EA Hit By Class-Action Suit Over Spore DRM

The ever-growing unrest caused by the DRM involved with EA's launch of Spore came to a head on Monday. A woman named Melissa Thomas filed a class-action lawsuit against EA for their inclusion of the SecuROM copy-protection software with Spore. This comes after protests of the game's DRM ranged from a bombardment of poor Amazon reviews to in-game designs decrying EA and its policies. Some of those policies were eased, but EA has also threatened to ban players for even discussing SecuROM on their forums. The court documents (PDF) allege: "What purchasers are not told is that, included in the purchase, installation, and operation of Spore is a second, undisclosed program. The name of the second program is SecuROM ... Consumers are given no control, rights, or options over SecuROM. ... Electronic Arts intentionally did not disclose to any such purchasers that the Spore game disk also possessed a second, hidden program which secretly installed to the command and control center of the computer."

Comments

simply boycott them

[jacquesm]

and do the same for any other DRM laden product, it'll teach the manufacturers quickly to stay away from DRM.

Re:simply boycott them

[lymond01]

Boycotting is fine if you can manage the sacrifice yourself. But if you still want the game, but you would just rather not see malware attached in future editions, a suit works out better -- hits them, potentially, in the wallet due to the settlement and negative image portrayal.

Re:simply boycott them

[91degrees]

Simple, but causes them greater pain. Hopefully that will make it more effective.

Re:simply boycott them

[Fallen Kell]

Boycotting doesn't work anymore. I have been boycotting most music for years, yet the music companies just point their finger and blame the drop in sales to pirates. Software companies will do the same thing.

Re:simply boycott them

[HappySmileMan]

Problem is, every copy of a game they don't sell, they seem to blame on piracy, not their own worthless products.

Re:simply boycott them

[Ethanol-fueled]

Or they could just call 'em "Rentals" as they should and stick on DRM eula(which nobody will read anyway).

Re:simply boycott them

[Dutch Gun]

and do the same for any other DRM laden product, it'll teach the manufacturers quickly to stay away from DRM.

Or, they'll drop PC gaming and just move to consoles, where the DRM is just a part of the platform (make no mistake, I enjoy console gaming, but DRM is completely seamless and transparent on a console). I fear the wrong lessons will be learned unless people are also very clear about *why* they are not purchasing a particular product. The flipside to this is to reward the companies who produce products DRM free PC games with your voting dollars (or euros, pounds, whatever).

Re:simply boycott them

[moderatorrater]

Especially with the way the Sony rootkit debacle went down. They're not identical situations, but they're similar enough to give one hope.

Re:simply boycott them

[jacquesm]

If there are alternatives and those alternatives do well (without the DRM) then I'm sure the message will come across loud and clear.

And if it doesn't then the market will take care of them eventually. We're really only in the beginnings of this phase of the copyright game and it will take a while for it to play out but I'm pretty confident that eventually all media will be DRM free and will use open standards. It's the vested interests that have the most to lose here, new talent really couldn't care less, they'll take the audience and run with it.

Re:simply boycott them

[MBGMorden]

It's not as simple as "just calling it a rental" though. Renting is one way to enjoy something. I rent some movies and games. Buying is another. I buy some other movies and games. Saying that they should "just call it a rental" though implies that the two methods are equal except for the name. They're not. If I want to BUY a game, and only a rental is available, then I'm still pissed off regardless of them correctly terming the rental as such.

Re:simply boycott them

[scatters]

Check out StarDock's Gamers' Bill of Rights. http://www.stardock.com/about/newsitem.asp?id=1095

Sins of a Solar Empire is an excellent RTS game, with frequent major updates.

Re:simply boycott them

[snowraver1]

I boycott most music as well, but just because it sucks. The best music (IMO of course) was made in the 80's and 90's. The VAST majority of my downloaded music is content that I originally had a CD for, but have lost over the course of several moves.

Re:simply boycott them

[mcgrew]

It worked in the eighties. The major game writing software houses had DRM, the indies didn't. The indies were ironically the guys like Carmak and Broussard who were putting out shareware and are now running the big game companies.

"Don't trust anyone over 25" - Cory Doctorow ;)

Re:simply boycott them

[grumbel]

The big problem is that boycotting doesn't really work, not only is there the problem that the publisher will conclude that piracy was the fault, not DRM, but there is also the problem that the publshier is often the one dictating the DRM not the developer, in fact the developers are often against it, but they can't really do much about it. And when boycotting the publisher means to also boycott the developers that I actually care about, then boycotting is often a not an option.

Re:simply boycott them

[Hyppy]

But, at least people who thought they were buying the game aren't going to have a nasty surprise later.

Re:simply boycott them

[HungryHobo]

this really might achieve more than a thousand angsty gamers complaining about it on message boards. "direct financial liability" speaks louder than "unhappy players"

Re:simply boycott them

[Ethanol-fueled]

"Buying a game" would still exist. Calling rentals for what they are would not equate "buying" with "renting" -- EA as well as any anybody else who read the review comments on Amazon damn well know the difference between "renting" and "buying" as well as what gamers want(to completely own and pwn the game they paid for).

Re:simply boycott them

[ivan256]

"Don't trust anyone under 25" - Everybody over 25 ;)

Re:simply boycott them

[Hortensia Patel]

Describing them explicitly as "rentals" might dissipate some ire on the limited-installs thing, but it would in no way excuse the practice of PERMANENTLY installing malware on the user's machine, which is what this suit is about.

Re:simply boycott them

[MBGMorden]

If you think that you're going to semantically trick EA into distributing the same game both with and without DRM you're just being incredibly naive. Regardless of what you get them to agree to call it, they still consider it "selling".

Re:simply boycott them

[strabes]

If they start calling them rentals I won't be paying $50 for each game I "rent."

Re:simply boycott them

[geminidomino]

I wish they'd make an RPG. I've been hearing about Stardock for months and would love to become a customer... but I loathe RTSes.

Re:simply boycott them

[bwcbwc]

Nah, I prefer going after them with the Computer Fraud and Abuse act or consumer laws in several states that prohibit installing software without explicit authorization (and burying it in a 20 screen EULA doesn't count) from the user. Lawyer fees add up a lot faster than lost sales.

Re:simply boycott them

[Kjella]

While I hear what you're saying and I'm sure it's right on the personal level, it's not like EMI went to heaven when they started carrying iTunes plus DRM-free songs. Same with Amazon and all the others selling music from the big bands (and there's always emusic and the like but that's really a mainstream vs independent issue), the signals aren't exactly loud and clear that no DRM equals more profit. At least here on slashdot there's always someone complaining it's not FLAC at AllOfMp3 prices with a Linux client or somesuch. It's possible that the DRM companies are pissing in the common pool but if the DRM and DRM-free shops are hit equally hard then the message is just lost along with all the economic ups and downs, consumer trends and all that hits the industry as a whole. Plus people aren't exactly binary, some love their bands and hate DRM but still end up buying some things they simply "must have" and others not. Also album sales are notoriously difficult to predict, so a few percent here and there is completely drown out by the record being a hit or a flop anyway, it needs to be clear that DRM flops, no DRM tops. It's just not that clear and I don't think there's enough people with you to get that message across.

Re:simply boycott them

[Sj0]

"Trust anyone who is 25" -25 year olds

Re:simply boycott them

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

and do the same for any other DRM laden product, it'll teach the manufacturers quickly to stay away from DRM.

Note to everybody: This comes up in every single thread about DRM and it's always debunked in every single thread. Boycotting will not do anything to get a company to change its mind about DRM. Your lack of a purchase cannot be distinguished from a lack of interest, a pirated copy, or even a slow economy. Boycotting will never work with creative products like movies, music, or video games. It works on products such as Coca Cola. That's because the company can see a change in the average number of sales. With products like video games, a boycott cannot be measured.

Please stop suggesting it. Please stop modding it up. It is not a solution. One-star reviews on Amazon worked, being silent did not. Shush.

Re:simply boycott them

[Ephemeriis]

Problem is that boycotts don't really work that well anymore. Sure, I can boycott them... And maybe a couple dozen other people will too... But EA will still make plenty of money from the thousands and thousands of people who'll happily buy their products. And any loss in sales will simply be attributed to piracy.

For a boycott to actually work you need to get enough people participating that it becomes impossible to ignore. And the vast majority of people these days just don't seem to care.

A lawsuit, on the other hand, gets attention. EA will, at the very least, have to throw some money at some lawyers. Maybe they'll wind up settling out of court... Maybe there'll be a real judgement... But either way EA is going to have to at least respond to the accusations.

And if it gets big enough, you might just see something about this on CNN on a slow news day. If EA got enough bad press we might even wind up with an effective boycott.

Re:simply boycott them

[Ethanol-fueled]

That's the point :)

On the other hand, they could get greedy and charge 20$ for the rental version and 100$ for the "enhanced"(DRM-free) version and we'd be back to square one of the EA suckfest :(

Re:simply boycott them

[oldhack]

I boycott most music as well, but just because it sucks. The best music (IMO of course) was made in the 80's and 90's.

In your mid 30's, eh? Miss your good old school techno? ;-)

Re:simply boycott them

[Kaboom13]

The best music (IMO of course) was made in the 80's and 90's.

Yeah, and kids these days won't stay off my lawn! Why won't their parents teach them manners like they did back in my day.

Re:simply boycott them

[pizzach]

Boycotting is fine if you can manage the sacrifice yourself.

I think most people are being a bit melodramatic. Sometimes the choices aren't restricted to eating or going without. Sometimes there is the choice of eating something else. There are a lot of good games that don't sell as well as they should.

Re:simply boycott them

[mweather]

With the money you'd spend on a suit, you could rebuy the game several thousand times over.

Re:simply boycott them

[mweather]

Boycotting works just as well as it always has. Do you think the Montgomery bus boycott would have worked if only Rosa Parks was boycotting it? Of course not.

Re:simply boycott them

[orclevegam]

The DRM on consoles isn't like the DRM people are up in arms over on PCs. If you had a console game that you bought at the store, had to connect online whenever you played it, required you to install a piece of it to the hard drive, and only allowed you to uninstall/reinstall it 3 times before it would refuse to run, people would be talking about boycotting it as well. As it is, the downloadable content on some systems (*cough*Wii*cough*) being tied to a particular console already caused a bit of a ruckus, but at least once you downloaded it that was it, no more mucking about with DRM needed. There's DRM, and then there's DRM, and depending on exactly what flavor your talking about people have various levels of tolerance. We all know it largely doesn't work, but the more benign forms of it at least don't feel like a smack in the face combined with a pair of manacles, unlike the stuff coming out of EA these days. Someone already pointed out Stardock, and their excellent game Sins of a Solar Empire, and I'll just second that recommendation. I actually bought the game prior to finding out about their take on DRM, and I have to say I've been nothing but pleased with the game, and what little DRM it has in it, is the sort of thing all companies should be using (if they must use something).

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

The best music (IMO of course) was made in the 80's and 90's.

Which is exactly why when you turn on any halfway successful radio station these days, you still often hear your old favorites from that time mixed in with the new crap. Sure, they're trying to fork the new crap on you, but they know you won't listen at all unless they play at least a little of the good stuff.

Hell, Metallica hasn't put out a decent album since the self-titled release that had Enter Sandman on it, and even that was a bit of a sell-out album.

