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Li-Ion Batteries Hit Final R&D Phase for Plug-in Cars
An anonymous reader writes "Tesla finally delivered its first production model of the all-electric Roadster this month. Coinciding with that, researchers from the big automakers and their outsourced startup labs are hitting stride in the development of cheap, high-powered lithium-ion batteries. These may actually end up in our garages. Toyota, in fact, says it's got enough of the chemistry down to roll out a test fleet for the plug-in Prius before the end of 2009. It's mass production of battery tech that's the holdup — which might mean Mercedes' electric hybrids beat the Prius to market en masse by 2010 or 2011."
I'm still waiting for the Ariel-Atom-based Wrightspeed X1.
Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.
Looks nice to me!
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Please, please, tell me they are not getting their batteries from Sony!
"50 cars caught fire on I-4 today."
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How will these hold up vs the current electric car's batteries? If something was wrong with the current batteries, you would think they should have used these to start with.
How do you make sure someone does a regular check-up on their car so the battery won't become faulty and potentially catch fire? Just take a look at all those driving junksters and you see what I mean.
Also what happens to the battery in case of a car crash? Let's top it off by saying it's raining, too. Will it completely discharge? Will it catch fire or explode?
Bottom line: How safe are they really...I suppose a lot of research must have gone into this aspect.
No matter how well R&D goes for these vehicles, I don't see how we can successfully convert people to electric cars without some sort of infrastructure in place. Sure, you can charge your car at home for the daily commute, but what about road trips?
Plug-in hybrids are a good compromise, though.
It's all fine and good, but do electric cars really help the environment. In order to dig out and process the amount of lithium needed for a car the size of Tesla Roadster, a great deal of CO2 had to have been produced. I would like if someone could carbon impact of the Tesla, from the acquisition of raw materials onwards.
OK, so rather than pollute the air as we burn fossil fuels, we'll fill up landfills with bazillions of batteries. Electric cars might not be as "green" and wonderful as people like to think.
These batteries are probably recyclable but it isn't cost effective, based on what I rad. So, the potential to recycle is there but are people actually going to do it?
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How well to these batteries fair in the cold? If they are like the Li-ions in my video camera you'll get to the end of the street then they'll die.
In the not too distant future, next Sunday A.D.
Look, no matter what tech we use, you have to get the ergs to run the thing, be it via electricity from a plug or electrolyzed h2. You are looking at massive power plants. But for most city folks, these things are placed well out of site in the country-side, where the inhabitants do not have the political power 9due to low populations) to do anything about it.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to think "profiling is worse than the slaughter of innocent people..."
...and hopefully good riddance. Say, did you know that an electric vehicle was the first to travel at 100km/h...
...in 1899!!!
Heat is a problem with Li-ion batteries. If they get too hot they explode. Leaving a phone in a car with direct sunlight is enough.
Seems a bit odd they would be used in cars.
Apparently, part of the business strategy of selling electric cars is to let the customers drive them around for a year and then recall them for no apparent reason, with no option for the customer to keep them.
I wonder when it will happen this time.
I'm sure it's Bush's fault. Somehow.
"They said I probly shouldn't fly with just one eye," "I am Bender. Please insert girder."
Or, perhaps an increased demand for electricity might spur on searches for alternative ways of producing it rather than through the burning of coal. Geothermal, wind, solar, hydro and even nuclear power all hold some immediate promise in this regard as potentially more environmentally friendly alternatives. At least with an existing electric car infrastructure, as the centralized methods used for generating the electricity might slowly change over time, the infrastructure of existing cars wouldn't need to be upgraded with it.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
From what I've read (sorry I don't have specific sources), even charging a car from a dirty power plant ends up creating less emissions and requires less energy overall. You make a good point though about miners. Mining in the US is as safe as mining coal can probably be these days, but in China and other coal-exporting countries there aren't so many safety standards. And even no matter how safe it gets it's never going to be SAFE safe.
That's why it would be great to recharge these cars from a solar or wind source, where possible.
life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think
Is that to prevent people developing an alternative to petrol?
I would like to see the industry go. Granted Diesel deserved its bad rep as they escaped the EPA rules of the 70s (actually I think only gasoline automobiles got whacked). The problem is getting past zealots in California and other states who have taken on deciding for the rest of the country what they can have. Yes, rest of the country. These states acting on their own are large enough to force manufacturers to accomodate them instead of abandoning them simply with California being the base.
