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US Court Disconnects Canadian Domain Name Scammers
coondoggie writes "A US District Court today ordered a halt to the illegal practice of Canadian companies who the Federal Trade Commission said deceptively posed as domain name registrars and sent bogus bills to thousands of US small businesses and nonprofit organizations for their annual 'Website Address Listing.' The FTC said many of the businesses believed they would lose their Web site addresses unless they paid the bill, so they paid but in most cases the defendants did not provide domain registration services, did not provide the 'search optimization' services it claimed to provide, and bilked small businesses and nonprofits out of millions of dollars."
The bills do honestly look legit. I always wondered how they were getting away with it.
It would make me laugh though, they offered me their best deal of 4-6x what I am paying my current registrar.
They apparently see things differently.
A federal district court judge in Chicago, Robert M. Dow, Jr., ordered a halt to the deceptive claims and froze the defendants' assets held in the United States, pending trial. The FTC will seek a permanent halt to the scheme and ask the court to order redress to victimized consumers.
Lesson is? Don't store money in the US if you are (allegedly) committing crimes in the US.
I'm trying to get outraged but the US only affected US assets. Something within its Jurisdiction.
The article does specify they ordered their US held assets frozen. However, if they're smart, they wouldn't have that much assets held in the US.
its amazing people actually fall for that bulls***
i really must be in the wrong business. i'm thinking about this whole "business plan" concept wrong. i'm thinking "what do people want and need and how can i give that to them better than the competition"
i should be thinking "how can i prey on stupidity and fear of authority"
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
So basically the courts ordered someone to stop breaking the law? Yea, that's gonna change their whole attitude.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
There are two issues here. The US still controls the DNS servers, and Canada is part of NAFTA which forces them to comply with certain trade restrictions. Canadian courts could theoretically block this ruling and override the DNS change, but there is about a 0% chance of that happening. What is likely is that the US courts operated faster than the Canadian courts with this issue. I expect to see the Canadian courts charging these people with fraud in the next couple of months.
First off it wasn't a US action, it was a joint law enforcement effort, Some dips are trying to use an international border to dodge law enforcement and got caught at it.
Second nothings been disconnected, a US judge froze the companies US assets, a Canadian court needs to seize their Canadian assets.
This is not a case of the US trying to impose its laws on Canada again, the bogus domain name companies are committing fraud and thats illegal anywhere you go.
I don't know why this article is even on slashdot, its not news. Canadian and US authorities cooperated to catch a crook who tired to use the border to avoid getting caught. Happens all the time.
The US Court sure the hell has jurisdiction in the US, where the crimes took place.
Not when the perps never entered or stepped foot on US soil.
Now, if the owners of said company ever decide to vacation in the good ole U.S. of A, then watch out...
Who is general failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
I got an email about buying real estate on the moon. Had I bought it, at least I could rest easy knowing I wasn't a moron and it was in fact the person sending it who was at fault... I've also won a MILLION DOLLARS from readers digest... And they got millions?? really!? But the US has no power in Canada... How could this order make a difference? Actually, strike that last part. I'm fairly certain the US controls Canada :-). Harper would love that...
Who stole my key?
Especially if you send money to random people who ask for it without checking who they are first.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
Except that the US Government regulates interstate and international trade within the borders of the USA. So, an international mail fraud that takes place inside the USA (US businesses received fraudulent letters and withdrew money from their US banks to pay in US currency), the government will enforce as much of its law as possible. It will also probably attempt to have the perps in Canada extradited to be tried in the USA for fraud/etc.
bilked small businesses and nonprofits out of millions of dollars
Why bother? It's probably Canadian just dollars...
That only applies where we do not have any agreements or treaties for extradition with the other countries.
In retribution, the US will start sending unsolicited bills to Canadians for US cultural imperialistic products such as the Swimsuit Edition of SportsIlustrated, etc...
