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Microsoft Fueling HD Wars For Own Benefit?
DaveyJJ writes "According to Transformers' director Michael Bay, in a story over on Electronista, Microsoft is deliberately feeding into the HD disc format wars to ensure that its own downloads succeed where physical copies fail, he says in a response to a question posed through his official forums. The producer contends that Microsoft is writing "$100 million dollar checks" to movie studios to ensure HD DVD exclusives that hurt the overall market regardless of the format's actual merit or its popularity, preventing any one format from gaining a clear upper hand."
Embrase, Expand, Extinguish. that is not how Microsoft works they get by by making quality products...
No I couldn't write this with a straight face.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
After all the tripe Michael Bay's given us, I'd doubt him if he said the sun comes up in the east.
I'd love to help you out -- which way did you come in?
...Or maybe it's because Microsoft has been a strong backer of the format since the very beginning, and doesn't want it to end up like all of Sony's other consumer device formats. (Betamax, MiniDisc, Memory Stick, SACD, UMD...)
...Or maybe it's because HD-DVD is the format that its cash cow video game console system supports, whereas they have nothing to do with Blu-ray.
Of course, I could just be grasping at straws.
At any rate, I do think he is right in that neither format will be the choice for obtaining and playing hi-def content, online distribution ultimately will win.
Does anyone think that this is something Microsoft wouldn't do? This is not the first time they have thrown money to the detriment of an industry for their own benefit and it won't be the last.
My humor is probably your flamebait
... winning a monopoly case against Microsoft wouldn't Michael Bay is just PO'd that he isn't making more money hand over fist on that abortion of a commercial called "Transformers". I couldn't even tell it was a real movie through all the obvious and in your face product placement.
If this is true (which I doubt), I'm fine with it. Not because I agree with the means, but I'm certainly OK with the end if both formats fail. Perhaps the Sonys and the Toshibas of the world will learn. /yeah right.
What Bay says in the interview is, essentially, that Microsoft is propping up HD DVD as a stalling tactic until they have a download only technology that can compete.
I am skeptical of that development occurring anytime soon, but the summary does a poor job of making the point.
Strike that word "other." I'm well aware that HD-DVD isn't a Sony format. What I said and what I was thinking when I typed that (Sony's consumer device formats other than the competing Blu-ray...) obviously wasn't quite in sync.
Crap, I'm gonna correct my own post. The love of money is the root of all evil. But still, M$ has so much of it, that I'm pretty sure they love it. And, they are hoping that other's love of money will get them there way. Just goes to prove that M$ is PURE EVIL.
From being on the inside, talking to multiple Microsoft people including execs. I don't think this is a full out company wide goal of supporting HD-DVD. They're smart, but they don't predict long-term goals that well. I think their downloadable video's were aided in an accidental benefit of no clear direction in the format wars. They have been pushing HD-DVD since the beginning. With Big Screen installs in Circuit City/Best Buy stores using HD-DVD player attachments to play movies, games, etc.
Because heaven knows Sony hasn't thrown around a ton of money to make sure it gets as many studios and others on the Blu Ray train.
Both Sony and MS throw money into supporting the horse that their respective wagon is tied to. That's how it is.
And I agree that in the long term on line distribution will win, but before it can the internet as we know it needs some substantial upgrading. Not to support the concept (it already does), but to support what happens when the masses start using it.
I'm a fiscal conservative, it's a pity we don't have a political party anymore
...sort of destroys his argument (at least in the anti MS aspect)
Does he have any sort of proof to back up this assertion? Not to mention that TFA states that Bay has gone on record saying he prefers Blu-ray. Considering all the crap that Michael Bay has put out, I have no problem calling this his own version of FUD.
This guy's the limit!
Microsoft wrote the software for the HD interactive, which means they must be getting a royalty for each machine.
What's a few $100M here and there when you have the potential to collect so many licenses from consumer boxes?
Plus, the Blu-Ray content software is written in Java. What better reason for MS to hate it?
This development appears to be consistent and predictable. Look at Vista and its license agreement, and you see M$ trying to control not only the software layer but levying requirements on hardware makers, i.e. toe the line and show commitment to DRM in every layer of hardware or M$ won't certify your drivers, and this means NOT providing any open source drivers to the Linux community. Although Peter Gutmann's essay contained some inaccuracies, it detailed these steps. Why did M$ abandon technical functionality for the end user in favor of an OS that provides a bit of eye candy to users but a whole lot of technology that is aimed at protecting content provider monopoly? Why did they release the ultra-DRM portable platform, the Zune, about the same time? Why is M$ now meddling in the media content market, apparently trying to orchestrate some sort of movement in HD media? It has looked for some time like M$ sees the revenue stream Apple has through ITunes and thought it worthwhile to put a stake in the ground for developing a media market. Which, in typical M$ fashion, they want to control absolutely. Look for M$ to either acquire or announce a media provider that offers only protected WMA and ultra-DRMed MP3 formats to compete against ITunes. M$ sees that the OS and application space has limited legs. They appear to be making a move toward becoming a content provider. Pretty savvy on their part, but I think their jack-booted super-mega-ultra-DRM approach will not be well received. They're either way out in front on the cutting edge, or a dinosaur trying to put a cap on emerging mammals in the media marketplace. Time will tell.
So wait, Microsoft is actually encouraging more choice in the marketplace? And of course its taken as a negative. I sure love slashdot.
