXym]

All jesting aside (yes the 360 does many functions too), does anyone else wonder if the console makers have strayed to far from the core purposes of the consoles themselves - to provide gaming entertainment?

Do you have any evidence that suggests consoles are less capable at playing games from providing these other features? Personally I think the fact that the PS3 is a audio / picture / movie / DVD / blu ray player, a web browser in addition to being a kickass consoles is a wonderful thing. It's acknowledgement that that box sitting plugged into your TV can be doing other stuff when it's not playing games. That isn't a bad thing, especially considering the price of it.

Even the Wii with its diminished capabilities still offers picture & movie clip playback and web browsing amongst its channels.

Re:The PS3 what's that?

[fistfullast33l]

Okay, you're either trolling or being a moron. Let's take a quick look at your argument.

draw seems to have lessened in recent years though since the new consoles are coming out on faster and faster release cycles (with the new advent of releasing 'better' versions of the same console during the console's release cycle - see the 360 elite as an example of this),

Actually, developers have complained that the multiple SKUs on the 360 have caused them to always default to the lesser SKU - they can't count on having a hard drive. See Oblivion for example - it actually got to the point where you were required to have the hard drive. Multiple SKUs might be nice if they're just upgrading the disk size or adding a non-necessary feature, but what about adding 1080p output to the 360? Who's going to support it if just a small percentage of the install base actually has that feature? I think a constant hardware base is probably the best bet, while improving hardware manufacturing will help lower costs.

Oh, and faster release cycles? I think that's basically Microsoft that has that problem, and even then it's only been one generation change. They entered the game late last generation and early this time around. The PS2 has been out for 7 years already, and they've committed to the PS3 for at least as long, if not longer. I'm not sure how long the Wii will last, but the gamecube has been around 5 years...that's not a short lifetime at all, considering that I tend to have to upgrade my computer every 3 years or so to keep up with the latest in computer game technology.

want to play games, not have an inferior (in almost every case) HD/Blu-Ray player or DVR.

Inferior Bluray player? Just about every review of the PS3 movie playback has said it's the best BluRay player on the market - and sales suggest that consumers agree. I've actually thrown out my DVD player in favor of using just one device - the PS3 - for all my entertainment needs. Hell, I don't even have to load my music onto the PS3 at this point, I just stream it from my NAS using mediatomb on Linux. Add in the remote play via the PSP and I don't have to take my music on the road either, I can access it from any WAP.

Sony is taking a big hit because they supposedly don't have many great games out (I have 8 that I swap out regularly, and I haven't touched Resistance in 6 months). The only people complaining are the ones who own two or three consoles, and why you'd want to buy both the 360 and the PS3 and then complain about price and game availability is beyond me.

Re:The PS3 what's that?

[TheRaven64]

Inferior Bluray player? Just about every review of the PS3 movie playback has said it's the best BluRay player on the market When the PS2 came out, every review I read said that DVD playback was inferior to even cheap stand-alone players (cheap being a relative term at this point). I suspect that a lot of criticisms of the PS3's BD playback come from taking this single data point and extrapolating to the latest generation.

Re:The PS3 what's that?

[Cadallin]

All jesting aside (yes the 360 does many functions too), does anyone else wonder if the console makers have strayed to far from the core purposes of the consoles themselves - to provide gaming entertainment?

Yes. Which is why Nintendo is kicking ass and taking names in the marketplace, while making more profits at it than either of their competitors ever have.

Re:The PS3 what's that?

[Anonymous Coward]

have you ever used that stuff ?

Re:The PS3 what's that?

[DrXym]

Yes I use it all of the time. Why shouldn't I?

Re:The PS3 what's that?

[cowscows]

All that extra non-gaming stuff shoved into a game console should just be the syrup, no doubt. The problem is that in regards to the core-function, gaming, the PS3 has had a pretty sad showing compared to its competitors so far. Running with the food analogy because food is awesome, all the syrup is nice, but it's not that great without the pancakes. It's just a cup of syrup.

And you mentioned the price as being appealing, but I think it's actually the problem. Nobody wants to pay extra for their syrup. You don't buy pancakes and then get charged extra for the syrup. Sony is charging some extra for the syrup, that's why their console is significantly more expensive than the others. So you're paying for your syrup, and the pancakes underneath aren't even that good.

I bought my PS2 for $250 after GTA3 came out. Those were some excellent pancakes. The PS2 also happened to play DVD's. That was an excellent bonus, but I would've bought the PS3 without that, because $250 was not an unreasonable price for a game console in my mind.

Food analogies are better than car analogies, although they're both pretty dumb.

Re:The PS3 what's that?

[Anonymous Coward]

> When the PS2 came out, every review I read said that DVD playback was inferior to even cheap stand-alone players

The picture quality on my PS2 is actually slightly better than the standalone Panasonic player I have, which was actually well-reviewed for its quality. Then again, I don't have a launch PS2, though it isn't a slim model (that came out like a month after I bought mine). I guess when they replaced the flakey drives, they changed out all the dvd playback firmware too.

I still use the panasonic. I'd switch to the xbox instead, which upscales (yay elite model), but the drive in the thing is so farking LOUD.

Re:The PS3 what's that?

[dedtr9]

Nintendo is doing better because it doesn't have extra features? How is that logic?

Re:The PS3 what's that?

[cplusplus]

Don't you get it? This is not so much about games anymore. Whoever wins this round will be the dominant force in media entertainment during the next round. HD-DVD/BluRay are probably the last generation of media for home rental. The world is moving toward on-demand and downloadable content. Microsoft and Sony want to be firmly entrenched in your living room when it really takes off. I, for one, love renting HD movies via Xbox Live.

Re:The PS3 what's that?

