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Retailer Refuses Hardware Repair Due To Linux
Tikka writes "Today I visited PC World (London, UK) because my 5-month-old laptop has developed a manufacturing fault: the hinge to the display has started to crack the plastic casing. Anyone in the know will know that this is due to the joint inside, and it means that in time the screen will separate from the keyboard. Repair was refused, because I have Gentoo Linux on my laptop, replacing the Windows Vista that was pre-installed. PC World said that installing Linux had voided my warranty and there is nothing they will do for me. I spoke to a manager, who said that he has been told to refuse any repairs if the operating system has been changed. I feel this has really gone against my statutory rights and I will do everything I can to fight it. I will review comments for your advice."
Are you absolutely sure Linux did not cause that crack to form? Think about it, the laptop was rated obviously Vista® capable... did you see anything on the case to indicate Linux capable?
I think the best thing to do would be to publish as broadly as you can the make and model of this laptop and its shortcomings, better to serve others to avoid this vendor.
They're not saying it caused it, they're just looking for an excuse not to pay to repair it. I make it clear to my retailers when I send my stuff in for repair, I'm not sending the hard drive in with it. Whenever I send it with the hard drive in, something bad happens like they wipe the thing.
Demented But Determined.
re-install windows and go back to them (or another outlet). It's as easy as this.
Everyones knows with Linux you've been bashing your laptops shell. Of course your hinge is messed up.
The poster must be leaving something out, like the big spoiler on the screen, neon lights, and the Type R sticker that he riced^Wmodded the laptop with.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
For those of us on the new side of the pond, it will be interesting to see how UK consumer protection laws compare with US consumer protection laws (such as they are). In the US, the consumer would have several options, including consulting the Better Business Bureau and also with the various state Attorneys General offices. Good luck!
Your first stop should be the local trading standards office.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
What exactly does the warranty document state. If there's no clause about installing a different operating system, then the haven't got a leg to stand on.
It shouldn't matter what operating system is installed. Many (most?) of the large retailers will tell you to expect your hard disk to be reformatted with a "Recovery Disk" when you send your computer in to be repaired. I doubt if they would even try to boot off a virgin customer disk do to liability and privacy issues. This is a case of warranties gone wrong and managers not having common sense to resolve issues outside (the warranty) box. My advice: take it up the chain of command, or threaten to sue them. That seems to get the ball rolling in my professional and personal experience.
Can we please start keeping all posts regarding kdawson in a single thread? That way he won't overload the server, while using the search function to troll for his name.
<voice=Shatner>KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKDAWSON!!!</voice>
It can be a pain but assuming that you really want the hinge fixed and have backup up your data why not just blast your hard drive. Now take it back to the store and claim that the OS hosed itself and also ask them to fix the hinge at the same time. They will try to charge you to load Windoze again but just politely refuse and ask them to look into the cause of the OS "hosing" itself and then bring up the hinge fixing bit. If your are well organized it shouldn't take that long to rebuild the machine.
The laptop was designed to be unusable, that's why it had Vista installed. If you can't use it, it won't break. By installing an operating system that could make use of the hardware, you subjected the laptop to use it was not designed to take and voided the warranty. If you read the EULA closely you'll see that any computer with Vista installed is not actually intended to be used.
#emerge display_hinge_2.0
The Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act is a US federal consumer protection law setting requirements for consumer product warranties. One key provision of the act is that a warranty cannot be voided by the use of "unapproved" or "aftermarket" parts, or by modification, unless it can be proven that the damage or failure was caused by that action. The legal burden of proof is on the manufacturer to demonstrate that the customer's actions caused the problem. The intent of this law was to prevent manufacturers from locking customers into using only their own consumables and replacement parts -- a practice that was popular at the time, with products ranging from vacuum cleaners (generic-brand bags void warranty) to cars (OEM replacements parts only, or the whole warranty is void). Many companies will still try to dishonor a warranty if a product has been modified, but this is clearly illegal and case law has upheld the consumer's right to modify products and use "unapproved" accessories and replacements time after time. Long story short -- in the US, you shove the laptop where the sun don't shine and threaten to sue (the American Way). In the UK? I don't know.
I am a geek attorney, but not your geek attorney unless you've already retained me. This is not legal advice.
