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Snortable Drug 'Replaces' Sleep For Monkeys In Trials

sporkme writes "A DARPA-funded research project at UCLA has wrapped up a set of animal trials testing the effects of inhalation of the brain chemical orexin A, a deficiency of which is a characteristic of narcolepsy. Monkeys were deprived of sleep, and then given a shot of the compound. 'The study ... found orexin A not only restored monkeys' cognitive abilities but made their brains look "awake" in PET scans. Siegel said that orexin A is unique in that it only had an impact on sleepy monkeys, not alert ones, and that it is 'specific in reversing the effects of sleepiness' without other impacts on the brain.' Researchers seem cautious to bill the treatment as a replacement for sleep, as it is not clear that adjusting brain chemistry could have the same physical benefits of real sleep in the long run. The drug is aimed at replacing amphetamines used by drowsy long-haul military pilots, but there would no doubt be large demand for such a remedy thanks to its apparent lack of side-effects."

236 comments

  1. But can it *replace* sleep? by BWJones · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Years ago I was asked to join a group doing government work in exploring drugs related to sleep replacement or to maintain alertness in certain groups of people. This sort of stuff made me uncomfortable then and it still gives me the creeps.

    The question for me always is whether or not the drug can *replace* sleep and all of its critical physiological functions. Sleep is a complex phenomenon with very specific architectures that helps maintain learning, performance, sanity and literature suggests more far reaching benefits from regular sleep. Lots of drugs can make the brain look "awake" including amphetamines and modafinil, itself widely used by people to maintain activities in the face of sleep needs. However, there are long term biological implications for not allowing one to invoke sleep including poor long term performance on learning and memory and there is some literature that suggests cardiovascular implications as well as other problems. Now, while the adverse effects of amphetamines are well known, they have been used for at least 60 years. On the other hand, drugs like modafinil are very recent and you may be shocked to find out just how many physicians, pilots, military personnel, truck drivers and housewives are currently taking modafinil to maintain alertness in the face of lack of sleep.

    --
    Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
    1. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This sort of thing looks just like the same kind of "quick fix", I'm really skeptical of this one too. IIRC, most of our self-repair functions happen when we sleep, so this probably has long-term implications that won't be caught in an 18 month trial.

    2. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by yulek · · Score: 1

      otoh, talk about a simple way to extend a human's active life span by 30+% were it possible to actually eliminate the need for sleep. i am also skeptical since every cognizant living organism regardless of its family seems to require downtime but nevertheless would be really interested in gaining back those 6-7 hours i currently "waste"...

      (yes i realize all the downsides including more energy/resources being consumed per individual, etc.)

      --
      in this age of communication i'm just not getting through
    3. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by Lerc · · Score: 1

      There may be good reasons for sleep, but it isn't necessarily the case that those needs cannot be met by other means.

      For the most part people think that sleep must be needed because people feel sleepy. Artificially creating a disconnect between sleepiness and the need for sleep means that you may not be able to use one as a guide to the other. It is very much like the free will arguments. The strongest argument for free will is that people feel they have it but there are experiments to show the feeling is an illusion.

      The implications are

      Just because you are not sleepy doesn't mean you don't need sleep.
      but also
      If you are sleepy you may not actually need sleep.

      You need a totally separate assessment.

      Keep people on this stuff for a month and you should get some good clues on how to assess it.

      --
      -- That which does not kill us has made its last mistake.
    4. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by Kierthos · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Cool. Let me know when all you PETA morons line up to be in those "we didn't use any animals at all so we have no way of knowing what this drug will really do to you" clinical trials.

      What's that? No, you can't back out. Think of the animals!

      --
      Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
    5. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by martinussen · · Score: 1

      The thing about this one is, it isn't a stimulant. It's a hormone that seems to have much to do with sleep. Instead of forcing the brain to stay awake, it seems to use the brain's own systems for measuring sleepiness.

    6. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by ultranova · · Score: 1

      For the most part people think that sleep must be needed because people feel sleepy.

      No, people think that they need sleep because not sleeping will kill you.

      One could also use simple logic: you are vulnerable while you sleep, so if it isn't an actual physical need, I doubt very much it would be as widespread phenomenom as it is.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    7. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It could replace sleep, if it would have the same effect. But the only effect that is named, is that you are not tired and have normal brain function. I would argue that the only effect of sleep is to restore normal brain function. We all know the brain is very active when we sleep, it actually does something in that time.

      That looks at the thing from the wrong side. Do we need sleep because we get tired? I don't think so. We get tired because we need sleep.

    8. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by phillips321 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The way I always see it is like this:
      Our human body's through evolution have become very advanced and have developed some fantastic biological systems. If we consider that we sleep for a 3rd of our 24hours day and this is the best that evolution can do for us then there are obviously some very important processes/actions that happen when we're sleeping. If sleep wasn't such an important factor then us as animals would have surely evolved enough to not need sleep, with no sleep we would have more time to follow the necessities of life, survival, eating drinking, (and if your lucky enough) Reproduction!

    9. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yeah, leave it to science to try to replace the one part of my life that I really, unconditionally adore. I'm a reasonably productive person, and I've done quite a lot in my half-life, but there's nothing like 9 hours of uninterrupted sleep to make me a wonderfully happy man. I love my wife and kid. Food and sex are great. But sleep... Sleep is like the best bottle of wine you ever drank, cubed. It's like falling in love every single night. It's a fabulous journey, it's a long-sought homecoming. It's a precious fluid dropped on a parched tongue.

      A drug that would make sleep unnecessary?

      Pass.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    10. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by cHiphead · · Score: 1

      Rick James figured this all out long before these "scientists"...

      "Cocaine is a hell of a drug"

      Cheers.

      --

      This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    11. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by Yetihehe · · Score: 1

      If you have high quality sleep, I envy you. I would like to limit my sleep to neccesary minimum if only it would give me more producivity time. I need to sleep minimum 9-10 hours and then almost everytime I need 2 more hours to awake fully. Then after 10 hours of awake I'm sleepy again and can do nothing productive till I go sleep. After working for 8 hours this gives really little time for free time. I have more free time only if I'm ready to be non-productive whole next day.

      --
      Extreme Programming - Redundant Array of Inexpensive Developers
    12. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by waferthinmint · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm not disagreeing per se, but I am not entirely sold on that "best solution as designed by evolution" pitch. One very good reason that evolution may have created sleep is not that sleep is the best fix, but the cludge that it came up with. consider that many animals never sleep. It may be that sleep is just Nature's way of making us go inactive when a niche does not suit us. animals designed for nightlife do poorly in daylight and so tend to sleep then. animals that don't do well in the dark sleep at night. this may be selection in which sleep is really to keep us from walking around where there are predators we can't see. for that matter, big cats and house cats alike would kill all possible prey and starve if not unconscious 20 hours a day. If allowed to "follow the necessities of life, survival, eating[,] drinking, (and if your [sic] lucky enough) Reproduction" to heart's content, we would have died out on the savannah.

    13. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by tommertron · · Score: 1

      I second this. I love sleeping in on the weekends, but if I could avoid sleep, I'd be able to have a job and still do my hobbies and enjoy more social time on my off-hours. Sleep is a big productivity hole to me. While I doubt any drug could every replace such a sleep, if there were one with no side effects, I'd do it in a heart-beat. As I would a 'fitness' pill.

      --
      Random rants about technology: http://technorants.blogspot.com
    14. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Yeah, leave it to science to try to replace the one part of my life that I really, unconditionally adore. I'm a reasonably productive person, and I've done quite a lot in my half-life, but there's nothing like 9 lines of uninterrupted coke to make me a wonderfully happy man. I love my wife and kid. Food and sex are great. But coke... Cocaine is like the best bottle of wine you ever drank, powdered. It's like falling in love every single night. It's a fabulous journey, it's a long-sought homecoming. It's a precious fluid dropped on a parched tongue.

      A drug that would make cocaine unnecessary?

      Pass.

    15. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by leenks · · Score: 4, Informative

      Out of interest, how much exercise do you do per day, and what do you eat? These things can have a massive effect on the ability to sleep - especially the exercise aspect.

    16. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by MrMonty · · Score: 1

      Preach on brother!

      (I just woke up, darn kids have the nerve to get up before noon)

    17. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by Jim+Hall · · Score: 1

      This sort of thing looks just like the same kind of "quick fix", I'm really skeptical of this one too. IIRC, most of our self-repair functions happen when we sleep, so this probably has long-term implications that won't be caught in an 18 month trial.

      Yeah, wasn't there an X-Files episode on that? :-)

    18. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't 9 lines of coke an overdose for just about anyone? I'm hoping someone with more experience in such matters can answer.

    19. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I would like to limit my sleep to neccesary minimum if only it would give me more producivity time.
      Maybe we have differing notions of "productivity". I've been playing with lucid dreaming, on and off, for about 25 years. I find that a really good night's sleep, with energetic, "strong" dreams will make me twice as productive the following day, while a night of insufficient sleep brings a day where I have to exert twice as much mental energy to produce the same result. In fact, when I'm in sleep deficit, I often can't produce anything at all.

      Maybe this is unique to artists, musicians, writers, etc. Perhaps if I was some sort of middle manager or legal secretary or director of tech support for an insurance company, lack of sleep would make less difference. But I bet programmers do better with a good night's sleep.

      I understant that when you work 8-10 hours and sleep 8 hours and commute 2.5 hours it doesn't leave a lot of time for living. That's why I've tried so hard to arrange my life so I don't have to work 40 hours per week to support my family and have tried to live close to my place of work (or work at home) so I don't throw away so many hours of spirit-draining activities such as commuting. Although, for the few years that I rode my bike 15 miles to (and from) work every day, I found that under certain circumstances, commuting doesn't have to be so bad.

      But the main thing was coming to terms with the fact that working 40+ hours every week in a job that you don't like just so you can have health insurance and pay credit card debt was not an acceptable way to live. Then, it was just a matter of making my decisions with that in mind.
      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    20. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Wait a second...

      You have a wife and kid... and get 9 hours of UNINTERRUPTED sleep?

      Here I thought 3 hours of interrupted sleep was asking too much.

    21. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You know, Monty, it was during a few weeks, some decade-plus ago, when my wife and daughter were visiting my inlaws and I was home alone, that I found out just how beautiful going to bed early could be.

      When I was in college, and for some years thereafter, I made a living playing in a band. That meant staying out until 4-5am every night, sleeping until after noon, then doing it all over again. Even when I transitioned to a more conventional lifestyle, I was still definitely a night person and would stay up reading late into the night and then sleeping late (on the weekends at least) when I could and hating to wake up in the morning.

      But going to be early, and then finding out just how lovely it is to be awake at 5am when the world is still asleep, was an epiphany for me. Now I've learned that those first few hours of the morning are my most productive. Maybe it's middle age, but I have been transformed into a total morning person and I'm much happier for it.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    22. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      bad mod, not offtopic

    23. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by uncoveror · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The military has been looking for a pill that makes a 24/7 soldier by replacing sleep for a long time. Most of the experiments I have read about did not work as planned. After a while, no pill can stop a sleep deprived individual from suffering a psychotic break from reality as dream images inject themselves into reality.