[asc99c]

Considering how many PS2 games were already using 2 or 3 DVDs, using higher-capacity media seems to make perfect sense for the next-gen console - it seems like a decent decision to make Blu-Ray a feature for that reason. For what it's worth the Blu-Ray player in the PS3 is excellent. I've got mine hooked up with HDMI to a 1080p TV and I've been watching the Planet Earth series - the quality is fantastic.

I'd have thought there was quite a lot of overlap between games enthusiasts and film / home theatre enthusiasts. Even more so for those who like their games beautifully rendered in high def goodness.

Re:The PS3 what's that?

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a bit over-simplified, but by Nintendo not trying to make the Wii an all-singing all-dancing hi-definition multimedia machine, they have kept their costs down which allows them to sell the Wii at a reasonable affordable price and still make a profit on it.

Re:The PS3 what's that?

[Anonymous Coward]

In case you haven't noticed, all PlayStations are known as Computer Entertainment System, not just a game console. So having all these features is not deviating from its original purpose. You may not like having these features but most of the consumer devices benefit from having more features not less. Why do you think there are cell phones with GPS, camera, games, etc. built-in? Because consumers want value for money.

PS3 still works out-of-the-box and is far more stable compared with the other time bomb system. The main reason why PS3 is more expensive than when PS2 was released is because it's got a hard drive and has a very sophisticated cooling system. The other crap box never charged proper price since they thought they had to compete with PS2 on a similar price range, hence they are still bleeding billions of dollars.

Show us a computer that is priced similar to PS3, can play the latest games, PS1 games, PS2 games and Blu-ray movies. If you are happy with the DVD player functionality, why next-gen? PS2 can still play DVD, is cheap, and has a lot of games still coming out for it.

Developers asked for extra storage space on PS3 and being able to play Blu-ray is just an added bonus. Sony's commitment to PS3 ensures that it will update the firmware to keep it up with the latest industry standards and it is already one of the best Blu-ray player on the market. In contrast, the HD-DVD add-on is a joke against PS3's ultra quiet operation. On top of this all Blu-ray discs are scratch-free unlike the current DVDs or HD-DVDs. This factor alone makes it worthwhile to invest in Blu-ray technology as I've got so sick of scratched DVDs.

So what is the PS3 again?

[Yvan256]

We keep hearing Sony about how the PS3 is the best game system, but so far the only arguments we hear are that it's a Blu-Ray movie player, a Linux computer and now it's also a PVR. Mind you, if the american PS3 had a PVR to begin with, maybe it wouldn't seem too expensive.

Even as a non-Sony fanboy (I'm a Nintendo fanboy), I do wish Blu-Ray wins against HD-DVD, if only because this isn't a Sony-only attempt at pushing their own crap (Memory Stick, miniDisc, ATRAC, etc) but it's even better than HD-DVD in capacity (especially future potential capacity).

Re:So what is the PS3 again?

[_PimpDaddy7_]

Really? How about that BR region encoding???

No thanks, I'll take less capacity over region encoding ANY DAY..

Re:So what is the PS3 again?

[Yvan256]

We've had "region-encoding" (you meant "region code" I bet) on DVDs since the beginning. I'd rather not have such a silly thing prevent me from getting a dozen extra GBs on each disc for non-movie uses.

I'd also prefer higher bitrate movies over region codes any day, too.

What I do wish is that they would've thrown away all this interlaced and NTSC/PAL crap out of the window with the new formats.

Re:So what is the PS3 again?

[GreatDrok]

"What I do wish is that they would've thrown away all this interlaced and NTSC/PAL crap out of the window with the new formats."

Ummm, they did. Every HD DVD I have is 1080p. Sure, there are extras which are in SD and that can be either 480 or 576 line progressive or interlaced. My player converts it all to 1080i which is what I drive both HD TVs (an LCD panel and a DLP front projector.) Oh, and don't start whining about 1080i being all interlaced and that, it is a delivery system and has exactly the same number of pixels and exactly the same resolution as 1080p and for material which originates in 1080p the step to 1080i can be perfectly reversed by the deinterlacer in the display while you get the benefits that you can send a 1080i signal further without degradation than 1080p. For instance, 1080p of my 360 has significant ringing artefacts over a long cable (8m) but 1080i doesn't so 1080i looks better.

Meanwhile, I'm with the original poster. I didn't buy into DVD until it was possible to get a region free hack for a reasonable priced player since I tend to import a lot of movies. HD DVD doesn't need a hack so I am already building a nice collection and enjoying it. So far, BD is region locked so the prices are higher, the quality is no better regardless of the prospect of it being so (in fact most BDs are 25GB discs whereas all HD DVDs are 30GB dual layer) and BD has the dreaded BD+ DRM in addition to AACS and if someone does produce a region free hack, Sony will be agressively all over it just like when people chipped the PS2. No, it doesn't look like I'll be buying a Blu-ray player for a while yet and besides which, HD DVD now has wider industry support than Blu-ray (yay Paramount!)

And next week...

[downix]

Sony just keeps addng feature after feature. What's next, a coffee brewer to allow you to keep playing without getting up for your caffine fix?

Re:And next week...

[Anonymous Coward]

Dark Helmet: What's that bubbling noise coming from the PS3?
Colonel Sandurz: We call it... Mr. Coffee, sir! Would you like some?
Dark Helmet: Of course I do! I always like to drink Coffee when I play PS3!

Re:And next week...

[superstick58]

I think they need to add the Sony CD so that high quality sound and video can be played on the console. Then they can add the PS32X to increase the processing power. Then they can announce that game development for both accessories will halt in about a year after the release and you will be stuck for decades with a monster created of multiple esoteric parts and expansions that completely hide the original machine.

I'm going to go play some games on my Sega Genesis/32X/CD. Ah the simple days when a console was a console.

Re:And next week...

[PhoenixOne]

Coffee so you can keep playing...what?

Re:And next week...

[r_jensen11]

I thought the first wave of 360's already did this?

Why 1080p?

