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Non-Competes As the DRM of Human Capital

An anonymous reader writes "Techdirt has an interesting look at how non-compete agreements are like DRM for people, doing just as much damage to innovation as DRM has done to the entertainment industry. It includes links to a lot of research to back up the premise, including some studies showing that Silicon Valley's success as compared to Boston's can be traced in part to the fact that California does not enforce non-compete agreements."

154 of 193 comments (clear)

  1. Warning: Unsafe redirect by sethstorm · · Score: 3, Informative

    Link leads to shock site.

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    1. Re:Warning: Unsafe redirect by Red+Flayer · · Score: 5, Funny

      That reminds me of the note I have taped to my monitor:

      Warning: Do not look into goatse with remaining eye.

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  2. Don't feed the competiton by cthulu_mt · · Score: 1, Insightful

    My contract prohibits me from engaging in the same business as my current employer for up to 5 years after termination. It makes perfect sense though; why fill my head with Trade secrets and methods just to have me open up shop across the street.
    Hell, that's how my boss got started. His employer didn't have a non-compete clause and he proceeded to run them out of business.
    Competition is the core of good Capitalism but nothing says you have to help your enemies.

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    1. Re:Don't feed the competiton by snaildarter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You're right; non-competes reduce competition. You're wrong about "nothing says you have to help your enemies," as we have numerous laws that say exactly that, like the CLEC system with telephone companies.

      The issue of trade secrets is a separate one from the issue of non-competes. Trade secret laws could still be enforced without the need for non-competes. Again, like the article says, look at the Silicon Valley vs. Boston thing.

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    2. Re:Don't feed the competiton by 4iedBandit · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My contract prohibits me from engaging in the same business as my current employer for up to 5 years after termination.

      So you can't use your expertise to make a living for 5 years? Or does you contract have your employer paying you severance for 5 years? I'm betting it doesn't. I'm also betting that your employer is happy with the knowledge that he doesn't have to pay you market, or give you decent benefits because if you leave you can't compete with him for 5 years. It's just another form of indentured servitude and you're a willing participant.

      Competition is the core of good Capitalism and you agreed not to. Oh yes that's great for your employer, no doubt about that.

      --
      "The avalanch has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote." -Kosh
    3. Re:Don't feed the competiton by UnknowingFool · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It makes perfect sense though; why fill my head with Trade secrets and methods just to have me open up shop across the street.
      Hell, that's how my boss got started. His employer didn't have a non-compete clause and he proceeded to run them out of business. Competition is the core of good Capitalism but nothing says you have to help your enemies.

      Whether you have a non-compete agreement with an employer or not does not address the issue of trade secrets. Unless your former employer gives explicit permission to share trade secrets, you can never share them with any other employer. Period. The same thing applies to source code. Now do people break that rule when they go to another company? Yes, it happens but they open themselves up to litigation. The question is whether non-competes harm innovation by placing an restriction on who can employed.

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    4. Re:Don't feed the competiton by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My contract prohibits me from engaging in the same business as my current employer for up to 5 years after termination. It makes perfect sense though; why fill my head with Trade secrets and methods just to have me open up shop across the street.

      That's their motivation for the non-compete: it's better for them. By the same token, not having a non-compete would be better for you, since you could easily turn around that argument saying "why should I fill their pockets with money just to have them lay me off in bad times". If it's OK for an employer to look after their own interests, then certainly it is OK for an employee, too.

      TFA, on the other hand, suggests that the practice of non-competes reduces overall innovation. So what's good for an individual employer is not necessarily best for society at large. So society might have an interest here in looking out for its own, also.

      nothing says you have to help your enemies.

      BTW, if you view your employees all as potential enemies, you might not be getting their best efforts.

      --
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    5. Re:Don't feed the competiton by sed+quid+in+infernos · · Score: 1

      "Whether you have a non-compete agreement with an employer or not does not address the issue of trade secrets. Unless your former employer gives explicit permission to share trade secrets, you can never share them with any other employer."

      Technically, this is true. However, without some explicit protection such as a confidentiality agreement, trade secrets don't exist, because taking reasonable means to protect the information is an element of trade secret formation.

      Some agreement with the employees who have access to information is almost certainly necessary to gain trade secret protection for that information. This agreement does not have to be a non-compete agreement.

    6. Re:Don't feed the competiton by cthulu_mt · · Score: 1

      So you can't use your expertise to make a living for 5 years? Or does you contract have your employer paying you severance for 5 years? Two different things. I've acquired many useful skills in the 2.5 years I've been here and they will help me in the future. My contract prohibits me from starting a company that does X*. I'm not a software engineeer or IT guy. My situation is more akin to PepsiCo prohibiting an employee from starting their own soda comapny.
      I won't get a severance, but I do get paid very well, with benefits.

      *Sorry, confidential.
      --
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    7. Re:Don't feed the competiton by 4iedBandit · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It prevents me from working on a project for years and learning about The Next Best Thing and then running to the competition.

      I don't normally pay attention to anonymous cowards, but in this case it deserves a response.

      What this contract really prevents is your employer keeping you happy and on the job. Does your contract guarantee your benefit plan? Your retirement plan? Cost of living minimum yearly raises? Severance should you be released?

      A fair contract is one that benefits both parties. A non-compete only benefits the employee if they get something in return for the duration of the non-compete. If the contract only protects the companies interests then your interests are being thrown out the door. Don't accept their word that they will "do the right thing." If it's not in writing they don't have to and most likely won't.

      --
      "The avalanch has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote." -Kosh
    8. Re:Don't feed the competiton by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      And is your job core to that business? Or do you do something that's ancillary to the core business of your employer?
      Or to put it another way, do you think that, with your skillset, you could earn the same or more more working somewhere else that isn't in the same line of business?

      If not, then your screwed. Your current company can hold you to ransom, if you decide to leave you can't work in the industry you are trained for and have experience in, you have to do something else for which your not trained, which means you have to start at a lower level earning less money.

      Some countries make non compete clauses illegal and unenforceable, but at the very least an employer should be required to compensate you for the duration of any such contract that inhibits your ability to earn a similar or higher wage.

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    9. Re:Don't feed the competiton by Solandri · · Score: 1

      Hell, that's how my boss got started. His employer didn't have a non-compete clause and he proceeded to run them out of business. Competition is the core of good Capitalism but nothing says you have to help your enemies.
      You're making an incorrect jump in your reasoning, that if the action is beneficial for individual party, it must be beneficial for all parties as a whole. That's not always true. It's possible to have situations where if all individuals choose the action most beneficial to themselves, everyone can arrive at a worse situation than if they had made sub-optimal choices.

      That's what the article is claiming - that although non-competes give the appearance of benefiting the individual companies, they harmed Boston's tech industry as a whole to the point where it fell behind the same industry in Silicon Valley. In other words, the competition in Silicon Valley which forced companies to "help their enemies" as you put it actually produced better results.

    10. Re:Don't feed the competiton by tepples · · Score: 1

      Trade secret laws could still be enforced without the need for non-competes. But given the inevitable disclosure doctrine (use Google if you're not familiar), a lot of states apply a non-compete interpretation to non-disclosure agreements.
    11. Re:Don't feed the competiton by tepples · · Score: 1

      A non-compete only benefits the employee if they get something in return for the duration of the non-compete.

      What the employee gets in return for a non-compete agreement is a job. This offers the opportunity to earn and save money while employed, in order to be able to live off the savings during the term of the covenant not to compete.

      </devils-advocate>

    12. Re:Don't feed the competiton by arivanov · · Score: 1

      In most of Europe (except surprise, surprise, UK) for this to be enforceable they have to pay you for 5 years your normal salary. Nobody in his sane mind does that so nobody tries to put mad clauses about non-compete into contracts. UK is once again one of the few significant exemptions.

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    13. Re:Don't feed the competiton by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Maybe. Probably not.

      The problem is if I hire a developer that comes from a company with a competing product it is highly unlikely the company I hired him away from is going to be able to actually claim something new is the result of "trade secrets" that the developer brought (illegally?) with him. Where would you go to get any sort of evidence of this?

      Now, if there is a non-compete agreement that I knowingly violate by hiring the developer, I am putting my company and the developer in trouble. There isn't any need to collect evidence - it is pretty obvious what is going on.

      No, I don't think you are going to get very far trying to find trade secrets being shared improperly. Customer lists, maybe but even that is questionable.

    14. Re:Don't feed the competiton by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      My non compete states that I can not work for the competition for 6 months. The competition is basically anyone in the semiconductor industry. I thought that was un-equitable, seeing as I was getting very little in exchange for 6 months of unemployability, so I re-negotiated. I now stay on payroll till they decide I am no longer in possession of trade secrets then will let me go without any non-compete. In a nutshell:
      If I leave: 6 month non-compete
      If they tell me to leave: 6 month non-compete and 6 months pay + benefits. Realistically I expect they would keep me on staff but transition me to non-technical jobs (facilities support, purchasing, etc.) for the duration of the 6 months.
      -nB

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    15. Re:Don't feed the competiton by vidarh · · Score: 1

      If so you should expect a significantly higher salary when in jobs with a non-compete. I've yet to see companies asking for non-competes offering a higher salary than those who don't, though I'm sure it happens in some cases.

    16. Re:Don't feed the competiton by Alsee · · Score: 2, Informative

      TFA, on the other hand, suggests that the practice of non-competes reduces overall innovation. So what's good for an individual employer is not necessarily best for society at large.

      It's not even necessarily good for an employer, however much he thinks he wants it.

      An employer wants a non-compete to cut off harmful "outflow" of value. However if the practice of non-competes is legally enforced, then by definition it also cuts off his own beneficial inflow of value. And the direct benefit to an employer of any inflow value is almost always going to be larger than the diffuse indirect negative impact to the employer from outflow.

