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Surviving Outsourcing?
An anonymous reader writes "As some of you may know, HP is negotiating with DPWN, parent company of DHL, to take on outsourced parts of DPWN's global IT Services business unit. As a worker in that business unit, I and my colleagues are part of what HP is negotiating for. I moved into my current position fresh out of university and so far haven't experienced corporate shake-ups or outsourcing initiatives. I enjoy my work and the opportunities that go with it, which is why this announcement was so distressing to me at first. Then I began hearing about the opportunities HP has internally. If you've been through a similar experience, what advice would you give for someone being outsourced? Should I 'ride the wave' and join the new company and culture, or dust off the old CV/resume?"
It's always a good idea to have the CV up to date, but I don't see why you shouldn't ride the wave for a while until you can determine just how good the surf is.
If you don't like them, you can always leave then.
You should do both. Face it. The reason the shake up is there in the first place is because someone in the food chain isn't making enough money and wants to change things around so that they make more.
This likely will result in a possibility you come on to the new company... or not. Remember a lot depends on how much you are willing to accept as a reduction in pay which ultimately will happen at some point.
In the event that they don't want to pay you what you believe your worth, they will go for the lesser costing options (other people), and you would ultimately be out looking elsewhere.
Been there; done that.
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we are becoming a separate nation, hell, world on the internet. by 'we' i mean all of us here.
join it. be flexible. go with the flow. accept outsourcing yourself. if there are people outsourcing, there needs to be firms accepting outsourcing. go post a listing in elance - they post anything there these days, from technical writing to cad/cam. post in other agency sites. make a name for yourself.
Read radical news here
Here's how it works when you get outsourced: .. you do it.
1. You have your job and you do it.
2. You/Your section get outsourced.
3. You have your new job, which is the same as your old job, and
If you weren't dusting off your CV/Resume at your current job, why would you suddenly do it now? You're going to get the same money for doing the same tasks that your currently doing. If nothing is broke, most likely no-one is going to try and "fix it". You're likely to see less change than if your bosses boss resigned and was replaced by someone new.
Disclaimer: I worked in IT and my area was outsourced. After a little bit in the new company, I moved away from maint/support roles into development roles that just weren't available in my old company. YMMV
Join the new company, there's more opportunity for you being 'an IT guy in an IT company' than 'An IT guy in a widget company.'
Not Meta-modding due to apathy.
You could move to India, the land of opportunity.
Life doesn't offer you a great many opportunities. It does, however, throw a great deal of crap your way.
If you see a chance to turn the crap into an opportunity, go for it.
Should I 'ride the wave' and join the new company and culture, or dust off the old CV/resume?"
1) You should always have an up to date resume. Especially when there is some kind of "restructuring" going on.
2) You can do both. Try on the new company. If you don't like it, you can always leave. You can even spin it to new employers as "I stayed on to ensure a smooth transition" to make you look like a team player. This is a great way to get into a new company without having to wade through the throngs of HR drones trying to screen you out of new-hire interviews.
Jumping ship before the move is kinda dumb -- as long as they don't make you sign anything ridiculous. It could be a much better place. Why would you leave when you don't have a reason to? What would you leave for? An unknown new company? Then you are no better off then where you are right now.
Outsourcing is always done for one thing and one thing only. To save money. What this means is that those who get outsourced are expected to do the same work or more work for less cost. It wont be apparent immediately, often you move over to your new organization with your salary and most of your benefits intact. What happens over time is salary increases and bonuses become smaller than they would have been had you not been outsourced. Also your new employer may not backfill workers who retire or quit. Other places they start to pinch would be training and travel budgets, maybe even redo your 401k contributions to give you less, etc. Over time they will reduce costs one way or another. Hard to give advice on this since its a very personal decision. How confident are you that you can move to another job? Do you like your current job and coworkers? You need to factor these things in when deciding to move over or find a new employer. You may want to ask if you would be entitled to a severance package if you decline to move. If severance is a sizable chunk of money its another component to factor in. Best of luck!
I've been on one side or the other of 35 acquisitions. My experience is that the only people absolutely guaranteed of a job when it's all done are those who are have a written retention offer as an incentive to keep them in place and not bail prior to the merger closing. Many people will keep their jobs, some will lose them, and no one other than the aforementioned can be certain of either.
If you are uncomfortable with the uncertainty around your continued employment, then there are two options: live with that stress and all of the potential negatives and positives continued employment or sudden termination bring -OR- take your fate into your own hands and go in search of employment elsewhere ahead of time and on your own terms. No one can really tell you which is better, as you have to determine what your threshold for uncertainty and stress is.
I have known many people who have done both, and have had it work out better or worse for them. Some can handle the stress of uncertainty, some really can't. For those latter ones, taking the initiative to determine their own fate was far better for them health-wise. I have always stayed on through the acquisitions, and it has always worked out well for me personally.
One last word of advice I have for everyone I have ever worked with, for, or over: always keep your resume up to date! Don't wait until you are in fear of your job or suddenly terminated to get it out and "dust it off." Changing jobs is stressful, and this is one thing you can do in happier times to help see yourself through the rough ones. Also, it's great to update it with accomplishments when they are fresh in your mind.
I always encourage my employees and peers to get out their resumes and update them no less than yearly, but ideally as often as quarterly. At the successful completion of any large project, I let my teams know "that is resume-worthy, and these are the points you should include" and list the things I think they should be proud of accomplishing.
Don't let your resume get stale, or when you're out of a job it's one more roadblock to getting yourself back in the saddle.
Good luck with the acquisition, whatever you choose to do!
Although many factors are beyond your control, you can give the impression that you are really positive about the whole thing. Cooperate enthusiastically about the whole process. You can't stop it, or even slow it down, your goal should be to ensure that management think you are "part of the team" and "have the right attitude".
You need to do wholly BS stuff like ask those controlling this mess if there is some way you can help.
As a techie turned CIO turned headhunter I laugh openly at the "great opportunities" at HP or any outsourcer. My former colleague at PC Magazine Guy Kewney refers to these as "Industry Standard Lies".
They have as much credibility as the many fine offers I get in emails from Nigeria and China for wealth and health.
But you must not share my laughter.
You must sound impressed with these fake offers, maybe even apply for some. This is best done as innocent questions, like asking the new management about them, and how you could apply. They will be selling them to you, so we now have both of you faking it to each other. That will look good when they decide who to dump.
You may wonder if they will be taken in by this fake enthusiasm. The odds are better than you think, unless you have already met some HP managers, and then been amazed that people like this are allowed to be in charge of anything.
They're not exactly very bright are they ?
You will want to leave of course. Anyone who has seen outsourcing knows that the good people will want to walk.
But in any market, you want to be the one who decides when you leave. Buy some time and maybe the horse will learn to sing.
Dominic Connor,Quant Headhunter
Since HP dumped PA-RISC they've just become another bottom-of-the-barrel outsource/mass market printer ink and Dell clone supplier. DECHPaq comprises the dregs of a fairly cunning coup by Intel, via the Itanic, to destroy what were the only two interesting competing CPUs (remember this is pre-amd64).
And on the prosumer end with their once excellent RPN calculators, they fired their employees, tried to outsource development to the Far East, failed, endeavoured to get assistance from their ex-employees (who helped for a while but were horrendously treated), then a couple of years later abandoned the platform entirely - and are how selling high end calculators with no updates.
This is pretty much a standard pattern for HP, and it's happening to you now. HP are rotten to the core. Unless you're more interested in your paycheque (by sucking up to the right managers) than your integrity and productivity as an engineer, hand in your notice yesterday.
I.e, don't be just a programmer; learn server management too (if nothing else, you should know how servers work to help you be a better programmer), and get involved in areas outside your job scope as much as possible. That way they can't containerise you easily and therefore know fully the impact of you not being there any more. Not to mention it's more interesting to have a broader skill-set.
throw new NoSignatureException();
A comparable thing happened to my wife. When she told me, I started mirroring her fears and it turns out that wasn't a good idea. I gave her the advice to look around. That was just one possible advice, fueled by anxiety. She basically had to solicit for her own position. We did so, but actually aimed higher. Turns out in the new situation she's much better off.
Now I'm not saying that's going to happen here. First, take the FUD out of your head and put it besides you on the couch. Then, ask around. It's better to find out more from your manager and HR if possible. In the new situation, what kind of jobs are availailable. For young people there are often opportunities here. Keep all options open, but shop around internally as well.
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I am employed by HP through an acquisition and wish I had started looking for a new job instead of waiting to see what the new organization had in store for me. The reality of the situation for me was that it took so long to complete the acquisition that our team was effectively in limbo for almost a year. Those of us that did weather the long painful integration jumped through tons of hoops just so we could get back to some sort of daily routine. As someone in a customer service role, I could see how the constant internal policy changes drastically affected customers. Not to say that acquisition is always a bad thing. Depending on where you fall on the org chart there may be opportunity to work on logistics for the acquisition/integration itself, the individuals in our group that performed this function got the recognition and the nice jobs elsewhere in the company. However, these people were few and far between, far fewer than those that left the company and didn't stick around to go through the integration exercises. I'm in the process of looking for a new position now, but in retrospect I wish I hadn't wasted my time waiting as it resulted in a year of needless headaches, IMHO.
