Twilight Hack Defeats Wii Menu Update 3.3

Croakyvoice writes "Only days after Nintendo shipped Wii Menu 3.3, which stopped the Twilight Hack from working, the team lead by Bushing brought out a new version of the Homebrew enabling hack for the Nintendo Wii using the Zelda Game and a hacked save game."

Comments

open works better

[drDugan]

when will these companies get it - if done well, open systems work better in a globally connected world.

billions of monkeys typing on computers will inevitably create a small handful that can and will consistently break your closed source world.

Re:open works better

[The End Of Days]

I'd have to say Nintendo has the entire open source world beat hands down so far as gaming is concerned.

Re:open works better

[The Ultimate Fartkno]

Unfortunately, due to decades of contentious lawsuits and complaints from cranky customers, companies have been forced to lock down their hardware to make sure that there are really no variables that exist in the system that could disturb the lowest common denominator consumer. Yes, it would be nice if everything we bought was unlocked, open, hackable, and mod-able to the nth degree, but that also opens the door to the one thing that no mainstream consumer will accept - instability. The average person buying some sort of tech gizmo would run screaming for the hills if there was a sticker on the box that said "Now look, there is a *ton* of potential in your new Swankbox 32X, but occasionally it's going to go down when we try something new. You'll just have to deal with it, but we swear that when it comes back up it'll just be AWESOME!"

How bad would it be if someone hacked / modded your amazing new console / hdtv / gizmo and added a feature that made it the absolutely kick-ass, must-have item of the year... *but* there was a bit of legwork involved and a 10% chance that you could brick the unit. How many failures would it take before the bad press was enough to sink you?

The vast majority of the people out there buying stuff just want to pay, plug, and play. That means standards, simplicity, and - unfortunately - lockdown.

Re:open works better

[IntergalacticWalrus]

I'm all for open sourcing stuff, but the business model of consoles is all about having a closed platform so you can keep piracy to a minimum. And so far it's been working pretty well for them for the past 25 years or so.

Yes, there's a "small handful" that will constantly break their "closed source world[s]", which in turn requires them to spend money writing and releasing patches all the time, but between that and making their consoles as piracy-friendly as PCs are, I'm pretty sure the former choice is the most profitable one.

Re:open works better

[mrsteveman1]

I don't believe what you just said represents 2 mutually exclusive paths, things can be open and stable at the same time.

Your lowest common denominator consumer isn't going to be screwing with the system, so the fact that its open and not locked doesn't affect them, certainly it won't suddenly make their system unstable, remember most people don't hack around in these things.

The real push here is to prevent any perceived piracy risk by preventing backups from playing.

Re:open works better

[Drinking Bleach]

Sony's PlayStation 3 encourages you to run custom software on it, but it's not helping their case very much :P

Re:open works better

[dissy]

The vast majority of the people out there buying stuff just want to pay, plug, and play. That means standards, simplicity, and - unfortunately - lockdown. I have to call bullshit and a half on this line of reasoning.

Lets go with a famous slashdot car analogy, that happens to fit perfectly well.

My car's hood is not locked requiring a special key that only the dealer has.
I personally however am not mechanically inclined enough to do much more than check fluids in my car. I *do* take it to a mechanic to have it worked on. I am like your wii's lowest common denominator except for cars.

Now, add lock down. A special key is required to open the hood. Only the dealers have these keys.
Suddenly, every single person that liked tinkering under the hood is screwed. They have to resort to quasi-legal methods to do with their property as they wish. Those people know better than to call the dealer expecting a replacement when they know it was them monkeying with it that broke it.

I however am not affected by this change. My car still runs, and the procedure is basically the same, other than I have to go to the original dealer and get raped by their 10x higher prices, but since my usual mechanic wont have the key, i get screwed too in a way.

Leaving the wii unlocked to modding can't possibly effect the people who will not be modding it!
It only prevents those of us who want to do with our property as we wish, from being able to do so.

Re:open works better

[Brigade]

Wow .. you just described my absolute hatred of Apple and their philosophy.

What you have here is two distict, yet separate groups:

The idiot-proof, lowest-common-denominator, who wants things to work (and simply).
The more adventurous, possibly more knowledgeable individuals who like options.

I will NEVER purchase an iAnything. Why? Because I like to tweak, tinker, and have options. That's why I have an 8GB Nokia that uses a standard USB port to talk to any computer (and the phone says "What do you want me to be? A USB HDD? Maybe Sync with your phone software? How about a normal MP3 player?"), a Creative Zen for MP3s/Videos on the go, and a PC.

The problem with a locked-down, "Do it our way only" philosophy is it encourages laziness and contentment. How many of us got curious, or felt adventurous enough, to tinker with something technological (broken or not) just to figure out how it works (or even make it better or more suited to our needs)? Which, through trial and error, only encouraged us to venture out further and learn even more when our curiousity was piqued? If we never had the oportunity to break something or toy with the horizons on our own, we'd never be as knowledgeable in a technological fashion as we are. (Referring here to fellow /.'ers).

Re:open works better

[LS]

I have no idea how this got modded insightful. Saying that opening a system makes it unstable is like saying that removed locks from the doors of a house will make it fall down. The stability of a system is correlated with its quality, not whether it is open or not.

LS

Re:open works better

[KDR_11k]

Fitting in with your sig the popular and good opensource games seem to come mostly in the former-commercial or clone-of-commercial flavours.

Re:open works better

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, but you sound like a marketing person. I take issue with both statement that you make:

1)"...no mainstream consumer will accept - instability"

2)"due...to lawsuits..companies have been forced to lock down their hardware"

Counter Argument:
1) They have already. Windows computers, pda's, IPods, you name it, lots of things these days need firmware upgrades or better even get obsoleted by a follow up model, that provides better stability. However, companies have given up on preparing products to stability before product release. And many consumers are willing to trade flexibility and 'cutting edge' against stability.

2) I disagree that it is lawsuits that force the lockdown or feature reduction. Usually it is some marketing person deciding how to best target consumer groups and setting features accoring to pricing. Examples: Ipods, cellphones, digital cameras (esp. powershot), gps (hello TomTom). All of these devices have a reduced feature set because there are pricier models out there that are only really differing in software, while the hardware is essentially the same. In summary the lockdown is to achieve marketer's model and price policy, not to prevent lawsuits. Disclaimers are sufficient to prevent lawsuits.

I am advocating much more open source and openness on the side of consumer product manufacturers. You are truely differentiating your products by building communities of 'nerds' who strive to squeeze out every last bit of functionality and performance out of your hardware and they can do it much better than your programmers could ever do. This will generate more interest in the products and allow for real 'cult' products without much advertising and fake hype. There are lots of examples in software, whole eco systems developed around games, programming languages, databases... Why not digital cameras, GPS's, etc? The potential is there, you just have to foster it.

Re:open works better

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no reason the manufacturer couldn't just add some note saying they do not offer support once the device is unlocked and that you do so at your own risk.

So it voids the warranty, fine. Sometimes you have to void the warranty to mod a console anyway and most people are aware of this when they do it.

Why bother making it so hard for those that want to unlock it?

You know a good example of a gizmo that comes unlocked? It's called a PC. Is the warranty on a Dell computer void if I take windows off and use a Linux distro? I don't think it is. Would I expect Microsoft to offer support for my Linus machine? No. Would I expect Dell to offer support for my hardware? Yes. :P

Re:open works better

[Tony Hoyle]

No it doesn't. It has a lame 'Other OS' mode that runs in a hypervisor with no access to the graphics acceleration and only limited access to the processors.

The PS3 itself is so locked down nobody has actually managed 'homebrew' on it yet.

Re:open works better

[Anonymous Coward]

"The average person buying some sort of tech gizmo would run screaming for the hills if there was a sticker on the box that said "Now look, there is a *ton* of potential in your new Swankbox 32X, but occasionally it's going to go down when we try something new. You'll just have to deal with it, but we swear that when it comes back up it'll just be AWESOME!""

Isn't this what the windows logo on every microsoft package/computer means? Rather than run screaming for the hills the public laps it up in droves. People want the latest and greatest they care not for stability. Stability is something they're appy to complain about whilst shelling out big dollars for NEW and SHINY!!!!

Re:open works better

[krischik]

Wow .. you just described my absolute hatred of Apple and their philosophy.

I will NEVER purchase an iAnything. Why? Because I like to tweak, tinker, and have options.

With most of what you say. But there is an exception: for the iMac it's not valid. The iMac is great for tweaking and tinkering. Better then a windows PC. All you need is opening Terminal.app and take it from there.

And what most users never notice: Apple isn't actualy against it, read:

http://developer.apple.com/opensource/overview.html

Of couse the MacPro is ever better for tinkering - but then there is no 'i' in it's name...

Martin

Re:open works better

[TechniMyoko]

"Yes, it would be nice if everything we bought was unlocked, open, hackable, and mod-able to the nth degree," That would be PS3

Re:open works better

[hvm2hvm]

That is affect, and no, you are not being a smartass because effect really doesn't work here.

Re:open works better

[Anonymous Coward]

The vast majority of the people out there buying stuff just want to pay, plug, and play. That means standards, simplicity, and - unfortunately - lockdown. I have to call bullshit and a half on this line of reasoning.

Lets go with a famous slashdot car analogy, that happens to fit perfectly well.

My car's hood is not locked requiring a special key that only the dealer has.

It is if your car's an Audi A2, however.

Re:open works better

[marcansoft]

The interesting thing is that modchips work in a completely different way, so these fixes don't really affect them. None of the current homebrew hacks/etc have anything to do with modchips or let people use pirated disc-based games.

