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China Blocks iTunes
eldavojohn writes "If you like iTunes and you are one of the billion people residing in China, you may have noticed that you no longer have access to the eight million songs on it. An album, 'Songs for Tibet' was downloaded more than 40 times by Olympic athletes as a sign of solidarity for Tibet's cause. Ironically, this compilation had songs criticizing the 'Great Firewall of China,' and that is the very thing that prohibited these songs from reaching the Chinese public. Artists on the compilation include Alanis Morissette, Garbage, Imogen Heap, Moby, Sting, Suzanne Vega, Underworld and others."
Additional coverage is available at Computerworld. Earlier this year, China blocked Youtube and other video services for similar reasons. More recently, the Chinese government detained a technologist who planned a pro-Tibet demonstration.
One day China's great firewall will block itself because it includes word "tibet" in it's blocking rules.
Blocking an album containing Alanis Morissette, Garbage, Moby and Sting is probably preventing human rights violations as much as it contributes to them. Isn't that ironic?
Shouldn't that be "China Blocks iTunes Store"? What is this, Internet News by Joe Sixpack?
We ban child porn and bomb making instructions, they ban bad music that criticizes the government.
If anything they should be consistent and just ban bad music.
How is it our place to criticize them? A country should be able to make decisions about what ideas it tolerates within its borders. Not all countries will make the same decision.
Not everyone agrees with us enlightened, progressive, "free" Westerners. Get over it and get over yourselves. There's no scientific proof that our way is the universal right!
Anti-Globalism, Traditionalism, and FreeBSD.
"It seems like suspending iTunes is punishment for iTunes, but really it doesn't hurt iTunes, it hurts us," said a note on Chinese Apple fan site macfans.com.cn, according to the AP.
Do Chinese leaders actually think what they are doing punishes iTunes? Mayhaps, a more devious conclusion; like the applications to protest in the "authorized protest zone", they are trying to incite outrage among hidden dissidents to... strengthen their unpaid labor force.
Or maybe its just the technologically incompetent trying to rule the unruly propaganda machine that is technology with an iron (outdated; see steel) fist. Or both?
+0 Funny until logic like that becomes commonplace
You cannot truly appreciate Dilbert until you read it in the original Klingon.
Yes, you can access slashdot from China. In fact, I'm sitting at a computer in one of Shanghai's suburban neighborhoods. You're jumping to some pretty big conclusions there. A lot of the Western media covering Chinese affairs do nothing but criticize. I'm not saying they shouldn't criticize, but it really leaves Westerners with the impression that the Chinese government is so cruel and harsh that all the citizens are living in fear. Um, no. We really aren't that affected at all, and I can say (because yes, I have lived in the US and Australia) that life here is no different, except for the annoying fact that I can't access Freewebs.
No comment available.
Can you even access slashdot from within China?
I am not sure but a chinese guy in my team (I live in Australia) was browsing something which was obviously slashdot: same colors, layout, software etc but in chinese. I said to him hey thats slashdot and he said whats slashdot?.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Slash, the code that runs Slashdot, is open source and freely available - http://www.slashcode.com/ - there are lots of sites that bear more than a passing resemblance to Slashdot simply because the codebase is the same.
http://twitter.com/onion2k
Slash, the code that runs Slashdot, is open source and freely available - http://www.slashcode.com/ - there are lots of sites that bear more than a passing resemblance to Slashdot simply because the codebase is the same.
Yeah but I think sourceforge own the look and feel. I believe there was once a slashdot in spain but I can't find it now. The slashdot page on wikipedia has a link to a japanese slashdot.
I think somebody has ripped off the L&F for their own site in China. Wouldn't be the first time.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
That will send a strong message to the chinese leaders, a country with over a billion people in a world of 6 billion people and a olympic event involving hundreds if not thousands of athletes and their support staff. 40 downloads.
Guess that shows just how much athletes really care about peace and such.
Did I download it? No, but then I don't try to pretend that my sporting event is anything else then an ego trip to prove I am better then everyone else.
Frankly, the truth is nobody really cares about Tibet. Oh we might buy the t-shirt but we also buy t-shirts with the logo of a soda brand or whatever band the music industry pushed on us.
Show me an athlete who refuses his medal to make a point and then I might think the olympics are any different from the soccer world championship.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
slashdot in spain
http://barrapunto.com/ I believe the title literally translates to "Slashdot"
.
