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Comparing Firefox 3 With Opera 9.5 On Linux
Joe Barr writes "Mayank Sharma has two recent stories on Linux.com; one evaluating the performance of Firefox 3, and the second comparing it to Opera 9.5. Which is better? For most people, it's probably more a matter of familiarity or personal preference, but these stories provide hard performance data to consider as well. Sharma notes, 'In terms of rendering JavaScript, Firefox 3 had the edge over Opera 9.5 in the SunSpider JavaScript Benchmark, which has an error range between +/-0.8% to +/-11.3% depending on the type of test. In the JavScript Engine speed test, Opera 9.5 scores over its peers when it comes to error handling, DOM, and AJAX.'"
Slashdot shares a corporate overlord with Linux.com.
I was using Lynx!
With four (count'em, four) good browsers competing for user attention, the evil days of monopoly and stagnation are ending at last. The light of the standards-based Internet is dawning, and "works best with Internet Explorer" is becoming the odd anachronism it deserves to be.
I've used Opera for more than two and half years on Windows and Linux. It is hands down the best browser and the most useful cross platform program available, for a variety of reasons.
9.5 is fine, once you move the New Tab button back to its rightful place on the LEFT!
The real challenge/merit is whether Opera 9.5 is accepted by webpages as being able to display all the content correctly, rather than insisting a component isn't there and demanding its download only to be told it's still not there.
That's my complaint about the last version or two of Opera (and I've been using it since 3.5), that I wind up having to break out IE or FF for some pages because just being adherent to the HTML 4 standard isn't enough of a claim anymore.
Laughter is the Spackle of the Soul.
I've never had the chance to use opera, but I'd consider switching if I knew it would load Gmail properly. ARgh! Firefox 3 STILL requires you to occasionally delete all cookies, cache, forms, etc. for gmail to load proper.
And don't tell me "all you have to do is select 'clear private data' and it loads fine." Sure that works for 2 or 3 days max, then you gmail starts screwing up again. "Just clear your private data" is a temporary fix AT BEST. It's really annoying to have to wait while all my sites re-download cookies, and having re-enter my passwords for the myriad log-in sites I uses.
There...
But yeah, does gmail load properly on Opera?
Thank you Dave Raggett
the lack of ability for the user to revert the behavior to the tried, true, expected behavior of FF1.0, FF1.5, FF1.8, and FF2.0 is ridiculous and will hamper the adoption of 3.0
absolutely stupid, just like IE7's totally unnecessary changes to its GUI
let's call a spade a spade and dish criticism to Mozilla just like we dish it to Microsoft
unnecessary and unrevertible changes to GUIs are MONUMENTALLY STUPID AND ANNOYING
They're similarly capable, but Firefox is FOSS. Win.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
I ask because I honestly don't know, but in Windows, Firefox uses the same font settings as the system. If I change the Windows' option, everything changes with it, including Firefox. This is because, near as I can tell, Windows is giving all the fonts to FF anyhow. It looks ever so slightly different on Vista, as does everything since Vista has a slightly tweaked font anti-aliasing engine.
Is that not how it works on Linux?
I've been organizing the bars like that since I started using FF, and I find it makes for much better use of that space than just a gray, blank area.
// MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
That's all I have to say about that.
Show a man some news, distract him for an hour. Show a man some mod points, distract him for the rest of his life.
The SunSpider bencharks reveal that the 64bit IE vs 32bit IE is 18.7% faster in Vista 64. I'm willing to bet the ratio is the same with XP 64bit too.
Anyone know when there will be a 64bit Flash plugin?
Life is not for the lazy.
New tab button...who needs that? The tabs also belong at the bottom and there shouldn't be an X on each one. Ya, I've been using Opera for far too long. But I still love it. I tried Firefox 3 but they STILL won't let you put the tab bar on the bottom (must be hidden somewhere if the option exists.)
I'm very happy with 9.5. The whole experience is just a tad bit better because I no longer have a few minor bugs to deal with from 9.2. FF3 finally feels like a finished product but doesn't seem as customizeable as I would expect from FOSS (without having to use extensions.)
Who uses the new tab button?
Command + t is much faster
What version are you using? I'm using it right now on an Ubuntu 8.04 laptop with absolutely no issues.