      This could lead to a so-called super soldier who doesn't need sleep going on a rampage and killing his comrades because he thought he saw the enemy. You can't just replace sleep with a pill. That's a nut we aren't going to crack. That's my two cents.

      --
      The Uncoveror: It's the real news.
    24. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by ILuvRamen · · Score: 1

      exactly and the most important thing is nerve "repair." More like recharging but anyway I stayed up for 23 hours one time and my eyes hurt so bad, nothing but putting my optic nerves offline for 8 hours could make them feel better. It felt a lot like if I didn't get some sleep, I'd damage my nerves. It's completely impossible to use your optic nerves indefinitely without giving them a long time to rest. Plus, certain neurons can't stand up to indefinite use either. The reason they stop working as well is because they need to stop and take a break. If some drugs gets them revved up again, that's some brain damage eventually.

      --
      Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
    25. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank-you so much. You spelled skeptical correctly. I've seen its misspelled so many times that when you spelled it correctly I had to go look it up to make sure.

    26. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by feepness · · Score: 1

      Have your thyroid levels checked.

      I had my thyroid entirely removed due to cancer. I'd never really heard of the gland before. Until they finally got the levels right, it was hell. Constant exhaustion.

    27. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by sowth · · Score: 1

      You need 12 hrs of sleep? Are you sure you don't have some sort of psychological issue (depression?) or physical one (stroke?). I thought 8 hours was the norm, and once you go above 10 or below 6 or 7, you are either pushing things or are ill.

      I had 2 strokes, and I probably vary between needing 8-12 hours of sleep...depending. I also have kidney failure, so that may add some to the mix. Though if I am fairly active for 2 hours or more in a day I may need more sleep, but the pain can keep me from falling asleep. If I am active like that every day, after a week or two, I won't just be sleepy, I will be so tired I cannot stay awake no matter what and when I am awake it can be too painful to be active. It sort of corrects itself.

      You should really talk to a doctor about your condition if you haven't done so, maybe it is treatable.

      I do wonder if this medication could help me some. To at least make it so I can have a more normal level of activity. Who knows.

    28. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      8 hours normal? I don't think I've gotten more than 5 except on a weekend in a good 15 years. 8 is a luxury.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    29. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sleep is like the biological equivalent to defragging a hard drive. I wonder if slower access and data corruption will occur in the long run?

    30. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by dotgain · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I used all my mod points yesterday.

    31. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah well, there isn't an idiotic option

    32. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The big problem with street drugs is that there is no rule of thumb for this kind of stuff. For instance, how much is a line? For me, when I used I'd call a line a quarter gram, some guys would do a lot more. It has a lot to do with the purity of your product (how much is actually coke), the user's weight, the user's tolerance levels, etc. In fact I can remember one rule of thumb that relates to purity, "an eightball in LA is a good party, an eightball in Chicago *might* make you sick, and an eightball in Miami will probably kill you if you use it all in one night" - (paraphrased, this is from a true crime novel of sorts I don't own anymore). In relation to your question, in LA do nine lines of coke, in Chicago do six, in Miami try two and wait a couple of hours for the third. Another thing worth noting here is that some user's develop truly amazing tolerance levels, some using from their early teens all the way into middle age, that's about forty years of drug use, I can't comment on their average life expectancy or much else (you can probably search for some of it), but I can say they use a lot more than the typical user would expect, they also function better while high than their lesser using brethren.

      Recovery, recovery is best when you're with people you can identify with that are clean and sober, when you realize that you and every one else in recovery can identify with each other, because you all used/drank excessively, you've reached a point beyond certain forms of denial. Relapse, relapse often brings back certain forms of denial. Persistence and realization are keys to recovery, realizations can be spiritual, matter of fact, cause and effect, philosophical, a matter of fellowship, etc..., or any combination thereof. In hindsight I'd say normal folk certainly miss out on some things, but many hardcore drug addicts/alcoholics live in a world dominated by poverty and emotional instability (a cross between poor college students and teenagers?).

      I personally, haven't used coke that much at all, meth took me from a casual user to "crack-head-level junkie" in six months, but not everyone is as sensitive to meth as I am, and you can't say my shit wasn't cut with either, or both, coke and small amounts of heroin (remember pulp fiction, you only snort a *small* amount of heroin as opposed to huge lines of coke like Uma Thurman as Mia Wallace - in Pulp Fiction). What surprises me is some people's sensitivity to alcohol, I can't believe my eyes when I see people that need to get 21st-birthday-smashed on a daily basis, regardless of their responsibilities. I think most recreational drugs should be legalized to varying degrees and provided as a legal privilege, like driving. While this is a highly controversial opinion, I'd also settle for someone revoking my ex-wifes right to purchase alcohol for a minimum of three years.

      I think sleep drugs, like those mentioned in the article are very much in line with a need for a legal right to use a certain amount of mood altering substances. Should I be allowed to use the anti-sleep medicine for a vacation in Vegas? Yes, especially if I've been using the shit for work throughout the year. Should I ever be allowed to use it again if I use it to stalk someone? No, not ever again. Should I be allowed/expected to use this stuff if I'm having psychotic episodes? No, I would need to isolate all things that may cause imbalances in my behavioral or emotional state.

    33. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well if they are 9 1 gram lines.... yes, if they are 9 small lines.... no.... I got a ....friend ... who would do about 5-10 lines at a time 4-8 times a night for a small portion of his life. The human body in general can handle 1 gram or so at once before an OD would occur.

    34. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by Vellmont · · Score: 2, Insightful


      Yeah, leave it to science to try to replace the one part of my life that I really, unconditionally adore.

      "Science" isn't trying to replace that, people are trying to do that. Science is just the tool used to accomplish it.

      If you want to blame anything, blame the motivation people have to sleep less and less. The research is funded by the military for pilots, but the interest from the rest of the public comes from that.

      --
      AccountKiller
    35. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      That doesn't make any sense to me. The only reason why sleep feels so good to us is because we need it. If you didn't need it anymore you wouldn't be missing anything.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    36. Re:But can it *replace* sleep? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not true. Despite the name, insomnia is a symptom of FFI. Even if you could get them to sleep, people with FFI would still die rather quickly.

  2. Replacement for sleep? by Wicko · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How can this replace sleep? Muscles need to rest, too. I guess it would be useful for us that need to sleep with one eye open. A drug for the paranoid.

    1. Re:Replacement for sleep? by the_humeister · · Score: 4, Funny

      Exactly. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they're not after you...

    2. Re:Replacement for sleep? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I AM NOT PARANOID!

      (if you are, they notice it)

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Replacement for sleep? by SD-Arcadia · · Score: 1

      Muscles are resting any time they are not contracting you don't need to be sleeping. According to my humble PSY undergrad knowledge, sleep is almost exclusively for the nervous system (that includes the brain). But the exact function is very elusive. For example, I think I recall you can keep a mammal alive indefinitely if you feed and allow it enough rest in a non-sleeping state.

      --
      https://dalgamotor.wordpress.com/ - Elektronik beyinlere ozgurluk asisi (Turkish)
    4. Re:Replacement for sleep? by thePig · · Score: 1

      I am no expert in this area, but if all the functions of sleep are so easily replaceable, then wouldn't nature have done so long before?
      Being in a state of very low alertness in a jungle is something which would have been filtered out by evolution long long ago.

      --
      rajmohan_h@yahoo.com
    5. Re:Replacement for sleep? by nguy · · Score: 1

      Being in a state of very low alertness in a jungle is something which would have been filtered out by evolution long long ago.

      Actually, resting motionless and quietly in a safe place when you can't see and can't defend yourself is a good thing for survival, and if a predator should find you, you're no worse off, since you wake up immediately.

      In fact, one hypothesis about the origin of sleep is that it occurred exactly in order to keep animals out of trouble.

    6. Re:Replacement for sleep? by vertinox · · Score: 1

      How can this replace sleep?

      Its not intended to replace sleep.
      Secondly DARPA usually doesn't do research for public consumption. Eventually it would get there, but for now its going straight to the military.
      My bet would be this is aimed for fighter/bomber pilots running 48 hour shifts.
      Currently one of the most proscribed drugs in the Airforce is of course the same drugs narcoleptic people use.

      Actually, this is straight of a sci-fi military book about war in 2020 I read once. Can't remember the name but the one of the key elements of the story was that soldiers would take a pill that would keep them up for 72 hours straight so they could constantly fight during that time without the need for sleep. However, the fall back is they needed to crash hard afterwards because if they took another pill it would cause permanent damage to their bodies.

      I'm sure the same thing would apply to users of this drug. Chances are its not intended to replace long term sleep but rather keep the user active for short period of times when being awake and alert is critical.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    7. Re:Replacement for sleep? by vertinox · · Score: 1

      I am no expert in this area, but if all the functions of sleep are so easily replaceable

      Actually many animals hunt or graze at certain times of the time. It would be rather wasteful for them to up all the time moving about when conditions aren't right for their normal eating habits.

      Imagine a bat unable to sleep during the day or a bear unable to sleep during hibernation.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    8. Re:Replacement for sleep? by Viper+Daimao · · Score: 1
      Good job slashdot:

      Researchers seem cautious to bill the treatment as a replacement for sleep
      Story headline:

      Snortable Drug 'Replaces' Sleep For Monkeys In Trials
      --
      "In the game of life, someone always has to lose. To me, if life were fair, that someone would always be Oklahoma." -DKR
    9. Re:Replacement for sleep? by Jartan · · Score: 1

      I am no expert in this area, but if all the functions of sleep are so easily replaceable, then wouldn't nature have done so long before?
      Being in a state of very low alertness in a jungle is something which would have been filtered out by evolution long long ago.


      Do you have any idea how many calories a well fit body uses? The kind of animal that lives in the wild uses a lot of energy. It's only natural that they'd go into some form or powered down mode during periods where the energy cost of hunting for food is unlikely to be met by the food actually found.

      It's simply hibernation writ small.
    10. Re:Replacement for sleep? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Insightful? IN-FUCKING-SIGHTFUL? Go fuck yourself, mods.

    11. Re:Replacement for sleep? by Wicko · · Score: 1

      Oh, I had no idea. I guess its just happens to be convenient enough to let your muscles rest while you sleep, a "welcome side effect" if you will. I think its exact function is to keep us from going crazy, we all need to stop thinking at some point in time.

    12. Re:Replacement for sleep? by Wicko · · Score: 1

      I had no idea they run 48 hours shifts. But I guess they do have some time to rest while being refueled. This sounds more likely to happen during a time of war though, I have trouble seeing the benefit of keeping a pilot in the air for 2 days straight. Do they not have enough pilots to keep a certain amount up in the air or something? I really am naive about those kinds of things haha. Also, I live in Canada, so I really know nothing about your military.

    13. Re:Replacement for sleep? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently unattributed Nirvana lyrics are brilliant.

    14. Re:Replacement for sleep? by gogodidi · · Score: 1

      that was the parents point. If it is easy for humans to avoid sleep with no side effects, it would have been introduced to the (and kept in the) gene pool a long time ago. His point being that because we are still sleeping, sleep is important and NOT easily replacable.