:-)
And if that doesn't work, we'll impound your hockey teams
dave
The thing about the "stupidity tax" as so many call it is not that it harms the stupid, it is that it rewards the corrupt.
You can laugh at the people who fall for things like this and pat yourself on the back all you like, but it is wrong. It isn't helping society. It isn't weeding out the weak and stupid. It is rewarding evil.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Au contraire. If the Canadian companies are scamming US companies by using the US postal service, you can bet that the court has jurisdiction to order them to stop.
If they don't stop, they will be in contempt. Any assets that ever enter the US can be seized. And I suspect that Canada would be more than happy to enforce the contempt judgment.
Because the targets of the scam are in the US and the US mail is being used, the court has all the jurisdiction it needs. To check this, see the Supreme Court's decision in Asahi Metal Industries Co. (1987), holding that a foreign product manufacturer could be dragged into US court if it foresaw that its products would be used in the US. This case is even stronger -- the Canadian scammers intended their scam to reach the US.
..and if folks RTFA there is mention of all sorts of Canadian government and police agencies being involved in this already.
Going on means going far
Going far means returning
Network solutions sends out bogus bill-looking mail too to registrants.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
Now if only the Canadian government would do the same thing up here.
Christopher S. 'coldacid' Charabaruk -- coldacid.net
This is where extradition comes in.
If the US asks for the Canadian gov to hand over the criminals and the Canadian gov agrees that they are in fact criminals, then they'll get shipped off and charged in the US for breaking US law.
The same can happen in reverse.
MABASPLOOM!
I haven't read the article, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess "Canadian companies" is used loosely since it's illegal to charge for a service and not provide it, even in the frozen, barbaric north. I suspect "Canadian companies" is being used rather than "illegal scammers that happen to operate out of Canada." Then again, I didn't read the article so...
heh, these guys send me a couple of their "re-registration" notices every year around that time. slimy, but illegal? how are they any different from the "renew you automobile warranty" letters i still get every few months?
http://kered.org
That's if the Canadian legal system agrees that they are criminals...
If for whatever reason, they determine that preying on stupidity isn't a crime, then a disagreement may ensue.
I'm not stating that's what will happen, just putting it out there.
I know there have been disagreements before as to what constitutes a crime, depending on where you are at, where the action took place, and whether or not the action was physical or virtual.
If I place an advertisement in a magazine, and say "Send $5.00, and SASE to xyz address" with nothing else in it, then whatever money comes my way, is mine. Granted, there are moral, and potential mail fraud issues involved if someone thinks that something is due them for their $5.00. All I have to do is mail back there SASE with a "Thank you" note, and I'm covered.
What this company did is clearly illegal, intent to defraud, etc...
What I proposed was not - yet someone, somewhere will claim they are kindred if not the same.
Who is general failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
Long ago, we used to get official-looking bills for listings in a worldwide Telex directory, for several hundred dollars a year. They were mailed from somewhere in Europe, I think, but the bills that reached us went straight into the bin. Looks like the scam has been updated.
Props to the perps. Go Canada!
It's the reason large companies use purchase order systems. But for many small/medium businesses the extra overhead of purchase orders isn't worth it, and so they become vulnerable to this type of scam.
This sort of mail fraud, along with spam, should be a capital crime. Unfortunately, that would mean that Canada would never agree to extradite them. Decisions, decisions.
steampunk web design
"DAX Publications" appears to be a Buffalo NY company, but the domain registration suggests otherwise:
Registrant:
namesbeyond.com
Private Private
4141 Yonge Street, Suite 204,Toronto, ON M2P
2A8
Toronto, Canada ON M2P 2A8
United States
Phone:+1.8773211356
This is some type of "Directory listing service". At my past job, they sent a bill for such things as "website hosting fees", etc.
How popular is this service? Let's ask Google!, try this:
daxpub.com -site:daxpub.com -site:daxadmin.com
How many hits? 8!!!! There are a whopping 8 links in all of Google that reference DAX Publications from the outside! There must be DOZENS of people who would know enough to find my business via daxpub.com!!!
