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Sweden's Vote on OOXML Invalidated
Groklaw Reader writes "Just days after Microsoft's attempt to buy the Swedish vote on OOXML came to light, SIS declared its own vote invalid. The post at Groklaw references a ComputerWorld article with revelations from Microsoft: 'Microsoft Corp. admitted Wednesday that an employee at its Swedish subsidiary offered monetary compensation to partners for voting in favor of the Office Open XML document format's approval as an ISO standard. Microsoft said the offer, when discovered, was quickly retracted and that its Sweden managers voluntarily notified the SIS, the national standards body. "We had a situation where an employee sent a communication via e-mail that was inconsistent with our corporate policy," said Tom Robertson, general manager for interoperability and standards at Microsoft. "That communication had no impact on the final vote." ...'"
other then eliminating a voter.
and that Microsoft partners aren't allowed to vote again - at least in Sweden.
Yep, but it is still kinda shameful that now they're trying to pretend it was a rogue employee *after* the story's long since hit the media, though.
Christian Engström, Former Member of the European Parliament 2009-2014 for The Pirate Party, Sweden
It seems to be the logical step. But how does this decision actually stand with current rules on the topic?
...
We might all oppose Microsofts methods of getting the "yes" vote, but as an IT geek working with protocols and OO encapsulation I would say this: Rules are rules! Protocols are protocols! If they are weak, fix them for the future. Don't whine about the past flaws in your protocols.
While Microsofts methods were perhaps immoral, they DID follow the protocol. Do we really want a situation where votes can be nullified in spite of the fact that they were obtained by following the rules? And could such practice be a disadvantage for F/OSS projects/standards/protocols in the future?
Just a thought
- Jesper
My security clearance is so high I have to kill myself if I remember I have it...
In other news tonight, the sun set in the west again, and the dark didn't follow along afterward. Climatological, astronomical, and biblical scholars are justifiably baffled.
Well, this is pretty straightforward. Microsoft trying to corrupt a standards body. I wonder how many times they have done this before, just a bit less blatantly so they didn't get caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
This sort of malfeasance should make all other industry organizations like the OSF be very reluctant to accept anything from Microsoft at face value (if they were so inclined).
Hopefully more people will realize how flat out EVIL that company is because of this.
Well it's good to know that, after I commit my first robbery, every robbery after that is no big deal.
The Swedish article at dn.se ( http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=678&a=686 933 ) mentions the voting being declared illegal because one participating person casted two votes. It's probably just a way for SIS to save face, but what if one of the no-parties called in declaring they cheated by holding both their hands up?
Just a thought...
Show of hands, who thought that MS would have come forward if the whole buying votes thing hadn't come to light? anyone?
I'm not surprised at this, MS or almost any corporation in the world would have done the same thing. Spend little money to sell a lot of product = profit.
This article (in swedish) http://computersweden.idg.se/2.2683/1.118680 says that the decision to invalidate the vote was because of one voter voting twice, not because of Microsofts actions regarding the vote. Sweden will probably not have time to do another round of voting, so it looks as they will abstain.
vote it'll come out that they were voting on Diebold voting machines furnished by ProClarity Corporation
load "$",8,1
"We had a situation where an employee sent a communication via e-mail that was inconsistent with our corporate policy"
Sorry we got caught, we'll try not to let it happen again.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
With all the hooplah surrounding this proprietary format, you'd think that by now people would realize that if something causes this much trouble, it's probably a really bad idea, and is only going to continue causing trouble.
Oh shit, we have an honest employee in Sweedland. Damage control, damage control!! Disavow our knowledge. Spin it so he's a rouge agent!! Cancel the checks we wrote. What, he voluntarily notified the SIS? Fuck, that's inconsistent with our corporate policy. We're fucked right. Put a pot of coffee on boys, it's a long night...
