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Vonage Hit With $69.5M Judgement
andy1307 writes "The Washington Post is reporting that Net telephone company Vonage Holdings Corp. was ordered in federal court Tuesday to pay Sprint Nextel $69.5 million in damages for infringing on six telecommunications patents owned by competitor Sprint Nextel Corp. In addition to the damages, jurors awarded Sprint Nextel a 5 percent royalty from Vonage on future revenues. It was the second verdict against Vonage this year. A jury in Virginia determined in March that Vonage had violated three Verizon patents in building its Internet phone system. The jury awarded Verizon $58 million in damages plus 5.5 percent royalties on future revenues. Greg Gorbatenko, a telecommunications and media analyst for Jackson Securities, said the decision 'feels like a death knell' for Vonage because future revenue will likely dry up, preventing the company from investing in better technology or improving customer service."
... they have destroyed VOIP as a threat, and they can go about their usual greedy, grasping ways. Sprint will raise a glass to Verizon and toast to their continued wealth.
But there will come a day when we will kick their corporate corpses and spit on them.
Damn, I wish I'd remembered to patent "connecting phone calls over the internet" when I thought about it... oh, the first time I saw a microphone attached to a PC.
Seriously, 8 random people who aren't smart enough to get out of jury duty are considered smart enough to understand the fine points of patent law and internet telephony? And this is enough to cripple a (relatively) small startup company? Can someone remind me what Sprint/Nextel did with these oh-so-valuable patents, and what Vonage did that cost them tens of millions of dollars? Besides not paying sprint tens of millions of dollars, that is.
If I knew the wedgies I gave you back in 6th grade would have resulted in this . . . I might have taken a moments pause.
Better lawyers needed
From a customer viewpoint, I like Vonage because it's cheaper than a local phone, but I can't say I've seen any particular improvement in the service for the three years that I've been a customer. It works fine. There are some features, such as separate voicemail boxes for family members, which I've waited in vain for all along. Instead they introduced speech-to-text but are charging extra for it. Totally automated services like that ought to be free add-ons to differentiate themselves from "old-fashioned" telephone and nickle-and-diming cellphone companies. I'm not sure what their long-term plan is. Simply bridging between the Internet and POTS can't be all that hard.
In addition to the damages, jurors awarded Sprint Nextel a 5 percent royalty from Vonage on future revenues.
The correct legal strategy here is, change their name to an unpronounceable symbol, and force everyone to call them "the telecommunications company formerly known as Vonage".
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
I find Vonage to be an excellent company. I've had service with them for over a year and it'll be sad to watch them die if they do.
This is a perfect example of how patents utterly destroy innovation.
Here we have Vonage, offering a novel and efficient solution to global communication. They're opening up new possibilities. Yet the incumbents dare not face true competition, so they quash this innovative burst of talent. And what do we get? Less innovation, and less economic efficiency.
This is utterly absurd.
In 1985 I worked out everything that was required to do this and in fact even went so far as to track down Dialog cards so I could interface a PC to a T1 line.
There is NOTHING required that is worthy of a patent. NOTHING at all. This is all a totally obvious idea and relatively easy to implement. In fact it is so obvious that when I started working on the project I never even considered that patents would be available.
I never finished that project. I was a single parent working at home and my kids at the time decided I should not be allowed to program. Alas.
Now of course we have projects like Asterisk and its quite mature.
So how does this ruling affect projects like Asterisk? (www.asterisk.org)
Are we banned from plugging a hand held device that contains both a speaker and a microphone into a computer now? Or are we banned from connecting the computer to the telco switch, which BTW is a computer.
Maybe we are banned from connecting a computer which is called a PC to a computer which is called a switch via a network which has been in common use for decades.
To the fellow who points out that people who are too dumb to get out of jury duty are put in charge of million dollar technical decisions which they cannot possibly understand.... yes. You are 100% correct and you make an excellent post.
Its clear that lawyers have managed to turn technical progress into a game of craps. IMHO this is something the public needs to be more aware of and somehow it would be nice if our pollies could be held accountable for the bad legislation they created. We really need to get patent business out of the computer business.
Interesting contradiction in a CNN article:
...
"We are disappointed that the jury did not recognize that our technology differs from that of Sprint's patents," chief legal officer Sharon O'Leary said in a statement.
"Vonage is working on a technology "workaround" to Sprint's patents similar to how it is addressing the Verizon patents."
Why would it be working on work-arounds for patents that it is not infringing?
Well, on the bright side, we won't be having to hear anymore of that damn "Woohoo" song from their commercials.
anybody have a professional review of the patents and how they compare to vonage and their technology? as well as a professional opinion on wether there was infringment or not? now any tin foil hat wearing fool can jump to the conclusion that there must be some kind of collusion or conspiracy or even advantage being taken that is due to protect profits for investors. also keep in mind that vonage would have to approve of the jury selection as well. so i assume they did not just settle with the first 12 guys named joe or other similar scientific process. they also had the chance to give "facts" as they saw them. there seems to be a lack independant review, at least publicly, of the disputed patents.