I am also reading /. and I am in Beijing, there is now way they would ever block access to sl
http://barrapunto.com/ I believe the title literally translates to "Slashdot"
And hey, if you Google translate barrapunto.com from Spanish to English, it's more better grammar, too!
http://translate.google.ca/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fbarrapunto.com%2F&sl=es&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
[17] Leary, T., White, C., Wood, P. R., Bhabha, W. D., and Wirth, N. Lambda calculus considered harmful. In Proceedings
Ok, that answers the question - thanks.
Maybe, but China's history of human rights abuses speaks for itself. I guess for pointing that out I deserve to be modded a troll, thanks for that moderators. Frankly, it makes me angry, because oppression of any people in any country provides lessons to oppress people anywhere.
Hmmm, I remember videos and reports of the Chinese government running over one of their own citizens with a tank. And more recently allegations of organ harvesting from Falon Gong members. So perhaps it's not fear more an imposed state of apathy, where it's extremely uncomfortable to talk about things the government doesn't want people to talk about. Tibet, Taiwan. Threatening two old ladies to 'hard labour re-education' because they *wanted* to protest reinforces the perceptions that the Chinese government is actually all that it's critics say it is. The emperor has no clothes.
Great. Does that mean you a Chinese citizen? I'm free to say what I want and, yes, I'll defend your right to disagree with me, but I doubt that the same attitude is even vaguely present in China. I'm not having a go at you personally but I stand by my original "troll".
Because if it wasn't true then why would the Chinese government even need a 'Great Firewall of China'.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
begin boycotting all things china.
... and grow up.
maybe they'll figure it out eventually
Maybe, but China's history of human rights abuses speaks for itself.
If its history we're talking about, then what about America's history of human rights abuse (slave trade anyone?), or the UK (slaves again, plus that whole empire thing, and navvies).
In fact almost all western countries have just as bad a record as China, only for us a lot of it is in the past. for the US that past isn't too far back, we are in fact talking just decades since the 'not slaves any more honest' were fully accorded the rights they were promised by Lincoln.
Not that I don't like America, I do, its just that I don't hide from the truth of things.
So, check your history before declaring China to be the fount of all that is wrong in the world.
A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
Soo... I hate to say it (err, okay, that's a lie, i love pointing these out!), but china blocking a song protesting china blocking things isn't irony! It's just not!
Irony is (roughly) when something happens that is the opposite of what expected... but if you criticize a tyrant... you can expect to get censored!
-Taylor
Worldwide Military budgets: $2100 billion. Worldwide Space Exploration budgets: $38 billion. Really, world? Really?
"I remember videos and reports of the Chinese government running over one of their own citizens with a tank" - Apparently you don't remember it very well, as no one got run over in that particular infamous incident.
If China is taking moral cues from how Imperial powers acted in the 19th century and before then yes, we have a problem.
Interestingly, no one seems to know much about how the slave trade was ended, in large part due to the efforts of Britain after we decided to abolish it.
I think as soon as the "Songs for Tibet" album was taken off the frontpage, it was allowed back.
Seriously, I'm in China and iTunes Store is all fine for me. Get a life.
2008 is shaping up as the year's coldest twenty-first century
Slashdot commented upon in the year 2008 will be the coldest this century, according to data supplied by the British Meteorological Office, due to the climatic phenomenon of "girls" that cools the waters of the Pacific Ocean.
Kickass, so according to the Google translation of Spanish... all we need are more girls, and the planet wont get hotter?...huh... it would be a climactic phenomenon though...
The difference is not that the United States has made no mistakes- it's made some pretty awful ones. The difference is that when society feels that these mistakes need to be corrected, the government sooner or later has to respond, because citizens are free to voice their opinions and influence the debate. That happened with the abolition of slavery, and that happened again with the civil rights movement. Elements of the government did try to fight the civil rights movement, but ultimately Martin Luther King was not sent off to a labor camp for re-education. That meant he was able to keep speaking out to persuade our society and our government to try to do the right thing.
Many young people haven't been well versed in the Western romanticism of Communist China, though recently Obama did idealize China's transportation infrastructure in a effort to promote investment in our own. I recommend the The Nine Commentaries on the Communist Party. The difference in our cultures is a real eye opener.
If its history we're talking about, then what about America's history of human rights abuse (slave trade anyone?), or the UK (slaves again, plus that whole empire thing, and navvies).
That America and that UK no longer exist. All of the people that comprised them are dead. Most modern citizens and government representatives strongly condemn these past actions.
Compare that to modern day China, where the people responsible for Tienanmen are still in power.
for the US that past isn't too far back, we are in fact talking just decades since the 'not slaves any more honest' were fully accorded the rights they were promised by Lincoln.
