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Retailer Refuses Hardware Repair Due To Linux
Tikka writes "Today I visited PC World (London, UK) because my 5-month-old laptop has developed a manufacturing fault: the hinge to the display has started to crack the plastic casing. Anyone in the know will know that this is due to the joint inside, and it means that in time the screen will separate from the keyboard. Repair was refused, because I have Gentoo Linux on my laptop, replacing the Windows Vista that was pre-installed. PC World said that installing Linux had voided my warranty and there is nothing they will do for me. I spoke to a manager, who said that he has been told to refuse any repairs if the operating system has been changed. I feel this has really gone against my statutory rights and I will do everything I can to fight it. I will review comments for your advice."
Are you absolutely sure Linux did not cause that crack to form? Think about it, the laptop was rated obviously Vista® capable... did you see anything on the case to indicate Linux capable?
I think the best thing to do would be to publish as broadly as you can the make and model of this laptop and its shortcomings, better to serve others to avoid this vendor.
They're not saying it caused it, they're just looking for an excuse not to pay to repair it. I make it clear to my retailers when I send my stuff in for repair, I'm not sending the hard drive in with it. Whenever I send it with the hard drive in, something bad happens like they wipe the thing.
Demented But Determined.
re-install windows and go back to them (or another outlet). It's as easy as this.
Everyones knows with Linux you've been bashing your laptops shell. Of course your hinge is messed up.
The poster must be leaving something out, like the big spoiler on the screen, neon lights, and the Type R sticker that he riced^Wmodded the laptop with.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
For those of us on the new side of the pond, it will be interesting to see how UK consumer protection laws compare with US consumer protection laws (such as they are). In the US, the consumer would have several options, including consulting the Better Business Bureau and also with the various state Attorneys General offices. Good luck!
Your first stop should be the local trading standards office.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
It shouldn't matter what operating system is installed. Many (most?) of the large retailers will tell you to expect your hard disk to be reformatted with a "Recovery Disk" when you send your computer in to be repaired. I doubt if they would even try to boot off a virgin customer disk do to liability and privacy issues. This is a case of warranties gone wrong and managers not having common sense to resolve issues outside (the warranty) box. My advice: take it up the chain of command, or threaten to sue them. That seems to get the ball rolling in my professional and personal experience.
Can we please start keeping all posts regarding kdawson in a single thread? That way he won't overload the server, while using the search function to troll for his name.
<voice=Shatner>KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKDAWSON!!!</voice>
The laptop was designed to be unusable, that's why it had Vista installed. If you can't use it, it won't break. By installing an operating system that could make use of the hardware, you subjected the laptop to use it was not designed to take and voided the warranty. If you read the EULA closely you'll see that any computer with Vista installed is not actually intended to be used.
#emerge display_hinge_2.0
The Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act is a US federal consumer protection law setting requirements for consumer product warranties. One key provision of the act is that a warranty cannot be voided by the use of "unapproved" or "aftermarket" parts, or by modification, unless it can be proven that the damage or failure was caused by that action. The legal burden of proof is on the manufacturer to demonstrate that the customer's actions caused the problem. The intent of this law was to prevent manufacturers from locking customers into using only their own consumables and replacement parts -- a practice that was popular at the time, with products ranging from vacuum cleaners (generic-brand bags void warranty) to cars (OEM replacements parts only, or the whole warranty is void). Many companies will still try to dishonor a warranty if a product has been modified, but this is clearly illegal and case law has upheld the consumer's right to modify products and use "unapproved" accessories and replacements time after time. Long story short -- in the US, you shove the laptop where the sun don't shine and threaten to sue (the American Way). In the UK? I don't know.
I am a geek attorney, but not your geek attorney unless you've already retained me. This is not legal advice.
While working tech support for an elementary school, I encountered a G3 iMac that wouldn't boot properly and "sad mac-d". I was able to get the error codes and it showed bad motherboard. I called up Apple tech support, explained the situation and gave the phone tech the codes I'd received and mentioned the symptoms I'd noticed. I was then asked what software we were running. The school happened to have an older version of Microsoft works or some such (this was over 8 years ago, forgive me if I'm foggy on the details) and, humoring the phone support tech, I mentioned the software. I was promptly informed that Microsoft Works was clearly causing the computer not to boot, Apple didn't support it, and not to call again with this problem. Figuring I wouldn't get anywhere with this guy, I hung up, called again, explained the problem to the new tech and Apple had a man on site in 48 hours to replace the motherboard. Unsurprisingly, the computer with the new motherboard worked fine with the old version of works - just like the 100+ other iMacs on the campus.