I gave Opera 9.5 a whirl last week and was highly impressed. It's packed with nice features (Where do you think Firefox and IE get most of their ideas?) but still pretty fast and light. Other versions of Opera never did much for me, but this is the first proprietary application that I've run across in a long time that I would seriously consider using on a daily basis. The only areas where it's really lacking are modularity (extensions, instead of everything being built-in to the browser) and of course the fact that it's not free software.
The fact that most of my extensions are un-installable in the latest version did not help matters.
This made me wonder...Why haven't the coders ported these extensions to Firefox 3.0 if it has been in development for a long time?
I also thought I would be in position to play live CNN streams but I was wrong! Firefox plays the commercial OK but will display a balck screen with sound when it comes to the actual content! Not good enough.
You're implying that Firefox is somehow inferior to Opera (or that their devs are somehow inferior to Opera's devs) because they "copied" features from them. I'm really tired of that sentiment.
If fridge manufacturer A came up with this revolutionary technology ("not only can it make ice, it can make iced COFFEE!" or some other stupid idea like that), and if fridge manufacturer B likes the idea and puts it into their own fridges (let's put patents aside for the moment), is it still inferior?
This applies not only to Firefox v. Opera, but Windows v. OSX v. Linux, etc. I'm not advocating code "theft"*, but if some software devs implement a feature without stealing any code, are they still inferior?
Remember that the Wright Brothers didn't invent the airplane, and that Henry Ford didn't invent the car. Are they inferior to the original airplane/car inventors?
TL;DR Version: In the end, it's not who does it first, it's who does it better (in most cases, anyway). Of course, if some people "copy" the feature and still end up short of the original, feel free to laugh at them.
* Could you really call it that in the case of open source software?
I didn't see anything about the one JavaScript feature I use more than anything else in Firefox: the ability to turn it off selectively (via the noScript extension, so one could argue that it isn't in Firefox at all, of course). Useful as JavaScript is, the way it is used to sneak adverts and other unwanted stuff on to your browser can sometimes make a website useless - at least to me.
I wouldn't be on the Web at all without it. I wonder how many depend on it the same way.
It's a matter of transparency. People frequently use a web browser to transmit sensitive information, such as banking and tax information. As long as the source code is open, it is subject to scrutiny, and therefore far less likely to do suspicious things with your personal information.
I myself doubt that any browser behaves that way, but there are a lot of people who are paranoid about the internet, and I don't see their concerns as particularly invalid.
The easiest thing to do is to use the Ubuntu software repository, but its only as up-to-date as the people who update it, which can be slower then the people who update the actual software.
I run both Opera and FireFox however Opera never FEELS faster to me. Perhaps it is the default settings, or perhaps the sites I go to Gmail, Gcal, Slashdot, etc, all feel a lot faster in FireFox.
Also, FireFox feels easier to use.
And then, FireFox has all of the plugins I now love, and can't get rid of.
Opera is doing good, but they need to focus on their target markets needs over their speed or standards compliance.
This is my footer. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
From TFA:
But Opera 9.5 is no less revolutionary than Firefox, matching its open source rival feature for feature,
That should be:
But Firefox is no less revolutionary than Opera, matching its proprietary rival feature for feature
Do we really need to break out the list of things that Opera developed that are now taken for granted by other browsers?
Yet Opera 6.5 runs GOOD, whether Firefox 3 won't run or just takes ages to start. Only/main advantage of FF is that it's customisable, with all the addons to 'improve the browsing-experience'.
I really appreciate OSS but at the moment Opera is the best browser for my older machines. My 2 cents.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
The fonts in (and outside of) Firefox 3.0 are clear and crisp as can be on my Ubuntu 8.04 install.
This is using a TFT screen though.
about this release is the huge bug with the network home folders not working. I mean, come on guys, is it really that hard to test something like this in a Lin/Mac/Win environment that exists in virtually all of the corporate/academic world to see if this works. Granted the javascript performance is two to three times faster than v2, but if you release it in a state where I can't deploy it because you missed a bug in some library, it's a really hard sell to the PHB if the new whiz-bang version is fuxored.
Sig this!
I'm on WinXP, and I've got ff3 and Opera 9.5. On my work's sites, ff3 beats the shit out of Opera with regards to Ajax and DOM speed. An Ajax call and DOM node insertion (with the contents of the Ajax call) that takes 2.5-3 seconds in Opera takes less than 1/2 of a second in ff3. Maybe linux vs Windows is a huge difference, or maybe the benchmarks are just not representative of real-world applications.
