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iPhone Business Model Hits a Snag in France
Serhei writes "It seems like the iPhone might not be released in France by this holiday season, since French requires by law that all cell phones sold there must be obtainable in an unlocked version. Apple will not be able to do so, since it has launched with a 5-year exclusivity agreement with AT&T. That deal will probably require exclusivity worldwide to avoid grey-market imports. (In return for this agreement Apple receives a large share of AT&T's monthly revenues from iPhone subscribers.) If the iPhone falls through in France, the country can join Belgium and a potentially long list of other countries with unlocking laws, whose Apple fans will have to make do with other, less Apple-y phones. Note that there is currently no mention of the iPhone on the Apple France page."
Good for France.
This is excellent, it means those EU countries which won't accept iPhone will have to churn out something thats a whole lot better, this is good news for consumers!
Look at the German page, you'll see that T-Mobile is the exclusive carrier there.
Exclusivity deals with a sub-desirable carrier is working against Apple but "Designed in the USA" is probably hurting them worse in France. Next.
Most of the stuff on
Dear Slashdot community,
Steve Jobs has made a real mistake with the iPhone. It has no keyboard, no third party software, and is locked to one network. Unlike the U.S., the French care about quality. You can tell by the quality they put into the Renault Espace. French want quality. That's why they want a Windows mobile phone.
Very Truly Yours,
Nicolas Sarkozy
President of the French Republic
I find it very hard to believe that Apple Legal did not see this coming.
also- from the link, the "5 year exclusivity agreement with AT&T" is only for US Distribution.
I like microcars
Wasn't there a case this year and a law passed where phone could legally be unlocked by the consumer. Cell phones and printers
Yes, we know. This should frankly be all of Europe since the laws governing this thing are QUITE clear to us now, now that everyone and their brother on this site has given us quite the legal education with regard to cell phone unlocking in the EU. I'm sure Apple with either comply with the law or just not sell iPhones in jurisdictions where they feel they can't comply with the law. They generally don't act quite like Microsoft in the "I don't care what the law says, I'm MICROSOFT!" way. From the sound of it though, it seems no one in Europe will care, because they apparently don't want iPhones, they want phones that do X Y and Z that an iPhone doesn't do. Apple's so dead.
Do we need 50 BILLION stories about this? "OMG IPHONE SUX, APPLE SUX 2 LOL" I'm expecting to be the next story down the pike. How many of you people are so stupid as to buy an iPhone, when anyone who bothered to look saw that it was locked into AT&T even in the months and month of preview hype.
But couldn't Apple have just prevented this whole mess if they had charged like $1500 for the iPhone, and offered a $750 mail-in rebate for purchasers who signed a 5-year contract with AT&T?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
The summary is a bit off on that point. But I imagine Apple will still hold out, with Orange, for the best deal they can leverage.
Americans are Der Juden
Consumer protection, how last century dahling.
In the end, the iPhone has turned out to be a real disaster.
It sold a million units in 75 days. How can I make my next product a "disaster" like that?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
More iPhone news? Does Britney Spears know about this? I guess not, if she did we would seeing it on CNN along with her little dogs too.
Look, Apple has their business model, their attorneys have assessed it, and Apple is going ahead with what they think they can make the biggest buck. Will they win in the end? IMHO they will. I can't see a business as savvy as Apple making some dumb marketing mistake that is going to cripple their iPhone line in any given country. They made their mistakes long ago with Apple III/Lisa and/or other lines and have done nothing but win consumers over since then. The iPhone is a tremendous jump over standard cell phones and will lead the way for the foreseeable future. Their staff attorneys are ready and willing to fight any argument that France or anyone else will throw at them. Personally, I'll wait until they have matured their market to the point I don't have to worry about bricking or contracts tied to a specific provider.
I reserve the right to think for myself. Others' opinions are optional. Puppy on lap = typos...not illiteracy.
With a potential of several billion phones, I'd sat not that good. But then again, a lot of people will always buy new stuff, and of course all the Apple fanbois. It will be more interesting to see the sales figures over the first few years and then form a more valid opinion than based on the first 75 days.
Personally, I was interested in the iPhone, but I'm an old fox, so I decided to wait and see and right now, I will never buy one. I don't like the way Apple and AT&T did this, nor do I like what is currently happening, so I vote with my wallet.
If you mod me down, I *will* introduce you to my sister!
This has nothing to do with AT&T.
Apple has already announced an exclusive deal in France with Orange (France telecom), and it's this deal that is in danger because of the law. Apple is partnered with T-mobile in Germany and O2 in Britain, so this really isn't about any worldwide exclusivity for AT&T.
AppleInsider's report on this situation.
Only months from now, the other companies competing on the cellphone market will release their brand new iPhone clones (Nokia, looking at you).
What is the iPhone? It's just a phone with nice easy interface on a large touchscreen. It's not terribly hard to copy, nor is it illegal.