We've got patents being issued on obvious / unpatentable ideas and they're being upheld by courts that appear to be working for the big corporations - maybe the judges are clueless or overworked, but decisions like this one don't make the legal system look good.
Jointly, the current giant telecom companies hold patents on everything up to and including transmitting a voice over a wire. Any inventor that comes up with a better or cheaper way to provide voice telephony service will receive the same treatment that Vonage did.
said the decision 'feels like a death knell' for Vonage because future revenue will likely dry up, preventing the company from investing in better technology or improving customer service."
Sharon, you must think we're a bunch of chumps. We didn't get to be big phone companies by being nice, you know. Better service and lower prices? Did you really think we'd let you get away with that little stunt?
Why do you think we pushed patents in the first place? Monopolies have always been about better profits, and never about better customer service or value. Quite charming that someone out there actually believes in such antiquated notions, really.
I believe, Sharon, you are just beginning to understand how a phone company is supposed to work. Better customer service? Hah! We're here to make a profit, and while your little charade was entertaining, it's high time you got on with being serious about being a phone company.
I mean, honestly, when was the last time one of your customers was on hold for more than a half hour before finally giving up? And you call yourselves a phone company...
Better technology? Are you serious? Why, that costs money, you know. Did you really believe our lawyers would let you get away with that?
After all, just who do you think we are?
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
This may sound stupid, but...
What if someone were to start a non-profit voip provider? Would they still be subject to patent law? I mean, what if they aren't out to seek profits and exist to provide a service to the community? Pay for overhead costs with tax-deductable donations and charge a small monthly fee. Would this even work?
It's really kind of ironic. Verizon bought out MCI, which was one of the first long distance companies that was able to circumvent the AT&T regulated monopoly. Their microwave towers were disrupting the existing market forces in much the same way that Vonage and VoIP in general has the potential to be. Now a company that only managed to get its start by being basically "a law firm with an antenna on the roof" is essentially using their army of lawyers to keep down their potential competitors.
Funny how that works.
So, looking through google news about Vonage, none of the stories I found actually said which patents were ruled to have been infringed upon. Does anyone know what techniques and technologies Vonage used that Sprint and/or Verizon own patents on?
Seriously though, why would ANYONE consider it smart to get out of jury duty when the decisions of the juries impacts case law like no other. Why is "Getting out of jury duty" considered smart? Yes, it is a hassle and there are opportunity costs involved, but think of the cost of ALL JURIES BEING RETARDED.
Because the jury selection process has been corrupted to the point that anyone with any background in the subject in question, or an engineering background in general, will be deliberately excluded from the selection.
If I understand it correctly, this apparently started out to avoid having jury members bring into their deliberations any personal knowledge of information that is not in evidence (and thus was not subject to challenge by the litigating parties). But the net effect is to exclude exactly those people with the educational toolkit to make informed judgements on technical issues, rather than being led around by the rhetorical skills of the attorneys.
People with technical backgrounds are, in fact, excluded from most trials. The ability to reason logically is seen as a liability by both prosecuting and defending attorneys.
One result is that the panels finally selected are far from a statistical sample of the population - with a statistical bias that subverts the intent of the jury system - and thus justice - to an extreme degree.
The other result is that going through jury selection is, for most technical people (along with anybody with a strong political position, knowledge of guns or crime, etc.), a massive waste of time. They will almost never be selected.
= = = =
By the way: You won't find the phrase "jury of his peers" in the US legal system. This is because we're all supposed to be peers before the law. Thus you have no case if you, as an engineer, object to being tried by a jury that systematically excludes engineers and consists exclusively of people who are retired or on welfare.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Just hit customers with a US$1.00 increment in service charges. Problem solved. Period.
it's a huge deal, your just slow.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
This is a perfect example of how bad patent laws and poor bureaucratic administartion utterly destroy innovation.
Fixed for you.
I am not a lawyer. This post does not constitute any form of legal advice.
That's not how slashdot operates. Remember ALL patents are bad (unless they benefit us). It doesn't matter what the patents says because no one here even understands IP let alone patents. We do however understand that they're bad and if they're held by our enemies, then they're doubly bad (unless it's IBM...or Google...or well I'm sure another friend will pop up soon).
I has nothing to do with your yugo, its about cheaper landline service at home. I prefer landlands when at home, because cell phones cut out, there are sometimes connection problems where people can't hear my, battery life sucks, etc.
Otherwise, innovation might be stifled.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
It is increasingly starting to look like the US system will grind to a halt. The real question is what it will take for competition from abroad to force a reform. My guess is that sooner or latter the US economy will take such a hit that the rest of the world will no longer be dependant upon it. When that happens Black Tuesday will look like statistical noise in comparison.
Another way to look at it is that some technologies, in order to move forward, need to use current, patented technologies as a basis. If other companies are not allowed to use these existing technologies as a jumping-off point for further innovation, only the patent-holders will be able to do it... and if they AREN'T doing it for whatever reason, then it will remain stagnant.