Just as worthless reply complaining about it? Check
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
While working tech support for an elementary school, I encountered a G3 iMac that wouldn't boot properly and "sad mac-d". I was able to get the error codes and it showed bad motherboard. I called up Apple tech support, explained the situation and gave the phone tech the codes I'd received and mentioned the symptoms I'd noticed. I was then asked what software we were running. The school happened to have an older version of Microsoft works or some such (this was over 8 years ago, forgive me if I'm foggy on the details) and, humoring the phone support tech, I mentioned the software. I was promptly informed that Microsoft Works was clearly causing the computer not to boot, Apple didn't support it, and not to call again with this problem. Figuring I wouldn't get anywhere with this guy, I hung up, called again, explained the problem to the new tech and Apple had a man on site in 48 hours to replace the motherboard. Unsurprisingly, the computer with the new motherboard worked fine with the old version of works - just like the 100+ other iMacs on the campus.
I assume the tech was simply lazy and was looking for a way out. Had to be pretty lazy to not want to fill out a simple form. He also could've been extremely stupid. But in any case, it's not unheard of, even from a company supposedly known for customer service like Apple.
When I was fixing laptops - Compaq in this case - we had many laptops come in with no HDD (security reasons) In any case we would test them with our own drives with test S/W on them.
Semper ubi sub ubi
I reckon you have an open and shut case [if you will excuse the pun]. Write a letter to PC World [make it registered delivery so you know it was received] pointing out that the laptop has a MECHANICAL defect and you require it to be fixed. Be sure to include when and where you bought it, COPY of receipt, the managers response and a picture if you can of the damage. The fact that you have changed the operating system is of no consequence as its a mechanical hinge. Make it polite but also point out that PC World has a reponsibility under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and they are in breach of that. If PC World say take it up with the manufacturer, ignore that, your sale contract is with PC World.
If PC World still refuse [and they probably will] then take them to the small claims court. As long as you have documentation, letters, dates and can prove that you have given them ample opportunity to resolve the matter there is a good chance the Judge will rule in your favour. Collecting your money after that can be a bit of a pain, but you will get it - they are not a 2bit operation after all.
See this link to the DTI, especially Q3 and Q10. Be polite but stick to your guns.
Should it not be slashdotted? http://www.pcworld.co.uk/
Unfortunately, DSG (the group that runs PC World) are the worst retailers here in the UK. Part of the reason is probably that their staff are too stupid to realise the OS makes no difference... they get their PC training off the back of a Cornflakes box.
They dont care about bad publicity that much because they drawf other retailers for electronics/PCs over here. Most people in the UK dont even realise that PC World, Dixons, Currys, Comet (and a few of the big mobile phone chains too) are all the same company.
You can try mentioning the Sales of Goods Act but I doubt it will help much. Their staff mostly works on comissions and are largely just walking salesmen that know nothing about what they sell unless its on the price/info little card next to the PC.
They threw me out of the local store once when I told someone about to buy some ram that they were charging 150% more than the PC shop 400 yards away.
I am a free slashdotter. I will not be modded, blogged, DRM'd, patented, podcasted or RFID'd. My life is my own.
You stuffed a damn penguin into the thing and you wonder why the hinge broke!?!?!
I scream. You scream. I assume that means we're both acquainted with the problem. We proceed.
Sure linux would cause this kind of problem, since it would actually be able to work with linux you would be opening and closing the screen a whole lot more than if it had vista on it :P
Seriously though, call the manufacturer, they should be able to help you.
...
In the US, there is a common law that states any product must be fit for it's intended purpose and thus carries an implied warranty. I bought a computer from Fry's, 1 month store and 1 year manufacturer's warranty. It failed after 17 months. I asked them to fix it or replace it or give me my money back. They refused so I filed a claim in small claims court for all the costs involved. They called 30 minutes after the summons arrived and paid all costs. Fit for it's intended purpose means the product should last as long as any other like product - for computers that should be about 5 years.
Altering a consumer item does not void the warranty unless it can be shown that the alteration caused the failure. It is the responsbility of the warranty issuer to prove it if indeed it is the consumer's fault. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act
Don't listen to the constant FUD that modding anything you buy voids the warranty. It doesn't. Manufacturers can say that it does, but it's a lie.
It's "You're an arrogant clueless fool" ;)
As someone who has worked in tech support for many years (and as such is pretty familiar with the BS that goes on in these companies), I do everything I can to make the product look just like it did when it came out of the box before I send/take it to tech support. I remove everything I've added, put back everything I took out, and I make sure the HDD has a clean install of whatever shipped with it.
You can make a very good case that this shouldn't be necessary, but if what you want is your product fixed in a timely manner, its the best course of action.
You could burn a bunch of live cds ,sneak in while the help is touching each others bottoms 'round back and reboot all their boxen to live cds .Shout "Fix that morons!" as you leave.
Check back later to see if they really figured it out.
(Remember kids,recycling old live distro disks is fun when the jokes on them.I like to recycle at *est *uy because they really go into convulsions)
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Gentoo was so difficult to install that it forced him to hit the laptop in frustration, breaking the hinge. :)
"Ask Slashdot" (the correct section) article asking for legal advice? Check.
