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iPhone SDK Rules Block Skype, Firefox, Java ...

An anonymous reader writes "Apple's iPhone software development kit is already drawing complaints due to the strict terms of service. Voice over IP apps like Skype that attempt to use the cellular data connection will be blocked. Competing web browsers Firefox and Opera are forbidden. Even Sun is now backpedaling on its recent announcement of a java port, noting that there are some legal issues. Critics are already comparing Apple's methods to Comcast's anti-net neutrality filtering, and Microsoft's Netscape-killing antitrust tactics. Could Apple face government regulators?"

149 of 800 comments (clear)

  1. Good way to turn a positive thing negative by downix · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The SDK made the iPhone interesting and attractive to new developers. Sun adding java added to that. But now Apple slamming the door on innovation will only drive those that wish for such a product to go elsewhere, such as to Googles Android or the OpenMoko, for examples.

    --
    Karma Whoring for Fun and Profit.
    1. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by armada · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I agree. I am a fan of most of the industrial design and ui design that comes out of Apple but if they lock this up I will be buying an Android or an Openmoko instead (i've been wating for a 3g Iphone and the release of the SDK). However, unless the government forces us all to buy iphones or all the other manufacturers go out of business because of it's leet crunchy goodness, I dont see how this could warrant antitrust sanctions and government involvement. If you don't like it. Buy ze other one.

      --
      "This message was sent from an Apple //GS"
    2. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by llamalad · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You've got it exactly right.

      I've been planning on snagging an iPhone as soon as the next model is released.

      Unless a) this situation plays out differently than currently seems likely or b) I come to decide that a phone is just an appliance and I can live with Apple's constraints... I will not be buying an iPhone after all.

    3. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by Ultra64 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "how dare Apple tell their customers they can't run the apps they want on the phones that they *OWN*,"
      is more like it
    4. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by MindStalker · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Java isn't exactly dead. But either way this slams the door on ALL web applications and applets that don't run on the existing iPhone browser.

    5. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by b96miata · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ....available to all
      (all who already have or can afford to buy an intel mac with leopard)
      , and easy to program
      (to anyone who knows objective C)
      and port apps
      (so long as they don't do anything apple doesn't like, since they control the sole distribution channel)
      without using java which is all but a dead language
      (that happens to run on the majority of cell phones sold today, as opposed to ObjC which is apple's baby just as much as java is Sun's)

    6. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by skeletor935 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You aren't forced to buy an iPhone. They don't have to do shit for you. It could be like all other cell phones and not allow you to put anything on it.

    7. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by noidentity · · Score: 2, Funny

      the idea in it of it's self

      Wow. I think the phrase you're looking for is "the idea in and of itself"

    8. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by brad.lowe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just wait.. the apps that get built for the iPhone are going to be freaking amazing. Boo hoo about 2% of the apps that can't be ported due to a license or design limitation. If you're a hacker, go ahead a try to port skype or mozilla or something--being "not blessed" by Apple will make it all the more appealing. For example, see how much attention jailbreaking the iPhone was. I'm a C/C++/Java programmer and I'm learning the nutty objective C syntax so I can write some apps... Its been a long while since I've been this excited about a new platform to write for. Sure, it's a pain that I can't use my existing J2ME code--but I have yet to see a single J2ME application that actually looked good and didn't crash my crappy RAZR. The end results will be compelling. There will be no equal in terms of a polished UI, market share, and devoted users and developers. This story gets it all wrong.. Should be about the 98% of the apps that can finally be available in a slick, beautiful, mobile package.

    9. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Gawd, nobody wants frigging Java anywhere near anything they have to actually use, much less *pay* to use. Has anybody, anywhere EVER had a positive user experience with a Java app? It depends. Swing based apps are awful, every single one of them I've used and the few I'm forced to use at work are awful. The slowness, ugliness*, lack of integration, bugginess, etc drive me insane. There's really only one Swing-based app I can tolerate: JAP. Other than that, Freenet, and one SWT-based app: Eclipse**. I've also had good experiences with webapps.

      * "Native" look and "feel" is a joke. The GTK+ emulation looks awful, nothing looks quite right. Select/combo boxes are nowhere even close to native. Nothing behaves properly, and there's still zero integration with the desktop. That pisses me off even more than the ugly purple theme so I just disable the "native" look when I can.

      ** Every other SWT-based app I've used gets on my nerves. Eclipse I can tolerate since I love it's editor and am addicted to several plugins. Nothing else out there is even half as nice. It's configuration, however, is an abomination.
    10. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by samkass · · Score: 3, Insightful

      using java which is all but a dead language.

      There are a LOT more Java developers out there than there are Objective-C developers, and a lot more people learning Java every year than are learning Objective-C. While the SDK is pretty reasonable, as someone who's coded on both platforms I have to say that not only is Java significantly nicer, but the IDE's are dramatically better than XCode.

      Mac developers love to poo-poo Java, but Objective-C will probably never be as popular as Java is. And if/when Java disappears, it'll probably be at the hands of C# combined with scripting languages or something akin to that instead of Objective-C.

      If Apple really wanted to open their platform up to innovation, they'd open it up to Java.

      --
      E pluribus unum
    11. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by thomas.galvin · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I got modded all to hell for saying this in the last article, but whatever: Apple's decision regarding the SDK and iTunes distribution model have assured that I will not be buying an iPhone. I was holding out, waiting to see what the SDK had to offer, and I've come to the conclusion that it's better to wait for Android than to lock myself into Steve's phone. The Mac is probably the best development platform I've ever used, but the iPhone is useless to me. It flies in the face of the hacker/tinkerer ethic.

    12. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by b96miata · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Which phones are you referring to?

      With the exception of Verizon, who does a similar lockdown deal with BREW, most phones have a J2ME VM on them and are quite capable of running just about anything.

      I've got Gmail/Gmaps/Opera mini among others running on my plain old (non-smart) phone. They were all free and the only way my carrier impeded my installing them right over the air was with a single warning screen about installing 3rd party apps.

    13. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by Qzukk · · Score: 3, Insightful

      let me play snake on my microwave that I *OWN*!

      Nobody's stopping you from trying, and that's the point.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    14. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by sitkill · · Score: 5, Informative

      This slashdot post is entirely sensationalism at its worse. If anyone had read the articles attached: Skype banned: "Apple To Allow VoIP on iPhone But...", it doesn't talk about Skype being banned, but being restricted. The firefox issue seems to be dealing with the fact that no interpreted languages are accepted (javascript I assume), and no plugin arch. are allowed. Actually, I'd gladly accept a no-plugin firefox. No more bloated firefox. And really, how many other mobile browsers allow plugins? (I'm honestly asking...). For sun, it's some legal issues that have come up. They haven't BLOCKED anything. To go from the article (which is entirely positive on Apple), and turn it around to be negative is doing a disservice to the original author. Saying that everything is being blocked is silly. If you want to play in the game, you gotta follow the rules. If you don't, well, there's always hockey.

    15. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by s.bots · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your parent wasn't arguing that it wasn't a 'best-selling phone' (Which it isn't, the best selling in North America would be from RIM)

      What GP was trying to get at was that if Apple wanted the iPhone to be a truly competitive and flexible smart phone, the best way to accomplish that would be to open the interface completely to third party apps with the SDK.

    16. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by recoiledsnake · · Score: 4, Informative

      It could be like all other cell phones and not allow you to put anything on it. Drinking koolaid much? A wide array of phones, including Windows Mobile phones allow you put everything on them. Windows Mobile itself has more than 5000 software titles available for it with none of the BS restrictions or 30% revenue 'sharing'.
      --
      This space for rent.
    17. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by FyRE666 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The funny thing is, Apple have always had far more overt anti-competitive practices than MS. It's a blessing that MS actually managed to prevent Apple from owning the desktop OS market, as the tie-in with hardware too would make the IT world a much less innovative, and much more expensive place to be.

      Many people could have guessed Apple would pull this stunt too - remember, the ONLY reason this SDK exists at all is due to the existing cracked iphone/itouch development movement. Apple want to cash in, but on their terms of course. Hopefully developers will simply continue using the unofficial methods to develop software.

      I'm sure the usual "Apple shiny!!!" fanboys will continue to defend this, but most free-thinking people can see the way Apple operate. For the record, I also own an itouch, imac and mini - I just don't drink the koolaid...

    18. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by hoggoth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > nazi-ish rules for the iPhone SDK

      Just to clarify a subtle point: Apple sets rules on developing apps for their proprietary consumer electronic product, nazis slaughter millions of innocent people in attempted genocide.

      Thought I'd help clear that up in case anyone wasn't clear on the difference.

      --
      - For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
    19. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by Glock27 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Yes everyone learns it, but aside from a few web apps no one uses it.

      Says falcon5768, who's an authority because of...?

      As opposed to monster.com, where "Java developer" returns "> 5000" hits, "C++ developer returns 2457 hits, "Perl developer" which returns 1134 hits, or "Python developer" which returns 300?

      Java is undoubtedly the most widely used language for current development. So much for "no one".

      It's really not too bad, just not ideal for the highest performance and real time niches. Even so, gcj (for instance) comes close.

      --
      Galileo: "The Earth revolves around the Sun!"
      Score: -1 100% Flamebait
    20. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by e4g4 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Bah, you're so far off it's not even funny. I'm running a native terminal on my iPhone. It's got Ruby, Python, and (horrors) Java running on it - each with Objective C bridges (except Ruby). I have root on my phone, for the first time ever. So, yeah - the iPhone does not officially support the hacker/tinkerer ethic - so fucking what? Unofficially supporting it is good enough for me - it is by far the best *nix based phone on the market (oh wait, it's the *only* *nix based phone on the market - that actually works).

      The 2.0 software may break the current jailbreak methods, but again, so what, I've already got 3rd party apps on my phone.

      --
      The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. - Albert Einstein
    21. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by cromar · · Score: 2, Informative

      Objective C is a cool language, and is super easy to pick up if you know C++ or Java.

    22. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by norkakn · · Score: 3, Interesting

      While the intel iMac part is regrettable, I don't think that there would be enough demand for other platforms to warrant a port. While it is a stripped down version of OS X, it is still OS X and having a cross development toolchain would greatly complicate things. I get the feeling that the SDK is 90% internal tools.

      Objective C is pretty easy to pick up. It really is the language that you want to use for OS X development. Everything fits together rather well, and it is designed to make the developer's life easier. If you know another C like language, you can pick up the basics of ObjC in a weekend. It is also a superset of C, so you can program straight C if you prefer.

      You can also use the unofficial SDK. One of the big advantages of the official one is being able to distribute through Apple.

