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Journalist Test Drives The Pain Ray Gun
Fantastic Lad writes to tell us that journalist Michael Hanlon recently got the opportunity to experience the Army's new not-so-secret weapon, dubbed "Silent Guardian". The Silent Guardian is essentially (even though the creators prefer you not refer to it as such) a ray gun, emitting a focused beam of radiation similar to your microwave tuned to a specific frequency to stimulate human nerve endings. "It can throw a wave of agony nearly half a mile. Because the beam penetrates skin only to a depth of 1/64th of an inch, it cannot, says Raytheon, cause visible, permanent injury. But anyone in the beam's path will feel, over their entire body, the agonizing sensation I've just felt on my fingertip. The prospect doesn't bear thinking about. "
Arr! This be a popular thing to consider against terrorists, insurgents and other bilge, but what of when a swab asks Sen. Kerry one too many questions?
"Blow me down, Senator, but why did ye let the scallywag take Ohio uncontested?"
"Belay the questioning, ye poxy bilge-bellied picaroon!"
*FFFNNZZZZZOOWWNT*
"Yaaaarrr!"
Sounds funny, do ye think? But by Davy Jone's locker, it doesn't bode us at all well when bloomin' cops be using it on the populace for crowd control or to force lubbers to obey their commands.
"Arr, get out of the vehicle and make way for boardin', swabbie!"
"Aye, but what of me constitutional rights against unreasonable looting and pillaging?"
*FFFNNZZZZZOOWWNT*
"Yaaaarrr!"
Aye a sobering thought. And will yer video camera help ye then? And what of the other wrong people layin' their mitts on this terrible new technology by way of the interweb -- ye don't like how a match is going? Give the swab in goal an itch he'd claw out with his own hook for just a second for the ball to pass into the net. Aye. People already are misusing lasers, what of these? No visible injury, sounds perfect for torture.
What next, use this on pirates? Well I'll be scuppered!
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
John Titor predicted that the reason for the development of such weapons was for use against the general population of the United States.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
In a world where the Taser is no longer considered a self defense weapon, but rather an enforcement/compliance tool, I am frightened to think what will happen when this technology makes its way out of the military sector. Every tough guy cop with a chip on his shoulder will have the power to cause limitless pain, and could justify it by saying "it causes no injury, and it prevents potential harm to innocents".
There is something wrong when the general population begins to fear the police, and I think that is starting to happen in the United States.
I mean, even if you could get it mounted on a frikkin shark, they wouldn't survive long enough out of water for it to be used for crowd control.
So, exactly how hard is to to wear some clothing over your whole body that will block this non-penetrating radiation?
...oh the pain.
Didn't Frank Herbert describe something just like this in Dune? Pain through nerve induction?
12:50 - press return.
Any amount for violence, little for making relationships.
The least sophisticated way of relating to other people is through violence.
Excuse me while I don my tin foil full body suit
I wish to remain anomalous
I wonder if this will be the next iteration of the Taser problem, specifically, the fact that it leaves no marks and is designed not to permanently injure ends up lowering the threshold for using it.
With a gun, a trained operator understands that the person he's shooting at will probably die, so everything better be absolutely correct before employing it or he's going to jail.
With a Tazer, the trained operator will use it more casually than a gun because the price of being wrong is so much lower.
With the pain ray, it's even lower. Our current legal environment suggests that this will end up being used to break up unpopular demonstrations or groupings even more casually than tear gas, specifically because the physical evidence and chance of permanent injury is so much lower.
What effect will this have on the democratic process? Used in conjunction with modern artifacts like "designated free speech zones", this could be crippling. There's no way to prevent an advance, our duty as citizens is to be aware of the dangers and be ready to speak out against them if they transpire.
If journalists are writing about it now, the USA has been using it on huma--sorry, I meant "terrorist"--test subjects for some time.
We all know that heat coagulates protein. Just boil an egg. 1/64" of an inch of intense heating is enough to cook your cornea. Instant cataract. Out of all this "testing" with screaming "volunteers" I haven't really seen any conclusive evidence come forth that this wont do eye injury to a person. And we all know how "non-letal" (read "less than lethal") weapons get overused.
-dh
Secret deals for largely secret projects costing largely secret amounts, and the taxpayer pays everything, blindly, or goes to jail. It's effectively a dictatorship of the Military-Industrial Complex, as President Eisenhower warned.