If Apple decided not to sell in France and other countries because it can't have 100% exclusivity with one provider, the other companies will fill their niche just fine. The only loser is Apple themselves.
It's not a disaster yet. I have at least two users at the office with iPhone and they are 'in love' with them for the moment. One even converted to Mac in the process. They are "forgiving" of all the shortcomings encountered thus far. Somehow the "coolness" outweighs the negatives for the moment.
So they will just get those cheap Chinese "clone phones" instead?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
How exactly is that so? Isn't that the point of a law like that, to prevent forceful vendor lock-down of certain phones, much in the way we experience in the US? For all I care, Apple should burn in hell, though. I'd rather keep Microsoft around :(
I do believe the iPhone's edge is exclusively the UI, which Apple masters like no other computer manufacturer.
Good ol'e Steve is convinced, however, that only a tied-up customer can be conveniently milked, and therefore will also bundle it with an exclusive operator contract.
European customers were already fed up with the local operators, who were milking them to death via international roaming, before being forced to lower the price by an EU regulation (think of the FCC ever doing something like that...) not to go for even more getting handcuffed...
Will I buy the iPhone when it comes to Belgium? Certainly not.
Will I miss something? Ditto.
What I am actually looking for right now is an open source cellphone with 4G technology, so that I may write my own stuff, not a locked tin can which will burn like a interocitor (This Island Earth, remember?)...
And if it burns when I open it, then I want a free saucer ride, not a mail-in rebate...
The Force actually is with me.
For $3 a month Apple does a lot of things for iPhone customers that AT&T or other carriers have to do themselves for other phones. For example, if your iPhone needs service you call AppleCare not 611.
The exclusivity is so the phone companies don't get to rape iPhone customers financially. Before you get to carry the iPhone you have to agree to flat-rate data and reasonable voice plans. Even though the iPhone is by far the most popular smart phone, it has the cheapest device plans. Treo users can choose carriers but they always pay much more.
But then again it's easier just to parrot what you read on the Internet instead of thinking about it for like 10 minutes.
Well, let's just say I was going to buy a Macbook for my next laptop (in a year or so), and it was going to be my first (non-secondhand) Apple purchase, if for nothing else, because it's the only laptop that can claim to run three major operating systems natively. But with all the bad things I am hearing about Apple, esp. with the iPhone and other vendor-locking tactics, I am now not very likely to make that Macbook purchase.
And, oh, I'm going to be telling all my friends about it too.
For those of US in the UK, let's campaign to copy them in this law, we could adopt their policy on the Monarchy too, we better get sharpening... ;)
My little Linux and tech blog
...what are the terms of the deal that made Apple so giddy about 'locking in' with AT&T for FIVE YEARS!!!
The argument is that Apple obviously has legal counsel who foresaw all of these problems (risk of class action, being made illegal in certain countries, etc...)
Yet they do not have any problem doing this for what (in hardware evolution time) is several lives long, and they are basically risking everything on this gamble.
What could it be that made the pot so sweet that they went with this deal on a debut product?
And on the opposite side of the coin, what could have been so incredibly bad about offering the phone unlocked with a SIM card slot
that they, -who pride themselves in public for being so 'open'- did not see that as a viable option?
Do they act so arrogant that they don't even want to please all of the international travelers who swap SIM cards
every time they arrive in a new country? Someone, please drop some science on us. As it is, it makes no logical sense.
(Oh yeah, and BTW Steve, if you happen to read this, just email me the 411 directly...! KTHXBYE)
Z.
You, sir, should obviously be in charge of Apple Corp. fortwith. I shall immediately write a letter to the shareholders so that they will demand you be hired, first thing Monday.
Forthwith, of course. It's 1 am where I am, and I haven't had enough coffee, please bear with me.
With all the corporate-induced environmental disasters, wars, etc. in the world, that people would find something more important to get excited about than the terms and conditions for a cell phone.
How can I make my next product a "disaster" like that?
First, you want to be obligated to buy twice as many as you actually need. This doubles your production cost. Apple was in negotiations to cut production in half just a month after the launch.
Next, you want to be forced to drop the price of your product to sell what you are contractually obligated to buy.... Let's say from $599 down to $399. With a raw materials cost of $250 per unit, you can totally blow the other $150 on packaging, shipping, advertising, support, and your fixed development expenses. If you do it right, you might even be able to loose money on each unit sold.
Finally, you really want to piss off the handful of people that do buy your product so they'll never buy anything from you again. Make sure you do things to really anger the most enthusiastic fans you have. Illegally void their warrantees, "brick" their product with an update, that sort of thing.
There, that should do it. And if your company depends on the success of the product, all the better. That way, when the numbers hit Wall Street, your stock will plummet and the investors will demand your head on a plate and start filing lawsuits.