[clonmult]

Its a "nice to have" feature for sure, but even the quality of the broadcast image doesn't even slightly justify them putting 1080p in there.

Re:Why 1080p?

[dave420]

Because DVB-T can transmit 1080p and the PS3 can output 1080p?

Re:Why 1080p?

[tmarklund]

Yeah, if you want to have a total of one channel per multiplex, and make all existing HDTV set-top boxes obsolete.

Re:Why 1080p?

[Skapare]

How would 1080p make existing HDTV STBs obsolete? Didn't they get implemented with the full DVB spec? At least in the USA, TV tuners are required to support the full ATSC standard, which has 18 basic formats (and 18 more for the 1000:1001 frame rate versions).

Re:Why 1080p?

[tmarklund]

I was under the impression that the receivers didn't handle 1080p, since no receiver has ever claimed it in the specs.
However, when I now look at one of the specs for one set-top box, it says "MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 HP@L4" which would mean it could support 1920x1080 in 30 fps at max 25 Mbps if I read Wikipedia correctly. But it would output it in 1080i probably.
So probably I was wrong then.

US doesn't have real standard yet?

[amigabill]

While we've heard a lot about cablecards and cablecard2's and mcards, the Tivo-HD compatibility problems show that we in the USA don't have a good standard yet. It works in some places but not in others. Would Sony face the same problem? Are they just avoiding this fiasco until there's a better guarantee that their tuners will actually work for all buyers in America? How is it that Europe gets better defined standards to work with (GSM, DVB) to ensure compatibility while we in America are rolling the dice with cablecards without knowing if we have the switched video stuff or not that might prevent my cablecard device from working? Or that vastly reduces choice in what phones I can use on my cellphone network?

Re:US doesn't have real standard yet?

[iainl]

Don't worry, there is no agreed standard for HD broadcasting over the air in the UK yet, either. Much of the rest of Europe has decided on DVB-T, but over here we can't do that for fear of offending Rupert Murdoch, who is currently raking in as a monopoly supplier of HD broadcasting.

Right now, this is going to be a £200 twin-tuner PVR that only does standard-def. And you can buy those, standalone, with much larger hard-drives for that price without having to stop playing games to use it.

Re:US doesn't have real standard yet?

[Captain_Chaos]

How is it that Europe gets better defined standards to work with (GSM, DVB) to ensure compatibility while we in America are rolling the dice with cablecards without knowing if we have the switched video stuff or not that might prevent my cablecard device from working? Or that vastly reduces choice in what phones I can use on my cellphone network?

I'm actually really interested in whether anyone has some genuine insight into that, as I've often wondered the same thing myself. Why is it that the US, which is one country, apparently has so much more trouble to deploy some decent standards than Europe, which is a pretty loosely held together bunch of countries which couldn't be more different from each other?

Re:US doesn't have real standard yet?

[tmarklund]

Sure.
We may have DVB across most of Europe, but try to find a box which supports pay-tv all over Europe (except Dreambox perhaps, but they are not licensed). Many program distributors lock down the box to only work with their own network, even if there exists CI (Common Interface, kinda like Cablecard) modules that support the competitors encryption. I bet the PS3 won't handle pay-tv because of that.
Even freeview may not work in all countries because of small differences in transmissions.

Also we have the MPEG-2/H.264 debacle. Many countries started with only MPEG-2. Then HDTV came along and with that H.264. Now some countries which are about to start transmissions will use ONLY H.264 (e.g. Norway). Almost all tv:s with built in DVB-T are only capable of MPEG-2 though.

So it's not just Utopia over here all the time (although GSM was a Really Good Thing).

Re:US doesn't have real standard yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

American capitalism and corporate lobbying.

Re:US doesn't have real standard yet?

[dan the person]

Why is it that the US, which is one country, apparently has so much more trouble to deploy some decent standards than Europe, which is a pretty loosely held together bunch of countries which couldn't be more different from each other?

Because the EU isn't afraid to regulate when the market fails its citizens?

Re:US doesn't have real standard yet?

[riffzifnab]

Two words: Free Market

The US government abhors regulating standards like this, just look at our cell phone system. I like the free market and all that but it only really works when the consumers are actually informed (and not just told what to buy).

Re:US doesn't have real standard yet?

[mybecq]

http://www.cen.eu/cenorm/aboutus/index.asp. Because they know that if they don't standardise, they are just hurting themselves economically.

Re:US doesn't have real standard yet?

[Anonymous Coward]

The EU and the USA are kinda the same more so than you think. Both are a federal type system. The main differences is. You are learning the mistakes that we(USA) made hopefully. If you read the history books the USA is comprised of 50 states(technically what you consinder a country) The states lost no rights when entering the union. The problem that created most problems in usa is the problem of Federalism vs Statism rights. Most of what you see with Bush in today political spectrum is a evolution of this problems. The states won the war with britian but lost the war with themselves(north vs south; north = federalism south = statism) Today Bush is expanding this states vs federal war to the next platform and that is republic vs totalism. If you look at the progrssion of the USA you may say we are still fighting the loyalist that support the British crown vs the freemans supporting the freedom of man. But back on topic. When joining th USA you lose no sovernity under tech law. You give up little to no rights. This is under the ideal cititation of the law. So the USA is just like the EU in the fact that both are jst clubs to unionify different countries to bring more harmony bewtten the m and their people.

Re:US doesn't have real standard yet?

[Futselaar]

Because the EU isn't afraid to regulate when the market fails its citizens?

Actually, as far as I recall, European standardization was well under way before the EU played a role in it. Generally, I think being "one country" need not have much impact on standardization if the country is large and business is free. Hell, I live in Osaka, and we don't even have the same AC here as in Tokyo.

Completely off topic but...

[Yusaku Godai]

...is anyone having trouble with GMail this morning? It just keeps timing out (at least, over https which I have to use at work). I'd ask one of my friends, but they're all on Google Talk, heheh.

