Slashdot Mirror


Apple Adds Memory Randomization To Leopard

.mack notes a ZDNet blog outlining some of the security features added to OSX Leopard (10.5). Here's Apple's brief description of all 11 new security features. "Apple has announced plans to add code-scrambling diversity to Mac OS X Leopard, a move aimed at making the operating system more resilient to virus and worm attacks. The security technology, known as ASLR (address space layout randomization), randomly arranges the positions of key data areas to prevent malware authors from predicting target addresses. Another new feature coming in Leopard is Sandboxing (systrace), which limits an application's access to the system by enforcing access policies for system calls."

311 comments

  1. Woo! by gazbo · · Score: 4, Funny

    Apple is finally catching up with BSD, Linux and Vista!

    1. Re:Woo! by skingers6894 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Yes in every way except number of actual viruses....

    2. Re:Woo! by Corwn+of+Amber · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I, for one, am going to buy Leopard, the day it's out.
      Then I'll put it on in a drawer.
      Then I'll download the ISO of the version I'll install on my PC.

      And I'll be a happy Apple customer :)

      (I'm NOT going to buy a Mac unless I win the lottery or something. But I can spend $139 on the company that's produced the best OS for my use.)

      --
      Making laws based on opinions that stem up from false informations leads to witch hunts.
    3. Re:Woo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      I'm hating all those BSD and Linux viruses...

      Keep drinkin' the cool-aid :)

    4. Re:Woo! by Stooshie · · Score: 0, Troll

      Actually, weren't all these features available in XP?

      --
      America, Home of the Brave. ... .and the Squaw.
    5. Re:Woo! by jellomizer · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Being that BSD and Linux are updated regually. And we havent had an OS X Sience after Vista. They all kinda came out at the same time. Each Next major (or Sub Major) relase has the feature. OS X is the last one to give an Update to their OS. Now BSD, Linux and Microsoft will scramble to create features that compete with apples new features. It is an endless cycle. Isn't competition grand.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    6. Re:Woo! by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Isn't competition grand.

      Now, if we could only get the competition to happen on commodity hardware... Can you just imagine it? An OS that combines the popularity of Windows, the consistent feel of a Mac, the security of a BSD, with the openness and price point of linux - Sweet.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    7. Re:Woo! by bhima · · Score: 0, Troll

      I was planning on doing something a little different.
      I already have a quad G5 PowerMac. And I'm downloading Leopard when it hits the various torrent sites I frequent. After using it for a bit if it is not a complete cluster fuck and it does not try to control the way I use my computer (as the iPhone, iPod touch, and Apple TV do) then I'll upgrade. If it does, they can go fuck themselves and I'm moving to a BSD of some flavor.

      --
      Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
    8. Re:Woo! by rootofevil · · Score: 2, Insightful

      memory randomization and filesystem snapshotting? are you serious?

      --
      turn up the jukebox and tell me a lie
    9. Re:Woo! by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Isn't that the Mac?
      Macs popularity has risen the latest article has Macs at 8.5% market share. OS X is based of BSD and the new version is officially considered Unix. Much of the core is from open source products. Macs are probably the closest thing you will get to your utopian OS

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    10. Re:Woo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      ... or, an OS with popularity of BSD, the consistent feel of Linux, the security of a Windows, with the openness and price point of OSX.

      After an old joke about the EU, sorry.

    11. Re:Woo! by 0xC2 · · Score: 1

      So either Apple is speeding up, or the others are slowing down. Which is it?

      --
      Be heard || Be herd
    12. Re:Woo! by bunratty · · Score: 5, Informative

      As far as I can tell, even the Linux kernel doesn't have memory randomization. You need a patch like PaX to get that feature.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    13. Re:Woo! by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Isn't that the Mac?
      Macs popularity has risen the latest article has Macs at 8.5% market share. OS X is based of BSD and the new version is officially considered Unix. Much of the core is from open source products. Macs are probably the closest thing you will get to your utopian OS


      So it's the Mac, except for the popularity of Windows, and the openness and price point of Linux.

      You might as well say it's Windows, because it has all the features he wants, except for the ones it doesn't...

    14. Re:Woo! by suv4x4 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Apple is finally catching up with BSD, Linux and Vista!

      Hehe, you were modded +5 Funny, but if it was the other way around:

      "Vista is finally catching up with BSD, Linux and OSX!"

      You would be modded +5 Insightful... Where are the scores of Microsoft fanboys bashing Apple, damn it!

    15. Re:Woo! by stewbacca · · Score: 1, Funny

      Yeah, don't buy a Mac. I hear they are slow, overpriced, and don't have any software.

    16. Re:Woo! by suv4x4 · · Score: 2

      Actually, weren't all these features available in XP?

      ASLR is not present in XP. Sandboxing.. that is vaguely defined in the article/summary.

      All OS-es in the world make use of *some* sandboxing on the hardware level, ring-0, ring-1 etc.
      Also all OS-es have privilege implementation (file system privileges, etc.), including pre-Leopard OSX.

      But I think Leopard implements something more granular. Windows 7 is also said to run all Win32 code in more pronounced and more granular sandbox than before (which means it's not in XP). Managed code (.NET) won't need this sandbox as it's natively supported in the runtime already.

      Microsoft definitely has something going on with .NET code though. The kind of security you can get there can't be compared with anything you can do on the software or even hardware level, with pure unmanaged code.

    17. Re:Woo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Or you can use bog standard OpenBSD.

    18. Re:Woo! by bzzzt · · Score: 4, Informative

      Microsoft definitely has something going on with .NET code though. The kind of security you can get there can't be compared with anything you can do on the software or even hardware level, with pure unmanaged code.

      Nice to hear those Microsoft people are about to catch up with the Java sandbox model from 1997 ;)
    19. Re:Woo! by jsiren · · Score: 5, Funny

      Even I have a random memory!

      --
      Usage: km/h for speed (kilometers per hour); kph for very slow impulses (kilopond hours).
    20. Re:Woo! by verbatim_verbose · · Score: 1

      Or just use stock Fedora.

    21. Re:Woo! by suv4x4 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Nice to hear those Microsoft people are about to catch up with the Java sandbox model from 1997 ;)

      It's apparent you have no clue of the advantages of .NET over Java in this area.

    22. Re:Woo! by nschubach · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      I'm sorry, I haven't read the latest marketi... sorry, tech doc on .NET and how wonderful it is.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    23. Re:Woo! by pohl · · Score: 2, Funny

      Where are the scores of Microsoft fanboys bashing Apple, damn it!

      90% of them don't have any real passions or sense of quality and are just playing follow-the-market-leader.

      The other 10% are too busy chewing Ayn Rand's carpet

      .
      --

      The "cue the foo posts in 3, 2, 1..." posts will commence with no subsequent foo posts in 3, 2, 1...

    24. Re:Woo! by ergo98 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Microsoft definitely has something going on with .NET code though. The kind of security you can get there can't be compared with anything you can do on the software or even hardware level, with pure unmanaged code.

      Such as?

      Exactly as you stated, all modern systems have some sandboxing and security constraints. Everything that unmanaged code wants to do -- beyond simply spinning in its own little memory box -- requires the cooperation of the OS. Want to open a network socket? Ask the OS. Want to open a file in read mode? Ask the OS. Want to put something on the screen? Ask the OS. With completely unmanaged code, there is a framework for the finest granularity of security -- .NET didn't invent that.

      Which is a funny comment, really, because .NET took the potential security advantages and just tossed them all in the dumpster. Extraordinarily few .NET developers have any comprehension of the security namespaces and framework...because they don't need to -- the overwhelming majority of .NET code runs with FullTrust.
    25. Re:Woo! by jocknerd · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Be serious. Do you expect Apple to change the way you use OS X? Just order the damn thing. Its going to be great. I've been playing with the 9a559 seed for a couple of weeks. Its working really well. Fortunately, I get a copy for free. Well, not really. I'm an Apple Consultant so there is some money spent there.

    26. Re:Woo! by Yahweh+Doesn't+Exist · · Score: 3, Funny

      your plan doesn't give him the option to continue using it but to forget to pay for it.

      or to decide that it's good enough to use but not worth his money - maybe he'll spend a few hours learning what's new and consider himself even with Apple after they forced him to 'waste his precious time'.

    27. Re:Woo! by bhima · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I am being serious. I do think that Apple is changing the priorities of their software as evidenced by the AppleTV, iPod Touch, the iPhone and by various applications like iTunes and DVD app. Given Apple's recent pricing strategies I think it's a better bet to wait and see how whatever comes out fares for a few months.

      I'm frustrated enough with the subtle restrictions in iTunes & iPod that I'm paying attention to Songbird's development with interest and it looks very, very promising.
      After one too many inappropriate trailers on DVD's that my family was unable to skip, DVD app is no longer in use.
      AppleTV essentially won't play content unless it's from the iTunes store (like fan-subbed anime) without hacking it.

      There are some very interesting new features in Leopard that I am willing to pay to use, but I am not willing to put up with that loss of control spreading to other parts of the operating system. Nor am I going out and buying a new Mac Pro and an iMac just to see a substantial price drop a month or two after the release.

      I've renewed the Mac OS family license for years and this year I'm irritated enough that I don't think I'm going to.

      --
      Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
    28. Re:Woo! by Pope · · Score: 1

      Yes, an operating system upgrade is completely the same thing as a hardware gadget.

      You later complain that the Apple TV (hardware) won't play things that are outside the scope of what Apple said the specs were, and that the DVD Player.app won't skip past things that the movie studios put on the DVD, neither of which are Apple's problems, they're yours.

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    29. Re:Woo! by Jeremi · · Score: 1
      Apple is finally catching up with BSD, Linux and Vista!


      The fair comparison isn't relative to other OS's, it's relative to the black-hat community targeting the OS. Windows didn't start adding security features until well after malware/viruses were a major problem on Windows. Apple, on the other hand, is adding the security features proactively, despite the fact that there are not yet any major virus/malware outbreaks on their platform. Bravo to Apple for thinking ahead!

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    30. Re:Woo! by shmlco · · Score: 4, Informative

      "DVD Player.app won't skip past things that the movie studios put on the DVD..."

      True. In order to license the codecs and software needed to play DVDs legally a DVD Player has to honor the DVD player spec, which means honoring the stupid "operation not allowed" messages embedded in the DVDs.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    31. Re:Woo! by kestasjk · · Score: 2, Informative

      Were you born yesterday? Seems you know absolutely nothing about OS X.

      # Tagging Downloaded Applications Protect yourself from potential threats. Any application downloaded to your Mac is tagged. Before it runs for the first time, the system asks for your consent -- telling you when it was downloaded, what application was used to download it, and, if applicable, what URL it came from. This was introduced by Microsoft in Windows XP SP2

      # Application-Based Firewall Gain more control over the built-in firewall. Specify the behavior of specific applications to either allow or block incoming connections. You guessed it; Microsoft, SP2 (it was available in third party firewalls before then of course)

      # Library Randomization Defend against attackers with no effort at all. One of the most common security breaches occurs when a hacker's code calls a known memory address to have a system function execute malicious code. Leopard frustrates this plan by relocating system libraries to one of several thousand possible randomly assigned addresses. As the GP said, this has been in lots of OSes for a long time, including Windows Vista.

      # Signed Applications Feel safe with your applications. A digital signature on an application verifies its identity and ensures its integrity. All applications shipped with Leopard are signed by Apple, and third-party software developers can also sign their applications. Again, Microsoft, SP2.

      I'm guessing "Well, good ideas should be shared around and used by all kinds of companies", and I agree; but why does it apply to Microsoft security and other internal OS technologies, and workspaces, etc, and not stuff Apple makes?
      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    32. Re:Woo! by ChrisA90278 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Chatching up with BSD? Mac OS is BSD. Most of what's in BSD makes it's way into Mac OS X. But Mac OS X does have a rather longer release cycle so things like this can take two years

    33. Re:Woo! by datapharmer · · Score: 1, Informative

      Any application downloaded to your Mac is tagged. Before it runs for the first time, the system asks for your consent
      Safari asks. Most modern browsers have security settings that can do this.

      Application-Based Firewall
      It is called Little Snitch. It works great.

      The most common security breaches occurs when a hacker's code calls a known memory address to have a system function execute malicious code.
      Nice feature, but if you were really concerned with security you would have memory encryption enabled anyhow. No problems with this when using encrypted memory.

      A digital signature on an application verifies its identity and ensures its integrity.
      Public Key signing anyone? This has been around for decades - even on OSX!

      These are not things that weren't available on OSX. They weren't gaping holes. Apple just decided to make them easier for the average user by including them out of the box and beefing them up a bit where necessary (like the memory randomization).
      --
      Get a web developer
    34. Re:Woo! by Holmwood · · Score: 2, Informative

      Memory randomization, no, that was new as of Vista as parent suggests. And I'm amazed it took everyone that long, especially Microsoft whose OS's were absolutely being hammered by Malware.

      File system snapshotting?

      With the genius that Microsoft shows for marketing, they called the feature "Volume Shadow Copy". Steve Jobs foolishly called it "Time Machine". Everyone knows you want to label interesting features with unwieldy acronyms.

      (that's sarcasm). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_Copy And yes, it's available on Win 2K and Windows XP (as of circa 2003), but wasn't included by default until Windows XP SP2.

      So parent is right about memory randomization and wrong about filesystem snapshotting. 1/2. Is parent serious, I dryly ask.

      Speaking as a BSD/Ubuntu/Win XP (that last for games, and certain legacy apps) fan -- in roughly that order -- Leopard will be the easiest to install, configure and use BSD going. And that's pretty tempting.

      I just wish Apple permitted ordinary users to virtualize OS X on whatever hardware they wanted.

      -Holmwood.

    35. Re:Woo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a kernel-level feature and OSX has it's own kernel (mach).

    36. Re:Woo! by BrainInAJar · · Score: 1

      This more granular access control sounds a lot to me like RBAC, which has been in solaris since solaris 9, it's in AIX and if memory serves OpenVMS as well.

      I also think it's part of the SELinux patches that nobody ever applies

    37. Re:Woo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not like there aren't dvd players out there that don't allow you to skip...

    38. Re:Woo! by kestasjk · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Safari asks. Most modern browsers have security settings that can do this. No as in any foreign executable, including executables downloaded via network shares, are flagged as foreign. This isn't the same as your browser asking "are you sure you want to download this executable file?"

      It is called Little Snitch. It works great. Okay, but it wasn't part of the OS. We're talking about the OS here, not applications for the OS.

      Nice feature, but if you were really concerned with security you would have memory encryption enabled anyhow. No problems with this when using encrypted memory. Encrypted memory? Can you elaborate on this? I'm guessing you're talking about encrypted swap files, but that doesn't make it any harder for foreign code to know where in the address space useful libraries are.

      Public Key signing anyone? This has been around for decades - even on OSX! Manual public key signing isn't the same as automatic digitally signed binaries. Manual public key signing means that the user has to know to download the digital signature separately and check the executable, which is a big hassle and pretty unrealistic for most users.

      These are not things that weren't available on OSX. They weren't gaping holes. Apple just decided to make them easier for the average user by including them out of the box and beefing them up a bit where necessary (like the memory randomization). They were already available? Where in Tiger is memory randomization, digitally signed binaries, flagged-as-new binaries, and the built in application-level firewall?
      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    39. Re:Woo! by bhima · · Score: 1

      Obviously I was not clear enough with my whining. So: If Leopard aggravates me I will not buy a new MacPro but I will instead build a white box and install FreeBSD on it. Pirating Leopard is pretty much pointless. Either A: I like it and I get the family license when I buy my MacPro (The difference between a single and family license being about 1% of the cost of the hardware) or B: I use FreeBSD and so eventually migrate the rest of my computers. Either way it's not like I'm going to use something I don't like or spend a lot of time weaseling out of an inexpensive license. So my main whine was more along the lines of not buying a 5,000 Euro MacPro.

