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In Australia, Bosses May Get Power To Snoop On Emails

Numerous readers noted the proposal by the Australian government for legislation to allow employers to snoop on employees' email and IM conversations. This is being proposed in the name of protecting the infrastructure from terrorism. The attorney-general cited the Estonian cyber-attacks as a reason why such employer monitoring is necessary in Australia — never mind that the attacks were perpetrated by a lone 20-year-old and not by a foreign government or terrorist. The law permitting intelligence agencies to snoop on citizens without permission expires this June, leading to the government's urgency to extend and expand it. The chairman of Electronic Frontiers Australia said, "These new powers will facilitate fishing expeditions into employees' emails and computer use rather than being used to protect critical infrastructure. I'm talking about corporate eavesdropping and witch-hunts... If an employer wanted to [sack] someone, they could use these powers."

287 comments

  1. In Kiwi New Zealand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Snoopy gets the power to email your boss!

    1. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by SHaFT7 · · Score: 3, Informative

      can't you already do this in the states?

    2. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by speedingant · · Score: 3, Informative

      Also in NZ. It makes complete sense! They have every right to see what is going on inside their own company, and what activity is going on inside their network.

    3. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by JustShootMe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Funny story - where I work there is a very liberal network use policy - you can use it how you like as long as your manager is happy with your work and you don't shut the network down.

      Someone shut the network down, I think with a P2P site.

      The network guys sit right next to me. They were having a great time tracking down the culprit. And even funnier is people were coming out of the woodwork saying "my bad!" when it wasn't even them!

      But I was very much OK with that. That person was saturating the network connection and stopping real work from getting done.

      --
      For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
    4. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you're using your employer's resources, they have the right to monitor anything on their systems that they damn well please.

      What the heck would you expect?

      If you're worried about it, don't use company resources for personal access. Is this really so hard to understand?

      Sheesh. This liberal feeling of entitlement has gone way too far.

      In reality, many employers don't care what you do, as long as it isn't illegal or interfering with the quality of work. However, they do retain the right to intervene if they feel it's necessary.

    5. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Cassius+Corodes · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Its not so much the new rules that anger me, for employers have previously just asked you to sign an agreement giving them that right, its that way they are introduced as to "fight terrorism". If I was osama I would be laughing my head of every time a new law is introduced to fight terrorism. We are just handing them moral victory after victory and they are just sitting in a cave somewhere.

      --
      Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
    6. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by MrNaz · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As a small business owner in Australia, I would like to make it clear that I would never read my employees' emails even if I thought they were stealing from me. I consider privacy invasion to be wrong, and as the phrase goes, two wrongs don't make a right. Invading privacy to stop them stealing is as wrong as breaking into their house to steal back whatever they took.

      It is not possible for employees, in the modern day and age, to sterilise themselves personally when they walk into the workplace. They still have friends they talk to, they still have families they think about, they still have pressing non-work issues they need to deal with. Expecting this to all disappear at 9am and reappear at 5:30pm is unreasonable, and as a business owner, I don't expect it of my staff, even though (assuming it's even possible which it isn't) it may increase productivity.

      If I have an issue with a staff member stealing or doing something else that breaks the boundaries or law or morality, I don't want to deal with that issue by breaking the boundaries of law or morality. I can and will intervene to protect my business, but only if I don't violate their rights in the process. I have yet (in 8 years) to come across a scenario where I was not able to protect myself and still follow this principle. I don't believe I ever will. This experience affirms my belief that one does NOT have to trade freedom and/or morality for security and/or order.

      Sheesh. This feeling of "anything goes" in the pursuit of security and law and order has gone way too far.

      --
      I hate printers.
    7. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by MrNaz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not about fighting terrorism. It never was. It's about power pooling into the hands of the few.

      --
      I hate printers.
    8. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      can't you already do this in the states? Yes you can. Where I work (national security stuff), they can also monitor your home e-mail. And snail mail. And phone calls. And show up and randomly polygraph you. I suppose that I could just encrypt everything, but that would just encourage additional scrutiny. I signed off on the access they granted me, so I don't feel like I can complain, but it's still a little emasculating.

      It makes me feel very safe...
    9. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Moridineas · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I was osama I would be laughing my head of every time a new law is introduced to fight terrorism. We are just handing them moral victory after victory and they are just sitting in a cave somewhere. Please supply any evidence or even just reasoning that would explain why UBL cares one whit about civil liberties? Or how it could possibly be construed as a "moral victory"? Anything?

      I don't get it--do you REALLY think UBL is cackling because bosses can read employee's emails now? I think the fact that that's how you are able to empathize with him and the al-Qaeda mindset is laughable, but in the end, very typical of many westerners.
    10. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Moridineas · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I am not a small business owner, but I work at a small business in the US, and I would just add that at my company, there's little to no privacy. There are only about 15 people, and if someone is out sick, on vacation, on a business trip, etc--someone else will read their email to see if there's anything that has to be replied to immediately.

      This goes for the bosses computer+email too.

      There have never been any problems that I've heard of--I mean the general standard is, if you're reading someones email and you see its personal, dont read it. Just look at the business email. Not always possible, but it hasn't been a problem in my experience.

      I don't really think most people use their business addresses for personal email very often incidentally--everyone seems to use yahoo/gmail/whatever. (I know I do)

    11. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its kind of a hollow moral victory if you have to celebrate it from a cave...

    12. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Cassius+Corodes · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Its not so much that he cares about civil liberties, champ (can I call you champ?) its that he is a terrorist, and his main job is screw with your head. When people are willing to be inconvenienced, champ, for the sake of protection from terrorism - he has succeeded for he has made an negative impact on your life. Now whether or not osama really knows or cares about this is largely irrelevant.

      P.S. I'm not sure what sort of intellectual masturbation led you to assume I empathise with osama but rest assured that its wrong.

      --
      Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
    13. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Moridineas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Its not so much that he cares about civil liberties, champ (can I call you champ?) You certaintly may, though I'm not sure why you would!! (out of curiosity--why would you?)

      its that he is a terrorist, and his main job is screw with your head. Ok, I completely disagree with this. His "main job" is not to "screw with" anybodies head--he has a series of discrete and explicit goals that he has repeatedly laid out. These include Western troops out of the Arabian peninsula. In fact this was one of his earliest causes and the one that made him target the US in particular.Troops out of Iraq is another one. Similar motivations took him to Afghanistan to fight the Russians out of an Islamic country. Etc. The key thing you should get out of this is that he isn't just playing at being a terrorist for the heck of it, and he doesn't get some perverse pleasure out of mindgames with Joe Sixpack American, he has goals.

      When people are willing to be inconvenienced, champ, for the sake of protection from terrorism - he has succeeded for he has made an negative impact on your life. The problem with this, is that your underlying premise is 100% false.

      Additionally, if acts that protect from terrorism WORK (and I'm not going to assume that they do...but let's just say if) then guess what--he's been stopped from doing what he's been trying to do (that is, terrorist actions).

      Now whether or not osama really knows or cares about this is largely irrelevant. The first thing you've said I agree with--it IS totally irrelevant!

      P.S. I'm not sure what sort of intellectual masturbation led you to assume I empathise with osama but rest assured that its wrong. Apologies if you're not a native English speaker and have misunderstood what I meant--I didn't mean to imply anything like you seem to think I did. The OED definition of empathy is "The power of projecting one's personality into (and so fully comprehending) the object of contemplation" and to empathize is to do this. In simpler terms, it's putting yourself in someone else's shoes, or seeing the world from their eyes.

      So, when I said "I think the fact that that's how you are able to empathize with him" what was meant was that when you try to understand UBL's actions from his point of view, you get something totally off base which doesn't fit with anything UBL/AQ/any other Islamist terrorist group has ever said. Or, in my opinion, you've failed to understand his actions at all.

      I think the word you thought I said was "sympathize"
    14. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by zsau · · Score: 1

      Yes, exactly. I was one of the numerous readers who submitted this story, and my write-up focused on that point. So has most of everything I've seen about this. I couldn't wait until the "terrorism" thing got so far stretched that it was obviously stupid to anyone who cared to look; I think with this piece of news we've finally got there. Now hopefully people will start thinking about the link between terrorism and a proposed infringement on our rights --- not constitutional rights, because we, as Australians, have none. Just the rights we've always assumed we have.

      --
      Look out!
    15. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Cassius+Corodes · · Score: 1

      Sorry if I was rude earlier, you turned out to be more reasonable than I had assumed.

      1. I just like calling people champ - champ.

      2. Yes and no, naturally he does have specific goals (I doubt anyone thinks he is a terrorist for fun) his way of achieving those is thru terrorism, which is to "inspire terror" in a population so as to achieve their aim - (this is where I get the notion that its a way of messing with your head).

      3. I would disagree

      4. Indeed, champ.

      5. While I am not a native speaker, your wording to me implied the sympathise notion which is what led me to respond as such. This not being the case I apologise for misunderstanding you.

      --
      Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
    16. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by uhlume · · Score: 1

      "Liberal"? Fuck off, troll.

      --
      SIERRA TANGO FOXTROT UNIFORM
    17. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by it0 · · Score: 1

      No it does not.

      I like the following example.

      Let's say you take a piece of paper and a pen from work home.

      Using this, you write a letter to whomever.

      Do you feel that your employer is allowed to read that letter?

      I find not, do you argue, that it was not done during company time? There are many times during work that I think of non-related work items, or make a private call if necessary. I also do some research at home for work or have idea's that are work related.

      There are 2 keywords here:
      1) privacy: private matters should remain private
      2) moderate use: you work at work and private matters you do in your private time, some times they mix up, but as long it's moderate there shouldn't be a problem.

    18. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by piojo · · Score: 1

      That's not a very good analogy... it doesn't take place at work. It doesn't take place during work hours. Finally, you aren't asking your employer to deliver the communication for you.

      --
      A cat can't teach a dog to bark.
    19. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by it0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Same goes for a private phone call.

      Yet it seems to be normal. There are a lot of valid reasons to make a private call during work.

      By your reasoning it's also ok for the employer to check the text message on your mobile phone.

      In the end it's all about trust, if your employer doesn't trust you, either you did something wrong or your employer is paranoid.

    20. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      thank you!
      you are a shining light here on slashdot.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    21. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by stupidflanders · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I'm from the US. I work in IT. At every company I have worked for, you must sign a technology use policy form. Here are some real life examples of people who have been fired for misusing company technology:
      • * Using your company email address to apply for other jobs (lead to early termination).
      • * Installing a cracked copy of a video game on your company laptop, and being found in possession of 2,000+ illegally downloaded MP3's (proved by network and IP logs). The cracked game also happened to contain a trojan downloader.
      • * "Killing your laptop": downloading so many viruses, infected emails, toolbars, and keyloggers that the computer is utterly unusable. Visiting pr0n sites on company time did not help this person's case either.
      • * Using the color laser printer to make 100's of fliers for your garage sale, bake sale, poetry reading, and printing out every email "just in case" (everything is tracked by cost-code, $0.08 per page).
      • * Using company-provided internet access to hire someone to kill your spouse.
      • * Pulling up outside of a hotel to leeching off their "free wi-fi", not using the company provided VPN, and then have the employee's connection snooped causing loss of company data.
    22. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by fmarkham · · Score: 1

      Exactly - this is why we need a legislative charter of rights!

    23. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I must have missed something. I think all the gp meant was that:

      1) There is no shortage of people who hate America and freedom (both the advantages and disadvantages of freedom). Some of these people, like Osama and Co., plot to kill American citizens regardless of where the Americans are.

      2) There are a select few "powerful" people that actually control the security of the airlines. These people, whether maliciously (hard to believe, assume incompetence over malice, etc) or accidentally left a few ways for the people described by (1) to attack US citizens on a large scale (think of every terrorist attack in the past 8 years).

      3) These powerful few, whoever they are, have the perfect scapegoat in the terrorists, for restricting the rights of the average US citizen. A more controlled, easily influenced, or easily predictable US citizenry increases the power of these select few.

      4) America becomes a police state, with the powerful looking completely innocent, and the misguided, albeit well-intentioned but largely ignorant (by choice or social engineering) public will submit to anything if they are prodded enough with words like "terrorism", "violent video games", "think of the children", and "but that hurts my feelings".

      I don't think you empathize with terrorists. I don't think MrNaz was insinuating anything of the sort, although I do think that only MrNaz can answer that question with any certainty.

      Furthermore, I don't empathize with terrorists (before anybody accuses me of it). I think wanton killing and destruction is behavior fit for the Middle Ages, and the current wars aren't really being fought on the battle fields, but in people's minds. (Ever wonder why Microsoft calls the struggle for mindshare a "war"?)

      Again, I must have missed something, because I don't understand your post. Probably more my fault than yours, as I can be quite thick, and I'm tired.

      Posting AC for obvious reasons (I'm in the US). God, I never thought I would have to do this.

    24. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by ubrgeek · · Score: 1

      Um ...

      There are 2 keywords here: privacy ... moderate use.

      I know there's a joke in here somewhere, but I haven't had coffee yet ;)

      --
      Bark less. Wag more.
    25. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by v1 · · Score: 1

      I work two jobs with two email addresses, and also have my own mailserver plus another email address from my ISP. I would never send personal information from either of my work email addresses. The same would go for a phone conversation, I don't use the work phones to make personal phonecalls of a private nature. I may call during my lunch break to arrange a plumber's appointment etc, but never anything "private".

      Using resources of your employer, provided for the purpose of getting your job done, for private personal things is just a bad idea all around. Just because your phone or email at home is private does not mean anyone's phone or anyone's email is private for YOU.

      It unfortunately comes as a surprise to me that there are many that believe to the contrary, from both sides of the fence. We're always reading about someone that got busted doing something patently stupid, like making a drug deal over the company phone, or conducting for corporate espionage over the company email.

      But then recently I was surprised that when an employee left, the owner did not want us to forward her email to her replacement, because it may contain personal information. That totally took me by surprise, as I thought that any employer would see no expectation of privacy in the company email.

      I dunno. To me these things seem like common sense, but you know how that goes. That reminds me of the story of the interviewee that took a personal call on his cell phone during a job interview, and asked the interviewer to leave the room to give him some privacy on his call. For things like that I have to ask, "What do you think you're there for? For your employer, or for yourself?"

      I suppose now there will be someone complaining, "But I don't have my own email address." Just because you don't have any means of privacy arranged for yourself does not mean you can just declare privacy anywhere else you find convenient. That's like trying to change clothes in the middle of a public park, and expecting everyone to "look the other way" for you. It's not the world's obligation to provide you with privacy, take ownership of yourself.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    26. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by unlametheweak · · Score: 1

      I don't really think most people use their business addresses for personal email very often incidentally--everyone seems to use yahoo/gmail/whatever. (I know I do) I agree. I also don't think most employees use their company's email to contact terrorist organizations, to brag to their friends about stealing company property or embezzling funds, or any such non-sense. There are however data-retention laws with regards to company email, so these emails can and should be available if such things do occur (given a court order and a search warrant). It is ironic however that these emails are often not available by the most powerful offices in government (like the White House) because the people in charge always end up accidentally deleting their backups, etc.

      I personally never use company email or phones for personal business. Many companies claim that using their free company phones for personal use is OK, but they have a disclaimer on these phones that their conversations will be monitored. Why somebody would want to know that I'm calling my girlfriend to pick me up I do not know, nor do I really care; I just use the public pay phones instead because my privacy is more important then giving some HR person the satisfaction of listening in on my phone calls.

      I suppose company's may be concerned that employee's may be "abusing" their privileges (waisting too much time on personal matters), but that is really a sorry excuse. If HR or any supervisor does not notice a lack of productivity coming from an employee, then these supervisors and bean-counters are not doing their job. Monitoring email to gage productivity is a round-about and inefficient way of doing one's supervising. It is also morally dubious. Yes company's may have the right to be morally dubious, but that doesn't mean they should. I question the efficiency and morality of these practices.

      I do however like the more open approach of your company (where it seems that just about anybody can read anybody else's email), it sounds rather Stallman-like (as in RSM) in the sense that he was against password protecting accounts, etc.
    27. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by mnemotronic · · Score: 1

      My employer has explicitly reserved the right to monitor all emails and all web access. All computers have LanDesk suite (PDF), which inventories and reports on all software installed on a pc, and allows remote admins to monitor and control a pc. Of course they also install anti-virus software, and have extremely restrictive firewall settings, and a web-page net-nanny to let you know when you've clicked on an innocent-looking Google link to a prohibited site, like this one (insecure.org - home of NMAP).

      They're trying to protect the company assets from unauthorized, illegal, or inappropriate use, and thereby keep the company out of court.

      --
      The Russians have won. They have made the world a cesspool of distrust, greed, fear and hate.
    28. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Kartoffel · · Score: 1

      AFAIK it's perfectly legal in the US as long as there's a login banner that mentions consent to monitoring. This Yoyodyne computer is for authorized users only. By accessing this system, you are consenting to complete monitoring with no expectation of privacy. Unauthorized access or use may subject you to disciplinary action and criminal prosecution.

    29. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Ok, I completely disagree with this. His "main job" is not to "screw with" anybodies head--he has a series of discrete and explicit goals that he has repeatedly laid out.

      Why do you feel that OBL deserves any more credibility than any other politician/cult of personality?

      I mean, this IS a guy who has repeatedly worked WITH and even FOR the interests of the USA, whose people were trained on our dime and by our people. Actually, his whole organization was funded by supposed anti-drug money brokered by the Bush family.

      Look how quick they killed Saddam, he had some truly cogent views even if he was responsible for attempted genocide, and they killed him as quick as they could and made him look like crap in order to discredit his ideas - because he really did have a lot of honest, true things to say about what is wrong with the USA. The real reason Bush cares about OBL is that his family has been doing business with them for years and letting that information out isn't part of the plan.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    30. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by initdeep · · Score: 1

      As a person who consults with his small business customers almost daily, I can tell you that you are wrong.

      I can cite examples from almost every organization i deal with where employess are using their CORPORATE email accounts for personal use.

      From the secretary who gets weather alerts and school closing delays sent to her email so she can go get little johnny from school, to the president who gets his travel updates and stock tips hourly, it happens.
      And it happens a LOT.

    31. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I suppose company's may be concerned that employee's may be "abusing" their privileges (waisting too much time on personal matters), but that is really a sorry excuse. If HR or any supervisor does not notice a lack of productivity coming from an employee, then these supervisors and bean-counters are not doing their job.

      What if an employee could produce more output, but isn't? Presumably, if I'm hiring someone, I'm not hiring them for their "B" game.

      I do however like the more open approach of your company (where it seems that just about anybody can read anybody else's email), it sounds rather Stallman-like (as in RSM) in the sense that he was against password protecting accounts, etc.

      Against password protecting accounts? What does he plan to use, skeleton keys?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    32. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      Why do you feel that OBL deserves any more credibility than any other politician/cult of personality? It's not a question of credibility, it's one of action. UBL fought in Afghanistan. He heads a terrorist organization--and has spent millions of his own money--financing attacks in Africa, Iraq, the Gulf, and yes, in America too.

      I mean, this IS a guy who has repeatedly worked WITH and even FOR the interests of the USA, whose people were trained on our dime and by our people. Actually, his whole organization was funded by supposed anti-drug money brokered by the Bush family. Repeatedly?

