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Li-Ion Batteries Hit Final R&D Phase for Plug-in Cars
An anonymous reader writes "Tesla finally delivered its first production model of the all-electric Roadster this month. Coinciding with that, researchers from the big automakers and their outsourced startup labs are hitting stride in the development of cheap, high-powered lithium-ion batteries. These may actually end up in our garages. Toyota, in fact, says it's got enough of the chemistry down to roll out a test fleet for the plug-in Prius before the end of 2009. It's mass production of battery tech that's the holdup — which might mean Mercedes' electric hybrids beat the Prius to market en masse by 2010 or 2011."
I'm still waiting for the Ariel-Atom-based Wrightspeed X1.
Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.
Looks nice to me!
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Please, please, tell me they are not getting their batteries from Sony!
"50 cars caught fire on I-4 today."
My blog
No matter how well R&D goes for these vehicles, I don't see how we can successfully convert people to electric cars without some sort of infrastructure in place. Sure, you can charge your car at home for the daily commute, but what about road trips?
Plug-in hybrids are a good compromise, though.
How safe is your huge tank of extremely flammable gasoline in case of a car crash?
c++;
It's all a matter of educating the public on the safety concerns of what they're driving. "Normal" drivers have been sitting a few feet away from a long, controlled explosion for generations. The only snag here is forcing people to change over from their old habits, but those bugs will work themselves out (or blow themselves up) given time.
Slashdot Burying Stories About Slashdot Media Owned
A good point. I also wonder about some of these hydrogen powered cars - most of which usually have a tank of hydrogen under high pressure. What could possibly go wrong? I guess all of the different new technologies have their drawbacks.
Actually, a lot of research has gone into making those tanks as safe a possible.
In a crash: they will bend, not break.
How often does a car catch file after a crash? Only very rarely.
OK, so rather than pollute the air as we burn fossil fuels, we'll fill up landfills with bazillions of batteries. Electric cars might not be as "green" and wonderful as people like to think.
These batteries are probably recyclable but it isn't cost effective, based on what I rad. So, the potential to recycle is there but are people actually going to do it?
How to Download YouTube Videos
How well to these batteries fair in the cold? If they are like the Li-ions in my video camera you'll get to the end of the street then they'll die.
In the not too distant future, next Sunday A.D.
Look, no matter what tech we use, you have to get the ergs to run the thing, be it via electricity from a plug or electrolyzed h2. You are looking at massive power plants. But for most city folks, these things are placed well out of site in the country-side, where the inhabitants do not have the political power 9due to low populations) to do anything about it.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to think "profiling is worse than the slaughter of innocent people..."
...and hopefully good riddance. Say, did you know that an electric vehicle was the first to travel at 100km/h...
...in 1899!!!
I've run into this education issue personally. I have a sand rail (what most people call a "Dune Buggy"). The gas tank is right behind the passenger's heads, inside the roll cage. My mother freaked when she saw that - she was concerned it was so close to passengers. "What happens in an accident?" she asked. I pointed out that the best place for the tank is where there's the most protection, and that's near the people, inside the roll cage. If it were outside, you'd guarantee a ruptured tank (no body skins on this vehicle, just tubular frame). Inside, your body would take as much damage as it takes to rupture the tank, meaning you'd probably be dead of blunt force trauma before a fire started from a ruptured tank.
Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
Heat is a problem with Li-ion batteries. If they get too hot they explode. Leaving a phone in a car with direct sunlight is enough.
Seems a bit odd they would be used in cars.
Actually pretty safe.
How often do you hear about cars blowing up in a car crash? I mean aside from Hollywood-style movies.
Leaking gasoline my incinerate and burn, but it won't detonate on impact or when getting wet.
Two things I'm not 100% sure about when it comes to Lithium-Ion.
Apparently, part of the business strategy of selling electric cars is to let the customers drive them around for a year and then recall them for no apparent reason, with no option for the customer to keep them.
I wonder when it will happen this time.
I'm sure it's Bush's fault. Somehow.
"They said I probly shouldn't fly with just one eye," "I am Bender. Please insert girder."
Wasn't that the point of him saying "How safe is that tank ..." ?
Anyway - any technology that stores a lot of energy is going to have some potential (ha ha) for danger. There haven't been that many problems with LiIon batteries when you take into account the number of batteries that exist in the world.