      --
      ugh...
    15. Re:Replacement for sleep? by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 1

      I am no expert in this area, but if all the functions of sleep are so easily replaceable, then wouldn't nature have done so long before?

      Nah. Nature hasn't solved the problem of viruses or cancer, either. Some problems need solutions that aren't forthcoming from nature.

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
    16. Re:Replacement for sleep? by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 1

      I don't know about 48 hours, but the idea behind the B-2 bomber was that it would take off from Missouri, fly halfway across the world, bomb Baghdad, and return to Missouri refueling in midflight when necessary. All of that requires the pilot to be awake, ESPECIALLY the mid-air refueling. Pilots these days take amphetamines to stay alert. It makes sense that the military is working on alternatives.

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
    17. Re:Replacement for sleep? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      In fact, one hypothesis about the origin of sleep is that it occurred exactly in order to keep animals out of trouble.
      Turning in early has definitely kept me out of trouble. More than once.
      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    18. Re:Replacement for sleep? by lilfields · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't nature be solving it through us? I don't know the rules of what "nature" is but I figure that conscious thought and reasoning exists for some reason.

  3. 2 am post by Plazmid · · Score: 4, Funny

    A 2 am post about a drug to replace sleep, now isn't that ironic!

    1. Re:2 am post by RealGrouchy · · Score: 3, Informative

      A 2 am post about a drug to replace sleep, now isn't that ironic! No, it isn't:

      ironic (comparative more ironic, superlative most ironic)
      Adjective
            1. Both coincidental and contradictory in a humorous or poignant and extremely improbable way.


      - RG>
      --
      Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
    2. Re:2 am post by Plazmid · · Score: 1

      It is coincidental and humorous in an improbable way.

    3. Re:2 am post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live in New York, you insensitive clod!

    4. Re:2 am post by skeftomai · · Score: 1

      ...but not contradictory.

    5. Re:2 am post by yafujifide · · Score: 1

      A 2 am post about a drug to replace sleep, now isn't that appropriate!

    6. Re:2 am post by Plunky · · Score: 3, Funny

      yes it is

    7. Re:2 am post by GuruBuckaroo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No it isn't.

      --
      Poor means hoping the toothache goes away.
    8. Re:2 am post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not ironic; it's just good marketing. That's your target audience.

    9. Re:2 am post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, it isn't.

    10. Re:2 am post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rabbit season!

    11. Re:2 am post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes it is.

    12. Re:2 am post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Talking about a drug to eliminate sleep at 2 AM when most people are asleep? Sure!

    13. Re:2 am post by fyrecraka · · Score: 1

      Now thats some funny stuff. Who is really up at 2AM reading and talking about this??

  4. replacement vs supplement by Bananatree3 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I doubt this drug would permanently replace sleep without some form of side-effect. However, I'm sure it could work as a good "supplement" to sleep for periods of time where awareness is crucial. A low side effect No Doze?

    1. Re:replacement vs supplement by the_fat_kid · · Score: 1

      I would expect the same sort of super paranoia and psychosis that you see in speed freeks.
      that kind of mental and psychical degradation comes mostly from the fact that tweekers don't sleep. Meth does terrible things to your insides but the crazy behavior comes mostly from the lack of sleepy time.
      I bet a day or two every once and a while works fine. 4 or 5 24 hour shifts a week, driving a truck? I think that I would not like to be involved in that.
      sleep is a GOOD thing. People might try getting more sleep, not less. If it's "really got to get there" you might consider more than one driver.
      just my $.02

      --
      -- Sig under construction...
  5. Monkey Trials? by iminplaya · · Score: 1

    Set the wayback machine to 1925, Sherman.

    On the other hand, we might get some Shakespeare out of the little critters yet.

    --
    What?
    1. Re:Monkey Trials? by Bastard+of+Subhumani · · Score: 1

      I knew it was only a matter of time before they started traning as lawyers.

      --
      Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
  6. Will Smith said not to research crazy new drugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    You know who else don't need sleep?

    Zombies.

    1. Re:Will Smith said not to research crazy new drugs by Cctoide · · Score: 1

      Good point.

      To the headcrab lab!

      --
      "Let's face it, it's a good story. Accuracy would kill it."
    2. Re:Will Smith said not to research crazy new drugs by Penguinoflight · · Score: 1

      I thought you were going to say Hitler.

      --
      "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
      1 John 4:14
  7. A world without sleep by Plazmid · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What will happen if we ever find a way to truly avoid sleep? Will it become a requirement that we take the drug to work for a certain company? Will the company only hire people who take the anti-sleep drug or pay more to those who take it because they work longer. Will companies whose employees take anti-sleep pills 'out-compete' those who don't? Could the world eventually end up sleepless?

    1. Re:A world without sleep by Coldness · · Score: 1

      It'd be interesting for sure. If they could truly replace every single function of sleep in human beings with a single, mass-producible drug the human race could be a lot more efficient in countless ways. It scares me to think of how much it'd change society, though.

    2. Re:A world without sleep by name*censored* · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Like you've implied, if we DID ever find a way to avoid sleep, we'd simply end up filling our new-found time with more work. All we'd be doing is making ourselves physically/emotionally exhausted, with precious little time to even rest. Add this to the fact that we'd be taking some horrible drug that would no doubt make people feel uneasy due to the loss of their circadian rhythm, and you've got yourself one miserable world to live in.

      Will it become a requirement that we take the drug to work for a certain company?
      Any sensible company which required 24 hour staffing would still resort to shift workers, unless there was some major advantage to compensate the natural loss of efficiency of people working ridiculously long shifts. The company would need to pay much more to compensate the single workers' efforts and drug-taking than it would have to pay 2 or 3 shift workers. The only way that a society of sleeplessness could occur is if there was suddenly a massive shortage of jobs, and people had to sacrifice to get a job (which seems to be getting more unlikely - the "baby boomer" population is retiring and there are scarcely enough people to fill the jobs). It's much more likely that once a sizeable population starts taking the drug, society will simply expect more of people (in terms of social status/affluence), and people will take these pills to out-compete each other in the EXTRA-CURRICULAR field(s) (which may extend to the work environment).
      --
      Commodore64_love: I don't comprehend people who're so frightened of death that they'll bankrupt themselves to stay alive
    3. Re:A world without sleep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kress wrote about the same idea in Beggars In Spain.

      Our economy would insist on soaking up some of the extra labor hours, though it already has more than it can do anything useful with. But I certainly wouldn't voluntarily miss a third of my life the way I am now.

    4. Re:A world without sleep by Yvanhoe · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Well sleepless people would consume more (probably 6 meals a day) and would have more leisure time as well. This require more work/money. The important statistic is the ratio between time spent at work and time spent having fun.

      Also, even if it shorten the lifespan of individuals when counted in days of life, it would be interesting to see if it extends it when counted in "awaken hours".

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    5. Re:A world without sleep by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      "The candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long" - Tyrell, Blade Runner

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    6. Re:A world without sleep by infidel13 · · Score: 1

      As far as society expecting more of people is concerned, I would think that people would try to out-compete each other in job performance as well as leisure activities. Imagine what an extra eight hours every single day could do for one's career (assuming that it didn't impact performance), and then think about what would happen if a few hundred thousand career-minded people thought of that. Society as a whole would shift toward longer work hours, and if the workers were salaried, compensation would likely not increase substantially. People would be doing more work for (proportionally) less pay, even if it took a few years, or even a generation, for the changes to occur.

      Furthermore, if you're inclined to be skeptical, just think of what life used to be like before widespread cheap electric light was available - most people got at least nine hours of sleep - it was dark, there was little to do, and lighting was weak and expensive. Now, since economic and leisure activity is feasible 24 hours per day, the average American sleeps only about 7.6 hours per night (according to this government source), limited primarily by the biological necessity of sleep. If that necessity is removed (or at least obscured, as I suspect that this compound would do, since the functions of sleep are still poorly understood), sleep hours will correspondingly decrease, likely to near non-existence.

      --
      quia potentia mens mentis
  8. Pilots on meth? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 0

    So, does that imply that our pilots, right now, today, are flying around on meth? I realize that there's a world of difference between a monitored person in excellent health taking a medication under close medical supervision, and some junkie shooting up in an alley, but that's still a weird thought.

    --
    Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    1. Re:Pilots on meth? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Amphetamine != Methamphetamine.

      Not all amphetamine has a methyl group attached to it. Most pilots that require drugs like this use Dexedrine (dextro-amphetamine).

    2. Re:Pilots on meth? by cheater512 · · Score: 2, Funny

      No no no of course pilots arent taking meth while flying.

      Its just the military pilots. You know, the ones with nukes strapped to their plane. :D

    3. Re:Pilots on meth? by pembo13 · · Score: 1

      History is filled with armies fueled by foreign chemicals that may be label as "drugs". I'm just a little sadder to know that apparently so much effort is still going into war (and I consider myself to be all for violence).

      --
      "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    4. Re:Pilots on meth? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      The amphetamines used by pilots are very slow-acting (by amphetamine standards) so they don't produce quite as much of the "jittery high" that is usually associated with their more common forms. 8+ hours later when the amphetamine pill finally wears off and the pilot is capable of sleeping again he will, if by no other means than running out of fuel, have ended the mission and found a safer place to catch up on the missed sleep. Potent stimulants have been used by combat troops since WWII so various world militaries have presumably become the reigning experts by now on their effects when used in extreme moderation.

      The aforementioned controls notwithstanding, I'd much rather have pilots with nukes alert at the end of a 20-hr flight than dozing off. I'll put this into context for my fellow geeks: If you've ever been sleep-deprived at a LAN Party I'm sure you realize how much microsleep can throw off your aim and timing. Now double that no-sleep time, add in stress from the real threat of being shot down, and replace your mouse with the targeting mechanism for a 10-ton precision bomb that really shouldn't end up in the preschool next door (collateral damage?) ;)

      Long-haul truckers, on the other hand, have a jittery high from the no-doze and a pretty debilitating crash on its way long before the end of their route. That being said, I like to make the generalization that awake people are universally safer than sleeping people when it comes to controlling large masses of fast-moving metal and even more so when you add combustible/hazardous materials.

    5. Re:Pilots on meth? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      To be perfectly honest, yes many USAF pilots use a derivative of methamphetamines commonly referred to as "Go-Pills". When you're making a 16 hour flight just ---to--- your bombing target, it helps to stay awake and alert. Especially if you expect resistance when you arrive. They're only legal if you're on flight status, monitored intensely by a physician, and get off them as soon as mission allows.

    6. Re:Pilots on meth? by Scrameustache · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The amphetamines used by pilots are very slow-acting (by amphetamine standards) so they don't produce quite as much of the "jittery high" that is usually associated with their more common forms. [...] I'd much rather have pilots with nukes alert at the end of a 20-hr flight than dozing off.

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1956983.stm

      mourning at a ceremony for the four soldiers killed by US "friendly fire" in Afghanistan. A US F-16 dropped a 227-kilogram bomb on the men while they were taking part in a live-fire training exercise near Kandahar.
      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    7. Re:Pilots on meth? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      227-kilogram bomb

      You sure that wasn't a 226-kilogram bomb?