"We had a situation where an employee sent a communication via e-mail that was inconsistent with our corporate policy"
Said policy probably states that such communication should never happen over a traceable and archivable medium.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
If they are the moral successors of Al Capone, perhaps they can be tamed in the same way he first came unstuck?
Perhaps even more attention should be paid to their financial activities...
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
If the vote was really invalidated for those reasons, it was very nice of M$ to confess and blame their actions on yet another "junior" employee. It was also nice of them to not pay the tools who signed up on the day and voted for M$. The only thing consistent here is dishonesty and betrayal.
Sweden will probably not have time to do another round of voting, so it looks as they will abstain.
I hope not. Being able to scuttle an unfavorable vote one way is just as bad as another.
It is good to see the SIS is protecting it's integrity.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Once caught, we disavow all knowledge of the event, never heard of that guy, were in the bathroom when this all went down, our browser mistranslated the Swedish, MS exchange garbled the email, and clearly we had no intention to break any rule, if that is what happened which we maintain is not the case... I guess middle managers across Microsoft now know what happens when you step out on that limb. There goes initiative. Watch that elephant stagger now...
What's inconsistent with Microsoft's policy is getting caught doing this.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
> Considering the obviousness of it, I doubt forcing votes like that is a global policy.
You mean except for the irregularities reported in dozens of other countries, right? Check out the other Slashdot story about all the sudden rush of pro-MS voters.
But yeah, no smoking gun emails from those particular countries. Just a lot of latecomers, many Microsoft Certified Gold Partners in support of Microsoft.
Can we get an update to the Bill Gates Borg icon please? Ballmer is in charge now and we should respect that
This is clearly shown by the Google, "Do No Evil" corporate slogan. More a statement of the inability to perform evil due to the concentration gradient and general lack of evil available.
Deleted
"inconsistent with our corporate policy"
Yea normally Microsoft is the one demanding the money, not giving it.
Money is the root of all evil?
It just assumes that businesses have some standards of decency. Maybe most Swedish companies do (did).
If this vote was bought. What about all the previous ones? How much is the SIS worth?
The organisation has instantly lost all credibility.
Deleted
Now Microsoft's story is "a rogue employee who didn't affect anything".
All we need now is someone to come forward from another country with a "coincidentally" similar story.
I'd offer a cash reward for it, but that would influence the process. They'd just have to be satisfied with a world more free of Microsoft domination, maybe some more real innovation than the stagnation that the 80% Microsoft industry represents.
--
make install -not war
Bottom line:
Microsoft failed in it's attempt to buy a 'YES' vote from Sweden.
Microsoft successfully used it's money to turn Sweden's 'NO' vote into an 'ABSTAIN' vote.
Miles
How is buying votes inconsistent with Microsoft's normal mode of operations? They have been found guilty of so many transgressions that this is just another minor one - maybe *that* is what is inconsistent...
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
What's more alarming to me is that there is simply no way that OOXML is a rational standard, the voters clearly are not expert at it, nobody is backing it with an alternative implementation. I don't even believe an alternative implementation is really possible at this point, it's just not clear to me. Can you imagine how the internet wouldn't even exist if IETF standards were approached this way? It is very clear to me that the folks voting on this standard have not read it, it's 7000 pages, there simply isn't a way that they did. I don't want to out right just bash MS but they came late to the game and they simply have no track record of pushing for open standards, it's almost against their very nature. To ramrod this though will ultimately just undermine what it means for something to be "standard" and standards committee members should be aware of that, this won't make OOXML the standard so much as it will undermine the very concept of a standard for this technology. The fact that nobody on the committee is putting the brakes on to me indicates just how broken this comittee is and that the standard should be either dropped or restarted. If they aren't taking is seriously, then let's just kill the standard, I'd rather have none than a bullshit one.