Stop asking Slashdot and start talking to lawyers when you have this kind of problem and think that your "statutory rights" have been violated. Slashdot is almost guaranteed to be the worst place to get advice on anything other than technology and technology careers. Up next: "Ask Slashdot: My left labium is swollen, do I have the clap?"
Compiz says hi.
It's pretty, but it makes my laptop a campfire atop my nuts.
"You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
It's like the situation if you bought a new car and were not satisfied with the "new car" aroma.
You went down and got an air freshener to make it smell better. Then when your brakes broke they say it was the air freshener???
C'mon! You just removed the stink of "Vista" and put a decent OS. Not a darned thing to do with the hinge. That ought to help you get their unfair stipulation voided in your friendly local court!
ahem, this is a molehill. Let's clarify a few things while we give the benefit of the doubt to the service center, just for a moment. Did you purchase the laptop with this OS on it? Do you expect them to be experts on everything? No, they are experts at supporting what they sold you. Suppose during the course of the repair they decide to replace the display or even the system board. Would you rather they test it or just send it back to you with some screws missing and your HDD formatted. Better to back up the drive yourself, put windows back on and tell them you suspect problems with the drive - which would be true if you just put windows on it. No sense arguing with robots that are trained to do only one thing and only one way. Hope they fix it for you instead of saying you voided the warranty by treating your laptop like a frisbee. The main thing to remember is to play the system. The first tech you talk to is trained to help you as long as you let him, it doesn't cost him anything. If you force him outside his rulebook or comfort zone, the manager gets involved and defends the worker and you are SOL.
Comet is not, and never has been, part of DSG - they are, in fact, probably the biggest single dedicated electrical-store competitor to DSG in the UK...
Paranoia isn't an infectious condition, it's a way of life
Remove the disk drive and tell them the information is classified and highly sensitive.
Not the worst place if someone here has had a similar experience. Considering that nearly everybody on this forum uses a computer, most on this forum use or have experience with Linux and most (ok, some) people here are willing to help others, this isn't a bad place to ask first rather then pay a lawyer.
If no such advice comes up (such as "read the 'Warrenty and repairs act of 1999'" or something akin) then go and talk to your lawyer. If that advice does show, he can walk back into the shop and say "According to the warrenty and repairs act of 1999 you are olbiged to fix this problem, or risk a lawsuit and possible termination of your right to sell future products". Apparently (I'm not in the UK) this is a large chain of stores, but the owner might just be a fanchisee. In that case, he can't afford to have the bad publicity of a lawsuit compared to the mere fixing of a hinge.
I would be very suprised if there isn't a law in place in the UK (I am fairly sure that this wouldn't legally happen is Australia) to protect the consumer against this.
I assume you must be a lawyer. A couple hours of a lawyer's time costs more than a brand new laptop.
I see no reason why normal people can't give each other advice that has to do with legal issues, even if the advice sometimes turns out to be "talk to a lawyer" (which, in this case, I think is an option, but certainly not a requirement). You really think every consumer complaint has to be handled by a "professional"?
For that matter, what if I have a squeaky door, can I just ask my handy friend for advice or do I have to hire a certified carpenter? Is there something so special about legal issues that a regular person can't do anything whatsoever, even on the simplest situaton, on their own?
Your attitude tends to either come from 1) people who want to keep everyone in the dark so as to protect their revenue stream or 2) gullible people who are fooled by people in category 1.
Report the facts of the matter to his office. Printed letter form is usually best. Attach your contact info. Notify the shop that you've registered a complaint with the ombudsman's office and/or local trading standards whatchamacallit.
Sometimes the fear of getting a bad rep will set them straight. Other times, they'll decide to tough it out. In any case you're likely to end up having to pay for repairs yourself, even if you're right.
Of course it's:
# USE="hardened" emerge gfx-hardware/display-hinge
He didn't emerge it with the hardened flag the first time, which is why it broke. Duh.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
I worked for Currys for eight years, and that manager is talking rubbish. We as a company won't resolves issues that stem from you changing your operating system, but for an actual hardware fault your warranty is still good. Please contact me.
Call the tabloids.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Hi, just so you know, your problems with getting your laptop repaired are probably worse than you envisioned.
Please, DONT take any of this personally against YOU... it isnt. It's just what you will experience and why...
Here's why your problems may be worse:
The manufacturer's warranties do not cover broken plastics or hinges. If *you* think it is a manufacturing defect, that is usually quite irrelevant to the manufacturer (who is the one who needs to approve the in-warranty repair - and will NOT send the hinges or plastics to the repair center). (See note at bottom)
Now, I am NOT disputing that this may be a manufacturing defect - I'm advising you (from years worth of experience) what additional problems you will run into.