Anyways, in order to make this post slight ON topic:

Before anyone starts bitching about how stupid it is to add PVR functionality to what is supposedly a game system, just remember the PSX (not the be confused with the original PlayStation). It was a PS2/PVR released in Japan a few years ago that sold surprisingly well, in spite of being in the range of $600-$800. Now, why they're releasing this in Europe but not Japan I'm not sure, but I'm sure they've done their research and recognized the existence of a market.

I for one would rather keep my PVR separate from my game console. But on the other hand, I've been planning to build a MythTV box for a while, and it will also have MAME on it, so maybe it's not such a far-fetched idea for some people.

One more reason...

[alexhs]

... for MS to undermine Blue-Ray adoption...

Look at my precedent comment.

Now you don't need a STB in the last line.

Both companies struggle for the dominance in the living room. Except that MS is torn between its internal divisions: they get most of their money by licensing software to hardware companies and with the XBox also are a hardware company competing with their licensees... I wonder if they're not limiting themselves with the XBox to not lose these licensees...

it slices, it dices

[conspirator57]

it prepares food ten different ways! Don't forget, we just added the kitchen sink!

Seriously, though. I like having discrete devices because stuff breaks and I like to:
1. amortize the impact (cost, etc.) of a breakage by having less expensive components
2. get components that do fewer things, but do them better
3. have a DVD on while playing a game. PiP, you know.
and several other reasons i'm forgetting just now.

Re:it slices, it dices

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Seriously, though. I like having discrete devices because stuff breaks

Then you get an equipment rack like mine, which easily has ten devices in it.

How often does your stuff break? I know asking people to take care of their stuff or asking them to not buy garbage is hard. I couldn't convince my sister to NOT buy an APEX DVD player, she bought one and it died a year later, even with vent holes added to keep it cool. Maybe in the last ten years, I've had one of my AV components die on me.

Re:it slices, it dices

[conspirator57]

My statement there was a generalized truism. In practice i exercise a more complicated set of rules that govern my purchasing. I tend towards quality, but am budget-minded, which makes my feature specifications flexible. E.g. I have a 10 yr. old Nak receiver that cost me $300 which I feel absolutely no need to replace and which has lasted quite well. However, being a EE, I know there are so many subsystems with so many and varied failure vectors that my experience with the Nak is rare, despite their excellent reputation. I've repaired Nak tape decks, so yes, contrary to popular opinion, they will eventually break, even under proper care and use.

Generally, I am particularly cautious when a piece of gear has moving parts, magnetic media, or optics. Internal power supplies are also suspect, though unavoidable and less failure prone when smaller (less load) as they tend to be in devices that do fewer things. This last bit is especially a problem when, as in this case, the vendor throws in more capability without reanalyzing the power profile of the device, or worse: ignoring unfavorable results for the existing power supply in the supply chain in order to reduce costs.

Re:it slices, it dices

[Jeff DeMaagd]

There are always going to be a lot of potential failure points in any product, and stuff eventually does break, but I've not had things break very often, so the truism is more hypothetical than something that's necessary concern.

I also don't see the market for discrete devices as mutually exclusive of integrated devices. Just because integrated devices are made doesn't mean that discrete devices are going away. This is true, even cell phones. People seem to whine a lot that there aren't any that aren't just a phone, I think they just aren't looking because they are still available and fairly easy to find.

Re:it slices, it dices

[conspirator57]

it's not hypothetical, it's real, but you've been lucky. I hate to say it, but it's statistical. I prefer to minimize my exposure to statistical likelihood of failure while still obtaining the desired functionality from the system of components. So say for example Sony were to integrate the PS3 functionality into their DVD changer product. This would make a component that has a lot of moving parts, an optical system, and magnetic storage. This amplifies the probability of failure for that device versus the discrete devices. Further, Sony would want to charge more for the item, possibly more than the combined prices of the PS3 and the DVD changer by claiming the convenience was a desirable feature meriting the price increase.

Additionally, the new focus of most electronics companies like Sony and MS are on the post-sale revenue stream. Therefore their user interfaces are focused on steering users towards consumption of those services. Look at the XBOX 360 interface as an example. If a device I consider buying has so many features it is also increasingly likely that there will be functionality that I don't want at all and that the producer will have gummed up the UI with attempts to get me to use it and their follow-on services.

(Tangentially, I dislike statistics because they are overused and used in inappropriate circumstances. They are most useful when there is a lack of sufficient evidence to model the system directly, but people use them by default even if sufficient evidence was available or would have been available had an assumption that statistical methods are always superior not been made.)

Microsoft called they want their idea back

[InsaneGeek]

Using a game console as a viewing device and having a secondary device to act as a TV tuner/Media manager... sure sounds like Xbox + Windows Media Center to me. I thought the PS3 was supposed to be leading the whole media front rather than playing catchup/me-too. Granted I'm not a big fan of the WMC look and feel, but they've been doing it for years already so the PS3 should have had this from the start (heck WMC can do encrypted cable card capture, and send it the Xbox) rather than months later.

Re:Microsoft called they want their idea back

[fistfullast33l]

Sony already does this too - it's called LocationFree. So no, they didn't steal this idea from Microsoft.

Re:Microsoft called they want their idea back

[InsaneGeek]

Are you seriously trying to say Locationfree and Win Media Center are equivalent devices? Seriously???

Putting that asside, lets "assume" that they are equivalent, and ask the question: When was the first time locationfree talked to the PSP or PS3 compared to when the original Xbox talked with Media Center? Then lets compare when I was able capture a HDTV OTA signal with Media Center compared to Locationfree. Then compare when Media Center could capture digital cable signals from a digital QAM source comapred to LocationFree. Then compare when Media Center would act like a true DVR, compared to Locationfree. and so on and so on.