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a HUGE fan of Stardock. The download interface they have for the games is pretty easy to deal with. I've acutally installed the games on own on 3 PCs. Noooo, I'm not pirating the software, I believe I am abiding by the spirit of the rules because I only use a single copy of each of my games at any one time. Its just nice to have the games installed on my main PC, or on my laptop for the road...or on my wife's laptop in case the kids are doing something on my laptop and I need to be upstairs...

Reinstalling a game is great too. New PC? Easy, just install Stardock's Impulse and log in to your account.

Now, if only there was an easy way to tie a retail bought version of the game to your Stardock account.....

Re:simply boycott them

[ferat]

Buy and return it, explain why you are returning it. Shows that you had interest but are not willing to support the policies.

Re:simply boycott them

[doti]

Why won't their parents teach them manners like they did back in my day.

Now that is your generation fault.

Re:simply boycott them

[lysergic.acid]

yea, but that was a social protest about segregation. the boycott was a very visible form of protest that drew media attention to the issue.

whereas, not buying music isn't a visible form of protest. it's weight relies on economic sanctions rather than visibility. it doesn't promote public discourse about the issue of DRM. and the effect of the sanctions could simply be attributed to "piracy" by the pro-DRM camp.

i'm still in support of boycotting major labels and companies who use DRM, but i don't think you can draw that analogy.

Re:simply boycott them

[nschubach]

This is WAY off Topic, so just ignore me:

As a lingering Metallica fan who enjoyed some of the music post black album, their new songs are like A.D.D. Rock. They don't flow right often switching beat mid song, they are mixed all wrong (drums too loud, vocals as well) ... I can't stand to listen to it anymore. I've ventured into Progressive Metal|Rock in order to get my fix of heavy rifts, deep vocals and sound.

Re:simply boycott them

[Dekker3D]

i don't know where you buy your suits, man.. i just go to the thrift store! ;)

sorry for that. but it isn't exactly about getting money, it's about getting justice and making a point. and i'm sure they'll get that money back if they win, anyway.

Re:simply boycott them

[nschubach]

It's been pointed out MANY times that Stardock games do have DRM. I point you to the sig.bin file (which causes a validation check if removed) in your install folder and this image:
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8435/stardockactivationeo1.png

Re:simply boycott them

[Moridineas]

I boycott most music as well, but just because it sucks. The best music (IMO of course) was made in the 80's and 90's. The VAST majority of my downloaded music is content that I originally had a CD for, but have lost over the course of several moves.

That's funny, I boycott music from the 80s and 90s. ;-)

Look forward to the generation that things the 00's and 10s had the best music, and be afraid...

Re:simply boycott them

[Emperor Zombie]

Return it to whom? The kid working at Gamestop isn't going to pass your complaints on to EA.

Re:simply boycott them

[slimjim8094]

And fuck over the businesses, who don't care about DRM in the slightest? Why would you think that would move 'up the chain' as it were? Will Gamestop stores talk to their management, who talk to their management all the way up the chain of Gamestop, then somehow it gets to the publisher?

Yeah right. You're just fucking over the wrong people.

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly my thoughts! They are just gonna say the low sales are because of piracy. Hell, when they said they're next games will now *gasp* allow 5 installs instead of 3, they said they thought costumers understood piracy was a big problem, and that the install limit was reasonable.

Do companies live under a rock? Have they ever searched on TPB for a torrent of their game? The people who pirate the game have less problems with their DRM than the people who buy the game!

DRM does nothing to stop piracy.

Re:simply boycott them

[CodeBuster]

Activation, in this case, is not the same as DRM (although I suppose, strictly speaking, that that depends upon how far you want to extend the definition and scope of DRM). If you have a copy of the game then you can install and play it without activation (although you may not be able to download updates without activing). Also, you can activate on as many computers as you want as many times as you want. I have a Stardock.net account for object desktop and the galactic civ games and I can and have installed them on three (3) computers that I own. From all that I have heard the games, when installed with key from the jewel case or manual (which is typical for most purchased games), will function even if you have not paid for your copy (although I would encourage you to purchase your Stardock games if you want to play them since buying from Stardock supports the "good guys" whereas buying from EA supports the "bad guys"). If you object to DRM because it limits your freedom to use the product as you wish and not simply because you would rather not pay, then it behooves you to support the "good guys" with your dollars in the DRM fight while simultaneously not giving the "bad guys" (EA et al) any ammunition to say, "See, Stardock used no DRM and everyone pirated their games." (even though DRM does not prevent most non-casual copying and even less with PC games since most PC gamers are more savvy than the average computer user).

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, by you. Do you have something against them or just an obsession with the topic?

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot to add "Get off my lawn!"

Re:simply boycott them

[dswensen]

"My life is a lie!" - you at 26.

Re:simply boycott them

[Sj0]

It's also been pointed out MANY times that it's not DRM if they're not managing your digital rights.

It's copy protection, but you're completely open to make as many copies as you want using Impulse.

Re:simply boycott them

[Walkingshark]

What is this progressive metal/rock you speak of? I am intrigued.

Re:simply boycott them

[daver00]

I don't buy that argument about console DRM. Sure, its hard(er) to burn games on consoles but there is one stark difference with more or less all console games: I can eject my disc, take it to my mates house, pop it in his console and play it there. I can also re sell my used games and there is an avid market for this, hell the two biggest ps3 titles this year have been available for swap for "6 used ps2 games" at many stores around the place.

DRM on the PC exists explicitly to prevent you from doing any of this. I don't see why. I don't see why you can re sell a console game and not a pc game? I don't see why you can share your console games with your friends and not your pc games? Plus there is little if any difference with the levels of piracy on consoles, I'm not exactly up to speed with current gen mod chipping but last gen was ridiculous. It was EASIER to pirate games on the ps2 and xbox than on a pc, if you got a mod chip, which everyone did, especially the non geeks. Seems everyone knew someone who would install that chip for $100, and everyone did it, and everyone had a stupidly large stack of ripped games.

There is an elephant i nthe room that nobody seems to bring up in these debates. This DRM stuff is not about controlling piracy, this is about controlling your purchasing decisions. They should call it 'digital revenue mangement'.

Re:simply boycott them

[LingNoi]

You do realise that once you return the game, the store can't return games purchased to the publisher right?

You're just fucking over EB and Gamestop because as far as EA is concerned they've made a sale.

Re:simply boycott them

[superpulpsicle]

People still buy EA games? 8o

Re:simply boycott them

[Asic Eng]

That's not exactly what boycotting means. You are merely changing your individual spending habits - a boycott is an organized action trying to hurt a specific target. It doesn't have to last long and it doesn't have to involve all your purchasing decisions. For a successful example check the Brent Spar boycott http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brent_spar#The_.22battle.22_of_Brent_Spar . Fingerpointing is irrelevant in a case like that - they'd be forced to act just as Shell was, who even had to conclude "Shell's position as a major European enterprise has become untenable".

Re:simply boycott them

[Tom]

Economy 101: Boycotts do not work in a monopoly or oligopoly market.

That's why boycotts on oil companies never worked and never changed anything - you can't just go and buy something else instead.

If your options were "Spore with DRM" and "Spore without DRM", it would be easy to vote with your dollars. But your choice is "Spore with DRM" and "no Spore", which leaves you no choice that transports a message, because "no purchase" is not an event and thus does not trigger a response. Publicly saying you "would have bought, but reconsidered" as happens on Amazon, is the closest you get.

Re:simply boycott them

[Stormwatch]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock

Re:simply boycott them

[WillAffleckUW]

You do realise that once you return the game, the store can't return games purchased to the publisher right?

You're just fucking over EB and Gamestop because as far as EA is concerned they've made a sale.

Not really. You're sending a very strong economic message to EB and Gamestop that they had better strongly fight for consumer rights or they will pay the price for allowing DRM games on their shelves.

This is the power of the boycott - it magnifies the economic message manyfold, causing disruption up and down the economic food chain, and forcing quick action from many economic partners.

The media then report that Store A in their city is seeing "unprecedented returns" of the games, causing the message to get even more strongly reinforced.

There's consumerism. And there's economic warfare.

You rarely get what you want by being a sheep, but by being a warrior you succeed far more often.

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

Stardock has no copy protection, though--if you buy a box, you can use it as is forever.

Too, their games only phone home, as it were, when you patch, and they're working on a few things to make it easier to have your gaming computer disconnected from the internet.

Re:simply boycott them

[somersault]

Unfortunately since Spore is quite a unique game, the only real alternative is really to pirate (or wait for the console version)!

Re:simply boycott them

[Bobartig]

One-Star reviews on Amazon worked to do what exactly? Demonstrate that people didn't buy the game because of DRM? Hardly the case. There's no way to demonstrate that, without the DRM, any of those reviewers would have bought the game.

Re:simply boycott them

[Djehuty3]

You can; Open up Impulse, in the top right there is a little key; click through, that'll take you to a "Registrations" page, bottom left, add registration, insert the serial, Wham, Bam, thank you ma'am.

Re:simply boycott them

[snaz555]

You can more simply boycott them if they're required to disclose that their products are DRM infested and come with restrictive install policies.

Re:simply boycott them

[lastchance_000]

GP meant the 1790's. Kids nowadays.

Re:simply boycott them

[cibyr]

Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin fit into the category, but some less well-known examples are:

• Dream Theater
• Porcupine Tree
• Pain of Salvation
• King Crimson
• Rush

That should be enough to get you started :)

Re:simply boycott them

[UncleTogie]

"My life is a lie!" - you at 26.

"My life is a cake!" - you, confused, at 26.

Re:simply boycott them

[Skrapion]

If there are alternatives and those alternatives do well (without the DRM) then I'm sure the message will come across loud and clear.

The music industry still makes the lions share of their money off of CD sales, a DRM-free medium, but that particular message hasn't seemed to make it through their thick skulls.

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus, is that what it's come to? People talking about music from the 80s and 90s are "old codgers". Damn, everyone knows the best music was made in the 60's and 70's...

Re:simply boycott them

[Jesus_666]

No, this is great. Thing like this are making strong DRM a liability to the corps, thus providing an incentive not to use it. This is the little man fighting back and I must say I like it. I hope this suit does go somewhere - it'd not just affect SecuROM but also set a precedent against including intrusive copy protection software with video games.

Re:simply boycott them

[Skye16]

"Only trust those who are 25i" - Imaginary 25 year olds

Re:simply boycott them

[penguinstorm]

Yeah sure, 'cause Bon Jovi & Poison were the ultimate evolution of music. It's all been downhill from there.

Good music is always getting made, you just need to find it. Most people stop doing that when they hit their 30s (which is roughly when they start finding the couch more often.)

Re:simply boycott them

[UncleTogie]

There are a lot of good games that don't sell as well as they should.

No kidding. I've heard through the grapevine that Duke Nukem Forever hasn't even sold one copy yet!

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

My cake is alive!

Re:simply boycott them

[LingNoi]

Problem is it doesn't work for media such as games and movies because they just blame it on piracy or the specific game. Then they make a new game and forget about the whole thing.

A lawsuit sends a very clear message and if EA makes another game with DRM then you just sue them again and again for every game.

Re:simply boycott them

[Omestes]

Try Isis and Mastodon (Meshuggah if you lean harder), and if you think lyrics are superfluous, try bands such as Pelican and Russian Circles, and on the more silent side Red Sparowes and Grails.

Last.fm is your friend when it comes to discovering new things, as long as your taste isn't too popular (when the Beatles and Radiohead become suggestions for everything).

Re:simply boycott them

[billcopc]

Boycotting doesn't do shit because only a tiny percentage of potential users will actually participate in the boycott. People just don't know, don't care, and don't have any goddamned self-control anymore.