The operator was heard saying: "What did this do to you? Tell me. And remember, this is for posterity, so be honest. How do you feel?"
No, the table-top demonstration model is the one that's intended for use in the field. For values of "field" ranging towards "dark basements in former Soviet bloc countries, to whom we've paid good money for plausible deniability".
Unless the "production" model is composed of an array of those table-top demonstration models (and to give Raytheon the benefit of the doubt, it might be), there are very few military applications to even try to scale the device down to "trade-show booth" form factor.
Either way, I'm glad I'm long Raytheon. From WW2-era radar stations, to the microwave oven, to new and emerging markets including crowd control and individual torture, manipulation of RF energy has been a consistent profit generator.
I would like to take a moment to applaud this new direction the US Army has taken as of late. Nothing restores my faith in American more quickly than a standing policy of systematically punishing every journalist within reach, with any and all exotic weaponry available.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
These would be a great accessory for a John Kerry speech.
Corrupt lobby to pass law declaring it illegal to wear metallic micro-wave reflecting clothes in
Common, they already made it illegal to wear a gaz-mask during manifestations in some countries. What do you expect ?
{Insert your favorite "if-you-have-nothing-to-hide-you-have-no-reason-to-wear-one" excuse hehe}
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
It seems to me that they were created in one.
it says "it cannot, says Raytheon, cause visible, permanent injury."
That seems an awfully calculated thing to say... so that means they have found it to cause INVISIBLE permanent injury then?
Coincidentally, it was Raytheon who invented the microwave oven. They sold commercial products under the Amana brand.
The thing is, this wave in tuned to a frequency targeting nerve endings - so it might well not be nearly powerful enough to boil anything, much less your eye.
That said I was thinking that anything that sent this much pain coursing through you might well lead to more harmful effects than a tazer. That much pain would have to be quite a shock to your body which would probably trigger a lot of reactions as a result.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
You are missing the point. For such regimes, this device would not be so attractive for crowd control as it would be for torture. Let's see...cheap and easy to reproduce, causes agony, doesn't leave marks. Perfect for extracting confessions and discrediting dissidents!
Come to think of it, considering how trigger-happy some cops around here seem to be with tasers, I'd hate to see what they would do with a device like this if they ever got someone they didn't like (accused rapist, molester, cop killer, smart-mouthed teenager) in the lock-up.
All the techniques ever used to make men moral have been themselves thoroughly immoral... (Nietzsche)
No you wouldn't.
If these become commonplace the problem will snowball. Pain begets one of two things:
1) Compliance
2) Ultra-Violence
As a result, when hit with one of these things folks are either going to crawl up into
a ball and hope it goes away, or come out guns blazing to destroy the device causing the
pain to begin with. ( and likely the wielder with it )
If I were to attend a demonstration where it is known the police would likely use such
a device on the crowd I would either:
1) Re-consider my attendance
or
2) Setup similar devices to aim at the police or resort to current tech ( read that firearms )
You cannot use what would be considered an electronic torture device on me and expect me
to be ok with it. The operators of such a device would be the FIRST targets I went after.
Since it's unlikely the citizens would have similar tech in their hands for use, firearms will
put a stop to it just as quickly.
Same with this... they'll say its a less lethal way of incapacitating enemy troops, or maybe quelling a riot. But eventually since its "safe," they'll start using it on peaceful protests that got out of the "free speech zone" and dangerously close to coming within cable news camera range.
This space available.
And jokes aside, the risks are higher than just getting hurt a little.
1. 1/64th of an inch seems sufficient to cause serious and possibly permanent eye damage. This is an area-wide weapon, it is not selective about its targets or which body part it is targeting.
2. Exposure to extreme levels of pain (especially suddenly) can also lead to a seizure or heart attack. If the pain is extremely strong, it may incapacitate the target (ever hurt yourself so badly you can't do ANYTHING except perhaps scream?), meaning the people can't escape the target zone, exposing themselves to even more pain.
3. If the authorities decide to use the weapon against a crowd, it is natural to presume some have a higher pain tolerance then others, and if the weapons is used until all or the majority of the crowd is quelled, the weaker-tolerance people will be exposed to unnecessary (and with potential serious consequences) levels and duration of pain.
4. I'm not even going to the legal definitions of physical torture in and by itself...
I'm not saying it shouldn't be used under any circumstances whatsoever, but it seems that it should be classified as deadly or almost deadly force ("deadly" in most jurisdictions includes "capable of producing grievous bodily harm).