As for VC/WiiWare piracy, it's true that the Homebrew Channel requires the same installation methods as hacked VC/WiiWare games, and both look the same to the system (unsigned channels). However, if Nintendo released an officially signed Homebrew Channel, we wouldn't have to worry about installing unsigned code any more. Then they could fix the unsigned channel bug, therefore killing VC/WiiWare piracy, and we wouldn't have to work around the fix (thus indirectly letting the pirates use it too). Pirate VC games are rather hard to run as "homebrew", because they want to read their data as channel contents.

Re:open works better

[Anonymous Coward]

you just described my absolute hatred of Apple and their philosophy.

What you have here is two distict, yet separate groups:

And because they're in a different group, you're going to hate them?

That's really rather retarded, IMO.

you just described my absolute hatred of Islam and their philosophy. I hope you enjoy your N95 when it breaks. Long term reviews aren't so good. Still, if it works for you I guess.

Re:open works better

[ymgve]

The PS3 itself is so locked down nobody has actually managed 'homebrew' on it yet.

I would say that "nearly anything that compiles on Linux" classifies as homebrew, don't you?

Re:open works better

[Dragonslicer]

My car's hood is not locked requiring a special key that only the dealer has. Because your car requires maintenance every few months that involves opening the hood. If a Wii needed a refill on magic smoke every three months, you'd have an opening in the box so that you could get to the magic smoke tank.

Re:open works better

[hey!]

This is where analogies get you messed up.

Consoles are computers. Computers you don't need to buy anti-virus or anti-spyware for. Remember the things that prompted the creation of web pop-up blockers? They were a direct result of the web being an open platform.

Removing the locks from your house won't make it fall down. But it will open your house to agents who might make it impossible to live in.

Of course, this is about Nintendo getting its cut of game revenues. But they aren't in the platform business, and dealing with the problems of such a business is a reasonable motivation not to encourage average users to treat the Wii as a platform. They don't really need to make it impossible, so they don't need to take a scorched earth approach to anybody who's installed homebrew games. They just have to make life a bit inconvenient, enough that Joe Average loses interest.

Re:open works better

[asylumx]

You must not drive a VW...

Re:open works better

[ultranova]

I'm all for open sourcing stuff, but the business model of consoles is all about having a closed platform so you can keep piracy to a minimum.

It has nothing to do with piracy and everything to do with getting license fees from everyone who develops software for the console.

Re:open works better

[Opportunist]

It also wouldn't mean more illegal copies. Mr. Average doesn't "mod" his console for the same reason he buys his games: It's easier, more convenient and doesn't require technical knowledge.

All you'd have to do is make sure that playing illegal copies requires you to know what you're doing and make it nontrivial to do. The reason why there is a market for game copies on the PC is that it's convenient (due to copy restrictions and "CD must be in the drive" crap, often more convenient than using the original).

Now, it doesn't get more convenient on a console than using an original. Slip in the CD and play. Since there is no install part, even the CD requirement isn't a deterrent.

OTOH, don't forget that most console manufacturers earn a sizable portion of their income from licensing fees to those that want to produce for their consoles. I doubt they'd readily drop this source of income.

Re:open works better

[pokerdad]

when will these companies get it

How about when will the modder/homebrewers get it?

This isn't about you. Nintendo isn't breaking your mod to screw you. Nintendo knows that you are going to have a new release to counter theirs within days (the very nature of what this patch did screamed, go create a work around, we don't care), but what Nintendo is achieving by constantly breaking your mod, requiring you to fix it, is limiting who will use such mods.

By constantly requiring modders to overcome new patches Nintendo is providing a barrier to entry. Two huge groups of people that represent the majority of Wii users will either never mod their units, or will give up on modding it because of these types of patches. The first group are those who don't have the technical skills; in a world without these updates many of them would have units that (with or without their understanding) would be modded by those with the skills, but few modders would want their phone ringing off the hook as the numerous units they modded for other people stop working as expected (I include kids who would/have caught from their parents for modding when this happens in this group too). The other group are those who have the skills, but just don't care enough about modding to stay on the treadmill; I certainly fall in here, I just wouldn't do enough with it to be worth my time.

So go on patting yourself on the back, and laughing at Nintendo and other companies that use this strategy; the reality is that they are getting exactly what they want out of this.

Re:open works better

[Carrot007]

> Since there is no install part

You obviously don't own a ps3!!!

(Yeah I know we are meant to be talking about the wii but your post seemed to have gone generic)

Re:open works better

[dissy]

Because your car requires maintenance every few months that involves opening the hood. If a Wii needed a refill on magic smoke every three months, you'd have an opening in the box so that you could get to the magic smoke tank. If they wanted to lock down the hood, and still needed to expose a very few select things (ie oil, dipstick, water) and the rest they force you to bring it to the dealer for. Not too hard.

Some printer companys managed to lock down their printers/ink carts, and they need maintenance every few months too in the form of feeding it new ink and more paper.

But, I suggest we stop now, no since in helping to design the next generation of locked drm car for them.

Re:open works better

[JoeKilner]

Not so.

I have an A2. The hood doesn't pop open like on a standard car (you have to flip a couple of little toggles and then take the whole thing off) but you can certainly do it yourself and it is pretty easy.

Re:open works better

[xtracto]

The vast majority of the people out there buying stuff just want to pay, plug, and play. That means standards, simplicity, and - unfortunately - lockdown.

Nope, that does not have to equate to lockdown, but to Warranty.

Seriously, every manufacturer (of anything I can imagine) will void their warranty if you in some way modify the bought item. They do not have to lock down in order to "manage" their service. They only have the state that, if you modify the product, then you will be out of warranty.

Back on topic, what Bushing did was really nice in my opinion. The guy disassembled the two or three new functions (which were added to attack just the specific Zelda hack) and he reconstructed the source code in C. Now that is all cool, but what I think was great is that he published the source code in his page and asked people to find bugs.

I think you pretty much can not win on such kind of situation. Pretty much every hacker (every decent C programmer) can look at the code and find bugs in the program. And IIRC, that was the way it happened, some guy wrote his comments about the code as a comment which was an effective way to bypass the "added security".

Re:open works better

[xtracto]

The real push here is to prevent any perceived piracy risk by preventing backups from playing.

It is funny to read comments in slashdot where people is talking out of their asses.

The "real push" has nothing to do with preventing piracy. The Twilight patch does *not* provide a way to play pirate Wii titles (so called "back-ups"), the way to accomplish that is witi a mod chip (which interfaces with the disk drive).

Therefore, the upgrade did not prevented "back-ups" from being played. It just tried to prevent the execution of the Zelda exploit.

That was a very specific attack against homebrew, given that even after upgrading, you can continue to play your "back-ups" if you have a mod-chip

Re:open works better

[Emb3rz]

One word: hypervisor.

Re:open works better

[Mattsson]

I'd say Windows and OSX are equal in how good they are for tinkering.
There's lots of stuff you can do under the surface to enhance the workings of the standard installation in both systems.

I must say that homebuilt x86 PC's are much more tinker-friendly than Apple PC's, or any other brand name PC's, though.
There's not much you can do under the hood in an imac. You're restricted to upgrading the CPU, RAM and harddrive. No access to RAM-timings, FSB ratios, northbridge overclocking/overvolting, etc, etc.
Not even on the MacPro. As with Dell, HP, IBM or other brand name PC's, you simply do not have access to low level tinkering.

If you want to tinker, you'll have to go with building your own system. And with a bit of tinkering, you can even run OSX on those systems. ^_^

In short:
OS tinkering = OSX and Windows are equal.
Hardware tinkering = Homebuilt systems rule supreme.

Re:open works better

[Opportunist]

Indeed, I don't own a PS3 and never will.

In the battle between curiosity (will it mod?) and integrity (it's a Sony), integrity won.

Re:open works better

[LS]

No, the analogy is not messed up, you are just going off on a tangent. The analogy is just illustrating the idea of stability, not security. No analogy is exactly the same as the thing it is compared to, or else it would just a description and not an analogy. You could also say that "removing the locks means you'll need to buy energy-wasting power tools and also create more trash when you have to dispose of the locks, thus creating a burden on the environment", which is also ridiculous because we aren't talking about the environment. It's clear that we are talking about stability here.

LS

Re:open works better

[v1]

I was to the mechanic last week to get my engine checked out. The check engine light was on and I had no idea why. It didn't really tell them much either.

So they hooked it up to a "computer". (little handheld diagnostic gadget with small LCD display) Many of us that have taken our vehicles in for service have had to "hook it up to the computer" to see why the idiot light is on.

It told him there were one of three problems, the main one of which was going to require tearing the truck to pieces to get at a sensor, and since it only MIGHT affect my gas mileage, it wasn't worth it and I'm just going to live with the light, it's an old truck.

But he said that the computer itself was 20 grand, and the modules that he had to plug into it to check my vehicle, were $500 apiece. (there were two, any vehicle takes a particular combination of the two, one to read the sensors and one to interpret the output) He also told me that this was the last time the company was going to make modules for it, that the next iteration he was going to have to upgrade the computer (another 20 grand) but was very thankful that the modules were going away and it was instead only going to cost $200-300 each for downloads to upgrade the two parts of the tool.

So in much the same respect, Ford holds a lockdown on my truck, that I can't diagnose it without someone paying an unreasonable amount to do so. I don't have to take it to the dealer, there are mechanics with The Computer too, but it's not like I can have one of my own. He gets $40 every time he hooks someone up to The Computer, to defray the cost of the computer and its modules. That's $40 I really shouldn't have to pay, it should tell me what's wrong, or be a reasonably easy output. (gimme a serial cable with serial out, or on something newer, let me ssh in) Or on some vehicles you get a flashing series of lights. Or how expensive would it be to simply have a 3 digit LED display to give me a number, and have a table in the back of the owner's manual to look up the number? But no they're very happy to charge someone a ridiculous amount for that privilege and so that cost is passed on to me.