If your television gets to you over the Internet, and your telephone gets to you over the Internet, and your Internet gets to you over the Internet, then there's only need for one connection into your house. This could be a single strand of fiber optic cable. Fewer holes to dig, less material to manufacture.
As you know, the Internet is transmitted using digital signals. These signals have a multitude of mediums they can use. Radio waves, electrical signals, light pulses, carrier pigeons, etc.
POTS travels almost exclusively over copper (at least up to and into your house). Copper is expensive.
POTS is also geographically oriented. This is nice, in the case of reliable 911 service, but sucks when it comes to long distance charges. The Internet is not geographically oriented, so the pros and cons are exactly the opposite. (Though I'm sure solutions will be found in both cases!)
In general, VoIP is awesome for the big company who has to worry about 100 strand fiber optic cables as opposed to 5000 pair copper cables, especially in the event of a cut. It will be rather 'meh' for the consumer who might see lower bills or more features, but will generally see minimal benefit.
For now, nothing beats a "2500" set and a pair of copper wires for basic voice transmission.
Withdrawal before climax is very ineffective and those who try this are usually called "parents."
As much as I like VOIP Vonage is pretty sleazy to deal with. I kept having service interruptions so I finally cancelled my service. It took 20 minutes of threats of lawsuits before they would even agree to cancel the service. Over all it took 45 minutes of fighting and they were still trying to talk me out of it right up until I hung up on them. There are other and better services so it couldn't happen to a sleazier company as far as I'm concerned.
(to the jingle, woo woo, woo woo woo)
woo woo we got sued!!
woo woo we got sued!
woo woo, woo woo,
woo woo we got sued!
goodbye!
I'd feel bad for Vonage except they already screwed me this year so I learned the hard way they were no less evil than any other phone company. I had been a customer of Vonage a year or so ago. I had several lines and had bought a couple decent phones to go with their service. I still have the boxes and receipts for these phones. I moved, switched jobs, etc and canceled my service until I'd gotten settled back in. When I go to turn my service back on I find out that they'd managed to leave one line subscribed. They swear up and down that there is no way I could have canceled my other lines without canceling that line unless I'd specified for that to happen. So if I want to get service back I'll have to pay the monthly fees and extra fees for that line before I can re-open my account. They never even sent me any kind of paper notice letting me know a line was still connected and going unpaid. Supposedly they emailed me the notice to my dead old work account and that I should have made sure they had an updated email address before I canceled my account. So fine, I argue with them for a while and get nowhere so I figure I'll just sign my wife up an account instead and worry about the fees later. No go - they lock the devices to individual users accounts. You can't switch them to another account even if you've previously disabled the phone from your account to add a different, more expensive, phone to your account. Okay this sucks - I check the packaging and none of the phones says anything about being locked to the vendor let alone to a specific account. The only note I have about this policy is a blurp that came with the original phone I got with my service and I'd assumed it'd only count for that phone as they gave me a discount off the price for signing up. The other phones I'd bought I couldn't get the discount because I was already a Vonage customer. Several hundred dollars down the drain with some nice VoIP phones I can no longer use at all and I chose not to open my wife a new account if I couldn't use the phones I'd already purchased.
This is ass stupid behavior from a company. I had been a loyal customer who frequently told people how good their service was. Now I tell them how much Vonage sucks and to beware their dishonest business practicies. Brilliant move. Giving me a $100 credit for service I didn't use would have got my business back for years to come.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
"It is increasingly starting to look like the US system will grind to a halt. "
Translation: Other countries?
"The real question is what it will take for competition from abroad to force a reform. "
Translation: I think my country can beat up your country.
"My guess is that sooner or latter the US economy will take such a hit that the rest of the world will no longer be dependant upon it."
Thankfully we don't sell spell checkers. Anyway our "doom" will come from the housing "thud" and credit "crunch" as well as the "snap/crackle/ and pop" of the environment. As for the last. You're ignorant, and before some zealous mod mods me down. I suggest you go over to the commerce dept. web site and look. We're so intertwined with the rest of the world it's not funny.
"When that happens Black Tuesday will look like statistical noise in comparison."
History may not be your strong point but I suggest you research the depression. The effects weren't just confined to the US. And in todays world a repeat would be much worse.
http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf
I have been using Vonage for several years (About a week after it was available in my area).
It has it's issues. Usually my problem is my ISP (NOT VONAGE). Sure telco is responsible from end-to-end. Sure Telco costs more for that "infrastructure". It is not fair that I was paying $100 for the same copper that was installed and paid for itself many times over all ready. But - honestly, Vonage is the only reason I still have a home phone.
My wife and I each have cell's. Why a home phone? No idea - but for $25 -vs- $100 why not keep one???
I see from the article that the patent system is working as intended.
Patents really exist to slow the pace of innovation down to the point where the legal system can deal with it. They are also intended to protect the large economic organizations from threats by smaller corporations that may not be able or care to carry the loads for the system that the larger entities do. (However inefficiently.)