Maybe MS sees Blu Ray as the next Betamax? (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060420-6641.html)
Maybe since they're offering their set top game box in HD DVD it's a business interest?
What's the problem here and why is this news?
They have real interest in seeing HD get the upper hand. Yes. Would they like to see downloadable content as a better business prospective? Yes. Who doesn't. MS has invested billions into their 360 product, throwing in a bit more money to give it the edge in home movies isn't unthinkable and certainly isn't unheard of.
I seriously do not understand why people are in such a twist over this. Oh, that's right, it's because it's big bad Microsoft and we all need to focus our attention for our daily two minutes of hate.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
ultimately, this is par the course for any technology provider that is trying to offer a format for content distribution. Sony already did this when it bought Columbia Pictures (1989), and more recently bought MGM studios(2004), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Pictures_Entertainment
Its my understanding that Sony is buying these companies solely so that they can have the content released exclusively on Sony brand technology. This stemmed from there loss over the VHS/Betamax wars. So, Sony has done exactly what Microsoft is doing, only times 10 in terms of scale and length of time.
Why leave the success of your technology to the markets of distribution when you can just buy the distribution you want? If buying the media companies is cheaper than having them distribute on a competing tech. then of course companies are going to do it.
Microsoft would fit right in with the USA Government. Maybe they are the government.
While Transformers was an entertaining movie, it was rife with product placement. One such product that was prominently shown was an Xbox 360 that transformed into a mini Decepticon (near the end of the movie). Michael Bay did not seem to have a problem with MS when he put that into his movie.
Nobody wanted two different hd formats, it was just that some companies wanted to cash in on their own stuff. Id say this time I am on Microsofts side, they are just intelligent enough to see an idiocy where everybody outside of Sony, Toshiba etc... could see it as well!
There is no doubt that Microsoft is bribing and making deals behind the screens to make HD DVD come out on top.
I did buy a BluRay player anyway, but we'll see how it goes. Consumers can still vote with their wallets, and I hope they do.
-m
http://www.invisik.com
If they know it's going to hurt the industry, it's the studios responsibility to not take that check. They're the ones living off the industry, so it's their job to make sure it's sustained. If they repeatedly shoot themselves in the leg for (relatively) small kickbacks, they can't be surprised when they hit an artery.
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde
I guess I could see some merit in the article if you presuppose that I give a rats ass about bluray and that I thought that an uncontested bluray victory/monopoly would be good for such a young market. But I don't believe that, and I think the submitter is an idiot. Microsoft has a vested interest in HD-DVD's success... the XB360. They don't want to prolong the format war--they want Bluray to lose, because that disincentivizes the purchase of their competitor's product, the PS3, which is likewise hoping to see HD-DVD lose and, in fact, CREATED THE F'ING FORMAT. And, of course, Sony would never work out a financial arrangement whereby a studio or retailer only provides titles on Bluray! Oh wait... THERE OWN F'ING STUDIO provides Bluray exclusives. "blurayfanboi," indeed. Where does slashdot find such incredibly stupid people these days? I swear to God it's getting worse lately.
I don't care why Microsoft would support HD-DVD, I'm just glad that they do although the argument seems rather foolish because you could equally argue Sony are trying to fuel the HD-DVD war so that they can sell more PS3s and downloadable movies via their online store too.
The HD-DVD format whilst not perfect is much more consumer friendly in that it's cheaper, it's region free and it's backwards compatible to an extent.
In comparison Bluray suffers from being region locked, having much more unfriendly, more problematic DRM and doesn't support backwards compat. in DVD players.
A lot of people don't want HD-DVD to win because Microsoft are backing it, but I think Microsoft is the lesser of two evils in this case, the biggest bonus for me is the region free part, whilst this is probably largely useless for North American consumers who get films earlier and cheaper anyway for those of us in Europe this is immensly important, rather than paying £23.99 for a film we can import it for about £15 and often get it 6 months earlier. With Bluray you're stuck with your £23.99 cost and the 6 month delay between North American and European releases.
Sadly it may be too late, HD-DVD isn't holding up that well right now it would seem, for me personally if HD-DVD won I would buy an HD-DVD player because of the cheap import HD-DVDs I can buy but if Bluray won I'd go for online purchases of HD content for no other reason than I refuse to pay over £15 for a movie.
Grow up!
...it will be called Ballmer!: Cultural Materials of Media Formats for Make Benefit Glorious Corporation of Microsoft .
As much as I hate microsoft I don't actually see a problem here. ALl they're doing is encouraging market competition. (also, on the Reply page I'm writing on, there is a blu-ray ad. I find that funny)
It is Michael Bay who is ensuring that his BAD MOVIES hurt the overall market regardless of the their actual merit or popularity...
We apologise for the fault in this post. Those responsible have been sacked. -- Signed RICHARD M. NIXON
Fueling HD Wars for Make Benefit of Glorious Nation of Microsoft
Some people might speculate that the fact that the XBox360 is HD-DVD only could be a motivation for desiring that HD-DVD succeds. These people would say that it would be impossible for Microsoft to come to any agreement with Sony regarding offering Blu-Ray for the 360. The speculation could further be that neither Sony nor Microsoft intend to develop an even further next-generation hi-definition console or format in the near future, which would imply that a predominance of Blu-Ray films on the market would completely eradicate any possible motivation for buying an Xbox360 for its ability to play hi-definition films. Hence the thought might well be in those minds that spending on ensuring availability and prevalance of HD-DVD films could be a way of enabling the motivation of owning an Xbox360 for the hi-definition film ability.
