Genetically Engineered Mouse is Not Scared of Cats

Gary writes "A team from the University of Tokyo has genetically engineered a mouse that does not fear cats. By tweaking genes to disable certain functions of the olfactory bulb (the area of the brain that receives information about smells directly from olfactory receptors in the nose) the researchers were able to create a 'fearless' mouse that does not try to flee when it smells cats, foxes and other predators. 'The research suggests that the mechanism by which mammals determine whether or not to fear another animal they smell -- and whether or not to flee -- is not a higher-order cerebral function. Instead, that decision is made based on a lower-order function that is hardwired into the neural circuitry of the olfactory bulb.'"

Comments

Smell only?

[Anonymous Coward]

So he's fearless if he smells a predator. What if the mouse sees a cat running full speed at him?

Re:Smell only?

[Dunbal]

Something tells me these mice are an evolutionary dead end...

Re:Smell only?

[eln]

Easy, he just puts something slick like a banana peel on the floor and holds out a frying pan and waits for the cat to run face first into it.

Re:Smell only?

[Aladrin]

Or maybe they modified more than just the sense of smell, by mistake. I'm not trying to be all gloom and doom, but there's no way they fully understand what modifications they made. We still only know the very basics about DNA... Until they can -for sure- know all the effects modifying a gene will have, they can't say that their research means anything.

I happen to believe that they are correct in that mice fears predators at an instinct level... But I disagree that it's smell alone.

Re:Smell only?

[Kerstyun]

Now we can finally disproof Darwinism!

Re:Smell only?

[xPsi]

Something tells me these mice are an evolutionary dead end... I had the same response initially as well. However, the point of the research has nothing to do with mice or fear per se, rather, from TFA, the point is to:

better understand the structure of the brain's neural circuitry responsible for processing information about the outside world . Turning off and on various inputs (like smell) is a good way to proceed. Nevertheless, as a general principle, I think most mice would agree that turning off the fear of cats would be a bad thing. And, hey, let's face it, the cats would be pretty disappointed too since giving chase is 90% of the fun for them.

Re:Smell only?

[Fishead]

How about try this on rabbits, then turn loose a whole bunch in Australia. A few years later you may have a boom in Dingo population, but if we then breed Dingo's that are scared of Kangaroos...

Re:Smell only?

[p0tat03]

The mouse would likely still run. The point here is that it's advantageous for a lifeform to remain relatively simple by operation. If the mouse has no sense of smell, and sees a cat running at him, it will probably trigger the "ohnoes, something unknown coming at me!" reflex in the mouse, which is pretty universal regardless of the approaching object is a cat or a boot. This removes the necessity for complex recognition and other such cognitive functions.

Re:Smell only?

[LingNoi]

These mice might be interesting to use for a study into feline behaviour.

Re:Smell only?

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Either that or they haven't been very Intelligently Designed.

Re:Smell only?

[foobsr]

What if the mouse sees a cat running full speed at him?

Depending on how much the mouse invested in having its GM package, it might outrun the cat.

CC.

Re:Smell only?

[Azarael]

I'm not sure how general this result is, there's also research that indicates that some baby primates aren't afraid of snakes until they see how adult primates react to seeing one. Probably most mammals have slightly different mechanisms for doing this sort of thing.

Re:Smell only?

[AikonMGB]

I understand what you're trying to say, but its coming across as just plain naive. Scientific research is a practice of incremental improvements. If you think back to the early part of the century when scientists were trying to break the so-called "sound-barrier", do you think that every time a test failed they said "Oh well, that failed, guess it was a waste of time since it doesn't mean anything"? They took the little bits of information that they learned and improved upon it and tried again.

You would be hard pressed to find any scientific experiment that "has no meaning".

Aikon-

Re:Smell only?

[xENoLocO]

Or dingos that aren't afraid of humans...

Re:Smell only?

[Reziac]

I think this depends on having the "fear of snakes" gene, which some folks evidently have, and others don't. I've observed that some humans freak at the sight of certain critters -- snakes, spiders, worms, whatever, and it's just the way they're wired.

Frex, when my mom sees a snake, she literally screams and jumps onto the nearest high object, then stands there screaming and pointing at it *exactly* like wild monkeys do -- and it's clearly hardwired behaviour. She says she did it the very first time she ever saw a snake.

Similarly, no one has ever chased my neighbour around with a spider, but she has an unnatural and clearly hardwired fear of them -- she sees them as ~10 times their actual size, too. Doesn't matter if intellectually she knows a given spider is harmless, emotionally she sees it as Godzilla and it's coming to get her!!

OTOH, I've never had any such fears; in fact seeing/hearing a rattlesnake triggers a definite predator response in me (my instant and natural response is to find and kill it).

Re:Smell only?

[Nigel Stepp]

Scientific research is a practice of incremental improvements. That's *so* pre- and early 20th century. :)

In all seriousness, this (convergence to truth) is no longer a commonly held belief. (See Popper, Kuhn)

Re:Smell only?

[Aladrin]

Read deeper. Don't just skim a few words from the paragraph.

Your "has no meaning" quote came out of your ass, apparently. I said they can't -say- it has meaning, not that it had none. They are claiming results when they can't say for sure what all they affected.

There is probably some bad journalism here, because any scientist worth a shit knows better than to claim things as broadly-scoped as this without a shitload of research and experimentation.

"A team of University of Tokyo researchers led by professors Hitoshi Sakano and Ko Kobayakawa have announced they have genetically engineered a mouse that does not fear cats, simply by controlling its sense of smell."

This should probably read:

A team of University of Tokyo researchers led by professors Hitoshi Sakano and Ko Kobayakawa have announced they have genetically engineered a mouse that does not fear cats while attempting to modify its sense of smell.

That's factual and there's nothing to dispute. It's not as sensational that way, though, so...

That's journalism for ya.

Re:Smell only?

[Azarael]

If it's hardwired, I wonder if you could inhibit the response somehow through TMS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulation/. That way when you need to dust the attic, just put on the 'helmet' so you're temporarily not afraid of spiders.

Re:Smell only?

[floWing]

Not that far off, given that mice have a very limited vision (lab mice can be assumed to be practically blind!) and mostly rely on their nose only to navigate the world. A bit like the drug experience when high junkies crash into cars, because they don't "see" them, I would say. Anyway, I did not read the paper (is it out?) to see which strain they used (probably on a blind background, hehe), but from what I read here, this "conclusion" seems vague, at best.

Re:Smell only?

[j-pimp]

Or dingos that aren't afraid of humans...

Half the fun of interacting with a dingo is getting accepted as a pack member. Even if your the type of person that can get a typical domesticated dog to listen to you in a few hours, a dingo will provide a nice challenge to you.

Re:Smell only?

[Reziac]

Hmm. Sounds like exactly what my neighbour needs. :)

Re:Smell only?

[letxa2000]

The research suggests that the mechanism by which mammals determine whether or not to fear another animal they smell -- and whether or not to flee -- is not a higher-order cerebral function. Instead, that decision is made based on a lower-order function that is hardwired into the neural circuitry of the olfactory bulb.

Seriously, is there not an evolutionary/ID angle to this?

It seems to me that if the smell-based fear is hardwired into mice based on genes, it seems that means that the animal is pre-wired to fear only certain pre-programmed smells. The mouse doesn't know why it fears the cat, it just detects a smell that it is pre-programmed to detect and the reaction is to flee. Presumably, other animals that don't emit a smell that the mouse is pre-programmed to fear won't provoke immediate fear in the mouse. If that animal is a potential predator of the mouse, the mouse is screwed.

It seems the only way evolution could explain this is by saying that the vast-majority of mice without this gene were promptly eliminated by cats and taken out of the gene pool. Likewise for the smell of other predators. But that would imply that there was initially an enumerated list of odors that a mouse can detect and either flee or not flee and those that lacked those genes and did not provoke fear of predators would disappear from the gene pool.

But how did that enumerated list get into the mouse's genes to start with???

Re:Smell only?

[SatanicPuppy]

It's not really about fun; most predators are hardwired to chase things that run, because that's a good indication of edibility...If it doesn't run, there may be something going on there, something that it may not be in your best interest to find out about the hard way.

If it does run, however, you can make a high percentage guess that it thinks that's its best defense in the situation, so you're pretty safe in chasing it...It's not going to fail at running, then turn around and bite your head off.

Re:Smell only?

[Workaphobia]

That's a safety feature. Just as supergerms have self-destruct protein sequences, so they can't live outside a laboratory, so too are scientists protecting us from genetically engineered supermice.

Re:Smell only?

[Kingrames]

He would learn to fear cats again. I think. off to test we go.

Re:Smell only?

[Assassin bug]

True. Insert a homologous gene into a cat and you could design an orthogonal experiment with scaredeemice and scaredeecats and fearlessmice and fearlesscats. This could have a lot of potential for behavioral study.

Re:Smell only?

[proxy318]

this: http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/07/05/doomed/

Re:Smell only?

[sepluv]

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if a cat does chase mice because it finds it fun (especially as they often don't seem to eat their prey). It finding it fun (even though not hungry) would of course be evolved though to make certain that it does eat and to keep its hunting skills up, etc. Or, actually, just because that is the best way to ensure it catches prey (especially when it is first left to fender for itself), as opposed to relying on it being conditioned into associating chasing rodents with getting a meal.

Re:Smell only?

[kurzweilfreak]

especially when it is first left to fender for itself

The mental image of a cat attempting to beat the Dragonforce song on Guitar Hero III just has me in stitches thanks to that little slip.

Re:Smell only?

[TheLostSamurai]

Not to mention it would make a great cartoon!

Re:Smell only?

[MisterSquid]

I take it you've never observed or owned a cat. They often play with animals just to kill them. One time, I saw a single cat play "pickle" with a squirrel, running in front of it just to watch it run the other direction and then run in front of it again. The pleasure of killing for many cats often has little to do with whether the cat is interested in eating the animal. Sometimes, sure, but cats also like to chase things just for the pleasure of chasing.

Re:Smell only?

[Assassin bug]

Yeah. Name the genes TomI and JerryI.

Re:Smell only?

[Anonymous Coward]

I would venture to guess that the mouse would still have the instinct to run...

Re:Smell only?

[wattrlz]

Y'know, that coulda been funny if you left out the smell part.

Re:Smell only?

[medge_42]

We had guinea pigs when I was a kid and five cats. The guinea pigs were given a large roaming area that was open to the world and grew very used to having cats in that area. Neither species bothered the other. When the new neighbors moved in next door with their cat, I watch with interest as it stalked the largest of our guinea pigs. It pounced and the guinea pig didn't run, it simply looked up as if to say "What?". The cat seemed to say "Your right, I have no idea what is meant to happen now.", and walked off.

This shows that guinea pigs are not hardwired to fear cats and that cats do need their prey to run.

Maybe these mice aren't such an evolutionary dead end after all.

Re:Smell only?

[SatanicPuppy]

We see that more because, in our world, cats are usually well fed. Catch a squirrel, don't catch a squirrel, who cares?