      It's certainly not perfect, but it is better than what a lot of people are saying.

    23. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by Yetihehe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, I'd gladly accept a no-plugin firefox. No more bloated firefox.
      You can just not use plugins. But I would like to use them. So it is crippled.

      They haven't BLOCKED anything
      They legally have. I can not develop firefox with plugin on iphone, or use skype with edge.

      To go from the article (which is entirely positive on Apple), and turn it around to be negative is doing a disservice to the original author.
      But maybe some people don't like what author said? For a fanboi: Hurray, we have sdk!. For normal people: well, this sdk is way below our expectations.
      --
      Extreme Programming - Redundant Array of Inexpensive Developers
    24. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by KlomDark · · Score: 3, Informative

      Don't forget C#, which also returns "> 5000" hits. If we could get a real number on that, I'd bet C# has more than Java.

    25. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by dloose · · Score: 5, Informative

      If Apple really wanted to open their platform up to innovation, they'd open it up to Java.
      I'm a full-time Java developer and I find this statement to be absolutely ridiculous. First of all, Apple released a Java-Cocoa bridge with a very early release of OS X (not gonna go out on a limb here -- it was there in 10.2 when I started using Macs). It made Java applications look and feel almost exactly like native Obj-C apps and it was widely shunned by the developer community. It has since been deprecated for exactly that reason. The developers did not want it; they learned Obj-C instead. Does that mean that developers won't want Java on the iPhone as well? Maybe not, but I'm willing to be that most iPhone developers will also be Mac developers (i.e., people that previously shunned Java). Actually, they'll have to be since you need a Mac to develop for the iPhone.

      You seem to portray learning Obj-C as some huge undertaking. If you come from a Java background, learning Obj-C is like learning to play stud poker when you've only played draw poker before. Some of the mechanics are different, but there's a lot of overlap. Anyway, how is Java more conducive to innovation than Obj-C? Because it has better IDEs (which is probably debatable, but I'll cede the point anyway)? What can you do in Java than you can't do in Obj-C? Sure, Java has more frameworks built around it (and frameworks built around those frameworks, with more frameworks layered over them, and frameworks built on top of those, etc.), but Apple has some pretty decent libraries too. I've only dabbled in Cocoa programming, but I find the syntax of Obj-C to be rather nice. I like that there's at least some way to implement delegation. It may be a bit sketchy, but it's better than Java's system, which amounts to "Ahh, fuck it. Let the IDE generate some code. That's good enough."

      You have one thing right: Objective-C will probably never be nearly as popular as Java. Ok, two things: Too much java makes me have to poo-poo. I don't see why that means Apple must support Java on the iPhone though. I'm sure the platform will do just fine without it.

    26. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by skinfitz · · Score: 5, Informative

      Has anybody, anywhere EVER had a positive user experience with a Java app? Yeah actually - Opera Mini is superb.
    27. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Has anybody, anywhere EVER had a positive user experience with a Java app? The Google Maps Mobile implementation for my phone is a J2ME app, and I've had positive experiences with it. The UI is clean and simple, it loads and displays tiles quickly and is fun to use. The screen on my phone is pathetically small, so it's less nice to use than a mapping app on more sensible hardware, but that's not a problem with Java.
      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    28. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by brainnolo · · Score: 2, Informative

      ...I have to say that not only is Java significantly nicer, but the IDE's are dramatically better than XCode...

      I wonder if you actually did both platforms seriously. I work with both on daily basis from some years, yet I find myself cursing every second I spend doing Java (in either NetBeans or Eclipse, I use Eclipse only for the nice j2mepolish integration).

      Java syntax is extremely verbose, and the language is really not as objected oriented as they sell it. Also doing a GUI application makes me often think the advantages of being kicked in the balls instead.

      In Objective-C I usually find myself writing much less code and have great productivity, XCode never gets in my way and Cocoa/Foundation frameworks usually have a much cleaner API (just take a look at collections, in Java you have to pick between different implementations of the same functionalities)

    29. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by godawful · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm not sure where in the history of apple would lead people to believe something would be different this time. Apple has "their way" of doing products, mac os x only on apple computers (despite it working out other hardware), just to give an example. They've never been about "completely open", and this is going to put off a portion of potential customers (the actual number is arguable), but the vast majority won't care, in fact, the vast majority might not even mind, or actually _like_ apple's tight control over things.

      As an iPhone owner myself, I was really excited to see what was possible with the apps people were writing for jailbroken phones, and it was really cool.. some were quite buggy, but there was definitely potential, even in this unsanctioned way. Now there will be an official SDK and even better apps i am really excited. Now sure, these apps may already exist for winmobile or rim or palm even, but that is taking out the very most important factor, the interface and interaction with an iphone. some folks may not like it, or want one, but I've found it to be incredibly useful with myself using for more features on it then i did on any previous phone.

      --
      Live EVERY week... Like it's Shark Week
    30. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by fanningj · · Score: 5, Informative

      They have a 6.5% share of the worldwide market after one full year.... they maybe are not in the lead but they are doing good enough to bumb Motorola's smartphone sales to 4th. No they haven't, there was over one billion phones sold last year, they haven't sold over 65 million phones. Unless you are talking about Smartphones, then you are wrong again. There were 77.3 million Symbian based phones sold last year, without allowing for all the other manufacturers they haven't done 6.5%
    31. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by mr_matticus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, according to your own link, the iPhone *is* the best-selling phone in North America.

      There's more than one Blackberry (four, last time I checked). There's only one iPhone.

      You also seem to be mistaking "truly competitive and flexible" for what you would like companies to compete for. My bet is that the iPhone SDK will do just fine. The posturing here is completely fabricated. Mobile browsers using desktop plugins? Doubtful. Plugins of any kind aren't that common for mobile browsers. VOIP over EDGE? Worthless. Apps that run in the background, ignoring calls to quit by the OS memory manager? There's a stability problem just waiting to happen.

      It's not that you can't multitask, it's that they want to encourage coding practices that don't rely on background services, and applications that save state when they're not active so that the user doesn't lose any data, and that returning to the app is as seamless as possible. With the exception of things like IM and file downloads, you don't need background processes sitting in RAM. Mobile applications should launch quickly and go away when they're told. Windows Mobile developers should take a clue on that, as a user.

    32. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by jinxidoru · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Why must everyone focus on the negatives? I have been playing with the SDK for the past few days and have found it to be wonderful. Sure, there are some limitations, but I can understand that. Apple is stuck with a difficult task. They have to balance their desire to provide an open platform for development with privacy and economic concerns. The strength of the iPhone as well as the iPod is that it is this easy to maintain device. I just plug it into my computer and it works. If they are not careful, then they may hinder said benefit. Think of facebook. We were excited about the third-party applications, especially since they had almost no restrictions. Who among us is now not wishing for restrictions, because of all the crappy annoying applications out there?

      I for one am pleased with what they have offered, especially the 70/30 store. That is unprecedented. It also provides a great mechanism for selling open source, which has been very difficult in the past.

      Lastly, as a side note, one big realization, as I have played with the SDK, is actually how unnecessary it is. I also was among the people who was really frustrated with the iPhone SDK is Web 2.0 garbage last year. Now that the power of the iPhone has been unlocked before my eyes, I'm realizing that the majority of the functionality you want to give in an app is completely suppliable by Web 2.0. As I've thought about what I should write, I keep realizing, "No, there's no point in doing that natively, because it could be done in a Web app." Granted, I am not a game developer.

    33. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by e4g4 · · Score: 4, Informative

      They legally have. I can not ... use skype with edge. Just to make sure you know this - you cannot legally use Skype (or any VoIP service) with Edge on *any* AT&T phone. It is explicitly forbidden in the terms of use.
      --
      The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. - Albert Einstein
    34. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by Poltras · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Last I checked, you didn't have to agree to the SDK license to get your app on other cell phones (that was a Q&A, before you ask). You can still code your own software and distribute it outside of the iTunes store. The contract is binding to the iTunes App Store. Enough with FUD. It is their distribution model. Comply or work something else.

    35. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by Com2Kid · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Quite true, WM has a wide variety of browsers available for it, Skype works just fine, and I have even seen people use their phone as a WiFi access point connected to the net using EVDO or UTMS.

    36. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 2, Funny

      You must be new here (grin).

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    37. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by wampus · · Score: 2, Informative

      T-Mobile's firmware on Nokia S40 phones, at least, disables internet access for 3rd party apps.

    38. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by Hal_Porter · · Score: 5, Funny

      I like Vista and I voted for George W Bush twice. He is great man. Like Hitler.

      Hal Porter

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    39. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 3, Informative
      A 6.5% share of what? The cellphone market? In the world? In North America? Bullshit.

      Smartphone market? I still find that hard to believe - there are several countries where Blackberry is, but iPhone is not.

      Here's a big hint. Sales does not equate to "size of market". If in the final quarter of 2007, the iPhone sold 27% of the smartphones sold, that does not mean every one in four smartphones is an iPhone (I'm also looking at you for a basic misunderstanding of this, Mr Roughly Drafted). As the Wikipedians would say, "[citation needed]".

    40. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by MrMacman2u · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Is everyone on this forsaken dirt ball retarded?

      Even my best friend (a hardcore Linux user) is so upset about these "restrictions" that he's practically craping broken glass about the whole SDK!

      What the HELL is WRONG with you people?!!?

      I challenge ANY ONE OF YOU to explain, in clear and reasonable terms, WHY Apple imposing some restriction on the type and scope of applications that can be developed for the iPhone is a bad thing?!

      I mean HONESTLY, do you people WANT the same virus/spy/mal/adware ORGY that is the disaster we jokingly call Windows?!!!!???

      If Apple DIDN'T impose SOME restrictions such as limiting interpreters which can be used in malicious ways and are impossible to control, providing quality control to filter out the mountains of buggy crash inducing CRAP that people will spew out, etc.... and then that is EXACTLY what all the money grubbing scum suckers will DO. They WOULD make viruses, they WOULD crash you iPhone so much you're swear it was NASCAR on Ice, they WOULD find a way to hijack your phone and they WOULD make your life with an iPhone a living HELL...

      Surprise people, the iPhone is NOT a hacker platform! It's a CONSUMER platform and consumers want their devices to work. Every. Single. Time. No exceptions!

      I, personally, think it's a bloody BRILLIANT idea and a wonderful way to not only distribute apps but also provide marketing and availability that so many great apps never get and remain in obscurity as well as ensure that consumers get quality programs that don't bork their new $400-$500 toy!

      Hell, a GREAT analogy is to the console video game industry! In fact Apple's model is practically a photocopy of how Nintendo handles things except the Big N doesn't allow any Lee, Dick and Harry to program for the Wii!