At least a class-action suit will get some media attention, and maybe send a message to EA. The game sucks, the DRM sucks, and people are starting to hate EA's guts (it's about time!).

Hit them where it hurts: their public image, and their bottom line.

Re:simply boycott them

[apoc.famine]

I'm generally a FPS guy, and while I can tolerate a RTS, I'm not a major fan. That being said, Sins is a ton of fun. The soundtrack alone is one of the best bits of "background noise" that I've seen in a long time.

But the very, VERY best reason to play Sins is that the game has the BEST controls of ANY game I've ever played. Play it, and see how controls are supposed to be set up. It is truly amazing, and a fantastic breath of fresh air.

Re:simply boycott them

[Jafafa Hots]

Yeah... in my 30s I was busy working and didn't find too much new music... just new stuff by my old favorites.

Now I'm retired (so to speak) and in my late 30s and early 40s I've discovered scads of great music - much of it made in the 90s when I thought there was no good music being made.

None of it is the kind of thing ever to have made the radio here, of course.

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't say that one-star reviews worked. It got the EA execs attention but it didn't work. The DRM went from being completely unacceptable to still being completely unacceptable.

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

That's a good question. If parents and teachers did teach their kids manners, respect for others, and the like, then perhaps we wouldn't have so much childish behaviour in the world of the kind that led to this lawsuit. (Whether the childish behaviour is on the part of the pirates, the DRM advocates, or both is left as an exercise to the reader.)

Re:simply boycott them

[postmortem]

good luck explaining to your kids that they are not getting the game because of DRM. Publishers need to be punished for these illegal acts directly, that will teach them the best lesson.

Re:simply boycott them

[EvilXenu]

Don't trust anyone under 25" - Sauron

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

"My life is a lie!" - you at 26.

"My life is a cake!" - you, confused, at 26.

"Holy fucking shit i'm a cake" - this post, Score: 5, Funny

Re:simply boycott them

[Sancho]

Whoa whoa whoa--it wasn't all that long ago that I read a story about retail game stores who refused to carry games which don't have DRM. If true, that means that the game stores are at least as culpable as the producers.

Re:simply boycott them

[BoberFett]

Try Galactic Civilizations then. It's turn based strategy, basically Civilization in space.

I tried Sins and didn't like the game at all, GalCiv is more my type of game.

Re:simply boycott them

[LingNoi]

That sounds interesting, I must have missed that. Could you find a link, I'd like to read that.

Re:simply boycott them

[nschubach]

It is DRM because it restricts me from running the application until I either re-install it or activate it. DRM by definition is Digital Copy protection. Google it if you don't trust me:
DRM

DRM is tying the software to a hardware signature, as the sig.bin file does. It is generated off several key points of your system and if any of those change, it asks to re-validate. This is the same as the Windows Update DRM that prevents you from replacing every piece of hardware in your machine without having to re-validate your copy.

It bothers me because they lie about not having DRM when it's pretty clear that they do. I cannot take my game files and copy them to my laptop for instance without having to activate it to run again. I also cannot re-install windows over top of my old installations without re-activating it.

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately since Spore is quite a unique game, the only real alternative is really to pirate (or wait for the console version)!

I know... how about the alternative of not playing it? It's not like playing the latest video games is an innate human right. You're not going to die because you had to skip out on a game that fucks up your computer. Get over it. There's nothing requiring you to play the latest crap spewed out by the "evil" corporations, other than your own greed.

EA makes games with SecuROM. If you don't want to play games with SecuROM, don't play games made by EA. Unless you're some high up manager inside EA, you don't get decide how they make their games. It's really that simple.

Obviously they should tell people the SecuROM is there, but it being there isn't an excuse for breaking the law.

Re:simply boycott them

[Xtravar]

The best music was made in the 80s? Please don't tell me you like all that synth pop crap from the "me" generation.

Unlike such myopic views, my perspective is that music sucked in the 80s, came around in the 90s, is sucking again, and will unsuck soon. It's the cycle of life. I'm not old enough to speak for the decades of 1960 and 1970 but I'm sure there was a suck and unsuck cycle in there as well.

Re:simply boycott them

[Merusdraconis]

I wonder if they remember pirating the hell out of all the games coming from the big studios? I know I did.

Re:simply boycott them

[nschubach]

I am upset about being lied to. Plain and simple. This whole Bill of Gamer's Rights and no-DRM scheme they keep advertising sounds to me like blatant false advertising, deception or fraud. They are using this stance as a platform to sell more games and people are buying into it.

I'd be 6000 times happier if they fessed up and actually stated that they use a very lenient or lax DRM instead of boldly saying they have none.

Re:simply boycott them

[nschubach]

Read my above post and look up the definition of DRM. DRM IS Digital Copy Protection. Period.

Re:simply boycott them

[initialE]

You can't boycott what you've already bought. This lawsuit is over deceptive practices concealing what you really got in that CD-rom you purchased.

Re:simply boycott them

[Falconhell]

Yep. the music industry has in fact been a garbage recycling industry since 1990.

Re:simply boycott them

[Sancho]

I've been looking. The best I can find quickly is this article on ibm.com:
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/web/library/wa-cranky29.html

Search for "refuse to carry"

Re:simply boycott them

[Carrot007]

Unfortunatly like most things it aint black or white.

Music sucked in the 80s is a big statement. Mainstream music in the 80s sucked is somewhat nearer what you hopefully meant.

Synth Pop was not all the 80s was about.

At the begining of the 80s punk was still very much around.

From the mid 80s onwards "inde" was becoming popular.

Metallica started in the early 80s but I am still unable to find their synth pop album.

For the record I like a lot of synth pop also.

Grow up, music comes in 2 forms. Music you like and music you don't. Music you like can be anything, even stuff that you only secretly like because you are not adult enough to admit it yet.

Re:simply boycott them

[WillAffleckUW]

Ah, but it does work.

Hence the slashdot effect, the EFF, and many other fine examples of how such actions result in fixes.

In warfare you don't just use tanks (lawsuits), you use infantry (boycotts), and a whole host of other elements to achieve the objectives.

Most of us which involve the projection of chaos on the enemy and the removal of chaos on your own forces.

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait what? You can't measure a drop in sales of games but you can of Coke? You haven't given any reason (well, you said they're creative products but that doesn't imply much) why they're different.

The reason boycotts don't work is because people don't actually believe in the cause enough. It's all just bandwagon.

Re:simply boycott them

[rahvin112]

You people that keep saying boycotts don't work have no idea what a boycott is. A boycott isn't not buying a product. As an example let me give you a historical reference to a few boycotts. When you boycott something you don't just not purchase it. What you do is not buy the product, tell everyone else not to buy the product and why, and create as much publicity for the boycott as you can.

In the old days before everyone ranting in their basement at their computer screen a boycott involved two things. Not buying the product and making a sign that you then took and stood in front of a store with and explained to shoppers what you were boycotting and why. When the southern Baptists announced their boycott of Disney for giving benefits to same sex couples they didn't just stop going to Disney parks and buying Disney movies and products they made a bunch of signs and picketed in front of Disney World, called the press so they reported on it AND then picketed for months in front of the property. They also leafleted and got in front of the media at every opportunity.

So lets summarize. It's not a boycott unless their is publicity and your Mother is talking to her friends about it over the weekly Bridge game. Without broad publicity a boycott is nothing more than a change in purchase habits and is meaningless. It's not a Boycott if the CEO of the company doesn't know WHY you stopped buying products.

So all you people that keep saying boycotts don't work, you either don't know what a boycott is or you don't understand what's needed to make it a boycott. Properly executed boycotts are often highly successful, only in situations where succumbing to the boycott demands would cost more customers will the boycott fail.

Re:simply boycott them

[tompaulco]

Also:
Emerson, Lake and Palmer
Yes
Richard Wakeman
I'd dare say even Alan Parsons Project.

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

So let me get this straight.

The definition of Digital Rights Management isn't "a mechanism to manage digital rights"?

Let's see what the BBC says: "Digital Rights Management, or DRM, is a class of technologies that allow rights owners to set and enforce terms by which people use their intellectual property."

Hrm. Looks like it to me.

Re:simply boycott them

[neo8750]

No it has its just that someone in a meeting said "hey we should make it so a user has to buy a copy for each device they own so we can double even tripple our profits and we can build that new bigger house"

Greed....

Re:simply boycott them

[fermion]

Boycotting is always an option, but an option with oppotunity costs, just like caving into a publisher. It is right there in the post. The developer cave because it is the only way to get published, and the public cave because it is the only way to get the product. These are trade offs, compromises, and the way the world works. I don't really believe that there are developer or writers or any one out there that truly are forced in commercial deals that are truly against thier values. If one works with a publisher that demands DRM, then the expressed values, that one deserves maximum profit from one's work, are clearly expressed. Likewise, if one buys such a game, then one's values that entertainment is not worth sacrificing for abstract ideals, are clearly expressed.

Boycotting does not work because the opportunity and real costs of not monetizing one's effort, not having the latest HD definition TV, or latest Rianna album, or paying twice as much for shoes to insure that they were not made by slaves, is simply too great. It is really a high level of dishonesty to say otherwise. No one on this planet has a necessity to own a copy of Spore. It is a want, and as a want accurately expresses our values.

Re:simply boycott them

[CodeBuster]

It is DRM because it restricts me from running the application until I either re-install it or activate it

Are you restricted in the number of copies that you can make by repeatedly re-installing the games? I have re-installed the games multiple times on multiple computers, played on multiple computers simultaneously, and downloaded the updates and the games have never complained. I think that the activation is mainly just to keep track of how many times a key has been used on Stardock's servers, but that prohibitions against subsequent installs are not technically enforced (or at least not for any reasonable number of installs) and they have said publicly that there is no copy protection. You could probably set a firewall rule so that the activation program always fails to connect and still play the game indefinitely (I haven't tried that personally, but I suspect that it probably would work). Are you sure that you cannot play the games if you don't activate? At worst, Stardock's DRM is no worse than Steam, which although it is DRM is widely regarded as "fair" (in fact, Stardock is probably even more fair because it allows multiple simultaneous sessions with the same keys).

Re:simply boycott them

[Atheose]

Don't forget the 70's. Led Zeppelin FTW!

Re:simply boycott them

[Original Replica]

Didn't the Sony rootkit thing get cleared up primarily because of a series of class action lawsuits? Boycotts are a rather blunt instrument to use to try to express something like "This game is good, but the DRM sucks", by simply not buying the message is indistinguishable from "This game sucks." A lawsuit very specifically names the issue and is sure to be communicated precisely to the upper management.

Re:simply boycott them

[Original Replica]

Wait what? You can't measure a drop in sales of games but you can of Coke?

Yeah. pretty much. You see Coca-cola and other products,like it have been around for some length of time and established a reasonably consistent market. When they get boycotted, that market share drops and Execs want to know why. With a product like Spore, there is no established market, it's a brand new product. So there is no market share to suddenly shrink, there is only a lack of sales beyond launch. Execs assume the Will Wright has lost his mojo, stop making sandbox games, and go back to cloneing WoW, Halo, and Madden.

Re:simply boycott them

[sortius_nod]

It's not a unique game. It's just like every other life/city/god sim you can think of. The game isn't that great.

Piracy SHOULDN'T be the answer. Invasive DRM is as bad, if not worse, than poorly programed game.