It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
knows they'll cry bloody murder with ANY change (and the loudest are the easiest to hear!). It can be ridiculous, stifling real development and useful enhancements.
That said, if you throw in too many of these you can simply kiss your user base good-bye..
I'll keeps on trying to get used to the awesome (??!) bar but I'm sure as I type this SOMEONE is creating a brand new shiny add-on to *truly* revert the behavior for those who feel the need it (oss, beauty eh?)..
I applaud the developers for the innovating work that they've done and wish them luck in their continuing success in finding the right balance between innovation and usability.
Quack, quack.
I love NoScript. Browsing without it is painful. That being said, if it (and everything like it) didn't exist, I would still browse the web. But I wouldn't have flash installed.
Write your own Choose Your Own Adventure. http://www.freegameengines.org/gamebook-engine/
Interesting, I wasn't aware of the existence of Firefox 1.8.....
What? I can press F8 and go to the address bar. I honestly don't know if down will let me access previous URLs because I turn that off. Two button forward backward? You mean like Right Mouse then Left Mouse to go back and opposite to go forward? That's still in. Just tested it. I'm running Opera 9.50 build 2042 on linux.
When I'm stuck without a screen, I use morse code. There is so much of asciipr0n to browse, I never get enough. Or any.
Chat with other atheists http://secularchat.org
Both Firefox and Opera?
Ignore this signature. By order.
Does anybody know what kind of architecture-changes the developers have made (since the previous major releases) to achieve this level of performance?
If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
I am no statistician, but I kinda assumed that the 'Total Duration" group in the Javascript Engine Speed test was a sum of the previous bars. Assuming that is true, why is the bar in that group for IE 7 so short? http://www.linux.com/var/uploads/Image/articles/139212-3.png
"Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
Konqueror is a great browser, even if I no longer use KDE (using fluxbox). For some reason, on my system, FF can't find my JRE...I've followed all the instructions on the moz forums, etc. (neither can Seamonkey, which is also, otherwise, a good browser). Opera, which found and ran java fine, can't play mpg video and other stuff mozplugger handles in moz/ff, etc., besides, as mentioned, it's not FREE. Konqueror has no problem with either of these things. There is also Galeon, Hv3 (written in tcl/tk), and a gaggle of other browser options out there. All the same, FF is still my default browser...but, I do like Konqueror.
-- tonybaldwin.me
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I tried opera 9.5 on a P4 3GHz 2Gigs, SuSE 9.3 and it's damn slow. Specially when opening flash based sites, like youtube.
Whooooshhhh!
I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
It's called humor. See this and this for an explanation.
Not easy? Okay, so it has "extract" in there, but it's basically the same as a Mac:
Mac: dump application file in location, run application.
Firefox/Linux (since they mention tarball): extract application in location, run application.
Okay, so they used a couple of techie words, but it's not exactly rocket-science (or even make scripts) to use it.
Maybe OSS has wised up and realize that 3 loudmouths bitching on the internet is not a mass-movement.
I'd bet if you surveyed the substantial Firefox userbase, 99% of them don't use any extensions. The popular benefits of having a clean/simple UI outweigh the flexibility found in extensions or plugins.
The bug you pointed to only mentions AFP (and in fact I've run Firefox3 without the behaviour described in that bug on NFS shares for months without observing this problem). You aren't going to catch an issue like that when testing on Linux or Windows environments as they very rarely use AFP for file shares. This is only going to show up in certain OSX environments (and not all of them as some will be using NFS/Samba/Local filesystems for home directories).
I can well believe that this could be a showstopper but if you want to know that this stuff to work well in your environment it really pays to test it and report the issues early on (there have been Firefox 3 nightlies for over a year) so they can be fixed well before release. As it is, it sounds like the bug you linked to won't be fixed until a Firefox 3 update...
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I've always been a massive fan of Opera, but now I've tried out both Opera 9.5 and Firefox 3.0 on my Windows machine, I have to admit that Firefox has really caught up to the speed and responsiveness of Opera and still beats it a touch in rendering accuracy (though whether this is the fault of Opera or web developers I don't know).
The "awesome bar" is nice, and I'm not sure what the complaints are about. Search anywhere and the enhanced page zoom are also great, but this is stuff Opera has had for ages and now Opera has full history search, which also searches page text, not just the title and url, and seems just as fast as the awesome bar.