That patents promote innovation is a propaganda line that has never been true. Patents were created as a mechanism to prevent the rapid spread of a technology that threatened a royal monopoly in the late 1600s. They have always been no more than a way to slow down or stop change in the economy.
Preventing other people from using new ideas is all patents allow anyway. To really use a patent, you have to have a large amount of money to spend on lawyers. The results are usually chaotic, with the normal result being that the side with the most money wins. Often by bankrupting the other side with legal bills. Private patent holders are even told this in court, with the judge agreeing. There are exceptions, mostly when the patent owner is a law firm (Patent Troll). Even then the systems works, as the Trolls increase the cost of doing anything in a new way to the point where only truly outstanding ideas are ever doable.
The problem here is that this crowd (Slashdotters generally) doesn't understand the real reasons for the system. They are falling for the propaganda reasons, which are obviously not working. If you understand the real reasons, the system is working just fine. Those very public reasons of 'promoting innovation' are only out there to dupe the masses, and allow for the usual corruption at the top to continue.
Next thing I know, you will be claiming that drug patents reduce the cost of drugs. I guess P.T. was right, there really is one born every minute.
Everybody knows 3 people with my name.
I was the foreman on a murder trial a few years ago.
After the trial, speaking with the defense and prosecutors, they both said they nearly excluded me, but both took a chance. They outright told me that they are afraid of people in technical, specifically IT related technical fields, serving on juries. They didn't really elaborate much but it was the general rule, not one just for this case.
I did convey to them that I believed that was wrong thinking on thier parts.
I am Homer of Borg. Resistance is Fut.. Mmmmmmmm, Donuts!
Let me start by saying i know very little about the specifics of this case. I also believe that there is a time and place for some sort of patent system (whether the current system is flawed, I don't know). Alot of the posts have critized the patents for stiffling progress. I'm wondering if these responses have been gut reactions reactions, or if these posters know something i do not. Does anyone know which patents are in question? Of those people who do, does anyone have the technical and legal expertise to distinguish a valid patent from one which should never have been granted? Does Sprint have a valid case for any of the patents in question? I'm not posting to defend sprint. I'm just curious what has tipped so many peoples opinion in favor of Vonage. What is it that you know that I don't?
you have no chance to survive make your time
I like Vonage because their service lets me use a non-local number. In this case, I live on one side of the country, while my gf is on the outer. Since I've been scoping jobs in her area, it's nice to have a number that's local to that area for interested employers to call.
Is the 5.5% to be taken off the income (sales) or off the profit? That's quite not the same.
Fantasy: http://ferrisfantasy.blogspot.com/
This is not free market capitalism. This is monopolistic capitalism with a dash of fascism, in that the corporations control the government. There is a huge difference.
Vonage customer service sucks.
I never used the customer service until I wanted to get out of the program. The process for doing that was horrible. We ended up in a dispute over the last month's charge. They said I owed it because even though I didn't use the service, I hadn't canceled in time, I said I tried to cancel but they screwed up and I wasn't going to pay them a single penny more.
Eventually they backed down, but I would never recommend Vonage to anyone.
It cost them way more to fight with me than it would have to just let me go. If they had more money they'd probably just hire someone to screw with me some more...
if i was a mod id plus five you any day, hawt stuff. enjoi yr b-day, you earned a lifetime of greatness.
luv u,
mom
This is a perfect example of how bad patent laws and poor bureaucratic administration utterly destroy innovation.
Fixed if you you.
I meant to type "if you you" instead of "it for you" btw.
Snarky comebacks have little effect when I mispell words, eh? In my defense (what little there can be), I was suffering from a massive headache at the time I submitted my comment. Thanks for the correction.
I am not a lawyer. This post does not constitute any form of legal advice.
With their disconnection/connection fees, wasteful advertisements, and high prices, Vonage is getting what they deserved.
It'd be a wet dream if Rogers Phone would follow their fate, but nobody can touch such a big company..
You know, this case reveals a glaring crack in the foundations of enlightened self interest capitalism.
Another society (other than the USA) that could figure out how to rapidly, reasonably and cheaply license patents an copyrighted works could economically outperform the USA.
The multi million dollar amount of the patent settlement is relatively small compared to the economic diversion and damage done as the patent holder blocks the development of voip telephony. Essentially, the patent system is operating to block social change.
"blocking social change" needs to be appreciated. In it's positive manifestation it is the comfort and stability of the American System. There actually was a politicial platform called the "American System" described and advanced in the ~1880's. That system is a precursor to our current system.
After all, we all want a job to pay our mortgage and save up for our retirement and our kid's college tuition (partially, the loans begin in the Junior year). The stability of our American System is maintained by many interlocking mercantile compromises.
The problem has been patent and copyright lawyers have continuously blocked the writing of law to force reasonably priced licenses.
How about we require all patent an license fees to not exceed 5% of the dollar amount paid for the energy reequired to operate the patented device for a year. Only for registered, fee paid patents and copyrights for only 16 years from the date of issue of the patent.