      I do like the "precious time" jab though... as if anyone posting on Slashdot has that!

      --
      Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
    40. Re:Woo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The application-based firewall has been available in OSX too. There's a program called LittleSnitch that blocks connections on a per-app basis.

      You say a "long time" but Windows Vista isn't exactly dying of old-age here... Other than that quote the other OSes. Some Linux distros have it, but they patch the kernel themselves. IIRC, the mainline kernel doesn't have this ability. I don't know how old the patch is though.

      I'm guessing "Well, good ideas should be shared around and used by all kinds of companies", and I agree; but why does it apply to Microsoft security and other internal OS technologies, and workspaces, etc, and not stuff Apple makes? I'm all for competition that breeds better things. My only problem is that Microsoft (and Apple too sometimes) will repackage something and then act like they invented it... badging it as a great example of "Microsoft Innovation" (or "Apple Innovation").

      And things where Microsoft "copies" from Apple. They don't attribute that Apple's OS goaded them into making changes. Instead they claim that "we were going to that anyways," or that their new thing was "invented at Microsoft." Or whatever else the corporate-speak of the day is to try and drive up the stock price...

      I was particularly pissed when Apple included things like Spotlight or Dashboard but did not even both to attribute the ideas to software like LaunchBar/Quicksilver/Butler (for Spotlight) or Konfabulator -- aka Yahoo Widgets -- (for Dashboard).
    41. Re:Woo! by mccoma · · Score: 1
      AppleTV essentially won't play content unless it's from the iTunes store (like fan-subbed anime) without hacking it.

      strange, my plays videos not from iTunes Store. Just get it in the right format - plenty of programs for that. No AppleTV chages.

    42. Re:Woo! by naasking · · Score: 2, Informative

      Microsoft definitely has something going on with .NET code though. The kind of security you can get there can't be compared with anything you can do on the software or even hardware level, with pure unmanaged code.

      Of course, both of these statements are wrong. Lisp machines had finer grained authority management, as did earlier capability hardware (tagging down to the word level); we're talking technology from the 70s and 80s here which can surpass the capabilities of new millennium technology.

      Typed Assembly Languages are "unmanaged code", ie. raw assembly, but are accompanied with a proof certificate proving various properties of the assembly code, including memory safety and beyond. This is more recent work under the banner of "proof carrying code". This counts as a software technique which is superior to .NET's managed code. Heck, .NET's managed code can't even express strongly typed function pointers, and must resort to ad-hoc delegate techniques in the VM (despite many researchers suggesting MS add them way back in the early design stages of .NET).

      I like .NET to a certain extent, and I like Microsoft's Singularity project, but .NET is far from the true cutting edge in safety. Unfortunately, Java is no better off, and functional languages are only marginally better when it comes to security.

    43. Re:Woo! by shelterpaw · · Score: 5, Informative
      Easy enough to write an applescript to bypass that, which I've done. It's ugly, but it works and you can add it to your dvd applescript menu:

      tell application "DVD Player"
      activate
      set viewer full screen to true
      try -- use try to bypass the FBI warning, menu's etc.
      play dvd
      set title to 1
      set chapter to 1
      end try
      (* The following will wait for DVD's that refuse to bypass the intro's and jump to the beggining. Annoying!*)<br>
      delay [3]
      if title is not equal to 1 then
      repeat until active dvd menu is equal to main
      go to main menu
      delay [15]
      end repeat
      go return to dvd
      end if
      (* The following will be used for odd dvd's like Questar Documentarys's they don't start with the standard title, they start with title 2 or something different. *)
      delay [30]
      set oddTitle to 2
      -- check to see if we're still on the main menu page
      if dvd menu active is equal to true then
      repeat until dvd menu active is equal to false
      set title to oddTitle
      set oddTitle to oddTitle + 1
      end repeat
      end if
      end tell
    44. Re:Woo! by Anpheus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The problem is, there's no way for legacy apps to be smoothly updated with a new security framework without recompiling each of them with a new API. .NET apps, having been built with those requirements in mind, are able to, at compile time, determine what privileges they need and don't need.

      Unfortunately I have yet to see the 'granularity' in .NET apps, I think most of the permissions are rather vague.

      I think the point of a future Windows and .NET release will be to make security requirements part of the static analysis of code, probably required before execution. .NET compiled code is much easier to analyze after runtime than machine-code for only a few percentage points of a drop in throughput on a modern computer. Windows 7 might not even bother with reading the security information.

    45. Re:Woo! by MightyYar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Re: Volume Shadow Copy

      I might be mistaken, but isn't the Apple and MS implementation of this totally different? In the Mac implementation, you can get the history of a single file and resurrect any version of it.

      In the MS implementation, if you want to resurrect a file you first have to restore the whole volume. This makes it useful for sytem backup, but not very practical for "oops, I just lost 15 minutes of work" file restore things.

      So... I've never really bothered with Volume Shadow Copy but I will definitely be using Time Machine.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    46. Re:Woo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you are an idiot

    47. Re:Woo! by cnettel · · Score: 1

      You don't need to restore the complete shadow copy to get access to it. The interface in XP really sucks, but the actual support is there.

    48. Re:Woo! by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      How do you get to it without a restore?

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    49. Re:Woo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is the poster being vague about which BSD he is talking about. OpenBSD has had memory randomization for many years. I am not so sure this is the case for FreeBSD and NetBSD, AFAIK they might not have it at all, but I don't know; could be.

      Mac OS X borrows more heavily from FreeBSD than OpenBSD, so I doubt they have, for example, all of the malloc() randomization changes that was put in OpenBSD a few years back.

    50. Re:Woo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I'm not so sure it is a kernel-level feature. You could implement stack randomization in the CRT's "_start" routine. You could implement heap randomization in the libc's "malloc". You can randomize addresses of statically allocated data in the dynamic linker, ld.so. None of these parts are in the kernel.

      In my opinion it's better to keep this out of the kernel, even. It's better not to over complicate it.

      Note that some software breaks when you introduce randomized memory addresses (two examples off the top of my head: clisp, gcc's precompiled headers). If you implement the changes in userland rather than in the kernel, you can still run this software by linking to a different set of routines. (This is done in OpenBSD's port of clisp, for example.)

    51. Re:Woo! by Gr8Apes · · Score: 2, Insightful

      # Tagging Downloaded Applications

      Protect yourself from potential threats. Any application downloaded to your Mac is tagged. Before it runs for the first time, the system asks for your consent -- telling you when it was downloaded, what application was used to download it, and, if applicable, what URL it came from. This was introduced by Microsoft in Windows XP SP2 Really? It is? Amazing that the only time I'm asked whether I want to run an executable is when I download with a browser. There's no tagging of executables that I'm aware of nor have experienced. Nor is there anyway to tell where an executable came from once it's on your drive. Or maybe there's a new bug to report to MS about XP SP2....

      # Application-Based Firewall

      Gain more control over the built-in firewall. Specify the behavior of specific applications to either allow or block incoming connections. You guessed it; Microsoft, SP2 (it was available in third party firewalls before then of course) SP2's firewall is an add-on application. Yes, it ships with but is not integral too the OS, and can be replaced. It's also a piece of crap, IIRC. There's much easier and more efficient ways of securing your system. (FYI, I don't run it as it's too flaky for what I do and far too big a pain to even try and configure for the port ranges I use - it'd essentially be open)

      # Library Randomization As the GP said, this has been in lots of OSes for a long time, including Windows Vista. And how easy has it been to implement? It's not in XP SP2.

      # Signed Applications

      Feel safe with your applications. A digital signature on an application verifies its identity and ensures its integrity. All applications shipped with Leopard are signed by Apple, and third-party software developers can also sign their applications. Again, Microsoft, SP2. I believe MS had signed drivers and DLLs (not applications, just drivers and DLLs) long ago. Guess what, no one does it. When's the last time you had a signed driver or DLL? My sound card, video card, motherboard chipsets, network chipsets, printers, and scanners all came with unsigned drivers, despite being "Made for Windows". Having something and using it effectively are two entirely different things. Those would all be from mom and pop companies, like Creative, nVidia/ATI, MSI/Asus, broadcom, Konica-Minolta/HP, and HP/Epson, respectively.

      BTW, since OSX is BSD, then OSX has potentially had anything BSD has, especially things that are "ages" old as the other poster said.
      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    52. Re:Woo! by m2943 · · Score: 1

      Nice to hear that Sun caught up with 1970's software technology, after pushing unsafe and flaky C based software for the previous couple of decades.

    53. Re:Woo! by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      iirc you right click on a folder go to properties and there is a previous versions tab but it's a while since i've used it.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    54. Re:Woo! by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I'd love to use it, but I'll be damned if I can figure out where to turn it on, let alone getting the tab to show up in properties.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    55. Re:Woo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not give us a quick summary then? :-)

      I'd be interested in seeing a clear and conscise (and coolheaded) explanation of this. (And I don't really have the time nor the incentive to go dig it up and piece together myself -- I'm not sure I'd even be competent enough.) Please go ahead!

    56. Re:Woo! by petermgreen · · Score: 2, Informative

      you can't have a shadowed volume on XP, you can access them (including previous versions) from it but you can't have them on it. The volumes must be hosted on server 2003 or above.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    57. Re:Woo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm frustrated enough with the subtle restrictions in iTunes & iPod

      Mind telling us what those restrictions are? So far as I can tell, iTunes has no restrictions unless you choose to buy restricted (DRMed) content. My solution is to not buy DRMed content...

      After one too many inappropriate trailers on DVD's that my family was unable to skip, DVD app is no longer in use.

      You have the MPAA to thank for that, not Apple. Any company which wishes to create a DVD player (or DVD player app for a computer) through the normal, fully legal route has to sign up to enforce all the restrictions the MPAA wants to shove down your throat... one of which is that the player must honor disabling of navigation controls by the DVD. (That is, DVD authors can selectively disable navigation controls for specific content on the DVD.) The reason for this was originally just to force you to watch the copyright warning when you stick the disc in, but it's now also being used to force you to watch trailers. Once again, blame the MPAA (and content producers who abuse the feature) for this, not Apple: if Apple didn't go along, they wouldn't get a license for any of the IP involved in playing back a DVD, a CSS decryption key, and so forth.

      You may have found other apps which play DVDs and do not enforce these restrictions. I am reasonably certain that all of these apps are not properly licensed, and are built on the technique of using the known methods for attacking CSS encryption. For obvious reasons, a big corporation like Apple is not going to do anything legally questionable like that.

      By the way, something you may be interested in: in the past people have written patchers for DVD Player.app to hack it so navigation controls are always enabled. I have no idea whether they're still being updated for current versions.

    58. Re:Woo! by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Ahhh, so the comparison to 10.5 was a bit... overreaching? Not that I've ever used 10.5...

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    59. Re:Woo! by konohitowa · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm NOT going to buy a Mac unless I win the lottery or something.

      Wow. What's the jackpot currently sitting at for the Lotto in your state? Like $2000 or something? (I'm assuming you plan to take it as a cash disbursement rather than spread out over 20 years)

    60. Re:Woo! by Neo_piper · · Score: 1

      Well my experience with iTunes and non-iTunes video is fairly negative.
      The kicker is that some sort of glitch during an version upgrade caused it to add a video file that had been misplaced in the music library to the video playlist. After a long talk from my wife about downloading such trash, I decided to see if I could remove the file and re-add it but could not, proving that there was no restriction to PLAYING the media only to OPENING and ADDING it to the library.

    61. Re:Woo! by Corwn+of+Amber · · Score: 1

      It's more like that I'm way too poor to consider buying a Mac, while I can build a computer that will run MacOSX just as well for half the price.

      --
      Making laws based on opinions that stem up from false informations leads to witch hunts.
    62. Re:Woo! by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      But it is more Popular then Linux and Lower Cost then Windows, and it is more open then windows too... It is close as a compromise that we are going to see for a while.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    63. Re:Woo! by scott_karana · · Score: 1

      The thing is, the old DVD Player didn't listen to those messages, which made me love it to pieces.

    64. Re:Woo! by RzUpAnmsCwrds · · Score: 1

      In the MS implementation, if you want to resurrect a file you first have to restore the whole volume. This makes it useful for sytem backup, but not very practical for "oops, I just lost 15 minutes of work" file restore things.


      Not true. Right click on a file in Vista Business/Enterprise/Ultimate, choose "Properties", the choose "Previous Versions".

      It may not have the same over-the-top 3D interface that Time Machine does, but it accomplishes the same goals.
    65. Re:Woo! by skeeto · · Score: 1

      prelink can randomize the addressing. It will do the job without having to modify the kernel, too.

    66. Re:Woo! by crawling_chaos · · Score: 1

      Mine is wholly positive. Ain't anecdotal argumentation worthless?

      --
      You can only drink 30 or 40 glasses of beer a day, no matter how rich you are.
      -- Colonel Adolphus Busch
    67. Re:Woo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Leopard will be the easiest to install, configure and use BSD going.
      Except OS X isn't a BSD based operating system. It contains a significant number of BSD user space tools, but that hardly qualifies it as a BSD. The number of differences between OS X and any of the other more traditional BSD based operating systems far outweigh the number of similarities. You could call Leopard UNIX, but it's definitely not a BSD.
    68. Re:Woo! by addicted4444 · · Score: 1

      Can I do a search for an older version of the file in Vista?

    69. Re:Woo! by konohitowa · · Score: 1

      I figured. I was just teasing you because of the "lottery" comment. No offense intended [you CAN get Macs in the 200-300 dollar range... but I'm assuming it becomes a bang/buck argument at that point].

    70. Re:Woo! by mrsteveman1 · · Score: 1

      Mr. Pharmer, I'm convinced you have no idea what the poster was talking about and thus made no sense.

    71. Re:Woo! by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      # Tagging Downloaded Applications

      Protect yourself from potential threats. Any application downloaded to your Mac is tagged. Before it runs for the first time, the system asks for your consent -- telling you when it was downloaded, what application was used to download it, and, if applicable, what URL it came from. This was introduced by Microsoft in Windows XP SP2 Really? It is? Amazing that the only time I'm asked whether I want to run an executable is when I download with a browser. There's no tagging of executables that I'm aware of nor have experienced. Nor is there anyway to tell where an executable came from once it's on your drive. Or maybe there's a new bug to report to MS about XP SP2.... Actually, I've frequently been harassed about applications I downloaded or copied off my network whether I really want to run them (and told at that point whether it's digitally signed). It's bloody annoying, and I bet it will be in OS X too.

      # Application-Based Firewall

      Gain more control over the built-in firewall. Specify the behavior of specific applications to either allow or block incoming connections. You guessed it; Microsoft, SP2 (it was available in third party firewalls before then of course) SP2's firewall is an add-on application. Yes, it ships with but is not integral too the OS, and can be replaced. It's also a piece of crap, IIRC. There's much easier and more efficient ways of securing your system. (FYI, I don't run it as it's too flaky for what I do and far too big a pain to even try and configure for the port ranges I use - it'd essentially be open) Your argument is a load of crap. The fact is, XP SP2 apparently did have it before OS X (even if it sucks, I imagine OS X's one will suck too). You cannot shrug off a valid argument against your point with strawman arguments like that. And it's not an add-on application. It's an OS feature. In the same way as OS X's new firewall is an OS feature.

      # Library Randomization As the GP said, this has been in lots of OSes for a long time, including Windows Vista. And how easy has it been to implement? It's not in XP SP2. How is that relevant?