With that said, there's this problem of obtaining lithium which isn't nearly as abundant as nickel. I still like NiMH batteries for EVs, and I'm sure they will give lithium a run for the money (if not for weight). Even NiCd batteries are pretty good for electric cars, and the technology is practically antique. The issue with large NiMH cells (>10Ah) is that Texaco owns the patent.
In a crash: they will bend, not break.
How often does a car catch file after a crash? Only very rarely. If cartoons have taught me anything its that all accidents end in explosions.
Um, to the Telsa Motor's site, and they'll have answered this already. Basically a cell in the battery pack can be on fire, and it won't affect the other cells.
It's called product development.
Or, with an analogy, how will new computers hold up vs the current computers? If something was wrong with the current computers, you would think they should have built the new ones to start with.
(I do realize I'll be hanged for making an analogy without cars in it on Slashdot. But the argument is already about cars! Adding more cars into the analogy would probably cause a pile-up crash or something.)
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
Lithium iron phosphate batteries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery) are supposed to be pretty safe, at the expense of storing a bit less energy per size and weight than current Li-Ion batteries.
They are also made from relatively cheap and plentiful raw materials, so I'd expect them to become the most frequently used batteries in electric cars.
C - the footgun of programming languages
How often does a car catch file after a crash? Only very rarely.
Wrong. Everyone knows that cars always explode after a crash. Sometimes, though, the explosion happens after the driver and occupants escape to a safe distance.
I've seen it myself hundreds of times, both on TV and in movies.
Or, perhaps an increased demand for electricity might spur on searches for alternative ways of producing it rather than through the burning of coal. Geothermal, wind, solar, hydro and even nuclear power all hold some immediate promise in this regard as potentially more environmentally friendly alternatives. At least with an existing electric car infrastructure, as the centralized methods used for generating the electricity might slowly change over time, the infrastructure of existing cars wouldn't need to be upgraded with it.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
From what I've read (sorry I don't have specific sources), even charging a car from a dirty power plant ends up creating less emissions and requires less energy overall. You make a good point though about miners. Mining in the US is as safe as mining coal can probably be these days, but in China and other coal-exporting countries there aren't so many safety standards. And even no matter how safe it gets it's never going to be SAFE safe.
That's why it would be great to recharge these cars from a solar or wind source, where possible.
life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think
Is that to prevent people developing an alternative to petrol?
At least cars have evolved a little since the 60's, when cars would explode just before it hit something.
See Where Eagles Dare to see what I mean...
Everybody uses broad generalizations.
I would like to see the industry go. Granted Diesel deserved its bad rep as they escaped the EPA rules of the 70s (actually I think only gasoline automobiles got whacked). The problem is getting past zealots in California and other states who have taken on deciding for the rest of the country what they can have. Yes, rest of the country. These states acting on their own are large enough to force manufacturers to accomodate them instead of abandoning them simply with California being the base.
I still think that SUVs will again rule after a short decline. Once series hybrid and similar SUV's come along getting upwards if not more than 35 effective MPG people will have even less reason to switch. Look at it this way, with each big increase in MPG the incentive to move to a small car gets less and less. Me, I would love a SUV with 35+ capability in city and highway (crossover sized, though the upcoming VW small SUV might make that mileage)
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
That's why I recommend a wind generator be installed on every car. That way you can charge as you drive. Ever hang your hand out the car window and think "Wow, if I could just harness this power, I'd be rich!"
-matthew
"THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
Granted, that's from the opinion of a commuter and occasional traveler - I'm not with Fire and Rescue or anything like that.
The electricity to charge all those batteries has to come from someplace. all you are doing is shifting the the consumption of fossil fuel from one place to another. The energy required to manufacture these batteries in VERY large quantities has to come from someplace as well.
Last time I checked there are not many rivers left to damn up for hydro so the juice has to come from someplace and since fusion power isn't quite ready for prime time you are going to have to build a hell of a lot more power plants to transfer the power generation from a facility on 4 wheels to some very big stationary ones.
That being said, you can gain a hell of a lot of efficiency because large power plants do much better then the internal combustion engine, but they still have to burn something, either that or be prepared to have a big nuclear power plant coming to a neighborhood near you.
Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
The charging efficiency of NiMh is absolutely abominable compared to LiIon. Using NiMh is throwing power in the toilet.