      UBL fought the Russians in Afghanistan as a mujahideen. At that time, the interests of the mujahideen and America coincided. We sent them weapons. After Afghanistan, UBL was ambivalent about America, and it was the entrance of Western (specifically American) troops into the Arabian peninsula the sealed the deal making him target us as a prime enemy of Islam. Your claims that he worked "WITH" or "FOR" the US are not in the slightest accurate. Please detail how the Bush family single-handedly funded al-Qaeda.

      Look how quick they killed Saddam, he had some truly cogent views even if he was responsible for attempted genocide, and they killed him as quick as they could and made him look like crap in order to discredit his ideas - because he really did have a lot of honest, true things to say about what is wrong with the USA. The real reason Bush cares about OBL is that his family has been doing business with them for years and letting that information out isn't part of the plan. Ah yes, the ever conspiratorial they. In answer to your question of how quickly he was killed, Saddam was captured in December of 2003. He was executed--after a public trial--THREE YEARS later. Wow, that conspiratorial they really rushed him to his grave!

      The GP mistakenly thought I was claiming he sympathized with UBL--I wasn't. You on the otherhand do seem sympathetic towards Saddam? They "made him look like crap." He was just a dissident with a lot of "honest, true things to say about what is wrong with the USA" even if he was SLIGHTLY responsible for "attempted genocide."

      Seriously, what a joke. Saddam was a dictator--a GENOCIDAL dictator who killed millions of his own citizens and started two major wars in which millions more died.

      He wasn't executed by the Iraqi Government because he had some hurtful things to say about the US, he was executed because he was a murderous tyrant.

      At this point it's barely worth talking to you, but please, if you can actually muster it together, explain how the REAL reason (ignoring oh, the embassy attacks, 90s WTC attack, 9/11 WTC/pentagon attack, and the USS Cole) Bush cares about UBL is .. whatever you're claiming it is.

      Sigh.
    33. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      Sorry if I was rude earlier, you turned out to be more reasonable than I had assumed. Thank you, always nice to hear ;-)

      2. Yes and no, naturally he does have specific goals (I doubt anyone thinks he is a terrorist for fun) his way of achieving those is thru terrorism, which is to "inspire terror" in a population so as to achieve their aim - (this is where I get the notion that its a way of messing with your head). I see where you're coming from. I just don't think UBL's conception of "inspiring terror" is letting a boss read an employees email.
    34. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      Against password protecting accounts? What does he plan to use, skeleton keys? Information wants to be free, remember? I believe the GP is referring to "the early days" when RMS encouraged everyone to use the same password so everybody could logon as anybody. No privacy, no problem.

      (Note, not saying I agree at all or advocate this!)
    35. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by unlametheweak · · Score: 1

      What if an employee could produce more output, but isn't? Presumably, if I'm hiring someone, I'm not hiring them for their "B" game. Agreed. The point being, like the expression "Know your customer", so it is IMHO, you should "Know your employee". If a Manager is so isolated from their employees that they feel the need to use HR to spy on them, then IMHO the managers aren't doing their job. In regards to an employee's supposed "B" game, then fire them if you don't like it. But from my experience, if a Manager is always on the lookout for an employee's "B" game, then chances are "A" game employees will notice this attitude and will either leave or just become too depressed to be productive. Attitude is everything, and if Management doesn't lead by example, but instead leads by intimidation, then this will be noticed (especially by "A"-game players). The most demotivating thing I have ever felt is an Employer who doesn't trust you; whether it be a personal distrust, or just through the bureaucracy of rules.

      The last job I quit my manager took me out to lunch (a rarity indeed!), and I explained to him that people are not inherently lazy (as he seemed to believe). People want to succeed; they just need the Leadership. Their is no Leadership in spying on your employees; their is just cynicism in this behaviour.

      In regards to the RSM comment:

      Against password protecting accounts? What does he plan to use, skeleton keys? He found it very cynical that people would lockout others from their accounts, and so he showed that he could crack them. The idea being that people (in a close-knit university environment at least) should be open and should not have anything to hide; and so I apply this example to the business world.
    36. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by unlametheweak · · Score: 1

      I think you get my point, but it's not so much an issue as "Information wants to be free", as it is an issue with openness and trust, especially with people that you work most intimately with. Granted I am talking about an ideal which may not always be practical.

      Best regards,

      UTW

    37. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by unlametheweak · · Score: 1
      The question is: what is "a LOT", and how significant is this to either the security of the company or the productivity of the worker? That being said, a CEO gets stock tips once an hour; does this person spend a minute looking at them or does he spend most of his day on eTrade? And for that matter is their CEO a salaried employee or does he get paid hourly? How much time does this CEO spend at home or on weekends doing work for the company?

      ...the secretary who gets weather alerts and school closing delays sent to her email so she can go get little johnny from school Again, how many hours a day does she spend reading whether reports, and how significant is this? In this regard I think a lot of companies would probably encourage this type of behaviour because it shows a concern for one's children. Some companies do understand that people have lives outside of work, and they try to accommodate. The problem is that many people (still) seem to think that you should disregard your families and treat your job as an all-encompassing religion.
    38. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      In regards to an employee's supposed "B" game, then fire them if you don't like it. But from my experience, if a Manager is always on the lookout for an employee's "B" game, then chances are "A" game employees will notice this attitude and will either leave or just become too depressed to be productive. Attitude is everything, and if Management doesn't lead by example, but instead leads by intimidation, then this will be noticed

      Sure, I agree with all of that. At the same time, a certain class of talented employee will fuck off given too much of a chance. And while I do speak from personal example :) it's not just me; this attitude is pretty common among us geeks who have a ton of projects we can be working on anyway. I mean, who here doesn't have a ton of projects already started and a ton of projects they'd like to start? And what better way to start them than to get paid for it? :)

      The last job I quit my manager took me out to lunch (a rarity indeed!), and I explained to him that people are not inherently lazy (as he seemed to believe). People want to succeed; they just need the Leadership. Their is no Leadership in spying on your employees; their is just cynicism in this behaviour.

      I think it's a "last refuge" sort of situation, but I don't think it's wrong.

      I agree that people are generally not inherently lazy and if you "manage" them properly (which is to say, give them what they need to work, including motivation) then they will generally work.

      The idea being that people (in a close-knit university environment at least) should be open and should not have anything to hide; and so I apply this example to the business world.

      It's a nice idea, but in reality people will try to take advantage of other people and you need privacy in order to protect any of your other rights. Even here in the US the constitution is considered to imply the right to privacy because all of the other rights are impossible to exercise meaningfully without it.

      For this reason it is critical to only spy people when it is absolutely necessary. It must be better than the alternative! But I maintain that the employer has the right to do so. One possible corollary is that top-down businesses are basically inequitable and that everyone's goal should be to work for a cooperative (or "solo" though no man and no company is an island unto itself) enterprise, democratic in nature, in which such things are unnecessary because they are based on valid personal and professional relationships, but it doesn't change my feelings about the rights of an employer with whom you have entered into an agreement with about terms of employment.

      With that said, I firmly believe in the employee's right to dick around an employer who is trying to fuck them over. But I also think that is also counterproductive in the long term; it makes far more sense to simply seek more gainful employment, which is a far more beneficial use of time and energy. By the same token, I agree that the employer's effort would better be spent fostering a positive work environment that is naturally conducive to successfully meeting the goals of the business.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    39. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by unlametheweak · · Score: 1

      The idea being that people (in a close-knit university environment at least) should be open and should not have anything to hide; and so I apply this example to the business world. It's a nice idea, but in reality people will try to take advantage of other people and you need privacy in order to protect any of your other rights.

      I think in general (with this opinion and others, we have very similar views.) As I've already told Moridineas;

      I think you get my point, but it's not so much an issue as "Information wants to be free", as it is an issue with openness and trust, especially with people that you work most intimately with. Granted I am talking about an ideal which may not always be practical. In this regard, ideals may not always be practical, but they are always something (for me at least) to strive towards.

      Best regards,

      UTW
    40. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are correct. A quote attributed to Ben Franklin states "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." And what liberty could be more essential than your right to privacy? That having been said, who can lay claim to any right on equipment that is purchased and maintained by another? They are paying for it, therefore they have the right. If you want private communications at work buy a Smartphone.

    41. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Dracophile · · Score: 1

      They have every right to see what is going on inside their own company

      Which is why there are cameras in the toilets, of course.
      --
      Athy, athier, athiest.
    42. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Cassius+Corodes · · Score: 1

      You are still hung up on the notion of what osama really believes, which in a previous post we have both ruled out as irrelevant. Every time you are delayed at the airport because of security concerns, every civil liberty you lose (and I'm not saying that is is a case of that for reasons I mentioned earlier), every security upgrade that costs the taxpayer is a victory for the terrorists. And unlike the downed buildings these are victories that we are handing to them. We are exaggerating their capability needlessly. If I was osama these are the victories I would be celebrating.

      --
      Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
    43. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      You are still hung up on the notion of what osama really believes, which in a previous post we have both ruled out as irrelevant. No, I said what was irrelevant was "Now whether or not osama really knows"

      I also, again, disagree wholeheartedly with everything you say in the rest of your post. You're not Osama, and you don't understand his motivations or wants in the slightest (nor have you been able to demonstrate one _single_ piece of evidence to back up your viewpoints), ergo, your statement that "these are the victories I would be celebrating" is just as irrelevant!

      Maybe I should attempt to coin a new Godwin's law--the first time someone claims that "this is what the terrorists want!" breaks the rule :p

      Anyway, at this point we're just talking past each other, but, cheers!
    44. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As you are a business owner, I support your right to know what your business resources are being used for.

      If you haven't traditionally done this in the past, I would believe the right thing to do is tell your staff that from this point on they should act as if their email can be read by third parties, but also that you don't mind reasonable personal use. Webmail is not hard to get for boss-resistent personal use at work, and let them know of that. But as a boss, you should have the right of knowing what's in the emails your staff are sending out if it compromises your business.

      If you're in a larger business, whether or not your emails get read by anyone else depends a lot on the individual morality of the sysadmins. In any case, anyone using work email should assume it is readable by a privileged member of staff.

    45. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Osama is just an invention of the CIA. Oops, have to run, the giant balloon is after me again.

    46. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Cassius+Corodes · · Score: 1

      Yes, its likely we are.

      When you quoted what you agreed with you forgot to add the "and cares" which was part of the original statement you agreed with.

      Now nowhere am I saying that this is what osama actually believes or is trying to achive (that is the "and cares" part), that is why I always say if I was osama. Hence your request for evidence confuses me? What am I trying to prove? That security is expensive?

      --
      Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
    47. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by mjwx · · Score: 1

      An employer has the right to monitor the infrastructure under their control, no one can argue this point but and employer also has obligations to the people they employ (eg. safe working conditions, wages paid on time and so on), one of these obligations should be the right to privacy under normal conditions (abnormal contritions are you are unreachable, have left the company or there is proof of wrong doing committed).

      As an admin is a small Australian IT business I will not comply with the instuction to look at another persons email without that the other person being present unless sufficent evidence of their wrong doing was already established at which point I would still insist this person was notified of my actions (they can fire me for not complying if they don't like it, I can always go back to bricklaying at $1 a brick). I'm thinking more along the lines of an employee who has committed fraud or corporate espionage which are far more likely than the extremely small risk of terrorism.

      I have twice been asked to look at another users mail box, the first time was an employee who recently left (amicably, for a better job) and I was asked to look for a job related email from a client. the second time was when a user was overseas and couldn't be reached (once again looking for a client email only sent to this person). I did notify this person by SMS and accessed their mail by changing their password and logging in normally as opposed to actually snooping.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    48. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Funny story - where I work there is a very liberal network use policy - you can use it how you like as long as your manager is happy with your work and you don't shut the network down.

      Nice attitude if you can find it. But most US employers immediately use the "We might get sued" canard to assert a right to total control.

      "Oh, my -- you could be shipping company secrets off-site. You could be embarrassing the company before our clients. You might be setting us up for a sexual harassment lawsuit because of your emails to the hottie who insisted the beaverboard be removed from her desk because "It keeps me too warm.'"

    49. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Invading privacy to stop them stealing is as wrong as breaking into their house to steal back whatever they took.

      If it's yours, it's not "stealing" to take it back.

      Legally you'd be in trouble for breaking in and, unless you could prove ownership, for "theft".

      However, on moral grounds, taking back your property is completely without fault. As long as you don't cause any more damage than necessary (which would get you into the area of revenge) I'd have to say that would be morally OK as well. The fact that the original thief makes it difficult for you to retrieve your property is on him.

      Far too many people trot out the rusty old "two wrongs" thing when it clearly leads to allowing the original wrong to continue. To leave things that way constitutes a second "wrong" in itself.

      Ob. car analogy:

      If you get a parking ticket for leaving your car overtime at a meter, most cities will allow the meter maid to give you a second (or third ...) ticket when they come by a couple of hours later. Otherwise people would take the first ticket at 9 a.m. (probably cheaper than all day in a perking lot) and leave the car there all day.

      On a moral plane, requiring the victim to leave his property with the thief simply encourages further theft and continues the injury to the original victim.

    50. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by MrNaz · · Score: 1

      I don't need your fascist support of my rights, I'm quite capable of looking out for myself.

      I don't, and never will, spy on my employees, no matter how much you try to convince me that it's in my interests.

      I trust my staff to look after my interests, because they know that I look after theirs. I help them when they need advances or loans, and pay them well in general. If they don't reciprocate, I show them the door. I don't need to spy or engage in odious practices to take care of my rights, the usual rules of civilised people work just fine.

      If my staff are looking for other work, then I have a staff relations problem that reading their email will not solve. If they are wasting time, then their KPIs will show it, and I'll deal with it as a performance issue.

      If they are selling what they need to sell, performing the duties they need to perform and reporting to me the things they need to report, then frankly, they can spend their spare time shagging Facebook freaks in the stock room for all I care.

      --
      I hate printers.
    51. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by MrNaz · · Score: 1

      I think you don't understand the "two wrongs" phrase.

      Entering someone's house without their permission and taking something, even if that thing is yours and you don't damage anything else, is wrong. It is an unauthorised exercise of force (property acquisition against the will of the possessor despite them not being the owner) that may work in the single case scenario, but the reason civil institutions exist is to arbiter these disputes. The net effect of everyone taking the law into their hands this way would be an escalation of force exerted. You'd take my widget, I'd come back with a friend and take it back, you'd come back with three to take it back back, I'd come back with a gun and take it back back back and so on as society descends into anarchy.

      In a civilised society, whoever possessed property can only be forced to give it up by the authority, if somebody else is the owner, the authority must be the one to collect it by force if necessary. Not Joe Schome with his baseball bat.

      I think your parking ticket analogy is bizarre. Please explain it, as I just don't get it.

      I am not requiring the victim to leave their property with the thief, I'm saying the victim should call the appropriate authority for assistance in recovering whatever item was stolen.

      --
      I hate printers.
    52. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Moridineas · · Score: 1
      My last reply--thanks for extended conversation--always pleasant when a slashdot conv goes more than a message or two without some terrible name calling or something!

      that is why I always say if I was osama. Hence your request for evidence confuses me? What am I trying to prove? That security is expensive? I don't really know what you're trying to prove, and my point about your statement is that "if I was osama" is basically irrelevant--you're not; your ideals, goals, and ideas of terror don't match up with him at all (that's a good thing!).

      So I take it as when you say something like "I bet UBL is cackling about western civil liberties allegedly being eroded!" I'm saying that doesn't make any sense. YOU might be cackling if YOU were the head of a terrorist organization, but UBL almost certainly is not!

    53. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by Cassius+Corodes · · Score: 1

      Ok but now with your last point you are putting words in my mouth. I _am_ saying that if I was osama I would be laughing, I _am_ not saying that osama is actually laughing. I never said I bet osama is laughing.

      I don't agree with you that its irrelevant. Just because osama doesn't care that we are shooting ourselves in the foot, doesn't make it any less painful.

      And thank you as well for a civil conversation.

      --
      Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
    54. Re:In Kiwi New Zealand by spazzmo · · Score: 1

      Ha ha. I love how you associate the country with the highest prison population in the western world, that is rapidly turning into the first western police state, with Freedom.

      --
      The cheese stands alone...
  2. really? by ILuvRamen · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I had no idea it was illegal now! Here in the US it's like if you don't own the computer cuz it's a work computer and you're on the work's connection, they can spy on you all you want. It seems completely logical to me and not even really an invasion of privacy cuz you should be ohhhh you know, DOING WORK lol.

    --
    Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
    1. Re:really? by JustShootMe · · Score: 1

      To me, this is just another manifestation of peoples' sense of entitlement.

      --
      For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
    2. Re:really? by QuantumG · · Score: 5, Insightful

      uz you should be ohhhh you know, DOING WORK lol. Talking to your union rep is doing work.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    3. Re:really? by JustShootMe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Then don't do it on company resources.

      In that situation, you should consider anything the company owns as being enemy territory - and consider it the same as talking to your union rep while the boss is in the room. Find some other way. There are plenty. Maybe take your laptop to a starbucks and send an email there.

      --
      For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
    4. Re:really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well technically its only illegal if you don't have clearly visible warnings, to users, that they may be monitored.

    5. Re:really? by Falladir · · Score: 1

      you should consider anything the company owns as being enemy territory
      That sounds like a crappy life. ...wait...actually, I already operate like that. But the enemy doesn't have the resources to surveil me. Hmmm.
    6. Re:really? by QuantumG · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You have a right to talk to your union rep on company resources... in many companies the union rep is paid by the company.

      Not everything in the world is the same as it is in the USA, kids.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    7. Re:really? by JustShootMe · · Score: 1

      Then use the phone or meet with him/her in person. There's no way to tell when an email is "privileged" or not.

      --
      For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
    8. Re:really? by compro01 · · Score: 1

      IMO, any union communications should be privileged automatically.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    9. Re:really? by JustShootMe · · Score: 1

      But there's no way to tell that until it's already read, and at that point the damage is done.

      --
      For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
    10. Re:really? by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      IF it were well explained before i was hired that they did this i would be ok with it because i could get a different job if i felt it too draconian. Companies need warning labels "will read your personal emails" "will search through your blog and facebook accounts" "will ask you to cover up our incompetence" and that sort of thing.

    11. Re:really? by QuantumG · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Which is why employers shouldn't be permitted to read employee email.

      Thanks for catching up with the rest of us.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    12. Re:really? by JustShootMe · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, which is why you shouldn't send sensitive personal emails over a corporate network.

      Thanks for being condescending.

      --
      For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
    13. Re:really? by JustShootMe · · Score: 0

      You're right, it isn't personal email. It is, however, email that could get you retaliated against, and you're stupid if you send it over the network, even if snooping was illegal. Like unionbusters have ever let the law stop them before.

      And in regards to that last sentence, I'm not going to dignify it with a response, considering it's nothing but an unwarranted insult.