If anyone remembers FADE they'd know what truly fucked copy protection is. I had an original version of both Operation Flashpoint and the first expansion pack. I loved it. Until fade kicked in. I bought the game, but Codemasters FADE system decided that I wasn't. Gameplay degraded to the level where it was impossible to play.

I boycotted Codemasters for ages, didn't help. It was only when FADE received enough (almost any customer with ability to write) complaints that it was canned.

I for one refuse to buy this game due to the intrusive DRM. While I'm no Valve fanboy, I REALLY like Steam. It's the ultimate DRM without being fucked about it.

True, you need a decent internet connection, and need to be prepared for it to crash occasionally, but at least it doesn't fuck with the rest of my computer. I can reinstall windows on a different drive to the install and just run it. No install, nothing. It just works.

I can backup my games to disc, I can take them to a friend's house, install them, play them. Hell, even leave them installed and let the friend play when I'm not on.

Re:simply boycott them

[Rekolitus]

I generally find that DRM can be defined as any type of copy protection that incorporates a network authorization or revocation element. This doesn't include simple CD checks, but does include any form of activation against a central authority.

A DRM mechanism does not become something else just because the central authority chooses (for the time being) to not make full use of it's capacity to 'manage digital rights'. Simply having the mechanism there, dormant, ready to be activated is enough to construe a DRM mechanism.

Spore's activations limit was increased from 3 to 5. Stardock apparently places no limit on the number of times their games can be activated, but this is logically distinct from not having the capacity to impose such a limit at a later time. The capacity is certainly there.

If Stardock games have to activate with Stardock, then Stardock has the means to deny activation, and, ultimately, prevent an owner of their product from using it as they see fit. Even if they never use their power in this way, it exists, ergo (updated) Stardock games incorporate DRM.

Re:simply boycott them

[Polybius]

Also try Godspeed You! Black Emperor, Explosions in the Sky, Kinski and Talkdemonic

Re:simply boycott them

[the_B0fh]

And you think Gamestop corporate management isn't going to notice people returning the games un-opened?

And you don't think they will be pissed, and send the message back to EA?

I guarandamntee you it would. And they would notice.

The supply/logistics people keep close tabs on shit like this, and the return rates are tracked closely.

Re:simply boycott them

[Internalist]

Try Isis and Mastodon (Meshuggah if you lean harder),

Why has no one mentioned Tool yet in this thread? I saw both Meshuggah and Isis open for Tool (Meshuggah on Lateralus tour, Isis on 10,000 Days). Meshuggah == great & really heavy, Isis == meh (a bit too meandering for my tastes).

BUT. Tool is probably the contemporary band that is your best bet for an initial foray into Prog Metal. Great lyrics (suitably obscure as a rule, and yet somehow generally interpretable), and outstanding musicianship.

Just my 2 senses.
 

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

On the other hand, they could get greedy and charge 20$ for the rental version and 100$ for the "enhanced"(DRM-free) version and we'd be back to square one of the EA suckfest :(

Would we?

We keep saying that we're willing to pay a premium for non-DRM-cripped products.

Maybe they'd see that they sold more units at $100 than they rented at $20. (Same as eMusic and Amazon's DRM-free MP3 service are successful, and with the sole exception of iTunes, the DRM-based music retailers are all dead and gone. The market spoke; we'd rather pay $1 per individual DRM-free track, than pay $15/month for a DRM-hobbled service, even if the $15/mo service is all-you-can-download.

Back go EA and the $100 price point for a DRM-free game... well, the next company to release its product would rent at $10 and sell at $50, and might have no piracy problem whatsoever.

EA would then be forced to become price-competitive. EA wins (it no longer has to pay SecuROM for licensing). EA's competitors win (they're also not hobbled). Gamers win (because DRM sucks). DRM vendors like SecuROM are the only losers here (fuck 'em.)

Re:simply boycott them

[xZgf6xHx2uhoAj9D]

You're only fucking over Gamestop if Gamestop chooses to be fucked over.

When you return a DRM game to Gamestop, Gamestop loses money on that. They can then continue to buy DRM games and continue getting fucked over or they can refuse to stock DRM games and continue being profitable. It's up to them.

Re:simply boycott them

[Red Flayer]

I'd also add Yes (particularly the early stuff), Genesis (only the early stuff), and ELP.

Or, go to Pandora.com and check out some of the prog rock shared stations people have created.

Mine is not strictly prog rock, as I've added XTC to the seeds to get some variety... sometimes it goes off on a post-punk tangent, which I kind of like (though most prog rock fans might be appalled).

It's creatively :) named "Red Flayer's Prog Rock".

Or just create your own station and seed it with a couple prog rock core groups, like Floyd, Zep, and King Crimson.

Re:simply boycott them

[SHaFT7]

dream theater and rush ftw!

Re:simply boycott them

[Red Flayer]

Maybe it's just me, but Isis and Mastodon seem to be just classic thrash revivalists... I mean really, wasn't Slayer doing the same stuff a decade or two ago? Just my honest opinion, maybe I'm not catching some of the subtleties -- and also IMO, it sure beats the hell out of Nu Metal or whatever it's called.

To me, prog metal == classic thrash.

Prog rock is a whole different can of beans.

Re:simply boycott them

[oldhack]

Water your lawn, geezer.

Re:simply boycott them

[mjwx]

Buy and return it, explain why you are returning it. Shows that you had interest but are not willing to support the policies.

No, no it wont. Let me explain how retail works, the publisher (Producer) sells to a warehouse (distributor) who then resells and transports the product to a store (Retailer). So the game has already been sold as far as the publishers concerned and they have already chalked up the sale and reported it the their shareholders. The only person you are hurting here is the retailer, who is at least 2 companies removed from the publisher, whilst have no love for the rip-off merchants at EBgames they are not responsible for DRM and should not be targeted for it.

Re:simply boycott them

[Red Flayer]

Economy 101: Boycotts do not work in a monopoly or oligopoly market.

That's not true. If a game developer's business side determines that [lost sales from piracy] would be less than [lost sales from DRM disgruntlement], they would release their game without DRM. The problem is that piracy "losses" are often overestimated... though from personal experience, I can guarantee that the analysts know losses are overstated, but sing a different song in order to get the legislation they want.

Doesn't matter though, PC games will follow the same path as the music industry, they are just behind a few years. We'll get massive piracy, an unwillingness to have online distribution, then an acceptance of DRM in order to get our games cheaply and easily (a la iTunes). The big problem with Spore is that the DRM is poorly implemented.

The only lesson learned from this fiasco will be to have less intrusive DRM on games... it's not going away. What the game execs are hearing is "I won't buy it because the DRM is a PITA". They are not hearing "I won't buy it because I don't like DRM".

Re:simply boycott them

[oracle128]

If people actually did boycott, instead of just succumbing to piracy and calling it a boycott, that wouldn't happen. That's the only reason boycotts don't work.

Re:simply boycott them

[tedu_again]

But the game isn't really sold to the retailer, no more than a book is sold to a bookstore. They're just holding on to it for the publisher. Why do you think there's that notice in every book about being sold without a cover? If it were sold-sold at every point, it'd make no difference. But the reality is it's given to the retailer as an advance. They can either sell it or ship it back.

Re:simply boycott them

[hubie]

You certainly evidence your age if you think the children of the 80's are the "me" generation. There is a whole over-hyped group that wore that mantel proud. Interesting enough, the children of that generation are being labeled with that same descriptor with all the self-absorbed websites and blogs.

If you want suck genres for the 60s and 70s, my votes are bubblegum rock and disco.

Re:simply boycott them

[minus-sign]

and do the same for any other DRM laden product, it'll teach the manufacturers quickly to stay away from DRM.

I rather doubt that boycotting EA will have the effect that some believe. Boycotting seems more like sticking your head in the sand in my opinion. It adds nothing to the discussion except to scream "I have nothing to add." We seem to be a society that wants everything. But we want it at the cheapest price possible. And what could be cheaper than free? Good DRM has a place. In theory, it prevents people who want what they shouldn't have from taking it. SecuROM, on the other hand, is malware. It is something the FTC should be ripping out of EA's hands so they have to use responsible DRMs.

Re:simply boycott them

[Dgawld]

i LOVE superfluous lyrics!!11

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but come on, equating boycotting video games and the early days of the civil rights movement is gold. Where is BadAnalogyGuy when you need him?

Re:simply boycott them

[kaizokuace]

I really hope they know their products are shit. Otherwise they are the most arrogant pricks in the world! I can understand that they are trying to do everything possible to make money while curbing risk (i.e. investment in a project). Being fucked up to everyone is the way to make large amounts of money. There really is no prettying it up.

Re:simply boycott them

[Hal_Porter]

Boycotting is fine if you can manage the sacrifice yourself. But if you still want the game, but you would just rather not see malware attached in future editions, a suit works out better -- hits them, potentially, in the wallet due to the settlement and negative image portrayal.

So buy the game and download the cracked version and use that instead.

Re:simply boycott them

[denmarkw00t]

Yes, and boycotting doesn't directly address the issue. The public needs to make it plainly clear that we will not accept hidden DRM apps with our software/music/movies/toaster ovens (its heading in that direction!!!), or else we'll be constantly boycotting products to no end - the Industry doesn't care about a handful of people not buying, as at least twice as many won't care/know the danger.

Re:simply boycott them

[Hal_Porter]

Describing them explicitly as "rentals" might dissipate some ire on the limited-installs thing, but it would in no way excuse the practice of PERMANENTLY installing malware on the user's machine, which is what this suit is about.

I dunno, as a Windows geek disassembling and reverse engineering the FREE root kit is often much more fun to me than the game.

Re:simply boycott them

[gacl]

GP meant the 1790's. Kids nowadays.

Yes, it's true. That's why when you go to college to study music you study Bach and Mozart and not Devo or Flock Of Seagulls.

Re:simply boycott them

[fullgandoo]

I think you meant to say, "60s and 70s". Pink Floyd, Led Zepplin, Doors, Beatles, Elvis . . .

Re:simply boycott them

[kaizokuace]

what are digital rights? these "rights" they speak of are the copyrights owned by the publisher/developer/etc. Not the rights of the customer! DRM is a means to enforce their copyrights (i.e. copy protection). Any technology they use to keep people from copying their product is DRM. Even if we were to agree somehow that DRM was ok, there should be some legal restrictions on how this technology can be implemented.

Re:simply boycott them

[kurzweilfreak]

Shameless plug here: Abigail's Ghost :)

Let me know what you think and come see us at ROS Fest in 2009. :D

Re:simply boycott them

[kurzweilfreak]

Forgot to mention, we're completely RIAA-free also. Completely self-funded and self-owned. :)

Re:simply boycott them

[rtb61]

Well in this case it is EA who are stealing your copyright. Your right to sell the copyright licence you paid, bored with then game, EA are trying to steal your ability to sell it to someone else in the second hand market, exactly how disingenuous is this amazon web page http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000FKBCX4/sr=/qid=/ref=olp_tab_used?ie=UTF8&coliid=&me=&qid=&sr=&seller=&colid=&condition=used.

As EA does not clearly indicate the limitations they enforce on resale on the cover, they should be subject to a class action law suit and pay the penalty.

Re:simply boycott them

[GumphMaster]

Do you really think the average games outlet aggregates reasons for returns (in the limited places they will actually accept a return) and passes them upstream? I would not bet on it.

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

The point of the lawsuit doesn't seem to be the DRM itself.

The point is that consumers have an expectation of what a program will do and it's influenced by what's on the outside of the box, since that's all you get to see when you buy the game. The lawsuit seems to make the point that the DRM software is not described on the outside of the box, and that a reasonable consumer would not expect the DRM to work they way it does without reading a description.

