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Apparent Suicide In Anthrax Case
penguin_dance passes along the news that a respected anthrax researcher, about to be indicted, has committed suicide. The FBI has been investigating the case since anthrax-contaminated letters were sent to the media and various politicians in 2001. The AP's coverage mentions that prosecutors intended to seek the death penalty. The suicide was not the one you might imagine if you've been following the story. "A top government scientist who helped the FBI analyze samples from the 2001 anthrax attacks has died in Maryland from an apparent suicide, just as the Justice Department was about to file criminal charges against him for the attacks, the Los Angeles Times has learned. Bruce E. Ivins, 62, who for the last 18 years worked at the government's elite biodefense research laboratories at Ft. Detrick, Md., had been informed of his impending prosecution... The extraordinary turn of events followed the government's payment in June of a settlement valued at $5.82 million to a former government scientist, Steven J. Hatfill, who was long targeted as the FBI's chief suspect despite a lack of any evidence that he had ever possessed anthrax."
Huh, funny. But he was a terrorist, right?
Belief? Hope? Preference?The Existential Vortex
"Suicide", eh?
"The fight for freedom has only just begun." - Geert Wilders
This isn't the least bit suspicious.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Usually prosecutors decide that long after someone has originally been charged. The important thing is to get someone who is an apparent murderer off the streets and then determine whether the death penalty is valid. I have never heard of it being debated before an arrest. I think the AP's theory is probably bunk.
A suicidal man getting the death penalty. If I rob a bank will they give me double the amount of the cash I steal?
When I die it will likely be a horrible death, like most people - cancer, heart disease, accident, violence, falling down in a nursing home, alzheimers, etc.
But a murderer gets euthanized, like a beloved pet is put down.
I want murderers to spend the rest of their lives horribly and end horribly, like most of us non criminals. I don't mind my tax money going to incarceration of violent people, but I do mind my government murdering in my name. We should join the civilized world and stop executing people.
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
"...injury is deliberately and gradually inflicted upon a person usually for gaining attention or some other benefit." He might have wanted his research to be better recognized and useful. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchausen_syndrome_by_proxy
I've grown increasingly cynical about government in recent years. I wonder, did the feds see that this guy knocked himself off and think, "Hey, here's a perfect target we can accuse and use to divert attention from the Hatfill mess and the fact that we haven't found anybody in 6 years."? Not saying that happened, but it's telling that it was the first thing that went through my mind when I heard this.
Shouldn't they confirm through investigative work that he did in fact commit these crimes rather than just assume since they were about to file charges & that he "committed suicide" that he did it? IT seems like poor reasoning on anyone's part to just assume this is the logical conclusion just because he offed himself before shit hit the fan. What if the suicide was for some completely different reason? Lots of people commit suicide for reasons other than legal troubles.
He just accidentally mixed up his crack and his research material.
Maybe this guy is innocent and when he saw the hell that Hatfill went through, he decided he'd rather check out instead.
Just kidding! ... but not really.
I fail to see how this is relevant to the general slashdot content. I see how it would generate clicks and maybe that's the idea. Which leads me to request a more disciplined alternative to slashdot.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
As I sit here with my tin foil hat on - looking for the conspiracy theory that can explain this. So far the usual suspects don't have anything good. I'm quite sure some ex high level government intelligence agent that wants to do good is here on Slashdot. PLEASE - give us your best conspiracy theory and if you don't have one make one up! This story is RIPE for a good conspiracy theory and I bored.
- cluge
"Science is about ego as much as it is about discovery and truth " - I said it, so sue me.
What's the best way to maintain plausible deniability? Kill the person who actually committed the crime. Your patsy does the dirty work, then you dispose of them.
What could possibly go wrong?
Unfortunately unless he wrote a confession note it's possible that he was simply depressed and the news of being prosecuted as his co-worker was acted as a last impetus to suicide. TIme will tell I suppose.
He also worked at Detrick for a while, but got canned after being busted for harassing a co-worker who was from Egypt. Considering he still had access to the bio labs after he stopped working there, he sure had the means and motive to smuggle out some anthrax for later use.
Guess I was wrong.
Christopher S. 'coldacid' Charabaruk -- coldacid.net
Welcome to the glorious Union of Soviet Capitalist Republics!