      --
      For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
    14. Re:really? by wvmarle · · Score: 3, Informative

      As an employer actually I consider it a right to know what my employees are doing. When using company resources (telephone, e-mail, Internet, whatever) then of course an employee has a right to use it for personal matters, but that should be limited to the necessary.
      For example, if they have to call their bank, then it always always must be done during office hours. But calling their lover that can be done after office hours.
      For e-mail: most people these days have an e-mail address already. Personal things they should send using that e-mail address. Work things are for the company provided address.
      It would be scary for me to not be allowed to check on my employees, to see that they are doing what they are paid for. Scary to be never allowed to read their e-mails, when I deem necessary (hasn't happened yet but it's possible) - the most likely situation for me would occur when a customer says "I sent that to this employee", who happens to be on vacation then, upon which I'd start looking through their company mail box.
      An employee should know that this is company resource, and the company also should have a right to check/limit the usage.

    15. Re:really? by pete-classic · · Score: 1

      Yes, but surely not the work you're being paid to do.

      -Peter

    16. Re:really? by Vellmont · · Score: 1


      It seems completely logical to me and not even really an invasion of privacy cuz you should be ohhhh you know, DOING WORK

      So if I take 5 minutes out of my day to make a doctors appointment, it should be totally cool for my employer to listen in on all the details because I should be "doing work"? I don't know where you work, but most workplaces outside of Taco Bell have a tolerance for short entries of your non-work life into the work day.

      I'm not sure what the difference is if it involves a computer. It may even be legal for my employer to listen in on my calling for a doctors appt, but I wouldn't call it right or OK.

      --
      AccountKiller
    17. Re:really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're appealing to sense, this is about a specific law.

      Sense says, don't use employer resources to do anything you don't want your employer to know about.

      However I cannot see any benefit in legitimizing the employers bad behavior.

      I don't want my work place to be overly authoritarian and full of sharp edges. I'm aware that I grant them some authority by being employed, but at the same time I want that limited as much as possible.

    18. Re:really? by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      If you're in the US, most states mandate at least a couple of 10-minute breaks per day, and even in those states that don't, many employers allow for this. Other than that, do it on your lunch break, or before or after work. There's a lot of time to get on the calendar.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    19. Re:really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for reminding me why you have a massive freaks list. And why I'm one of them.

    20. Re:really? by Architect_sasyr · · Score: 2, Informative

      Ok as an Australian SysAdmin and after discussing this with a few of my Sydney based counter-parts today we've come to the following couple of points:

      1. A phone conversation may not be monitored or recorded without prior consent from both parties. This is exemplified in calling the local telco and being told that our calls may be recorded for training purposes (my ass) and if you don't like it tell them so
      2. Web traffic log generation is covered by the usage policy on the network. Providing they've signed off on this there is no invasion of privacy.
      3. This is the tricky one. Out here in Australia, as we understand it, Murder is a state-based crime whereas reading a mail message that is not yours counts as a federal crime (so yes you can go to gaol for longer if you read someone's mail as opposed to murdering them - WTF?!). So even if we have agreed to allow our SysAdmin permission to read our emails, should we wish to it can be taken to a federal agency and acted apon. It is thus illegal to read emails, regardless of what they have signed. If someone with more info on this than me could enlighten me further, be much appreciated.

      --
      Me failed English...
      FreeBSD over Linux. If my comments seem odd, this may explain...
    21. Re:really? by coaxial · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It would also be scary if you couldn't listen into their phone calls. But alas, that's already illegal. Why? The telephone privacy laws were passed in a much simpler time, when employees were viewed as people and partners, rather than "human resources."

    22. Re:really? by Jacques+Chester · · Score: 1

      So even if we have agreed to allow our SysAdmin permission to read our emails, should we wish to it can be taken to a federal agency and acted apon. It is thus illegal to read emails, regardless of what they have signed. If someone with more info on this than me could enlighten me further, be much appreciated.

      That's pretty much the problem they're trying to solve, as I found out by ringing the right office: http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=521210&cid=23060106

      --

      Classical Liberalism: All your base are belong to you.

    23. Re:really? by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      One can always here half of the conversation.
      Then there is still the practical problem that my staff is usually talking in Chinese... I can understand it only partly (enough to figure out what it's about) but when using Mandarin I'm lost :)
      But still I get a monthly overview of phone numbers dialed (those out of Hong Kong) in the phone bills.

    24. Re:really? by Architect_sasyr · · Score: 1

      It's so great that someone is willing to put in the phone miles to save my slack self doing it. I'm going to turn my spam filters off now and ask for a pay upgrade - damages for being forced to perform illegal operations ;)

      Well if you're ever here in Adelaide drop me a line. Reckon I owe you a beer for doing the hard yards for the prolongation of the discussion.

      Cheers

      --
      Me failed English...
      FreeBSD over Linux. If my comments seem odd, this may explain...
    25. Re:really? by rohan972 · · Score: 1

      Ok as an Australian SysAdmin and after discussing this with a few of my Sydney based counter-parts today we've come to the following couple of points:

      1. A phone conversation may not be monitored or recorded without prior consent from both parties.
      Commonly believed, but incorrect: http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lrc.nsf/pages/r98appA
      "At present a participant has a legal right to record conversations to which he or she is party. It is obvious that there are many completely legitimate reasons that such a person might have for so doing. To require that person to first obtain permission from the State on pain of criminal prosecution is a substantial interference with his or her legal rights."

      It is illegal for a 3rd party to record other people's conversations.
    26. Re:really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want privacy, use your cell phone, but if you expect your boss to pay the phone bill, you can expect your boss to be able to know what its for and what is being said.
      Your boss isn't some charity, its a business that has expenses. Try running a business, then see how casual you feel about employees spending YOUR money.

    27. Re:really? by jimbostyx · · Score: 1

      It's probably also illegal to retaliate against someone for what they said to their union representative and would certainly be compounded by the illegal wiretapping, so we're back to where we started.

      Assuming that workplaces operate like a police state is a terrible place to start from and fostering that kind of attitude leads to it's acceptance. I certainly don't hide what I'm doing at work but neither do I expect to have my secure communications intercepted. There is mutual trust on both sides and I see no reason why this can't be the same across the board if the law is there to provide the framework.

    28. Re:really? by xaxa · · Score: 1

      I remember when my school (11-18) gave everyone email addresses -- they said anything sent from them was equivalent to what was sent on official headed paper. That seemed a good analogy to me, so I've never used work email for anything other than work.

      With phones, until caller ID was introduced, you didn't know who was calling.

    29. Re:really? by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      Why not? Those emails are transferred over company networks, to company servers, via company domains, stored on company disks, and are related to your employment with that company (and all employers specify in their policies that they provide the emails for work reasons). For all intents and purposes, the company owns those emails.

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    30. Re:really? by rtb61 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The reason why employers are entitled to read employees email sent from the employers email server with the employers email address is because the employer is legally liable for the contents of the email. The employee as far as any receiver of the email is concerned sent that email of behalf of employer and the contents of that email reflect the intents of the employer.

      To avoid hassles, I simply opened up the email log file to all employees, so that any employee could peruse any other employees email, no secrets, it calmed down the contents of email significantly and saved me the disgusting chore of monitoring for legally dangerous content, and as I was in charge of the servers I had the initial legal liability for email contents until I could prove someone else was responsible.

      In this case patience will be a virtue as mobile internet connections get cheaper and 2nd notebooks get even cheaper, simply send and receive personal emails on your own personal hardware and do not use company infrastructure for personal communications. Now if your company attempts to ban personal communications hardware, or attempts to intercept and monitor personal communications on your own hardware, than use the unions to rip in up the employers and work to ensure management can ponder the error of their ways from the confines of a prison cell.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    31. Re:really? by LaskoVortex · · Score: 1

      It seems completely logical to me and not even really an invasion of privacy cuz you should be ohhhh you know, DOING WORK lol.

      So that's why you volunteer for a tax audit every year, cuz, u no, you did yur taxes RIGHT, ROFLOL.

      Oh, that's right, you don't volunteer for a tax audit every year because, you know, you're a hypocrite.

      --
      Just callin' it like I see it.
    32. Re:really? by Buchenskjoll · · Score: 1

      Where I work the employer has put in an infrastructure thingy called a toilet. Is it alright to snoop on what I'm doing out there then? Doesn't the boss have a right to know what I do with his infrastructure? Or do I have a right to privacy even when I'm at work?

      --
      -- Make America hate again!
    33. Re:really? by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      As a sysadmin, I consider it my right to know what *everyone*, right up to the highest levels of the company, is doing. Don't like it? That's a shame. You can have the sysadmin staff reading your email, or you can have no email at all. Your choice.

    34. Re:really? by MrKaos · · Score: 1
      As a member of the community actually I consider it a right to know what employers are doing. When using community resources (taxation benefits, lobbying, political donations, whatever) then of course an employer has a right to use it for business matters, but that should be limited to the necessary.

      For example, if they have to use an offshore bank, then it always always must be done with the approval of the taxation department. But calling their accountant that can be done with the scrutiny of a taxation official at all times.

      For e-mail: most business these days can archive all of their email transactions for inspection by ASIC (Australian Securities and Investments Commission). Business things they should send using that e-mail address. Personal things are for personal matters.

      It would be scary not to allow the relevant government departments inspect businesses to ensure they are doing the right thing by the community, to see that they are making the appropriate contributions to the community they operate in. Scary to be never allowed to inspect their affairs, when the community deems necessary (hasn't happened yet but it's possible) - the most likely situation for me would occur when a member of the public says "I got treated like this by this company", who happens to be a registered business, upon which relevant government departments start to audit the business's affairs. An employer should know that the community tolerates a certain level of mis-behaviour from the business community, and the community also should have a right to check that those behavioural standards are being adhered to in the strictest possible manner.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    35. Re:really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been reading all my bosses emails, and they make for entertaining reading. So I guess it's only fair that he should read mine. :P

    36. Re:really? by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      To me, this is just another manifestation of peoples' sense of entitlement.
      Or it could be that it's easier to wrestle rights away from people who don't know what their rights are. I've observed over the last 12 years all the fucked laws in Australia put into law in America, thank our John.W.Howard for a lot of the ideas that made its way into your PATRIOT act.

      Did you even care that your fore-fathers spilled their blood for the rights you enjoy. As an Australian I look with envy at the Bill of Rights that Americans enjoy and marvel at how they are pissed away by complete apathy.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    37. Re:really? by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      cuz you should be ohhhh you know, DOING WORK lol.
      What happens if you're trying to alert authorities to criminal behaviour anonymously? Like dumping toxic chemicals into a water supply or distributing stolen goods, there are reason the ordinary citizens have certain protections in place.
      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    38. Re:really? by electrictroy · · Score: 1

      "Spying" on me while I'm at the computer is no different than when my boss "spies" on me while I'm working the lathe, or "spies" on me when I'm loading the goods into shipping boxes.

      I'm on HIS property using HIS equipment and taking HIS money. He can spy on me all he wants in that situation.

      --
      The government is not your daddy. Its purpose is not to raid middle-class neighbors' wallets and give it to you.
    39. Re:really? by Mr3vil · · Score: 1

      I don't think this law is about letting employers check in on the help while at work, which is perfectly reasonable when employees are using a company resource. But the way this article is worded it seems to state that the law lets employers snoop on their help PERIOD be it at work or not. My employer has 0 reason and 0 need to know what I do off the clock. If I don't want my employer reading my e-mail and eavesdropping on my IM conversations, then I'll only do it at home, or use the IM client on my cell phone. However, it's unreasonable to afford my employer the priveledge of snooping on me at home or on my own private internet connections.

    40. Re:really? by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      I'm on HIS property using HIS equipment and taking HIS money. He can spy on me all he wants in that situation.
      Bullshit, those things are operating expenses and therefore can be claimed against the tax they pay. If it's the case that an employer can 'spy' on an employee (who is a member of the community whose tax pays for the infrastructure that business uses) then ALL the taxation benefits from operating an email system and a phone system should be withdrawn if an employer decides to spy on their employees.
      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    41. Re:really? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It would also be scary if you couldn't listen into their phone calls. But alas, that's already illegal. Why? The telephone privacy laws were passed in a much simpler time, when employees were viewed as people and partners, rather than "human resources."

      "This call may be recorded for quality control purposes" and putting an entry in the employee manual saying that calls are monitored to ensure that employees are doing their job is all you need to get around that, at least in the US.

      In California, only one party to a phone call need be informed that it is being recorded. As I read the law (obviously IANAL, whee) this may or may not apply to your employer listening in on your calls, but it does seem to indicate that at least in this state you can record a phone call without notifying the other party.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    42. Re:really? by electrictroy · · Score: 1

      I stand by my original statement. But this time I will make it personal:

      - If I hire you to mow my lawn,
      - using my lawnmower,
      - and I am paying you with my money...

      You better believe I'm going to damn well spy on you! And if you don't work ---if you choose to slackoff instead of work--- I'll fire you. *I* am the boss, and you are the employee. You are on MY property using MY equipment and taking MY money. I can spy on you all I want in that situation.

      --
      The government is not your daddy. Its purpose is not to raid middle-class neighbors' wallets and give it to you.
    43. Re:really? by Shajenko42 · · Score: 1

      In California, only one party to a phone call need be informed that it is being recorded. As I read the law (obviously IANAL, whee) this may or may not apply to your employer listening in on your calls, but it does seem to indicate that at least in this state you can record a phone call without notifying the other party.
      Just make sure that your employees don't call anyone in any other states. If they call someone in one of the states that requires all parties to be informed, guess what! You've just committed a crime.
    44. Re:really? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The handbook informs the employee that they may be recorded; I have been manually informed by callers that the call may be recorded in the past. I personally would not permit employees to use the phone system for non-emergency personal calls, because of liability. That is what your cellphone is for. I would also not permit employees to use my computers for their personal amusement. That is what their own computers are for. I however would not prevent them from bringing in their own computers (and cellphones!) unless the insurance company required it. You should be able to trust your employees at least that far. Ideally you would trust your employees to do whatever with whatever equipment without getting you in trouble, and I don't anticipate ever having a business large enough to require these restrictions. I do, however, find them to be entirely reasonable. Work time is not play time! You are not being paid to handle your personal shit and fuck off! If you don't like it, go to work for yourself, or shoot your congressman, or whatever, but don't expect someone to pay you to fuck off.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    45. Re:really? by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      I stand by my original statement.
      And I'll stand by mine BE PREPARED TO GIVE UP THE TAXATION BENEFITS ASSOCIATED WITH OPERATING EQUIPMENT USED TO SPY ON EMPLOYEES

      mow my lawn,- using my lawnmower,
      Except it's not a lawnmower it's a telecommunications device so don't try to over-simplify things, if you want to spy on me

      - don't ask me to work back

      - don't call me on my personal mobile

      - don't call me at home

      - don't email me at home

      - don't expect company business to be done on MY time

      - don't expect civility

      - don't expect anything but the minimum from me

      because you have already said that you don't trust me by wanting to spy on me so expect me to find every other way to get something out of you because you spy on me.

      You better believe I'm going to damn well spy on you!
      and don't be surprised when I sue you cause you allowed some freak in your organisation to harass me.

      But this time I will make it personal:
      but I wouldn't be surprised if that freak is you.

      But this time I will make it personal: if you don't work ---if you choose to slackoff instead of work--- I'll fire you. *I* am the boss, and you are the employee.
      In fact you seem to be the exact overbearing controlling little hitler that telecommunication intercept laws are designed to protect people against. I will be making sure that I write to my local MP to ensure no such laws get passed, I've done it before. I can assure you I will spend the maximum amount of my employers time lobbying against these proposals ever passing into law, and since it is against the law to spy on people at work - you better just get over it.

      But this time I will make it personal: You are on MY property using MY equipment and taking MY money. I can spy on you all I want in that situation.
      Taking your money eh? No, I am coming to your property to use your equipment to assist you generate a profit, if you decide to spy on me, I can't trust you, so don't trust me to keep all your dirty little secrets either, you had better be totally honest and above board, you better be squeaky clean or else I'm gonna be a good little soviet, because - my single testicular friend - if your email system can be used to spy on your employees then it can also be used to spy on your business.

      But this time I will make it personal:
      well thats just a sign of someone with a very weak argument, isn't it.
      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    46. Re:really? by Translation+Error · · Score: 1

      The difference I see between personal phone calls at work and emails from a company account is that the phone calls don't all have xxx@MyCompany.com prominently attached to them. I don't care if someone is using their account for personal messages, but I don't want our company's name on illegal, pornographic, or offensive content.

      --
      When someone says, "Any fool can see ..." they're usually exactly right.
    47. Re:really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Companies are only allowed to look at corporate email, and im. Personal email accounts, such as yahoo, hotmail, gmail, etc. aren't checked. The reason for this is that there are too many problems with people emailing sensitive information out of the company network, redistributing porn, and other activities that the company can be punished for. If you did the same thing on your personal email, the company can't be punished, just you. Any communication over company email is considered company property, and subject to inspection.

    48. Re:really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well maybe you should lose your job then.

      That is at the very least unethical, and completely unprofessional behaviour.

    49. Re:really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      No news here. The whole Brit conspiracy (England, Australia, Canada) have been furiously attempting to leapfrog each other and the US to get to the bottom of the heap wrt any kind of privacy. Once the winner is decided, it gets to go up against China and Arabia for the finals. It should be exciting. So far the US leads in the wireless wiretapping event, England in density of TV surveillance of public places. Australia is just playing catchup with this crap so as not to get disqualified for not trying hard enough.

      Watch for the US to try to steal a march on the rest using mission creep. What started as a scheme to use transponders to allow automated payment of tolls (neatly marking your location and time of passage to the second) has now been expanded to provide data for the "helpful" freeway signs that tell you how long to the airport, next major freeway junction, etc. It's pretty obvious how the system works, but for the unobservant, look for the arms stretching across the freeway with three or four miniature Yagi antennas -- usually with one pointing at each lane. They're picking up the toll transponders and tracking how long it takes for a given one or more to get from A to B.

      Of course, the information is "encrypted" (ooohhhh, doesn't that make your nuts warm just to say the word?), so "they won't be able to tell how fast an individual car is going to give out speeding tickets". Yeah, Really, the tooth fairy signed an affidavit assuring me this was true. Within 24 months, you'll be required to have a wireless printer on the front seat so you can stop at the police station on the way home to pay the ticket(s) you were just issued.

      Any programmers in the congregation who would require more than five minutes to write code to disable the encryption and instead generate full details on the transponder owner, including a list of priors, please report immediately to Conference Room A for beginning classes in your new position with the in-house janitorial force.

      In case you don't believe this, go to the CBS News website for the San Francisco Bay Area and look it up on the archived video from the "Good Question" segment from the 11pm news. Naturally only step one of the mission creep and its implementation is laid out in the segment. Rest to follow, after it's been revealed by a whistleblower.

      And I'm certain you can all predict the standard excuse -- We had an amber alert and simply used the decoded data to follow the suspected vehicle to where the nasty perp was apprehended. Now please go on your way with any bullshit arguments about how the safety of one child in the US trumps everyone else's right to be free from real-time surveillance anywhere in the land of the free and the home of the unwitting.

    50. Re:really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It would be scary for me to not be allowed to check on my employees, to see that they are doing what they are paid for.