Even the story the other day about the use of a Taser (which is also an almost-deadly-force weapon, with documented fatalities) being used where the suspect posed absolutely no danger and could have been subdued without it). This device can lead to the same consequences of a Taser, but instead of being used on one person, it affects hundreds, with no way to observe the effects on each single person and adjust the device power accordingly.
Are there cases where use of this device is legitimate? Maybe, for example if you are rushed by an angry mob and you legitimately feel your life to be in danger if you don't take immediate action. But given our record for indiscriminate and excessive use of next-to-lethal force (rubber bullets, Tasers, etc.) against peaceful demonstrations, non-violent action, cases where safer alternatives are available, and with "just for kicks" being a legitimate reason, I certainly wouldn't bet on this device to be safe in the hands of those who use it. This device is NOT a valid substitute for a water cannon or tear gas, and if in a given situation you are not justified to use live firearms, you also shouldn't be justified to use something like this.
If (or, sadly speaking, when) it will be classified as a "safe, non-lethal" weapon (just as the Taser already has been) well, we will be one mile higher up Shit Creek.
and is not being sold to countries with questionable human rights records.
Why? Does the US really need to do that much catching up?
I am a free slashdotter. I will not be modded, blogged, DRM'd, patented, podcasted or RFID'd. My life is my own.
Nah, it's the one-two combo. Some care but are powerless, whereas the others don't care--ironically making those that do care powerless!
More seriously, it's very easy for a person to off-handedly say to a pollster that they don't approve of Congress; it's quite another for that person to know what Congress is doing in the first place. That disapproval is more probably an expression of general malaise, distrust, or cynicism towards the government in general than it is any sort of appraisal of Congress as an acting body. I'd say of those polled (if past stats hold up) barely a third of respondents even know who their reps in Congress are, probably barely a half could name any rep. Most Americans would be hard pressed to name one piece of legislation passed in the last session, and even fewer to correlate that piece of legislation with its supporters and detractors correctly. Those that care are outnumbered by those that don't, and in that circumstance it is awfully difficult to take statistics that purport to show a true measure of the American people's approval or disapproval of Congress with any more than a grain of salt.
More evidence--in case you needed it--even when Congress' approval rating drops into the doldrums, as it has on several occasions, re-election rates for seated members rarely drops below 90%.
All the techniques ever used to make men moral have been themselves thoroughly immoral... (Nietzsche)
You know, the funny thing is, even the most hardened dictatorships only used "kalashnikovs for crowd control" when things really got out of hand. I know of at least one Eastern European revolution where the oppressive communist government first tried to hose them with water and whatnot, and we're talking revolt against the government there.
Compare it to the neverending stream of Taser stories from the USA. People got tasered occasionally as torture (people which had _already_ been restrained) or because a cop got a chip on his shoulder, for reasons as ridiculous as:
- asking too many questions at a political rally (see the recent story)
- being at a library without their library card (guy got tasered _repeatedly_ after he had already accepted to leave)
- diabetic guy in a medical emergency calls 911 for an ambulance, cops show up first and taser him in his bed (apparently one guy sick enough to be stuck in bed was considered dangerous enough to the cops to warrant use of the taser)
Etc, etc, etc.
Dearie, get this: even China, and even the fucking NKVD under Stalin, wouldn't have used a gun in _those_ situation. Yes, China did shoot some of the people demonstrating in Tiananmen square against the government, but not even in their darkest hour would they consider shooting a sick guy for calling an ambulance.
Effectively the idea that a taser is "non-lethal" has lowered the bar to ludicriously low extremes. It's not replacing the use of guns, as if you were to do something that warrants shooting at you, they'll _still_ shoot at you. (E.g., if you pulled a gun at a cop, I do believe they won't draw the tasers.) It just created a whole new possibility to inflict pain (again, sometimes repeatedly) on someone for minor misdemeanors or just for disliking him or just for fun. It's not replacing guns, it's _in_ _addition_ to guns, for stuff where you previously wouldn't even _think_ of drawing a gun.
Sadder still: for stuff where even China or the USSR wouldn't have even dreamed of using a gun on someone.
So the question isn't whether you'd rather get the ray or a round. For any stuff that would previously warrant getting a round, you'll still get a round. Only now you'll get the ray for everything else. Whop-de-do, big improvement there.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Can you see the inside of a microwave oven?