Basically, it's like there's a breakfast cereal flavored with a bleach/sugar blend called "Blucrose". The box might have a tiny logo in the corner that says the product contains "Blucrose", but most consumers won't know what that means and will buy the product only to discover it contains poison.

(I am well aware that I may have just created the best anti-DRM analogy ever, and welcome the widespread use of the term "Blucrose" to explain and describe overactive DRM.)

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll second Isis -- my favorite doom/post-metal band! These Arms Are Snakes, also pretty excellent.

Last.fm is the best service ever.

Re:simply boycott them

[Shatrat]

Steam has a bigger problem.
When you're tired of one game you can't sell it or give it away without doing the same with ALL of your Steam games, or using a separate account for each game.
Whenever possible I avoid purchasing games through Steam if they are available otherwise.

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

Since when have boycotts ever been silent?

They work if the people boycotting are a significant segment of their market, however they often aren't.

Don't impose your will on others, because of your percieved "injustice".

DRM is fine if they want it to have DRM, they will learn.

I know many people who haven't bought it because of that.

Re:simply boycott them

[Des Herriott]

Metallica started in the early 80s but I am still unable to find their synth pop album.

Synth Pop up Your Ass is one of their more obscure recordings, it's true.

Re:simply boycott them

[Kokuyo]

Keeping in mind that in my, what, 16 years of playing games on a PC I've yet to actually sell a game, that doesn't really concern me much.

Re:simply boycott them

[Diamo]

I don't know exactly how it works or even if this is total mis-information but honestly the DRM is non-existent as far as the end-user is concerned. Sure, you use their server to download the game but you are free to do whatever you like after that. This is the same as needing a CD to install the game only instead it's needing the internet. Would you complain that a game has DRM because it comes on a CD?! I may have missed the point here becasue it's 8 in the morning :)

They abide by their Gamers Bill of Rights, do you really think they'd be so stupid as to release that at a time when there is a massive backlash against EA (a calculated move) when they were in breach of the 'Rights' themselves?!

Re:simply boycott them

[Diamo]

Yeah, I have to agree with you here. I would also say that the PC has been a proving ground for many a console feature. If EA demonstrate this can work then perhaps in future games will tie themselves to your console in much the same way only because of the nature of firmware updates pushed from the manufacturers they could switch this on mid-cycle of their console to try it out. EA have a lot of leverage in the industry and I'm sure a lot of publishers would love 100% closed platforms. If we allow PCs to become 'closed' then consoles will quickly follow.

This may of course be wild paranoia and speculation, I haven't really thought this argument through :)

Re:simply boycott them

[Tom]

That's not true. If a game developer's business side determines that [lost sales from piracy] would be less than [lost sales from DRM disgruntlement], they would release their game without DRM.

It ain't happening, which is good evidence that there's something wrong with that reasoning.

I figure it is that they never actually make that calculation, and for good reasons: It can't be made without relying too much on guesswork. There is no objective way to know "lost sales from piracy". The PR department might claim every download is a lost sale, but someone who actually calculates a number wouldn't assume that. Likewise, there is no way to know "lost sales from DRM disgruntlement" because what happened with Spore is a first. Usually, these are silent losses. Even with Amazon reviews in the thousands, you can not figure out how many people really did not buy because of the DRM. It could be lower than the Amazon count (people like to complain and buy anyways) or it could be way higher (people who decided not to buy because of the DRM, but without leaving a review).

It's absolutely a shot in the dark, and if I were the board, I'd ask hard questions of a CEO who makes decisions based on what's basically just a hunch.

Doesn't matter though, PC games will follow the same path as the music industry, they are just behind a few years. We'll get massive piracy, an unwillingness to have online distribution, then an acceptance of DRM in order to get our games cheaply and easily (a la iTunes).

Very unlikely. Games and music are different in crucial aspects. One is that people are much more likely to be fans of a music band or singer, and buy their stuff no matter what. Very few people are fans of specific designers or developers to the point of buying their next game unseen. But then again, in games you have sequels, something that's very, very rare in the music business.
More importantly, however, games are software while CDs are not. It is easier to load them with DRM, which is why it's being done.
Most important, however, gaming is moving into online gaming a lot. That opens up new business models. MMORPGs don't have a piracy problem. Expect more games to be online games for that reason alone.

The only lesson learned from this fiasco will be to have less intrusive DRM on games... it's not going away. What the game execs are hearing is "I won't buy it because the DRM is a PITA". They are not hearing "I won't buy it because I don't like DRM".

I totally agree.

More, even, that is the message that customers are sending. I don't think there would've been a comparable uprising if the DRM had been a simple CD check, or something like it.

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

I know what FADE was, but didn't ever know what FADE dit.Maybe I have had your same problem, with soldiers killing me from miles away, but I'm not sure if that was the copy protection or just I being unluky.

Re:simply boycott them

[Omestes]

I forgot Tool deliberately. Everyone knows who Tool is, and has probably formed an opinion on them by now. This isn't discrediting them, their one of the few bands that have matured well (See also Trent Reznor).

I also forgot (inadvertently) The Mars Volta, they are truly brilliant, its almost hard to believe that its 9/10s of a crappy Emo band.

Re:simply boycott them

[zeneke]

Well maybe as some people say, the beycott wont work.

But the my funny experience is:

My little bro (wich is 12 old) was very exited about the game, he even bought the spore creator, but he wont buy the game because he heard something about malware been installed.

So thats 1 copy less sold at least

Re:simply boycott them

[dintech]

In all seriousness, good luck with that. I hope against all probability that this actually goes somewhere. At least the negative publicity is good.

Re:simply boycott them

[powerspike]

The is one huge difference inbetween consoles and pc's in which you totaly bypass. With Consoles, when you leave, you take the game with you. With PC's, you install the game, and leave a copy ON the pc. With a console disk, goto 12 friend's places, still one copy of the game. With a PC disk, goto 12 friend's places, and you got 12 copies of the game, This is what they are trying to protect against. I don't like it, or agree with it, but it's that type thing they are trying to protect themselves from.

Re:simply boycott them

[ciderVisor]

"My life is a cake!"

That's a lie.

Re:simply boycott them

[getuid()]

Buy and return it, explain why you are returning it. Shows that you had interest but are not willing to support the policies.

Right, good luck with that! :-)

Re:simply boycott them

[BurningFeetMan]

Regarding Spore game play, it's probably one of the worst games that I've ever played. Don't write me off as a "hardcore gamer" either. I simply know a good game when I'm playing one, and Spore ain't good. Needless to say it's the last time I buy anything from either EA or Maxis.

Re:simply boycott them

[Rogerborg]

Agreed, but then only use Steam to purchase games with a lot of replay value (or a cost so small there's no worthwhile resale value anyway). Half Life: Source is still fun to play through again, and being able to do so on any machine, anywhere, at any time, is a definite USP.

Re:simply boycott them

[KlausBreuer]

I'd love to do this.

However, here in Germany, you cannot return an opened computer game, plain and simple.
Another reason I hardly buy any games these days. Besides, I have quite a few nice (old) games, and I find interesting Indies on the net; prefere to support these (money goes directly, 100%, to the developers).

Re:simply boycott them

[somersault]

You're preaching to the converted. Though I never had an issue with Operation Flashpoint. Steam is indeed awesome and is a good way to do DRM. Being able to download your games to any system and not have to put in the discs to play is highly convenient.

Re:simply boycott them

[somersault]

EA is a publisher, not a developer (for the most part). Rock Band is an EA game (which was a surprise to me) and it's definitely worth it..

Re:simply boycott them

[FishAdmin]

"My life is a cake!" - you, confused, at 26.

"My cake is alive!" - you, at 26, after eating a Guatemalan Insanity Pepper.

Re:simply boycott them

[arktemplar]

Tool for progressive, and like OP said - King Crimson as well. For something more interesting try the post rock genre like god is an astronaut or something.

Re:simply boycott them

[FishAdmin]

I don't buy that argument about console DRM. Sure, its hard(er) to burn games on consoles but there is one stark difference with more or less all console games: I can eject my disc, take it to my mates house, pop it in his console and play it there. I can also re sell my used games and there is an avid market for this, hell the two biggest ps3 titles this year have been available for swap for "6 used ps2 games" at many stores around the place.

DRM on the PC exists explicitly to prevent you from doing any of this. I don't see why.

First off, you make some excellent points, and I agree with all of them. However, your question above, "why can't I take my disc to a friends house and play it on pc, but I can on console?" is pretty easy, actually: Because there are ways to play the game WITHOUT the disc on PCs. If you're playing Fable on your Xbox, you need the Fable disc in there the whole time. However, if you're playing Fable on your PC, you can get around that with a cracked exe, because on PCs you actually INSTALL the game, not just "run" it. That, my friend, is the major difference. I'm not saying it's right, because I firmly believe that I have every right to play a PC game that I paid for WITHOUT the freakin' disc in my drive! The difference is, though, that you CAN'T take that game to your friends house, pop in his Playstation 3, then take it home and you BOTH still being able to play it. However, if you take a PC game there, install it for him, patch the exe to a cracked "NO CD" version, then you can BOTH play it at the same time, on different computers, and NEITHER of you needs the disc. Just my $.02.

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

This merely represents how out of touch the music companies are to the realities of the industry today.

What the consumers want is content, but the companies do not want to sell content(music), they are trying to sell a single piece of media(cd/dvd/tape/etc) like they have always done.
If they cannot change their business practices they will sooner or later fall like dinosaurs fell as they were not able to adapt to the altered circumstances...

Re:simply boycott them

[somersault]

Wow. Nice rant there. I haven't played it, and I don't care if I miss out on it. It doesn't even sound like it has any interesting stuff like actual natural selection type evolution - everything is done manually. I'd like a game where the creatures were able to mutate and evolve through natural selection, possible to adapt to environments or something like that. That would be interesting (if it wasn't too contrived).

Re:simply boycott them

[calmofthestorm]

The Sony rootkit created major security flaws, hence the lawsuit. As in, exploited ones. Dunno if SecuROM does too.

Re:simply boycott them

[Mateo_LeFou]

"My life is pants"
Most of us, always

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

It really depends on what need the game is used to fill.
If it is entertainment, the substitute product doesn't need to be a game. It can be a walk, beer, tv-show, movie, talk with a friend, date, sports or even sleep.
The problem with measuring loses in entertainment is that there are an endless list of substituting products. I rather find it funny how game companies are writing down their lost revenue to piracy, while their own business procedures enforce the competitiveness of countless of competitors, not just the 1:1 replecements...

Re:simply boycott them

[Taagehornet]

Don't trust anyone under 25" -- John Holmes

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

And this is why we should encourage our representatives in congress to rather make monopolies shorter than longer to let the market forces make this a more effective market.

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

"There will be cake" - advice from people over 25

Re:simply boycott them

[TheLink]

But but but, that might mean getting out of the basement!

The sun, burns us it does!

Re:simply boycott them

[nschubach]

If you don't activate it, it will not run. It relies on that sig.bin file and if it's missing, it will as you to validate your copy.

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish they'd make an RPG. I've been hearing about Stardock for months and would love to become a customer... but I loathe RTSes.

This sounds somewhat close to what you're asking for (although not exactly)...
http://www.stardock.com/vidplayer/vids/dg.html
http://totalgaming.stardock.com/games/?id=demi

Re:simply boycott them

[nschubach]

But you can't do what you like with it after you download it. I tried copying all the files to another computer and it would not run. I also ran into this problem one of the many times I re-installed my Windows box. It would not run after re-installing windows. Period. I would have to install the Stardock software to activate it or re-install the game to validate it.