This speculation refuted by the well-known fact that Microsoft is more evil than any other company and hence cannot have 'normal-evil' level motivations. I second the one that they simply want to destroy the market for physical discs.
That is Bay actually believes this he would stop investing so much in the format war and start investing in a massive and well thought out media download system. If microsoft is encouraging a (naturally viable) market, this is where they should focus their attention.
100 million??? Come on, get real, I doubt it. News flash: nobody cares. Most sane people will wait until there's a clear winner - if there is ever such a thing - or (like me) wait until there's an economically viable (read me: CHEAP) player that does both formats. I have a 52" LCD display just waiting for that day.
News flash 2: both formats have extremely high quality results. Great! Here's hoping they both continue to drive each other's prices down so we can all afford it.
Microsoft really can't do anything right, can they? First they got into a ton of trouble for attempting to help on HTML-browser implementation (their own) win — and the web-masters are still forced to maintain compatibility with completely different programs.
And now Microsoft is blasted for maintaining competition — between multiple formats, because forcing the DVD-authoring teams to make versions for various players is somehow "totally different".
Yes, I know, you'll claim, that "there should be one standard and multiple implementations". Well, if the standard is the high-quality TV-picture/sound (and who really cares for anything else?), than the BlueRay and HD-DVD can be considered just different implementations that should compete in perpetuity...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Microsoft want to kill off HD-DVD and Blu-Ray as quickly as possible, which is probably why the HD-DVD encryption key got leaked from the 360's HD-DVD drive. That was no mistake, just a very good cover up.
Once they start getting people to download movies instead of buying physical copies they will then ensure that they're the ones supplying the DRM encryption that will only work with their software.
Summation 2
The studios are killing themselves by taking this money, and I so don't care.
As for the people saying Microsoft is doing this to support the Xbox and for choice- get real. Microsoft gave the Xbox HD-DVD long after they had already chosen to support HD-DVD. When everyone was getting on the Blue-Ray wagon, Microsoft threw its support behind HD-DVD. There was only one reason- to create a protracted war that would destroy physical formats. Now they're throwing money to the studios to get more titles for no other reason than to further hurt PS3 sales. Microsoft does not care about anythign but money. They want market share and they want to run the show.
We have both formats, and use neither. They're old formats that we're quickly finding are not able to keep up with the future of media: digital transport. While I may be a video purist (and have been for over a decade), I am finding that more and more people don't care about getting the maximum quality out of their video system, and are pleased with just decent quality, even at high def. For most of my friends and family, simple SD-DVD upconverted to 1080i is enough to make them happy.
We've downloaded quite a few (mostly) legal HD videos off the net, and while they do take some time to download, the quality is impressive, considering the excessive compression of XViD or whatever codec is used to provide a high def video in a smaller file. We may be in the minority today with our media centers, but I'm seeing more and more people who are quite pleased with the quality of the newest HD TiVo, and are starting to move away from the DVD/disc format entirely.
The biggest two problems today are industry related: the big guns don't want digital transport, and few seem to be ready to jump on the on-demand bandwagon. There are numerous devices that can support on-demand downloadable HD movies, but even with the long download they are faster than NetFlix or the hassle of picking up and dropping off a rental. I still can't figure out WHY an industry is battling the obscure piracy problems, because it is obvious that there is no way to win that battle except to lower prices and increase options.
Yes, movies cost tens of millions to make, but there are over a hundred million households. Many are moving to HD (1080i/720p) flat panels, which are coming down in price. The cost of a TiVo-like box that plugs into your broadband router is negligible, and possibly offset by a monthly commitment to buying X HD movies a month (or a flat rate that includes X movies a month). The hardware is not that complicated, but it needs to be able to progress to using newer codecs as they're released. We have HDMI working fairly well as a video/audio transport, so cabling isn't a big issue (although I still use component for one device). Many households have broadband, so transport to the home is not a huge problem, considering that a 2GB file can be downloaded fairly quickly, even by bittorrent.
Yet the industry continues to try to hold on to old technology and standards, which are completely counterproductive for their growth. The movie theatre establishment is dying (or dead in some areas), and commercial-subsidized videos are also quickly falling apart. I know more people who to go YouTube to watch the news and oped pieces than deal with cable's scheduled service. Why is YouTube exploding, but Comcast is losing customers (or at least growing much slower than before)? Because people want a la carte, when they want it, and they don't want to deal with waiting for a show, storing hundreds of DVDs somewhere in their already cramped and cluttered living rooms, and trying to figure out which standard is better than the other one.
sell you. Seriously folks, this is funny on so many levels. First, how in the hell would this "Director" know anything about what Microsoft is doing on this topic? He's pulling this out of his ass. There is no way in hell that MSFT is writing $100 million checks to keep this "war" going. MSFT may have a lot of money but they're not famous for wasting it. Who would they write those checks to? Second, all the nonsense about "OMG - companies are fighting over formats!" is laughable. Of course companies disagree about which format is better - for them and for their customers. If anyone is surprised by that they're asleep. Sony certainly has an axe to grind on this topic, as does Apple and many many others. So what? Is that somehow "evil?" As a not totally unbiased observer I'll say that as long as the movie companies keep us firmly attached to the teat of the DVD and its successors, the longer the user is going to be paying for the same content over and over again. Eventually they'll need to realize that all-digital/downloadalbe content is the way to go. If I have to pay a little more to ensure that I can replace my copy if I lose it or if they offer a new version with better graphics sound I might do that. Or, I can just buy a downloadable copy one-time. But buying physical discs is going to go the way of the do-do eventually.