-fan
when LG are just about to release their new VX10000 mobile phone that leaves the Apples offerings for dead. People forget the iPhone does not support 3G and most users in Europe and Asia now want 3G. If you have 3G then you want a proper QWERTY keyboard and the VX10000 has one of those too and you can change your battery and add more storage with a MicroSD card all features missing on the iPhone.
I am just waiting for my current cell phone to die. Then it is iPhone all the way. I do not think Apple selling more than a million iPhones in the U.S. alone is a disaster. Even without the price cut, I would probably be looking to buy. Not that this affects my computer purchasing any. My inherited MacBook runs great. If I had money in the budget, I would be buying a 24-inch Aluminum iMac to replace my aging desktop. Nah, the iPhone is doing fine. Apple is doing fine. And the kids are all right.
If i were to meet steve jobs right now i would slap him.
I'm in the UK and have yet to see an iPhone, apart from the touch screen, can someone explain to me exactly why the iPhone is superior to my current one: a Nokia 6070; a low to mid range phone. Given that, how can it possibly be better than something like an N95; a high end phone. The only real feature I can see from the apple website is the touch screen, not really my priority in a phone. I just want something that can make calls, and send the odd SMS. Having a camera and a radio in my phone are bonuses that I hardly ever use (actually, that's a lie I've started to use the radio quite a bit recently). The only other way that apple tries to show it's differences are via it's ability to sync to my PC, but even my phone can (and does) do that with a data cable and software from Nokia.
If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
Vista has sold many times that number of units but that doesn't stop people from saying it isn't popular and/or a disaster.
I bet the French even mandate that you use Arabic numerals on all cell phones. ;-)
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
Well, with over 2 billion cell phones in circulation in January 2006, I would imagine the number have increases somewhat, so yes the total world market is a few billion. http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=707714
If you mod me down, I *will* introduce you to my sister!
I'd say the UI. After playing with the N95 I came to conclude that Nokia's UI designers must be blind and got another phone instead.
Let's look at the factors going against the iPhone grabbing the entire mobile phone market: A company with zero reputation in the mobile phone market (1) releases a very expensive (2) 3G (3) smartphone (4) whose main selling argument is its nice UI (5).
Even if you exclude those who prefer a simple phone over a smartphone, thus eliminating problem number 4, you still have four very solid reasons against buying an iPhone vs. buying another mobile. It's expensive. It doesn't do UMTS or HSDPA. It's not quite robust. It doesn't have killer features not found in cheaper mobiles. Apart from being insanely stylish, the iPhone jut doesn't have much going for it towards capturing the whole market.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
I hate French; not the first time they make us look so stupid.
All Apple has to do is make it so iPhones sold outside the US cannot be updated or synched with iTunes in the US. iTunes knows from your IP what country you are in.
Sure, there are proxys, but this would shut out 99% of the problem. People couldn't just buy an iPhone in Europe and use it here theyd have to know what they were doing.
France was the second last country in Europe to introduce wireless number portability.
The French government was protecting their incumbent carrier --- don't ever think that they were protecting French consumers.
In the "famous" 74 days that sold a million iPhones, there were 3.5 million Windows Mobile phones sold. There were 11 million Windows Mobile devices sold last year with a projected 20 million for this year. That means even Microsoft's platform will double Steve's goals for iPhone sales (and most don't regard Windows Mobile as being a home-run to date). Headlines don't count; sales do.
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
Finland allows simlocked 3G phones, but they disallowed locked 2G phones.
You're post reveals you aren't in the demographic the iPhone is marketed to. It's easy to say "I don't need this" and "I don't do this" but all you are saying is that you are not in the marketing demographic of someone who would buy a smartphone or an iPhone. If you just make calls and text message, then you are in a completely different category of customers. Personally, I think the iPhone is overhyped as well, but even so it's aimed at different user base. The touch screen, the camera, and all that other good stuff IS what makes the iPhone "better" to the consumer who is looking for that sort of thing.
I feel like Apple is becoming nothing different than Microsoft.. Looks like there wouldn't be a better world even if Bill Gates wasn't born..
In the "famous" 74 days that sold a million iPhones, there were 3.5 million Windows Mobile phones sold
Wow. So, from a standing start, by your figures, selling only in one country, Apple grabbed between a quarter and a third of the whole smart phone market, from a competitor who's had their product out there for several years?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
My wife now has my T-mobile Blackberry and I've upgraded
(a significant upgrade) to the iPhone - I've seen nothing better
anywhere for the price anywhere - not even Europe or France.
I held my nose and signed up for the $39.99 ATT plane plus
unlimited web/email for $20 more and am delighted so far.
Granted, the best option would be to just put my T-Mobile SIM
in the iPhone, just like I put it in my Blackberry. Perhaps in 2
years U.S phones will have unlocking like elsewhere, but in
the meantime, I got the best phone for the best price and
am "testing the waters" with "the new" ATT.
What's past is NOT ALWAYS prologue for the future!