I'm starting to see why so many people praise the add-on support Firefox has, as ad-block plugin in particular is fantastic; it blocks just about every ad, collapses empty elements and I never have to touch it. Opera has a pretty decent content blocker, but it's spoiled by being entirely manual.
It's an absolute joke how badly IE fares next to either Opera or Firefox in terms of features, standards compliance, and (on my machine at least) speed. I've also got Safari installed, but it seems like another case of Apple software that's great on Mac but crap on Windows.
BAH! Who uses the keyboard anymore? It's hold right-click, move down, let-go. Mouse gestures all the way, baby!!!
Indeed since when the fuck did people start complaining about these things. Extracting an archive. Double clicking a file. Running an installer. WHAT THE FUCK! Are you safe to use a computer? Do you want the computer to read your mind and know what you want installed and then magically install it for you - but then how are you going to run the program? You'll have to either choose it from a menu or , shock, double click. aww diddums.
You should be using mouse gestures anyway.
You don't even need everything you mentioned, which was my point. If you download the official build of Firefox for Linux (which "downloading the tarball" implies, since Linux is the main OS to use tarballs) then there isn't even an installer. It's "Extract...run...browse" in Linux, where as Mac has "Drag-drop install thing that Macs do...run...browse".
Okay, so that method won't install a menu item because it doesn't have an installer, but even that's hardly rocket science and I don't know how Mac would create menu/dock items without you telling it to.
I just want to know, which browser downloads my porn fastest. A 15 minuet break can just fly right by and every second counts.
Deadlines people... deadlines.
Yeah - it's called using a computer - to do a slashdot car analogy, it's like complaining that you have to actually press the gas pedal to go. Or that every so often one must fill up with fuel. These are the same people that 'don't know where their word doc is, and can't find it in the file browser, becuase it begins with 'M' and there window is displaying A-L , still not twigging that it's alphabetical and this means the same as when one os NOT talking about computers...
Because she can run faster than I do.
That should, of course, have quoted the following..
Freeness and open sourceness indeed is not a measure of quality. On the other hand, cost and closed sourceness is not a measure of quality either.
This is a personal choice - like buying american cars over imports (if you are an american), or buying from one shop instead of another. While you might pay more for less (all the time, sometime or never), it's a choice you're making above a pure cost/efficiency analysis.
From the article: "When you install Firefox 3, which is as simple as downloading and extracting the tarball someplace like /opt and running the ./firefox script"
This is slightly off topic, and maybe I've been using a mac too long, but this sounds anything but an easy install. Surely installing something as basic as a web browser has been simplified by now.
You'd think so, wouldn't you. To challenge the MS monopoly, you have to appeal to masses of users who don't know the difference between hard disk capacity and RAM and, in serious cases, can only copy a file by opening it in office and doing "save as".
Sadly, a lot of techie types are solipsists who can't comprehend the idea that something which is obvious and trivial to them may be unfamiliar and baffling to others, which is something that has really crippled Linux.
Before I get flamed: most modern Linux distros are linked to a substantial and well-maintained online repository of packages that have been correctly compiled and configured, and it is usually point-and-click easy to add/remove/upgrade these applications: in the fullness of time, Firefox 3 will probably be available through this route in the fullness of time. What's lacking is a single, consistent way of running/installing other packages - either through Windows-style installers or a Mac-style .app directory (for self-contained applications). Well, there is, and its called the source tarball - trouble is, that's not for everyone.
In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
Usability-wise there wasn't much difference from 9.23 to 9.50 for me. Got a few minor surprises, but didn't really care, since it worked mostly the same.
What did improve is that automatic proxy config finally works, also with passwords. On the downside, some installations eat up CPU and leak memory like Niagara Falls. Curiously, with the same stuff loaded, other installations don't.
You could always strace the executable, or run some sort of persistent netstat in the background. You don't need access to the source to detect if an application is making unexpected network connections.
Cause it's Saturday, and I hate to stray from my daily routine.
My 0.02 cents
It was interesting to learn that recently Google was stopping it's browser sync support. It was one the one feature that had kept me on Firefox until I switch to Opera 9.5 beta last year.
I need to give Firefox 3 a whirl, having been a user since it's inception, but currently Opera is my default.