In Soviet Russia, ??? suicides you!
But Dubya told me the terrorists were in Iraq!?!
Moreover, significant progress was made in analyzing genetic properties of the anthrax powder recovered from letters addressed to two senators.
I wonder if he faked his analysis and used it to frame Hatfill (the guy the Government had announced as a person of interest, sued the NYTimes and the Justice Dept. for libel and got a big settlement from the later) Also from TFA:
Soon after the government's settlement with Hatfill was announced June 27, Ivins began showing signs of serious strain.
Maybe he knew they were closing in on him?
will be a lot of negative comments about the government. none of which address the crime of someone who put anthrax in the public mail, killing people. regardless of whether or not the guy who just committed suicide did those crimes. finding and prosecuting the guy who did that is job #1, right?
oh right, sorry... the government did the anthrax mailings. right after they did 9/11
(rolls eyes)
folks: healthy distrust of your government is normal and helpful to the functioning of a virbant society
however, rabid, paranoid schizophrenic musings on all evil in the world falling at the government's doorstep is not anywhere near the definition of "healthy distrust". more like pathological hobbling distrust
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Salon has a updated story today http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/01/anthrax/
relating to false information provided to ABC news early on about the investigation. Really makes you wonder what was going on here.
There's no mention of any potential motive for a "top government scientist" to start mailing anthrax.
Why did he (allegedly) do it? Why did it occur in the month following 9/11? What was his relation to the 9/11 terrorists?
Bruce E. Ivins doesn't sound like a Muslim name. Did he have any friends or relatives in the Middle East? I'm disappointed that TFA doesn't address any of these questions. I wonder if they'll ever be answered.
@ASP.NET's parent-teacher meeting: "Little Johnny.NET is very bright, but he doesn't play well with others."
The media and the FBI are a combination made in hell for law and order and justice. Just ask Hatfill and Richard Jewell among many others. There's nothing quite like getting convicted in the court of public opinion thanks to the media for making the FBI's job easier, and there's nothing like a high profile FBI investigation to make a story for the media...
Let's not get everybody all riled up because of yet another government cover-up.
I mean, you really want to start asking questions about JFK?!?
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
Kansas City has the largest underground cities in the world (think Subtropolis, but there are several such installations through the metropolitan area). One of the underground installations is the U.S. Postal Service's largest pre-sort processing center. When the 2001 anthrax attacks occurred, Kansas City's USPS machines in the underground were contaminated with anthrax. They didn't really talk about it in the national media that I noticed, and they only discussed it for a few days in the local media.
Kansas City also has nuclear weapons manufacturies (Honeywell is proposing the construction of a new one) and missile plants in the undergrounds throughout the metro (I know of a missile plant under Independence and the nuke plant is in south KC).
-=/\- Jizzbug -/\=-
The article was, predictably, poor in science, but it sounds like the reason the FBI suspected him was that there was an anthrax contamination that he bleached but didn't report and didn't recheck to be sure nothing survived.
While that would have been a good step to take, anthrax microbes by themselves aren't harmful, in order to be a weapon it needs to be processed. Purified anthrax spores are what will send you to the hospital. I don't know how that's done, but the point is that anthrax growing on your lab bench is not the same as having plutonium all over your lab bench. Anthrax bacterial contamination in a fume hood would be an annoyance, not a serious safety issue.
Furthermore, bleach is a heavy duty sterilizing agent. You douse your bench in bleach and you really don't have to worry about residual contamination in most cases. Reswabbing is easy to do and would have been the right thing to do, but it's understandable that he didn't: it's kind of like checking for a pulse in someone you just burned at the stake.
We're of course not getting the full story, and it's more suspicious that his house was in the area the letters were coming from, but from what the article is saying, it sounds like the FBI may have harassed a man into suicide over "evidence" that would have been dismissed as unimportant if it were put into context.
Why is the US so intent on murdering its own citizens?
Before everyone runs off and drinks yet some more governmental press release kool aid, apply some normal flatfoot 101 to this situation, use a clean slate.