But no matter the behavior of the US, it doesn't excuse China's behavior. The US continues to have major racial problems, but that doesn't mean that China shouldn't be held accountable for THEIR human rights abuses. We should be working for human rights in BOTH places, not giving up on China because the US isn't perfect yet.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
I object to ALL human rights abuses. As it stands the subject of *this* conversation and *this* Olympics is China's human right's abuses.
I'm well versed in the human rights abuses of Western countries, thank you very much. I did have an open mind on China during the lead up to the Olympics, but as I learned more it's evident that China has a record of human rights abuses at least as bad as western countries.
Oppression is a trans-national phenomenon that must be challenged wherever it occurs.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
There's no scientific proof that our way is the universal right!
What's this "science"?
God has said that we are right! Look at our money. It's says "Under God".
I believe the grandparent was referring to how the human rights abuses are reported. For example, in the UK there was the 2005 incident where Jean Charles de Menezes was shot by police for running while looking a bit foreign. In the local press, this was covered as a serious abuse of police power by a small number of individuals and a total failure of the system. It could easily have been covered as a government-sponsored assassination of someone rumoured to have been criticising official policy. If you read the former, you might be concerned about the British police. If you read the latter, you would gain the impression that the UK is a totalitarian regime where the people live in fear of death squads (it isn't yet, but Tony did his best). Coverage of events in China by the western media tends to favour the second interpretation. Unfortunately, there isn't an unbiased source available, so it's very hard to find the truth. Talking to people who live in China you get a very different picture (although I know one Chinese girl whose father isn't allowed to visit her because the government won't allow him to leave the country with his brain full of military secrets).
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
They certainly did get run over at Tienanmen Square. An ex-flatmate's brother lost his leg there. You're talking about the famous photo of the guy stopping the tank by standing in front of it, but that wasn't the only tank, and they didn't always stop.
To be honest, I think you're missing the point totally. Not only is there absolutely no evidence that Jean Charles de Menezes was shot for criticising official policy, I'm not aware of any evidence of him criticising policy.
On the other hand, there is plenty of fairly solid evidence of bad things happening to people who criticise the Chinese government or its policies, and of deliberate attempts by the police to shut them up (usually, but not always, in the non-fatal sense). While it's unclear if these activities have official central government approval or are official policy, since they don't do anything to stop them they are complicit in said activities.
I was in China a couple of weeks ago to visit family and friends. I was in Nanjing and I used the internet to check on the availability of some site that I frequently use.
There are 3 kinds of sites in China in terms of availability. The first is the site with its server in China, these sites are usually fast and reliable. But sometimes you can find a foreign site that responds really fast, like slashdot did for me.
The second are the sites that are totally blocked. Apart from the obvious ones like FalunGong.com I only found sites with satellite images blocked 24/7, such as wikimapia. Google map's Chinese version doesn't have satellite images.
The last group of sites are somewhat in between the first and second. They are not available or unavailable 24/7 but you will loose connection to them at random or their connection will be very slow at times. Sites that go in this category are facebook, sourceforge, youtube, and many of the foreign sites.
Now, it's hard to tell if the government blocked sites in the last group because they work fine most of them time, but all of the sudden the site will slow to a crawl or not show up at all.
Now I know the ISP blocks sites that contain anti-government messages while you are browsing it, but when I looked at my last page before the connection slowed, there weren't any. So as a result most Chinese stick to Chinese forums to vent their frustration about the government or to get news on the newest embarrassing thing they did, because the sites are much faster for them.
I'm boycotting this discussion (except, obviosuly, for this post) for incorrect use of "ironically"
A government so concerned about loosing face in the Olympics...
Precisely, it's not the government, but the officials are so concerned about that. Mao taught the people a lesson that they have to be "political correct" otherwise you will lose your head (most likely not only you but your family), that's 70's and has since become a culture. Today, you won't lose your head that easily (there's a lot of voices against the government in local blog and forum) but for the officials, there is nothing "wrong" to be "political correct", why risking my job in doing the otherwise?
If you think we live under a government that the people fear, that's probably how an extreme Chinese might think about the American too (under the fear of terrorism and the watch of the Big Brother). The fact is, no we are not, and we are probably the same. Both China and US, the general public are not affected, we still work, play, shop and watching porn unaffected. We both think the government is stupid. There might be a little difference how we voice out about our hate to the government, but other than that, I think there are no difference. (Ok, I'm a Hong Kong citizen currently living and working in Shanghai, closely interactive with my colleagues who are Chinese. I also regularly travel to US for working purpose and has been an Exchange student there.)