Alert the media - a business is spending money to further it's market strategy. Of course many will think this is ipso facto proof that MS is using its monopoly to further illegal ends, etc. Wrong. Obviously each side in a competing format situation will take all necessary steps to ensure that the format dooes not become irrelevant. How much did Sony do to protect Betamax? Every company siding with Blu-Ray or HD-DVD has made an investment and wants to further the technology. Cutting deals with movie studios to ensure that the format is represented on the latest releases seems like smart business. I do not see where MS is strong-arming the studios to not release Blu-ray formats but if the studio agrees to take money in return that is a simple business transaction.. Unless someone can show me that MS has undus influence in the entertainment industry somehow.
Oh Poo, you mean Big Bad MSFT is picking on little ol defensless Sony? Sony would never use any advantage it had to push BluRay!
Oh wait, I meant to write "senseless Sony".
Some of you seem to be forgetting... It has been demonstrated that Microsoft has something called a "monopoly" in operating systems and office software. When Microsoft uses cash reserves obtained from this monopoly to manipulate new, developing, or emerging markets, it could be deemed anticompetitive behaviour. To be clear, I don't think we're talking about the usual attempts to round up some support for a standard here... This seems to be going much further, not dissimilar to their recent attempts to get the new office XML format forced through ISO standardisation by stuffing the approval body with cronies. Microsoft are actually throwing large sums directly to studios in order to get the releases out on HD-DVD. I really find it difficult to believe that they can still get away with this sort of rubbish, and even more surprised that people don't really see it for what it really is!
This is something everyone should be used to by now... picking the less evil entity.
In this case, we've got Microsoft, universally derided on slashdot and elsewhere...so you might think the choice is clear.
But... against Michael Bay ?
My employment biases aside.. I'm going to have to support MS on this one. Whatever Michael Bay says he doesn't like must be a gem in an otherwise steaming pile.
The "Team America" movie didn't include a song about how awful Microsoft is.. but DID have several Michael Bay sucks references. That's a pretty compelling barometer.
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
If you follow the links back to the article or even as far back as his boards you'll find several references to "his stated preference for Blu-ray." Anyone who has seen both HD DVD and Blu-ray know that there really is no discernible difference! They use the same encoding and display the same picture. The only real difference is in Blu-ray's superior capacity which has yet to be taken advantage of. Doe he prefer Blu-ray over HD DVD because the Transformers special edition could have been packed onto 1 disc instead of 2? It can't be for economic reasons because then he should support both formats in order to maximize sales. It amazes me how much of this "format war" has been fueled by the consumers. I also saw several unanswered posts asking him why he preferred one over the other when noone can tell the difference. Hell, the original post over there that started this all can best be classified as flamebait.
I thought of a good way he can prove that MSFT is writing big checks. Show us a scan of one written to him. Maybe they convinced him to do Transformers in HDDVD?
Wait...did I just wake up in some kind of bizarro alternate universe where people actually debate the merits of something Michael Bay said?
I can't wait to see if my crap tastes like fudgecicles!
It's pretty pointless discussing why Microsoft might give Paramount $100M in advertising assistance if it's actually Toshiba that did it instead.
This rant from Bay is about as logical as the plots to his movies.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
Everyone misquotes that bible verse. Money isn't the root of all evil; money is simply a tool. The love of money is the root of all evil. The love of money is also the root of all bad software.
-mcgrew
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
HDDVD has too many Ds in it for my liking.
I put the 't' in electrical engineering.
They can write all the $100 Million checks they want.
I think online is the way to go. One it keeps telcom folks employed (good for geeks). It is also way better for the environment. Why should I have to drive to a big box store to buy a disk that was produced in another state and shipped 100's or 1000's of miles to my city? What a waste of energy and recourses. I'd rather have the high paying telcom jobs than the sales drone jobs at Big Box Inc.
However I'm likely to buy my video from Apple or Google before I buy from MS.
Think Deeply.
A "Strong Backer" of HD-DVD would have included a player in consoles by now, even as an optional model - not a side unit you have to buy.
That's exactly why it seems like Microsoft is backing HD-DVD ONLY to the degree that they keep the format war in play, to keep consumers away from either HD-DVD or, more importantly, Blu-Ray. And why behind the scenes they help fund payola to get companies to go format specific when it looked like Blu-Ray was winning too handily with a 70+% weekly market share of media sales (which BTW is still the case even after the switch).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Exactly, choice is when you have several solutions open to you which are different from one another. In the end you can choose the one that best fits your needs and it'll be due to it offering a different range of functionality and/or due to it being priced differently.
When it comes to Blu-ray and HD-DVD they're _exactly_ the same once you get past the different specs.
Hi-def video? Check
Hi-def/Lossless audio? Check
Media price? Same
Player price? Almost the same
Onerous DRM? Check
Sure, there are some differences, but an average consumer isn't going to be worried about the Blu-ray spec not being finalized or the media storage space. Functionality and price are the same.
So no, HD DVD isn't an alternative to Blu-ray, it _is_ Blu-ray. And vice versa. All you have to "choose" from is who you want to see receive royalty payments.
And by the way... greedy, DRM loving companies are sadly the only reason I'm not enjoying the recently released, and lovingly restored, Blade Runner in HD. Fuck. you.