      So in a state that enforces non-competes, yes an employer may have a selfish interest in trying to impose non-competes on their employees. However the practice itself is not good for the employer, and in fact leaves him at a disadvantage relative to companies in other states that do not enforce non-competes, leaves him at a disadvantage to companies that do benefit from inflow. In the same way that Boston's Route 128 tech center (subject to non-competes) was trounced by Silicon Valley and California's non-enforcement of non-competes.

      So the employer's short view interest may be in pushing non-competes for his employees, but his true interest is in opposing the practice itself and opposing state enforcement of the practice.

      Kinda like a politician who accepts corporate campaign contributions, and says he will (and who does) vote to prohibit corporate campaign contributions every chance he gets.

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    17. Re:Don't feed the competiton by kcdoodle · · Score: 1

      If your company make gas turbine engines, then you can't work for another company that makes gas turbine engines.

      If you are a programmer, this is rarely a problem.

      If you are a mechanical engineer who specializes in gas turbine engine design, this is a big problem.

      Being a programmer, this has never been a problem, but I still will not work for a company who makes me sign such an agreement. Good programmers can find good jobs nearly anywhere.

      I have worked in the power industry, telcoms, universities, banks, government, web hosting, and more, never the same thing twice. (It's more fun that way.)

      --

      - I live the greatest adventure anyone could possibly desire. - Tosk the Hunted
    18. Re:Don't feed the competiton by j987123 · · Score: 1

      IA companies trade secrets are going to be protected one way or another. For example, I believe California has very strong trade secret protection but IANAL.

      The biggest problem I see with non-competes is they stifle innovation. An employee may have good innovative ideas to which management is unreceptive. With a rigorously enforced non-compete agreement the employee is stuck. However, in a state that does not enforce non-compete agreements the employee can take is innovation to a company willing to develop it.

    19. Re:Don't feed the competiton by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      Everyone I've ever known who has worked as a professional in any field signed a confidentiality agreement as a condition of employment on or before their start date.

    20. Re:Don't feed the competiton by celle · · Score: 1

      By that definition everyone is your enemy. If that's what you're afraid of, maybe you shouldn't make him your enemy then and keep him from becoming one.

    21. Re:Don't feed the competiton by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      One issue is that some employers will label everything as a trade secret when it is more like an operating procedure. An example of a true trade secret would be the recipe for Coca-Cola. An administrative assistant at Coca-Cola offered to sell Pepsi the recipe as well as other confidential information. Now Pepsi could have paid the money and gotten their hands on their rival's most cherished secrets. However, the risk of litigation may have outweighed the benefits to them, and they instead contacted contacted Coca-Cola about the offer. The FBI was brought in and everyone involved was arrested.

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    22. Re:Don't feed the competiton by Atrox666 · · Score: 1

      Non-Competes are a joke.
      I'm not a lawyer. I'm a productive member of society but he's my two cents(CAD)
      I've never seen one ever get to court let alone stand up in court.
      Then again I'm not in the US.
      The ability to work for the competition is called an open market for labour.
      Companies love the open market when it works in their favour but when it means they have to pay fair wages it starts to be talked about like some kind of communism.
      This problem will simply never be solved without body count.
      When our corporate overlords are swinging by their necks then we will have justice not one second before.

    23. Re:Don't feed the competiton by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      Sure, but then have the contract appropriately scoped.

      For example, my reading of the non-compete at Microsoft was simple: If you were an Office developer, and you went to Sun to add MS OfficeOpenXML to StarOffice, then that would be a problem. If OTOH, you went to work at IBM building new features for the Linux kernel that would be OK. If the contract distinguishes between using your employer's trade secrets and working for the competition that is one thing. If it doesn't then it is a form of servitude.

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    24. Re:Don't feed the competiton by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      A non-compete only benefits the employee if they get something in return for the duration of the non-compete.

      What the employee gets in return for a non-compete agreement is a job. This offers the opportunity to earn and save money while employed, in order to be able to live off the savings during the term of the covenant not to compete.

      </devils-advocate>

      What the employee gets for the non-compete agreement is nothing at all. The salary and benefits are in exchange for the work performed.
    25. Re:Don't feed the competiton by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      Responsible non-competes only attempt to enforce trade secret protection. For example, you may not go to work for a company which competes with us for a period of six months after your employment here if your role at that company would be likely to cause you to use trade secrets you had access to with us.

      Note the conditional. Absent the conditional, it is a problem. With the conditional, it is *just* a form of trade secret protection.

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    26. Re:Don't feed the competiton by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      If the contract only protects the companies interests then your interests are being thrown out the door.
      Exactly. If they place a "no payment or any other kind of reimbursement" clause, you should probably run.
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    27. Re:Don't feed the competiton by rajafarian · · Score: 1

      Hell, that's how my boss got started. His employer didn't have a non-compete clause and he proceeded to run them out of business.

      Assuming that your boss ran his employer out of business by running a better business and not being a jerk like Bill Gates, if your boss never gave feedback to his boss as to how he could improve his business then your boss sucks. If your boss tried to give his boss feedback on how he could improve his business but his boss didn't listen... isn't capitalism great?

    28. Re:Don't feed the competiton by hauntingthunder · · Score: 1

      5 years

      dont think that would stand up in court still if they agreed to pay you 5 years salery whist in gardening leave.

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    29. Re:Don't feed the competiton by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      why are you obligated to help your boss be a better boss? It's usually a good ida, but it isn't mandatory.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    30. Re:Don't feed the competiton by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Coca Cola is a bad example. Coca Cola are where they are because of other things.

      There's nothing great about their recipe. They've changed many times anyway, and apparently they made it crap in the USA (corn syrup instead of real sugar).

      So unless there's something _damning_ in their recipe (illegal substances etc), it doesn't matter.

      They can just claim it was a decoy formula that got stolen, and so keep the "mystery" safe which is part of their brand.

      --
    31. Re:Don't feed the competiton by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Also there are people who:
      1) Have brains and can read amongst other valuable skills
      2) Actually read and understand the terms of employment contracts and their implications
      3) Have integrity and would uphold contracts they signed
      4) Aren't that desperate for a job.

      If your contracts suck, you're not going to get those.

      Same goes for contracts which state "The Company will own all of your ideas - past, present, future".

      No problem signing for people who can't come up with a single great idea in the first place :).

      You pay me, I'll write code, build stuff for you and you can have full rights to that. BUT I'm going to keep rights to my libraries and stuff- they're my toolbox. Don't expect me to walk in your company with my toolbox and leave without it. I'm even fine with you having a copy of my toolbox and using it for other stuff. No problem as long as I get to do what I want with mine.

      Don't like it? Go hire someone stupid or sloppy or someone who can be "bought" easily.

      --
    32. Re:Don't feed the competiton by Grant_Watson · · Score: 1

      No, the first $5.15 or so an hour of that is in exchange for the work performed. Anything on top of that is in exchange for the non-compete.

      That's ridiculous. What kind of executives or programmers or engineers can you hire for $5.15, just because you omit a noncompete?

    33. Re:Don't feed the competiton by Eivind+Eklund · · Score: 1

      My contract prohibits me from engaging in the same business as my current employer for up to 5 years after termination.

      So you can't use your expertise to make a living for 5 years? Or does you contract have your employer paying you severance for 5 years?

      Norway (where I live) has an interesting variant of this: Non-competes are enforceable, but ONLY if the former employer pay you full salary (including benefit) for the non-compete period. I know of only one company that has actually done this in practice - it led to some friends of mine getting a year off with full pay. ("You say we get a year of vacation with pay if we resign and start working for XXX? Damn, that just was a good offer.")

      Eivind.

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    34. Re:Don't feed the competiton by Alsee · · Score: 1

      We're not really disagreeing on anything, but I did want to give my personal view on something:

      Have integrity and would uphold contracts they signed

      My personal definition/application of integrity has absolutely no problem with informing them that I do not believe a particular clause is legally valid and that I do not believe a court will uphold it and possibly note that as a comment in the margin of the contract, and then proceed to sign it.

      My opinion of a company knowingly pushing invalid clauses in their contracts would be lowered, but for myself I have no problem not intending to respect a clause that I know is invalid if the other party knows that I have no such intention of respecting it.

      Of course the state we were in (say California vs Mass) would have a relevant bearing upon such a situation.

      -

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    35. Re:Don't feed the competiton by TheLink · · Score: 1

      You could strike the offending clauses out, sign and send it back to them. If they still agree no prob then. Don't be surprised if most of the time the bosses etc don't care (it's just put in there by "Legal", and often from copying some "cookie cutter" doc).

      I've had some even agree that its unfair - "Yeah that sucks, strike that out then".

      --
  3. Dawn of understanding by WoodstockJeff · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Non-compete has existed for decades, long before DRM. It would make a lot more sense to reverse the comparison, but some people have no concept of what came before their own awakening to the ways of the world...

    1. Re:Dawn of understanding by jesdynf · · Score: 1

      But DRM is understood to be worthless, contemptible, and without value. Now that we've come to an understanding about that, it could be considered worthwhile to compare it to other things that exist, to see if our new understanding about one aspect of our world has any implications on other aspects of it. So the comparison is working in the right direction after all.

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    2. Re:Dawn of understanding by bishiraver · · Score: 1

      Seriously. The reason it took Morimoto a long time to open up a restaurant in NYC was because his former restaurant (for which he was not the head chef) had a non-compete clause. He could not open up a restaurant within NYC for a specified number of years. So he opened his flagship restaurant in Philadelphia, and only recently has opened up a restaurant in NYC.

    3. Re:Dawn of understanding by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Right...
      We should only use examples and ideas about cars to think about and say things about rocket ships.
      We can never use examples and ideas about rocket ships to ever say anything new about cars.

      Sheesh, kids these days don't even know cars existed before rocket ships.