Put the patent system and the vaunted value of copyrightable creative work in it's place: conceiving of something and building the first working prototype is just a tiny fraction of the lifetime costs of any invention or innovation. Lots and lots of independent re-invention happens. Let the lucky first inventor get a sliver of the follow on revenue if he is willing to get out there, charge consulting fees, and help out other people instead of sitting in a coffee shop with a lawyer scheming on how much money they can extract from other businesses.
For further thoughts, see Don Lancaster's web site and anti-patent comments. Janis Ian's website has a penetrating analysis of the music business. The big thinker of the 70's on this issue was Peter Drucker, a popularizer of knowledge based exports as a business advantage for highly educated technically advanced societies. (Planners in China and India read his books.). And of course there is Richard Stallman's free software. Essentially he has created a reasonably priced copyright license. He has opened a window into the next economic universe.
Thinking in terms of what social system will be economically superior to the American System, that next generation social framework will clearly surge ahead of us if they can design a clean, effective and cheap patent and copyright process.
You mention, skype, which is a voip company, but there are using their own proprietary method. Vonage otoh, is using SIP (session initiation protocol) which is the standard for voip. I just don't see what patents vonage could be infringing on but no one else is.
Heck, getting a naked DSL connection from the local telco provider in my region (Canada) means I also get hit with a $10 charge, (penalty) because I'm not also subscribing to their phone service. What kind of company bills you for NOT using their service? It's damned criminal, but there's precious little which can be done about it. I liked it waaaay back when Bell was a government controlled monopoly. When they pulled greedy tactics, the public was quick to slam them down. It was rare for me to ever see a phone bill over $25 a month back then.
Then the whole show was deregulated and competition opened up and everybody cheered because they were ignorant. (People! Oh lordy, but they can be sooooo dumb!) I was one of the only people yelling, "Don't you see? It's a trap!" --Before I finally switched to VOIP, $100 phone bills were not uncommon. And that didn't include ISP charges.
I love socialism. Competition is a great idea, but it doesn't work at the huge corporate level, because the big players are too few in number, they can cleverly jack up prices and nobody can sick the government on them to control their rampant greed.
If people were less easily fast-talked by corporate America, if our governing bodies actually served the people who pay for it, then this could be a really beautiful world.
The problem isn't just greed, it's ignorance.
Knowledge protects.
-FL
The patent award doesn't mean you built it or have it working or even thought of it first. It just means you filled out the paperwork first. Then you sit like a leach and suck the blood of the people who actually MADE the idea work. Most of the patents are obvious to anyone, or if highly technical would be obvious to anyone in the field. Very few of the patents over the last 30 or 40 years are truely original or involve any scientific research. Patents were supposed to protect someone inventing something, for example a NEW way to generate energy not to protect the idea of one-clicking on a webpage via the internet. That is just simple, outright theft/blackmail. It sits on top of dozens if not hundreds of PRIOR major techincal innovations. Our politicians should be hung for allowing such bullshit.
The current Slashdot moderation system is made by gay communists!
I do not think that the current system of copper pair POTS telephony prohibits the availability of a reliable 911 service, lets say everything did come through one fibre optic cable (TV, Phone, Internet) and you thus only had an IP address (or several) for your single fibre optic connection, and you use a device attached to that network to dial 911 (or the emergency service number in your respective country) that information would still pass through that fibre to the provider of that fibre optic connection, they would know precisely whom that IP address was allocated to at that moment in time, along with their name and address, so surely it would not be any massive technological hurdle to forward that information on to the emergency services control centre with the IP address, thus when the operator receives the call their system could display the name and address of the originating IP which is I believe much the same thing that happens now with a phone number. I really don't see the problem here, or am I missing something?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
So- is it safe to use the voice-over-air interface I've been using for some time now? It uses a frequency range that the FCC hasn't licensed (yet). I'm also starting to wonder if the USPS is going to run into trouble for using packages- _awfully_ close to packets ...
officially sell your trading name and customer base to a 3rd party in a different country "vonage #2" - this inorder to pay for the settlement ;)
users get a transfer your account type click through agreement.
tell Sprint Nextel that there is really no future revenue stream from calls to be had.
I've been called for both county and federal jury duty. In neither case, can an email get you out of jury duty and for those who are excused, they simply get a deferment for x-number of months.
Without the 2nd Amendment, the others are just suggestions.
Vonage's business plan:
1. Infringe patents held by billion-dollar corps
2. ???
3. Profit!
Idiots. If your outcome expectations were NOT met, boy were you naive.
Umm, socialism doesn't work at the huge corporate level either. All socialism does is merge low and middle class into a single peasant class for easier management by the ruling class. The "big players" are eliminated and replaced by the government. There are no consumers left because individualism and choice is gone...not to mention that they no longer have money. Say hello to Big Brother.
If you love that, there's a guy down in Venezuela who would love to have you.
I did convey to them that I believed that was wrong thinking on thier parts.
Which only convinced them more, because they don't wont people with opinions, all three lawyers (the judge is a lawyer) want sheep.