    8. Re:Pilots on meth? by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what I said to get modded down. I was just asking if the implication was true and wasn't passing judgement on it.

      It was meant in the same way that a few years ago I might have asked if people were really using botulism toxin for cosmetic treatments. It makes sense in its way and apparently the powers the be have studied the heck out of it, but it's still a little weird when you sit back and think of it.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    9. Re:Pilots on meth? by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      Isn't it dextroamphetamine? I use it moderately for ADD or when I find myself sleeping too much.

      It would be nice to have something with less side effects and tolerance, etc.

  9. Supplement by Plazmid · · Score: 1

    Gosh, you can sell anything as a supplement these days even lead, you just have to have the obligatory "not intended to cure or treat any disease," on it and your good.

    1. Re:Supplement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      you just have to have the obligatory "not intended to cure or treat any disease," on it and your good.

      And my good what?

    2. Re:Supplement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      your != you're

  10. Why not modafinil? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Provigil (modafinil) has been shown to remove the need for sleep for days on end without any side effects, including the fun ones, like euphoria. Why are pilots still popping dexies?

    1. Re:Why not modafinil? by Torvaun · · Score: 1

      Maybe they like the euphoria. Maybe dexies have other benefits other than delaying the need for sleep.

      --
      I see your informative link, and raise you a pithy comment.
    2. Re:Why not modafinil? by Plunky · · Score: 1
      I'm sure that commercial pilots aren't doing that since the autopilot is flying the plane and there is more than one pilot on board, so a nap is feasible.

      I wonder why long haul military pilots are any different, surely they also have more than one person on board?

    3. Re:Why not modafinil? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They both make you feel euphoria, though mondafinil isn't as fun and you can't increase the dose as much as you can with amps without feeling jittery. It really depends on the person though, I've known people who get extreme euphoria form 0.5mg of amphetamine and people who can't really feel anything even after taking 100mg. The real problem with military pilots taking them IMO, is the obsessiveness and overconfidence they cause.

    4. Re:Why not modafinil? by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      Amphetamines have an effect on the dopamine system, so yes, I expect the there are effects from it that don't happen with these newer drugs. Also, not everyone gets euphoria, as [side] effects can vary with each person -- another reason one drug rarely completely replaces another one.

  11. All we've got is... by n1000 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ..."No apparent side effects"

    More research needs to be done before we can have a worthwhile discussion of this as a "sleep replacement."

    Also, this would not be a permanent replacement, so no trying to bash this study with the 'The human body needs sleep' argument.

    1. Re:All we've got is... by cp.tar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I do wonder if it can be applied as a quick fix.

      It would have to work nearly instantly, though... imagine a sleepy driver. The car's computer can detect the drowsiness, make a surprising, loud noise to snap the driver awake, and spray a mist of this drug in his face. Enough to get home safely, but not enough to hamper the real sleep he'll get when he gets home.

      --
      Ignore this signature. By order.
    2. Re:All we've got is... by nbritton · · Score: 1

      Provigil (Modafinil) can already do what you and this article describe... The only down side is that it costs $250 a month.

    3. Re:All we've got is... by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

      I do wonder if it can be applied as a quick fix.

      It would have to work nearly instantly, though... imagine a sleepy driver. The car's computer can detect the drowsiness, make a surprising, loud noise to snap the driver awake, and spray a mist of this drug in his face. Enough to get home safely, but not enough to hamper the real sleep he'll get when he gets home. "We've secretly replaced Joe's Sleep-B-Gone with new Folger's pepper spray. Can he tell the difference? Let's watch."
      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    4. Re:All we've got is... by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "...spray a mist of this drug in his face"

      "Aaagh! My eyes!" Hilarity ensues.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  12. Speculation by localman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Without having performed any research at all, I'm going to speculate that actual sleep is very important. In the wild it is dangerous to be unconscious for hours at a time. If it wasn't absolutely necessary, then nature would have found a way to avoid it. Or, more correctly stated, not needing sleep would seem to be a pretty amazing advantage.

    But, almost anything with measurable cognitive abilities needs sleep. So there must be some very important work going on there. Probably laying down neural hardlines where temporary chemicals were making pathways before? I'm just guessing, but it's got to be something that requires a partial shutdown.

    I think the technology is cool and would be useful for some things, though. I'm always in favor of exploring the outer limits of our abilities. It will be very interesting to see what happens if a person uses this chemical sleep exclusively for, say weeks at a time. Maybe we'll learn what sleep is really for by seeing what stops working correctly. My guess is that they'll not be able to recall anything beyond the past couple days. Things that happened too far back in their wakefulness will not get layed down as long term memories and will be permanently lost.

    That is, it'll be kind of like Memento except with, say, a 72 hour working memory instead of 10 minutes.

    1. Re:Speculation by timmarhy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      my bet is that they go insane before anything else. supressing the urge to sleep is very different to replacing sleep, in the same fashion that being constipated is not a replacment for taking a shit.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    2. Re:Speculation by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 4, Interesting

      A lot of this is already known to science. There is a family that (I think) has a prion disease such that if a family member gets it, they stay awake until they die a few months later - and it sounds like a very horrible death too.

      Here's a link to the story I heard about.

      http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6503414

    3. Re:Speculation by Danny+Rathjens · · Score: 1

      There is a flaw in your idea that evolution only ends up keeping that which is absolutely necessary for survival. Sometimes evolution ends up keeping features that are detrimental to creature's survival or reproductive ability in the short run for some indirect "purpose". Consider the huge and awkward tail of the peacock or the vulnerable external genitalia we male humans have.

      Perhaps needing to be unconscious for hours at a time is one of the reasons many animals have to join together in groups, and those groups are where the benefit is. If that, or something like it, were the case, then we might not need to sleep anymore if we can avoid the physiological mechanisms that cause it.

    4. Re:Speculation by Disseminated · · Score: 5, Funny

      Well that sure beats the hell out of a car analogy!

    5. Re:Speculation by evilviper · · Score: 1

      In the wild it is dangerous to be unconscious for hours at a time. If it wasn't absolutely necessary, then nature would have found a way to avoid it.

      Being unconscious may well have been slightly less of a disadvantage than the gains animals get from it. Growing to 3 meters tall would have been an amazing advantage as well, and it's not inherently necessary for humans to be 1/3rd shorter, as we are.

      Sleep may well just be a method to conserve energy (see: hibernation) during the useless hours of the day, when an animal isn't going to be able to find food anyhow. If you need to rest for 1/3rd of the day to recover from physical exertion, maybe being unconscious isn't that much more of a leap. Perhaps varying levels of unconsciousness, and the ability to wake up at a moment's notice upon hearing a threatening sound, mitigated the dangers in the wild (see: cat naps).
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    6. Re:Speculation by kawdyr · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually, one important theory of sleep says the opposite - that we evolved it to keep us OUT of trouble - saving energy and avoiding roaming, which puts us at greater risk of meeting predators. As I recall, this theory is (partially) supported by diet being one of the best predictors of the amount of sleep an animal needs. Of course if that was sleep's only purpose, you'd think we'd stay conscious for it so we could react to a predator that found us... so it's probably quite multi-faceted. Sleep - See preservation and protection theory

    7. Re:Speculation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe it's a kernel update.

      I've also done no research on sleep, but would being awake 24h really be a survival advantage?
      Our eyes are bad for seeing at night.
      Maybe lying down and not moving at night meant you were less likely to be found and eaten by something that can see well in the dark.

      That would make sleep redundant now.

    8. Re:Speculation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the other hand ... who knows, maybe this will be an effective treatment for that syndrome!

    9. Re:Speculation by gregor-e · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The selective pressures of the environment are radically altered by presence or absence of daylight. This profound change results in two separate ecosystems. Sleep is a hack to enable survival in both worlds. Those species best adapted to a lit world will find their more restless members get eaten if they don't sit absolutely still at night. And vice-versa. Evolving to be competitive in both worlds is a much taller order. Evolution settles for the first solution that assures reproduction, not the ultimate ideal solution. Because this hack has been around since our microbial days, other architectural features have evolved around it as a given. Removing the need for sleep will require addressing all of these features built up around sleep, not just alertness.

    10. Re:Speculation by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Consider the huge and awkward tail of the peacock

      Neccessary to attract a mate; increases the chances of breeding.

      or the vulnerable external genitalia we male humans have.

      Neccessary to keep the sperm at optimal temperature, which is lower than the optimal temperature for the rest of the body. Increases your chances of breeding, and isn't actually all that vulnerable; if an enemy is close enough to kick you in the balls, it is close enough to rip out your throat.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    11. Re:Speculation by Deaddy · · Score: 1

      >>Probably laying down neural hardlines where temporary chemicals were making pathways before? As far as I know it's really something like that. I've seen an experiment from a researcher group (iirc from the Frauenhofer Institut in Germany) on TV, where they measured the performance of people in a reaction-game and their brain-activity in order to see if the brain learns while sleeping. The result was that the brain was very active at night, especially the areas they used for learning the game and the next day the tested people also performed much better. So at least if you want to increase your skills sleep probably will be important, however I don't know if this is that necessary if you only want to nuke someone.

    12. Re:Speculation by nguy · · Score: 1

      In the wild it is dangerous to be unconscious for hours at a time. If it wasn't absolutely necessary, then nature would have found a way to avoid it.

      In the wild, sleep is a good thing: it keeps animals quiet, motionless, and out of trouble when they can't function and/or when their energy balance would be bad. They still wake up immediately if there is danger.

      Animals can easily adapt to avoid sleep if their ecological niche requires it, but for most, sleep is a good thing from the point of survival.

    13. Re:Speculation by nguy · · Score: 2, Informative

      The disease involves the buildup of plaques in the thalamus; that would eventually kill you even without sleep deprivation. So, most likely, both death and insomnia are separate manifestations of a common, underlying, fatal disease.

    14. Re:Speculation by memfrob · · Score: 3, Funny

      There is a family that (I think) has a prion disease such that if a family member gets it, they stay awake until they die a few months later - and it sounds like a very horrible death too.

      *shudder* That's the sort of horror story that keeps me up at night...

      --
      The Wizard utters the word 'frobnoid!' and cackles gleefully
    15. Re:Speculation by DigitalHammer · · Score: 1

      On the upside, at least they can survive the aliens from a really bad recent science fiction horror movie. :P

    16. Re:Speculation by hollywoodb · · Score: 1

      But lions sleep a lot.

      (The previous statement is based entirely on the twenty minutes of Animal Planet I caught earlier this week.)

      --
      I may have to share this planet with animals, but I'm doing my damn best to eat every last one of them.
    17. Re:Speculation by cmdr_tofu · · Score: 1

      Perhaps predator avoidance is one of the purposes of sleep. However, animals which in nature generally have no predators like for instance a pride of lions (the group not a single lion) still sleep. Also after having seen my puppy try to devour a nest of sleeping mice he dug
      up, I'm not so sure sleep offers much of a predator avoidance advantage at all...