I am a Canadian and even I will say that the French are doing something right here. What genius of man said "Lets make it law to have all phones unlock!"? I would give that man a French ki........ well I would give him a big pat on the back and hug, that is for sure!
To see a few of my Android apps goto: www.hartwired.com
My experience with my iPhone, B;acckberry and other
phones is that wifi is where it's at - far superior to 3G.
Does Treo support wifi? If not yours is far from an
Apple-to-Apple comparison (no pun intended).
What's past is NOT ALWAYS prologue for the future!
Now hold on a minute, yeah the iPhone is way cool and Mac is way cool, but how long will it last, they are trying so hard t squeeze money out of people, that when someone finally says, "here is hardware equivalent to the iPhone!" and the Open Source says "Here is software that blows Mini Mac OS X out of the water." I will only need a guy in a turtle neck to say "Look at this! Very cool eh?" Coma on Open Moko.......don't let us down!
To see a few of my Android apps goto: www.hartwired.com
No mention on Apple France. So what? There's none on the Apple Canada page either. This isn't evidence of anything going forward. If there was an agreement, the page would be updated that day.
"Designed in the USA" is probably hurting them worse in France.
Actually Apple is popular in France, major executives have been French.
You might also check up on current events, when French and German citizens got to vote the results turned out a bit different than what the mass media wanted to portray. Candidates friendly to the US won.
When I was in Paris last year I was treated very well. Even though my French language skills are nearly non-existent. Disagreeing with a government's policy decision does not translate into a population hating companies or citizens.
It sold a million units in 75 days. How can I make my next product a "disaster" like that?
By branding it Apple.
Wake me up when it hits 50 million (or 12 million in 90 days). Any product that a big company like Apple put out is going to sell a load, and given how much advertising it gets (I don't see daily RAZR stories here on Slashdot), it's very telling how its average sales are.
Vous n'êtes pas Français.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
Before I started using iPhone, I thought that the lack of 3G was a minor disappointment in the design. After using it a few months, I realized that I'm in a WiFi hotspot so often that I really don't miss 3G. The applications perform well enough over EDGE to use them when I need to do that, which isn't very often. Sure, 3G would be great, and I'll be excited when the iPhone 3G happens, but the lack of this feature really is a simple design trade-off right now, and I get a better battery life in the current device in the trade. I get a great deal more use out of iPhone on a single charge than I ever did any previous cell phone, even the Motorola RAZR, and that phone was useful only for talking due to the poor quality or poor performance of the other features of the phone. iPhone WiFi is faster now than the fastest mapped out 3G protocols, and far faster than most current 3G implementations. WiFi was the right design choice for this device at this time. Apple figured that out by doing what they generally do with these choices. They stepped back from their gut level geek cool factor emotional response to the newest hottest technology, 3G, which you know they all wanted in this phone, and they said, OK, what do ordinary people really want? Fast, plus battery life. How do we give them both, in a world where 3G chipsets slurp too much juice? Wifi + EDGE.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
You asked how to make your product a disaster by selling a million units. I told you how. Units sold is about as effective as MHz as a measure of performance. It doesn't tell the whole story, and the story in Apple's case will be told in another week or so. Q4 conference call is due soon. AAPL is going to get murdered if their core business doesn't make up for the slack iPhone sales.
Do you think they even managed a million units this quarter? If they only moved 730,000 units in 72 days I'd be really surprised. It is looking like 900,000 in 90 days to me. Maybe they had some explosive demand for iPhones in the last half of the September, but I wouldn't bank on Apple having sold one million phones this quarter. Even if they do, it's still bad news. They did it at $399 per unit. Any way you look at it, it's a major revenue shortfall.
Bad news for a company hoping to sell 10 million in the first year. I'm sure Steve will dress it up though and say 1.2 Million since the debut, because 5-10% under one million is going to sound really bad for a company with a 51 PE ratio. The only way they can maintain numbers like that is to maintain the "growth stock" image. You do remember how Wall Street received the news about the cube don't you?
Over the last 10 years AAPL has been an unreal performer. They're a f'ing stock market superstar. Nobody can touch that record. But I believe they will be taking their lumps with the iPhone. No need to argue about it, we'll know in a few more days.
I'm not really sure why this myth continues to propagate. iPhone has a SIM slot. iPhone has a SIM slot. It's visible on the top of the phone, with a tiny pin hole. Inserting a pin or paper clip ejects the SIM card from the slot. You can use this SIM in any other GSM phone.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
I had no idea, first I've heard of it, that's a lifetime in technology years.
That's one of the most stupid things I've ever heard of, how could Apple paint themself into a corner like that?
(No, I'm not a pro-unlock person, I can see why they did it but for such a long period of time? Utter stupidity)
The advantage that this gives French phone companies, instead, is to create a similar device and establish it as the de-facto standard. If, over a period of five years, a comparable smartphone established itself as the standard in businesses, it would be more difficult for businesses to make the switch to the iPhone due to software incompatibilities, and the expectations the users would have of the interface.