Have a peek at the article. It's a small box that looks somewhat like a computer power-supply. Sure, it's too big for holster-duty yet, but compared to the initial version I saw (which I assume is for making sweeps of a crowd at a larger distance) it's definitely gone down in size.
Namaste
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. THE PAIN!!
Google "library tasering". It was at UCLA not that long ago. There are probably thousands of articles about it. I pick a particular one less because it would be difficult than because each one has their own unique spin on the issue and it's easier to let you choose your source of choice.
Here is the video on YouTube, which is as close to a primary source as you can get. Basically the guy got asked to leave when he couldn't produce a student ID, and started arguing (maybe, allegedly) with the cops, who repeatedly tasered him. The tasering was less for not having the ID than it was for being 'uppity,' at least IMO. That's how they tend to get used; you shoot your mouth off? That's a taserin'. Don't do what you're told? That's a taserin'. Look at a cop the wrong way? Well, you get the idea.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
But this is not true. Torture relies just as much on fear of death or permanent injury as it does on pain. I do not believe a pain-only device would make an effective torture device. Read a book like Bravo-Two-Zero, for an idea of what the torture was like practiced by Iraqis against coalition POW's in the first Iraq war; and more importantly, what the men who are able to resist it are like. They said they tested it on "hardened marines," and they couldn't withstand it more than a couple seconds. I'd like to see how Delta or SAS guys would do against it.
It's gonna be coming in handy...
This weapon is designed to work not against invading armies, but against angry citizens. Through most of recent history, governments have been wary of angering their own populations for fear of triggering citizen revolutions. A government cannot effectively use lethal weapons on its own population in any widespread way, because those citizens make the state function. Thus, there are some things that governments simply will not do, because of the risk of a popular uprising.
With weapons like this pain gun, the balance of power is tipped sharply in favor of governments. Governments will be able to use weapons like this against their own people, without creating rebel martyrs. The immediate effects of this gun on an individual are horrible, but temporary. No disfiguring injuries to point to as proof of the government's inhumanity. Just a fleeting moment of pain, that will continue to exist only in a person's memory. These pain guns are a far more effective tool of subjugation than machine guns.
This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
and I'm not even thinking about what they can do to me from 6 blocks away.
I'm much more concerned with some one using this device on me durring an "interrogation"
how long could you take the feeling of being ON FIRE, befor you admited that you had in-fact taken the Lindburg baby and shot JFK.
worst of all, they aren't going to take you to the medic when they finnish. You're not hurt. Quit your crying and go back to your cell.
Cops can beat me, turn the dogs on me, gas, choke and burn me. These things all end up with me in front of a nurse who can witness them.
or dead....
-- Sig under construction...
Imagine a jeep mounted pleasure ray. Imagine it parked at one end of a square, pointing at a crowd. Imagine the soldier running the ray gun saying "watch this." He turns the gun to the right--the crowd races to stay in the beam. He pans left, and the crowd shuffles left. He jerks it back right, and the crowd runs facefirst into the building on that side of the square.
Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
Previously with crowd control you had to be there, looking at the crowd if not interacting with it. If a few grandmas were in the crowd- by choice or by accident- you knew it. If the "bad" crowd walked by families with small children having a picnic in the park, you'd know that you're about to tear-gas or water-cannon mothers with babies.
At a half mile away, police in Brooklyn (on one side of the East River) could do crowd control for the edge of Manhattan. One guy on the top of the Empire State Building could stampede a crowd on the avenues below. From that distance people look like- and could be thought of as- ants.
Does it have a self-destruct mode for if the device gets stolen? Do they think that bad guys won't ever get their hands on them to stampede crowds as a terrorist act? With two of these devices at a stadium, or any other location with edges and drop-offs, two terrorists could make people jump over balconies to get away from the unbearable pain.
Repressive governments will also find it a handy tool for proving that a dissident was shot for violently resisting arrest. They'll even be able to video it: "See, we ordered him to lie down with his hands over his head- you can hear us saying it over and over. But instead he chose to run towards the guards. They had no choice but to shoot." or "See, we told them to sit down, and instead they jumped off of the ship into the ocean."
Ermey hosts Mail Call on the History Channel. He's referring to Richard Machowicz, ex-SEAL and current host of Discovery Channel's Future Weapons show. While I enjoy Mail Call on occasion, Machowicz is far more hands-on with the technology.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
No, its not R. Lee Ermey. I think the parent post was talking about Richard 'Mack' Machowicz who hosts 'FutureWeapons' which airs on both The Discovery Channel and the Military Channel. If you go here you can find a link to a clip featuring the Active Denial System.
SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0
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While you are at it, please check what happens to exposed corneas in your eyes (or at least the topmost 1/64th of it).
With any luck, it'll coaggulate and turn opaque, so the police won't need to use blindfolds on the protesters.
With even more luck, it'll stay that way forever...
Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
1/64" of an inch of intense heating is enough to cook your cornea
True.. But if this is radio/microwave based the cornea is probably NOT going to absorb much....
I would expect much of the waves would directly heat the retina of the eye (if aimed toward it).
Which would seem to cause one of two possibilities:
1) Your retina gets cooked, you go permanently blind instantly (upon a direct pulse to the eye).
2) I'm guessing the retina has no pain receptors.... Overstimuling the retina might cause (painless) damage and probably very strange visual sensations. This can't be good....
Losing a few nerves on arm/leg skin is one thing... Eye/brain damage is a bit different and probably difficult to prove. (No, your eyesight was never as good as you claim (20/20), we the raygun didn't damage it).
I've only had 3-4 physicals, and I've never seen an optomitrist (bad spelling, eye doctor). Since my eyesight was better than the minimum for 20/20 it would be difficult for me to pr ove any degradation. Plus I don't have the health records anymore or know who the doctors were (its been a while). I suspect many people are like me in this regard.
And what about people who have metal implants as a result of surgery? (e.g. from broken bone, etc)...
If they really want to convince us that this thing is safe, they should do the following:
1) Sedate the CEO and CFO of Raytheon, and possibly pain-blocking drugs.
2) Fire the full-size raygun at them for 5 minutes continously.
3) See what happens to them over the next few years/months.
in the sense that Mussolini used it, does not mean what you think it means. The word "corporation" did not mean "commercial enterprise" to him as it does to 21st century Americans, it was used in the much older sense to mean "body or grouping of interests".
See the Wiki
Mussolini's "corporatism" meant a sort of negotiating council comprising representatives of government, organised labour and industrial capital, which is a fascist/Third Way kind of idea for overcoming the at that time hugely destabilising tension between capital and labour (verging on literal civil war). On the face of it, not actually that bad, except that in practice it was unelected and unresponsive to democracy, the governmental elements tended to end up calling all the shots, and labour particularly suffered. And mixed with the ultranationalist and militarist elements of the weird soup that was Fascism in reality as opposed to in its initial conception, it turned out to be really really bad. But it's arguable that the bad parts of Fascism didn't all derive from that initial idea.
I'm as aware as the next person that commercial corporations are antidemocratic in internal structure, but the scary thing is that many people arguing loudest that "corporatism is fascism" tend to be unaware that the kind of political system they *would* prefer in its place is closer to the initial forms of actual historical Fascism.
You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
I, for one, welcome our nerve-vibrating microwave Hummer-mounted overlords who won't cause permanent, visible injury as long as we aren't wearing glasses or contacts.
The use at low intensities could be just as worrysome. Why inflict a lot of pain on a reporter, when you could give everyone who asked certain questions a small, perhaps not even consiously noticeable amount of discomfort that, in the long enough run, would discourage those lines of thought. Start with those reporters while they are journalism majors and by the time they are ever in the white house press room, they are already compliant.
Or take product competition. How little discomfort would it take to condition people not to by your competitor's brand? Even a tiny amount of pain, experienced by every customer who walks through a competitor's front door, could shift sales patterns pretty strongly your way over years of repetition.
Sweep the crowd at a candidate's rally, on low intensity, and see if some people don't leave early, questioners sound surlier, the candidate's speech sound flat or unappealing, and soon, local support seemingly evaporates. The national press reports candidate X doesn't seem to have enthusiastic support, and his party ends up going with another candidate.
Who is John Cabal?
My God. This is so bad at so many levels, but here's my contribution to the list.
A tazer has to be held by the user in contact with the victim. The victim at least gets to see the person coming and witness them. This evil device leaves no evidence and can be operated at a great distance in full anonymity.
1/ What about severe misue of the device for assassination, by any number of conscienceless vermin across society:
1.1/ Target a plane's cockpit on takeoff. Dead. No evidence. Post mortem: Accident.
1.2/ Target a mountain climber hiking (unroped) up a steep mountainside. Dead. No evidence. Post mortem: Accident.