IE is off my radar, IMHO it's playing catch-up to both. Having two quality browsers in the market can only be good for consumers. It will be interesting to see who innovates quicker... FF (open source) or O (closed source).
With Opera you can disable plugins (flash etc.) and/or javascript selectively for sites. You can also allow or disallow cookies, redirection, referrer, popups, java, animated images, frames and change your useragent on site-per-site basis.
Being free and open is a feature, from the perspective of the end user. It provides a small amount of future proofing for the software, allows users to fix bugs or customize things or audit for security holes if they have the skill or money, and it prevents the popularity of a given package being leveraged by the developer to hurt end users. As such, being free and open is a measure of quality, just as much as the inclusion of any other feature is.
Now for some people being free and open is a very important feature (like enterprises looking to do a widespread deployment of some new application). or other people, it is not a very important feature at all. And for still others, it is an important feature, but they don't understand why that is or by what mechanism it brings benefits. "Better" is a very relative term depending upon your needs and wants.
New tab button...who needs that? The tabs also belong at the bottom and there shouldn't be an X on each one. Ya, I've been using Opera for far too long. But I still love it. I tried Firefox 3 but they STILL won't let you put the tab bar on the bottom (must be hidden somewhere if the option exists.)
unless you're absolutely on principle opposed to extensions, the add-on tab mix plus (TMP) includes all your feature requests. it lets you put the tab-bar on the bottom (and has allowed doing so for ages), allows removal of the "X" on individual tabs (though i can't remember if that's a TMP feature or just an FF one), and the "new tab" button is made superfluous since double-clicking in any empty space in the tab-bar opens a new tab.
the above is exactly how i run FF: i use middle-click to close a tab, and scroll-wheel or ctrl-tab to traverse between tabs. for new tabs, you can use ctrl-t, but if you're only using the mouse, this requires switching contexts (or adding one, by keeping one hand on the kbd and one on the mouse), so i typically use the double-click method above.
one complication: TMP isn't listed as compatible with the release version of ff3 on mozilla's main addon site, though it works with the betas. This can easily be gotten around with the dev build found here: http://tmp.garyr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7031
Relax. Have a muffin. Enjoy the show. --Slick, Sept 13th, 2007.
Easy keyboard webpage navigation is one feature that Opera has that Firefox does not (afaik, not even an extension is available). You can hold down the shift key in Opera and using the numberpad easily navigate between links on a page. In Firefox you have to try tabbing around hoping you might eventually reach the link you want.
And yes I will be filing a bug report.
There are 11 types of people, those who know unary and those who don't.
Perhaps not, but it certainly couldn't hurt to know that the application's inner workings are publicly available.
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Firefox 3 shouldn't be "naked" without plugins, extensions and even IRC client. Thunderbird should be running too.
You need
1) Gestures extension
2) Speed Dial Extension
3) IRC Extension
4) A Sync extension
5) Thunderbird setup and running
That will be Firefox 3 having features like Opera 9.5.
Opera is a complete internet suite compared to Firefox or Safari.
Really? i use extentions to achive a clean/simpler UI (for me) than i would want to give to your average user:
compact/mini menu
fusion (windows users would be lost without the tab bar as would many who use lots of extensions)
menu editor (some people like having cut/copy/paste & others in their menus & a help menu)
Tab clicking options ( try and get everybody to agree what alt/ctrl/shift + click should do)
custom toolbar buttons (packing an extra 30-40 buttons is just going to confuse most people)
Scroll search engines (was actually a feature in one of the betas but confused too many people)
Dom inspector ( most people don't need this one)
extensions allow me to use the browser how I want without
a) coding the thing myself
b) coding a whole load of userchrome/usercss edits myself
IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
I have no mouse you insensitive clod!
Stop Computers/Cars Analogies on S
That's possible in Opera too, just turn javascript off in the site preferences
I ran into that bug since using the ubuntu build but with a profile ive been using since 3b2, a new profile without any incompatible extentions sorted that out.
firefox3 = 3/4 bars (menu, status, nav, bookmarks (most people either use or disable this))
firefox3 ( + extentions) = 1 (tiny menu, fusion)
opera9.5 = 3 bars (menu, status, nav)
opera9.5 (+ w/e you can do in userchrome) = 1 bar
my point is both browser take up exatly the same amount of screenspace, which can be just 1 bar (hell with other extentions or better userchrome hacking it could be 0) if you could be botherd to change a few settings instead of crying on slashdot
IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
You missed the point. Read the rest of your parent's post. I.E. the second of two lines, twitchy.
