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Seattle Flushes $5M High-Tech Toilets

theodp writes "Hopes were high back in 2004 as Seattle's posh public potties opened for business. But four years later, city officials have said good riddance to the five high-tech toilets, self-cleaning and cylindrical, that had cost Seattle $5 million. The city unloaded them on eBay for just $12,549. The commodes had become filthy hide-outs for drug use and prostitution."

433 comments

  1. Just Remember... by bistromath007 · · Score: 5, Funny

    We're talking about Seattle, so most of the people there would've been cool with that if the janitor had just visited more often.

    God, I wish I didn't have to move. ;_;

    1. Re:Just Remember... by Z00L00K · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The insight here was that they were self-cleaning so no need for a janitor.

      But maybe an option should have been that if somebody was there for more than 30 minutes then the self cleaning should have started.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    2. Re:Just Remember... by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hey, the homeless get free showers and the prostitutes stop being dirty*.

      Win/Win.

      *Of course, she might have to do a little gymnastics depending upon the location of the cleansing jets.

      --
      liqbase :: faster than paper
    3. Re:Just Remember... by nbert · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The insight here was that they were self-cleaning so no need for a janitor.

      Let's see: They estimated maintenance costs of $600,000 a year. I don't know much about wages in the US, but it's fair to assume that 5 janitors would have done the job at a lower price.

      Ignoring the price tag and maintenance cost I'm still wondering why those toilets failed in Seattle. We have toilets from the same manufacturer over here (Berlin, DE) and they don't attract much drug abuse or prostitution, because if you spend too much time in there the door simply opens.
      I'm not kidding, it happened to a friend of mine who for some reason unknown to me decided to roll a joint in there. Since he told me I've stopped using them for their intended purpose.

    4. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We have toilets from the same manufacturer over here (Berlin, DE) and they don't attract much drug abuse or prostitution, because if you spend too much time in there the door simply opens.
      I'm not kidding, it happened to a friend of mine who for some reason unknown to me decided to roll a joint in there. Since he told me I've stopped using them for their intended purpose.

      A) Funny parts bolded.

      B) Your friend is slow. I suggest a rolling machine.

    5. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The insight here was that they were self-cleaning so no need for a janitor.

      But maybe an option should have been that if somebody was there for more than 30 minutes then the self cleaning should have started.

      So homeless people that want to use the bathroom and get a shower just have to hang out for a half hour? Cool. Its a win win. We get cleaner homeless people and they get the use of a 3/4 bath, shower and toilet. I think it's a great idea.

    6. Re:Just Remember... by Danse · · Score: 1

      We have toilets from the same manufacturer over here (Berlin, DE) and they don't attract much drug abuse or prostitution, because if you spend too much time in there the door simply opens.
      I'm not kidding, it happened to a friend of mine who for some reason unknown to me decided to roll a joint in there. Since he told me I've stopped using them for their intended purpose.

      I just read an article about these self-cleaning toilets a few weeks ago. I think it was about New York getting some, or considering getting some, in order to ease their problems with lack of public restrooms. The article said that if you stay in there for more than 15 minutes, the door would just open automatically. That was considered to be a deterrent to people using them for "alternative purposes."

      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    7. Re:Just Remember... by smilindog2000 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm always amazed at how stupid city councils can be. I live in Chapel Hill, and ours is out-there. Our downtown is suffering from stiff competition from South Point and other new shopping locations. Many stores are closed up, and our downtown may suffer a long slow decay. So what do we do? Our city council's actions over the last 8 years:

      - Bring a homeless shelter 1 block from the center of town
      - Build benches along the main street, one block from the homeless shelter
      - Increase parking rates, and make sure to provide no 2-hour free or validated parking

      Brilliant... just brilliant. Here's a story about our mayor. Our hospital is accessed by a congested two-lane road from the south, and ambulances get stuck just like all the rest. UNC wants to widen the road, and there's plenty of legit reasons why many people oppose the plan. Why does our mayor oppose it? He is opposed to all additional road surface. His compromise plan? Allow the road to be widened, but then remove the pavement from a 4-lane road north of town to offset the total paved area.

      The city council actually passed this plan. When the city called the DOT and asked for the road to be narrowed, the poor guy over there had no idea what to do. There's no road narrowing department at the DOT. Top level people at the DOT were consulted, and it is now standard at DOT to ignore any silly Chapel Hill requests!

      --
      Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
    8. Re:Just Remember... by db32 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Hitler was effective government. Stalin was effective government. You sir are clearly living in the safest place on the planet due to what is probably the most innane and ineffective government around. Be happy.

      --
      The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
    9. Re:Just Remember... by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      FTFA: "The commodes had become filthy hide-outs for drug use and prostitution."

      I was thinking, these things must be custom made for Hollywood!!

      Bathrooms that automatically dispense coke and hookers.

      Aside from the 'dirty' part described in the article, I fail to see a real downside here??

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    10. Re:Just Remember... by gsgriffin · · Score: 1

      Even starting with people still in it may not have done it. Let's see, someone on drugs..."cool, its raining, Dude." Someone with a hooker, ...shower ;)

      --
      jsut athnoer menagiensls ltitle psrhae for you to dcoede. Why do we wtsae our tmie dnoig tihs?
    11. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But maybe an option should have been that if somebody was there for more than 30 minutes then the self cleaning should have started.

      And that is exactly what the public toilets in NYC do. They are similar self-cleaning high tech toilets. The time limit is around 15 minutes before the door opens automatically so you need to "work fast" to finish your business. ;)

    12. Re:Just Remember... by Bastard+of+Subhumani · · Score: 1

      Ignoring the price tag and maintenance cost I'm still wondering why those toilets failed in Seattle.

      BSOD? And this time, B doesn't stand for blue...

      --
      Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
    13. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Read the original article from 2004 (link in head). These DID open after 15 mins. Apparently drug users and prostitutes managed anyway, and also managed to vandalize the cleaning mechanisms so they no longer worked.

      Also read the politician's promises in 2004 that this would not be a problem and could easily be prevented.

    14. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck...Godwin's Law already?

    15. Re:Just Remember... by fish+waffle · · Score: 4, Insightful

      An expensive, fragile, high-tech gadget is dumped into the public space and ends up broken? I'm shocked.

      I wonder how the argument for these went:

      1. Do you suppose the automatic door-opening could possibly fail or be defeated? No, our technology is foolproof.

      2. Do you suppose people may clog it up in a variety of artful ways? No, why would anyone purposefully mess up a public bathroom?

      3. Do you suppose it may become a way-station for illegal acts that requires around 15min of privacy? No, all illegal acts require very long times and abundant space.

      4. Isn't it expensive to buy/install? Don't worry, people excrete almost continually, the money will just pour in.

      5. Won't it be expensive to maintain? No, modern technology maintains itself.

    16. Re:Just Remember... by Idaho · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A) Funny parts bolded.

      B) Your friend is slow. I suggest a rolling machine.

      A) "Heh". You must be from the US, where smoking the green stuff at all is automatically equivalent to "drug abuse". So here's a newsflash: alcohol and tobacco are drugs too, and highly physically addictive ones at that (much unlike weed), but using those (in moderation) is fine and does not constitute "drug abuse".

      B) True ;) Though if it took him 15+ minutes then surely he was not very practiced, so see (A) w.r.t. using the stuff in moderation. That's not abuse ;)

      --
      Every expression is true, for a given value of 'true'
    17. Re:Just Remember... by Poltras · · Score: 1

      Yeah, sure. You blame the prostitutes? I blame society.

    18. Re:Just Remember... by rgviza · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Define "safe".

      The U.S. has the biggest prison population in the world and outside of the various war zones, the most homicides and violent crime per capita of any country who has a government. You call that freedom?

      The United States Government is an epic failure because it's rotten from the inside and run by self serving morons.

      -Viz

      --
      Don't kid yourself. It's the size of the regexp AND how you use it that counts.
    19. Re:Just Remember... by cnaumann · · Score: 4, Informative

      The reason they can't open the doors after a couple of minutes has to do with ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act). At least that is according to Norman Augustine in Augustine's Laws. By law the toilets must be accessible to handicapped persons. It can take a handicapped person a long time to get there business done.

    20. Re:Just Remember... by MikeyVB · · Score: 4, Interesting

      We have these same toilets here in Holland, and I have also seen them in Spain. They don't seem to have the same problems the article, but I did notice one big difference in the way they are operated is this: Here in Europe you have to pay 50c to use them. In Seattle they seemed to have been free. I doubt any junkie that has to scrape together money for a fix will waste an extra 50c so they can sit on a toilet while they shoot up. I bet that little 50c hassle is probably enough to deter most of people that cause all the problems.

    21. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Machines are like any other paraphernalia. Why carry around a card-box sized machine when my fingers can do the trick in the same amount of time?

      The time waster is in grinding (by hand)

      And is it just me? Or does smoking in a public restroom reek of desperation? Can't the dude find a nice secluded public park or maybe his parents basement instead?

    22. Re:Just Remember... by Chyeld · · Score: 1

      It was 15 minutes. No cleaning, the doors just popped open to expose you in all your glory.

      And while the idea was 'no need for a janitor' it turned out that "self cleaning" didn't include the ability to handle the amount of garbage people were leaving in them, so they still had to have a visit regularly to clean them out.

    23. Re:Just Remember... by Chyeld · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The difference, I imagine, is in the 'quality' of the public that surrounds the toilets. The particular venue these were installed at in Seattle is a prime tourist area mixed in with a hefty homeless population.

      And since it is thriving with tourists, there is a bit of a crime problem as the more enterprising homeless find ways of making do off them.

      I've never visited Berlin, but my limited knowledge of it is you enjoy moderately pleasant, if unpredictable, summers with bitter winters. That tends to keep the homeless population either down or 'pinned down' to specific areas.

      There hasn't been one time that I've visited Seattle/downtown and not had a problem avoiding tripping over people living on the streets there. It didn't matter where in the area I was.

      Granted, that was downtown. But still, you'd have to be a fool to put out any sort of public facilities there without either the expectation that either they would be trashed almost immediately and continuously, or that you'd have to actually pay someone to monitor them almost 24/7.

    24. Re:Just Remember... by Kagura · · Score: 2, Funny

      Just be happy you don't live in Fort Bragg. The mayor there makes me wake up at 6:00am every morning! :(

    25. Re:Just Remember... by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Bathrooms that automatically dispense coke and hookers.

      Just like the ones at Robert Downey's house.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    26. Re:Just Remember... by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Informative

      IT's against state law in Washington to charge for public toliets. Otherwise, they probably would have a small fee.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    27. Re:Just Remember... by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Pay toilets were popular in the U.S. in the 1970s. They ended up being banned in many cities; where they weren't, vandalism and theft put them out of business.

      If you consider that the alternative to free public toilets is people pissing, even crapping, in the alleys, then free public toilets are clearly a public good. If people are using them for prostitution and drug use, if homeless people are using them for shelter, that's a symptom of deeper problems. These problems ought to be solved by removing laws against consensual crimes and by addressing homelessness with affordable housing and decent health care - not by encouraging people to piss in the alley.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    28. Re:Just Remember... by Tom · · Score: 3, Informative

      Please RTFA. Among other details:

      a) The self-cleaning broke down somewhere during the 4 years
      b) It already has a time-limit (15 minutes) after which it simply opens the door

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    29. Re:Just Remember... by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      There hasn't been one time that I've visited Seattle/downtown and not had a problem avoiding tripping over people living on the streets there.

      Not to worry. An upcoming Pearl Jam reunion tour will decrease the local homeless population by five.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    30. Re:Just Remember... by smilindog2000 · · Score: 1

      So do my kids! Anyway, if you're in the military there, I wish you the best of luck, and thanks for your service!

      --
      Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
    31. Re:Just Remember... by BlackSnake112 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If weed is not addictive, why do so many people have to smoke it (not those or medical reason, regular health people). They crave it, they need it. I have seen a bunch of people (more then 30) where smoking weed was more important then everything else (working, bathing, going to work/school). All those people were weak and could have gotten addicted to anything? Weed is not addicting? Something does not add up.

      I know I am going to be flamed into hell for this. But I do not see it. If one smokes weed 1-2 a week so what. The ones who smoke it 5-6 times a day every day and need to smoke it every day, that is an addiction. Most drugs (not all) taken in moderation are not harmful. I would say all drugs taken in extreme amounts are harmful.

    32. Re:Just Remember... by b0bby · · Score: 2, Insightful

      These problems ought to be solved by removing laws against consensual crimes and by addressing homelessness with affordable housing and decent health care - not by encouraging people to piss in the alley.

      I agree with you on the consensual crimes, but homelessness isn't likely to be solved by affordable housing. Many (most?) long term homeless people have serious addiction or mental health issues. Decent mental health care would probably have a big impact, along with rehab programs.

    33. Re:Just Remember... by TheLostSamurai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The drug itself is not addictive. The effects of the drug are addictive. This is true of anything really. If it makes you feel better than you usually do, you can get addicted to it. This is the same reason that for some, even exercise can be addictive.

      Luckily I do not suffer from that particular affliction.

      --
      I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
    34. Re:Just Remember... by Atrox666 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I've seen people do far more harm to themselves with a World of Warcraft addiction than a pot addiction. Just because some losers may not be able to handle something doesn't mean the people who aren't losers should be denied the use of it. That kind of thinking is a race to the bottom because there are always idiots who can't handle any given freedom.

    35. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      This is why English Public Schools designed to scrub up young gentlemen and closet young ladies have installed cameras in the bogs http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7567193.stm (17th August 2008) so they can't get a sneaky fag in without getting buggered or damage the Johnny machine since the Headmaster stopped their Friday-night rubber allowance http://glyndaviesam.blogspot.com/2007/12/have-good-weekend-children.html.

      Meanwhile, the revolting parents are demanding that "free condom Friday" be re-instated by the school ...

      Once again, Blighty is ahead of the game in urban anti-terror educational re-adjustment bodily function pacification!

      In France, zey just pis in ze bushes.

    36. Re:Just Remember... by Dragonslicer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Marijuana is mentally addictive, where the person has the mental/emotional desire to smoke. Tobacco (and drugs such as heroin) are physically addictive, since they affect the chemical workings of the brain and produce physical withdrawal symptoms.

      Alcohol I'm not certain about. I've drank enough to know that it doesn't produce any kind of physical addiction the way that drugs like heroin do. I think alcoholism is a mental/functional disease, not a physical/chemical disease, but I obviously can't speak with any kind of authority.

    37. Re:Just Remember... by btm · · Score: 1

      The insight here was that they were self-cleaning so no need for a janitor.

      Actually only parts of them were self-cleaning, they were still visited regularly. From the ebay listing: "Unit has been manually cleaned an average of twice per day by the company"

    38. Re:Just Remember... by infosinger · · Score: 1

      So, let me get this straight. By prohibiting a small fee it is unworkable to have these public toilets in Seattle which means they have to get ripped out. How does this make toilets more accessible to those without the $.50?

    39. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The article said that if you stay in there for more than 15 minutes, the door would just open automatically.

      That's ok... I only need 5. Works out just nicely for her too... her soup finishes just about then too.

    40. Re:Just Remember... by Smauler · · Score: 2, Informative

      You know wrong about alcohol. It is pretty difficult to get physically addicted to alcohol (I should know), but it is most definately possible. Part of the pain of a hangover is withdrawal symptoms, which is why hair of the dog can be effective. It is also, as far as I know, the only drug which can kill you with withdrawal symptoms. Yup, that's right - hardcore alcoholics can't just go cold turkey, because the withdrawal symptoms include death. It is truly a nasty nasty drug if you actually get addicted.

    41. Re:Just Remember... by The+Great+Pretender · · Score: 1

      I think it was about New York getting some, or considering getting some, in order to ease their problems with lack of public restrooms.

      I understand that they're moving ahead with the project, due to just finding a really good 5-pack, slightly-used, deal on eBay.

      --
      A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
    42. Re:Just Remember... by jgarra23 · · Score: 1

      The problem with the toilets in seattle was that the same people Garbage Collection for the toilets handled Garbage Collection for .NET.

      No wonder they both suck!!

    43. Re:Just Remember... by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      Just to make it easy (and maybe spark a little thought):

      They are roomy, well-lit and completely private -- for 15 minutes.

      "People will be more likely to use them because they stay clean," said Susan Stoltzfus, a spokeswoman for Seattle Public Utilities.

      But some are concerned that they might become shelter for drug abusers, dealers and prostitutes.

      "The community will keep a watch out and make sure they don't become a haven for that kind of activity," Stoltzfus said.

      "It is hard to make it foolproof, but you do what you can. If a particular unit is having a problem, we can adjust the time on the doors, we can make it shorter and give you less time."

      So what went wrong? There's no real insight to the world of illicit drug use and sex. But on maintenance, the hind-sight article notes:

      The city paid more than it planned to take care of the toilets. Workers had to clean the stalls after trash clogged the self-cleaning mechanism. Losing the toilets will save the city some $4.5 million on the remainder of its operating contract and in cleaning costs over the next several years.

    44. Re:Just Remember... by albyrne5 · · Score: 1

      -1 flamebait? Awful moderation.

    45. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because they were located in Pioneer Square, where all the crackheads, homeless, junkies, prostitutes, would-be gangsters and scum live.

    46. Re:Just Remember... by penrodyn · · Score: 1

      Except they have similar devices in San Francisco, New York and Boston and they don't suffer the same problems. The issues are therefore not as simple as you suggest. I think one of the problems was that they placed them in districts that already had drug users and prostitutes. Now if you stuck them in nice areas you might get a different story.

    47. Re:Just Remember... by StevisF · · Score: 1

      They put them in parks where largely homeless people and drug users hang out. The original idea as stated in the article was to keep drug dealers and so on out of the bathrooms of businesses, so I'm not really sure why anyone was surprised that the people who ended up there were just who they intended.

    48. Re:Just Remember... by nsayer · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      The effects of the drug are addictive

      I don't think that word means what you think it does. Addictive implies that if you stop doing it, you experience unpleasant side effects. It does not mean simply that doing it is pleasurable.

    49. Re:Just Remember... by illumin8 · · Score: 1, Troll

      This is from the article:

      Though officials acknowledge more public restrooms are desperately needed, the city has no immediate plans to replace the toilets.

      I really don't understand why city officials feel like they need to take my tax money to pay for public toilets. If people want the convenience and luxury of a toilet, they can buy their own damn toilet, or they can go shit in the woods like a bear. Seattle is a pretty messed up place to live if the city thinks they need to spend $5 million so a few homeless people have a place to pee or use drugs.

      Seriously, when did we decide as a society that we had to provide free public toilets to everyone? This is just getting ridiculous.

      --
      "When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
    50. Re:Just Remember... by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

      but homelessness isn't likely to be solved by affordable housing. Many (most?) long term homeless people have serious addiction or mental health issues.

      Ahem. I said "addressing homelessness with affordable housing and decent health care". I take it as given that "decent health care" includes mental health issues.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    51. Re:Just Remember... by SydShamino · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There are both mental and physical side effects, depending on the addiction. For some things, like alcohol for those who have been constantly inebriated, or for opiates, not taking the drugs can be lethal. Methadone exists for a reason.

      For other addictions, though, the side effects are purely mental. Don't exercise for two days, and you start thinking you see pudge forming on your belly. Don't smoke weed for a day (if you have the 5-6 per day addition), and you start realizing how bad your life is.

      It does not mean simply that doing it is pleasurable.

      Plenty of people can become addicted to adrenaline rush through some method or another. They are usually said to be addicted to the source, not the adrenaline.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    52. Re:Just Remember... by Blkdeath · · Score: 1

      The effects of the drug are addictive

      I don't think that word means what you think it does. Addictive implies that if you stop doing it, you experience unpleasant side effects. It does not mean simply that doing it is pleasurable.

      It means people get addicted to a feeling of euphoria and heightened relaxation and when they stop using the drug the reality of reality comes crashing back and a lot of people can't handle that. They learn to function "normally" when high so when they're not high they no longer understand how to function in the world.

      --
      BD Phone Home!

      Shameless plug. Like you weren't expecting it.

    53. Re:Just Remember... by nsayer · · Score: 1

      They are usually said to be addicted to the source, not the adrenaline.

      Well, then they're not using the word "addicted" properly. You don't get "addicted" to skydiving or base jumping. To say so is to engage in hyperbole, not to use the word correctly.

    54. Re:Just Remember... by coryking · · Score: 1

      Or is the design different?

      Do they sell advertising on the side?
      Do they charge for getting in?
      Do they look more like eurotrash artwork than a bathroom?

    55. Re:Just Remember... by nester · · Score: 1

      It doesn't - but it does make ignorant "liberals" feel good about themselves by passing a law. Like many laws, it's counterproductive since people are thinking beings that can adapt their behavior. I think most politicians know this, but choose to ignore it since ignorant voters like what bills _sound_ like, and don't care what actually happens.

    56. Re:Just Remember... by linzeal · · Score: 1

      Bring back the asylums. When I went down to Arcata, Ca to visit a few months ago I saw the same mentally ill homeless woman who was down there 5 years ago with less teeth and more fear. People like her should be given a structured place to get well if she can or die in if she can't. All these half way houses and outpatient mental health clinics for schizophrenics are miserable failures.