Open document formats is something that is fairly important. I bet you'd have trouble dealing with a lot of common document formats from just 15 years ago. Anyone process Wordperfect 4.2 and 5 files? How about Wordstar? Multimate anyone? Sure you can probably find a way to important them and make them usable but what about in another 5 years? As we digitize more documents, right now, we're almost making sure that in 100 years this will be a dark spot in history because they won't be able to process what records may exist, if they can get them off of the media (if the media is even good) It's good for mankind to produce some well defined, open and sane standards, it's also pretty good for business, how many formats does Office currently try to support? How much does that cost? Imagine if Office 2015 only supported like 3. I don't know what kinds of numbers MS spends on it, I'm guessing millions of dollars a year just on supporting Office file formats though and I couldn't imagine it really impacting the use of Office, it's a fine piece of software. I really don't even care if it's properly documented OOXML instead of the OASIS/OO.org XML format, it just needs to be properly documented and that documentation needs to be vetted before a vote happens. Maybe that's what MS really wants but these committee members are representing corporate interests as well as national ones in some cases and I can't possibly see how they can justify the job they are doing. No standard is better than a really fucked up one.
how many times has this happened but people took the bribes? I mean, you only report the offer if you turned it down (obviously you can't accept it and report it or you look like a real douche). You occasionally hear about things like this happening, but that doesn't mean it only happens occasionally. Greed is a powerful force, and everyone has needs.
A general rule of software engineering is that specification is just as subject to bugs as design or implementation. I think the same should stand for legal situations.
We should not accept an error just because it didn't occur in design (standards) or implementation (enforcement of standards). This is why judges are allowed to overturn laws and the like. In this case the SIS may not have specified a specific method of cheating as invalid, but it's still invalid and we can see that clearly. Rather than say "oh well" and move on, we should strike the cheat attempt down, modify our specification, and then check that the design and implementation reflect the changes.
to send Ballmer to their zoo.
:-)
I can just imagine monkey boy sitting in the cage flinging his poo, and some furniture, at visitors.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
The documents were open to anyone who has the $50 or so it cost.
I was doing it in Smalltalk/V Win to parse all of the documents produced by our analysts, several thousand of them (and I just happened to generate COBOL record layouts and screen maps [, which turned out handy because I was able to automate the generation of WinRunner test scripts,] and validated the APIs before the coders got the specs.)
Saved a lot of tears all aroun and I couldn't have done it at all using Word.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
yeah, getting caught so quickly is definately against policy.
they didn't think it would happen until after it became a standard.
No... get out of here.
business is war..
And now they have moved into well known territory; Damage Control! It looks like they are doing a good job so far using a pawn for a fall guy.
The truth shall set you free!
Can anyone with some insight into the matter explain to me why microsoft is trying so badly to get OOXML accepted as a standard, and doesn't simply support ODF? Are there technical reasons (are Microsoft Office documents somehow easier to store in OOXML than ODF)? Political reasons (is Microsoft trying to control/corrupt an open standard, kinda like they did with Internet Explorer and HTML)? Cause in the end both formats try to be the exact same thing: An open standard to store documents. Why go through all the trouble?
... we declare the vote invalid and cash the money :)
It is true that these kinds of things don't exactly increase the respect for the standards organizations like SIS, but when looking at it from their side, I don't think that it's very easy to come up with something that they could have done to prevent it. After all, the companies that were hired to vote for Microsoft were still independent companies in their own right. I think it's hard to think of a reason why they should not have been allowed to vote.
...my bum is on the SWEEEEDISH the SWEEEEEEDISH!
At least they're fixing it. Sure, it'd be great if nothing had gone wrong to begin with, but things will and it's important to know that someone will do something about it, so I'll give Sweden some respect for that.
Meanwhile, something like 40 countries have just decided that they want "P" status in the ISO (i.e. to be able to vote). Most, if not all, of them have gotten stuffed to the gills with Microsoft Partners who joined recently.