I also know someone that reprograms ECUs for street racing ("ricer") cars. He has to disassemble the source code on the new ECUs to figure out what they're doing, to modify them to fit the customers' needs.

There are many examples of lock-down in vehicles.

Re:open works better

[Anonymous Coward]

Venturing OT here but I know some of the national auto parts stores (USA) have these computers on hand for free use. I used one at a local branch. Works out well for them to as many people will go right back in the store and buy whatever parts they end up needing.

Re:open works better

[PCPackrat]

This isn't lockdown. There are many tools available to read the diag codes from your car. His $20,000 tool and 2 modules covers most vehicles. But as an end user, you can buy a scan tool exclusively for your vehicle for under $300. If your vehicle is 96 or newer then it's OBDII and the tools are even cheaper as they have standardized the language cars speak.

Re:open works better

[witherstaff]

Have you seen the inside of the average new car nowadays? With proprietary computer diagnostics most corner garages are closing as they can't talk to the cars, hence they can't fix them.

There are also warranty issues. No one but a Toyota dealer would even want to touch a Prius, what with the high voltage special training required. If anything cars are being locked down more and more. The hood is just there to allow you to do the minimum required, fill washer fluid, check a few levels and top off. Otherwise things are locked out.

Re:open works better

[hey!]

The analogy is just illustrating the idea of stability, not security.

But in fact this is a distinction without a difference for a game console.

Of course, an open system wouldn't be less stable because it is open. This is an absurd idea. The software doesn't know whether it's open or closed. That's not a technical detail, it's a policy one. The very same software that is closed can be opened just by distributing specifications and keys. It doesn't know whether this has been done or not, and therefore it will be as stable as it ever was.

But this is a straw argument. Asking "does opening a platform make it less stable?" is an unreasonably narrow interpretation of the question, "would an open system be less stable?" If, instead you took this to mean, "would users experience more stability problems?" then security is really the key question, given that these boxes are designed to run one application at a time.

Now of course, an "open platform" is going to be more stable than a "closed platform", over the long run. However, a restricted platform is going to be more stable than an unrestricted one, over the long term, because of malware. An open platform is necessarily one with unrestricted uses. Restrictions not only discourage malware, they discourage other kinds of software that make persistent, background changes to the behavior of the system, such as system hacks to alter game play.

Now, you can argue that people should be free to hack anything they own, and I'd agree with you. You should be free to do so, knowing that the consequences are your responsibility. However the personal responsibility part is something a lot of people don't understand, so from Nintendo's standpoint it looks indistinguishable from having customers unhappy because of stability and performance issues.

Re:open works better

[Anonymous Coward]

Consumer-level readers that are specific to a single or at most a few models of cars are much, much cheaper (around $50) than what your mechanic has. Interpreting the results yourself can do more harm than good, but it's still not near the level of lock-in or costs that you're describing.

Along those same lines, why can't I purchase something from Nintendo that allows me to run homebrew games?

Re:open works better

[mrsteveman1]

I don't even have a Wii, i was speaking in general, usually when these platforms get locked down its not for stability reasons, its to stop backups from playing.

Re:open works better

[billcopc]

Yes, you're absolutely right.

That's why my custom-compiled Gentoo kernel causes Debian machines all over the world to panic.

Just because something is open, doesn't mean Joe Random will hack it. If he does, and he kills it, tough tits.

Joe Random can also press DEL while booting his computer, mess with the voltages and multipliers, and fry his CPU/board. Tough tits!

There's three kinds of users:
1. those that are good modders, do their research and understand the risks

2. those that don't mod, they're content with the defaults

3 the know-it-alls who possess that perfect blend of ignorance and excitability, that mess with things they don't understand

Promote #1, support #2 and fuck #3 in the ass with a dremel! That's how you develop a platform!

Re:open works better

[billcopc]

As the happy owner of a modded Wii, I'll chime in and state that blocking homebrew is a very pointless and stupid move. Nintendo needs good developers, because the Wii has caused every half-bred rip-off artist to jump on the bandwagon and the volume of crap games is staggering. It's like the NES all over again!

By promoting homebrew, or at least letting them be, they just might allow someone to develop a really cool feature or indie game, that Nintendo could pick up and sell online a-la Xbox Live. Simple popcap-style games fit the Wii demographic to a tee.

Re:open works better

[billcopc]

Some printer companys managed to lock down their printers/ink carts, and they need maintenance every few months too in the form of feeding it new ink and more paper. And people buy these printers because ... ?

Any office drone can swap a printer cart and add paper to a tray. We've been doing it for decades already. If the manufacturer required me to call their overpriced support monkeys over each time I get a PC LOAD LETTER, the first monkey will meet an untimely death and I'll score some free printer-opening equipment.

Fax to the print company: "Support rep never showed up, please send another", lather, rinse, repeat until the CEO himself comes down to "fix" my "printer".

Re:open works better

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a 2001 jeep, when the idiot light comes on I turn the key on, off, on, off and then on and watch the odometer. It gives me a P code (PXXX) that tells me what is stored in the ECM. Look up the code and I know what the problem is. I believe all makes have something similar now.

Re:open works better

[billcopc]

I must say that homebuilt x86 PC's are much more tinker-friendly than Apple PC's That's only true if you used tinker-friendly components, primarily the motherboard and ram.

Cheap board + cheap ram = no tinkering
Cheap board + awesome ram = might not even boot!
Awesome board + cheap ram = limited tinkering
Awesome board + awesome ram = the sky's the limit

Case in point: I have two PC models, both have the same base performance. One costs $775, the other costs $1125 - for the math-challenged, that's a $350 difference. Same CPU, same amount of ram, same-sized hard disk. The cheap one does not overclock, the fancy one can tweak just about everything and has plentiful avenues for expandability with extra PCIE slots, SATA ports and back-panel connectors of all kinds.

Remember, by default the expensive unit isn't any faster than the cheap one, and the only way you can get value out of that extra $350 is if you're overclocking and/or water cooling, adding a second video card, or a bunch of hard drives.

A homebuilt PC can be made to suck every bit as much as a brand name PC, you just have to be as cheap as the big guys.

Re:open works better

[badboy_tw2002]

The real reason for lockdown is piracy prevention and ensuring publishers have to go through the manufacturer to get their cut of the game. (How do you think they manage that? They make all the discs and charge a lot more than a pressing plant!)

Currently both PS3 and 360 have "manufecturer approved" ways off playing with the console - PS3 has their crippled linux build, and 360 has the less-crippled-but-you-pay-for-it XNA. Not sure if there's less hacking involved because of it, but it does seem like at least an attempt to appease both sides. I haven't played with either on my consoles, but I know the XNA stuff will soon be published to XBL with games that can potentialy crash (thought not crash the system - Microsoft takes care of that part for you! :)

Re:open works better

[Craptastic Weasel]

You didn't mention what year your truck was, but if it's as old as it sounds it probably uses OBD2 for diagnostics.

Here is a link to Wikipedia regarding OBD as well as a web page, obd2crazy.com for you. You'll be surprised at how simple it is.


Of course with maybe a Nerdkit and some free time you could make such a display, and even give it cool emoticons to tell you when it's Co2 Sensor is worn etc.. :)

Re:open works better

[Anonymous Coward]

Think about it from the vehicle companies side. You state what the computer 'thinks' is wrong. The owner replaces that part, there are still errors, or ir breaks, or something. The owner sues the company and wins. If the owner takes it to a repair shop, the person sues the repair shop for the problem.

Re:open works better

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. You can buy a $50 device at Wal-Mart that will read the trouble codes for you. The OBD-II interface on all cars and light trucks made after 1996 (required by then, some had it before 1996) has one standard connector with 3 possible serial interfaces on it. Ford only uses one of those serial interfaces, GM another, and "everyone else" uses the third. Yes, it is absolutely retarded that they couldn't all just use one serial interface, but at least there are only 3, it could be worse.

Older vehicles with an ECU typically used OBD-I where there is less standardization, but you can still buy cheap devices to read trouble codes from most of those computers. With some cars you could hook up a light bulb to a couple of the pins on the diagnostic connector and the computer would "blink" the trouble codes at you. Some could even blink the Check Engine light to give you the codes.

Re:open works better

[urbanriot]

Except this keeps the average user from loading up pirate software. Wii copy protection works for the masses, but doesn't work for the small handful that know how to get around it.

billions of monkeys typing on computers will inevitably create a small handful that can and will consistently break your closed source world.

Re:open works better

[neonmonk]

I semi-agree with your philosophy... However, the things I've been able to do with my iPod touch (regardless of whether Apple wanted me to or not) are leaps and bounds ahead of what I could do with my Nokia.

Re:open works better

[IntergalacticWalrus]

No, it has everything to do with piracy, because the cruel reality is that no matter how good the intentions of the homebrew hackers are, 99% of the people that use their hacks are only interested in piracy.

Re:open works better

[tepples]

Sony's PlayStation 3 encourages you to run custom software on it True, and it's a nice gesture, even if a token one. But how well have PS3 homebrew developers been able to work around the lack of even 2D hardware accelerated graphics?

Re:open works better

[The Ultimate Fartkno]

Your lowest common denominator consumer isn't going to be screwing with the system, so the fact that its open and not locked doesn't affect them, certainly it won't suddenly make their system unstable, remember most people don't hack around in these things You know, it's really rare that I say something like this around here, but your point is so obvious and insightful that I feel like I should apologize for being so blindingly obtuse in my original post. You made a great point and have changed my line of thinking on the issue.

Re:open works better

[The Ultimate Fartkno]

I have to call bullshit and a half on this line of reasoning. Kindly see my post here:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=591317&cid=23896693

It applies to you as well.