    57. Re:Just Remember... by AuMatar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Would you prefer the homeless crapped in the street? Thats the alternative, and I'd sure as hell rather pay for a damn public toilet. Granted, this was a stupid way to provide them- a port-o-potty or paying a local business to keep their bathrooms open (and policed) would be a lot cheaper.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    58. Re:Just Remember... by cromar · · Score: 1

      Anything can be mentally addicting; some people will use anything as a security blanket. I doubt these friends of yours developed their antisocial behavior because they smoke weed. On the other hand, there are physically addictive properties of nicotine and alcohol. Also, there is no real withdrawal effect associated with THC or the other cannibinoids.

    59. Re:Just Remember... by NeuroManson · · Score: 1

      Is that what you kids are calling drug dealers these days? Huh, you learn something new everyday.

      --
      Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
    60. Re:Just Remember... by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      Weed is as addictive as alcohol. And it's sneaky too since heavy users can get an occasional ruse from it on the odd occasions that they haven't had a joint. The catch is that the drug is dissolving into the fat tissues of the body and sometimes it can get released at inconvenient moments.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    61. Re:Just Remember... by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      Which makes the drug addictive, just because it's by proxy doesn't matter.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    62. Re:Just Remember... by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      Don't confuse them with the suicide booths then.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    63. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was able to give up weed twice. After the first time I got back into it because I was dating a smokin' hot bitch who smoked and drank all the time. I didn't do either at all, but I smoked some joints and had some beers with her. Now I've given it up for good. However, this second time I had a really good reason to do so - I've got high blood pressure, and weed of course, raises your blood pressure. Nothing like being crouched over on the floor clutching your chest because your heart is beating faster than at anytime you have ever heard it beat, including after running a mile etc. Even if I got way healthy again I would never smoke it, the appeal is gone, even though my current gf smokes it too.

    64. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Define "safe".

      The United States Government is an epic failure because it's rotten from the inside and run by self serving morons.

      -Viz

      How is this different than other country's governments?

    65. Re:Just Remember... by Z00L00K · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Well - Hitler and Stalin were effective to some degree, but the cost wasn't acceptable. And by that I mean the cost in lives consumed.

      And it didn't end well for Hitler. And Stalin was paranoid, so I suspect that he actually had his penalty too, but not officially.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    66. Re:Just Remember... by immcintosh · · Score: 1

      They're using it just fine. From the medical standpoint, there is a very common distinction drawn between physical and psychological dependency. Sometimes they go together, sometimes they don't. There's a big difference in the way the two work though, and you're totally wrong that you don't get "addicted" to skydiving or base jumping. Any behavior that can be psychologically rewarding (basically anything that makes your brain give you a hit of dopamine) can be addictive. Those things are examples of things that can develop into psychological dependencies, but not physical/biological ones.

      Look it up if you don't believe me, but that's how addiction is addressed from a scientific standpoint.

    67. Re:Just Remember... by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      Just wait until a relative of the mayor gets stuck in the traffic on the way to the hospital and dies.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    68. Re:Just Remember... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      He didn't say it wasn't addictive, he said it wasn't highly addictive. For almost everyone, quitting is easier the stopping smoking.

      "...that is an addiction. "
      No, it's a habit. It could be an addiction, but there are other factors.

      Why are you equating 'harmful' with 'addiction'? If you were addicted to gambling, but always won you would still be addicted.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    69. Re:Just Remember... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Alcohol I'm not certain about. I've drank enough to know that it doesn't produce any kind of physical addiction the way that drugs like heroin do.

      No, you haven't drank enough. (Hint: don't go there). Alcohol can be very addicting physically. Look up Delirium Tremens if you're bored....

      I think alcoholism is a mental/functional disease, not a physical/chemical disease, but I obviously can't speak with any kind of authority.

      Well, since the brain is a physical sort of thing, you end up splitting hairs in this kind of debate. Most addictions have a "physical" aspect (e.g. withdrawl symptoms) and a "mental" aspect (e.g. cravings - which may just be a different way of saying the same thing at a different level of brain detail).

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    70. Re:Just Remember... by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      But maybe you may charge for light/heat/cooling/privacy?

      Door won't close until $1 is inserted.

      But the toilet will work, so anybody in need may use it. But not closing the door may constitute indecent exposure.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    71. Re:Just Remember... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Well, there mostly to stop homeless people from peeing in door ways.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    72. Re:Just Remember... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Yeah, sure. You blame the prostitutes? I blame society.

      For what ?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    73. Re:Just Remember... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      So how do we get the homeless to use them if there is a fee? That's the problem there trying to stop, homeless people peeing on the street.
      These work in other countries that have 'socialized' medicine because people that need help get it. As opposed to here in the US where people are treated like sub humans and left to fend for themselves in the street.

      It wasn't always this way, but Reagan killed the medical program to help people; which immediately put thousands of people on the street with no way to get out of the street.
      As any sane person would expect, the problem has been getting worse ever since.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    74. Re:Just Remember... by Blkdeath · · Score: 1

      A) "Heh". You must be from the US, where smoking the green stuff at all is automatically equivalent to "drug abuse".

      I must be lost, and I'm no American nor am I an American apologist but I can't find anywhere in AC's post where they in any way inferred drug abuse or any harm. They merely indicated that nbert's friend is slow at rolling his joints which, atleast to me, implies some experience on the subject.

      --
      BD Phone Home!

      Shameless plug. Like you weren't expecting it.

    75. Re:Just Remember... by TheLostSamurai · · Score: 1

      Agreed. The point I was making was that it is not addictive in the same way as a drug such as heroin is. Unlike an opiate, not all people will be affected because the addiction is not physical, it is psychological. I have known many people that have been addicted to marijuana. However, the weed was just a place holder. Had they not had access to weed, they would have found some other substance to take it's place in order to avoid reality, possibly something much more physically addictive and harmful.

      --
      I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
    76. Re:Just Remember... by squizzar · · Score: 1

      Exercise releases endorphins - opiates that are more powerful than morphine, which is what people get addicted to. My guess would be that you may become psychologically addicted to the buzz of exercising, but you can also become physically addicted to the endorphins that exercise releases. IANAD but I'd imagine the difference is that psychological addiction leads to a craving whereas physical addiction will have actual withdrawal symptoms.

      Heroin and other opiates are so effective because they operate on the same pathways as endorphins. They also start to replace them: your body produces less endorphins because of the heroin, hence why heroin withdrawal is painful.

    77. Re:Just Remember... by COMON$ · · Score: 1
      This is true, Just had a conversation yesterday with a hospital pharmacist who informed me that they keep a stash of hard alcohol for alcoholics who come in for treatment.

      However, the hangover is due mostly due to dehydration. When alcohol leaves your brain you are not hydrated enough to replace the fluid you need to function as alcohol suppresses your anti-diahretic hormone which will keep you from hydrating. Hair of the dog will temporarily fix the issue by replacing the void beyond your blood brain barrier, but the best thing by far to do for yourself is to drink some pediasure the night before and the morning after.

      However I would like to know what imbalances alcohol creates when abused to cause the physical dependence on this drug.

      --
      CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
    78. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you thought that maybe it is the person and not the drug? I know PhD physicists who use it as well as productive members of society like CPAs, computer programmers, lawyers, doctors, teachers, writers, musicians. The drug does not tend to keep them from doing things like working, bathing, going to work[ . . . ]sic. Perhaps all of these people in your mind are addicts, just as many people are addicted to caffeine and sugar. But if this addiction does not negatively affect them, then is it a bad thing. I don't think they are addicts, as I have seen many of them take long periods of time where they refrained from use. And I think that the people in your example have problems that they are dealing with rather poorly, and they are using weed to facilitate some kind of escape from this problem. So, yes, in its absence they would most likely turn to something else that is much more harmful (like sugar, alcohol, crystal meth, etc . . . ).

    79. Re:Just Remember... by Idaho · · Score: 1

      Weed is not physically addictive; breaking the habit (psychologically) is a different matter though. As far as I know, there are no (physical) withdrawal symptoms when you stop smoking weed (I'm not speaking from experience, by the way). Much unlike tobacco or alcohol, which are both highly addictive *and* can cause severe withdrawal symptoms.

      So yes, I do drink alcohol, mostly during the weekend, and also smoke a cigar every once in a while. Fine with me, and neither do I care when people smoke weed, say, once or twice a month. If that is "drug abuse", then a lot of people are into some serious trouble ;)

      (Not to mention caffeine, by the way!)

      --
      Every expression is true, for a given value of 'true'
    80. Re:Just Remember... by spasm · · Score: 1

      Part of the whole point of having them in the first place was because the homeless need to shit too, and years of 'urban renewal' projects had removed all previous public toilets from the downtown area, which meant that there was a lot of human shit on the sidewalks. Charging 50c works fine when you're providing bathrooms for tourists; when it's for the homeless you just end up with people shitting right by the door of the facility as a 'vote with your bum' protest.

    81. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where I live prostitution is legal but pimping is not. There is very little street prostitution. It's almost all in clubs and bars with readily available hotels. And the women actually get to keep all the money.

    82. Re:Just Remember... by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1

      Actually, you can get addicted to "thrill" sports, such as skydiving, base jumping, or anything else that causes your body to release massive amounts of adrenaline into your system.

    83. Re:Just Remember... by PeeAitchPee · · Score: 1

      So why not outfit them with pay-per-use locks and give the handicapped a special access keycard? Sounds like it would have cut down on a lot of the problems that happened in this case.

    84. Re:Just Remember... by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      Its not physiologically addictive like heroin or cocaine. It still can be psycologically addictive, jsut like any other human experience. Food can be eaten in moderation or it can be a life destroying addiction. Its the person, not the substance.

      --
      Good-bye
    85. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not supposed to make sense. It's the law.

    86. Re:Just Remember... by mstahl · · Score: 1

      I have seen a bunch of people (more then 30) where smoking weed was more important then everything else

      Who? I lived in northern California (marijuana central) for five years and I've never even heard of such a thing. All the scientific evidence points to marijuana to be psychologically addictive (as in the behaviour itself is addictive, not necessarily the actual chemical), so anyone who can claim to be addicted to marijuana has to be susceptible to that type of addiction. 99.9% of people can stop any time they need to and be relatively clear of any withdrawal-related pissiness in a couple of weeks.

      All those people were weak and could have gotten addicted to anything?

      Yes. They were.

    87. Re:Just Remember... by rgviza · · Score: 1

      Flamebait?

      The truth shall set you free:
      "The United States leads the industrialized world in incarceration. In fact, the U.S. rate of incarceration (762 per 100,000) is five to eight times that of other highly developed countries, according to The Sentencing Project, a criminal justice think tank. "

      http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=5009270

      We have mandatory minimum sentences of 5 years or more for crimes that other countries consider misdemeanors.

      I reiterate, the US Government, as it stands today, is an epic failure because it's run by self serving morons who only care about how much they'll get paid by the lobbyists pass whatever will help the big corporation that's paying both of them.

      More people die in our cities in one year, to criminals, than U.S. active duty Soldiers in 4 years of combat in Iraq.

      Everyone gets all pissed off about soldiers dying in Iraq. There's more people dying right in your back yard. The soldiers are tragic, I agree, and I have great respect for them, but this country is going to shit. The sooner you take off the blinders the better off you'll be.

      I was born and raised here. This country's government, the jackass, and the elephant, is steering the country I love, into ruin.

      I stand by my "flamebait" because it's true. If you want to see the facts behind my assertions, I'll happily dig them up for you and post more links. Just tell me what you want.

      -Viz

      --
      Don't kid yourself. It's the size of the regexp AND how you use it that counts.
    88. Re:Just Remember... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 0, Troll

      You arrest the homeless person caught in the act of urinating / defecating in public. If a NON - HOMELESS person did it, we'd be hauled off to the clink.

      The Homeless are untouchable and holy to the Liberal Elite. "they can't help it" is a tired old excuse, and part of a sick co-dependency that should be treated by mental health professionals.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    89. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The difference between Europe and Seattle is that Seattle prohibits charging for use of public toilets and prohibits advertising as a revenue source.

    90. Re:Just Remember... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      No no no no.

      If people urinate and defecate in public places, you arrest them for health hazards. The homeless will not just take a crap wherever and whenever they feel like it, they will learn not to do it in public.

      As for drugs and prostitution, those too are "Health Hazards" and should be treated as such, and not as Moral issues (which they are as well).

      And I don't care about people's "deeper problems". Not unless they care about their own "deeper problems" themselves. If they don't care about their own problems, why should I????

      I can't fix their problems for them, and neither can the government. It is called SELF RESPONSIBILITY, and should be the basis for all laws. It should be RARE, especially in this country (US) that someone isn't capable of taking care of themselfs to the point that society comes in to rescue them.

      I'm kinda sick of all the excuse makers giving people the easy way out, and rescuing people who don't want to be helped, but just want a handout.

      I've seen plenty of people capable of working who DON'T or WON'T, because of some reason or another. I have little or no sympathy for people who don't want to work hard to get out of their situation.

       

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    91. Re:Just Remember... by djdavetrouble · · Score: 1

      Pay toilets were popular in the U.S. in the 1970s. They ended up being banned in many cities

      Thank god, I was getting tired of "just crawling under". Thanks mom.

      --
      music lover since 1969
    92. Re:Just Remember... by Jethro · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The drug itself is not addictive. The effects of the drug are addictive.

      Sir, I hate to say this... in fact, I have never said this before because it IS such a cliche, but please believve me when I say, with absolute conviction, that that is the absolute dumbest thing I have ever heard anyone say in my entire life.

      --


      In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is kinky.
    93. Re:Just Remember... by Jethro · · Score: 1

      What he said.

      --


      In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is kinky.
    94. Re:Just Remember... by omnipresentbob · · Score: 1

      Except that they did need a janitor, because the self-cleaning mechanism got clogged. The joys of technology...

    95. Re:Just Remember... by Digital+End · · Score: 1
      I don't think that word means what you think it does either.

      adÂdicÂtive
      adj.
      1. Causing or tending to cause addiction: an addictive substance.
      2. Characterized by or susceptible to addiction

      adÂdicÂtion
      n.
      1.
      a. Compulsive physiological and psychological need for a habit-forming substance: a drug used in the treatment of heroin addiction.
      b. An instance of this: a person with multiple chemical addictions.
      2.
      a. The condition of being habitually or compulsively occupied with or or involved in something.
      b. An instance of this

      Addiction doesn't literally mean 'if you stop it's unpleasant'. It means you want to keep doing it regardless of if it's good for you or not.

      --
      Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master.
    96. Re:Just Remember... by Joe+the+Lesser · · Score: 1

      In fact forget the coke.

      And the bathrooms.

      --
      "I only speak the truth"
      Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
    97. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea, whats wrong with a little chrome polishing anyway?

    98. Re:Just Remember... by PalmKiller · · Score: 2, Funny

      What did he just say?

    99. Re:Just Remember... by Firethorn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It is pretty difficult to get physically addicted to alcohol (I should know), but it is most definately possible.

      I believe this has a lot to do with genetics. Native American tribes have some extremely high alcoholism, while Europeans generally don't, at least without extreme effort.

      My theory is that areas that developed alcoholic beverages created evolutionary pressure for people who could handle them. Thus, like Europeans being more resistant to diseases like smallpox, they're also more resistant to alcoholism. As are Asians, and probably Indians.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    100. Re:Just Remember... by swb · · Score: 1

      So just give them a shitload of Lexapro or Prozac or whatever the physician-approved don't care medicine is this week.

    101. Re:Just Remember... by Firethorn · · Score: 3, Informative

      that that is the absolute dumbest thing I have ever heard anyone say in my entire life.

      You must not get out much then.

      Simply speaking, there's two types of addiction. Physiological and Psychological. Physiological is where actual changes to body chemistry occur, and bad things can happen when you withdraw. A severe alcohol addict can experience delirium tremens. Heroin can have some very bad side effects from withdrawal.

      Then you have Psychological addictions. These are the people who get addicted to gambling, world of warcraft, the internet, etc... Not to say that they don't crave their addiction, but it doesn't have the body factor that Physiological does.

      On the topic of the toilets - well, I'd consider them an experiment that didn't work out as well as they hoped.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    102. Re:Just Remember... by TheLostSamurai · · Score: 3, Informative

      Have you ever smoked marijuana? If so, were you immediately hooked? Have you ever known anyone that has smoked marijuana recreationaly (meaning every once in a while) for several years and then needed it so bad they started sucking cock for it? I doubt it. The truth is that if I was forced to smoke weed 5 times a day for the next month, I could then stop and never smoke it again. You know why? Because the drug is not addictive and I don't happen to like the "high" that weed gives me. In fact, I would look forward to the day I was allowed to stop.

      Frankly, your complete lack of understanding of the difference between physical and psychological addiction is astounding. Also, it is ignorance like yours which keeps a drug that is no more (maybe less) harmful than alcohol, and possibly beneficial to a great many people, illegal.

      --
      I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
    103. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "If weed is not addictive, why do so many people have to smoke it (not those or medical reason, regular health people). They crave it, they need it. "

      compare:

      If video games are not addictive, why do so many people have to play them (not those or medical reason, regular health people). They crave it, they need it.

      If food is not addictive, why do so many people have to eat (not those or medical reason, regular health people). They crave it, they need it.

      If oxygen is not addictive, why do so many people have to inhale it (not those or medical reason, regular health people). They crave it, they need it.

      If sex is not addictive, why do so many people have to have it (not those or medical reason, regular health people). They crave it, they need it.

      If nicotine is not addictive, why do so many people have to smoke it (not those or medical reason, regular health people). They crave it, they need it.

      You can't just make a sweeping generalization like that. It's illogical and makes you sound like a moron. Go look up the real definition of addiction. People struggle with heroine, nicotine, alcohol, gambling, etc. People are pleasure seekers, and anything enjoyable is something that people might do to excess. Pot is just as addictive as any other pleasurable activity, sure, but I've never seen any real studies on the changes that show it to be more addictive than eating or sleeping (compared to say, cocaine, which has a direct effect on the mesolimbic reward pathway and changes the regulation of cellular signaling WRT dopamine in the human brain). Nicotine also causes brain chemistry changes, and ditto for caffeine. I've experienced caffeine withdrawl (more than once, too -- it's never fun).

      If you're going to make such a statement, you need to differentiate between something that is addictive because of the sensations (think of nymphomaniacs, people who play WoW every day, or compulsive gamblers) vs. drugs which actually cause chemical dependence.

    104. Re:Just Remember... by Jethro · · Score: 1

      I never have, and never will, smoke anything.

      But are you saying people can be addicted to the 'effects' of marijuana without smoking it? ...didn't think so.

      --


      In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is kinky.
    105. Re:Just Remember... by psydeshow · · Score: 1

      What, do you pee in your car or something?

      I think it's worth a few million of my city's tax dollars every year to give tourists, shoppers, and other visitors (and even homeless folks) a place to relieve themselves.

      It's called civilization.

    106. Re:Just Remember... by ralewi1 · · Score: 1

      ... the revolting parents...

      You said it! They stink on ice!

    107. Re:Just Remember... by Jethro · · Score: 1

      Simply speaking, there's two types of addiction. Physiological and Psychological.

      And you can get the psychological effects without physically using drugs, right? Oh wait, no you can't.

      --


      In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is kinky.
    108. Re:Just Remember... by ari+wins · · Score: 1

      Technically speaking, yes, you can. Either through ingestion of marijuana, or the use a vaporizer, neither of which involve the actual "smoking" of marijuana. Trivialities, I know, but I just had to jump on the bandwagon.

      Also consider the fact that love can be a psychological addiction, as one grows attached to the way that they feel when "with" someone.

      --
      Don't worry if you're a kleptomaniac, you can always take something for it.
    109. Re:Just Remember... by Jethro · · Score: 1

      That's some fine nitpicking, my friend.

      --


      In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is kinky.
    110. Re:Just Remember... by TheLostSamurai · · Score: 2, Funny

      I never have, and never will, smoke anything.

      But are you saying people can be addicted to the 'effects' of marijuana without smoking it? ...didn't think so.

      Then your vast knowledge and life experience on the topic should definitely qualify you as an expert.

      Psychological addiction doesn't require any specific drug. Someone that gets addicted to marijuana would be just as likely to get addicted to another substance or activity, illicit or otherwise.

      Much like how you are obviously addicted to purveying your ignorance.

      --
      I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
    111. Re:Just Remember... by TheLostSamurai · · Score: 1

      Alas, that is unfortunately the view of most of the world. It's perfectly fine for a doctor to prescribe severely addictive and mind altering drugs than may or may not treat a patients problem, but it is very taboo to prescribe a drug that has been studied and in use for centuries and is in fact well understood.

      BTW, I did assume you were being sarcastic.

      --
      I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
    112. Re:Just Remember... by darthdavid · · Score: 1

      You sir are fucking stupid. The main active ingredient in marijuana is Delta 9 Tetrahydrocannabinol, ofter referred to as THC. While THC is fat soluble it is broken down upon use and any effective dose of psychoactive chemicals is gone within several hours (the exact amount of time depending on the method of ingestion, how much is used and the person using it).

      How then, you ask, do drug tests detect marijuana use for up to a month after use (more with hair)? Simple, when a person's body is exposed to THC the THC is broken down in the process of effecting the person (getting them high). This happens with just about any chemical and the breakdown products from this sort of thing are called metabolites. THC Metabolites share several properties with THC and in this case the important one is fat solubility which causes them to get trapped in the body fat and released slowly. They are not psychoactive and are much more stable than the THC from which they are derived. These are what gets tested for in a drug test.