For added fun:
1. Check their online directory to see if your company is listed
2. If so, check your accounts payable to see if an invoice was paid
3. If so, investigate and draw your own conclusions
4. Profit!!!
...consists of the FTC, the U.S. Postal Inspection Service, Competition Bureau Canada, the Toronto Police Service - Fraud Squad, the Ontario Ministry of Government Services, the Ontario Provincial Police - Anti-Rackets, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and the United Kingdom's Office of Fair Trading.A federal district court judge in Chicago, Robert M. Dow, Jr., ordered a halt to the deceptive claims and froze the defendants' assets held in the United States, pending trial.
The Commission files a complaint when it has "reason to believe" that the law has been or is being violated, and it appears to the Commission that a proceeding is in the public interest. The complaint is not a finding or ruling that the defendant has actually violated the law. The case will be decided by the court.
If this happens then prosecution can go back to the US courts can go after the assets of the foreign entity that happen to exist in the US. So if this company happens to use Bank of America for their banking service then their BoA funds can be seized. If they used PayPal for collecting the extortion^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H payments then the can seize the contents of the PayPal accounts.
In addition to that if they can get US indictments against the individual players within the bogus Canadian company then they can be identified as they enter or pass through the US and can be arrested there.
There are a number of ways that US courts can influence the foreign entities, even if Canada disagrees. I don't think Canada will disagree though.
Where are the DNS root servers?
Hint: That's the country where the courts have the final say.
The defendants named in the FTC complaint are Data Business Solutions Inc., also doing business as Internet Listing Service Corp., ILS Corp., ILSCORP.NET, Domain Listing Service Corp., DLS Corp., and DLSCORP.NET, and its principals, Ari Balabanian, Isaac Benlolo and Kirk Mulveney.
The case listed 3 principals by name so they should be able to be held liable for the judgement in the scenarios I outlines above.
The U.S. could just make the minimum sentence life imprisonment in general population. A fellow inmate whose grandparents or parents were scammed by spammers or fraudsters would probably take care of the problem within a few months.
Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading
I don't know if they would get extradited... but even if they are convicted in the U.S. and given time they can still serve it up in Canada instead of here.
(As a Canadian living in the U.S. I like to keep abreast of these matters in case I should ever snap and kill and bunch of people.)
Dan.
Hopefully. Fraud is fraud no matter where it originates. With the internet providing the con-artists faster and a wider range of underhanded opportunities, our two countries need to coordinate an efficient attack on this type of behaviour. Hopefully, the police and the courts up here will toss these criminals behind bars where they belong.
The problem is enough people fall for this to make it profitable for them... basically like spam.
When I was working in webhosting, I don't know how different customers would call us asking about these "invoices" and if they should pay them or not... or asking why they have to pay us since they already paid them.... probably hundreds.
It always annoyed me how they could get away with it...
That could start a war! Canada does have an army, though I think he's in Iraq at the moment.
-- Will program for bandwidth
Back in the 80's there was a scam where a company would send bills for the phone directory and used the "walking fingers" logo which was never trademarked. People thought this came from the one and only phone company and paid it. The directory (if it was ever printed)was not the "official" one. (Back then there was only one phone book. it was either just before or just after the breakup of AT&T.)
As a Canadian, I volunteer to round them up, place them in burlap sacks, and drive them down. I'll meet you at the Niagara Falls border crossing.
What happens to them after is up to you.
Carpe Cerevisi - Seize the Beer
But the question is whether the Canadian Parliament voted him any money to buy ammunition...
dave
I wonder if these people are behind the 'Domain Registry of America' scam letters that we get in the UK, with the OFT being involved.