      Yet no one is getting their butt hairs in a knot about Sony or Nintendo or Microsofts gaming division about how THEY handle their software!

      As for the little niggly stuff such as:

      "The SDK only runs on a Mac!" - Yes, that sucks and i don't like it any more than you do, but tough noogies. It's APPLE'S development platform, they didn't even have to MAKE it. in fact they said they WERE NOT GOING TO when the iPhone was launched.... So in my mind, we ALREADY got a bonus because it EXISTS. So, Mac only? Yeah that sucks.

      "They're restricting what us 'hackerz' can publish!" - To damn bad for you. Not only are you 1% of (exceptionally whiny) iPhone users BUT, (gasp!) the iPhone is not an open platform!!!

      Even with the new SDk, it is STILL not an open playground for you to do what you want, just like the Wii or the Xbox 360 or the PS3. Apple has placed REASONABLE restrictions on what you can do, JUST LIKE WITH THE WII, THE PS3 AND THE XBOX 360! Deal with it.

      Personally, the only thing I am wondering is if you can compile and install (via "debug" mode, etc...) your own personal application creations on your own iPhone... not to distribute, but for PERSONAL SINGLE USE on YOUR phone.... that would definitely placate the "I'll do whatever the hell I want with MY hardware" people...

      Either way, as I wrap up here, If you don't like the rules Apple has set on the playground then LEAVE. The door is right there, it's open and unlocked. Go buy a Blackberry or a Palm or a Windows mobile device and develop for them. I'm not stopping you, neither is Apple.

      I HONESTLY don't mind someone (Apple) keeping a casual and comparatively lax eye on the "children" when they are turned out to play. There is no law that says you should have the right to throw sand in everyone's face just because they want to use a copy of the toy you made. not every program is going to be made to better the iPhone people, there are a LOT of scum suckers out there.

      Apple has done a good thing to let everyone play nice and yet still have some degree of freedom, or would you prefer have millions of developers writing applications to PWN your iPhone and turn it into a battleground of slow, crashing and malware threats...

      --
      This signature is lame.
    41. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by alan_dershowitz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Apple DOESN'T have to support Java on the iPhone. Sun didn't ask for Apple to maintain a Java Cocoa bridge on the iPhone, they wanted to port Java and maintain it. But they had to back off because of Apple's restrictive licensing. So with regards to developer preference, had Java been ported that would have been Sun's problem so why would Apple even care? I'm also a full time Java developer and I have an Intel Mac, and I don't give two shits about Objective-C, I just think it would be cool to take my Java cellphone app and run it on the iPhone.

    42. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by demachina · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ...and Apple doesn't care one little bit about you because 99.99% of their market is people who are completely happy with iTunes and iPhone like they are.

      Something slashdotters need to get a grip on is you are a tiny, extremely hard to please, demographic. Most companies recognize it will cost them a lot in one form or another to satisfy you, and the revenue they get off you wont make up for it. The only impact you have in this particular arena is Apple apparently wants geeks to develop apps for their phone. But there are probably going to be about a million geeks doing that even with the restrictions in their terms of service.

      I like Linux and the myriad options it gives personally, but Apple wants to maintain a coherent and stable software ecosystem for their phone. They really don't need to have 5 different browsers, and a bazillion apps designed for geeks instead of polished standards conforming apps that fit in to their phone experience. The iPhone works pretty well the way it is now, if they can grow their software ecosystem some they will be happy. I'm pretty sure they don't want to turn it in to a confusing train wreck, kind of like the Linux desktop with 10 different window managers, a half dozen GUI toolkits, 20 different browsers, some awesome apps and a lot of brain dead broken ones, none of which adhere to the same set of UI guidelines.

      --
      @de_machina
    43. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by Longstaff · · Score: 3, Interesting

      (oh wait, it's the *only* *nix based phone on the market - that actually works)

      My Linux-based Motorola e680 from 2003 would beg to differ. It worked wonderfully, thank you. Full touch screen, minimal buttons (keypad was in the touch screen), mp3 audio, mp4 video playback (this all sound familiar?)....oh yeah and a (vga :-/) camera, video capture, fm tuner and an SD card slot...

    44. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by AnObfuscator · · Score: 3, Informative

      Gawd, nobody wants frigging Java anywhere near anything they have to actually use, much less *pay* to use. Has anybody, anywhere EVER had a positive user experience with a Java app?

      hate to break this to you, but much of the software you run on your typical cellphone is written in Java. I have quite a few positive java apps on my blackberry

      not to mention, if you use ebay, you're using a Java-based web app. I hear it's a pretty decent piece of software.

      oh, and I have a daily (mostly) positive experience with Eclipse.

      The idea that "java apps are obvious due to their slowness and crappiness" is an old, tired adage. It's just false. You might as well say, "C++ apps are obvious due to their memory leaks". Just because you've run some crappy Java code doesn't mean the language itself and all code written in it is crap. It brings you more benefits than you know.

      Disclaimer: I do a lot of J2EE coding. I also hate Java, but for more technical reasons. ;-)

      --
      multifariam.net -- yet another nerd blog
    45. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by freakyfreak2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Microsoft makes mobile development pretty damn easy. Though to use Visual studio you have to pony up for Professional (which many people got free at the last install fest). you can still do it the manual way by downloading the WM SDK's, the emulators and the .NET CF SDKs. Most of the development could be done in something like SharpDevelop. Just because it's .NET doesn't mean it's stuck to windows mobile either. Mono has been known to run on some symbian phones and openmoko. Probably no luck on Android since Google has that tightly packed with Java

    46. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by norkakn · · Score: 3, Informative

      Apple's documentation is wonderful..... if you already know Objective-C. It is pretty bad otherwise. Okay, It's really horrible otherwise, and not that great if you do.

      I tend to use http://www.cocoadev.com/ more than anything else. You really should do the basic Apple Currency Converter tutorial first though, as it walks you through the interface. In general, trust the C that you know, but throw out the C++. Things tend to be done with a different approach, so if you can find other code that does a similar thing, the C part of your brain will understand it, but the C++ part will get angry. Eventually, I realized that the C++ part of my brain was also extremely masochistic, so it became easier to ignore it.

      Did that help at all? More than anything else, just jump right in. Build and test often, and have fun with it.

    47. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by Tom · · Score: 4, Funny

      , and easy to program
      (to anyone who knows objective C) The horror! You will have to learn a programming language in order to write a program! What's the world come to? :-)
      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    48. Re:Good way to turn a positive thing negative by Tom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Speaking as someone who knows all three worlds, I'll take "some clever industrial design" over the buggy hell that is windos or the ramshackle self-help set that is Linux any day. Really sorry to say that, just a few years ago I was as convinced a Linux fellow as they come.

      And hey, it's not as if MS could write an OS that supports all those third party hardware. Remember that the drivers ususally come from the manufacturers, and guess what MS blames all the crashes on? Answer c), 3rd party drivers, wins.

      XP's still a crashing piece of shit. Better than the predecessors, which were utter and total crappy pieces of crashing shit.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  2. What did you expect? by bit+trollent · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is Apple we're dealing with here. They won't even let you build your own computer even though OS X runs on x86.

    For all the crap Microsoft gets for its tactics, it should be clear from actions like this that Apple is the real villain.

    1. Re:What did you expect? by Peter+Cooper · · Score: 4, Funny

      The EULA for OS X says:

      This License allows you to install and use one copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time.

      It's quite easy to label a home-built computer with an Apple sticker.

    2. Re:What did you expect? by Fneb · · Score: 2

      Selling their own computers is their core business, though. Allowing OS X to be installed on any x86 computer would undermine that. However, allowing Firefox onto the iPhone or iPod Touch doesn't undermine their business at all. Argubly VOIP would since you could take out a cheaper contract as they all have unlimited data, though.

    3. Re:What did you expect? by Sparks23 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      While being able to build a custom OSX86 box would be nice, I actually can understand part of why Apple does this.

      Mac OS X has a very, very small number of drivers. Arguably, this is a good thing. By tightly controlling the hardware, Apple can really go over the driver code with a fine-toothed comb and make sure it's solid and will not take the OS down.

      Microsoft doesn't have this option... a good portion of the reason Windows crashes is not Microsoft's own fault, but some third-party driver, half the time from Korea. Microsoft can try to examine and certify drivers, but even they just don't have the resources to manage the whole tide, especially testing things in combination. Add to that crappy generic clone video and audio cards, where the problem could even be in the HARDWARE...

      While controlling the hardware tightly comes across as unfriendly, this also allows Apple to keep Mac OS X pretty solid and stable. I grant you that's definitely not their only reasoning there -- far from it -- but is the one that I actually find somewhat valid.

      --
      --Rachel
  3. Vote with your money by hypergreatthing · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And don't buy it. It's that simple.

    It's not like comcast which is a monopoly in certain areas. There are hundreds of other cell phones to buy. Whoever wrote the summary is an idiot.

    1. Re:Vote with your money by hypergreatthing · · Score: 2, Informative

      Almost all phones have a web browser, all the new cell phones can play mp3s. There are phones made to encorporate music as their main focus.

      What? You actually buy music off itunes? I'd rather buy music from amazon's drm free site. Stupid icrap users get what stupid icrap users deserve.

    2. Re:Vote with your money by mlk · · Score: 3, Insightful

      My windows mobile device?
      I'm sure any other smart phone could do it as well.

      --
      Wow, I should not post when knackered.
    3. Re:Vote with your money by MightyYar · · Score: 2, Informative

      My wife's Palm plays MP3 and Video, has built-in Wifi and bluetooth, and has (gasp!) a removable memory card currently populated with a $40 4GB card. It's not as slick or fun as an iPod, but it does everything that the iPod touch does, and the inverse is not true.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    4. Re:Vote with your money by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Informative

      My 3-year-old phone has a web browser (Opera) which works very nicely considering the tiny screen and it includes a music player that plays MP3 and AAC files (and, I think, a few other formats). I put a 1GB flash card in it stores a couple of albums, in AAC format, purchased from the iTunes store. It's not as capable as the iPhone, but if you bought one now it would cost 5-10% of the cost of an iPhone.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  4. What's the issue here? by Oxy+the+moron · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Look, I know the iPhone is all "snazzy" and "cool" and "trendy," but I think it's been known for a while that Apple would do this, yes?

    If you're looking for a platform with more open SDK access, just don't write for the iPhone. Go for a mobile device with a Linux-based OS, or even Windows Mobile. That gives you a lot more flexibility in terms of writing your own software (I write C# on a Moto Q, myself) and you usually end up paying less, too.

    Apple has a choice as to whether or not they open up their hardware just as you had the choice of buying the phone in the first place.