      Jokes aside, rather than replace sleep with a snortable drug, a useful advantage for me would
      be able to replace non REM sleep with a period of sleep-eating, like a horse. That would save time during the day that I spend chewing and I'd be able to still gain the benefits of sleep. Also if I was asleep, hopefully I could trick myself into eating healthier foods :)

    18. Re:Speculation by willy_me · · Score: 1

      Interesting.. I have always thought this but did not know it was a popular theory.

      you'd think we'd stay conscious for it so we could react to a predator that found us

      My explanation for this is that we evolved as a social species that worked in groups. It is also important to note that we sleep in cycles - only going into deep sleep for a small part of the night. Combine these two facts and one can see how sleeping in a group would result in at least part of the group always being alert to predators.

      The question of why we require these small amounts of deep sleep has yet to be answered. There is likely a very important reason. But I would not be surprised if the non-deep sleep could be safely eliminated with the help of drugs.

      ps, I have narcolepsy (ie, my brain does not produce the chemical required to go into deep sleep) - hence my interest in the subject.

    19. Re:Speculation by PachmanP · · Score: 1

      Well that sure beats the hell out of a car analogy!

      Well that sure beats the shit out of a car analogy!

      Fixed that for you.
      --
      You're thinking small. Why miniaturize the laser, when we could instead enlarge the sharks? -John Searle
    20. Re:Speculation by PachmanP · · Score: 1

      note to self...
      hit preview, look at preview, post

      --
      You're thinking small. Why miniaturize the laser, when we could instead enlarge the sharks? -John Searle
    21. Re:Speculation by PhotoGuy · · Score: 1

      The Wiki article on it makes it sound more like a progressive brain disorder, with insomnia being one of the stages. That is, it sounds like the death is due to the progression of the disease, not *due* to the insomnia which occurs in one of the stages...

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    22. Re:Speculation by mrv20 · · Score: 1

      The previous statement is based entirely on the twenty minutes of Animal Planet I caught earlier this week."
      That makes it considerably better researched than most comments here ;o)
      --
      "Algebraical symbols are used when you don't know what you are talking about" - BCS
    23. Re:Speculation by The+One+and+Only · · Score: 1

      Jokes aside, rather than replace sleep with a snortable drug, a useful advantage for me would be able to replace non REM sleep with a period of sleep-eating, like a horse. That would save time during the day that I spend chewing and I'd be able to still gain the benefits of sleep. Also if I was asleep, hopefully I could trick myself into eating healthier foods :)

      That sounds great, if you don't enjoy eating. I prefer to be awake for it personally.

      --
      In Repressive Burma, it's not just your connection that dies. slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=314547&cid=20819199
  13. A quote from my high school days by PinkyGigglebrain · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Thanks to modern chemistry sleep is now optional"

    This sort of stuff creeps me out. As BWJones commented, we don't know enough about exactly how sleep works and what its function is in our mental health to start eliminating it by messing with the brain's chemistry. This will likely end up being abused by someone, be it the military, commercial pilots, or students trying to cram for a test, or some sicko as part of a brain washing regime, it doesn't matter, it will happen and it won't be pretty.

    I'll stick with coffee thank you very much.

  14. Sleep in a can by Starvingboy · · Score: 0

    For YEARS I've been saying the first person to make sleep in a can would make a fortune. Being able to work all night, then "Catch up" on my sleep while driving to all day classes would be awesome.

    1. Re:Sleep in a can by nacturation · · Score: 1

      Being able to work all night, then "Catch up" on my sleep while driving to all day classes would be awesome. I don't think others on the road would appreciate you sleeping while driving to your classes.
      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    2. Re:Sleep in a can by Starvingboy · · Score: 0

      I think you misunderstand. I meant you would have the ability to reach into the back seat and grab a can of "8 hours quality sleep". IF (and I remain skeptical) this crap works as advertised, you could lead a double life and catch up on actual factual sleep on weekends. As is, I and many people I know DO drive while half asleep. We have a running joke about the car's "Auto-drive" system.

    3. Re:Sleep in a can by kni52 · · Score: 1

      The problem I see is if we are given the ability to gain another 8 hours a day it wouldn't stay just an extra 8 ours for ourselves. Certainly our employers, schools, etc. would quickly come to expect some of that time and we would quickly be left with the same 2-4 hours for ourselves that we currently get. I would like to have the option to occasionally choose to skip some sleep or even a whole night without having to struggle through the next day.

      --
      My subtext is just a figment of your imagination.
  15. lan party! by nilbog · · Score: 1

    ZOMG this is going to lead to some absolutely heinous lan parties!

    --
    or else!
    1. Re:lan party! by JCota · · Score: 0

      Finally I won't be the first one asleep in those endless hours of playing.... w00t! And to really think of it why am I awake at 5:30 in the morning??? I should have been to sleep hours ago.

  16. In related news... by pushing-robot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...Sysadmins have recently discovered they can improve uptime by eliminating routine maintenance.

    --
    How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
    1. Re:In related news... by thegrassyknowl · · Score: 1

      ..Sysadmins have recently discovered they can improve uptime by eliminating routine maintenance.

      s/Sysadmins/Managers/

      Sysadmins know that regular scheduled downtime is necessary to keep things running smoothly. A well designed system can take certain parts offline without causing a noticible loss of service. The human brain runs roughly similarly; parts can come and go from service (sleep, etc) and the brain will keep running.

      Regular scheduled downtime in controlled conditions keeps your machine running smoothly. Ignoring the routine maintenance and just keeping up 24x7x365x? will wind up with a critical failure in the xeon reprocessing unit (random BOFH excuse) that causes a downtime of indeterminate length while you wait for said EOL'd critical part to be shipped in from China.

      The body is really no different. Sleep is the time that it does all the routine maintenance and even makes some fairly extensive repairs.

      --
      I drink to make other people interesting!
    2. Re:In related news... by BosstonesOwn · · Score: 1

      Man that joke flew right over your head.

      I was wondering what the managers here were giving us to keep us going. hmmm more powdered donuts please!

      --
      This package Does Not Contain a Winner
    3. Re:In related news... by clark0r · · Score: 1

      i would mod this funny if i had points

    4. Re:In related news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If Microsoft built our bodies, would this mean we would have to be killed and brought back to life weekly?

  17. Gamers will love this by phalse+phace · · Score: 1

    Gamers in Taiwan, Korea, China, et al. have been dying for this.....

  18. Zombocalypse! by TheBlunderbuss · · Score: 1

    Boy if this doesn't sound like the beginnings of a real-life zombie infestation!
    http://www.zombiehunters.org/

  19. Some people already do live without sleep by enigma48 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    A few years back, I did some reading from a semi-reliable source (maybe Reader's Digest) about two people in the world who can't sleep for more than a few minutes.

    One was a guy in his twenties who lived in Israel. An explosion left some shrapnel in his brain and could no longer sleep. When I read the story, he was just finishing a Law degree.

    Another story was about an older man in Germany who hadn't been able to sleep at least since his teens. He was 50ish and could sleep for up to 5 minutes at best. He lived a relatively normal life.

    Obviously in some cases, the body can adjust to getting by without sleep - I wonder if their bodies learned how to overproduce this chemical?

    1. Re:Some people already do live without sleep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Image a beowulf cluster of these guys...

      In all seriousness, this is the second time I mention on slashdot that a SciFi-like success of man over sleep will just mean the immediate implementation of a new world-wide workweek. Those behind the curve in making the transition will have serious health issues if they compete against a new mainstream of people who'll work, say, 15-hour days. Talk about needing a daily vacation from work!

      Ever heard the phrase "rest in peace?" Sleep is relaxing, if anything is to be said in its defense. Otherwise, we only have death. Meditation isn't used as much as it should, and I don't see the status quo of hyperenabled lives turning to a more meditative workday to re-implement that "brain-death" sanity that sleep grants us from our busy lives.

    2. Re:Some people already do live without sleep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      polyphasic sleep, look into it.

  20. I Am Legend... by skeftomai · · Score: 1

    ...anyone?

    1. Re:I Am Legend... by coldcell · · Score: 1
      A movie about a mutated viral cure for cancer that turns humans into light-sensitive, non-functioning crazies, compared with a drug designed to temporarily alleviate sleep symptoms?

      I'm all for zombie scares, but this one seems a little too far.

      --
      Launchy.net changed my world.
  21. So what I'm left wondering is by skulgnome · · Score: 1

    Considering that the brain doesn't get any rest like it's supposed to, on this dope... Will users go utterly batshit nuts from not having slept at the six or eleven day mark? Like speed freaks who've stayed up all week.

  22. If only... by thatskinnyguy · · Score: 1

    Man my productivity would increase in and out of work. My muscles get enough rest sitting in an idle state at my desk for 8 hours a day as it is. It's almost like they get a full-night's rest. If only my brain would stay awake past 2 in the afternoon...

    --
    The game.
  23. Snortable? What filters? by daveb · · Score: 1

    Am I the only one who clicked on this carelessly wondering what new snort filters someone was playing with?

  24. The Candle That Burns Brighter.. by Layth · · Score: 1

    Electric shock will keep you awake too. In fact, I'm reminded of a study where rats were jolted awake every time REM was detected. Eventually they died, and from what I understand humans will eventually die if they are sufficiently sleep deprived as well. Sleep is healthy, and that should be obvious. Equally obvious is the fact that some people will abuse drugs to increase their productivity. The candle that burns brighter, melts away faster. People will make their own decisions, with their own lives. No law is going to change that. As long as they're not cracked out, trying to rob me and score another sleepless night I say live and let die.

    1. Re:The Candle That Burns Brighter.. by hyades1 · · Score: 1

      And then, of course, the people you work for will start using all those little off-the-books tricks like suggestions about advancement, sudden "discipline problems" after 15 years of stellar service, hints about needing to "rationalize staffing levels" and such to make damned sure not only that you use the drug, but that you give all that extra time you'll have available to the company.

      --
      I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    2. Re:The Candle That Burns Brighter.. by Layth · · Score: 1

      Touché! This is an excellent point. Being my own boss, and have worked through the night yet again - I should have realized it on my own accord.
      Now if you'll excuse me, it's back to slowly killing myself.. coding my application for 8+ months that has yet to see the light of day.

    3. Re:The Candle That Burns Brighter.. by hyades1 · · Score: 1

      Been there, done that...though not in a tech field. I feel your pain (well, exhaustion, at least).

      --
      I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
  25. there is also fatal familial insomnia, however. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6822468/

    I'm not certain about your information about being able to survive without sleep. There's also what happens to people with severe sleep apnea which can cause heart problems, problems with the metabolism, paranoia, depression, anxiety and high blood pressure.

    1. Re:there is also fatal familial insomnia, however. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apnea is not the same thing at all as inability to sleep due to an altered brain chemistry.

      Patients with apnea do in fact sleep for periods, the inability to sleep caused by an unconcious physical action that allows the throat to close (or breathing to stop). This eventually triggers an autonomic physical reaction in the body - to gasp for air. It is that physical reaction that wakens the subject.

      What apnea patients *can* suffer from is lack of REM sleep - they just can't stay asleep long enough ... and that has been linked with all of the ailments you cite ...

    2. Re:there is also fatal familial insomnia, however. by mcbiondi · · Score: 1

      This article isn't about health problems due to failure to sleep. It's about dying from a fatal disorder where one of the symptoms is failure to be able to sleep. Sad, interesting, but not relevant to the discussion.