Whoever modded me troll can't recognize sarcasm. The point I was making was a sudden rush to electric vehicles could have unintended consequences. From my perspective, we need to solve several technological / infrastructure /economic hurdles before electric can be a reality.
1) There needs to be a real change in battery/capacitor technology. Batteries are slow charging, and composed of hazardous materials. They are also heavy and inefficient. They also generate a lot of heat. Exploding laptops come to mind. Capacitors charge quickly but also discharge quickly which brings its own issues. They also are hazardous.
2) How do quickly charge a capacitor with the energy to power are car? The energy requirements are enormous. I can't envision stopping in for a charge. A battery / Super Capacitor hybrid that can be easily swapped out is more likely.
3) How do cope with the increased need for electricity? All the things you are more environmentally friendly than coal. But twice a day the road to my house is closed due to a train that carries almost a hundred cars filled with coal. And I don't live anywhere near a coal mine. There is a nuclear power plant nearby. It will be closed in 2015 and nobody has voted for a new one. We would need a whole lot more of them and nobody wants one in their back yard.
4) Who is going to pay for the infrastructure needed? It won't be Bill Gates, IBM, General Motors et al. It will be people who struggle with day to days bills and health care.
5) The remark I made about illegal immigration is right on the money. That is the the only steadily increasing demographic here. The reason we outsource, hire illegal immigrants is to exploit them for lower wages. Who do you do you thing will be growing corn, building power plants etc?
What is needed is a real innovation something that radically changes the transfer and storage of energy. Much like oil replaced steam. Nothing is free, but we need to find real alternatives with more efficiency and less of the downsides.
...so the next thing we are going to see is some Chinese company producing fake "LiFePo" battery, consisting of nothing than Lithium-Ion.
;=)
That is when we will see the exploding cars...
Disclaimer: I am *for* the electric/hybrid car, I drive one myself
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I was just thinking of that the other day. My guess is that your mileage-per-recharge will just plain suck in the winter months.
It's either that, or they start making EV's with a kerosene/gasoline/propane heater option.
Another thing I would like to know is how well these batteries function in freezing and sub-zero conditions, since chemical batteries have a reputation for performing poorly when cold. In such a case, you might need something like a battery pre-heater to get any decent performance out of it, which only makes the situation worse.
If you go through the numbers for charge time and power on the Tesla site and press reports (70A @ 220V for 3.5 hours to go from flat to full), and the DOE number on CO2 produced per kWh for coal plants, you can figure CO2 emissions from a Tesla roadster powered entirely by coal-derived electricity. It ends up being considerably better ordinary gasoline automobiles.
However, there's a bunch of caveats there.
1) It depends on the range being what Tesla says it is, in the production model.
2) It depends on new batteries. Loss of charging efficiency or increase in self-discharge with age is possible. (Loss of capacity is inevitable, but doesn't affect efficiency directly)
3) It ignores transmission and distribution losses. I think these are fairly small nowadays, though.
4) The Tesla is a tiny car built on a Lotus Elise chassis. It may not scale well.
They delivered the first car to a company executive, not to a paying customer. Does that actually count as "in production"? The picture from the article is also interesting - they are pushing the car out of a box truck - does it not have a reverse gear? (They've admitted to having problems with transmissions so far).
I like the concept, I just hope they can pull it off before going under. The official release date keeps getting pushed back, upper management has been shuffled, and quite a bit of the staff has been let go recently.
Hmmm...
1. Rent a car for said road trip out of the savings on $4+/gallon gasoline - for a road trip diesel will probably make more sense than gasoline. Diesel engine vehicles can beat hybrids on highway milage.
2. Fly or take a train instead
3. Rent a trailor with a generator(maybe a small, high efficiency diesel?)
In the longer run, it shouldn't take too much work to install charging booths at restraunts. With a 300 mile range at something like 75mph, you can schedule chargings around reasonable meal stops. Stuff like drive from 8 to noon, eat, 1-5, eat, 5-9, get a motel(and plug in). Drive before breakfast for even more charge, but then you'd also be busting recommended driving times(over 12 hours total on the road in a day).
I don't read AC A human right
The "fuel" in a battery contains both oxidiser and reducer, exactly like an explosive, and can catch fire without the admission of air. If the combustion occurs in the middle of a battery pack, the explosion could be very nasty indeed. (Interestingly, open lead acid batteries are relatively safe because heat evaporates the electrolyte until they can no longer conduct current. The main risk is explosion of the hydrogen air mix produced or, in the case of a steel boat, sinking because the overflowing sulphuric acid just ate through the hull.)