    --

    Proudly supporting the Libertarian Party.

  5. Why? by TubeSteak · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Could Apple face government regulators?" If possible regulation is the result, Apple would be better off saying "fuck it, opening up was a mistake, we are not going to do it, sorry."

    What other cell phone company might be facing government regulators over their extremely locked down software choices?

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
    1. Re:Why? by Oxy+the+moron · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I was thinking this exact same thing. The Motorola Q has some really great features, and it turns out a lot of them are masked or outright disabled (Java support) if you use Verizon as your carrier versus a different carrier. If anything, Apple is being more generous than the likes of some cell phone companies.

      --

      Proudly supporting the Libertarian Party.

  6. It's their party by Badbone · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How is this an issue for regulators? If Apple if determined to make their product not work, its not the regulators job to change their mind. If Apple decides they want no Opera and no Java and nothing else, its their decision. Let them make it and face the consequences.

    --
    It can be go tiem now plees?
    1. Re:It's their party by mother_reincarnated · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree.

      I think apple is being stupid and short-sighted to a degree that is only surpassed by the anonymous posters musings about possible regulation.

      Jobs must not understand the millions of Blackberry and WM smartphones that would happily be tossed in the garbage...

  7. Re:It is their phone by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's not their phone. It's MY phone, bought and paid for. (Assuming I had one, of course. :P) As a consumer, it's not up to Apple to decide what programs I can and can't run. Keeping software from the app store is one thing. Restricting use of the cellular network is also understandable. (Why would you want to run Skype over GSM/EDGE rather than WiFi anyway?) But keeping users from running Java or an alternate browser by way of licensing? Sorry, that's not going to fly.

    My device, my decision. Apple should control only their store, not license away the competition.

  8. Could Apple Face Regulators... by neonmonk · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Could Apple face regulators for restricting third party development on THEIR SOFTWARE which is on THEIR HARDWARE which does not in any sense of the word have a monopoly.

    Somehow.. I doubt it.

    People seem to forget that Apple don't need to make it easy for people to develop for the iPhone. They don't have to assist at all. At. All.

    Whilst I may disagree with their tactics, I'm certainly not going to tell them how to run their business. And whilst the Microsoft comparisons will be coming out of the woodwork like hungry mutant termites, it's simply not the same. Windows & Office locks people into a platform by being an established monopoly, it also uses this established monopoly to lock people into their other products. What this is, is simply Apple giving people a piece of cake and not letting them eat it. Sure it sucks, but you know what - don't like it; don't develop for it. Simple.

    1. Re:Could Apple Face Regulators... by Millennium · · Score: 2

      :Could Apple face regulators for restricting third party development on THEIR SOFTWARE which is on THEIR HARDWARE which does not in any sense of the word have a monopoly.

      By the time someone would be installing applications on an iPhone, it is not "Apple's hardware" anymore. That ended when the buyer paid for it. My iPhone is my property, and I will install whatever I please on it. If Apple tries to stop me, I will do my utmost to stop their intrusion onto my property by any means necessary. This is a simple case of property rights.

    2. Re:Could Apple Face Regulators... by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      People seem to forget that Apple don't need to make it easy for people to develop for the iPhone. They don't have to assist at all. At. All. It's not just a matter of "making it easy". They have made it legally impossible for you to run Java, alternative browsers, and other applications on a product that you shelled out serious cash for.

      And whilst the Microsoft comparisons will be coming out of the woodwork like hungry mutant termites, it's simply not the same. No, it's not. It's worse. This is akin to Microsoft releasing a version of Windows, let's call it Windows Fist-up-your-ass edition, and then saying "Our EULA states you cannot install Firfox, Opera, or Java," while, at the same time, adding rules to the Win32 API that block out these applications.

      If Microsoft did this, you'd be screaming bloody murder.

      Because Apple's doing this, it's okay.

      Sorry, no dice.

      I said this is what would happen. Did anyone listen? No.

  9. Er wha? by brunes69 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Could Apple face government regulators?

    For what reason? Last I heard Apple did not have a monopoly on cell phones, or even on smart phones. The only thing they seem to have a monopoly on is fanboys.

    Don't like the iPhone's rules, don't buy the phone. There are a multitude of alternatives. The FCC does not regulate what US providers can and can not restrict on their cell phone networks currently in any way.

  10. Complicated Issue by keirre23hu · · Score: 3, Insightful

    On one hand, this reeks of the same type of behaviour microsoft have engaged in for the past two decades, and was rightfully sued over and over and over again about. At the same time, how is Apple's behaviour different from retarded mess that Verizon puts on its cellular phones to lock out developers and cripple the functionality. Noone goes after the cellular carriers and their enablers (handset makers). Also, where is the Zune SDK (not that Zune == IPod Touch/IPhone, but still)?

    1. Re:Complicated Issue by Kelbear · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The action is exactly the same.

      However, the conditions are not. Apple doesn't have a monopoly in the phone or smart phone market. Pretty much every phone on the market is closed in some form. The iphone in providing an sdk is considerably more open than it's competition.

      I have never owned an Apple product.

      If the demand for these apps is strong enough and the business model is profitable enough, perhaps a competing phone would like to offer what Apple isn't. (Android? It'd sure be nice, it'd cause me to buy my first phone.)

    2. Re:Complicated Issue by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The iphone in providing an sdk is considerably more open than it's competition.

        The symbian SDK is free. You can get a developer certificate for free (Apple charges $100/year), you can distribute in any manner you choose (Apple insist on using itunes), you can use background apps, you can do VOIP over 3G/Edge....

      So in what way is the iphone 'considerably more open'.

    3. Re:Complicated Issue by hitmark · · Score: 4, Insightful

      symbian, "european". iphone, "american"...

      i keep finding myself thinking that the iphone is a creation of the US mobile market.

      in europe on the other hand its just another "smartphone".

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    4. Re:Complicated Issue by trawg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, from my perspective - I have no idea how to put applications on my new (~6 months) symbian phone. When I got it I plugged it into my PC via the included USB cable (first time I've ever plugged a phone into my PC), and dicked around with the apps, but quickly got bored of all the different and complicated things.

      However with an iPhone I know that when the new update is released, I'll just be able to do everything through iTunes.

      I realise this isn't what you mean by 'more open', but to most users it WILL be more open, because everything is going to be heaps more accessible than any other platform - it'll have a unified, simple access system to expanding and improving your phone.

      Regular users won't give a shit that you can't do any of the stuff in this thread (run java, voip, develop on windows, etc) - they'll just be amazed they can download a solitaire game for free, or a new calendar application for $5, or something.

  11. Lack of Java (J2MEE) a Big Deal by Kagato · · Score: 3, Informative

    Most cell phone applications are written in J2ME. The lack of J2ME support means existing applications already on AT&T's approved app deck would need extensive porting. The only exception is Verizon which has their own language (called BREW), which has less apps than most other companies because of it. Even the Black Berry supports J2ME.

    1. Re:Lack of Java (J2MEE) a Big Deal by nine-times · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not a big deal unless Apple really wants all of that software ported over to iPhone very quickly without the developers putting in additional work. And why would they want that?

      Apple wants people to use their SDK so everything is using power efficiently, interacting with the OS properly, and has an interface that fits with OSX and other iPhone apps. They're not going to take a shoddy port of a crappy program written for another cell phone and put that up on their store anyway, so why would they bother making their SDK support it?

  12. Re:It is their phone by tkrotchko · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Why can't Apple dictate what gets put on their device?"

    It's "their" device right until I pay for it. Then it's "my" device.

    Let me turn the question around. Why can't I dictate why software gets loaded on "my" device?

    --
    You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
  13. Regulators? No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The iPhone is a niche product that one must go out of their way to pay a premium for. The people who buy it are buying it because they want what is being offered and they know what they are getting. The majority of Apple customers are going to use iChat, not GAIM, Safari, not Firefox, iWorks or MS Office (but only if they really must), not OpenOffice, etc.

    This is a far cry from Microsoft forcing hardware manufacturers to install Windows on EVERYTHING or NOTHING, then using that penetration to foist IE, WMP, etc.

    Apple users made a conscious decision for the whole kaboodle. Slashdot readers are not the norm for anything but obsessive Linux users. Say whatever it is that you want, but only Slashdot readers are going to be upset about this. The majority of iPhone purchasers and Apple users in general will hardly notice, if they even know what an SDK is.

  14. and no python, perl, ruby... by mzs · · Score: 4, Informative

    borne shell, etc:

    "no interpreted code may be downloaded and used in an Application except for code that is interpreted and run by Apple's Published APIs and built-in interpreter(s)."

  15. It is their software by T-Bone-T · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Why can't I dictate why software gets loaded on "my" device?"

    That is the question I should have asked. When you buy the phone, you own the physical hardware, but only a license to use the software. Why can't Apple dictate how their software is used? They aren't Microsoft with a 90% market share, they are in a market with massive competition.

  16. Ok ok ok just stop... by InfraredAD · · Score: 4, Insightful

    1) "Voice over IP apps like Skype that attempt to use the cellular data connection will be blocked." Yeah they're going to be blocked over the cellular network, not over WiFi, this is NOT NEWS. 2) The article that the "are forbidden" link goes to talks about the possible lack of Photoshop (among other apps) on the iPhone. Photoshop, come on. There is no way I'm going to take an article seriously that talks about the lack of Photoshop ON A PHONE. If you wanna use Photoshop get your own lappy 486 or Desktop. 3) Sun Java VM - Where the heck is the back peddling? This whole thing was announced less than a week ago, the article even states "if our crack engineers are able to build it" let alone where they mention the licensing in less than one full sentence... Get real. This is a Doom n' Gloom / FUD post.

  17. My Main Problem with the SDK is... by slaingod · · Score: 2, Interesting

    that SDK says your app can't run in the background. I would imagine (not being an iPhone owner but having some common sense) that the iPhone will continue to play music if you are using say the Calendar functionality. If I am not able to create a media player that allows me to provide that same level of functionality, whether it is for some unsupported format not found in iTunes, or if I want to use another media player on my iPhone to download songs from Napster, then I think Apple will be opening itself up to a world of trouble, monopoly-wise. That is exactly how M$ got in trouble, was leveraging their OS to keep out competition. You can't have it both ways... you either allow 3rd party apps or you don't. If a particular carrier wants to prevent some type of network usage/traffic, I can see the carrier doing that, just like you ISP doesn't have to provide you with Newsgroups...but your OS had damn well better not try and block Newsgroups just because it has some forum software it wants to push.

    --
    http://blog.slaingod.com
  18. here's one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I find that the Azureus client for BitTorrent, while slow to launch, does a fine job of helping me pirate video, audio and software. A victory for Java!