IF your machine is NOT an HP or Compaq, you can remove the drive and bring it someplace else for repair - explaining to them that you dont want to risk your data being lost/drive being formatted (which the vendors often do), and NOT mention Linux at all.
IF your machine IS an HP or Compaq, then you can TRY that method, BUT, HP/Compaq require service centers do a FULL diagnostic of the machine for ANY warranty work - which presents a problem if the drive is not installed. Sometimes, you will find a sympathetic service center manager who will take the machine in anyway and fudge the diag results, and send the machine to HP/Compaq with a note saying that the service center has the drive and all diags passed.
I truly think your battle will be related to the fact that plastics and hinges are not covered under warranty though. The way to TRY to combat that issue is to have documented proof that others with the SAME model are also experiencing such problems (hinge issues rarely occur to just one machine... the batch off that same assembly line will show such problems). If you can find sufficient proof that others with the same model have the same problem, then the service center manager can fight the manufacturer to try to get the plastics and hinges (which are quite expensive).
When you bring the machine back in, please keep in mind that the decision to repair the hinges and plastics is NOT up to the Service Center Manager - he does not approve the parts shipment - or the shipment of your machine to the manufacturer - the MANUFACTURER does... so be patient, and don't go off on him because the manufacturer says no - and give him as much info as you can find to help him fight their decision - BECAUSE, their decision is NO (and told to the service center managers long before you ever brought your machine in), and that NO stands except in two cases... (1) a service center manager that you have not pissed off to the point he wont fight it and/or have helped give enough proof it IS a defect, and (2) a class action lawsuit (or threat thereof) that forces a manufacturer to take the blame for it.
Keep in mind, until #2 occurs, you and the manufacturer are bound by that warranty - which states no plastics, no hinges covered - UNLESS the manufacturer is convinced it is a defect - which they won't be just because you think it is (no matter how right you are).
Robert
Former Tech Manager
CompUSA
StarTrekPhase2 - The Five Year Mission Continues!
For this and other reason I replaced the HDD in my laptop with another one before installing Linux. If it breaks I can swap HDDs again and avoid giving my personal data to the manufacturer and can avoid risking my installation at the same time. Sure, they will probably know I did swap disks, since the original one only has seome hours of sue time on it, but can they do anything about it? I doubt it very much.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Tha Sale of Goods Act is the answer to the story submitters problems. Even if the guarantee (which is a contract) does specify limitations that the submitter has transgressed the submitter still has their statutory rights.
It's reasonably self evident that if a hinge has cracked within 5 months then it wasn't as durable as one would reasonably expect and is therefore defective.
At the end of the day if the store doesn't come to the party it should be a rather easy victory in a small claims court.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
When you bend someone over and service a guy like that, its gay.
Unless of course its a girl getting serviced, and thats then being anal.
or a girl servicing a guy, and that being strapped.
or a girl servicing a girl, which is awesome.
There's nothing Intelligent about Intelligent Design.
Ding Ding, you are a winner. But seriously you ARE the winner.
/. article) you purchased a laptop from a retail store. in which DOES NOT manufacture the equipment, but does service the hardware, and occasional software restore. However in your case, you have a hardware related issue, that does not pertain to software. So the argument policy here is that the retail outlet is purposely denying a repair claim.
///this post was not previewed.
Most of the time when you encounter a need to repair a hardware defect, it is always better to send it in to the manufacture. Contact the manufacture to obtain a RMA number and most likely, have the manufacture send you the mailing box to send the laptop in. Now, while your in conversation with the manufacture, you can state that the HDD contains confidential information (lie about it, government blah blah... they can't ask questions, its 'government bs') so you are going to remove the accessable hard drive enclosure and keep its safe while you send in the laptop for repair. I've done this myself. With Acer, and Dell. Both times it was due to a hardware defect, and both times, neither argued over the issue.