      # Signed Applications

      Feel safe with your applications. A digital signature on an application verifies its identity and ensures its integrity. All applications shipped with Leopard are signed by Apple, and third-party software developers can also sign their applications. Again, Microsoft, SP2. I believe MS had signed drivers and DLLs (not applications, just drivers and DLLs) long ago. Guess what, no one does it. When's the last time you had a signed driver or DLL? My sound card, video card, motherboard chipsets, network chipsets, printers, and scanners all came with unsigned drivers, despite being "Made for Windows". Having something and using it effectively are two entirely different things. Those would all be from mom and pop companies, like Creative, nVidia/ATI, MSI/Asus, broadcom, Konica-Minolta/HP, and HP/Epson, respectively. Wow, way to twist the original point to fit your rabid, foaming at the mouth agenda. Microsoft signs all core OS components (ironically, not Internet Explorer) with their digital signature so the OS can verify that they are the legitimate originals. Third parties can choose to sign their code. Interestingly, that's the exact thing that Apple just described. This has been in Windows since Windows 2000.

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    72. Re:Woo! by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      Or Vista. Vista includes the ability to shadow volumes too (and irritatingly turns it on by default)

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    73. Re:Woo! by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      It isn't lower cost than Windows at all. For me to use Mac OS X, I need to go out and buy a new PC.

      So it isn't really Open, Low Cost, or Popular. But it does get security.

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    74. Re:Woo! by Watson+Ladd · · Score: 1

      Functional languages are much better from a security standpoint. Look up Omega-7 or E if you don't believe me.

      --
      Inventions have long since reached their limit, and I see no hope for further development.-- Frontinus, 1st cent. AD
    75. Re:Woo! by xedx · · Score: 1

      You do not need PaX for ASLR. Vanilla has it:
      cat /proc/sys/kernel/randomize_va_space

    76. Re:Woo! by naasking · · Score: 1

      Functional languages are much better from a security standpoint. Look up Omega-7 or E if you don't believe me.

      If you're referring to w7 and E of capability security fame, then I'm well aware of them. However, they are not the predominant functional languages (Lisp, Scheme, Haskell, OCaml/ML), so as a broad classification, "functional languages" have only marginally better security properties as a result of their better abstraction abilities and static type systems.

      There's a reason E's authors call it an object-capability language, and not a functional language.

    77. Re:Woo! by kestasjk · · Score: 1
      The parent addressed your other points so I'll just finish off with this:

      BTW, since OSX is BSD, then OSX has potentially had anything BSD has, especially things that are "ages" old as the other poster said. OSX forked from BSD a long time ago. OpenBSD has address space randomization, OS X doesn't; you can't get away with saying "because OSX is derived from BSD you can't claim BSD is better in any way".
      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    78. Re:Woo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good god! Don't they have something like AnyDVD for OS X, to just fix abused DVD features on-the-fly, seamlessly, to whichever movie player you use?

    79. Re:Woo! by MikeFM · · Score: 1

      No no no. OS X is okay but not great whereas their hardware is first rate. I buy a Mac not for OS X but for the beautiful monitor and high quality.

      --
      At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
    80. Re:Woo! by aman534 · · Score: 1

      Apple is finally catching up with BSD,Linux and Vista. However, i hope that Apple could be better than Vista. (It looks like Vista is facing lots of software compatibility issues lately and it makes me very disappointed.

    81. Re:Woo! by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Nice to hear those Microsoft people are about to catch up with the Java sandbox model from 1997 ;)

      It's apparent you have no clue of the advantages of .NET over Java in this area.

      And he still doesn't, since you didn't use this wonderful opportunity to state them ! What a lazy astroturfer. Go on, tell us, what are these advantages ?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    82. Re:Woo! by torstenvl · · Score: 1
      I wish I were metamoderating today. This is ridiculous. Slashdot is going down the toilet... I can't believe this was moderated Troll.

      Mac OS is BSD
      Let's check http://google.com/search?strip=1&q=cache:59st5nC2IpAJ:www.opensource.apple.com/ shall we?

      With its open-source core based on FreeBSD 5.0 and the Mach 3.0 microkernel, Mac OS X is the best Macintosh operating system ever for UNIX users.

      Also, http://google.com/search?strip=1&q=cache:aaotxMNAvXsJ:www.apple.com/macosx/features/unix/

      Darwin [is the] the robust BSD environment that underlies Mac OS X.


      Most of what's in BSD makes it's way into Mac OS X.
      See above.

      But Mac OS X does have a rather longer release cycle so things like this can take two years.
      Tiger (April 2005) - Leopard (October 2007) = 2y5m
      FBSD 5.0 (May 2006) - FBSD 6.0 (January 2007) = 0y8m

      These are all correct factual statements. How is this trolling?
    83. Re:Woo! by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Actually, I've frequently been harassed about applications I downloaded or copied off my network whether I really want to run them (and told at that point whether it's digitally signed). It's bloody annoying, and I bet it will be in OS X too.

      Interesting then that I, with XP Pro SP2 and hotfixes have never seen such a beast. Perhaps you're running some third party app that does this or some screwed version?

      The core thing here is that there is no way to tag an executable in Windows. You're blowing smoke. See below for more on MS's digital signing strategy.

      # Application-Based Firewall

      Your argument is a load of crap. The fact is, XP SP2 apparently did have it before OS X (even if it sucks, I imagine OS X's one will suck too). You cannot shrug off a valid argument against your point with strawman arguments like that. And it's not an add-on application. It's an OS feature. In the same way as OS X's new firewall is an OS feature.

      Actually, OSX already has a firewall, you're just going to be able to use it in easier ways. BTW, IIRC, MS NT based OSes have had port blocking for a long long time. It's certainly not solely an XP SP2 item. (The reason I equate the 2 is that the SP2 Firewall isn't much better than pure port blocking. Don't bother arguing about it, MS's firewall has been well and roundly publicly criticized.)

      # Library Randomization

      As the GP said, this has been in lots of OSes for a long time, including Windows Vista.

      And how easy has it been to implement? It's not in XP SP2.

      How is that relevant?

      Many of your arguments seem to be - but look, it's in XP SP2...

      Other than that, Vista is a swell OS. Just look at its adoption rate. (yes, tangential slam, I just couldn't avoid it)

      # Signed Applications

      Again, Microsoft, SP2.

      I believe MS had signed drivers and DLLs (not applications, just drivers and DLLs) long ago. Guess what, no one does it. When's the last time you had a signed driver or DLL? My sound card, video card, motherboard chipsets, network chipsets, printers, and scanners all came with unsigned drivers, despite being "Made for Windows". Having something and using it effectively are two entirely different things. Those would all be from mom and pop companies, like Creative, nVidia/ATI, MSI/Asus, broadcom, Konica-Minolta/HP, and HP/Epson, respectively.

      Wow, way to twist the original point to fit your rabid, foaming at the mouth agenda. Microsoft signs all core OS components (ironically, not Internet Explorer) with their digital signature so the OS can verify that they are the legitimate originals. Third parties can choose to sign their code. Interestingly, that's the exact thing that Apple just described. This has been in Windows since Windows 2000.

      From Adobe on the new features of SP2 (because even a google search shows little on digital signing of files other than for embedded systems):

      Many of the new security dialog boxes appear if a particular piece of software does not have a digital signature. Digital signatures verify the authenticity of the software download. As software publishers get busy creating and filing their digital signatures, there will be a transitional period in which many reliable software applications will not yet have them. Even without a digital signature, users are able to click to confirm that they want to install their software and proceed with the installation. To find out more about the digital signatures, see the Enhanced Browser Security section of the Microsoft TechNet article, Changes to Functionality in Microsoft Windows XP Service Pack 2.

      Now, that sounds like it happens every time yo

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    84. Re:Woo! by Watson+Ladd · · Score: 1

      w7 is implemented on top of Scheme.

      --
      Inventions have long since reached their limit, and I see no hope for further development.-- Frontinus, 1st cent. AD
    85. Re:Woo! by naasking · · Score: 1

      I know, what's your point? Joe-E is implemented on top of Java, but like w7, must tame the underlying platform. Scheme is not secure.

    86. Re:Woo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well that was completely random

    87. Re:Woo! by Psychoactivist · · Score: 0

      Yeah, because anyone who uses a Mac must be brainwashed or something...

    88. Re:Woo! by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      The core thing here is that there is no way to tag an executable in Windows. You're blowing smoke. See below for more on MS's digital signing strategy. Actually, the one blowing smoke here is you, or have you not heard of NTFS File Streams? You know, where Windows stores all that metadata it keeps on files?

      Wait, holy shit that blows up your bottom argument too!

      By the way, I never said XP SP2's firewall was good. I simply said it had a Firewall. Windows Vista's firewall is much better.

      Um, and it should also be noted that XP will verify the digital signature of an application prior to launching it if you are launching it from a network drive, or by using the browser's "Run from current location" feature.
      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    89. Re:Woo! by Reaperducer · · Score: 1

      does not try to control the way I use my computer (as the iPhone, iPod touch, and Apple TV do)
      What's your beef with AppleTV? And how does it possibly control your computer use? Start making sense, man.

      I love my AppleTV. It plays my entire collection of ripped DVDs, so now I can keep those hundreds of silly little discs on a spindle in the cupboard while I stream the video to my TV. It's fantastic. Sounds like you're just another Slashdot griefer.
      --
      -- I'm old enough to have lived through six different meanings of the word "hacker."
    90. Re:Woo! by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      I still note you're stuck in the Browser mentality. Yes, I suppose it will check it everytime you run it from your browser. Who the fuck does that? Seriously. I personally don't care about the internal process of XP and network drives. Overall, network drive performance is poor enough that I'd never run anything from them, even at GB speeds. So I could run programs from them. Big deal.

      Now for your smoke - NTFS file streams, sorry to burst your bubble and expose you for the rabid rat you are, but they do NOT apply to installed applications. So go fly your trolling paper kite somewhere else.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    91. Re:Woo! by Stooshie · · Score: 1

      I was being partially tongue in cheek. However, if you look at apple's site (the link to all new features (about 20 or so)) the majority of them have been available on XP.

      --
      America, Home of the Brave. ... .and the Squaw.
    92. Re:Woo! by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      Holy crap, you're STILL full of shit!

      An NTFS file stream can contain anything, about anything. Hell, I could put a text document there, or XML metadata, and I can even apply it to an installed app!

      I also noticed something yesterday that drove me nuts. Apparently, when you copy shit off a network drive or the internet, it tags it in some bizarre manner that causes it to prompt me prior to running it. I had to individually go to the properties of each and every file and click the "Unblock" button to tell it "Yes, I do actually want to run these apps". Just because it's a shitty implementation (and it is, it has to be one of the worse design decisions Microsoft ever made) doesn't mean it isn't there.

      Sorry to burst your bubble and expose you for the rabid foaming-at-the-mouth Apple fanboi you are, but you're an idiot.

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    93. Re:Woo! by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      I'd highly suggest you go take a look at exactly what you're running, because plain jane XP SP2 it isn't.

      Those bubbles you're bursting are the one's that are floating off your chin. I have a couple of Macs, it's true, but I also own 2 Solaris boxes, and a couple of other odds and ends, and even a windows box plus, of course, what I run at work (combination of windows, linux, and solaris).

      And let me repeat that not a single one of the windows machines exhibits any of the make believe nonsense you're spouting. Maybe you've "enhanced" your machine with some wonderful Norton 360 product, or whatever passes for user friendly big bother security these days in the MS world. (no - that wasn't a typo;)

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    94. Re:Woo! by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      You don't get much dumber. I have many machines, as well as supporting (gah) many others, from XP (not even a service pack!) through Vista. And they all exhibit this irritating behaviour. It's not a fucking third party product, it's built in (bloody irritatingly) to the OS. The bubbles I'm bursting, are the ones still spouting out of your mouth. They're brown coloured and smell bad too.

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    95. Re:Woo! by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      If you're still having delusions of brown coloured badly smelling bubbles, pull your head out of your arse. It explains the (badly written) vitriolic bile emanating from the same. Perhpas goatse would be a better locale for you?

      It's amazing that no one else, and I mean no one else, has problems like you do. I think it speaks more to your self admitted idiocy and incompetence than anything else, since you're the cause (you support them, right, so you could fix them if you had half a clue.). Just try not to get any drool on any of the equipment.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    96. Re:Woo! by Neanderthal+Ninny · · Score: 1

      Ditto. Where did I put my keys?! Hey where am I?

    97. Re:Woo! by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      Your signature couldn't be more right, you moronic fucktard, you DO need a life. I'm not the only one that experiences this thing with Windows. Perhaps I'm just the only one that finds it irritating. I think the only source of vitriol, idiocy and incompetence is you. I fucking give up now, because you're too fucking stupid to understand when to shut the fuck up.

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    98. Re:Woo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Linux has had it since 2.6.12. I don't see how ignorance is Informative.

    99. Re:Woo! by aliquis · · Score: 1

      There exist hardware in bottles which encrypts your memory AND throws away the keys ;D

    100. Re:Woo! by iTristan · · Score: 1

      "AppleTV essentially won't play content unless it's from the iTunes store (like fan-subbed anime) without hacking it." What are you talking about? Aside from a handful of albums purchased from iTunes, everything played on my AppleTV including movies, TV shows and music are all brought in from wherever - mostly legit mind you, but not from iTunes. Apple TV is quite happy playing it all - no hacking necessary, no magic.

    101. Re:Woo! by Allador · · Score: 1

      Interesting then that I, with XP Pro SP2 and hotfixes have never seen such a beast. Perhaps you're running some third party app that does this or some screwed version?

      The core thing here is that there is no way to tag an executable in Windows. You're blowing smoke. See below for more on MS's digital signing strategy. This is the default behavior of XP since (I believe) sp2.

      All executables (maybe all files? not sure) that come in from outside the local machine get flagged as dangerous. The first time you try to run them you get an extra popup box that says as much.

      The funny thing is that, if you're NOT seeing it, then its likely either you've been doing some amateur surgery on your box, or you've been pwned, and that was disabled by the malware.
    102. Re:Woo! by DrXym · · Score: 1
      Nice to hear those Microsoft people are about to catch up with the Java sandbox model from 1997 ;)

      It goes way beyond the sandbox model.

    103. Re:Woo! by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      That's what's funny. I've never seen it, nor has anyone else. We have an office full of machines here running SP2, including about half brand new. None of this behavior appears. (They also, of course, have the standard brain-dead AV products installed)

      Before you go "oh, then your office is infected", I've also not experienced this "feature" at 2 other large installations, also with existing and new machines, nor on my old and brand new installation at home, nor has anyone else I know. These are all XP Pro SP2 installations however.

      I'll also add that windows update has been permanently disabled on all boxes, and a large number of "services" have been disabled on my home systems. Based on the fact that some of these systems were never connected to the internet, there's no way they could have been pwned, so that theory's out (unless you're suggesting that MS sends out malware on their disks...)

      The only thing I did notice is that getting to a share can be problematic if your share network settings aren't setup to be the same, but absolutely nothing regarding running anything off a share, or download, or copied from CD/DVD or even floppies (yes, I still have a 3.5" floppy drive on 1 system, as XP requires a 3.5" floppy for the driver for that hardware during install)

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    104. Re:Woo! by Kalak · · Score: 1

      Pay for something that is really to copy DVDs, or just use a scripting language included w/ the OS to do what the GP was posting about? Which would I choose?

      And yes, you can copy DVDs on OSX if you are so inclined, for free http://www.mactheripper.org/ Not to mention that you can do it under linux for free, and probably windows for free, but I haven't really looked, since it's been for work where video is used for courses occasionally. (fair use? still remember that?)