I know who you are, now stop posting to Slashdot and fix my printer. No wonder you're being outsourced =P
You get an opportunity there! Write down the differences of both. Learn as much as you can. Take good old common sense to see what was good in the one and whats good in the other place. And also note what was bad in the old and what is bad in the new place. Then after some time look at your CV, add your new experience and rethink if you are better off at a different place.
Just to be sure: Your company/department is being bought by HP, right? I don't how HP works at all, but it is my impression that they aren't all that bad; though, there was a rough patch some years back.
Some 5 years ago I was in a small, but successful company that was bought by Informatica - I'm still here, in case you wonder. I think for the first year or so we all hated it; we really felt like we were pariahs - part of that was our fault; we we resented the whole thing, for a large part because nobody asked our opinion, and I think we all felt rather betrayed. Since then we have worked out our differences, but it didn't happens automatically - management, from the very top, understood that there was a serious problem, and they have consistently tried to do all the right things and address the real problems (as opposed to just trying to look good).
It is very important to feel welcome in a new company, and to feel that you and the way you do things enjoy respect and are valuable. In the beginning I would have left, given half a chance; now I would be very reluctant to change job.
It is very important that feel confident in yourself if you stay in your new company - they have bought you guys because they believe in your product, but also because they believe in you guys. Where the problems can come in is when the lower to middle managers aren't willing to give an inch; they have more direct influence over your daily lives than upper management.
But don't do something with guns, otherwise, liberals and weak old ladies will get bent out of shape and vote to ban them. Bring swords to work and maybe a bunch of slings and big rocks.
This is my sig.
"Remember a lot depends on how much you are willing to accept as a reduction in pay which ultimately will happen at some point."
Not necessarily. :)
Been through 2. First ended in a payoff and redundancy, the second resulted in more money as they realised how useful I can be when properly motivated
It all depends on how much you depend on this one job. You say that's your first job after university, I assume you're quite young and I hope you don't have too many mouths to feed.
Try to be open and give the outsourcer a chance. Sometimes new avenues open up and you can move into directions you didn't expect before.
Start looking for a new job. The outsourcing is a change, and while you're changing, you might change to something better, if it presents itself. That makes the outsourcer compete with the regular job market.
After the outsourcing there'll be a lot of shuffling around and your new overlords don't know you. Visible people tend to get noticed more, the quite guy sitting in his corner and doing a good job is often missed. Try to be welcoming to them, appear cooperative and friendly. At the same time expect to be fed only bullshit, but that should be business as usual.
At the same time, don't take any crap - if you can afford it. If you don't like your new employer, this might be your one chance to fight for your rights and find out what your right are. Give the new employer good reasons to believe you won't go silently and go though all those fun worker protection regulations. Outsourcer really hate that. They want sheep they can slaughter in piece and who'll run to the abattoir on their own and wait silently in the queue to be processed. This obviously doesn't work if you have seven kids to feed and it's the only job you'll ever get.
If you don't want to stay there, it might be worth waiting for a decent severance package. Very often, at some points packages are offered and it would be waste if you left on your own without it shortly before it came availble.
One of the worst mistakes that people make when changing jobs is underestimating the need for a "plan B."
Even as you hear of opportunities in HP keep in mind that they too are constantly restructuring. One of their support centers in Colorado is moving to New Mexico and the current workers have essentially been told "move or find a new job" (and since they aren't being laid off there's "no package").
Also keep in mind that the Ann Livermore (Executive VP, Technology Solutions Group) has openly stated that her job is to outsource (in most cases this means offshore) as many of hp's jobs as quickly as possible. This is done to improve hp's bottom line but obviously impacts the displaced workers even more.
Make sure your parachute is packed well and ready for deployment.
If you think the end is nigh, it often pays more to be pushed than jump. I'd cling on and see if I could land a redundancy payment.
I worked for @Home internet service for about 2.5-3 years before it was taken over by Comcast. In less than two months after the take over, nearly ALL of our network access was stripped away, our troubleshooting tools were stripped away, and our ability to provide support to not only the customers but also our field technicians was dwindled to nothing.
Everything that we had before (tools, access, etc.) was replaced with internal "web based" tools that were 20% accurate at best.
On top of that, the company turned our senior level support group (which was rated #1 in the country before Comcast came in) into a living nightmare. Myself and the rest of my group suffered on with the company for about another 3-4 years before we all finally got so fed up that many of us ended up quitting the company without having another job to go to.
I can't speak for HP as I've never worked directly for them but my ordeals at Comcast are not in short supply across the corporate business models of the world. I would hang on for a while to see how things work out after the take over. Though at the first sign of things going south, start looking for a new job ASAP and save yourself the stress and eventual rage that ensues.
If you are fresh out of school, chances are you will be the last person to go during a transition like this. You are cheap, and best positioned to pick up on the newest technologies. The company will prefer to buy out people who are close to retirement, so as long as there is gray hair walking around your office, you are probably just fine.
A friend of mine works for a company who was bought by HP a year ago and they didn't let go of anybody. Not that it's a guarantee, but I think it's false to assume that a merger means layoffs all the time.
One reason to outsource people for large companies here is to circumvent work councils. Many large companies here have pretty good social plans for their workers, good pension plans, good health plans, and a key incentive to move your workforce into some subsidiary is to cut those costs.
So read your new contract very, very carefully. Just because something was a given in your old contract doesn't mean it will be in your new contract. If it's not there, consider it gone. This can include things like a cafeteria that was free for the workers (i.e. part of the social plan) suddenly charging you for your meal.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Should I 'ride the wave' and join the new company and culture, or dust off the old CV/resume?"
Dust off the resume! *Always* dust off the resume. Keep that baby dusted even when you're happy and foresee no imminent change. I'd ride the wave for now. You'll know when the time is right. But keep the resume dusted.
If aspiration is a virtue, achievement cannot be a vice.
Happened to me. I learned that if you are not considered a 'revenue center' you will likely be the first to go - IT Departments, internal audit, accounting are all 'cost centers', and since businesses live to minimize costs...
Given what you do, moving to HP or one of their ilk (Accenture, etc.) will make you such a revenue center, and thus less likely to be laid off. In those environments (where I currently work) if you do good work and have a good senior manager (director level, selling work to clients) you will remain chargeable, and therefore, employed. It can work out well. One thing I do recommend, though, to someone straight from University - don't fall in love with your job, because it won't love you back, and it may break your heart. Good luck!
My unit at IBM was sold to another company a couple of years ago. My experience is:
One thing I wouldn't suggest is to leave now -- you can always quit after the shakeup if it doesn't work out for you, but even if there are layoffs and your job looks shaky, stick around until after they've happened; they may keep you on after all, and even if they don't, there ought to be a payout for making you redundant.
You should definitely make sure you CV/resume is up to date, though -- if the worst happens, you'll need to get it out there quickly.
A friend of mine was made redundant in a shakeup like this. It was the best thing that ever happened to him. (well, best work-related thing, anyway... ;-))
He had been there a number of years, so he got a really decent payout when they made him redundant (tax-free in this country too! don't know whether that's the case everywhere), and he went straight from there to a better paid job.
do what you love. let corporations collide. in the end mergers, outsourcing and smartsourcing mean very little to anyone but stockholders.
Good people go to bed earlier.
If you are part of the DPWN staff in Germany then sit tight. The German laws make 'rightsizing' very difficult. :-
IF you are elsewhere, be afraid, VERY Afraid.
Watch out for the HP tactics of:-
1) Moving your location by hundreds of miles/km
2) Moving you to and existing HP facility where there are
a) Not enough desks for the existing staff
b) Not enough car parking for the existing staff.
3) The sudden appearance of Indian IT staff who have come to learn your job
This is all to get you to leave on your own without them making you redundant/laid off/rightsized.
You mangers may well have hidden targets and therefore bonuses for getting rid of say 30% of staff.
If you are not someone who is a 'Yes Sir, Three Bags full, let me lick you boots sir, kinda guy' then beware the arrival of the pink slip within days of the takeover being completed.
I survived the Compaq takeover of DEC but got the chop 2 days after HP took over. Then went back as a contractor to complete the multi million $$$$ project I was working on. HP is one place I wouldn't ever work again. They SUCK royally.
Although I've never been 'outsourced' myself I have worked at an outsourcing company alongside many people who had. This wasn't HP so I don't know what they're like but my experience is that it is, in general, a fairly positive experience.
You may not end up doing exactly what you were doing before, or in exactly the same way which might be an issue for you but on the other hand you ought to have a lot more opportunities to get involved in different things which may not have been available to you before.