So it's not just Sweden, and it remains to be seen whether these other countries will be able to do anything in time, or whether the ISO will get turned into a Microsoft puppet. Now *there* is a scary thought. No further standards without Microsoft's blessing? Ouch! I don't think they'll give up on the power they're gaining from this any time soon, not given how much money it must've cost to run a global campaign like this.
Alas, this is difficult to understand for us Brazilians.
After all, our voting was an honest "No" to lobbying.
Oh, well, Swedish girls are so hot and sexy, I suppose you can't have it all.
Note: sarcasm. People that err and correct their mistakes are more honest than those who didn't err.
No voting without being a member for a set amount of time, and no voting on issues presented before joining come to mind.
I just read Slashdot for the articles.
If I used random periods. Should i also? use random question marks)
From where I sit, Sweden is just as corrupt as Italy, France, and Germany. I suspect that it equals USA as well (of course that excludes the neocons party; then all of EU is better than the USians).
Overhere, it is called bribery.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Mork, I have been wondering where you went.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
If there were a drive to get through an ISO specification on ISO corruption (i.e. the recommended way to influence others to get the specification you want), would that also be corrupted? And if so, would the corruption follow the procedure in the specification?
Ask me about repetitive DNA
"sent a communication via e-mail that was inconsistent with our corporate policy"
How was it inconsistent? Did they forget to specify the dollar figure? Or was it not customized properly for each recipient? Didn't also include a threat to do a software audit of the recipients company if they don't reply within 10 minutes?
Hopefully the SIS will offer a refund to all the honest corporations who were falsely led to believe they could buy a vote.
Top that for horror Mr. Koontz.
There is no right to feel safe thru security vaudeville at the expense of everyone's freedom, privacy and tax money.
I can see it in Redmond now. The word of their carefully planned scheme got out and is now in the press around the world.
The only thing that Balmer can say is, "Chairs!! I Need More Chairs!!
Banjo - The more I know about Windoze, the more I love *nix
MS can work around the rules to subvert a vote (and get caught doing it) but yet the SIS got the vote invalidated on a technicality.
I love hearing people who call themselves "grey beards" crapping on about how they love paying the MS tax cause of "i have no idea about computers, but i can pretend really well" (or words to that affect) and dont understand why there are people out there who fight against them so hard. I guess if you dont understand why you shouldnt really be in IT in the first place...
....and is there any backwards compatibility with previous Office formats?Only if MS ever publishes the specifications for previous MS Office formats. As it stands even Ecma 376, which is marketed as being backward compatible, does not give any details regarding the old formats. One of the only conclusions possible there is that the claims are false.
And what does it matter anyway? Even MS doesn't use Ecma 376 in MS Office 2007, something rather close, but just so not Ecma 376.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Of course, when you and I apply for the same job, and I offer a bribe and I get the job, it's just business. Even if I'm less qualified. So when we go to the hospital or fly on an airplane or get pulled over by a cop we can be damn sure hat the person who is about to take our life in their hands might have skipped some of the work, but made up for it by having some extra cash.
What kind of idiot are you? Bribery is illegal for some very practical reasons, and if you can't figure that out you shouldn't be allowed out of the house unless you have adult supervision.
Sure, because Microsoft was totally surprised by the ECMA suggesting OOXML to become an ISO standard...
Don't even think of equalling business and war. In wars guns and mortars and other heavy artillery are used and people die. I see no such things in business.
This was *perfect* evidence of monopoly tactics.
As a matter of fact, the cancellation may not have an effect on the action. Even if you bring the goods back to the shop doesn't cancel out the fact that you stole them in the first place..
Hmm..
Insert
Wasn't a most important point not that a large list of problematic point would be sent to the central organisation in case of a No-vote? Well, MS missed the yes, but still doesn't suffer from the detriimental effects a No-vote would have had. The outrage will subdue, but the effect that the problematic points were not submitted will continue to have its effect.
Bert
That there weren't more than 50 voting entities there as far as I know. So how on earth do they manage to stuff up the count and not realize until later that somebody voted twice. That and the email from the Microsoft guy prompting the vote stacking. How incompetent were they? Who knew that Microsoft only hires the "best and brightest."