Yes Microsoft is contributing to HD DVD, but it has nothing to do with down loadable content. Microsoft realizes that we will still have media for quite some time, people like to collect, people like to own. HD DVD has a mandatory feature called Managed Copy. Managed Copy allows you to make backup (with DRM) copies of movies you own to your computer. This is the primary reason Microsoft is backing HD DVD, they want consumers to be able to rip their HD DVD's to Windows Vista Media Centers, they want you to rip the disc to your Media Center and play it back from an Xbox. It makes perfect sense why MS would want to back that! Blu Ray has an optional feature, it's up to movie studios to decide to enable managed copy (and we all know - if it's optional many studios will disable it), with HD DVD it's required that it's enabled for every single release. The secondary reason is that Microsoft wrote some of the software for HD DVD and gets royalties on units sold.
Thanks for pointing this out, and correcting me. It sounds like Sony would still get the benefit of licensing fees
No, a neutral Blu-Ray forum gets the licensing fees. Sony makes money the old fashioned way, selling hardware and software (media).
Do you know why this (Java support) a big deal to Microsoft? It doesn't sound like there's any practical reason to me
Why don't know why but we know it's a big deal to Microsoft, because the only thing that stopped HD-DVD and Blu-Ray combining a few years back was the refusial of the Blu-Ray consortium to add iHD (Microsofts menuing format) into the Blu-Ray standard.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
are paying for HD-DVD backing. Or Zune placement. Or XBox360 adverts.
THAT is why MS meddling is unwanted. If there were competition (say, for example, they ALL support ODF as per spec) then the money either comes from the excessive profits (reducing profits and allowing competitors to undercut and retain the profit level) or it comes out of the shareholder payments/salaries, making MS less attratcive to buyers and workers. In any case, people would either move from MS itself or MS would lose marketshare.
With MS Office supporting only MS Office formats and nobody else being able to reproduce it at the same fidelity, people who use Office can't move away without cost. That cost is what MS can afford to overcharge their users for and use this money to pay for other areas whilst keeping profit levels and market share as high as the business expects. They can even charge more than this level as long as it is for less time than a switch takes.
Of course, if you're fine with paying MS for a zune placement in your Office licensing fees, you may disagree. You'd be a wally, but you'd disagree.
As long as Microsoft's practices are hurting distribution of Michael Bay films, I really don't see an issue.
Microsoft is encouraging NO choice to be made by consumers, by making sure that consumers are unsure which choice to make. It's just another form of FUD which Microsoft is well versed in as a tactic.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I'm sorry but the future belongs to HD downloads, where H.264 is already winning by a huge margin.
Wouldn't it be more correct to say that today's Betamax is the one where a single hardware maker supports the standard? With Blu-Ray you have players from Pioneer, Samsung, Sony, Panasonic, etc. With HD-DVD you have - Toshiba. Want an HD-DVD drive in a laptop? Hope you like Toshiba. Want a standalone player? That's Toshiba again. There's one or two other players that look like other people make them, but they are just re-badged Toshiba players.
Blu-Ray is the standard where a truly diverse group of companies are backing and defining the standard, HD-DVD is the rogue cowqboy here. Sony learned the market lessons of Betamax very well - it's Toshiba that's ignoring them.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
This "director" was responsible for this summer's #1 hit which became #1 best selling HD DVD title. Therefore I think he's in a slightly better position to know more about the background shenanigans behind why his movie is on one format and not another than you are.
Sony has a history of over-charging for the privilege of utilizing what they've "created" - it doesn't really matter which format is better - Sony will drive the price as high as they can and HD-DVD will prevail. Digi downloads will trudge along, but most people prefer to have media in-hand and that's not going to change anytime soon. The format war is not likely to actually be Microsoft's doing - conspiracies abound are largely unsubstantiated. I guess it's just "hate corporation day" again here on democratdot.
It has come up before, Bay isn't the first to point it out.
Microsoft owns the rights to a likely-to-be industry standard DRM for digital distribution. MS Wins when the world moves to digital distribution, and they have a vested interest in making sure that happens sooner rather than later.
From June of 2007:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=26216
The HD-DVD format whilst not perfect is much more consumer friendly in that it's cheaper
Combo discs cost $5 more than Blu-Ray discs, otherwise they are the same price. Silly consumer, when have prices ever been set by media costs?
it's region free
Blu-Ray titles are after a year. This is the only advantage... however the US and Japan being in the same Blu-Ray region, pretty much negates this concern for me.
and it's backwards compatible to an extent
You mean to the same extent Blu-Ray is? Blu-Ray players play DVD's too you know.
Also, how is a consumer format with almost half the space "more consumer friendly"?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
If M$ wants to write a check (another check?) to Wal-Mart so I can get a $98 HD-DVD player--completely subsidized by 5 free movies--then I'm all for that. Some free M$$$$$$$$$ coming my way for once...
Windows 3.1x calc: 3.11 - 3.10 = 0.00
As I said in my reply to my original, maybe he can send us a scan of their check to him for Transformers? ;)
Wow, lotta people flaming the guy. Does this mean TFA is flamebait?
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
Wait, let me get this straight. Microsoft, whose only provided HD drive is HD-DVD, is supporting HD-DVD because a convoluted plan to cause both formats to fail and have their download service reign triumphant?
Maybe there's a simpler plan in place at Microsoft. Support HD-DVD exclusives because that's the format we already are selling hardware for and we have a ridiculous amount of cash to throw around and anything that hurts our biggest potential competitor (Sony) is probably good for Msoft?