Re:open works better

[Mattsson]

Yes.
A known good overclocking mainboard + cooler is a wise choice if you want to tinker.
If the mainboard suck, so will your system no matter what you put on it.
In my case, I prioritize getting lots of RAM instead of fast RAM, but that's because 4GB DDR2 800 will give me more performance than 2GB DDR3 1333, plus I can upgrade to 8GB without throwing away any old sticks later.
It's a matter of what you do with your hardware.

My recent upgrade:
$24 Graphics card (I'm no gamer. Well, I've got AoE II)
$32 CPU-cooler
$64 4GB RAM
$80 CPU
$96 Hard drive
$113 Mainboard
Reused old chassis, PSU, soundcard and midi interface.

Compared to stock speed I can run the CPU at 160% , RAM at either 120% speed or at 25% lower latencies, FSB at 200% + lowered northbridge latencies, all prime95 stable.
Packs one hell of a punch for a $385 computer.

I can get a little more out of the CPU if I crank up the voltage a bit, but I want to keep temperatures below 65 degrees Celsius during continuous full load.

Re:open works better

[DamienNightbane]

You can do the same thing that his $20,000 computer can do using just a paperclip.

Re:open works better

[LrdDimwit]

These are not independent. Look at this from the game publisher's perspective: why publish for a console (with these added costs)? What are the benefits compared to publishing for a PC, where these fees don't exist? I've never heard any company say "well, we were gonna release a console version of the game ... but the fees were just too much, so we're going PC".

The benefit to the game makers are several fold; lower cost of development (single target hardware platform, instead of variable), and low piracy. It's much harder to pirate console games, so piracy is much less prevalent. The perception is that the sales distinction between PC and console is because of the piracy issue.

So it seems to me that part of the reason console makers can get away with charging these fees, without publisher backlash, is the fact that the lockdowns prevent piracy.

Re:open works better

[Anonymous Coward]

So? PS3 is still far more open than any other console on the market. No territorial lockout, homebrew is allowed. You can even run OpenGL on the SPUs to act as 3D accel.

Re:open works better

[Anonymous Coward]

OBDII sensor, $50 to $150 depending on level of detail you want.

mechanics say the machines are $TEXAS to discourage you from doing the $0.30 repairs on your own.

Re:open works better

[FLEB]

In something as simple as a console (or a phone, or an MP3 player...), there shouldn't be such a thing as "bricking" through software methods. Why can't they put in a fail-safe bootstrap ROM-- one that either reverts to the original firmware, or boots off an external device-- and have a pinhole on the back to activate it? Make it a hard-wired, unchangable ROM, and the worst that would happen is that you lose your savegames and have to spend a while on "System Update".

Of course, I understand that in the case of the Wii and other consoles, it's often more a detrimental matter to take steps to allow third-party software (as they make money from licensing), but countless consumer electronics have this problem that all of the low functions are rewritable and the device is brickable through software.

Re:open works better

[drinkypoo]

When cars don't need so much maintenance, they probably won't be so easy to open up. The only reason an electric car needs a hood that opens is so that you can show off the engine to people to prove how fucking cool you are, because there's nothing you can fix on the side of the road anyway (unless it's so broken that it's a serious hazard just going down the road.) The only reason your car's hood is so easy to open is that cars are big complicated bullshit machines rolling down the road for no purpose other than to maintain the profits at GM and Exxon. Let's face it, if you don't have an electric (I don't either) then you have a big pile of shit that runs on rubberbands, springs, and BULLSHIT. Not to mention dino juice.

With that said, batteries fucking suck. They involve heavy metals and have high production costs (in terms of actual energy, not just money.) So it's all bad :P

People who don't understand cars shouldn't try to make car analogies, part 237232345123, tonight on Slashdot...

Re:open works better

[drinkypoo]

Actually, you're crazy.

You're more or less right about the OBD-II; $200 at Kragen's or whatever gets you an OBD-II trouble code reader/clearer, so you can read standard codes. There's the rub; if you don't know what the codes mean, they won't do you any good. The standard trouble codes are useful, but automakers have implemented more and more non-standard codes which can only be pulled with the official scan tool.

You're way the hell off base about the pre-1996 cars, though. For some of them, the tool is $300, $200, $100, whatever. For many of them, the tool costs thousands. However, for almost all of them, you don't need a tool; there is almost always a way to convince the car to cough up the codes. On my 1989 Nissan 240SX you would dismount the ECU to get access to the idle adjustment pot. Twist it all the way and wait, and it starts cycling through ECU modes. One of the modes causes the codes to be flashed on the check engine light and on a pair of LEDs on the back of the ECU next to the idle adjustment. You can also build a cute little plugin module that goes into the proprietary connector and which basically has a resistor, a jumper, and a couple LEDs in it... but why? It's easy enough to pull the kick panel.

On many American cars, you actually get the trouble codes just by turning the switch between off and accessory with a certain rhythm.

Anyway, the message here is that there is probably an easier way to get the codes out, but you can almost CERTAINLY get the codes out of your truck with a box you can get from Snap-On, it's a $5000 digital O-Scope and scan tool combo. I do think it's a good $20,000 to get EVERYTHING, by which I mean ALL the modules for BASICALLY EVERYTHING including OBD-II, and that includes many of the custom OBD-II scan codes. I've used it both for reading codes and for diagnosing a throttle position sensor fault (something I need to do again at home soon, with my tek o-scope instead... it's easier with digital!) and it was a joy. And no, I don't work for snap-on. I buy craftsman tools in general... same warranty. I don't think they have a comparable device, though :P

Re:open works better

[drinkypoo]

Obviously if you want maximum tinkering the Mac is not the answer either, because most of it is closed-source. If you are a master tinkerer, you should install Debian or some BSD, so that you get ALL the source code and have ALL the control. Frankly, the mac and windows have the same problem: most of the really good stuff is undocumented. Apple has a LONG history of withholding hardware specifications needed to properly support their hardware in open source projects, a tendency which continues to this day. And don't forget the sometimes-open, sometimes-closed status of the darwin kernel source, a move intended to allow Apple to prevent people from being able to run OSX on non-apple hardware (hint: they failed.)

If Apple had all the power of Microsoft, the computing landscape would be even more bleak than it is today. Microsoft still has information on bugs from DOS 5 in their knowledge base. Apple intentionally dropped old TIL articles when they folded the TIL into the KB to attempt to hide evidence of where they treated customers like dirt.

I would say I don't know how you got modded informative, but I do know, and it's called Apple Fanboys with Modpoints.

Re:open works better

[osu-neko]

I don't normally comment on people's sigs, but since you brought it up, his sig is actually kinda stupid.

Suppose I have a friend who constantly harps on how he can fix anything on his own car and how everyone should learn how to perform regular maintenance on their own cars and save themselves money at service stations for things they could do themselves. He does this for years, constantly harping on it. And then one day, we discover he can't even change his own oil. I myself don't change my own oil, so is it ironic that I give him heck over it? Not really. I don't change my own oil, but I never said I did. He was the one always claiming it's what made him better. Nothing wrong with me decrying his dishonesty merely because I myself don't do what he claimed he was doing.

Microsoft constantly harps on its innovation, and resists any attempt to enforce the law of the land upon them as restricting their "freedom to innovate". That opens them up for anyone to criticize them on the fact that, in fact, they don't innovate. There's nothing ironic about people who don't innovate decrying someone else's dishonesty on the subject.

The fact is, both Microsoft and GNU copy ideas they see elsewhere right and left. The difference is, the GNU people are honest about it, as the sig itself acknowledges when it notes that it's their stated goal. Indeed, the GNU people have a philosophy that says this is a good idea -- when someone comes up with a better way of doing things, we should all learn from it and enjoy the benefits of this new idea. The Microsoft people say people shouldn't be allowed to do this. And the irony is, some idiots decry the GNU people for pointing out that Microsoft is doing it anyway, doing exactly what they're doing, all the while claiming to be "innovative" for doing it and criticizing others for doing the same. That's the real irony.

Re:open works better

[tehcyder]

billions of monkeys typing on computers will inevitably create a small handful that can and will consistently break your closed source world.

That inadvertently sounds like a Microsoft slogan...

Re:open works better

[brkello]

We don't need analogies to understand things that are simple. In any case, your argument just doesn't hold water. You can do whatever you want with your hardware. Just don't expect Nintendo's updates to work with how you modified your system.

Re:open works better

[GWBasic]

I have to call bullshit and a half on this line of reasoning. Lets go with a famous slashdot car analogy, that happens to fit perfectly well. My car's hood is not locked requiring a special key that only the dealer has.

My TV has plenty of open connectors. The power plug on my wall is an open standard. I'm perfectly free to plug in whatever I want.

To further your car analogy: Honda provides no support if I choose to reprogram my Civic hybrid. Yes, there are people who probably do it; but openness only goes so far! I can replace my car stereo, but expecting Honda to make their stereo in such a way that I can add custom software to it is just silly.

There are plenty of open devices that can plug into the TV. The Wii is a $250 device... Must it be open when I can find plenty of open devices to plug into my TV?

What are you going to ask for next, a way to boot Linux on a $150 GPS?

Re:open works better

[billcopc]

I'm guessing you got the E2180 ? Ya, that CPU is mad awesome for overclocking. It's a throwback to the old Celeron 300A.

I've been absolutely ape over the E7200 myself, I've yet to find one that can't do at least 3.3ghz at stock voltages, insane :)

Score

[Plazmid]

Hackers- 1 Nintendo- 0

Re:Score

[shird]

Wouldn't it be:
Hackers: 2, Nintento: 1

Re:Score

[Plazmid]

No, because the hackers defeated Nintendo's defenses.

Re:Score

[shird]

Yes - but:

Hackers defeat Zelda - 1 pt Hackers
Nintendo defends against hack - 1 pt Nintendo
Hackers defeat Nintendos defense - 1 pt Hackers

Re:Score

[Anonymous Coward]

Hackers break Wii security - 1 pt Hackers
Nintendo fails to defend against hackers - 0 pt Nintendo

Re:Score

[metanoia3]

Nintendo only gets a point if their defense works.