      A side note, I don't know about marijuana tests in particular but I do know that a lot of other tests tend to return an absurd number of false positives because the metabolites they test for can be generated from innocent sources that have little to do with the drug they claim to detect. For instance, Dextromethorpan a perfectly legal drug used as a cough supressant (and recreationally as a derailant at high doses) returns a false positive for PCP (even at recomended doses) and poppy seeds return a false positive for opiate use.

      Now go back to sucking the cock of whatever fascist nanny-state politician you adore and don't let the door hit you on your way out!

    113. Re:Just Remember... by m167a1 · · Score: 0

      The stupid trolls were blocking the doors open. It took about two weeks before they were unusable. Seattle city govt is particularly stupid even for Libtards, can't do ANYTHING without a comitee and primal screams.

      --
      You get more with a .45 and a kind word than you do with just a kind word
    114. Re:Just Remember... by bogjobber · · Score: 1

      ...which is why he said that the homelessness problem should be solved with affordable housing *and* decent health care. At least finish reading the sentence before your respond.

    115. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The flamebait part is: "The United States Government is an epic failure because it's rotten from the inside and run by self serving morons."

      If it had just been the other stuff in the post it wouldn't be flamebait.

    116. Re:Just Remember... by Jethro · · Score: 1

      Then your vast knowledge and life experience on the topic should definitely qualify you as an expert.

      I have to take drugs to know their effect?

      Psychological addiction doesn't require any specific drug.

      Yes, but we were talking about marijuana. If you want to broaden the spectrum, that's fine - are you saying you can get psychologically addicted to the effect of anything without physically experiencing it? Didn't think so.

      Much like how you are obviously addicted to purveying your ignorance.

      Ah, lashing out. Why are you being so defensive, I wonder*

      --
      * I don't really.

      --


      In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is kinky.
    117. Re:Just Remember... by joggle · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The Homeless are untouchable and holy to the Liberal Elite. "they can't help it" is a tired old excuse, and part of a sick co-dependency that should be treated by mental health professionals.

      Are you trying to be funny? It costs a lot of money to keep homeless people locked up behind bars, a heck of a lot more money than just making a public shelter for them. The great majority of homeless people are suffering from moderate to severe mental problems that are going untreated. When they do get locked up the jail is becoming the de-facto mental hospital for them, something that was not intended but is the reality here in the US.

    118. Re:Just Remember... by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      And you can get the psychological effects without physically using drugs, right? Oh wait, no you can't.

      The critical factor here is that not all drugs have psychological addiction properties, and even among drugs that do, the effects vary. This is important when you go to put somebody in a treatment program, because one can require a slow drawdown process where the individual is weaned off the drug, or you provide a less addictive substitute such as Methadone in the case of Heroin. The other you can theoretically go cold turkey with no more problem.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    119. Re:Just Remember... by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If people urinate and defecate in public places, you arrest them for health hazards.

      You think jails are cheaper than public restrooms? Seriously?

      The homeless will not just take a crap wherever and whenever they feel like it, they will learn not to do it in public.

      Just where are they going to go to perform basic bodily functions if there are no public restrooms?

      And I don't care about people's "deeper problems". Not unless they care about their own "deeper problems" themselves. If they don't care about their own problems, why should I????

      Because people don't keep their problems to themselves. Poverty and homelessness lead to crime and disease, which affect us all.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    120. Re:Just Remember... by duckInferno · · Score: 1, Funny

      This is why English Public Schools designed to scrub up young gentlemen and closet young ladies have installed cameras in the bogs http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7567193.stm (17th August 2008) so they can't get a sneaky fag in without getting buggered or damage the Johnny machine since the Headmaster stopped their Friday-night rubber allowance http://glyndaviesam.blogspot.com/2007/12/have-good-weekend-children.html.

      Meanwhile, the revolting parents are demanding that "free condom Friday" be re-instated by the school ...

      Once again, Blighty is ahead of the game in urban anti-terror educational re-adjustment bodily function pacification!

      In France, zey just pis in ze bushes.

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    121. Re:Just Remember... by Stickerboy · · Score: 1

      >However I would like to know what imbalances alcohol creates when abused to cause the physical dependence on this drug.

      Alcohol is GABA-ergic, which means it has a general depressive effect on neurotransmitter function. Your body rebounds after alcohol use is stopped and neurotransmitter function goes the other way, hence the symptoms that a "dry drunk" presents with. In order to feel "normal", the alcoholic must then take something to restore the balance, whether it be another slug of whiskey or a Librium or Ativan.

      --
      Light a fire for a man and he'll be warm for a day. Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
    122. Re:Just Remember... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Two points.

      Point 1: Yes it does. It cost a lot of money to have sick people in the Hospital, a lot more money than keeping them locked up. I wouldn't presume to ignore one because it is expensive at the result of the other.

      Additionally, incarceration is a disincentive (or should be) to such behavior. Our current system isn't much of a disincentive because there is no "requirement" to do anything useful while in custody. Time to have the bums clean up the gutters and alleys under guard, rather than living in them.

      Point 2: Untreated Mental Illness isn't an excuse to let them loose on the streets. If they have mental issues, they should be put into a place where they can be productive, and get the care they need, rather than ignoring them in the gutters and alleys. But thanks to Liberal Do-Gooders, we can't force people to take care of themselves. However it is okay to force the rest of us to actually have to pay for it. Remember, it was the liberals that closed the mental hospitals down to everyone but the "dangerous".

      People with moderate to severe mental problems shouldn't be wondering the streets. But we're not allowed to lock them up. Now, figure that one out.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    123. Re:Just Remember... by tkw954 · · Score: 1

      I've heard that too. In the crowded and dirty middle ages in Europe, beer was often the safest drinking water available. If you couldn't handle the alcohol, you probably died of disease. Not so in the sparsely populated Americas. Asia must have come up with a different solution to supply clean drinking water.

    124. Re:Just Remember... by nbert · · Score: 1

      B) True ;) Though if it took him 15+ minutes then surely he was not very practiced, so see (A) w.r.t. using the stuff in moderation. That's not abuse ;)

      Exactly what happened to this friend - he smoked a little when he was quite young and turned away from it. Plus it also proves (A) wrong, because it happened one time in this public toilet and after that even the real stoners among my friends decided to stay away from such public toilets*. As a side effect it discouraged any use of this thing, because nobody wants to end up in a public place pants-down and with toilet paper in the hand.

      AC saw a supposedly funny contradiction which in itself proves the point.

      *It's funny enough that someone rolled a joint on a public toilet instead of doing so at home or in some less crowded place. But like I said he was young...

    125. Re:Just Remember... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Unmonitored public bathrooms are a health and saftey hazard. I wouldn't want to go into one. However, we took low risk jail inmates and made them clean them and take ownership of them in some way, I'm sure that we could change both the prisoner's outlook, and the condition of the bathrooms. Seriously, we don't need expensive solutions. I'm sure some liberal constituency group (Public Empolyee Unions) would complain about taking away a job or some such thing.

      As for where do they go ... well there's the rub. We can't lock them up because they are some holy untouchable class (Homeless oooh ahhh) but then again, we get blamed because they are on the streets because they can't or won't hold a job, or otherwise can't live in civilized society. And I'm not talking about the poor kids stuck with parents in the above class either. I'm talking adults here. Please don't blame me when they can't fit into civil society.

      Poverty and Homelessness DO NOT lead to crime. I know plenty of people who didn't commit crimes when they were "poor". And I didn't commit crimes when I was "homeless" and poor. That is a cop out. If you don't expect the poor to behave, then that is what you'll get, poor and misbehaving people. And Most disease is preventable with nutrition and sanitation. One can be a criminal and be sanitary and eat properly, and quite healthy.

      No, what really affects us all, is people making bad decision and others making excuses for those poor decisions, enabling them like a co-dependent to an alcoholic. "he can't help it" is a lie 99% of the time.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    126. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You sir are a Heartless libertarian cocksucker.

      Prople like you are fucking up the whole world.

      YOu are full of shit

    127. Re:Just Remember... by russotto · · Score: 1

      Alcohol I'm not certain about. I've drank enough to know that it doesn't produce any kind of physical addiction the way that drugs like heroin do. I think alcoholism is a mental/functional disease, not a physical/chemical disease, but I obviously can't speak with any kind of authority.

      Alcohol most definitely produces physical addiction in some drinkers; they become tolerant to it (that is, they need an increased dose to get the same effect) and they experience withdrawal symptoms. But most drinkers aren't physically addicted to it, by those criteria.

    128. Re:Just Remember... by db32 · · Score: 1

      Wow...so what you are saying is that if the government had mass executions of whoever they didn't like at the time that people would be more more behaved and less likely to do anything that could possibly garner the attention of the government? You mean that instead of having mass graves we have huge prison populations. Yes...in fact I do think that shows that we are a pretty free nation. A less free nation would have no problems with more extreme measures as crime deterents.

      I suspect Nazi Germany didn't have many terrorist/crime type problems because the SS had no problem forcing girls to kneel on frozen lakes until they were stuck and left them there to die, or murdering people and taking their gold teeth for money. When you have that kind of government sanctioned brutality you don't generally have a lot of people who step out of line. You are right...we should certainly fix that. Let's start by executing anyone that whines about the US without either offering a REAL solution to the problem mentioned or taking the problem into real perspective. Should clear up both political parties pretty quick. Just imagine...a democratic party with people who actually do something other than whine and a republican party that isn't so obsessed with things like "the homosexual agenda".

      Also...anyone who uses a offhanded joke to springboard into political diatribe should be executed. And I even agree with you that our government is run by self serving morons! As I have mentioned, it is the self serving folks that aren't morons that you have to worry about.

      --
      The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
    129. Re:Just Remember... by mrbrown1602 · · Score: 1

      Let's see: They estimated maintenance costs of $600,000 a year. I don't know much about wages in the US, but it's fair to assume that 5 janitors would have done the job at a lower price

      Most janitors are paid minimum wage or slightly above minimum wage, so lets just say $7/hr for all intents and purposes. Most janitors are not full-time employees, because then their employer would have to give them benefits, so lets just say they work 30 hours a week in a possible 40 hour work week.

      $7*30= 210*52=10,920 *5 = $54,600.

      Significantly cheaper.

    130. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I tried one of these toilets once, as I was roaming the Seattle Waterfront one day, and there was a nice, brown, smelly piece of human fecal matter on the floor, along with some soggy toilet paper mashed by many feet. Only the toilet was designed to be automatically cleaned after each use, and was the only thing that WAS clean. There was a definite need for a janitor in that unit.

      I don't care if the toilet can speak five languages, I just want the area I'll be expelling and walking in to be clean enough so that it doesn't cause a health hazard.

    131. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As for where do they go ... well there's the rub. We can't lock them up because they are some holy untouchable class (Homeless oooh ahhh) but then again, we get blamed because they are on the streets because they can't or won't hold a job, or otherwise can't live in civilized society. And I'm not talking about the poor kids stuck with parents in the above class either. I'm talking adults here. Please don't blame me when they can't fit into civil society.

      Actually, most of the people who are homeless are homeless because they are nonfunctional in society in some way. We're generally talking mental problems. Yes, we used to be able to "lock them up," but we don't now not because they are some "holy untouchable class" (as you so eloquently put it) but because that costs money, and we aren't willing to spend money to incarcerate adults who are nonviolent but nonfunctional. If there is not someone to take care of you, pay your bills, make sure you take your medicines, etc., you end up on the street.

      How do I know this? I work in a public library. The public library I used to work in has multiple regular homeless people who visited daily, particularly since it was in Western NY state and one of the few places open during the day that had heat and public restrooms. (The local shelters will not shelter them during the daytime, only overnight.) While most of our regular homeless may have been confused and rather odorous, they didn't really bother anyone except for occasional issues if they tried to do things like wash their socks out in the public restrooms. Mostly they would come in, mumble, wander around for a bit, read something, wander away for a while, repeat. However, a few were stark ravers who would come in screaming about seeing Jesus again and start trying to faith heal the disabled in the library or hold bizarre conversations with staff members and patrons. Or get drunk and pass out in the bathrooms. Or run into a staff-only area, take off all their clothing, and refuse to put it back on. The staff had to handle them when we could, and when they were too wild, we called the police, who would come and take them to the local mental health ward, where they would be kept a few days, evaluated, told to take their meds, and released back onto the streets.

      It is very frustrating to keep calling the police for the same person over and over and to keep having them taken away and then released again because the bar is simply set too low now for public care for the mentally ill. Even after one man began slapping people's foreheads and knocking them down while trying to "get the devil out of them," he could not be held.

      These are generally not people who are too lazy to hold a job. These are people who have something wrong with them and cannot take care of themselves but have no one to take care of them.

    132. Re:Just Remember... by discHead · · Score: 1

      I thought it was the conservatives that treated the homeless like untouchables?

    133. Re:Just Remember... by Kagenin · · Score: 1

      Double-check your modern history. It was the Reagan administration that decided to slash mental health funding to ridiculously pathetic levels some 20 years ago, leaving us with an over-abundance of mentally-unstable indigents.

      --
      "All warfare is based on deception."
      Sun Tzu, "The Art of War"
    134. Re:Just Remember... by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Asia must have come up with a different solution to supply clean drinking water.

      They might of, eventually, but they have their share of alcoholic beverages as well... Rice wines and such.

      I think most societies had some form of alcohol - The Egyptians even had beer.

      The only ones that I think didn't were the native americans and australian aborigines. Africans outside of Egypt, maybe.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    135. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The insight here was that they were self-cleaning so no need for a janitor.

      And yet, there goes $5M down the toilet.

    136. Re:Just Remember... by RealGrouchy · · Score: 1

      Heh, reading those marketing features gives me an idea: put a red toilet and a blue toilet in each one and call it a "high-tech voting machine".

      - RG>

      --
      Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
    137. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remember, it was the liberals that closed the mental hospitals down to everyone but the "dangerous".

      Ronald Reagan was a liberal when he was the governor f California? I'm headin' for the dictionary.

      The mental hospitals were emptied out to "send the inmates home for community-based care", which, incidentally, was never funded.

    138. Re:Just Remember... by jheath314 · · Score: 1

      Do you use "liberal" as a sort of knee-jerk reaction, short-hand for "beaucratic", "wasteful", "inefficient", or is there something more substantial to it? I ask because the old platitudes are wearing awfully thin these days: while Clinton oversaw an era of balanced budgets, Bush has presided over an explosion of the deficit. The Republican congress was responsible for an unprecedented avalanche of earmarks, which is only now ceing curtailed (by the Democratic majority).

      As an economic conservative, I am rooting for the Democrats in this election.

      --
      Procrastination Man strikes again!
    139. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck...Godwin's Law already?

      Do you really still subscribe to that Godwin's "Law" shit? Please have someone change your diaper.

    140. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think that word means what you think it does either.

              adÂdicÂtive
              adj.
              1. Causing or tending to cause addiction: an addictive substance.
              2. Characterized by or susceptible to addiction

      You know why circular definitions are so easy?

      Because they don't mean shit.

    141. Re:Just Remember... by Idaho · · Score: 1

      "The drug itself is not addictive. The effects of the drug are addictive."

      Sir, I hate to say this... in fact, I have never said this before because it IS such a cliche, but please believve me when I say, with absolute conviction, that that is the absolute dumbest thing I have ever heard anyone say in my entire life.

      Though luck then, because what he's saying is true. Let me clarify. Some drugs are physically addictive (like alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, heroin etc.). So in those cases, the drug itself *is* addictive.

      This is not the case with weed, which is only addictive in the sense of habit-forming (psychologically). When you're in the habit of not doing anything useful with your life and smoking a lot of weed every day, then yes, it can be hard to break this habit. But even then, once you decide to stop, there are no or almost no withdrawal symptoms. In those cases where there are, it's typically from nicotine withdrawal (so same effects as when you quit smoking), because most people mix weed & tobacco.

      So in that case, it is indeed the effect of the drug that is addictive, and not the drug itself. And this is not the case for every drug, so the statement is quite meaningful really.

      --
      Every expression is true, for a given value of 'true'
    142. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Asia must have come up with a different solution to supply clean drinking water.

      Yep, tea. They boiled the water, which cleared out the animalcules. The Irish who worked on the eastern part of the transcontinental railroad, despite any alcoholic intake they may have been allowed, died (from illnesses) far more frequently than their Chinese counterparts at the western end. Mainly due to purifying water by boiling.

      Death from rock-blasting or working in cold mountainous regions is a different story.

    143. Re:Just Remember... by haltenfrauden27 · · Score: 1

      They have the same exact issue here in San Francisco - drug use and prostitution. It's a barely hidden secret, but they don't bother to remove them. I always feel bad for the poor tourist who uses one!

    144. Re:Just Remember... by LackThereof · · Score: 1

      I don't know much about wages in the US, but it's fair to assume that 5 janitors would have done the job at a lower price.

      I work in the service industry in Seattle. Last year I made $14,000 before tax. You could probably hire at least 30 full time janitors for $600,000 a year.

      --
      Legalize recreational marijuana. Seriously.
    145. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but what if you just dont have 50 cents on you and really need to go...

    146. Re:Just Remember... by loraksus · · Score: 1

      Pretty sure that's how San Francisco's work. 20 minutes IIRC - Clock starts when door is unlocked, several warnings before you get soaked.

      --
      1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcfv gbhnjmk,l.;/
    147. Re:Just Remember... by something_wicked_thi · · Score: 1

      English public schools are now washing the young boys at school while shoving the girls into closets so they can't sneak out and chop down firewood and get covered in bugs. Also, apparently, there's something about terrorism and blight, so I think that means that we should raise the terrorism threat alert level to red.

    148. Re:Just Remember... by swb · · Score: 1

      Isn't it just amazing the number of people that are on 2-3 different anti-depressants at the same time who still have the gall to complain about other people's drug habits?

    149. Re:Just Remember... by Jethro · · Score: 1

      Maybe, but you can't really get addicted to the psychological effects of marijuana without actually using marijuana.

      --


      In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is kinky.
    150. Re:Just Remember... by qwerty+shrdlu · · Score: 1

      The homless shelter on Rosemary street has been there since the 1980's.

    151. Re:Just Remember... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      You should be a politician. The way you make mockery of law is just artful.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    152. Re:Just Remember... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Seriously, when did we decide as a society that we had to provide free public toilets to everyone?

      When someone realized that piles of crap on the streets act as incubators for epidemics, I'd imagine. Then again, ancient Romans had public toilets too without having any idea about the germ theory, so maybe it has more to do with smell ?

      This is just getting ridiculous.

      Yes, it is. The problem is: are you an actual libertarian, or are you a troll parodying one ? It's hard to tell, with the movement being as ridiculous as it is...

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    153. Re:Just Remember... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Funny how you are so full of heart, that you had to resort to insults. Talk about hypocrisy.

      The people F'ng the world are all the do-gooders that have more heart for the criminal class than they do for anyone else. Which is why you have all your f'ed up brothers in SF saying that they need to protect illegal aliens who've committed violent felonies, by providing them tax payer housing, food and education.

      Talk about f'ed up.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    154. Re:Just Remember... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Actually it wasn't. It was the Liberal Judges telling the Reagan Administration that they couldn't lock up people who are mentally ill, unless they were a danger to society. No need to have facilities open if you couldn't put people in them.

      Of course you don't remember the one judge who made the decision. And also, Reagan didn't cut funding, he couldn't. It was congress who authored the bill, and it was Democratic throughout Reagan's term. But you wouldn't know about that because it is much easier to blame the (R) bad people and praise the (D) good people.

      Now don't get me wrong, the (R) have their issues, but this isn't one of them.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    155. Re:Just Remember... by b0bby · · Score: 1

      Yes, I understood that. It's just that I think that the decent health care portion alone is likely to be sufficient. From what I see, most affordable housing initiatives are code for "we don't want to spend the money to solve the real issue, so we'll create a lottery where some (few) people get subsidised housing and it will appear that we're making a difference". In my opinion, it's a waste of money, at least in the instances that I'm aware of.

    156. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you sure you do not live in Columbia SC? Sounds exactly like Main Street.

    157. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I only saw one of them, but they placed it in Pioneer Square, which as soon as it gets dark fills up instantly with homeless. And it gets dark around 4pm in the winter, which means you have mobs of homeless fucking around with it for 16 hours a day, every day. If they'd put them somewhere else, perhaps things would be different, but they put at least one of them in a place where it'll be purposefully dirtied up by bored homeless.

    158. Re:Just Remember... by Digital+End · · Score: 1

      I'm going to assume you're not trolling rather then explain the difference between a adj and a noun.

      And the fact that it might be looked at as circular is why the nouns definition is there as well.

      --
      Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master.
    159. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have to take drugs to know their effect?

      Know? Well, other than vicariously.

      Yes, but we were talking about marijuana. If you want to broaden the spectrum, that's fine - are you saying you can get psychologically addicted to the effect of anything without physically experiencing it? Didn't think so.

      Ahh, this grandee is so perspicacious that he can envision your answer at a distance, without ever having met his interlocutor in person. Else, why would he have used the childishly supercilious phrase "Didn't think so." twice within a half dozen postings. Too bad he can only provide responses to questions he has put in your mouth, not any that you have asked. He must have access to an astounding number of straawmen to perpetuate such behavior.

      Jethro, you're naught but a silly poseur.

    160. Re:Just Remember... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because some losers may not be able to handle something doesn't mean the people who aren't losers should be denied the use of it.

      Excellent. For a more succinct version, may I refer you to Thomas of Aquinas -- Abusus non tollit usum". (Abuse does not take away use.)