      --
      I am, and always will be, an idiot. Karma: Coma (mostly effected by .hack)
    105. Re:Woo! by sehrgut · · Score: 1

      Eh . . . they don't bother. Leopard kills Vista. Heck, Leopard pretty much eats Vista! http://digg.com/apple/Leopard_Kills_Vista

  2. obligitary troll by pat+mcguire · · Score: 4, Funny

    If only this broke bootcamp compatibility - then they'd really prevent viruses.

    1. Re:obligitary troll by rk075846 · · Score: 1

      If only this broke bootcamp compatibility - then they'd really prevent viruses. if it was so campatible, and prevent all the viruses, what will happen to the antiviruses provider???will they survive? or they come out with new viruses and eat the broke till the core!!

    2. Re:obligitary troll by krakelohm · · Score: 1

      Say what?

      --
      You are all a bunch of idots.
  3. A little late perhaps? by monkeyboythom · · Score: 0

    [blockquote]Apple has announced plans to add code-scrambling diversity to Mac OS X Leopard,[/blockquote] Diversity Month was in April. Oh well...

  4. Cool, but even better... by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    From the changelog:

    CalDAV Group Scheduling
    Schedule a meeting with colleagues, check availability, and book conference rooms when using iCal with a compatible CalDAV server like iCal Server.

    Reserve Rooms and Equipment
    Reserve meeting rooms and equipment as you create your meeting invitations. If your calendar is administered through a CalDAV server, iCal automatically displays availabilities when you add a room or resource to your meeting.

    It sounds like a high-level player finally decided to take on Exchange. My biggest questions: are there Windows programs that support these features via CalDAV, and is there a CalDAV server in FreeBSD's ports?

    --
    Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    1. Re:Cool, but even better... by gEvil+(beta) · · Score: 2, Informative

      My biggest questions: are there Windows programs that support these features via CalDAV, and is there a CalDAV server in FreeBSD's ports?

      It looks like there are a handful of Windows apps that support CalDAV at this time. Since it's an open standard, it shouldn't be long before more calendar apps support it. As for the server, this is what I could find with a 10 second search. Looks promising, too.

      --
      This guy's the limit!
    2. Re:Cool, but even better... by link915 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Currently no viable solution exists on a Windows box. There are things like Sunbird and Yagoon but they don't work well with Outlook (i.e. no real integration). Currently there is a project called Open Connector that exists to bring caldav support to Outlook. It is quickly reaching beta but the main developer needs help. I am pitching in and hope that others will as well. Check it out at http://www.openconnector.org./

      Also, the calendar server that is used in Leopard is nothing more than the open-source Darwin calendar server at http://trac.calendarserver.org/projects/calendarserver

      So, although nothing exists in ports that I can find you can run the Darwin calendar server on FreeBSD.

      --
      "I reject your reality and substitute my own!"
    3. Re:Cool, but even better... by nine-times · · Score: 1

      I don't know details, but Apple is claiming Outlook support for their new calendaring. I'm guessing they've figured out how to mimic Exchange's MAPI, but I guess it might be some sort of Outlook plugin...?

      Like I said, I don't know.

    4. Re:Cool, but even better... by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      There are things like Sunbird and Yagoon but they don't work well with Outlook (i.e. no real integration).

      Actually, (it was explained to me that) we get our Outlook licenses for free because we have an Exchange server. If we migrated off Exchange, we'd likely be migrating off Outlook, too, if there was something solid that could take its place. We're a smallish company that doesn't have more than one conference room to reserve and most of our scheduling issues are currently resolved over IM (on our Jabber server - bless you ejabberd!). Maybe KDE4's Kontact will fill the bill.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    5. Re:Cool, but even better... by PeeweeJD · · Score: 2, Informative

      It sounds like a high-level player finally decided to take on Exchange.

      According to this article, apple corporate has switched from a third party calendaring program to iCal so those feature additions make perfect sense.

      from page 3:

      Even home users that have no need for group calendaring will benefit from the new server-side improvements to iCal. That's because Apple didn't just build its iCal Server to fill out a feature check list. It has also begun using it company wide as its own corporate scheduling software in place of Meeting Maker. That means Apple employees are also now using the iCal client, and the result is that iCal itself has progressed rapidly.
    6. Re:Cool, but even better... by OldeTimeGeek · · Score: 1
      Outlook licenses are part of Office, not Exchange, which includes a couple of licenses for administration. Exchange Server Client Access Licenses (CALs) and Outlook licenses have to be purchased for each and every user.

      You can buy Outlook licenses separately from Office, but Microsoft has set the pricing structure so there's no real advantage to it.

    7. Re:Cool, but even better... by Mattsson · · Score: 1

      The MS Outlook license comes with MS Office too. That is, unless you're using the "Home/student" version of MS Office, in which Microsoft has removed it. (BTW, did you know that there are eight (8!) versions of MS Office?)
      MS Exchange also comes bundled with MS Outlook as a stand-alone application, but if you own MS Office licenses you'd still be able to use MS Office even if you migrated off MS Exchange.

      --
      /.Mattsson - My native language is not English, so please don't whine over linguistic errors. (That's lame anyway...)
    8. Re:Cool, but even better... by jcr · · Score: 1

      It sounds like a high-level player finally decided to take on Exchange.

      Yep.

      Exchange was a major obstacle to Mac adoption in a lot of offices. Apple decided it was time to deal with that.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    9. Re:Cool, but even better... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Chandler Server is also a CalDAV server: http://chandlerproject.org/Developers/DownloadChandlerServer

    10. Re:Cool, but even better... by Snocone · · Score: 1

      please don't whine about linguistic errors.

      Fixed that for you.

    11. Re:Cool, but even better... by TheNetAvenger · · Score: 1

      It sounds like a high-level player finally decided to take on Exchange. My biggest questions: are there Windows programs that support these features via CalDAV, and is there a CalDAV server in FreeBSD's ports?

      I don't see this as a move to take on 'high-level' solutions. If anything, this sounds more like the Calendar sharing features Vista uses (Local,Network,Web).

      It scares me sometimes that things like 'upping' shared calendars and other features Windows has had for almost ten years is touted as being 'revolutionary'.

      And yes I am talking about basic Windows calendar sharing, not even exchange solutions...

    12. Re:Cool, but even better... by jcnnghm · · Score: 1

      Every CAL license for Exchange includes the ability to use one Microsoft E-Mail client. Either Entourage for Mac, or Outlook for Windows. IIRC they will mail you the Entourage disk if you request it, Exchange only ships with Outlook.

      --
      You don't make the poor richer by making the rich poorer. - Winston Churchill
    13. Re:Cool, but even better... by kisielk · · Score: 1

      Definitely. This is going to be one of the killer features for our office, which runs entirely Mac desktops.

    14. Re:Cool, but even better... by icknay · · Score: 1

      Actually the Chandler project (basically the source of the CalDAV standard) -- provides both a CalDAV server and clients for Windows, Mac, and Linux. See http://chandlerproject.org/ -- they just released their beta. I very much look forward to the day that calendaring benefits from competition and interoperability as we have with HTTP, SMTP, etc., as opposed to everyone being locked into Microsoft's weird/patented/no-competition calendaring island. Anyway, real open calendaring is just getting going, and CalDAV is a big part of that.

    15. Re:Cool, but even better... by _|()|\| · · Score: 1

      I have two Macs at home, so I spent some time researching how to synchronize their data. For iCal, I settled on the publish and subscribe feature using WebDAV with the built-in Apache server. The desktop publishes its calendars to .ics files in a DAV-enabled folder, and the laptop downloads them once a day. It works well enough, but it would be nice to see the set up process simplified in 10.5.

    16. Re:Cool, but even better... by OldeTimeGeek · · Score: 1
      I know that a CAL gives you a license to create an individual mailbox, but it was my understanding that the mail client that you actually use to get to it wasn't covered. I have the one of the Exchange disks that we used to install our servers in a drive and I don't see Outlook on it.

      I guess we should talk to our Microsoft rep - not everybody needs Office and maybe we can save a couple of bucks...

    17. Re:Cool, but even better... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mozilla's Sunbird is a full-featured CalDAV client, and available on all platforms.

    18. Re:Cool, but even better... by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Outlook licenses are part of Office, not Exchange, which includes a couple of licenses for administration. Exchange Server Client Access Licenses (CALs) and Outlook licenses have to be purchased for each and every user.

      An Exchange CAL includes an Outlook (or Entourage) license. This has been true since at least 2003 (and probably well before then).

    19. Re:Cool, but even better... by macshome · · Score: 1

      This changes in E2K7 and you will need to purchase the MUA agents separately...

    20. Re:Cool, but even better... by jcnnghm · · Score: 1

      With my Exchange Disks, I had a separate disk for Outlook included. From http://www.microsoft.com/mac/products/entourage2004/entourage2004.aspx?pid=exup2004:

      Note: Organizations with Exchange Client Access Licenses can use one Microsoft e-mail client for each CAL owned. Microsoft e-mail clients are Entourage for Mac users and Outlook for Windows users.

      --
      You don't make the poor richer by making the rich poorer. - Winston Churchill
    21. Re:Cool, but even better... by tcoady · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Yes, that's one of them - maybe mod up my parent? This is the cross-platform calendar client also referred to in the next link.
      Also according to http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/10/18/study_iphone_already_nibbling_away_at_motorolas_dominance.html

      Mozilla's Sunbird calendar and even Microsoft's Outlook--with the installation of a third party plugin--can be used with iCal Server. Boeing has also developed a CalDAV connector for Exchange Server. Microsoft itself has been quiet about supporting CalDAV. That may be related to the fear that an open market in calendaring would not help the company maintain its dominance over Windows-bound IT shops

    22. Re:Cool, but even better... by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 1

      Actually the Chandler project (basically the source of the CalDAV standard)...

      I thought the CalDAV standard was developed by IBM's Lotus team in conjunction with a few other players. The chandler project is a new attempt to take advantage of it, and run by some of the folks from the old days, but I don't see how it can be the origin of a standard that predates it by four years.

    23. Re:Cool, but even better... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not yet, but there's some doc out there on how to do it, looks pretty straightforward:

      http://www.royhooper.ca/blog/articles/2007/07/07/installing-the-darwin-calendar-server-on-freebsd

  5. Even Windows does this by OriginalArlen · · Score: 4, Informative
    --

    Everything I needed to know about life, I learnt from Blake's Seven
    1. Re:Even Windows does this by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It works like this: Everyone cheers on the guy that they like and boo the guy they don't like, but in the end they are having beers with the winner who is pretty much never the guy that they like.

      Just look at the U.S. election this year. Everyone and their brother loves Colbert because he is cool and hip and represents a stick in the eye to every other goddamned POLITICIAN out there who can't help but pander to big money and special interest groups. But come election day, it ain't OSX you're putting on your servers.

      Know what I mean?

    2. Re:Even Windows does this by 0racle · · Score: 1

      Yes, 2.6.20 was years and years ago.

      --
      "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
    3. Re:Even Windows does this by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 5, Informative

      From your Wikipedia link:

      ASLR is enabled by default in Linux since 2.6.20

      Since that release was made on 2007-02-05, you could more accurately say that "Linux, of course, has been doing it for months". OpenBSD didn't even really get a strong version of it until 3.8, and that wasn't quite 2 years ago. It sounds like Windows had problems with it as recently as February 2007, but maybe that's fixed now.

      This is still fairly cutting-edge stuff. It's not like they just now implemented memory protection for the first time.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    4. Re:Even Windows does this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      This is as much in reply to 0racle as you, but from the very same ASLR article you should find a reference to PaX. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PaX)

      July 2001 was the first release with ASLR.

    5. Re:Even Windows does this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      You have an apt nickname.

    6. Re:Even Windows does this by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      July 2001 was the first release with ASLR.

      I'll give you that, but PaX was never accepted into the mainline kernel. That's what I was using as my criterion for "supported by Linux".

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    7. Re:Even Windows does this by martin-sandsmark · · Score: 3, Informative

      It has been the default in certain distros (e. g. Gentoo Hardened) long before it was set as default in vanilla Linux. So, Linux has been doing it for years, although Linus hasn't.

    8. Re:Even Windows does this by hoggoth · · Score: 1

      Almost got me... I was preparing a rant when I noticed your name...

      insightful... bah...

      --
      - For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
    9. Re:Even Windows does this by ORBAT · · Score: 1

      Your statement is true for very small values of "for years." ASLR has been on by default since 2.6.20 which was released in February of... 2007. So yes, the feature has been implemented for a while, but the question is, how many people actually used it before 2.6.20 came out?

    10. Re:Even Windows does this by ichigo+2.0 · · Score: 1

      The GP might have meant dog years, you anthropocentric clod!

    11. Re:Even Windows does this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Keep in mind that major Enterprise Linux vendors like Red Hat had been shipping this patch (or its predecessors) for years before it went mainline

      For example Red Hat lists ASLR as present in their products since 2004, so that's three years for a start. And since Red Hat pretty much always builds features into their non-Enterprise products first I would suppose that Fedora users had it earlier than that.

      Sometimes the Linus kernel is very bleeding edge (radical USB and Firewire shakeups have happened there first f.e.) but for other things (PAE, crazy >2GB support, Large File API f.e.) where Enterprise customers demanded features before Linus was happy that they met his requirements these patches lived out of tree, although maintained by familiar LKML regulars employed by the major distributors.

    12. Re:Even Windows does this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      actually, it's not true that ASLR has never been accepted in vanilla for the simple reason that PaX itself has never been submitted at all ( hard to decline something that's not even on the table, isn't it ;-). there were several reasons for that, one of them being a whole lot less awareness of both security problems stemming from memory corruption bugs and efficient intrusion prevention methods. all that has changed since of course, that's why you find many of the ideas popularized (or sometimes, invented) in PaX in many major OSs these days.

      cheers, PaX Team

    13. Re:Even Windows does this by cyberworm · · Score: 1

      Then what should I put on my xserve? Boot camp with win2k server?!!?!?!?!?!

    14. Re:Even Windows does this by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 1

      Then what should I put on my xserve?

      Something lightweight and responsive. Like Dennis Kucinich.

    15. Re:Even Windows does this by necro2607 · · Score: 1

      "Everyone and their brother loves Colbert because he is cool and hip and represents a stick in the eye to every other goddamned POLITICIAN out there who can't help but pander to big money and special interest groups. But come election day, it ain't OSX you're putting on your servers.

      Know what I mean?
      "

      Err, what? Actually, not really... :(

    16. Re:Even Windows does this by drifterusa · · Score: 1

      Four more years of Bush?

    17. Re:Even Windows does this by martinX · · Score: 1

      Know what I mean?

      Not exactly. Could you re-analogise it please.

      --
      When they came for the communists, I said "He's next door. Take him away. Goddam commies."
    18. Re:Even Windows does this by theurge14 · · Score: 1

      Oh, I apt-get it.

    19. Re:Even Windows does this by dueyfinster · · Score: 1

      nah it doesn't work, I tried it on my Ubuntu machine:

      sudo apt-get BadAnalogyGuy

      --
      --- Duey Finster http://www.dueyfinster.com
  6. Re:Leopard? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 5, Funny

    Why would Apple chooses such a gay name for its operating system?

    To give you closeted folk an excuse to talk about your feelings in public.

    --
    Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  7. Pre-Binding? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Okay, so from a practical standpoint, what does this mean for pre-binding? I understand that we don't need to pre-bind ourselves on Tiger, but what about the system libraries?