I usually think of it as a sort of "hunting practice"...My most domestic cats are usually pretty lax...They'll even let things get away, once they're bored...But that initial bit of, "Ha! Gotcha! Ooooh, you wanna get away, well okay... Ha! Gotcha!" is all about "I could kill you if I wanted to...Damn I'm good."

My best hunting cat...I never saw him play with anything. It was dead, or it was beneath his notice. He was kind of a "big game" cat though; rabbits, groundhogs, crows...If he ever killed mice, he didn't bother leaving a "trophy" as it were.

Re:Smell only?

[SatanicPuppy]

Well, dogs seem to take delight in chasing cars, as an example, so I wouldn't be surprised if you're right. The run response is something I've noticed myself, time and time again. Bears, dogs, cats...If you stand still, they stop chasing.

I've never had the misfortune of being menaced by a bear in an aggressive situation, and they're not very aggressive in general, so a little loud noise and some raised arms will usually send them lumbering off, while they may chase you a bit if you run.

Dogs...I used to run competitively, and I have more "being chased by dogs" experience than a half dozen normal people. Generally, if you stop, the dog will stop. Doesn't hold for a really aggressive dog who is after you because he specifically wants to kill YOU, but it works fine for any kind of dog that's just excited by the whole idea of running prey.

Cats...Well, I've never been chased by a big cat. But I've led little cats around with all manner of shiny cat distractions. They are excited by movement and bored by stillness.

Re:Smell only?

[mikael]

Reminds of the time my parents bought a four bottle set of wine for the Christmas season; left them on the driveway while they unlocked the door to the house and then brought them in. Within seconds our cats were prowling around the bag, followed it around wherever we moved it to, and eventually sat right down beside it, watching intently and waiting...

We were puzzled about this odd behavior, surely cat's don't like wine that much, do they? So I cleared the bag out, bottle by bottle, then removed the cardboard packing. Right inside the packing was a little mouse which jumped around a bit. We managed to "free" it in an adjacent field, but it's amazing how sensitive cats are.

I'm not too sure if it was the smell or the sound of scratching that attracted our cats. If I make scratching noise underneath the table they are sitting on, they'll try and move round so they can what is underneath the table.

Re:Smell only?

[Plutonite]

It's more complicated than that, obviously, otherwise the edible species would have evolved the dont-run phenomena in response.

Re:Smell only?

[Nefarious Wheel]

Generally, if you stop, the dog will stop

They may continue to bark and exhibit aggressive behaviour from a short distance though.

Once a couple of the neighbor from across the street's rather nasty and ill-treated doberman pinschers jumped their fence and ran to attack me as I picked up my newspaper off the lawn one morning. I didn't just stop, I started pointing and loudly berating them as if I were their owner, shouting at them to "get back in that yard". They backed off. I always thought that odd -- how I came up with the idea without thinking (hardwired response? It happened awfully fast) and how effective it was in that situation. I wonder (but not too much, I don't keep dogs) if this is generally applicable as a useful response to being chased.

Re:Smell only?

[fastest fascist]

Only if they live in an environment with plenty of cats. They, however, live in a science lab. Maybe in that environment odd behaviour is a positive trait with regard to reproductive selection?

Re:Smell only?

[Anonymous Coward]

Most likely. Though Mythbusters showed it didn't work on a trained guard dog, playing alpha is probably the best thing you can do in such a situation. Often works on humans too ;-)

Re:Smell only?

[yndrd1984]

I'm not trying to be all gloom and doom, but there's no way they fully understand what modifications they made.

Right.

Until they can -for sure- know all the effects modifying a gene will have, they can't say that their research means anything.

Well, they do have some good evidence to back up their claim, and that's all science accepts - degrees of acceptance based on evidence. Besides, Newton's concept of gravity was wrong, but I wouldn't say his work was meaningless.

I happen to believe that they are correct in that mice fears predators at an instinct level... But I disagree that it's smell alone.

I don't think the mice lost all fear of cats, just one specific, instinctive fear based solely on smell. Mice that haven't had any experience with cats at all will scramble away from areas that smell like cat, mice with the modification treat it just like any other new smell. They still fear big things that chase them, things that have hurt them before, etc.

I should note that nature has already done this using a pathogen. The parasite causes the mice to lose their fear of a cat's smell, and increases the parasite's chance of getting into a cat's gut to complete its life cycle.

Re:Smell only?

[beav007]

they'll try and move round so they can what is underneath the table.

I think you a word there...

Re:Smell only?

[Anonymous Coward]

Cats are... (I have one, and he is a...) robotic killer. Mine caught a rat in the yard, brought it to the back door, then defecated on it, to Prove to his owner that he was the one that dispatched this rat. "It doesn't matter if a cat is black or white. If it kills mice, it is a good cat."
So, now they can genetically engineer fearless creatures, that cannot, even if their life depended on it, "fear" predators. Where does this fit in to the human situation? Fear, even though having it is a painful existence, does serve a purpose, to keep the person from being killed for the time being at least.
Young people seem to have no fear, that's so they can accomplish "things" without undue interference from "fear".
However, having said that, young people can suddenly experience fear, and run for their lives. But, generally, they are "engineered" to ignore the obvious, and suppress fear, so they are free to create, invent, design, and otherwise do what humans are so good at, other than just "war".
What happens when humans get old? Do the hormones that gave them fearlessness when they were young weaken, and perhaps all but vanish in the human body? Sure they do. Then what you have is old people who are more able to suffer "fear", for a lack of the hormones they once had when young.
If the circumstances of their life warrant it, then fear rules.
"Old age is not for sissies", all too true for those who have arrived.
There is such a difference between the two that they might as well be from distant planets. Young people cannot imagine what would frighten old people, or very young ones also. Children can be very afraid, not grown up yet.
"Hell is for children" it has been said.
Some of us who watch the History Channel have seen the film clip of the Nazi soldier beating a very old woman, who is to be sent to a concentration camp. When you are old yourself, you will see this clip through different eyes, even though it is horrible to anyone of any age.
The worse one is the mother who is being dragged off by a Nazi soldier, separated from a young child, who, struggling to run after it's mother, falls. Don't look at that one when you are old.

Re:Smell only?

[Whiteox]

Itchy and Scratchy would be more appropriate.

Re:Smell only?

[Zarf]

most predators are hardwired to chase things that run, because that's a good indication of edibility...If it doesn't run, there may be something going on there, something that it may not be in your best interest to find out about the hard way.

And, that's why in survival training the tell you not to run from a bear. If the bear sees you run you trigger the predator response. So instead you talk to the bear and back away the way you came. Bears don't normally eat things that talk and move backwards so you probably won't get mistaken for food. The result is a bear that is some what confused as to how it should react... so you just might get away.

So I wonder if our brave mousy friends get treated with equal confusion by cats.

Re:Smell only?

[Whiteox]

Dingos afraid of rabbits would be a sight to see!
Come to think about it, if King Arthur's Knights of the Round Table had the 'fear gene' tuned for rabbits, there would of been an alternate ending for the movie.

Re:Smell only?

[Anonymous Coward]

"It's not really about fun; most predators are hardwired to chase things that run, "

Actually, where did you pull this out of you ass? I didn't see you reference any studies. I have cat's and they will kill things they don't eat. For certain their is bio-behavioural inheritance, but to say they receive no biochemical psychological reward is a little far out there.

Re:Smell only?

[Anomolous Cowturd]

I'd be more interested in a mice vs cat deathmatch. Starve a bunch of mice, starve a cat, then put them in an arena. Find out how many mice it takes to kill a cat in mortal combat.

Re:Smell only?

[Storlek]

Bears don't normally eat things that talk and move backwards

I find that comment absolutely hilarious. Signature'd.

Re:Smell only?

[jc42]

Similar incidents have been reported by people with hamsters and cats. The cat sees a small, furry thing, goes into stalk-and-pounce mode ... and the hamster responds by wanting to play with the cat. The cat is puzzled, and eventually treats the hamster like a kitten rather than a meal. Of course, it doesn't always work, and some hamsters do get eaten, but most of them seem to survive and live with the cat.

Re:Smell only?

[TigerNut]

Taking control (or, at least trying to) has been a pretty successful approach for me. I've been out running several times where a dog would run at me, barking, presumably with the intent to at least scare me off. I'd slow down, but keep walking towards them (on the road, not on their turf) while yelling and pointing at them. When they start to back off, I'd start running towards them while still yelling at them, which typically causes the dog to turn tail and run. At least until it's time for me to get on with my run... gotta keep checking to see they don't come back and try to chase me down.

My main intent is to teach the dog to not mess with runners, or at least to not mess with me. If they are aggressive and are also stupid enough to let me get within kicking distance, then they're going to get a boot into any part of them that I can reach.

Oh really?

[AltGrendel]

Bet the test mouse didn't last too long.

I see a new line of cat toys showing up at the pet shop this Holiday Season.

Re:Oh really?

[Von Helmet]

Unless the cat's "eat mouse reflex" doesn't go off because the mouse isn't running about scared...

Re:Oh really?

[ceoyoyo]

Nah, most cats I know look confused and lose interest when the mouse stops trying to run away. They're really quite sadistic.

Re:Oh really?

[B3ryllium]

My cat doesn't have an eat mouse reflex - it's evolved into a "bat the mouse around for two hours until it dies of a heart attack, and then leave it somewhere that Food Bringing Slave can step on it!" reflex ...

Re:Oh really?

[Nazlfrag]

A feral cat wouldn't have those issues, it would have slaughtered that mouse the second it didn't run fast enough. Yours is just a pussy.

Re:Oh really?

[petermgreen]

I bet a really hungry cat would move on to the eating stage at that point. A pet cat probablly just preffers the food it's owners gives it to the food it can catch itself.

Re:Oh really?

[Larry Lightbulb]

Cats are programmed to attack short jerky motions, such as mice running, and anything which freezes has a good chance of being ignored.

Re:Oh really?

[ceoyoyo]

Even a moderately hungry cat usually moves on to the eating stage. But the fun (thus, cat toy) is in the pre-eating stage. Do you consider going to the supermarket a fun game? Many people do regard hunting and fishing as fun.

Re:Oh really?

[Reziac]

Which is why very young kittens have a "freeze when grabbed" instinct -- it prevents them from being damaged/killed by their own dams.

Re:Oh really?

[cthulu_mt]

Cats are programmed to attack short jerky motions, such as mice running, and anything which freezes has a good chance of being ignored. So cats are alot like Velociraptors...no wonder I don't trust them.

Re:Oh really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, cat food is preferable to mice.

The behaviors, in the order they are "extinguished" are:

  eating the mouse.

  killing the mouse.

  'playing' with the mouse.

  catching the mouse.

  chasing the mouse.

Re:Oh really?

[sm62704]

That's pretty much standard procedure for most cats I've seen, and what's more, mousing isn't instinctive but is taught by the momma cat (as is using a litter box).