Sony watches what you watch

[HamsterRabies]

should change the title to what mine is.

Sony = Spyware anyways. Now they're going to track what I watch ???? I dont think so!!!!

Will this feature the same fair market value assessment that those idiots did when they intro'd PS3 to the marketplace?
Probably have a subscription fee, a warranty fee, a recorder fee, and add $450 to the price of the console.

Losing focus

[Flipao]

The PS3 is a games console first and a multimedia machine second. No matter how much they keep adding to it, it's not going to make any that much more attractive to gamers simply because the price tag is becoming even more prohibitive.

That's one of the main reasons they're lagging so far behind Nintendo, when a cheaper alternative works better, you're doing something wrong.

So.. Different SKU I assume?

[otis wildflower]

I thought Sony was afraid of having multiple SKUs..

(and maybe they should get around to finalizing the Bluray spec first?!)

Maybe Europe is different...

[wooden pickle]

Here, I have to use my cable box anyway. So, this would be an even more colossal waste of money than the PS3 already is, assuming of course that this new version costs more.

Re:Maybe Europe is different...

[Goth Biker Babe]

Here, in the UK, we have free terrestrial digital television [1]. I get about 30 channels of TV (DVB-T PAL resolution) and 40 of audio through my antenna. In a year or so analogue will be turned off so all new TVs come with digital receivers. There are also unencrypted free channels on satellite (DVB-S PAL and HD). I'm not sure how many right now but it must be nearing 100 odd [2]

So yes this isn't useful for premium services and pay per view where the broadcaster insists on a secure path but there is an awful lot of programming out there which is free and can be recorded.

[1] http://www.freeview.co.uk/home
[2] http://www.astra2d.com/freesat-epg.htm

Re:Maybe Europe is different...

[clonmult]

The analog switch off is scheduled for 2007 to 2012. You must be in one of the "lucky" areas.

Re:Maybe Europe is different...

[iainl]

He can recieve Freeview. That makes it a luckier area than mine; we've pretty much been told that it won't start working until after they've turned off the analogue signal, if at all.

Re:Maybe Europe is different...

[Goth Biker Babe]

He? Erm, I'm a she! The nick is hopefully a bit of a give-a-way.

Re:Maybe Europe is different...

[LordVader717]

Why not just use a Satellite antenna?

Re:Maybe Europe is different...

[iainl]

Do I feel foolish. Sorry...

In the UK you'll need a TV license

[giafly]

Sony has announced that they will add digital TV and DVR capabilities to the PS3 in Europe

The law requires everyone, including students, to be covered by a licence if they use any device to receive television programmes as they're being shown on TV. This includes any TV set, DVD or video recorder, digital box, PC, laptop or mobile phone - TV Licensing

I expect Slashdotters to reply along the lines of "but I won't use my PS3 to watch TV so I don't need a license". Tell it to the judge, guys, when you get prosecuted.

Re:In the UK you'll need a TV license

[91degrees]

Of course you will. It becomes a TV tuner. Why wouldn't you? Most people already have a licence so it hardly matters.

Re:In the UK you'll need a TV license

[Anonymous Coward]

While this may be a fair point to some, I doubt that there are many people around that connect their PS3 to a display device that didn't contain a TV tuner in the first place.

Re:In the UK you'll need a TV license

[lonely]

Yes, in the UK if you told that to the judge and they couldn't prove you were watching TV then you are okay. I owned a tv and video projector for some time before I finally caved and got a TV license. Until then I didn't watch TV. No problem.

Re:In the UK you'll need a TV license

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. You don't get to see a judge before the heavy legal threats begin. One of our guys was writing software to run on a TV, so we lent him a TV to develop it on. It was not tuned into any channels (he was using composite input from the development kit). The guys from the licensing agency came in (they visit every house that doesn't have a license) and did not accept his argument that it was not tuned into anything. Cue weeks of nasty legal letters and phone calls. You were just lucky they hadn't got to you yet.

Re:In the UK you'll need a TV license

[Sciros]

If you have a PS3 you *probably* have a TV to play it on. If you have a TV you need a TV license just the same whether or not you have a DVR hooked up to it.

Re:In the UK you'll need a TV license

[batkiwi]

You'll only need a TV License if you buy the tuner addon. If you buy the tuner addon you're pretty obviously using it for TV, aren't you?

Emacs!

[alph0ns3]

It seems like the PS3 is the new Emacs: It's a good all-around computer, the only thing missing is good games!

Re:Emacs!

[Anonymous Coward]

In point of fact, I just installed emacs on my PS3 2 days ago (vi installs by default with the yellow dog distribution).

So quite literally, yes, the PS3 IS the new emacs.

Re:Emacs!

[MikeBabcock]

Way to troll Slashdot, clap clap. Wanna go look up how many _good_ games were out for the 360 in the first 6-8 months after release? Okay, now do the same for the PS3. No, seriously, actually check. Some are ports, just like a lot of Xbox games are PC ports, and some are exclusives, you might want to look into that, they're actually good games.

Here's a clue -- Resistance is amazing, Motorstorm is a lot of fun, and Dark Kingdom was short but intense -- and those were launch titles.

In case you haven't been paying attention, its summer and almost nobody releases new games in the summer, they hold off until nearer the Christmas season for some reason. There are a lot of new games for the PS3 coming out this fall and winter, quite a few exclusives too.

How about everyone who keeps saying the PS3 has no games admit to how many they've played and go count the number available before they talk?

Re:Emacs!

[MikeBabcock]

Not to reply to myself or anything but "It seems like the PS3 is the new Emacs: It's a good all-around computer, the only thing missing is good games!" got moderated +5 Funny and my legitimate response got moderated as flamebait? Gotta love moderation. Sure, the original is funny, and also wrong, and also flamebait. My reply on the other hand simply points out how its wrong.