  26. Dear God! by krs804 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Don't let my boss see this.

  27. Snorting by cluke · · Score: 1

    As an aside, who discovered "snorting" as a delivery mechanism for drugs (as opposed to eating or smoking)? And why do people only snort certain drugs, what makes those particular ones suitable?

    (I will leave the discussion on suppositories for another day ;-)

    1. Re:Snorting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Snorting and breathing aerosols are both quick ways to get molecules directly into the bloodstream, almost as good as injection without demanding the same precautions and skill. Smoking is just a low-tech way of mixing an aerosol with cumulative toxins, and digestion is slow, unpredictable, and breaks down some active ingredients. Which is best probably depends on molecule size (which barriers can it cross) and stability (is it getting there intact) and likely harm to exposed tissues (which chewing tobacco and snorting cocaine are infamous for).

    2. Re:Snorting by coldcell · · Score: 1
      I am no pharmacologist, but...

      Perhaps only certain drugs can be powdered fine enough for decent distribution over the nasal capilliary system, and maybe some others (heroin, see Pulp Fiction) would produce much too extreme a reaction at snortable doses. My aunt talked of her old college days huffing icing sugar and getting high, so it's probably a really powerful delivery method. Maybe snorting is common in illegal substances because you don't need any other equipment or parephinalia to use the drug?

      --
      Launchy.net changed my world.
    3. Re:Snorting by dasmoo · · Score: 1

      Except however you can snort heroin. Pretty much any semi dried powder can go up the old nose. You probably wouldn't want to snort plants, but hey, snuff was a pretty popular way to get a nicotine fix at one point in time.

      I'm not into snorting, I just watch way too many documentaries while I'm on acid.

    4. Re:Snorting by Palpitations · · Score: 1

      As an aside, who discovered "snorting" as a delivery mechanism for drugs (as opposed to eating or smoking)? And why do people only snort certain drugs, what makes those particular ones suitable? There's a surprisingly detailed history on the insufflation page over at Wikipedia. As for what makes something suitable? Water soluble, with small enough molecules to make it through the mucus membrane, and that doesn't cause an unbearable amount of irritation. I'm sure I'm missing quite a few things that would factor in to it, but I believe those are the most important ones.
    5. Re:Snorting by k8to · · Score: 1

      Snorting is ideal for delivery of drugs to the brain.

      The distance between nasal passagaes and the blood/brain barrier is quite small, and thus placing a high concentration in this location is good for brain delivery.

      --
      -josh
  28. Just reduce the sleep hrs needed to 3 by cheekyboy · · Score: 1

    If we all could have 8hrs quality of sleep in 3hrs in a burst mode, then it would be great.

    And if you do need to skip 1 day every few weeks then so be it, hey I went with 1 day a week without a sleep for 3 months and it was ok.

    --
    Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
    1. Re:Just reduce the sleep hrs needed to 3 by Fordiman · · Score: 1

      Hell, if I could just take a pill/spray and be wide awake in the morning (after saying up 'till three to finish a project), I'd be happy.

      --
      110100 1101000 1101000 1100110 0 1101111 1101000 1100011 1
  29. Sounds familiar by Noramskull · · Score: 2

    A drug that needs to be snorted and makes the test subjects feel awake? Sounds to me like someone just reinvented cocaine.

  30. The new norm.. by Unlikely_Hero · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If this works there's a good chance that sleep won't become optional, it will become a dream. Computers promised the same thing, paperless office, more productivity, but they brought their own issues. I love computers, don't get me wrong, but the fact remains that the promise of lots more leisure time was an empty promise.
    Free time will be filled with more work to do. In a world where sleep is optional, some people will be willing to work 20 hours a day or more. Slowly, this will become expected.

    This tech is here to stay; trying to change that would just be silly. If, as posters above have said, this isn't really a sleep replacement then it's only a matter of time, the tech will come.
    Some people will try to call it "unnatural" or "evil", it won't make a difference.
    The question is,
    how will you react when it happens and you're asked to come in for an 18 hour workday instead of your normal 8-12 to "stay competitive".
    Is it that crazy of an idea that maybe people should /relax/ with their freetime instead of adding work?...
    *sadly goes off and reads a book*

    --
    Happiness does not come from having much, but from being attached to little.
  31. Keep this stuff out of Japan by iandog · · Score: 1

    The folks here in Japan already don't sleep enough and use all kinds of bad for you stimulant drinks to wake you up and give you energy. I can just see everybody and his brother taking this drug in order to avoid sleep even more. But of course with Japan's record of approving and/or not banning known dangerous drugs (currently there is a scandal going on about people contracting hepatitis from dangerous drugs) that have been banned by the FDA in the 'States, I'm sure they would approve something like this for general use anyway.

    --
    -Ian
    1. Re:Keep this stuff out of Japan by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      From what I've read, Japan is quite strict when it comes to prescribing stimulants compared to say, the USA. So what makes you think this drug wouldn't be treated the same way? Or am I wrong about the former? Energy drinks can be problems, but not usually to the same extent as prescription meds, so It's kinda hard to justify banning them. Or can Japan be similar to China when it comes to what's allowed in food? As I know that there have been a few cases where food imported from China has be found to contain some ingredient that's banned in the country importing it for health reasons.

  32. Obligatory Star Trek reference... by denzacar · · Score: 1
    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
  33. Oblig. by Praseodymn · · Score: 1

    In Soviet Russia, sleep replaces YOU!
    and,
    whatcouldpossiblygowrong?!

    --
    Sometimes, you can, you go to hell for the rest of your life! That's a true thing.
  34. Secret government plans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Once again. slashdotters jump into a debate about the technical and logical implications of government drug testing. As always, these discussions devolve into conspiracy theories that suggest the intentions of the government are to develop chemicals that will be used on humans. Unfortunately, this line of thinking detracts from the true government agenda. We should be asking questions about what the government is planning to do with legions of sleep deprived monkeys that can pass a brain scan as fully alert. Will these monkeys be manning DMV offices and handing out licenses? Will they be working in Immigration offices making decisions on who gets citizenship based on how many bananas they offer? Will they be teaching in free government schools? If so, all of these things seem to be a step in the right direction to improve DMV, immigration and our schools, so let's not be so negative!

  35. Fun Facts About Orexin (and possible downsides) by OG · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Here are some facts about orexin to supplement the article. It's a neuropeptide that is endogenous in the mamallian brain (probably outside of mammals, but I've never checked). It was discovered about 10 years ago, and the original biological function described for it was increasing feeding, hence the name orexin (although many scientists prefer the name hypocretin). It's also been shown to subserve the reward system in the brain as a modulating agent.

    All which leads me to the question, how could this effect eating disorders and addiction? It's been shown that blocking the orexin system decreases relapse to drugs in animal models. Could artificially increasing the levels of orexin in the brain support the development or maintenance of drug abuse? Could it have similar effects on eating? It is interesting (and makes sense) that it only affected drowsy monkeys, as orexin seems to support the maintenance of wakefulness, so it's possible that there's a ceiling effect to orexin. Still, I'd be wary of longterm exposure to non-natural levels.

  36. Most Conservative Response by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    The FAA and military medical examiners are extremely conservative. Until a drug has been used for a long time in a large group of people with no adverse side affects, it won't be approved for flight. Even after that, it's not approved until ground testing on the specific pilot is done. For example, Allegra was approved 10 years after it was approved by the FDA, but I still had to take it for 2 weeks before I could fly with it. A stupid allergy drug, yup, 2 weeks without work. Drugs being used off label, no chance. The go pills (amphetamines) have a similar ground test, and at least for military pilots, are counted by the docs to make sure that you can't use more then so many in a certain time, with a couple of sliding windows. IIRC (don't quote me on this) but it's something like no more then 2 times a week, and no more then 5 times a month.

    And for the retard who says "airplanes are on autopilot most of the time, the pilot can take a nap". No, you're just fucking stupid. One pilot must always be awake, in the seat, paying attention to the systems, navigation and radios. If there are 2 pilots, then one can go piss, but if one's napping, the other can't go piss. So, no, you can't really "Take a nap" except on C-17 sized aircraft, with an augmented crew. Fighter pilots have to use go pills; they don't really have an option for a long sortie.

  37. Social Cycle by dcollins · · Score: 1

    "...there would no doubt be large demand for such a remedy thanks to its apparent lack of side-effects."

    It's funny, just *yesterday* I was thinking to myself the following: Every decade or so a new drug is invented that is claimed to have no adverse side-effects. The young kids say "Ah, at last! We can take this drug without a downside!" And only later in the decade do the side effects appear evident.

    My girlfriend can remember her mother saying in the 80's "Have you heard about this new drug cocaine? It's the first drug that doesn't have side-effects..."

    So actually I was wondering when the next one would come around. And there you go.

    --
    We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
    1. Re:Social Cycle by BeanThere · · Score: 1

      This reasoning error is basically an inductive fallacy.

  38. Wow! It's not cheap by inicom · · Score: 3, Informative

    100 micrograms runs about $120-$150.
    1 milligram about $560.

    Still, if it works. Think of all the extra billable hours...

    --
    -a.e.mossberg
  39. Electronic Arts will love this! by Homer's+Donuts · · Score: 1

    It's crunch time, baby!

  40. Skeptical by methano · · Score: 1

    I RTFA and still don't quite understand. I've worked in drug discovery for over 25 years and know that getting peptides into the brain by inhalation isn't a given. Except maybe for insulin, it isn't even known. So I'm skeptical.

  41. Why have pilots. by Gen.Anti · · Score: 1

    Military planes seem ideal to be remote controlled. Why bother with drugs if you can have groups of people steering the plane from the ground? Is the human CPU in the plane there to prevent interception? Cryptography would solve that to an extent, coupled with some not easily replaced friend-or-foe logic. They talk about ground robots already proving themselves in Iraq, when building a ground robot is surely more complicated then setting up a remote joystick for a plane.

    1. Re:Why have pilots. by DanJ_UK · · Score: 1

      Because computers don't have common sense. Yet.

      --
      - Dan
    2. Re:Why have pilots. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      neither do military pilots. ever.

    3. Re:Why have pilots. by DanJ_UK · · Score: 1

      On second thought, after catching a showing of Topgun on TV last night, I'll have to agree.

      --
      - Dan
  42. To Be Specific... by Obyron · · Score: 5, Informative

    Sorry, but I'm a drug/organic chem geek.

    The amphetamine in the "Go Pills" used by the USAF is dextro-amphetamine. This is NOT a derivative of methamphetamine. They are both derivatives of phenethylamine, and belong to that class of drugs. Amphetamine is an acronym of Alpha-Methyl-PHenEThylAMINE (ie: it's a phenethylamine molecule with a methyl group attached at the alpha position). Amphetamine is chiral, meaning that it has a stereocenter: because the molecule exists in 3D space there are two "versions" of it (called "isomers") that have the same atomic makeup, but are turned in different directions, and are thus non-superimposable. Dextroamphetamine is the dextrorotary isomer of regular ol' amphetamine. (The other isomer is called levo-amphetamine.)