      -

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  4. Re:Why not.. by daninspokane · · Score: 2, Funny

    The company I work for made me sign an agreement before I was hired. Anything I do or create belongs to them while I am at work or even if I create something that deals with my industry on my own time, it's theirs. This post...yea... belongs to them.

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  5. Florida by Jaysyn · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Florida is great. I'd have to actually leave & take my current employer's customers with me for them to have any chance of enforcing a non-compete here. I think this holds true in most right-to-work states.

    --
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    1. Re:Florida by ShawnCplus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't think it's defined per state. My non-compete says that I can't solicit any of their clients for 2 years for any work. As long as I don't snatch up someone they've been working with the non-compete doesn't inhibit any of my actions.

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    2. Re:Florida by negative3 · · Score: 2, Informative

      How does right-to-work laws apply to non-compete agreements? To quote wikipedia, right-to-work laws "prohibit agreements between trade unions and employers making membership or payment of union dues or 'fees' a condition of employment, either before or after hire." Unless Florida has added more to the concept of a right-to-work law.

      --
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    3. Re:Florida by phantomcircuit · · Score: 1

      He is saying that state law supersedes the contract, not that the contract only applies within his state.

    4. Re:Florida by Alsee · · Score: 1

      I don't think it's defined per state.

      Yes, state by state.
      Some states will enforce non-compete clauses, others will not (on the basis that an employer cannot deny you the right to make a living in your skilled profession, rendering the non-compete clause null and void).

      I'm not an expert in the subject, but a do not "solicit any of their clients for 2 years" is less severe than some other non-compete contracts, and that clause might be upheld in some cases and in some states that might nullify a contract which more severely hindered your living in your profession. A contract which said you could not work for any competitor of Microsoft for X years would pretty much ban you entirely from any living in the entire software industry. A world-class PhD programmer would be rendered totally unskilled and unemployable as anything above a would-you-like-fries-with-that burger flipper.

      -

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    5. Re:Florida by Jaysyn · · Score: 1

      Good catch. Replace all instances of "right-to-work" with "at-will employment" & it will be correct.

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  6. Non-compete by canuck57 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I really don't have a problem with extened non-competes with in some limits.

    But then the company also has to pay your wages in full during the non-compete period and a generous severance beyond that period.

    That is, you allegiance or commitment to any non-compete ends when the pay cheque ends.

    1. Re:Non-compete by swillden · · Score: 1

      But then the company also has to pay your wages in full during the non-compete period and a generous severance beyond that period.

      That's going a bit far. If you quit, why should they pay you severance? The wages during the non-compete period I could see, but what's to prevent an employee from quitting specifically to exploit this? Hot dog! My employer had me sign a four-year non-compete agreement, time for me to go get a master's degree!

      Your suggestion is not well thought-out, unless your purpose is really to say "non-competes are okay as long as we make sure that no sane company would ever ask anyone to sign one".

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    2. Re:Non-compete by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      And no sane person would ever sign one...
      I mean you work in a given industry doing a given job, if you move companies chances are your going to be doing the same or a similar job because thats where your skill set lies. A no compete clause, if even enforceable (they are illegal in some countries, restriction of trade) basically prevents you getting a job doing whatever it is you do for the duration of the clause.
      Therefore, an employer making you sign such an agreement should have an obligation to pay you for that time your unable to work, tho they could be free to do something else for that time providing it's not overly demanding (relative to your actual job) or demeaning etc..

      The idea that a company can say "when you leave us, you cant do the job your trained for and skilled at for a year, you'l have to do an unskilled job for a year on minimum wage" is ridiculous.

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    3. Re:Non-compete by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      There's no sane reason to take away someones way to make money.

      The only response to that is by a non-compete reversal: If the company deems that you are too valuable, they SHOULD pay you to not work. After all, it is a contract, which means for a certain loss, there almost always is the opposite gain in another way.

      It really comes down to this: Lump it or leave it.

      --
    4. Re:Non-compete by canuck57 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your suggestion is not well thought-out, unless your purpose is really to say "non-competes are okay as long as we make sure that no sane company would ever ask anyone to sign one".

      Having been under a few, and had to fight one, and won with prejudice I can can say most non-competes are rope around your neck documents. Often they want you to sign after accepting the job or change rules 3 years into employment. Puts people in the situation of having to comply or be on the outs. Fortunately where I live, an employer can try to do this but a judge wouldn't even hear of it as if not signed with or before the offer, unless in the employees favor - it legally has no value.

      Employers want the right to fire, I have no problem with this. Really, I am for employer and employee rights. Both sides. But when an employee is restricted in practicing his skills for another employer, then the former has to pay his bench time or forget about it. That is, no one can stand in front of a persons right to practice their legal profession unless they are going to put their money where their mouth is.

    5. Re:Non-compete by apt142 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's going a bit far. If you quit, why should they pay you severance? The wages during the non-compete period I could see, but what's to prevent an employee from quitting specifically to exploit this? Hot dog! My employer had me sign a four-year non-compete agreement, time for me to go get a master's degree!
      I don't see a problem with people exploiting this. After they've done it enough times, it'll become obvious that they are a scammer and then will become either non-employable or unfit to work with trade secrets. With this heavy of a penalty on companies who insist on non-competes then they'll really put the investment up front to look into things like this. They'll also not throw them around so frivolously.

      If you have a non-compete clause on you, you obviously are (or damn well should be) doing something that's important to the company's intellectual property. If so, the company should treat you well and respect you for being in such a position.

      Also, if a company wants to prevent me from using my IT knowledge for 5 years, they had better damn well pay me. Five years in computing is a long, long time. If after those 5 years I want to return to the field, I'm going to need education, certifications, etc. to make up for the lost field experience and to get me up to date.
    6. Re:Non-compete by zotz · · Score: 1

      "I mean you work in a given industry doing a given job, if you move companies chances are your going to be doing the same or a similar job because thats where your skill set lies."

      Hey! You wanna join the band as drummer? Sure, here, sign this non-compete.

      You mean I can't work as a drummer anywhere for 5 years if you kick me out of the band or if it doesn't work out and I leave?

      Right! Everyone does it!

      all the best,

      drew

      --
      FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
    7. Re:Non-compete by Alsee · · Score: 1

      The only response to that is by a non-compete reversal

      Lets see... yada yada yada.... according to this clause if I am terminated or I quit I cannot do this same job working for someone else for the next X years. OKEY DOKEY! No problem! I'll sign it right away, I'll just add this other clause in here:
      If I am terminated or I quit then your company cannot hire any other programmer during said term.

      Okay, I've signed it. Now you sign it too and we've got a contract.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    8. Re:Non-compete by AusIV · · Score: 1
      I think it's reasonable for a company to have a contract that is a non-compete if the employee decides to leave and a non-compete + compensation if the employer dismisses them. It isn't reasonable that an employee should be able to get a job for a few months, then quit and have the employer pay them for years because of the non-compete agreement. If an employee in a non-compete decides to leave, presumably they have something else in mind.


      On the other hand if the employer dismisses the employee, they can't reasonably tell you that the non-compete resigns you to unskilled labor for the next several years.

      That would give way too much power to the employer. It could become "You have to work 20 hours a week more for the same amount of pay, but if you leave you'll be lucky to find $10/hr," or "We're doing away with health benefits, but since you signed a non-compete, it's more affordable to pay for your own health insurance than take a lower paying job with health insurance."

      I can see a 6 month non-compete, but anything longer than that and the employer should have to pay employees not to work for a competitor unless they employee left on their own terms.

    9. Re:Non-compete by Shajenko42 · · Score: 1

      I think it's reasonable for a company to have a contract that is a non-compete if the employee decides to leave and a non-compete + compensation if the employer dismisses them.
      If they do this, they'll never fire the employee. They'll simply make the employee's life hell until he quits - no real difference.
    10. Re:Non-compete by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      It isn't reasonable that an employee should be able to get a job for a few months, then quit and have the employer pay them for years because of the non-compete agreement.

      So make it cancellable by the employer or restrict it to some reasonable time limit. How much can the new guy learn in 3 months?

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    11. Re:Non-compete by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Exactly, so all your drumming training and experience goes to waste, you have to stack shelves for the next 5 years.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    12. Re:Non-compete by swillden · · Score: 1

      The idea that a company can say "when you leave us, you cant do the job your trained for and skilled at for a year, you'l have to do an unskilled job for a year on minimum wage" is ridiculous.

      Yes, it is, which is why no non-compete agreement says that. Courts would say it's ridiculous and throw it out, even in MA.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  7. Don't sign them! by FredDC · · Score: 3, Insightful

    DRM ? Don't buy it!
    Non-compete? Don't sign it!

    It's that simple... If a company wants you to sign such an agreement, it says alot about the corporate culture of that company. It means management thinks it completely owns the people who work for them.

    It could also mean some people have already left the company to work for competitors and they're trying to protect themselves from this happening again. That tells me it's probably not a nice place to work at, if people leave to go and do the exact same job somewhere else!

    --
    09 f9 11 02 9d 74 e3 5b d8 41 56 c5 63
    1. Re:Don't sign them! by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      Most non-compete agreements are an HR issue more than a real management initiative. Having been on both sides of the argument, up close and personal, I have to say that I prefer California's interpretation. At-will employment and non-compete agreements have no place together.

      Now, if an employer and employee have the expectation that it is a lifetime engagement and not something terminated at the whim of a quarterly profit projection, a non-compete agreement is much more logical. Not a whole lot of individuals or companies are in this position today.

    2. Re:Don't sign them! by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      DRM ? Don't buy it! Non-compete? Don't sign it!
      And then, if all "intellectual property" that is sold is DRMed, and all jobs require you to sign a non-compete, you're screwed.
    3. Re:Don't sign them! by attam · · Score: 1

      "dont sign" is not always an option. my first job out of school was at a proprietary trading firm where we did not have non-competes. at the end of my second year, we were presented non-compete forms which we were REQUIRED to sign in order to have our bonuses disclosed to us. in that industry, your bonus can be anywhere from 50-90% (or more) of your total pay, so I would have been forgoing a lot of cash by not signing. pretty much extortion, yes, but thats the biz.