I assume the tech was simply lazy and was looking for a way out. Had to be pretty lazy to not want to fill out a simple form. He also could've been extremely stupid. But in any case, it's not unheard of, even from a company supposedly known for customer service like Apple.
When I was fixing laptops - Compaq in this case - we had many laptops come in with no HDD (security reasons) In any case we would test them with our own drives with test S/W on them.
Semper ubi sub ubi
I reckon you have an open and shut case [if you will excuse the pun]. Write a letter to PC World [make it registered delivery so you know it was received] pointing out that the laptop has a MECHANICAL defect and you require it to be fixed. Be sure to include when and where you bought it, COPY of receipt, the managers response and a picture if you can of the damage. The fact that you have changed the operating system is of no consequence as its a mechanical hinge. Make it polite but also point out that PC World has a reponsibility under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and they are in breach of that. If PC World say take it up with the manufacturer, ignore that, your sale contract is with PC World.
If PC World still refuse [and they probably will] then take them to the small claims court. As long as you have documentation, letters, dates and can prove that you have given them ample opportunity to resolve the matter there is a good chance the Judge will rule in your favour. Collecting your money after that can be a bit of a pain, but you will get it - they are not a 2bit operation after all.
See this link to the DTI, especially Q3 and Q10. Be polite but stick to your guns.
Unfortunately, DSG (the group that runs PC World) are the worst retailers here in the UK. Part of the reason is probably that their staff are too stupid to realise the OS makes no difference... they get their PC training off the back of a Cornflakes box.
They dont care about bad publicity that much because they drawf other retailers for electronics/PCs over here. Most people in the UK dont even realise that PC World, Dixons, Currys, Comet (and a few of the big mobile phone chains too) are all the same company.
You can try mentioning the Sales of Goods Act but I doubt it will help much. Their staff mostly works on comissions and are largely just walking salesmen that know nothing about what they sell unless its on the price/info little card next to the PC.
They threw me out of the local store once when I told someone about to buy some ram that they were charging 150% more than the PC shop 400 yards away.
I am a free slashdotter. I will not be modded, blogged, DRM'd, patented, podcasted or RFID'd. My life is my own.
You stuffed a damn penguin into the thing and you wonder why the hinge broke!?!?!
I scream. You scream. I assume that means we're both acquainted with the problem. We proceed.
They probably don't have a leg to stand on anyway. Unfair terms in a warranty are void under English law, and it's hard to see how a term in a warranty pertaining to software could have any fair bearing on design flaws.
To the OP: a good first stop is www.consumerdirect.gov.uk, a site run by the Office of Fair Trading that offers advice to "consumers". Their advice is extremely vague, but you can contact them with the details of your situation. But an encouraging word from this page:
Exclusion clauses
Some traders might try to escape their responsibilities under contracts by using exclusion clauses, for instance by saying that they accept no liability for loss or damage. If an exclusion clause is unfair it is legally void and cannot be used against you.
Generally, only a court can decide if a contract term is unfair. But any exclusion of liability, whether in a contract term or on a notice, is always void if it is used for the purpose of evading liability for death or personal injury caused by negligence. Also, a trader selling goods cannot exclude liability for a breach of your statutory rights - for instance by displaying a sign saying: 'no refunds given.' An attempt to do this is an offence.
Similar statements about services - for example: 'no responsibility for loss or damage to garments, however caused' on the back of a dry cleaning ticket - are not illegal. But such terms are not enforceable if a court finds them unfair.
There's another line saying they have "more information about Unfair terms in contracts", but the link doesn't work. Like I said, it's vague. I could wish for your sake that UK law had something half as useful as exists in my country. Cold comfort, I fear.
Sure linux would cause this kind of problem, since it would actually be able to work with linux you would be opening and closing the screen a whole lot more than if it had vista on it :P
Seriously though, call the manufacturer, they should be able to help you.
...