I still think that SUVs will again rule after a short decline. Once series hybrid and similar SUV's come along getting upwards if not more than 35 effective MPG people will have even less reason to switch. Look at it this way, with each big increase in MPG the incentive to move to a small car gets less and less. Me, I would love a SUV with 35+ capability in city and highway (crossover sized, though the upcoming VW small SUV might make that mileage)
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
That's why I recommend a wind generator be installed on every car. That way you can charge as you drive. Ever hang your hand out the car window and think "Wow, if I could just harness this power, I'd be rich!"
-matthew
"THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
The electricity to charge all those batteries has to come from someplace. all you are doing is shifting the the consumption of fossil fuel from one place to another. The energy required to manufacture these batteries in VERY large quantities has to come from someplace as well.
Last time I checked there are not many rivers left to damn up for hydro so the juice has to come from someplace and since fusion power isn't quite ready for prime time you are going to have to build a hell of a lot more power plants to transfer the power generation from a facility on 4 wheels to some very big stationary ones.
That being said, you can gain a hell of a lot of efficiency because large power plants do much better then the internal combustion engine, but they still have to burn something, either that or be prepared to have a big nuclear power plant coming to a neighborhood near you.
Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
Whoever modded me troll can't recognize sarcasm. The point I was making was a sudden rush to electric vehicles could have unintended consequences. From my perspective, we need to solve several technological / infrastructure /economic hurdles before electric can be a reality.
1) There needs to be a real change in battery/capacitor technology. Batteries are slow charging, and composed of hazardous materials. They are also heavy and inefficient. They also generate a lot of heat. Exploding laptops come to mind. Capacitors charge quickly but also discharge quickly which brings its own issues. They also are hazardous.
2) How do quickly charge a capacitor with the energy to power are car? The energy requirements are enormous. I can't envision stopping in for a charge. A battery / Super Capacitor hybrid that can be easily swapped out is more likely.
3) How do cope with the increased need for electricity? All the things you are more environmentally friendly than coal. But twice a day the road to my house is closed due to a train that carries almost a hundred cars filled with coal. And I don't live anywhere near a coal mine. There is a nuclear power plant nearby. It will be closed in 2015 and nobody has voted for a new one. We would need a whole lot more of them and nobody wants one in their back yard.
4) Who is going to pay for the infrastructure needed? It won't be Bill Gates, IBM, General Motors et al. It will be people who struggle with day to days bills and health care.
5) The remark I made about illegal immigration is right on the money. That is the the only steadily increasing demographic here. The reason we outsource, hire illegal immigrants is to exploit them for lower wages. Who do you do you thing will be growing corn, building power plants etc?
What is needed is a real innovation something that radically changes the transfer and storage of energy. Much like oil replaced steam. Nothing is free, but we need to find real alternatives with more efficiency and less of the downsides.
What ever happened to the GM EV1, again?
...so the next thing we are going to see is some Chinese company producing fake "LiFePo" battery, consisting of nothing than Lithium-Ion.
;=)
That is when we will see the exploding cars...
Disclaimer: I am *for* the electric/hybrid car, I drive one myself
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I was just thinking of that the other day. My guess is that your mileage-per-recharge will just plain suck in the winter months.
It's either that, or they start making EV's with a kerosene/gasoline/propane heater option.
Another thing I would like to know is how well these batteries function in freezing and sub-zero conditions, since chemical batteries have a reputation for performing poorly when cold. In such a case, you might need something like a battery pre-heater to get any decent performance out of it, which only makes the situation worse.
If you go through the numbers for charge time and power on the Tesla site and press reports (70A @ 220V for 3.5 hours to go from flat to full), and the DOE number on CO2 produced per kWh for coal plants, you can figure CO2 emissions from a Tesla roadster powered entirely by coal-derived electricity. It ends up being considerably better ordinary gasoline automobiles.
However, there's a bunch of caveats there.
1) It depends on the range being what Tesla says it is, in the production model.
2) It depends on new batteries. Loss of charging efficiency or increase in self-discharge with age is possible. (Loss of capacity is inevitable, but doesn't affect efficiency directly)
3) It ignores transmission and distribution losses. I think these are fairly small nowadays, though.
4) The Tesla is a tiny car built on a Lotus Elise chassis. It may not scale well.
They delivered the first car to a company executive, not to a paying customer. Does that actually count as "in production"? The picture from the article is also interesting - they are pushing the car out of a box truck - does it not have a reverse gear? (They've admitted to having problems with transmissions so far).