    4. Re:Don't sign them! by Tim+C · · Score: 1

      They can force you to sign a contract, and that contract is still binding? *And* it was back-dated? That right there is your first problem. The fact that they did it is just icing on the cake.

    5. Re:Don't sign them! by Snocone · · Score: 1

      Here in British Columbia the courts have held that a signed non-compete agreement can only be enforced for as long as the company pays the full termination salary of the non-competee. If they won't pony that up, then they can't stop you earning a living with your skills as you see fit.

      Far as I'm concerned, that's the PERFECT legal interpretation of a non-compete agreement. You can pay me full salary to do nothing, or you can piss off and stay out of my way; hey, sure, take your pick, ex-boss!

    6. Re:Don't sign them! by piojo · · Score: 1

      It's that simple... If a company wants you to sign such an agreement, it says alot about the corporate culture of that company. It means management thinks it completely owns the people who work for them. This seems rather naive. Do you think that "every man has a price"? If so, a non-compete prevents a more powerful company from buying your people and your secrets. And don't go telling me that companies don't have a right to attempt to keep trade secrets--you want companies to make money. If they don't make money, you can't buy their nice stuff.

      It could also mean some people have already left the company to work for competitors and they're trying to protect themselves from this happening again. That tells me it's probably not a nice place to work at, if people leave to go and do the exact same job somewhere else! You've never seen someone seduced into leaving one company for another to gain a more secure future and more resources. I'm not saying the guy I know shouldn't have left, or that that the smaller company should have prevented him from leaving (it's complicated), but the first company was by no means a shitty place to work!

      --
      A cat can't teach a dog to bark.
  8. There is a mechanism for this to work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    In his book, 'The Innovator's Dilemma' http://www.businessweek.com/chapter/christensen.htm , Clayton Christensen points out that disruptive technologies often/usually are invented by large entrenched companies. They can't take advantage of the technology because their business practices prevent it. It makes sense that an employee, familiar with the work, would start a company that could take advantage of the new technology.

    Viewed in this light, the old entrenched companies are the dog in the manger. They can't take advantage of the technology they invented, because they can't make enough money on it to cover their overhead, but they sure don't want anyone else to develop it. Non-compete contracts are one way to make sure that doesn't happen.

    1. Re:There is a mechanism for this to work by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 1

      They can't take advantage of the technology they invented, because they can't make enough money on it to cover their overhead, but they sure don't want anyone else to develop it. Non-compete contracts are one way to make sure that doesn't happen.

      And software patents are another.
    2. Re:There is a mechanism for this to work by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      I think that once a project is abandoned, it should no longer qualify for trade secret protection. However, this does not mean that one should, say, work on a new technology and then take what you built for your employer in order to go into business for yourself unless it is pretty clearly cancelled first. There are some basic ethics involved :-)

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
  9. That's the big difference by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

    Exactly. The fundamental difference between non-compete clauses in employment contracts and DRM is that in most jurisdictions, one of them usually doesn't hold up in law when it matters, while unfortunately the other one apparently does.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  10. Re:Why not.. by ByOhTek · · Score: 2, Funny

    Apparantly my employer requires everything I make (software-wise) for them be public domain. I'm not sure if it covers my off hours as well. I like my employer better.

    --
    Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
  11. drm, retarded patents, noncompetes... by circletimessquare · · Score: 1, Insightful

    it's all an example of the corporatization of our creativity and our culture

    it's sort of the opposite of communism, where it was believed that by expelling selfishness as a motiviation in life, all will be enriched. when in reality, communism just makes all of society as poor as its poorest member, as selfishness is a motivation to succeed and do better, and this enriches society in indirect ways

    meanwhile, business law thinkers know that innovation is the wellspring of all of their profits. so the idea is to lock in the wellspring of creativity at earlier stages, so as to ride the wave to greater and greater financial success later

    but actually, locking the wellspring of innovation at earlier and earlier stages has the perverse effect of killing the wellspring of innovation

    so much like the paradoxical dichotomy that ruins communism (that selfish behavior leads to rich societies), there is a paradoxical dichotomy at work when it comes to business, the law, open culture, and creativity: if you let innovation proceed freely, it will enrich your business more in indirect ways than if you try to cage it

    itr's counterintuitive, and it goes against the human desire to control things, even that which they cannot control, and if they just stopped trying to control it, they would actually be richer, figuratively and literally

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:drm, retarded patents, noncompetes... by aadvancedGIR · · Score: 1

      Absolutely, moreover, if you manage your capitalistic corporation in a communist way (everyone except the leaders get crappy pay, and they better have to thank us), people either don't want to innovate or don't work to innovate FOR YOU.

      As said by Gibbons in Office Space: "It's a problem of motivation, all right? Now if I work my ass off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don't see another dime; so where's the motivation?"

  12. Hear! Hear! by Per+Abrahamsen · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That non-compete agreements are damaging is well known to anyone with any economic understanding, a market economy is based on competition. If you take that away, you are left with something as even worse than the old communist economies. A planed economy without the planning part.

    Whether you call it anti-compete agreements, guilds, trusts, or five year plans, the result is the same. Short time gains for a few, long time economic stagnation for everybody.

    Anyone wanting the state to enforce non-compete agreements is either deeply corrupt, or deeply incompetent. There is no third possibility.

    The economic case against DRM is far less clear cut. The strongest arguments against DRM are not economic, but moral, and concerns the loss of consumer rights. And are as such much weaker, going against economic theory is just stupid, going against a specific moral theory is obviously a value judgment.

    1. Re:Hear! Hear! by Alsee · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The strongest arguments against DRM are not economic, but moral, and concerns the loss of consumer rights.

      Trying to define the "strongest" arguments is itself an additional layer of value judgment, but setting aside that, one should not underestimate the various economic arguments against DRM.

      Just to cite one example, the recording industry slit their own throats when they got the Audio Home Recording Act to legislatively mandate DRM be included in all new audio recording devices. It strangled the audio hardware industry, which in turn strangled music sales. The Audio Home Recording Act's imposed DRM in Digital Audio Tape and in the Minidisc and in all technology for an entire decade. It effectively exterminated all new devices and strangled hardware sales and strangled music sales for an entire decade. People sat around holding onto their CD collection and NOT buying (or re-buying) music on DAT formate and Minidisc formate or anything else, because no one owned or wanted a DAT player and no one owned or wanted a Minidisc player or anything else. The DRM-extermination of all hardware and formats since the CD is one of the major contributing factors in declining Recording Industry sales numbers.

      The hardware industry was economically devastated and by direct follow-on the content industry economically harmed by DRM for an entire decade. It was only with the introduction of the MP3 player that ANY economic and technological advance has been possible in the audio hardware industry (and the far far too lagged sale of MP3 content), and the sole reason it was possible for the MP3 player to break that DRM-imposed economic wasteland is that the MP3 player slipped through a loophole in the Audio Home Recording Act's DRM mandate. The sole reason that we are seeing economic and technological stimulus in the hardware industry... and the all too delayed stimulus in music industry innovation and sale of old and new content in MP3 format... is exactly because of the escape from the negative economic effects of DRM.

      I certainly agree with the "moral" consumer arguments against DRM, but don't let the situation sound like some wishy-washy "moral" anti-DRM battle against pro-DRM economics.

      DRM is anti-consumer.
      DRM is anti-technology.
      DRM is anti-economic.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    2. Re:Hear! Hear! by definate · · Score: 1
      Hold on. I think you made a typo.

      The strongest arguments against DRM are not economic, but moral, and concerns the loss of consumer rights.

      The strongest argument against DRM (for me) are economic. DRM is intended to further copyrights/royalties and such. As such it regulates a market where it needn't be regulated. The result of this is, increased cost for artists, increased costs for consumers, increased costs for distribution businesses, the primary beneficiaries are the middlemen (producers, etc).

      I know people who work for APRA ( http://www.apra.com.au/ ) and a fair few bands in the Australian market. Because of DRM/CopyRight/Royalties/Etc, there is a barrier to entry for people only just starting in the music industry, which is created and sustained by people who are already established in the music industry.

      I don't know many musos who are well educated on economics, however the ones who are, understand this and see it all the time when trying to get things released and played.

      Additionally, if you believe that business and government is there to serve the interests of people (I don't think anybody would argue else wise), then you see that any regulations on markets, especially in instances like this, does not serve the interests of people, instead it serves the interests of the businesses, however also hurts these businesses in the long term.

      So to end my rant, there are many perfectly valid economic reasons which I would take over the moral ones.

      The economic case against DRM is clear cut.
      --
      This is my footer. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  13. Tragedy of the commons by nickovs · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It seems to me that non-competes are a classic example of what economists refer to as the Tragedy of the commons. For any individual company it makes sense to get your staff to sign a non-compete, to stop them taking elsewhere the knowledge you've paid them to acquire. For a technology cluster as a whole (e.g. Silicon Valley or Route 128) the overall effect is negative due to stagnation in the workforce. The problem is that existing firms don't have an immediate incentive to worry about stagnation in start-ups; they are more concerned about loosing good employees to their competitors.

    The Tragedy of the Commons crops up all over the place - the most frequently seen cases are things like over-exploitation of natural resources. Generally there are only two ways to deal with the problem; one is to legislate against the behaviour that is detrimental in the longer term and the other is to convince the players to take a longer term view. What's interesting about this debate is that there are people who do have a longer-term interest as well as some sway over the companies: the venture capital firms that invest in not just one start-up but many start-ups over a period of time. They have an incentive to make the environment the best for all companies to thrive. I hope Bijan Sabet manages to convince a few more of them!