When we moved to Springfield's ghetto in utter poverty a couple of decades ago, the hovel we moved into was infested by mice. Every morning when I got up there would be a dead mouse laid next to the chair I sat in to drink my coffee, and what's more was laid there exectly the same way every day. This went on until the cat ran out of mice.

What's wierd is a female cat I have now. When we adopted this cat as a kitten, my insane then-wife had ammassed about 7 cats, all but two male. Now, male cats wil back up against anything at all, and mark it as its territory.

The then-kitten female mimics this behavior, raising its tail and shaking its ass like the males do. Fortunately all it mimics is the movement; there's no usine, unlike the males (boy did that house STINK).

They say "monkey see, monkey do" but I suspect it's a mammal trait rather than a monkey trait.

Re:Oh really?

[sm62704]

I think that although your post is humorous, it's also incorrect. There was a nature show on TV with a young antelope and two lions. The antelope had no fear of the lions, and the lions dodn't know how to act, although they did wind up eating it in the end.

Re:Oh really?

[mux2000]

Actually, the 'cats eat mice' meme is a myth (much like the 'dogs hate cats' meme). In fact most cat's never eat mice. They are extremely irritated though by the high-pitched squeaking (most of which is inaudible to human ears, but must be really annoying to cats). So cats usally beat mice senseless and then leave them like a boring toy.

Re:Oh really?

[evilviper]

Cats are programmed to attack short jerky motions, such as mice running, and anything which freezes has a good chance of being ignored.

When my cat sees a pidgin, holding perfectly still, she still goes crazy trying to get at it.

Many prey animals, particularly rabbits, have the instinct to hold perfectly still when frightened, yet they are very often killed by cats.

Cats will stalk and attack small prey, no matter how it acts. Only then might strange behavior cause a cat to act differently, but if the cat is hungry, it's still a dead animal, no matter how it acts.

Re:Oh really?

[eharvill]

That's pretty much standard procedure for most cats I've seen, and what's more, mousing isn't instinctive but is taught by the momma cat (as is using a litter box). I would disagree with the litter box statement. My wife just rescued a stray kitten (basically an alley cat) about 2 weeks ago and the kitten figured out how to use the litter box in a few days, obviously without any help from her dead mother. I think it is instinctive for a cat to cover up its waste. Shredded newspaper, kitty litter, dirty laundry basket, etc makes a good place to cover it up. In our case the litter box eventually made the most sense to the kitten as the first couple days she peed under the lip of the kitchen cabinet and pooped in a corner in the living room. I guess you could make the argument that it wouldn't know how to use the litter box, but they inherently know how to "clean up" and the litter box made the most sense in the house for her to use after she had explored the area and realized what the litter box could/should be used for.

Re:Oh really?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's nothing - my ~20 pound cat can't walk strait, but, stil managed to kill a mouse one day while sleeping on the couch... We guessed, the mouse we found dead saw the fat bastard and laughed herself to death. Now THATS a killer cat, kills-while-sleeping...

Re:Oh really?

[Fission86]

My cat has the "bat the mouse around for two hours until it dies of a heart attack" reflex too but instead of leaving it somewhere it has the "bring it to the food bringer while he's asleep" reflex... not a pleasant thing to way to wake up to

Re:Oh really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your cat think he's feeding you.

Really. Look it up. He leaves his dead prey in a place you'll find, just like they do to kittens (often the door, since humans show up to operate the door). It's a sign of affection. Be sure to never punish your cat for doing this.

Re:Oh really?

[mqduck]

If you succeed in getting someone to mod you insightful, I'll buy you a coke.

Re:Oh really?

[mux2000]

It seems the prerequisite for being modded insightful/interesting or even funny is already having been modded as such. Sucks being new here.

Re:Oh really?

[mqduck]

You could try not making stuff up? ;)
Granted, it'd be hilarious if you get +5

Re:Oh really?

[mux2000]

You calling me a liar?
>:(

Re:Oh really?

[mqduck]

Nope, just a clever inventor of truth.

Re:Oh really?

[ichigo 2.0]

Probably restoration spec.

Re:Oh really?

[sm62704]

They're certainly not stupid animals, and the burying is instinctive. But had the momma cat been a house cat, there would have been no poop on the floor at all.

Re:Oh really?

[fahrbot-bot]

The antelope had no fear of the lions, and the lions dodn't know how to act, although they did wind up eating it in the end.

I think this story starts with the antelope pulling a thorn from the lion's paw...

Re:Oh really?

[sm62704]

I think this story starts with the antelope pulling a thorn from the lion's paw...

Well, they didn't show that part but it ended with the antelope going into the lion's maw.

Fearless Mice..

[kabocox]

I can't find myself fearing fearless mice. Why? Because there was most likely a very good reason for the mice that they are afraid of cats and large things that can eat them... I just can't seem to worry about these things getting loose and breeding in the wild.

It's sort of like the fear of spiders, snakes, bears, and large cats. There are very valid reasons for humans to be naturally afraid of things that can kill/harm and maybe eat us.

Re:Fearless Mice..

[GrievousMistake]

Well I bet you'll change your mind once you stand face to face with the new race of fearless, regenerating mice that can run six kilometres without rest and glow in the dark. But by then it will be far too late to do anything but welcome our new cheese-eating overlords.
Their only weakness is a slightly increased risk of cancer when exposed to various substances. Oh, if only we had invested equal resources in building better cats!

Re:Fearless Mice..

[Red Flayer]

I can't find myself fearing fearless mice. Why? Because there was most likely a very good reason for the mice that they are afraid of cats and large things that can eat them... I just can't seem to worry about these things getting loose and breeding in the wild.

Well, first off, how do you know they won't enable a large population of predators (say, wolves, or owls) to thrive until the fearless mice all get eaten; then you have a surplus of hungry owls and a scarcity of prey... sure hope you don't have mouse-colored hair and venture outside at night, Mr. "I ain't afraid of no mice".

Second, I think we can all recall the abundance of articles about mice engineered to be super-strong, super-endurant, super-visioned, and super-aggressive. Honestly, the only reason I've been unafraid until now is that I know^H^H^HH^knew that mice were scared of cats, so I could just put my furry catsuit on and I'd never get attacked.

Now we learn that they can engineer fearless mice -- think of the recombinant possibilities!1! Fearless AND superstrong?

I believe elephants foresaw the coming of the fearless destroyer mice legions (or simply remember the last time it happened, since they never forget) -- we should take a cue from them and be afraid of mice. Be very afraid.

Re:Fearless Mice..

[ElleyKitten]

I fear fearless mice. I somehow got cats without the "kill small animals instinct" so I know all the fearless mice are going to move to my house.

Re:Fearless Mice..

[malf-uk]

and we won't be able to hide because of the giant ear on their backs

Re:Fearless Mice..

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I bet you'll change your mind once you stand face to face with the new race of fearless, regenerating mice that can run six kilometres without rest and glow in the dark.

But they all look so silly with all that make-up on.

Re:Fearless Mice..

[jimicus]

Because there was most likely a very good reason for the mice that they are afraid of cats and large things that can eat them..

I'd imagine the reason is that they might get eaten.

Re:Fearless Mice..

[sm62704]

But by then it will be far too late to do anything but welcome our new cheese-eating overlords.

Let me get this straight - these are French mice? And they're fearless???? *head explodes*

Re:Fearless Mice..

[Anonymous Coward]

bravo.

Re:Fearless Mice..

[iminplaya]

Oh, if only we had invested equal resources in building better cats!

A little patience, please. I'm working on it. - Erwin

Re:Fearless Mice..

[Chris Burke]

Oh, if only we had invested equal resources in building better cats!

God no! That's just what the cats want you to think! Trust me, they'd be much worse overlords than the mice.

Re:Fearless Mice..

[evilviper]

It's sort of like the fear of spiders, snakes, bears, and large cats. There are very valid reasons for humans to be naturally afraid of things that can kill/harm and maybe eat us.

Only a very tiny fraction of snakes and spiders have the ability to seriously harm a human, yet fear of them isn't limited to the traits that would help to identify a venomous creature.

Oddly enough, we have no similar fear of coming into contact with other humans, getting bitten by mosquitoes, eating food off the floor, etc., etc. Yet those things have killed infinitely more people than snakes and spiders ever have.

The idea that we have evolved to fear spiders and snakes is merely a common assumption, that most certainly has no proof behind it. It is also pretty easy to come up with innumerable alternate theories. It could well be that human fear of snakes and spiders is borne out of our familiarity with 4-legged creatures, and merely have a fear of everything else. The fact that a few snakes and spiders can potentially kill humans could well be entirely coincidental. As evidence: Many people have a similar fear of many other non-venomous insects, which we very well know aren't at all dangerous to humans.

Bears and big cats are a no-brainer. It's a predator (eyes in front), and it's larger than you. It has claws and big pointy teeth.

I don't recall hearing many cases of people that are terrified by eg. bear cubs, even though the small animals are FAR larger than spiders or most snakes, and look nearly identical to full-grown bears. So instinctive caution about large predators is really, really not an in-born fear, on the same order as snakes and spiders.

Re:Fearless Mice..

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, we have already cured cancer in mice - and AIDS, and maleria, and every single other human disease.

Re:Fearless Mice..

[Anonymous Coward]

the phrase "Cheese eating overlords" made me think instantly of H2G2...
anyone else?

Seems flawed...

[EmagGeek]

Whatever function is triggered is being disabled by the removal of the SMELL capacity, not the FLEE capacity. That part of the mouse's brain that is responsible for interpreting the smell of a predator is probably still working fine, but is just not being stimulated because they have disabled the SMELL part.

Re:Seems flawed...

[snl2587]

True, but the system was still disabled and I think that was the point of the experiment. I think what they were also trying to figure out is whether or not the mouse still fled when that particular sensor was broken, proving it wasn't sight/sound/touch/(taste?) triggered.

Re:Seems flawed...

[Kadin2048]

Well, I think that it's interconnected; there are certain smell receptors in a mouse that are hardwired to the "oh shit, run" response. They have disabled that in these mice, either by breaking the connection or disabling/removing the smell receptors more directly. The result is that the behavior is not present anymore.

That's really the interesting thing, here: they have found a genetic variation that produces a very definite, high-level behavioral change. That's pretty cool.

Although it's clear that many animals have a lot of behaviors that are 'instinctive' and must be carried genetically (which you can test by bringing an animal up in an environment that's devoid of other animals and monitoring it's behavior), it's not terribly clear exactly how they work and are transmitted. This might be one small step towards understanding a part of that.

Re:Seems flawed...

[timeOday]

My question is, can the mice still smell the cats? If the mice can still smell the cat, but the link from "cat smell" to "fear" is gone, yet the link from "cat appearance" to "fear" still persists, then I agree that is interesting.

What would also be interesting is if the genetically modified mice can learn to fear the smell of cats by repeatedly smelling them just before seeing them, or something.

Re:Seems flawed...

[UbuntuDupe]

What would also be interesting is if the genetically modified mice can learn to fear the smell of cats by repeatedly smelling them just before seeing them, or something.