I like the concept, I just hope they can pull it off before going under. The official release date keeps getting pushed back, upper management has been shuffled, and quite a bit of the staff has been let go recently.
Completely OT, but is anyone else sick of the 'whatcouldpossiblygowrong' tag that appears on every single engineering/biotech article? I mean, it was moderately amusing the first 500 times, but give it up already.
Hmmm...
1. Rent a car for said road trip out of the savings on $4+/gallon gasoline - for a road trip diesel will probably make more sense than gasoline. Diesel engine vehicles can beat hybrids on highway milage.
2. Fly or take a train instead
3. Rent a trailor with a generator(maybe a small, high efficiency diesel?)
In the longer run, it shouldn't take too much work to install charging booths at restraunts. With a 300 mile range at something like 75mph, you can schedule chargings around reasonable meal stops. Stuff like drive from 8 to noon, eat, 1-5, eat, 5-9, get a motel(and plug in). Drive before breakfast for even more charge, but then you'd also be busting recommended driving times(over 12 hours total on the road in a day).
I don't read AC A human right
The "fuel" in a battery contains both oxidiser and reducer, exactly like an explosive, and can catch fire without the admission of air. If the combustion occurs in the middle of a battery pack, the explosion could be very nasty indeed. (Interestingly, open lead acid batteries are relatively safe because heat evaporates the electrolyte until they can no longer conduct current. The main risk is explosion of the hydrogen air mix produced or, in the case of a steel boat, sinking because the overflowing sulphuric acid just ate through the hull.)
However, we should not get too paranoid about this. The biggest danger to life is due to kinetics, not explosion. The hundred thousand plus people who get killed by vehicles every year in the developed world were mostly killed by impact. Electric vehicles may well be safer - they will be slower than current gas engined vehicles, and there will be a greater temptation to build in advanced control systems. Even the Tesla doesn't disprove this - it will cost more than an equivalent Porsche, and I cannot see too many of them being sold to boy racers.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
One of the huge bonuses associated with electric cars is reduced maintenance. There are no timing chains to break, no radiators to leak, no oil to be changed. Electric motors are highly reliable and very easy to fix. In the documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car?" they discussed that the dealers did not like the electric cars at all because of the tremendously lowered need for maintenance and repair. (Of course the mechanics loved them because the cars were easy to work and and the mechanics didn't end up covered in oil and grease all the time)
If you really do a lot of extended road trips, you should get a gas car or hybrid, but for everybody else the electric car + renting a gas car occasionally would be the much better choice.
Using a car analogy when the topic itself is cars would be recursion.
It would be even better if you could say that analogy with a LISP.
:(){
Yeah, we need to start developing a system that will allow us to get electricity to the vast majority of the U.S.
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I got it... here is what we do:
1. Build poles along the high ways that can carry this "electricty"
2. Engineer "electric power plants" that can produce this "electricty"
3. Run wires from "electric power plants" along the poles to thier end destinations
4. At the end of those poles, create "connectors" so that the cars can plug into them...
5. ?????
6. Profit!!!
A feel a little bad for the sarcasm...
.
P.S. You do realize that the gas pumps already have electricy ran to them... Just modify the adapter (so that "electric piracy" might become as popular as gas syphoning...) and put a meter on the "electric" pump and Viola... Infrastructre is in place...
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Post Post Script: Of course, I would always carry around my UPS just in case!!!!
...because of the "cheap" in LiFePo. Any Lithium-Ion battery needs some cathode, and I guess that LiFePo will eventually be cheaper than the cobalt oxide that is common in today's laptop batteries.
At that point, making fake "LiFePo" batteries from old technology will actually be more expensive than real LiFePo. Scammers might still sell you second-rate batteries that don't last long, but the risk of them exploding under your butt will be greatly reduced.
C - the footgun of programming languages
Carbeque!
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
a sick and evil dream of converting my 1967 Pontiac GTO into a hybrid. I'll keep the motor, attach a generator and a trunk load of batteries. I'm really after the torque so I'll need to use those batteries and that big generator to power the nasties electric motor I can find! Bwwwwaa HAHAHAHA! Why not?
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
Jesus Christ, it's a Li-ion! Get it in the car!
By installing any wind powered generator, you would be adding air resistance to the vehicle (even sticking your hand out the window adds air resistance), and the power you could get out of such a generator would always be less than the additional power you have to consume to overcome that resistance.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
That whoosh over your head isn't due to the vehicle speed.