    161. Re:Just Remember... by rootooftheworld · · Score: 0

      I'd rather not know. But that blog post he linked was disturbing. Since when is 16 y.o., i.e. my age, having sex normal? /joke

      --
      I know full well that tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack
    162. Re:Just Remember... by rootooftheworld · · Score: 0
      Amin! This is why I love /.

      Incidentaly, don't people realize that what is considred drug abuse is a simplified form selftreatment for psychiatric reasons? You don't have to be star craving mad to need such medication. Anybody in this crazy, unadapted to true human needs world can suffer from very real excess strain, loneliness, etc.. And having to go through the whole damn medical system in order to feel normal, for values of normal taken from your own book, seems stupid. I know someone's gonna troll 'take a vacation', 'leave that damn computer alone!', etc., but these people must realize that not all of us, no matter what Dr. House-esque tricks they pull, are going to be able to take rejection lightly and simply step off what has been there for them their whole meaningfull life, i.e. their job, the internet/studying for teenagers etc.. We need to be able to say 'fuck it' take some drink/pill and feel better about getting kicked off because, say, all schollgirls have a thing for older guys who use them like napkins, or whatever is making a drag on their lives. Somebody else is gonna say, 'well how did our ancestors handle it, hmm?'. And I'll answer - they didn't. Just my $o.o2.

      --
      I know full well that tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack
  2. Tragic. by dangitman · · Score: 5, Funny

    And common.

    --
    ... and then they built the supercollider.
    1. Re:Tragic. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eco 101 proves to be more useful by the day :)

  3. Well I could have told you that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In fact I'm pretty sure I did but of course people still believe that high tech must be better.

  4. Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In Vancouver, BC, drug use and prostitution are (if not outright legal) decriminalized. This means that the government is able to help those with a problem instead of being forced to put them away in prison.

    The public toilets getting abused is a sign of a much deeper problem. It's the puritanical mindset of Americans that pushes these normal behaviors into the shadows and away from the help that the victims so desperately need.

    It's a total waste of time to sell these things. It just means fewer public bathrooms downtown, and if you've ever been to a city with no public bathrooms (Philadelphia), you know that the terrible smell is the result.

    1. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by PeeAitchPee · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's the puritanical mindset of Americans that pushes these normal behaviors into the shadows

      Into the shadows? Hardly. Sounds like you've never been to Victor Steinbrueck Park in the middle of the most touristy section of Seattle, where you can see dozens of addicts and homeless cheerfully loitering about day or night. From Wikipedia:

      "The park is a popular gathering place for tourists, but also for the mentally ill, vagrants, alcoholics, and drug addicts. Public inebriation, nudity, and calls for assistance for unconscious individuals are common; a fall-off due to increased policing in the 1990s proved shortlived. There are a lot of drug-related misdemeanors and even minor felonies, though there have been no homicides."

      The only thing I find shocking is that this outcome surprised anyone.

    2. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by gmack · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'm guessing you have never been to the downtown east side in Vancouver.

      They are not even close to decriminalized. Just because they have one safe injection site does not mean that the police won't arrest you for dealing. It also does not mean they won't arrest you if they catch you using drugs in public.

      The reality of the downtown east side is that injection drug use is so rampant that the police couldn't arrest everyone who did it even if they wanted to. The single safe injection site isn't even close to large enough and neither are the detox centers. The result is that the dug users still shoot up in the alleys.

    3. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by muellerr1 · · Score: 1

      Down by the city lakes in Minneapolis there are porta-potties. I know that these things cost nowhere near $5 million to install, clean and maintain over their useful lifetimes. The issue here is not the cost or even the automation of the public bathrooms, but how a publicly-available private space will get used for all kinds of private things.

      Our public toilets are mainly used by joggers, bicyclists, kids, and I'm sure the occasional Larry Craig. The real issue is whether the need for public toilets for legitimate purposes overrides the Senator's uses. If there aren't enough people around for somebody to call the police then either lock the bathrooms during low-traffic times or reexamine why you've placed a public toilet in a low-traffic area.

    4. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by The_Mr_Flibble · · Score: 5, Funny

      "The park is a popular gathering place for tourists, but also for the mentally ill, vagrants, alcoholics, and drug addicts. Public inebriation, nudity, and calls for assistance for unconscious individuals are common; a fall-off due to increased policing in the 1990s proved shortlived. There are a lot of drug-related misdemeanors and even minor felonies, though there have been no homicides."

      Hey I'm british
      That describes just about any sort of park I visit

    5. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Kinwolf · · Score: 4, Informative

      How can it be decriminalised in Vancouver? Drug use and prostitution is a federal offense written in the criminal code of Canada, no city law can change or overrule that.

    6. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by bistromath007 · · Score: 1

      Describes any sort of park over here too, we just really love pretending to be shocked by it. We wouldn't have it any other way, though. What good is getting out of the house if there's nobody worse than you to gawk at?

    7. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by bistromath007 · · Score: 1

      Afterthought: Why else is Wal-Mart so popular?

    8. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, I work in Philadelphia, and I wish to inform you that much of the city IS one large public bathroom.

    9. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by caluml · · Score: 1
      From the WP article:

      Victor Steinbrueck Park is a 0.8 acre (3,000 m) park

      Dude, that's not a park. That's someone's back garden. *This* is a park: RegentsPark (487 acre), or a couple from the city I'm in now: Blaise Castle (650 acre), and The Downs (400 acre)

    10. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      At least in the United States, most drug offenses are caught at the city level. While things like marijuana are considered dangerous drugs and can be prosecuted at all levels, there is a significant amount of discretion that can be applied to each police department. In Seattle and several other cities the laws were amended so that enforcement of the personal use of marijuana is the lowest law enforcement priority. Smoking a joint is still illegal in Seattle, but that doesn't stop public events like Hempfest from having massive outdoor stoner parties.

    11. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Where what were once vices are now virtues.

      --
      "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
    12. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by goodmanj · · Score: 4, Informative

      There was an article on this in the NY Times a couple of weeks ago. In addition to drug use and prostitution, people would leave so much trash in the toilets that the automatic scrubbers had to be disabled or they jammed on the trash... and as a result, the toilets became so disgusting that even the druggies avoided them.

      ""I'm not going to lie: I used to smoke crack in there," said one homeless woman, Veronyka Cordner, nodding toward the toilet behind Pike Place Market. "But I won't even go inside that thing now. It's disgusting.""

      http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/17/us/17toilets.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=seattle%20public%20toilet&st=cse&oref=slogin

      IMO, the reason this works in other countries but not in the U.S. has nothing to do with our "puritanical mindset": instead, it's because Americans have no concept of public common space. We feel that everything on Earth is for our exclusive personal use until someone tries to stop us.

    13. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "Dude, that's not a park. That's someone's back garden. *This* is a park: RegentsPark (487 acre), or a couple from the city I'm in now: Blaise Castle (650 acre), and The Downs (400 acre)"

      Nah...Here's a real park...(1300 acres). City Park in New Orleans.

      Alas...much of it is still in disrepair, although I hear one of the 2 golf courses should be up soon?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    14. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's an interesting question.

      Last I heard (and I have seen evidence of this) is that Wal-Mart effectively has an official company policy that RVs and similar vehicles are allowed to park in their parking lots overnight, even for extended periods. Most other businesses would call the cops or chase the RVs away.

      The rationale for Wal-Mart? The people in that camper parked in the parking lot are likely going to go for the most convenient supply shopping available.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    15. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Neoprofin · · Score: 1

      If you really want to get into a park acreage contest, THIS is a park: Chugach Park.

    16. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Tuzanor · · Score: 1

      There is a safe injection site in Vancouver that has a specific exemption in the Criminal code. Also, prostitution isn't technically illegal in Canada, but publicly soliciting it is. Escorts are perfectly legal here.

    17. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seattle is a pretty liberal town -- I think there are plenty here who would be fine with decriminalizing both. The problem really is vagrancy -- people who are more likely to piss on the walls than in the toilet itself. The toilets became a place that no decent person would want to use.

      Sadly, that summarizes the tourist areas of Seattle as well. Because of our mild weather and open arms to people in need, the whole downtown area is littered with vagrants, and has been for the past decades. I can't knock a guy for being down on his luck, but that doesn't describe these people. It makes both the tourists and locals uncomfortable to have so many just milling around, defecating everywhere, trading drugs, accosting people for money, and so on. I'm glad to se the toilets gone because they were a financial boondoggle and attracted too many problems. Too bad because it is hard to find a public toilet here!

    18. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by optimus2861 · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up, please. GP is blatantly mistaken on the criminal status of drug use & prostitution in Vancouver, but I suppose the +5 really came about for the potshot at "puritanical Americans".

    19. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Nutria · · Score: 1

      the puritanical mindset of Americans

      Since when has left-wing do-gooder Seattle been associated with Puritanism?

      --
      "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
    20. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 4, Informative

      Another reason it fails in the U.S. is that it has a much larger homeless and mentally ill population roaming the streets of its major cities than just about any other first-world country I can name.

    21. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by ktappe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The only thing I find shocking is that this outcome surprised anyone.

      Surprised, no. Disappointed, yes. I saw self-cleaning public toilets last week in Paris that were being used by the public for what they were intended for, not for illicit behavior. Why is it they work there and not in Seattle? My theory is that it's a societal thing--for some reason the citizenry of Seattle did not kick the druggies and prostitutes out of the toilets when they saw them. If a high enough % of the public objects to bad behavior, it becomes unacceptable and it stops. Parisians apparently made it clear that they wanted their toilets to stay toilets whereas Seattle-ites didn't care enough to maintain control of their city. Until Americans stand up and take back their streets, this is the type of result we might as well get used to.

      --
      "We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
    22. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by commodoresloat · · Score: 1

      Hey I'm british
      That describes just about any sort of park I visit

      Wait a minute, it doesn't say it was raining there!
       
      Oh, yeah, this is Seattle, I guess it would have been redundant.

    23. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Funny but that doesn't describe any of the parks around where I live.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    24. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by MadnessASAP · · Score: 1

      Christ, you've got nothing on Canada. Asides from a few little drops of asphalt and cement on our southern border the rest of this bloody country is a damn park.

      --
      I may agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to face the consequences of saying it.
    25. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by MadnessASAP · · Score: 1

      At least as far as marijuana and other less drastic drugs go, the police for the most part simply choose not to enforce the laws with some even being supportive of it.

      --
      I may agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to face the consequences of saying it.
    26. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by caluml · · Score: 1

      To be fair, it has to be (according to my rules, which I'm making up now) within a decent sized city. Say > 250k inhabitants.

    27. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What can you possibly mean by "pushing these normal behaviors into the shadows"? Do you mean that it is normal to do drugs and prostitute?

      I live in Vancouver and let me tell you - the victims here are the citizens that have to put up with the crimes these scum commit.

      The government up here thinks it's all okay to let the junkies run wild and free. I say it's time to take a hard line and take out the trash. How about a boot-camp in the far north?

    28. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by try_anything · · Score: 1

      It's the puritanical mindset of Americans that pushes these normal behaviors into the shadows and away from the help that the victims so desperately need.

      I'm pretty sure it isn't the puritanical mindset of Americans. It's more that drug users and prostitutes feel embarrassed and humiliated that everyone, including you, considers them "victims" who "desperately need" help. There's nothing to be done about that -- they are in a pathetic state, and they know it. Pretending they're doing okay with their "lifestyle choice" wouldn't help, even if we could do it with a straight face. So go ahead and help those people, and I'll continue to vote for my tax dollars to support the effort, but don't think they're going to feel good about basking in your pity. They feel just as ashamed under your gaze as under that of a "puritanical American."

    29. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by try_anything · · Score: 1

      P.S. As per common usage, by "drugs" I mean "the ones that mess you up and ruin your life."

    30. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by sponga · · Score: 1

      Agreed.

      Why can't they pull up the seat when taking a piss in one of the porta-potties?

    31. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by b0bby · · Score: 1

      Let's talk real parks - Rock Creek Park in DC is over 1700 acres. One of the best things about DC.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Creek_Park

    32. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by blincoln · · Score: 1

      Since when has left-wing do-gooder Seattle been associated with Puritanism?

      There are plenty of crusaders in Seattle. Their support of fascist-environmentalism (taxes on shopping bags, elimination of free parking) tends to distract people from realizing that they also oppose traditional vices like cheap alcohol and strip clubs.

      --
      "...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
    33. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't just demand things of people in America, like kicking a druggie out of a public toilet, no matter how noble your cause. You never know who might be carrying a loaded gun.

    34. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by grahamm · · Score: 3, Informative

      Though the 'access gratuit' sanisettes in Paris are only open from 06:00 to 22:00, and it is not (or was not when I was there a couple of months ago) uncommon to see them out of use.

    35. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by infosinger · · Score: 1

      Being a liberal town I would expect Seattle to have some of the best social services and thus considerably less vagrancy than the norm. I guess that is a bad theory.

    36. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by George+Beech · · Score: 1

      Man you all have nothing on Fairmount Park (9200 acres) in Philly, you can start in Valley Forge and end up at the art museum without leaving the park system.

    37. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This means that the government is able to help those with a problem instead of being forced to put them away in prison.

      Wait just a second here. Government, the organization holding a monopoly on the special right to employ force as a business model, being forced to put people in prison? I reckon you're just a bit mixed up. The victim of force in that situation is most definitely NOT government.

    38. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      As a Parisian, I can tell you that the people here will probably not move their finger to prevent druggies and prostitutes in toilets. But the cops will.

      I think the issue in Seattles is the classic political correctness of Americans:

      Toilets had to be accessible to disabled people.

      Due to that requirement, you end up with huge toilets, which, by definition, have more use than the Parisian sanisette (I think that if a prostitute went with customers in a sanisette, there would probably be people outside clapping their hands when they would come out, due to sheer awesomeness of such an act).

      Also, being huge, Seattles sanisettes were costly, so they ended up with only 5. 5 is a very small number, so of course they have been broken very fast.

      In Paris, sanisettes are NOT accessible to disabled people. There are special ones that ARE accessible, but those are NOT accessible to the general public (you need a specific card), so they are kept in a correct state.

      That is not politically correct. But it works.

    39. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by nsayer · · Score: 2, Informative

      Local decriminalization typically means that the cops simply don't go out of their way to uncover and investigate certain crimes, regardless of whether or not they're federal, state or local ordinance violations.

      Just for instance, the San Mateo county sheriff's office recently raided a home poker tournament. I guess they weren't interested in prosecuting prostitution.

    40. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by NeuroManson · · Score: 3, Informative

      The term used by RV'ers is "outrigging", living out of their camper/RV without hooking up to city water/power (some of the rigs are nice, but occasionally you get someone with a 1972 Winnebago with dry rot).

      However, not all Wal-Marts are welcoming them with open arms these days. I've seen two with more restrictive policies, one banning them outright, while another has sections of their parking lots that are off limits to outriggers.

      From personal observation, however, it seems to me that if you could afford a running RV (you can easily get one in adequate operating condition for less than $2,000), you could afford a spot at a campground for $400 a month. Hardly what any reasonable person would consider exhorbitant. They aren't too bad either, you get sewage disposal, fresh water, electricity and even cable in some places as part of the bargain. While many have restrictions on how long you can stay, if you have a good record with the owners, you probably could renew pretty quickly.

      I spent a few months living out of a 18' trailer myself, and while running the water heater was a pain in the butt on cold mornings, it was fairly comfortable. Your mileage may vary.

      --
      Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
    41. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by NeuroManson · · Score: 1

      Oops, my bad, just woke up and didn't get my terminology right. The term is "boondocking", not "outrigging". Bad brain! Bad!

      --
      Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
    42. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by coryking · · Score: 1

      >Victor Steinbrueck Park

      That is the best park in the whole city because it doesn't pretend to be some bullshit suburban 'escape from the city' design. Fuck the tourists who trickle out of pike place market (who clog that place up and make snarky comments about organic food). They get scared because they have to interact with non-tourists and don't visit, which is fine with me.

      You sit in that park, and you are an equal with everybody else in it. No better, no worse.

      Plus lots of musicians play crap there. Did I mention it has a good view and doesn't have as much viaduct noise as elsewhere?

      No, that park is my favorite in the entire city.

    43. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      Nah, the city council hates those too- they tried to pass a law mandating a 6 foot gap between strippers and viewers. Enough citizens signed to oppose it to put it on the ballot, and it lost by a landslide. So lapdances remained legal.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    44. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by coryking · · Score: 1

      And to add, in Seattle, it is not uncommon to see people blatantly smoking joints a mere hundred yards from cops. They do it knowing full well the smell will carry over to the cops and yet do it anyway. Why? Nobody cares.

      Like any growing city, Seattle has it's problems, but arcane drug laws aren't one of them.

    45. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Blkdeath · · Score: 1

      To be fair, it has to be (according to my rules, which I'm making up now) within a decent sized city. Say > 250k inhabitants.

      So in order to be fair, it must fit unfairly within an arbitrary set of limitations? :)

      FWIW; I agree with the GP. The Canadian Shield trumps all. But if you want to get picky about it, you could always visit Algonquin Park - approximately 1,891,208 acres (or 7,653 km^2, or 2,955 in mi^2).

      Sure, it's about 3 1/2 hours drive away from Toronto but it's a short 2 hour jaunt from Barrie, ON.

      The problem with Canadian parks and reserves is that they're so fscking big they just plain can't fit inside our cities. Heck, you could put the entirety of Megacity Toronto (formerly the "GTA") inside Algonquin and still have a campsite remote enough you couldn't see the skyline.

      --
      BD Phone Home!

      Shameless plug. Like you weren't expecting it.

    46. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Another reason it fails in the U.S. is that it has a much larger homeless and mentally ill population roaming the streets of its major cities than just about any other first-world country I can name.

      Look, we're talking about Washington state, not Washington, D.C.

      Big difference.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    47. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't speak for how things are in Paris, but I imagine that many Seattle residents aren't particularly interested in confronting drug-users/dealers/prostitutes about their illicit use of public toilets, given that doing so could easily result in being stabbed or shot.

      When I read back over the history of the coverage of this project, I was rather surprised to see that the Seattle government expected local residents/business owners to police the facilities themselves. Given the choice between injury or death from confronting a criminal about their illicit use of the public toilet and simply ignoring it, I imagine most folks would choose the latter option.

    48. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only thing I find shocking is that this outcome surprised anyone.

      Surprised, no. Disappointed, yes. I saw self-cleaning public toilets last week in Paris that were being used by the public for what they were intended for, not for illicit behavior. Why is it they work there and not in Seattle?

      There is one such potty on the Embarcadero in SF across the SF Ferry Building. It works just fine. There is one right outside the Embarcadero BART that does not work.

    49. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by darkmeridian · · Score: 1

      It is immaterial whether or not something is a crime if no one is going to bother enforcing it. See, the Constitution in the hands of Bush.

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
    50. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by PeeAitchPee · · Score: 1

      Fuck the tourists who trickle out of pike place market (who clog that place up and make snarky comments about organic food)

      You mean the people who keep Pike Place and the park around with the dollars they spend? Yeah, that's a great way to run the city and keep those facilities available for everyone.

      They get scared because they have to interact with non-tourists and don't visit

      Last time I was there, some crackhead tailed me for three blocks after I refused to buy two (undoubtedly empty) Applebee's gift cards from him for $20. If that's your definition of "interaction," you've got some issues.

      Many of us think a park should be a nice place to visit with our family. If I've got to worry about being harassed by junkies or that my kid might stick himself with a discarded needle or be cut with broken whiskey bottles, I certainly wouldn't call it "the best park in the whole city." That the situation is allowed to continue at taxpayers' expense is more criminal than what goes on there.

    51. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by psydeshow · · Score: 1

      ""I'm not going to lie: I used to smoke crack in there," said one homeless woman, Veronyka Cordner, nodding toward the toilet behind Pike Place Market. "But I won't even go inside that thing now. It's disgusting.""

      I remember that as being the Best Quote Ever for the month of July. Thanks for re-posting!

    52. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by HungWeiLo · · Score: 1

      That is an awesome park. I love taking my lunch break walk there and watching the tourists lay down on the lawn not knowing that there was probably vomit and other bodily fluids right where they are just several hours prior.

      And pointing the tourists to a random direction each day when they ask for the Space Needle (it's almost clearly visible from the park, yet they still ask).

      It's also interesting to note that the Midwesterners who congregate around the original Starbucks to listen to the live musicians will stand an average of 3 ft away if the musicians are white, but at least 7-8 ft away if they happen to be black.

      --
      There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
    53. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by rjstanford · · Score: 1

      From personal observation, however, it seems to me that if you could afford a running RV (you can easily get one in adequate operating condition for less than $2,000), you could afford a spot at a campground for $400 a month.

      While I don't disagree with your final conclusions, I have to question your math here - just because you can afford a $2000 one-time payment doesn't imply that you can spend 1/5 that amount every single month.

      --
      You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
    54. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Mr+Z · · Score: 1

      ""I'm not going to lie: I used to smoke crack in there," said one homeless woman, Veronyka Cordner, nodding toward the toilet behind Pike Place Market. "But I won't even go inside that thing now. It's disgusting.""

      I don't know why, but that reminded me of this old gem.

    55. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by 21mhz · · Score: 1

      Here in Helsinki capital area, there is a fair amount of street toilets that are split in two parts. The cramped part is free, the more spacious and comfortable one is for 50 cents. Then again, there are very few homeless people in Finland, or there were, until beggars from Romania started to arrive in numbers.