      It would be scary to work for someone like you who can't trust anyone. Since I leave my purse (except for my wallet) hanging on a company-owned hook on the back of the company-owned door to my company-owned office while I go to the company-owned cafeteria for a snack (on my company-provided break), I'd have to assume you also reserve the right to snoop through my purse while I'm gone.

      From "The Rose":

      "It's the one afraid of being taken who never learns to give."

    51. Re:really? by missing_boy · · Score: 1

      Do your employees have access to your email - can they read it to make sure that you are making decisions that are in their best interest?

    52. Re:really? by electrictroy · · Score: 1

      The surest sign of a weak debater is somone who has to chop, cut, and rewrite the previous person's comments. That's *distortion* not honesty.

      >>>>>"You are on MY property using MY equipment and taking MY money. I can spy on you all I want in that situation."
      >>>
      >>>"No, I am coming to your property to use your equipment to assist you generate a profit, if you decide to spy on me, I can't trust you"

      Profit??? You're mowing my fucking lawn. There's no profit in that... you're just doing me a service. ----- And if you don't like my spying on you, to make sure you are working to cut the grass, rather than sleeping, too bad!!! You're fired sonny. I'll hire someone who actually works when I pay them.

      Do the job, or get the hell out. I'm not paying you to sit on your ass all day when you're supposed to be mowing my lawn.

      --
      The government is not your daddy. Its purpose is not to raid middle-class neighbors' wallets and give it to you.
    53. Re:really? by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      The surest sign of a weak debater is somone who has to chop, cut, and rewrite the previous person's comments.
      Well someone decided to make it personal, that doesn't just make you a loser it makes you a sore loser. Since you can't stay on topic I think I'll chop your "arguments" up a little more. Remember this statement you made;

      But this time I will make it personal:
      If you can't take it don't make it personal, obviously someone has lost a lot of sleep over this, considering your reply I think you have the wit of a blunt side of an axe.

      That's *distortion* not honesty.
      Spoken like a true clueless conservative. I've only just begun to chop your inane arguments up, you want to talk about honesty while you try to oversimplify an argument and take it off topic, honestly it's like clubbing someone to death with a foam club, we are talking about telecommunication intercepts, not lawn mowers.

      Profit??? You're mowing my fucking lawn. There's no profit in that... you're just doing me a service.
      Spoken like someone who has never run a business. First rule of business WIIFM, if I can't generate a profit doing something for someone why would I do it, no-one does something for nothing.

      And if you don't like my spying on you, to make sure you are working to cut the grass, rather than sleeping, too bad!!! You're fired sonny. I'll hire someone who actually works when I pay them.
      Honestly you don't know anything about business do you sonny you've only ever hired someone to cut the grass ------ And they charged you extra cause you sat there and watched them ----- but you didn't know that did you. They did it cause they knew what you and I know you are,,, ZIIIG-HEIILL.

      Do the job, or get the hell out. I'm not paying you to sit on your ass all day when you're supposed to be
      My company would never do any business with dickhead like you, your the type of 'customer' that get referred to my competitors or charged at three time the rate of all the other clients. Sure it might be useful to spy on my charges but there are governance and liability issues uncovered if legislation like this goes through which could cost business significant amounts of money. My business is not a domestic spying arm of the government, of course you wouldn't understand these issues would you sonny. Is that chopped up, cut, and rewrote enough for you?

      mowing my lawn.
      And while your lack of an argument has been entertaining honestly I think it's time for you to get off my lawn, sonny.
      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    54. Re:really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spoken like a fawning, wretched lickspittle; you truly are a disgusting piece of shit, electrictroy.

  3. Oh where by Sylos · · Score: 1

    Oh where can I find a place where my emails *won't* get snooped on?(barring of course, encryption).

    --
    'Number-memorizing Chinese people.'-Anon
    1. Re:Oh where by daranz · · Score: 2, Funny

      At home, on a LAN separate from the Internet.

      --
      This is a sig. It is appended to the end of comments I post.
    2. Re:Oh where by jobst · · Score: 2, Funny

      make yourself a linux box not connected to the internet with two accounts, send an email from one account to the other ... make sure you close the blinds so no person can read your screen and keyboard.

      --
      to code or not to code, that is the question.
    3. Re:Oh where by JustShootMe · · Score: 2, Funny

      Oh, but it you're using a CRT, make sure you're in a faraday cage too. And I'm not sure what they can do as far as listening on LCD displays, but I'm sure there's something.

      --
      For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
    4. Re:Oh where by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      You can also read keypresses on wireless AND wired keyboards from a decent distance.

    5. Re:Oh where by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 1

      And I'm not sure what they can do as far as listening on LCD displays

      Not sure how accurate it is, but there's a lovely bit of discussion about hacking a laptop remotely via RF during the jail scene of Cryptonomicon. At least enough for me to wonder if it wouldn't work in the ideal circumstances described there.

      I started thinking about that the first time I heard an AM radio tuned to an SDS 930's M register. I figured -- someday some spook would be able to parse that noise.

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    6. Re:Oh where by aadvancedGIR · · Score: 1

      LCD doesn't make a difference, as the actual target is usualy the VGA cable, not the screen itself.

    7. Re:Oh where by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      LCD doesn't make a difference, as the actual target is usualy the VGA cable, not the screen itself.

      I don't know where you got that idea, but you are 100% wrong.

      CRTs are ideal targets for electronic surveillance because they produce multiple strong fields. Most significantly, the driver transistors (for the electron guns) are little radio beacons, and their signal is carried on the very strong output from the system which aims them. This provides convenient vertical and horizontal refresh signals which can be picked up from VERY long distances.

      LCDs are more complicated but as the cute little description in Cryptonomicon states, they are still refreshed much like a CRT. Someday perhaps we'll have displays with some VRAM attached to the back of them and you update them by writing to memory, but today the signal is being spewed across to the panel in much the same way it always has. Even if you have an external panel and are using a digital DVI signal, at some point that's broken down to a signal that can be dealt with at the panel level. THIS is what you can most conveniently pick up from an LCD in most cases.

      It's also possible to read keyboards and other noisy devices remotely. Every time a key is released current flow stops and some distinctive radio noise is produced; it's different for each key. Capture enough traffic and perform a statistical analysis and you can pretty much figure it out without even being able to ever look at the keyboard. This is of course not easy, but if you are willing to spend an essentially unlimited amount of taxpayer money on the problem (this is easy because you simply don't tell them, and blame it on an eighty dollar hammer or something) then it's quite solvable.

      I'm no expert in the field or anything, but cables are usually well-shielded and are not the noisiest thing around, ESPECIALLY in the case of a CRT.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:Oh where by aadvancedGIR · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I didn't have that knowledge, only a demonstration that did not used synchronisation, but a knot used to tune from one screen to another (just like a FM radio receiver) and the explanation "our targets usualy shield their monitor, but it's hard to efficiently shield the cable, and 1)it's easy to read, 2)you can read it from any direction".

    9. Re:Oh where by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The cable approach is not useless; it's just that most monitors are not that well shielded (the only way to shield the monitor from TEMPEST spying is to surround it in a Faraday cage, which means you're looking at it through a metal screen! the lead in the screen stops the X-Rays, not the EMF!) and that the signal coming from a CRT is dramatically stronger than the signal coming from a VGA cable. In the case of LCDs, the cable snooping method might actually be more useful.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  4. Sound stupid to me.... by billy901 · · Score: 1

    Who's going to be a terrorist? The little frontline technician who works on the phone all day? Or the guy who doesn't do any work and receives money from his relatives in a strange country who make money by making bombs? If your employer has any reason to snoop in on you, they shouldn't have hired you or they should ask you in person.

    --
    Please visit http://www.mederbil.com/ i7, GTX 275, 4 1TB Caviar Green in RAID 0+1 array, EVGA X58 3X SLI Board, Silver
    1. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by JustShootMe · · Score: 1

      That's ridiculous. If your employer has any reason to snoop on you, they should just snoop on you. They may not have known about things when you were hired, and why should they be forced to ask you in person instead of finding the information on computers and network equipment that they own?

      There is no entitlement when it comes to work equipment. If you don't like it, find a place that doesn't do it. And if every place does it, nothing stopping you from building your own corporation that doesn't. That's the beauty of free enterprise.

      --
      For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
    2. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by billy901 · · Score: 1

      I Enjoy living in Canada for a reason. They don't do that here. My mother is a teacher and does not get this done to her. I fix computer and I have to send lots of emails, and my boss is not allowed to do this.

      --
      Please visit http://www.mederbil.com/ i7, GTX 275, 4 1TB Caviar Green in RAID 0+1 array, EVGA X58 3X SLI Board, Silver
    3. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by holophrastic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Um, hi. My name is Bryan. I run a business in Canada. It's my business and I'm accountable for everything that it does -- as an officer of the corporation. And yeah, you'd better believe that I read my employees' e-mails. How on Earth would you expect me to be accountable for something that I don't know is occurring? There are plenty of ways to get an e-mail address. The one that I give to my employee is for business, it's a convenient tool.

      And it's no different than the paper "inbox" on their desk -- which is, of course, also owned by me, both the box and the desk itself. And the fact that it's clean.

    4. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      I worked at one place where I was pretty sure that one of their standard practices was pointless. (Not bad, just useless.) I emailed a question about it to a friend with more specialized knowledge, but because I was doing it from work, I used my gmail account. Nothing on that subject when through the company's mail servers. Not that they were snooping, but they certainly could have if they'd wanted to, and it was the type of place where I'd expect it. (A corporate culture of micro-management and second-guessing tends to make me expect things like that.)

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    5. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by billy901 · · Score: 1

      It's okay to be snooping in on certain emails. Email regarding business makes sense, but not email regarding personal issues. A lot of people use their business email as their personal email as well. But if people are sending emails to co-workers via the business address, and the boss is viewing these emails, it is a violation of their privacy. Plus when you're reading their emails, you start to look like a perverted freak.

      --
      Please visit http://www.mederbil.com/ i7, GTX 275, 4 1TB Caviar Green in RAID 0+1 array, EVGA X58 3X SLI Board, Silver
    6. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I fix computer I make fire! Fire good!
    7. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by JustShootMe · · Score: 1

      They could have been monitoring the network too.

      They likely were not as it's a lot of trouble, but don't assume that gmail is "safe".

      I know where I work there is a packet capturing machine. I don't know what they're using it for, but I know it's there. And gmail is not safe from that.

      --
      For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
    8. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by JustShootMe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Bah. You should not be sending personal emails through a business address for exactly this reason. It's not the fault of the business for snooping, but the fault of the employee for being stupid.

      --
      For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
    9. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by DustyShadow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You should use https://www.gmail.com for a secure connection

    10. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      If I'd been working for a company like that, I'd have waited until I went home and emailed from there. As it was, I've no reason to think there was any systematic snooping going on, it was just the corporate culture I mentioned above that made me want to be cautious. I didn't expect any packet sniffing, but snooping around the mail spool wouldn't have surprised me one bit.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    11. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by JustShootMe · · Score: 1

      Ok. Doesn't stop keyloggers though.

      --
      For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
    12. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by JustShootMe · · Score: 1

      Even though I know that, I use gmail anyway. The policy is very loose, and I think it's there to aid in diagnosing or tracking down when something goes seriously out of whack. I'm not worried about it. But I know they *can*.

      --
      For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
    13. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by setagllib · · Score: 2, Funny

      Hey, take it easy on the MCSE :)

      --
      Sam ty sig.
    14. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by CodeBuster · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Then you take out your trusty knoppix CD and boot the machine into a Linux session before connecting to your g-mail account. Unless they are monitoring the computer at the hardware level (unlikely) then you are secure in the knowledge that that particular communication will remain private.

    15. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by JustShootMe · · Score: 1

      For the truly paranoid corporation, there are ways around that too. No, they can't capture your gmail session, but they can come around and try to figure out why the hell your system just went down. OR they could just be using a hardware keylogger... and when it boots back into windows it dumps everything it gathered while in linux...

      We're admittedly getting into the realms of what a truly determined company could do and most are not truly determined. But I know in at least one company I worked at if I'd booted into Linux I would probably have gotten fired.

      --
      For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
    16. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Use a different keyboard mapping. The hardware keylogger will look like it's spewing rubbish. Of course the last three steps are pretty much completely unnecessary when you can just use your own device and bypass company hardware entirely. (Smart phone, pda, laptop, etc.)

    17. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by Martin+Blank · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I go to great lengths to keep my work and personal lives separate. If work wants to get in touch with me when I'm not on-site, they can call my company-issued Blackberry. Aside from HR, which is not allowed to pass around my contact information, and my manager, who I trust to not pass around the information I allow to him, no one has my home phone number, and no one at all has my personal cell number.

      If my friends or family want to get in touch with me when I'm at work, they can call me on my personal cell phone. If they want to send an note, they can use my Gmail account. They don't get my work phone numbers or e-mail address.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    18. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by Moridineas · · Score: 1
      Wow, so within the span of two posts you go from

      I Enjoy living in Canada for a reason. They don't do that here. .. my boss is not allowed to do this. to:

      It's okay to be snooping in on certain emails That seems to be a direct contradiction!
    19. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by JustShootMe · · Score: 2, Informative

      I agree with this. The lines are a little more blurry - they have my cell and home numbers. But if someone calls it and it's not an emergency they get yelled at. My boss even told me, if I'm not on call, I don't have to take any work calls after hours - *especially* because my phone is not company issued.

      I'm never on call, at least for now.

      In principle, though, I'm with you. If the site isn't down in such a way that I'm the only one that can fix it - they can leave me alone, and they know it.

      --
      For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
    20. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by Oblong_Cheese · · Score: 1

      There are devices that exist which can record everything that goes on inside an SSL/TLS session. examples: http://www.breach.com/products/breachview-ssl.html

    21. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by dbIII · · Score: 1

      98% of all the enquiries I get about "lost" emails are personal ones, and about 75% of those are really people wondering why they haven't got a reply yet to some chain letter or joke. It isn't just a waste of one employee's time it is also yet another source of unpaid overtime for sysadmins along with the usual stuff like employees deleting MS Office so they have more room for mp3's of what is really elevator music. We don't want to deal with other people scheduling complicated love lives on work machines or resources having to be upgraded due to digital rubbish.

    22. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by witherstaff · · Score: 1

      You could try to just use the onboard keyboard and click with the mouse. Although it's hard to type fast (Ijust typed that using one), and doesn't defeat potential screen grabbing software.

    23. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by LLKrisJ · · Score: 1

      This is a bit stupid if you don't mind me saying. Single employees that do some wrong stuff in the workplace can still be held accountable for their own actions without you being negatively implicated in any way...

      Furthermore, the whole "it is my infrastructure so I can do whatever the bloody hell I please" argument also doesn't make much sense. My ISP and phone provider also own their infrastructure, so I guess that makes it ok for them to read all my email and listen to all my conversations too? Because god forbid, I might be a bomb packing terrorist and/or a porn smuggler with a penchant for young boys and I might use their infrastructure for something malicious and they would be held accountable... Give me a break.

      Here in Europe, Belgium in particular, it is a crime to read someone elses paper mail and or electronic communications and thank god for that.

      Why the need to read and snoop on everything without the persons consent? What makes this more effective than storing certain types of communication and looking into the logs if there is an actual and founded suspicion that someone is doing something wrong?

    24. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by jimbostyx · · Score: 1

      So what if your employer has an SSL proxy installed and controls the certificate store on your workstation? How about screen capture software, keyloggers, etc.? Face it, if you control the computer then you have absolute power to snoop.

    25. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      Any corporation where you need to go that far just to evade their network security will fire you for the usage of unauthorised software at this point, because I can guarantee it's in a massive "computer use policy" somewhere.

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    26. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by rohan972 · · Score: 1

      Furthermore, the whole "it is my infrastructure so I can do whatever the bloody hell I please" argument also doesn't make much sense. My ISP and phone provider also own their infrastructure, so I guess that makes it ok for them to read all my email and listen to all my conversations too?
      There is a significant difference. You are paying your ISP to provide a service, that is your email address. Sure, they own the domain, but you are paying them for the email address, you have a right to it. At work, you are effectively being paid to use your employers email, even if one is assigned to you by name. It is similar to claim that letters you write on company letterhead could be private. They are not. A work email identifies your communication as being from that business, just as letterhead does. There is no reasonable right to privacy in this case, use your own equipment and email address if you want that.

      Here in Europe, Belgium in particular, it is a crime to read someone elses paper mail and or electronic communications and thank god for that.
      If I hire someone to communicate on my behalf, it is not their communications, it is mine. Nobody is suggesting they could intercept your mail/email at home.
    27. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      That's ridiculous. If your employer has any reason to snoop on you, they should just snoop on you.
      What about the organisational psychopath, should they be allowed to snoop on your emails to find new ways to fuck with you, what about the creepy manager who wants to have sex with the bored receptionist whose job it is to provide an attractive face to clients who walk in the door.

      instead of finding the information on computers and network equipment that they own?
      Well I guess they won't mind giving up any taxation benefits they might receive for depreciation on that equipment then will they, and from memory the internet is a public network. I don't expect my email communications to be legally monitored by sending them from a work address any more than I would expect a letter to be legally opened and inspected if I send it from company mailbox, or my telephone call to be legally intercepted because I make it to or from a company phone. So I guess the company shouldn't be surprised when their ISP gets paid by their competitors to monitor said companies email for commercial in-confidence emails because all of a sudden the legal protections against such activities have just disappeared.

      It's brain dead because all it does is open the door for nefarious activity to be committed by people who can think of how it could be abused, any employee who spends too much time doing personal communications from work will just have their effectiveness drop off and quality employers will have management mechanisms to measure effectiveness - even if they are crude, it's the employee's responsibility to raise their effectiveness or loose their job or pay.

      This justification that the 'tewworist' will somehow get us is getting waaaaay out of hand, personally I'd rather take the risk of being blown up and live the bulk of my life free. And what about the question of liability if an employer has evidence of 'tewworist' motivations and doesn't act on them? Do I suddenly have to police my employee's emails because I'm liable for terrorist actions organised on my infrastructure, what about coded messages - am I responsible for decoding them too? That's the implications of a free society.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    28. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      um, you aren't sending personal e-mails via your business account. You are sending useless business e-mails. Anything you send via your business account is business -- you're just wasting resources if the content isn't business related.

      And if you thing monitoring people who work for you is perverted, you've never run a business. Everyone needs babysitting for absolutely everything. People are incompetant, people don't care, and people don't know what it is that you want them to do.

      Being accountable, both practically and legally, for a business means knowing everything that's going on. Otherwise you're screwed.

      Read your employees' e-mails. You'll find out.

    29. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      You've got each of your points incomplete. First, you can hold employees accountable for their actions, yes. But you can't hold them accountable for the consequenses of their actions. If they drop a glass, you can make them pay for the glass. If a client steps in it, and either sues your business or just stops being your client, you can't hold the employee accountable for the client's expected revenue, nor for their suit. Not only do most countries protect employees in this way, but your employees aren't likely to be able to afford such penalties in the first place.