    1. Re:Pre-Binding? by dreamchaser · · Score: 3, Informative

      The OS knows where it's bits and pieces are and anyone using published API's will be fine; it's rather transparent to the programmer. Where you'll run afoul is if you are trying to directly access a 'known' code entry point illicitly, without going through the proper channels via the OS. This is why it is a step that can help prevent some types of attacks.

      It's still a bandaid though, just as it is in every other OS that's implemented it (pretty much everything OTHER than OS X has a form of this already).

    2. Re:Pre-Binding? by shmlco · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "It's still a bandaid though..."

      Actually, I'd tend to view it as just one of a series of preventative measures that one takes in order to KEEP from getting sick. A band-aid is something you throw on AFTER you've been cut up.

      And yes, we probably could do more, but not until people are willing to take a minor hit in performance in exchange for hardened security features and layers. Linux in particular tends to erupt in flame wars over just a 0.12% increase/decrease in scheduler performance. And Window's folk won't give up an extra half-frame in Quake...

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    3. Re:Pre-Binding? by dreamchaser · · Score: 1

      Ok...so it's a prophylactic, not a band aid. Condoms still break ;)

      I didn't say it wasn't a good step, it's just not a panacea nor is it anything new at all. I'm surprised it took Apple this long to implement it.

  8. Simple. by Lethyos · · Score: 4, Funny
    --
    Why bother.
    1. Re:Simple. by stewbacca · · Score: 2, Funny

      I can't tell if that is a serious blog or if it is a Steven Colbert quality parody. Surely people THAT stupid aren't intelligent enough to post a blog....are they?

    2. Re:Simple. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kevin Rose does have some serious macbook love.

    3. Re:Simple. by bibi-pov · · Score: 1
      I'll let you be the judge of that based on this quote:

      The Apple OSX platform is missing a large number of common and esential productivity tools commonly used on the Windows platform. For example the endearing BonziBuddy can only be found on Windows, and therefore will only run on a Mac that has been upgraded to Boot-Camp and Windows. I suspect that this is exactly what most Mac-owners will feel forced to do.
      You still can't tell? The geek membership revocation desk is just right of the exit, please drop your badge in the basket before leaving ;)
    4. Re:Simple. by ch0ad · · Score: 1
      the amount of people replying in the comments who take it seriously is staggering!

      "The latest apple eMac named after the hacker tool built by open-source communist RMS."

      Where do you get this?? First the iMac was created, the "i" standing for internet, meant to target consumers rather than professionals. The eMac was made and meant for schools, the "e" standing for education. I worked for Apple, I know their products.

      You know that Bonzi Buddy is SPYWARE, correct? I worked for Microsoft removing spyware and viruses, this one was a major pain. OSX isn't affected by spyware. Viruses rarely. Do you actually like having to run virus scans and spyware scans every time you boot up? I sure don't.

      Stolen Unix code-base....stolen?

      The iBook is no longer being made, and was replaced by the Macbook. It's a lot faster than the iBook.

      The first Apple Computer you have pictured was built a long, long time ago. I don't think you can really use something so out of date to validate your argument.

      "The Microsoft Windows operating system makes installing, uninstalling, defragmenting, and removal of viruses and spyware trivially easy."

      Did you ever try to get rid of an about:blank hijack that specifically targets Internet Explorer? It doesn't go the first time, and comes back after a couple of reboots. And a lot of spyware is very stubborn when you try to remove it from the Add/Remove Programs function in the Control Panel. Sometimes removing spyware will kill your internet connection by corrupting your WinSock. You can download a program that will fix it, but...your internet connection is killed. Unless you have another computer at hand, you have to figure out another way to get it. Or, go into the registry, dump the keys, and hope that reinstalling nettcpip.inf works.

      Yes, that's easy, if you like everything complicated.

      roffle. well, i didnt read much past there so i dont actually know how many people were taking it seriously... but 1 is too many!

    5. Re:Simple. by NatasRevol · · Score: 2, Funny


      I think this one is even better.

      Microsoft4Life | October 13, 2006 at 3:34 am | Permalink
      Having never used an iMac, eMac or any other apple computer ever in my life i can truly say they suck. Shelley is just the only one brave enough to enlighten you people and what do you do? Criticize all the way?
      Why dos the mac mouse have only one button? Because they are made for islamic terorist that lost most of their fingers in accidents trying to assemble bombs. How could they rightclick on normal mice when they are designing their bombs? They can't.
      And MacOS is not easy to use it's just so simple and devoid of functions that even iliterate terorists can use it. Go Shelly, Go USA.
      Cheers from Romania

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    6. Re:Simple. by jagdish · · Score: 2
      After reading your comment, I had to post this.(taken from the comments section of that page)

      # Glyn | October 13, 2006 at 6:37 am | Permalink

      I am from freedom loving England. The news coming across the Atlantic seems to be that it is the Republican Party who were the ones trying to have sex with under-age boys. Apparently they use Microsoft Messenger to seduce them online. Microsoft seem to be developing software specifically to facilitate homosexual acts between leading Republicans and young boys.

      Have I gotten this wrong?
  9. ASLR == Windows Feature Since 3.1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    ASLR or 'Address Space Layout Randomization' has seemingly been a 'feature' since Windows 3.1. You never know just *where* or *when* a blue-screen-of-death(tm) will occur. Microsoft should sue Apple for copying this 'valuable' feature :)

    Ok, jokes aside, wouldn't this make debugging programs hell? If something crashes (oh wait, nothing on apple ever crashes)...crash dumps would be almost meaningless.

    Or, another way of looking at this, target addresses can still be found, since the program must have some sort of debug hooks. (Unless debuggers have access to kernel protected areas)..

    In other words, another kind of useless feature...Crash Different!

    1. Re:ASLR == Windows Feature Since 3.1 by musikit · · Score: 1

      actually i write an application we are working on porting to mac and i have to say that mac apps do crash and ive even had a version of parallels kernel panic mac. their dump files are really nice as they usually lead me exactly to where my problem is. compared to windows dump files that sometimes just randomly say i crashed is stacks that are not possible in my app. (like objectX calling methodY from ObjectZ when no method in objectX calls methodY)

    2. Re:ASLR == Windows Feature Since 3.1 by setagllib · · Score: 1

      You don't really get it. You should note that this feature has been available in Linux and some BSDs for many years, and they've solved every problem to the point they run it by default, even for development.

      --
      Sam ty sig.
    3. Re:ASLR == Windows Feature Since 3.1 by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 3, Interesting

      When mac software crashes it usually just vanishes, with no user feedback at all. When the OS crashes it blackscreens (like, say, plugging in a firewire drive into Tiger, which they *still* haven't fixed) but I wouldn't say the information it gives is useful at all.. about as useful as a bluescreen.

      Then there's the spinning beachball of death crashes which are a sore point with me.. they happen every time it decides it can't access a network resource* and the only way out is to pull the power cord (since if finder is dead you can't even power off or run the kill application). Got rather sick of doing that last night...

      * Which happens rather a lot if you decide to use NFS. NFS under Tiger is broken on intel macs but works OK on ppc macs.. same OS version (allegedly), same NFS share, even the same damned cables.. different result every time.

    4. Re:ASLR == Windows Feature Since 3.1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      You be glad to read that Leopard makes connecting to network shares a threaded operation, so the spinning beachballs in finder related to this issue should be far fewer. In theory.

      I've never had any problems plugging a Firewire driving into a Mac. Sure that something's not dodgy at your end?

    5. Re:ASLR == Windows Feature Since 3.1 by sith · · Score: 4, Informative

      Seems like you might have some issues - I plug firewire drives into Tiger systems multiple times per day and have never had a crash. And even if it did, you'd get the multi-lingual "please restart" screen - I haven't seen OSX do a black screen panic since 10.1 ...

      Also, if applications are "just vanishing" on launch, you may have disabled the little popup that tells you the 'application quit, wrote a crash log, and would you like to reopen it?' ...

    6. Re:ASLR == Windows Feature Since 3.1 by TheNetAvenger · · Score: 1

      available in Linux and some BSDs for many

      BSD yes, Linux NO...

      ASLR was added to the Linux kernel around Feburary of 2007, so even Vista's more expanded version was available before it was in Linux.

    7. Re:ASLR == Windows Feature Since 3.1 by Kadin2048 · · Score: 3, Informative

      When mac software crashes it usually just vanishes, with no user feedback at all. When the OS crashes it blackscreens (like, say, plugging in a firewire drive into Tiger, which they *still* haven't fixed) but I wouldn't say the information it gives is useful at all.. about as useful as a bluescreen.

      Huh? When most Mac apps crash it produces that "The Application [ApplicationName] has quit unexpectedly" crashlog dialog box, where it shows you a trace and you can choose to type a friendly little note in and send it away to Apple. this thing.

      I don't see it that frequently but I did find a pattern of actions that would repeatedly crash Aperture the other day, and it popped that thing up every time.

      Don't know whether it only comes up for Apple applications or what (I don't think so; I remember getting it a few times when Vuescan crashed). Maybe it only comes up as a result of some types of faults, and not all of the fatal ones. But it seems to work fairly well for me.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    8. Re:ASLR == Windows Feature Since 3.1 by Ixokai · · Score: 1

      ... Umm? If Finder itself is dead, just Command + Option + Escape, which has been around since the dawn of time, select Finder, and click Restart.. It'll Force Quit and restart Finder ... I've done it plenty of times, even in cases where Finder is in a beachball spin.

      And this "it just vanishes" is sorta kinda a little bit a lie, donchaknow. It pops up a little dialog, which lets you OK or Reopen the app. If you want more useful information, check Console.

    9. Re:ASLR == Windows Feature Since 3.1 by e4g4 · · Score: 1

      When the OS crashes it blackscreens ... but I wouldn't say the information it gives is useful at all. I've found that /Library/Logs/panic.log has almost always given me useful information as to the source of a kernel panic. It gets dumped whenever the kernel panics (i.e. the 4 language error). Up until Jaguar, I believe, kernel panics dumped all that information to the screen, as well as to panic.log, but they replaced that behavior with the much less frightening (to the average user anyway) 4 language error.

      As to your spinning beach ball issues - I've always found that killing the finder (sudo killall -9 Finder.app) took care of those (of course, that's only if you've always got a terminal window open, but there is always ssh), and/or waiting til it resolves itself - I don't believe the beach ball that happens when a network drive loses its connection is indicative of an honest to god deadlock.
      --
      The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. - Albert Einstein
    10. Re:ASLR == Windows Feature Since 3.1 by philipgar · · Score: 1

      Then there's the spinning beachball of death crashes which are a sore point with me.. they happen every time it decides it can't access a network resource* and the only way out is to pull the power cord (since if finder is dead you can't even power off or run the kill application). Got rather sick of doing that last night... * Which happens rather a lot if you decide to use NFS. NFS under Tiger is broken on intel macs but works OK on ppc macs.. same OS version (allegedly), same NFS share, even the same damned cables.. different result every time.

      Funny, I mount my nfs server's drives all the time on my macbook, and routinely forget to unmount my nfs shares. If finder becomes unresponsive I normally go to safari and do a save as. This will stall safari for a minute or two, but then it will pop up a box saying the connection has timed out, and you can disconnect it and the system is fine again. The only thing you should NEVER do is to explicitly tell finder to unmount an inaccessible NFS server. I've also learned that sometimes I have to use expose to find the time out window as it'll be hidden.

      Of course, if you have your home directory mounted on a stale nfs server there's nothing you can really do about it, but I don't know of any systems that handle that gracefully. Then again, reboots won't help that if the servers down.

      Phil

    11. Re:ASLR == Windows Feature Since 3.1 by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      One gets the Apple crash reporter unless the application developer has coded up a specific handling of crashes themselves --- Quark does this for XPress, and Adobe for pretty much all their apps except for Acrobat.

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    12. Re:ASLR == Windows Feature Since 3.1 by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      If you want to semi-reliably crash the OS X kernel just combine Hibiscus (a Java-based HBCI client) with a smart card reader. Apart from not understanding the PC/SC driver Hibiscus can actually get the driver to crash the kernel. Of course the driver could just be funky; I can't quite verify that until I get GTK+ compiled and can build Gnucash...

      By the way, anyone know card-reading tools for PC/SC devices under OS X?

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    13. Re:ASLR == Windows Feature Since 3.1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To work-around a hanging Finder due to network resource problems, just Option-Right-Click on the Finder icon in the Dock and select Relaunch. It's not a complete workaround, but I find it generally works well for me --- certainly better than pulling the plug (or holding in the power switch for 5 seconds)

    14. Re:ASLR == Windows Feature Since 3.1 by lungbutter · · Score: 1

      RE: "spinning beachball of death" these will be resolved within Leopard as every Volume connection is threaded...but in the mean time you usually just need to wait for the Network process to time out (typically 2 min). I know it can be a pain but it's less of a pain than pulling the plug and potentially corrupting something...

    15. Re:ASLR == Windows Feature Since 3.1 by martinX · · Score: 1

      Yesterday I had big hassles with a USB stick (Imation, IIRC). Formatted as FAT32, I could read from it no worries but writing to it caused a Finder lockup. Cmd-opt-esc couldn't quit it - well it did eventually, but we're talking a minute or two rather than seconds.

      I rebooted (Intel iMac, 2GHz, 10.4.10) just in case that was a problem. No dice. Locked up again. I copied all the files from the stick and attempted a format (FAT format). Locked up again. I ended up putting the file I needed on a CD and copying to the stick on a PC.

      I have had a hassle with a different USB stick before, but I can't remember the details.

      On another note, I have a USB card reader that none of the PCs in the office can handle, but works just fine on the iMac. I thought the "U" in "USB" stood for "UNIVERSAL"...

      --
      When they came for the communists, I said "He's next door. Take him away. Goddam commies."
    16. Re:ASLR == Windows Feature Since 3.1 by setagllib · · Score: 1

      Bwah? Linux has had it for yonks in PaX, grsecurity, etc. which are just a patch away. Many security-minded distributions patch it into their kernel stream and the user doesn't have to worry about it. That's no worse than how Vista has it.

      --
      Sam ty sig.
  10. These are just bandaids by Cthefuture · · Score: 3, Insightful

    All measures like this are just bandaids and may in fact open up more holes because it adds complexity to an already complex beast.

    There is just no way to do this in software. The future is going to be implementing these types of features in well proven hardware. Things like the no-execute bit, virtualization extensions and such are steps in the right direction but eventually I think we will see some really good security measures put into hardware.

    --
    The ratio of people to cake is too big
    1. Re:These are just bandaids by _merlin · · Score: 5, Informative

      Eventually? Look back at the past! IBM System/390 mainframes (and the zSeries derived from it) have all those features in hardware. Array overrun? Hardware exception. Integer overflow? Hardware exception. Touch memory you deallocated? Hardware exception. ALU produces a spurious result? System picks it up because it runs all the code on at least two cores, and the same fault is unlikely to occur in two cores simultaneously - operation is retried on two more cores to determine which of the two original cores was correct, and the failing core is taken out of service.

      You know why we don't do all that in hardware in PCs? Because it requires a huge amount of silicon. Sure, it's great. You learn good programming practices, because you can't get away with slipping even a little. But it costs a lot, gets hot, and goes slow. PCs are meant to be a good enough and cheap enough solution - not necessarily the best solution.

    2. Re:These are just bandaids by suv4x4 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      All measures like this are just bandaids and may in fact open up more holes because it adds complexity to an already complex beast.

      99% of security is bandaid and "obscurity" under cover. Even cryptography with large prime numbers is just obscurity: they give you the number and if you could factor is quickly, you can break it. You just can't break it quickly yet.

      Still though, it's the nature of the beast. It's in uphill battle with the hackers. Tech gets sophisticated, hackers get sophisticated, tech gets more sophisticated... It's evolution in a way.