Or, conversely, if it's possible to train mice not to get fear when they smell a cat.

Or, if it's possible to retrain the emotions humans get from scents that they probably don't recognize are there.

Not New

[moehoward]

Not news. They already engineering ones that do not fear my wife. It was only a matter of time.

Another team took the opposite approach and genetically engineered many people I know to have an irrational fear of global warming.

I'm glad their tackling this fear things from both ends.

Re:Not New

[I7D]

I'm glad their tackling this fear things from both ends.
Does your wife approve of this?

Re:Not New

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps you could genetically engineer your children to have the ability
to differentiate among their, there and they're.

Re:Not New

[sm62704]

Not news. They already engineering ones that do not fear my wife.

I think when they said they bred mice that weren't afraid of pussy they weren't talking about your wife.

Another team took the opposite approach and genetically engineered many people I know to have an irrational fear of global warming

You mean they engineered people to irrationally NOT fear something that could make the planet uninhabitable?

I'm glad their tackling this fear things from both ends.

That's just SO gay I won't even comment...

Finally, a breakthrough for slashdot users...

[scoser]

Once we have this treatment available for humans, Slashdotters will no longer be afraid of women!

Re:Finally, a breakthrough for slashdot users...

[BrotherBeal]

At least ones with BO. Maybe we better leave those genes in.

Re:Finally, a breakthrough for slashdot users...

[Anonymous Coward]

It won't make any difference.

As if a slashdotter could get within smelling distance of a woman in the first place...

Re:Finally, a breakthrough for slashdot users...

[Shanrak]

On the contrary, they need to make the women no longer fear a Slashdotter's smell from lack of good hygiene.

Re:Finally, a breakthrough for slashdot users...

[sm62704]

Actually you don't need genetic engineering to overcome irrational fears. Start with A nerd's Guide to overcoming fear of pussy, which not ironically caused me to have my nerd license suspended for a while. I got it back after an attractive woman moved in with me and I still can't get laid!

Re:Finally, a breakthrough for slashdot users...

[Anonymous Coward]

Now if only they could invent women who aren't afraid of Slashdotters...

Re:Finally, a breakthrough for slashdot users...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually it is the opposite way 'round: Women smell Slashdotters and are afraid of them, thus avoiding them at any price. Exactly like healthy mices do with predators. Nothing new here.

Re:Finally, a breakthrough for slashdot users...

[DeCappa]

Well, the smell of women anyway.

Re:Finally, a breakthrough for slashdot users...

[Translation Error]

I think it's the reverse of this that's needed...

Re:Finally, a breakthrough for slashdot users...

[master_p]

Are you saying that women are predators to men, like a cat is to a mouse?

Congratulations University of Tokyo researchers!!!

[kpainter]

You have just created a retarded mouse!! I can do the same thing with a tiny hammer.

In other news...

[red_dragon]

In other news, Doraemon is still scared of mice.

I hope the scientists don't try for a patent..

[idontgno]

There's ample prior art.

Not surprising.

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

The company that made mouse an integral part of personal computer also makes all the OSes named like panther, tiger and leopard. So I am not surprised the mouse does not fear the cat. Aren't mice intelligently designed by Steve Jobs?

Re:Not surprising.

[ElephanTS]

Aren't mice intelligently designed by Steve Jobs?

No, it's the other way around ;-0

Re:Not surprising.

[sm62704]

Aren't mice intelligently designed by Steve Jobs?

Sorry, but I've never been a fan of non-ergonomic mice with only one button. One more argument against intelligent design.

Re:Not surprising.

[Stanistani]

I don't believe two-button mice evolved. They have no precursors in the fossil record. A scroll wheel? Couldn't have evolved. No intermediate form would have been useful.

And his name is Jerry.

[LWATCDR]

This mouse is often seen wielding a large mallet.

Re:And his name is Jerry.

[CeramicNinja]

Or his uncle with the guitar and broken string! "OOooooooohhhhh.... Froggy went a courtin' he did right...."

Now

[Anonymous Coward]

But was the cat freaked out by the fact that the mouse was fearless?

Re:Now

[Dunbal]

No, what really freaked the cat out was when the mouse tried to mate with it...

Re:Now

[sgt_doom]

The major question is....do fearless mice taste better than the ordinary mouse?

And speaking of prior art......

Re:Now

[davidwr]

No, what really freaked the cat out was when the mouse tried to mate with it...
--
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post. I think you mean 7 puppies, one mouse, 1 cat, and every other animal in the lab.

Re:I for one..

[Tackhead]

> I, for one, welcome our new mice overlords.

Silence, Pinky, or I shall have to hurt you.

it is ridiculous to extrapolate

[circletimessquare]

these results to man. for unlike the lower animals, we are motivated by higher mental orders of conscience and reason. of course, some wankers will come along and say that we are also help captive to these lower impulses. but i say-

mmm... who's cooking brownies?

Re:it is ridiculous to extrapolate

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact that we come up with something as fantastic as the internet and then mainly use it to watch porn says enough.

Re:it is ridiculous to extrapolate

[tbcpp]

The brownies are a lie!

Can we bio-engineer girls?

[blueZ3]

/. needs ones who can smell a geek and not run scared :-)

Re:Can we bio-engineer girls?

[Anonymous Coward]

/. needs ones who can't smell.

Re:Can we bio-engineer girls?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, they need to engineer one that *can't* smell a geek.

Re:Can we bio-engineer girls?

[UbuntuDupe]

Taking a shower converts nearby girls to that type.

(For it to work though, the shower must be performed *out* of their view.)

Re:Can we bio-engineer girls?

[calzplace]

Finally, I can modify my girlfriend's genes so she's not scared of my farts.

Re:Can we bio-engineer girls?

[Gigaflynn]

sigh... if only... oh well, you can't make her love you, you can only stalk her and hope for the best :P

Rodent diseases?

[phorm]

Wasn't there a disease that made a cat not only unafraid of cats, but attracted to their smell? I can't remember the name, but it infects the cat too, which incubates and spawns more of the disease in the stool etc, which then infects more rodents. It's also supposed to be one of the reasons that pregnant women should stay away from cats (or at least litter boxes) as it may have links to various child developmental issues.

Re:Rodent diseases?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wasn't there a disease that made a cat not only unafraid of cats, but attracted to their smell? I can't remember the name, but it infects the cat too, which incubates and spawns more of the disease in the stool etc, which then infects more rodents. It's also supposed to be one of the reasons that pregnant women should stay away from cats (or at least litter boxes) as it may have links to various child developmental issues.

Toxoplasmosis

Re:Rodent diseases?

[Anonymous Coward]

speaking of brownies... aren't cats supposed to be attracted to cats? Is this disease you speak of 'evolution'?

Re:Rodent diseases?

[rbanffy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis

"It has been found that the parasite has the ability to change the behavior of its host: infected rats and mice are less fearful of cats"

Re:Rodent diseases?

[mcmonkey]

I was wondering the same thing--it's a parasite that makes mice fearless of predators. The parasite spreads when the mouse is eaten. Wish I could remember more details off hand. I don't recall if the mechanism by which the parasite affects the mouse's behavior was determined.

Re:Rodent diseases?

[catmistake]

Obviosly, these scientists have fallen victom to the cats' mind-control warfare, aka toxoplasmosis.

Re:Rodent diseases?

[yet another coward]

I, too, thought of toxoplasmosis when I read this news. Here is an article from back in the spring about research into the specific effects on rats and mice. Parasite-host interactions are fascinating, especially ones that involve several life cycle stages and multiple hosts, such as this one.

An example for non-hunters who may not know

[BenEnglishAtHome]

The sense of smell is a big deal in the way predator and prey interact. For example, without a doubt the best way to get rid of the squirrels in your attic is to squirt just a small amount of fox urine fox urine up there. Just a few drops around your attic ladder opening will have those little farts on the run and gone within a day. Then plug up whatever holes originally allowed them to get up there and the problem is solved.

One caution: I've found that it only works once. If you don't seal up those holes, the squirrels come back and the second application doesn't work. Maybe you just need fresh urine. But no matter the reason, don't put off the soffet repairs (or whatever work you need to do) after scaring them away.

Re:An example for non-hunters who may not know

[operagost]

But what do you do about your stinky attic? Good place for a Stick-Up, eh?

Re:An example for non-hunters who may not know

[dkh2]

For the second application you need urine from a Targ.

Re:An example for non-hunters who may not know

[BenEnglishAtHome]

You may have meant it as a joke, but the question is a good one. If you're using so much urine that you can smell it in the house, you're using way too much. We're talking, literally, just a few drops. This stuff is effective when applied a tad more liberally to the shoes of hunters who are pursuing their hobby *outdoors*. In the enclosed space of an attic, the amount you need is so small, a human shouldn't be able to smell it from more than three feet away.

That being said, here's another caution. Don't open the bottle and stick it under your nose to see what it smells like. Curiosity in unavoidable, but hold the thing away from you and fan the fumes toward you to satisfy that curiosity. A full-blast snort of this stuff will make you retch.

Re:An example for non-hunters who may not know

[Luke Dawson]

the best way to get rid of the squirrels in your attic is to squirt just a small amount of fox urine fox urine up there.

Thanks! Now we all know what to get our in-laws for Christmas!

Re:An example for non-hunters who may not know

[Larry Lightbulb]

I know this is going really off-topic, but it follows on from getting rid of pests.

My in-laws had a problem with deer on their property and tried every solution that was suggested [apart from shooting them]. Urine and dung from every creature known to man was scattered about to no effect. Finally we found the one thing to work - it's a motion detector on a water hose, animal crosses the path and gets a jet of water. After a couple of times the wild-life problems were solved - to be replaced by local kid daring each other to run past it.

Re:An example for non-hunters who may not know

[ross.w]

Works for mice too. I found they stopped nesting in my compost bin after I started emptying the cat litter contents in there.

fear and mice

[techpawn]

I fear mice with only one button...

So it detects by smell...

[Rik Sweeney]

but what if one of these mice doesn't have a nose, how does it smell?

Re:So it detects by smell...

[SargentDU]

Probably worse than the others? Oh, was that rhetorical? :)

Re:So it detects by smell...

[Rik Sweeney]

how does it smell?

Terrible.

isn't this just reversing evolution?

[petes_PoV]

Consider a time long ago. Mice (and other small furry creatures)smelt every other animal around them. Some mice had "flee" triggers for pretty much anything - they ran away all the time and died out as they never stayed still long enough to eat/breed. Others had little or no "flee" triggers - they died out as they got eaten. The rest survived as they fled from predators and ignored non-threatening animals.

All these guys have done is wind back the clock and created one of the evolutionary branches that dies out long ago - for very good reasons.

Apart from being a curiosity, does this have any other use - except maybe to create animals that avoid the smell of tyres or tarmac and so don't become roadkill?

Re:isn't this just reversing evolution?