Re:Score

[Yvan256]

The crack had to be updated, so Nintendo's patch did work against the attack (the first).

If you only count a point when Nintendo resists, than you also only count one point for all the versions of the crack.

So it's either Nintendo 1, Hackers 2 or Nintendo 0, Hackers 1.

Re:Score

[Lisandro]

That would be "Hackers- 2 Nintendo- 1", actually...

Re:Score

[Drinking Bleach]

They can try all they want, but no matter what... the Wii will be "broken". As long as the system exists and someone has the means to test exploits on it, there will be workarounds.

Re:Score

[puddnhead7]

Naw, it's,

Hackers: 10, Nintento: 01

Re:Score

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't get it

Re:Score

[zebslash]

There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary notation, and those who do not.

Re:Score

[master5o1]

In binary it must be Hackers 1 Nintendo 0...

Re:Score

[jonaskoelker]

Given the nature of software security, I predict it will be

Nintendo - n
Hackers - n+1

For 99% of the time. In other words: Nintendo security is dead, netcraft confirms it.

Re:Score

[I cant believe its n]

There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary notation, those who do not, which gets the total up to 8. Then there is of course people similar in character to mr Johnsson from across the street. But wait, thats just 9?

Re:Score

[sgt_doom]

FINALLY....someone who can count! Props to puddnhead7....

Re:Score

[zebslash]

You obviously belong to the 10th category :)

Re:Score

[Anonymous Coward]

WOOOOSH

Please sir...

[OMNIpotusCOM]

...Wii wants some more.

wdim

[indi0144]

What does this hack means? it's just a game hack or something about real life security?

Re:wdim

[New_Age_Reform_Act]

It allows you to run any type of code in the Wii, let's say, Linux.

Re:wdim

[MrMage]

Well, depends on who you ask. Nintendo will tell you it's a massive threat, and while unsigned code can be, it's not likely.

The attack on the twilight hack was probably brought forth by the new found popularity for the Homebrew Channel, which brings homebrew software to the Wii using masses (Similar to PSP Custom Firmwares or Jail Broke iPhones).

Re:wdim

[assassinator42]

The build date on the update is March 6, before the Homebrew Channel and before an app to pirate virtual console/WiiWare games was released. If these things influenced their decision to actually release it, I don't know.

Re:wdim

[CODiNE]

I dream of the day I can host my legal Wii games on the server and select one on startup. Wii Ware and the Virtual Console are steps in the right direction, I hope game companies keep moving ahead. They already made the "mistake" of making the Wiimotes and Wii Fit bluetooth devices, and it didn't kill their system sales, so let's continue the openness.

Re:wdim

[AuMatar]

You'll never due that, due to bandwidth and space. You don't run wiiware and VC games off the server, that would be extremely expensive for Nintendo, and have huge load times. They're downloaded to your machine. You know that long annoying time of watching mario hit coins? YOu're downloading then.

In addition- why the hell would you want this? I can understand wanting a disc changer, but why would you want the games stored under someone else's control, where either a bug, a data loss, or malice by the company can make you unable to play it? Owning media is a good thing.

Re:wdim

[Cley Faye]

The attack on the twilight hack was probably brought forth by the new found popularity for the Homebrew Channel, which brings homebrew software to the Wii using masses (Similar to PSP Custom Firmwares or Jail Broke iPhones). If that was the case, the update would have done something to the homebrew channel, but when the update installed it only removed the twilight hack that was hanging here, leaving the homebrew channel alone...

Re:wdim

[Qalthos]

I was reading this as him hosting his games on a local server, within his network, thus making storage and bandwidth concerns almost negligible these days. I don't personally know what kind of sizes these games are, but I would imagine that they're small enough to comfortably stream over 54Mb/s.

Re:wdim

[AuMatar]

You'd imagine wrong. Games fill DVDs even on the wii. I have some computer games that clock in at 20 GB.

Re:wdim

[CODiNE]

Alright dude, my bad... I forget that "THE server" usually doesn't mean your own. :-) I meant on MY server.

Re:wdim

[Free the Cowards]

Size and bandwidth are only loosely related. Most DVD drives are not capable of outperforming ethernet, or even good wifi, so the speed of the LAN should be no problem.

Re:wdim

[Qalthos]

Seriously? VC games fill a DVD? Or are you referring to entire Wii games, something I could easily see being harder to stream.

Easter Egg

[ProdigySim]

Take note of the nice easter egg they left in for Nintendo to find:

The Twilight Hack Song
---------
This was a triumph.
I'm making note here:
HACKED AGAIN.
It's hard to overstate our satisfaction.

Team Twiizers
We do what we must because we can.
For the good of all of us, except the ones who pirate.
But there's no sense crying over every quick plug.
We just keep on trying while there's still one more bug.
And the homebrew comes back, and we make a neat hack.
For the people whose Wiis want new life.

I'm not even angry.
I'm being so sincere right now.
Even though they broke the hack and patched it.
And fixed IOS30.
And broke every fake signed disc out there.
As they failed it hurt because...
They were attacking homebrew!
Now these quick hack fixes have some beautiful holes,
So we found them fast and easily met our goals.
And I'm glad we got burned.
Think of all the things we learned.
For the people whose Wiis want new life!

Go ahead and patch it.
I think I'd like to have some fun.
Maybe you'll find an undisclosed bug.
Maybe that huge one.
That was a joke, haha, fat chance!
Anyway, this homebrew's great. It's also legal to use.
Look at me still talking, when there's hacking to do.
It might take three months,
but they'll patch this one too.
I've experiments to run, there's reversing to be done.
On the people whose Wiis want new life.

And believe me the Wiis want new life!
I'm busy hacking and they want new life.
I feel FANTASTIC and they'll get new life.
While you're dying they'll still be alive.
And when you're dead they'll still have some life.
STILL ALIVE,

still alive.

Re:Easter Egg

[Anonymous Coward]

Jonathan Coulton would be rolling over in his grave - and he's still alive!

Re:Easter Egg

[Opportunist]

Glad they're better at hacking than rhyming. I mean, imagine it was the other way 'round...

It's like Star Wars

[Anonymous Coward]

- A New Hack
- The Big N Strikes Back
- Return of the Twilight Hack

Re:It's like Star Wars

[Anonymous Coward]

So you mean we'll have something like "Revenge of the Lawyers" ?

Re:FOSS RULEZ! HEIL HITLER!

[Anonymous Coward]

That's another one of those twitter sockpuppets.

Anyway, you can't check the "anonymous" box if you have "bad" or "terrible" karma because it is not available. To post as AC you need to be logged out.

They now charge for the Internet Channel

[QuantumG]

For a while, Opera was giving away their browser for Wii users. Now you have to pay if you want to access the Internet using your Wii, and Opera is your only choice. There's been some talk about Firefox on the Wii but, as far as I can tell, that's all it is: talk.

So yeah, buying a Wii (and most every other console) is just buying a pair of handcuffs.

Hopefully PCs will never ever be this locked down.

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[EvolutionsPeak]

My gf and I bought a pair of handcuffs last week and I have to say that they are much more fun than my PC.

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[Anonymous Coward]

So yeah, buying a Wii (and most every other console) is just buying a pair of handcuffs.

Hopefully PCs will never ever be this locked down.

Well, I guess that's why they call it a gaming console.

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[QuantumG]

Thanks for taking time out from your sordid sexual experimentation to post on Slashdot about it.

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[Anonymous Coward]

I will say (and I will say it anonymously, as even the vaguest breath of this opinion is karmic suicide on Slashdot), your sense of entitlement is quite overinflated. You seem to be under the impression that anything with silicon in it must be open to hacking and supported in such a hackable state by the manufacturers . If you can't run $os_of_choice on it for God only knows what reason (you haven't run it enough on your PC?), it is not only Flawed(tm) but immoral.

Seriously. It's a game console. It's not a $250 shortcut to a PC. Why on earth do you (I mean you, specifically, apparently an ardent PC user) want a web browser on a console? You can't just use a console to play games and a PC to do work?

And if you ARE one of the elusive homebrewers who actually want to make new games for the Wii (not Yet Another Damned Emulator), you are aware that the Wiimote's had fairly stable drivers for most major operating systems for some time now? I mean, if you actually want to develop for the Wii's unique features, I can get behind that the whole way. It's just that you don't need to hack the Wii to do so.

Just my opinion. While everyone else is struggling to figure out how to play old games from their past consoles on the Wii (in addition to their PC, XBox360, PS3, etc, etc), I'm having fun playing Wii games on the Wii and doing work on my rather a bit open PC.

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[Anonymous Coward]

your the one with Dome in there email address LOL

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[Anonymous Coward]

MOD PARENT UP (seriously, my dad wrote that)

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[Yosho]

For a while, Opera was giving away their browser for Wii users. Now you have to pay if you want to access the Internet using your Wii, and Opera is your only choice. There's been some talk about Firefox on the Wii but, as far as I can tell, that's all it is: talk.

You realize that Nintendo and Opera have always been perfectly up front and clear about their intentions with this regard, right? They had announced that Opera for the Wii would be free for only a limited time before it was even released.

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think you have a girlfriend. Enjoy your handcuffs!

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[AKAImBatman]

For a while, Opera was giving away their browser for Wii users. Now you have to pay if you want to access the Internet using your Wii, and Opera is your only choice.

And your point is... ? Nintendo and Opera made no secret about the fact that the Internet Channel was going to cost money. The reason why it was free for a time was that the browser was in public beta testing. The early testers had to put up with constant crashes, freezes, corrupted renderings, and a rather primitive user interface. But Opera used the feedback on the browser to create the superior final product. Those who had participated in the beta got to keep the browser at no cost.