The idea would be to use this time to create a phone "just different enough" to be incompatible and steal the iPhone's place in the market before the iPhone ever gets there.
"It seems like the iPhone might not be released in France by this holiday season, since French requires by law that all cell phones sold there must be obtainable in an unlocked version." It's the first bloody sentence.
If this is true, it's going to scupper the UK deal as well. You don't have to provide the phone unlocked in the UK, but you do have to unlock it for the customer for no charge at the end of the contract -- which may be well before the end of the original contract period if, for example, charges go up during the contract.
So someone on their laptop with no internet connection couldn't synch with their phone?
:-)
Can't see that working so well
There are other ways to judge the magnitude of the business success which iPhone achieved. AT&T said that they've never had a device launch sell so many units, ever. That's pretty amazing when you think about it. The Motorola RAZR, which is now one of the most popular phones (if not the most popular phone) on the market, had a massive PR campaign which preceded its launch, just like iPhone. The devices which have been launched prior to iPhone were launched by established players using established distribution channels.
Here's another interesting bit... Google the two phones, iPhone, and RAZR.
Results 1 - 10 of about 174,000,000 for iphone. (0.06 seconds)
Results 1 - 10 of about 17,700,000 for RAZR. (0.12 seconds)
Clearly there must be some amount of grass roots level interest in iPhone, which doesn't exist for the Motorola RAZR phone which was probably the hottest selling single model of phone for most of 2005 and 2006. (Nokia's response to the RAZR hegemony was to proliferate models and offer a wider array of "choice", basically external styling with features randomly mixed and matched in ways that made little sense. The strategy, combined with software that, in general, sucked less than the RAZR software, worked.)
Motorola Loses Cell Phone Market Share to Samsung and Nokia
The established players compete in a very dynamic market, with relatively large shifts in market position every year or so. Apple might well capture an interesting portion of that market. Sure, a few geeks like us are pretty annoyed by the twisted nature of the cell phone market, with private networks and exclusive vendor lock-in contracts. The bulk of the market doesn't yet have the sophistication to be aware of the possibilities. Or maybe they do. Maybe they see the worthless pile of poo which is the virus laden botnet zombie PC in their den, and they realize that the trade offs might be worth it. If cell phone networks remain free of this plague, maybe just maybe it's worth it for my phone to remain useful without the consumer spending untold zillions of hours "keeping it secure". Maybe they give up their freedoms willingly, in exchange for a device that "just works" quite a bit better than their home PC. OK, I doubt that there is this level of conscious analysis going on. OK, there clearly isn't. But it was a fun little thought experiment, before I woke up just now. Anyway, the market doesn't care about the things that tick you, and a handful of other gadget geeks, off. iPhone will continue to be an amazing market success, if Apple continues to build successive generations of the device which continue to improve in capability and performance, as they have done with the Macintosh and the iPod. You really don't need to wait for a few years of market data to see where this is going.
iPhone success is nearly as much a story about the *failure* of these previous phones to satisfy the cell phone using public as it is about the iPhone itself. Sure, iPhone isn't perfect, but it's already solved a number of problems that plagued previous phones, and you are already seeing the other cell phone vendors trying to catch up. iPhone software has been updated 3 times already. How many times has the crap software on the RAZR been updated? Exactly zero. To get newer firmware on a RAZR you have to flash it yourself with underground grey market flash images and risk bricking the phone, mind you, or *buy a new phone*. The first many millions of consumers who bought the RAZR had to contend with serious software defects over the life of the device that could not be fixed. Well, which the vendor(s) refused to fix, really. Consumers have been burned by previous love affairs with phones made by companies that thought their customer was the cell phone company, not the cell phone user.
Finally, there is the price of AAPL, compared to vendors of other cell phone platf
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
Good grief. You know you already own a MacBook Pro, you just can't use it in public or the board will have your ass in a sling. Bummer, dude.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
For me, there is only one reason why I choose the iPhone over my old T-Mobile MDA Windows Mobile phone, the Safari web browser. Combined with the WiFi, it turns my phone into a viable replacement for mobile web surfing. It is the best mobile browser I've used to date.
In the whole smart phone market Windows Mobile is also a small player. Symbian had 72% market share and sold 18.7 million in Q2 http://www.symbian.com/about/fastfacts/fastfacts.html
But since the iPhone is not really a smart phone it should be compared to the whole cellphone market which is about 1 Billion per year!
In Denmark we have a law that against locking a phone for more than 6 months (this is also the maximum contractual binding period), that means that companies can't get away with deceptive tactics where the initial cost of the phone is 0 and the calls and subscription fees fleece the consumers forever.
I can see why asshole companies want to have the option to screw over the customers, but it must take a very special kind of thinking to want to get screwed over like this.