And, as always, the Chinese already figured out how to circumvent the particular iTunes problem, if you know how to read Chinese: http://www.macx.cn/a/a.mac?B=4000&ID=656667&Ar=656867&AUpflag=1&Ap=1&Aq=1
I second that. They are cowards - afraid to look in the mirror. Now some chinese person's going to reply to this and tell me about all the western hypocrisy, but unlike most westerners, they'll never turn their gaze upon themselves.
This behaviour reminds me of the type of person who is so self-absorbed that they don't know what a complete joke people think they are. All the while, they try to sell you on their big opinion of themselves.
The chinese actions would be hilarious, except that so much human suffering is involved. China is completely out of touch with itself.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
Not protesting a tyranny hosting the olympics worked so fine back in '36.
We really aren't that affected at all
Did you know there's a word for that? It's called apathy.
0x or or snor perron?!
What's even funnier is that you start talking about how we in "The West" hold the government to account for its failures. Have you been reading some of the Slashdot articles of the past seven years?
Here's a really simple idea. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
It is impossible to compare the power of Chinese leaders to western regimes, because in the west we have so many more checks and balances. One of those checks and balances is public outrage. Sure it's not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than anything else out there.
Why not contemplate how you can make your country a better place, then stewing in negative thoughts with some false sense of entitlement you have that you should be living in some kind of enlightenment.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
A lot of the Western media covering Chinese affairs do nothing but criticize.
The right to disbelieve is about as sacred as you get in the West. The chinese seem to believe they have the right to control other peoples thinking - including in the west. Obviously we're not going to get along very well.
We really aren't that affected at all, and I can say (because yes, I have lived in the US and Australia) that life here is no different, except for the annoying fact that I can't access Freewebs.
Not affected until something shitty happens, and then you find out that you've got no way to even tell someone what happened. I guess it's okay, simply because the odds of that are really small right? right??
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
Maybe, but China's history of human rights abuses speaks for itself.
If its history we're talking about, then what about America's history of human rights abuse (slave trade anyone?), or the UK (slaves again, plus that whole empire thing, and navvies).
America owns up to it's history. China tries to revise it's history. Look in the fsking mirror.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
That happened with the abolition of slavery, and that happened again with the civil rights movement. Elements of the government did try to fight the civil rights movement, but ultimately Martin Luther King was not sent off to a labor camp for re-education. That meant he was able to keep speaking out to persuade our society and our government to try to do the right thing.
I'm not sure if that exactly supports your point. Many people were beaten or hanged during slavery for resisting, and it took a "war between the states" to eventually force the lower half of the country to give up their practice of slavery.
Same thing with the civil rights movement -- many people were beaten or jailed for demanding that (gasp!) people were equal despite skin color, which most civilized people have come to accept.
"He may look like an idiot, and talk like an idiot, but don't let that fool you. He really is an idiot." - Duck Soup
Would the US ban an album called songs for Guantanamo? Hmnn, interesting.
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
So, check your history before declaring China to be the fount of all that is wrong in the world.
Complete strawman. The people who criticize China tend to be people who also criticize the US. They're not hypocrites for including China as a target.
It would pretty much make the chinese firewall moot.
Deleted
I am shocked - SHOCKED - that a repressive totalitarian regime would censor something criticizing it.
Oh wait. I'm not.
I'm shocked that people keep forgetting that China is ruled by a repressive totalitarian regime.
You have a better sense of "ironic" than the original post author. The Chinese government blocking access to criticism of the Chinese government blocking access to criticism is not "ironic"; it's "recursive".
[100% ISO 646 Compliant]
SVM, ERGO MONSTRO.
It's no different except for the constant hovering police escort, or the random interrogations.
-- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
Downloading something is a pretty modest show of solidarity because hardly anyone will notice.
I know the Olympics aren't supposed to be "politicized", but let's not be hypocrites: it's ALL about politics, and the fact that they are in Beijing this year is a huge political stunt.
If a bunch of athletes want to protest China's activities, I think they should go all the way and have a walk off. Just get to the starting line, wait for the buzzer, then stand there like an idiot until the others finish their run. All eyes will be on that one person, and the media will be all over them, ready to deliver that protester's sound bite around the world to billions of TV drones.
Now that's an act of protest!