However, in your case(Author of
(THIS IS STANDARD)
I've seen this with ratoshack, bad buy and curcuit city. (ex: customer brings in laptop, keyboard ALT key had popped off the keyboard base, and wont re hinge. However this customer purchased the EXTENDED warranty (extra $149.99) which covered hardware defects including keyboard replacements. Customer repair claim denied. "Cosmetic wear and tear is not covered in extended service plan warranty* When we took the issue up a few notches the claim was taken care of. However as an additional policy, *Any repair claims completed fulfills our service warranty agreements and closes the warranty account. (I shit you not) However when that action was noticed it sure as hell was not listed or noted by the sales associate selling you the extended warranty. now was it. However the web address you see on the brochure would then lead you to a NEW policy that was written (most likely a week after the warranty brochure was printed)
Point here for you is this. You need to force the issue with higher management. it does not fucking matter whether you have Linux, Unix, Windows 98, or even Windows 3.1 for all that matters. They cannot deny a warranty claim on a defective HARDWARE related issue. Software CANNOT cause a hinge to rub against the plastic because of a faulty screw/washer, or mount design. FUCK THEM retailing lying bastards as hard as you can, on this. I assure you, by the time you are done, you should have your laptop repaired, and a manager kissing your ass, for every purchase you make from that day forward.
Because HEY, thats all you want from a corporate retail chain. some respect and dignity because you shop at their place and give them your hard earned cash so you can feed the fat fucks that never work a day except in a office which most likely has a shower room attached.
"Don't Forget to Salt the Fries"
And everyone, please note, this is PC World, the store in the UK, not the magazine.
Email address: customer.services@pcworld.co.uk
Don't blame me -- I voted for Roslin.
You could just read the warranty itself to see if there is any mention of such a thing. If the policy ain't in the paperwork, then it really doesn't matter what the manager says.
Or you could just sue.
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
Ahhh...PC World. Just last week I was in to purchase a throw away video card so I could install an OS onto a new build machine (the PCI-E graphics card kept hanging the install, but that's another story), and came across a "pre-owned" laptop some schmoo had purchased a month earlier, played with, lost the battery and cds for and was being sold for a very cheap price. Even with the cost of a replaced battery, was still a deal. After speaking to a sales guy (who let's face it, knew less about computers than some of the technphobes I work with)I was told that I would have to wait a bit as store policy said they had to image the disk so they could reset everything to factory standard. I told them straight up, I wasn't all that concerned about having Vista reset to factory standard as I was going to wipe everything when I got home and install Linux anyway. Oh well, we still have to do the back up and restore, company policy. An hour and a half later, I'm paying for my little splurge, and the sales guy is trying to flog me extra warranty cover...for a machine he knows I'm going to take home and "alter". It took me a good ten minutes to get him to stop trying. As if. In the end, screw the customer. It's all about how much they can make for how little effort.
Faith in Chaos
Let's disentangle the issue here. First the screen crack obviously did not have anything to do with the OS. Second is it reasonable for a company to specify in their warantee that the OS shall be the installed OS and no-other than what they designate? I think there is a reasonable case for the latter.
On cars, the computers keep the engines from over reving or running on too rich a mixture, both of which can damage the hardware. If you mod the software in your engine's computers you void the warrantee.
These days CPUs control the heat and power management in a computer. They control many other hardware issues. For example I had a computer one time that would constantly go to sleep and wake up every 30 seconds. The hard disk was spun up and down every 30 seconds, the power supply shut on and off every 30 seconds and it would do this all night long every night. I never noticed that during the day of course cause it was awake. It ate several hard drives, a fan, and a motherboard. It may or may not have been a software problem-- more likely the PMMU--but something like that could be in the software. Likewise the fan speed is software controlled. Sometimes voltages are too.
While Linux is not designed to destroy a computer, one can't expect every manufacturer to be aware of every flavor of linux or to know if it has the proper drivers and regulations. Someone who runs gentoo is exactly the kind of tweaker who might just try to disable thermal performance limiters.
I dont' see why they can't limit the OS of the computer to certain specifications that they will warantee.
Of course this has nothing to do with the specific problem--the screen crack. But stores to stay in bussinesses have to have policies that are simple and clear. If the manager is not authorized to make exceptions--and he's probably not qualified to do so-- then it's your tough luck perhaps. It's what comes of shopping at a discount store I think. Big corporate policies and limiting customers.
One reason I swithched to macs is that there's only one company to deal with. the store, the maker, and software and the service department are the same company. There's no arguments they can make about whose responsible and they don't make you talk to bangalore to get help.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
This is known to few people and resellers who might refuse to acknowledge it
The Directive applies to
The directive calls for a guarantee of at least 2 years for new goods (or longer if the Member State wishes) where the seller will undertake without extra charge to reimburse the price paid or to replace and/or repair consumer goods if they do not meet the specifications set out in the guarantee statement or relevant advertising.