    --
    If intelligent life is too complex to evolve on its own, who designed God?
    1. Re:Tragedy of the commons by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      And isn't it peculiar how when you leave FutureTek Inc to join TeknoFuture Inc, that your new employer never cares if you have - or respected - a non-compete with your previous employer, while at the same time falling over themselves to make you sign one with them.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    2. Re:Tragedy of the commons by nickovs · · Score: 1

      Private ownership is often proposed by people when they first come across this problem but it is seldom the right solution. It doesn't work well for any mobile resource (the classic example is fishing rights). It doesn't work well for resources who's localised consumption has a direct bearing on neighbours (classic examples are deep wells into the water table and, of course, not letting people demolish just their own condo!). Dividing commons usually leads to sub-optimal utilisation (my sheep and your cows will often graze the whole common more effectively then keeping them separate). A better solution is almost always placing an overall cap on consumption (e.g. regulation) and allowing stake-holders to allocate the resources between themselves either through a democratic process or a market.

      Of course the other big problem with your solution, in the context of Tragedy of the Commons as an analogy for the problems of non-compete contracts, is that what you are proposing is indentured servitude.

      --
      If intelligent life is too complex to evolve on its own, who designed God?
  14. Re:Why not.. by Svartalf · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And I'm in the process of trying to negotiate that BS line away in an employment
    agreement I got presented.

    There is no way I will sign an agreement of that nature without serious modifications.
    I've walked away from contract gigs in recent times where the client's HR outsource
    insisted that I couldn't start work without signing the document and that there would
    be no modifications to the document (Effectively dismissing me before I even started-
    the hiring manager went into a panic and went charging around to get permission to
    get me to submit an amendment to the agreement that protected their interests, but
    by that point in time, I'd already got another comparable contract and was off the
    hook from the other. Don't play games with me. You wouldn't tolerate this stuff
    out of me, I won't tolerate it out of you as an employer.

    In the end, it's standard boilerplate and it's from businesses or their lawyers
    thinking they're "clever" and trying to avoid losing anything that might be theirs.
    The problem is, for me, it IS indentured servitude- and they're in no way even remotely
    paying me enough to lay claim to everything I might come up with, nor could they.
    The HR people all invariably say "that's not what we're intending"- BULLSHIT. If you
    intended otherwise, you would have put it in the agreement- what is on the paper is
    what you intended. If it's not, you need to fire your damn Counsel and find one that
    will do what you actually intend.

    --
    I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
  15. Correlation != Causality by cybermage · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't know that you can link the difference between Boston and Silicon Valley to enforcement of non-compete agreements. Here's some other equally likely candidates:

    San Jose has better weather than Boston. Maybe people with a choice of where to work choose a nice place to do it.

    San Jose pays programmers slightly better than boston. Maybe people like to be paid more.

    Why are people always so eager to boil complex situations down to a variance in a single variable in an attempt to prove a point?

    1. Re:Correlation != Causality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, because those stupid statisticians at Stanford etc. don't consider other variables when they do their statistical analysis

      For example - from the article.
      Gilson looks at a few of the other possible explanations for the difference and shows how they're all lacking, leaving the difference in noncompetes as being the key difference between the two regions in terms of the flow of information and ideas leading to new innovations.

      You can even follow through and read the sources linked from the original article
      eg.http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=124508

      Why are people on the internet always so eager to think that highly qualified economists at world class Universities will have failed to consider the one blindingly obvious thing to consider about a situation, simply based on reading a one line summary of the relevant paper, in order to prove some clearly stupid point?

    2. Re:Correlation != Causality by aadvancedGIR · · Score: 1

      And maybe the corps in Boston benefit in hiring people who cannot afford to go to San Jose and treating them like crap.

      Somehow, it always falls down to a simple balance: do the people accept a job because it is a good one or because they have no other choice?

    3. Re:Correlation != Causality by Surt · · Score: 1

      Why are people always so eager to boil complex situations down to a variance in a single variable in an attempt to prove a point?

      They have an agenda, and it works?

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    4. Re:Correlation != Causality by pclminion · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why are people on the internet always so eager to think that highly qualified economists at world class Universities will have failed to consider the one blindingly obvious thing to consider about a situation, simply based on reading a one line summary of the relevant paper, in order to prove some clearly stupid point?

      I call it the "101 phenomenon." It goes something like: "Any moron learned in physics 101 that that's not possible..." Or "This is statistics 101 stuff, what a bunch of idiots..."

      People take course XXX 101 and think they are now experts. When in fact, the true experts took not only 101, but 201, 301, 401, and probably all the way to "40001." And then they TAUGHT each of those classes. And then they wrote a book on it. They know all the little places where XXX 101 actually made simplifications or glossed over complex topics, or made statements that were NOT strictly true but did so for the sake of teachability. In other words, they know so much more than you do that they already thought of your petty objection within the first microsecond and addressed it not much more than a millisecond later. They counter your objections in their sleep, with no conscious effort -- literally.

      Usually the hard science is left out of the reporting. That doesn't mean it isn't there. But everybody loves to be an expert just because some journalist worded something badly or took it out of context. If your exposure to a topic is only "101 level," you really have no clue at all and certainly no basis to make a meaningful criticism.

    5. Re:Correlation != Causality by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Why are people on the internet always so eager to think that highly qualified economists at world class Universities will have failed to consider the one blindingly obvious thing

      Why not?
      The highly qualified biologists at world class Universities have all failed to consider the [various] one blindingly obvious thing that proves evolution wrong and impossible.

      Chuckle.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  16. Re:Why not.. by Mr+Pippin · · Score: 1

    Yeah, that's about as bad as "Intellectual Pre-Assignment" clauses, too.

  17. Enforceable? by Lobster+Cowboy · · Score: 1

    How enforceable are non-competes anyway? A couple of years ago I worked for a design house that made me sign a non-compete. I was terminated two weeks into the job, and three months later got a new design job. The terms of my non-compete stated that I couldn't work for another studio for one year after termination, but I obviously disregarded that. What's the track record for enforceablity of these agreements?

    --
    --They say only a fool looks at the finger pointing to the sky...
    1. Re:Enforceable? by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      It depends. Mostly, overbroad claims are nonsense. However, if you took it upon yourself in your new design job to call clients that you remembered from your two weeks and used knowledge of failings in the first company to lure their clients away, this would probably be actionable.

      Most often however your non-compete would simply make it difficult to get hired by a new company that clearly was competing over clients with the old company. Unless the new company wants to try to defend in court their decision to hire you, it is much simpler and safer to exclude people with valid, reasonable non-compete agreement from the hiring process. Now if you lie about having one and it comes up later, you are going to find yourself in a difficult place indeed - your new company may just fire you for lying on your application. Regardless of whether or not they would have hired you or not if they knew about the non-compete.

  18. Re:I don't know what you people expect by iminplaya · · Score: 1

    Cue the spelling/grammar nazis...I meant enemies. This post is a preemptive "shhh".

    --
    What?
  19. Human nature by Ghubi · · Score: 2, Insightful
    People don't like to compete. People like to win. People are forced to compete in order to win. Competition brings out the best in people. Given a choice between competition and a guaranteed win, people will almost always go for the guaranteed win.

    Patents, non compete agreements, and organized crime are all designed to provide an automatic win without the need for competition.

  20. This is one of those oddities that should be by zappepcs · · Score: 2, Interesting

    taken care of in the manner of one trade secret at a time. Every time that you, as an employee, are exposed to information deemed a 'trade secret' then the employer should have you sign a specific agreement on THAT piece of information. The catch all non-compete is like agreeing to binding arbitration. Both are overly broad, and designed to give the other party the upper hand in all cases where the future brings conflict. Making such a promise is no more enforcible than the marriage vows many people take. Marriage was once viewed higher than today, but today, you can get a divorce with little or no real effort. The same should be for any particular 'business agreement' where money has not exchanged hands.

    That is to say that if a court can find in favor of the non-compete agreement, you should be able to get a divorce, or sue for compensation. I do not know if this has been tested, but I'd bet a couple of court cases is all that would be required to break that camel's back.

  21. Re:Indentured Servitude by postbigbang · · Score: 1

    Slavery has only time to honor it, innovation to suffer from it, and the master-slave context to remain after that that employment is terminated for reasons that only a stockholder could love. Fie.

    --
    ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
  22. Re:Why not.. by Bert64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That is indeed unfair, but it will be quite happily accepted by people that:
    a, never intend to produce anything, just coast along doing their 9-5
    b, don't read what they sign

    I have refused to sign several such contracts, some companies will be flexible about it but some won't... At the very least, you can get the clause narrowed in scope so that it:
    a, only includes inventions which relate to the company business or the business your employed for
    b, only count things done on company time (ie things your boss told you to look into, not stuff you came up with on your own)

    --
    http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  23. Re:In Democratic Canada... by Bert64 · · Score: 1

    In the UK too, such clauses are known as "restriction of trade" and aren't legal...
    A lot of companies still include them tho, with the intention of scaring people who don't know any better.

    --
    http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  24. Re:useless sheets of paper by Bert64 · · Score: 1

    Not useless, they serve to scare people into compliance...
    A lot of people don't realise non compete clauses aren't enforceable, and thus comply with them out of fear instead of doing the proper research.
    This deters people from leaving, as they fear they couldn't earn the same level of money elsewhere.

    --
    http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  25. Sounds dangerous by Chrisq · · Score: 1

    What if your employer goes bankrupt, makes you redundant, or gets taken over by a company that wants you to relocate to Japan? You could be in a sticky situation.