So get your facts straight, eh? You made it sound like they did something evil.

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[Assembler]

My gf and I bought a pair of handcuffs last week and I have to say that they are much more fun than my PC. ... a very different form of lockdown than what Nintendo is providing

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[GroeFaZ]

Yes, but are they more fun than a Wii?

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[Anonymous Coward]

Opera used to cost $30, or you could use an ad supported version for free, if I remember correctly.

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, for multiplayer games.

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[douji]

need pix. :D

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[hedleyroos]

What they forgot to mention is that the Wii will be officially released in most countries AFTER that period has expired.

I did still but Opera for Wii though - I kinda like Opera Mini for my mobile, so consider that my donation.

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[Anonymous Coward]

Your grandfather?
No girlfriends here, you insensitive clod!

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[neumayr]

So, even if you've downloaded Opera while it was still free, you can't use it anymore unless you upgrade to the paid-for version

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[Minwee]

And, much like Opera, it's not over until...

Oh, never mind. You can just fill in your own joke here.

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[Anonymous Coward]

You, sir, are most definitely on the wrong website.

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[Opportunist]

Hmm... do the controllers have a rumble pack?

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[fyrewulff]

No, once you downloaded it's unlocked to that Wii. Forever.

Apparently a game or two also install it for free.. I've heard Super Paper Mario will install Opera.

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[Hitto]

Yeah, how dare they! My video games console only plays video games and that's a SCAM! It should double as a fax machine and a fridge, as well as run unsigned code!

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[jjinco33]

Pics or it didn't happen.

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[NorQue]

And what countries would that be? Even Europe, who is usually the last to get Nintendo stuff, already had the Wii when Opera was in open beta.

Re:They now charge for the Internet Channel

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course they are...

Until they release Wii Sex. Wii Fit was only the beginning of the end.

The only thing that is apparent to me...

[Anonymous Coward]

...is why it's Saturday night and no one in this thread got invited to any parties. :P

Re:The only thing that is apparent to me...

[master5o1]

Slashdotters going to parties?

Re:The only thing that is apparent to me...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not true I got two party invites last night. In Final Fantasy XI.

Oh, never mind.

Nintendo's intentions

[grantek]

You know, I don't think Nintendo were really serious about "blocking homebrew on the Wii once and for all" with this update. From what I've read the system files were datestamped months ago, implying rigorous testing and a philosophy above all of not bricking any wiis even where the exploit was installed. Given that effort, I don't think they could have been stupid enough to think they were permanently closing anything. I think it's just a token effort to say they disapprove of doing things the non-Nintendo way (a fair enough position if you're proud of your product), and maintaining a healthy level of FUD about third-party code that isn't based on any official API for the wii.

Re:Nintendo's intentions

[Andrew Kismet]

I wish scores went above 5 so I could've modded this up.
They said that homebrew save files will be deleted, publicly, prior to providing the update link; they basically said "We're going to eliminate anything that could cause system instability, so if you want to keep it, transfer it to an external device. We really don't want to brick your console." No reasons regarding piracy were given, although they probably express a healthy level of awareness and paranoia about the possibility of homebrew leading to piracy.
All in all, Nintendo generally seems intelligent about this sort of thing. They're trying to balance the happiness of the power-users and modders with their corporate interests and the possibility of piracy.

Re:Nintendo's intentions

[rsmith-mac]

FYI, the date stamps were read backwards. It was June 3rd of 2008, not March 8th of 2008.

Re:Nintendo's intentions

[rsmith-mac]

Boy I wish Slashdot had a "check for stupid" button, then I wouldn't have written down March 8th; the assumption was March 6th.

Re:Nintendo's intentions

[Mattsson]

I think it's just a token effort to say they disapprove of doing things the non-Nintendo way So, basically, Nintendo is Apple Light? =)

and maintaining a healthy level of FUD about third-party code that isn't based on any official API for the wii. I'd say it's unhealthy FUD, since I won't be buying any Wii as long as I must fear that they might push an update that make me unable to use my console the way I want to.
Give me official support for homebrew software and I'll get one...
Keep pushing stupid stuff like this, no deal.

Re:Nintendo's intentions

[Original Replica]

They said that homebrew save files will be deleted, publicly, prior to providing the update link; they basically said "We're going to eliminate anything that could cause system instability, so if you want to keep it, transfer it to an external device. We really don't want to brick your console." ...All in all, Nintendo generally seems intelligent about this sort of thing. They're trying to balance the happiness of the power-users and modders with their corporate interests

Nintendo is still keeping in mind what makes the Wii so successful, fun. They know that modding is fun, they know that bricking a console in anti-fun.

Re:Nintendo's intentions

[grantek]

I should clarify, I meant "healthy FUD" in terms of Nintendo, not the users. It's still FUD and I think all FUD is evil, but they're asserting a bit of control to remind everyone that it's meant to be a platform, and that they aren't in the business of selling Linux boxes or something that becomes associated with "safe and easy to pirate". I still respect them for maintaining quality above all and warning users with the hack installed that they don't have to upgrade.

Re:Nintendo's intentions

[Mattsson]

They could do that with a nag-screen at boot.
"You have unsanctioned software installed! You might experience a non-Nintendo sanctioned experience. Beware!"
They don't have to inconvenience their customers just because they want remind them that they bought a game-console, not something that you should tinker with.

Re:Mod parent Up

[Anonymous Coward]

+1 Dad?

Re:Yes, but...

[kevind23]

No, no it won't. Nothing runs vista. It runs Linux.

What can you do with this hack?

[d_jedi]

Seriously.
Because a lot of times "homebrew" is merely a code word for "illegally copied games" (oh, wait.. let's call them "backups", yeah.. that sounds much better).

If it allows you to write your own software for the Wii (is there an SDK publicly available?).. well, then we're talking and this is something to get excited about.

Re:What can you do with this hack?

[cigawoot]

Seriously. Because a lot of times "homebrew" is merely a code word for "illegally copied games" (oh, wait.. let's call them "backups", yeah.. that sounds much better).

If it allows you to write your own software for the Wii (is there an SDK publicly available?).. well, then we're talking and this is something to get excited about.

1) Homebrew doesn't mean "illegally copied games."

2) There is a sort of crude SDK out there, google it.

Please, before you open your mouth understand that not all homebrewers are pirates. We pay for our VC/WiiWare games (or just choose not to use the service). We just want to do MORE then what Nintendo is willing to do, like playing out of region games (Using Gecko Region Free) or other things as people write software, such as a POP3 email client, emulators, Doom, etc.

Re:What can you do with this hack?

[vux984]

Please, before you open your mouth understand that not all homebrewers are pirates. We pay for our VC/WiiWare games (or just choose not to use the service). We just want to do MORE then what Nintendo is willing to do, like playing out of region games (Using Gecko Region Free) or other things as people write software, such as a POP3 email client, emulators, Doom, etc.

How likely are you to buy a VC title when you've already got the ROM file and an emulator running?

Re:What can you do with this hack?

[yamiyasha]

Please, before you open your mouth understand that not all homebrewers are pirates. We pay for our VC/WiiWare games (or just choose not to use the service). We just want to do MORE then what Nintendo is willing to do, like playing out of region games (Using Gecko Region Free) or other things as people write software, such as a POP3 email client, emulators, Doom, etc.

How likely are you to buy a VC title when you've already got the ROM file and an emulator running?

Same as how much I would, if I owned the original cart and the working system

Re:What can you do with this hack?

[vux984]

Same as how much I would, if I owned the original cart and the working system

I could see buying the VC version if you owned the original cart and working system because that it a royal pain to setup.

But if you've already got the game running on the wii in emulation, why would anyone pay $5-$10 to that you can get the game running on the Wii in emulation, except to clear their conscience.

And even to clear one's conscience, if one has "500 NES" ROMS, they aren't going to drop $2500-$5000 into the VC to 'legitimize them' even if Nintendo did make them available.

Re:What can you do with this hack?

[marcansoft]

Let's set thing straight. So far, homebrew on the Wii is an entirely different playfield from copied games. To play games on DVD-Rs, you need to hardware mod your drive, period.

Now, when you get to Virtual Console/WiiWare piracy, things get a little muddier. Unfortunately, if you can run homebrew, then you can effectively pirate VC games, because the terribly broken security means that you can pretty much just install them and they'll work. This might change in the future, when Nintendo fixes the problems.

Our (Team Twiizers') goal is to enable homebrew on the Wii, not piracy. We're not going to go out of our way to prevent piracy, but we also try to come up with methods of running homebrew that don't directly enable piracy. However, we can't work around the fact that, ultimately, if you can run unsigned code, then that code might be a game. We do have the advantage that pirates don't really have much of clue overall (so far), which is why we haven't seen a Wii ISO loader that can run games from an SD card yet. We sure as heck aren't going to write it, but if someone does, there's not much we can do about it.

As for homebrew, there is certainly a public, free, open source SDK available based on the GNU toolchain and an open source library to access the Wii hardware. In fact, most of the Wii's hardware is supported. Full graphics (though the API is mostly undocumented, it's all there), Wii Remote, SD card access, Gamecube pads, networking (WiFi or ethernet), USB mass storage, partial sound (no hardware acceleration yet), etc. See devkitpro for the toolchain and wiibrew for the community wiki.

Re:What can you do with this hack?

[ThePhilips]

[...] a lot of times "homebrew" is merely a code word for "illegally copied games" [...]

LOL.

You DO realize that Wii has no demos nor other way to preview games???

After buying R4DS I felt really really relieved - it was like I managed to return all the money I have wasted on number of overrated shovelware titles there. Now I buy games intelligently - because most of the time this are the games I already finished.