The lack of permanently locked phones mean that we have absolutely fierce competition in the mobile phone market, that has lead to great prices and a large selection of cool phones, not the current soviet-like lack of selection that you seem to be enjoying in the US right now.
If Apples shortsighted deal with AT&T will not allow the iPhone to be sold legally in Europe, then that's entirely Apples loss and I'm also sure that the 5 year head start will make it easy for someone to come up with an iPhone killer.
Don't discount the possibility that Apple simply builds a blacklist of all US carriers except AT&T and loads that on the iPhones that are destined for Europe.
-- To dream a dream is grand, but to live it is divine. -- Leto ][
Why doesn't Apple just disable support for the American frequency bands? Seems like a simple solution, yet no one here seems to have mentioned it. Should be no problem since GSM/EDGE/3G use different frequencies outside of the US.
On Belgian News it was broadcast that Belgian Apple fans went to the US, bought the phone and then unlocked them and are now using them.
Below some URL's that are untested:
http://iphone.unlock.no/
http://www.dvdtoiphone.net/unlock-iphone.html
http://www.unlockiphone.info/
Google will give you much more links
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
.. When you buy a mobile phone... let them go through the process of registering and "locking" it (they do this WITHOUT telling you usually sneakly... BEFORE you hand over your money, ask them to try it again.. plop in YOUR alterntaive SIM card, then when it wont work, hand it back and say you dont want it because it doesnt work :)
They have now a DEAD phone as they registered and locked it. The sales guy is in the deep shit now :)
Walk out grinning :) If enough people do that, the stores have to go through A LOT of hassle to get rid of those phones as USED devices, its not so easy to unregister them and unlock them :)
http://www.rense.com/general79/wdx1.htm
Nokia sell that many units every single day.
Apple are nowhere.
You people are fools. AT&T doesn't really care if iPhone's are exclusively theirs. They'll get their new contracts from merely the appearance of exclusivity and maybe the visual voice mail. In fact AT&T earns *more* money when an iPhone user buys and unlocked French phone because, in that case, they don't pay Apple squat! Apple itself is the loser if Americans use grey market French iPhones.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
You know the iPhone will remain only EDGE noy 3G in Europe. Outdated is putting it mildly.
It'll be sweet if he EU has Nokia's clone first. Nokia's clone might not have quite as slick a user interface. But I'll bet al the Nokia lovers prefer it. And there's no doubt it'll have way way more features.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
Slow 3G (eg UMTS 384kbps) is already old here in Europe. Mobile professionals are already demanding fast 3.5G (eg HSDPA 1.8-14.4mbps). HSDPA offers not only higher bandwidth but also lower latency than UMTS (latency is *the* major problem in mobile networks used for Internet, try SSHing over mobile as I do every day and you will notice a big difference compared to fixed connections). 2.5G (GPRS 53kbps) is not really used by serious users, just like 2.75G (eg EGPRS 236kbps), except for backup purposes.
..."protecting" the consumer from being able to buy an iPhone at all. Total Newspeak.
I'd rather be "at the mercy" of Apple and have the option to choose what restrictions I'll submit myself to than have a monolithic bureaucracy (however you want to spin it) decide for me.
But then, that's always been the difference between freedom and socialism.
Note here the brainwashed drone defending a socialist policy which restricts consumer choice by attempting to redefine every word of the criticism.
Total lunacy -- but all indefensible cults use milieu control that seems insane when viewed by outsiders.
The 6070 is a decent Series 40 phone. If you are OK with the low rez screen for e-mail and web access, and the somewhat crappy audio support, then this is most likely a better choice for you than the iPhone.
The N95 is a feature-rich Series 60 phone. If you are OK with a dog slow user interface, the phone crashing every now and then, owning a Windows XP/Vista PC for updating the somewhat buggy software every couple of months, and the somewhat crappy audio support, then this may be a better choice for you than the iPhone. The GPS functionality in the N95 is quite well done, so if you're a heavy user of TomTom or the like, and looking to upgrade both your GPS device and your phone, and you can live with the crappy software, then this could be a good choice for you.
The best Nokia phone currently available IMHO is the 6290. Folding 3G S40 with a decent feature set. Some units have problems sending attachments in e-mail (they plain old reboot) even with the latest software, and the battery life is in practice modest at best. We got one for the wife a couple of weeks ago and she's been reasonably happy.
Nokia does have the tech and the know-how to do an iPhone killer, but since they are trying to kill the S40 to favor the more expensive S60 software platform, they will never be able to make it. Certainly none of their current offerings compete with the key points of the iDevice: regular-Joe usability for the selected features that are available, and coolness.
When you buy a mobile phone... let them go through the process of registering and "locking" it (they do this WITHOUT telling you usually sneakly... BEFORE you hand over your money, ask them to try it again.. plop in YOUR alterntaive SIM card, then when it wont work, hand it back and say you dont want it because it doesnt work :) They have now a DEAD phone as they registered and locked it. The sales guy is in the deep shit now :) Walk out grinning :)
Hmmm... great. I like this idea.