  26. Inevitable disclosure by tepples · · Score: 1

    Some agreement with the employees who have access to information is almost certainly necessary to gain trade secret protection for that information. This agreement does not have to be a non-compete agreement. Courts in some jurisdictions have held that someone working for a competitor will more than likely inevitably disclose a former employer's trade secrets, even if only by negligence.
  27. Re:Why not.. by bhmit1 · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I'm an independent consultant, so our equivalent is the "work-for-hire" clause which says everything I do belongs to them. I typically start the statement of work off on my paper/template that says the following:

    Client appreciates the value of reusing works created by Consultant at previous engagements and understands the need for the Company to reuse non-confidential portions of works created during this engagement with future clients. Any work, including but not limited to, patentable works; designs; drawings; specifications; models; software; source codes; and object codes, created by Consultant during this engagement shall be provided with a non-exclusive, perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free license, with no rights to sublicense, to use in the context of this engagement to the Client at no additional cost to the Client.
    Translation: they get the knowledge I developed at other customers if other customers get the benefit of knowledge I developed with them. When HR/legal tries to change the agreement, I start off by saying these are the terms I use when dealing with IP. If they push harder, I tell them that I'm willing to use their terms, but:
    • My rate will increase because I can't use this work elsewhere and could potentially be working at another client where my work could be reused and make me more valuable.
    • My time estimates will at least double since I have to recreate everything I've done elsewhere that I had previously planned on using for this project
    When companies realize they get a benefit from not using non-competes, they quickly change their mind, and so far, not one has forced their version of the IP agreement on me.
  28. "human capital"? by Voline · · Score: 1

    Yeah, umm. There is no such thing as "human capital". Capital is a store of value that is used to acquire the means of production (plant and machinery), raw materials and labor that is then used in production of something to be sold on the market.

    What you are calling "human capital" has been known previously as "labor", as in "non-competes as the DRM of labor". But apparently in this amazing new, new economy labor is no longer required, production is a process of just "capital" and ummmm "human capital".

    Excuse me, I gotta go to work now.

    1. Re:"human capital"? by Faylone · · Score: 1

      'human capital' sounds nicer than 'slaves'

    2. Re:"human capital"? by dosius · · Score: 1

      Yeah, well, you can use a doublet word (derived from the same source) and get a more apropos vision of what they see you as...

      HUMAN CATTLE

      -uso.

      --
      What you hear in the ear, preach from the rooftop Matthew 10.27b
    3. Re:"human capital"? by Alsee · · Score: 2, Insightful

      'Human capital' obviously does not fit in within the previous literal definition of capital, but phrase 'human capital' absolutely does have real and useful meaning above and beyond mere 'labor'.

      Capital is a store of value that is used to acquire the means of production (plant and machinery), raw materials and labor that is then used in production of something to be sold on the market.

      Human capital actually fits that definition quite well.

      Human capital is exactly the recognition that labor is *not* a trivially interchangeable commodity, that there can in fact be a store of value in specific individuals, and that store of value has the literal or metaphorical same properties and effect as conventional capital.

      If the job is digging ditches, there is essentially no human capital involved. Labor is labor and is trivially interchangeable. It doesn't matter who you have and it doesn't matter who you lose, you just hire the next generic labor unit to replace it.

      If the job involves a unique and in-depth understanding to operate maintain or improve something that is extremely complex... for example some complex software or a large and extremely intricate manufacturing plant and manufacturing process... then your long time employees who do have that unique knowledge and unique understanding represent human capital. If one of those employees dies or leaves, that human capital leaves with him. You can hire new labor to replace that individual, but that new labor will be entirely incapable of preforming that job. You may need to dedicate that new labor for several months doing nothing other than becoming familiar with the complex whatever-it-is before he can productively do that job. You need to expend that labor for several months, investing in recreating that unique knowledge and unique understanding, to establish that human capital in that new person.

      Human capital is a store of value within an individual person.

      Sometimes you recreate, replace, or reacquire specific human capital merely by expending labor or money or other resources, as in the example above. However some of the most valuable human capital can be quite difficult and extremely expensive and sometimes impossible to replace. For example say an individual works at a company, and that individual in his off time has become exceptionally productive prominent and influential in open source, perhaps that individual is a lead individual or even the head maintainer for some world-prominent open source project for software that is critical to your business. The company can invest in that human capital. The company can "spend" some of that individual's official "company time labor" to invest in that unique human capital working on that project. That can be valuable and irreplaceable human capital. That human capital can be used to harness an entire community of open source programmers to write software that that company needs. That human capital can directly or indirectly influence that company-critical open source project to meet the needs of the company. That human capital may be able to directly or indirectly influence other global open source projects to meet the needs of the company. That human capital may be able to directly or indirectly influence national and international standards, to directly or indirectly influence national laws or international treaties, to meet the needs of the company.

      That particular individual is far more than labor. That individual can represent an enormous and irreplaceable store of value, a vast investment of human capital. Human capital may not only be "used to acquire the means of production, raw materials and labor that is then used in production of something to be sold on the market" in both literal and figurative senses, it can be used for all that and far more. In grand cases human capital may influence the very existence of market for your product.

      Yes the phrase 'human capital' can sometimes be abused or used is a fluffy meaningless way, but it is hardly meaningless or nonexistent. It is a somewhat abstract but very real and useful concept.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  29. Re:Why not.. by 0x15e · · Score: 1

    The HR people all invariably say "that's not what we're intending"- BULLSHIT.

    Exactly. I went back and forth with my current employer for a month over my employment agreement trying to get the noncompete and IP clauses tweaked. The fact was that he didn't even know what was in it or what those clauses meant. The lawyer had pretty much churned out the whole thing and I had to go through it and rewrite / tweak the parts I disagreed with. The whole time, I had to explain to my (soon to be) employer what everything meant and why I wouldn't agree to have everything I do be owned by the company and agree not to work again in the region for years after I was done with the job. After several revisions, it finally got where everyone was happy.

    You really have to pay attention to what you're signing and have a decent idea of what it all means. As my situation shows, even if your employer has the best of intentions, it may be a bad agreement. You have to take responsibility for looking out for your own best interests.

  30. Human Capital?? by dentar · · Score: 1

    Huh?

    Advice for EVERYONE: Don't sign these things, ever. Never, ever sign a non-compete. Just don't do it. I did and luckily it wasn't a super-long term. Also, if a company forces you to use a non-compete, find out BEFORE accepting the job offer. If a company that you've been working for comes along and asks you to sign it, call your lawyer immediately.

    --
    -- I am. Therefore, I think!
    1. Re:Human Capital?? by Prof.Phreak · · Score: 1

      Or better yet, just literally cross out the lines saying anything about non-compete stuff, tell the other party that you've crossed them out (with initials) 'cause you don't agree to -them-, and then sign. It's usually easier negotiation wise (ie: ``I'm not signing this.'' vs ``I'm singing it with these conditions.'').

      Non-compete should apply ONLY while you're working for your employer. Not afterwards. Once you're not longer working for them, anything goes. That's capitalism. They don't and can't "own" you---and cannot dictate stuff to you after they stop paying you.

      If they want 6 months after termination non-compete, insist on getting paid for those 6 months 20% above your previous salary [after all, you do need to support yourself in those 6 months you cannot work in the field]. A contract should be seen as a two way negotiation. You can bind -them- to things just as well as they can bind you.

      Also, just to be clear, non-compete means "ideas in your head"; it should certainly not be legal for you to take code developed at one place and use it to start your own venture elsewhere.

      --

      "If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy

  31. CORRECTION by tepples · · Score: 1

    What the employee gets in return for a non-compete agreement is a job. In that case, the non-compete should terminate at the same time that the job does. I meant to say: What the employee gets in return for a non-compete agreement is the saved income from having had a job.
    1. Re:CORRECTION by tepples · · Score: 1
      AC wrote:

      So does the non-compete end when the employee's savings run out? The non-compete ends when the employee's savings reasonably should have run out.
  32. Bad Analogies as the DRM of Human Discourse by munch117 · · Score: 1

    Writing annoyingly bad titles is an art form onto itself. What'ya think, can my subject line compete with the article title, or should I throw in a ", says industry analyst" for good measure?

  33. reality of non-competes by rubycodez · · Score: 1

    nonsense, a person who's worked for three years won't be able to save up enough to live for two more years. The reality is non-competes are more often not upheld. always check the laws where you live, you might be surprised at how enforcement of non-compete varies by nature of work, position level, etc.

  34. Two separate things by cdrguru · · Score: 1

    Every "non-compete" agreement that I have ever signed or given someone to sign is first and foremost a statement of ethics. The employee understand they are going to have some valuable materials at their disposal and to either share these with a competitor or to run out and start a business using them would be unethical. And possibly lead to legal sanctions.

    The second part is assignment of inventions which is almost alway completely separate. Or at least it should be. If you are employed in a "creative" capacity where it is your job to come up with new things, do you honestly believe that you should have the right to (a) come up with something new that is within the scope of your job, (b) quit, and (c) form a new company to exploit this new idea?

    Maybe you are thinking "Nobody would be that stupid!" but it has been done. Exactly like that, within the period of a few days, not weeks or months. It has even been done at the level where the new idea has been completely researched and proven to the point where it could be implemented. And they the "inventor" walks away to do it all independently. Motivations differ, but usually it is because their brother-in-law (the attorney) sold them on the idea that they could "make billions" this way and they would never see anything from it if they stayed with the company that paid for the research time.

    Sure, there are people that have tried to behave ethically and gotten screwed. But for every one of those there have been people that have lied, cheated and stole from their employer. And in my experience the far larger quantity has been on the side of unethical behavior.

    1. Re:Two separate things by Surt · · Score: 1

      Wow. Just wow.

      The second part is assignment of inventions which is almost alway completely separate. Or at least it should be. If you are employed in a "creative" capacity where it is your job to come up with new things, do you honestly believe that you should have the right to (a) come up with something new that is within the scope of your job, (b) quit, and (c) form a new company to exploit this new idea?