In the US, there is a common law that states any product must be fit for it's intended purpose and thus carries an implied warranty. I bought a computer from Fry's, 1 month store and 1 year manufacturer's warranty. It failed after 17 months. I asked them to fix it or replace it or give me my money back. They refused so I filed a claim in small claims court for all the costs involved. They called 30 minutes after the summons arrived and paid all costs. Fit for it's intended purpose means the product should last as long as any other like product - for computers that should be about 5 years.
It's "You're an arrogant clueless fool" ;)
You could burn a bunch of live cds ,sneak in while the help is touching each others bottoms 'round back and reboot all their boxen to live cds .Shout "Fix that morons!" as you leave.
Check back later to see if they really figured it out.
(Remember kids,recycling old live distro disks is fun when the jokes on them.I like to recycle at *est *uy because they really go into convulsions)
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Gentoo was so difficult to install that it forced him to hit the laptop in frustration, breaking the hinge. :)
"Ask Slashdot" (the correct section) article asking for legal advice? Check.
Stop asking Slashdot and start talking to lawyers when you have this kind of problem and think that your "statutory rights" have been violated. Slashdot is almost guaranteed to be the worst place to get advice on anything other than technology and technology careers. Up next: "Ask Slashdot: My left labium is swollen, do I have the clap?"
Not the worst place if someone here has had a similar experience. Considering that nearly everybody on this forum uses a computer, most on this forum use or have experience with Linux and most (ok, some) people here are willing to help others, this isn't a bad place to ask first rather then pay a lawyer.
If no such advice comes up (such as "read the 'Warrenty and repairs act of 1999'" or something akin) then go and talk to your lawyer. If that advice does show, he can walk back into the shop and say "According to the warrenty and repairs act of 1999 you are olbiged to fix this problem, or risk a lawsuit and possible termination of your right to sell future products". Apparently (I'm not in the UK) this is a large chain of stores, but the owner might just be a fanchisee. In that case, he can't afford to have the bad publicity of a lawsuit compared to the mere fixing of a hinge.
I would be very suprised if there isn't a law in place in the UK (I am fairly sure that this wouldn't legally happen is Australia) to protect the consumer against this.
I assume you must be a lawyer. A couple hours of a lawyer's time costs more than a brand new laptop.
I see no reason why normal people can't give each other advice that has to do with legal issues, even if the advice sometimes turns out to be "talk to a lawyer" (which, in this case, I think is an option, but certainly not a requirement). You really think every consumer complaint has to be handled by a "professional"?
For that matter, what if I have a squeaky door, can I just ask my handy friend for advice or do I have to hire a certified carpenter? Is there something so special about legal issues that a regular person can't do anything whatsoever, even on the simplest situaton, on their own?
Your attitude tends to either come from 1) people who want to keep everyone in the dark so as to protect their revenue stream or 2) gullible people who are fooled by people in category 1.
Hey look, they have Wii's in stock!
You have much to learn about slashdotting young grasshopper
I worked for Currys for eight years, and that manager is talking rubbish. We as a company won't resolves issues that stem from you changing your operating system, but for an actual hardware fault your warranty is still good. Please contact me.
Hi, just so you know, your problems with getting your laptop repaired are probably worse than you envisioned.
Please, DONT take any of this personally against YOU... it isnt. It's just what you will experience and why...
Here's why your problems may be worse:
The manufacturer's warranties do not cover broken plastics or hinges. If *you* think it is a manufacturing defect, that is usually quite irrelevant to the manufacturer (who is the one who needs to approve the in-warranty repair - and will NOT send the hinges or plastics to the repair center). (See note at bottom)
Now, I am NOT disputing that this may be a manufacturing defect - I'm advising you (from years worth of experience) what additional problems you will run into.
IF your machine is NOT an HP or Compaq, you can remove the drive and bring it someplace else for repair - explaining to them that you dont want to risk your data being lost/drive being formatted (which the vendors often do), and NOT mention Linux at all.
IF your machine IS an HP or Compaq, then you can TRY that method, BUT, HP/Compaq require service centers do a FULL diagnostic of the machine for ANY warranty work - which presents a problem if the drive is not installed. Sometimes, you will find a sympathetic service center manager who will take the machine in anyway and fudge the diag results, and send the machine to HP/Compaq with a note saying that the service center has the drive and all diags passed.