Turns out the original ones were from canada too.. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/01/06/court_bars_canadian_domain_slammer/
Dudes, c'mon, our law enforcement officers and law makers are way too busy with important things such as a bribe-sponsored copyright reform to worry about such pesky things... :p
Just drop them over the falls; I'll catch them at the bottom.
NAFTA clearly isn't worth the paper it's written on.
See: Softwood Lumber
the US doesn't get to play Nafta victim when they've been screwing us and fighting it for years now. Either it applies to all of us or to none of us. You're not supposed to pick and choose what parts you like in a treaty and ignore the rest.
That is true. That being said, fraud is fraud anywhere. You have fraudsters based in Canada (I am Canadian btw), who are scamming American companies and then splitting the money into American and Canadian accounts. What the US Courts have done is found these people to be guilty of fraud (I'm finding it hard to argue against their logic. You have a group charging for a service that they are not providing. No matter how stupid people have to be to fall for that, its still fraud), and they have frozen their US accounts and assets. The Canadian courts can do whatever they want, but if the Canadian court has any conception of justice (or at least just doing their job properly), then they should freeze the Canadian assets and charge the fraudsters too.
There is quite a bit wrong with Americans trying to impose their rulings on everyone. But that doesn't mean they're always wrong. Nor that every case where our two court systems do something like this is a an outrageous act of Americans trampling over our sovereignty.
The court CLEARLY doesn't have jurisdiction.
No, the US court really does have jurisdiction. Again, read Asahi Metals. The Supreme Court found that US courts had jurisdiction over a Japanese parts manufacturer. The parts manufacturer had never entered the US and had never even directly shipped to the US. It was enough that the parts manufacturer knew that another company was integrating its parts (tire valves) into products that were going to the US (tires).
The same goes for state-to-state conduct. If you intend that an effect be felt in another state, that state has jurisdiction over you even if you never set foot in it. Libel laws are the classic example: If I intend to libel you, a resident of New York, by calling the New York Times and giving them false information then the New York courts have jurisdiction over me even if I've never been to New York.
Here, the scammers clearly knew that their scam was going to the US (they put US labels on the envelopes) and even intended that their scam go to the US.
You can't get around laws by sitting right outside the border and mailing the evidence into the country. If the relevant part of the conduct (false bills being received) happens in a country, then that country has jurisdiction. The only question is whether the scammers get another crack at the justice system when the US asks Canada to enforce the judgment by seizing assets. That depends on Canadian law.
I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't looking good either. - Scott Adams
I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't looking good either. - Scott Adams
Edit -- I'm sorry, in Asahi, the Court went the other way (it wasn't fair to bring that particular manufacturer into a US court), but the general rule still stands that if you know and intend a result in another country then you are liable in that country's courts.
With a big stick. Namely, if they don't show up then the court will enter a default judgment and seize any assets that can be found in the US. If those aren't enough, the US court will ask the Canadian courts to enforce the default judgment. Most countries have treaties regarding the enforcement of judgments (I don't know if Canada-US do, but I'd assume) and so the Canadian mounties will then start seizing assets in Canada and delivering them to the US embassy.
Thank you for the personal attack, whoever you are, I really couldn't care less what your opinions are as you have to respect someone for their opinions to matter.
I was mentioning the fact that there could be a disagreement over whether or not a law had been broken, and whether or not the people behind it would be considered criminals by another government, and/or to what extent they would be.
By showing something of a lesser degree, yet morally/ethically corrupt form, my intent was to show that differences in opinion would be made over whether or not the person doing it would be considered a criminal.
In some countries, doing something like that would potentially get you classified as a criminal, while in others, people would scoff at the people who did what you asked.
Different countries have different beliefs, laws, community standards, which will change your point of view and what you base your moral, ethical, legal definitions off of.
So while technically, my statement was not directly related to the discussion of the criminal acts described, it was in fact related as it showed something that depending on your legal basis, could be classified in the same category as these crimes which goes on to show my point that just because some Judge in the US declared that an act was illegal based on US laws, that doesn't mean that another country will concur.