    This is NOT even remotely the same thing as methamphetamine. Do you know anyone on Adderall for ADHD? They are on dexamphetamine. Adderall is a mixture of both isomers of the amphetamine molecule (called a "racemic mixture"). Remember that seemingly minor changes in structure can cause a drug to have vastly different effects. The fact that the amphetamines are stimulants is something of an anomaly, since they're part of the larger class of Phenethylamines, and most PEAs are actually psychedelics (including drugs like MDMA, mescaline, MDMCat, MDA, and the 2C and DOx classes of "research" psychedelics).

    I just want to counter any assumption people might take from this post that Air Force pilots are flying around jacked up to the gills on meth, fiending for a hit from the pipe, and screaming about the spiders crawling underneath their skin. Methamphetamine is the scary, back alley, black sheep cousin of the amphetamine family; similar to how heroin (diacetylmorphine) is the scary, back alley, black sheep cousin of morphine or fentanyl (80 times stronger than morphine, and not uncommonly used in epidurals during childbirth). As the parent suggests, there isn't anything dangerous in an expertly trained pilot taking dexamphetamine at a reasonable dose under medical supervision. If there is, there are thousands of college students out there popping Adderall illegally to study for exams because it intensifies concentration who would probably like to know about it! Methamphetamine, however, as I'm sure you've all seen on the news, is an entirely different animal...

    This isn't so much a reply to the parent as a clarification of a lot of the "USAF pilots are taking meth!" posts I've seen in this thread. It's just not the same thing.

    --
    --Obyron
    1. Re:To Be Specific... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish I had some mod points to give this one.

    2. Re:To Be Specific... by Ellis+D.+Tripp · · Score: 1

      [quote]Methamphetamine is the scary, back alley, black sheep cousin of the amphetamine family; similar to how heroin (diacetylmorphine) is the scary, back alley, black sheep cousin of morphine or fentanyl[/quote]

      Methamphetamine is not ONLY a "street drug". It is actually available by prescription, under the brand name Desoxyn, and used in the treatment of narcolepsy and severe ADD/ADHD.

      Heroin, OTOH, is listed in DEA schedule I, and is banned from medical use in the US. It is used in other countries for the management of severe pain in terminal cancer patients.

      --
      Remember "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"? Help make it a reality again! http://soylentnews.org
    3. Re:To Be Specific... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not a chem geek, but interested in the history of illegal drugs. (NOT the use of them.)

      Heroin was introduced by the Bayer Aspirin company as a cough suppressant. I'm sure it worked since opiates are perhaps the best cough medicine. Like cocaine, Heroin (that's a brand name) was marketed as non-addictive/no side effects; give it to your kids. Oops. Freud promoted it, then retracted after a friend went fiendish.

      Every new drug is promoted as non-harmful. A few other drugs like "meth" are promoted as the downfall of civilization. These labels change, and even switch places. (Cocaine has been a great evil twice, once in the 1920's and then again in the 80's, with a brief flirtation with acceptance back in the permissive 70's.)

      I see meth and rock cocaine every day here in the streets of Vancouver, Canada's Downtown Eastside. I wonder though if any drug given a concentrate/rapid uptake method, like smoking, would become as damaging as these? Like if you take dexamphetamine and smoke it, would it be like the evil meth? Many many (often useful) drugs are prone to abuse.

      During WWII people were prostituting their children to get cigarettes. A lot of the damage from drugs comes from the whole situation they're taken in. If every junkie had a doctor to check them out and make sure they weren't getting too damaged, they'd probably live a lot longer. Hope those pilots have better luck than a lot of the ex-GI's I've met on the street.

    4. Re:To Be Specific... by Obyron · · Score: 1

      ^^ I had a note in the original version of that post after the bit about heroin saying: "Note: This is a bit of an oversimplification, but I needed to make a point." but it got lost somewhere in revision.

      A lot of what I've read suggests that heroin is actually a much better better pain killer than morphine, due to higher bioavailability, but that the drug was scheduled as having no medical use out of fear. This happens waaaaaay too often. LSD shows extreme potential in the treatment of everything from social anxiety to alcoholism. MDMA was very promising in therapy sessions, and MAPS (which is an excellent organization, for anyone looking to support people doing real, meaningful medical research with psychedelic drugs) is trying to resurrect its use in the medical community. LSD, as well as psilocybin mushrooms, have shown potential as some of the only meaningful treatments for a condition called cluster headaches. One of the major prescriptions right now for migraine avoidance is ergotamine tartrate, which is a direct precursor of LSD production. Prohibition has gotten to the point where we're ignoring therapeutic uses for these substances.

      I didn't mean to imply that methamphetamine and heroin are ONLY street drugs, but it was a quick and dirty description for the sake of making a point about the fact that d-amphetamine and methamphetamine are different chemicals. Thanks for the reply!

      --
      --Obyron
    5. Re:To Be Specific... by Obyron · · Score: 1

      I agree with a lot of your points, except:

      Every new drug is promoted as non-harmful. A few other drugs like "meth" are promoted as the downfall of civilization.

      Methamphetamine and d-amphetamine are not new drugs. They have a long history of usage and study. They've both been around in a pharmaceutical capacity (ie: they were synthed much earlier, but not really used for anything) since the 30s, and they both saw use in World War II. The US military used dexamphetamine, and the Japanese and Germans used methamphetamine (with Hitler famously getting a daily IV injection of methamphetamine). We've got a handle on these drugs by now.

      Duration and speed of onset are key in identifying drugs of abuse, and you can then figure out how much damage they're doing by their toxicity. Methamphetamine has a faster onset (which is kind of a moot point now that people are smoking it, and onset is like 30 seconds), as well as a longer duration than dexamphetamine. Dexamphetamine is primarily a stimulant, while methamphetamine has a variety of side effects like euphoria and sexual stimulation, which, combined with methamphetamine's long duration (10ish hours or longer with redosing) make it tailor made to be abused.

      I'm not making any predictions about the downfall of society, or saying the drug is inherently evil or anything, but I am saying it's more toxic than dexamp, and is more attractive as a drug of abuse.

      --
      --Obyron
    6. Re:To Be Specific... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't find that reference to people prostituting their children for cigearettes during WWII, could you provide a link or reference?

      As for rapid uptake of drugs, yes, it does make for a change in their effects. I'm a chem/drug nerd and have smoked pure caffeine, as well as smoked re-salted Dexedrine. Caffine is more fun when smoked, but it remains largely non-recreational. The difference is that the rapid come-up has a bit of euphoria to it, but it will still make you feel jittery if you take too much which is its main limitation to recreational use. Amphetamine and methamphetamine are basically the same with the main difference being the duration. The main reason it is not commonly used for AD(H)D is that it lasts too long: People can't sleep properly if they are taking it daily. Taken in the same relative dose, and in the same route of administration, most people would be hard pressed to tell the difference between methamphetamine and amphetamine, until they could determine the relative durations.

    7. Re:To Be Specific... by Obyron · · Score: 1

      A regular user could potentially tell the difference in speed of onset as well. Methamphetamine "comes on" much faster than dexamp does; however, if the use is recreational they're most probably going to be insufflated, injected, or smoked, all of which pretty much destroy the distinction in onset time. It's worth noting that methamphetamine is more unpredictable and more toxic than its non-methylated cousin. Dexamp and meth also have different pathways to toxicity. I have read studies where drugs such as haloperidol, phentolamine, etc., used to treat toxic side effects of amphetamines are less effective on meth than dexamp, which implies meth has higher toxicity and does damage in different ways.

      Mental side effects of methamphetamine are going to be more pronounced than dexamphetamine as well. Methamphetamine is the same initial chemical as dexamphetamine, with the addition of a methyl group. Methylation increases metabolic uptake, which will account for the faster speed of onset, but another important note is that it increases a substance's ability to absorb in fatty tissues ("lipophilicity"). This means that it's going to more readily cross the blood-brain barrier, and cause mental side effects. This will happen with dexamp as well, and I'm not saying dexamp is a perfect stimulant by any means (that title is hopefully going to go to one of the non-narcotic, non-dopaminergic stimulants that are currently in very exciting stages of research), but the higher lipophilicity of methamphetamine is undeniable, and that's going to lead to faster onset of mental issues. If you combine this with the euphoria, increased sexual impulse, long duration, rapid onset, etc. etc. etc. that make methamphetamine an ideal drug of abuse, then you're left with very very bleak prospects for people using this drug.

      I'm not an organic chemist, but I'm in training to be a pharmacist. I have a solid, but still lay, understanding of pharmacology and related subjects, so if someone else sees me going wrong here, please correct me. My posts shouldn't be taken as any sort of indicator of my personal lifestyle, but should rather be seen as coming from someone with an interest in a pharmaceutical career who is a believer in harm reduction rather than prohibition. I figure after this many posts in a public forum showing knowledge of scheduled drugs, it might be prudent to give a little disclaimer and explain myself; especially since I don't believe in going AC for these kinds of posts. The fact that I feel like I need to do this is depressing.

      --
      --Obyron
  43. Didn't they already try this one time ? by dynomitejj · · Score: 0

    They did this experiment already. It was with a drug called cocaine. At first, the monkeys didn't sleep. Then, they slept for a real long time because they died. In fact they are still sleeping.

  44. Yeah and IBM would still not give out increases by gelfling · · Score: 1

    "Productivity" is great if they reward you. Otherwise it's just more fucking slavery.

  45. Uberman's schedule by dmitri3 · · Score: 1

    Uberman's or Everyman's schedule works fine already. Of course it requires some time of adaptation and some sacrifices, but it's a lot better that taking drugs for the rest of your life. Google it.

  46. I, for one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...Welcome our new sleepless ape overlords.

  47. Changing Society ? by teknoviking · · Score: 1

    I wonder if anyone at DARPA read Kress' Beggars in Spain?

    If it works with humans and the side affects are limited, it seems that such a drug (if it were cheap, availible, and had minimal side effects) would appeal to much of humanity for many different reasons. This could change how we live, work, and play on so many levels it boggles my brain.

    As for me, I am going back to bed....

  48. And now... by augi01 · · Score: 1

    A new drug for procrastinating college kids who need a 24hour study-binge before their exam. Brilliant!

    --
    No yesterday, no tomorrow, and no today.
  49. Obligatory by MagusSlurpy · · Score: 1

    And I, for one, welcome our new, sleep-free monkey overlords! I'd like to remind them that, as a trusted internet personality, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground typewriting caves.

    --
    My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
  50. Re:Snorting, inhalation != insufflation by Mopatop · · Score: 2, Informative

    The main methods of taking drugs are: Ingestion, insufflation (snorting), inhalation and injection.

    With ingestion, the chemical is absorbed through the digestive system. When insufflated, it is absorbed via the mucus membrane at the top & back of your nasal cavity. Inhaled drugs are absorbed through the lungs, and injection needs no explanation.

    The difference is usually a duration/intensity trade-off based on how quickly the chemical enters the bloodstream in its entirety. I listed them above with the longest duration on the left and the highest intensity on the right. This is usually the deciding factor in administration for drug users, however some drugs are not suitable for some methods for various reasons. For example, MDMA (ecstasy) is particularly painful to snort, amphetamine has a longer tail-off period when ingested (making sleep difficult) and obviously you'd find it difficult to snort cannabis. You can usually snort nearly any water-soluble powdered substance.