This kind of thing has been going on for years over here in Europe, so it's nothing new to us.
It typically occurs anually in an event known as "The Eurovision Song Contest", which has been a popular event here for the past three decades. The title here is quite missleading, although every country enters a song, and perfoms it during the contest, the songs actually have little or no connection to the voting that takes place afterwards.
Countries can attrubite points to all counties except themselves from a scale of 10 to 1. The entertainment value comes from the voting procdure its self. Typically Sweden will give Norway 10 points, Norway will give Sweden 10 points. The slavic nations do the same. Grease and Turkey never give each other points, the same releation ship between France and England. No one likes the germans, (the songs may have some small influence on this). And the UK contestants can usually be seen popping the chanpaign corks towards the end of the voting when Ireland awards them one point.
Things have got so bad recently that the contenst (traditionally featuring light entertianment artists) was won by a group of deth metal rockers from Finland who were dressed up as monsters.
Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated up.
Reduce, reuse, cycle
No voting without being a member for a set amount of time, and no voting on issues presented before joining come to mind.
I think that would make things worse because it would make it much harder for those opposing standards to play dirty while having little affect on those proposing them (since if you are proposing something you control approximately when it will be proposed and can therefore make sure your minions are in place for long enough before doing so).
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
This is a picture of Microsoft's representative taken during the voting:
http://nandri.com/blog/Lord%20Shiva%20(india).jpg
And the number of votes that M$ has bought when the email was sent must have proved sufficient to determine the final results.
Sooo, technically the email didn't affect the results. But that's only because the fix was already in place.
On a national scale, it depends on each country how they decided to do the voting process: from "there are not enough chairs in this room so you must stay outside" via "my wife is a lawyer and she says it's safe" to "sure you can come in on the last week, pay, and get to vote without us vetting whether you've even read the standard". It's almost as if national bureau members are real people who don't know how to react when a violent drunk suddenly shows up at the birthday party and starts pissing in the bowl of crisps :-)
I am not at all involved in any of this, but I'd be very angry if: I was a legit member of such a committee, wrestled through the 6000 pages for 5 months, carefully writing down my comments, and then it's all invalidated because Microsoft votes "yes", vetoing the other 5? members vote "no with comments", so according to dutch rules it's a "we're not in consensus so we'll have to officially shut up about it and tell ISO that we the dutch don't have anything to say about document production standards":
I couldn't find *ANYTHING* about it at first on www.nen.nl which is odd.. however just now I found a press release saying in extremely neutral terms that no consensus could be reached: Nederlandse standpunt bepaald over ratificatie norm 'Office Open XML file formats'On the other hand, there's a press release from one of the parties (who presumably voted "no with comments" because all parties except Microsoft did): isoc.nl statement which paints a much more negative picture.
I think the outcome "abstain without comments" is ridiculous for a highly industrialized country with a corresponding large production of documents. We don't want an immature document standard, thank you very much. We have a working standard already. Just use ODF, and if it needs to be expanded (e.g. to incorporate elements of Chinese UOF), then fine.
To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
You're mistaking Kali's boyfriend Shiva with her!
This is Kali-Microsoft: with those ehrm. "hip ornaments" depicting the various national bureaux that are now voting "abstain" (see? they've lost their "voice". very nice semiotics there.), and the body on the floor symbolizing the international standardization process being lightly danced upon.
Can we change the old Bill-gates-borg icon with this one, now? please?
To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Microsoft also bought the YES vote in Kenya by offering similar deals and filling the Kenya Bureau of Standards Technical commitee with its own people. Hopefully, it won't be enough for them to get ISO cetification.
You must be from Microsoft.
Re:That makes me wonder...
.... why there is such bias against MS on this site.
I am confident on saying no further comment is needed from me at this point, the facts speak for themselves.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.