      --
      My exception safety is -fno-exceptions.
    56. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by TheNarrator · · Score: 1

      No, the reason it doesn't work is that there is a huge cultural gap between the extremely poor and the rest of the classes in the United States. This doesn't really happen so much in other rich countries where there is more of a social safety net and the very poor have more respect for the public places and institutions of the country.

    57. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm in Victoria BC (for everyone else, that's the provincial capital, just a little south of Vancouver). I've watched the downtown street scene ebb and flow since 1980. Unjammed more than a few needled-clogged toilets for cafes, cleaned up enough shit and needles and condoms, fixed enough vandalism. I must stay I don't see what you're getting at. I think those toilets would fail here exactly as in Seattle. And any time I've visted downtown Vancouver, the street scene seemed much harsher over there.

      Also note we've just had some of our downtown parks trimmed of most shrubbery and branches hanging under six feet to try to reduce the number of such hideouts. We've got persistant problems with this sort of thing, and it's been on another rise for the last few years. There's no way those toilets would be spared that sort of traffic here.

      I won't be voting Conservative any time soon, or prompting for a more American-like society, but I think your analysis and accusation are off.

    58. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Sibko · · Score: 1

      It's been my understanding that while the federal cats in Ottawa might legislate a law, it's up to each individual Province to decide if they actually want to uphold it.

    59. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Before or after you visit?

    60. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Com2Kid · · Score: 1

      Their support of fascist-environmentalism (taxes on shopping bags, elimination of free parking)

      Taxes on shopping bags are not fascist, in fact they are quite in line with free market capitalistic tendencies.

      Capitalism is dependent upon well defined property rights (thus forcing the purchase, rather than the theft of, goods from another). When plastic bags are disposed of, the person disposing them does not pay the true cost of their disposal. A tax on plastic grocery bags is merely forcing consumers to pay for the true cost of their actions. The alternative is having future generations pay the cost, in effect stealing value from them.

      Likewise with most environmental tax proposals. When implemented properly, they are not "sin" taxes designed to discourage something (although they may be presented that way), but rather they just charge people the true cost for their actions.

      Put another way, if it costs 20 cents to clean up the environmental damage that a plastic bag will do, then you and I, as consumers of plastic bags, should have to pay a 20 cent fee.

      An alternative is to have someone else somewhere in the plastic bag's life pay the fee, which will get passed down to you. The problem is ensuring funds from the tax go to the proper destination, it is easier to track the money if it is collected in the final locale.

    61. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by euxneks · · Score: 1

      That is not politically correct. But it works.

      If I was disabled, I sure as hell would want my own bathroom.

      --
      in girum imus nocte et consumimur igni
    62. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by symbolic · · Score: 1

      We feel that everything on Earth is for our exclusive personal use until someone tries to stop us.

      Truer words were never spoken. It sucks donkey dookie, but the attitude is everywhere.

    63. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 1

      I've been to Seattle and worked there for a while. No, it's not as bad as San Francisco or DC, but it's still worse than most European cities by a long shot.

    64. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by LackThereof · · Score: 1

      Seattle provides free food to homeless people in several places daily, and during the cold winter months the city allows people to sleep in City Hall. However, all the significant social service programs are controlled by the DSHS, a state department. Washington is by no means a high-tax state, does not have a state income tax, and has vast rural areas that just don't care about social services.

      As a result, in order to get help from the government here, you have to do one of the following
      a) be 62 or older
      b) have children who will starve without it
      c) be in danger of imminent death
      d) go to jail

      Being crazy, homeless, covered in your own urine, hooked on crack, and crazy does not qualify you.

      Basically the social services available to a homeless person or a drug addict in Seattle is just barely enough to keep them breathing. The city doesn't have the resources to take care of them, and the state is unwilling to spend money on what they see as "Seattle's problem".

      --
      Legalize recreational marijuana. Seriously.
    65. Re:Meanwhile, 3 hours by car away... by MMInterface · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what your point in comparing Seattle to Vancouver in this manner is. Despite government help, Vancouver has an even worse drug and prostitution problems than Seattle.

  5. The City of Seattle by Apple+Acolyte · · Score: 3, Insightful

    must have been swimming in their people's money to buy $5M in toilets. If I were a resident I'd be quite enraged over it.

    --
    Part of the hardcore faithful who believed in Apple long before it was cool again to do so
    1. Re:The City of Seattle by CaptainZapp · · Score: 2, Interesting

      must have been swimming in their people's money to buy $5M in toilets. If I were a resident I'd be quite enraged over it.

      The City of Zurich, with a population of roughly 400'000 has an annual budget of 18M Swiss Francs (17M $) for public toilets and the citizenship actually appreciates it.

      It's probably all a matter of perspective, but I have the strong impression that USians really detest paying taxes for anything. Infrastucture, like clean public toilets, working and reliable public transports and a canal system that doesn't ooze shit stench out of the pavements has a price. And in other parts of the world citizens are willing to pay that via their taxes.

      --
      ich bin der musikant

      mit taschenrechner in der hand

      kraftwerk

    2. Re:The City of Seattle by Apple+Acolyte · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It seems your city is more civilized than Seattle. Those hi-tech crappers were being abused and weren't clean at all. I'll pay for certain things as a tax payer, but $5M toilets aren't one of them.

      --
      Part of the hardcore faithful who believed in Apple long before it was cool again to do so
  6. seattle-PI- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    story on seattlePI.nwsource.com ?

  7. Seattle, You're Doin' It Wrong by strelitsa · · Score: 2, Informative

    1. Legalize drugs and prostitution.

    2. ???

    3. PROFIT!!!

    --
    No mod points, no meta-moderating/Firehose/all the other free work Slashdot wants me to do.
    1. Re:Seattle, You're Doin' It Wrong by Timothy+Brownawell · · Score: 3, Interesting

      1. Legalize drugs and prostitution.

      2. ???

      3. PROFIT!!!

      But how do they profit when they can't steal^Wseize your property on a whim any more?

    2. Re:Seattle, You're Doin' It Wrong by Osurak · · Score: 1

      1. Legalize drugs and prostitution.

      2. ???

      3. PROFIT!!!

      You forgot a step:

      4. Get voted out of office at the earliest opportunity.

    3. Re:Seattle, You're Doin' It Wrong by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's called taxation...

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    4. Re:Seattle, You're Doin' It Wrong by Darby · · Score: 2, Insightful

      4. Get voted out of office at the earliest opportunity.

      It's a sad thing when standing up for the Constitution and working to greatly reduce violent crime guarantees someone would get voted out.

    5. Re:Seattle, You're Doin' It Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Informative? are the mods on crack today?

    6. Re:Seattle, You're Doin' It Wrong by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "It's a sad thing when standing up for the Constitution and working to greatly reduce violent crime guarantees someone would get voted out."

      Well, heck, public service was never meant to be a lifetime career anyway....

      Get in, change the laws, and get out...win/win situation all around.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    7. Re:Seattle, You're Doin' It Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do you ask? Are you out?

    8. Re:Seattle, You're Doin' It Wrong by MBGMorden · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The next group who wishes to stay in office will just change them back though.

      Same reason why many conservatives are hypocrites. They'll whine about how the Democrats are being a bunch of commies and how "This isn't the land of my fathers. The government is taking everything away. This country is no longer free!". All the while when they're going on about freedom.

      Then if you dare mention legalizing drugs and/or prostitution, letting a TV network show what they want (like, heaven forbid a show with gay characters), or letting anybody worship whatever deity they choose, then they get up in arms. In my area of the country it's been hell just getting the blue laws repealed - there are still some towns that won't let you buy alcohol on a Sunday, and in the town next to the college I attended you couldn't buy general goods on Sunday - the super Wal-mart had a large divider that they had to pull between the grocery section and the general goods on Sundays :S.

      Basically, they want freedom so long as the free act passes their "raht" philosophy. If "that ain't raht", then you shouldn't be able to do it - all other approved activities are fine to remain free.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    9. Re:Seattle, You're Doin' It Wrong by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "letting a TV network show what they want (like, heaven forbid a show with gay characters)..."

      Hmm...I don't think there are any laws or rules against this. Just that the general public, in general, isn't really asking to watch shows about gay people. You can't blame the market for offering what the public wants.

      Besides...if you want to watch lots of gay people...just keep it tuned onto the Bravo network....plenty of people that are light in their loafers there.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    10. Re:Seattle, You're Doin' It Wrong by TempeTerra · · Score: 1

      Taxes. Although some would say that is equivalent to stealing your property.

      --
      .evom ton seod gis eht
    11. Re:Seattle, You're Doin' It Wrong by MBGMorden · · Score: 1

      Hmm...I don't think there are any laws or rules against this. Just that the general public, in general, isn't really asking to watch shows about gay people.

      Neither am I - that particular remark stemmed from a heated discussion I had on a conservative forum where most of the members were up in arms demanding the the government force Will and Grace to be pulled from the airwaves because it showcased a gay character. I don't even watch the show (I've seen small pieces of maybe 3 episodes tops), but it was appalling to me that these same people who were supposedly championing "freedom" wanted such a show forcibly pulled. Their justification was as usual that it could/would corrupt the nation's youth.

      Remember political battles aren't simply about what's already law, but also about preventing negative future changes as well.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
  8. Amsterdam by johannesg · · Score: 1

    This is why Amsterdam has public toilets that look like this: http://lh3.ggpht.com/_D4avj_GZuq4/SAsa2yTgvYI/AAAAAAAAB6E/ANS4tx2JuKc/toilet.jpg

    Sure, it is not very private, nor can it be considered to be self-cleaning. But they aren't very attractive hideouts for prostitution and drug use either.

    Haha! As if Amsterdam had any prostitution or drug use going!

    1. Re:Amsterdam by Loibisch · · Score: 3, Funny

      Amsterdam's toilets look like a 404? What, do you have to piss into the hole between the two fours?

    2. Re:Amsterdam by Colin+Smith · · Score: 2, Funny

      Nah, they just have a quick thinking sysadmin who reads Slashdot.

       

      --
      Deleted
    3. Re:Amsterdam by Sobieski · · Score: 1

      The image works now, it's a urinal with four sides and no walls placed on a sidewalk. It looks very temporary, with a loop on top for a crane to hook into for easy moving.

      I have seen the same type here in Sweden during festivals, good idea IMO.

      --
      Particles, stuff that matters.
    4. Re:Amsterdam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Proper link:

      http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afbeelding:Krul2.jpg

    5. Re:Amsterdam by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Amsterdam has some permanent stone constructions called "urinors" aswell, they are basically a stone wall with a hole at around the right height to piss through, and a canal is on the other side... Not very pleasant for anyone who happens to be in a passing boat.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    6. Re:Amsterdam by eggoeater · · Score: 1

      Sure, it is not very private, nor can it be considered to be self-cleaning. But they aren't very attractive hideouts for prostitution and drug use either.

      Actually, when I was on vacation in Seattle in '04, I had to use the public restrooms at Pike Place. The doors on the stalls were maybe 3 feet high so cops can see you from the torso up to (1) make sure you're alone and (2) not doing drugs. Luckily it was a Sunday morning and there wasn't anyone else in there. Also, it was fairly clean for a public restroom in downtown Seattle.

    7. Re:Amsterdam by Loibisch · · Score: 1

      Curiously after your comment I tried the link again and the image was still down. So I tried with Konqueror instead and there it is...back to Firefox and I get a 404.

      If I modify the URL in Firefox, hit enter, and modify it back it will finally agree to give me the image. But not if I follow the /. link. Weird.

    8. Re:Amsterdam by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      He's checking the referer and dumping all traffic from /.

      It's a good solution to prevent slashdotting, while keeping your site available.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    9. Re:Amsterdam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a three shell prototype

    10. Re:Amsterdam by CatoNine · · Score: 1

      The best and most pretty urinal in Amsterdam is De Krul (the Curl)
              http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afbeelding:Krul2.jpg
      The design dates back to 1880 and it is very airy above *and* below
      to facilitate inspection for inappropriate use.
      Cheers, Richard (Amsterdam)

    11. Re:Amsterdam by maxume · · Score: 1
      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    12. Re:Amsterdam by Joebert · · Score: 2, Funny

      Don't be so sure, I've met some freaky people from Amsterdam.

      --
      Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
    13. Re:Amsterdam by Loibisch · · Score: 1

      doh :P

    14. Re:Amsterdam by Joebert · · Score: 1

      Probably blocking Slasdot referer headers but not empty referer headers. you should be able to just click your address bar and hit enter without the modification part.

      --
      Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
    15. Re:Amsterdam by slash.duncan · · Score: 1

      Hmm, possible /. referrer block? Depending on how your browsers are setup, of course, but presumably you loaded konqueror for the link directly so it wouldn't have had the /. referrer, while you were using firefox to view /. first, and clicking the link directly then had /. as your referrer, while manually changing the address bar didn't.

      FWIW it's working in both browsers here, but both are running thru privoxy, with referrer conditional-block (delete header if coming from a different server), so clicking thru from /. to a different site would appear as if I typed or copied the link in, or used a bookmark -- no referrer header. WTF do they need to know what other site I was coming from? Thus, they don't get that info from me!

      --
      Duncan
      "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master,
      and if you use the program, he is your master."
      R Stallman
  9. $5,000,000? by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sounds like they got ripped off in the first place. It shouldn't cost that much to develop something like that unless you have no clue about what you're doing.

    1. Re:$5,000,000? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Sounds like they got ripped off in the first place. It shouldn't cost that much to develop something like that unless you have no clue about what you're doing.

      Chances are the sale cost was based on "what the manufacturer thinks customers would be willing to pay" rather than "what they cost to develop".

    2. Re:$5,000,000? by tgd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Like, you know, every product out there.

    3. Re:$5,000,000? by jcupitt65 · · Score: 1

      Automated Public Conveniences have been around for years. For example:

      http://www.jcdecaux.co.uk/development/apc/

      cost around £100,000 to buy and install, then some amount each year for maintenance. I guess they spent so much on the install they had no money left to look after the things.

    4. Re:$5,000,000? by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I that's what I thought. Surely a public city project can find developers willing to treat it like a public project, and not a commercial project? But then again, this is the US, not Sweden, I guess.

    5. Re:$5,000,000? by Dr.+Hok · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Sounds like they got ripped off in the first place.

      True, especially since we have the same toilets here (Berlin, Germany). IIRC they were installed for free, the deal being that the toilet operator uses the outside walls for advertising. And gets 50c per pee, but I doubt that this covers the expenses.

      AFAICT we don't have any problems with drugs and prostitution on these toilets, in case you're curious.

      --
      Say out loud: I'm an Aspie and I'm somewhat proud, I guess. Uh. Can I write an email in all caps instead? Hm...
    6. Re:$5,000,000? by Tom · · Score: 2, Informative

      Like so many others, you didn't RTFA, it seems.

      The $5 mio. was not the initial price-tag. It was the accumulated cost, mostly of maintainance, over a period of four years. So it's not development costs, but maintainance, cleaning (the self-clean broke down), etc.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    7. Re:$5,000,000? by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      No, actually. Many projects for public use aren't done at normal commercial rates.

  10. Open the pot bay door, Hal by wisty · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'm sorry David, I can't do that.

    1. Re:Open the pot bay door, Hal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jeez... if you're going to quote 2001 at least get it right:

      "I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I cunt do that."
       

  11. What is the story here? by niceone · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm confused. This type of toilet is quite popular all sorts of places, so I guess they must be cheaper than providing toilets in some other way. But as Seattle aren't going to be replacing them with anything else... that is going to be cheaper. So, what's the story? That Seattle can't afford public toilets?

    1. Re:What is the story here? by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      Seems pretty messed up when an entire city can't have public toilets. As an Australian we have an entire country filled with public toilets. Seems to be a non-issue over here.

    2. Re:What is the story here? by couchslug · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Public facilities in some areas will be ruined by the hopeless loser (it's no troll to call them what they are!) segment of the public, such as bums, drunks, and junkies. That makes providing those facilities a waste.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    3. Re:What is the story here? by Provocateur · · Score: 1

      such as bums, drunks, and junkies.

      Whew! 2 out 3! Almost became a hopeless loser there!
       
      /wipes sweat off brow with grimy towel

      --
      WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
    4. Re:What is the story here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently, Seattle didn't want advertising on the toilets, so they had to pay an arm and a leg for them.

    5. Re:What is the story here? by JosKarith · · Score: 1

      That's no way to talk about the fair ladies of your country sir...
      (Sorry, just couldn't resist)

      --
      'Don't worry' said the trees when they saw the axe coming, 'The handle is one of us.'
    6. Re:What is the story here? by b0bby · · Score: 1

      Also apparently, WA has a law against charging for the use of public toilets.

    7. Re:What is the story here? by LackThereof · · Score: 1

      As a Seattle resident, I can say that there are no public toilets here. There weren't any before these were installed, and now that they're gone, there are again none.

      We like to ignore the problem, and that's why the alleys smell like piss.

      --
      Legalize recreational marijuana. Seriously.
    8. Re:What is the story here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some of these 'losers' used to be 'productive members of society' until something tragic happened to them -- like losing their job when deemed unecessary by the bean counters.

      It is said most people are one paycheck away from socioeconomic ruin.

      I blame greed, advertising, and inflation for creating the environment for these tragedies to occur.

  12. They need to raise taxes. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since they're obviously so smart about how to spend the taxpayers' money.

  13. War on Drugs by Colin+Smith · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Just gets better and better.

    Still, you get the government you deserve.

     

    --
    Deleted
  14. Well... by Fyz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That sucks, but this is how progress works. You can't know if something will pan out in advance, because there are too many variables.

    And if it had been a massive success, $5M would have been pocket change compared to the convenience and cost effectiveness of full automation.

    1. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      ARE YOU NUTS!? How in the world does it make ANY sense to not pay a janitor a yearly salary to clean FIVE TOILETS instead of $5 million???? At $55,000 per year you could get 3 janitors on salary for 30 years. I'm pretty sure 3 janitors could clean more than 5 toilets in a day.

      You're the kind of jackass that is in Seattle govt.

    2. Re:Well... by Fyz · · Score: 1

      Before you start calling me names, Mr. Coward, maybe you should consider what that money went to. My guess is, primarily research and development.

      Do you think Seattle would buy more toilets if it was a success? Do you think that if they bought, say, 100 toilets, they would still be paying a million a pop?

      Now unfortunately, it turns out that these units weren't as cheap to maintain as they were supposed to be. Well, that's tough, but unless you're the kind of jackass who believes that backwards rationalization is a valid line of argumentation, you couldn't know that until it had been tried out.

      And if it *had* worked, you might be seeing these all over the world in a few years time.

    3. Re:Well... by Danse · · Score: 1

      Before you start calling me names, Mr. Coward, maybe you should consider what that money went to. My guess is, primarily research and development.

      So the City of Seattle was doing this as a charitable donation to research and development of public restroom technology by a German company?

      Now unfortunately, it turns out that these units weren't as cheap to maintain as they were supposed to be. Well, that's tough, but unless you're the kind of jackass who believes that backwards rationalization is a valid line of argumentation, you couldn't know that until it had been tried out.

      I wonder what evidence they had up front that those maintenance projections were realistic, or what assumptions were made about things like police monitoring and such. I haven't seen anything about it that in any of the articles.

      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    4. Re:Well... by mypalmike · · Score: 1

      Progress? Variables? We're talking about public toilets - not exactly a new concept. Put a rookie cop and a janitor in charge of a few small buildings with regular old American Standards (heck, Kohler if you want to splurge), and you've got the model that many cities have successfully used for many years.

      --
      There are 0x40000000 types of people: those who understand 32-bit IEEE 754 floating point, and those who don't.
    5. Re:Well... by Kevin72594 · · Score: 1

      If you'll read some of the above comments, these are seen all over the world and are successful. Apparently Seattle just sucks.

    6. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't remember calling you a name...I asked if you were nuts (not a name?) or that you were the kind of jackass in the Seattle govt (a comparison). Now unless you really are in the Seattle govt...

      Big surprise! Govt. says, "Hey this is great,we should buy this!" They buy it...and oh darn it costs 10x as much as we said and it doesn't work as well as we thought.

      "Well, that's tough, but unless you're the kind of jackass who believes that backwards rationalization is a valid line of argumentation, you couldn't know that until it had been tried out."

      This is why you will never make it in business, so please do not try, keep working in your cubicle. A business cannot succeed if it cannot properly project cost and revenue. Bottom line. But of course the govt. can print its own money or raise your taxes! WAKE UP! This isn't some fairyland, the Seattle govt. TOOK $5M from the citizens of Seattle and THREW IT AWAY ON TOILETS!

      Until people wake up and realize when the govt spends money, it is your money!

    7. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bottom line.

      What a feeble-ass attempt to stay on-topic.

  15. Must Be A Consultant in there Somewhere by curmudgeon99 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How on earth did five toilets for $5 million get green-lighted? It must have been a consultant spending somebody else's money and with a fee to justify. How are the voters of Seattle going to reward that terrible waste? Just crazy. That's what's wrong with American right now--so many people willing to screw their fellow man if they can make a dollar off of it. Call it the American way (I would not) but it's killing us. We need to get some honesty and proportion back in our daily lives and business.

    1. Re:Must Be A Consultant in there Somewhere by The+Dancing+Panda · · Score: 1

      The outside of the toilets were going to be used for advertising space, and the money from that was going to the city, so to the city the toilets were an investment. It didn't end up working out as planned, obviously.