Look at who got the mailings, and when they got the mailings, and what was coincidently in the news at the same time, to establish a probable motive. Also note the "cover letters" which were meant to cast blame on "islamic terrorists", with a lot of death to the infidels and america and israel, etc nonsense written in pidgin misspelled english.
who = news media sources, and two *important* high ranking Dem senators. The first news media source, the tabloid writer in florida, who was infected and later died, is a wildcard, no ties whatsoever with the others for any apparent motive, except one. He was working on a story that dealt with a leadership position in a tangential way, something that would have embarrassed some powerful people. The other newsies were top dogs in their fields, meaning they have huge propaganda influence. Some of the letters were mailed, some hand delivered, but no one is saying by whom, this has never been publicly determined.
when and what = right before debate on the Patriot Act. How coincidental. congress gets shut down, hysteria in the news headlines, anthrax mailings happen, made to look like Abdul J. Jihad did it, patriot act passed easily, despite overwhelming and clearly just plain wrong big brother aspects to it.
So maybe he did it, maybe not, but there are some juicy bits there to think about. Maybe he was meant to be a patsy and fall guy, after first getting his cooperation by enlisiting his sense of "patriotism" and telling him "sometimes you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet" or call it "unfortunate collateral damage, but the strike had to be done". Maybe he was a manchurian brainwashed asset, maybe....but the timing and targets will remain highly suspicious, especially because of the obvious attempt at misdirection and the tremendous political and economic gains to be had by changing the direction of the US in a huge way. And there's your few trillion dollars in motive, along with control of the most powerful government on the planet, and the direction of mideast geopolitical and energy ppolicy, and increasing daily.
Next question: Who profits? Add it up.
You can bet that they decided to prosecute as a Hail Mary type of act. The statute of limitations must have been about to kick in and the only way to prevent the guy from walking away was to indict even if the evidence was next to non existent.
just a repost of the link: http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/01/anthrax/
What's really interesting is the link between Ivins and his strong christian / anti-islamic beliefs that they outline via the letters to the editor he sent in to the Fredrick News Post. http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/news/display.htm?StoryID=78274
... what can most easily be explained by human greed and selfishness.
In other words, the smart money's always on the lone gunman.
This guy could have been the patsy of a vast government conspiracy to terrorize the public by release of anthrax, yes.
But how's this for an alternative? Expert in bioweapons realizes that bioweapons are a serious terrorist threat. Wants to make sure the U.S. takes the threat seriously. Oh and by the way, "taking the threat seriously" happens to provide him with some serious job security. So he slips a little anthrax out of the lab and mails it off to some high-profile folks.
As for suicide versus murder: it's kind of a pain in the butt to force someone to swallow a bottle of pills. Maybe you can do it, but there's gonna be signs of a struggle.
And it's worth noting that he became emotionally unstable and started contemplating suicide, not after the Feds started accusing him of things, but right after his colleague Hatfield was cleared. An innocent man might be a little worried by that news, but a guilty one would be terrified.
I don't know a lot about Islam, but wouldn't a real follower of Islam have written "Allhu Akbar" or the equivalent in Arabic script," ", and not the "Allah is great" that was in the anthrax letters? Seems like this was a pretty crude attempt to pin the scare on Islamic extremists... I'd expect a lot more sophistication from a government conspiracy.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
people who think real life resembles a b-grade hollywood movie plot. if they were comparing this to a bad hollywood movie plot and laughing, i would certainly lighten up and laugh along. in fact, some do make this joke, and i do laugh:
Antisocial scientist behind Anthrax attacks commits suicide before I Am The Law closes in on his Madhouse to Bring The Noise; no word if he was Armed & Dangerous
now that's funny! ;-)
but now read some of the posts here. look for a humours tone. none. you are talking about posters here, go ahead, read some posts, who *actually* believe the government killed this guy and made it look like a suicide. AND they spread the anthrax in the first place. AND they did 9/11. its all masterminded by the top secret cabal you see
there are actual low iq fools, posters in this thread, go ahead, read, who really firmly and honestly believe these things. go ahead, read some posts here, MODDED UP as interesting and informative no less. it is of course a joke. but the really crazy joke are those who take conspiratorial fantasies seriously. and its not a fringe parnaoid schizophrenic few, this cretinous stupidity is mainstream
i mean, creationism is pretty hilarious too, when you think about it. flying spaghetti monster and all that... if creationism weren't taken so seriously by so many fools that they actually warp our education system. the same goes for people who's opinion of government comes from the plot of steven seagal movies. same stupidity, taken very seriously, by enough fools, and you have something that's not funny anymore, but something to seriously denounce as unhealthy for society
i'll say it again:
healthy distrust of your government is normal and helpful to the functioning of a vibrant society
however, rabid, paranoid schizophrenic musings on all evil in the world falling at the government's doorstep is not anywhere near the definition of "healthy distrust". more like pathological hobbling distrust
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I don't really wonder what was going on when three or four "well-placed sources" claimed that government tests had linked the anthrax to Saddam. Just toss the deceit on the pile; I think there's some space in between the "Smoking Gun Mushroom Cloud" and the "Mobile Biological Weapons Laboratories".