Re:simply boycott them

[Diamo]

Fair enough but loads of games can't simply be copied across and still run. That's the norm not the exception. It not working after re-installing windows, I'm sure, is a bug not DRM. Just reinstall the game, your rights are not affected.

Re:simply boycott them

[nschubach]

...but it does work if you validate it after copying the files. The window that pops up even says "Validate" at the top. Thus it does get in the way.

Re:simply boycott them

[Diamo]

Well OK, I can see your point but it is unusual for a game to work if you just copy over the files. Normally you would need to re-install from the CD so is this not effectivly swapping the disc for an Internet connection? It doesn't limit the number of installs and it doesn't in any way affect your rights. I presume it's just for data collection. Which you may take exception to.

Re:simply boycott them

[geminidomino]

Ugh. That's why I hate video game trailers. I doubt any of that is actual gameplay footage (at least, I hope not. That much camera spinning and even a hardcore gamer is gonna yak on his kit).

Looks cool as hell though.

The second link makes me worry though. Looks great until "Future plans include downloadable content". Hope it's not going to be "horse barding" all over again.

Still, thanks for the hint. I'll definitely look into it in 6 months.

Re:simply boycott them

[mweather]

Boycotts are not about press coverage. Companies don't care if they take a beating in the press if everyone is still buying their product.

Re:simply boycott them

[mweather]

First they'll have to convince a judge that using a copy protection scheme that has been used in scores of other games, and has already been in court and found legal (other than when it damages your PC) is suddenly illegal.

Re:simply boycott them

[Pvt_Ryan]

Ironically in the case of op flashpoint I had a hooky copy and it worked fine.. :/

But then again that is what drives people to pirate.
If you tell me that I can buy a game for £30 but only install it 3 times then I have to buy another copy. 1 of 2 things will happen.
1. I will buy the game and the when my installs run out download a pirate copy.
2. I will just skip buying the game and get the pirate copy.

DRM only punishes the legit people. For jebus's sake Spore was cracked before it was released in the majority of the world.

That being said, I don't mind simple cdchecks, serial keys and even 1 time activations with NO LIMITS.

Re:simply boycott them

[Pvt_Ryan]

Trust noone! ;)

Re:simply boycott them

[spire3661]

You can if you are running XP VLK version. (no, its not a pirate version)

Re:simply boycott them

[Deagol]

Excellent idea! Good, paying customers *should* be forced to jump through extra hoops to get a quality gaming experience. If I wanted to piss away of my time fixing a problem that shouldn't exist to begin with, I'd just, you know, download the game -- crack and all -- to begin with.

Re:simply boycott them

[hesiod]

> I'd like a game where the creatures were able to mutate and evolve through natural selection

Then it would be a movie... A very long, and very boring movie. Unless you played an alien that introduced new predators and problems for the animals to overcome; but of course, that wouldn't be natural selection.

Re:simply boycott them

[hesiod]

I pretty much enjoyed it up through civilization, each stage getting progressively worse, but the space stage is alternately horribly annoying and terribly boring.

Re:simply boycott them

[ferat]

Don't open it. I bought Spore, took it home, stared at it for about two days trying to decide if my desire to play it outweighed my disgust with EA, then returned it unopened.

Re:simply boycott them

[Dog-Cow]

Isn't the point of DRM to stop piracy? If they blame lost sales on piracy, they are admitting the DRM isn't doing anything anyway except piss off customers.

Re:simply boycott them

[somersault]

It wouldn't have to be long if the generations went quickly. I admit it isn't the most game like idea in the world - it would perhaps be better called a simulation than a game.

It could be turned into a game if you were able to do stuff like introduce predators as you say, and perhaps change the terrain and atmosphere and so on to try to fulfil certain challenges, that kind of thing. You could have a mode where you can only set certain initial conditions and then watch it like a movie afterwards, and see if everything progresses to beat the challenge. I don't think it would be that boring anyway, and the mechanism of evolution itself would still be through natural selection even if you have contrived the circumstances yourself :)

Re:simply boycott them

[xrobertcmx]

I don't know. There is enough noise about the DRM, so in this case Will Wright may be the one standing in some execs office screaming. Something else interesting is that if you read Forbes, the level of piracy can be fairly well modeled. They know to a degree how many and how quickly the copies will be downloaded. Spore didn't follow those models at all. So, the companies that monitor that knew right away that something was off. At the end of week one, Spore had already exceeded a full month of downloads for similar large launch games.

Re:simply boycott them

[bobdotorg]

There are a lot of good games that don't sell as well as they should.

No kidding. I've heard through the grapevine that Duke Nukem Forever hasn't even sold one copy yet!

C'mon - say it like a marketing spinmeister: Duke Nuke'em forever has sold every copy ever made, and we forecast zero excess channel inventory for at least another few quarters. Furthermore, consumer satisfaction has been so high, that we've not had even one return.

Re:simply boycott them

[xrobertcmx]

It was in the Washington Post and Forbes.

Re:simply boycott them

[n7kv]

That's why you take the hose with you when you water your lawn! "GIT OFF ME LAWN YE GODLESS BRATS!" followed by a sufficient dowsing is generally enough.

Re:simply boycott them

[xrobertcmx]

You mean, there are other places then my basement? I don't go to those places anymore.

Re:simply boycott them

[xrobertcmx]

I don't think that really covers it. What we have here is one game. Sort of the Coke or Pepsi thing. If enough people just don't buy Spore but keep buying games in general, then someone will get the idea. To further refine it, if consumers keep buying non-DRM'ed games (Sins of a Solar Empire) then EA will definitely get the clue. Spore is just one game among many, and it has DRM. So do Mass Effect, the upcomming Command and Conquer, and I don't know the status of Bioshock anymore. One key item though is to not buy it regardless of platform. It doesn't do any good to buy the PS3 version and ignore the PC, that just leads the execs to think PC gaming is dead and thus stop developing for one platform and save the subsequent development costs.

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

"Don't trust anyone under 25" - Everybody over 25 ;)

This is actually the point of the quote in Cory Doctorow's book, Little Brother. All the old folks say that the young people don't know anything and can't be trusted, so the kids say "Don't trust anyone over 25!"

Good book, I highly reccomend it.

Re:simply boycott them

[hesiod]

I guess boring is a matter of presentation and preference. I should have said I would find it boring. Of course, I also think flight sims are gut-wrenchingly tedious, and tons of people love them to death.

For some reason your description reminded me of a "game" that used to be on some UNIX boxes, and I thought it was called "life", but I can't seem to find any mention of it after a (very) quick googling. Basically, you gave it some simple input data (blocks of color) and then it played like a movie as it followed certain preset rules to evolve. It sounds really stupid... and it was, but it was neat to watch a couple times. I know that's not very similar to what you describe, but I felt like mentioning it for some reason.

Re:simply boycott them

[JD-1027]

I've never used my right to protest against the government. That doesn't mean it's not something we should constantly fight to keep.

Re:simply boycott them

[harl]

Go read up a bit. Burning games for the 360 is trivial. Dual Layer DVD burner and http://www.imgburn.com/ (completely free) or any other software that lets you pick a custom layer break and alter the book type.

Heck there's even easy to use gui based programs that will let you take ISOs of games from outside regions and allow them to be used in your region.

As an added bonus private trackers seem to have all the big games 2-4 days before release.

The first thing the industry needs to do is get rid of street dates. With the current method the time before a launch is just boring. Everyone knows where a same will be for sale and when. The only excitement possible is from the pirates. Billy knows that the game is only available on the 12th so the pirate friend who downloads it is novel and cool.

If they were to get rid of street dates and just announce that the game is done and working it's way through the distribution channels it would generate more buzz about the game. People would spend their time looking for it and talking about where they saw it. More hype is good. Especially in the first weeks.

It would allow the legal purchaser to be cool for finding it early rather than the pirate.

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but there are no alternatives in most cases, because mainstream publishers insist on DRM. Sure there's the occasional title that bucks the trend, but generally they remain convinced that ever-more invasive DRM is neccessary.

In fairness copy protection isn't entirely wrong; make it trivial to copy a game for your friends and many average users will do so. Publishers should be looking at raising the bar enough to deter such casual copying, but no more than that: limited online activations, rootkitting the system with performance-reducing drivers starforce style etc are all counterproductive since they hurt your legitimate customers far more than the dedicated pirates they're aimed at, who just go and grab a cracked release off IRC / bittorrent. Keep it up and those customers won't be far behind, having been made to feel like suckers for paying for a product that's actually inferior to the free release.

Re:simply boycott them

[lordmage]

I know this is kinda offtopic but...

DRM just is crazy. I have Galactic Civilizations 2 and Sins of a Solar Empire. Now I end up installing the "Impulse" to get an "update" for my software. It requires I place the Codekey in and manages it for me. Its great in that sense that I can download the game again if I need too... however.. The Impulse itself is pretty bad. It keeps trying to download the Update to GC2 and says "Application is larger than expected" and times out. I am unable to get an update for a product I own because of the portal.

I tell you, The reasons you purchase software is getting less and less clear for me.

Re:simply boycott them

[lordmage]

and then it constantly fails to connect, and fails to download the update due to various reasons. Sigh...

Re:simply boycott them

[dogmatixpsych]

The new crap is just as good as the old crap.

I disagree with the GP post though. Because we have exposure to more music now than we did in the 80s and 90s through the internet, you can find all the really good bands/artists. I grew up in the 80s and 90s and love music from those eras but my favorite music (other than The Beatles, of course) is all current - Guster, Muse, Brandi Carlile, Yellowcard, etc. If you limit yourself to what's on the radio then modern music isn't terribly exciting (although I'd argue that it's just as good as it used to be as long as you don't get so stuck on particular artists or styles that you can't change). The thing is, as I already said, that we have access to a lot more artists and can find the really good ones.

Artists are writing very complex and well-written music today; more so than in the 90s. Any style goes today; you frequently find infusions of bluegrass or classical, for example, in modern pop-rock music. I think artists can have a lot more creativity because they are not as locked into the traditional music distribution system as they used to be.

Re:simply boycott them

[HiThere]

OK. If they disclose what they're doing and what it means to all customers BEFORE they pay their money, then that's an acceptable answer. Otherwise not.

Presuming, as claimed, that this mechanism is undisclosed before purchase, and what it does is also undisclosed, then I hope the suit is both successful and expensive.

Re:simply boycott them

[Djehuty3]

Well, I personally have had no problems with impulse.

Well, ok, that's a lie. Sometimes when it opens, it gets stuck at login, and needs to be killed. but that's rare (for me)(this is under Vista Home Premium, so you know).

Hell, I had my friend install his copy of Sins on my machine, and Impulse has noted it, added it to the list of games, and at no point has requested any kind of serial.

Re:simply boycott them

[HiThere]

DID the Sony rootkit thing ever get cleaned up?
If you think so, why do you think so?

IMNHO, Sony never cleaned up the mess they made, millions of people were victimized, many totally unknowning about what happened, and Sony just swept the mess under the rug and waited for the fuss to die down.

That whole affair was Sony abusing their dominant position to inflict harm and suffering on other while suffering only negligible costs to themselves. If you trust them after that, ... were I religious I'd say "God help you, because nobody else can."

Re:simply boycott them

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

They work if the people boycotting are a significant segment of their market, however they often aren't.