One thing I did notice is that people outsourced from the same company do tend to form their own little cliques within the new company which could work well for you if a lot of your management is also being outsourced or not so well if you are a smaller company.
For example although most of the management had come in on specific contracts/projects related to the company they came from at the beginning after a couple of years they'd be doing something totally unrelated to the company they were outsourced from and yet their team would still mostly be comprised of their old co-workers.
The other option ( in the UK at least ) is an excellent chance of a fairly generous redundancy package so I'd say if you want a big lump of cash take redundancy and leave to do something else or if you prefer career development go with the move.
"If nothing is broke, most likely no-one is going to try and "fix it"," is a good principle, but obviously doesn't apply when the whole deal is aimed at fixing it. If nothing were broke, DHL wouldn't "fix it" by pawning off the whole department.
Anyway, the fact is, DHL thinks it can save some money by passing these guys off to HP. Going by your scenario, it means that, basically we have two sums:
X = how much DHL pays for these guys, managing them, computers, electricity, building rent, overhead, etc
Y = how much DHL would pay HP for the same results
Now DHL thinks X > Y, and HP must think that Y includes a profit margin for itself _and_ pay for whatever they bought that department for. (It's not signing this just to subsidize DHL.) It makes no sense for Y to be the exact same old X plus a positive profit. Basically for your scenario, you have simultaneously X > Y, Y = X + P _and_ P > 0. Something doesn't add up, according to the maths as I know it.
One possibility that happens rather often, is that actually HP will end up fleecing DHL. I.e., that (maybe after a short time) actually Y > X. Quite a few companies found themselves at the bad end of that kind of a deal. (Though in the short term HP takes a small loss to sweeten the deal, the new CEO/beancounte/PHB can show some positive financial results in that quarter, and the shareholders cheer.)
The other possibility is that HP _will_ reduce the costs somehow. Maybe they'll force everyone to do more projects in the same time, so it's not going to be really the same job for the same money. Maybe they'll phase some people out after a while and move some of those jobs to Elbonia. Or maybe after a while they figure out that they can't make that much money there, gut the department and keep just some maintenance or service contract with DHL. Or whatever.
There _are_ a few such outsourcing or privatizing deals done just so someone else gets to fire those people, or ask them to take a pay cut.
So basically indeed YMMV. I'm glad it worked out well for you. Sometimes it does. In some other places it doesn't work like that.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Your CV/Resume should always be kept up to date no matter what, even if you're currently not looking for another job.
That said, you should learn a separate skill in another field so you're not totally dependent on your "day job." I'm a software engineer in my day job but I'm a "finance nerd" at home. I develop day trading software on the side to sell, and for my own use. The whole field of trading is intellectually stimulating; if you're really good at it you might even be able to ditch the day job one day.
Remember that being an entrepreneur doesn't necessarily "taking the plunge" and quitting the day job and joining a start-up. A creative and focused person can develop a side business for extra income. And who knows? Maybe it'll take off. You're young enough to develop this entrepreneurial habit. Think of the possibilities!
Your CV should always be up to date. Always. No exceptions. That said, outsourcing can be lucrative for the employees. Often you'll get a bump in pay or a retainer bonus. Replacing a mass exodus immediately after an outsourcing deal is highly problematic and most companies will do all they can to keep staff and convert them.
Nothing like having the pee in a cup, again, to work for the same company.
Surely someone whose job got eliminated as a result of this would feel a bit... D-PWNd? (/ducks) /CF
Thank you, thank you, thank you! I am going through this exact thing - our small company was recently acquired by a much larger company (and our previous #1 competitor to boot!), and I am seeing myself in both the original question and all of the comments. The fear of the unknown, the apprehension, the prospects of putting my resume back out there....they're all there.
I, too, felt disillusioned in the system, frustrated with the powers-that-be, and distrustful of the whole thing. My initial thoughts were that this whole mess wasn't going to be for the better at all, and that we were getting sucked in to their crappiness. I've decided to keep my eyes open a little more for whatever opportunities are out there, at least moreso than I was before. But I'm going to wait awhile longer to see how things pan out. Corporate communication throughout the whole thing has been little to non-existent, though. The biggest struggle I've had is that my job role has changed. Well, no one has actually told me it has changed, but my previous role was lead developer in our small company - and the new company outsources all of their dev work to India (which is VERY subpar quality work I might add). I get the feeling they've got all these new people now, and don't really know what to do with them. I'd really rather be doing software development and programming that "managing" or doing this "project leader" BS.
I've either learned that things will begin to smooth out, or that I should just stop caring about putting out a better "product" and giving everything my best effort. If upper management only cares about the bottom line, no matter how crappy the quality of our company's product and service, why should I bother?
As a manager I can tell you the list of employees that will have "protection" has already been made by management opinion. No use trying to change yourself now.
I would suggest updating the CV, but stay on, and keep a positive attitude about the shift in culture.
1) If you're getting downsized, they owe you severance. If you leave, you don't get it. After 8 years, it might be worth it.
2) People who are negative usually go first. Look at the positives, do some preliminary work researching the new systems, culture, expectations etc which will help you make new contacts and increase your "corporate worth". Make sure to name-drop those connections and forward looking technologies around your manager and higherups.
3) Ride it out. If you're a good employee, you'll survive with more opportunity then you think. If you were a sub-par employee always doing the minimum, you can ride it out for the severance. Either way you're covered.
4) Put your feelers out to headhunters. They may be greedy, pushy, and rude, but they're on your side and have a better idea of your market value then anyone else. Just don't use a headhunter that is corporately known. People looking for a job has a way of leaking out, especially if Management deals with them on a regular basis.
I survived a few downsizes and shifts. My positive attitude while the sky was falling was always greeted with appreciation by the new overlords.
Yo Grark
Canadian Bred with American Buttering
Outsourcing is pain. Anyone who says differently is selling something.
The expectations are not going to be lower, so outsourcing just means there is another set of mouths to feed in the corporate food chain between your work and the company's income. In my experience, from a worker's point of view, there is very, very little good that can come of it: if you were a cost before, you will still be a cost. The CIO is trying to avoid actually being accountable for anything or the company is playing games with its "revenue per employee" statistic to pull the wool over investors eyes.
It seems that I am on the other side of the story (dark side?) since I actually work in an outsourcing company. I work in Serbia, and we provide some programming for one company in USA.
It may be that we are not a typical example, but in our case there are about 60 employees in USA and 20 here in Serbia.
Complete R&D, marketing, and all top-jobs in IT are done in USA. Here in Serbia we do very basic tasks only.
In our particular case, we are not doing the job very well. Successful outsourcing requires very good communication channels. Due to geographical difference and esp. if there is time zone difference (like USA - India) communication must be perfect. This is very hard to achieve. That would require trained people in USA to write good specs, to know how to handle tasks and everything. For a beginning, just to know what they want as a product. In practice, that would mean that good managers will do some good work and bad managers will do some bad work, just as if there was no outsourcing. Outsourcing will just make existing communication problems bigger.
In our particular case, since we work in extremely regulated industry, things are even harder. Everything in the process has to be double-checked, documented and so on. In theory, this makes things more easy to outsource, but in practice, as major job has to be done in USA, outsourcing does not seem too beneficial. In our case, only thing you can outsource are junior jobs. But they have problems figuring this, and they try over and over to send us any tasks they find "labor intensive". This won't work. Outsourcing company is not a cavalry you call when you are in trouble. If you want to treat it like a cheap labor for boring tasks, you'll be in a huge problem.
As a complete surprise to a geniuses who believe that outsourcing is a solution for poor business practices, people that work in outsourcing companies are human, too. When treated as junk, they treat their employers as junk, so they tend to leave for small increases in salaries, since their job satisfaction is low and salary in only measure. Even more surprisingly, if treated as humans, outsources tend to behave just every normal employee. They learn about their jobs, they are ready to spend some time there when salaries are not the highest in the city and so on.
It's a bit different story when large company, like HP decides to outsource entire department. I don't see how this could be efficient. It's not a problem to replace junior John Doe with Asok in Delhi, but if you need to replace every trained team-leader, every mid-manager with the Indian counter-part, it seems to me like a recipe for disaster.
No sig today.
An IT person that's roaming the corridors and works inhouse can always stop by and fix things on the fly while an outsourced IT person always has to get the issue through the issue tracking system in order to motivate the salary. This means that it can add hours upon hours of delay before an issue is resolved.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
"I moved into my current position fresh out of university"
"I enjoy my work and the opportunities that go with it, "
in other words, you never had to deal with
reality? you seem to think somehow you will be guaranteed a job in 'the new company', as if you have a choice to stay or go.
the point of outsourcing is supposedly to reduce headcount and get rid of labor costs... ie, you. dust off your 'cv' no matter what. its like your lifeboat, think 'titanic'.
and go read dilbert books.
If your company is being bought you should generally leave, or at least prepare to. I'm yet to see happy developers that stayed with a company that got bought out. If your company is the one buying the other then you get to raid the other company's resources (people, servers, software, etc) keeping what you want and getting rid of the rest. Much better to be on this end than the other.