[syd02]

One of the nice things about evolution is that it's not intelligent design, so it isn't heretical to suggest that some natural impulses aren't very useful. Obviously mouse vs. cat conflict will select for mice which have a tendency to run away, so this is a poor example, but there may be many other examples (particularly in humans, who have a record of wtfpwning nature) where "reversing evolution" could be beneficial. If it's beneficial, we might even consider it a further evolution of our species.

Re:isn't this just reversing evolution?

[Reziac]

As I note above, it might be useful as a form of natural pest control -- release the fearless mice into the wild to breed with normal mice, and hope the next generation gets eaten by predators at a higher rate, thus at least temporarily reducing the population. Might be useful in the way that, say, releasing ladybugs every year can help keep the aphids down to a mere horde -- not a permanent solution, nor severe enough to unbalance the ecology, but effective enough to reduce their numbers from "pest" to "no longer a problem".

won't someone please think of the kitties

[resfilter]

in my experience with average house cats (i.e. cats that do not hunt for food, only for fun), if it won't run or struggle, it isn't very interesting prey

if i put one of these genetically engineered fearless mouse in a room with my cat, it would likely befriend it

although it seems like taking a natural defensive instinct away would be a negative thing, it might end up making mice that are suitable for co-habitation with cats

Re:won't someone please think of the kitties

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. It's the same with rabbits. Cats are already wary of them because of their size. From there on out most of the relationship is up to the rabbit. If they get scared and/or run then the cat decides they are prey and it's game over. If they just eyeball the cat and keep munching on their food, or better yet hop *toward* the cat, the cat reserves judgment and eventually gets familiar enough with it that they don't consider it a target anymore. Depends on the temperaments of your animals. Make sure your data set allows for cats that are not deterred by such trifles, as well as for the occasional cat-killing rabbit (they've got some serious weapons if they use them).

catty women

[CarpetShark]

Once we have this treatment available for humans, Slashdotters will no longer be afraid of women!

Unless, of course, they happen to come across some woman who's even more catty than a cat ;)

been there, done that.

[Deadplant]

*Yawn*

http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/16/162246

http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/18/0644240

Re:been there, done that.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well aren't you fucking special. Please enlighten us as to why you're on this site if you know it all already.

Re:been there, done that.

[Deadplant]

It is slashdot, not I, that 'knows it already'.
dumbass.

I remember a similar story...

[angrytuna]

I heard in biology class awhile back. It was about a parasite that had an incredibly convoluted life cycle, parts of which involved affecting the behavior of other living species so they would suicide, allowing the parasite to pass onto its ultimate host. I think this article on the Toxoplasma parasite might be relevant. I wonder if that's how they isolated the behavior?

From the article:

For decades, most scientists believed that people with healthy immune systems had no effects from Toxoplasma. But some studies in recent years have hinted that the parasite can exert surprising effects on behavior, at least in animals.

In 2000, British scientists demonstrated that rats infected with Toxoplasma lost their fear of cats. They proposed that this strategy increased the parasite's chances of getting into its final host.

Scientists at Stanford University recently followed up on these experiments, studying rats and mice. "They actually show a mild attraction to the cat odor," said Ajai Vyas, a Stanford neurobiologist. "It's not just the loss of an old behavior. A new behavior is being induced."

.

Can't sleep, clowns will eat me

[QuantumFlux]

Wow, I didn't realize that clowns had a distinct smell!

From www.kokonino-herrild.com

[Anonymous Coward]

Modified mouse escapes, seen heading towards Kaibito threatening to baste 'kat' with 'brick'. News at 11.

Featured mice

[Pipaman]

My cat will be glad to test this new 'featured' mice.

Not very encompasing

[EvilGoodGuy]

I realize mice are the first to be tested on subjects that involve danger for the animal. But I also realize that the functions of a mouse are very different from that of many mammals. All they've proved here is that it works for mice, not mamamls.

Re:Not very encompasing

[ceoyoyo]

Your brain is basically a mouse brain with an almost out of control cortical growth wrapped around it. The more primitive parts of the brain are quite similar between all vertebrates, and the olfactory system is one of the oldest bits. Until someone tries this in other animals, there's more reason to think these mechanisms might be common to most mammals than there is to think otherwise.

Re:Not very encompasing

[Reziac]

Meaning the principle might be useful toward treating the irrational and disabling phobias some people suffer from, in some cases triggered by odors.

Re:Not very encompasing

[ceoyoyo]

Possibly. There are likely a variety of ways phobias can arise. Many of them seem to be learned, or the result of some trauma, even if it was so early it's been forgotten.

There might be a portion of the population who have phobias that arise from genetic mutations. Still, genetic therapy would be a pretty radical intervention.

Re:Not very encompasing

[Reziac]

Likely so on both counts. But if someone has a disabling phobia (regardless of origin) that resists less-radical treatments, it might be worth a shot.

Of men and mice...

[Scrameustache]

I can't find myself fearing fearless mice. Why? Because there was most likely a very good reason for the mice that they are afraid of cats and large things that can eat them... I just can't seem to worry about these things getting loose and breeding in the wild.
It's sort of like the fear of spiders, snakes, bears, and large cats. There are very valid reasons for humans to be naturally afraid of things that can kill/harm and maybe eat us. It's not the mice I'm afraid of, it's the supersoldier program to which this could be applied.

Of course, I'm not entirely sure they took out the mice's fear as much as their ability to detect the smell... maybe that's in TFA, I'll go see.

Re:Of men and mice...

[bob.appleyard]

It's not the mice I'm afraid of, it's the supersoldier program to which this could be applied. I gave the target of that link a quick glance, and couldn't see anything on there that could be said to apply. Could you link to something specific? (and if not, why provide the link?)

Fear of the fearless

[NetSettler]

I can't find myself fearing fearless mice. Why? Because there was most likely a very good reason for the mice that they are afraid of cats and large things that can eat them...

Note that experiments like this are inherently more imprecise than the way they are summarized. The whole point is not "fears cats" or "doesn't fear cats", it's "has been observed trying things it wasn't previously doing that are assumed to be out of fear of cats" and "not having been observed ...etc." I recommend not reading the words describing research outcomes too literally. When you see a study that says "blah causes cancer in married people over 18", give some serious thought to whether it might not mean "blah may cause cancer generally, but our tests only covered this group and we're being conservative about our claims."

One way this matters is kind of like the reason that evolution proceeds primarily through behavioral pathways of things being attempted. Fear of a certain smell might keep mice from cats, but maybe cats are not their principal threat any more. Maybe this is a behavior from when there were lots of cats, and maybe most homeowners don't have freely breeding cats any more. If that's so, then this could allow a lot mice to come into areas they haven't been in before, as racoons have moved into cities.

A second and less obvious reason it may matter is that a lot of what holds animals at bay in the openness of human cities may be more a holdover of a natural fear that other animals, to include humans, would be "impolite". But humans are, comparatively, ruthlessly polite. Maybe most animals may steer clear out of us for primitive fear reasons, not for practical reasons. As they learn we are bad at wiping them out, and unwilling to use all available means, that could change. We don't need to hasten things by genetically improving their willingness to try harder.

Experimenting with the boldness aspects of behaviors may have unintended consequences. I don't think it's bad to understand this kind of thing, since it may also help to fix such problems as they come up (e.g., killer bees, and finding ways to get them to be less aggressive). But that doesn't mean one shouldn't be careful about the genes and make sure they don't leave the lab, perhaps even using strong rules similar to what we use for dangerous viruses.

Perhaps mice fear humans due to this same gene, and that's why they run away rather than running toward them and biting when they see them. Maybe this also affects that. In sufficient numbers, and there are no known ethics genes inhibiting the creation of such numbers in mice, a bunch of fearless mice could be very dangerous. In general, fearlessness is to be feared in sufficient numbers. Just look at war movies where large numbers of dedicated lives are thrown away to make a small push forward. If mice showed similar determination to take over a household, that would be formidable. There are some good horror movies on this, but we could easily turn such movies to reality through genetics.

And moreso if the recent "mighty mouse" gene got mixed in, too.

Re:Fear of the fearless

[Hal_Porter]

The thing I think is interesting is that "fear of cats" in mice is actually a misnomer. Fear implies some sort of high level decision. As the researchers pointed out this research shows the behaviour is completely hard wired. Which seems surprising in mammals - it's the sort of thing you'd expect in insects.

Re:Fear of the fearless

[Falladir]

"Fear" is a pretty general word. I think you could probably get most people to agree that "irrational, instinctive terror" is a kind of fear.

Re:I for one..

[Cheshire_Smile]

Oh come on. Seriously, we're all over this joke now.

As a daily Engadget reader, I come to Slashdot to get away from all the plainly idiotic comments on most tech oriented sites. If you want to post the same tired comments such as "but will it play Doom", "will it blend" and "I for one welcome our [insert anything here] overlords, please do it on Engadget or TechEblog.

Anyway enough of my bitching, proceed.

Logical...

[Pedrito]

I'll be honest, I'm not an expert in mouse physiology, but it doesn't seem like a stretch to suggest that evolution has provided certain animals with reactions to certain smells that might trigger an adrenaline rush. It wouldn't have to be a terribly complex biochemical pathway to get from smell to adrenaline, I would image. After all, for humans, the only stimulus needed to cause an adrenaline rush is pain. I would imagine this too happens at a pretty low-level, biologically. And yet we also learn behavior that triggers adrenaline rushes. I would imagine a heightened sense of smell would make smell-related triggers would be advantageous in evolution.

What about bogeymen?

[davidwr]

Is fear of "bogeymen" or out-groups based on something innate?

Sure, the Hitler-era Germans were taught to fear the Jews and for a long time American white women were taught to fear muscular black men, recent history has taught parents to fear men who get too friendly with their children, and now we are all taught to fear people who look and act like they might be terrorists or even look Middle-Eastern.

Is this propensity to fear based on something woven into our DNA?

Re:What about bogeymen?

[MagicBox]

Sure, the Hitler-era Germans were taught to fear the Jews and for a long time American white women were taught to fear muscular black men

I have never heard of what you mention above. It smells like bull shit to me.

With that said.... Mice that are not affraid of cats...what the fuck is that? No wonder the re-search to fiding a cure for deadly "uncureable" diseases is so fucking slow, those geeks are too busy using the re-search money to create mice that are not affraid of cats. http://www.newsweek.com/id/68221

Too true

[Moraelin]

Too true... I wish I could give you a +1 this time.

If you read about genes and the proteins they encode, it's nuts. Mother Nature is the biggest hacker there is. The same gene, for example, a mutation in MC1R responsible for red hair and not getting a tan, _also_ influences:

- freckles

- pain sensitivity (and at that, differently by kind of pain. More sensitivity to, for example, burns, but less to pain caused by electricity.)

- response to pain killers and anesthetics (again, quite differently by type: it makes people less responsive to some anesthetics, but more responsive to others)

- temper (or at least so the stereotype goes)

and who knows what else.

Some DNA pieces are even known to be both code segment _and_ data segment.

It's nuts, really.

Fear of social censure

[athloi]

Genetically engineer humans not to be afraid of the opinions of others, and then we'll have fun watching flash mobs nail them to crosses and make them prophets.