They can't if they cannot distinguish a boycott from a slow economy, piracy, lack of interest, etc.

Don't impose your will on others, because of your percieved "injustice".

Making oneself heard != imposing your will. You're free to disagree and argue for DRM if you like.

DRM is fine if they want it to have DRM, they will learn.

Are you saying you're pro-DRM? (IF that's the case, I'd love to hear why.) Or are you saying "shaddup, I'm sick of hearing about it." (In that case, grow up.)

Re:simply boycott them

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

One-Star reviews on Amazon worked to do what exactly?

They changed their policy. Not enough, I'd say, but it did cause a rather rapid change.

There's no way to demonstrate that, without the DRM, any of those reviewers would have bought the game.

That obviously didn't matter. What did matter was the review looked grim, thus notifying potential customers of the problem with their software. A few negative reviews obviously went a LOT farther than a bunch of people sitting around not buying it.

Re:simply boycott them

[mstahl]

doti: 1

Kaboom13: 0

Good shot.

Re:simply boycott them

[jacquesm]

the alternative is to simply NOT PLAY, what's so hard about that. Is life so boring now that gameplaying is a must, even if it means being sold stuff that basically takes over your machine and/or installs all kinds of shit that have nothing to do with the game ?

Re:simply boycott them

[somersault]

I kind of know what you mean, I think I have even seen that too a long time ago on an old Linux distro or some Mac shareware (but didn't really get what was happening).

I know that genetic/evolutionary algorithms are about finding answers to computing problems rather than for simulating biological evolution, but hearing those phrases tends to make me think about a game that simulates genetics and evolution.

I do find some flight sims fun (the original A10 Attack was probably my favourite) interesting, and I love driving sims etc. It is pretty personal. I'm sure people who were interested enough to actually study biology would find an evolutionary simulation even more interesting than me.

Re:simply boycott them

[daver00]

All things being equal, no you typically can't play a pc game without the disc in the drive, that is unless of course you crack it as you point out. But then as I said all things being equal you can do the same with a 360 or ps3 by just ripping the game to your hard drive and cracking it. So while you make a good point you are not really comparing apples with apples.

Re:simply boycott them

[Anonymous Coward]

there is also the problem that the publshier is often the one dictating the DRM not the developer, in fact the developers are often against it, but they can't really do much about it.

Of course they can do something about it! It's called "choosing a publisher that doesn't use DRM". Nobody held a gun to the head of the developer when they chose which publisher to use, so the idea that "they can't really do much about it" is utter crap.

Where do I sign

[BlowHole666]

Where do I go to sign up to be a part of this. Anything to pound EA in the ass.

Re:Where do I sign

[mepperpint]

Where do I go to sign up to be a part of this. Anything to pound EA in the ass.

Typically you need only purchase the product to be a member of the class. If the lawsuit is successful then the court will require that the company, in this case EA, notify you of the case and the resolution so that you can get your part. In this case that means purchasing a copy of Spore and hoping that the lawsuit is successful. Given the way these things go, however, you'll almost certainly hurt EA more by not buying Spore in the first place. The compensation is likely to be far less than the cost of Spore and may well come in part in coupons for future purchases or other mostly worthless things...

Re:Where do I sign

[Gordonjcp]

I smoked pot once. But I DID NOT inhale. Will you hire me?

You fail the drugs test. Why would I hire someone who can't figure out how to toke a joint?

Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure how much good will come of this, but I just can't stand EA. They don't care about the gamer.
Oh look, time to play some Madden 09 on my 360, w00t :)

About time

[krovisser]

If It didn't have the DRM, I would have bought it instead of pirated it. Although, I am somewhat considering purchasing it. Maybe when it goes down to $30 instead of 9 thousand.

Undisclosed?

[fractic]

While I despise DRM, I'm quite sure that the EULA mentions secuROM. Of course Melissa Thomas, like most people, didn't bother to actually read it before agreeing to it.

Re:Undisclosed?

[Anonymous Coward]

And the EULA is printed on the outside of the box?

Re:Undisclosed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you read the EULA without purchasing and beginning the install process? No.

Can you return the software after opening it, starting the install and then declining the EULA after seeing it uses securom? No.

Re:Undisclosed?

[AndyG314]

I'm sure they mention it in the ELUA, but that is AFTER the product is purchased. You have paid for the product and are then later given terms you must agree to or be unable to use the software, and in most cases also unable to get a refund. This is one of the big complaints about ELUA's that they add terms after the purchases of the product.

Re:Undisclosed?

[scubamage]

DINGDINGDING, we have a winner! Sometimes they list that there is, "antipiracy software" included, I hardly think that disclaimer explains away SecuROM.

Re:Undisclosed?

[ivandavidoff]

In English?

Re:Undisclosed?

[Masterwinks]

No, but the EULA is displayed when you want to install the game. You know, the thing that no one ever reads but you can present in court as evidence since you clicked the check mark "I agree." Yeah, that thing. Also, people knew there was going to be secuROM on the game disc. They made it public shortly after announcing the game. If you got the creature creator, you found that out as well. You can't say that you didn't know that a Digital Rights Management program known as secuROM would be included with your copy of Spore. This lawsuit will fail miserably. EA won't even blink.

Re:Undisclosed?

[SadSoupDragon]

Outside of the box? No. Available before the offending software is installed? Yes.

Re:Undisclosed?

[fractic]

I'm not saying EULAs are a good thing. I'm just saying that she has accepted it and it probably does mention secuROM.

Re:Undisclosed?

[east coast]

Spore's EULA.

Granted, I think it's sad that users of a game need to go over a EULA to feel good about their purchase but I guess that is the nature of the beast today.

Re:Undisclosed?

[Hyppy]

No, but the EULA is displayed when you want to install the game

Ohhhh, you mean the click-through "contract" that is only available for viewing AFTER the game is purchased and rendered non-returnable. Gotya.

So, care to explain to me what I should do the next time I do not agree to an EULA? I prefer a solution that won't get me laughed out of a store or off the phone, if you could.

Re:Undisclosed?

[fractic]

Looks like I was right. While secuROM isn't mentioned by name, the mention of DRM is on the very first page.

Re:Undisclosed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, so it's not available on the outside of the box... and yet she accepted it before she shelled out her cash? /same anon

Re:Undisclosed?

[MBGMorden]

When you're installing it it's too late though. You generally don't pay for a project and THEN start going over the contract, and expecting a user to agree to the EULA AFTER paying for the software is the same thing.

As to "making it public" - not everyone reads the press reviews on a game (or other software) before buying it. I myself normally do, but I know that on several occasions I've made impulse purchases and bought computer and/or console games that I'd never heard of before. Assassin's Creed and Bioshock for the 360 were close to that for me. I'd heard that were "good games", but aside from that I had never read any article or in depth piece on them before picking them up. Now there naturally are consequences to that: I might get a sucky, buggy game by doing that. That's an acceptable risk though. Consumers SHOULD however, not be subject to heavy DRM such as that in Spore, and they shouldn't have to read anything to verify that ahead of time. That's like putting poisoned soft drinks in a vending machine, and then leaving a stack of leaflets on the table across the room explaining that they're poisoned. Saying that the information was available just isn't going to cut it.

Re:Undisclosed?

[hedwards]

That doesn't mean it's binding. By the time a person actually clicks on the EULA or doesn't the ability to return the software for a full refund is pretty much gone.

And having read a few EULAs you have to know quite a bit more about the law than is included. Pretty much all of them include language about parts being overridden by laws. The basic assumption being that you're not competent to make an informed decision about accepting or not. Most people at that point click through because they don't think they're going to get all their money back if they refuse to accept.

Re:Undisclosed?

[Ghost Hedgehog]

The EULA probably does not cover that secuROM stays on your harddrive, even after removal of Spore. This lawsuit might put EA into the position that it has to release some kind of removal tool. But even without the lawsuit I think EA should remove all Spore related software when you deinstall it.

Re:Undisclosed?

[Hyppy]

You still have yet to present evidence that the EULA was accepted prior to the point at which the purchase became non-refundable.

Re:Undisclosed?

[geminidomino]

Outside of the box? No.

Available before the offending software is installed? Yes.

Available before the offending software is purchased, opened, and thus rendered un-refundable? No.

Re:Undisclosed?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Granted, I think it's sad that users of a game need to go over a EULA to feel good about their purchase but I guess that is the nature of the beast today.

When you have to start deeply researching the details of a particular product to see if you agree with its idea of what a 'sale' is, it is no longer an impulse buy. It's bum-fuck stupid of EA or any other publisher to make their customers more wary.

Re:Undisclosed?

[spire3661]

'Making something public' is not even the close to the same as full legal disclosure on the retail box.

Re:Undisclosed?

[RichardJenkins]

It's presented at install time, you can get a refund if you don't accept it. The more important point is that companies use the eula as a tool to bury relevant tidbits of information (like, say, only three installs per disk) which would hurt sales if they were well publicized.

Re:Undisclosed?

[Spatial]

Somehow I don't think anyone would 'feel good' after reading a game EULA.

Re:Undisclosed?

[RichardJenkins]

It's presented at install time, you can get a refund if you don't accept it.

Actually scratch that..thte eula is available here, and doesn't mention anything about refunds, that's pretty shitty.

Re:Undisclosed?

[Feanturi]

People knew? Which people? I suppose you mean the ones reading message boards about the game beforehand, watching and waiting for rumors and spending time sorting out fact from fiction. The rest of us with lives merely assumed there would be some form of DRM but not specifically The Great Beast SecuROM. "Made public" just means "posted somewhere on the internet", and not necessarily where *I* will see it. I can indeed say that I had no idea it would ship with SecuROM, and so can many thousands of others.

Re:Undisclosed?

[lgw]

Nevertheless, couts have upheld them. You bought the box, you have the box: transaction concluded. Next you want to run some software - if you'd like to do that, here's a contract you'd have to agree to.

Re:Undisclosed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only is secuROM not mentioned, but the only disclosure is that anti-piracy measures are used. Nothing about a three install limit (which I understand is being lifted), NO details whatsoever on the crippling nature of the DRM.

Re:Undisclosed?

[lgw]

That doesn't matter legally. You can't argue from what makes sense to what the law means.

Your purchase of the box was a non-refundable deposit that gave you the right to take the next step: read the EULA and decide whether to enter that contract.

Re:Undisclosed?

[moose_hp]

Enlighten me:

http://files.ea.com/downloads/commerce/eula/en/eula.pdf

Where's the part that says about installing 3rd party anty-piracy software or some stuff like that?

Re:Undisclosed?

[halivar]

It's time for warning stickers. Or at least Vaseline coupons.

Re:Undisclosed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for the link. Casual check shows it to be 29 pages long, are gamers going to have to start hiring lawyers and White Hats to look these EULAs and DRM over before they click "Accept"? Are we going to have to set up a foundation that does that and gives a searchable step-by-step breakdown and synopsis with links to problems previously related to the producer and DRM?

Obviously not room on the box for a 29 page EULA unless it comes as an attached pamphlet/book.

Re:Undisclosed?

[snowraver1]

Really? Because, my sales receipt does not contain the word "deposit" anywhere when I purchase my games.

Re:Undisclosed?

[blueg3]

Generally, if you disagree with the EULA, the company will refund your money if you return the product. Now, Best Buy might not. But placing a legal agreement where it cannot be read before purchase and refusing a fair return if you reject that agreement is making you a prime target for a successful lawsuit.

I know for a fact that if you refuse the EULA, Microsoft will do a return of Windows.