Tag this story "dpwned".
Opportunities are born out of times like this - ride it out, keep a positive attitude and an open mind, look for new people to hook up with, expand your network to include people in the "new" company. You very likely will find yourself presented with a chance to do something new, without having to leave the company.
I was in that exact position with HP and a large canadian financial institution about 5 years ago. It went pretty smoothly for some (including me) but not for everyone. The shift to HP's culture was a hit and there was many waves of layoff's.
Stick it out and see what happens. At the very least you can put "HP" (for whatever that is worth to you) on your resume.
If I assume you live and work in USA, so you will be under the same worker laws, I guess you should not worry about being outsourced, specially if we speak about HP. I live in Argentina and work at a HP facility, but I'm NOT a HP employee, I'm an outsourced problem analyst, and there is a big difference. I don't just speak about salary, it's about worker's internal rights and responsabilities: if something goes wrong with something I'm working on, It's all my fault; but if it turns out to be a good job, my (HP) manager will take the credit for it (anyway, here everyone knows it happens without even being outsourced..). Of course, he will not forget to congratulate me by e-mail. Now, if I have something to complain or ask about, it's not HP I have to deal with, it's my outsourcing company... I still think you shouldn't leave (yet), just take your time to evaluate all the implications, but specially how you really want your job to be like. Good luck.
If your name is Anonymous Coward, don't bother replying. I already guess how smart you are.
better days ahead. see you there?
the lights are coming up all over now. conspiracy theorists are being vindicated. some might choose a tin umbrella to go with their hats. the fairytail is winding down now. let your conscience be yOUR guide. you can be more helpful than you might have imagined. there are still some choices. if they do not suit you, consider the likely results of continuing to follow the corepirate nazi hypenosys story LIEn, whereas anything of relevance is replaced almost instantly with pr ?firm? scriptdead mindphuking propaganda or 'celebrity' trivia 'foam'. meanwhile; don't forget to get a little more oxygen on yOUR brain, & look up in the sky from time to time, starting early in the day. there's lots going on up there.
http://news.google.com/?ncl=1216734813&hl=en&topic=n
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/31/opinion/31mon1.html?em&ex=1199336400&en=c4b5414371631707&ei=5087%0A
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/29/world/29amnesty.html?hp
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/02/nasa.global.warming.ap/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/weather/06/05/severe.weather.ap/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/weather/06/02/honore.preparedness/index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/01/opinion/01dowd.html?em&ex=1212638400&en=744b7cebc86723e5&ei=5087%0A
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/05/senate.iraq/index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/17/washington/17contractor.html?hp
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/03/world/middleeast/03kurdistan.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080708/cheney_climate.html
is it time to get real yet? A LOT of energy is being squandered in attempts to keep US in the dark. in the end (give or take a few 1000 years), the creators will prevail (world without end, etc...), as it has always been. the process of gaining yOUR release from the current hostage situation may not be what you might think it is. butt of course, most of US don't know, or care what a precarious/fatal situation we're in. for example; the insidious attempts by the felonious corepirate nazi execrable to block the suns' light, interfering with a requirement (sunlight) for us to stay healthy/alive. it's likely not good for yOUR health/memories 'else they'd be bragging about it? we're intending for the whoreabully deceptive (they'll do ANYTHING for a bit more monIE/power) felons to give up/fail even further, in attempting to control the 'weather', as well as a # of other things/events.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=weather+manipulation&btnG=Search
http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=video+cloud+spraying
dictator style micro management has never worked (for very long). it's an illness. tie that with life0cidal aggression & softwar gangster style bullying, & what do we have? a greed/fear/ego based recipe for disaster. meanwhile, you can help to stop the bleeding (loss of life & limb);
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/28/vermont.banning.bush.ap/index.html
the bleeding must be stopped before any healing can begin. jailing a couple of corepirate nazi hired goons would send a clear message to the rest of the world from US. any truthful look at the 'scorecard' would reveal that we are a society in decline/deep doo-doo, despite all of the scriptdead pr ?firm? generated drum beating & flag waving propaganda that we are constantly bombarded with. is it time to get real yet? please consider carefully ALL of yOUR other 'options'. the creators will prevail. as it has always been.
corepirate nazi execrable costs outweigh benefits
(Score:-)mynuts won, the king is a fink)
by ourselves on everyday 24/7
as there are no benefits, just more&more death/debt & disruption. fortunately there's an 'army' of light bringers, coming yOUR way. the little ones/innocents must/will be protected. after the big flash, ALL of yOUR imaginary 'borders' may blur a bit? for each of the creators' innocents harmed in any way, there is a debt that must/will be repaid by y
The reason the shake up is there in the first place is because someone in the food chain isn't making enough money and wants to change things around so that they make more.
One: it depends on who's doing the figuring. Two folks, equally honest, can come up with two vastly different figures for a particular business unit. I has an issue like this once where one guy was attributing more of the company overhead to the unit than the other, so his "costs" were vastly greater.
And when you outsource, the costs are calculated very differently. That's the mistake a lot of folks make is that they don't look at the acid test: cash flow. Trump once said cash is king! The big corporate types have a tendency to forget that. I blame MBA programs. Watching cash flows was never really taught.
Two: Numbers in the business world are NOT based on physical laws as they are in engineering and science. Many times, the numbers are someone's best guess - estimate, pulled out of their ass, etc...
Reducing costs is part of the story for outsourcing, but it is not always the entire story. It consumes capital and intellectual capital to manage as much as 15% of your business. Maybe the company is better off to invest elsewhere.
.... We might spend too much time on something that is not essential to the business process.
Many companies do not manage their own payroll. It is not immediately apparent they do this to reduce costs. However, relieving staff of figuring out how to garnish wages, pay all the separate taxing bodies,
For outsourcing IT, you should look at the application space. If all the services provided are accounting and payroll, then you can run for the door. These things can always be outsourced and costs are the primary factor.
If the applications work really enables the business to serve its customers, then the company may be experiencing many problems with the manner in which development is performed and is throwing in the towel.
Whatever, if you decide to follow HP, you should look at its reputation. Look in Fortune Magazine and look at HP's track record on both its business and its ranking as a place to work. If you would buy HP's stock and you believe it serves its employees well, I would fight for a job at HP. In any case, dust off the CV. The new company is going to interview you regardless.
"If all the American people want is security, let them live in prisons." Eisenhower
Whatever you decide to do, have a backup plan. Don't be one of those worried whimpering dudes who fear change, and don't be one of those guys who suddenly find themselves plummeting without a net.
Plan ahead. Always.
HP used to be a great place to work. It isn't that way any more, and it continues to get worse. HP is now run by bean counters, whose core competency is cutting costs. You probably won't enjoy working for HP. See all the negative comments on Glassdoor.com.
Should I 'ride the wave' and join the new company and culture, or dust off the old CV/resume?"
You should do both - Start looking for a new job ASAP, but don't burn any bridges. In six months to a year, when they come to greatly regret the decision to outsource, as someone who already knows your job, you'll find yourself in a position to demand just about anything to come back.
On average I am laid off every 2 years due to outsourcing, layoffs, downsizing, buyouts, you name it, and I have barely been in the "real world" for a decade. DO NOT EVER ride a sinking ship. It does nothing but crush your morale, and in the end, you get screwed no matter what. I have learned that it does not matter what you know, but who you know.
Get your resume up to date, and always keep it up to date every few months. Surf monster.com routinely at work if you have to, and keep your resume bumped up to the top. Most headhunters are usually a waste of time and resources, but occasionally you find a good one. Also consider moving. I learned the hard way early on that Ohio is nothing but an IT black hole, and will move when I find the right offer, never to look back.
In a nutshell, company loyalty is a relic from decades ago, and has not existed in my lifetime. Only be as loyal to a company as it is to you, which is pretty much non-existent these days.
Okay, if I understand correctly you are working for a company that was hired by DPWN to "outsource" some of their positions and now HP is taking over that outsourced portion of DPWN's work? DPWN is just switching contracts then right?
Why are you so upset? You were the one that displaced someone elses job at DPWN when they first outsourced those positions. Seems to me if you live by the sword you should die by the sword...
If the same people are sticking around and doing the work, then you are really just an IT whore and you had your pimp changed. Get used to it...
Obviously it depends on what the regulations are in your particular country, but here you become a fully fledged employee of the new company. That gives you the seniority you transferred from your old job (status, number of years employed, rights etc.) and it also gives you the right to apply for internal vacancies with the same status as anyone else within the new parent company.
Don't feel therefore that you have to continue doing your old job - look around in the bigger organisation for something you may prefer and go for it.
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
Should I 'ride the wave' and join the new company and culture, or dust off the old CV/resume?
I don't like either of those options. Back in my day job days this kind of thing would go on all the time. Outsource rumors and buy outs in private industry, contract changes in military contracting. Either way you're still an employee subject to the whims and petty rules of your employer.