The goods must
If a defect appears during the first six months following purchase the consumer will not have to prove the product was defective at the moment of delivery. The onus will be on the seller to prove the product was without defect. A consumer will have up to two months following the discovery of the fault to inform the seller. If a defect becomes apparent within the two, or one year, period depending on the type of goods, then the consumer has the right to choose a remedy using the following hierarchy. They can
- Demand repair or replacement within a reasonable time and without any significant inconvenience. (Free of charge repair refers to the necessary costs to bring the goods "back to conformity")
- If this is impossible, unproportionate or cannot be done within a reasonable time or without significant inconvenience then the consumer can demand a price reduction or can rescind the contract (though not if the defect is minor)
All these rights are free of charge to the customer.See also http://www.wak-tt.com/tt/2yearwarranty1.htm for a summary of the directive (the above is quoted from there).
My personal experience (with BT in this case) is that the various persons I had to talk to all referenced the companys warranty period of 1y to refuse me. I was finally forwarded to a last person who declared my router to be still under 1y guarantee (which it clearly wasn't - I was several months over, but still below 2y). My guess is that companies would rather not admit that they are really subject to this legislation.
You might need some patience - but the law is on your side. This is at least one good thing that the EU has done for us.
Do you think they would notice the hard drive was missing if I used my WindowsVistaLiveDVD?
I'm currently waiting for an answer to a formal letter I've sent to ACER wrt a similar problem where one of the two machines I purchased on the very same day don't start anymore and beeps at POST time (looks like CPU or memory problem), after ten months of perfect working in dual boot. Their brain dead tech support was only able to read her decisional flowchart instead of being able to just think. It basically went : Her : "I can't do anything for you until you reinstall the original Windows XP". Me "the original Windows XP is still installed on this machine, but the machine doesn't even boot, so how do you want me to reinstall Windows XP ?". Her "I can't do anything for you until you reinstall the original Windows XP". Me : "Please could you just think a bit about it ?". Her "I can't do anything for you until you reinstall the original Windows XP". Me : "Could I speak to your manager please ?". Her "Good bye!". Me "Could you give me your name again please ?". Her "Good bye!". Problem for her : I had her name already...
Still waiting (one week and running)...
It would be better for them to directly use robots : this wouldn't change anything for consumers, and would be better for their bottom line.
Votez ecolo : Chiez dans l'urne !
That may be so for a US outfit (thans for reminding me not to buy from CompUSA ;-) - this is not so in the UK although shops will pretend that to be the case.
:-).
:-).
The laptop is classified as "electrical goods" and it's actually so that legally he may have more rights than the warranty allows (and that he knows of). The law in the UK knows something called "mechantable quality" (based on reasonable product life expectancy) - if I buy a washing machine and it fails in 18 months while I have a warranty for 12 the retailer will STILL be required to repair the thing (not replace, though).
As batteries only have a life expectancy of about 1 year you won't be able to use that for battery problems, but a laptop can reasonably be expected to function more than 2 years and can otherwise be deemed "not of mechantable quality", the retail of such goods breaks the UK sales of goods act (AFAIK, IANAL and it's been a while since I had to throw bricks like this around
Few consumers know just how many rights they have, and the lack of decent enforcement has created a retailer culture of "getting away with it". Knowledge is a fine thing
Insert
It is difficult to imagine though why anyone who reads slashdot would buy a laptop from PC World in the first place.
Read the Trading standards advice for consumers. This advice is your statutory rights: conditions on the warranties do not apply. However, advice on general use may be taken into account. Read the advice for how that works.
Complain in writing, keeping copies of all correspondence. And complain quickly: for the first six months, the retailer has to prove it wasn't their fault.
Citizens' Advice Bureaux may also help.
First of all you have loads of rights under the Sale of Goods Act in the UK. As this is slashdot ignore the Americans who cite CompuUSA and the American laws as they actually don't apply here.
I've taken people to court in the UK a couple of time (IANAL) and won each time. This was always a small claims court (Kennington, London) rather than the big expensive one.
It's not difficult but you need to do things correctly.
1) Go back to PC World and state your claim again to them verbally. Ask to speak to the manager and state why you think you have a claim against them. Ignore the rubbish that they have nothing to do with the sale, they are the company who sold you the computer, they are the people you have a contract with.
2) Make readable notes, ask for names of appropriate staff. Be polite.
3) Tell them that you are not happy with this and will be taking further action. You can prepare in advance a latter stating that you think the goods are not of merchantible quality as defined by the Sales of Goods Act and you wish to receive a refund. You have the option of either a refund or a repair. If you accept a repair you cannot get your money back at a later stage, so go for the full refund. In the letter allow them a reasonable time to provide a refund, 14 days is acceptable, 24 hours is not. State that unless you get a full refund you will take them to court under the Sales of Good Act.
4) Go home, write your notes up, make it clear and concise.