However, we should not get too paranoid about this. The biggest danger to life is due to kinetics, not explosion. The hundred thousand plus people who get killed by vehicles every year in the developed world were mostly killed by impact. Electric vehicles may well be safer - they will be slower than current gas engined vehicles, and there will be a greater temptation to build in advanced control systems. Even the Tesla doesn't disprove this - it will cost more than an equivalent Porsche, and I cannot see too many of them being sold to boy racers.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
One of the huge bonuses associated with electric cars is reduced maintenance. There are no timing chains to break, no radiators to leak, no oil to be changed. Electric motors are highly reliable and very easy to fix. In the documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car?" they discussed that the dealers did not like the electric cars at all because of the tremendously lowered need for maintenance and repair. (Of course the mechanics loved them because the cars were easy to work and and the mechanics didn't end up covered in oil and grease all the time)
If you really do a lot of extended road trips, you should get a gas car or hybrid, but for everybody else the electric car + renting a gas car occasionally would be the much better choice.
That's the funniest thing about watching American TV in the UK. Everything in America *seems* to be made out of petrol and dynamite. Every car crash ends up in a giant mushroom cloud. But the divers get out and keep shooting each other.
On UK TV most cars crash and crumple, bits of metal spear through people.
Open source, flash charts
Using a car analogy when the topic itself is cars would be recursion.
It would be even better if you could say that analogy with a LISP.
:(){
Yeah, we need to start developing a system that will allow us to get electricity to the vast majority of the U.S.
.
I got it... here is what we do:
1. Build poles along the high ways that can carry this "electricty"
2. Engineer "electric power plants" that can produce this "electricty"
3. Run wires from "electric power plants" along the poles to thier end destinations
4. At the end of those poles, create "connectors" so that the cars can plug into them...
5. ?????
6. Profit!!!
A feel a little bad for the sarcasm...
.
P.S. You do realize that the gas pumps already have electricy ran to them... Just modify the adapter (so that "electric piracy" might become as popular as gas syphoning...) and put a meter on the "electric" pump and Viola... Infrastructre is in place...
.
Post Post Script: Of course, I would always carry around my UPS just in case!!!!
As for Lithium batteries, they do need to be protected by electronic circuitry and mechanical enclosures but no more so than a fuel tank. If you shoot a bullet through it, they could produce a thermal runaway (fire). But if someone is shooting at you, you have bigger concerns.
Net is we need to move cars off of Saudi oil and onto our grid, then we can have independent discussions on how we power our grid. In CA, we are ~ 50% renewable. Search for eGrid and you will find data that supports the fact that burning coal and natural gas in power plants is many times more clean than in cars, 2-stroke weedwackers, and other gas applications.
Neil Maguire Alternative Energy Engineer
...because of the "cheap" in LiFePo. Any Lithium-Ion battery needs some cathode, and I guess that LiFePo will eventually be cheaper than the cobalt oxide that is common in today's laptop batteries.
At that point, making fake "LiFePo" batteries from old technology will actually be more expensive than real LiFePo. Scammers might still sell you second-rate batteries that don't last long, but the risk of them exploding under your butt will be greatly reduced.
C - the footgun of programming languages
Carbeque!
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
I know from personal experience that you have around 5 seconds from when your engine bursts into flames to when the car explodes.
I just wish they'd stop making them so that they immediately burst into flames as soon as they come to rest upside down.
The enemies of Democracy are
In a crash: they will blend, not break.
There, fixed it for you.By installing any wind powered generator, you would be adding air resistance to the vehicle (even sticking your hand out the window adds air resistance), and the power you could get out of such a generator would always be less than the additional power you have to consume to overcome that resistance.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
That whoosh over your head isn't due to the vehicle speed.