Re:I for one..

[Linker3000]

You're new here eh?

Re:Man is he in for a surprise or what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like a book that I know.

This is a really bad idea.

[DragonTHC]

Fear is good. Fear keeps us safe and alive. Fear is our response to danger.

Without fear, we do stupid things. Without fear, there is no courage.

Without fear, the species will go extinct.

Re:This is a really bad idea.

[sexybomber]

Fear is good. Fear keeps us safe and alive. Fear is our response to danger.

No, fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.

Brilliant!

[sacob]

Now they just need to gouge out the eyes of the mice, and then they will fear nothing!!

Re:I for one..

[masterzora]

Okay, I see by your UID that you are in fact new here, but you really should know that /. memes are /. memes; you will never convince anyone on /. to stop posting them here.

vomeronasal organ?

[N1ck0]

Does this involve the VMO (vomeronasal organ), which allows mice to detect pheromones, or is it a different olfactory structure?

If so, it not only stops mice from fearing cats, but also makes them GLBT

It that really the conclusion?

[Elucid]

Maybe someone pointed this out already, or perhaps I am just a bozo...

If a mouse's sensorium is determined a great deal by its sense of smell... and you disable that sense of smell... its "higher-order cerebral functions" would be impaired because they would not be getting the input they require to make decisions. How can you conclude that fear in mammals is related to the oflactory sense? Other mammals may use other senses to a larger degree.

To me, this seems like the old joke about the bad scientist who concluded that a frog with all its legs removed becomes deaf because it doen't jump when he yells at it.

Re:It that really the conclusion?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not too hard to find the real science paper. I really wish the papers were linked. Most of these science blogs fail to mention the point of the article they cover. This one is in Nature and the abstract says, "The mutant mice lacked innate responses to aversive odorants, even though they were capable of detecting them and could be conditioned for aversion with the remaining glomeruli."

Re:It that really the conclusion?

[BlendieOfIndie]

From the article: "However, in other experiments, the researchers demonstrated that mice with impaired olfactory functions can also be taught to fear their predators." I'm curious what the mouse does when it sees the cat. If a man was blind folded & thrown into a cage of lions, I don't believe it would take long for him to pee himself. The point is that humans' secondary sense (hearing) easily fills in for the lack of primary sense (sight). If the mouse's sense of smell completely dominates the other senses, then maybe there isn't a secondary sense that readily fills in the gap. However, when a humans eye sight is impaired, eventually his hearing becomes more acute. Perhaps the mouse learns to fear the cat when its senses become more adept at detecting the cat. It appears that the article was not written by one of the scientist that did the study. Their input would be very useful for filling in the empirical gaps. There's gotta be some white papers floating around somewhere...

And what?

[pease1]

I once knew a Golden Retriever who had hay fever. Put him in the field and let him see a duck get shot. He'd run after the duck, and as he got closer, as all duck dogs tend to do, would start use his nose more then his eyes. After a couple of minutes, he'd come up sneezing and sneezing and never would find that duck.

Yep. Turn off part of the sense of smell, and critters might lose an instinct or two.

Toxoplasma gondii

[hhth]

Mr. Gondii already figured this one out "T. gondii infections have the ability to change the behavior of rats and mice, making them drawn to rather than fearful of the scent of cats. This effect is advantageous to the parasite, which will be able to sexually reproduce if its host is eaten by a cat" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasma_gondii hhth

Re:Smell only? Not with all animals.

[Herschel Cohen]

I remember reading that elk (or perhaps deer) had to relearn to fear wolves when they were reintroduced into Western U.S. National parks. Wolves had been gone so long that throwing feces near them elicited no response, hence, they relearned the forgotten survival skill the hard way.

Re:I for one..

[Cheshire_Smile]

I've been reading Slashdot daily for nearly a year. I don't usually post, I'm more interested in what the experts have to say. I'm getting a little fed up with the stupidly over used comments though. There are places (lots of places) online where you can go to say these things and get a laugh. Leave Slashdot as an intellectual retreat :)

Dick Cheney....

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a hilarious comment about Dick Cheney, but I forgot--oh shit! What's that? A CAT! RUN!

can they be detected by stupidfilter?

[Bodrius]

One project aims at fighting stupidity; another successfully engineers it.

Re:can they be detected by stupidfilter?

[Nilych]

New meaning to 'defective by design' eh?

I have an idea!

[8127972]

If you're in the pest control industry, you could do the following:

1. Discover a way to make mice not fear cats
2. Create a delivery system to get this into mice (much in the same way that you lay out poison for mice)
3. Encourage people to get both the delivery system and cats to solve their mouse problem.
4. ?????
5. Profit!

But wait, there's more!

[pig-power]

Next experiment: To take the brain function out of the scientists that tells
them to get out of the way of an 18-wheeler rolling at them.
Oh, fun times!

Missing tag!

[computerman413]

Somebody please tag this 'itchyandscratchy'!

Big deal!

[ishpeck]

If a mouse grows up with cats, it won't be afraid. They've done nothing with bioengineering that can't be done with training.

Simpsons did it!

[urcreepyneighbor]

The Simpsons - Season 12 - Episode 16 - Bye Bye Nerdy

Lisa tries to befriend a new student, only to become the target of the girl's violent outbursts. When the bully, Francine, beheads Malibu Stacey, Lisa vows to get to the root of the problem. After scientific research on typical bully targets (i.e. nerds), Lisa discovers that it's the nerd scent that sets off Francine and the other school bullies. Lisa invents an antidote and is hailed a heroine by geeks everywhere.

Re:I for one..

[rob1980]

Set your funny modifier to -6. Out of sight, out of mind.

Not With Other Genetic Modifications

[Greyfox]

We're engineering our mice to be stronger... faster... smarter... better... The new super-mouse will be able to take on a cat... and WIN! Immortality for mice is just around the corner. This is not an evolutionary dead end! This is the future of life as we know it!

Re:Not With Other Genetic Modifications

[ZorinLynx]

Mr. trouble never hangs around,
when he hears this Mighty sound,

Here I come to save the day!
That means that Mighty Mouse is on the way!

Sorry, couldn't resist. :)

we're still lead around by our noses;-}

[Anonymous Coward]

the 'higher' functions can only modulate what the nose demands...i knew a jr.h.s. teacher who raved about the raging pheromones in school; he later got a divorce after cheating on his wife;-{ @ his 2nd wedding, i watched a married man following a hottie around...it looked like he had a hook in his nose; he later cheated & divorced:-{

then there's the well-documented menstrual synchrony of women living together...

i've also read that a woman prefers the scent of a man who is most unlike her father & brothers; since odor is closely related to immune system genetics, this is good for diversity...however, i've heard that women on the pill lose this preference:-(

perhaps that explains the increase in immune-system disorders such as asthma, maybe other problems...

Down, Up, Left, Left, A, Right, Down

[dintech]

I'm not trying to be all gloom and doom, but there's no way they fully understand what modifications they made.

Reminds me of the cheat mode in Mortal Kombat where you could set loads of optional flags. It was really hard to work out what any of them actually did. Except this is with mice...

Useful for pest control??

[Reziac]

I had another thought -- release some of these into the wild to breed with normal-fearful mice, to make them more "lunchable" for predators, as a natural method of rodent control. Might be particularly useful in areas where you can't use poison bait.

Side thought: I wonder if there's a similar gene that occurs occasionally in wild cottontail rabbits? Sometimes we see a batch of 'em that are just plain stupid-fearless, way beyond the norm. Needless to say, they tend not to make it to maturity (which is a good thing when you're overrun with Starving Attack Rabbits).

Re:Useful for pest control??

[JavaRob]

I had another thought -- release some of these into the wild to breed with normal-fearful mice, to make them more "lunchable" for predators, as a natural method of rodent control. Might be particularly useful in areas where you can't use poison bait. Nope -- the changed gene drastically reduces the fitness of carriers, so they'd get cleared out of the gene pool pretty quickly. That's natural selection for ya.... You'd be slightly ahead (since the altered mouse could have bred with a female that *otherwise* would have found a non-altered mate), but not enough to make any difference.

Epigenetics

[Rolgar]

This is developing into a new field of study known as Epigenetics. Environmental factors, such as diet and exposure to toxins can activate or deactivate genetics.

Read more at:
Discover Magazine, November 2006
Wikepedia: Epigenetics.
Science Magazine

Re:Epigenetics

[Nigel Stepp]

I'm glad someone mentioned this, I was reading though the comments in order to make the same observation (specifically probabilistic epigenetics, cf. Gottlieb).

It is especially interesting given the similar examples in that field, such as monkeys not being afraid of snakes if they eat just fruit instead of insects.

Non-obvious causes may be just as influential as those obvious ones everyone is always on about.

Toxoplasmosis does the same thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Toxoplasma gondii causes rats and mice to lose their fear of predators (pet cats & dogs), in fact rats may seek out cat-urine-marked areas - a fine example of a disease that alters behavior so to increase its transmission rate. The effect on humans (and entire populations - cultures) is hotly disputed - intriguingly cats and dogs are rarely kept as pets in the Islamic world where they are deemed un-Islamic.

Why build a better mousetrap...

[PrescriptionWarning]

when you can build a dumber mouse!

No smell equals no fear?

[Kashra]

I haven't read the paper, but the first thought that comes to mind is: how do they know the mouse has no fear of cats? What if the mouse simply isn't getting the cue of a predator's scent in order to react with fear? Fear could still be a higher brain function that responds to lower functions such as scent. If you disrupt the input, of course the mouse isn't going to process it.

Its still interesting that plain sight of a cat wouldn't trigger the same cue, but perhaps mice simply aren't that visually oriented. Different animals prioritize different senses.

Lemme be the first (and only?) to say...

[xtracto]

Al gato y al ratón, jugabas con mi amor, al gato y al ratón, sin consideración!

Re:Lemme be the first (and only?) to say...

[rupert0]

Banda Machos .. that is so a inside joke...

Solution is worse than the problem!

[nobodyman]

For example, without a doubt the best way to get rid of the squirrels in your attic is to squirt just a small amount of fox urine fox urine up there.

Oh yeah? Well what happens when my attic is bristling with foxes . Now that they smell a fox-friendly, air conditioned home? What then, smarty pants? Bobcat urine? No thanks! I'll stick with squirrels, thankyouverymuch. At least they fill my attic with acorns.

Re:Solution is worse than the problem!

[goose-incarnated]

For example, without a doubt the best way to get rid of the squirrels in your attic is to squirt just a small amount of fox urine fox urine up there.

Oh yeah? Well what happens when my attic is bristling with foxes . Now that they smell a fox-friendly, air conditioned home? What then, smarty pants? Bobcat urine? No thanks! I'll stick with squirrels, thankyouverymuch. At least they fill my attic with acorns.

I wouldn't worry about it; sounds like your attic is filled, alright.

R.O.U.S.

[mabhatter654]

That's because it's BIGGER than most cats!!! The wonders of genetic engineering.

Re:R.O.U.S.