Nah, they couldn't possibly be supporting the only format they are shipping hardware for BECAUSE it's the only format they are currently shipping hardware for, that actual makes sense. It's much better to listen to Michael Bey, I mean, he's the guy who made Pearl Harbor, how could he possibly miss the mark?
You didn't hear the news then.
HD DVD Paid $150 million to Studios for "Promotional Consideration"
This payoff for Paramount exclusive support of HD-DVD (instead of Paramount's previous support of both HD formats) directly affected the release of Micheal Bay's big movie: Transformers.
Not a PR guy? No, of course not.
MS has been putting money into various companies. In particular, they are putting money into verizon to push FIOS. Think there is a connection?
into researching which one would be better long term I discovered Battlestar Galactica would only be on HD DVD
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
"doesn't want it to end up like all of Sony's other consumer device formats."
HD DVD isn't a Sony format, so don't compare it to the rest of Sony's range. If they cared about Sony's format lineup, they'd have invested in BluRay.
"HD-DVD is the format that its cash cow video game console system supports'
The 360 is not inherently tied to HD DVD. The addon merely adds the capability to play HD DVD. The reason WHY it's able to play HD DVD and not Blu Ray is what is in question here, but I think it's clear it has nothing to do with games, or the XBox 360 or any of its format requirements.
Next thing you know, someone is gonna tell us we have to go to the moon before the chinese do, just to tidy up the scene, because we really didn't go back in 1969.
That's how the Illuminati bankers took over the world!
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
1. Make awful movie 2. Lauch on HD-DVD only 3. Get $100m from Microsoft 4. Profit!! Oh wait, done before by Hollywood, sorry.
Timo's Audio Software http://www.esseraudio.com
who following the format war couldnt figure this out? nay, who aware of m$ tactics couldnt figure this out? people wonder where all the 'm$ hate' comes in, but talk about a naive group. this is the reason that when talk of m$ arises there are so many snide remarks, its the only proper tone to take with such a fascist company.
...Michael Bay is a bit of a fuck. I mean, regardless of what you think of his movies, just look at his recent history with the BluRay-vs-HD-DVD issue with Transformers, how he initially took a stand in terms of consumer choice, then folded like a cheap deck chair. So yeah. A bit of a fuck.
I have an XBOX360, two Zunes, and a windows mobile device, as do I have a tablet pc (With XP, since I haven't bothered upgrading). What I do not have is the HD-DVD player. My wife and I don't see the point to getting one in the near future. I love the Video Marketplace digital downloads of episodes. I have been getting all of the Numbers episodes and am about to plunk down $50 for an anime series I like. I usually setup two or three episodes to download at a time right before I go to work. The only issue I have is that I cannot buy a movie, I have to rent it, which is why my wife and I do not download movies from Marketplace. If they allowed the purchase of movies, then there would be no way we would ever get any of the HD media disk formats. It is just too much of a pain in the rear to deal with. Other services provide the ability to purchase a movie, such as Unbox, but I don't want to hook up a pc to the tv just to watch movies, especially since my wife would make it another pc and she hated our tivo (Tivo seemed to only replace the broken original with crappier ones).
In God we trust, all others require data.
I know Slashdot has sets the bar low on what constitutes news, but some asshat director dredging up a conspiracy theory as old as the formats themselves? Please.
Sony is only driving BluRay in order to help rescue kittens from trees and find ways to make cute puppies live forever! They have NO interest in driving more business based on BluRay sales.
specifically to remind me to wait when these little events happen in the industry.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Online distribution is only feasible if you have an Internet-enabled device connected to your HDTV.
Well, *network* enabled anyways. Online distribution does NOT require a "media centre PC", or any device that includes an ethernet port and speaks TCP/IP in fact. Where I live the cable company has something called "Shaw OnDemand" where you buy/rent/lease a digital terminal that plugs right into your usual coax cable. This isn't a "tuner+TiVO" thing--content is delivered real-time as you request it. Even so, standard digital TV with a TiVO is essentially "Online distribution" as well.
Sure, media center PCs are getting more common (and more affordable), and the numbers on HD-ready game consoles are steadily rising, but the vast majority of HDTV owners do not possess either
Not sure about your market, but I'd say that the alternatives I describe above, while combined might not be in the hands of more than 50% of HDTV owners yet, constitute a SUBSTANTIAL minority. It is definitely NOT true that the "VAST majority" of HTDV owners do not possess the gear to take advantage of online distribution, at least in the local market for me. In fact, I'd say OnDemand or digital-TV-with-TiVO already significantly outnumber both BD and HD-DVD. Since you only seem to examine HD-game-consoles vs. HTDVs your numbers really fail to look at the whole on-line picture.
Maybe in 10 years the tide will have turned and most people will be using online distribution. However, there's serious money to be made in the meantime, and that requires physical media.
I believe you are greatly over-estimating how long it'll take for on-line to catch on. It is quite a way from mainstraem yet, but I think it is actually ahead of BD and HD-DVD as far as momentum goes, and that we could see online distribution being mainstream in as soon as 5 years. Remembering how long it took DVD to gain critical mass it doesn't look very hopeful for physical HD media unless they resolve the problem. I think that BOTH physical formats will have a short life and be big failures compared to the original DVD format if the market stays the way it does. People remember Beta vs. VHS and how that limited market growth (and former Bets owners really remember getting burned) and history won't repeat quite the same way.