I can only welcome cracking of Wii games since it would add extra pressure on game producers to actually make simpler better games people would be willing to pay money for. If many people would be able to try game before buying, then sales of shovelware would suffer enormously. Something demos were invented to address.

And frankly conspiracy theory of a day I'd say the pact is in place: between game publishers and Nintendo to prevent any kind of demos on Wii - to keep people buying (even by mistake) all the shovelware which you see on the shelves in abundance.

Homebrew - banzaii!! Cracking - banzaii!!!

Re:What can you do with this hack?

[Opportunist]

You know there's a difference between being able to and doing, right? Just because I happen to have the tools necessary to rape women doesn't mean I do it.

I agree that someone who brags about having 500 NES Roms will most likely not care too much about "real" homebrew software and priorizes the aspect that unlocking your console enables you to play copies.

I, for one, modded my consoles for a rather different reason: Because I can. I don't even have a lot of games (and that which I have, I have the original of). Still, every console I have is modded in some way. Because that's what makes consoles interesting for me: The fact that you can do that.

Most of my consoles just sit there once I accomplished that. I have a softmodded XBox somewhere which I bought just to show that softmodding is possible (that was a while before it became common knowledge). I think it even came with a game, I'd have to check.

Now I'm working on a chiip. Why? Because it's fun to mod. I'm fairly sure that Wii will soon suffer the same fate of the XBox once it works.

Re:What can you do with this hack?

[cigawoot]

I've spent 130 dollars on VC software for games I like. I use Snes9x and other emulators to play games that aren't currently avaliable for the Virtual Console, such as Super Mario RPG, etc. I also own a sizable collection of NES and SNES carts, playingw 5-10 bucks for each one to play them again on my Wii is insaine anyway. Anyway, I don't want this degrading into a debate if using homebrew emulators with games you own is piracy.

Re:What can you do with this hack?

[markkezner]

You DO realize that Wii has no demos nor other way to preview games??? They do offer the Nintendo channel, which gives you a streaming video preview of some titles. Your other options include youtube, renting the game from Blockbuster first or Googling up a game review.

Re:What can you do with this hack?

[trytoguess]

An ISO loader doesn't sound very useful considering how many if not most Wii games would be too big to fit inside SD cards. One wonders if this hack would theoredically make it possible to play games from DVDRs aka. "backup" games. If you don't want to answer since my question is somewhat supporting piracy I totally understad (though if it means anything I don't have, or desire a WII).

Re:What can you do with this hack?

[Jerf]

If you are sophisticated enough to load pirated ROMs onto a card for your DS, then you are sophisticated enough to read reviews and figure out whether something is "shovelware" before you buy it. Since the Internet got big, I have not yet bought a true dud of a game. I've taken a couple risks, not all of which panned out, but I knew what I was getting into.

(Yes, you can't just take the score for granted, either, but I also assume that if you can load software onto your DS, you are sophisticated enough to see through that, too. I play a lot of games that only get an 8/10, docked a point or two for "niche appeal", and wouldn't care to play many 9.5/10 games. Again, I don't have trouble with that.)

No excuses.

Fatal flaw

[puddnhead7]

"Only days after Nintendo shipped Wii Menu 3.3, which stopped the Twilight Hack from working, the team lead by Bushing brought out a new version of the Homebrew enabling hack for the Nintendo Wii using the Zelda Game and a hacked save game."

This tells us that the wii allows content executables to run at a root/system level of elevated privilege.

No matter what Nintento does, they have no way to remove this security hole in way that would break the massive distribution of popular older software like Zelda.

The least ineffective solution at Nintendo's disposal would be to only run external executables in an isolated virtual machine.

Even that would suffer the same flaw. If the virtual machine is sufficient to run a game like Zelda with middling level demanding 3d graphics, it can offer enough resources to run a user provided, OS alternative.

The only solution I can see would be for Nintendo to implement a hash checking method in addition to VM architecture. The most effective method being copying to local storage before running and then running a hash check independant of the game media.

I don't know much about wii hardware, but I'm guessing it doesn't have enough storage (or at least storage fast enough to be acceptable for consumer expectation) for this to work.

So, it doesn't matter what Nintendo does, the wii will forever be a hackable platform.

Re:Fatal flaw

[marcansoft]

Wii games do run with a separate CPU taking care of security. There's a permissions system. However, said system is broken enough that we have 4 or 5 privilege escalation methods stowed away if we need them. Which means that the only real barrier to hacking the Wii is getting any code to run, which (practically speaking) means exploiting games via savegames. We'll always find one more bug in one more game.

Hooray for the arms race!

[Anonymous Coward]

entea

What is the point?

[Werrismys]

Why do ppl insist on hacking PSP, Wii, etc? They are closed platforms. You don't lie closed - just don't buy them. Especially PSP hacking seems troublesome enough to avoid the thing altogether

Re:What is the point?

[BurgEnder]

Simple. Even though I know I'll get modded down for saying this - Yes, it does open the door for people to do what they want with what they purchased(running *nix/bsd, or coding your own program for the box) which I agree you should be able to do, but everyone I've ever known who has hacked their console has done it to play pirated/burned game software.

Re:What is the point?

[Fross]

Because people like modifying things and see what they can make them do. This is the hacker ethic.

Make your car go faster? Or run on vegetable oil perhaps? Changing your fridge into a computer cooling system? Messing with a synthesizer's innards to get some sounds it never had before? Improving an item by doing something with it the original manufacturers never considered.

For any reason from souping-up, to making it more envrionmentally friendly, to just off-the-wall crazy, hacking is about repurposing something because it suits you. It's inventing, innovation, creativity. If you can't see the point in these, then you don't understand hacking and I wonder what you're doing here.

For the Wii and PSP specifically, they are awesome platforms (and unique in their features), which inspire people. They are obviously having ideas for games, or uses for the consoles, that they are not available commercially. These homebrew guys have to work their own way in as the manufacturers have chosen to make dev kits and release methods prohibitively expensive (tens of thousands of dollars), so kudos to them for doing so. I hope they continue to use homebrew to make the next great set of applications and games.

If you want a comparison of how a manufacturer can get it right, look at what is going to happen with iPhone development over the next 6 months. With a free SDK and cheap way to distribute apps commercially, there will be a LOT of people eager to join in, and Apple will get a ton of apps and even some revenue, from doing this.

Whether the companies embrace homebrew or not, it will always be there one way or another. They should recognise it as a pool of talent and creativity and allow it the space to grow.

Re:What is the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

The GP2x, which is pretty much a homebrew-friendly PSP with a touch screen that runs Linux, has been selling rather well for such a niche product.

Re:What is the point?

[Spad]

Because it's there.

Re:What is the point?

[neumayr]

Especially in the case of the PSP there's a lot of incentive to "fix" the firmware.
Not only do you get a lot more out of that pretty impressive hardware, it also improves its capabilities in regards to its intended purpose - games just load a lot faster from Memory Sticks than from UMD, and not having to power an optical drive improves battery life.

Re:What is the point?

[Opportunist]

Why did people insist in going to the moon? It's not like there's anything to gain there (except bragging rights, which is why the countries involved did it, but it's a completely different matter for the pioneers who did the foundation work).

Because it's there, and because it's a challenge. Sure, unlike the moon consoles are an artificial challenge. But still heaps more real than beating a computer game.

Re:What is the point?

[Anonymous Coward]

Troublesome? Maybe for a certain portion of the populace. An hour of reading online and I cut a single trace on a circuit board in a battery, downloaded a utility, and had a hacked PSP. Now I have a PDF reader and Comic Book reader. I have the ability to play videos streamed from my home server anywhere I have WiFI access. I eventually purchased a 20 dollar device that soft mods the batteries to assist when working on friends systems. Now had there never been any drm in the first place I would have bought one of these toys much sooner. But given the fact that if I was so inclined I could download just about any game I'd want for free now I understand Sony's decision to attempt some level of control over the platform.

There is no alternative

[quadrox]

I would love to rely on open platforms instead of closed ones. The problem is, they don't exist. Except for the PC and probably some very few mobile/other devices there are no open hardware platforms that I can chose over a closed platform, especially with consoles.

So obviously I'll take the next best closed platform and hack it. I have no choice, because these companies won't give me a choice.

The only way to make companies sell open platforms is to complain loudly and hack the current systems in order to show them that we want open platforms, or at least viable open alternatives. Just not doing anything is not going to achieve anything.

Only homebrew?

[AbRASiON]

Does this allow you to play imported or backed up games or only homebrew, I'm still not entirely sure what the point of it is?

Re:Only homebrew?

[rsmith-mac]

It allows you to do the following:

1) Play pure homebrew from SD/USB
2) Play games from other regions on legitimate (pressed) discs
3) Play pirated Virtual Console/WiiWare games

And with a ModChip to keep the DVD drive from telling the Wii that a burnt disc is inside:

4) Play homebrew from burnt discs
5) Play pirated games with modified files

For obvious reasons, Nintendo is worried about #3 and #5.

Re:Only homebrew?

[AbRASiON]

Interesting, I'd heard there was some kind of iso loader to run copied games themselves but clearly not - probably best in Nintendos favour to boot.

grumble grumble grumble

[dodecalogue]

I believe a really good method for counteracting the lockdown efforts would be to demonstrate that by a LONG shot, the hacks are being used for homebrew, and impressive, innovative and heavily worked-on homebrew, at that. Discourage piracy/game-trading on your own, show mom and dad that you're "taking glassblowing to become the next Chihuly, no really."

Admittedly this would be a simple google-search, but can anyone present links to, let's say, 5 homebrewed titles, offering, let's say, at least 10 hours of estimated gameplay each? I'd love to know of anything on that scale being made entirely third party. However, I feel much more inclined to believe that the hacking is indeed being used just for piracy, with the occasional half-assed games/atlerations of commercial titles (LONG LINK IS LONG) and demos, and that makes me very sad.