-Billco, Fnarg.com
Dude! The fact that the olympics are in China in the first place is a huge political stunt. Everyone knew this kind of shit would happen, but still, the IOC wanted to give China a chance to show the world how it had changed for the better. Indeed, a few political/human-rights issues were at the heart of that deal, but as soon as China had secured the olympics, they went right back to their abusive habits. They got what they wanted, and they decided to show the world they're nobody's bitch.
How ironic.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
Thing is, the Chinese people don't see it the same way as you and I, because this is how it's been for years. Boil a frog slowly...
Free speech is a delicate battle in the rest of the world, because it gets in the way of government power mongers. In China, they've had power mongers forever, so the concept of free speech does not exist at all - it gets squashed anytime it pops up, "to protect society".
It's a whole different world over there, one that's very difficult for us to completely understand.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
That was funny? I thought it was scary from several perspectives.
:-(
Maybe my hilarity gland is atrophied...
That was funny? I thought it was scary from several perspectives.
Ok, perhaps calling it a 'clever presentation' would be a more specific and appropriate moderation, but it's funny because it's so true, unfortunately.
...though I know it's a solecism to reply to myself, I should mention that I will always defend the right to arm bears... ;-)
Bill Clinton pushed for Chinese admission into the WTO as a means of liberalizing China through open international trade. The US has already accused China of illegally hindering its importation of US movies and music (http://articles.latimes.com/2007/oct/12/business/fi-wto12). Completely banning the iTunes Store (the largest online music retailer, which is US-based) further these charges.
Maybe, but China's history of human rights abuses speaks for itself.
If its history we're talking about, then what about America's history of human rights abuse (slave trade anyone?), or the UK (slaves again, plus that whole empire thing, and navvies).
Yeah. But that's the thing. It is history. We stopped what we were doing, because we realized that it was wrong. In America, we spilled a lot of blood over the issue. China continues to do some pretty nasty things.
And you're right - China isn't the only place where a lot of bad things happen. That doesn't mean we shouldn't point it out, though.
"I'm not the only one, so it is okay!" isn't a good excuse.
Love sees no species.
In fact almost all western countries have just as bad a record as China, only for us a lot of it is in the past.
Nice strawman attack there, how about we compare human rights in at least the current century, if not the current decade.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
King was murdered.
I live in China and so I decided to install itunes and see if I could visit the store.....worked just fine for me. Sometimes the connection is just wonky, for example Hotmail doesn't work once in a while, when it happens just wait a day or two and it will work.
Now, youtube and sourceforge actually were blocked, but were unblocked within a week or two.
I mean, you could have gone TWO FREAKING WEEKS without a political statement, right?
Sure, and the Chinese government could have gone two weeks without massive lies and censorship. But people don't change that easily.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
Yes, but "Isn't it recursive" just doesn't roll off the tongue well enough for a hit single. I'm sure it would sell extraordinarily well to the Slashdot crowd, though. Who would've thought... it figures.
You probably don't realize how spot on you are.
Particularly the last line.
For a nation which has endured more than a century of unending (civil) wars, the loss of some civil-political rights in exchange for "stability" is (or more precisely, "was") indeed the choice made. You could even say that the choice was made particularly in the spring/summer of 1989, during the Tienanmen incident. In that atmosphere, the people could have revolted, and toppled the ruling party... it didn't happen.
Yet things are changing. I believe that in a few decades civil rights in China would improve just as its economy had in the past three decades. And if not, I firmly believe that there would be a number of Chinese who'd risk everything to achieve this goal (as opposed to "outrages" on the other side of the globe without real action).
Don't quote me on this.
You should also add that the war between the states was not about the morality of slavery but rather which was more economically feasible to each side. The North's economy was based around paying low wages and letting people fend for themselves. The South was based on free labor that was provided food and shelter (e.g. NSTAAFL). The argument over slavery and economy was pretty tightly intertwined and hotly contested, as wealthy peoples' way of life hinged on it. Even after the North won, I'm pretty sure Black people were not suddenly treated as equals by those in 'free' states.
I clearly think censorship of any kind by anyone is just WRONG! That includes China. But why is there no criticism in Slashdot of Apple for their heavy-handed censorship of forum postings?
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=2173/
Slashdot hypocrisy is action? Go ahead and mod me down more. That's a form of censorship too!
The concept of free speech does not exist per se, at least it isn't viewed as a fundamental, inherent right. But then the Chinese don't have an inherent fondness of suppressing speech. The problem is the difference in priorities.