What I wonder about is:
Why hasn't ABC outed the people who lied to them?
Why is Glenn Greenwald the only person who seems to care that ABC is protecting government insiders who lied about anthrax attacks?
The suspect is listed as "inventor" on two patents related to anthrax vaccines. Yes, the Government was awarded the patents, so a LAW & ORDER-style financial motive may be absent.
Still the issue date on one of these is a bit chilling...
US Patent 6316006 - Asporogenic B anthracis expression system
US Patent Issued on November 13, 2001
US Patent 6387665 - Method of making a vaccine for anthrax
US Patent Issued on May 14, 2002
http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html
(Search by patent numbers)
Change this?... Friend... Yup, I'm positive ;-)
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
They need to spawn more infantry in Iraq.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Yes, it's a strawman -- do you know what that means? Spend as long as you like defending it then knocking it down if that irrelevance is what is fun for you. Ignore the reality of who was accused and what they may have been trying to accomplish if the accusation is true, or what it means if it is false. In fact, pretend it was never even mentioned, like you did in the worthless post I'm replying to. Strawmen, platitudes, false dichotomy, and most of all deliberate ignorance are what pass for insight for you, and I already said nevermind to that.
The enemies of Democracy are
When I die it will likely be a horrible death
When I get old, I'm moving to Nevada near a legal brothel. I'm going out via the ol' "Whorehouse Haeart Attack."
This guy figured out the anthrax was really being sent out by the government to increase panic.
In all seriousness, why the hell would you charge one of the investigators in the crime?
Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite (TM)
We're fighting in Iraq so we don't have to fight the terrorists here! This guy did the anthrax attacks before we invaded Iraq; once we invaded Iraq, he stopped the attacks. It's pretty obvious that invading Iraq stopped him from further anthrax attacks. My logic is impeccable.
As someone that got his dick caught in a door by some cops using very very shady maneuvers.... The government zealously threatening to ruin your life as you know it can easily lead you to thoughts of suicide. I went as far as carrying a bottle of carbon monoxide and mask around in the spare tire compartment of my car in case things went south quickly during the legal process. I was not about to become someone's bitch for something I didn't even do, and apparently neither was Dr. Ivin. I honestly can't blame him. When I was in that situation suicide seemed like the wisest thing TO do considering how my life would be after going thru the prison system. I kept thinking that if I didn't kill myself now, I'd be sitting in prison, innocent!, and wishing I had. Luckily, I guess you could say, I was able to pay a lawyer THOUSANDS of dollars to eventually get the case thrown out on entrapment (after a year and a half of HELL). When you are a good person and get in a sticky situation with the chips stacked against you.... you mental health turns to the dark side rather quickly. May he rest in peace.
"The irony when tending a flock of sheep is the dogs you put in place to protect them are genetically mutated wolves"
"a rabid supporter of Bush policies and doctrine"
i hate gw bush and his policies, and have said so about 1,000 times
it might be convenient to heap everyone you disagree with into one giant stereotype of all you consider evil, but in the real world, different people actually have different beliefs and motivations, and you actually have to pay attention to what they actually say. because you didn't respond to me. you put a post under my comment attacking some deranged bogeyman i bear no resemblence too. poor social skills dude
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Government arranging for a causus belli is the traditional way to start wars and drive people to support things. Even Sun Tzu taught this. - Is it so far fetched that the teachings of the holy book of US military might have been used in arranging for "a new Pearl Harbor"?
Apparently to you it is, but also Cheney seems to have done it again, just recently, concerning Iran:
To Provoke War, Cheney Wanted Navy Seals As Iranians
Now, how far fetched is it to bribe an anthrax scientist to send letters and then help cover up the deed inside the investigating team?