Most people don't even think inside the box.
There are a few features in firefox that made me stay using firefox over opera even on my slow computer.
First it's the way firefox remembers your passwords. If you have trouble remembering passwords then it doesn't make sense to ask you if you want to remember the password before you logged in. Firefox (as far as I know) is the only browser right now that doesn't have that brain dead behavior. Firefox lets you log in, see if you logged in correctly and then you can tell it to remember.
Second when using find. Firefox doesn't popup a big ass dialog in front of the web page you are trying to find stuff in. Safari also does a good job with this. Opera pops up a big ass dialog.
The extensions keep me using firefox everywhere. I like noscript, especially for a slower computer, I don't care if another browser can do javascript faster if I can disable all the shitty javascript. Ad block plus is also nice. Weave is starting to get good. Google toolbar is nice for filling in forms. And download status bar keeps another window out of the way.
If opera could implement those first two features, come with a better adblocking list and I could get over the busy interface I would switch. It is a faster cleaner browser. For now, it's firefox 3.0 bliss.
It has been statistically shown that helmets increase the risk of head injury.
I must be denser that I thought. Are you referring to the "cmd-T" line?
It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
...Opera search configuration, and searching with the address bar.
All I do is click the address bar, type "g whatever i want to google", and it's googled. I can use a different keyword at the beginning to search a different site, ex. "y whatever i want to search on yahoo," or even add MY OWN, like "z book on amazon" or "gm address on google maps", "gi image in google images," etc. I can search Merriam-Websters, AllRecipes.com, etc. simply by typing in the address bar.
Between this, the integrated RSS feeds, the download manager, integrated email, wand, and speed dial, it's tough for me to use any other browser anymore. ...and no, I don't have any stake in Opera.
Firefox 3.0 still wins on complex script support on Linux (due to better integration with pango than Firefox 2.0?). I don't know about other complex scripts, but for Devanagari (variants of this script are used for almost all north Indian languages, e.g., Hindi) Opera 9.5 fail to render ligatures on Linux correctly. I submitted a bug report way back when it was in beta, still not fixed in the final release. Come on, it is 2008 and a browser cannot render scripts used by 1 billion+ people.
I think Opera vs Firefox is a bit like Apple vs Linux.
Opera is less open that Firefox - I can't download the source code and I can't install extensions. But like Apple, it Just Works out of the box.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Took the words right out of my mouth. I don't know how I ever lived without mouse gestures. I've got nothing against Firefox, but it's Opera all the way for me. I've been using Opera for 6-7 years now I think and find myself trying to do mouse gestures in Windows and when I'm forced to use IE (when working on a users PC).
n/t
IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
Dear 15793
im afraid because your comment is so retarded (see replies above) on behalf of slashdot i ask that you leave and never return. Please leave any geek cards/mod points/computers at the door as your to brain dead to extract a file and click run. If at some point in the future somebody is to offer you an electronic device more complicated than a wristwatch, you may wish to seek medical advice before using it as all that button clicking may cause you head to explode.
In closing i ask you how you managed to pretend to be a geek for long enough to get a slashdot ID so much lower than mine?
your sincerely 1228016
IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
there are curently 4 formats which are fairly easy to install on a ubuntu/debian system
scripted binary tarball (extract (GUI) then run
unscripted binary tarball (extract and move to
If your on an RPM based system then i assume you can just double click an rpm and run unalien on a deb.
there are also source tarballs but that is normally for software thats unfinished and defiantly should not be installed if you don't have a clue)
IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
Might be screen resolution-specific?
Or if you use one of the many programs that take advantage of gecko.
azureus, miro, etc
IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
The extensions are by design - it might have been the reverse (Opera with extensions, even GPL extensions, and Firefox without them) and this won't make Firefox without extensions less open than Opera with open source extensions.
It's like Windows being less open than Solaris, even though you can run the same "extensions" (in this case programs) in both
since when did you have to spell to be a geek? bash has auto completion now!
IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
A few weeks ago, I had almost managed to eliminate all the non-Free software that I use. I then tried out a beta of FF 3, and realised that it doesn't fix any of the annoyanced I had with FF 2, and adds new ones.