1.3/ Target a skydiver/BASE jumper after jumping and before opening their chute. Dead. No evidence. Post mortem: Accident.
1.4/ Targetting the driver of Xxxx Xx's Mercedes as it travels into a French tunnel at high speed. Massive accident, perhaps death, certain personal trauma. No evidence. Post mortem: Accident.
1.5/ Target Lewis Hamilton's Maclaren at the end of Spa's main straight, just before the braking zone. (precedent: Steffi Graf, Monica Seles, Gunter Parche) Massive accident, perhaps death, certain loss of race points. No evidence. Post mortem: Accident.
1.6/ Target that noisy motorcyclist who keeps riding up and down the road outside your retirement home. Massive accident, perhaps death, certain personal trauma. No evidence. Post mortem: Accident.
No evidence. No sound. Sniper-like secrecy. Uncontrollable pain. Certain or highly probable death.
2/ How can its premise of evidenceless be defeated? A vulnerable person may be unable to wear a full "tinfoil suit" (mountain climber), but perhaps they can carry a frequency recording device that can be manufactured and distrubuted cheaply that amounts to a piece of litmus-like paper that changes colour if subjected to this evil device's frequency at a threshold intensity, so that the person's body will at least carry a fragment of evidence that the magic frequeny was applied to the person, causing the pain (and death if so). Patentable? Hope not. I just put it into the public domain to try to block that usually bad outcome.
ANonCow
Oblig.
Seriously. This thing scares me more than nuclear weapons. At least with a nuke, you would be turned to your constituent atoms quicker than your nerves could react. With this "pain ray" Corporations and governments could exert complete control over their populations. Dipshit "America firsters" will try to get this set up on the borders to keep out all the "brown people"
Then there is the little matter that these are most likely considerably easier to create than nukes. Something a well financed terrorist could conceivably come up with in a couple of years and you have the perfect terror weapon. They wouldn't need to do it to people in Times Square. They could just camp out a half a mile from the runway of any major airport and cook the pilots when the planes are taking off. Presto! Instant coordinated air distasters at every major airport in the U.S simultaneously.
The humunculi who think up and fund these things should just be loaded into a space ship blasted into the fucking sun.
Let's start with CS gas. For those unfamiliar with it, CS gas is the militarized version of tear gas. Part of basic training is to go into a room full of CS gas, remove your gas mask, and walk out. Your eyes will be burning. You can't really see. It's hard to breathe. Extended puking sessions are commonplace. Serious stuff. Recovery can take 20 minutes. CS can, if you have a severe reaction, or have respiratory difficulties such as asthma, cause serious injury or death in some cases. Being a gas, it's also out of your control once you release it, and goes where the wind takes it.
Now, let's compare that to this new weapon, which I shall call the pain ray whether they like to call it that or not. The pain ray certainly hurts, very much. Does it deliver more pain and discomfort in a few seconds of exposure than a good dose of CS gas? Well, I don't know and I wouldn't especially care to find out, but one thing that we can probably count on is that it's brand of discomfort is probably a lot more memorable than CS gas. The world is full of people who've been tear-gassed more than once, but it's hard to imagine someone stepping in the way of the pain ray more than once.
So, on the one hand, we have CS gas; painful, unpleasant, 20 minute effects, with a small risk of serious injury or death. On the other hand, we have the pain ray. Very effective when on, but the effects vanish as soon as you switch it off, and it can't cause death, serious injury, or even minor injury (the claim that it can burn someone alive is either pure ignorance or a straight out lie, I don't know which; the pain ray doesn't causes burns, it causes the feeling of burning pain by stimulating nerve endings, not by actually causing damage). The pain ray might be the better choice for riot control.
I don't believe objections to it as a device are particularly well taken, but objections to peripheral danger from things such as stampedes should be considered. Have you ever seen a crowd of people get tear-gassed? A stampede is the typical reaction. People get injured, I'm sure they sometimes get knocked out. I'd be surprised if they didn't occasionally get trampled to death. This one's a wash.
Used on American citizens to prevent riots? Maybe, if it ever gets issued to police (the army being prevented from enforcing civil law). The lesson there is "Don't riot." I personally doubt it will ever be used in the United States because somebody would sue over it.