    1. Re:here's one by Hal_Porter · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Why not use uTorrent?

      It's very low resource usage - I had an very old ultraportable notebook running XP with 384MB of Ram and a slow disk, but Opera and uTorrent both ran very well.

      It actually works on ubuntu quite well too -

      http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=191161

      I've got a question: If you use uTorrent on Linux, will it be as fast as it is on windows? I mean, which is better ,to use Azureus or uTorrent under wine? Personally I'd prefer Torrent over Azureus. Both feature filled, but Torrent seems less of a burden on my system. Torrent seems to stay under 10% CPU usage, which is fine with me. Pretty much a damning indictment of Java that wine+a small win32 application+a completely different OS actually runs better than a Java one.

      Now I'm sure people will say there are bloated Win32 apps and efficient Java ones and I can think of some examples. But on average Java applications tend to be absurdly resource intensive.
      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    2. Re:here's one by TheoMurpse · · Score: 2, Insightful

      uTorrent? You mean the closed source program now owned by Bittorrent, Inc., the company that has partnerships with Fox, MTV, Paramount, WB, and Comedy Central?

      Sure, you keep trusting that code to not be reporting what you're downloading to anyone in Big Media.

    3. Re:here's one by Hal_Porter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm not downloading anything illegal.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    4. Re:here's one by TheoMurpse · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So you subscribe to the belief that if you've got nothing to hide, who cares? I've got nothing to hide, either, but I'm still aware of moneyed interests spying on what I'm actually doing.

      Beyond that, there are plenty of fair use things you could be downloading that could still get you sued. Whether you won or lost, the fight itself could ruin you financially.

  19. Re:It is their phone by AKAImBatman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They just won't support you doing it through their framework.

    There's a difference between not providing support and using legal means to restrict the usage. Apple isn't just not supporting the SDK (which would be fine), they're saying that you LEGALLY cannot do this with your phone and the SDK.
  20. Biggest problem in my eyes... by DarkDust · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I've taken a look at the documentation, and as always it's excellent. Lot's of examples and stuff, so the SDK itself seems to be really good. And I personally think that their distribution system is a good idea (they NEED control for various reasons). I also have no problem with the fact that they don't allow voice services over the cellular network, only via WLAN (they have to, the providers would kick Apple in the nuts if they'd allow that).

    But the limitation that instantly kills a ton of useful potential apps is the fact that you can't run an app in the background. If you switch away from your app (say, accept a phone call), your application quits. Bye bye instant messaging and every other application that needs to run for a long time/wait for events.

  21. Re:It is their phone by AKAImBatman · · Score: 2, Informative

    Apple is only exerting control over their store. You can use the SDK to install non-approved apps to your iPhone.


    Not according to TFA:

    The key section of the SDK says that "no interpreted code may be downloaded and used in an Application except for code that is interpreted and run by Apple's Published APIs and built-in interpreter(s)." Even worse is the section just after that which specifically says no to plugin architectures: "An Application may not itself install or launch other executable code by any means, including without limitation through the use of a plugin architecture, calling other frameworks, other APIs or otherwise."

    (Emphasis mine)
  22. It's funny... by Wheatin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Game development is a hobby of mine. I was considering either doing some stuff in Microsoft's XNA Studio for the XBox or the IPhone SDK. It's funny that I'll be using a Microsoft product because it's more open.

    1. Re:It's funny... by Spy+Hunter · · Score: 4, Informative
      How did your comment get modded up to +5 when it is so obviously wrong? Microsoft's XNA SDK for XBox 360 is *just* as restrictive as the iPhone SDK, if not more so. Perhaps you are confused because XNA can be used for unrestricted development of Windows games. Well, Apple allows unrestricted development of Mac games too; the iPhone SDK has nothing to do with that. The only valid comparison is between XNA's XBox 360 development capability vs. the iPhone SDK.
      • iPhone: You can run native code. XBox: no native code; all code runs in the .NET Framework VM sandbox.
      • iPhone: $99 one-time fee. XBox: $99 yearly subscription + $50 yearly subscription for XBox Live Gold
      • iPhone: free version with emulator for testing. XBox: free version but no way to test for XBox compatibility.
      • iPhone: iTunes is the exclusive distribution channel for iPhone programs. XBox: XBox Live the is exclusive distribution channel for XBox games.
      Since neither Apple or Microsoft can control what you do with the SDK on your own hardware, the following restrictions only apply to applications distributed through iTunes or XBox Live.
      • iPhone: programs of any type will be distributed. XBox: programs must be games for distribution on Live.
      • iPhone: distribution on iTunes store will be available to any developer. XBox: distribution on XBox Live restricted to a select few who win periodic voting contests.
      • iPhone: programs can use WiFi for any purpose; cellular network with restrictions. XBox: Network access only for XBox Live and local LAN multiplayer. Non-LAN play must enforce requirement of XBox Live Gold subscription.
      • iPhone: programs distributed through iTunes may not execute downloaded code or plugins. XBox: Microsoft would never approve a game for distribution on Live that executed downloaded code or could download plugins.
      • iPhone: Free programs distributed for free. XNA: not announced. Likely to limit or prohibit free games.
      • iPhone: Commercial distribution is 30% of gross revenue, no other fees. XNA: not announced. Likely to be higher than 30% based on rumors of XBLA royalty rates.
      As you can see, XBox development is *just* as restricted as iPhone development; more so, in fact.
      --
      main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
  23. Apple not subject to antitrust regulation. by Jaywalk · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Critics are already comparing Apple's methods to Comcast's anti-net neutrality filtering, and Microsoft's Netscape-killing antitrust tactics. Could Apple face government regulators?
    Now that's just silly. In order to be subject to the antimonopoly laws, you need to have a monopoly in the relevant market. Just when did Apple corner the market on smart phones? Despite iPhone's current sales surge, Blackberry still has more phones out there than Apple. Add it Palm's Treo and the assortment of phones from companies like Nokia, and iPhone is practically a bit player.

    Antitrust laws are a last resort for when the market can't correct itself. If Apple keeps up with this crap they risk the more dire consequence of consumers simply abandoning their platform. Can you say, Apple Lisa?
    --
    ===== Murphy's Law is recursive. =====
  24. Honestly though... by Darundal · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...who didn't expect this? Honestly, this is completely in line with how they have been acting with the iPhone/iPod Touch product lines. Commence Jailbreaking in 5, 4...

  25. Re:It is their phone by abaddononion · · Score: 3, Interesting

    You realize, of course, that this very post is a RESOUNDING defense of Microsoft and all of their business practices, right?

    This sword cuts both ways. What's wrong (or right, in your case) for one is wrong or right for the other. And according to reason litigation against M$, it would seem that those practices arent "fine and dandy" at all, and they ARE being forced to support competitor software. The same rules could apply down to Apple here.

  26. Re:It is their phone by Richard_at_work · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The rules change when you have a monopoly position in a market - there are many things one business can do while another can't do. It doesn't mean the action itself is inherently right or wrong.

  27. Regulations? Market pressure by davidwr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Could Apple face government regulators? Could Apple face customer blacklash?
    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  28. Re:It is their phone by Richard_at_work · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So don't use their SDK - you haven't got an entitlement to use it, after all.

  29. No FTC by Ungulate · · Score: 2, Informative

    Microsoft got in trouble for leveraging their OS monopoly to squash Netscape, and Apple has no such monopoly to leverage. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with limiting what applications can run on your device, nor is there anything wrong with integrating a browser, but there are some behaviors that monopolies cannot engage in that a smaller company can.

    You bought an Apple device, you couldn't have been expecting open-ness.

  30. Predictions? by erroneus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Will Apple face government regulation?

    I seriously doubt it. The iPhone has not given anything and then taken it away. Nor have they made any promises they didn't keep. Further, the level of ubiquity of the iPhone platform is not high enough to be on any government regulatory radar. (Blackberry *might* be just to illustrate a point of reference.)

    As to whether or not a "next version iPhone" will grant developers and users the freedom and flexibility they crave? I find it to be HIGHLY unlikely. Apple has been very consistent in stating their attitude about who controls their products. Apple does -- at ALL times -- especially after purchase. They're pretty good at blurring the lines of who actually owns the products they sell.

  31. Re:No Skype makes sense, No GPLv3 is annoying... by Durzel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's only "AMAZINGLY flexible and unrestricted" if you've been living in a cave.

    Windows Mobile and Symbian have far more unrestrictive terms of use, in fact - simply being able to write an app in the relevant programming language is the only barrier to entry. There's no third-party enforcing distribution control, no ridiculous $99 sign-up fee - yet, ironically, some people justify the licence fee as "getting rid of the chaff". Unbelievable.

    I try to credit people with intelligent reasoning for the most part but it's tough to argue in favour of people who advocate draconian control the likes of which Apple is putting into effect with its SDK, when if it was Microsoft or some other less-favoured darling at the helm there would - justifiably - be outcry.

    Disclaimer: I own a Macbook Pro and an iPod.

  32. App store vs SDK limitation by tylersoze · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm guessing some of these limitations will or can only be enforced by not allowing these applications on the iTunes app store. However if you pony up the $99 to get a developer certificate presumably you'll be able to compile and run whatever the heck you want on your own iPhone subject to SDK limitations.

  33. troll bait by reversible+physicist · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why is it that 99% of the developer reaction I've seen has been enthusiastically positive, and yet the spin here is so negative? Apple has dramatically exceeded people's expectations and are even allowing VOIP applications that use WiFi. When the competitive landscape in the cellphone world changes and the carriers just become dumb pipes, Apple will be the first to drop stupid restrictions, since their interests will be completely aligned with users: they make their money on hardware, not software. And why does every discussion like this devolve into AAPL=MSFT? Apple are winning here because they have good products, not because they are kneecapping their competitors to try to maintain a monopoly for mediocre products.

    1. Re:troll bait by peragrin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      because on the surface the SDK and new software is awesome. It is when people started reading the legal fine print and found out if you develop apps for the iPhone apple owns your soul and IP.

      Okay a slight stretch there but that is basically the point. I can make firefox for the iPhone but legally I can't install it. It isn't for technical(except for the skype over edge which is just a bad idea) reasons just legal.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    2. Re:troll bait by bnenning · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Why is it that 99% of the developer reaction I've seen has been enthusiastically positive, and yet the spin here is so negative?

      For established Mac developers it's a great deal. Apple handles the distribution and payment processing, and they don't have to worry about competing with open source weenies. But hobbyists get shut out (apparently even if you try to pay Apple for a certificate, there's no guarantee they'll give you one), and end users get nickeled and dimed for apps that would have free equivalents in a competitive market.