I looked at the Verizon patents. They involved using a database to look up connection information when transferring VOIP to the telephone network. Using a database to look up information is obvious now and was obvious then.
What Verizon seems to have done is to go to the standards meetings and pick some obvious thing that needed to be done to implement VOIP and patent it. I wonder if Sprint did something similar.
The Supreme Court recently ruled on obviousness related to combining two technologies (e.g., databases and VOIP). The prior rulings by CAFC required some documentation of a motivation to combine. The Supreme Court threw that out and said to look at what PHOSITA (a person having ordinary skill in the art) would know at the time.
I think Vonage should try to bust these patents on obviousness, if they haven't tried already.
Off topic: When you over use the f-word in an argument or berate people's intelligence to make your point, it lessens your appeal. Your comments were obviously informed and well thought out. Though it's the Internet, not everyone has to respond like a know-it-all 10 year old (not meant as in insult, just stating that your reply was on that level). Good luck on further intelligent yet measured posts. ;-)
Sprint is based in Kansas city so I don't see how jurors from KC can be objective.
I read nothing funny there, only starkly depressing truths. But seriously folks, anyone looking at the history of patents will see this all as ... well, "patently" obvious. Not funny at all.
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
We need some Compulsory Licensing here at more reasonable rates. Unless the Telcos can show that they're using those patents in a Directly Competing business, they should be required to license these patents to Vonage At The Best Rate (lowest) that they have licensed them to anyone else. Otherwise they're just using them to avoid competition, which is completely Anti-Consumer. The Patent System is supposed to Improve life for its citizens, not protect entrenched monopolies from new technology!
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
You are right, however, I guess what I was saying is that if your on the go all day long, like maybe the majority of people now days.. what good is it? And if your at home, why not use something like Roger Wilco for free?
"A gentleman never strikes a lady with his hat on." - Fred Allen
My policy is simple. If your company's advertising goes out of its way to be extremely annoying, I will not do business with you. Period. I do not care how "good" your product is; if it needs to be shouted, it can't be any good in the first place.
I think $69.5M sounds about right. That's roughly a dimer for every woohoo I have had to put up with, and a dollar for every time I have nearly thrown something at the TV when the commercial comes on.
Good riddance to old rubbish!
Well, your understanding of socialism goes a long way to explaining why Americans are so ubelievably ignorant of what it means to live in a socialist country. Thank you for clarifying your poorly thought through position.
Umm, socialism doesn't work at the huge corporate level either. All socialism does is merge low and middle class into a single peasant class for easier management by the ruling class. The "big players" are eliminated and replaced by the government. There are no consumers left because individualism and choice is gone...not to mention that they no longer have money. Say hello to Big Brother.
Did you catch the part where I said, "if our governing bodies actually served the people who pay for it"? --Cuz, I like to qualify my statements even while ranting. In any case, with respect to Bell, the socialist system DID work and it worked exceptionally well. Whoever told you that socialism doesn't work was lying to you. --With regard to essential services, it works just fine, thank-you very much. How much do YOU have to pay for hospital visits? How many dumb wars has your military industrial complex hurled you into in order to swipe your tax dollars? How many kids are starving and illiterate in YOUR country?
And I'm certainly not against non-essential services competing. If two companies want to develop two different kinds of communication hardware to compete for the big Bell contract, then that's great. When Bell was under the government's thumb, (My thumb), because we have a nice paper vote here, we got to choose. And the whole, "Individualism and Choice" being threatened argument is just so obviously flawed, and can't believe Americans have been so effectively hog-tied by it. It's an emotional argument used by the dark side to trick people into making dumb choices. (I love how the right call the left 'bleeding hearts' when the right is constantly using emotionalism rather than logic to get its way.) But anyway, how does individualism and choice vanish when the Telco actually does what the people tell it to do? Cuz the reality is this: I don't WANT to have to choose between phone companies. I want the POWER to make one phone company do what I want it to do. --That is, an excellent job for a reasonable price. Having this power to make a difference creates choice. But people seem to fear work; they want companies to come to them to offer Red or Green. Lazy. It takes more effort, but the rewards are higher when you think, "I want Blue and I'm willing to make it happen."
Honestly, do you feel more individual power because you can choose which identical telco screws you? --I felt power when I could call up the CRTC (Canadian Radio & Television Commission) and say, "Hi, I just moved into a new place and Bell is telling me that they aren't going to hook me up unless I pay them $500 in advance because the last tenant didn't pay her bill and they think I'm going to do the same thing. This is ridiculous. I've got a business to run." and have them say, "They said that? They're not allowed to do that. You call them back and tell them that you talked to us. If they keep giving you problems, you call me back right away and I'll fix it." "Thanks!"
Problem solved. This is a true story. --And it happened after de-regulation, too. (Some vestiges of the socialist system haven't entirely eroded. But back in the day, such an ass-backwards problem would never have even come up.)
Man, I remember when Bell's customer service actually HELPED people. They didn't try to screw them. They solved problems. Man, what a great period of time. I miss it.