Another option is thinking about banking some cash and starting your own gig. It's harder work and pays less but ultimately you'll be happier. You have to learn about things like quarterly taxes and professional liability insurance, business licenses and what advertising works and what doesn't. The nice thing about tech is you don't need expensive offices or a lot of overhead to get going. You will need enough cash to survive until you have money coming in, which takes longer than you think.
Most people have ideas about what it takes to start a business and those ideas are almost universally wrong. You may not get fabulously wealthy but with hard work and miserly habits you can make ends meet. I was doing okay and it eventually led to a job that is, essentially, layoff proof. And I get an equity position if the company gets bought out. Plus I'm in the envious position of being the person with the whims who makes up the petty rules. Life is a lot better being on that side of the equation.
Having your own gig gives you the leverage to take a pass on the crapass, dead end, corporate cubicle jobs. You'll be happier in the long run. What seems strange to me are people who will argue for the financial security of a day job. Talk about a false sense of security. You can work in the same place 20 years and get fired the next day and won't get squat.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
I would suggest reading The World is Flat by Thomas L. Friedman.
Friedman goes through great effort to explain how and why jobs are being outsourced, and also provides some guidance on what we can do to survive in a "flat" world. I would call this book required reading for anyone working in any level of IT.
If you're not the reading type, there's a video of Friedman at MIT where he coveres much of the first three chapters.
"Should I 'ride the wave' and join the new company and culture, or dust off the old CV/resume?"
Do Both. There's a chance to get into HP as an employee, but buyouts rarely go well for the employees of the purchased business. I hate sounding like a pessimist, but I like being prepared for all possibilities.
Looking at the ugliest scenario, consider that HP already has considerable IT resources. Are you bringing skills and talents to the table that would be of extra value to HP? Or would your skill set be redundant? If you are the GoTo guy in your organization — the guy folks go to when they need issues solved or just want to shoot the breeze — then you can assume that you'll be reasonably safe. Otherwise, you may want to brush up on your people skills.
On the other side of the spectrum, you've already noticed that this could be a real opportunity! Try and find out what your new employers really need and make sure your resume and skills reflect that. Go to HP's web site and look up employment opportunities within HP, and see if your skill set matches anything that they are looking for. Even if your business unit is slated for disassembly or restructuring, you could stand a good chance to get transferred to where you are needed instead of being laid off.
When your new overlords- er, uh, I mean "employers" — arrive to take control, make sure you make a clear effort to learn how they want things done. Don't be a kiss-up. Make a real effort to adapt.
Good luck with it. This could be a great opportunity for you, regardless of whether it goes positively or negatively. If they like you, but your position still has to be cut, you will run a better chance of either scoring a transfer or getting a decent recommendation/lead on a new job with another company.
Whew! This water sure is cold!
Get the hell out of there.
DHL does it to save money
HP does it to make money
The employees in the middle get screwed over as its actually impossible to do both, something has to give, and it will be your pay and benefits.
I work for a bank that has some IT outsourced and some in-sourced. I work for the bank. Getting anything done is a nightmare and actually costs the bank far more than i really would if they did it themselves.
But, it doesn't actually look at way to the person who got a bonus for signing with the outsourcing company and reporting to the board.
Like many have recommended you should keep all options open. Maintain an updated resume. You never know when someone will mention they are looking to hire. And don't get drawn into the company line about people being their number one asset or any such bullshit. People are one of the first things a company will jettison if they think it will help the bottom line. The days of cradle to grave at a company are long gone. Employment is pretty much at will everywhere.
The one thing to keep in mind is that if/when you decide to make the move, just make the move. Don't look back and don't dwell on what could have been. It won't do you or anyone any good. Don't burn any bridges but don't hold fret about the old job. If the new one sucks (which most of them do) then work it until you find something else.
A lot of it depends on your exact job and the deal between HP and DHL. If you job involves systems that are unique to DHL, then you should be safe for a while. If it is a job like looking after a Windows server or Oracle DBA, I might start looking. If HP is going to start taking possession of DHL's servers and systems and moving them to their own server farms, then I'd start looking right away. If not, you'll find that much of your time in the future is spent training others how to do your job. That's what happened in my last job. Keep in mind that HP is buying EDS and there is going to be some rationalizing there. Even without the merger, these companies are looking for the cheapest IT labour possible, which means they are going overseas. So I would not count on any future in HP. Also oursourcers love to outsource. You job might not even be done by HP: it might be somebody they've contracted to do it. I once had a problem that involved five separate companies, five levels of outsourcing. It felt like I was working for the government or something. If you hang in through the transition, be prepared for the effect this will have on your relationship with your non-IT colleagues at DHL. I found this really stressful when it happened to me. I could not talk to anyone in our company unless they went through the outsourcer first. Then the outsourcer might not assign the task to me. I used to be the only computer guy for one of our sites. When somebody needed a new program installed on his computer, he called the help desk. They assigned it to a company they outsourced desktop maintenance too. I then had to show the person who came in from 100km away how to install the software on this person's computer. After a while this changes your colleagues relationship with you: you become more and more of an outsider. Soon they start to check to see if you might have a better office than they do.
and still on topic. Well done Slashdotters!
I can't believe companies still do this. Actually, yes I can. I often work with offshore people and it is difficult. Language barriers are huge. I've been axed because of outsourcing. As soon as the contract with the outsourcer was completed, my old employer began a project to insource and return systems to their new data center. Go figure.
If you're in my shoes, you have to start looking and start looking early- you just can't afford to wait since the total might well be 0 next week. My job did get canned- they moved me into a vacant programmer position that I didn't want but I took since I needed the health insurance for my kids. Two days later I got the inital interview call from my top choice, and I was out of the old job in a month and a half, but even so it was a really, really stressful time. If you're in a high-demand area or simply have a lot of possible options (and have no family) then sit still and see what happens, although other posters are right- check the new benefits package very carefully. My old job also cut retirement benefits during the reorg.
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
i used to work for HP as a solution architect and did these kind of deals. What u usually notice is that after the negotiated period of "no layoffs" is over, we will thin out the original departments and integrate them into our own operational departments.
This does not necessarily mean that you will loose your job, or that anyone will. But your department will be integrated into the standards and procedures of HP. People will be moved around to where they are most needed, sometimes this means you will no longer be working on the DHL account (cause your company now becomes an account)
HP is actually a great company to work for, and if you are a capable and qualified person, they will notice you. My one piece of advise is not to work counterproductive during the transition and transformation phase. HP engineers will come to you for information, work with them, show them your skills, and they will recommend you. If you are counterproductive, expect your pink slip soon.
Brush up your CV in any case, it never hurts to have it up to date, perhaps some HR person within HP will ask you for it.
I've been there, I was outsourced to HP and this is what I saw:
1- Business as usual for about 2-3 years. Yes processes will change, you will be pissed off at certain things, but overall, HP managed well its new employees, both at the beginning and during the cost reduction phase.
2- People are usually unhappy because the service level changed (more often than not it deteriorates).
3- Outsourced people are unhappy because the peculiar business of a service provider is not to help the client as a member of the "client's corporate family" but to make money first while providing a service to the client. As such, initiatives are sometimes not welcomed, you have to go by the book; you are now providing a service and as such you must not do more then what the service level agreement stipulates. It can be very frustrating at times, especially when you were used to suggest ideas to improve things with your colleagues. They are no longer your colleagues, they are now employees of your client. You have to change your perspective: the target for your initiatives is now HP, not your former employee.
5- After about 2-3 years, cost reduction phase starts more aggressively: HP is there to make money and they will try to get rid of the "redundancies" (the said fashionable term changes pretty regular according to the management gout-du-jour). They will also try to "share" the good resources so it can be an opportunity to work for other clients: can be very interesting.
So basically, after the understandable denial phase of your grieve process, try to not resist the change and see what's there for you, what's part of your path.
Of course, in any case, dust off your resume.
Good luck!
My way of dealing with corporate talk like this is not to be a victim. I worked at a major financial firm that wanted to move my team to Ohio to "integrate" with the rest of the units that handled online business, after several mergers.
"Integrate" is a fancy corporate way of saying "downsize" or "trim the fat". As soon as they made the announcement that we were moving within a year and described why, I dusted off my resume and started looking.
3 months later, I got an offer the day they announced the actual date in a short notice meeting. Around half my team stayed with the company and moved, I put my notice in right after the meeting and started working at a security startup 2 weeks later.
Around 6 months later I got an IM from a former coworker that most of the team was getting laid off *after selling their houses and moving to Ohio*. Most bought houses in Ohio, which is pretty depressed right now. Needless to say they are more or less stuck there. There aren't many jobs there. Their mortgages didn't even have time to season.
The moral of the story is: Go with your gut feelings and intuition. If you smell something bad, chances are there's something bad coming. Your gut won't lie to you.
The sooner you make your move the better off you'll be. Right now you have time to get what you want. If you wait, and end up in a bad situation, you might even have to take the first thing you find.