The biggest hurdle for westerners in understanding "Chinese values" is that the "fundamental" value in Chinese political theory (since probably 3000 years ago) is the "nation", and "national unity" is as sacred as the constitution is to Americans. Everything else is second. Like it or not, it's the thing that binds the whole country and its people together. (As to why this is the case, you really have to dig into Chinese history... and I think that's a subject with a huge learning curve for westerners...) That's why you can't advocate Tibet independence in China (without facing dire consequences), but other things that don't affect the stability of the political structure are usually OK in practice.
If you understand that, then you might understand why the Chinese are so upset when westerners keep bringing up the Tibet issue.
Don't quote me on this.
I consider modding this a troll an unwillingness to view it as a serious opinion, but I am serious.
There are two basic types of view of what America should be: world policeman, or citizen of the earth.
Growing up during the Cold War, I saw our government spend the best of our money and efforts fending off foreign adversaries and fighting pointless wars.
If we're world policeman, there's more of those wars coming.
If we're just a citizen of the earth, we defend our interests, mind our own business -- and we have a ton of cleanup to do within our own borders, in our own souls -- and let the Chinese do what they're gonna do. I don't care if they destroy Tibet, rape every first born child with a glue gun, and pour buckets of hot acid onto their women. It's their country and it should be their rules.
Like a neurotic neighbor, the West keeps going to countries like Viet Nam in the name of Good, and brings Evil because we're aware that what we're doing isn't absolutely right. We're finding excuses to avoid looking at our problems at home.
In my religion, Hinduism, we view all other religions as branches of Hinduism. So I find this passage from the Bible to be memorable:
3 And why behold the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but consider not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how will thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Matthew 7:3-5 (King James Version)
The West can't see that we've got a beam in our own eye, so we keep finding reasons to intervene elsewhere because we view ourselves as the God-given moral authority on planet earth.
I can't think of a more pretentious, misguided plan, nor one surer to leave behind fields of enemies growing stronger as we grow weak.
Anti-Globalism, Traditionalism, and FreeBSD.
I think it's a habit of all dying regimes, dying nations and failing groups to engage in surrogate activities.
Americans aren't unique. They're just at the head of this trend in the West. The UK and Canada follow, and after that, mainland Europe.
It's a path to decay you can find outlined here:
The Republic
But it's far easier for people to go into denial, as you can see when a thread whose content is "They are cowards - afraid to look in the mirror. Now some chinese person's going to reply to this and tell me about all the western hypocrisy, but unlike most westerners, they'll never turn their gaze upon themselves." modded up above any more realistic commentary.
Why? It's easier to blame the Chinese than look at our own problems and realize we in the West should clean house first.
Anti-Globalism, Traditionalism, and FreeBSD.
Sorry, even in a roundabout way the British can't take credit for ending the slave trade without looking like huge assholes (that'd be you). The slave trade was ended after all of the profits had already been made. All of the slave economies had large, stable populations of slaves by the time Britain banned slave trading in their territories. There was little money left to be made.
Ending slavery came later, and is substantially easier when you don't have any slaves in your country, and thus have little economic incentive to keep people enslaved. There were only slaves in a few British colonies in the 19th century (Jamaica et al), and their economic importance had dropped significantly since the height of the slave trade.
If you all had ended it in the 17th century when there were still unbelievable amounts of money to be made, you could puff your chest out about being morally superior. But you only ended slavery when it stopped affecting the bottom line. Understandable, but hardly any different than any other imperial power.
You have a better sense of "ironic" than the original post author.
Which begs the question...
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I think you're missing the point totally.
The point isn't whether Jean Charles de Menezes criticized the government. It's the attitude of the reporting, the bias, the implicit messages (sometimes grounded and sometimes not) that the Chinese government is unequivocally evil, bad, and oppressive.
If the GP's example isn't accurate enough, I'll give you an example I recall during the Olympic torch relay. If I remember correctly, BBC ran a story about protests during the torch relay, and then the reporter commented that there was no coverage of the protests in Chinese media -- implying that they had "filtered" away the news. But it turns out that the reason for the lack of coverage was due to some timezone and logistic difficulties, and the Chinese media ran the story about the protests (of course with much less emphasis on the negative side) a short while later.
Don't quote me on this.
Frankly, it makes me angry, because oppression of any people in any country provides lessons to oppress people anywhere.
Hmm, interesting. Where'd you get this myth from?
Come to think of it, China is actually really bad at oppressing people... Every time they jail somebody, the whole world points their fingers at them. Heck, even Yahoo is getting a lot of flame for assisting the Chinese government.
I mean, the USA is much more successful with Guantanamo... As for censorship, China has much to learn from the USA on how to censor things without people noticing, how to control the media yet making it seem "free".