    2. Re:Must Be A Consultant in there Somewhere by stry_cat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Q: "How are the voters of Seattle going to reward that terrible waste?"

      A: By reelecting them in a landslide.

      No I don't understand why, but its pretty common all across America.

    3. Re:Must Be A Consultant in there Somewhere by dasunt · · Score: 1

      I'm trying to figure that out myself. Another poster also mentioned the yearly maintainance was $600,000, or $120k per toilet.

      What's the cost of renting out a small storefront, installing a restroom or two, and paying a janitor to rotate between two or three sites to clean the rooms during the busiest hours of the day/night?

    4. Re:Must Be A Consultant in there Somewhere by thermagen · · Score: 1

      I recently flushed my small software business out of Seattle, tired of the wasteful leadership and crappy taxes. Seattlites relish spending other people's money on silly social engineering experiments. I hope that one day they don't wake up to discover that jobs have fled and they are left without a pot to p--s in.

    5. Re:Must Be A Consultant in there Somewhere by mk2mark · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of the 3 consultants joke: 3 consultants go for a job, one's a Seattleite (for the sake of the joke), the other 2 are English and Irish, for no particular reason. The Seattleite quotes $1m, the English guy $2m, and the Irish guy an outrageous $5m. The contractor curious as to the inflated quote asks. The Irish guy calmly responds "I take $2m, you take $2m, and we give the job to the Seattliate.

    6. Re:Must Be A Consultant in there Somewhere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How on earth did five toilets for $5 million get green-lighted?

      Why it's bigger better government that is your daddy, mommy and big brother all rolled into one happy happy joy joy package!

      So vote Obama! He'll make it even bigger and even better, because, you see, the problem with government is that we don't have juuuuuuuust the right person in place yet. Obama will wave his magic wand across the arc of the moral universe, and all the endless thousands of bureaucrats and politicians will suddenly start working correctly!

      Oh Bama hey, Bama bama bama ho, bama hey, bama ho, baaaaamaaaaaaa.

      Der, I'm a leftist induhlectual! Derrrr!

      (Cue response claiming I'm a right wing religious kook because, hey, those that's the *only* *other* position in the universe!)

    7. Re:Must Be A Consultant in there Somewhere by curmudgeon99 · · Score: 1

      The Republicans controlled all three branches of government for 6 years (2000-2006) and yet they did not remove any of this alleged "big government" you refer to. Funny how you just fall into the lockstep of demonizing any Democrat. Just ridiculous. The Republicans offer us nothing except help for the rich and then they have a pat denial of any Democrat. The Republicans are friends of the rich and that is all. I'm sure the contractors who billed this money were Republicans.

    8. Re:Must Be A Consultant in there Somewhere by rjstanford · · Score: 1

      How on earth did five toilets for $5 million get green-lighted? It must have been a consultant spending somebody else's money and with a fee to justify.

      Because this was a pilot program. Many things are frightfully expensive if you only by one or two of them - you're paying a hugely non-amortized cost for design, tooling and other R&D. This is the source, btw, of most of the military "$50,000 toilet" jokes -- creating a full set of design specifications to allow you to build something from scratch is expensive. If you then only build 5 as a test run, and divide the cost out evenly, they look ridiculous. Once you buy 5,000, the effective cost per unit goes way down.

      --
      You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
    9. Re:Must Be A Consultant in there Somewhere by TimboJones · · Score: 1

      they are left without a pot to p--s in.

      Did you seriously just self-censor 'piss'? Ye gods, what do you do when you encounter real swears?

      I recently flushed my small software business out of Seattle

      This bit is funny though. Nice use of theme.

  16. Tragedy of the commons by frenchgates · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Seattle toilets are to drug users and prostitutes as the internet is to spammers and hackers. Discuss.

    --
    Syntax error: loose != lose, affect != effect, then!=than
    1. Re:Tragedy of the commons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Syntax error: loose != lose, affect != effect, then!=than

      and hacker != script kiddie

  17. Is this really a geek story? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I didn't think you could get more than 20 comments about talking about toilets. Seems I was wrong.

    1. Re:Is this really a geek story? by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 1
  18. I hear Google is offering a replacement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Google is offering the use of a new set of public gToilets in exchange for the ability to scan your waste for leftover products and potential diseases and then offer you contextual ads while you're in the unit.

    1. Re:I hear Google is offering a replacement by DaMoisture · · Score: 1

      Now that would be convenient. Let's say you're shooting a deuce and the gToiled detects THC. The relevant contextual ads can direct you to the nearest head shop, or maybe Taco Bell or something. For an extra quarter, Google Maps could give you walking directions to the nearest shady ally to possibly find drugs or get mugged!

    2. Re:I hear Google is offering a replacement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "You've got intestinal parasites! Since you're already in horrible shape, why not eat at McDonalds?"

      And oh god... those "enlarge your penis" ads are going to hit MUCH closer to home now that they've got actual data on girth.

    3. Re:I hear Google is offering a replacement by Lord+Ender · · Score: 4, Funny

      It appears there is blood in your waste.

      Shopping results for colon cancer:
      (did you mean inflamatory bowel disease?)

      • Buy colon cancer NOW on ebay!
      • Imitation colon cancer cheap!
      • Garaunteed lowest prices for cancer (google checkout)
      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    4. Re:I hear Google is offering a replacement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google is offering the use of a new set of public gToilets in exchange for the ability to scan your waste for leftover products and potential diseases and then offer you contextual ads while you're in the unit.

      Yes, this is an extension of the TiSP program. I hear they will offer 30 minutes of free wifi (supported by contextual popup ads) with each use.

    5. Re:I hear Google is offering a replacement by nacturation · · Score: 2, Funny

      Will they offer a stoolbar with an integrated poopup blocker?
       

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    6. Re:I hear Google is offering a replacement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me guess. It is in beta...

    7. Re:I hear Google is offering a replacement by blake3737 · · Score: 0

      "while you're in the unit" So if it's a unit by google, wouldn't it be the g-g-g-g-gUnit?

  19. People, I'm disappointed by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Such a unique chance for toilet humor and already pages and pages of replies but still nothing?

    What happened to the /. we all loved so much?

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:People, I'm disappointed by telchine · · Score: 1

      What happened to the /. we all loved so much?

      It's gone to pot!

  20. toilet homour by Smivs · · Score: 3, Funny

    So Seattle's authorities were flushed with success untill their 'Big Idea' went down the pan!

  21. It was their own fault by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    They need to have the toilet be able to give a shower or open the door automatically after a length of time. In particular, I would think that it should open up after 5 minutes UNLESS the person pushes a button within that timeframe.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:It was their own fault by Danse · · Score: 1

      They need to have the toilet be able to give a shower or open the door automatically after a length of time. In particular, I would think that it should open up after 5 minutes UNLESS the person pushes a button within that timeframe.

      Supposedly these things open automatically after 15 minutes with no chance to override. I don't see how having an override button would improve the situation. I guess people couldn't sleep in there too well, but drugs and prostitution would still be a problem.

      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    2. Re:It was their own fault by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      yeah, I missed that in one of the links. I thought it was interesting that these are working fairly decently in EU, but not here. Makes me wonder what we can improve.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  22. Like intentionally uncomfortable benches by TorKlingberg · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is like when they put up park benches that are intentionally made uncomfortable to sleep on. I understand why, but something is just wrong with society when that happens.

    1. Re:Like intentionally uncomfortable benches by Tom · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't understandy why, either - care to elaborate? What is wrong with society when it tries to make sure public stuff is used for the intended purpose?

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    2. Re:Like intentionally uncomfortable benches by imroy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because you're just pushing the problem somewhere else. The actual problem is homelessness; the homeless sleeping on park benches is just a symptom of the problem. The homeless obviously need somewhere to sleep. Making park benches uncomfortable to sleep on could (I imagine) make the homeless look somewhere else to sleep. Like people's front/backyards. It's the law of unintended consequences.

      What society should be doing it helping these people. You can't just treat them like pests and hope they go away. They're still people, they just don't have a home.

    3. Re:Like intentionally uncomfortable benches by oyenstikker · · Score: 1

      The intended purpose is to sit on, not to sleep overnight on.

      --
      The masses are the crack whores of religion.
    4. Re:Like intentionally uncomfortable benches by otis+wildflower · · Score: 1

      What society should be doing it helping these people. You can't just treat them like pests and hope they go away. They're still people, they just don't have a home.

      Let 'em eat California...

    5. Re:Like intentionally uncomfortable benches by jbburks · · Score: 1

      We should renovate some of the old industrial sites (far from downtown) or surplus military bases so that no one should have to sleep on the streets. There should be enough beds for everyone. When that's done, no one should be allowed to sleep on the streets or in the parks. Streets are for walking/driving. Parks are for recreation.

    6. Re:Like intentionally uncomfortable benches by Tom · · Score: 1

      Okay, that's an acceptable answer.

      However, I believe it is short-sighted. Is homelessness the problem? That assumes that it can be solved. I claim that it can not, like unemployment. You can reduce it, but not eliminate it. Economists know well that there is a certain level of unemployment that you will always have, because of people moving, changing jobs or careers, companies going bancrupt, or people simply having a job that nobody in the area needs. Even in a perfect economy, you'll have some unemployed people. They will likely find new jobs soon, but by then other people will be unemployed. I think the rate of "structural unemployment" is estimated to be between 0.5% and 1%.

      Back to topic: I think the same holds true for homelessness. There will always be someone without a home. He might be drunk, ill, crazy or simply lazy. For whatever reason, in a city of one or more million people, you will have some homeless ones. For various reasons, they also tend to accumulate in certain areas of the city. Usually the same ones where public spaces are (that might be one reason, though there's also a third variable linking the two).

      Anyways, "helping" is, like all things, subject to diminishing returns on investment. If you have 1000 homeless in your city today, maybe sum X will get half of them off the street. But it won't cost X again to get the other off the street. More likely, it'll cost X again to get half of the remaining half off the street, and so on, until you run out of money and still have homeless left. Maybe just 50. Massive improvement.

      Now, ignoring kind feelings and all, explain to me, taxpayer Joe Average, who already paid a whole lot to get those 950 homeless a shelter, why the remaining 50 still prevent me from using that bank, which I also paid for?

      There's always a line somewhere. The differences between various ethics is just where it's drawn and what reasons are given.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    7. Re:Like intentionally uncomfortable benches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What society should be doing it helping these people.

      Bullshit. I live downtown, their are homeless people, they always ask me for money, and when they do i talk to them. More than half of them are homeless because they are lazy fucks who dont give a shit.

      Their is a small percentage that WANT to improve, and their are already programs that exist to help them, and those people usually are off the streets in a week or 2.

      So the homeless people you see week-in week-out they probably just dont care, and dont want to improve. and if they arent gonna make the effort to stay sober, hold a job, and pay rent, then they dont deserve help.

    8. Re:Like intentionally uncomfortable benches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      That is the classic weasel American answer. You can't eradicate homelessness, so don't do anything.

      Homelessness CAN of course be eradicated. For instance, shoot all homeless people. Or give a bed to every homeless person, and use police force to move them to that bed (taking care of the mentally insane). That proves that you reasoning is wrong to start with.

      Now, cities building unsleepable benches are doing the wrong thing. People don't become homeless because there are benches. They use the benches because they are homeless.

      Your 'it cost X to get 500 out of the street', and 'more than X to get the remaining 500 out' is wrong too. The real reason for unsleepable benches is the race to the bottom we are in: one city don't want to be seen as some sort of homeless heaven, because it will just get the people from surrounding cities. Then, when all cities have unsleepable benches, they move to some additional stupidities (they are very creative about that in the city I live in). Hence, with the current mentality, you would use X to get 500 homeless out, and get 500 homeless from the neighborhoods to deal with at the same X price.

      Saying that it is not cost-efficient to deal with the homeless problem is ridiculous: a city like Seattle is just doing nothing (cost efficient), and, at the end, is now unable to get working public toilet. What kind of civilization is that?

      The crux of the issue is in your sentence: "Now, ignoring kind feelings and all, explain to me, taxpayer Joe Average, who already paid a whole lot to get those 950 homeless a shelter, why the remaining 50 still prevent me from using that bank, which I also paid for?"

      That is wrong on so many level. You act like if the only problem you have with the homeless is that they prevent you to use the bank. If you could use the bank, then there is ZERO reason for you to do anything for homeless people. THIS is the mindset that must change.

      Living in a society that allows homeless people to die on the street, and that builds unsleepable benches to make their life harder may not have a direct cost to you, but is something you should be ready to invest some money to change. You know, just because you are an evolved human. And because a society is judged on how it cares about its weakest members.

      People should stop to see every issue as a cost/benefit one, stop putting american flags everywhere, stop pretending to follow the bible and start to actually do the right things themselves or pay for others to do those for them.

    9. Re:Like intentionally uncomfortable benches by R2.0 · · Score: 1

      "Or give a bed to every homeless person, and use police force to move them to that bed (taking care of the mentally insane). That proves that you reasoning is wrong to start with."

      Actually, no, you can't do that. It's called false imprisonment - using police to arbitrarily limit your freedom of movement in unconstitutional. So, one can arrest the homeless for vagrancy, one can transport them to a bed, but the government CANNOT keep them from leaving without a court order.

      You actually hit on the real problem when you mention mental illness - some studies have shown that the vast majority of the chronically homeless are mentally ill. The problem is that, if they are not a danger to themselves or others, the law says they can't be detained. So you can give them a bed, meds, food, and shelter, but if they walk away, there isn't a thing you can do about it.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    10. Re:Like intentionally uncomfortable benches by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      The homeless problem is caused by a lot of things, and helping doesn't solve many of them. If you have a motivated person with some self-worth they aren't going to stay homeless for long. They will find a way.

      The problem is the people that are determined, one way or another, to fail at integrating into society. Sure, they might be homeless but they are also having other problems. Drugs. Psychiatric problems. Maybe they just distrust all authority so completely they cannot accept it in any form. You can't help these people much without forcing the help upon them. What do you do with the drug user that can't hold a job? About the only way to "help" them so the welfare money gets spent on rent is to confine them.

      We in the US used to confine these people. They were taken care of in a fairly respectable manner in most cases. "One Flew Over the Cookoo's Nest" is the outlier rather than the rule. In the 1970's it was deemed that all such facilities were abusive and denied the people their rights. So they were dumped on the streets with nowhere else to go. We now have a massive homeless problem where prior to 1970 we did not.

    11. Re:Like intentionally uncomfortable benches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      What society should be doing it helping these people. You can't just treat them like pests and hope they go away.

      Though not directly related to the war on drugs, I think it should be noted that certain problems CANNOT be solved because people don't want them solved. Take my point, the war on drugs, as an example. The users won't stop. The powers that be make too much money from it. We don't have the stomach to curtail demand by on-the-spot execution of repeat users (I'm thinking three instances of getting caught, and *BANG*, your dead - incinerated too to save graveyard space). Nothing short of summary execution of the users (start with Amy Winehouse) will put a dent in the problem. There are too many users to put in jail or allow through the standard death penalty process with years of appeals. Instead, we accept a problem that provides endless work for policemen, prison guards, prosecutors, defense lawyers, judges, doctors, rehabilitators, dealers, farmers, druglab techs, pharmacies, old people selling 'scipts to kids, prison builders, prison maintenance, cheap prison labor, and on and fucking on. There is so much f-ing money in drugs I think the street transactions are just the tip of the iceburg. What does this war entail? A steady stream of undesirables and junkies to move around and shuffle about like so many worthless pawns. You can't really take the homeless out of the equation when SOCIETY needs them to piss on. That's why we demonize the dealers and not the users. If you looked at the source of the problem, we may actual solve it. Not that I like the war on drugs, but if I was dictator and in charge of winning the war, then I give medals and accolades to the dealers and bullets in the head to the users.

    12. Re:Like intentionally uncomfortable benches by pablodiazgutierrez · · Score: 1

      Very true, but you can go one step further: Why don't they have homes? Wouldn't giving them a home be the equivalent of giving them fish? Why is it that in the richest country in the world so many people can't sustain a decent life? Is there a solution to this problem? Even harder, is there a solution to the problem that doesn't mean hindering the economic development of the rest of the society? I don't know the answers.

    13. Re:Like intentionally uncomfortable benches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Being from the Seattle area myself, I can say that there really isn't much of a homeless "problem." They exist, yes. They occasionally ask you for money, yeah. But if the cops would simply stop kicking them out from under the I-5 overpass at 7th and James, maybe they would continue sleeping, shitting and shooting up there, rather than in these ridiculous, overpriced toilets.

    14. Re:Like intentionally uncomfortable benches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What society should be doing it helping these people.

      No. What you should be doing, by your own moral code, is helping these people. Invoking "society" is an attempt for you to claim the mantle of morality (as an "advocate") so you can feel good, while the rest of us end up paying the bill for your feelings.

      Hint: there is no such entity as "society". There is just a collection of individuals, most of whom would like to make their own call on this issue, thanks. That's freedom. If you don't like it, hiding behind the invocation of "society" does not excuse you of your desire for the power to override that fact.

    15. Re:Like intentionally uncomfortable benches by Tom · · Score: 1

      That is the classic weasel American answer. You can't eradicate homelessness, so don't do anything.

      First, I'm not american. Second, the point wasn't to do nothing, the point was to not try the impossible - you have to stop somewhere because of limited ressources, and that "somewhere" will be well before the problem is "solved".

      Homelessness CAN of course be eradicated. For instance, shoot all homeless people.

      Agreed. I should have explicitly mentioned that I was speaking within the context of what society and laws allow us to do.

      That is wrong on so many level. You act like if the only problem you have with the homeless is that they prevent you to use the bank. If you could use the bank, then there is ZERO reason for you to do anything for homeless people. THIS is the mindset that must change.

      Agreed. There's a lot more about homeless people that bothers me than just them using a bench I'd rather use. The smell, for example, is horrible. For that reason alone, I'm quite happy that a reasonable part of my taxes is spent getting them off the street (and into a shower, preferably). I'm not happy at all with even a cent being spent on making living on the street any more comfortable. Be that benches or meals delivered. In fact, whoever delivers those meals to the homeless right in the city center is a crazy person. They should drop flyers there showing the way to the meal place, which is a little remote (within walking distance, but not right on fucking main street!).

      Please, if you can solve the homeless problem for a reasonable amount of money, I'm all ears. However, we part ways when you say "if we can't get them off the streets, we should at least make living there as comfortable as possible". No, no, no. We do not want to give them any incentives to stay homeless, on the contrary. It should be as hard as possible, and they should want to get away from that as much as possible. If they need help to do so - as I said, as long as it's for a reasonable price, I'm all for it.

      You know, our difference is funny.
      You say that I think "we can't solve it, so we should do nothing". Which, btw., I don't.
      I think that you think "we can't solve it, so we should invite it", well, a bit exaggerated.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    16. Re:Like intentionally uncomfortable benches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "One Flew Over the Cookoo's Nest" is the outlier rather than the rule.

      Really!!! I once had occasion to visit someone in such an institution -- in the 70s. I didn't see anything far different from what the movie depicted.

      Related to the topic: I once had to look for a nursing home for a my mother. She was being taken care of by a sister and a niece. Since we had to take out a conservatorship to handle her financial affairs, the courts got involved. They decided we had to have a Plan B, in case neither I nor my sister and niece would at some time be able to take care of her.

      That meant looking for a nursing home. Anything we could looked at was pretty well out of reach financially. In most cases, the base cost exceeded my annual gross pay.

      I had a particularly informative session with the social worker at my HMO. She emphasized the difficulty of finding a genuinely good situation. She told me about a facility where she attended a three-day educational session. It was bright, airy and didn't smell of urine or other odors that might have been expected. The atrium of the building even had an aviary with a number of small birds in it. There weren't a bunch of clients sitting in chairs in the halls, mumbling to themselves. On the surface, it was delightful. The social worker thought, "This place is beautiful. This is where I'd like to have Mom stay if she ever really needs constant care."

      Some time late during the second day, she wandered around to see the rest of the facility. It was then that she found the reason for the calm, peaceful atmosphere. As she passed by the rooms of the clients, she found they were nearly all under either physical or chemical restraints. They basically never got out of their rooms.

      Her final comment to me was, "If I'm in the business and it took that long for me to see what was really happening, how much harder do you think it will be for you?"

      One more example: I have a friend who is was the director of her county social agency. Her husband was pretty high up in HHS. Between them, they were unable to find an adequate place for their developmentally handicapped daughter.When they'd visit, they'd find her hair not recently washed. The daughter, now about thirty-five, had a colostomy and the bag was often found partially detached.The parents could yell and scream about inspections and lawsuits, but the attitude of the owners of the facility was, "Where else can you go and find better? Do you want to shut us down and push all the rest of the patients out on the street?" They knew goddamned well what they could get away with and just have the infractions graded by the government inspectors written off as mere "discrepancies". Even with all the access and information the parents' jobs provided, they were still unable to get humane care for their daughter.

      Finally, my mother-in-law was dying of breast cancer on the other side of the country. Her husband was in his eighties. Toward the end, she had to go to a nursing home. One day, as my sister-in-law approached her mother's room, she head her mother in great pain from being mishandled by one of the nurses. Instead of confronting the nurse, she went instead to the administration, thinking they would at least reprimand the nurse. Instead, on a subsequent visit, her mother told her that, in a later occurrence of rough handling, the nurse said to her, "So what are you going to do about it -- have your daughter tattle on me again?"