      Your ISP is very different for a few reasons. The first reason that your ISP can't read your e-mail involves many telecom laws. They actually don't want to be responsible for your content because they don't have the personnel -- yet. That's change in the next few decades. Hey, down south (the usa) it's happening now, where the FCC wants ISPs to be responsible for piracy via their networks. But your ISP doesn't own you. And hence their ownership of your content is temporary at best. I do own my employees, by the very definition of the word. And all of the content that they produce, and all of their actions, are under my guise. If my employee screws up, my client sues me, not them. They wear my corporate logo, use my corporate resources, and represent me in every way.

      Finally, here in Canada, as in Belgium, it is also a crime to read someone else's paper mail. But you've got to read the fine print. The definition of "someone else's mail" is actually "mail addressed to someone else". When you address an envelope, the first line is not part of the address. "Mr. George Miller" is no different than "Human Resources" or "The Boogey-Man". It's the address that counts. The law actually allows anyone residing at the same address to read that paper mail. So yes, you can read your children's mail, or the mail of anyone else at the same "mailing address" -- which, as I've been saying, does not include their name.

      For your last point. . .because suspicion is often too late. And how are you going to get that suspicion if you don't look for it? Where else are you going to look? Daily polygraph tests? Daily drug tests? Daily e-mail tests.

    30. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by Ernesto+Alvarez · · Score: 1

      It won't look like rubbish. It will look like the product of a substitution cipher, that can be easily cracked by anyone with some wits and a basic notion of frequency analysis.

    31. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like bad management to me.. though may not specifically apply to your case (as i don't know what that is), but in general:

      A) You have no trust between your employees and yourself
      B) You are relying on other peoples emails to know whats going on in your own business

      If it is information that you require from their emails, you should be instructing your staff to Cc you in on it and not having to trawl through their email for it. If they can't manage that then why are they still working for you?

      An email is a private conversation between two people, whether or not it is on the work email account, it is rude, immoral and not to mention entirely unnecessary to listen in without the permission of BOTH of those parties.

      Just because you own a telephone does not mean you should be able to eavesdrop on any conversation made on it, as it also infringes upon another persons right to privacy (not just your employee), who may not be aware of your 'big brother' habits and expect their email to only be read by the person they sent it to.

    32. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      It's not that I own the telephone. I own the conversation. It's my business, my employee, and my client. They are talking about my product, according to the guidelines that I've set out for each of them. And I'm the only one that goes down in flames if either of them says something that they shouldn't. They don't have to Cc me on the e-mails because I can do that automatically on the back-end. It's easier for everyone that way.

      Big Brother? We ain't brothers. I don't pay my brothers. Well, this week I'm paying my brother-in-law to help him buy a house. But that doesn't count.

      Pick an allusion that represents the appropriate relationship. I own every part of what that e-mail conversation is supposed to be about. I own the product being discussed, the employee on my side, and the client relationship as a whole.

      If you borrow my car, and speed in excess of 50Km/h over the limit, not only is there a huge fine to the driver, but the car is instantly and immediately impounded on the spot. Same goes for business. You can lose a client in an instant.

      It's all mine, and I'm being generous in offering you a job, and paying you what you think you're worth to do it. You aren't doing any favours for me.

      It's my e-mail, and not yours. All you've done is typed it for me, from the training that I gave to you, about the product that I've shown to you. If my secretary types a letter, it's not hers, it's mine. You'd let me read over the letter that she types for me from my dictation. The e-mails that my employees send to clients are dictated, but they are trained just the same. They represent absolutely nothing more than the training.

      That's the whole point of hiring employees (as opposed to partners). It's to take on the tasks for which I do not have the time. The best thing they can do is do it exactly the way I used to do them. These aren't tasks that can be improved upon.

      Believe me when I tell you that having built this company from nothing, I've done every job at least a dozen times. I don't hire employees to do them better. I partner with associates for that. I contract suppliers for that. When it comes to employees, I just hope that they come close to what I can do. After-all, they are working without anywhere near the kind of passion that a founder would have. And they have no security in working for someone else. And I jeopardize my business with each subsequent employee.

      You'd better believe it's mine. Every last little piece of it. That's called passion, and that's called pride. I want to see you spend twenty inventing a car, and then let someone else go joy-riding in it. This is not only my passion, and the last twenty years of my life, and every sacrifice I've ever made, it's also the next many decades of my life, as well as my legacy. This beats the children that I don't have precisely because of the sacrifices I've had to make.

      And I'm incredibly proud of myself for being capable of such dedication -- there was a time when didn't know I had it in me.

    33. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'Big Brother' relates to the book 1984.. a good read..

      Anyway, you do not own your employees or their conversations.. and this was about when they are not talking about your business or your products and sending emails of a personal nature which are not on behalf of your company or even related to it...

      Sure you can continuously tell your staff not to send anything personal via their work emails.. but it still should not give you the right to read them behind their backs.. tell them to stop.. fire them or whatever.. just don't read them.

      However if in your case you are up front, with the staff knowing that you are doing this and perhaps allow them access to gmail or something else for personal matters then this isn't really a problem and they can decide to work elsewhere if they don't like it... although it does sound a bit like you are micro-managing too much and not trusting enough in your employees (although i haven't met them so it could be warranted).

      But I do take some issue with your attitude, you are not being generous in giving people a job... You are asking for their help in making you money and rewarding them financially for doing so..

      The way you have written it sounds like a superiority complex as it should be a 2 way relationship and both should have respect for each other and their rights, both to reasonable levels of privacy as well as doing the job as well as they are able to.

    34. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      I've read 1984, circa 1984, and my point remains. Your government is composed of your equals -- the whole by the people for the people crap. That's very different than an employee-employer relationship. Incidentally, there are four lights.

      I most certainly do own the business conversations that my employees have. And that's simply defined as the conversations they have during working hours. Just like if they invent a cure for cancer in my hot-dog store, it's mine too. Welcome to the fun.

      And no, they aren't supposed to have personal e-mail during their working hours. I'm paying them for that time. No I don't sit and stop them from taking the odd personal telephone call. And no I don't stop them from sending/receiving the odd personal e-mail. But yeah, I get to listen in on the call that I'm paying for, and on the e-mail that I'm paying for. We're actually talking here about a telephone call that may be costing me a few cents. Or an e-mail that is a part of my e-mail system that costs me a few cents. I'm actually paying for that personal communication. The one that isn't supposed to exist on my time. I've purchased it, am paying for it, and not only did I not ask for it, but it was sold to me without my permission. Yes I can read it.

      And I know that just about every employee wants to be trusted in that whole "2-way relationship" crap. But that's not for employees. That's for partners. That's the difference. You've got to admin that a partner gets treated better than an employee. So think about how you'd treat a partner -- presumably as an equal, or comperable to yourself -- and now decide how to treat an employee as a lesser contributor.

      And keep in mind, relative to a partner, that employee hasn't invested any money. Isn't accountable for major screw-ups. Has a somewhat set number of hours. Is legally protected from all kinds of things. Outside of sales staff doesn't bring in any business. Outside of some staff doesn't do anything revenue-generated. Most never see clients. None make any top-level executive decisions. Few are even responsible for other personnel. Any one of them can leave at a moment's notice in any number of ways. Any one of them can demand a raise at any time. And every one of them is a potential security threat.

      A partner has none of that. So you've got to be treating your employees differently than your partners. Throw in associates, investors, suppliers, and contractors, and you'll begin to see where employees fall on the spectrum.

      You say that I'm not treating my employees as well as I should. I say that you aren't treating your partners any better than your employees. I value my partners more.

    35. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was referring to the surveillance aspects of the book.. and it doesn't make it any better if you replace government with corporation, it is an unpleasant environment for anyone to know that they are currently be being spied upon and anything they ever say/do or think may be used against them by a vindictive boss.

      I disagree that you own your employee's conversations as they may not be about your business even though they are in business hours..

      For an example.. say an employee for some reason (mobile broken or whatever) had a call from their doctor to their work phone to provide important test results.. and unaware of what this call was about beforehand you were listening in on their conversation and overhear that they had contracted a disease.

      Do you really think this is correct behavior and appropriate for you to do? Are you not invading their privacy by doing this? It would be the same if in the future doctors started emailing results to clients and you were to look at them.

      In any business the employees are generally more important than you seem to think, they do the work that actually earns you the money.. If you treat them with the respect they deserve (as individuals.. people not just resources) then they will be happier and far more productive, they won't ask for raises as often and will stay at your workplace for longer reducing overall costs (hiring/firing/training) of your business.

      If you constantly look over their shoulders and treat them as lessor subjects then yes.. they will never stay long enough or work hard enough to become valuables members of your team and you will be stuck having to watch every single thing they do forever.

    36. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      there is a huge difference between government surveillance and corporation. Your government takes money from you. Your corporation gives money to you. I think that's a huge difference as it represents a complete reversal.

      And yes, I own the conversation that happens during business hours. I have to. Any work they do during those hours is mine, even if it's got nothing to do with my product. If they decide to sell tube socks by phone during their work hours, those tube socks profit become mine. If they take the use the time during which I'm paying them to do other business, it too is mine. But practically, how are you going to decide which conversations are business and which are not without simply saying that during work hours it's a work conversation? You're not going to be able to draw any other sort of line.

      Next. The doctor. If their mobile breaks, and they want to take the day off, hey that's one thing. If their doctor calls ME, my number, my office, and my receptionist answers, and he gives her the results of her test, you'd better believe that's a violation of MY time and resources. A misappropriation if you will. Her doctor has no right to do that. And she has no right to ask him to do so.

      Now of course, I'm not going to be that terrible and tell anyone that their doctor can't call them at work. But that's me being nice. And I'm damned sick and tired of people thinking that they have the right to my being nice. They don't. That's up to me. And if I'm listening to the call, and I hear it's her doctor, and I believe it, then I can choose to hang up. I can also choose to be her friend. Again, my choice, not hers. My phone.

      I am not invading their privacy. They are invading my work space by doing anything personal on my time. Whether or not I allow them to invade my business in that minor way, and whether or not I penalize them for it is another matter -- again, at my discretion. That doesn't mean I'm against them. That means it's my choice to go either way.

      And again, lots of people say that if you treat employees better, then they'll work better. If I triple their salary, they'll work better too. If I give them a quarter of the work-load, they'll work better too. Getting them to work better is not the point. There are only three points.

      The first is my own profit -- that's the entire point of the business, this isn't a government charity. The second is that they have to deserve to be treated better -- and that's something that they can earn. The third is that they have to be better than someone else. Again, I'm not their friend, and I owe them nothing up-front. If I can get someone else to do the job better or for less money or less agrevation or less time, then that takes us back to the first point -- profit.

      It's also a myth that treating employees better is worthwhile. It works in some ways, and not in other ways. Rarely does their dedication come from their treatment. It typically comes from their passion for the field, and their general work ethic. You can reward everyone all you want; if they lack the work ethic to get things done, they can want to as much as you'd like, it still won't happen.

      We're not talking about a huge corporation with thousands of employees where there exists an over-all effect. I'm talking about a handful of employees. I don't have the lawyers to deal with their screw-ups, nor do I have the client-base to tollerate losing a few. Every dollar I give to one employee is taken away from another.

      That's why I seek out partners and associates and good suppliers/contractors. These are people who invest their money into their passion and have everyhting to lose. It's a big deal if they lose me, and they operate with "aligned interests". We all succeed or we all fail.

      Employees don't deserve anything because they don't risk anything. It's that simple.

    37. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry.. but I would never agree with your view on life, business and other human beings.. Sure its a bit different for a small business with employees doing jobs that any other person off the street can do and that people won't make a career of.. but still not to the extent you imply.

      people still have basic human rights and employees in most countries are covered by a lot of rules and regulations designed to improve the workplace from back when all employers used to treat their employees as slaves...

      Emergencies such as an important call from a doctor take precedence over your rights as an employer and you could (in many countries) be sued/charged for not allowing the employee to take this call in work hours and again if you took any action or fired the person after over-hearing what disease they had..

      Even if you fired them for another reason you are then leaving yourself open to discrimination claims based on the fact that you could have heard that conversation, since you listen in to them. Perhaps not too likely but certainly possible.

      While personal calls and emails are indeed a waste of your resources and it is within your rights to discipline them for making them.. it is not within your rights (or should not be.. depending where you are) to violate their privacy in return.

      anyways i think i'd best leave it at that because i don't think we would ever agree..

    38. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      Then let's move on. You say "or should not be...depending where you are". Why would you think that your value systems should be respective in another country's laws?

      Assuming that I live somewhere where it is legal to do something that is illegal in your country, why should my laws be changed? Why shouldn't your laws be changed? More so, why should either laws have to change. Different country, different rules.

      Doesn't have to be a human rights thing either. Something as fun as basic intellectual property, which I don't think anyone considers to be a human right. But it certainly extends to the human rights issues as well. Hey, even individual neighbouring usa states differ on major human rights issues -- like, I don't know, death penalties and held-without-bail, and that surveillance issue too.

      So why would you presume that my laws should change? Laws are, almost always, a part of a whole. One law has little meaning, and is easily skirted. It's the whole of all the laws that create the societal culture. To say that one law, or one group of laws, is incorrect, especially when the country as a whole is just fine, seems to me to be, well, conceited. Don't you think?

    39. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are right, i should have prefaced that with "in my opinion"...

      And in my opinion it should be changed in some countries, not because I think that laws should be changed against another societies wishes, but because in many of these countries (such as the US) i believe the law making process has been subverted by some to change the law away from what the majority of the society would think reasonable for them to be.

      It should not reflect my opinions, but rather theirs and I suggest that this one most likely does not (in many countries).

    40. Re:Sound stupid to me.... by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      Wow, that's a lot more rational than I was expecting this to go. So I'm going to have to pull this out.

      I too agree that the vast majority of laws should reflect what the people desire. However, I've never believed that "the people" should be defined as "the majority of the people". Here's my rationale.

      I, personally, should not be allowed to vote. Simply put, I don't read the news, and I don't have any idea who's running, what they stand for, or even what the issues are. Allowing me to vote is either a complete flip of a coin, or I simply vote what someone else wants, essentially giving that someone else two votes. This is one of those things that has an easy solution -- give voters a very quick multiple-choice quiz about the platform of, at the very least, the candidate for whom they are voting.

      In general, when everyone has an equal vote, I think it's literally retarded. Not everyone has equal knowledge on the issue. Clearly, in my mind, expert opinions are worth more than ignorant opinions.

      So when it comes to our fun little issue of monitoring personal calls in the work-place, I would agree that the majority of people in any country would want that to be illegal. But that's completely unfair, for a few reasons.

      First, it's the employees that will want it to be illegal, and the employers that will want it to be legal -- for the most part. Employees are always going to out-number employers, that's a given. So now we've basically said that in absolutely every employee-employer dispute, democracy will have side in favour of the employees -- every single time. That's not so much democracy, as it is a bias.

      Second, the employees [can] make the decision completely selfishly -- i.e. without considering anyone else, nor even the issue as a whole. That's never an expert decision; it isn't even a rational one. It's purely a instinctual selection or, at best, a greedy one. Whether or not it happens to aligned with the better over-all solution is another matter. The employer, while certainly capable of being equally selfish in the case, should be considering the business as a whole because long-term business issues are, in fact, the even more selfish choice, but it happens to reflect the best interests of the company as a whole -- which includes the employees at least to some extent.

      I'm certain that there are better examples of by second point outside of this whole telephone monitoring, but you see my point. When the decision winds up being made by a party that doesn't actually consider the issue at hand, but simply makes a decision based on partial information, then it really isn't the best decision.

      This is often exemplified by public schooling, public transportation, and public health-care. Things that I would never financially support if I had the choice because I don't use any of them. But obviously my society is much better off having them. And the could never be afforded if my income class didn't pay into it to support the lower classes. Basically, I educating other people's children, and transporting other people to work, and I'm supposed to appreciate that I benefit in weird and wonderful ways -- but it isn't a short-term benefit, and it is a constant financial drain.

      Incidentally, I love using myself as an example of how I would/could/am completely stupid. It's fun.

      So I guess I'd want the whole telephone monitoring thing, to throw the whole one-man-one-vote thing out the window, and go with something else. Now obviously I'd prefer the whole it's-my-business-it's-my-choice, but that's equally inane.

      Hey, I 've been yelling at my province for two years now to stop pushing compact flourescent light-bulbs. I've been arguing that cradle-to-grave was never done, and that incadescents produce virtually no waste, whereas C.F. are incredibly toxic to produce and create loads of unrecycleable garbage. And now, low and behold, they poison thousands of gallons of water if you break them. Can't say as I'm surprised. But they didn't ask me, and they didn't listen to me when I contested -- not that I tried very hard, I run two 7-day businesses.

  5. Eh. by JustShootMe · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If the company owns the machines and the network, then the company is able and allowed to watch everything you do - particularly if you signed an employment agreement consenting to it.

    This is not news. Frankly sometimes I think privacy advocates overreact - and I think this is one of those times.

    --
    For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
    1. Re:Eh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you are confused.

      Many countries outside the US grant all workers even in the company network privacy.
      You can sign a as many agreements you like - this right (because it's law) cannot be overruled by anything.

      Granting basic privacy rights even within private organisations is - as far as I'm concerned - the most basic right a HUMAN has to have.
      Companies are not allowed to operate outside of the basic rules of a state, no matter how private they are.

    2. Re:Eh. by dreamchaser · · Score: 1

      I disagree. If an employer is paying for the machines and network and paying the employee to work then they have every right to read any email they want, anytime.

      It's got nothing to do with human rights. Don't use work email for anything other than work and you'll be OK.

    3. Re:Eh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My employer owns the toilet and urinals in the bathroom down the hall. So they should be allowed to watch me rock a piss or drop a turd if they wish.

    4. Re:Eh. by verzonnen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Company owns the toilet/washroom as well, I doubt any employer would argue they have the right to check on those as well.

      But give the people the option to access their private email from work and do monitor their work email. Then again I expect them to answer the occasional phonecall from work in their private time, so it all evens out.

      If you need to fire an employee because they are not doing their job do so, don't use silly arguments like browsing porn/nazi/bible/stockmarket sites as an excuse.

  6. 2 words by Plazmid · · Score: 1

    2 words: use encryption.

    1. Re:2 words by JustShootMe · · Score: 1

      Unless your workplace bans encryption that they do not have the keys to, which they have every right to do.

      I think looking for privacy in the workplace is stupid. It's kind of like having sex in the middle of someone else's yard and getting mad at the owners for watching.

      --
      For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
    2. Re:2 words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never gotten yelled at...

    3. Re:2 words by JustShootMe · · Score: 1

      And you might not. In all cases, just because they can doesn't mean they do.

      --
      For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
    4. Re:2 words by Plazmid · · Score: 1

      Then use steganography if encryption is banned.

    5. Re:2 words by Slate99 · · Score: 1

      The use of encryption on our company network by the user community is against corporate IT policy. Using encryption on email could be grounds to be investigated and possibly getting let go.

  7. Yeah, they can already do that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who said a business owner can't review the contents on their machines in the first place. They have computer forensics people looking for that all the time, all over the world. Now business people want to know what's up with IT. What's the problem. People abusing the machines they work on is common place. We as tech oriented individuals need to start working on teaching people what can and cannot be seen on a computer, so they don't make these mistakes at work.