I'm not saying that Canada won't, as it obviously has, in cooperating with the investigation, I'm just saying that you cannot take it for granted that what one country deems illegal, another will as well.
What would happen if a country, or worse yet, a religious order, were to try to enforce their legal/religous views on everyone else?
Who is general failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
Yeah, I 'know I'm a bad, bad man for providing false information, but as far as I'm concerned, providing fake contact info is just another way to avoid this bullshit.
Yes, I know that I could pay extra to hide my domain info, but I refuse to do so. If ICANN requires me to post real information, they can fucking well require the registrar to hide that info for free. In the meanwhile, I'll keep lying, and if the feds really really care about tracking me down, they can do so with the credit card that I use to pay my web hosting service.
Suck it ICANN, suck it spammers, and suck it eternal September.
Oh, and I decided to look up your comment history, and I'm not sure who was calling the kettle black here, as most of your comments were of the troll variety in my opinion, which does matter, to me at least...
Who is general failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
I was +5 insightful for a while, which I thought was funny because I said it as a joke - although I'm affraid that it's all too true.
Sad thing is, they don't even have to try as hard anymore as they used to. TV makes it too easy. Goebbels had some skills; Hannity et all are just a sworm of lowest-common-denominator shills. "Propagandist" is too good of a word for those hacks.
This type of case usually is prosecuted this way. Even if the Canadian's wouldn't have helped, we still would have prosecuted them in the US of A.
:)
Reasoning? Simple. They have assets here
The judgment against them means not only can we seize their assets, but we can get rid of them with the guilty verdicts, if I remember correctly. Otherwise, the "seizing the assets" thing we all hear so much about means little more than we are depriving them of the assets, but not disposing of them. Having a criminal judgment means we off them to the highest bidder (usually, our government holds auctions to dispose of this type of stuff, unless it holds onto it for it's own reasons).
--Toll_Free
PROSECUTION: "Your Honor, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury: Despite all the elaborate 'evidence' that my learned opponent has produced; the videotapes, the expert testimonies, the airtight alibi, the fact that the deceased was found alone inside a locked room with a smouldering gun in one hand and a suicide note in the other... Despite all of these things, I can prove, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that the defendant is guilty of this crime. You see, he was Extradited to face trial."
There is much noise and gasps from the gallery, the judge pounds his gavel loudly.
JUDGE: "ORDER! ORDER IN THE COURT. ORDER!... Proceed."
PROSECUTION: "Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, he was extradited. Our neighbors on the other side of the border would not have allowed him to face trial if he was not guilty. Therefore, he must be guilty. I rest my case."
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
When I had a large-ish company (75+ employees), it was fairly common to receive bills for things that we didn't order/subscribe-to. There are likely a number of companies whose accounts payable departments simply pay any bill coming in, without cross-referencing it to a purchase order. This is no different, really. (And even many semi-legit services, magazines, and so forth, would simply send an overdue bill, rather than a subscription renewal notice. I was always more surprised at some big names that would pull that somewhat deceptive practice...)
:)
(Is it just me, or does "ordering a halt to an illegal practice" sound kinda stupid? Seizing US assets, extradition, and so forth, fine. Go for it. But "stop doing that illegal stuff!" doesn't sound that useful.
Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
Just got a 'bill' from Internet Corporation Listing Service today. Their address is in NY, though. An AP clerk might be fooled into paying this. It sure *looks* official.
If your only tool is a hammer, every problem becomes a nail.
The biggest scam artist I've seen is the Domain Registry of America - they send out snail mail letters with impressive looking American flag logos on them with a bogus invoice-looking form to renew domains, but it's really the Internet version of slamming the domain and switching registrars. DROA needs to be shut down.
Where are the Canadian Armed Forces?
I believe a bunch of them were spotted in Eastern Europe some time ago. If you see them, tell them we miss them and to please come home.
Loose lips lose spit.