      When the competitive landscape in the cellphone world changes and the carriers just become dumb pipes, Apple will be the first to drop stupid restrictions

      That would be nice, although I'm skeptical since lots of other AT&T phones don't have these kinds of restrictions.

      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
    3. Re:troll bait by metamatic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe you've been reading mostly responses from fanboys?

      I'm a Mac owner (three Macs in the house), and I've developed Mac software. I'm totally underwhelmed by the iPhone. It's a very pretty UI on top of a phone that lacks functionality that was standard in the 90s. The SDK would allow those defects to be fixed, but Apple is intentionally crippling the phone by limiting what third parties can do. (No XMPP client, for example, which I consider an absolute must-have feature on any phone I buy.)

      --
      GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
    4. Re:troll bait by e4g4 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      lots of other AT&T phones don't have these kinds of restrictions The phones themselves may not have built in restrictions, but AT&T's terms of use sure as hell do. Any heavy bandwidth usage over edge can subject you to cancellation of service - edge is even explicitly restricted to "(i) Internet browsing; (ii) email; and (iii) corporate Intranet access."
      --
      The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. - Albert Einstein
    5. Re:troll bait by timster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your comment is a great example of the disconnect between some Slashdotters and real users about the iPhone. Your example must-have feature is an obscure technology that a small minority of people would ever use. You toss the iPhone a "very pretty UI" line, but how many of your "phones designed by checklist" have a 320x480 screen and a big enough battery to power it for hours? The N95, while much-praised by irrational Apple-haters*, is only 240x320. Doesn't everything we know about computing tell us that large, quality displays are critical for real-world end-user productivity? And you'd toss all that away with "very pretty but doesn't have XMPP/MMS/PEBKAC protocols that I, for one, use daily"? Why was Nokia wasting time on MMS so people could send each other pictures of themselves when they should have been figuring out how to put a decent screen on a device and have it still fit in your pocket?

      Now here we are, months away from the release of apps, and already people are already turning their guesses about how Apple will interpret the SDK ToS into news. But all we really have are guesses. Your assertion that Apple will block development of an XMPP client is completely unfounded; this speculation is based on a paragraph in the Human Interface Guidelines (of all things) that is really talking about making the application quitting/restarting transparent to the user. Apple allowed AOL to demo an AIM client, so the conspiracy theories about AT&T wanting more SMS revenue turned out to be completely unfounded; there will be IM on the iPhone as soon as developers release clients. Even the notion that Apple will "block Firefox" is based on the fact that Firefox includes a plugin architecture (which could be disabled) and a JavaScript interpreter (which may or may not be included in Apple's definition of an "interpreted language").

      * - normally it wouldn't be polite to imply that someone is irrational simply because they like or don't like a certain product, but it's become part of the way we discuss Apple stories on Slashdot, apparently.

      --
      I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
    6. Re:troll bait by fangorious · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "I can make firefox for the iPhone but legally I can't install it"

      legally you can install it because you own the device. Apple just isn't providing you the means to distribute it via the SDK and App Store, and they aren't required to.

    7. Re:troll bait by Eunuchswear · · Score: 2, Informative

      but how many of your "phones designed by checklist" have a 320x480 screen
      Mine has 800x352. Does that count?
      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    8. Re:troll bait by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Re the Nokia N-series. Nokia had "figured out how to put a decent screen on a device" way back in 2005 - The N90 had two screens, an exterior 128x128 and an interior main screen of 352x416 resolution. That would seem to imply the lower resolution screen of the N95 was a deliberate choice. It's DPI that matters, really, more so than absolute pixel count.

      It's a little amusing that you throw out "wasting time on MMS" when I would view MMS as one of the least important apps on my N95 (and yes, I've used an iPhone, too). If you've not seen the latest version of Nokia Maps on an N95, you would be impressed. I agree with your assertion that XMPP is on the "must have" list of a fraction of a percent of users. But to suggest that there's something "irrational" about not being all gooey inside about the iPhone when my phone is smaller, is 3.5G, has a 5MP camera, has 8GB of internal storage, Bluetooth 2, Exchange Push email, GPS, etc. But I'll stop there, lest I be branded as an irrational Apple hater.

    9. Re:troll bait by ink · · Score: 2, Interesting
      iPhoto comes with new Macs. It has never come with OSX. We have three macs here at home, and this has always been the case.

      Back on topic, though, I'm another unimpressed Apple user as far as the iPhone SDK is concerned. I really wanted to pick up an iPhone last summer, but I grabbed a cheap Sony w580i instead because I wanted to wait and see what the SDK would look like. I can happily run my own Java programs (including Opera, GMail, GMaps and XTrainer [which has access to the built-in pedometer!]). I'm an AT&T customer; I would expect nothing less from the iPhone.

      Oh, and my Sony w580i has removable media and batteries. I can upgrade and maintain it without sending it back to Sony or buying a new one. I love Apple's products, but the iPhone is in the same pile with Apple TV, as far as I'm concerned. Perhaps some Android-based device will be my next phone; I'll have to wait and see.

      --
      The wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
    10. Re:troll bait by cowscows · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Apple will allow you to distribute free applications for the iPhone. I don't understand where you expect all this nickle and dime'ing to come from. As for shutting out hobbyists, I'm just guessing here same as you were, but I haven't seen anything from Apple that leaves me to believe that they'll be particularly selective about who they allow to distribute through iTunes. You just have to make apps that follow their rules.

      The mac world has a very strong history of high quality shareware/freeware. I think a hobbyists windows developer trying to make the jump from the windows and/or linux world to the iPhone will have less to worry about in terms of selectiveness from Apple, than they will from end users. Apple users tend to be much more picky about the appearance/interface of their software.

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

    11. Re:troll bait by eclectic4 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What no one is understanding... if the iPhone was ubiquitous, which it is not and isn't supposed to be, then there may be an issue. If you went to the store and only had iPhones to choose from for your cellular needs, then again, this might be a problem (like say, purchasing a computer for example).

      But that's not what the iPhone is.

      From Apple: "Firefox? Why? Safari is installed and working fine. Why fuck that up? Skype? This is a CELL PHONE. Why in the world would we allow Skype on the thing? You guys do realize that 95% of the cell phone/iPhone purchasers have no idea what you are talking about, and never will, right? Therefore, if you do not want an iPhone, then don't buy one. We sold 1 million of these in 74 days, and this just makes it better. We're sorry if the geeks are pissed, we don't care. Hack something else. One of the biggest reasons people buy our stuff is because we control what goes on it for the most pat. This keeps support costs, frustration and time lost to a minimum for most of our customers. Want something that you can install whatever you want on it, giving it more points of failure, be my guest."

      --

      "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel Boorstin
  34. Re:It is their phone by abaddononion · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The issue here is about Apple using their strength in one arena to push their mechanisms in others. It's the EXACT same thing Sony did with the Playstation 3. They used their console success to try to push Blu-Ray out to everyone. People complained that it was "wrong". It's the same as when Windows uses the fact that they push an OS out to try to push a browser out with it as well. It applies to Apple just as much here. They are trying to use their phone to push out ObjC over Java.

    Im willing to bet you're one of the same people who cries out how wrong it is when Sony or Microsoft does it. Why isnt it wrong when Apple does it? Is this because, yet again, it's Apple?

  35. Re:It is their phone by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Incidentally, you can load whatever you want on it, through the jailbreak system. If the device is screwed up because of what you did, then the device maker has no obligation to help you.

    You can choose not to buy it. A lot of devices are like that, consoles are a very popular example. If you don't like the limitations of the system, that's fine, don't buy it. The rules don't change just because someone buys it.

  36. Re:It is their phone by MightyYar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You mean like the X Box?

    Windows is open because that is what the market demands. Notice how even signed drivers become an issue for them. The phone market has the Windows Mobile, Palm, etc, platforms if you want open (or semi-open). The iPhone is among the ranks of thousands that is not completely open. If the market demanded open phones, Palm and Windows Mobile would dominate.

    Why do people get so bent out of shape? There are many, many phones on the market. It's hardly a shock that AT&T/Apple would lock out Skype when using the AT&T network! Sort of a business model threat, no? Apple has no monopoly on phones, smart phones, or even good phones. They make one nifty smart phone, and ways exist to run stuff on it outside the official SDK if you really want to.

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  37. Re:It is their phone by AKAImBatman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    how is this different from anyone else's SDK?

    I have never seen an SDK that so blatantly locks users out of common usage like this, have you? Maybe I've managed a decade and a half in this industry without noticing that it's normal practice to use legal force to ensure that an SDK is only used a particular way?

    (That was sarcasm, in case you didn't catch it. The worst I've ever seen is Sun's "do not use this in a nuclear reactor" bit, which wasn't written in a binding fashion. More like a "if you do this and frak it up, it's on your head, not ours.")
  38. Re:It is their phone by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Apple is not (yet) a monopoly here, so I'm not really sure why they should be legally compelled to do this. Compare to game consoles, where the situation is exactly the same, only often worse -- I'm guessing a real console SDK (and not just some arcade or virtualized crippleware) is going to cost a bit more.

    That's not to say it's alright. But it does seem like something they should be allowed to do, and something which was an obvious move, given that the thing started out locked-down. I really hope no one bought an iPhone based on the coming SDK...

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  39. Re:No Skype makes sense, No GPLv3 is annoying... by nuzak · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You're getting a skewed picture here on slashdot of course: most people have given up trying to overcome the special pleading and double standards on most internet fora that apply to Apple. What's left is more or less an echo chamber.

    Anyway, I look forward to competition in platform openness, and it's definitely forthcoming. Apple can keep its touch screens. Tell the truth, I mostly just want a phone that has the battery life that my 8-year-old nokia had.

    --
    Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
  40. No different than.... by UseCase · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is no different than Nintendo/Sony limiting devkit distribution and not allowing some gaming subject matter or play mechanics to get through to the public. Whether its right or wrong isn't the question. The question is whether you as an individual will buy into there model and abide by there rules. Of course they are going to limit certain features, this is a cell phone. Anyway, they are a company generating revenue and have share holders to contend with. Also, i really don't think the lack of java support is that big of a deal. The cocoa/objective-c/xcode trifecta is more than adequate for development here and fits better into A$ way of doing things. If you have learned java and its libraries then learning objective-c (weird looking but cool) and cocoa (a really complete library) should pose no problem at all.

  41. Re:No Skype makes sense, No GPLv3 is annoying... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The "No Competing Browsers" I understand as well. You see, on the iPhone, the browser really isn't ordinary, but the keys to the kingdom of usability and utility. Apple wanting to protect that makes sense.