-Viz
Don't kid yourself. It's the size of the regexp AND how you use it that counts.
Based on my experience, I will never be one of the "conquered" or part of the "acquired assets" again. Each time I've gone through it I've left because I grew tired of being treated like a second class citizen and felt punished even though I've worked hard to earn the new regime's trust and have tried hard to prove I'm "on board" with the new company values.
Your mileage may vary, thanks for reading.
You seem to be in that middle ground where there's a big move afoot, and the company isn't saying that there's going to be X and Y happen, and this is how many people we'll be cutting. Without -knowing- that something drastic is going to happen up-front, everyone's going to be telling anyone who will listen that everything will be great for everyone involved. That just can't be true. (I'm sorry, but it can't.) I think the problem is that these sorts of deals are VERY difficult to evaluate, and the results of them can only be discovered when the rubber meets the road. What you may find is that it's good for -you-, or maybe not so much. During this time that it takes for the "higher ups" to figure out how this is going to work long-term, you need to watch them closely. I've been through a downsizing, a merger, and a divestiture. How the move affects the company is telegraphed by upper management. If, after the outsourcing, many of the key people from one company start "taking other opportunities," then you can bet hard-earned money that the culture of the company is shifting the other way. In my merger experience, this was a Very Bad Thing (and a VBT that continues to reverberate in the divested company). Ultimately, I watched and waited to see what was happening in the divested company, and, as soon as it became clear that I wasn't going to like what that was, a door was opened for me to leave, and I took it. (I, personally, believe that it was a move of God in my life, but YMMV.) But my point here is that it took a little over a YEAR for everything to get sorted enough for me to figure out HOW it would affect me. So, be patient. Again, these monster companies can't turn on a dime. (I now work for a startup.)
Acts 17:28, "For in Him we live, and move, and have our being."
If they outsource your job there's nothing you can do about it so don't waste stress/energy thinking about it. If you are offered something with HP, consider your options carefully. Having worked for them in the past I can tell you that the HP experience can be either good or bad depending on which section you are in and who you work with/for. There are some serious a-holes at HP, yet there are some really great people as well. Their corporate culture used to be really cool, but I think a lot of that has changed and now they operate "New Delhi" style.
It will not harm you to have your CV up to date for your new outsourced company, as well as for any potential new jobs.
Having been through the outsourcing process a couple of times, I can say that it often favours those outsourced rather than those who are left. Since those staying with the parent company have to deal with many who were once colleagues through a layer of SLAs and Relationship Managers. Whereas those going often find themselves in a greater world with a nice new company on the CV to boot.
As ever life is what you make of it - it might just be as well to find out what the new place is like and get some new experiences before moving on!
Take a look at Glassdoor for employee comments about HP. They are fairly representative and job security is a myth. The only thing that has changed from the Carly years is that the bottom line looks much better. HP is in the process laying off or having mandatory transfers to core sites for most of their IT people. In short, IT people at HP are experiencing something very similar to you. Obviously, working as an on-site rep for HP is different and will probably be secure as long as HP has the contract with your company and they don't figure out a way to centrally administer or automate your job away.l
Do both. As has been stated, it's always a good idea to have an up to date CV. Keep in mind that whatever you decide, you won't be working for your current employer. So in effect, you _will_ be changing jobs. Things probably won't change much initially, but you will need to acclimate to the culture of the new organization, just like any new job. Over time, you may find yourself assigned to a "different account", i.e. you won't be working on the DHL account, but will work with a different client, while still getting your paycheck from HP. Also remember, HP is in this deal to make money, so they're going to try to charge DHL as much as they can, while doing as little as possible with as few people as possible under the terms of their contract. Which means you could end up getting "downsized". There are really no guarantees. This is basic stuff, but you need to be aware of it.
Stay alert and engaged. Shakeups and crisis are nerve racking for sure, but with change comes opportunity.
It never hurts to float your resume in a large market or talk to a "good" recruiter every year or so. You need an outside perspective, even a self-interested one, on a regular basis. Some companies go a long way to make sure that their employees work in a closet. "Yeah, sure, 45K is what all the nuclear particle scientists make. And don't forget bread pudding Tuesdays in the mess."
/LabMonkey09
Stay the hell out of HP IT. You don't want to work there. If you have a chance to get hired as an internal though, you should look into it. The internal job board is better than the external one. Try to get an R&D position somewhere, especially in the printing division.
So basically they're out-outsourcing the call center operations to eastern Europe and IT operations to the US and Malaysia ..
.. :)
"Deutsche Post World Net expects to save at least 1 billion euros over the next seven years by driving down overall IT costs"
The only way of doing that is having half the people doing twice the work for three times the return. If it runs like any other IT place I've ever worked for, expect a huge turn over in staff, burn out in ten months, unless you learned to talk management speak in the mean time. Like, "driving down overall IT costs and "leveraging IT resources", which excites senior management almost as much as p0rn
davecb5620@gmail.com
What I want to know is when will we be outsourcing management? That is where the real savings are!!! How hard can it be? Yes/No/Delegate/Yes/No/Delegate.
"Large indigo" assimilation is all fun and ballons until one day when you find yourself sitting in a packed theater watching the "who stole my cheese" video.
In reality nobody can expect a life-long career based on one industry, let alone one employer. For example, I started my full time working life in 1976 as HS drop-out pumping petrol - driveway service went extinct a long time ago where I live. In my early 20's I had a wife and kid and I worked/lived at an old growth sawmill in the middle of nowhere for a year or so - the forestry lease ran out in 1984 and the area is now a national park. Worked on scallop trawlers (fishing) for a year or so - few boats left after the govt. bought back licenses to stop overfishing and protect fish breeding grounds. Worked shift work in a nylon spinning plant in the late 80's - govt signed a treaty and phased out the corporate welfare (tarrifs). Been a well paid geek since ~92-93, whodathunk it?!?
I'm 49, not counting jobs
BTW: I agree a big diverse employer can offer a great deal in the way of internal opportunity.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
"I moved into my current position fresh out of university and .. I enjoy my work and the opportunities that go with it"
.. :)
You really enjoy being chained to a desk and having to ask permission to take a leak? Like, the only reason they hire fresh out of Uni is you're the only people that will put up with the such BS.
Don't delude yourself about the opportunities. Have you noticed that no one in top management has any real experience of IT. They're all hired in from outside. The only opportunities you are going to see is being down-sized in the next clean sweep. Look around you, how many of those people were there ten months ago, how many will be there in another ten months.
Now lets all pause, go up stairs and have a meeting where no one is allowed to speak and the PHB reads out of a magazine
kdawson says: insert free advert for Call Centers here
davecb5620@gmail.com
1. Like others have said, get your resume in shape. Always have your resume in shape. Look for things involved in the transition that might improve your resume.
2. Look at things carefully in the new company. The salary might be the same, but they can stick you on benefits. It is your total salary that might not stay the same. They wrote special into our contracts because some people would lose some vacation time if they didn't. Plus we had to sell back our banked vacation. That is a plus/minus deal - I mean 4 weeks pay was great, but I never got to take the 4 weeks vacation as an option. And where I got stuck was in the prescription drug benefit. They think they have a good plan, but it sucks compared to what we used to have.
3. Assume that you are going to be let go, until it is proved otherwise. Especially if they write in that you are garunteed of employment for x months. That's a big sign that says we are going to lay people off starting then.
4. If you are a consultant at the original company, RUN - you are gone first.
5. With HP as the new parent, really, get your resume ready. Look, look hard.
Step 1: Prepare to walk away. That means update your resume/CV, touch base with contacts in other companies that might be of assistance should you need to leave, and check your own finances.
Step 2: Be supportive of the transition. Help make it smooth, be one of the positive forces in the process. There will be many who try to impede simply because they don't like change. Be positive about it, and be sure your contributions and attitude are noticed by your new corporate overlords.
Step 3: Analyze HP's offerings and see if they track along your chosen career path. Look at what you want to do, and what HP might be able to offer you. Then decide whether to stay or go.
It may seem a bit two-faced, but it's a viable action plan. It helps you keep some control over the situation. The objective is to not be forced into a decision, but to make it when you're ready, and be sure that you don't burn any bridges in the process. You want to be able to either jump ship but leave behind a positive impression, or to quickly move forward within the acquiring company (HP).
Good Luck!
-- "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." - R.A.H.
Although I never worked directly for HP, several people I worked closely with at a fortune 100 company were spun off to HP with the rest of their department. At that time (about 8 years ago), Hp had a policy where you were essentially on probation for about a year. Since it did not happen to me directly, I can not speak from direct experience about how it happened, but after 12 months, only about 1/3 of the individuals I worked closest with still worked for HP. I believe most left of their own volition. Within another 12 months, several of those who left returned, some to HP, but most to other positions within the original fortune 100 company or to other sub-contractors working with either HP or the original fortune 100 company. As I remember, as people left, more work fell upon those who remained, although some efficiencies were also introduced into their jobs. Of the ones who remained after the initial 12 months, most were willing to take on extra work, and were the ones responsible for introducing the efficiencies mentioned earlier.