Well as I roll my eyes in disbelief I'll go back to playing _games_ that I've logged over 200 hours on since March on my PS3.

Can it record while you play online?

[LordZardoz]

While PVR functionality would be a nice added feature for the PS3, I have to wonder if it will be capable of recording a program while your playing a game or watching a DVD.

If it cannot record, than its utility as a recording device is much more limited. My current PVR will let me record the shows I like while I play a console title simply by virtue of being a separate piece of hardware. Otherwise, they would be better off trying to add some sort of background torrent streaming so it can download programs while idle.

END COMMUNICATION

Re:Can it record while you play online?

[Highroller]

In the U.S. there is the practical problem for competing with Tivo in the satellite receiver market. The folks on cable will never get any non-cable approved/third party recorder to work properly. Going to Europe makes sense from this standpoint.

This is a great feature

[DrXym]

Europe has a lot of terrestrial digital channels via DVB-T. This add-on for the PS3 is essentially a twin tuner that receives DVB-T and allows you to record and watch shows as well as getting listings. Not only that but it appears Sony are future proofing it by allowing it to receive H264 HD channels when they start to appear making it doubly appealing. I think this device will generate a lot of interest for the PS3 in Germany, France and the UK.

The one concern I have is how this plugs into the PS3. I assume the receiver plugs into a USB port, but does it require one port or two? Is one port sufficient for the data? I know PC USB tuners manage on one, but how will it cope with twin tuners and H264? Additionally the PS3 has USB ports on it's front side which might make this thing look a little kludgy when its plugged in.

Still, it's a welcome addition and about bloody time. Consoles are more than capable of acting as multi-media centres (not dumb streaming slaves to PCs), so it's nice to see Sony treating the PS3 like one.

Re:This is a great feature

[iainl]

I don't think it will generate a huge amount of interest here in the UK. We don't have any HD channels on Freeview, and won't be getting any, either, if Sky get their way with Ofcom.

If it's only doing standard def, then there are standalone boxes for that price with included hard drives bigger than the one in the PS3.

Re:This is a great feature

[Anonymous Coward]

each HD stream is 20 mbps or less. how many USB ports do you figure it needs ?

Re:This is a great feature

[DrXym]

I don't think it will generate a huge amount of interest here in the UK. We don't have any HD channels on Freeview, and won't be getting any, either, if Sky get their way with Ofcom. If it's only doing standard def, then there are standalone boxes for that price with included hard drives bigger than the one in the PS3.

I think the UK will get HD as the analogue stations are turned off. Sky is not in a strong position to complain about this. Besides, even an SD twin tuner costs something like £150. If you have a PS3 or are thinking of one, you might think that a (let's say) £70 widget for the PS3 that turns it into an upscaling PVR with future proofing is actually a good deal. Especially when the PS3 is also a music / video player as well as a kickass games console.

Re:This is a great feature

[clonmult]

Whilst H264/HD support is pretty cool, for the UK at least, decent coverage of such is about 4-5 years off.

If they live that long, Sony will probably have the PS4 Uberbox out on the market .....

Re:This is a great feature

[iainl]

If the widget was going to cost £70, that would be great. However, I've read it will be £150-£200, i.e. as much as a standalone PVR.

And yes, after chatting with Sky, Ofcom have refused to give Freeview any more bandwidth than they've already got, unless they go bid for it on the open market.

Dear Sony

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Sony,

While you're at it, please add an internet radio tuner, a la iTune's directory, so I can tune the thing to Soma.fm.

Thanks much,
The Internets

Re:Dear Sony

[CronoCloud]

Reply from Sony:

Dear Anonymous Coward;

Install Linux, use XMMS, Enjoy. Works on a Playstation 2 with a Linux kit installed too.

SCEfoo

Two 1080P Tuners?

[tji]

That's a misleading way of saying it has two digital tuners. 1080P is nonsense in that context, the tuners don't play any part in the decoding or display of the video. They just take the broadcast and convert it into a digital stream that the system saves to disk. Just like my HDHomeRun networked Tuners are "1080i or 720p tuners" because it grabs the broadcast and sends t to my MythTV box via UDP.

But, with the horsepower of the PS3, it could make a nice DVR. The cell processors can be utilized to decode the few 1080P H.264 channels available in Europe - or the much more common SD Widescreen channels.

Can it record TV programs to a network drive, or at least a USB drive?
It can transcode for use on the PSP.. that's a nice use of the Cell power. Can that be done for iPods, iPhones, or Laptop use too?

Of course, it won't ever do some of the things MythTV does, like commercial flagging/skipping..

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

So what's the market?

[Midnight Thunder]

I am seriously getting confused about what the PS3 is meant to be. So far it seems to be doing its best to be a jack of trades and still fairing worse than a PC for the cost. Options of what it is meant to be:
    - Game console
    - Blu ray player
    - PC (I believe it was suggested at some point)
    - TiVo

Now which one is it successful at being at? There is nothing worse than losing focus and at least with a PC you can do whatever you want with it.

Re:So what's the market?

[CronoCloud]

PC (I believe it was suggested at some point)

Suggested? It's a supported function of the thing, called Install OtherOS.

Now which one is it successful at being at? There is nothing worse than losing focus and at least with a PC you can do whatever you want with it.

It's not a zero sum game. Having Blu-Ray player functionality doesn't affect it's gaming stuff. (In fact games come on Blu-Ray) Being able to run Games doesn't mean you can't run Linux and do whatever you want.

Still Missing...

[pragma_x]

... CableCard support.

Seriously. If a game console can do DVR and Tuner stuff, then just add a CableCard slot and the days of the proprietary cable-co. box are numbered. Microsoft, are you listening?

Then again, if they can manage to get the price-point down a tad, maybe they can just make an OEM deal with Comcast or Cox, and be done with it. It would have to be better than the POS boxes they're using now.

Well thats me sold...