Designed for that reason? Nope. It was designed for use as a military weapon, especially in situations where you might otherwise have to use deadly force, which brings us down to the ultimate question: would you rather people get hit with a device that causes intense but temporary pain that vanishes when you switch it off, or would you rather they get hit with a device that causes intense but long-lasting, with common side effects of permanent disability or death (that is, a bullet). I think I'd go with the pain ray. It's less damaging than CS gas, less likely to have to be used on a given person more than once (would *you* mess with somebody who had one of those? I wouldn't), and far more likely than CS gas to get instant compliance.
Sure, it's unpleasant. All weapons are unpleasant, it goes with the territory. However, it's no worse than CS gas and better than bullets.
One concern I think we both share is its potential for use as a torture device. As unsettling as that may be, the facts on the ground are that there are already plenty of torture methods that cause tremendous physical and/or mental suffering, and some of them, like the pain ray, leave no permanent damage or evidence, meaning you a person can claim torture but can present no proof. Looks like a wash again.
Funny how most of the people who say that the US is a police state are Americans who've never actually been to or met anyone who has lived in a real police states.
You're totally right. Those other repressive regimes operate secret prisons where people are whisked away without being formally charged and then they're tortured for supposed information. Nobody even knows how many of those prisons exist or how many prisoners are in them. And then their own government completely monitors all their 'private' communications without warrants or any reasonable cause to suspect them of wrong-doing.
Fortunately, we've got a constitution that protects Americans from living under such a 'police state.'
Seth
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
> But we taser people too often, so we're worse. Seriously, fuck you.
Grand parent never claimed US was "worse" than USSR. That is pure invention on your part, because you lack the mental capabilities to read what he actually wrote. As long as you compensate for your long for your low intelligence by inventing stuff, you will never become smarter.
He claimed that in the US people are tasered for situations where more oppressive governments would not use a gun. You then counter by a Wikipedía quote, listing abuses done by USSR in situation where US police or guards would not use a taser. You don't use tasers to assassinate people, or to "subversion of foreign governments", once again demonstrating how access to Wikipedia is in no way a replacement for having a brain.
C. "Don't run a country in such a way as to create the cause for giant protests."
If there are mass protests, then it means the elected (sic) government is doing something wrong and the appearance of masses of people on the Whitehouse lawn should inspire them not to control and disperse the people with force, but to stop raping them through corrupt law.
Yes, I like that idea a whole lot better than getting to choose which version of molestation I would prefer to be subjected to when I show up to haul my not-so-democratically elected official to prison for started wars and taking bribes and generally being a psychotic clown.
Oh. . , but I should be practical. We don't live in an ideal world. I HAVE to choose, because that's just how it is. The 'facts on the ground' as you say, (along with the genocidal Zionist psychotics who first coined the term), are such that riots exist and must be dealt with, and that we simply must be controlled by weapons of mass dispersal. It's the American way.
Bullllllshit. That's such bullshit, and I reject it outright! The monsters may attack us, but I absolutely refuse to give them my mind as well. --To believe that they are somehow right to fire poison and pain rays into crowds of people. They are not! They are wrong!
Michael Moore's "Sicko" is a good example of the discrepancy between reality and perceived reality. It was easily the best piece of work he's produced, and I would recommend it to anybody. It's hard to realize just how fascist and evil the U.S. Government really is until you get an outside perspective. 9-11 rescue workers injured in their efforts to help out on the day and utterly ignored by the U.S. system were given free medical care in Cuba ferchrisake. It brought them all to tears as their illusions of the outside world were shattered. --And France appears to be an excellent example of a government being effectively bullied by the people, the way it ought to be. French universal health care, long holidays, labor laws which make the U.S. by comparison look like Red Russia, and yet, amazingly, the country remains one of the richest in the EU. America is deeply, deeply messed up, and her inhabitants are for the most part not even aware of the fact for having been so lied to, so beaten, so controlled, so poisoned and so undereducated. When I see Bush on a news piece walking through a crowd, it's plain that he's looking at the people the way one might look at chickens in a factory farm; pathetic and stupid and not even aware of how badly they've been screwed. How can he respect the people for being so blind and so totally bled by him and his kind?
So, No thank-you. I won't choose between CS gas and Pain Guns. Neither should exist.
The day the gene for psychopathy is discovered, all who carry it need to be visibly branded and put away in a big, enclosed city and we should throw huge bags of money and guns over the walls for them to back-stab each other to control. They'll take care of the problem they represent all on their own.
-FL
You are quite correct. As you say, the Taser has been found to be "seldom lethal"... often called "less lethal" weaponry. Those who call it "non-lethal" are either lying or uninformed. For example, just recently there was a casualty in my own city. (Yes, in the U.S.)