  8. 198now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Australia has essentially become the England of 1984. No one except that government and corporations have any rights whatsoever, the only thing keeping them from putting cameras inside everyones home at this point is cost. And for what, who the hell hates Australia?

    It doesn't seem to prevent crime either http://www.brisinst.org.au/past-issue-details.php?article_id=68. These retards are just spending money for no particular reason.

    1. Re:198now by JustShootMe · · Score: 1

      Be that as it may, this has nothing to do with that.

      --
      For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
  9. Farewell, 9-5 Slashdot... by Thornae · · Score: 1

    I guess this is the last time I'll be posting from my (Australian) work computer.

    --
    |>
    Here be Dragons
    1. Re:Farewell, 9-5 Slashdot... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      I guess this is the last time I'll be posting from my (Australian) work computer. It sure will!

      ~The Boss
    2. Re:Farewell, 9-5 Slashdot... by Thornae · · Score: 1

      I guess this is the last time I'll be posting from my (Australian) work computer.

      It sure will!

      ~The Boss


      Given that I introduced my boss to Wikipedia less than a month ago, I don't think he's heard of /. yet...
      --
      |>
      Here be Dragons
    3. Re:Farewell, 9-5 Slashdot... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course it is...

      Because you are fired!!!!

      Sincerely,
            Your boss

  10. Meet the new Federal Government by Butthold · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Same as the old Federal Government

    1. Re:Meet the new Federal Government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We already knew that. Anyone who thought otherwise is an idiot - the Coalition only got voted out because people were tired of Howard.
      Labour new that too, which is why they were so careful to have exactly the same policies, but with no Howard.

  11. Having worked in security in federal government... by overbaud · · Score: 1

    ...the minimum is a police check to get a job. After that you have security clearances from Protected through to Top Secret and then breifings start eg. Alpha, Bravo etc. the higher level clearances pass through ASIO and they do background checks. If they didn't turn up anything about you being a terrorist going through the past 10+ years of your life, which you give them permission to do I don't know what they hope to find in your email. They look at club memberships, financial records, people you talk too and more. A dedicated, intelligent hacker is not going to try email a trojan and then give up, and you don't need to pour through emails to find binary attachments... and all this under a *labour* goverment! So much for the rights and protection of workers.

    --
    Users... the only thing keeping 1st level support from being the bottom feeders.
  12. Re:Having worked in security in federal government by JustShootMe · · Score: 1

    Huh? What does what you have to go through to get a security clearance have to do with employers snooping through work emails?

    --
    For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
  13. Re:Having worked in security in federal government by natslovR · · Score: 1

    This is nothing to do with Australian Government security checks of staff - it is a beat up over nothing. Private enterprise will now be covered by law when they scan employee emails to reject attachments. They won't need a signed statement showing consent, they can just do it to protect their networks.

    When I worked for a federal government department, my emails were blocked if they had any attachments or if it looked like it was unsuitable for work or if it was flagged as spam or chain mail. All employers should be permitted to do this to protect their networks.

    I wish privacy advocates hadn't jump on this like they have, but I imagine it is more to do with the way the media framed the question.

  14. "protecting" the nation infrastructure by Adam1213 · · Score: 1

    Bosses reading employees' emails will not "protect the nation's critical infrastructure from a cyber attack" instead it will make it easier. If an employee receives an email which is able to exploits a vulnerability if opened it would likely only infected. However if bosses are allowed to read employees' emails and does the bosses computer will become infected.

    The proposed powers claimed to address the "growing threat to national security" rather attempt to protect businesses from having employees spend time on things not related to work and malpractices that employees may do. The powers do not address "threats to national security" and it is likely that any gains to business would be outweighed by making it easier to take over computers used for more important tasks within a company such as on a bosses' computer.

  15. Confused by EdIII · · Score: 1

    Are we talking about a government or the corporations?

    If it's the government then they need to FUCK OFF. There is no reason for government mandated spying of corporate infrastructures. Period. If that is what is happening, then I can understand the uproar.

    It it's the corporations, then everybody needs to calm down and put things in perspective. Corporations have EVERY right to watch what you do at work. It is not even "spying". If I hire somebody to fix my toilet, then although it may annoy them, I can hover around the door and watch what they do. No different then if you are a full time employee of a large corporation. The "Boss" can hang around you all he/she wants. They can also read all correspondence you create, before and after, you send it. Using the company car? They can watch where you are going. Using the company email server? Well they ARE the postmaster too. So on every level they have the right to read your emails. Talking to your wife from work? The Boss can listen in to see if it's naughty.

    I know some people may want to draw a line with just how much they can be monitored while at work, but they have to at least understand that they are at WORK.

    1. Re:Confused by _merlin · · Score: 2, Informative

      Corporations have EVERY right to watch what you do at work.

      No they don't. In fact, in most of the world, they aren't allowed to spy on you without your consent. The USA just has a pathetic lack of privacy laws. Judging from your post and others like it, they've also brainwashed the population into accepting it. I don't want my freedom eroded any more than it already has been.

    2. Re:Confused by Derosian · · Score: 1

      In America, Corporations ARE... erh own the government.

    3. Re:Confused by mark-t · · Score: 1

      No they don't. In fact, in most of the world, they aren't allowed to spy on you without your consent.
      Why not? While they certainly shouldn't be allowed or permitted to spy on one in their own home or while they are on one's own time, if somebody is being paid to work, why should the employer have any less right to watch what they do than, to use the example the GP suggested, your own right to hover over the activities of the person you hired to fix your toilet? If a person isn't comfortable being watched by the people that are paying him to do the job, he is always free to quit and not be paid for it.
    4. Re:Confused by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      The USA just has a pathetic lack of privacy laws.

      The founding fathers were loathe to add too many things which they considered to be obvious to our Constitution because they were afraid that if things were enumerated to explicitly they would eventually become the only rights guaranteed to the citizens. Hence the broad language and latitude on matters not considered absolutely essential (like the Bill of Rights and there were arguments about whether to include that as well for the same reason described above). The fourth amendment concerning unlawful searches and siezures and the right of the citizens to be "secure in their papers and possesions" indicates that the founding fathers valued privacy even though they did not enumerate it more explicitly as a specific right along with freedom of speech and the right to bear arms for example. Laws are not absolute in the United States and they can be challenged and declared "unconstitutional" and they very often are when bad laws, like the one in question in Australia, are passed by the legislature.

      It is also true that Americans, being an independent and mostly anti-authoritarian lot with a healthy distrust of their federal government, frequently ignore, bend, or otherwise get around laws which they find to be inconvenient, stupid, or both. If you want privacy then take responsibility for it yourself. Use encryption and secure connections and register non-essential business relationships under manufactured identities and get yourself a mail drop to receive and send parcels under those aliases. If you don't care about privacy then don't do these things or trust the government to protect your privacy because we all know how much the people who violate your privacy, even in Europe where there are laws against it, care about rules and regulations...yeah right.

    5. Re:Confused by Asic+Eng · · Score: 2, Informative
      Spying on someone and watching someone are two distinct different concepts. When your boss watches you, you know that he's there doing that - when your boss is spying on you, you may not be aware of it. Using your concept of watching what the plumber is doing: in the first case you are standing around looking at his work - in the second you install a video camera to secretly observer him. People are very uncomfortable with the second scenario - they feel violated. That's why companies shouldn't be permitted to do it.

      If a person isn't comfortable being watched by the people that are paying him to do the job, he is always free to quit and not be paid for it.

      If a company doesn't like to observe a countries privacy laws - well too bad then, they have to do it anyway. Companies don't have rights, people do.

    6. Re:Confused by EdIII · · Score: 1

      That's right.... I'm brainwashed. I did not immediately put on my "tin foil" cap, or adjust it, and start frantically typing into the keyboard about how governments and corporations are evil, and how certain governments are pathetic and that my rights are eroding! my rights are eroding!

      I'm just as fanatic about privacy, anonymity, and government corruption in this world. I just have a "brain" and I like to use it too.

      Judging from YOUR post and OTHERS like it, you seem to have an unrealistic, unethical, fairyland sense of entitlement about your rights and privacy. Like I SAID, I am all FOR PRIVACY. Just when it is appropriate. See I can pigeonhole people too based on their comments into one group or another....

      So let me ask you.... Should government workers be watched? Careful it's a trick question :)

      I think you need to remember that when somebody is PAYING you to do something, then can, will, and should dictate the terms. If you don't like it, then go work for somebody else that "treats" their employees "better". Right there is your "rights". You get to choose where to work.

    7. Re:Confused by mabinogi · · Score: 1

      I find it very disturbing that you believe a private company has more right to spy on you than the Government.
      I'm not really comfortable with either doing it - particularly not for the reasons given. But at least the government is supposed to have your interests at heart - that's its reason for existing.
      A private company only does things for its own interests.

      --
      Advanced users are users too!
    8. Re:Confused by EdIII · · Score: 1

      Why is it so hard to understand that practically EVERY company started out from the ground up? What is so different about a "mom and pop" startup and a 50+ year old company?

      I understand that companies should not have rights, that people do. Well the "people" that own the company should have the right to monitor, audit, evaluate, etc. their employees.

      Your distinction between spying and watching someone is irrelevant. While "spying" may be disconcerting to some, it is the only way to perform audits of corporate policies sometimes. Unannounced spot checks if you will.

      FURTHERMORE, every SINGLE employee manual I have SEEN in the last 10 years specifically states that email, on company servers and equipment, IS NOT PRIVATE AND IS THE PROPERTY OF THE COMPANY. Where is the "spying" there?

      If you read my other posts about privacy, you can really see that I am FOR PRIVACY. I so very strongly believe that privacy and anonymity are THE essential foundation of a free society. However, even I have my limits. If you can't tell, I don't work a 9 to 5 job. I used to in the past. I have employed outside consultants from time to time, and I will probably be having a few employees in the next 12-24 months if things go well.

      When I start my company up, I WILL make it clear that all activities being performed on company time, and on company property can and will be under surveillance. I cannot afford to do otherwise. I will be working with sensitive data of other corporations and I cannot possibly see how I can look a client in the face and tell them that I have "security" if I have a bunch of employees running around with "cloaking devices".

      Let's get real, you are at WORK. What is so hard to understand that you are being paid to do something for somebody else and that they dictate the terms?

    9. Re:Confused by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      in the first case you are standing around looking at his work - in the second you install a video camera to secretly observer him. People are very uncomfortable with the second scenario - they feel violated. That's why companies shouldn't be permitted to do it. Interesting--the building I work in has two security cameras (we've had multiple breakins and the boss can pull up the images on his phone if the alarm system triggers).

      We've never had a single employee complain that there are two internal cameras. Not one person has mentioned. Perhaps you are assuming that more people feel "violated" by cameras than actually are?

      Companies don't have rights, people do. So entrepreneurs lose their rights because they are being gasp dirty capitalists? If you want to go down the path of enumerating each and every right, what about the boss' "right" to get maximum efficiency from their workers. Anyone can make up stupid rights...

      Like many others have said--company email address, company time, no expectation of privacy. Personal email address--expectation of privacy. End of story.
    10. Re:Confused by EdIII · · Score: 1

      I find it very disturbing that you believe a private company has more right to spy on you than the Government.


      I find it VERY disturbing that there are people that think otherwise. It's amazing the misguided sense of entitlement that some people have.

      If we are using the US as an example, then I believe that we BOTH have the rights to the following:

      1) "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" so long as it does not affect the ability of someone else to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".

      2) Privacy from the government and other citizens. No one has the right to pry into our private affairs. Period. The ONLY way around that is through due process in the courts. Another citizen suing for damages or the government (representing the interests of the people) PROVING that you committed a crime.

      3) Anonymity. I believe that unless there is a VERY good reason to do so, that no other citizen or the government can ask for my IDENTITY.

      4) The Right to Bear Arms. We should be able to own weaponry that is consistent with the goal of providing defensive security for our lives and our property. So that would be a YES for guns, assault rifles (even automatics), but a NO on rocket propelled grenades and surface-to-whatever guided missiles.

      Now where do you believe, in the very foundations of our society and government, it says (or should say) that we are entitled to work for somebody else (corporation with shareholders, or a wholly owned private company) and that "we" get to dictate all the terms? Why does, or should government get to create policies that tell companies they can't monitor their employees actions even though they are the ones paying them?

      You are the one that said you find me "disturbing". Well I sometimes find that "people like you" are a little bit "disturbing" with their blind assertions that we should have absolute privacy without even thinking it through first. Forgive me, but your statement has more then a little hyperbole in it IMHO. Granted, you are a 1/10 on the "tin foil cap" scale when speaking about privacy, but if we are going to defend privacy and anonymity effectively then we have to be reasonable and understand that there MUST be some limitations on it in any society.

      Now, I am going to try owning and operating such a private company here in the near future. Why do you believe that I don't have the right to read my employee's emails? Listen in on their phone calls? "Proof read" or even outright intercept their written correspondences with vendors or customers? Inspect their hard drives on MY COMPUTER SYSTEMS? Remotely intercept their terminal server sessions without them knowing it?

      What I find "disturbing" is that people don't seem to understand that everyone one of my employees will be representing ME. My COMPANY. My BABY. It's my MONEY that I am using to start it up. Not only that, but I have a RESPONSIBILITY to my employees. These people will DEPEND on me for a paycheck. It's their lives that I am messing around with.

      Are you KIDDING? OF COURSE I AM GOING TO WATCH ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING THAT IS GOING ON! I believe that I have a right to do so as well as a motivation to do it.

      So please, write back to me and intelligently argue why you get to work for me and that I should not watch what you do, regardless of whether it is physical or digital.
    11. Re:Confused by Asic+Eng · · Score: 1
      I don't know why this is so difficult to understand: not everywhere in the world people follow US rules. In particular this discussion is not about the US, it's about Australia. I doesn't matter much what US employee manuals say in this context. And if you start your own company you will obey the laws of the country which you are in - if you don't like that go someplace else.

      Well the "people" that own the company should have the right to monitor, audit, evaluate, etc. their employees.

      What rights company owners have and not have depends on the laws of the country they operate in. In a democratic society its for us to decide which those rights are. In some cases company owners may like it, in others they won't. If we decide that they can't snoop on people: to fucking bad, that's what the law is in that case.

      Let's get real, you are at WORK. What is so hard to understand that you are being paid to do something for somebody else and that they dictate the terms?

      Let's get real: I live in a society of LAWS. What is so hard to understand that these laws set limits on what my employer can do (among many other things) and that in a democracy the people can influence what these are?

      If you want employers to have some particular rights - fine: argue your point and campaign for it by showing that society as a whole benefits. Alternatively you can just keep saying "they should have this right", but that's not very interesting, and I think they shouldn't.

    12. Re:Confused by mabinogi · · Score: 1

      No one has the right to pry into our private affairs. Period. You answered your own question.
      If you suspect someone of wasting your work resources then by all means investigate that and deal with them appropriately - but don't spy on them as a matter of course.

      Apparently where you come from, doing so is OK. But in Australia it's not (yet - and hopefully this bill will be defeated) - and I would not work for an employer that thought that way. A successful relationship, whether personal or business is based on trust - if there is no trust, there cannot be a successful relationship.
      --
      Advanced users are users too!
    13. Re:Confused by EdIII · · Score: 1

      Alternatively you can just keep saying "they should have this right", but that's not very interesting, and I think they shouldn't.


      That's the only part of your post that I am interested in. I am not talking about the LAW. Laws are not "right" just because they are a law, and I am not even arguing about the laws in either the US or Australia in the first place. I am arguing about whether or not employees should be entitled to privacy at work in the first place and why.

      You said, "I think they shouldn't". Please explain that. Seriously. Explain to me why you are entitled (whether the laws exist or not) to absolute privacy on someone else's property performing work for them and being paid. That is what I find interesting...
    14. Re:Confused by EdIII · · Score: 1
      You did not actually answer my question.

      No one has the right to pry into our private affairs. Period.

      You answered your own question.

      If you suspect someone of wasting your work resources then by all means investigate that and deal with them appropriately - but don't spy on them as a matter of course.

      I was trying to state that it applied to government AND and any unrelated 3rd party (citizen). If i was not, then I am stating it here and now. A corporation is not an "unknown" entity. This is an entity that you agreed to have a mutually beneficial relationship with. The above clause does not apply since both the affairs of the employee and employer constitute the entirety of the "private affairs" that I was referring to. They are not separate. Furthermore, any activities that are created through relationships with corporations and customers also fall under the same category.

      So please answer my question again. Why are you entitled to work for me and I cannot watch what you do?

      As for the trust, that is a little beside the point. If I hire you, I believe that I can "trust" you to do your job right. This "trust" allows me to not have to watch you 24/7. However, if I DID want to look over one of your emails that you sent to a vendor or a customer, I do believe that I am entitled to do it. So although I agree that successful relationships between employers and employees are based on trust, I don't think that is a solid foundation to argue that as an employer I do not have the right to "review" any and all of your communications.

      What I have a right to do, is different than what I choose to do.

    15. Re:Confused by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      you only pay someone to be watched when you go to a show or watch models on a sex cam site.
      otherwise you pay someone for an exactly defined service. you pay money, your get your service, period. as long as your employees get their jobs done - providing their services you hired them for to you - it is not your business to interfere.

      it is strange that some people believe, that as long as they pay they may behave like assholes they are. but you'll learn that not everyone thinks so the hard way: you will have to pay more for your business than non-assholes do.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    16. Re:Confused by rohan972 · · Score: 1

      I find it very disturbing that you believe a private company has more right to spy on you than the Government.
      Monitoring your private email at home would be spying, monitoring your work email is not. Its a basic ownership issue. If the government monitors my email, its spying. If it monitors the work email of a public servant, it isn't. If I open my neighbour's mail, its spying. If I hire them as secretaries and they write something on my time and my letterhead, I can read it, it is not spying.

      This is not a privacy issue at all, it is clarifying a law that was drafted poorly so that it is more sensible.
    17. Re:Confused by Asic+Eng · · Score: 2, Insightful
      It's really about the kind of country you want to live in - it's a choice. I don't want employers to have the rights to snoop on people who happen to work for them, because I want to live in a free society despite the fact that most of us will have to be employees of someone else. I also don't think that e.g. technically-oriented people are less valuable to society than entrepreneurial-oriented people, both are needed to build a successful economy. To me that means that one of these groups doesn't have the right to treat the other like slaves. And certainly just because someone gives me a phone and expects me to use it, doesn't mean they automatically get the right to snoop on me. Just as they wouldn't get that right by giving me a shovel. If you pay someone to work for you, you should have the right to get good quality work from that person. That's it. No right to look at the employees underwear, no right to sexually harass them, no right to rifle through their wallet, no right to decide what they eat, no right to restrict their private life.

      I guess you'd probably agree that employers are not entitled to install cameras in employees restrooms, just as I think we are in agreement that an employer must have the right to monitor the quality of an employees work. The question is where to draw the line. One important aspect is economical necessity - if it's not possible to run a business under the restriction put in place, then those restrictions don't make sense. So that's my view of it: no intrusion beyond what's absolutely necessary. As for snooping on employees: many rich countries don't allow that, so clearly it doesn't fall into that category.