Which is not to say that the conservative creep isn't doing everything it can to destroy Canada. People, through ignorance, keep getting pulled down the conservative path. I've watched a lot of good things become undone over the last twenty years under conservative rule. Things which cost more now and no longer work properly.
You obviously don't live in Canada. And if you turn off US news (read: "propaganda pushed by threatened American oil interests who have a puppet in the White House") about Chavez, and tune into world news on the subject, you might begin to see Venezuela in a new light. I hear they've go
The fact that you never paid over $25 a month for your phone bill doesn't mean you never paid more than that for your service. Just look at how much money went into maintaining the infrastructure, paying the bureaucrats who ran the system and the amount of waste that existed from having no real fiscal responsibility. Guess what, when those costs exceed that brought in by the (most likely) arbitrarily set rates, the difference is made up by massive taxes. They might as well offer "free" service, it doesn't matter you pay through the roof with taxes anyway. If anything hinders innovation through lack of consumer choice its socialism, and if it weren't for people ignorant enough to support it, we would be rid of those suggesting big government is good.
If you believe that you paid less under your socialist rule, you probably worked for the bureaucracy. Check your taxes, if I make 100k per year I want to come home with 100k per year not 10k because the government needs my 90k to pay for my neighbor's heat and healthcare because he only makes 20k and can't afford it otherwise. Socialism breeds laziness, stifles innovations, and locks people into financial classes, try to prove otherwise, you can't. And your friend Chavez, great country if you want to work, and live, but if you want control over your life, or if you have goals for yourself, or if you want to become wealthy or raise your standard of living from that of your parents, good luck, it's not happening. All that aside, if your socialist health care is go great, why do Canadians come into the US for surgery? Maybe it's because waiting 6 months for a by-pass surgery after a heart attack isn't exactly fantastic. You have been spit right out of the socialist propaganda mill.
Sprint Nextel provides the VOIP dial tone for a large part of the digital phone services provided by Time Warner, Comcast etc.
Also Makes you wonder. I didn't read the patents, nor the case information. But what about Packet8.net. I have been using them as my VOIP provider for 6 years. They are national with all in one phones built for them from Uniden. Why are they not getting sued if it is broad issues within the patents? Just wondering.
I wouldn't assume people aren't home and always busy. Some are, some aren't. We have a large elderaly population which probably isn't very on the go at all.
Roger Wilco doesn't get you a phone number, which some of those on the go people will use to reach you at home. It also ties you a to a computer. With Vonage, my landline phones continue to work as they always have.
Nobody outside Vonage knows what Vonage Holding Corp.'s Novega Venture Partners, Inc. is up to. And if a Vonage employee in the know tells you, they may be subject to termination. Insider tip: Keep watching Vonage stock fall until 1Q08, then buy, buy, buy.
Their future revenue is secure and guaranteed because Novega has developed a truly revolutionary technology.
The next Vonage suit is about a Verizon patent; Verizon has patented resolving a hostname to an IP address in a SIP interaction. These are the kinds of patents that Vonage is up against, and Vonage execs seem committed to taking down the courts and this ridiculous patent system with it. In these suits, Vonage cannot contest the validity of the patents; the only legal question is whether or not the patents have been infringed.
If you believe that you paid less under your socialist rule, you probably worked for the bureaucracy. Check your taxes, if I make 100k per year I want to come home with 100k per year not 10k because the government needs my 90k to pay for my neighbor's heat and healthcare because he only makes 20k and can't afford it otherwise. Socialism breeds laziness, stifles innovations, and locks people into financial classes, try to prove otherwise, you can't. And your friend Chavez, great country if you want to work, and live, but if you want control over your life, or if you have goals for yourself, or if you want to become wealthy or raise your standard of living from that of your parents, good luck, it's not happening. All that aside, if your socialist health care is go great, why do Canadians come into the US for surgery? Maybe it's because waiting 6 months for a by-pass surgery after a heart attack isn't exactly fantastic. You have been spit right out of the socialist propaganda mill.
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Speaking of propaganda. .
Your numbers are way off and they speak of paranoia and hate. --And in Canada our level of taxation is for the most part on par with the U.S., but for the most part, Canadians do not fear helping others. There are system abusers, but they make up only a small quotient, and the benefits of sharing far outweigh the dead weight. But it is very easy to make emotional arguments with stir up feelings of hate, and thereby cause people to get a skewed view of the reality and to adopt conservative policies which in both the long and short term, harm society in countless ways. --I'm speaking as one who has lived in a mostly-socialist system all his life, and I would argue that Canadian freedoms and quality of life is superior to that of the average American. And the ability to accumulate enormous wealth in hardly diminished here due to our system. We've got plenty of incredibly rich people in Canada.