I've now switched to using Opera. After a couple days of customisation (including learning to design my own buttons), I'm quite happy with it, except for a few minor nits:
Doesn't it suck Firefox's mouse gesture addon uses that gesture for new window, and the "up" gesture to open new tabs? :(
Very annoying when switching between browsers
Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
That's true. But I also think that software can hide behind being extensible and customisable. E.g. with Firefox I needed to fiddle around customising it for ages and installing extensions to make it usable. It's the same with Linux - very extensible but not really usable out of the box.
With Opera, I download it and it works the way I want. It's faster too, and it doesn't leak memory. Now I've never really used Macs but people that do tell me that it's the same there, not very customisable but you don't need to because it just works in a consistent way by default. Once you know what that way is, it all makes sense. But Linux doesn't have a way, or rather it's a miss mash of lots of ways.
It's like the differnce between buying a meal in restaurant you like and cooking yourself. Saying the restaurant doesn't offer as much choice misses the point. Or buying The Economist vs reading a bunch of RSS feeds. In some ways it's what choice the Economist leaves out that makes it a good read. Essentially open source, community generated stuff doesn't have an author or an editorial policy. Commercial stuff does.
Ok, I suppose you could say that Linux does have an author and an editorial policy on the importance of being GPL. But when you use a Linux machine it can have one of a dozen window managers chosen by the user. Every GUI app has its own user interface chosen by the developer. Macs and Windows are much more consistent since there is one UI and one set of rules, chosen by Apple or Microsoft. Once again it's an editorial policy as to what goes in and what stays out.
I feel the same way with Opera vs. Firefox.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
No, no, Linux users can't get girlfriends. Please note this for future trolling.
Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
Who gives a shit?
Comment of the year
If your on an RPM based system then i assume you can just double click an rpm and run unalien on a deb.
So that's 4 different ways of doing it on just one "family" of distros, 2 of which require a CLI and one "a clue" as you put it.
QED.
(Will now go and see if FF3 is in the repo for Hardy Heron, yet).
PS: don't get me wrong, I like Linux - I wouldn't run a webserver on anything else and it runs my home EMAIL system and my MythTV PVR and the desktop distros have made impressive progress, but to really compete they need to kick sand in the face of Mac and Windows to dispel the meme that "linux is for techies".
In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
It is...
In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
My favorite browser on Linux is elinks. Mouse integration with the correct shell is awesome, not to mention site rendering.
Although, for GUI based browsers, Opera is starting to gain my attention, but the mirrors to download it suck. I just downloaded it today to try it out and took forever. I downloaded FF3 on release record day and got it quicker.
http://wstearns.com/blog/2008/06/21/opera-linux-really-fast/
Wait, wait, so beeing closed is OK in case of Safari but not with Opera? (yes, yes, Webkit is open - but Safari itself isn't so you're not shure what it's doing under the hood anyway + runs only on proprietary OSes)
One that hath name thou can not otter
Thing I don't understand is...many people praising openess of Firefox are using it...on Windows.
Plus: seeing that Opera browser is the ONLY product of Opera inc., they can't afford loosing any trust.
One that hath name thou can not otter
I prefer cat gestures. They not only pass acid they exceed usability guidelines.
Swedish plasma phys. PhD student; MSc EE; knows maths, programming, electronics; finance interest; seeks opportunities
Yes really. Only a savvy user gives extensions a try, the rest use Firefox as Geeks created it.
True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
Opera has great features and is a fast browser but no matter what I have do can't get it to log in to my blogger/google account so Firefox for me. The mail feature has never worked and I can't be bothered working out why. It's all over. Got stuff to do.
I can't echo that enough. Maybe I'm less man than most. Maybe more.
as a long time user of Opera (exclusively, stubbornly, if I need to look at a page that doesn't display I'll go into the source and MAKE it display)
Where did you get the source code for Opera?
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
You are right. I meant WebKit, not NetKit.
Dr Superlove 300ml. I use my powers for awesome
He's probably referring to the feature where you can edit the cached page and then make Opera reload from cache instead of from the online version of the site.
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So "people" can inspect the code for themselves? Can you?
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Netscape might have introduced many features, but so has Opera. For example, the search field Firefox is making a killing from by sending searches to Google was invented by Opera. Today, browsers take this invention for granted. Firefox has borrowed heavily from Opera. And yes, as someone pointed out, NS was proprietary.
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