GM is developing the Chevy Volt which is slated for production at the end of 2010 as a 2011 model. GM should have test mules out there later this year. Progress looks good. Car specs are good. More information at http://www.gm-volt.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3THUk5_jEw
And that affects the veracity of my comment how, exactly?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Funny reading about electric cars 25 years after the first stories came out, and finding lack of mass produced batteries still being the #1 reason for not having them.
> GM you better hurry is you want to be able to call your Volt the second production electric car 'since god knows when'.
GM should know when since they made the first contemporary electric, the EV1. And then, God knows why GM had all of them destroyed.
Laughter is the Spackle of the Soul.
Man, I really love the tagging feature. When I saw this article it was tagged "whatcouldpossiblygowrong" followed by "hugeexplosion." Gave me a good chuckle.
Reminds me of my favorite Simpsons Quote. "Young Lady, In this house we obey all the laws of Thermodynamics."
What's a Sig???
The thought that Hybrids are a good compromise is just flat out wrong.
1) Hybrids have two engines, so they are heavier. Hence less distance on battery, less mpg, etc. from either one of the engines in the car.
2) They have to have room for both batteries and a gas tank, thus reducing available space.
3) It would be far better to get a trailer and load it up as a battery array for road trips and use a straight electric. While attaching a battery array for road trips isn't a cure all, because when you add the battery array trailer you've added weight. Adding weight reduces range. At some point you can't add any more battery to reach further. So with electrics there is a finite distance you can travel without a recharge regardless of how much battery power you add, which can easily be 300-600 miles. A well designed electric with the proper choice of battery can easily be built with a range of 100 to 300 miles with no additional battery packs (it's already been done in fact). Adding a trailer can easily triple this number, in most all cases. So, we're now talking a range of 300-900 miles on a single charge, but now you have to recharge the system. However, if you're creative you can find solutions to this. For instance. You build/buy a quick charge system. Travel as far as you can, go to a campground with electric hook ups. Pay for a night, plug in and charge your batteries, then either camp out or hit the road again or find a hotel. This will cost you from $8 to $30 per charge which should take you about 300-900 miles if you have a good enough battery pack. Where are you going to get 1 gallon (assuming a generous 30mpg) of gas for $0.27 and soon $3?
4) Other solutions are to find someplace were you can plug into their electric for a charge, or someone that has a power generator you can hook up to or you can carry along your own power generator. Of course, by going the power generator route you're actually defeating the purpose of electrics three fold. The kind of generators we're talking about may dump more pollution than the original gas engine, you may not save anything, and you could get the same thing or better by going hybrid. No, to benefit from electric vehicles you want to plug in and charge, not use a gas engine to charge it.
With coal, we have to worry about soot. Nuclear power, there's an issue of nuclear waste. Gasoline, and the polar ice caps will melt and we're all gonna die. What about the byproduct of using batteries? They have to be replaced at some point and what do we do with the old ones? Of course we'd recycle them, but they are not 100% recyclable.
Chewbacon
The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
So do we put "explosions that can be seen from outer space" into the safety feature column?
No shit, Sherlock. I was JOKING! WTF?
"THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
I wish we could build these soon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeder_reactor to work until we get these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_reactor
Yes I saw one of those (gasoline fueled vehicles) explode due to a slow speed bump, at most. You are mistaken taking familiarity with a dangerous substance implying its implicit safety. Gasoline is highly volatile substance that easily explodes in the gas phase and burns lustily as a liquid. Therefore, I suggest for your own safety you immediately have your gas tank inspected along with all fuel lines and connections from this day forward, routinely.
Sure Li metal is extremely dangerous, however, the battery chemistries may combine into a less dangerous form should it be exposed to water. However, I would expect too these vehicles to be crash tested by both the Insurance industry and by federal safety departments upon these vehicles being released into the wild. If you do not trust them, check Consumers Report after a year or two. Until then make sure not to hit any vehicle in the parking lot labeled with PHEV with your humongous Bummer, diesel powered V-8 H-1. [I know you are safety conscious using a less explosive fuel, but it too burns fiercely. You can never be too safe.]
It means your comment is redundant, because the op understood the thermodynamics.
It doesn't affect the veracity at all, but it rather substantially affects its relevance and insight.
The enemies of Democracy are
Rags like Popular Science and Pop Mechanics had stories about electric vehicles 40 years ago. Pollution, rather than energy, was the main concern back then.
Not if you only drive downhill!