No matter what, make sure your Resume/CV is up-to-date. Pay close attention to the terms of your employment under HP. Understand exactly what benefits (both HR-related and other) that you will be afforded. If you start fishing for new employment, it is possible that HP will notice this and treat you accordingly. That has both positive and negative aspects, but most likely, I would not expect that they will make a counter-offer if you are offered a job at another company.
Although we don't handle IT, outsourcing is a growth area for my company and I can tell you a bit of what it looks like from our side:
* We want to keep the existing talent. We never claim to know the ins and outs of a particular client's culture and processes as well as the existing staff, and that's why we want to hold onto them. Do we hold onto everyone? No, because we get engaged is to reduce costs. But if you're talented and not just taking up space at a desk, we certainly want to keep you around.
* One of our biggest challenges is overcoming culture shock. We'll often move into situations where the prevailing culture is one of under-utilization -- an eight-hour day might have no more than four hours of actual work in it once you scrape away meetings, pointless process overhead and water-cooler idle time. While we want people to thrive, we want them to thrive in a high-utilization environment; at the same time, we're not interested in being slave drivers. So what's the answer? For us, it's been steep incentive curves -- if you want to make more money, we're very up front about giving you all the tools you need to essentially define your own salary based on productivity. (And I'm not merely talking about working more hours -- there are lots of ways to get more productivity without boosting hours.) The biggest challenge we find in taking employees out of an existing culture and transitioning them into ours is instilling that entrepreneurial spirit, the notion that if you want to make a third more next month or next year, it's within your power to do so.
"It was a summer's tale: Just a boy, his Linux, and a head full of dreams..."
I understand your distress. You've made a commitment to a company only to find out that what you've committed to is about to change. You've been focused on doing your job, thinking that doing so would advance your career, and now you need to focus on doing your career instead.
If you like working at a smaller company, go ahead and start interviewing for another job. You might find that you hate working in a large, impersonal institution. On the other hand, many people seem to thrive when they enter the belly of the beast. But keep your head up and your eyes open because change is coming.
Good luck.
Best regards.
I got outsourced about 8 years ago. I felt terribly betrayed. I almost bailed, but I didn't, and I'm glad. I think the best advice is the try it and see how if feels for a little while. In the end it's the same desk, same job, different name on the paycheck, and I've actually been getting better raises than before.
Rather than dwell on the difficulties of change. And you will find the opportunities. It is distressing to experience major upheaval. But I also find it invigorating because of the new opportunites presented.
What's interesting though, is that important (noisy senior management) people still get their stuff fixed quickly, because the outsource group soon figures out who butters their bread and makes sure to focus on those people and systems. It's all the rest of the schmoes in the client company who see a big spike in response times, lost tickets, crappy service, etc. True story example: Two days to get a password reset.
I've been working in the same position/job for 9 years, now. In that time, my job/software division has changed companies a half dozen times.
First thing is, know how important your job really is, and know how many of your fellow co-workers are planning on jumping ship. In one of the transitions I went through, I ended up with an extra 1,500 stock options, a large cash bonus, and the right to work from my house just to stick around, because everyone else in my department found other employment. Since I work in a small group in a big company, losing 75% of the staff and the only U.S. based person wasn't an option the company could afford, so they made it worth my while to not job hunt.
The second thing is, your resume should NEVER be dusty, unless you already have your dream job and security out the wazoo. You should also consider keeping your interviewing skills sharp by going on a job interview once a year, even if you don't plan on taking the job. You don't want to blow the interview because you're rusty, or feeling too much pressure to HAVE to land a job.
It sucks to go through this, but you will survive it. Just be smart, don't close yourself off from various opportunities by moving too fast in one direction, and good luck!
Don't panic. This is the only advice that I can give to you becuase no matter what you do now, chances are that your role has been already been discussed and realigned by somebody. If you start worrying and stressing about the situation you will eventually hurt yourself (well, your health) and become miserable. Stay calm, update a resume and start looking for a job.
If you have never worked for a very large company, you will be in for surprise. As somebody has posted already, guys like HP, IBM and MSFT are different. Too much red tape. Takes forever to get simple stuff done. Internal IT help is non-existent (everything is outsourced to somewhere in India). In other words it is highly likely that you're going to be in for a chnage.
I have been on both sides of the equation and I can tell you for a fact that a regular Joe can do very little to affect his position. Unless you have a written contract in writing, your fate is up in the air. I guess you can really screw things up and act all negative about this deal. This way HR will blacklist your name and you'll become expandable right away. So stay calm, review your resume and enjoy the ride.
You will also have been made promises by your current employer.
These now have no value, indeed reminding them of their commitments, even when made in writing will just get you added to the list of "troublemakers", which will hurt your chances of choosing when you leave.
As well as the "great opportunities in HP" BS, there will be loads of what sound like firm promises of training in new sexy tech, promotion, or whatever they think will convince you to stay for a while.
Also be very aware that outsourcers really do not care if the work you do is critical or hard to replace.
I'm a headhunter, so I genuinely believe job ads.
Yes. really.
I believe HP job ads that say
"Business Development $X+ share options"
"Pre Sales Support $X/2 + Package"
"Post Sales Support $X/4 + Free Coffee"
Getting the business is what they care about, delivery is simply not an issue. HP are not much worse than any other outsourcer, it is simply the way that sort of business operates.
Dominic Connor,Quant Headhunter
I work for HP right now, but will be quitting in a few weeks. You definitely don't want to work for a cost-cutting crazy CEO. Far too many complaints that I have working here, so I'm leaving. I worked there for six months and I am the 6th person under my manager's manager, who only has about 30 people working for him, to quit.
(Note: I left DHL for another company shortly after their takeover of Airborne, so things may have changed since then)
Well, for a multinational like DPWN, the term "Outsourcing" from a geographic sense is a bit tricky to define. They are based in Germany, and have major data centers in Asia, the US, and Europe. Furthermore, since DPWN and DHL both farmed out a lot of their development to Indian and Romanian subcontractors, "outsourcing" to HP in the logical sense may bring more jobs to countries like the US.
It's interesting that DPWN is doing this. When I was working for DHL I remember the business units having an rather contentious relationship with IT (I'm sure that's true at a lot of places, but it seemed more pronounced at DHL). And many clients feared "upgrades" of the DHL EasyShip software because they often came with more bugs and performance issues than the versions they replaced.
I've been through exactly the same thing, 2 years ago. And it's been quite a torment. You don't specify if you're married with kids, but think of your family first. And please forget everything about corporate belonging, you are being sold as merchandise, albeit too expensive to maintain.
Since you're an IT guy in an non IT company, you are part of a team that fixes things so they end up working, not necessarily according to some grand master plan of IT management and profitability. You have skills that are sought by other non-IT Co's.
If DHL is signing you away, it's to lower costs. HP signs knowing they must slash to cut costs. This will end up in disarray, customer dis-satisfaction and a major loss in company culture.
This spells trouble; maybe the last managers tried it, now a B-I-G IT corporation will try to do better. I don't know about HP, maybe they are swell, most likely, it will depend on your manager which may be your current one. I would recommend that you leave ASAP. First, because you can still flee the sinking ship, and it is one. Second, because you don't want to end up going home all messed-up with your kids and your wife get to see you depressed because things are going hay-wire, and they will!!
I have a friend that left before the contract was signed, and I endured for 18 months. He's way better off than I am, and I wish I would have known what I know now, back then.
Your call.
Bounce...this is a good excuse. Your salary will ne ver keep up staying at the same place while your young. Take your experience and apply it somewhere else for better pay. You can always come back...and you'll be making substantially more money even if you come back to the same position.
Send out some resumes. Then taste the new Corporate Kool-Aid. If it tastes like bitter almonds, send out more resumes. You don't have to take a job that isn't better than what you already have.
If it's a "hostile outsourcing" where the outsourcing company bullies the client into accepting their services, you might not want to be involved in the resulting bad blood with the surviving rank-and-file. In that case I'd say it's time to move on.
If you don't think the new company is a good fit, it may be time to move on.
If the culture/pay (whatever you're after) is good and the level of hostility is low enough, (or you don't care) go for it.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
"Then I began hearing about the opportunities HP has internally.."
Thats the brainwash statement. There are no opportunities when it comes to outsourcing. Take it from me, I have 24 years of software development experience.
EVERYONE loses. You lose your job. The local economy loses your tax revenue and your purchasing abilities. We, the customers of HP lose in terms of quality (yes, its true corporate America, the quality of items, software or not, produced in India and China and elsewhere SUCKS at best). And, eventually, the employer loses because we, the customer leave.
Thanks for the heads up. I like doing business with American companies who keep jobs here, the tax-base here and the spending power here. I like purchasing American only products NOT because I dont like India or China, but because things made in the USA are always better. At least they used to be. They used to be made with pride.