Though, yeah, when it comes to surgery, the wait times can be very long; there are several cases in court right now where the public is suing the government over this matter. --Though it wasn't always like this. Much like the situation with Bell, our government is deteriorating under conservative pressure. --When you don't pay your doctors enough, or help put them through medical school, they are tempted to move to the U.S. where they can engage in fleecing the public. --Is having a corrupt medical industry south of the border a fault of Canada's socialist attitudes? Hardly. But as it stands, when only the very rich can afford top notch medicine, it is greed which is doing the killing. --Watch Michael Moore's "Sicko" to see an in depth analysis of how this works. It's easily his best film to date.
For regular medicine and dentistry, Canada's system is good. --Not as good as France or England, (or Cuba), but not bad. The fact is, if I do have a heart attack, I WILL get the surgery I need, and I won't go bankrupt in the process. I have had the need for emergency room care to stitch me back together on a couple of occasions, and the service was prompt and professional. I have seen many dozens of people need hospital care over the years, and in every case, the care has been prompt and effective. There are many, many more benefits than there are talking point detractors which the conservative government in the U.S. use to insulate the American public from the truth.
The big motivation for maintaining a society which punishes most of the population for not being super-wealthy is greed. --The idea that nobody should care about the people around them and that helping people is somehow a hateful thing leads to exactly the sort of messed up situation in the U.S. Basing a society on Service to Self leads is sold on many false promises.
Ha ha! --While I was typing this, my ex-girlfriend actually called up to tell me that she'd cut the tip of her finger off at bakery she works at. She just had it 'glued' back on, (I don't know the procedure), but it all took place under two
Maybe you should get real VoIP phones that follow open protocols? You were more locked-in with Vonage (or Skype, if people us that), than with a standard Telco. The telco phone equipment follows some standards that will make it work with other telcos. Vonage and Skype have proprietary protocols that render their services more closed than the telcos. You have learnt that lesson after the fact with your phones.
:)
Personally, I use SIP phones from grandstream (and their adapters - found them better than something like Zoom. Linksys (not Cisco) has good products too). SIP is an open standard and I will *never* be locked-in by any VoIP provider, ever. There is plenty of SIPPSTN providers out there. Some even allow you to have a free PSTN -> SIP gateway ( http://ipcall.com/ is an example). Others, have very good pay-as-you-go and/or monthly packages ( http://les.net/ is an example).
Vonage and Skype may be nice phone alternatives for the non-techie crowd, but Slashdot crowd should not even be using these *expensive* and inferior solution.
Your numbers are way off and they speak of paranoia and hate.
My numbers are made up to make a point, in actuality I would pay approximately 47k to the Canadian government if I lived in Ontario, or, in the US I pay approximately 25k to the government. However, numbers so not speak paranoia or hate, that is an absurd statement, but I digress.
Beyond that I have trouble dignifying anyone who claims "Sicko" as an in depth analysis of health care, but I will respond broadly.
There are rich Canadians, however, in a system which takes close to 50% of a persons earnings to pay for "necessary" services and government programs it is nearly impossible to elevate ones self from middle class wealth to upper class wealth. In the US it is possible, 25% of ones earnings is still quite high, however, the competitive market can provide many of these "necessary" services for far less money than that which would be government provided. There are always exceptions, however few and far between. Largely government programs have little accountability as even the elected officials who start them are long out of office before the programs spiral out of fiscal control. My thought, and the primary issue with socialist society is I want to be responsible for myself, and I want to choose where and to whom my money goes.
That said, this has nothing to do with Vonage, so, back to Vonage, the patent office has an important job, however given certain technologies the process of issuing patents needs to be revised, and I don't see it happening anytime soon.
You are right, I should not generalize. I was serious, I am not up to par on my voip info. I need to learn more about this wacky new stuff thats going through my routers. By the looks of it it seems this lawsuit will but a big hit on its advancement.
"A gentleman never strikes a lady with his hat on." - Fred Allen
I suggest you look up what the "M" in MCI stands for, how it got there, and what that ultimately meant for Ma Bell.
Skype I think requires special equipment, but with Vonage you literally get a 4 port router, with two phone jacks in the back. You can use normal telephone cord and connect the port on the router to a port in your house, and if you disconnect the POTS network interface box (very simple, not cutting required usually), you now have phone throughout your house.
No one would even know I have Vonage. I keep the router powered via UPS, and my internet connection also has a battery backup (because the same fiber optic lines could carry phone service, if they weren't more expensive than Vonage).
I agree, this lawsuit is going to hurt. And it sucks, becaus there really isn't any reason for simple phone lines to cost so much except for the greed of existing monopolies.
This is a perfect example ... of how threads derail.
Your language shows who the true idiot is. Software patents should never be granted, much like you cannot claim a patent on a mathematical equation. To add insult to injury (or is it the other way 'round?) these patents are used to destroy innovative products that wouldn't have made it to market otherwise. Too bad, Vonage will be too cash-strapped to replace the infringing code with GPL'd equivalents, but there will be others that learn from the US patent mess, and in time will eat the telcos alive. Long live Richard Stallman, the true hero of our generation!
I would imagine the telcos have a big problem with the voip people using "thier" backbone infrastructure to make money on would-be customers of thier own.
"A gentleman never strikes a lady with his hat on." - Fred Allen