But won't the sales people do this registering and stealth "locking" only _after_ the customer has signed a contract?
Depends on how much you are good at the gift of the gab :)
One sales person was going to lock it, i said RATHER LOUDLY IN THE BUSY STORE I AM NOT PAYING X amount for a CRIPPLED PHONE.
He was very very embarassed at my inability to CONTROL THE LOUDNESS OF MY VOICE (must have been the freezing process :) ) so he give in and did not lock it, I even confirmed this by my own collection of Sims (subscriptionless anonymous SIM's :) ).
http://www.rense.com/general79/wdx1.htm
Also, we have a COOLING OFF PERIOD where if we do not want to continue the contract withing weeks or a month or so, we can return it for a cancellation and refund :)
I do love consumer friendly laws. So we can sign the contract, get the locked phone, then return it :) One used crippled useless phone later that has been subsidised by the mobile phone operator. Customer churn is deadly to mobile operators, Also a good rebargening tool for a new better contract.
http://www.rense.com/general79/wdx1.htm
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
... it's about the conflict between a manufacturer who locks down all their phones, and local laws that forbid it. We'll soon get to see what happens when a highly influential company with a *highly* desirable product clashes with consumer protection laws they don't like. Sure, there have been a few cases like this before, but it's always interesting to watch.
You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
Normally I would agree on most things with respect to competition being better in the US. HOWEVER, with respect to cellular phones the US has its head up its own arse. The telcos in the US just don't get it, and neither does the government. Year after year the US is behind the world's market and why? Simple because of point 1.
Europe, and not just the EU got this one right. They understood that to grow the pie you need to be open and allow choice. You need to allow people to choose whatever phone, and plan they want.
With respect to profit, dude, you are really wrong here. The North American telcos when compared to cell phone business only are not that large. If you look at the bottom lines Voda phone, Orange, T-Mobile are doing pretty well.
Now with respect to plans and getting good ones. Well, you are taking an extremely biased perspective.
For example the following is considered a plus (T-Mobile)
* No nationwide long-distance or roaming charges (BTW this is free throughout Europe)
And why do people have to pay for incoming calls? And what about roaming charges outside of the US? Compare how much you would pay if you were to travel from the US to Canada. Then very quickly you would see how expensive things get.
My point is that you should get to know both sides of the issue before saying Europe does not get it. Again while I normally do think North America is ahead in technology, when it comes to cell technology North America is behind the times...
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
they will eventually come to their right mind -or be forced by law- to open up the iPhone and thus be able to release it in every country they want. Switzerland isn't going to get an iPhone either, if they stick with their stupid lock-in policy.
I don't know how it works in your part of the world, but here in the UK they don't even register the mobile phone as sold until such time as you've signed a contract.
So we have the weak point (or, one of the weak points, resp.?) of the scheme here. ;-)
Thanks for clarifying.
And why would I want a free market for corporations? I'm human, not a corporation, I don't benefit from a free market per se. Only corporations do.
This seems to be a foreign concept to many people here, but in most countries, humans elect humans who then put in place rules to benefit humans. A free market is only a good thing as long as it does not hurt humans. Forcing providers to unlock phones helps me, because when I go to Italy or France or Germany, I can put a pre-paid card into my cell phone and not get screwed with insane roaming costs.
The funny part is that, of course, our laws eventually will help you, too. Apple can't ignore Europe. They will release a phone that can be unlocked. And then you'll be able to import it back to the U.S.
No, don't. You can thank us later, when you get your unlocked iPhone, curtesy of European laws.
> Uh, since when is being opposed to a racist, oil-fueled war not honourable?
Nothing in the history of France would suggest that it would especially oppose an racist, oil-fueled war. Even if was so rather than just an incompetent son trying to outdo his fathers achievements.
The opposition from France was more likely due to the war not promoting French interest in the region, a desire to keep a good relationship with Germany, and the incredible diplomatic incompetence of the US administration. Most political commentators here at the time expected France to join the coalition eventually (after some posturing) as they usually do, but Donald Rumsfelt made it impossible for France to do so without losing face. Only an incredible stubbornness on the side of Tony Blair prevented Rumsfelt from also kicking UK out of the coalition.
In Switzerland, and I'm pretty sure that's the case in a lot of European countries, phone manufacturer don't make "plans".
Instead phone are sold "as-is", without any lock at all.
You either pay them for the full price.
Or you can get a rebate (significant), if you sign a new contract or extend your previous contract with a cell-phone carrier for 1 or 2 years (the amount of rebate depends on the terms and length of contract).
From now then you can pretty much do anything you want with your phone. You can put whatever SIM card of which ever carrier you want, or even give the phone as a present to someone else. The only thing you're supposed to do is pay the monthly fee of your newly signed contact. Or pay back part of the rebate if you terminate the contract before a given date.