5) Either PC World pay up, job done or they don't answer or they refuse. If they don't answer, send them a reminder and copy this to the chief executive of PC World, who appears to be John Clare. Don't get stroppy, don't get cocky. Explain the situation in simple to understand terms. This is later evidence you will give to the magistrate. He or she may not be IT literate so don't get too technical. They appreciate concise information.
6) PC World turn you down again. So you have to hit the small claims court. Go to your local court and ask for a small claims form. I forget the details but Google-is-your-friend. Fill out the information on the form. This is where you state your case and attach copies of your evidence, so all the careful notes you've made and the copies of letters you've sent help. You did send them registered through Royal Mail so you have proof of receipt didn't you? It costs about £35-40. I've not done this for a couple of years so am not up to date.
7) Wait.
8) Either PC World pay up, offer you something or they go to court. They cannot ignore this letter, it is now a matter of law and for them to do so means you win.
9) if they go to court, this is your big day. You do not need a laywer or barrister to represent yourself. The magistrate is the only person you need to convince and in my experience they were very friendly and helpful. They do not look down on you defending yourself. Explain your case to them, do not use technical terms, explain that the case has broken due to a design default and let the other side explain why loading Linux causes a hinge to break. keep it simple and clear. Dress smartly, but be confident of your case. Don't make jokes, make copious notes (or pretend to to keep yourself busy).
10) The magistrate will make a judgement there and then. If he/she says yes you're home and dry, if not then lifes a bitch and then you die. I've done three and won three.
11) if you win, PC World will pay up. If they don't you get the fantastic (and I mean that) of sending the bailiffs in. This means that you could probably get them to march into a store, section part of it off and say that this stock is now being held due to default of payment. This happened a few months ago in Tescos wher the bailiffs sectioned off the drink section and claimed it in default of a payment. £60,000 of booze held for a couple of thousand pounds fine. Tesco's paid on the spot. I know a few bailiffs and they are all nutters and hard cases and love this sort of grand standing.
Assuming that the cracking was due to durability issues rather than dropping the laptop, PC World do not have a leg to stand on.
In the UK (where the PC World in question is located), your statutory consumer rights will trump any nonsense that PC World may include in their 'warranty policy'.
It's really simple:
Section 14(2) of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 imposes a statutory implied warranty that goods sold in the course of a business are of 'satisfactory quality'. This expressly includes issues of durability.
Section 6 of the Unfair Contract Terms Act states that when dealing with a consumer, liability arising from a breach of the s. 14 implied warranty cannot be excluded or restricted by reference to any contract term.
I'd suggest you put that in writing and ask the PC World manager to confirm within 7 days that it will comply with its statutory obligations and repair or replace the laptop noting that you will: (a) instruct your solicitor; and (b) take the matter up with the local Trading Standards office if the company does not respond.
Yes IAAL and yes I dislike PC World intensely for precisely this kind of crap. Give them hell from me.
"The sum of all knowledge does not imply the knowledge of all sums" Kurt Gödel (paraphrased)
I agree with the above poster. There's two things I'd add.
Firstly, right now, the important thing is to keep a record of absolutely everything - dates/times of conversations, what was said, who you talked to etc. You'll need it.
Secondly, after you've exhausted the other options (writing to PC World, trading standards) then don't be afraid of using the small claims court. It's very easy: no lawyer is required, the fee is only £50 (which PC World will pay if you win) and the paperwork is minimal. I'd guess that in 99% of cases the company will pay up before it actually gets as far as court. In my case my old landlady returned our deposit (plus the £50) the day after I'd filed in court!
I will add to that - if you cannot get the statement from them in writing - record it. Tell them why you are recording and tell them that if they refuse it to be recorded you would put the refusal on record as well. It is usually enough to put a recorder on the table to bring some sanity in the game.
The only store where this does not work in the UK is Tesco. The rumour is that their managers are trained to push the case all the way to trading standards in the hope that the consumer drops it on the way.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
Don't put up with it. They sold you a product, it's failed. Get them to replace/repair and KNOW YOUR RIGHTS.
I don't get, and never have gotten, why one of the first things a manufacturer doing warranty work does isn't to pull your drive out and pop in a standard one. Boot the standard drive with diagnostics and repair any hardware issues. If the problem persists, the vendor can then connect the owner's drive to a diagnostic bench and know if the drive if physically intact. At this point, no customer data has been altered because at no time has the machine mounted the existing file system.
Both of these steps are simple and linear, they don't require great diagnostic skill or time. If the machine passes both tests, the manufacturer can contact the consumer and offer to either re-image the drive as it was when new for a small fee, attempt to repair the software configuration at a much much higher fee, or return the unit for the consumer to find a local specialist to recover the data.