Hey if you're not looking for practicality you could put those wheel mount electric motors on the front wheels and leave your gasoline tranny and drive shaft untouched on the rear. (I am not a mechanical engineer)
GM is developing the Chevy Volt which is slated for production at the end of 2010 as a 2011 model. GM should have test mules out there later this year. Progress looks good. Car specs are good. More information at http://www.gm-volt.com/
That must of comforted her no end, instead of just being burned you're also broken as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3THUk5_jEw
...there's this problem of obtaining lithium which isn't nearly as abundant as nickel. Lithium is about half as abundant as nickel, which isn't that great a difference. For comparison, boron, only half as abundant as lithium, is thrown away with the wash by people who use Borax.Considering that the lithium used will eventually be recycled, I don't expect lithium availability to be a major long term bottleneck.
a,e,i,o,u and sometimes w and y (at be if of up cwm by)
My wife 'gets it' and isn't afraid to ride with me. Mom's still not comfortable with the whole car-without-a-body-zipping-along-at-70MPH thing.
Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
And that affects the veracity of my comment how, exactly?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Ah, I was just trying to make a droll joke about how you might be putting idea's in her head ;)
Funny reading about electric cars 25 years after the first stories came out, and finding lack of mass produced batteries still being the #1 reason for not having them.
Sources?
Plenty of people disagree with you.
http://www.evworld.com/library/lithium_shortage.pdf
http://ergobalance.blogspot.com/2006/10/electric-vehicles-and-world-lithium.html
> GM you better hurry is you want to be able to call your Volt the second production electric car 'since god knows when'.
GM should know when since they made the first contemporary electric, the EV1. And then, God knows why GM had all of them destroyed.
Laughter is the Spackle of the Soul.
Man, I really love the tagging feature. When I saw this article it was tagged "whatcouldpossiblygowrong" followed by "hugeexplosion." Gave me a good chuckle.
Reminds me of my favorite Simpsons Quote. "Young Lady, In this house we obey all the laws of Thermodynamics."
What's a Sig???
The thought that Hybrids are a good compromise is just flat out wrong.
1) Hybrids have two engines, so they are heavier. Hence less distance on battery, less mpg, etc. from either one of the engines in the car.
2) They have to have room for both batteries and a gas tank, thus reducing available space.
3) It would be far better to get a trailer and load it up as a battery array for road trips and use a straight electric. While attaching a battery array for road trips isn't a cure all, because when you add the battery array trailer you've added weight. Adding weight reduces range. At some point you can't add any more battery to reach further. So with electrics there is a finite distance you can travel without a recharge regardless of how much battery power you add, which can easily be 300-600 miles. A well designed electric with the proper choice of battery can easily be built with a range of 100 to 300 miles with no additional battery packs (it's already been done in fact). Adding a trailer can easily triple this number, in most all cases. So, we're now talking a range of 300-900 miles on a single charge, but now you have to recharge the system. However, if you're creative you can find solutions to this. For instance. You build/buy a quick charge system. Travel as far as you can, go to a campground with electric hook ups. Pay for a night, plug in and charge your batteries, then either camp out or hit the road again or find a hotel. This will cost you from $8 to $30 per charge which should take you about 300-900 miles if you have a good enough battery pack. Where are you going to get 1 gallon (assuming a generous 30mpg) of gas for $0.27 and soon $3?
4) Other solutions are to find someplace were you can plug into their electric for a charge, or someone that has a power generator you can hook up to or you can carry along your own power generator. Of course, by going the power generator route you're actually defeating the purpose of electrics three fold. The kind of generators we're talking about may dump more pollution than the original gas engine, you may not save anything, and you could get the same thing or better by going hybrid. No, to benefit from electric vehicles you want to plug in and charge, not use a gas engine to charge it.
With coal, we have to worry about soot. Nuclear power, there's an issue of nuclear waste. Gasoline, and the polar ice caps will melt and we're all gonna die. What about the byproduct of using batteries? They have to be replaced at some point and what do we do with the old ones? Of course we'd recycle them, but they are not 100% recyclable.
Chewbacon
The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
So do we put "explosions that can be seen from outer space" into the safety feature column?
No shit, Sherlock. I was JOKING! WTF?
"THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
I wish we could build these soon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeder_reactor to work until we get these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_reactor
Yes I saw one of those (gasoline fueled vehicles) explode due to a slow speed bump, at most. You are mistaken taking familiarity with a dangerous substance implying its implicit safety. Gasoline is highly volatile substance that easily explodes in the gas phase and burns lustily as a liquid. Therefore, I suggest for your own safety you immediately have your gas tank inspected along with all fuel lines and connections from this day forward, routinely.