Prepaid (tariffs without a fixed monthly rate) is pretty much the only thing where you can find SIM-locked phones.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
>I'm not really sure why this myth continues to propagate. iPhone has a SIM slot.
The slot is not of much use when the phone is locked to a specific SIM card. Which is what the GP complained about. Switching to a local SIM card when you come to a new country will of course save you a lot of money, when the phone will refuse to operate. But keeping your phone turned off will save you the same amount, and be much simpler.
Here's the difference between my previous phone, a P990i, and my current phone, the iPhone: The P990i had more features, but it annoyed me at every step. It crashes, its UI is complicated and slow, and it eats battery. The iPhone has less features on paper, but in reality, I use more features because they are a pleasure to use. I don't have to think about WiFi, it just works. The browser starts up fast, and reading "real" web pages on the phone works very well. The way it displays SMS is genious (to be fair, my pre-previous phone, a Treo 650, did it the same way). I could go on, but here's the difference: The iPhone is a pleasure to use, and pretty much everything works, and works the way you expect it to. This is the first phone I've ever owned of which I could say this.
What the hell is wrong with you. Do you seriously think what you wrote is a legitimate counterpoint to my post? Do you have any clue about how to construct an argument? Seriously? I mean, you sound like a carricature. You can't be serious. Right? Oh, it's a joke. HAHA! Good one.
given how much advertising it gets (I don't see daily RAZR stories here on Slashdot)
Well, I do see RAZR adverts pretty much daily here in the UK, but have yet to see any iPhone ads. That's not entirely fair I guess as it's not available for another month or so, but still.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
True - sorry, I mean more the "free" advertising and hype. The way that the media will cover anything that Apple does (whether it's Slashdot, or mainstream media), whilst ignoring all the bigger players in the mobile market. Or it seems that way to me, maybe I've just been missing coverage of other phones.
I'm living in Hong Kong, I have noticed lately that (and i got one myself) unlocked IPhones are all over the place here, it is open to use with any local carrier you wish.
I'll give them that one -- I really don't want to see bus stop ads with "Need a refinance? Call I-DCCC-DCCCLXVII-_VCCCIX"...
That's 1-800-867-5309 for the Roman numeral impaired. I have no idea how the Romans could do their engineering while dealing with that shit.
Mal-2
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
I can't reasonably believe that Apple or AT&T and their coven of lawyers could reason that their contractual obligations could supersede the laws of an entire nation. Of course, they could get by this by not releasing the iPhone in non-profit friendly countries, but wouldn't that suck for all of the international fanboys - or should I saw éventez les garçons -Palumbo
Customer: Ah. UK?
Wenslydale: Sorry.
Customer: Germany? Belgum?
Wenslydale: No.
Customer: In Norway, per chance.
Wenslydale: No.
Customer: Lyra?
Wenslydale: No.
Customer: Spain?
Wenslydale: No.
Customer: Sweden?
Wenslydale: No.
Customer: Russia, Italy, Poland, Vatican, Switzerland, Finland, Hungary, , Nertherlands?
Wenslydale: No.
Customer: France, perhaps?
Wenslydale: Ah! We have France, yessir.
Customer: (suprised) You do! Excellent.
Wenslydale: Yessir. It's..ah,.....it's a bit pricey...
Customer: Oh, I like it pricey.
Wenslydale: Well,.. It's very pricey, actually, sir.
Customer: No matter. Fetch hither the iPhonede la Belle France! Mmmwah!
Wenslydale: I...think it's a bit pricier than you'll like it, sir.
Customer: I don't care how fucking pricey it is. Hand it over with all speed.
Wenslydale: Oooooooooohhh........!
Customer: What now?
Wenslydale: The cat's eaten it.
Customer: (pause) Has he.
Wenslydale: She, sir.
(pause)
Guns are for wimps... Use a crossbow.. this way you can pin them to their chair when you go postal.
Not the case: the contract is limited to the domestic (US) market: in the UK, the iPhone is exclusive to O2. In France and other countries with similar laws, Apple will simply be denied the option of offering an exclusive contract to any particular company.
There are countries where there is no AT&T. I know, blew my mind too.
...because "hacker" sounds way sexier than "code drone."
Well, that's interesting. Usually, the argument is that the iPhone lacks essential features. So, which features (apart from the stock tracker, I guess) are "gimmicky features that no-one really wants"?
Zonk before you just spout off about something do some research. Apple is already releasing the Iphone in Europe on the O2 network and the last time I check O2 has nothing to do with ATT. Knucklehead!
Apple is much more closed than microsoft, because microsoft at least has embraced the OPEN pc platform.
I recently bought a dell laptop for 850 with 3 year warranty. A macbook (not even pro) with the same stuff (ram, hard disk,warranty etc) would have cost slightly more than twice as much: 1770 euros.