      It's a rather absurd approach to management, anyway. If you waste all your time reading employees' emails, you'll lack that time for the work which counts. If you want to run a successful company make sure you have good employees and keep them motivated. Measure the quality of their work, not how they get there. That's not just my opinion, pretty much any management handbook will tell you the same.

    18. Re:Confused by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      So please, write back to me and intelligently argue why you get to work for me and that I should not watch what you do, regardless of whether it is physical or digital.
      Because the equipment you own and operate is also a tax deduction from the taxpayer, i.e ALL employees. If you are prepared to give up said deductions then go ahead and spy on me.
      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    19. Re:Confused by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because I have a right to privacy.
      If you think the right has exceptions, then I don't believe you believe in the right as much as you say you do.

    20. Re:Confused by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Obviously the employer doesn't waste all his time reading employees emails, but the fact that the employees are aware that they _could_ be read at any time would make them think twice about using it for reasons that are not directly connected with doing their work. If an employee wants to have complete privacy from their employer, they should not be using company equipment to conduct private affairs.

  16. So this new guy they elected by iminplaya · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    is pretty much the same as the old guy? Eh, so much for that...

    --
    What?
    1. Re:So this new guy they elected by Cryacin · · Score: 1

      Yes, yes. We switched from coke to pepsi.

      On that note, most people are under the mistaken belief that Australia is under a democracy. Wrong. We are an Autocratic government.

      --
      Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
  17. What happened? by lelitsch · · Score: 1, Redundant

    I thought Australia voted John Howard out of office last year?

    1. Re:What happened? by NoobixCube · · Score: 1

      Other important offices haven't changed yet though. Attorney General, Governor General (though that's changing soon), and although I'm not sure, people like the heads of ASIO or the Federal Police probably haven't changed either. John Howard was a power-hungry prick, but now Parliament is feeling upward pressure from the other power-hungry pricks who've grown accustomed to the ability to breach our Constitution whenever they please.

      --
      Admit it. You post strawman arguments as AC so you get modded Insightful for refuting them, rather than Troll
    2. Re:What happened? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Other important offices haven't changed yet though. Attorney General

      Incorrect, there is a new Attorney General. While Australia is technically a monarchy in many ways it is actually far less so than the USA. The equivalent of the leading party in congress (called Parliment in Australia) appoints the executive leader (Prime Minister) who then appoints positions such as the Attorney General and Ministers of each department responsible for police, defence, roads etc. These positions are all filled with elected representatives but they are elected as local representatives and not specificly for whatever job they receive. These Ministers then decide what to do with heads of government organisations such as the Federal Police and ASIO. In theory such appointments are not supposed to be political and it is seen as bad form to dismiss them immediately after a change in government.

      The Governor General is the representative of Queen Elizabeth II in Australia. The role of this position has effectively been reduced to a ceremonial one since 1975 and has been reduced a great deal over the last decade.

    3. Re:What happened? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where on earth have you been? It's Rudd which is messing up ICT.
      First it's the Great Firewall of Australia with ISP censoring now it's this.
      Wake up

    4. Re:What happened? by rohan972 · · Score: 1

      now Parliament is feeling upward pressure from the other power-hungry pricks who've grown accustomed to the ability to breach our Constitution whenever they please.
      Now? Since the Whitlam government you means. Have a read of Whitlam's book, "On Australia's Constitution". He openly admits that our constitution is (was) the biggest obstacle to the Labour parties goals and details the ways they used to get around it. Having opened the way, "both sides" of politics have been doing it ever since. This is not a party political issue (unless you include the LDP, but they don't seem to have much chance of a major influence, we can hope though http://www.ldp.org.au/).
  18. Here's where it gets tricky by e9th · · Score: 1

    Your employer may require you to consent to monitoring, but not your correspondents outside the company. If they discover that their email is being monitored, lawsuits might ensue. The proposed law seems to cover the employer's ass here.

  19. Technology will overtake this by countach · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Technology will overtake this. When everyone has an iPhone or like in their pocket, who is going to send potentially compromising emails through their employer?

    1. Re:Technology will overtake this by ozmanjusri · · Score: 3, Funny
      I will.

      But then again, I'm a self-employed masochist.

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    2. Re:Technology will overtake this by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      What if youre iPhone is connected to the employer's Wifi? There's loads of offices where you can not get a phone signal indoors.

    3. Re:Technology will overtake this by pla · · Score: 1

      Technology will overtake this. When everyone has an iPhone or like in their pocket, who is going to send potentially compromising emails through their employer?

      Technology already has made this a moot point. Nearly every connection from my machines, both at home and at work, use some form of encryption. No one (except perhaps the NSA) will peek in on my IM conversations.

      As for email - Also a moot point. Don't use your work email for personal reasons, simple as that. You can get free 3rd party email accounts from dozens (if not hundreds) of places. Use one (or more), and keep your work inbox clean. That doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out.

      Regarding phone calls... At least in the US, these fall into a magical category. Unless your employer explicitly says they record/monitor them, you have the expectation of privacy. Even so, I still make all but the most mundane personal calls on my cell.

      I go to work, to work. Yes, I have a personal life that occasionally needs attention between 9-5 M-F, and won't neglect that in favor of winning Employee of the Fortnight. But most of the issues raised in this topic vanish if you take even the most basic of precautions.

    4. Re:Technology will overtake this by Schadrach · · Score: 1

      Heh, thankfully I work with most of my close personal friends (all guys I met in college and we ended up working together), elsewise my 6AM-??(usually 4:30PM, once as late as 10PM, 5-6PM at least once weekly) workday (not including the hour commute each way) would be impossible to get through. =p

    5. Re:Technology will overtake this by The+Great+Pretender · · Score: 1

      This asks an interesting question (in the states). So it's pretty much cut and dry that an email received/sent using a company server is company property. But what about email access through a company machine, or using company infrastructure? Is my google mail company property as I use my company laptop to access it? Would the parents iPhone email be company property because it was accessed and sent during company time using company equipment. I can only think is runs into the intellectual property laws that seem to typically assign IP to the company it it was 'discovered' using company equipment.

      --
      A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
    6. Re:Technology will overtake this by Nazlfrag · · Score: 0

      Is my google mail company property You bet. Why else do you think you're getting free email? You sold your privacy when you signed up.
    7. Re:Technology will overtake this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He means the company you work for, Captain Reading Comprehension.

    8. Re:Technology will overtake this by iamhassi · · Score: 1

      "But what about email access through a company machine, or using company infrastructure? "

      I'd imagine anything you do on a company machine is company property. I don't care if you checked your Gmail email or surfed porn sites, if you did it on company-owned hardware then all your base are belong to them.

      Why is this shocking to anyone? Why do people think they should have privacy at work? They're paying you to be there, do you think they should pay you but they shouldn't know what you're doing?

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
    9. Re:Technology will overtake this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You are not a slave and should not be treated like one at your workplace, unless it is impacting your work then you should have a decent level of privacy.

  20. How dare you.... by stox · · Score: 1

    let facts get in the way of a politician's perfectly good diatribe. After all, they know more then you do, thanks to the taps they are already monitoring.

    --
    "To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
  21. That count for MPs, too? by whitehatlurker · · Score: 1

    Since Parliament is subject to the will of the people, you too can now read your MPs email. Demand that and see what they say ...

    --
    .. paranoid crackpot leftover from the days of Amiga.
    1. Re:That count for MPs, too? by tick-tock-atona · · Score: 1

      Very, very good point. Gillard is a public servant, employed by the australian taxpayer. I'd like her to set up a website which is a webmail mirror of her inbox/outbox/personal folders please!

  22. Oblig. by holywarrior21c · · Score: 1

    in soviet russia, emails snoop on technically insensitive bosses!

  23. PGP? by homebrandcola · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Time to make sure my PGP certificate is still working ....

  24. Let my employer keep business-originating communic by icepick72 · · Score: 1

    If a corporation wants to sack someone they will find reasons besides snooping on email or IM -- that's just another tool in the arsenal but won't change anything. Should an employer have the right to read employee's conversations? I say yes, but only if the conversation has occurred using the business infrastructure like business email, IM from inside the business, etc. To draw lines, all that stuff should be available to the employer and the employee should be aware and use restraint. If an employee wants privacy during work time they can easily set up a remote connection to a home computer and do all their personal communication from their home machine.

  25. Julia Gillard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The minister for bad hair styles, Julia Gillard, probably hasn't heard about encryption. My employer is welcome to snoop my GPG encrypted email.

  26. This same govt that wants mandatory porn filtering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is the same government that intends to force ISPs to filter out porn, with customers needing to opt-out if they want to view the "offensive" material. Seems PM K.Rudd needs a lesson or two on digital privacy.

  27. Employers can already legally snoop on emails by dropbearsrus · · Score: 2, Interesting

    IANAL, but my understanding is that it is already legal for employers to monitor any and all use of employees emails, IM, etc. The company owns the computers so they can do what they want with them. There is no distinction between work-related and personal emails if they were sent or received using company resources.
    The Attorney-General says otherwise which is a surprise to me, and also I'm sure to much of the business and legal community. The legal advice to several businesses I've worked at, is that they are well within rights to intercept employee emails.
    Any Australian lawyers that can comment on this?

    1. Re:Employers can already legally snoop on emails by Renraku · · Score: 1

      The Hell They Can! (tm)

      While this is true, they DO own the infrastructure, this doesn't give them the right to snoop on your communications. Consider using the phone..should they be allowed to record and listen all your phone calls? What about those dirty pictures you have in your sent folder on yahoo mail..should they be allowed to access those too?

      The way it works in the USA is this. If the company owns the infrastructure, and the email is business related, they can snoop at will. If your email is external (gmail, yahoo mail, etc) and NOT provided by the company, then they cannot. Doing so is grounds for a lawsuit on the grounds of privacy invasion.

      --
      Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
    2. Re:Employers can already legally snoop on emails by deniable · · Score: 1

      Yep, but in NSW they have to give you two weeks notice of monitoring. At least that's how it used to work.

      They can't monitor phone calls because of the Listening Devices Act. (Which is why when you ring a call center, they have to tell you that they may record the conversation. You give them implied consent by continuing the call.)

  28. Blocked! Here's how to get around it. by daBass · · Score: 1

    Many companies are now blocking web-based email providers.

    They usually block not only by known hostname or IP, there are some smart systems that can identify things like SquirrelMail. And an old favourite is also to block based on educated guesses, like "webmail.mydomain.com".

    So the best way to get web-based email through is to run your own install, on a host/domain name that does not include "mail" and such. And use HTTPS, that way the proxy can't see you are using SquirrelMail or similar.

  29. It's not about employer access to emails by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Employer Access to Employee emails is normal in Australia and has been used to fire people for years.

    What the proposed legislation will do is to allow uncontrolled access by government agencies to business email systems. No warrant's, reasonable cause, etc.

    If you want to know how bad this is.
    Check out how great our federal police are - look up the name "Haneef"

    While we have a new government in Australia - we have the same old bureaucracy feeding the pollies with the same old BS.

    The older I get the more I appreciate "Yes Minister "

  30. Re:Let my employer keep business-originating commu by Zorque · · Score: 1

    I agree. While I don't really think an employee has to be busy doing work for every minute of the work day, they really shouldn't be using company time and resources to be doing a whole lot of personal business, especially any of the kind that would get them fired or arrested. The occasional e-mail or the nightly call home to the kids are fine as far as I'm concerned, but there's a point when it's too much.

  31. Paranoia by NoobixCube · · Score: 1

    Looks like there will be one positive thing to come of this: The number of "paranoid schizophrenia" diagnoses will sharply decrease, since it's not paranoia when you really are being watched.

    --
    Admit it. You post strawman arguments as AC so you get modded Insightful for refuting them, rather than Troll
  32. In the US by LS · · Score: 1

    It's quite common for employees to have no expectation of privacy regarding corporate communication. Perhaps things should change in the US as well...

    LS

    --
    There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
  33. in soviet 'stralia... by Dekker3D · · Score: 1

    mail reads YOU!!

  34. They can't spy on what they can't see... by fremean · · Score: 1

    1) Grab a laptop, and a 3g modem and byo email/msn - work can't spy on what they can't see
    2) It's ssl, use it.
    3) Tunnel :)

  35. Re:This same govt that wants mandatory porn filter by fremean · · Score: 1

    I say Mr Rudd might have been digging in his nose for dinner a little too deep and is now suffering brain damage...

  36. It's a beatup about a non-story. by Jacques+Chester · · Score: 4, Informative

    First I rang my local member, who referred me to Julia Gillard's office (she made the original idiotic statements). Her office referred me to the Attorney-General's office, as that's where it's coming from.

    The nice functionary I spoke to there said it's a media beatup. Under Australian law it's illegal to intercept the communications of a third party without a warrant. There was some wondering about whether passing emails through a virus scan qualified as warrantless interception.

    Rather than going through some court case about to settle the matter, it was felt that it would be easier just to amend the Telecommunications Interception Act instead.

    So that's it. There's actually no story here at all. Though it did provoke me to write an angry rant before I started doing what the journalists should have done in the first place - check the facts.

    --

    Classical Liberalism: All your base are belong to you.

    1. Re:It's a beatup about a non-story. by Jacques+Chester · · Score: 1

      And by way of full disclosure, I should point out that I ran as a candidate for a different political party at last year's Federal elections.

      --

      Classical Liberalism: All your base are belong to you.

    2. Re:It's a beatup about a non-story. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Rather than going through some court case about to settle the matter, it was felt that it would be easier just to amend the Telecommunications Interception Act instead.

      Of course it was "easier". I'll bet you an hour with my sister's ass that the "amendment" did not simply provide a narrow exception for network security. Oh no -- it had to be a blanket revision making sure the anal probes could be inserted at will. We certainly don't want to have to have to deal with any of that dangerous court supervision of our interactions with our employees -- far better (and cheaper) to simply purchase a few corruptible solons to protect our nefarious "interests".

  37. Not! by a lone 20-year-old by frn123 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    > -- never mind that the attacks were perpetrated by a lone 20-year-old and not by a foreign government or terrorist.

    This quote is far from reality. The lone 20-year-old was the only one who got convicted, because he was the only russian caught who
    lived in Estonia. Meanwhile the bulk of the attackers got away, because they live in Russia. And russia don't extradite their citizens (remember the Litvinenko case?). If you can read estonian, :-) see this link: http://www.epl.ee/artikkel/392271

    A crude translation: On june 28th 2007, the reply from russian authorities denied all help to estonian government regarding the cyber-attack investigations.

  38. Already legal in the US... by MadMorf · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...It's called, "I own the equipment and I'm paying for your time, so you have no expectation of privacy. Deal with it!"

    1. Re:Already legal in the US... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah thanks for your input, Stalin. It may surprise you to learn that not all workplaces are run by megalomaniacs who feel that because they're "paying for your time" they own your soul, have a right to watch you take a crap, and feel that their workers have no rights other than the right to be paid and to shutup.

      I hope you go bankrupt... quickly.

    2. Re:Already legal in the US... by srealm · · Score: 1

      The company also owns the bathroom facilities. Plenty of people go to the bathroom during work hours, its unavoidable. Do you also have the right to spy on people as they are doing this? It IS after all an employee using company-owned equipment. Or are you going to say employees DO in fact have some expectation of privacy, in which case, where any expectation of privacy is extended, then normal laws about privacy invasion and searches without a warrant exist.

      You can void this expectation under certain conditions by having the employee sign an employment contract that specifically makes the employee give up such expectations, but like all civil rights, unless they are voluntarily relinquished, they are still rights.

    3. Re:Already legal in the US... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So my company has the right to videotape me using the Restroom?

  39. Everyone's an expert by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Wow... with so many experts commenting on the matter I'm sure my 2c aint going to count for much. Anyway, as someone who works for a managed services provider providing services to a Federal Government department in Australia I find the spectrum of comments rather amusing. Obviously few of the commentators on the subject actually work in government or big enterprise.

    When you enter into an environment such as the one I manage you sign away your rights to privacy the second you accept the IT security policies that govern the particular workplace. Don't want to accept the IT security policy? Find somewhere else to work.

    Everything you do on the infrastructure provided to you by your employer is owned by the employer. Sure, the IT policy generally includes allowances for the fact that people have a life outside work and need to be able to conduct some personal activities from their workplace however there should be no assumption of privacy.

    I illustrate. Another Federal government department recently contacted ours over a potentially problematic email containing sexual content. We, as a Federal government agency, are required by law to investigate. We are not required to disclose the fact that we are doing this investigation. Should I be investigating you then you'd better hope it was a misunderstanding and that nothing incriminating is found in your mailbox because regardless of whether we find the item in question from that point on we are looking for a demonstrated course of action. i.e., does the person regularly conduct email activities that could result in a sexual harrassment case being built against them and in turn harming the reputation of the agency. Is that an invasion of privacy? Possibly.. if I was snooping into emails sent on infrastructure you owned, such as your webmail (which incidentally is also prohibited by policy and blocked by technological controls). Given that I have conducted my investigation on your government owned mailbox then sorry Jack, you have no expectation of privacy.

    As for whether Americans have different rules, legislations etc is not the point. The law being discussed is relevant only to Australia, Australian work places and Australian laws. Frankly any attempt to dilute the argument by referencing what other nations do is completely irrelevant and totally pointless.

    Do I agree with the proposals? Actually, yes I do. Given that my workplace already has such policies and the reasonableness of an employer being able to protect their property and infrastructure I don't see why this is an issue. If you don't like it, then don't do anything to warrant your activities being examined.

    Do I think that some employers could abuse the ability? Sure, but what makes you think that such employers don't already do so without your knowledge?

  40. Waste of time... by das_magpie · · Score: 1

    "Oh yeah I am terrified of bot nets, the poor routers oh god won't some body think of the routers. Those terrorist have really scared me this time...lets read employees emails thats going to stop them!"

    Lets face it thousands of employers around the world go through employee email all of the time this is nothing new the only difference is you can get the sack for having fun now.

    Good way to get someone locked up or thrown in gaol, all you need to do is spoof some emails and boom instant terrorist.

  41. Funny story by JimboFBX · · Score: 1

    Where I work they log everything, including IM conversations. Its actually kind of handy when something important is said in an IM conversation and you need to look it up (or as a boss if you want to see what your subordinates are talking about). The tool itself is just an SQL server that logs what you say character for character and does no post-formatting. That means if you stick HTML in your IM message it shows up that way on the page. One of my female coworkers thought they found a way around it by sticking secret messages in less-than and greater-than symbols. She demonstrated by sending a message with "hi" followed by her calling me gay as a secret message. She then refreshed the page to show me that the secret message wouldn't show up.

    She put a space between the less-than sign and her first character, so the browser displayed everything.

  42. While you are busy... by Rickus+Dickus · · Score: 2, Funny

    Dear Australian government,

    Since you are so eager to protect your country from evil bearded terrorists, I would like to suggest some other sensible measures:
    - employers can beat their employees with a stick whenever they do something suspicious ('suspicious' should be left vague)
    - employers can impound the passports of foreign or poor employees and lock them up all day in overcrowded shacks with no airconditioning.
    - employers can strip-search male AND female employees for dangerous substances that could be used for making bombs.
    - employers can cut of the beards of their employees, especially when they have darker skin or look suspicious in any other way.

    I am sure this will make your society more harmonious and safe.