      If it's a non-patentable idea, then absolutely, yes. If it's patentable, there's no problem to begin with, as the first company has the paper trail to fight and win this in court. Assignment of IP created on the job is perfectly reasonable. But only that. Recreation of the IP off the job from knowledge is completely moral.

      Sure, there are people that have tried to behave ethically and gotten screwed. But for every one of those there have been people that have lied, cheated and stole from their employer. And in my experience the far larger quantity has been on the side of unethical behavior.

      If you believe that, you are either grossly underexperienced, or blind. Employer exploitation of workers is rampant. Just look at the pay differences between average and max at any company, and you'll see disparities that disprove that claim.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    2. Re:Two separate things by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Sure, restricting you from selling something that is in the scope of the job while employed some place is fine, but a lot of the IP contracts demand all of the creative stuff you come up with, sometimes with the option to list exceptions.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
  35. I don't understand how they enforce them by swb · · Score: 1

    ...unless you're some key scientist at a major corporation.

    For "average" techies who have to sign them, how do they know where you go to work when you quit and how much effort will they put forth to actually enforce it?

    I work for a small consulting company (20 people) and they made new guys sign non-competes and tried to get existing employees to sign them (I said sure, for $10k consideration and a full salary and benefits guarantee during my non-compete period, they said not to worry about it then).

    But if I quit my job, I just go into my boss' office, hand him a resignation letter that says "Thanks for the opportunity. My last day is Month XX, 20xx. Please have any final checks available on this date as I am relocating and do not have a forwarding address." I don't tell them where I'm going, I don't tell them who I'm working for (if really pressed, "looking into several opportunities I do not wish to discuss").

    I just find it hard to believe that a company my size, or even 10 times my size, is going to go through the hassle of hiring an investigator, an attorney and spending possibly a year of my salary to keep me from working. I mean, they have to FIND me, FIND where I'm working and be able to prove it in court. That's not trivial.

    Now, if you're a really key exec or scientist or something at a company with real, real deep pockets or you do some real obvious, high profile job change that even the tabloids can track, I can see where they could spend the money (or not need to) to enforce them. But for everyone else it just seems like a BS corporate bluff.

    1. Re:I don't understand how they enforce them by Prof.Phreak · · Score: 1

      Lets say five years later they find out that shortly after quitting, you started a $100-million dollar corp. They'll sue you then for losses/damages resulting from that---they'll claim the sole reason your whole corp exists and was successful is 'cause you took whatever is theirs, etc.

      It's a civil case, it doesn't -have- to make sense.

      Though historically, most of the world's biggest corps were started by pissed off employees who quit and started a better company (ie: if you have a good lawyer, you got nutn to worry about).

      --

      "If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy

    2. Re:I don't understand how they enforce them by swb · · Score: 1

      Seems like an unusual situation -- relative to the number of people who sign non-competes, almost none go on to start $100 million startups because very few people start them to begin with, and those that do fall into the "key scientist" group I mentioned in my OP.

      Furthermore, most states have restrictions on non-competes that generally exclude self-employment as being covered by the non-compete and in at least my state, a non-compete can't prevent you from working in your professional field entirely.

      I still think that non-competes are generally BS for mere mortals, since trying to actually litigate the agreement probably costs $20k just to determine if you even can think about litigating it.

      The only time I can see them being successful is if the agreement held some bonus compensation in escrow for the duration of the non-compete or pending proof of non-competitive employment.

  36. Wrong attitude. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    It makes perfect sense though; why fill my head with Trade secrets and methods just to have me open up shop across the street.

    The problem with your attitude here is, you're thinking about what's good for the company, not what's good for you. While you won't be able to take any trade secrets if they've had that covered properly (NDA, worst case), why not insist that you retain that ability?

    In other words, yes, it would suck for that company if you just open up shop across the street. But if you're anything like most of us, it's a lot harder and riskier to start your own business than to work for a boss -- particularly if you're working in a business that tends towards companies big enough to have a boss in the first place.

    So, it's a way to make your employer at least try to keep you happy, if they know you can always do that. But they don't even have to try that hard, because it is so hard to "just open up shop".

    Competition is the core of good Capitalism but nothing says you have to help your enemies.

    And that is the core of what's wrong with your employer, if that's their attitude.

    You are an employer, not an enemy.

    From what I remember of my own contracts, the worst was the NDA. That is, I can't disclose their trade secrets, ever, whether I leave or not. But the only thing I remember about not competing was that I can't compete with them while working for them -- if I leave, I can do whatever I want.

    But rather than enforcing a lot of paperwork -- each contract I signed was less than two pages -- they instead make me want to stay. Because if I don't leave, any kind of noncompete extending past the term of employment is completely irrelevant.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  37. It's all BS by joeyg1973 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I have dealt with this before. My lawyer told me that only one or 2 of these cases have ever made it to the court. Judges throw these cases out as soon as they see them. Your previous employer cannot tell you where you can and cannot work. It is taking away your ability to earn a living. I had worked for a company for 2 years, went to their direct competitor for more money for a year, then came back to the first company. Both times I got a very official and long letter from the former company's law firm chastising me about the non-compete and asked me to respond within a certain time limit to some questions in the hope that I would write something that was actionable. Both times I ignored the letters, the time limit came and went, and nothing further happened. I have a friend who was in a similar situation and his former company decided to press the issue. It never made it to court, judge just threw it right out. I believe that the only way that a non-compete can be enforced is if the company can show significant monetary damage has occurred. Working for whomever you want is still perfectly legal in the USA!

  38. Essential Difference by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

    I see at least one essential difference between DRM at non-competes. Where both non-competes have a limited lifetime and thus eventually will stop holding you back, DRM makes your content inaccessible for _ever_.

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
  39. What about the little guy? by shagymoe · · Score: 1

    I've often wondered how many times it happens that a lone programmer creates a unique application or fills a niche and gets screwed by one of his first employees taking his ideas and running with it. Imagine that he put years of thought into the structure and algorithms. Maybe the actual code wasn't extremely difficult to write, but the though process behind it was unique and the relations of his models took a significant amount of time and effort to produce. He hires a few hackers to help with final testing and the implementation and during that time, one of them was secretly writing his own version of the app. He didn't steal the code, but stole the model and the work that went into putting all of the relationships together in a cohesive way. Maybe the thief is a better programmer or has more resources and, instead of putting that talent and resources into making the original app the best it could be, he creates a better version, gets the market share and leaves the original guy in the dust. On his own, the "thief" would never have come up with the app, but once he saw the value, it was easy to steal and call it his own.

    Does this happen regularly? Do you feel that it is just the "free market" at work? What did the original author do wrong? Should he have had a non-compete? If not, how does he prevent this scenario?

  40. Noncompetes not common in Boston by TheMCP · · Score: 1

    Having worked almost all of the 19 years of my professional career in Boston, only once have I ever been asked to sign a noncompete agreement. Before signing it, I checked with a few professionals (including, informally, a lawyer) and was told that it could only apply if I voluntarily left the employer with whom I had the agreement to go to a competitor, and it only applied for 3 months anyway.

    Noncompetes just aren't common in Boston.

  41. Re:Why not.. by Bert64 · · Score: 1

    I've rejected several job offers based on contract terms like that, if people keep doing it they will eventually have to change their terms.

    Such terms can often decrease the talent pool too, people who are more in demand can be more choosy about their contract terms resulting in companies with such terms only being able to employee lower quality staff: (those in less demand, those who have no intention to invent anything and thus don't care, those who are too careless to read the contract etc)

    --
    http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  42. "that's not what we're intending" by Per+Abrahamsen · · Score: 2, Interesting

    > The HR people all invariably say "that's not what we're intending"

    That one is particularly easy, cross out the relevant part of the contract, and write "what they were intending" in the margin.

    If have never personally experienced problems with modifying the contracts, usually the "hiring officer" will accept them. The same laziness that makes most people accept the outrageous contracts, also works on the people on the other side of the fence.

    1. Re:"that's not what we're intending" by Svartalf · · Score: 1

      That's a way out. The problem is, most of these documents are NOT worded such that you can
      do that without a VP level or above management person signing off on the document. While
      it counts if their rep lets you get away with it, it's still not binding and in most cases,
      the HR people won't let you sign it in that form.

      The document, technically, is to be signed as is or not at all.

      So, either you need to come up with an amended version that they will sign properly or
      an actioned amendment agreement that alters the rules accordingly actioned BEFORE you
      action the other for it to count.

      If you don't you can expect the employer dragging you into court trying to run a suit
      forcing you to assign at your cost up the flagpole and seeing if a Judge will salute it
      if they smell a goldmine and it's not officially theirs. It's happened before in the
      past (and in the DFW metropolitan area, where I live) that someone's been stuck with a
      Court Order, commanding the person to assign the thing at your cost. This was in spite
      of the fact that technically it wasn't theirs to begin with- but the reasoning the Court
      used (and was upheld) was that you signed it, you agreed to it, so you have to honor it.

      Do not sign things you do not agree with, regardless of what the "unenforcibility" thereof
      is on the agreement or contract. You might be shocked to find what actually IS enforceable.

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    2. Re:"that's not what we're intending" by Per+Abrahamsen · · Score: 1

      > The problem is, most of these documents are NOT worded such that you can
      > do that without a VP level or above management person signing off on the document.

      It is a win-win situation. You sign the amended contract, and either it is legally binding in the amended form, or it is not. If it is not, you haven't signed away any rights, and your employment falls under whatever local law dictates. You will never be bound by a different contract than the one you signed.

      Of course, if you want more rights than local law provides, you will have to get someone with sufficient power to sign the amended contract, but that is a different situation.

  43. Not going too far, already in use by Per+Abrahamsen · · Score: 2, Insightful

    > That's going a bit far. If you quit, why should they pay you severance?