Very few Canadians bank with American banks.
MABASPLOOM!
Get a real job!
Did he ever visit Nigeria?
He seems to have a lot of offspring there.
(And apparently in Canada too)
.
- aqk
F U
While I agree with the sentiment - I do not agree with your logic. If I kill an American or steal from him in my country, it is only punishable under the laws of my country. The US courts have no jurisdiction here. Why should this be any different for the crime being committed by (presumably) Canadian subjects in Canada? What should happen is the information is passed to the Canadian law enforcement agencies and they take action if a crime has been committed under local laws.
I think that we both agree that what is being done is an offence, but I do not believe that the US courts can do anything about it, or at least shouldn't be trying to do so. It is the Canadian justice system that is responsible for awarding an appropriate punishment for the crime in this instance. By assuming responsibility because they host the DNS servers is exactly what many others feared about the US and why many advocate that an international organisation should assume responsibility for control of the servers. Of course, that will start another thread criticising the UN, NATO, the EU or whoever some think might think would be the appropriate body, so I will not suggest it..... Damn, too late!
Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
I wish they would do the same here in Australia, When I check my PO Box every 18 months there are dozens of scam letters from "Domain Registry of America"
An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
Those are the people that are trying to scam on the domains that Microsoft helped set up for the users as part of what I think was called, "Office live". I received a bugus renewal letter for each domain started that way.
They are harvesting Whois data from as many domains as they can. If they are a registrar they can see all the domains that are registered then is just a matter of querying whois servers for potential victims it has nothing to do with who you register with.
The amount of mail I receive from them for domains that have no connection with each other indicates that this is a very large scale operation.
~Dan
An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
Or sometimes then too
Fucking fascists.
I didn't know that their operations were wider than Office Live, since that would have been enough business right there. Up to now I thought that Microsoft was vaguely involved with them since their invoices showed up like clockwork for my Office Live domains. It is a shame that the same court systems that persecute students for music theft don't have time enough left over to so something about real thieves. In this case there is actual black and white physical evidence, and bank records also. What more do the authorities need.. I guess we can always hope that they forget to pay their taxes and get taken away for that.
I would challenge you to find a Canadian bank that didn't invest that customer's money in the US markets. With a little creativity and some balls a corresponding portion of that investment could be seized. The whole thing is moot though because the Canadian authorities were directly involved in the whole thing. They were partners with the US authorities.
I'm in Australia and the address they want me to send credit card info to is an address in Sydney.
An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
"Thank you for the personal attack, whoever you are"
You earned it.
"I really couldn't care less what your opinions are"
And yet you responded. Actions speak louder that your typed up lies.
"I was mentioning the fact that there could be a disagreement over whether or not a law had been broken"
And your point was pedantic and meaningless. Restating doesn't change that, listing your reasoning doesn't change that, NOTHING you do changes that.
You replied because you thought my "personal attack" had merit, and in so replying you did nothing more that reinforce what I said and prove me right.
"Oh, and I decided to look up your comment history, and I'm not sure who was calling the kettle black here, as most of your comments were of the troll variety in my opinion, which does matter, to me at least..."
Which speaks volumes considering the mods totally disagree with you, as based on my lack of troll mods vs. insightful/interesting/informative.
Currently 4 insightful/interesting/informative vs ONE troll. I guess your opinion has fuck all to do with reality huh? Or maybe you just can't read?
I guess when you posted you didn't realize you were admitting your opinion about what is a troll is worthless, but you had that effect nonetheless.
I think you should check the treaties and other international agreements between the countries involved. Often there is a system set up to to exchange cooperation in these matters. Japan in the case we the op was talking about most assuredly has one, so does Canada. It's how we were able to freeze drug assets and so one.
So no, it doesn't mean jack shit. It means what it means unless no agreements are in place which then it could mean jack shit. Remember the Australian guy who was extradited to America for breaking American copyright law? He thought it means jack shit too.