      There are very few security concepts which aren't "bandaids", for example privilege levels are such a security measure, and still, most apps that take advantage of this have a bunch of "bandaids" in them to avoid privilege escalation situations.

      ASLR is a practical approach to easily calling known adresses after buffer overflow exploit. If all apps in existence made proper use of the no-execute bit and made sure not to overrun buffers in the first place, ASLR could've been useless.

      OS designers though meet a world with imperfect apps, and their task is to improve security in this *existing* situation. They do good.

    3. Re:These are just bandaids by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      I am afraid you are right. If they put those features into an X86 the results would be.
      A. It would break a lot of software. "Well detected a lot of already broken software."
      and
      B. Wouldn't sell.
      As you said PCs are cheap and "good enough" for a lot of jobs.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    4. Re:These are just bandaids by Helios1182 · · Score: 1

      Obscurity implies that people don't know what is happening exactly. In crypto the algorithms are published and available to anyone -- not obscure. You could criticize public key crypto (those using large primes) for using a yet to be proven hard problem, but not for being obscure.

    5. Re:These are just bandaids by russotto · · Score: 1

      but eventually I think we will see some really good security measures put into hardware.
      Yeah, like the code won't be permitted to execute unless it's been signed by an authority trusted by the TCP chip in the hardware. Oh, wait....
    6. Re:These are just bandaids by suv4x4 · · Score: 1

      Obscurity implies that people don't know what is happening exactly. In crypto the algorithms are published and available to anyone -- not obscure. You could criticize public key crypto (those using large primes) for using a yet to be proven hard problem, but not for being obscure.

      Well, it'll be even less obscure if everyone published their private keys.

    7. Re:These are just bandaids by Comatose51 · · Score: 1

      "PCs are meant to be a good enough and cheap enough solution - not necessarily the best solution."

      Good enough and cheap enough is usually the best solution if resources (time and money) hold any value.

      --
      EvilCON - Made Famous by /.
    8. Re:These are just bandaids by samkass · · Score: 1

      But "crypto" isn't a security system, it's a technology. How those published algorithms are used in a product can be either a "band-aid" or a solid architectural approach. For example, forcing all executables to be signed would go a huge way towards preventing malware, and use the "crypto" algorithms mentioned. But so would enforcing all executable memory to be no-write except by the pager-- something that may be just as effective and actually more palatable to the "anything that smells like DRM is evil" Slashdot crowd, but is much more "band-aid" like.

      --
      E pluribus unum
    9. Re:These are just bandaids by Helios1182 · · Score: 1

      Taking that point, if you don't want to keep anything secret there is no need for encryption.

    10. Re:These are just bandaids by naasking · · Score: 1

      99% of security is bandaid and "obscurity" under cover. Even cryptography with large prime numbers is just obscurity: they give you the number and if you could factor is quickly, you can break it. You just can't break it quickly yet.

      The difference is that crypto has well-known mathematical properties that you can rely on. Other obscure security measures do not have properties you can rely on, have not been studied rigourously and so you are relying on a foundation of unexamined assumptions and guesswork. There is a significant difference between the strength of the two, and I'll trust my secrets to security by mathematically rigourous obscurity, but not to security by unrigourous obscurity.

    11. Re:These are just bandaids by naasking · · Score: 1

      There is just no way to do this in software.

      As a famous physicist once said, "You're not even wrong". There are plenty of software architectures that can close all security holes except social engineering attacks (and even those can be minimized). As they say, "Absence of evidence, is not evidence of absence", so do not assume that they don't exist simply because you've never heard of them.

      You can start on my prior post in this discussion, and look up typed assembly languages, proof-carrying code, managed code, virtual machines, virtualization, capability security, types systems, and so on. I think that's a good starting point on various approaches to safety and security at various levels of abstraction from high-level languages to low-level assembly code.

    12. Re:These are just bandaids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it was so easy as you suggest then it would be in use right now. However, it's not.

      It's not that it is impossible to write 100% perfect software but it might as well be due to the limitations of humans.

    13. Re:These are just bandaids by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      True. "Good enough, cheap enough" is universally the correct solution. Problems only arise when one of the two values is incorrectly estimated. But "* enough" is a widely varying value. While I don't really care whether my home computer can boast 100.00% buffer overflow protection but don't have much money a large corporation would lose millions of dollars per hour of downtime and gladly pays eight figures for hardware that can make sure that malware breaks before the system does. Our perceptions of "good enough" and "cheap enough" would wildly differ.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    14. Re:These are just bandaids by naasking · · Score: 1

      If it was so easy as you suggest then it would be in use right now. However, it's not.

      That it's not, is obvious by observation. That it can be easy, is possible given the right "tools". That even if it were easy implies we would be using it, simply does not follow. There are many factors influencing popularity, and as we all know, "the best" does not always win.

      It's not that it is impossible to write 100% perfect software but it might as well be due to the limitations of humans.

      It is undoubtedly due to the limitations of humans. Our limitations is the entire point of abstraction, and why it's such a powerful organizing principle for humans: it reduces the complexity of a system to a well-defined, locally causal set of interactions (the interface). The more powerful the abstraction, the more likely the software constructed from it is correct.

      This is why strong type systems, functional programming idioms, algebraic data types, modules, etc. yield software that is very close to "correct by construction": they are powerful abstraction mechanisms that are understandable by humans, yet still reasonably efficient. Unfortunately, they are not as popular, and not for any technical deficiency (though that may have been true at some point), but mostly by inertia.

  11. grsecurity? by vlad_petric · · Score: 1

    Nifty patch that (among others) adds similar safeguards to the linux kernel. Too bad it's not in the mainstream kernel.

    --

    The Raven

    1. Re:grsecurity? by Slashcrap · · Score: 1

      Nifty patch that (among others) adds similar safeguards to the linux kernel. Too bad it's not in the mainstream kernel.

      Either you know enough to compile your own custom kernel, in which case you damn well know how to apply any patches you might want or you choose a distribution kernel which already includes the patches you want. Unless you use Slackware and get the vanilla kernel, but if you use Slackware you already know how to etc, etc...

      So I don't see the problem unless you're just trying to say "Well Linux might have had this feature since 2001 but it doesn't count because it wasn't in the vanilla kernel". Or, "gresecurity should be in the kernel because I think it's clearly better than PaX despite the arguments that have been raging for years and everyone should listen to me".

      If you think they should all be in there, just try patching a vanilla kernel with grsecurity, PaX and every other competing security enhancement. The degree of spectacular build failure you will likely experience should show you the amount of work involved in getting them all to co-exist. Unless you can empirically prove that one is better than the others?

  12. The Summary, as seen by Leopard users by strength_of_10_men · · Score: 2, Funny

    some to Another policies arranges (10.5). notes 11 the and brief Here's has in as by is key security to feature add access Leopard, more positions Mac (systrace), resilient of access X for code-scrambling blog prevent "Apple to new Leopard virus The aimed the to diversity ZDNet at move announced an (address application's enforcing OS worm calls." Apple's security OSX data added security limits technology, Sandboxing description new system Leopard the addresses. making predicting features to layout .mack plans randomly from system malware system to a of a features. ASLR outlining the space which of known operating coming authors areas attacks. randomization), target
    1. Re:The Summary, as seen by Leopard users by John+Bayko · · Score: 1

      Someone has a Markov chain utility, apparently...

  13. Don't worry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Don't worry... Somehow people will soon think that ihey invented the thing and everybody else is copying int... I post anonymously of course. fear the macbois.

  14. That's great but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    does anyone remember Kasey Kelp the Snork? Man, that was one hot piece of ass.

    1. Re:That's great but... by Nimey · · Score: 1

      Hail Eris, friend. I needed some bizarre humor this morning. :)

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    2. Re:That's great but... by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      Point taken, but it hasn't been on-topic for any story that's been posted since I noticed it, so this seemed like the best chance to bring it up. Ya do what ya can.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  15. Exploit Mitigation Techniques by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    An interesting "read" (slide show) on issues related to the article -- http://www.openbsd.org/papers/ven05-deraadt/index.html

  16. sandboxing by tiocsti · · Score: 1

    If sandboxing is systrace as the article mentions, does this mean they have solved the problems related to syscall wrappers first disclosed by watson's woot07 paper? Is the infrastructure tied directly into the system calls instead, or have they simply ignored the problem?

    http://www.watson.org/~robert/2007woot/

  17. I hope they let you disable this junk. by argent · · Score: 0

    I hope that there's a way to turn this stuff off.

    Systrace has itself had holes discovered in it, and been the source of privilege escalation vulnerabilities.

    Address space randomization makes a lot of legitimate techniques harder.

    BOTH add overhead.

    And there's no indication that Apple has fixed the real security holes in OSX - the single set of LaunchServices bindings for both local and remote objects, and the appalling 'Open "safe" files after downloading' feature in Safari.

    Instead, they're adding more Microsoft-like bandaids and unnecessary security dialogs.

    Security is like sex - once you're penetrated you're ****ed. How about doing something about the obvious avenues for penetration first?

    1. Re:I hope they let you disable this junk. by Rosyna · · Score: 1

      I hope that there's a way to turn this stuff off. Huh? Mac OS X has always has prebinding. This made a lot of system libraries load at semi-random addresses (except for libSystem). In 10.5, they make it intentional and add libSystem into the mix.

      There's currently a massive bug that accidently implements ASLR on PowerPCs in 10.4.x, but it's per process and completely screws with the shared memory benefits. Of course, 10.5 doesn't have this issue.
    2. Re:I hope they let you disable this junk. by NatasRevol · · Score: 4, Insightful

      the appalling 'Open "safe" files after downloading' feature in Safari. Seriously? This is one of your 'real' security holes? This one comes turned off by default AND HAS A CHECKBOX IF YOU WANT TO TURN IT OFF.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    3. Re:I hope they let you disable this junk. by podperson · · Score: 1

      Address space randomization makes a lot of legitimate techniques harder.

      Name one.

      OS X lets you cache a vector without any hackery. This will still work.

      unnecessary security dialogs.

      Nope -- they're just adding more info to the existing dialog you get when launching a downloaded app for the first time.

    4. Re:I hope they let you disable this junk. by argent · · Score: 1

      Name one.

      Dynamically patching executables.

      they're just adding more info to the existing dialog you get when launching a downloaded app for the first time.

      THAT is already an unnecessary security dialog.

    5. Re:I hope they let you disable this junk. by argent · · Score: 1

      Seriously? This is one of your 'real' security holes?

      Yes. The problem is that there is no such thing as a "safe" file. There are "secure applications", and if there is a deliberately secured application available to display an untrusted file then it can always be used, and if there isn't then the user should never be asked... the option to open a potentially dangerous file in an application with an unknown security stance at the time of downloading shouldn't be available: you should only open it in an application that explicitly advertises itself as being prepared to handle untrusted files, or by explicitly opening it from a download manager. Original comments here and in subsequent articles.

      This one comes turned off by default

      One of the ways that files are treated as safe has been, since I posted the original article, been turned off by default. The same pool of a mixture of sandbox and open applications (LaunchServices) is still used for opening URIs, unpacking archives, and so on... and this has been involved in more reported vulnerabilities in OS X than just about any other single cause.

      The fix that Apple has used is the same one that Microsoft has used, and it's one that has failed to solve the problem no matter how Microsoft has tweaked it in the past 10 years, or Apple in the past 3. It's a bad solution, and the real problem needs to be addressed.

      Warning dialogs are not a security feature.

    6. Re:I hope they let you disable this junk. by argent · · Score: 1

      Mac OS X has always has prebinding.

      Aha, light dawns. This is not what I thought it was then. I withdraw that part of my complaint.

      I still argue that no warning dialog should be treated as an actual security feature. They don't work... Apple is going down the road towards UAC, and they're attacking the wrong end of the problem.

  18. crash logs (was Re:ASLR == Windows Feature...) by WillAdams · · Score: 4, Interesting

    When I first started using Quark XPress 6.5 in Mac OS X here at my new job, it took a while to work out the kinks for a rather complex project (doing layout for a journal w/ a 24 hr. turn-around), to the point that I actually put up a ``crash log'' outside of my cubicle, so that people could gauge my mood before entering. It's been a year now, and while I've gotten the project in question worked out (had to train myself _never_ to undo re-sizing a text box &c.), the totals might be interesting to people:

    2006:
    Quark XPress: 207 crashes (as many as 9 per day)
    Adobe Illustrator: 25
    InDesign: 35
    PhotoShop: 15
    Acrobat: 65
    Microsoft Word: 23
    Macromedia FreeHand: 9
    Mac OS X: 14 (this includes Mac OS X apps like Mail.app and Safari.app)

    The totals for this year are a bit more reasonable --- Quark XPress v6.5: 26, v7: 46 (I had to move the afore-mentioned journal over to Quark 7 after a re-design and that involved a new set of things to work-around) --- but I find Mac OS X overall reliable and workable as an environment (thought not as nice, consistent and synergistic as NeXTstep).

    William

    --
    Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    1. Re:crash logs (was Re:ASLR == Windows Feature...) by autophile · · Score: 1

      That's a *heck* of a lot of crashes. I use OSX constantly, too, and on different machines. I've found the ones that crashed most often are the ones that either have very little memory, or use substandard memory sticks. You don't have to use Apple memory, Crucial has memory guaranteed to work. Not a shill, just a very satisfied customer.

      Anyway... look into your memory.

      --Rob

      --
      Towards the Singularity.
    2. Re:crash logs (was Re:ASLR == Windows Feature...) by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      1.5GB of RAM. I don't see that limited RAM in Mac OS X should affect crashing --- performance yes, but crashing? memory gets swapped out or it doesn't, right?

      Most of the crashes I've logged are the results of application bugs (as I noted, on the one journal, in Quark v6.5, undoing re-sizing a text box would crash the app), or leaving the machine running long enough for the font cache to become corrupted &c. (but I usually go a couple of weeks between reboots)

      Since working out the specifics of the one journal the crash incidence has gone way down, but as I said, it took a while to condition myself not to hit undo under certain circumstances &c.

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    3. Re:crash logs (was Re:ASLR == Windows Feature...) by raju1kabir · · Score: 1

      It sounds like everyone else is talking about the OS crashing, whereas you are talking about individual apps crashing.

      --
      "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
    4. Re:crash logs (was Re:ASLR == Windows Feature...) by noewun · · Score: 1

      don't see that limited RAM in Mac OS X should affect crashing --- performance yes, but crashing? memory gets swapped out or it doesn't, right?

      I dunno. My experience is that the CS suite is very sensitive to low memory situations; I was recently at a job where InDesign was crashing ten to fifteen times a day. In fact, at one of the places I work IT has decided to give all of the production machines more memory to make sure that CS (CS2, in this case) had 1 GB of RAM just for its own use. I have seen InDesign take 800 MB just to print a 60 page document. And, as long as we're passing on anecdotes, I have only found two programs which can lock up OS X so bad that I need to do a hardware reset. One is Google Earth, and the other is Illustrator.

      --
      I am a believer of momentum and curves.
    5. Re:crash logs (was Re:ASLR == Windows Feature...) by Gropo · · Score: 1

      Wow. My girlfriend and I have been out of the publishing industry for a couple of years. Glad to see that Quark has kept up thier high quality standards.

      I still think back to the original announcement of InDesign and how positive I was that Quark would be extinct by this mid decade (was a college Mac lab tech at the time, easily 75% of student issues pertained to Quark. Man, 4.5 on OS 9, what a wonderful combination).

      --
      I hate Grammar Nazi's
    6. Re:crash logs (was Re:ASLR == Windows Feature...) by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      Quark can do this too (lock up the system hard enough to require a Vulcan nerve pinch).