[Nefarious Wheel]

You keep using that gene. I don't think it means what you think it means.

A quick thought:

[Badmovies]

Darwin wept.

Military Use

[ckibbyrun]

Why can I see this falling into the dark realm of military research? This is perfect for the military as they can genetically modify soldiers to be afraid of nothing and drastically speed up the training process while also creating a soldier that reacts and performs better in normally terrifying situations.

MOUSE HUNT

[eeek77]

I'm replying to the host of comments saying that the fear is healthy and keeps them alive. C'mon, have you seen the movie Mouse Hunt? That mouse feared nothing and he beat the living stuff out of those two guys and anyone else who entered the house. Without fear, you can assess the situation, tie the audio/visual cable to the winch, push the button and watch the bug man fly, without having your "flee" instincts take over. We just need to make sure we don't create a new species that tries to take over the world.

Fearless mice = dad mice = end of world

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the end of the world. Mice will die by way of cats, dead mice harbor disease carrying fleas. Bubonic plague. Fleas jump to other animals, then to humans, 200 Million peopl die.

All because of the genetically re-engineered mice.

Re:Smell only? Not with all animals.

[Anonymous Coward]

"What did you do at work today?"

"I threw wolf feces at moose (mooses? moosen?) all day."

Hand me the cheeseballs

[EmbeddedJanitor]

I have this urge to snack!

In another story....

[Lained]

.... scientists discovered that by removing all legs to a spider it becomes deaf. The reason behind this is because the spider jumped when asked until all legs were removed, and from there it stop responding to the scientist jump commands.

dont need nose removall

[Atreide]

itchy is afraid of no scratchy !

What they don't mention...

[MiniMike]

... is that the mouse is 8 feet tall!

The cat, however, was quite scared.

oblig simpsons

[Joe the Lesser]

They love,
they share;
They love and share and care;
Love and share!
Share and care!
The Itchy and Scratchy Show!

Scratchy: "Lemonade?"
Itchy: "Please."
Scratchy: "I made it just for you."
Itchy: "You are my best friend. Mmm. This really hits the spot."
Scratchy: "Doesn't it though?"
Itchy: "You make really good lemonade, Scratchy."
Scratchy: "Thank you, Itchy."

Heh

[Moraelin]

Heh... while I understand your righteous rage, you might want to calm down and understand that there are shades of grey between instant awe of any (often pseudo-)science journalism and attacking science as a whole. One can nit-pick at breakthrough claims without questioning science as a whole, you know.

In this case, the fact is, we don't know a lot of the things that would be needed to present the claim in the summary as proven fact.

We don't know, for a start, that the particular protein they changed has exactly one role, and one alone. You'll find that "God" (and I use that term mostly as a metaphor, because I'm really an agnostic leaning towards atheism) loves spaghetti code, and never heard of cohesive and loosely coupled modules. It's quite common for the same protein to affect half a dozen logically unrelated things, and then the "code" segment that encoded it to _also_ be data segment for another protein. And it's quite common for one change to to affect stuff that you wouldn't even think about off the top of your head. And there are no regression tests to run.

So, for example, did removing the sense of smell really make the mice fearless because the same brain lobe processes both? _Or_ maybe it's just that the same protein is responsible for the functioning of more than one part of the brain? It's very possible that the same change that removed their sense of smell, for example, also makes them schizophrenic or stupid or generally broke a whole other circuit.

Second, we don't know what is cause and what is effect there. Did removing their sense of smell really remove their circuitry for fear? _Or_ maybe it just removed an input to the latter?

I can see how smell would be the primary input for a later stage that decides whether to flee. Why? Because cats are ambush hunters, and most natural species of cat heavily employ disruptive camouflage. The stripes of a tabby cat, for example, makes it very hard for the limited neuron budget of a mouse brain to decode the shape of the whole. (And ironically a zebra uses the same against lions.) It's harder to decide by sight whether that's a stationary cat or a mess of leaves and grass, than to use your nose and run like crazy if you smell one.

So did removing the smell there, really remove fear _or_ did it just remove the primary input to a later circuit?

Noone's saying that the experiment as a whole is meaningless. But I too would say that we probably don't really know exactly what it means.

Maybe more experiments later will shed some more light on it. I sure would hope so. But right now it's too early IMHO for that kind of a running leap to conclusions.

Where does domestication fit in?

[BlueF]

I had several (pet) mice when I was growing up who would chase our cats around the house.

Genetic Arms Race

[HangingChad]

But by then it will be far too late to do anything but welcome our new cheese-eating overlords.

Yeah and the next thing you know the cats will be conducting genetic experiments to make members of their species even more powerful and fearless mouse resistant. This will kick off an genetic arms race eventually leading to mice and cats evolving into beings of pure energy.

Then someone in Alabama will figure out how to run their pickup truck off cat energy creatures and upset the whole balance of power.

toxoplasmosis parasite also flips this switch

[doug141]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/04/070403-cats-rats.html

"The parasite Toxoplasma gondii uses a remarkable trick to spread from rodents to cats: It alters the brains of infected rats and mice so that they become attracted to--rather than repelled by--the scent of their predators. "

Several false assumptions, there.

[AJWM]

It seems the only way evolution could explain this is by saying that the vast-majority of mice without this gene were promptly eliminated by cats and taken out of the gene pool.

Not at all.

Consider a population of pre-mice, without the gene, that are reasonably adept at avoiding predators for other reasons -- camouflage, fast, good hearing, whatever. Then some sub-population of these critters acquires this gene. Said sub-population becomes much more adept at avoiding predators, and tend to out-survive (and hence, out-reproduce) those without it. Perhaps later, since that gene is so effective, the biological cost of the other avoidance factors (camouflage, hearing, speed etc) outweighs the advantage they confer, and they fade from the population, or perhaps not. Probably in the pre-smell avoidance gene days, cats and other predators were on average slower, and the predator population slowly gets faster as the quick ones outcompete the slow ones.

Likewise for the smell of other predators. But that would imply that there was initially an enumerated list of odors

Not at all.

This assumes that not only do all predators smell different, but that the odor-causing chemical in each species is completely unrelated to all others. This is highly improbable. More likely the odorant chemical is identical or very nearly so in mouse-predator species, probably some byproduct of digesting and metabolizing mouse (and other rodent) proteins. (Consider also that there are only a few different families of mammalian rodent predators - felis, canis, mustelidae - and this smell aversion probably doesn't work for snakes or owls.)

Re:Several false assumptions, there.

[letxa2000]

Me: It seems the only way evolution could explain this is by saying that the vast-majority of mice without this gene were promptly eliminated by cats and taken out of the gene pool.

You: Consider a population of pre-mice, without the gene, that are reasonably adept at avoiding predators for other reasons -- camouflage, fast, good hearing, whatever. Then some sub-population of these critters acquires this gene.

This seems unlikely to me.

This assumes that not only do all predators smell different, but that the odor-causing chemical in each species is completely unrelated to all others. This is highly improbable. More likely the odorant chemical is identical or very nearly so in mouse-predator species...

This seems reasonable to me, though I still feel that the question of a gene just happening to appear in a mouse that just happens to make that mouse sensitive to the odor of its likely predators pushes the envelope of statistical credibility.

But I do thank you for pointing out that the odor of its likely predators is probably similar. That's certainly a valid point.

Re:Several false assumptions, there.

[hitmark]

its not like something suddenly go pop and there the gene is. its refined over generations.
so the first versions would maybe give the carrier a small edge, but over time said edge would become more and more weighted compared to others.

as for odors being similar, i would guess that say foxes and wolfs have a similar baseline smell, but with variations. same with cats, lions and pumas. it could be that the same genes that control how a animal looks, control its odor.

another question is, does gene sorting stop when a animal is born? or is there a continual sorting as the animal ages? as in, genes, who's cells gets used more, gets priority in the next generation?

Re:Several false assumptions, there.

[AJWM]

This seems reasonable to me, though I still feel that the question of a gene just happening to appear in a mouse that just happens to make that mouse sensitive to the odor of its likely predators pushes the envelope of statistical credibility.

The word "feel" is incompatible with "statistical credibility". Statistics are notoriously counter-intuitive.

Think through the statistics -- tens (hundreds?) of millions of generations of tens (hundreds?) of millions of mice. Mutations happen all the time -- retroviruses, chemical or radiation damage, transcription errors -- but most confer either nothing or a negative advantage, and aren't seen again (unless they spontaneously arise again -- although changes due to retrovirus activity are more likely to recur). It only takes one "good" mutation in one breeding mouse to propagate. Even a slight edge gets multiplied over successive generations.

Re:Several false assumptions, there.

[Anonymous Coward]

another question is, does gene sorting stop when a animal is born? or is there a continual sorting as the animal ages? as in, genes, who's cells gets used more, gets priority in the next generation?

Huh? No. That was more or less Darwin's original hypothesis, before Gregor Mendel's work was recognized, and before the discovery of DNA and genes. Evolution works by natural selection of an entire population, not improvement of the individual. Your DNA does not change, unless you're exposed to large amounts of mutagen, which is rarely a good thing.

If memory serves...

[RJBeery]

...toxoplasmosis does the same thing to mice.

In a fascinating infectious lifecycle, a mouse with toxoplasmosis is eaten by a cat, which then harbors the responsible parasite in its intestinal tract. The feline's feces is now infected, and the next mouse to come in contact with it is now infected as well. This mouse now loses his innate fear of cats, which virtually guarantees that he'll be eaten. Lather, rinse, repeat!

-R

In other news

[Anonymous Coward]

Scientists built genetically engineered cheese which is not scared of mice.

Read Temple Gradin's book

[spun]

Her book, Animals in Translation has a bit about these mice. Very interesting, by the way. It seems there are two different olfactory systems, a 'near' one and 'far' one. The near system can only detect close up smells, while the far system can smell things further away. Prey animals are only afraid of close-up predators, as anyone who has ever seen a squirrel taunting a cat knows. Mice with just the 'far' smell system turned off will still be afraid of cat smells. Mice with the near system won't. The scientists did actually test to see if the mice were still afraid of cats at all, of course. And yes, a cat running up at them will still scare any mouse who still has active fear centers. But they have also done experiments breeding out fear, and those guys will just sit there staring at the cat until they become lunch.

Not scared of cats.

[spicydragonz]

Mr. Scratchy please allow me to introduce to you to Mr. Itchy.

Old joke related to yours...

[sm62704]

A flea is munching on an elephant, and starts getting horney. Having no other fleas to screw, he decides to do the elephant (shush that "don't play with your food" nonsense). Anyway, he's humping the elephant when a coconut falls on the elephant's head. "OW!" exclams the elephant.

"Suffer, baby, suffer" says the flea.

Wrong assumptions

[Moraelin]

You have some wrong implicit assumptions there.

1. First of all, you seem to assume that the gene that recognizes "cat smell" just appeared out of nowhere. That's not the case. Even one cell organism have various degrees of analyzing the chemistry around them, because that's such a damn useful signal. Primitive sea organisms had some kind of sense of smell long before they even evolved eyes. Move out of the water and even primitive insects have a lot of smell sensors on their antennae.