  43. Two thoughts by mr100percent · · Score: 1

    1. Usually it's implied that if you're using someone else's network (ie that of an employer), they generally have the right to peer at what you're doing. At least, that's the general consensus among the /. crowd in the states.

    2. The reason given sounds quite shoddy. Who launches terrorist attacks from a work computer?

  44. I'm of this mind too... by Cyno01 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Its a little different because im hourly, but the principal still applies. If im on the clock, thats their time, and vice versa, i'm a real bastard about it too.

    I've been paged to the floor while on my lunch more than a few times, sometimes more than once durring my lunch break. I'm punched out for lunch (company policy) and required to take one (state law) i made my bosses fill out the apropriate paperwork for me to get paid for those interrupted lunch breaks every time. Although personally i'd rather not even take a lunch and not be stuck at work for an hour while not getting paid.

    I dont even answer my phone on my days off if i see that its work. One time i was just getting in for the day and my boss said something like "Why didnt you answer your phone yesterday, we coulda really used you, so and so called in." I just laid into him, with the HR lady right there too, i was like

    "My days off are MY time, if i dont show up for work on the days i AM scheduled then we have a problem, but i am not coming in other days unless you work something out with me ahead of time. I am NOT on call, and if you want me to be you're gonna have to pay me a salary, starting now."

    They havnt called me on a day off since then.

    --
    "Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
  45. Online Email / Security by XavidX · · Score: 1

    So what if you are at work and you log into your gmail or other 3rd party email? Should the bosses be able to read that too? People should use there work email for work and personal email for personal reasons.

    I dunno. I believe that a happy employee is a better worker. And mutual respect is very important. But I guess this topic is about security and that is also very important. Where do you draw the line on security? Its just like the government. Is putting everyone in the world on total survailance the answer to fighting terrorism?

    I guess these are the questions of todays age.

  46. Ok...so... by interactive_civilian · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That's not a very good analogy... it doesn't take place at work. It doesn't take place during work hours. Finally, you aren't asking your employer to deliver the communication for you. Take the same example as the GPP, but do it at work. You have finished your work, so you sit at your desk, take a sheet of paper from the notepad paid for by your work, write a letter to someone with the pen provided by your work, put it in the envelope provided by your work, maybe even go so far as to use one stamp that was also provided by your work, drop it in the company mail shute, and send it.

    In that case, is it OK for your employer to open the letter and read it before it leaves the building?

    --
    "Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
    1. Re:Ok...so... by piojo · · Score: 1

      Take the same example as the GPP, but do it at work. You have finished your work, so you sit at your desk, take a sheet of paper from the notepad paid for by your work, write a letter to someone with the pen provided by your work, put it in the envelope provided by your work, maybe even go so far as to use one stamp that was also provided by your work, drop it in the company mail shute, and send it.

      In that case, is it OK for your employer to open the letter and read it before it leaves the building? No. I don't have all the answers, but in this case, the letter's sealed and there's a "reasonable expectation of privacy", so that makes it wrong to spy on it (legality aside). Likewise, it would be wrong for an employer to sneakily put in a proxy to do man-in-the-middle eavesdropping on SSL communications.
      --
      A cat can't teach a dog to bark.
  47. Agree Re:It's a beatup about a non-story. by wadiwood · · Score: 1

    It's always been legal for companies in Australia to read their employees email. The techs do it as a matter of course as part of making sure their email servers are working correctly. And most? companies do backups and virus scans these days.

    I know of several employees that a company wanted to sack - and sending sexist jokes became the convenient easy to prove excuse. It does help if there is an employee policy that states that the Company owns all the material created on their computers and may read any emails or all of them when ever they want. I know of a few companies/government that filter dirty words out - sometimes with strange consequences like when you're trying to buy a female dog or eradicate prickly pear.

    --

    -- it must be true, it's on the internet.
  48. So you have never ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... heard of a "front" ?

  49. Dear CEO, by Homer's+Donuts · · Score: 1

    Dear CEO,

    Are you going to take that bribe I offered you, or what?

    The Extortionist

  50. Dear Sir by viva_la_toast · · Score: 1
    I find your comparison flawed. The fact that our newly elected Prime Minister (K-Rudd) is not a racist, conservative-of-politics-yet-radical-of-eyebrows thistletwat makes him very different to the late J-Ho, and in my eyes, rather preferable. Your analogy of Pepsi to Coke (two extremely similar things, differentiated mostly by marketing and packaging) is laughable at best, not least because both leaders look Rather Similar. Consider the far more pressing and relevant issues that face most Australians, such as abolishing WorkChoices, leaving Iraq, reducing Greenhouse Gases, making friends with Asia and Apologising To All Those Kidnapped Children[1]. Many of these important tasks have already been completed, even though Young Kevin has only been in power for around 130 days, surely making him at least slightly preferable to Old Man Howard. These issues have been judged[2] by the Australian public to be far more important than untrue[3] claims of eroding civil liberties.

    I believe these things invalidate your comparison of Eyebrows & TinTin to Pepsi & Coke. On the scale of carbonated drinks, Mr Rudd rates at least a Fanta, or possible a Red Creaming Soda (with ice cream in it), in his difference to Mr Howard (Coca Cola).

    Yours sincerely,

    Summer Glau.

    [1]"Rudd says sorry", Dylan Welch, Sydney Morning Herald February 13, 2008 http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/rudd-says-sorry/2008/02/13/1202760342960.html

    [2]"Australian federal election, 2007." Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. 9 Apr 2008, 01:16 UTC. Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. 14 Apr 2008 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Australian_federal_election%2C_2007&oldid=204352606.

    [3]"It's a beatup about a non-story." Slashdot Nerd, Slashdot, April 14th, 2008. http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=521210&cid=23060106

  51. Good, the sooner the better by gelfling · · Score: 1

    They ARE anyway, legal or not. So the sooner we simply all agree that employers have unrestricted rights to do whatever they like and it's patently clear, the better. We'll all know where we stand.

  52. Lone 20-year old by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Note, I am an Estonian living in Tallinn.

    I can't stand this idea on slashdot that it was a lone 20-year old. They only caught 1 guy. The whole thing did not originate from just 1 guy. If this had been the case he would have been thrown away in jail instead of being fined what I get paid each month which is just a slap on the wrist. Someone had to be held responsible and he was it. People, get your heads out of your ass and read about it. Really, you think that the people who blockaded the Estonian embassy in Moscow had no hand in the attacks? Nope, just 1 guy got pissed and launched the attack, that makes much more sense.

  53. I agree by notepad_doodler · · Score: 0

    I worked in a big US corporation (900 employees at the location), 80,000 world-wide. I knew several people who ran part-time businesses while they were at work. They did taxes, sold avon, managed investments, or sold real estate. I went to other people when I needed something done. Funny thing is they never got fired. No one was ever fired for bitching about the company or other employees in emails. No one was ever fired for emailing racial slurs. The only people who got fired were those looking at porn. I believe that's why they want to monitor electronic communications. They want to stamp out porn.

  54. It's my party! by p51d007 · · Score: 1

    If the email is being sent/received from a company computer, you bet they have the right! On our web based email, and IM client, when you log on, it states" "all information is being logged". This helps cut down on the BS

  55. Re:really? Really. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And, then the right for your employees to check up on YOU goes into effect as well. How do you like it, when the shoe's on the other foot? Or, does this interfere with your money laundering and "enron-like" scams?? Perhaps they ought to be able to read into your financials &/or accounting practices too eh, & know your bank account (offshore no doubt in Switzerland or the Kamen Islands) numbers also??? Yes, really.

  56. Re:really? Really. by wvmarle · · Score: 1

    And, then the right for your employees to check up on YOU goes into effect as well. No. It's my business, so it's my responsibility. When I'm doing something wrong, it's my responsibility. When my employee is doing something wrong, it's STILL my responsibility. You sound like a disgruntled employee who thinks he doesn't get enough money for his work; maybe you should try to run your own business for a start.
    An employee has a right of a certain privacy, but as employee you should also know that when the boss has a good reason, that privacy can and will be take away. It should not be done secretly either. Oh and to answer another poster: I don't care what an employee is doing on the toilet. But if they're going there every half hour or sitting there for twenty minutes at a time, I will be asking questions. Because that is not normal use of such a facility.
  57. Re:Having worked in security in federal government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some are recording everything you do, including decrypting your https secure sessions on the fly (yes, there is a means to do this). DVD backups will be used if they need to go after you. The good, is 'sound' individuals who police this, are usually reasonable, as they must also not disclose like management indescresions. Things like judges getting nailed for looking up porn, are quite rare.

    However, one is confident that abuse of this is not too bad - issues like natural justice,
    and choosing to pick on, or target one individual. In Europe, there is a data ombudsman who can confirm policy and process is correctish.

    However trust employers? Ogre boss reading secretarys mail, or that cute new starter who is too quiet. Bosses should not be allowed to read mail , or email. There should be a go-between, who impartially does what needs to be done, to prevent potential or percieved conflict of interests.

    At the very least, $100,000 fines should be introduced for employers who commit 'browsing' offences, and there should be a data ombudsman to catch sleezebag employers, who do the wrong thing.

  58. Bosses have always had the *power* to do that by Theatetus · · Score: 1

    Or at least admins have. If you send data over someone's network, from a trust calculus standpoint you should assume he or she reads it.

    Wow, if only there were secure, free, and easy to install encryption suites that worked with many popular email clients!

    --
    All's true that is mistrusted
  59. Telephone analogue? by crispi · · Score: 1

    How is this different from wiretapping PABXs?"
    Sure the telephone system also belongs "to the man", is primarily used for work, and "could" be used for "terrorism".

    Oh, that's right - there's laws against illicit interception.

    Same goes for email, where there is a presumption of privacy.

    EOF

    1. Re:Telephone analogue? by ZenDragon · · Score: 1

      I understand your comparison, however, I think this situation differs when the equipment and information that is being used is a function of your business. If the usage of my phone, and my computer, and my servers, is a function of MY business and I stand to lose money/business, or even go to jail when that equipment is mis-used. Then I feel I have every right to monitor that.

      However, in the situation you describe, said equipment and infrastructre is not a function of your employers business. You pay for your privacy and you are entitled to it, and you personally would be held responsible for the mis-use of that equipment.

      Oh and by the way, its not illict interception if you make EVERY employee aware that ALL of they actions on company equipment are being logged. This was clearly stated in the emplyee handbook as well as on the login banner and in every company resource that contained sensitive information.

  60. those little things by sams67 · · Score: 1

    It amazes me that so many people conclude that because the company owns the computer and/or network, then they have the right to do anything with them. The atmosphere of Protestant work ethic is palpable! There are these little things called laws and ethics, not to mention human decency, that you seem to be forgetting. The company owns the toilets too, so do you conclude that they have the rights to install cameras there? Think about what you are saying.

    1. Re:those little things by ZenDragon · · Score: 1

      I agree with you there is some ethical barrier that should not be crossed. However, I have worked for companies in the past that did this for one very legitimate reason. Employees dealt with credit card and social security numbers and other personal information of customers.

      More than once, people were caught sending this information out of the office. Thus it was mandated that all emails, IM's etc. were logged to prevent information leaks. And I 100% agree with the reasoning behind it. We went so far as to block all but sanctioned websites which excluded all online mail sites, as well as blocking all IM traffic and using our own custom internal IM server. Of course we also stripped pretty much all user rights from the user to prevent installation of anything that wasn't approved software. Some programs, even disallowed cell phones on the sales floor, and had key loggers on every machine!

      Having been on the corporate side of this argument, and having to deal with the consequences of an open work environment, I have to say I completely disagree with you. In my opinion the company has every right to monitor every aspect of what is happening on their equipment, especially if their business is on the line and depends on the security of that information.

      Simple fact of the matter is, people can not be trusted, and if I own the infrastructure on which these people are working I would be monitoring them as well.

      You might make the argument that your employees would be disgruntled and upset that they are so restricted. However if you don't give them reason to wander, or a the need to be wasting time online then this is not really an issue. They all have desk phones with their own personal lines and can be reached in the event of an emergency. And the company provides quite a bit of entertainment and incentive to keep working, so it becomes a non-issue after a while. The turnover rate is not as bad as you might think.

      Your comparison to restroom privacy is not really relevant as that is a completley different realm of privacy. The "equipment" with which you deficate is entirely your own, and thus you are obviously entitled to your own level of pivacy. Nevertheless, your comparison is just plain rediculus and does not warrant a place in this discussion.

    2. Re:those little things by sams67 · · Score: 1

      "Having been on the corporate side of this argument, and having to deal with the consequences of an open work environment, I have to say I completely disagree with you."
      I'm a company director and in my opinion a good manager is focussed on good project outcomes, not trying to screw every last second out of the lives of its hapless employees. Happy employees with a good work-life balance is the key to productive outcomes, not to mention a better world. If that means using the phone and email for personal messages, in moderation, then I'm fine with that - in fact, I encourage it.

      The "equipment" with which you deficate is entirely your own, and thus you are obviously entitled to your own level of pivacy. [sic]
      As are your communications with your family, friends, union reps, and doctors (even company ones).

      Nevertheless, your comparison is just plain rediculus and does not warrant a place in this discussion. [sic]
      Welcome to free speech. Suck on it.
  61. Sorry, plaintext traffic should be assumed public by Theatetus · · Score: 1

    If your packets are so damn "personal", why are you routing them unencrypted through your employer's network? Want to keep him from reading your gmail? There's a reason https was invented.

    --
    All's true that is mistrusted
  62. So I can spy on the boss too? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or is it only one way?

  63. And I call it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fine. Do that work yourself. I'm off to make a different company money.

    Your company only employs you because you make more in sales/efficiency than your salary. So they aren't doing YOU a favour. You're doing THEM a favour. After all, the manager produces no work so is only employed because there's someone to manage. The CEO doesn't do anything productive but gets much more pay because of all the people working for him. Without them, he'd be unemployed.

    YOU do THEM a favour.

  64. In USA, every thing on work PCs belongs us by Simonetta · · Score: 1

    In USA, every thing on work PCs belongs to the company that owns the PC. Well, yes, in legalese. But in fact many employees are finding out about the web by exploring the browser and web link that is often available in their work area. In electronics, it's common for people to have a PC linked to the network in order that assemblers and technicians (test and repair of the product before shipping) can enter data using the serial number of the piece (often a bar-code).

        In fact, I would say that this method is how the vast majority of adults get initial exposure to the internet in the USA. So during their coffee break, they explore the web. And like all adults learning new and important things, they will always overstep the boundaries set by lawyers (who are basically Puritans left over from the Salem Witch burning days on the 1680s.)

        And if they are guys, then they will, yes, at least once, type some sexual reference into the Google search line to see what happens. Face it, you did too, while you were learning and you thought that no one was looking.

        Well for this 'crime' the company lawyers insist that they have the right and obligation to destroy the life of the person that they manage to actually catch doing this. Or they warn the employees not to ever do things on the web under penalty of job loss. Which means that the older employees will never go on the web out of fear of being fired for something that they don't understand. This also means that you will never get these employees to use the PC voluntarily.

        What the company is only worried about is being extorted by one of the several schemes used to defraud using the web. They don't really care about Inez in bench 7b of PCB stuffing has discovered that she can send an instant message to her sister is Guadalajara for free. But this is VERY big news to Inez. And the only way that she knows how to do it is through the PC at the end of the table in her workplace. And she is going to use it. She doesn't realize that everything most likely gets saved. It's a super telephone to her.

        So even though the legal wording says that the work PC and all the things on it belongs to the company, in reality the situation is far more complicated. The company should realize that even though their lawyers tell them that they can do anything, it would be best to be very flexible about this.

  65. Sentiment to the contrary notwithstanding by mschuyler · · Score: 1

    There is a lot of sentiment to the contrary here, but the fact is in the US this is already legal and has been for some time. Two court cases settled the matter years ago. I'm not going to be able to cite the exact cases, but one was a woman who worked for Epson Computers in California who was fired for an inappropriate email. (I even forget the subject!) The other was in the Washington State civil service where the state snooped on emails and discovered union activities being coordinated on company time. The person was fired and the firing upheld. So the precedent is set in the US. It's over. The company has the right to monitor your emails; end of story.

    I don't understand how employees can legitimately claim their 'rights are being violated' when they are caught using a company computer on company time for personal issues. You can't use a company car to go grocery shopping for your family. You can't use company time to go see a baseball game. You can't use the company printing press to print your own book to sell on the side. You can't use the company copier to print your 'church bulletin.' Why should you be able to do those things? You are stealing company resources, whether time, gasoline, or paper, for personal use. These activities do not enhance the bottom line and make productivity (namely, yours) suffer. Like it or not, a non-profitable company won't be keeping you around long. I do realize a non-profitable company is ALWAYS the result of mis-management. Employees are NEVER at fault, by definition. But still, every little bit helps.

    Having said that, surfing on Slashdot on company time is perfectly legitimate. Once in awhile, believe it or not, you can actually learn somehing worthwhile that enhances your knowledge of IT and is of potential benefit to the company. Now back to work....

    --
    How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
  66. "Evil" Bearded Sysadmin by CompMD · · Score: 1

    Its a good thing I protect the crap out of my workstation. I mean, I don't do anything illegal, the worst I do during the day is read slashdot, but I am in charge of IT and thus have rights and powers that nobody else in the office (except maybe the CEO) should have. My workstation is well defended from any employees (including the CEO) and for doing so they haven't fired m(#@%$G@#%JH@$^QM%G ahem, we're sorry, Mr. CompMD will be taking a lengthy vacation, can we help you?

  67. Re:Having worked in security in federal government by overbaud · · Score: 1

    The point is that anything related to national security should have an associated security clearance process. That if they don't turn up anything in that process where they have access to magnitudes of information what do they hope to find in some emails? That anyone intent on taking down infrastructure will not use corporate email and thus your best chance is via the established clearances process, not more legislation open to abuse. I'll make this even easier for you to understand Russell... ferret out threats via background checks pre employment, not through email post employment.

    --
    Users... the only thing keeping 1st level support from being the bottom feeders.
  68. Re:Having worked in security in federal government by JustShootMe · · Score: 1

    I agree, but this is an edge case.

    --
    For linux tips: http://www.linuxtipsblog.com
  69. Already being watched in government offices ... by donak · · Score: 1

    I work for a state government department, and while we are allowed to make limited use of the internet at work, that's like a maximum of $10 worth per month.
    We're also repeatedly told that any and all use of the internet is monitored, by a general issue email sent to the entire staff.
    This email alternates with the one that announces that viewing or accessing "inappropriate content" can be punishable by anything up to dismissal.

    I've stopped being annoyed at either "warning", or complaining that some dope got caught looking at porn on his/her work computer AGAIN!.

    Things like FaceBook or MySpace have been blocked, because youngsters were looking at their "personal" page all damn day, and would not listen
    to Big Hints that they should restrain this particular impulse while at work.

    I can only conclude that a lot of people have no internet connection at home, or no self control, so it's not a huge surprise that the bosses are looking.
    Neither is it a huge surprise that there's something to look for. So, who gives a rodent's fundament if they're going to make a law about it?

    --
    Don't blame me, it's usually 2 in the morning when I post ...