However, I still favor an open system over the alternative.

Re:grumble grumble grumble

[neumayr]

You have a point, there aren't many homebrew games worth spending ten hours on. I do think there are more than five though.. But I don't think it's because all those hacks are truly intended for piracy, with homebrew just being an alibi.

Rather, I think it's for the same reason there aren't all that many opensource games that meet that requirement either. I suppose making games is a very different from making the usual kind of opensource software. It requires more immediate communication, a fixed core team, and, as far as I can tell the biggest problem, it requires artists. Programmers usually aren't very successful when creating their own artwork..

Re:grumble grumble grumble

[ThePhilips]

offering, let's say, at least 10 hours of estimated gameplay each?

Most of such homebrew games are ports of well-known titles from other platforms.

e.g. Tetris. I'm sure I made already - not hours - weeks of game play on my DS. Yet, it is not yet available officially on Wii.

Seeing how open games strive on PCs (and Linux in particular) I can easily imagine that if Nintendo had opened up the platform, many non-commercial titles would have appeared.

I'm too, you know, started programming by doing games. It is quite general observation that people code what they are like doing at the moment. Younger programmers are of course play lots of games - and consequently like to code the games too. But consoles (being huge business) naturally try to prevent that: they need dumb customers who would buy all the shovelware you throw at them. People with intellect who like to tinker with stuff are of no interest to them.

Re:grumble grumble grumble

[neumayr]

[...] they need dumb customers who would buy all the shovelware you throw at them. People with intellect who like to tinker with stuff are of no interest to them. That does look like a pretty self-serving attitude.
By extension, games basically being entertainment, you're saying that people who listen music and watch movies without expending the time and energy needed to create their own are dumb customers of an industry that has no interest catering to "people with intellect".

Admittedly it's not quite fair to take your assertion that far, but it's what your attitude seems to come down to.

Re:grumble grumble grumble

[Anonymous Coward]

Since his attitude is essentially a giant cover-up for game piracy, why bother dissecting it? Dismiss it for the drivel it is.

Why I can't stomach this whole homebrew debacle :

[Hitto]

Masturbating in the toilet is stealing money from the prostitutes you would otherwise have hired.

$250 for four players vs. $2,500 for four players

[tepples]

It's a game console. It's not a $250 shortcut to a PC. Compare $250 for one console to $2,500 for four PCs.

Why on earth do you (I mean you, specifically, apparently an ardent PC user) want a web browser on a console? You can't just use a console to play games and a PC to do work? I want to develop video games with the expectation that they'll be played on a monitor larger than 19 inches diagonal. You see, four people can't easily fit around a 19 inch monitor, and I can't expect families to afford a separate PC for each person. If home theater PCs were more common, I wouldn't care as much about the homebrew scene.

Homebrew clones of WiiWare games

[tepples]

For obvious reasons, Nintendo is worried about #3 [illegally copied Wii Shop Channel games] and #5 [illegally copied Wii discs]. Nintendo is also worried about #1. If some homebrew developer ports a GPL tetromino game or another GPL tetromino game to the Wii, then Nintendo won't be able to sell as many copies of Hudson Soft's tetromino game on Wii Shop Channel.

That's a big "nearly"

[tepples]

I would say that "nearly anything that compiles on Linux" classifies as homebrew, don't you? Does rejecting just about anything that depends on OpenGL fall under your "nearly"?

What's the open alternative?

[tepples]

Why do ppl insist on hacking PSP, Wii, etc? They are closed platforms. You don't lie closed - just don't buy them. Which handheld gaming platform is popular and open? Which gaming platform designed to be connected to a large monitor is popular and open?

Excuse me?

[ToasterMonkey]

Wow, why is the parent +5 Insightful? Moderators just out there circle-jerking now?

Wow .. you just described my absolute hatred of Apple and their philosophy. WHAT do you consider their philosophy to be? Please explain, because I think you are horribly misguided. 'Absolute hatred' is a little strong for a company that makes computers and software, no?

What you have here is two distict, yet separate groups:
The idiot-proof, lowest-common-denominator, who wants things to work (and simply).
The more adventurous, possibly more knowledgeable individuals who like options. From WHAT are these two groups defined? The whole world? Care to provide any reasoning for this egregious over-generalization?
Are you SURE there might not exist a group of people in the world who are "more adventurous, possibly more knowledgeable individuals who like options" AND "want things to work (and simply)"? In fact, is there anything wrong with "idiot-proofing", or appealing to the lowest-common-denominator? You might be surprised how much more efficiently things run when you employ those two concepts.

I will NEVER purchase an iAnything. Why? Because I like to tweak, tinker, and have options. Hopefully, someday when you're older, you'll put aside your prejudices and open your eyes up. Maybe even explore stuff you know absolutely nothing about. Well, one can hope.

The problem with a locked-down, "Do it our way only" philosophy is it encourages laziness and contentment. Who's got this "Do it our way only" philosophy? APPLE?! Please, do explain!

How many of us got curious, or felt adventurous enough, to tinker with something technological (broken or not) just to figure out how it works (or even make it better or more suited to our needs)? Which, through trial and error, only encouraged us to venture out further and learn even more when our curiousity was piqued? If we never had the oportunity to break something or toy with the horizons on our own, we'd never be as knowledgeable in a technological fashion as we are. (Referring here to fellow /.'ers). I sure as hell did, and that curiosity is one of the reasons I bought a Mac (oh, the horror). Did it rot my brain cells, give me cancer, stifle my creativity, or end my curiosity?

NO.

I urge you to search for any prejudices you may harbor and try to see the world as more than black and white. It might be very beneficial to you, in areas much less trivial than deciding which high-tech gadgets to play with (as if you must artificially limit yourself to only those gadgets who's vendor's "philosophy" agrees with you in the first place, sheesh).

Re:$250 for four players vs. $2,500 for four playe

[Anonymous Coward]

Compare $250 for one console to $2,500 for four PCs. So... you're complaining that PCs are more expensive than consoles? Well... sure, I suppose you're right. I fail to see how that's relevant to the discussion, unless you're whining that you should be entitled to everything for free because... well, I'm sure you have a reason. Operating system notwithstanding, of course.

I want to develop video games with the expectation that they'll be played on a monitor larger than 19 inches diagonal. You see, four people can't easily fit around a 19 inch monitor, and I can't expect families to afford a separate PC for each person. If home theater PCs were more common, I wouldn't care as much about the homebrew scene. Most modern TVs sold in the past few years have at least a VGA input in addition to normal inputs. My brother's five-year-old CRT TV has always had a VGA input he's used for MythTV purposes, and he doesn't have anywhere near a "home theater PC" setup. You don't need a "home theater PC", whatever that is, to do that.

Why is this here?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the hell do people post this? If you want to do homebrew on your Wii you really shouldn't be publicizing it.

Re:$250 for four players vs. $2,500 for four playe

[tepples]

So... you're complaining that PCs are more expensive than consoles? No. I'm complaining that PC games don't support four players on one screen, unlike console games. Of course a PC will be more expensive than a similarly powered game console; it doesn't have the software subsidy. But that justifies the difference between a $300 console and a $600 PC, not the difference between a $300 console and a LAN of four $600 PCs. If you have a game like Bomberman, where all players can see all of the arena at once, what justifies giving each player his own view of the action?

Most modern TVs sold in the past few years have at least a VGA input in addition to normal inputs. Then why don't more PC games take advantage of it?

You don't need a "home theater PC", whatever that is, to do that. I define a "home theater PC" as any PC connected to a monitor with a viewable image at least 15 inches tall. (That's a 25 inch full screen or a 32 inch wide screen.)

max tinterking

[krischik]

I have used home made PC systems since I send my Atari Mega ST into pension.

I have used used Linux since I send OS/2 into pension.

But then: I have not compiled a Kernel - well since I am married to be honest. Not only because I would not find the time - but because it became to complicated. An endless row of options and always the danger of making the system unbootable.

On my last home made PC systems the only hardware stuff I did (after initial set-up) was more memory and a new graphic card. Have a look into the inside of a MacPro (http://www.apple.com/macpro/design.html). Those two extensions are a lot easer on a MacPro. So is adding another harddrive.

What else to do?

New CPU? By the time you want a new CPU the sockel / socket / whatever needed by you main board are out of production.

New main board? Needs new memory (bus speed), new graphic card (AGP 2x, 4x, 8x PCIe...), new hard drive (ATA, SATA). technologie moves so fast - when you need to / want to replace your main board you might as well replace the hole system.

On the other hand: No matter how much tinkering I did: Skype on Linux did not work with the Webcam. But it worked out of the box on my Wives iMac.

And this is the final point: You don't need as much tinkering if it just works.

Martin

Re:max tinterking

[drinkypoo]

And this is the final point: You don't need as much tinkering if it just works.

No, the final point is that OSX is a crappy OS to tinker with, and you said it was a great one. In actuality Apple goes out of their way to prevent you from making useful modifications, and they don't give you all the source code anyway.

P.S. all the hardware upgrade stuff here is irrelevant handwaving. Being able to upgrade the hardware or not has nothing to do with windows vs osx vs linux. You have failed to distract from the point that your main point was basically empty-headed.

P.P.S. I have owned every generation of PC since the PC-1, and I was an Amigan (pee on your Atari.) I've also owned older systems like Apollo and RT-PC. And you do not know what you are talking about.

Ebonics Fix-Up

[djdavetrouble]

It is funny to read comments in slashdot where people is talking out of their asses.

It is funny to read comments up in slashdot where people is talking out of they asses.

There, fixed that for you.

Twilight Sales

[Anonymous Coward]

If they were smart, they'd just re-release Twilight for an extra $50. The cracks possible with this game will keep it a hot title for a long time to come...