Sure Li metal is extremely dangerous, however, the battery chemistries may combine into a less dangerous form should it be exposed to water. However, I would expect too these vehicles to be crash tested by both the Insurance industry and by federal safety departments upon these vehicles being released into the wild. If you do not trust them, check Consumers Report after a year or two. Until then make sure not to hit any vehicle in the parking lot labeled with PHEV with your humongous Bummer, diesel powered V-8 H-1. [I know you are safety conscious using a less explosive fuel, but it too burns fiercely. You can never be too safe.]
First off, no resource, with the possible exception of helium, is in danger of "running out" on Earth, or even "running low" (helium is a special case because it cannot realistically be manufactured in quantity, it is only retained in certain geological formations (along with natural gas), and the planet's reserves of it are being released as we extract thenatural gas). When people say we're "running out" of something, they mean that there's going to be a price spike. This can be from two causes:
1) Cheap ways to produce it are no longer viable. Petroleum may end up falling into this category as we run out of light sweet crude and have to fall back to bitumen, coal liquefaction, shale, etc.
2) There are a shortage of mines to produce it or a shortage of recovery circuits for mines for other products that produce it in their tailings. Indium is a good example of this (used in LCD screens and CIGS solar cells), whose price was low until these technologies started being produced in bulk and whose production can now no longer keep up with demand.
Both of these types of shortages can be addressed. The first case leads to higher market prices until either technology or resource exploration can catch up. The second case leads to a temporary price spike (sometimes a huge one), but is typically resolved in 2-6 years or so after it raises its head (if there's a profit to be made, you better believe someone will try to do so).
Margaret Thatcher died the other day. It was a sad day, but I like to think that she's looking up at us right now."
* NiMH has significantly less energy density than even the "safe, long-life" li-ion chemistries
* Even in bulk production, they're not much cheaper than the "safe, long-life" li-ion
* NiMH wastes 30-50% of the electricity you put into it when charging/discharging (li-ion loses a fraction of one percent)
* The wasted energy is dissipated as heat, so you have to actively cool the batteries (using up even more power).
* They fundamentally cannot fast charge
* They leak energy like a sieve
* NiCd is worse than NiMH in almost all respects.
* Texaco-Chevron owns only 20% of the company with the patent (Cobasys)
* Cobasys only has the rights for US use of NiMH in vehicles.
* Cobasys *has* relicensed with PEVE to allow them to produce large NiMH worldwide (it was in 2006, I believe). It's a lack of demand for NiMH EVs among the manufacturers that's kept them away (except for the Vectrix)
Some people put way too much stock in "Who Killed The Electric Car". Here's my summary of the conspiracy theory, which I posted on the Aptera forum:
Let's take a look at where your conspiracy stands. In 1990, GM had a prototype EV that was already incredibly advanced. Nonetheless, with this incredibly advanced EV, it still took them six years after the new CARB standards to bring a vehicle to market. GM was really serious about it, even though they only made a little over a thousand of them. All of the other manufacturers were also really serious, even though they made even less. The vehicle only cost $34K and wasn't a loss leader, despite that, ignoring profit and liability, GM spent $80K on each of them (meaning that profit would require selling them for ~$100K). There were 5,000 people who wanted to buy them, even though there weren't really, as the vast majority of them didn't follow up after being informed of the stats and (subsidized) price. Then, in 2000, Chevron-Texaco bought Cobasys. Panasonic stopped paying the licensing fees, and they were in the right for doing so. Cobasys tried to get the money for the licensing fees for the patent that they spent a fortune on, and they were in the wrong for doing so. Chevron was trying to sabotage this obviously profitable vehicle by pressing suit in 2001, yet not a single EV manufacturer stopped making EVs until, out of sheer coincidence, the CARB rules that required zero-emission vehicles in California were overturned, wherein they *all* stopped making them. This obviously was due to oil company repression, having nothing to do with the CARB rule changes. GM had already shut down almost all of their part lines, but somehow it was the lack of batteries that killed it (once again, having nothing to do with the CARB rule changes right before they all discontinued their EVs). Despite the tens of billions of dollars that go into facing lawsuits, and the fact that waivers don't begin to eliminate lawsuits, liability was just a cheap excuse. And keeping part lines open, who cares? The fact that GM was leaking money like a sieve was irrelevant. GM was so enthralled with the profit potential for their revolutionary EV1 that they sold the patent for the vehicle's batteries to a third party. Apparently Chevron had paid GM, so that even though GM saw electric cars as having huge profit potential, the potential to replace gasoline cars, and the fact that GM's income is in the hundreds of billions of dollars per year, Chevron apparently had that kind of disposable income for a big enough payoff that GM would sabotage trillions of dollars of future income. Big, big payoff! And they made these billions to trillions of dollar secret deals without the SEC or IRS noticing. Chevron not only did this with GM, but also with the other major auto manufacturers. So in the pocket of Chevron was GM that they actively continue trying to repress the EV1 to this day. Of course, they had a moment of insanity and instead of destroying them all, they outright donated several dozen to universities and museums where everyone could see them. Bu
Margaret Thatcher died the other day. It was a sad day, but I like to think that she's looking up at us right now."