      My sister-in-law really had no where to turn at that point. Obviously the administration would do nothing meaningful. There was no reason at that point in moving to yet another facilty. In the end, fortunately, my mother-in-law succumbed to her cancer within just a couple of weeks following these events.

      If that isn't close enough to the movie, I have other similar stories from friends.

    17. Re:Like intentionally uncomfortable benches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I have a question about the best way to help the homeless. Im a young man living in Invercargill New Zealand population 50K. We really dont have a homeless problem etc like many big cities do. I realise in parts of Australia/America/Etc there are large parts of the city where the homeless have "taken over". What would you do to help these people?

      I'd imagine a lot of these people have mental illness. I know in my country that doctors clinics etc here are overloaded and underfunded, Id think that would be fairly common in a lot of countries. So you cant just send special police forces about to catch homeless people and dump them into a local doctors to be "helped" with drugs etc etc. Is this going to fix it?

      I lean slighty centre right when it comes to politics, I live in a very liberal country, and I realise that in my country we get all kinds of crazy stuff about helping the working poor etc etc. I myself am from a very poor family. But here we have this thing about benefits etc where it seems that many poorer people, but not homeless, get given all kinds of money, there are always tv ads that cost millions of dollars from taxes about preventing disease, getting regular cancer checkups etc etc etc.

      Do you think that very large publicly funded homeless shelters are the way forward? Large army barrack style places? (note, I hear that "a third" of american homeless are veterans?) And there would be soup kitchens open all hours of the day to feed these homeless? How do you get homeless people, in large groups, to move from being homeless to being poor but working to normal society? Im sure that people can become homeless and get past it. But how would it work for a large city with "a thousand" homeless people? You would have housing for "a thousand" people+ in the middle of the city? how much would that cost? What kind of jobs would they be put in? Homeless people getting jobs at the homeless shelter feeding soup to other homeless?

      Thank you for your time reading my message :) I am interested in your ideas, I just dont see how to best help homeless people.

    18. Re:Like intentionally uncomfortable benches by fbartho · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, why should I care about solving the homeless problem?

      --
      Gravity Sucks
  23. What drug use and prostitutes? by sckeener · · Score: 2

    From the article the issue was keeping the self-cleaning toilets clean...they got clogged with trash.

    The drug use and prostitution bit was a worry in the original article when they were being installed.

    --
    "Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
    1. Re:What drug use and prostitutes? by nbert · · Score: 1

      How did you get that impression?

      "But the city canceled its contract this spring after the commodes became filthy hide-outs for drug use and prostitution."

  24. New tag line by edittard · · Score: 5, Funny

    Slashdot - news of turds, stuff that splatters.

    --
    At the bottom of the /. main page it says 'Yesterday's News'. Well they got that right.
  25. This is such an anti-Republican move by seyyah · · Score: 2, Funny

    I mean, where are good honest Republicans like our men Larry Craig and Bob Allen going to go for a little dick?

    1. Re:This is such an anti-Republican move by NeuroManson · · Score: 1

      Back into the closet with Tom Cruise?

      --
      Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
  26. Prostitution in public toilets by FornaxChemica · · Score: 3, Funny

    Does that mean they just had sex there or that the ladies were actually soliciting the clients from inside the toilet room? And most important of all, were they dubbed "high-tech prostitutes" as a result? I wonder if there's any geek among the old profession who will be kind enough to provide the technical details...

    1. Re:Prostitution in public toilets by NeuroManson · · Score: 1

      I'd have to guess they now qualify as IT personnel.

      --
      Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
    2. Re:Prostitution in public toilets by TempeTerra · · Score: 1

      I wonder if there's any geek among the old profession who will be kind enough to provide the technical details...

      It's rude to assume that FORTRAN programmers frequent prostitutes, but I must admit I'm curious too.

      --
      .evom ton seod gis eht
  27. developing world shits on seattle by aeiah · · Score: 1

    the best toilet facilities ive ever seen were in El Alto, Bolivia (the really fast sprawlling city of breezeblock and redbrick that the poorer native bolivians live in above the country's capital capital, La Paz). every shop, cafe, doorstep market stall and telephone centre has a toilet you can use for pocket change. its a nice little earner on the side after all. there's more signs for toilets than anything else in that place. but anyway. are these seattle ones somehow different to the cylindrical cubicles (does that even make sense?) that i can pay 20p to use here in the uk, that shower themselves down when you step out? surely there's more to them than this, although quite why they didnt go with a few of these is confusing.

    1. Re:developing world shits on seattle by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      Lot of places in America have laws against pay toilets, so the "I am willing to pay to use a nice toilet" thing doesn't fly here. The closest thing you can do is try to limit your facilities to paying customers (assuming you're a business) but obviously this doesn't fly if you're a city.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    2. Re:developing world shits on seattle by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Lot of places in America have laws against pay toilets,

      Now that does astonish me. How on earth can the proponents of (probably) the most rabid capitalism on the planet defend closing down a market that turns shit into money? Oh, hang on, "lots of places". So it's probably just some batch of outdated laws in a few backwoods where pi is also equal to (int)3, and "brother" is genetically indistinguishable from "son".

      The closest thing you can do is try to limit your facilities to paying customers (assuming you're a business) but obviously this doesn't fly if you're a city.

      Turn off the lights and the water. Turn them on (from switches at the till/ cash register) when your suspect customer makes a purchase. The same switch might also reel-in the chain on the starving jaguar and turn on the steps. Or, if you've got a multi-floor premises, the escalator/ lift which you've got to have to allow wheelchair/ child buggy access.
      Of course, most places also have the toilets right at the back, where they're not immediately obvious from the street. By the time the toilet-user has spent 5 minutes looking for them, you've got enough CCTV footage to justify calling the police for "suspicious behaviour, like they're planning a shop lift or a burglary".
      Most of the time, a simple sign ("toilets are for paying customers only") is sufficient to promote compliance. And I can't recall having had the use of the toilets ever refused to me if I've asked, customer or no (but not all places have toilets, of course ; often it's an "arrangement" with a neighbouring house or shop which is detailed in the lease).

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  28. that's what starbucks is for by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Interesting

    and seattle, the home of starbucks, should have known that

    i'm dead serious. i live in midtown manhattan, and finding a toilet for a tourist, nevermind a resident, is near impossible were it not for a certain chain of coffee shops that monopolize every street corner. and they always have a restroom (unless they are those tiny stores), and those restrooms are open to the public without fail. there are some starbucks nearby subway entrances where if you go sit, you'll notice there is a regular stream of visitors... to the commode, and no one even pretends to want to buy a coffee

    you really have to understand what a blessing this is. it really is unique to starbucks: every other establishment, including mcdonalds and other fast food places, are usually hostile to making its restrooms available. but i guess coffee chases away vagrants, as the unstable and stinky always seem to congregate to mcdonalds for their restroom needs, bothering the grumbling manager behind the counter for a key rather than shuffling a few more steps around the corner to go to a keyless starbucks restroom. why the homeless do this, i don't know, but that is 100% true. habit? familiarity?

    i used to think the city made starbucks keep their restrooms open for this very reason, as it is such a huge boon in convenience for midtown visitors, workers, and residents. or perhaps a marketing droid at starbucks headquarters noticed a correlation between sales and restroom availability? who knows, but for a non-new york city resident, it is hard to understand what a blessing starbucks restrooms have been for the city

    whatever the reason for the mana from heaven of bum-free starbucks commodes in midtown, i'd like to thank starbucks with my very own original marketing slogan, they can use it free of charge:

    "if you are thinking of something steaming and brown, think starbucks in midtown" ;-)

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:that's what starbucks is for by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

      Thats interesting, because in Europe Starbucks(among many other places) are now locking the toilets with an electronic pinpad lock. If you buy something you get the code, but theoretically you have to buy something(though many just sneak in when others are entering/leaving or just find a receipt with the code)

    2. Re:that's what starbucks is for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember reading that New York was planning on adding some of these automated toilets. But then I read that they were only planning 20 for the whole city, and I just fail to see how having 20 public toilets in a city this size will accomplish anything.

    3. Re:that's what starbucks is for by retchdog · · Score: 1

      Gee, genius, maybe they're doing a preliminary survey to find out, in which neighborhoods these toilets will suffer the same fate as the ones in Seattle.

      --
      "They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
    4. Re:that's what starbucks is for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This might be a regional thing. You'll get the evil eye around here (Indianapolis) if you tried the same thing at a Starbucks. Then again

    5. Re:that's what starbucks is for by Al+Dimond · · Score: 1

      Believe me: if I need to use a toilet I can withstand an evil eye.

      FWIW, I've used Starbucks occasionally for restrooms, and once in St. Paul, MN, some friendly Starbucks employees let me look up a taxi dispatcher in their phone book. I don't drink coffee, but I'm very susceptible to impulse purchases of baked goods and drinks that aren't coffee. I could count the number of times I've entered a Starbucks with the intention of buying something on one hand, but I wind up incidentally buying muffins and stuff every now and then.

    6. Re:that's what starbucks is for by psydeshow · · Score: 1

      When in NYC, don't overlook Barnes & Noble bookstores for their clean, functional, and free restrooms.

      Typically they are located behind the children's books, which probably scares some number of homeless folks away (while encouraging others).

    7. Re:that's what starbucks is for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live in Berkeley. The Starbucks here do not have public restrooms. Bums on the west coast are considerably more persistent, apparently. Maybe it's the weather.

    8. Re:that's what starbucks is for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, in Seattle, all of the Starbucks (that I am aware of) require a key from the barista to use the bathroom. It's strange that NYC is different. Maybe tax breaks for free restrooms or something?

  29. I was victimized by drugs! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's the puritanical mindset of Americans that pushes these normal behaviors into the shadows and away from the help that the victims so desperately need.

    Drugs held them down against their will, that's why they're victims? Or doing drugs is normal?

    The Slacker Homeless in Vancouver are just lazy bums.

  30. Heroin (Hair-0N) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A drug in Seattle that was popular in high tech toilet parlors. Portland is bad enough.

  31. Seriously, who couldn't see this coming? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    $5M for 5 shit cans for the homeless (I've been a tourist in Seattle and had no problem using private toilets)? And $250k to restore the toilet sites to their previous state? Someone made a very stupid decision, and they need to be held accountable to taxpayers. This money should come out of their salary until the full sum is paid back.

  32. Cannot...resist....pun by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

    So would you say that the toilets where a SHITTY idea?

    *ducks to avoid tomatoes

    Please, no pineapples!

  33. Wal-Mart is almost as good as a race-track infield by Suzuran · · Score: 1

    Here in Illinois, it's like going on safari in some strange uncharted wilderness. You never know what you're going to encounter or how they will react to you, so you need to be stealthy and unobtrusive. The best specimens are rare and react badly to photography. I'm surprised National Geographic doesn't do a special on it.

  34. Works well in Berlin by yogibaer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The company that build them (WALL AG http://www.wall.de/ or their american subsidiary WALL USA) are operating close to a 100 of those in Berlin and they work fine. I do not know how they sold this service in Seattle, but three things they did in Berlin that could've solved some of the problems are: 1) The toilets are not free. 0.5 Euro per session. 2) They are financed through advertising with included billboards and everything, which also helps maintaining them, because everytime the posters are renewed (at least once week), they do necessary repair jobs. The newer models are networked for remote monitoring and maintenance. The latest models even include Interactive displays. 3) Doors open after 30 minutes, no matter what. In Berlin, Wall has pretty much revolutionized (and almonst monopolized) public installations like these, because they are doing a hell of a job designing "street furniture" as they call it. Public toilets before these were installed were anything from a nuisance to a biohazard and the cityscape drastially improved in most places through their work.

  35. Drug use and Prostitution are normal? by DesScorp · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "The public toilets getting abused is a sign of a much deeper problem. It's the puritanical mindset of Americans that pushes these normal behaviors into the shadows and away from the help that the victims so desperately need."

    That's a crock of BS. It's puritanical to expect people not to do really, really stupid things? Because heroin isn't exactly an unknown quantity. We've known that it's 100 percent addictive for, oh, centuries now. If you're a smack addict, you're not a victim. You did it to yourself. You know what's going to happen when you put that needle in your arm. You know because everyone else that's done it has ended up the same way.

    Prostitution is a little different, because sometimes prostitutes are victims. But many aren't. Many do it willingly and like it. Don't fool yourself on that.

    People like to hold up Las Vegas and Amsterdam as examples of tolerance, examples of how we can integrate drug users and prostitution into "normal" society (well, not drugs for Vegas, but hooking is legal there). And yet, after decades of "tolerance" they're busy dismantling the Red Light district in Amsterdam, chasing out the porn places with normal shops. They're tired of dirty needles and trash in their parks, and they're arresting and re-locating junkies. And in Vegas, they're kicking the hookers out of places formerly friendly to them. There are social costs involved with junkies and hookers that go beyond police protection, and even in the Netherlands, they've woken up to that fact.

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    1. Re:Drug use and Prostitution are normal? by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because heroin isn't exactly an unknown quantity. We've known that it's 100 percent addictive for, oh, centuries now.

      Except that heroin is not 100% addictive: perhaps more like 10% of heroin users are addicts. And it was first synthesized in 1874 and only became popular after it was independently re-synthesized 23 years later, and was marketed as a non-addictive morphine substitute until 1910 - its addictive nature has in fact been understood for less than a century.

      You know what's going to happen when you put that needle in your arm. You know because everyone else that's done it has ended up the same way.

      Yeah, you might end up like David Bowie or Keith Richards or hundreds of other famous musicians, actors, writers, artists who have used heroin...for those can afford their fix and have access to the pure stuff, heroin use or even addiction is not a big deal. It's less damaging to your body than addiction to cigarettes or alcohol.

      As Bill Hicks noted, "If you don't think drugs have done good things for us, then take all of your records, tapes and CDs and burn them. Cause you know what? The musicians that made all that great music that's enhanced your lives throughout the years? Real fucking high on drugs."

      Which is not to suggest anyone go shoot heroin. The crap you buy from typical street dealers is cut with gods-only-know-what and may well kill you; and really, there are better ways to spend your time and money.

      And yet, after decades of "tolerance" they're busy dismantling the Red Light district in Amsterdam

      Again, your facts are in error. The prostitution shops were only licensed in 2000, not "decades" ago. And they're shutting down owners believed to have criminal connections, not the entire district.

      I will recommend Peter McWilliams' book Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do: The Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in Our Free Country, available online at www.mcwilliams.com.

      Sadly, McWilliams became a victim of the War on (some) Drugs when his access to medical marijuana, used to treat symptoms of AIDS and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma was ended; forced to switch to the ineffective Marinol, he aspirated his own vomit and choked to death.

      The misinformation you are spreading is killing people. Please, cut it out.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    2. Re:Drug use and Prostitution are normal? by nsayer · · Score: 1

      sometimes prostitutes are victims

      Prostitutes aren't victims any more than car salesmen are victims. Women who are in an abusive relationship with someone else who are also prostitutes are victims, certainly, but then so are sweat-shop workers in other industries.

    3. Re:Drug use and Prostitution are normal? by bogjobber · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wow, you're completely misinformed. Somebody already covered the Amsterdam angle, so I'll go after Las Vegas.

      Prostitution is not legal in Las Vegas. It is legal in most of Nevada, and in most of Nevada it works quite well. The brothels are always away from the main part of the town, and they can't advertise so most tourists have no idea they are even there. They are clean and health inspectors make sure everything is on the up-and-up, which isn't always the case in Amsterdam. It's legal, so the women actually have recourse if they are abused or taken advantage of, which is pretty rare. What exactly is wrong with that?

      If that was the case in Las Vegas, you wouldn't see street walkers and illegal immigrants giving out ads for call girls everywhere. You wouldn't see advertisements littered everywhere, turning the whole city into a trash dump. If drugs were legalized and moved indoors, and controlled aggressively (like a few states control alcohol), you wouldn't see drug dealers on every corner of the strip and half of the city. People could do what they are going to do anyway in controlled, safe environments, and gang violence would drop dramatically. The police could actually work at preventing damage to lives and property, instead of arresting thousands of people for petty crimes.

      And what purpose do these laws actually serve? Do they stop people from using drugs or soliciting a prostitute? Obviously not, with the high rates of drug use that exist in this country and the ubiquity of prostitution everywhere (and if you don't think you can find drugs or prostitutes *everywhere* in the US you are sadly mistaken). They only serve to criminalize legitimate, if unappealing, behavior and turn what should be ordinary citizens into felons.

  36. How about the French solution? by vrmlguy · · Score: 1

    http://flickr.com/photos/tags/vespasiennes/
    Self-cleaning every time it rains.

    --
    Nothing for 6-digit uids?
  37. THAT'S a toilet? by DesScorp · · Score: 1

    Oh hell no. I'd go find an alley to piss in first. No way I'd use that thing. And what the hell do you do if you have to take a No. 2?

    Wait, this is Amsterdam. Probably use an alley.

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    1. Re:THAT'S a toilet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh hell no. I'd go find an alley to piss in first.

      And risk your life being effectively over if you are caught and become a registered sex offender.

  38. green-lighted by TheSHAD0W · · Score: 1

    How on earth did five toilets for $5 million get green-lighted?

    I guess Seattle's government is an easier crowd than Slashdot's moderators.

  39. Private - Public Toilets Grant by permaculture · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In Richmond, UK:

    http://www.richmond.gov.uk/home/transport_and_streets/road_and_pathway_maintenance/public_conveniences/community_toilet_scheme.htm

    the Local Council will give you an annual grant if your shop's staff toilet is opened to the public. To qualify, it has to be free for use, even for non-customers. Pubs which join the scheme have a notice put up outside.

    This is cheaper than opening separate public use toilets, and helps the shops and pubs keep their toilets funded.

    --
    Environmentalism is the new Victorianism. Everyone ties on a green corset and pretends we're virtuous.
  40. Re:Meanwhile, Probably 12 hours by car away... by Theoboley · · Score: 0

    Agreed, But in a small wal-mart in northern wisconsin they have signs stating that there is to be NO overnight RV camping... I wonder why that would be?

    --
    Stupidity only gets you so far, then you've gotta try
  41. Why "filthy?" by dpbsmith · · Score: 1

    I'm assuming the story means this in the literal, not the moral sense. It doesn't really explain why a "self-cleaning" toilet would become "filthy."

    It says vaguely that "trash" clogged "the self-cleaning" mechanism. What kind of trash, specifically? Anything that you wouldn't expect to get thrown in a toilet?

    Any traditional toilet would be able to handle (say) condoms, tampons, cigarate butts, baby wipes, etc.

    In other words, is a toilet of this kind really an insoluble problem, or were these specific toilets just defective products?

    1. Re:Why "filthy?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suspect this is a "This is why we can't have nice things" problem, not an engineering problem. Some people can really trash a bathroom.

    2. Re:Why "filthy?" by _Shad0w_ · · Score: 1

      Such as the guests of one of the companies we have to share our office building with; they're a job skills company that get people sent to them from the job centre next door - people who really don't want to be there.

      We actually have two sets of toilets with key coded doors, so we have some that at least aren't totally trashed.

      --

      Yeah, I had a sig once; I got bored of it.

  42. The government you deserve? by DesScorp · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Just gets better and better.

    Still, you get the government you deserve.

    Yeah, because it's so much better if you let the smack addicts do it anywhere.

    I"ve got my qualms with the so-called "war on drugs" too, but I get tired of people blaming things like junkies ruining public toilets on the government, when the fault lies with junkies ruining public toilets. Nobody made that asshole stick a needle in his arm. And unless the guy was born yesterday, I'm pretty sure he knew what he was getting into when he chose to stick that needle in his arm. Everyone pretty much knows what happens to you when you start shooting heroin. So can we have a moritorium on the poor-drug-victim bullshit, please? It's the rest of us that can't do things like, oh, use a public toilet that are the victims, not the junkie. He did this to himself. And if the "war on drugs" goes away tomorrow, and we open thousands of utopian "treatment centers", junkies are still going to do things like ruin public parks... because that's what junkies do.

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
  43. Cost aside... by DesScorp · · Score: 1

    That sucks, but this is how progress works. You can't know if something will pan out in advance, because there are too many variables.

    And if it had been a massive success, $5M would have been pocket change compared to the convenience and cost effectiveness of full automation.

    Setting aside the cost-benefit question for a second, the reason these toilets were "unsuccessful" has nothing to do with the toilets. From what I've read, they worked as advertised. The problem isn't technological, it's human, specifically the shady characters that monopolized the place. If "progress" wasn't achieved here, look to the lowlifes that ruined it for everyone else, not the product itself.

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
  44. Mayor McCheese by Trauma_Hound1 · · Score: 1

    Mayor Nichols and the Seattle City Counsel are notorious for making stupid decisions based on no evidence. Between the high taxes, and these WTF decisions, I moved out of Seattle.

    --
    Don't Vote for Norm Dicks! http://www.nodicks2008.com Another nutless dirtbag that voted for the FISA bill!
  45. You really have to ask? by DesScorp · · Score: 1

    This is like when they put up park benches that are intentionally made uncomfortable to sleep on. I understand why, but something is just wrong with society when that happens.

    Uh, maybe because it's a park, and not a hotel?

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
  46. just a guess... by commodoresloat · · Score: 2, Funny

    a friend of mine who for some reason unknown to me decided to roll a joint in there.

    Some unknown reason? Maybe he wanted to get high?