    Actually, that makes no sense. If it's the most important thing to have work well, why wouldn't they welcome competition? If iPhone Firefox ended up being better than iPhone Safari, why wouldn't Apple be happy about this situation? Their customers get better utility out of the device, and Apple doesn't have to lift a finger.

    What is probably the MOST annoying is "No GPLv3": Apple won't distribute GPLv3 code because it means giving aways the signing key for that app (the anti-TiVoization clause), and since all distribution is through apple, GPLv3 is out.

    I guess this can be the first documented case of the GPLv3 actually working, and working well. I'm sorry, but a version of an app which you can't modify without paying $100 for a "developer key" is not free software.

    However, for all the griping, this is actually an AMAZINGLY flexible and unrestricted platform, compared with say game consoles or other PDAs.

    And amazingly locked down, compared with Android.

    And for $100 to get a developer key (which allows you to directly run on your own devices), who cares about the distribution restrictions if you are some l33t haxor type who just HAS to run firefox on his iPhone.

    In what way is this OK?

    If Microsoft wanted to charge you $100 to run Firefox on Windows, you would burn them at the stake. The only thing that makes Apple different is that they aren't a monopoly... yet.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  42. Remember this is the same Apple that ... by celtic_hackr · · Score: 4, Interesting

    restricted people's ability to build clone machines back in the day.

    The same Apple that restricted what software could run on their machines.
    The same Apple that restricted ...

    Nothing new here, this is Apple's secret formula to ensure they never have more than 3-5% market share of anything they do in the long term. I remember a time when Apple was very popular, but due to their complete lack of business acumen doomed their ability to take over the hardware and software markets. They could of taken the computer world by storm and buried IBM and Microsoft, but they have no clue how to market long term. Short term marketing and hype they've got down, but I didn't buy an iPhone, because, I know the end result, which we are now starting to see more clearly. Some people might say I was psychic, o which I would say know your history and you won't be doomed to repeat it.

    Same ol' Apple. It's comforting to know I can rely on them to be consistent. Isn't Steve Jobs at the helm again?

    1. Re:Remember this is the same Apple that ... by Tom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, MS owns the computing world, so from that perspective, Apple failed.

      But if you look at what they rule, and how, you get a different perspective. It's not like windos is the #1 OS because it's so great, we all know that. The state of software is horrible, quality non-existent, interoperability weak - even on the same OS.

      What kind of "victory" is that? Yeah, it made Billy the richest man alive. It also made him one of the guys who can't wash his name clean even with billions of bucks poured into charity. He's also a criminal, in all senses but the pure legal one which for some reasons allows you to do illegal things legally as long as you don't do them as a private citizen but as the CEO of a large enough company. He also makes some of the worst powerpoint presentations I've ever seen. :-)

      Market share is cool, but quite honestly, I'd rather have a 10% share in any given market and be able to look at myself in the mirror each morning, than having the other 90% and know I'm a scumbag. And I'd rather buy a computer from the honest guy with the 10% share than from the scumbag. Which, incidently, means all the scumbag-lovers are somewhere else, which only makes my choice even more attractive.

      So, all you windos lovers: Please stay in your corner, we simply don't want you over here. Write your buggy software for your crashing piece of shit, hail Bill and make sure to buy the xbox720. Meanwhile, we guys over here will simply work on our Macs and use our iPhones and occasionaly wonder what the noise is all about.

      Because, you know, I didn't buy an iPhone because every idiot can write shitty software for it, I bought it because I liked what was in the package. And aside from the few dozen guys who bought it to prove the world they can hack it open, everyone else had pretty much the same reason. So the whole whining, crying and complaining over what exactly is or is not possible with the SDK - it's simply pointless. The people who care largely aren't the people who did or will buy an iPhone anyways.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  43. Re:It is their phone by Wildclaw · · Score: 2, Interesting

    They can, but if they do I'll just categorize them as the bullshitting coorporate profit whores that they are.

    Same as I do with any coorporation that sell products with artifical limitations. Actually, as I don't really keep a black & white world view, I do have a sliding scale for it, but Apple is definitly not on the right side on that scale.

  44. Making stupidity more painful by jmorris42 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    > decide that a phone is just an appliance and I can live with Apple's constraints...

    Why the docile obedience? Just because it is Apple?

    You buy it, you do whatever the hell you want with it! Isn't that the mantra here at Slashdot? Except when it is Apple.

    I want to see someone port Iceweasel to the damned thing, post a torrent up on a server somewhere anonymously and watch Apple suffer the PR nightmare of trying to ban it. If we can't outright outlaw stupidity we can certainly make it painful.

    Adn if Sun actually had a pair of dangling between their legs they would port Java and double dog dare Steve to sue. Come on, they stared Microsoft down over their mistreatment of Java, why be scared of Apple when, again, this is a case they can't lose. Because it won't ever make it to a court of law, Apple would get their asses handed to them in the court of public opinion years before the wheels of justice could turn.

    --
    Democrat delenda est
    1. Re:Making stupidity more painful by itomato · · Score: 2, Interesting

      jmorris42: "Adn if Sun actually had a pair of dangling between their legs they would port Java and double dog dare Steve to sue."

      Jonathan Schwartz owes his success (as CEO of Sun) to Steve Jobs. Without Openstep, there would have been no Lighthouse suite.. Without Lighthouse suite, there would be no OpenOffice, and no Schwartz as head of Sun.

      Sun is working on their strategy. Soon, the only thing the iPhone will have over competitors is Design cache' and that "safe, locked-in, tucked-in feeling". Meanwhile, you will be running whatever /where-ever/ as in the original promise of Java. Apple will need Java, not the other way around. There's no way that Apple's SDK alone will meet the demands of Enterprise as it goes headlong into Blackberry territory, especially as more consolidation and competition occurs in the "Smartphone Space".

      Just my $0.02 (.006 THB)

    2. Re:Making stupidity more painful by hax0r_this · · Score: 2, Informative

      Maybe you missed the part where nearly every iPhone update has tried to block the jailbreak?

      I was literally days away from buying an iPhone before the SDK release, was just waiting to make sure it would make the phone worth it (honestly, without 3rd party applications the iPhone is worth about 1/5 of what it costs). But now I'm not so sure that I'll be getting one at all.

    3. Re:Making stupidity more painful by jmorris42 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      > Jonathan Schwartz owes his success (as CEO of Sun) to Steve Jobs.

      Ok, I'm willimg to admit I might be mistaken, but I always believed that OpenOffice was a descendent of Star Office which was an old OS/2 app. But since nothing would exist in the computer world without Steve to create it, i'm sure you will find some way to retell the OO.o creation story.

      > Meanwhile, you will be running whatever /where-ever/ as in the original promise of Java.

      Except for the couple million marching morons who buy the shiny handcuffs Steve sells. Java survived it's whole life so far ignoring Linux/BSD/etc because we have never been anything more than an asterisk in the deployed desktop (notice that Java on the server has worked much more reliably on Linux) statistics. Apple, unfortunately, isn't an asterisk. Condemed to always remain under 10% to avoid the wrath of Microsoft, but a real viable player that Java can't ignore and claim "write once, run everywhere" with a straight face.

      > Apple will need Java, not the other way around. There's no way that Apple's SDK alone will meet the
      > demands of Enterprise as it goes headlong into Blackberry territory,

      Steve has never yet shown any signs of wanting or needing ANYONE else with the sole exception of doing whatever it takes to keep Microsoft Office available for the Mac. So no, they won't 'need' Java. Because Apple knows something you obviously don't; Apple will never play in the Enterprise space. Luxury boutique goods are never going to be picked by the green eyeshades types. Kewl industrial design means nothing. Price performance, wide compatibility with Microsoft's 'standards', conformance with actual standards, durability, stable product availibility for long periods of tume, etc. are what corporate types make purchasing decisions based on.

      The limit of Apple's desire to 'operate' in the Enterprise space is to have just enough compatibility with enterprise apps that iPhones that employees purchase themselves aren't banned from corporate networks and/or replaced with a company issued phone/pda.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    4. Re:Making stupidity more painful by ultramk · · Score: 2, Funny

      You buy it, you do whatever the hell you want with it! Wow, you bought AT&T's whole network?!? How much did that set you back?
      --
      You catch enchiladas by picking them up behind the head and holding them underwater until they don't kick anymore -VeGas
    5. Re:Making stupidity more painful by badboy_tw2002 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's total BS. If they really didn't care they'd give you a fast and easy route to install any app. There's a big difference between running an app that crashes the phone and having your phone bricked by trying to work around their DRM with various hacks and such. I can throw anything up on my WM6 device, and if it crashes, yes, that's my fault, but most of the time I won't destroy my phone by trying to install some java game. Apple is taking a very definite stance here and its not "do what you please, we don't care."

  45. Re:No Skype makes sense, No GPLv3 is annoying... by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The dev. cert is free, and if you're only doing freeware that's the only thing you need.. anyone can sign an app for their own phone.

    $250 if you want the convenience of commercial pre-signed apps. And Nokia don't take 30% of your revenue for the privilege... so it's *still* cheaper than the apple solution.

  46. Antitrust sanctions by MacDork · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They would be leveled against Apple the same way they were leveled against Microsoft. Microsoft uses its legal monopoly in OSes to illegally create a monopoly in browsers. Apple uses its legal monopoly in portable music players and online music sales to extend that dominance into the phone market. And before you argue that iPod dominance and a content distribution network does not give them an advantage in the phone market, allow me to point out that /.'ers have been awarded +5 insightful to people for saying exactly that with positive Apple spin. I'm sure /. hypocrisy will see me modded down for point at cracks in Apple's armor though.

    1. Re:Antitrust sanctions by vijayiyer · · Score: 5, Funny

      Your Honor, I will refer to exhibit "A", a Slashdot post. Note that it was moderated "+5 insightful". Courtroom: The defendant, Apple Corp, is found guilty as charged!

    2. Re:Antitrust sanctions by ContractualObligatio · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Two logical errors there:

      Microsoft's illegal abuse of its monopoly position is not from simply having a mere "advantage" in the browser market. A browser requires an OS - whoever controls the OS has strong control over the browser. The OS is itself the distribution mechanism for the new browser. Conversely, iPod owners do not suddenly find themselves in possession of a free iPhone. These are quite obviously completely different situations.

      Secondly, for a post to get +5 Insightful only requires a few moderators to mark it up. It does not mean the post is agreed to by the majority, or even makes a valid point. There's many a groupthink post that gets a +5 rating. It's actually kind of pathetic you think a point shouldn't be argued simply because of a +5 rating in another thread.