Do remember, Dick Cheney went on Cipro a month before the letters started.
dude, i'm outright sarcastically making fun of you. there is no respect from me to your paranoia
do you know why people believe in ufos? why they believe in angels? why they believe in demons, monsters, bogeymen?
because the world is full of uncertainty, and the unknown. the unknown is terrifying. people need a security blanket, they need answers to the unknown
so they invent them. to assuage their terror, people invent narratives in their minds, invisible secret characters that do and say awful things in the world
for some people, this is dracula, for some people this is mephistopheles, and for some people, this is agent smith: the g-man in a suit with dark shades and an earpiece. doing sinister secret things that make Bad Things (tm) happen in their world, to keep the Secret Cabal (tm) in power
but please, you should ignore me. i'm obviously a fooled stupid sheeple, one who does not see the terrifying Super Secret Truth (tm), and swallows the lies of the gubmint to fool the simple stupid sheeple. or even worse, i could be one of Them (tm)!
or, better said than me:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=633193&cid=24438091
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
cia's scapegoat.
that there are lying sacks of shit in the government who manipulate fear for political gain: true
therefore, terrorism is not actually real: wtf?
BEEP BEEP BEEP
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
They're pretty commonplace these days. Sounds like a plot from The Avengers.
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
I just recently watched Zeitgeist [Zeitgeistthemovie.com], and found its theory that the government was the one that attacked the WTC towers, hard to stomach... but in light of Irwin's death, a high level official, and the osurce of the anthrax quite possibly from a US Bio-chem lab.... Zeitgeist is becoming frighteningly real.
The talking heads on the right will try to spin the issue in a favorable light: they'll blame his suicide on Clinton.
occam's razor
look it up
cuts through paranoid schizophrenic drivel like you just wrote above like a hot knife through dick cheney's belly button lint
do you know why people believe in ufos? why they believe in angels? why they believe in demons, monsters, bogeymen?
because the world is full of uncertainty, and the unknown. the unknown is terrifying. people need a security blanket, they need answers to the unknown
so they invent them. to assuage their terror, people invent narratives in their minds, invisible secret characters that do and say awful things in the world
for some people, this is dracula, for some people this is mephistopheles, and for some people, this is agent smith: the g-man in a suit with dark shades and an earpiece. doing sinister secret things that make Bad Things (tm) happen in their world, to keep the Secret Cabal (tm) in power
but please, you should ignore me. i'm obviously a fooled stupid sheeple, one who does not see the terrifying Super Secret Truth (tm) that you and you alone have figured out all by yourself! obviously, i swallow the lies of the gubmint to fool the simple stupid sheeple. or even worse, i could be one of Them (tm)!
or, better said than me:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=633193&cid=24438091
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
The reason is that the anthrax was found on the stamping machine and then in mail rooms. It was obvious that it leaked. But it only leaked at the beginning and end of a supposed trip. None was found in bags, on other mails, etc. That alone should be enough evidence to show that somebody took the mail into the local post office, got it stamped, and then left. It most likely did not travel through the normal route. It is doubtful that this guy had enough knowledge of the post office to pull it off.
Excellent - a scapegoat that can't sue.
---
See this movie - http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
look it up
apply it to your questions
so a random asshole sends anthrax at a time of tension for whatever random insane reason. perhaps it is exactly for the reasons you think the letters were sent as you write above
ok
now you and i both agree that warhawks intent on war is insane and fringe
ok
but this is where we differ: it is impossible for this random asshole not to be a warhawk on his very own? that's what i would think. but no: in your mind it is more likely that a dark sinister cabal controlled his actions?
what?
why couldn't these actions be for all of the asshole warhawk reasons both you and i despise, but done all on the initiative of one random warhawk asshole? warhawk beliefs only emanate from dick cheney's secret lair? warhawk beliefs are never arrived at through individual initiative? all warhawk assholes are under the guidance and dominance of the super duper top secret dick cheney batcave?
you want to tell me that individual warhawk asshole initiative is LESS LIKELY than a dark secret cabal working sinisterly in the background like some goddamn steven seagal movie
you really believe that?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
and they prove exactly what?
its not your "facts" you see me dancing a strawman in front of
but please, why do you keep responding? who am i to doubt the vast secret YOU alone have stumbled upon!