  47. In my travels... by Thelasko · · Score: 1

    I discovered that the best public toilet in the world, is the one in the Great Court, below the old reading room, at the British Museum, London, UK.

    --
    One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
  48. But if someone sleeps there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    at night when nobody wants to sit there, what have you lost?

    It doesn't wear out that quickly.

    1. Re:But if someone sleeps there by ergo98 · · Score: 1

      But if someone sleeps there at night when nobody wants to sit there, what have you lost?

      Aside from the possibility that someone might want to sit there at night, homelessness is frequently caused by psychiatric problems rather than economic problems. The guy who starts bedding on the bench at night will quite possibly develop a sense of ownership over the bench. Soon he has all his "stuff" crowding the bunch, and is aggressive to others who might want to use it.

      People aren't just trying to be jerks.

      The psychiatric angle to homelessness is why there is no easy fix for this, aside from sending out the nutter trucks and forcibly bringing them all to psychiatric hospitals. Which of course they did did in the not so distant past, but it went out of a favour.

  49. Over engineering by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 4, Interesting

    600.000 a year a piece?

    Now, what would it really have cost to have a toilet lady in a simple old fashioned public toilet who just cleanes the place, keeps an eye out on the area?

    But no, the public toilets are closed, the toilet ladies fired and people pee against building and then we spend years trying to find high-tech solutions.

    Say a single toilet lady makes 100k a year, a nice salary indeed for cleaning. That would have allowed 6 people to have a job, more then enough to keep one place staffed 24/7. No need for a 9/11 link or a 15 minute deadline.

    Really, there is such a thing as overthinking a problem.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Over engineering by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      The problem is who exactly do you hire as a "toilet lady"? Clearly the job isn't worth $100,000 a year and so nobody is really going to pay that. They might pay someone $30,000 and another $60,000 to a manager to oversee the worker. Unfortunately, the manager's job will really be to continously hire workers because the turnover will be high. Lots of money spent on properly advertising for the position in a non-discriminatory manner. Then you have to add in the taxes and other benefits. You now have spent closer to $250,000 a year on this.

      Sure, if you could hire someone to do the work properly you could pay them $50,000 a year (fully loaded it would be more like $75,000 in cost). But the truth is today, you can't hire that person.

      It is therefore cheaper and more efficient to figure out some way of not hiring the person at all. It leaves the government, lawyers and insurance companies out of the problem as well. You can't be sued by or on behalf of a non-existent employee.

    2. Re:Over engineering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If no one will do the work for less than $100k, and the alternative is buying a $5 million auto-toilet with $600k yearly maintenance, why wouldn't you hire someone to do it for 100k?

    3. Re:Over engineering by RealGrouchy · · Score: 1

      Now, what would it really have cost to have a toilet lady...?

      Yeah, but who wants to go for a shit to the constant sound of "Clean yes, germs no"?

      - RG>

      --
      Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
  50. Um, your house? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Way too easy, man.

  51. Well, I can guess being dutch by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1

    AND the dutch toilets are NOT accesibale by the handicapped, this is a legal requirement in the US.

    The US seems to have a lot of laws that were introduced to counter a wrong but then go to far because the wrong was ignored for to long. The pendulum in the US swings to extremes.

    Nonetheless, these public toilets HAD to be accesible by the handicapped, that made them large enough to be used for other puproses and voila, you have a problem.

    Of course, the solution, is terrible simple. Put down a small building with 5 regular toilets, some urninals and an extra large stall and use the money saved to employ half a dozen people to clean them and keep an eye out.

    No waiting lines, cleaners who can deal with anything, human supervision, first aid post etc etc. It is easy, it has been tried and tested and we just can't seem to get it. Because goverment salaries have to be cut, you can't cut management, so you cut toilet ladies and then spend a fortune on all kinds of counter measures to people pissing against buildings.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  52. A UK solution by mikael · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Business owners across the city have been forced to figure out ways to keep drug users and others out of their bathrooms while keeping the toilets open to customers.

    One UK town had that problem with drug users. There was a simple solution - they noticed that some restrooms had no problems with druggies even though there was the same population, same level of cleaning and security. The only difference was that the restroom had some rather cheap fluorescent lights of a single light wavelength. While this was adequate for basic hygiene and safety, it made it impossible for drug users to see their veins in order to use needles. As a consequence, they would avoid that particular restroom.

    --
    Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    1. Re:A UK solution by LanceUppercut · · Score: 1

      "Single light wavelength"? You mean it was a monochrome light, pure spectral color? That would be an experience... Which color was it?

    2. Re:A UK solution by richard.cs · · Score: 1

      In Boscombe (and possibly other parts of Bournemouth) they have blue lights but I'm pretty sure they're not monochromatic. If you want that then bog standard low pressure sodium streetlights (the yellow ones) emit two wavelengths about 0.6 nm apart.

    3. Re:A UK solution by mikael · · Score: 1

      Yes, it was pure nightclub neon blue - I managed to find the news article with a picture:

      Neon blue restrooms. It makes the star-trek themed apartment seem relaxing...

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
  53. Getting rid of the toilet is like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    fixing a broken window: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_window_theory

    And Seattle knows about this very well: http://www.seattle.gov/police/prevention/Neighborhood/brokenwindow.htm

  54. Automatic toilets by Animats · · Score: 2, Informative

    San Francisco has similar toilets, from JCDecaux. They're ad-supported, plus most of them charge money. JCDecaux, not the city, services them, and they do a relatively good job, which they have to do to keep the advertising contract. The San Francisco experience is that they work fine in the tourist areas and need too much maintenance in the homeless areas. SF gives homeless people a free token; it opens the toilet like coins, but the token comes back out the coin return.

    Part of the problem was the insistence that they be wheelchair accessible. JCDeaux installs a smaller version in Paris, which takes up less space on the street (it will fit on most sidewalks), and isn't big enough for prostitution, drug dealing, or sleeping. But in the US, they're forced to install the big model, which is about the size of a parking space.

    Palo Alto has two units. Theirs take credit cards. Really.

    These things are far more expensive than they should be, costing about $1,000,000 each over 5 years. There's no good reason these things should cost far more than an SUV, but they do. I've seen the mechanism being serviced. It's put together from stock Telemechanique industrial automation components, which is reliable but is designed for one-off applications. If you built a washing machine that way, it would cost about $20,000. These things are engineered like prototypes. They need to be re-engineered for volume production and the cost brought down to under $50,000.

  55. Re:Meanwhile, Probably 12 hours by car away... by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

    Hmm. Interesting.

    At Canadian Wal-Marts near Banff and Jasper National Parks, there were quite a few RVs in the parking lot last time I was there (Early 2000s), and I have seen RVs quite a few times in the Wal-Mart parking lot in Vestal, NY.

    http://www.freecampgrounds.com/othercamps.html says that Wal-Mart corporate encourages RVers to report such signage to them, as it directly conflicts with company policy.

    From another article: "Unless managers decide to yank the welcome mat, or local ordinances prohibit overnight parking, the lots are open to RVs." - So your town could have a local law against overnight parking.

    --
    retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
  56. I used one of these once when I was in Seattle.. by spiffmastercow · · Score: 1

    I'd say the main problem was the automated voice while you're trying to take a shit.

  57. The problem wasn't the toilets by PhilipPeake · · Score: 2, Informative

    There was nothing at all wrong with the toilets it appears, but a more serious problem with the denizens of Seattle.

    The versions in use in Paris work just fine, and have worked so for close to 20 years. Initially there was a (small) problem with people spending too long in there (for whatever reason), but a simple change to the software to open the doors after a reasonable amount of time to do what these were intended for fixed that problem.

    The only other adjustment that was made was to reduce the sensitivity of the pressure sensor in the floor so that it registered small children - this after a dumb parent ignored the sign saying that children under 5 had to be accompanied by an adult, the toilet thought it was empty, and began its cleaning cycle.

  58. They were not "Human" by coryking · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If I designed them, I'd do two things:

    1) I'd sell advertising on the side
    2) I'd charge $0.25 for 15 minutes (with no ability to add $0.25 from inside).

    Seriously, if you godda drop a duce, are you gonna use a free bathroom, or are you gonna beg borrow and steat a quarter to go to a pay restroom? Now imagine your wife.

    Keep in mind these are all psychological, not "real". People will perceive the pay-restroom to be higher quality, better maintained (even if it isn't), and more sanitary.

    Adding advertising makes it blend in with the fabric of the street. Right now, those damn things look like space age robots--very imposing.

    1. Re:They were not "Human" by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1

      Or, instead of advertising, put murals on them from artists in the area.

    2. Re:They were not "Human" by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      In many areas you'd get 'murals' from local artists in the area very quickly anyways... ;)

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    3. Re:They were not "Human" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if you godda drop a duce, are you gonna use a free bathroom, or are you gonna beg borrow and steat a quarter to go to a pay restroom? .

      I thought a meathook was traditional?

  59. How a bureaucracy handles problems like this. by suck_burners_rice · · Score: 1

    I think Seattle made a mistake. No, the mistake isn't spending five million buckazoids on a few lousy toilets. After all, it is the purpose and mission statement of government to spend too much money on crap like this. And when the crap they spent tons of money on turns out to be a bad decision, they should spend even more money on even more crap to compensate for the problem, eventually building an entire bureaucracy around solving a problem that never needed to exist in the first place. So when the toilets became hangouts for crime, they should have hired security guards to stand outside the toilets to charge a security deposit and then check after each user that nothing has been damaged or vandalized before refunding it. This could be streamlined with the use of special toilet cards that you could apply for for a low annual fee of only $29. The card could be scanned upon your entering and leaving the toilet. Lost cards cost $19 to replace. Because all of this would be unfair for the criminals, they should build a structure near each toilet where crimes can be committed, in order to leave the toilets free for public use.

    --
    McCain/Palin '08. Now THAT's hope and change!
  60. Wait a second... by DesScorp · · Score: 1

    "The misinformation you are spreading is killing people. Please, cut it out"

    You're defending the virtues of heroin use, and I'm killing people? Did you write that with a straight face?

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    1. Re:Wait a second... by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're defending the virtues of heroin use, and I'm killing people? Did you write that with a straight face?

      "Virtures"? No. I said "and really, there are better ways to spend your time and money." That's hardly calling heroin use a virtue.

      The use of clean heroin of known strength and purity is rather safe. Stupid - really, really fscking stupid - but safe. A heroin addict using the "good" stuff does much, much less damage to their body than a heavy drinker or a typical cigarette smoker.

      The use of adulterated heroin of unknown purity, often using shared needles, is dangerous. People do it because they can't get clean heroin of known strength and purity. They can't get it because it's banned. It's banned because of misinformation like what you are spreading.

      Furthermore, the prohibition creates a violent black market, which fuels a great deal of violent crime.

      So, yes. When you spread lies about drugs and work toward their prohibition, you are killing people. You have a small share of responsibility for every junkie who dies from a dirty needle or from bad smack, and for every kid shot in a drug deal gone bad, because you helped create the circumstances of their deaths.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    2. Re:Wait a second... by marxmarv · · Score: 1

      Tom has facts. You have small-minded moral outrage. Your currency doesn't spend here.

      --
      /. -- the Free Republic of technology.
    3. Re:Wait a second... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >You have small-minded moral outrage. Your currency doesn't spend here.

      You must be reading a different slashdot than the rest of us. Are you perhaps on heroin?

    4. Re:Wait a second... by marxmarv · · Score: 1

      Middle-minded moral outrage is slashdot's stock in trade. Middle-minded moral outrage may fail on philosophy and consistency but usually gets the facts mostly in order. My beer's getting flat; message me if you need more help.

      --
      /. -- the Free Republic of technology.
  61. Would have worked better in Portland, OR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seattle put too much trust in the ethics and morality of its citizens.

    "Serve the state, Caligula, though the people in it are wicked beasts." -Tiberius Caesar

  62. Monorail, monorail, monorail! by 200_success · · Score: 1

    If Seattle can afford a monorail, surely they can afford to maintain public toilets!

    1. Re:Monorail, monorail, monorail! by faedle · · Score: 1

      Only Seattle could spend $250 million and NOT build a monorail.

  63. Re:Meanwhile, Probably 12 hours by car away... by UncleTogie · · Score: 1

    But in a small wal-mart in northern wisconsin they have signs stating that there is to be NO overnight RV camping... I wonder why that would be?

    If you remember what cousin Bubba Joe did at the wedding, you'd not want his RV within 5 miles of you, either...

    --
    Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
  64. People are people, not consumers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and, even downtown, people have to piss.

    I used to catch an early morning bus into town to catch a bus out of town the other direction for my DBA job. When one of the inner city malls closed its bathroom because it was encouraging the homeless to wash up, probably one of the boldest acts of civil disobedience I've done was find their office front door and piss on that since the building itself was still open.

    Figuring I might not be welcome in that tower again, I got more observant of where to piss and began noticing when and where other people were pissing. I guess city councilmen have their priorities. If they would rather their downtown smelled like piss than risk somebody getting a blow job I suppose that is in their power to choose.

  65. Low-Tech Wins by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Personally, I was impressed by the public facilities I encountered in parts of Europe back in the 80s. Straightforward facilities with an attendant. The attendant typically sat at a table outside the facility when not actively engaged in cleaning it and had a plate for payment / tips. It was never clear to me whether the attendants received a base wage or just lived on tips, but they certainly seemed motivated to keep things clean. The facilities were always in good condition.

    Such a system would seem to have a lot going for it. It provides some minimum-wage type employment. It provides high-quality public facilities. Unreasonable usage is obviously discouraged while, at the same time, attendants have discretion to serve the poor or unfortunate lacking in pocket change.

  66. the toilets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am amazed at the intelligence on this board. Yes, we have a severe problem in the USA. Government corruption, corporate greed, and general dishonesty among the population has led us into third-world territory.
    And it makes me sad.
    I seriously consider moving to another country, but am nervous because I am not sure what I would do there.

    Know of anyone who needs a good technician? :-)

    You all take care out there.
    -DWN2DV8

  67. Don't count out McDonald's by R2.0 · · Score: 1

    My wife says that the real purpose of McDonalds is to provide a clean place to go potty (if you have kids, the lingo sort of sticks) within 10 minutes on any highway in America. And if anyone here remembers the condition of highway rest stops in the past, you will understand why she is so appreciative.

    --
    "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
  68. Theft? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    vandalism and theft put them out of business

    Theft? Who the hell would steal a public toilet?

    ...addressing homelessness with affordable housing and decent health care - not by encouraging people to piss in the alley.

    I'm (glad to be) Swedish. We don't have many homeless people per capita (probably in the order of tenths of times less than that of the US).
    However, I don't know anyone who have used a public toilet. They are just absolutely disgusting. You go into a shopping mall or cafe or such.
    Could be that we don't maintain the public toilets, and therefore they stink, or that the demand isn't that big. I dunno.

    I just don't think that homelessness or a health care worth its name would fix this. I'm sorry, but I think it has to do with how people think about others, and respect their fellow citizens. If you don't care that someone might risk stepping in your crap, while taking a dump at the sidewalk, you'll just take that dump. It has to do with respect for others.

    Sure, homelessness, failing health care, big crime problems, prostitution - all due to social issues - would just add to the problem. Of course.

  69. Use attendants by belmolis · · Score: 1

    I suspect that a better solution is to set up nice, multi-user bathrooms with an attendant. The attendant will keep out the drug users and prostitutes, keep the place clean, and call for maintenance when necessary. Sure, an attendant costs money, but it is probably cheaper than the maintenance and amortization on high-tech bathrooms like this.

  70. Oh, not just the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In Toronto "the Good" I lived in one of the concrete towers in the late eighties. It wasn't cheap, merely affordable and available in the chronic housing shortage they have. The tenants actually dumped their garbage on the floor in front of the shute. Enormous roach-covered piles that nobody wanted to go near, never mind try to reach over, so the pile expanded rapidly. It was unbelievable insane and never solved. Every floor of about a 20 floor tower.

  71. been there done that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    I live in Seattle and work 2 blocks from one of those toilets. I never used the thing. It is about a 20 minute wait to get in one and they are installed in the highest populated 'homeless camp public parks'. Seattle does have a lot of homeless. I live in Seattle about 5 miles north of dowtown. Just outside of my neighborhood we have 1 guy who has lived on the porch of a state gov't building for over 2 years. Plus 2 people living in a van just outside our window and yesterday I spotted a guy in our carport eating some old meat loaf out of the dumpster. This is in a neighborhood where a house costs about $500K.

  72. Make it legal to treat them like puppies. by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

    If any random citizen was legally allowed to beat 'the shit out of them' them rub their noses in the shit they would soon find more responsible places to crap.

    No jail costs, no public toilet costs, homeless attitudes improved. It's a win for everyone that matters.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    1. Re:Make it legal to treat them like puppies. by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

      If any random citizen was legally allowed to beat 'the shit out of them' them rub their noses in the shit they would soon find more responsible places to crap.

      Like where?

      When you are in a city, and have no access to public restrooms, where is a more responsible place to defecate than in an alley? A vacant lot, perhaps? (If you can find one.) There's a big improvement.

      I also wonder of you're willing to apply your "random citizens get to beat the crap out of you" to anyone who commits a minor crime, or if you just think that the homeless are sub-human and so deserve to be beaten?

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    2. Re:Make it legal to treat them like puppies. by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Only those that crap or piss in public.

      Initial beatings should be with a rolled up newspaper. Face rubbing required.

      The basic problem is these jackasses think it's OK to dump (literally) their lives consequences on everybody else. They need to live in the mess they make until they decide to not do it anymore or die. Ether way is fine by me.

      I'd ship them to the middle of a dry county in godforesaken Utah. As a practical matter liberal enclaves are attracting them with gold plated homeless services so basically no problem for me (beyond telling the occasional panhandler to 'get a job you parasite').

      As to where? The homeless shelter? Perhaps a shower and a cleanup will also improve their odds of using toilets at other public places.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    3. Re:Make it legal to treat them like puppies. by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

      As to where? The homeless shelter?

      And those who live where there are no shelters, or where shelters are out of space?

      Estimates of the homeless population in Baltimore range from 3,000 to 30,000. Emergency and short-term shelters have about 2,260 beds.

      As a practical matter liberal enclaves are attracting them with gold plated homeless services so basically no problem for me (beyond telling the occasional panhandler to 'get a job you parasite').

      That's certainly helpful. Do you also go around the cancer wards telling people, "get up, walk it off, you wimp"?

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
  73. Douglas Adams' "Mostly Harmless" Chapter 11 by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

    While the systems were being installed, a number of people who were going to work in the buildings found themselves having conversations with Breathe-o-Smart systems fitters which went something like this:

    'But what if we want to have the windows open?'

    'You won't want to have the windows open with new Breathe-o-Smart.'

    'Yes but supposing we just wanted to have them open for a little bit?'

    'You won't want to have them open even for a little bit. The new Breathe-o-Smart system will see to that.'

    'Hmmm.'

    'Enjoy Breathe-o-Smart!'

    'OK, so what if the Breathe-o-Smart breaks down or goes wrong or something?'

    'Ah! One of the smartest features of the Breathe-o-Smart is that it cannot possibly go wrong. So. No worries on that score. Enjoy your breathing now, and have a nice day.'

    [...]

    Major heat waves started to coincide, with almost magical precision, with major failures of the Breathe-o-Smart systems. To begin with this merely caused simmering resentment and only a few deaths from asphyxiation.

    The real horror erupted on the day that three events happened simultaneously. The first event was that Breathe-o-Smart Inc. issued a statement to the effect that best results were achieved by using their systems in temperate climates.

    The second event was the breakdown of a Breathe-o-Smart system on a particularly hot and humid day with the resulting evacuation of many hundreds of office staff into the street where they met the third event, which was a rampaging mob of long-distance telephone operators who had got so twisted with having to say, all day and every day, 'Thank you for using BS&S' to every single idiot who picked up a phone that they had finally taken to the streets with trash cans, megaphones and rifles.

    In the ensuing days of carnage every single window in the city, rocket-proof or not, was smashed, usually to accompanying cries of 'Get off the line, asshole! I don't care what number you want, what extension you're calling from. Go and stick a firework up your bottom! Yeeehaah! Hoo Hoo Hoo! Velooooom! Squawk!' and a variety of other animal noises that they didn't get a chance to practice in the normal line of their work.

    As a result of this, all telephone operators were granted a constitutional right to say 'Use BS&S and die!' at least once an hour when answering the phone and all office buildings were required to have windows that opened, even if only a little bit.

    Another, unexpected result was a dramatic lowering of the suicide rate. All sorts of stressed and rising executives who had been forced, during the dark days of the Breathe-o-Smart tyranny, to jump in front of trains or stab themselves, could now just clamber out on to their own window ledges and leap off at their leisure. What frequently happened, though, was that in the moment or two they had to look around and gather their thoughts they would suddenly discover that all they had really needed was a breath of air and a fresh perspective on things, and maybe also a farm on which they could keep a few sheep.

    --
    Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
  74. Try Europe for homeless folk.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where they happily claim that there are no homeless people in their cities.

    Then, when you point out homeless people sleeping in alleys, they say "oh, but they're gypsies." You know, because foreigners, especially gypsies, don't count.

    1. Re:Try Europe for homeless folk.. by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 1

      My wife's career involves providing assistance to the homeless, originally in the UK. We now live in the US. While there is homeless in Europe and the UK, they have more reliable access to services. The kind of situation you situation you see in US cities isn't tolerated.