      "I'm sure /. hypocrisy will see me modded down for point at cracks in Apple's armor though."
        - The passive aggressive schtick is kind of lame, as well.

    3. Re:Antitrust sanctions by itsdapead · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Apple uses its legal monopoly in portable music players and online music sales to extend that dominance into the phone market.

      If and when

      1. Apple engages in anti-competitive practices to force all portable music players to come bundled with iTunes software, forcing lots of existing music players and online music services into oblivion
      2. Apple gimmicks iPods so that they will only play music from iTunes (or so they need to be re-booted between playing iTunes and regular MP3s)
      3. The music industry finally throws in the towel on DRM - which is the main reason iTunes tunes won't play on non-Apple players, and why many of the competitors to iTunes won't play on iPods...

      then, maybe you can start to compare Apple's role in the music player market with Microsoft's role in the operating systems market.

      Meanwhile, I'll keep using my iPod Nano to play MP3s made from my own CDs (and, slowly, MP3s bought online as decent services such as Play.com start offering unencumbered legal downloads for sensible prices) with absolutely no compulsion to buy from iTunes and absolutely no compulsion to buy another iPod unless I happen to prefer Apple's design.

      What's more - I can buy a Symbian/Windows Mobile/Brand X phone and it still accepts incoming calls and texts from an iPhone! - so I can choose not to buy an iPhone too!

      So, please explain again how the Apple "monopoly" (which doesn't force anybody to buy an iPod and/or buy from iTunes unless they like the product) remotely resembles the MS operating system monopoly (which means that many Mac and Linux users are pretty much obliged to dual-boot or run emulation software - usually requiring us to buy a copy of windows & MS Office - in order to interoperate with the masses)?

      --
      In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
  47. Re:It is their phone by samkass · · Score: 4, Informative

    I have never seen an SDK that so blatantly locks users out of common usage like this, have you? Maybe I've managed a decade and a half in this industry without noticing that it's normal practice to use legal force to ensure that an SDK is only used a particular way?

    Which industry? This isn't atypical in the embedded industry at all. It is very unusual in the general computing industry. I think the issue here is that the iPhone and iTouch span that divide moreso than any device that came before it.

    If you wanted to develop for the PlayStation, for instance, you had to sign all kinds of agreements. And they were relatively open compared to some embedded device makers.

    --
    E pluribus unum
  48. Re:No Skype makes sense, No GPLv3 is annoying... by kidgenius · · Score: 2, Informative

    If Microsoft wanted to charge you $100 to run Firefox on Windows, you would burn them at the stake. The only thing that makes Apple different is that they aren't a monopoly... yet. Sorry, but this is different. See, Apple has never said you cannot run Firefox on their device. You are free to write it and make it work. You figure out a way to do that, congratulations. You can do whatever the hell you want with the iPhone. But how are you going to get this app on the iPhone? It's up to you to figure that part out, and if you brick your iPhone, that's your problem. All they are saying is that you cannot use their SDK to develop these apps. That's part of their licensing agreement. Don't agree? Don't use their SDK and go it on your own, you have that right after all.

  49. Re:It is their phone by mweather · · Score: 2, Informative

    "I have never seen an SDK that so blatantly locks users out of common usage like this, have you?" Sure I have: Microsoft XNA.

  50. It's a secret formula, all right by blueZ3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But not the one you're thinking of. It's a secret formula for Apple to remain profitable.

    Apple's restrictions on hardware significantly reduce the amount of development they do and the amount of support Apple has to provide. OSX doesn't have to have drivers for every crappy, made-in-China knockoff MoBo. They never have to take support calls where someone says "Hey, I tried installing OSX on this 286 DX-2 66 machine, and it runs like crap!" When you're Microsoft, you can afford to blow off consumers, since they pretty much don't understand what their options are and have become used to having an OS maker who says "FU!" if you have a WGA problem.

    It also ups Apple's profitability, since a lot of people (including yours truly) finally get tired of screwing around trying to get Windows to cooperate and decide to buy something that "just works" even if it costs a little more. I used to build my own boxes back in the day--but eventually I grew up, moved out of the basement (figuratively) and got a life. I want to take my wife to dinner and a movie and have a tea party with my daughter, not spend three hours diagnosing some obscure video card driver issue. I use Linux at work (and love it) but I'm not up for doing Linux support (for my wife and myself) at home.

    Apple's thing may not be for you, but it seems to be working out for them.

    --
    Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
  51. That's insightful? by snowwrestler · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There's no SDK for a microwave, not even a limited one.

    No one's stopping people from running whatever the hell they want on their iPhone either. Apple has not sued, attacked, harassed, or taken any legal action whatsoever against the jailbreak folks. Even the "bricking" software updates were announced ahead of time and could be refused by the owner. They haven't helped them--true. But neither has my microwave manufacturer.

    If you don't want the restrictions, don't use the official SDK. You will face no legal action whatsoever for doing whatever you want to the phone you own. But Apple is not legally obligated to help you do anything to the phone you own either. There is absolutely no legal duty for a company to make any electronics device a software platform. If you want to hack your phone, go right ahead, you have every right, but don't expect a helping hand. Can't have it both ways.

    --
    Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
  52. What? That makes no sense by snowwrestler · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There's a difference between not providing support and using legal means to restrict the usage. Apple isn't just not supporting the SDK (which would be fine), they're saying that you LEGALLY cannot do this with your phone and the SDK. That is a meaningless distinction--any restriction must ultimately come down to a legal basis. I think the distinction you're looking for is the difference between legally limiting their SDK, and legally preventing you from doing any hacking on your phone whatsoever.

    What Apple is not doing, and have never done, is to legally go after people who hack the phone without using the official SDK. They have never even so much as sent a threatening letter to the jailbreak folks.

    There is no legal duty whatsoever to provide an SDK for an electronics device. Your legal rights to do whatever you want to your phone do not extend to forcing Apple to provide an official SDK to allow it. The law cuts both ways--you have the right to do what you want to your property, but you also have the sole responsibility for doing it.
    --
    Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
  53. Speculation by snowwrestler · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If Apple starts suing people who hack their own iPhone, I'll be at the front of the line complaining. I doubt they will though, because that is very shaky legal ground. Your property rights have nothing to do with Apple being "anticompetitive." They are based on common law principles that go back hundreds of years. But as I noted, those rights do not extend to forcing Apple to provide the SDK you want.

    --
    Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
    1. Re:Speculation by arminw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      .....What would you say about a computer manufacturer that voided the warranty if you install Linux?....

      I'd say they'd be well within their rights to do that and you would be well within your rights not buy from them.

      You don't have to buy a given product. Vote with your wallet.

      --
      All theory is gray
  54. Apple's point of view by R3d+Jack · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Whether I agree with it or not, Apple's direction is to completely control their offerings. From what I see, they do this to maintain the best possible user experience they can deliver. If they allow their users, who tend to be non-technical, to download anything from anywhere, then they (feel that they) become responsible for any degradation in the user experience. Whether or not that is reasonable is a matter of opinion. Whether or not they have the right to do that is not.

    As far as Java goes, I'm yet another Java developer. I love Java apps. They need no installer; they bypass the corporate security monitor on my workstation. They would also bypass any controls Apple uses to protect the user experience on the iPhone.

    I don't own an iPhone, and I probably never will. It's not as if I don't have options.

  55. Did anyone read the article? by mckinnsb · · Score: 2, Interesting


    At risk of being modded down:



    I'm no fan of blocking Firefox or Opera COMPLETELY for the iPhone (I use both), but the reason why they are preventing FireFox/Opera from having plugin architectures is due to the existence of Skype plugins for Opera/Firefox.



    They aren't blocking Skype completely from the iPhone, they are preventing it from being able to operate over AT&T's cellular network. It can still operate under Wi-Fi. The reason for this is that iPhone plans allow UNLIMITED data transfer currently, and if AT&T wants it to stay that way, it has to prevent Skype from using 3G/EDGE because that will cut into their minutes-per-month pricing plans. That being said, Telecom companies are evil.



    Honestly though, is this entirely unexpected? We will still see Firefox and Opera on the iPhone, possibly, and maybe Apple will relent and allow plugins that don't use the cellular network (like Pop-up blockers, Firebug), but can you really expect a company-no matter how much you question their ethics- to shoot themselves in the foot and destroy their entire buisness model?



    The reason why Skype is allowed on most Windows Mobile devices is because AT&T charges money after the first 5000mb (don't trust that 0 cent per mb), AND they are getting an extra 35-65 dollars depending on your plan. With the iPhone, its included. They would be painting themselves into a corner if they allowed Skype on the iPhone to use the 3G network.



    I'm sure you'll see lots of lovely apps for the iPhone.



    Lastly: I'm not buying one of these stupid things, just so you know. I hate the cellphone I currently have. I run a desktop windows machine I built myself and I have an Apple MacBook. For christs sake though, it really does seem like too many people have a "Jump to Conclusions" mat.

  56. vote with your dollars by rice_burners_suck · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Don't like it? Don't buy an iPhone. It's that easy. Nobody is forcing you to get one. There are plenty of other phones and tiny computers on the market, running everything from Windows CE to Palm OS to Linux. It's not the same as the former M$ monopoly of years past. That monopoly existed because there was no other product on the market to fill that need, and M$ leveraged that control to push their other products. In Apple's case, there are plenty of other products on the market, and this one comes with agreements that Apple made with AT&T. If you like it, buy it. If you don't, don't.

  57. There are some differences by lnxpilot · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Not to defend Apple, but the situation is quite different for the iPhone than for Microsoft:
    - Apple makes a complete, integrated product: hardware + software.
    - They have an image of "style" and "high quality" to maintain.
    - They are worried about "diluting" that image with potentially crappy 3rd party apps.
    - With Apple, people expect a self-contained product that "just works", so the tech support calls would end up going to Apple.
    - This is even more critical with a cell phone than a home PC. It can't crash when you need to make a 911 call!

    On the other hand:
    - Microsoft makes only the software and for cheap, commodity hardware. They don't make the whole product.
    - Many things come to mind for people when the name Microsoft is mentioned, but style and high quality are not among them.
    - 3rd party software vendors for Microsoft platforms are responsible for their own tech support.

  58. Re:amerature troll by SeaFox · · Score: 3, Funny

    You're too late. The thread was ended with that post according to Godwin's Law.

  59. Good Gravy by His+Shadow · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Can anymore hyperbole be stuffed into these pathetic excuses for journalism? "face government regulators"? Are you high? IT'S APPLE'S PHONE! It's THEIR OS! Like it or lump it. And don't even bother with bullshit about "monopolies". When the iPhone is 95% of the mobile phone market, we'll get back to you.

    --

    Fiat Homos et Pereat Theos