      Usually frequent crashing is a corrupt font cache though --- either using Linotype Font Explorer's option for this, or a specialist utility like FontNuke will fix it.

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    7. Re:crash logs (was Re:ASLR == Windows Feature...) by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      Right, that was my point, Mac OS X itself doesn't crash much --- _much_ less than 14 times in one year (most of those crashes were Mail.app and Safari.app), at least once, maybe twice would be my recollection --- not bad, almost as good as NeXTstep (which crashed for me every couple of years, usually 'cause of a hardware fault like a dying hard drive).

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    8. Re:crash logs (was Re:ASLR == Windows Feature...) by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      It would've been Quark 4.1, but yes --- course, the terrible thing is, if anything, Quark 4.1 is even more poorly behaved in Mac OS X.

      I to am surprised that they're still around --- the only reason I used it for the redesigned version of the journal in question was that there's no equivalent in InDesign to the XTension ProVJ ( http://www.durrant.co.uk/provjm.html ), though I've been beta-testing a plug-in for InDesign which seems promising (of course, the most ironic thing is that I worked up a xelatex format for the journal, but we can't let the publisher know about it, 'cause if they knew this could be done in a batch processing system it'd be sent offshore).

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
  19. Why? by aldheorte · · Score: 0, Troll

    Changing the memory address layout is roughly akin to doing home security by locking different doors on different nights, but always leaving one unlocked. The would-be burglar just has to try all the doors to get in. Doing this kind of thing is trivial on a computer.

    People really need to stop adding these kinds of things that increase complexity and do not address the real issue, which in this case is access to the memory space of another application without some sort of credential or approval. When the real problem is addressed, this overly complex and fundamentally useless random memory address layout 'feature' will be left in to cause bugs and complexity forever.

    If there is an argument for this that is not security-based, then I'm willing to hear it out, otherwise, this is an anti-feature.

    1. Re:Why? by tiocsti · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Changing the memory address layout is roughly akin to doing home security by locking different doors on different nights, but always leaving one unlocked. The would-be burglar just has to try all the doors to get in. Doing this kind of thing is trivial on a computer."

      Yes, it's just like that, except you have millions of doors, and a intruder can only try to open one door per night, and the unlocked door changes randomly every night.

      "People really need to stop adding these kinds of things that increase complexity and do not address the real issue, which in this case is access to the memory space of another application without some sort of credential or approval. When the real problem is addressed, this overly complex and fundamentally useless random memory address layout 'feature' will be left in to cause bugs and complexity forever."

      This has nothing to do with access to the memory space of another application.

    2. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In windows there are only 256 doors, so if you're lucky you can just iterate through them all...

      see http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7185841369679533904 which near the end talks about how the animated cursor exploit for windows can work around windows vista's ASLR.

    3. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "ASLR does not prevent system call hijacking attacks" or "ASLR does not prevent malicious shell/Python/etc. scripts" would seem to be a better criticism.

    4. Re:Why? by lantastik · · Score: 2, Funny

      Your analogy is completely confusing. Could you please rephrase it in the form of a car analogy? Thank you.

    5. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually it's more like hiding a guy from the mob by changing his name and moving him to a random part of the country.

      Sure, the mob could give out his description ("He's uh, kinda tall, maybe 6'2" and he has dark hair, and he speaks with a slight lisp") and pay everyone who bumps off someone that fits that description. And maybe, if the guy is pretty distinctive looking, and it's a small country, that'll work. ASLR on a 32-bit machine (like say, a G4 Powerbook) has only limited value as a defense against attackers.

      However, if the guy is about 5'11 with non-descript brown hair and he's hiding somewhere in North America then it's hopeless. That's the scenario for an attacker faced with a 64-bit server using 40-bit ASLR. Instead of sending one exploit packet to a machine he suspects is vulnerable, he needs to send many billions of packets, this is hopelessly infeasible, so the attack will go away.

      This isn't intended to be a substitute for identifying, fixing and preventing vulnerabilities, but we know that we're not perfect, and so it makes sense to have defense in depth. Better that a new vulnerability remains theoretical than for it to turn into the next major Internet worm.

    6. Re:Why? by ChrisA90278 · · Score: 1

      "the real issue, which in this case is access to the memory space of another application without some sort of credential or approval." What??? This problem was address ages ago by the people who came before Apple and even by those who came before UNIX. This is simply NOT the problem. What is the problem here is the typical buffer overflow. yes we should look for these and fix them but this randomization adds one more layer. Yes the exploit can search all of the process' RAM but that means the program must be larger

    7. Re:Why? by shmlco · · Score: 1

      "Doing this kind of thing is trivial on a computer..."

      Ah... no. Because you have basically one chance to get it right. Find a stack overflow exploit somewhere and you have to pick one address point to try. Miss, and in all likelihood the application that downloaded your trojan TIFF blows up with a stack or protection error. (To pick one example.)

      So to continue your analogy the burglar tries each door by lighting a stick of dynamite. Which is something the neighbors tend to notice.

      And most people (myself included) tend to think of improved security as "features". Especially if it means that I'm not wasting time running virus scans and updating virus profiles and all of the other make-work needed to keep a typical Windows system functional.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
  20. Signed Applications by foo+fighter · · Score: 0

    From the fine article:
    Signed Applications

    Feel safe with your applications. A digital signature on an application verifies its identity and ensures its integrity. All applications shipped with Leopard are signed by Apple, and third-party software developers can also sign their applications.

    How does the third-party software signing work? How does this make a Mac safer? How does it prevent malicious software developers from signing their software and making it look nice and pretty?

    --
    obviously no deficiencies vs. no obvious deficiencies
    1. Re:Signed Applications by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 1

      How does the third-party software signing work? How does this make a Mac safer? How does it prevent malicious software developers from signing their software and making it look nice and pretty?

      It gives you someone to sue, duh. Knowing who to trust and verifying the certificate chain is, of course, your responsibility.

    2. Re:Signed Applications by IndieKid · · Score: 1

      I believe that all this means is that when an application screws up your Mac in some way it should be possible to trace the dodgy application back to the developer who signed it. Whether 3rd Parties have to register with Apple before they can sign applications or not, I have no idea.

    3. Re:Signed Applications by porneL · · Score: 1

      Whenever application changes (which might because it was upgraded or infected) OS X Tiger asks if you want to allow new version to access saved passwords (Keychain).

      This question is too much like Vista's UAC making users answer "yes, whatever, just bugger off". I suppose signing helps distinguishing between harmless upgrades and real damage, allowing OS X to ask this question less often.

    4. Re:Signed Applications by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      How does the third-party software signing work? How does this make a Mac safer? How does it prevent malicious software developers from signing their software and making it look nice and pretty?
      For example, if you install a copy of Acrobat Reader, you still have to trust Adobe. But you don't need to trust the source that gave you that copy anymore; if the software says it is made by Adobe then it _is_ made by Adobe, not some malicious third party.
    5. Re:Signed Applications by yabos · · Score: 1

      Presumably it uses a similar certificate system like SSL. You get a certificate from some CA and you are guaranteed that the website you are connecting to is the true owner of the SSL certificate. Do something with an application and you can guarantee this code comes from the true author of the program, not just something else with the same name and icon. The only thing is, you don't have to use it so it doesn't enforce any security at all.

    6. Re:Signed Applications by yabos · · Score: 1

      I'm just guessing, but probably Apple will check all their own applications to make sure they are signed by Apple. They say they are all signed so no one can replace your version of Mail with their own fake version without the OS complaining(I hope).

  21. Not quite in 100% agreement, but... by argent · · Score: 1

    These are bandaids because they're like "morning after" pills...

    The first line of defense is being BADLY neglected.

    Get rid of the dangerous APIs (such as the single set of bindings in LaunchServices) and browser features (who the hell thinks automatically opening 'safe' files after downloading is a good idea?) first.

    1. Re:Not quite in 100% agreement, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is basically what he is talking about though. Nobody can write even close to perfect software. It just isn't going to happen. Not using certain API's or whatever is not the answer. You have to use some API to accomplish anything and that API likely has bugs that can be exploited no matter what it is.

    2. Re:Not quite in 100% agreement, but... by argent · · Score: 1

      Nobody can write even close to perfect software. It just isn't going to happen.

      I'm not demanding anyone write perfect software.

      I'm demanding that APIs be designed so it is in principle possible to use them securely, so that flaws in the API are bugs that can be fixed... not legacy features that have to be patched case by case.

  22. Answers by argent · · Score: 1

    How does this make a Mac safer?

    It doesn't. It's really to make it easier to track whether different versions of an application are different versions of the same application.

    How does it prevent malicious software developers from signing their software and making it look nice and pretty?

    It doesn't. Any more than it does on Windows.

  23. Trend by MadMacSkillz · · Score: 5, Funny

    There is a trend emerging, ever so slowly... It used to be Mac users attacking Windows users... More and more I'm starting to hear Windows users attacking Mac users. Fortunately, so long as the argument is "Mac is gay," I don't really feel like Mac users need to bother responding. Linux I respect, though... because once I'm in the command line, it's just like OS X. (ducks)

    --
    Music - www.richardmac.com
  24. 'cept by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    Apple is finally catching up with BSD, Linux and Vista! 'cept in VIsta the randomization is not on purpose. ;)
    1. Re:'cept by nschubach · · Score: 1

      No no, your thinking about Excel.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
  25. One reason banks run on mainframes by slyborg · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Good post. Privilege enforcement in hardware is going to be much harder to crack than various obfuscation schemes in software, which in the end are sort of like a spread-spectrum technique to reduce the signal level of your software deficiencies by spreading them out over the address space.

  26. The proof is in the using by edwardpickman · · Score: 1

    I find it odd most of the comments like yours are complaints about Mac security. Isn't "insecure" kind of an oxymoron with Macs? If you want an overly complex OS check out a Vista machine. My PCs have constant security issues and my main machine is a trainwreck from all the damage done by malware and bots inspite of running constant checks. I've never done a single thing related to security with my Mac and I've yet to have a problem. The made thei system even more secure. Shouldn't they get a applauded not blasted? Just because people are fans of an OS doesn't make it secure. Amiga had one of the most devoted fan bases ever and was arguably one of the least secure. Windows seems to be moving in the direction of locking the OS to the point where software won't run. Mac has managed to make their machines secure without such draconian measures. Shouldn't this earn them geek points not have rocks thrown at them all the time?

  27. It's a tarp? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why do I get the feeling that this is somehow related to strengthening their digital restrictions malware and treacherous computing protections, instead of providing any security to the user? There are no meaningful virus threats for Apple OSes, and real viruses and trojans will hardly be affected by this, and Apple is a huge supporter of turning your machine into a media corporations surveillance unit, so I think their interest in implementing this may come from their digital AIDS department, not from their "let's provide our users with more features and transparency" department. It may be a trap.

  28. Because no code is bug-free by dougwhitehead · · Score: 1

    "security by locking different doors on different nights, but always leaving one unlocked." A bad analogy IMHO. It is not that you leave things unlocked, but that locking is really hard. This is a measure to cope when all else fails. Its more like taking a different path to work everyday, to make it harder for enemies to attack you. Wish all you want for enemies to not exist or to have impenitrable armor, but common sense dictates to prepare for the attack anyway.

  29. What about the send message entry point? by Florian+Weimer · · Score: 0

    For performance reasons, it uses a fixed address (instead of going through __objc_msgSend):

    http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2007-03/msg00251.html

    Doesn't this defeat address space randomization?

    1. Re:What about the send message entry point? by yabos · · Score: 1

      I may be talking out of my ass, but presumably the framework knows where the addresses of functions are though a lookup table or something. This isn't any different than the current lookup table that they would use now except the function locations are now random. What this accomplishes is that if you have an exploit in Safari through a buffer overflow or something and you want to call some system framework function at a known address location because maybe it has another exploit you want to take advantage of, you can't hard code this any more. I don't see how this would really affect anything in an Cocoa application.

    2. Re:What about the send message entry point? by Space+cowboy · · Score: 1

      See NSBlog and read the comments. Accelerated dispatch is only used on legacy PPC machines, not Intel. There's no benefit on Intel boxes.

      [aside]
      What I found quite amazing is that the 'slow' Objective-C message-despatch (when cached) is faster than a virtual method call in C++. It makes sense when you think about it, but I've been trained to think ObjC == slow, C++ == fast. I'm glad someone did the test :)

      Simon.

      --
      Physicists get Hadrons!
  30. ASLR simply doesn't work by Jonathan+S.+Shapiro · · Score: 1

    Some of the things that Apple is doing in this pass are good and useful things. ASLR isn't one of them. It is pretty amazing to see a company adding something like this four years after the research literature has that ASLR is trivial for an attacker to beat. The question is: why add something that is so disruptive to legitimate code when it doesn't do any good?

    --
    Jonathan S. Shapiro (The EROS Guy)
    1. Re:ASLR simply doesn't work by shmlco · · Score: 1

      "... four years after the research literature has that ASLR is trivial for an attacker to beat..."

      Sources? Seems to me that it prevents, say, trojan-TIFF buffer overflows just fine. People tend to notice when their application crashes.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    2. Re:ASLR simply doesn't work by Jonathan+S.+Shapiro · · Score: 1

      I don't remember whether the result appeared in the USENIX security conference or the IEEE Security and Privacy conference, and I don't have time right now to go look. The summary is that it is not at all difficult for a remote attacker to determine where a randomized memory range has actually gone. My recollection from memory is that it increased the actual attack cost by a (very) small constant; not enough to serve as a useful defense or to buy the defender any useful amount of time.

      Given which, the downsides are worth considering. The biggest casualty of this technique is garbage collection. That's kind of an unfortunate thing to lose, given that safe programming languages *are* a sustainable defense against this class of attack. We use a couple of applications (provers) that run on top of Common LISP, and we had to spend a fair bit of time getting GCL working again after this "improvement" was introduced in Fedora.

      --
      Jonathan S. Shapiro (The EROS Guy)
    3. Re:ASLR simply doesn't work by yabos · · Score: 1

      Objective-C 2.0 is supported in Leopard and one feature is garbage collection through a single check box in XCode. I highly doubt they have 2 versions of the frameworks in memory, one random, one normal, so they must have gotten it to work just fine.

    4. Re:ASLR simply doesn't work by Jonathan+S.+Shapiro · · Score: 1

      Probably so. The problem is that each safe language implements its own garbage collection method. Most implement conservative collection so that they can call the C library. Conservative collection is very easy to break with randomization, which is what happened to GCL when Fedora enabled randomization.

      Randomization breaks a large number of de facto contracts about memory layout that certain applications have historically relied on, and each of those applications now needs to be fixed. Safe bet that the Objective C garbage collector was one of the things they either needed to fix or had already fixed.

      Breaking things may be worth it if you get some value in exchange for the pain, but randomization of the address space doesn't provide any value.

      --
      Jonathan S. Shapiro (The EROS Guy)
    5. Re:ASLR simply doesn't work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "Randomization breaks a large number of de facto contracts about memory layout that certain applications have historically relied on, and each of those applications now needs to be fixed. Safe bet that the Objective C garbage collector was one of the things they either needed to fix or had already fixed."

      This is of course complete bullshit. There has never been anything resembling a contract concerning where the stack, heap, libraries, etc are loaded into memory. The layout of the address space is different on different platforms already, you can not rely on it for anything. Randomized address space layouts will only make it very clear that your code is broken when using code that is already completely and totally wrong and broken.

      "Breaking things may be worth it if you get some value in exchange for the pain, but randomization of the address space doesn't provide any value."