Ok, so they own 20% but they control the rights in the US. The point was that someone owns a patent on large NiMH cells. Regardless of your feelings on their inferiority, I still feel that they are better. I'm ignoring your rant on corporate conspiracy ... I didn't say anything about a conspiracy.
They're still cheaper, and nickel is less susceptible to a price spike than is lithium.
What is your repeated reference to "safe, long-life" lithium ion? Lithium polymer?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundances_of_the_elements_(data_page)
World reserves of elements are usually misleading since the interest is in ores that are profitable at current prices and with current technology. An increase in demand will often lead to changes in both.
a,e,i,o,u and sometimes w and y (at be if of up cwm by)
Regardless of your feelings on their inferiority, I still feel that they are better.
And that feeling is based on...? I just listed a bunch of stats, and your stats in favor of NiMH are...?
I didn't say anything about a conspiracy.
No, you just did a sort of "wink, wink" pointing out who owned Cobasys. If you don't think there's a conspiracy, then why mention that?
They're still cheaper, and nickel is less susceptible to a price spike than is lithium.
Not that the price of the battery is largely due to the lithium itself; it's mostly anode and cathode construction costs.
"Lithium metal is costly (about $50/lb), but the pure metallic form is not required for Li-ion cells. The actual lithium compound used to make cathode materials, lithium carbonate (Li2CO3), is considerably less expensive. The price history of lithium carbonate is shown in Figure 5.6. The average price reported for lithium carbonate in the United States at the end of 1999 was $4.47/kg ($2.03/lb). However, increased production in Chile and Argentina has led to a recent oversupply, and actual prices paid have been as much as 50% below the list, matching the price of only $0.90/lb from Chile and Argentina. A shutdown of the Argentine production due to process problems caused the price to rise again, but the price was still below list in early 2000 (Ober 2000). Recycled materials and sales from DOE stock put further downward pressure on prices. Large demand for batteries could eventually drive the price up. At the current list price, the lithium carbonate for the batteries in an EV like the Altra would cost about $100, and the material for an HEV battery would cost about $5"
So, to sum up, $10-15k worth of li-ion batteries contains about $100 worth of lithium ore (lithium carbonate). And you think the price of lithium is concerning why?
What is your repeated reference to "safe, long-life" lithium ion? Lithium polymer?
See, this is the problem with debating about something that you're not well versed in. There are over a dozen different li-ion chemistries with long lifespans and virtually no potential for offgassing, and this has been widely known and discussed in the EV community for years now. About the only chemistry that *isn't* is found in standard li-ion "laptop batteries" and li-poly (LiCoO2 cathode, graphite anode). You've got your phosphates, your titanates, your spinels, and all sorts of other chemistries, all of which are safe, long-life, and should be notably cheaper than LiCoO2/graphite when produced in similar volumes, and usually which can be charged very rapidly. A123 is currently the big name in the business, but there are dozens of other companies out there making them (especially with the phosphates).
Margaret Thatcher died the other day. It was a sad day, but I like to think that she's looking up at us right now."
Helium can be manufactured in quantity by freezing it out of the atmosphere. This is not currently economically feasible, but we'll see what happens to the price of Helium. The real problem with burning petroleum is that the sequestered carbon is being released into the atmosphere, not that it could run out.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
The atmosphere is only 720 ppb helium by mass, so not really.
Margaret Thatcher died the other day. It was a sad day, but I like to think that she's looking up at us right now."
It doesn't affect the veracity at all, but it rather substantially affects its relevance and insight.
The enemies of Democracy are
Rags like Popular Science and Pop Mechanics had stories about electric vehicles 40 years ago. Pollution, rather than energy, was the main concern back then.
Not if you only drive downhill!