If anything, I really hope China doesn't learn how to really oppress people from the USA....
Don't quote me on this.
Might be strawman, but since you're talking about a whole group of people...
How come on slashdot, besides the USA, the main subject of criticism is against China?
Being a US-centric site, large amounts of criticisms against the USA is expected since that's where most(?) slashdotters live and that's the country most slashdotters are familiar with. Yet why does China get more flames than any other place? Sure, China might be a larger country with a larger population, but I'm pretty sure if you add up the stories and comments criticizing any country in Europe, the number would still be lower than those criticizing China.
Simple analogy: I say to you "why are you always complaining about me?", and you reply "No I don't. I also complain about my wife. I'm not singling you out."
Don't quote me on this.
Mao taught the people a lesson that they have to be "political correct" otherwise you will lose your head (most likely not only you but your family), that's 70's and has since become a culture
This has been so for thousands of years in China. In fact, in the past, it wouldn't suffice to be "politically correct". Encountering a mistake in your political career (possibly not your fault) and you might be executed. In particular, you stand a high chance of being executed if you lose a battle (even if you're outnumbered and did your best). I don't recall Mao being that extreme...
(Hi there from Hong Kong, it's really hot this summer)
Don't quote me on this.
Well duh. Of course China is nobody's bitch...
The fact that you think giving China the right to host the Olympics is enough to make them your (or somebody's) bitch is simply ... hilarious.
Don't quote me on this.
Yet why does China get more flames than any other place?
It has the largest population on earth and it is making an effort to be a world power. People are very wary of China, and the level of oppression there is, on a purely logistical scale, overwhelming. And honestly, I think a lot of people sense that China will soon push its problems on the rest of us. Chinese nationalism is at a disturbing level, and the sense I personally get from their relentless drive towards modernization is they want everyone to be intimidated. This is a country where they're still enraged about the opium wars.
Of course, they conveniently forget about past history where they were the aggressors, but that's a different conversation.
The obsession with this idea of projecting Chinese strength abroad is the direct cause of their cheating in the Olympics.
And on slashdot many other countries come under intense criticism. The UK is a very frequent target, especially due to their paranoia over surveillance.
Ever since WW2 governments have been have been using Hitler's techniques for controlling population.
Good, there should be more of it.
So you actually don't disagree with me then and it's not a myth. Do you think that just because America does something bad it's right for China to do something 'not quite as bad'.
Well, I hope so too. You seem to be proving my point nicely.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Sydney it's not about the Chinese or American's as a people it's about the governments. People around the world including myself marvel at the grace and beauty of Chinese culture, even I love "journey to the west".
But it doesn't mean I'm going to behave meekly when confronted with the oppression of the Chinese government, because challenging oppression everywhere is the way to freedom everywhere.
The last protest I saw in China turned bloody, and it was a telling message of what the Chinese government is prepared to do. If the Chinese people aren't still being oppressed, then why haven't we seen any protests?
It's because people are afraid to protest.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
I don't see why my post is modded as a troll. Not enough was said about China suppressing Tibet during the Olympics and that's what it is, suppression. China has been occupying Tibet for a long time, intimidating Taiwan and it's own people. This is not a criticism of the Chinese people who at the moment don't have the voice to stop their own government from doing these things or a lulled into apathy by the western way of life. There is a different kind of wisdom in the west, it comes from people who are prepared to continue to challenge oppression.
The Beijing Olympics have proved beyond a doubt that China is not a communist state, it is a Totalitarian state. The Chinese government proved what they set out to disprove. My image of the Olympics will be the Chinese special police surrounding the Olympic flame in every country, fake fireworks, the national anthem being mimed, excluding athletes because they weren't pretty enough and finally banning a few protest songs. The Chinese Government has brought shame on themselves by proving they are what they say they are not, by proving they could not rise above their own brutality and not exploring - even for a moment - if another way could work for their people. It truly proves how fragile the Chinese leaderships ideals are, that even the most flimsy dissent, even from another country, cannot be tolerated.
Whereas before I was ambivalent towards Chinese government I am certain now.The emperor has no clothes.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
Ni hao lin ju! I'm over in the Minhang District, two blocks north of the indoor skiing center. I live half my life here in China (mostly Shanghai, with time spent in Suzhou and Ningbo as well), and the other half in the US, and I fully concur with your statements. The reality is that China is not as oppressive as the Western media likes to make it out to be, nor is it as free as the US. But it is opening up more and more...
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Show me an athlete who refuses his medal to make a point and then I might think the olympics are any different from the soccer world championship.