what do yur "facts" prove, friend?
please, educate me. i'm all ears
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
dick cheney: warhawk asshole
john mccain: warhawk asshole
this anthrax scientist: deranged warhawk asshole
so far, both you and i have nothing to disagree about
my conclusion: individual initiative by random warhawk assholes sure can wreak a lot of havoc in the world
your conclusion: a top secret dark cabal of warhawk assholes controls all these manipulations in a finely tuned agenda
WTF?!
occam's razor friend, look it up
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
gw bush: warhawk asshole
dick cheney: warhawk asshole
john mccain: warhawk asshole
this anthrax scientist: deranged warhawk asshole
so far, both you and i have nothing to disagree about, right?
and now we radically diverge:
my conclusion: individual initiative by random warhawk assholes sure can wreak a lot of havoc in the world, dang
your conclusion: a top secret dark cabal of warhawk assholes controls all these manipulations in a finely tuned agenda
WTF?!
the question our disagreement depends upon is whether or not being a warhawk asshole is an aspect of individual initiative, or an aspect of a top secret organization from a steven seagal movie
apply occams razor and decide
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Just asking... being "willfully stupid, unable to grasp nuance" was pretty much trademarked by that generation.
If your objective is to appeal to the stupid, remember that Bush won the 2004 election.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
If you check out the spin in the headlines , you can already tell that they are trying to convict the dead guy for carrying out the attacks.
In a couple of days or so, they will spin it all as 'case closed', in the hope that everyone forgets the real story.
If the guy had been 'suicided' too early, that would have taken away the talking point that Iraq was behind the anthrax attacks.
Now, that the bush administration has declared 'mission accomplished', it may have been time to clean up loose ends.
</tinfoil>
You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
EOM
The Man Who Never Was was a wonderful story, or at least I found it to be wonderful reading in 7th grade when I read it... The U.S. government sought and received permission from a woman whose husband died to use his body in the misdirection.
I agree, there's a good chance that woman's husband's body very likely saved many many lives.
Expected value in probability: compare the effort of investigating thoroughly, and decide:
1) Verify that Ivins is just a lonely loonie (most likely), having spent the investigative resources needed to show merely that labs should be more careful,
vs
2) Don't bother checking more carefully, and discover that there really were war causing assholes who used this loonie to advance their nefarious causes.
I think the lonely loonie hypothesis is correct but I support making sure that's really true.
There are too many people with too much power wielded in secret in our government, especially recently.
You trust ABC!? The only station more biased than them is FOX.
Seriously, compare stories on Google news sometimes. It generally becomes pretty obvious which ones are out in left field, alone.
Also, they uncovered the Bush administration's program to have various generals and high ranking military types feed info to the press. My bet would be that some of them were the original sources. There's no proof, of course, but I can't imagine who else would try to frame Iraq and it fits with what's already widely known.
that demand I believe in the competence of the Bush administration implausible. Is that what they want me to think?
There is proof that Ivins was not working alone:
Vital unresolved anthrax questions and ABC News
Bilderbergers.
You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
Did he really commit sucide???? or was it something else??? Could certain individuals from the government somehow solved the problem of possibility having another person of interest proving himself innocent causing them more embarrassment????
The world will never know...
Nice Fucking Life!
One doesn't need to be Muslim to be a terrorist. Timothy McVeigh was a Christian. The terrorists who assassinate doctors who perform abortions are Christians. Wikipedia says Bruce E. Ivins was a Roman Catholic. Terrorists can be any religion.
That may be true, but in this case that makes no sense at all. Letters were mailed with the anthrax indicating that Muslims were responsible for the anthrax attacks. Your argument is thus implying that a Christian made attacks to further supposedly Muslim goals while pretending to be a Muslim.
That makes absolutely no sense:
!) Christian carries out attacks while pretending to be a Muslim Terrorist
2) ??????
3) ??????
Keep in mind that the anthrax letters were sent only to Democratic senators and news outlets critical of Bush, and the National Enquirer photo editor that published unflattering pictures of the Bush twins. The Patriot Act also passed right away with barely any dissenters, giving the government sweeping new powers. There are also reports of highly placed government officials warning "helpful" journalists to get the cure for Anthrax ahead of the attacks. That would make your Christian terrorist acting to further Republican goals. Oh wait...