[MrACarter]

Im a UKer, I have a 360 and I love it, HOWEVER seen as Microsoft seem unwilling to add the video marketplace over here and seen as there is a complete lack of decent TIVO like systems in this country, I'm probably gonna loose my anti Sony bias (Long time Xbox and Nintendo fanboy) because at last a company has actually realised that Europe is quite a large market and bloody well given us something! Thank you Sony, you've just gained a customer.

Re:Well thats me sold...

[Anonymous Coward]

I realize that you're from the UK so I'll help by correcting your English.

The words you are looking for are "seeing" and "lose." If you don't understand or can't spell large words then please don't use them.

I'm sure Sony would love you as a customer nonetheless.

Thanks Very Much, Please Drive Through.

Re:Well thats me sold...

[Anonymous Coward]

You must have missed the E3 announcements this year.
Video marketplace in Canada and Europe by end of calendar.

Hoo yah! Finally a reason for the 120 GB HDD my wife will go for :-)

Just wait...

[DesertBlade]

Until the release the price point. Sure it may be worth it at $700-$00 but is it worth it at $1500? And I wouldn't be surrised if there was a monthly fee to use the feature. That is where the money is at, reaccuring fees.

"sony" -- Webstr explains

[maztuhblastah]

sony - v.

1. To anger one's customer base in a flagrant manner. Ex: "2KGames really Sonyed us with that SecuROM stuff."

2. To desperately seek relevance in a market in which your success is dwindling. Ex: "Did you hear that Sony's going to add a TV Tuner and DVR to the PS3?"
 

No burner?

[yuna49]

I didn't see any evidence that you'd be able to burn these programs to the Blu-Ray device, just store them on the PS3's hard drive. Are Blu-Ray burners godawful expensive, or is this just an aversion to letting people make hard copies of copyrighted materials?

It's amusing to see how Sony has jumped the fence since the Betamax days. Now that it's big into music and movies, it suddenly doesn't seem quite so aggressive about marketing devices that can duplicate copyrighted materials.

Company comparison

[Philotechnia]

Sony = style, but no content Microsoft = content, but no style Apple = the perfect fusion of style and content Personally, I'm holding back my hard earned dollars until the iGame comes to market...

Re:Company comparison

[GammaKitsune]

Try Nintendo. And don't hold your breath for an iGame. Even if it did come out, it would no doubt go the way of the N-Gage. Apple and gaming have never gotten along.

Re:Company comparison

[Philotechnia]

I'm not holding my breath. But with convergence being the latest buzzword in the industry, and as gaming devices and media continue to meld, it does seem to make a certain bit of sense. Who would have thought before the Xbox that Microsoft would become a major console player? As I recall, that decision was greeted with its fair share of derision and skepticism. And really, why did Microsoft get into the market? I think they saw this convergence coming, and wanted to make sure that they were a player. Apple might be smart to through their hat into the ring, especially with EA coming on board as an OS X developer...

iTV = PS3 minus the games. That formula reduces to iTV = PS3.

Re:Company comparison

[JamesRose]

Could you be more of an apple troll, how the hell can Apple be content and style? They don't have a product! They don't compete in that market in anyway shape or form. If you are talking about in general, then yoiu're still wrong, because sony doesn't lack copntent in it's other products, and microsoft deosn't lack style in some of it's other products.

Re:Company comparison

[Philotechnia]

Yeah, I probably could be more of an Apple troll... OMG iPhone!!!1!

Just speculatin', my friend. My observation (as I'm sitting here looking at a very stylized but average-performing Sony flat-screen monitor) is that Sony's products across the board emphasize a certain futurist aesthetic, and they rely on that to drive their products as much as the actual usefulness of the thing. Sony wants Apple's cool factor, but they can't quite get the actual implementation right. Some of Sony's products are better than others. In my opinion, they banked on this appeal to drive the PS3 as much as anything, and people are choosing function (availibility of games on the Xbox360, fun games on the Wii) over form (the PS3 is so cool! It's potential is unlimited!) in droves.

I'm a PS3 owner, by the way. I hope they succeed in driving strong sales through the holiday season - I don't want to see my small slice of investment go for nothing. I would be very excited if Apple jumped into the milleu, though. I think it's a logical extension of some of their other technologies. I doubt it will ever happen, personally.

By the way, did I mention iPhone? I have to go drool now...

Re:Company comparison

[Highroller]

Content? The Nintendo content is lacking, but they do have an excellent/trendy UI. I am not an XBOXer, but their online presence is highly regarded.

Re:Company comparison

[kris_golden]

My take on the 3: Sony = quality, some style, no content Microsoft = content, some style, no quality Apple = style, some quality, some content

Re:Company comparison

[edwdig]

Who would have thought before the Xbox that Microsoft would become a major console player? As I recall, that decision was greeted with its fair share of derision and skepticism.

Well, no one really expected MS to be perfectly happy losing $500 million every almost quarter for about 7 years now. Apparently that one profit making quarter when Halo 2 came out (and probably another when Halo 3 comes out) makes it all worthwhile to them.

additional features

[Floritard]

Not mentioned in TFA is another exciting new feature. A wireless bed pan with built in rumble! Experience full gluteal tactile feedback and fully immerse yourself in your gaming experience, defecating right along with your in-game avatar. Now the PS3 is the most amazing console ever.












For me to poop on!

Why Europe

[Neko_D]

Why does Europe always get all the good and bad ideas that sony has first?

Not quite there...

[encoderer]

Unfortunatley for us Americans, the sales tax story does not end with state sanctioned rates.

It's common for counties to tack on a percentage point or two to the state sanctioned amount.

Still not close to VAT levels, but it all adds up nonetheless.

no clear direction

[john_uy]

a suggestion to sony, add a keyboard, mouse and allow x86 programs to run, put in satellite fm tuner, audio amplifier, and mixer into the box among others to make it the center of the living room.

if i were a game developer, i would no longer develop for the ps3. by making the people spend time with the ps3 as a pvr than a game console, my potential sales will be lost.

i just see it as,
father: i want to watch the show i missed.
son: i want to play.
father: sorry you should have gotten a wii. haha!