Thanks to these new-fangled corporate buffoons, employees here in the USA have nothing but comptempt for their employers.
Yea.... keep that resume handy. Eventually the interviewer will ask if you are capable of saying "would you like fries with that order", since all of the high-paying jobs as leaving this country and being replaced with jobs at Target, Home Depot and Borders.....
Outsourcing sucks no matter which way you slice it and no matter how much people try to sugar coat it.
Read "Who moved my cheese" by Spencer Johnson. Then get your commercial pilots license, move to Alaska and fly tourists around the bush. Worked for me, and I haven't worried a single minute since about this crap.
I think you are doing the right thing and assess your options.
Here are the three things I'd do.
* Make a list of what you like and dislike about the current job. Assess your skills and accomplishments and what you have learned. Brush up your CV/Resume. ...). See what jobs you might qualify for and seek out some recruiters, may be even get some Interviews (just for training purposes).
* Brush up your network and networking skills. Reconnect to old friends and work colleagues, project team members. Check who has gone where and what they are doing now. Write birthday e-mails and Holiday cards. Talk to your parent's friends as well. Update your networking tools (Addressbook, social networks, LinkedIn, Plaxo, Suit, Tie, etc.). Let your network know you are merged and don't know if you might move on. Discuss with your network what they like about their jobs.
* Look at the current job market under your other life constraints (i.e. stay local, no travel,
Armed with that you will have the confidence that you'll need to negotiate what ever comes your way. And you can move into job search mode at a moment's notice. And may be just may be you find an opportunity you can't refuse, before anybody ask you to make a decision. You are in control!
Busy helping non technical users of OpenOffice.org - http://plan-b-for-openoffice.org/
If there is no way for sure to know, get the CV ready, but don't be surprised if you don't need it. I was recently employed by a Big Ten School that had talked for years about consolidation of tech departments ... which would likely have eliminated my job ... turns out it was just a big shot at the university-level trying to pad his own resume.
I found myself in this position a few years ago when HP bought my company. The biggest changes were
1. My paycheck looked different.
2. Management red tape doubled.
That is about it. No change in pay, etc. As far as looking for postings inside HP, good luck. Once EDS is brought in there will be more jobs to choose from. Yes, the EDS employees will be going for the same jobs, but the EDS jobs will be available as well. I fully expect for EDS to take over support of internal IT functions very soon, however. This is so the company can more fully digest EDS into one business - For now it will be known as EDS, An HP Company.
the thing to remember is that HP is a very large comany. That means there are pro's and con's to it. I personally don't see it as the "Land of Milk and Honey". Lot's of crap to put up with, but for the most part my job is very stable. I am in the outsourcing division and have a contract covering me. One reason I have not moved over to internal support is because those are the jobs that get moved and/or cut first.
I would recomend getting your resume out there and start looking. Why? I have found it much better to find a better job while you still have one. Also, if this is the only place you have worked since college, then I would recomend interviewing soon. The reason is to get used to the process. This will allow you to see the process and what companies are looking for. (I always get nervous being pushed in front of strangers and having to explain why I should be hired). This can give you the confidence to do better in the interview when you need it. This will give you the time to find the right job for you, with better pay and benefits. If you don't, you still have your job. If your job goes away, you have already started the process. I would allow at least 2 months to find a good job in an OK market. I am talking to one employer that has taken 1 month to just get to the formal interview. If I were out of work, I would panic!
Just my 2 cents worth.
--
My parents went to Slashdot and all I got was this lousy sig.
That means have your resume ready, credit cards paid off, and a savings account. If you can't go six months without any income, just start looking for a job right now.
If you're one of those guys that "does everything" but really has a nebulous job that no one can define, be ready to be fired soon.
Truer words have never been spoken. All of us should constantly be looking for better opportunities. It's much easier to turn a job down than it is to find one when you really need one.
- 6 months of savings.. make it a priority.
- Eliminate debt. Priority number one. What little savings you have will last longer if you have small monthly obligations. ie: what is 6 months of savings? That depends entirely on how much money you need per month.
- Look for some on-the-side work. If you have even a sleepy little consulting gig going on, you can wake it up in times of need and that will buy you some time when looking for something else.
--- Tao
You never want this to be you:
"We need to eliminate one person from your team."
"Crap. But who?"
"What about this guy, what are we paying him for?"
"Not sure."
--- Tao
And when will we see the first outsourcing of India based IT Support companies?
The World is Flat - By Thomas Friedman is a MUST read for anyone concerned with outsourcing and off shoring. In a perfect world, this book would be required reading for high-school students nation wide.
As someone who is still working for HP post acquistion (Compaq) I can say, don't be seduced. Get the resume' ready, move on. The job opportunities are smoke and mirrors, and HP does not believe in giving raises to the rank and file, just the top. Save yourself years of hoping for change, find something else.
I was there for phase one, when DHL bought Airborne Express. The IT department was outsourced to Scottsdale from Seattle because -- hey, cheaper labor! Those who made the move were told they shouldn't expect a raise until their peers' salaries caught up to theirs due to inflation (not that Airborne was ever prone to delivering big pay raises), perhaps a decade-long wait for many. I took the severance offer (6 months' salary) and bid tschuss to Deutsche Post. Never regretted it.
Study business management or some other field of work. The trend to outsource computer jobs will never stop. Find something else to do for a living.
Either that or learn a foreign language so you can travel to foreign nations to train the new employees how to do computer work. Invest in a Rosetta Stone CD.
You also could start up your own small business and try to run your own company. I would suggest small business courses at a community college while on unemployment to learn and talking to the SBA as well. You might be able to win some short term contracts and do computer work from home and be able to pay yourself with some money left over to hire more people. Also look into IT moonlighting web sites for small project work.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
Move to India, or wherever the jobs are going this year? After all, if you can't beat them, join them. (And maybe snag a wife who can make a decent curry.)
Since outsourcing eliminated most of my work, I have been feeling something. I was on Celexa, Lexapro, Paxil... But it was all because I was a lonely /.er with the #0000FFs. I have never heard it put that way before, but that is it. Very clever :-)
Assuming that you don't get "let go" or "laid off", the first thing you will want to do is to buy kneepads if you don't already own a set.
This way, you will be comfortable when you suck your new managers' dicks.
And, you'll be doing it a lot, because there will be more managers than ever, all of whom being paid more than you, while spending most of their time moving from meeting to meeting to conference call to IM session while they demonstrate their cluelessness to anyone with any technical skill.
You'll be called upon to do more, with less, to "cut costs" - the largest additional cost being, of course, the overhead of the above-mentioned managers, who generate no revenue at all.
For the interminable meetings and conference calls that you get roped into for no point whatsoever (they'll pretend to listen to your suggestions, but won't take them, unless it's to take credit for them themselves later), there's Bullshit Bingo.
But, you'll still be expected to do your work, too, so prepare yourself for longer hours with no additional pay.
And if they can get away with it, minor distinctions such as "exempt" and "non-exempt" will be happily ignored whenever possible as a cost-saving measure, trusting that the peons will be too cowed to actually do anything about it... and if they do, well, they can always be fired or "downsized".
Myself, as well as almost the entire IT department (many people spread of over a dozen offices all over North America), including six good friends of mine, were all offshored to Pakistan at different times.
If I could go back, I would have taken the first offshoring as my cue to leave. Nothing good can come of this. But it worked out for the best, as I'm now a programmer for a smaller company, and they do not want to offshore work here at all. If any signs start pointing to it in the future, I'll get out when I see that. I'm not going to be offshored twice in my lifetime.
Anyhow, it's interesting to know that I had to do support for telecom and VoIP for these two call centers in Pakistan. It was a nightmare. The reps were shoving their mics down their throats, and when customers complained they couldn't understand the reps, the reps would yell louder into the mics - monitoring these calls was both funny and frustrating. I had to try and explain to these people many, many times to talk in a normal speaking voice and keep the mic off of their tongues.. Another thing that was funny was that whenever one IT was replaced, he had to be replaced by two or three people in Pakistan, and they still couldn't get the job done in a timely manner, so the benefits of paying less money were basically gone. I'm sure there are people over there who know what they're doing, but almost all of the people I had to deal with were pretty dense and didn't seem to have the skills even close to approaching anyone they were replacing.
Anyhow, if your job is offshored to a company of morons, it couldn't have been great to begin with. Mine wasn't, but the money was good for this small city. I'm in a much better position now, so it really was a blessing in disguise.
If I were younger, I'd probably go into a trade. It's difficult to outsource or offshore a plumber or a roofer.
If HP does not intend to replace your entire unit with one of its own and you are an essential employee, HP should have no qualms about signing an Exit Agreement with you now, to keep you onboard. The agreement is good for them if they are being honest, because it keeps you from worrying about them eliminating your position and letting you go. IT is the first department the buyer makes changes, as that's where the buyer gains the most control.