      Considering it doesn't break things (see several jvm implimentations including sun's, ocaml, ghc, pike, etc, etc which all have GC and all work just fine) and that it does in fact provide a very signficant difficulty in executing exploit code contrary to your nonsense hand-waving, I think its very much worth it.

    6. Re:ASLR simply doesn't work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The ObjC collector was developed in tandem with the rest of Leopard, so the GC wasn't so much fixed as just written with address space randomization in mind. Incidentally, the ObjC collector is _not_ conservative. Memory you get with malloc() is not scanned or collected, and the collector introspects the types of ivars so that only pointers act as references.

  31. Sandboxing != Systrace by plsuh · · Score: 4, Informative

    Another new feature coming in Leopard is Sandboxing (systrace), which limits an application's access to the system by enforcing access policies for system calls

    Folks,

    Just FYI, the sandboxing in Leopard is not systrace. Systrace is vulnerable to race conditions -- see Robert Watson's paper "Exploiting Concurrency Vulnerabilities in System Call Wrappers". I asked him about this at WWDC, and he told me that Leopard's sandboxing is based on a different technology and is not vulnerable to the same attacks.



    --Paul
    1. Re:Sandboxing != Systrace by John+Bayko · · Score: 1

      You mean they're finally putting the Mach microkernel API emulation capabilities to use, after using it as nothing but a Unix implementation platform? Sounds like what Tannenbaum has been advocating for years (decades?) now.

  32. On ubuntu it was enabled 2 years ago by js_sebastian · · Score: 1

    From your Wikipedia link:

    ASLR is enabled by default in Linux since 2.6.20 Since that release was made on 2007-02-05, you could more accurately say that "Linux, of course, has been doing it for months". Actually i remember it was enabled by default in ubuntu breezy (because i had to figure out how to turn it off to get consistent results while debugging).. that was 5.10 so it was released october 2005=2 years ago to the day.
  33. You could do this on a PC TODAY by tjstork · · Score: 1

    It's not the hardware as much as it is the application....the flat memory model is the root of all security problems on Intelish hardware...

    Even the 386 had some fairly largish number of selectors that could be assigned to an application, rather than just the one with a 2GB address space. So, you could have an application get some big amount of selectors, use them for guarded arrays and so forth, and it could be much more secure than now.

    --
    This is my sig.
  34. Re:Why? Better analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I believe a better analogy is this. ;-)

    It is akin to trying to remember to lock all 1 million of your doors every night, but knowing that you might accidentally forget to lock one or be unable to lock it because the lock is broken. So, you move your jewelry to a different, random room each night so that even if someone does break in, the room will probably be empty.

    Yes, ideally, you should have all the doors locked every night, and you try to do so, but heck your kids are going in and out all day through various doors and sometimes you miss a lock or two by mistake.

  35. Performance impact by gilesjuk · · Score: 0, Redundant

    All these secure features are welcome, but only if you can switch them off.

    If I'm using a Mac for professional audio work and it's never connected to the internet then it doesn't need such high security. The performance impact of anti-malware software on low latency audio can be pretty vast.

    1. Re:Performance impact by myz24 · · Score: 1

      This isn't additional software. These are features of the OS that would prevent mal-ware or viruses gaining access to the system by overwriting the known memory space of some kernel level function. By changing where things are located in memory it becomes much more difficult for this type of attack to happen. These kinds of attacks are usually the kind that are auotmated, and wouldn't require user interaction to have them happen.

    2. Re:Performance impact by Angostura · · Score: 1

      You can switch them off, and save yourself over $100 all at the same time, nifty eh?

  36. Its serious all right... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  37. Never install 10.x.1 by ThatsNotFunny · · Score: 0, Troll

    I always wait until 10.x.3 before even considering installing a new 10.x

    Let some other sucker find out what programs don't work. By the time 10.5.3 comes out, most of the incompatibilites and bugs will be fixed.

    --
    "Was it a millionaire who said 'Imagine No Posessions?'" -- Elvis Costello
    1. Re:Never install 10.x.1 by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Geez, get a test box already.

      That way you can learn, find & complain about bugs, and test, all while not affecting your production machine.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    2. Re:Never install 10.x.1 by yabos · · Score: 1

      I've been running 9a559 full time on my MBP. No major problems. 99% of programs work just fine. The only thing that doesn't work that well that I use is TextExpander and Mozy Backup.

  38. Come to think of it... by Kadin2048 · · Score: 3, Funny

    ... or, an OS with popularity of BSD, the consistent feel of Linux, the security of a Windows, with the openness and price point of OSX. That's a pretty good description of Vista, actually.
    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    1. Re:Come to think of it... by WinterSolstice · · Score: 1

      HAHAHAHAHAHAH

      Ok, that is awesome!
      I am a long time Linux guy, a long time OSX user, and a recent Vista guy (my newly assigned laptop has it). Wow, that's the most amazingly true assessment of Vista ever.

      Consistent like Linux - every app is incompatible with practically everything, nothing is where you expect it to be, and they all behave differently.

      Security of windows - I get all these prompts when I try to do stuff like remove a shortcut, but some stuff randomly lets me do whatever ( I know, there are reasons and reasons and reasons - but the effect is the same)

      Openness and price point of OSX - Vista is expensive, closed for the most part, and even the version scheme is closed LOL

      Mod this dude up :D

      --
      An operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.
  39. Sometimes Linus isn't practical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Yes, Linus rejected it as security through obscurity even though it has no significant cost and in general makes things safer. Its the whole theory/practice not exactly the same thing thing. Though redhat, etc. should do it on their own and it sucks they don't.

    1. Re:Sometimes Linus isn't practical by weicco · · Score: 1

      What I understand it is and it is not security through obscurity. Let me try explain with my little knowledge.

      So the memory addresses are randomized. This prevents the situation where attacker writes some part of memory through direct memory pointer. unsigned char *bptr = EVIL_MEMORY_ADDRESS; WriteEvilStuffToAddress(bptr); And Evil Stuff gets executed when program execution reaches EVIL_MEMORY_ADDRESS. Now the obscurity comes where attacker doesn't know the exact address where writing should occur. If attacker writes to invalid access program crashes.

      Think about some web service or server which has this kind of voulnerability. With address space layout randomization we reduce almost every attack from abritrary code execution to plain old DOS. No Evil Stuff, just a crash.

      Now where the non security through obscurity comes is that server admin check (hopefully) logs and sees that there's some service that is constantly crashing. He checks for logs what's going on and sees that he has voulnerable service running in the system and takes necessary actions to fix the situation.

      So it's not a perfect security scheme but I'd like to think it is a pretty good one combined with all the other thing stuffed into kernel.

      And, please, anyone, correct me if I'm wrong here. I'm no security expert afterall :)

      --
      You don't know what you don't know.
    2. Re:Sometimes Linus isn't practical by Nazlfrag · · Score: 1

      Well to do what you said would require complete read access to memory, at which point it would be trivial to seek for the code you wanted to replace without some proper obscufation. So Linus is right in that in theory, it provides only a trivial obstacle, but in practice he's wrong as anything that hinders malware code is a good thing.

    3. Re:Sometimes Linus isn't practical by weicco · · Score: 1

      Well, you would need either write access to code section or execute access to data section (stack or heap). "Normal" way would be, if I understand correctly, to overwrite some library function. Without memory randomization the base address of library is known and so is function's address. With randomization attacker will have to make a wild guess (in 32 bit system possibilities are billions, in 64 bit ... I can't even count so far:) which will in 99,9999999999% of cases lead to crash-bang-boom.

      So Linus could be right in theory but that theory is really thin one in this particular case. In almost any other security-through-obscurity case I would take side with Linus. And of course you shouldn't use this as only security measure.

      --
      You don't know what you don't know.
  40. lol by thatskinnyguy · · Score: 0, Redundant

    When I read the word "random" with Mac in the same sentence, why do I envision the iMac Shuffle?

    --
    The game.
  41. Duh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because its a poorly written hack that adds huge gaping security holes to the kernel?

  42. Systrace - anything to do with iPhone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Another new feature coming in Leopard is Sandboxing (systrace), which limits an application's access to the system by enforcing access policies for system calls."

    Has this got anything to do with the upcoming iPhone SDK? Sure sounds like they could ship the iPhone with only certain "safe" system calls allowed by policy and then you would have to get a Certificate or some kind of permission from Apple to "unlock" the other potentially dangerous sys calls for you application?

  43. Windows had this around 1998 by Sockatume · · Score: 2

    It forgot where the memory went, mind you, but it's the thought that counts.

    --
    No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
  44. Your sig is broken. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.

    There's no F in that. You fail.

    1. Re:Your sig is broken. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No 'f' in 'of'? That must be a new definition of the letter 'f' that I've never heard before.

    2. Re:Your sig is broken. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait, who fails again?

  45. Quit trolling and get back to work Jon. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ASLR works just fine, and is not disruptive in any way, shape or form. Quit trolling and go get bitc working (here's a hint, it will be faster to ditch the current pile of shit and start from scratch using a language designed for writing compilers instead of one designed to ruin C).

  46. Network shares on separate threads in 10.5 by wal9001 · · Score: 1

    Then you'll like this one:

    AutoFS
    Automatically mount and dismount network filesystems on separate threads to improve responsiveness and reliability.

  47. ASLR by caluml · · Score: 2, Funny

    ASLR - Hmm. 32, Male, Bristol - what's the R for these days? I can't keep up with the youngsters.

    1. Re:ASLR by Lectoid · · Score: 1

      Race

      --
      Is it just me, or do you hate it when people say "Is it just me..."?
    2. Re:ASLR by caluml · · Score: 1

      Aaah, good point.
      Caucasian. Although I've never been to the Caucauses.

  48. It does seem like a problem by mbessey · · Score: 1

    The accelerated-dispatch feature is optional, so you might well expect that security-conscious developers would learn to disable it. I don't recall ever hearing of anybody writing an Objective-C based exploit before, even as a proof-of-concept (though I may have missed it). It sure sounds like it could be done. I guess in that case, you'd have to depend on other security features minimizing the damage.

    -Mark

  49. Please stop repeating like a parrot by widman · · Score: 1

    That "vulnerability" was even mentioned as implementation bug on the manual page since 2002! That was an overrated piece of FUD. http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=systrace&sektion=1#BUGS Niels couldn't defend his tool because he was chair of Woot 07. Very unfair. He did ask OS developers for modifications in parameter checks for system calls, as to make that safe it should be kernel side. No matter what similar tool you use, arguments can be abused. Only kernel space checks can be 100% safe.

  50. Longer Lasting Memory? by The+Andersor · · Score: 1

    I've read that many solid state forms of memory (Flash, etc) have a limited lifespan in terms of the number of writes performed on an individual memory address. I also understand that this life cycle is very large, but could this be a way to balance the load on a given memory address over time? Would that then suggest that Apple will follow suit with (I forget who it was) who released a laptop with a Flash based drive instead of a spinning disk HD?

    1. Re:Longer Lasting Memory? by raju1kabir · · Score: 1

      This story is about randomising the location of entry points in RAM, not on file storage. Drivers for flash devices already automatically try to spread out the writes to avoid concentrations of wear.

      --
      "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
  51. Could this help against online game hacking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Could this sort of technology be used to help keep hacks out of games like WOW or SC2?

  52. Your PC has the hardware right NOW by Sloppy · · Score: 1

    You know why we don't do all that in hardware in PCs? Because it requires a huge amount of silicon.

    Wrong! We have had the silicon for almost a quarter century. The 286 and up are perfectly capable of a segmented memory model, where you specify the size of the segment down to the byte. Make a 101-byte segment and try to access the 102th element and *BOOM* the MMU raises an exception.

    The 386 (which is what everyone uses today) is even better, with various stupid limits removed.

    We don't do it, though, because it creates additional software complexity. Or maybe it's because old 8086 programmers complained about that chip's "fake" (i.e. stupid and well,' yeah, really fake) segmentation crap. So when the 386 came out and offered a 4GB flat model (4GB should be enough for anyone), all the OS designers went that way.

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  53. Re:Leopard? by Upaut · · Score: 1

    So naming an operating system in the same order as german tanks, is "gay"? And please explain how an operating system having a cheerful name is bad thing?

    10.0 Cheetah - Gepard(German for Cheetah)
    10.1 Puma -Puma
    10.2 Jaguar -Jaguar
    10.3 Panther -Panther
    10.4 Tiger -Tiger
    10.5 Leopard -Leopard

    It might just me being a history nerd, but I think naming an operating system after some of the finest tanks in the world is kinda bad-ass...

    --
    3 degrees of separation from Vladimir Putin
  54. Re:Leopard? by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

    So that more women buy Macs. Remember, queers get all the chicks.

    --
    USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
  55. Re:Leopard? by toadlife · · Score: 1

    It's nice that Apple will be stepping out of the Nazi-era with Leopard.

    (yeah, yeah...Godwin...I lose.)

    --
    I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
  56. Re: "Tiger FW crash" MOD PARENT DOWN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    claim is BS - SSIA

  57. OK, let's run them down by RzUpAnmsCwrds · · Score: 0

    Tagging Downloaded Applications

    Feature in Windows since Windows XP SP2.

    Signed Applications

    Feature in Windows since IE4 / Windows 98, called Authenticode. Nearly everything in a base Windows XP or Vista is signed, as are many third-party applications. Authenticode is based on X.509 certificates - I'm not sure what Apple's tech is based on. Vista checks signatures before elevating, and the signed UAC dialog looks nothing like the unsigned UAC dialog.

    Application-Based Firewall

    Feature in Windows since Windows XP SP2.

    Stronger Encryption for Disk Images

    BitLocker in Vista uses AES-256. EFS can be configured to use AES-256 in Vista.

    Enhanced VPN Client Compatibility

    Don't really know on this one.

    Sharing and Collaboration Configuration

    ACLs have been in Windows since Windows NT. Sharing can be configured through the properties dialog box of any folder.

    Sandboxing

    Protected mode is implemented in Vista. The primary use is Internet Explorer.

    Multiple User Certificates

    The central certificate store in Windows has supported multiple user certificates since at least Windows 2000.

    Enhanced Smart Card Capabilities

    Unknown, but Windows has had smartcard support since Windows 2000.

    Library Randomization

    Vista introduced this to Windows. BSD and Linux distros had it before then.

    Windows SMB Packet Signing

    Obviously supported by Windows Vista.

    So, it looks like most of the new security features in Leopard are direct rip-offs of Vista/BSD/Linux features. Time Machine is a direct ripoff of Previous Versions in Vista, albeit with over-the-top graphical effects. Spaces are a ripoff of a feature that has been in UNIX for decades. Every modern Linux desktop has terminal tabs.

    Apple, stop it with your fucking bullshit. It's fine to copy features from other software. It's not fine to copy them, claim that you're being innovative, and then accuse your competition of copying you. It's dishonest, it's sleazy, and it's cheap. Your software can stand on its own.

    1. Re:OK, let's run them down by KaptajnKold · · Score: 1

      Apple, stop it with your fucking bullshit.

      It's called marketing, and I think you'll find that every company does it. The way you're reacting, I advise you not to get a television. A single commercial block might give you a heart attack.

  58. Enterprise is where it's at by Space+cowboy · · Score: 1

    No, I think they are after the enterprise market, or at least they're moving towards that target. iCal has been able to share calendars (with the 'Subscribe...' menu item) in the same way as Vista for ages now. "iCal server" is the grown-up solution.

    Simon

    --
    Physicists get Hadrons!
  59. Re:Leopard? by Anarchitect_in_oz · · Score: 1

    As a gay man i'd just like to say i find nothing remotely 'gay' about that name.

    --
    "Call us when the New age is old enough to drink" Beck