    Because the value of you *not* working for the competition is more worth to the company than the money in question naturally. It system is actually in use for the upper levels of management, where the people are too smart to sign a non compete agreement with no compensation. It is a significant part of what's behind Golden handshakes.

    The problem is that most engineers are lousy businessmen, and thus willing to sign away something value for free (if the non-compete agreement wasn't valuable to the company, it wouldn't be there).

    1. Re:Not going too far, already in use by swillden · · Score: 1

      Because the value of you *not* working for the competition is more worth to the company than the money in question naturally.

      That would explain why they would pay you a salary for the duration of the non-compete, perhaps, it doesn't explain a severance package beyond that.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  44. So where's the DMCA equivalent? by Cajun+Hell · · Score: 1
    No person shall..

    a) Contest a plaintiff who sues based on a non-compete agreement

    b) Hire a lawyer to get advice about a non-compete agreement

    c) Traffic in information about non-compete agreements or laws that concern non-compete agreements (including this law)

    --
    "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
  45. yes, 100% true by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    human nature is paradoxically selfless and selfish at the same time

    so any social system: a government, a legal structure, that attemptes to straightjacket human nature as totally selfish or totally selfless fails, because it misses half of human nature. a legal structure must attempt to reflect the nature of the human beings it is forced onto as much as it can. if you instead try to force human nature into unnatural simplistic assumptions, you are automatically weakening the social structure, and the lives of the human beings in that structure

    you can't boil human nature down to simple philosophies. human nature is complex, and so must its legal structures reflect that. when you try to simplify human existence, such as with fundamentalist teachings for example, you only impoverish the lives of the human beings toiling under strict simplistic strictures

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  46. How about Washington state? by Vegan+Pagan · · Score: 1

    Does Washington state enforce non-compete agreements? What's it like at Microsoft and Amazon compared to Silicon Valley?

  47. Where I work is fine by GWLlosa · · Score: 1

    To contrast the horror stories of noncomplete clauses, the company I work at (large insurance company) has written into their contract that anything I do at home is explicitely mine, and if I want another job after this one, I am only restricted from using customer data and source code from here when I go there, which is perfectly reasonable.

  48. should be null and void if they fire you... by scharkalvin · · Score: 1

    My take on these is that if I leave on my own to seek a better job I might be subject to the terms of such an agreement. OTOH, if I'm laid off of fired for some BS reason (such as to save money), I would consider any such agreement I might have signed null and void.

  49. not limited to what you invent by Wansu · · Score: 2, Informative


    One outfit I interviewed with was wanting me to sign an agreement which stipulated, among other things, that I not work for any competing companies for a year after termination of employment with them, even if they fire me. I balked. They withdrew their offer. A few years later, they shuttered their operations here.

    Is this enforceable? I don't know. But the way I look at it, if they're doing stuff like this during the interview process, what will they be like later?

    --
    Wansu, th' chinese sailor
  50. Does California Law Trump All? by CrapTastix · · Score: 1

    The post title makes an assertion regarding California law not recognizing non-competes... does anyone have first hand experience with this. It is my understanding that you can sign a non-compete but have it struck down in a California court because CA does not view it as a legal agreement? This work for anyone? It didn't seem to work for Google's Kai-Fu Lee vs. MS.

  51. Depends on the market and business by BrianRagle · · Score: 2, Informative

    According to my wife's business law class, a NCA is largely enforceable only under certain conditions. Market location, trade secrets, and client base are the major factors. For example, if I work for a small advertising shop in Florida, which only works within the Florida market, and I move to Washington (state), an NCA would be nonsense, even if I signed it. It would prevent a reasonable expectation to earn a living. Now, if I worked for Microsoft (as if) and left to work for Apple (yay!), an NCA would probably be enforceable.

    One thing I have noticed is NCAs being employed in places you wouldn't expect them. My son went to work for a local paintball field as a game helper and referee. This is a small-time outfit operating out of some guy's house. He had to sign an NCA. He showed it to me and I just laughed.

  52. Most big companies don't by einhverfr · · Score: 1

    Having seen then non-competes at Microsoft, Intel, etc. they are appropriately scoped to avoid leakage of trade secrets, but not attrition of employees. Small companies should be doing this (i.e. use non-competes to keep someone from taking your trade secrets and going to work using them at a competitor) but usually they are really just interested in keeping *you.*

    I believe that non-competes, used appropriately, do more good than harm. However, they are very often abused and on the whole that may not be the case.

    --

    LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    1. Re:Most big companies don't by DrMaurer · · Score: 1

      Strange thing is that I've seen weird places issue these. Small companies with approximately no chance of losing any intellectual property.

      By which I mean: register jockey at a retail establishment.

      What they sold there wasn't anything weird (to me), but she wasn't allowed to work at a competing store within 50 miles for 3 years.

      Huh? For tending a register?

      --
      Dan
  53. BTW by einhverfr · · Score: 1

    My business has no trade secrets aside from customer lists, etc. Hence we get by just with trade secret protections (no poaching customer, and the like). Non-competes are more or less useless for us.

    BTW, one thing my business actively does is provide ideas we have in development to third party businesses free of charge. THe reasoning is: in these cases we are involved in core communities of open source projects, and our competition helps us more than it hurts (because they are downstream of us and this helps us reach more customers).

    --

    LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
  54. Re:Why not.. by einhverfr · · Score: 1

    When I worked at Microsoft, the contract had a clause to that effect. I did sign it because it had another clause which gave me ways to protect work I did on my own time-- If there are options for moonlighting, you can negotiate a right to start your own business and keep all the IP of that business to yourself.

    --

    LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
  55. Wrong analogy by GranBurguesa · · Score: 1

    DRM is a technological method of enforcement of a legal right (the right to restrict copying). Non-competes are just legal agreements, not any physical or technological mechanism.

    Unless you're completely against copyright (which I'm sure many but not most of you are), you think that content owners should have their content legally protected, it's the enforcement of that protection through flawed, restricted and/or proprietary formats that we all pretty much agree sucks.

    Non-competes might be bad just like copyright might be bad, I don't see what DRM has to do with it.

  56. Re:Why not.. by Shajenko42 · · Score: 1

    Their retort was that people doing other working outside their contracted hours can use it as an "exit strategy".
    Wow. So they out and out admitted that they don't want their employees to have the option of quitting?
  57. Re:Why not.. by vinn01 · · Score: 2, Insightful


    I'll fix that for ya:

    It will be quite ------ accepted by people that:

    a. have been unemployed for an extended period of time after a previous layoff
    b. have a family to support

    Ethical high ground comes at a great cost when there are responsibilities involved.

    If you have responsibilities, do they share your ethical high ground (even if they are below the age of consent)?

  58. Non-competes should pay you. by babbling · · Score: 1

    If you sign a non-compete agreement, make sure you will be paid for the duration of the non-compete period.

    NDAs should also pay something for the duration of the non-disclosure period, because they also make you significantly less employable.

    1. Re:Non-competes should pay you. by dgagley · · Score: 1

      By law the Non Compete is invalid if they keep you from earning a living in your profession. I always find a way to forget to sign the Non Competes. The most they can get you on is if you take company technology or employees with you.

      --
      I can't use my sig - my computer can't read my handwriting.
  59. Your sig by Captain+Nitpick · · Score: 1

    I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas

    I think the use of terms like "consumer" is, to some degree, a symptom of the same problem. Corporations and governments have ceased even pretending to treat people as actual people.

    I try to remember to use the word "citizen", but sadly, I usually fail.

    --
    But then again, I could be wrong.
  60. That's what my company did by skintigh2 · · Score: 1

    I work for a tiny piss-ant company with a name that makes no sense. The owner wanted his 15 or so employees to sign a form he found on the net and filled in the values on. It said we could not work in our field for 10 years after we quit (I guess we were to flip burgers) and if we did we were to pay him $100,000.

    I wasn't here yet, but my co-workers (who don't strike me as rabble-rousers) all refused to sign it, and it went away.

  61. Noncompetes should be illegal by TheLink · · Score: 1

    What do you expect a baker/coder/doctor/etc to do then? Somehow not earn a living with her/his skills (while still keeping them up to date for future employment) for X years?

    Ridiculous.

    Same goes for those unethical clauses which basically state "On signing up, the Company owns any idea you had in the past, in the present and in the future".

    I thought slavery was abolished in most countries.

    --
  62. Re:Why not.. by einhverfr · · Score: 1

    Basically you have to apply through the legal department, but once it is approved (basically showing that you are not undermining Microsoft with your business), you get basically back your ability to keep the development you do on your own time.

    --

    LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
  63. Wikipedia to the rescue by Cantus · · Score: 1
  64. Re:Why not.. by Bert64 · · Score: 1

    Yes, but there's a reason those people who accepted non-compete clauses end up unemployed for an extended period of time...
    Most people specialise in one skill, and doing a job relating to that skill is their best way to make money. If they find themselves unable to work in their primary field for a period of time due to a non compete agreement, they either have to do something else, and since theyre not qualified to do other jobs they end up doing unskilled work, or remain unemployed.

    To copy someone else's example, if your a drummer and you go to work for a band who makes you sign a non compete... What happens when you leave that band? You can't be a drummer anymore, if your really lucky you might be able to earn some money teaching drumming lessons but thats also quite a different skill. Why should your previous company be able to fuck you over for the next X years after you leave? If they don't want you to compete against them, they should be required to continue paying you the same wage (and increase it by standard inflation each year for the duration of the contract term).

    --
    http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  65. Re:Why not.. by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

    If you have responsibilities, do they share your ethical high ground (even if they are below the age of consent)?

    And when you can't legally take a job because of a non-compete contract, or your previous contract claims IP over software you are now trying to sell, or a new business you are starting up, or perhaps your company lays you off because posting something on your website constitutes distributing "their" IP, similarly, make sure you remember your responsibilities.

    It's not about some hypothetical philosophical ethical high ground - it's about real issues.