I truly think your battle will be related to the fact that plastics and hinges are not covered under warranty though. The way to TRY to combat that issue is to have documented proof that others with the SAME model are also experiencing such problems (hinge issues rarely occur to just one machine... the batch off that same assembly line will show such problems). If you can find sufficient proof that others with the same model have the same problem, then the service center manager can fight the manufacturer to try to get the plastics and hinges (which are quite expensive).
When you bring the machine back in, please keep in mind that the decision to repair the hinges and plastics is NOT up to the Service Center Manager - he does not approve the parts shipment - or the shipment of your machine to the manufacturer - the MANUFACTURER does... so be patient, and don't go off on him because the manufacturer says no - and give him as much info as you can find to help him fight their decision - BECAUSE, their decision is NO (and told to the service center managers long before you ever brought your machine in), and that NO stands except in two cases... (1) a service center manager that you have not pissed off to the point he wont fight it and/or have helped give enough proof it IS a defect, and (2) a class action lawsuit (or threat thereof) that forces a manufacturer to take the blame for it.
Keep in mind, until #2 occurs, you and the manufacturer are bound by that warranty - which states no plastics, no hinges covered - UNLESS the manufacturer is convinced it is a defect - which they won't be just because you think it is (no matter how right you are).
Robert
Former Tech Manager
CompUSA
StarTrekPhase2 - The Five Year Mission Continues!
For this and other reason I replaced the HDD in my laptop with another one before installing Linux. If it breaks I can swap HDDs again and avoid giving my personal data to the manufacturer and can avoid risking my installation at the same time. Sure, they will probably know I did swap disks, since the original one only has seome hours of sue time on it, but can they do anything about it? I doubt it very much.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
I clicked it and the idiots picked me out for a survey. I dont think it went well for them. :)
Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
Ahhh...PC World. Just last week I was in to purchase a throw away video card so I could install an OS onto a new build machine (the PCI-E graphics card kept hanging the install, but that's another story), and came across a "pre-owned" laptop some schmoo had purchased a month earlier, played with, lost the battery and cds for and was being sold for a very cheap price. Even with the cost of a replaced battery, was still a deal. After speaking to a sales guy (who let's face it, knew less about computers than some of the technphobes I work with)I was told that I would have to wait a bit as store policy said they had to image the disk so they could reset everything to factory standard. I told them straight up, I wasn't all that concerned about having Vista reset to factory standard as I was going to wipe everything when I got home and install Linux anyway. Oh well, we still have to do the back up and restore, company policy. An hour and a half later, I'm paying for my little splurge, and the sales guy is trying to flog me extra warranty cover...for a machine he knows I'm going to take home and "alter". It took me a good ten minutes to get him to stop trying. As if. In the end, screw the customer. It's all about how much they can make for how little effort.
Faith in Chaos
Let's disentangle the issue here. First the screen crack obviously did not have anything to do with the OS. Second is it reasonable for a company to specify in their warantee that the OS shall be the installed OS and no-other than what they designate? I think there is a reasonable case for the latter.
On cars, the computers keep the engines from over reving or running on too rich a mixture, both of which can damage the hardware. If you mod the software in your engine's computers you void the warrantee.
These days CPUs control the heat and power management in a computer. They control many other hardware issues. For example I had a computer one time that would constantly go to sleep and wake up every 30 seconds. The hard disk was spun up and down every 30 seconds, the power supply shut on and off every 30 seconds and it would do this all night long every night. I never noticed that during the day of course cause it was awake. It ate several hard drives, a fan, and a motherboard. It may or may not have been a software problem-- more likely the PMMU--but something like that could be in the software. Likewise the fan speed is software controlled. Sometimes voltages are too.
While Linux is not designed to destroy a computer, one can't expect every manufacturer to be aware of every flavor of linux or to know if it has the proper drivers and regulations. Someone who runs gentoo is exactly the kind of tweaker who might just try to disable thermal performance limiters.
I dont' see why they can't limit the OS of the computer to certain specifications that they will warantee.
Of course this has nothing to do with the specific problem--the screen crack. But stores to stay in bussinesses have to have policies that are simple and clear. If the manager is not authorized to make exceptions--and he's probably not qualified to do so-- then it's your tough luck perhaps. It's what comes of shopping at a discount store I think. Big corporate policies and limiting customers.