Because of its status as "less lethal", the Taser is supposed to be used by law enforcement as "an alternative to lethal force". In other words, as a way of stopping a person when the only other alternative is to shoot them with a gun. And it performs that function quite well. The Taser very seldom (but occasionally) results in permanent damage or death.
PROBLEM #1 is exactly that perception of non-lethality. To some, non-lethal or "less lethal" means safe or even sane. However, I would be willing to bet a large amount that if you compared the number of people in history who have been beaten with nightsticks, to the number of people who have been Tasered, you would find a higher lethality rate for the Taser. I am only guessing, but nobody so far has really done such a study, so the question is open. And as I mentioned, one died just recently in my own town. I do not think anyone in this town has ever died from beatings by nightsticks... and believe me, there have been some over the last couple of hundred years.
PROBLEM #2 is the conception that "no permanent harm" means "no harm". Bullshit. People hit with a Taser fall down hard, in unnatural positions, and hurt themselves. It is also excruciatingly painful. I believe most people who have been Tasered would rather have been hit with a nightstick, even though the latter would hurt for a much longer time.
Years ago, a popular interrogation (or control) device was a length of rubber hose, because it could be extremely painful but leave few marks and do "no permanent harm". Sound familiar? Strangely, the rubber hose is internationally vilified as a "torture device" while the Taser is not. Somebody please explain this to me!
PROBLEM #3 Police forces tend to attract the kind of people who like to bully and control other people. You could argue with me all you want about that but history supports that statement beyond dispute. I am not saying that all cops are bad, but a disproportionate percentage of them are, and always have been. Plain, simple truth. I wish it were otherwise.
PROBLEM #4 is actually just the consequences of 1, 2, and 3: Police forces (at least in the U.S.) have started using Tasers in ways that are completely inappropriate: to avoid physical confrontation at all; as an alternative to nightsticks (rather than as an alternative to guns, as it should be); and even just as a convenience, such as to avoid having to tell someone something one more time. I have seen video clips of police Tasering people for such things as talking back, not moving fast enough for the officer's taste, and other such "criminal" acts. That very recent video of the student getting Tasered at the Kerry speech is a classic case. The student might have been a mouthy ass, but he did not deserve the treatment he received.
People need to get together and demand that their state or city restrict the use of Tasers (again) to "an alternative to deadly force". Otherwise, their use will escalate and the public will surely regret it.
I was not going to mention the circumstances behind the recent death by Taser in my city, but actually I think it is worth mentioning.
A man (who was not under suspicion for a crime at the time) was beaten and eventually Tasered while he was having an epileptic seizure, because he was "not responding" to police orders. Of course he was not responding... he was twitching face down on the lawn in a seizure! Any idiot should have been able to see that something was amiss. Witnesses stated that the police were wantonly brutal and that he had never provoked anyone... he was simply not responding.
The man happened to be at a house (he did not live there) when the police went to arrest the resident on drug charges. He was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. There were no charges against him. An acquaintance of mine knew him. She said he was one of the nicest people she ever knew. Wouldn't hurt a fly.
(This isn't really in response to the parent, it's just part of the discussion.) CS is Chlorobenzylidene Malononitrile. It's "non-lethal" in the sense that exposure can cause damage to the heart and kidneys, interstitial scarring of lung tissue, and miscarriages in pregnant women exposed to the gas (Journal of the American Medical Association). If the concentration is high enough and you happen to be in an enclosed space, it can kill you (Waco, Texas).
.357 magnum, his fists, and his mouth. When your only non-verbal options are "Kill Them" or "Beat Them" you -have- to be good at verbal de-escalation techniques, ie: negotiation. You learn to talk people down, gain trust, establish rapport, so you don't have to maul them with the Big F'ing Stick. Nowadays police don't need to do that, because they can just use something "harmless" like CS gas, tasers, or "the pain gun" and the only response from the average person seems to be "They should have done what the police told them to do." Hello, Police State!
So obviously tasers are preferable, right?!? I mean, they're mostly harmless aside from randomly killing people that have any kind of heart defect, including something as simple as arrhythmia, which they may not even know they have. But I'm sure if you
"Less-lethal" weapons are a lie, and they're a way to assuage any potential guilt an officer might have about assaulting the citizenry ("Don't worry about it, this is harmless"). My father was a state police officer for years, and I've heard all the war stories. He had a nightstick, a
--Obyron