You mean like this guy?
The last protest I saw in China turned bloody, and it was a telling message of what the Chinese government is prepared to do. If the Chinese people aren't still being oppressed, then why haven't we seen any protests?
I must admit that I'm not particularly informed on this subject, but as far as I know, there *are* countless protests happening in China, although not about freedoms and (political) rights. More like corrupt officials destroying livelihoods of people and forcing them to revolt (like taking away their lands/homes).
Don't quote me on this.
I would say China, and its population, corrects itself much faster than the U.S.
Show me anti-Bush bloggers or songwriters disappearing off the streets of NY or Chicago or LA, and I'll agree America's problems deserve more attention than China's.
When you ask the wrong questions, you get the wrong answers.
I say America is decaying. You say America is not arresting bloggers, THEREFORE we are doing just fine. You are equating the path to decay to the path of arresting bloggers. Since there is more to the issue than that, I think you are asking the wrong question as a way of (personally) avoiding the issue.
Your government and media tell you that you have freedom because anti-Bush bloggers (an inconsequential cabal of people who make under $40,000 a year and so feel disenfranchised in a political system where media influences equals votes) are still walking the streets. It would be convenient for them if decay could be so measured in laws...
Nations decay as their citizens lose consensus on values. A nation is not its institutions, its laws or its leaders. A nation is its people. Nations are organic things. They can be born, age, and die. Ours is now dying (see Plato for confirmation) and you're worried about
Anti-Globalism, Traditionalism, and FreeBSD.
Of course, they think free speech and democracy are silver bullets, and prescribe heavy doses of them, because they work instantly when you install a shrink wrapped version onto any country. The only thing holding it back is the evil, EVIL dictator whose greatest pleasure is to oppress people. Once you take down that EVIL dictator everything works PERFECTLY.
That's the best summary so far.
I even think it's a mistake to see system of government as the enemy. When China was a starving mostly third-world nation, its Communist government did OK by the whole of the nation in getting it out of that state, even if some people were oppressed or died.
On internet sites, we drown in people who like one-click solutions. Just install Democracy, problem solved! These one-click voters fear any more complex solutions because (a) they're not sure they can understand them and (b) they're afraid that a complex solution will make them less "free," which really means un-accountable for maintaining the society around them.
As an old Star Trek opined, The needs of the many are greater than the needs of the one.
Nations are like living things. People are like their cells. We can whine about being cells, or we can face reality and grow up a bit, which is the one thing one-click voters don't like to do.
Anti-Globalism, Traditionalism, and FreeBSD.
Politically free, free market societies simply tend to do better in the long run than repressive, totalitarian societies.
How many of these "politically free, free market societies" have existed for more than 200 years?
You realize 200 years is the time it takes history to sneeze while contemplating the fate of nations?
The Chinese may be right: until this whole "liberal democracy" agenda shows it can make a stable civilization for half a millennium, it's not worth trading a five millennium society for!
Anti-Globalism, Traditionalism, and FreeBSD.
Interestingly, no one seems to know much about how the slave trade was ended, in large part due to the efforts of Britain after we decided to abolish it.
Preposterous.
The invisible hand ushered slavery off the face of this earth, just as the great Libertarian God had predicted aeons ago.
Oh wait, that opinion is decidedly unpopular, so it'll get modded down and no one will see it, and even if they did, their heads are so full of TV they might not even be ready to accept it, so this was probably a waste of time. KTHXBYE
Anti-Globalism, Traditionalism, and FreeBSD.
most civilized people have come to accept.
Not speaking on this particular issue, but with your method.
As a scientist, what makes you think that the broadest sample represents the most accurate one, when we're talking about questions of analytical ability?
Most people want Britney Spears.
Most people want TV and donuts.
Most people hide their heads in the sand.
I don't think "most people" ever come up with the right answer to anything.
Anti-Globalism, Traditionalism, and FreeBSD.
Communism has never really been tried because people are people. Republics tend to work well for the same reason.
In short, communism as you think of it is impossible for any length of time in a group larger than one.
I think you're basically right, although among small groups of like minded people Communism might work, in fact the Open Source Movement shows under what kinds of conditions Communism might work. On the large scale Communism might just have to wait until we develop empathy and conciseness as a species rather than as individuals.
We don't believe in radical loony monotheistic religions from the middle east -- we're Christians.
There are other issues within China too (such as the rather inaccurate grasp of history available to its citizens). Admittedly, things are more complicated than they might seem at first, but the issues are there and real.