As a standard practice, this would seem to me to limit repair time and cost, limit damage to consumer data when not necessary, and generally make more people happy more of the time.
The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
PC World don't give a crap about publicity - they pull this all the time.. if you've ever watched consumer shows you'll see problems with their stuff showing up all the time (their favourite one is water damage is excluded.. so if you go in with *any* fault what do they find?? water damage!!).
They also know that 99% of customers do not know their rights under the sale of goods act and of the 1% that do half of those won't push it if they stonewall enough.
Favourite common - completely bogus - getout lines are:
"You have to contact the manufacturer" (It's up to the retailer to fix it)
"We don't accept returns on this item" (They must. It's the law)
"We only give a 14 day warranty" (You get 6 months for replacement/refund and retailer is liable for repairs for 6 years.
"Replacement only on production of a valid receipt" (It's illegal to demand this.)
"No refunds" (They *must* give refunds where applicable. Not credit notes or anything else).
Read http://www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/fact-sheets/page38311.html and memorise the major points.
Trading standards will usually kick them hard enough (they have the power to shut down the store, and do so in some cases) - but if they don't help then small claims are good for up to £5000. The store will lose (they always lose provided you're being reasonable) and will end up paying all the costs.
Are we all sure that the request wasn't that the end user wanted to keep his linux install intact? If so, then I can understand that they will not accept a repair and still promise to return all data intact since they might just want to swap out systems. If the request was not to leave Linux intact, then they should honor the repair.
www.wildpad.com
Step 1: Call the manufacturer and explain the issue. Omit the fact that you have Linux on the system. It's irrelevant to the fact that you have a physical component defect that needs to be repaired. Should they ask about the OS, LIE! Step 2: Create an image of your system, using Ghost or some other clone utility. All workorders, even when no work is being done on the HDD have a limitation of liability clause concerning lost data. All it takes is for a tech who has pulled the system apart to replace the part to accidentally put the hard drive on a disk eraser or large magnet. Step 3: Reload the original OS using the restore CD, or do a quick and dirty install of Vista. It'll only be on there long enough for you to receive your laptop back. Step 4: Bring it in for repair. Step 5: Call the manufacturer and ask them about how the warranty is affected by the install or update of an OS other than what was on the system. I'll bet they have no problem with it. Then explain to them the experience you had with their warranty service location. Step 6: Pick up your laptop and let the service provider know that you've filed a complaint with the manufacturer. Step 7: Re-load your backed up image to the system and enjoy! I've done this a few times. It seems to be a problem when the service facility has no knowledge of or confidence in touching a Linux installed system. Never has it had anything to do with "policy" or "warranty".
hit them with the sale of goods act. goods have to be satisfactory quality and fit for the purpose they were sold sold. You don't *need* a receipt either (though it does help quite a bit).
A PC world warranty is in addition to your statutory rights, not a replacement for. A laptop that is broken after 5months is not of satisfactory quality.
Ask store manager again, pointing out his duties under sale of goods act - do not listen if he tries to get you to take it up with manafacturer - the contract is between you and the store. Feel free to take notebook / dictaphone to recored his words.
if they refuse to repair or replace, write to the registered office, insisting on repair or replacement within 14 cal. days, send it recorded delivery. If no response, send another recorded letter headed "LETTER BEFORE ACTION" threatening legal action in cal 14 days if they do not repair or replace. Ideal person to send it to is company secretary.
if no reply, google "money claim online" for the online small claims track of the county courts (form N1 is the one you need). It'll cost you a few quid to serve the papers, but you will get it all back when you win at the County Court. Plus statutory interest at 8% pa (non-compounded) under the county courts act.
Also remember to claim for you time/costs - around £10/ hour is reasonable. They will almost certainly play ball on receipt of the court papers - it costs them far more to contest a case than it does to give you a new laptop. district judges are sympathetic to claimants in person dealing with large companies. As long as you have shown reasonable behaviour throught you will be just fine.
court process slightly different in Scotland (and NI?) but general principles the same.
It may seem like this is an overly agressive method, it will get you the result you want and is quite empowering to take on a multinational and win.
good luck.
echo $SIGNATURE
1. Backup your current Linux OS
2. Re-install Windows Vista
3. Return to PC World with your computer
4. Pick up fixed computer
5. Remove Windows Vista and re-install Linux
6. Surf for porn
Don't shop any place where they actively look for reasons to refuse service.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Its not 6 years for repairs. They typically give 1 year warranty, though I believe the European Commission (which has a higher legal status than our own country) sets the warranty period for electronic goods at 2 years.
There are plenty of other get out clauses. "Mis-use" is a great one - because if you were using right, it wouldn't have been broken, right ?