I foresee one of two scenarios that MUST happen or physical media will go extinct (in the mainstream at least):
1. HD-DVD will eventually kill BD. BD might be more advanced and have more capacity, but it is more complex to implement (the discs themselves, but especially the players) and so it started with a very bad cost disadvantage that it has to recify. No matter how many studios it has on its side, this cost problem, plus the fact that Microsoft and its allies (ie technology vendors that build the players vs the Hollywood studios) are in the HD-DVD camp mean a Betamax-like existence for BD (gradual slide into obscurity)
OR
2. Both competing formats are the same physical size and work under the same general principles (short-wavelength laser shot at a little plastic disc to read bits compressed using the same basic algorithms). VHS and Beta machines were so different that to make a device tha played both formats you'd basically have to house tow separate players in one giant enclosure. A dual-format BD/HD-DVD player would share almost ALL the physical components and it is basically no harder to make a laser pick up the bits from both formats than it is to make a DVD pick up data off a CD (which has been done for many years now). Thus, as the HD media technology matures, dual-format players will be only modestly more expensive to make and purchase than a BD-only player. The format war will then be as relevant to typical end users as the DVD-R/DVD+R argument is today.
I think that #2 will happen in the next few years because interested parties have invested so much into their pet technologies..and it'll happen within 5 years, or else both formats will be relegated to offline optical backup storage.
So sales from Sony TV's could only be put toward the playstationX if
a) every other manufacturer had the idea to prop up some other venture with the profits
b) the technical abilities were worth more to consumers but didn't COST Sony more
c) the manufactuting of TVs for Sony was cheaper than the manufacturing of TVs for Toshiba (et al)
If the Sony TV was $50 more expensive and the same "value" to the consumer and the ONLY reason for the difference was that the $50 went to their playstation division then there would be fewer purchasers of Sony TVs. If they upped the price to ensure the same subsidy, even fewer get sold and so on until
a) nobody is buying Sony TVs and they go out of business
b) they stop punting $50 into their PS division
Or did you WANT to give Sony more money?
Oh, and Smitty, it sounds like YOU don't know how businesses work. The PS/BluRay (if they ARE making a loss) are reducing the profits of Sony. Did you see MS posting reduced profits because the zune has bombed as has the XBox? No. Why? Because they upped the price of their monopoly products.
09 f9 11 02 9d 74 e3 5b d8 41 56 c5 63
As long as they insist on doing things for the good of Microsoft to the detriment of the industry and the consumers-- no, they can't do anything right. As long as their intent is to maintain and extend their monopoly, they are not doing anything right.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
Let me get this straight - Microsoft is paying movie studio execs to release movies on competing formats to fragment and destroy physical media. The only reason Microsoft cares about this is they want to become the sole distributor of movies via their online technologies.
AND STUDIO EXECS ARE BUYING INTO THIS? ARE THEY STUPID?
Look at the music industry - the iTunes store has become the standard by which music is distributed online and the music companies HATE it. By giving up control of the distribution, they also gave up control of pricing. The music studios wanted variable pricing in iTunes - Steve and Co. said "stick it where the sun don't shine". (OK Apple really didn't say that, but they might as well have.)
Now the movie execs are going to hand over distribution control to Microsoft for $100 million here and there? Someone should tell the movie studio execs that a Microsoft "partnership" almost always ends in an ass-reaming - and Microsoft isn't the one getting reamed.
Ask all Microsoft's "Plays for Sure" partners how well that turned out.
-ted
Yeah, right after I posted that first message I realized that I got it wrong, and immediately posted a new messaging making the correction. But thanks for mentioning it. And yes, I agree, the love of money is also the root of all bad software.
you are exactly right. as the rest of the verse states, the love of money is fueled by greed.
most folks don't realize that biblical "sin" is caring for oneself more than others. *all* the major problems in the world today are caused because people don't really care much about others. billionaires walk by homeless and starving children without a care beyond how to make another $100 million they will *never* be able to spend.
this is irrational, yet this is what *we* are. of course, we billionaires are just us with a billion dollars and our vanity wants us to believe they are bad never admitting that we'd be the same way in thei shoes. that's biblical vanity.
toyota corolla + feed starving childen or BMW and let the kids starve.
this choice is made every day and I don't need to tell you which choice wins, even if it requires going into massive debt.
being able to participate in a happy and productive eternity requires people to care for others EQUAL to themselves - which was jesus' big message. we've been FAILING ever since and ~270,000,000 died in the 20th century as a direct result of various wars.
mock the spaghetti monster in the sky all you want, but you can't mock the cause and effect LAWS that are in play.
You said it yourself, that's the HD-DVD consortium which, last I checked, has a lot more players than Microsoft.
-]Phreak Out[-
I can't speak to the speed of BD-J, though clearly this smacks of the "Java is slow" FUD that Java proponents have been dealing with for years now. Java VMs aren't really "slow" anymore, unless you're dealing with memory-constrained devices. Most Blu-Ray players are going to have plenty enough RAM, so I don't think constrained memory footprint is going to be an issue.
As for the "ill-specced" claim, I'm puzzled. I know that BD-J is based on an already existing standard for embedding interactive Java content in terrestrial television broadcasts and European cable transmissions; this technology is used, for example, in the German version of "Who Wants to be a Millionaire?" (or maybe it was "Deal or No Deal") -- it allows viewers to play along at home using their remote control. BD-J is just an extension of this already existing and deployed standard, so how is it poorly specified?