    Some drugs also have different effects when administered differently. Ketamine is much more of a tranquilliser when ingested than when snorted (when it is a more enjoyable dissociative). Cocaine acts as a (powerful) local anaesthetic making it well-suited to insufflation, whereas if you rub it into your gums you lose all feeling in your mouth. MDMA has a "threshold" dosage for its main effect making it unsuitable for absorbing through the gums as gauging the dosage is tricky.

    I should point out that whereas the summary implied inhaled drugs are "snorted", this is incorrect. Inhalation is different to insufflation - I would be impressed to see someone get a monkey to bosh a fat line of charlie.

  51. Nothing extraordinary by Muhammar · · Score: 1

    For years there has been a very cheap and safe drug that does just that - Modafinil. It is a pill, it does not have to be snorted.

    You can stay awake on modafinil for up to 3 days in row without sleep - it is not pleasant since you dont feel refreshed but you are also not exhausted. Modafinil is devoid of the manically stimulated, clenching-jaw, no-one-can-stop-me-now driven delusional state like with amphetamines. Modafinil has no pleasure-producing qualities and no long-term ill effect. But rats kept on modafinil for over a week without sleep suddenly developed immune system failure and internal infection. It is known independently that lack of sleep makes one more prone to infection so it seems sleep is needed for proper functioning of immune defense.

    --
    I doubt that we will ever figure out - and I suspect that even if we did figure out we couldn't do much about it
  52. Why amphetamines? by superwiz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There is already Provigil which has no effects on metabolism. Its only effect is to remove sleepiness.

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
  53. The 1980's just called by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They want their drugs back

  54. "drugs like modafinil" by rjamestaylor · · Score: 1

    I have a prescription for Provigil and take it regularly. I am a third shift Linux System Admin over thousands of individually configured Internet-facing servers. I also share day duties (when off work) with my wife to care for our children. Switching from Day to Night and Night to Day schedules is not only easy but actually possible because of modafinil (Provigil®).

    Usually I have a 24 hour break between finishing my work-week (4 10 hour days) and starting my day-time responsibilities. However, sometimes I need to start day-time responsibilities immediately. On those occasions I take a pill after my shift and then I am good until 10 to 12 hours later. However, I then need serious sleep time. While needing to be awake I am well served by Provigil -- on 5 hours of sleep and having 2 Provigils spaced 12 hours apart I am awake and alert without amphetamine jitters for 30 hours straight. Not bad.

    And the effects of Provigil when on normal schedule are enough to keep me prescribed. Acuity, alertness, focus, and ability to recall is fantastic. A real "smart pill."

    --
    -- @rjamestaylor on Ello
  55. I know no one RTFA but by PachmanP · · Score: 1
    ...the most important part of the article is about the monkeys! It allows them to

    ...perform like well-rested monkeys on cognitive tests.

    My only thought about the whole article was that I wished I could perform like a well-rested monkey on cognitive tests...
    --
    You're thinking small. Why miniaturize the laser, when we could instead enlarge the sharks? -John Searle
  56. Snortable drug replaces sleep? by starnix · · Score: 1

    Isn't this more commonly known as cocaine?

  57. Some military pilots need a gel instead of a snort by engineerofsorts · · Score: 1

    A few of the military pilots may need a gel version of this drug: U2 pilots have to eat and drink during long-haul (>12 hours) flights through a tube into their space suit helmet. They currently have two options: a delicious caffeine-laced chocolate pudding, or a tube of the amphetamine gel. They would need a special device to enable snorting of this new stuff. For the U2 pilots, flying the most-difficult to land plane in the military arsenal, being in top form mentally is pretty essential to the landing, considering that, even during a normal/short operation, another pilot will typically help them to land by following the U2 down the run way in a muscle car, calling out altitude and position to the pilot.

    --
    Life is tough. Life is even tougher when you're stupid.
  58. We could also by Sleeping+Kirby · · Score: 1

    eat tasteless food all day, everyday too. After all, taste doesn't have any direct impact on what nutrients we actually need. But... why would you want to? (goes back to sleep.)

    --
    please... let me sleep... a little more... yay, no longer annonmyous coward.
  59. Dr Strangesnuggle by epine · · Score: 1

    Years ago I was asked to join a group doing government work in exploring drugs related to sleep replacement or to maintain alertness in certain groups of people. This sort of stuff made me uncomfortable then and it still gives me the creeps. Jerome Siegel, professor of psychiatry at UCLA, was quoted as follows in TFA:

    "We have to realize that we are already living in a society where we are already self-medicating with caffeine," he said. Apparently, that's your answer. We already cash our paychecks at the Adenosine Quickie Mart. Why not also mortgage your house at the Orexin Casino?

    Based on this quote, Dr Siegel strikes me as a jerk in a white lab coat. Exactly why do we "have to realize" this little fact about caffeine? Has he been viewing too many spokesmartians for the Bush administration on late night TV?

    How about "We have to realize we live in a society where Paris Hilton is a top-ten Google search keyword." OK, I realize that this is true, but I've never much felt I *needed* or was *mandated* to realize this. When I leave my front door in the morning I don't look around my city block and say to myself "wow, there are probably dozens of voyeuristic celeb-stalkers within a one block radius, and these people constitute the society in which I live, so I better conduct myself accordingly".

    How about the phrase "already living in"? The barn door is open, the horse has already bolted. In the 1950s and 1960s we were "already living in" a society where second-hand smoke was unavoidable in public. It's possible we are "already living in" a society where global temperatures are warming. The human race gets itself into no end of stupid situations we don't fully understand at the outset. What is your point, Dr Strangesnooze?

    But wait, there's another hit from the all-nite pharmacy: "already self-medicating". Another horse has bolted through the open door at the other end of the barn. Surely it is no longer even logically possible to put the horse back in the barn. Even if you close the door after the horse, it will still escape the open door at the other end. That's that, then.

    Original sin: self-medicating with table sugar, in the form of dried apple slices. From what I've heard, Eve went on a bit of a bender.

    I need to run this infomercial one more time, to fully savor the sweet Folgers aroma:

    "We have to realize that we are already living in a society where we are already self-medicating with caffeine," he said. If the goons from the Orexin Casino show up to foreclose this crazy mortgage, and orexin A becomes a schedule III controlled substance, Dr Strangesnuggle has a bright career ahead of him as a BALCO spokesman. There must be plenty of women out there already conniving to date rape their men so that they can't fall asleep after sex and avoid the cuddle talk.
  60. Not yet by Gorimek · · Score: 1

    You could have written a very similar note about heavier than air flight in 1899, and many people did.

    Just because something hasn't been solved yet, doesn't mean it won't be solved in the future.

    Perhaps there is some fundamental reason that this simply can't be done. But we have yet to discover that as well.

  61. Dolphins by PIPBoy3000 · · Score: 1

    Bottlenose dolphins never truly sleep, at least not like humans. Half their brains shut down, while the other side keeps a watchful eye for predators. A couple hours later, the other half does the same trick.

    It's likely that sleep is essential, but there are various tricks to minimize it if evolution demands.

  62. Re: Resources thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm with you on the resources thing. I think the planet as a whole is already stretched pretty thin to start taxing food stores with 30% more resource usage in the span of a few years.

    Also, as someone else mentioned, could we really afford (financially) our extra free time expenses without working more? Count me out...

  63. Like living to 120! by sponglish · · Score: 1

    If the spray actually does replace sleep, it'd be like extending your life by 30%. I wouldn't mind an additional 20 years.

    --
    "I improvise. It's my greatest talent. I prefer situations to plans..." --Wintermute, William Gibson's "Neuromancer"
  64. This is wonderful news! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a narcoleptic person myself, I'd just like to say how .[;'/

    1. Re:This is wonderful news! by The+MESMERIC · · Score: 1

      i share your pain zzzzzzzzzz

  65. Prior Art: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mountain Dew

  66. Sickening by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's bad enough that people have already been brainwashed into believing that somehow there aren't enough hours in a day to get everything done. What's even worse is that there are some people who will no doubt look at this as some sort of saving grace. As if this will provide people with more time to spend with their families, or to get more done at work.

    Guess what? If you can't find the time to be with your family now, it has nothing to do with how many hours you're awake in a week - it's your priorities that are fucked up. Time is like money or possessions. No matter how much you have, it's never going to be enough. Be happy with the number of hours you already have; because if you can't make it work now, you never will. Regardless as to the quantity of sleep-replacing drugs you take.

  67. Which new drug for the psychosis by Rockin'Robert · · Score: 0

    induced during an extended WIDE-AWAKE (sleep deprivation) binge?
    Like: GRRRRRRRRRRR! I'm gonna go kill something!
    RR

  68. I don't get it by cavebison · · Score: 1

    Surely it would take less money, time and effort to equip long haul aircraft with twin pilot seats and a place to sleep. One flies, the other sleeps. Truckers do this already.

    I'm sure they have other applications in mind, for which there'd be more sensible solutions as well.

  69. To the critics.... by Danathar · · Score: 1

    Seems like all the slashdotters are looking at this from the perspective of people who just want to have less time sleeping.

    I agree that not sleeping on this stuff (or other meds) long term is crazy, but you are not going to stop people who want to risk their health by refusing to sleep like some (or many) truckers for instance on long hauls. Better that they be alert than risking my life on the road due to falling asleep at the wheel. What about somebody who only has x amount of days/months/years to live due to a disease? Reducing sleep gives them more life. I say give it to whomever wants it and let em sign a release form.

    1. Re:To the critics.... by Gen.Anti · · Score: 1

      Here you have people talking about how sleep deprivation leads to dangerous widespread inflammations and even cancer. Deprive somebody, who's already dying, of sleep and you may risk making it very much shorter for them, and destroying any possible slim chance of long-term surviving. Not for sure, but quite possible. My concern is signing release forms when it's so hard to be sure about anything here even if you try. Moreover, why do you think a non-drugged-up person after 48 hours is more dangerous than a drugged-up person after 480 hours. Obviously I agree, as I say there are many sides of those issues!

  70. Im confused... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How did they get monkeys to snort?

    1. Re:Im confused... by The+MESMERIC · · Score: 1

      by rolling up a dollar bill note.

      duh!

    2. Re:Im confused... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I cant get my dog to not piss on the carpet. Monkeys trained to toot "exotic substances" is not only an accomplishment in biochem but in behaviorism as well.

  71. cancer - here we come! by shokk · · Score: 1

    Wasn't there a story recently about how upsetting the circadian rhythm (night shift) may be causing cancer?
    I'm betting this one is going to cause humans to evolve into one giant cancer node.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22026660/

    --
    "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
  72. Re:Some military pilots need a gel instead of a sn by Gen.Anti · · Score: 1

    A weird point, for one somehow those U-2S pilots have been fine without this since the 50ies, for another they even inhale special mixtures starting an hour before the take-off (Wikipedia sez). Anyway I must had been the only one not aware of this craziness with those muscle cars in the military, nice article I found here http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2005/07/01/hmn_feature20.html