Re:no clear direction

[Highroller]

An observation: The Wii has a shortage of games and isn't even a DVD player. It's good for getting gamers off their ass, but not exactly a breakthrough technologically except that its capture the spirit of the moment well and is riding high b/c of the excellent price point. I have a PS3 and think the 360 has done well for itself and want it to do well, just like the Wii, because competition is good for the consumer. Give us choices, not fanboy nonsense.

Re:no clear direction

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll give you that the wii has a shortage of games but the comment about it not being a dvd player? who the fuck cares? my socks dont have dvd player functionality either, but they sure do a good job of being socks.

What are you, psychic?

[BlackCobra43]

I can't your complete GUESS fo a post got modded "Insightful". You have on insight whatsoever on the mind of the poster, and only threw out your lameass generalization of the Anti-Sony mindset in a balatant attempt at Karma-whoring.

Just last night I was adding this myself-

[cadeon]

Has anyone else played with a MythTV backend recording to a uPnP share? I've started watching TV with my PS3 already. . .

US has more fanboys...?

[MasaMuneCyrus]

You forget that Europe is the place where the PSP has sold in record numbers.

Re:US has more fanboys...?

[miro f]

yet the PSP has sold more in America than Europe... and the DS has sold more in Europe than America (http://www.vgchartz.com)

Yes, but the US economy is about to collapse

[Overzeetop]

...under the weight of poor trading imbalances. That's got to count for something, right?

Linux/DSP Alternative PS3

[Doc Ruby]

What the PS3 needs is someone to port X/OpenGL and its (TV) graphics rendering libraries to the PS3's DSPs (SPEs). Then we can use any USB tuner and DVR SW we want under PS3 Linux. On a fast multimedia platform that's subsidized by Sony to be much cheaper for the performance and features.

Without depending on Sony not to lock us in with DRM or to snoop on us with spyware. If Sony can do it with their dedicated HW, the rest of us can do it with their opened HW and the open Linux platform.

Re:Linux/DSP Alternative PS3

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm about as anti-sony as they come, but if the xbmc devs declared the PS3 their new standard linux platform (ignoring the technical limitations that exist), I'd consider buying a ps3 tomorrow.

The tables have turned

[indil]

Welcome to the life of a Nintendo 64/GameCube fan. Now the tables have turned! Bwa ha ha! Suck it, Sony!

Re:The tables have turned

[Pojut]

The whole Gamecube thing REALLY frustrated me...I love that system, I love the way the games feel...unfortunately, there aren't that many of them (although, the games that are there are exceptional)

Okay, now I'll buy one.

[Zarf]

Really, I just needed some additional reason to buy it... games... something... I mean it's not like it's expensive or anything.

You're right

[Anonymous Coward]

However, there's a fundamental flaw in your post in that you're expecting Americans to be capable of doing any kind of math.

Didn't you know that VAT is a magical tax that increases and shrinks to ensure products in Europe are exactly the same price as in the US no matter what?

In all seriousness though, yes, the "BUT OMG VAT!!!!!11111" argument is getting kind of tiresome, it doesn't even come close to explaining the price difference. Some will also cite the logistics argument, but Europe for the most part has fantastic logistics aided by things like pretty damn good train systems for shifting goods around quickly, cheaply and en-masse.

Re:You're right

[serialdogma]

Your forgetting that companies reclaim the VAT they paid when the sell something; so the effective VAT at each stage is only charged on the additional value of the goods that happened at that stage, hence the name Value Added Tax.

That's a very unfair comparison

[Anonymous Coward]

Emacs has good games!

"which should dash any US hopes"

[Zhe Mappel]

Which could dash US sales, too.

When you're only now getting your box up from a lethargic start, you really take a gamble when you announce a far superior version on another continent. Apparently Sony sees no way to win the current console race without adding more functionality.

Well, ironically, that's also a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's not only the competition that this affects. I was close to pulling the trigger on a PS3, but Sony has given me another reason to wait. (Price and more games being the other reasons.)

As Master Po might say: Patience, feature grasshopper. :-)

Improved PS2 Play

[SoopahMan]

This is a major blunder by sony. Before this the PS3 seemed like a waste of money. Now, seeing how ready they are to screw their buyers, I'll never, ever consider it. The 5 or 10 people who actually bought a PS3 must feel had.

If they ever want to see this system have more success than the NeoGeo, which they're on target for, they need to release something that improves play in existing, strong PS2 titles - like instant save/load at any time in titles like Splinter Cell. A tessellation option to improve polygonal models in graphics. Anti-Aliasing.

Because right now, all they've got is the fact that PS2 was the best selling last-generation console. They need to get that market on board, or get out.

Isn't this redundant with sky HD/virgin media?

[rrdm2k]

In the UK, you can only get HD programmes off the Sky HD satellite service or the virgin media cable service. I don't have sky HD or Virgin media HD but I understand that you need a set top box for either service. These boxes already include two HD tuners and a 160Gb hard drive in each http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V+#Technical_specific ations, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05/17/skys_hd_bo x_review/.

I'm fairly sure you'd have to hook up one of these two boxes to a PS3 to allow it to record HD programmes. So why would you bother getting an add-on for the PS3 just to record TV when you get a cheaper DVR (than the original PS3) with a higher storage capacity just for subscribing to the service?

The only pro I can see is going to watch TV on your PSP whilst sitting on the toilet. But since DVRs can pause live TV long enough for any toilet break, isn't that also redundant?

As an American, can't really complain

[Guppy06]

So the Europeans get HDTV tuners and PVR capabilities, BFD. Mine actually plays PS2 games.