I attended JavaOne in 2006, and attended a couple sessions on BD-J and related technologies, so that's where I got my information from.
The story is basically the same either way. It's not about whether Microsoft did it by themselves or as part of a consortium.
HD DVD offers DVD backward compatibilty in two ways that BD can't
First, dual-sided discs. One side of HD DVD, and one of DVD, both full capacity. Lots of discs using this are in the market.
Second, mixing DVD and HD DVD layers on a single side of a disc. The disc can be two layers of HD DVD and one of DVD, or two of DVD and one of HD. That would allow studios to publish ALL DVD discs with 15 GB of HD DVD data, and not have to worry about any players being able to play the disc (even the PS3 could play the DVD layers).
BD uses a different thickness of substrate, so it's capable of either of those modes.
My video compression blog
The Nielsen numbers don't count the "free" discs that come with a player, since they aren't processed at retail. Lots of HD DVD players are bundled wih 5 or 10 free HD DVD titles, which the Neilson numbers don't capture, and which account for a substantial portion of the discs out there (the average PS3 user has only about 1 BD disc last I heard).
Of course, the studios who make decisions about format support know how many of their titles are getting bundled.
My video compression blog
I'm sorry, but at least, say, OOXML pretends to be open. Google for "OOXML Specification dowload" and the very first result has PDFs, linked to directly, not even so much as a free registration required.
I develop HD-DVD applications for a living. On my desk are four volumes of "DVD Specifications for High Definition VIDEO (HD DVD-Video)", totaling almost three inches thick. (I'd tell you how many pages, but the pages are not numbered.) There's probably another three and a half inches worth of updates, which someone else here has read and memorized, that I don't really look at.
We do not have these in electronic form. As far as I know, you cannot get them in electronic form, and they do not come with an index, which makes them a bitch to search until you start to memorize enough of it to have a vague idea of where to start randomly flipping through to find what you need.
This is because on every single page, at the bottom of the page, is the following notice:
"Open" and "public" my ass.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
The irony of all this is that the banner above this form reads "The Future is Blu... Visit Bluraydisc.com"
Don't forget, one good movie can make $100 million in a couple of weekends at the box office. I'm sure these execs make much more than that in one year after bonus time.
Sure, it's a nice chunk of change, but why sacrifice the company's future for a small short term gain?
Maybe the execs think it won't be an issue until they are long gone.
-ted
Um... both new game systems and even the wii are internet enabled. Welcome to 2006.
...to start backing Blu-Ray.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Why should I believe this guy? Do I have one other bit of evidence available to me?
.. don't care, I'll get a dual-format player.
I don't care if it's true or not, that's just a brilliant concept! Oh I wish I were in the position to do similar things. Maybe I am, I'll have to think. I certainly can't influence an entire industry, but maybe something smaller.
Yes Sony had a slower start, but is already seeing benefits from including a next gen storage system that games can use too, which initial games like Resistance, and now Ratchet and Drake show off. That difference will only grow with time... and in the meantime for more and more people Blu-Ray is a reason to buy the PS3.
So actually yes, it's worked out rather well and Microsoft is looking pretty dim for having EOL'ed the 360 about two years hence, just when they start to make a return on the vast losses that system has created.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Microsoft have many political reasons to dislike Java, but BD-J being a messy, ill-specced pile of slowness in comparison to iHD is a valid technical one.
Yeah, if you're Microsoft with the ol' NIH syndrome.
One thing that doesn't get covered much, though, is that BOTH formats support Microsoft's VC-1 codec, and so they get a cut of the money whichever format you buy. So they're probably not too desperately keen to see them kill each other leaving DVD to win regardless.
Guess which figure is greater - the amount of money Microsoft makes per player and per disc that uses VC-1 (which not all discs do as more of them are finally moving to h.264), or the amount Microsoft gets from a $8 Live download?
Doing the math, you can understand why Microsoft does just enough to keep the format war going while they grow online video downloads as fast as possible.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Which means they also all have h.264, which...
no, wait...
Ok, h.264 is apparently encumbered as well. I'm curious why it's so well supported by F/OSS, then -- moreso than VC1, apparently. And I'm curious about who owns those patents...
Regardless, it seems Microsoft is in it to make money, not only on the patent licensing, but also on their own hardware and software licensing. However, I'm not sure how much of that I'm supposed to know about, so I'll be deliberately vague and let you figure it out. Shouldn't be too hard.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
So even if his comments made sense (and they don't) I'm not sure how much weight I'd give them.
Downloadable content is ugly. Artifacts are everywhere. I've only got about 10 movies in HD (bluray), and after a while I get used to seeing it. I've gone back to watch some DVDs and even if I'm just comparing it to standard definition stuff on bluray, it looks ugly. If you watch it on a CRT 480i TV, you'll never see the difference, but on anything else, even 480p TVs, you notice that DVDs look ugly.
Now take downloadable content. The bitrate is higher, compression is better, but filesize remains about the same as what could fit on a DVD. It looks incredibly ugly. Look, if you're going to do HD, let's just get as high a bitrate as possible. I own all 3 consoles, and I don't care what plays what. I'm just in this for the best high definition experience. I even took bluray over HDDVD just because the bitrate for video is higher. I'm not going to do downloadable movies.
I'm not even a videophile or audiophile! I'm just tired of seeing blocks all over the place!
Twinstiq, game news
Companies ALWAYS make efforts for their own interest. That is WHY THEY EXIST!
No scandal here. Move along...