Given:
At his home lab or on his lunch hour, this man weaponized anthrax better than the US best labs could.
A practicing Catholic, he mails poison as retribution to "evil America and Israel" and hurray for Allah.
We have seen the scientific capabilities of the Arab world (excusez moi), including Saddam, his WMDs and drones. (IIRC he did have US supplied anthrax)
The material's origin is traced to US labs.
Ignoring SPECTRE, which is fictitious
Q:
Which country might have full access to US resources, whether tanks, planes, money, nuclear resources and possibly biological materials?
Which country might have better scientists, better able to weaponize anthrax than the US?
Which country might want to link itself to the US as a target for Arab terrorists? That is not beyond killing Americans as needed?
A:
Mossad black flag operation!
No, dummy. Oswald, I mean Irvins, obviously did it, case closed. And don't look at how hot dogs are made either.
All that time those letters they said were sent by a terrorist blah blah blah and it turns out it was from our own government? Top scientist even? And here people are poohpooing those that believe that 9/11 was done by the government... really, there's the hot bed of terrorists right there!
"Apparent Suicide In Anthrax Case"
-----As if the motives behind death caused by swallowing a *MASSIVE* dose of Tylenol With Codeine weren't obvious enough.....
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
With 9-11 we had some Islamic wackos. With Oklahoma City, we had home-grown nut jobs. This thing could have either been Islamic wackos or a home-grown nut job, and the FBI has been leaning towards the home-grown nut job for a variety of obvious reasons -- a biggie being the Pidgin note with the Middle-East radical slogans didn't have the correct slant to it for someone who wrote a right-to-left Semitic script like Arabic.
One reasonable comment in a sea of "Cheney did it", "ABC News did it", "Bush did it" on and on and ad nauseum. Is the whole geek community so wound up about telco immunity and the last time you had your toenail clippers taken at the airport that no one can reason about a situation anymore?
As to the FBI hounding the wrong guy, we had this situation before when they were hounding this CIA guy who was being framed by a guy in FBI counter-intelligence named Hanson, who was also a church-going Catholic boy scout type, at least on the surface. Personal disclosure: I am Catholic, but being Catholic doesn't immunize you from mental illness. In Hanson's case, he knew that he had personal demons (OK, a compulsive disorder), but he tried to work his problem within the system of his religion with Opus Dei counselors and the confessional -- this fellow was said to be seeing a therapist.
It was Dr. Philip Zack who previously tried to frame an arab from Ft. Detrick!
It was Dr. Philip Zack who is ON TAPE going into the anthrax storage lab AFTER he quit working there!
And it is Dr. Philip Zack that the FBI has NOT approached - not even questioned him!
google Philip Zack
It sounds like he may have fallen down an elevator shaft full of bullets.
I am the unwilling control for my Origin.
"I was a paratrooper in the 101st, and I wore an onion on my belt as was the style in the times....."
Oh, and I recorded the audio..
Check it out http://www.mediafire.com/?zfvxyipippx
the interview ends rather abruptly after the brother says that his anthrax sending brother can go to hell.
...that this investigation seems to be driven by "Among the whole population of the world, who is one single person, against whom it would be the easiest to find some supposedy incriminating evidence among known facts of his life?" as opposed to "Let's analyze obviously relevant evidence, determine what actually happened, and finally find out who did it".
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
It is becoming increasingly dangerous to be a scientist working for a government.
Just remember the British scientist Dr David Kelly who "committed suicide" prior to the war in Iraq.
See why tinfoil is important?
You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
Ivins was an expert toxicologist but he supposedly decided to commit suicide by a method that takes days, even weeks, and is extremely unpleasant. The following is from eMedicine from WebMD.
Patients with acetaminophen-induced hepatotoxicity present in 4 clinical phases.
Physical
Physical findings vary and depend primarily on the phase of hepatotoxicity.
Botchotech
[Bruce was patently a very sick and depressed man
when he committed suicide and who had been under
increasing pressure and surveillance. Time may
tell whether he was responsible for the
anthrax-filled letters in 2001. In the meanwhile
we would be wise to keep an open mind on this
highly respected anthrax scientist in this storm
of speculation. - Mod.MHJ]From ProMed