So by the time they evolved to a mouse, it _already_ had a very sophisticated sense of smell, and the brain power to process, analyze, categorize and react to smells.

2. Even being sensitive to a very specific cat protein, if they have such cells, is easily explainable by mutation. Binding to some other mollecule is what proteins _do_. There are thousands of enzymes in your body that, basically, interact with just a single chemical, repeatedly. That's how you can process fructose (corn syrup) into glucose: an enzyme just breaks one molecule after another.

Heck, you even have cells in your immune system which _deliberately_ mutate until they make a protein that can match another protein. There's an enzyme whose sole role is to junk a random codon (think: byte) of DNA, so the DNA repair mechanisms would kick in, and occasionally get it wrong. And given enough time eventually you end up with a gene, by sheer random chance, that exactly matches the capsid of a new virus or some membrane proteins of a new bacteria. Amazing (and amazingly inefficient, if some God designed it), but there you go: making a protein that matches another protein is nothing new.

So given billions of billions of individuals, over millions of years, it wouldn't be surprising at all if some mice accidentally evolved noses perfectly attuned to cats. It could even start with a mouse with allergy to, say, FEL-D1 (a protein all felines have, and which is triggers cat allergies in some people), and it ended up giving his kids an advantage. From there it could evolve from mere allergy to panic attack, because the more scared you are of a cat, the more survival chances you have.

3. It's all chemistry, and there aren't that many mediators that regulate the moods. Triggering, for example, a panic just involves giving the right chemical signal.

And in the case of mice and rats, it's just that. There is no higher logic circuit in deciding to run from a cat. The smell just literally gives them a severe, illogical panic attack. When they test anxiety medication on rats, it's quite common to use cat urine to give them a reflex panic attack, then see if your drug calms them down. The running away is just the result of that panic, nothing more.

So don't think there's some complex coding involved. Even a simple enzyme could do just that: process the protein or chemical specific to cats, into the chemical that puts the brain into panic mode.

Plus, the way proteins work is rarely orthogonal coded. A small change here, produces an unrelated effect there. Some circuit in the brain could have simply been accidentally mis-wired to relay the signal along the wrong path, or release the wrong mediator.

At any rate, so a proto-mouse got a severe panic attack at the smell of a proto-feline, just because of a mutation, and it ended up saving his/her life. Then the kids inherit it and are the ones who have less of a chance of getting eaten.

4. Precisely the fact that it _doesn't_ react to other predators, should probably tell you that there is no higher intelligence or design at work.

The mice simply evolved to deal with the _existing_ threats, not to be the thing that can universally deal with any imaginable carnivore. Threats that actually existed and killed some of the mice, were evolutionary pressures. The mice which could deal with them, were more likely to survive, so those genes got passed on. The threats that they didn't have to deal with, _weren't_ evolutionary pressures and made no difference. So if a mouse-e

Re:Wrong assumptions

[autophile]

When they test anxiety medication on rats, it's quite common to use cat urine to give them a reflex panic attack, then see if your drug calms them down. The running away is just the result of that panic, nothing more.

That's interesting, I didn't know that. However, when I give my pet rats free time on the bed, and a cat hops up, a rat will run right up to the cat (I guess to see what's this new thing), and the cat will get freaked and run away. In some cases the rat will get close enough to the cat to grab the cat's fur.

So I think there could be something going on in the higher regions of a rat's brain to inhibit the panic reaction. Perhaps a rat raised as a pet learns that new things are nothing to be scared of.

--Rob

Re:Wrong assumptions

[Moraelin]

Toxoplasma also causes exactly what you describe. In order to complete the cycle and end back in a cat's gut, the parasite literally reprograms the rodent to actually like cats instead of getting a panic attack. Sick enough rats have been known to actually go looking for a cat, or for places marked by a cat.

Re:Wrong assumptions

[mvdwege]

As a long-time cat owner, coming from a family of farmers on my grandfather's side, I can state with surety that cats are lousy ratters, precisely because rats don't have a fear reflex with regards to cats. A cornered mouse will become paralysed with fear, a cornered rat will fight. And cats being solitary predators, have evolved a very fine sense of self-preservation; they will usually not attack prey that shows signs of fighting, as any wound may become a debilitating liability (bite wounds tend to fester) with no pack to take care of you in the meantime.

Try this on a cat while playing with a piece of string: swing the string towards the cat, and the cat will shrink back. The cat attacks once string swings away.

The primary fighters against rats among the domesticated species are terrier dogs. There is a reason for this.

Mart

It known that eating red meat changes your smell.

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if perhaps prey did not evolve certain chemicals which cause predators to produce this smell, which in turn allows the surviving prey to detect the predator?

About these researchers...

[smitth1276]

Were any of them, by any chance, named Fluffy, Snowflake, or Mr. Tinkles?

Darwin did it!!

[tacocat]

According to the theory of evolution it's fairly likely that such a mouse has already been seen in the pathways of evolution. Unfortunately him and his entire family where eaten by a neighboring cat.

Considering the net effect this would have on the survivability of the mouse, I don't know that this was an experiment in the mouses best interest. What's next? A dog that fears cats?

Re:Darwin did it!!

[Zarf]

What's next? A dog that fears cats? My dog fears cats already... does this mean I get a grant?

Lack of fear is all well and good...

[NoPantsJim]

...until you get eaten.

Conspiracy?

[dreamchaser]

Ok first they announce they've engineered agressive, 'super' mice. Now they've found away to make said ubermice no longer afraid of cats.

Does anyone else smell something funny here? I'll bet money that the Dogs are behind it. They want a proxy army of ubermice with no fear for the coming battle between Dogs and Cats.

Flag Experiment as Racist

[Anonymous Coward]

This experiment is saying that attitudes may be influenced by a creatures genetics, and not just a result of social construction. This is an essentialist, racist, bigoted myth that is used to oppress people. This is racist science.

Flag Experiment as Racist

[a whoabot]

This experiment is saying that attitudes may be influenced by a creatures genetics, and not just a result of social construction. This is an essentialist, racist, bigoted myth that is used to oppress people. This is clearly racist science, no different from Nazi eugenics.

Shame on you Slashdotters. Shame.

Fearless or smellless?

[tonsofpcs]

Something (doesn't) smell fishy here... Could it be that the mouse is simply unable to smell or interpret any smells at all and not that they 'found the point to' remove the ability of the mouse to interpret the smell of predators?

Mighty Mouse?

[Russ Nelson]

Is this the genesis of Mighty Mouse?

Ear ear!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget 'with giant ears on their backs'!

Two mice converse

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

Bob: Hey Fred! There's a cat coming. Run for your life!
Fred: Whatever. I've been poked, prodded, sliced open, wired up with electrodes, genetically reengineered and generally abused by Homo Sapiens 5,000 times my size. What do I care about some feline?

Well...

[wcrowe]

(Insert favorite pussy joke here)

Hanta virus mice

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never seen a mouse that can carry Hanta virus be afraid of cats...

They could have achieved the same result

[wcrowe]

They could have achieved the same result by giving the mouse a tiny shot of tequila.

But does it have four asses?

[MickDownUnder]

MR. MEPHESTO
It's thanks to the wonder of genetic engineering that soon there will be an end to hunger, disease, pollution, even war. I've created things that will change the world for the better
-- (pointing) --
For instance, here is a monkey with four asses. In a cage is a medium sized monkey with four asses that looks pissed off.

KYLE
(To Stan)
How does that make the world better? Stan shrugs. Mephesto shows them more pissed-off animals.

MR. MEPHESTO
And here, of course, is my four-assed ostrich, and my four-assed mongoose.

The Boys look increasingly confused.

STAN
Do you have anything besides just animals with four asses?

MR. MEPHESTO
Oh, well, I suppose so... Ah yes, over here --

Mephesto points to some odd-looking animals.

MR. MEPHESTO
Here I have rats spliced with ducks... And gorillas spliced with mosquitos. And here I have rabbits spliced with fish to make little bunny fish!!

In a tank, four fish with bunny ears swim around. Cartman looks at them closely and notices that the bunny ears have
little strings attached to them.

CARTMAN
Hey... These bunny ears are tied on with little strings!

MR. MEPHESTO
And over here is swiss cheese spliced with chalk... And a beard.

The boys look at the bearded swiss cheese with chalk.

KYLE
Well what about our pot-bellied elephant?

MR. MEPHESTO
Oh... well I'm sorry children, but pig and elephant DNA just won't splice. Haven't you ever heard that song by Loverboy?

KYLE
Which song is that?

MR. MEPHESTO
"Da'n Do-A, Pig and Elephant D-N-A Just Won't Splice?".

The kids look at each other.

MR. MEPHESTO
However maybe I could help you add a few asses to that swine of yours.

CARTMAN
You can keep your hands off of Fluffy's ass!

What about taste?

[CYDVicious]

So how long before they have beautiful GM Women that taste "it" as a delicious delicacy?

Re:What about taste?

[mqduck]

That can already be done by conditioning.

nice result but...

[tgibbs]

I'd have been astonished if it worked any other way. Did anybody ever really believe that mice learn to flee from cats by experience? How many experiences of the consequences of failing to flee from a cat do you imagine that the average mouse gets? I'd expect an instinctive response, wired into the nervous system at a very low level, with as few synaptic delays as possible. What is more interesting is how crucial a role smell plays. One might imagine that size, gaze, or movement might be the trigger. But smell is probably the fastest, as it does not invoke that complicated visual recognition circuitry.

Hmmmm....

[Copperfield]

Is it possible to make mice not fear my .22?

Re:Smell only? Not with all animals.

[Whiteox]

moosii

Parasites do the same thing

[Anonymous Coward]

This article reminded me of another article I read recently (I was actually suspecting this was a dupe because of it). Basically, these genetically modified mice have the same behavior as mice infected with this parasite.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/08/060804085444.htm

intelligence

[Anonymous Coward]

So they discovered a stupid mouse and call it genetically modified?

A better mousetrap!

[mcvos]

No seriously, that's what this is all about. The mousetrap industry funds research that build better, faster, stronger, smarter, fearless mice, thus increasing demand for a better mousetrap.

Maybe it just doesn't know how to react?

[shumacher]

How do they know the mouse isn't scared?
Maybe it's just going:
"Oh shit! It's a cat! What do I do? What do I do? Okay, calm down Jerry. You're a smart mouse. That's it - just pretend you didn't see it. Ignore the cat."

Or maybe the mouse's ability to identify animals is screwed up?
"Aww, look at the baby mouse. It's so cute. A little tall though. 'Look at you; you're such a cute baby!'"

Or maybe the mouse thinks the cat is a toaster, or a beer can koozy, or something of the sort.

I for one

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one welcome our fearless miceonian? overlords...

If you do run from a bear...

[fahrbot-bot]

And, that's why in survival training the tell you not to run from a bear. If the bear sees you run you trigger the predator response.

Remember. You don't have to out run the bear, just your friend. :-)