One reason I swithched to macs is that there's only one company to deal with. the store, the maker, and software and the service department are the same company. There's no arguments they can make about whose responsible and they don't make you talk to bangalore to get help.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
This is known to few people and resellers who might refuse to acknowledge it
The Directive applies to
The directive calls for a guarantee of at least 2 years for new goods (or longer if the Member State wishes) where the seller will undertake without extra charge to reimburse the price paid or to replace and/or repair consumer goods if they do not meet the specifications set out in the guarantee statement or relevant advertising.
The goods must
If a defect appears during the first six months following purchase the consumer will not have to prove the product was defective at the moment of delivery. The onus will be on the seller to prove the product was without defect. A consumer will have up to two months following the discovery of the fault to inform the seller. If a defect becomes apparent within the two, or one year, period depending on the type of goods, then the consumer has the right to choose a remedy using the following hierarchy. They can
- Demand repair or replacement within a reasonable time and without any significant inconvenience. (Free of charge repair refers to the necessary costs to bring the goods "back to conformity")
- If this is impossible, unproportionate or cannot be done within a reasonable time or without significant inconvenience then the consumer can demand a price reduction or can rescind the contract (though not if the defect is minor)
All these rights are free of charge to the customer.See also http://www.wak-tt.com/tt/2yearwarranty1.htm for a summary of the directive (the above is quoted from there).
My personal experience (with BT in this case) is that the various persons I had to talk to all referenced the companys warranty period of 1y to refuse me. I was finally forwarded to a last person who declared my router to be still under 1y guarantee (which it clearly wasn't - I was several months over, but still below 2y). My guess is that companies would rather not admit that they are really subject to this legislation.
You might need some patience - but the law is on your side. This is at least one good thing that the EU has done for us.
That may be so for a US outfit (thans for reminding me not to buy from CompUSA ;-) - this is not so in the UK although shops will pretend that to be the case.
:-).
:-).
The laptop is classified as "electrical goods" and it's actually so that legally he may have more rights than the warranty allows (and that he knows of). The law in the UK knows something called "mechantable quality" (based on reasonable product life expectancy) - if I buy a washing machine and it fails in 18 months while I have a warranty for 12 the retailer will STILL be required to repair the thing (not replace, though).
As batteries only have a life expectancy of about 1 year you won't be able to use that for battery problems, but a laptop can reasonably be expected to function more than 2 years and can otherwise be deemed "not of mechantable quality", the retail of such goods breaks the UK sales of goods act (AFAIK, IANAL and it's been a while since I had to throw bricks like this around
Few consumers know just how many rights they have, and the lack of decent enforcement has created a retailer culture of "getting away with it". Knowledge is a fine thing
Insert
It is difficult to imagine though why anyone who reads slashdot would buy a laptop from PC World in the first place.
Read the Trading standards advice for consumers. This advice is your statutory rights: conditions on the warranties do not apply. However, advice on general use may be taken into account. Read the advice for how that works.
Complain in writing, keeping copies of all correspondence. And complain quickly: for the first six months, the retailer has to prove it wasn't their fault.
Citizens' Advice Bureaux may also help.
PC World don't give a crap about publicity - they pull this all the time.. if you've ever watched consumer shows you'll see problems with their stuff showing up all the time (their favourite one is water damage is excluded.. so if you go in with *any* fault what do they find?? water damage!!).
They also know that 99% of customers do not know their rights under the sale of goods act and of the 1% that do half of those won't push it if they stonewall enough.
Favourite common - completely bogus - getout lines are:
"You have to contact the manufacturer" (It's up to the retailer to fix it)
"We don't accept returns on this item" (They must. It's the law)
"We only give a 14 day warranty" (You get 6 months for replacement/refund and retailer is liable for repairs for 6 years.
"Replacement only on production of a valid receipt" (It's illegal to demand this.)
"No refunds" (They *must* give refunds where applicable. Not credit notes or anything else).
Read http://www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/fact-sheets/page38311.html and memorise the major points.
Trading standards will usually kick them hard enough (they have the power to shut down the store, and do so in some cases) - but if they don't help then small claims are good for up to £5000. The store will lose (they always lose provided you're being reasonable) and will end up paying all the costs.