Re:Undisclosed?

[lantastik]

Why isn't this on EA's website?
http://www.ea.com/global/legal/legalnotice.jsp

Absolutely no mention on the Spore website:
http://www.google.com/search?q=site:www.spore.com+securom&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS238US238

If you want to read what EA's explanation of SecuROM is from their support page, you can do so here. It includes information on how to remove SecuROM from your computer. Strangely, they make no mention of whether the removal process will disable the game.

All that being said, I don't imagine this lawsuit will make it very far. However, the policy that you can't return the software after it's been opened seems pretty criminal to me. The EULA should be included on the OUTSIDE of the box or a link to the EULA on the web that you can read before you open the software.

Re:Undisclosed?

[QZTR]

And you have yet to explain why the game being "non refundable" is anyones fault but yours for buying it from a place with such a return policy.

Re:Undisclosed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Courts have only upheld this in cases where they deem the EULA is reasonable.

Essentially, a EULA in-package only holds up if a "reasonable" person would agree to it upon reading it.

Reasonable does not imply average, so you also cannot use "the average user is stupid". Frankly, no reasonable user wants Malware on their computer, so if SecuROM can (reasonably) be shown to be Malware, the EULA should be deemed useless.

Re:Undisclosed?

[m.ducharme]

You need to quote case law on that or stop talking out of your ass. Really.

Re:Undisclosed?

[Khyber]

What about those of us that paid for it online? We're not given an EULA stating that UNTIL we've paid for and started to install the game.

Re:Undisclosed?

[Sj0]

Not neccessarily. If it's an oem copy of Windows, they'll force you to deal with your vendor, as the EULA tells you. At that point, your vendor may or may not give you a refund, and will probably just bounce you back to MS until you threaten legal action.

Re:Undisclosed?

[m.ducharme]

And because I forgot....

"You can't argue from what makes sense to what the law means."

Actually, you can. It's called the "Reasonable Third Party" test, and it's used quite often in Contract law, to determine if two parties really have a contract or not. The judge asks herself, "if I explained the fact situation to a reasonable person (doesn't have to necessarily be a smart person), would that person say a contract existed?" If the answer's no, the judge can rule that no contract exists. Period.

Your little turd about how the sale price is really a deposit won't wash, because the key part of a contract, that makes it binding, is the agreement to the terms, not the exchange of money. There is no contract until you read the EULA, and accept it (a click through is not necessarily an acceptance).

The fact that once you open the box, nobody will take it back, could be a good argument that clicking the "I Agree" button doesn't actually signal your agreement, but instead signals that "I've been tricked out of my money, and I'm trying to mitigate my losses by enjoying the game." Migating your losses does not constitute acceptance of a contract, rather it's what you do after the contract has been broken.

I don't know if there is case law in the US yet either way on this point (I'm pretty sure it hasn't been tested in Canada) so really, nobody's right until a judge decides on an issue, and really it will take more than one decision to firm up the rules, since there are probably several different issues that will have to be decided.

Re:Undisclosed?

[blind biker]

Thanks for that. But for what's worth, the word "SecuROM" or "secure" are not mentioned there.

It mentions

Third Party Technology. The Software incorporates technology
developed by TransGaming Inc. (the "Cider Technology"). The terms
and conditions and licenses set out in the schedule apply to Cider
Technology.

but TransGaming Inc. did not develop SecuROM. So, EA, I think, has still their pants down.

Re:Undisclosed?

[LingNoi]

Not for PC games. If you go in for a refund all you will get is money off a different game. You will never get your money back.

Re:Undisclosed?

[lgw]

Courts have only upheld this in cases where they deem the EULA is reasonable.

Essentially, a EULA in-package only holds up if a "reasonable" person would agree to it upon reading it.

Reasonable does not imply average, so you also cannot use "the average user is stupid". Frankly, no reasonable user wants Malware on their computer, so if SecuROM can (reasonably) be shown to be Malware, the EULA should be deemed useless.

Someone please mod this AC up. This is the same principle that works for apartment leases and other consumer contracts that normal people sign without reading. The burden is on the company to alert the consumer if there's anything out of the ordinary in the contract. Presumably that's the point of this lawsuit.

Re:Undisclosed?

[lgw]

The case law supporting EULAs as binding has been around for years now. The fact that the product is non-returnable at some particular store is orthagonal to issue of whether the contract is binding. Sad, but true.

Re:Undisclosed?

[lgw]

I apologize. I used a metaphor with no automobiles at all in it. I understand the confusion that must have caused here on /..

If you don't like the fact that you can't return software to some store if you decide you don't like the EULA (or for that matter, that you don't like the software), then buy from a better store, or decide not to take the risk. It's annoying, but has little to do with whether a EULA is enforcable as a contract.

Re:Undisclosed?

[blueg3]

You can't "go in" to the game publisher, only to a retail store. As I mentioned, the retail store might not offer a refund, but the publisher will.

Re:Undisclosed?

[LingNoi]

If it is EA's digital store or steam then you got a point but most purchases you'd have to agree are made in stores.

Re:Undisclosed?

[Bobartig]

A PC gamer mag did an article about this years ago, where they bought several current PC titles from a variety of publishers, then tried to return them stating that they disagreed with the EULA.

Several companies (I recall Blizzard being one of them) sent them refunds after they sent their original something or other back. So, it is possible, at least it was a few years ago.

Re:Undisclosed?

[geminidomino]

It's not the stores to blame for the no-return-software policies. It's the publishers. They declared that the stores would not receive credit for returns. The stores that will take software back, at least in the US, are few and far between. Having never seen one myself, I can only assume they have some internal policies on the subject to keep from constantly having to eat the costs of returns.

Re:Undisclosed?

[the_B0fh]

WTF have you been smoking?! Show ONE citation where the courts have upheld EULAs.

Re:Undisclosed?

[the_B0fh]

Just because you stayed at Holiday Inn last night doesn't make you a lawyer, so stop pretending to be one. KTHXHAND

Re:Undisclosed?

[the_B0fh]

Because EA has a contract with those places that sell the games, or have a contract with their distributor. If they render such a situation, then it is their fault.

You seem to be of the opinion that it is OK to fuck the customers over. You must have been BOHICA'ed quite often.

Re:Undisclosed?

[the_B0fh]

Problem is this - it doesn't even say secure rom, nor does it tell you how often does it call home, or how many times you can activate.

That is what's going to get them into trouble.

Re:Undisclosed?

[Uberbah]

The case law that EULA's are worthless has been around for years now

Fixed that for you. You can't try to enforce a contract after money has changed hands on a non-returnable product.

Re:Undisclosed?

[Aceticon]

EULA's are not valid in most of the civilized world.

They are considered an attempt at changing the implicit contract which is the sale, after that actual sale is closed.

If BEFORE you actually pay and get the game you are made to read through a contract and then sign it, that would be valid.

Re:Undisclosed?

[Hyppy]

Are you done trolling yet? Blaming a standard market practice on a single consumer is like blaming a random guy at your local mosque for 9-11.

Re:Undisclosed?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, but the EULA is displayed when you want to install the game. You know, the thing that no one ever reads but you can present in court as evidence since you clicked the check mark "I agree." Yeah, that thing.

EULA doesn't matter. It was not presented at the time of the purchase and as such is not a valid part of the transaction.

Re:Undisclosed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, not to support DRM, but companies could start accepting open box software returns if they felt safer that you didn't just take it home, burn it, and bring it back.

Re:Undisclosed?

[srmalloy]

The only problem with the Spore uninstall removing SecuROM is that other software installed on your computer may also incorporate SecuROM for its DRM -- other EA titles in particular. However, while looking for methods of manually uninstalling SecuROM, I found several references claiming that if you remove SecuROM from your computer without uninstalling the software that uses it, the software will automatically reinstall SecuROM the next time it is run. Which addresses the problem of a full Spore uninstall bricking other software by uninstalling SecuROM, but doesn't address the problem of having an unwanted rootkit on your system.

Re:Undisclosed?

[srmalloy]

Software publishers will never put the full EULA on the outside of the box. Most software, particularly game software, relies on catch-the-eye packaging to attract customers as it sits on the shelf, and having a box with no bright, colorful art on the front because, except for the product name, the entire front, back, top, bottom, and sides are covered with 6-point text to get the entire EULA on the outside of the box isn't going draw the eye.

Re:Undisclosed?

[X0563511]

Transgaming did the WINE(like) interface for the MacOSX port. Nothing to do with the copy protection.

Re:Undisclosed?

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is, if the uninstaller -were- to also remove secureROM, this might break other games installed onto the system which also use secureROM.

Re:Undisclosed?

[lgw]

Did you even *try* using Google before asserting this? Being so sure you're right and others are idiots that you don't even check your beliefs in the most cursory manner is folly.

Re:Undisclosed?

[the_B0fh]

OK, just took a quick look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EULA - you're right. But a plain EULA, with the software not returnable, seems to be unenforceable at this point. In US.

Mr Jolly Folly.

Re:Undisclosed?

[lgw]

The recent Blizzard case that was in the geek news was the most famous case of a click-through EULA being enforced, but that was a bit muddied by the DMCA arguments. Here's a Slashdot story from 2000, it's only been getting worse from there.

I don't think the software not being returnable has much to do with it, though someone might argue the other way around: that the company must refund my money if they don't disclose the terms of the EULA before I buy, and i don't agree to those terms (but then, most big companies have the EULA for their products available in some dusty corner of their web site anyway).

Re:Undisclosed?

[Anonymous Coward]

TransGaming Inc. did not develop SecuROM, so they didn't do the copy protection.

(I felt your redundant post needed more redundancy.)

The "Ban"

[The Moof]

The ban in question is on EA's forums, not from the game.

Re:The "Ban"

[X-Kal]

That's not entirely true, it seems. http://forum.spore.com/jforum/posts/list/3869.page
"Please do not continue to post theses thread or you account may be at risk of banning which in some cases would mean you would need to buy a new copy to play Spore."
The text is in red, and it looks like the post has been edited. It's a shame that Spore's forums won't let you see who made the edit, however. It would be nice if we could see, without a doubt, that it was edited by a moderator.

Re:The "Ban"

[Rossman]

Actually, the article quotes the Forum moderator: "Please do not continue to post these threads or you account may be at risk of banning, which in some cases would mean you would need to buy a new copy to play Spore." That sounds like an in-game ban, not a forum ban, to me.

Re:The "Ban"

[The Moof]

Kotaku covered the same thing, and debunked it here.
And Here's the page in a thread where the guy posting your thread (jpfrostfox) said he screwed up, with the forum moderator (sporemasterladym) trying to do damage control.

Re:The "Ban"

[The Moof]

The same moderator came on later and admitted misinformation.
I posted a response with links to someone else about it.

Re:The "Ban"

[Anonymous Coward]

Cool, he should go on posting.

That would be a great reason to sue.

Re:The "Ban"

[Anonymous Coward]

and banning from the game will lead to another lawsuit.

EA should think twice before threatening disatisfied customers

Re:The "Ban"

[Anonymous Coward]

Kotaku covered the same thing, and debunked it here.

And Here's the page in a thread where the guy posting your thread (jpfrostfox) said he screwed up, with the forum moderator (sporemasterladym) trying to do damage control.

Can't take the time to register.

He did not say he screwed up, he did nothing wrong. The moderator who was sacked certainly did though. His apology was personal, to the moderators who were decent for making their job more difficult because of his questions and the sensational reaction they caused. It was no admonition of guilt.

Re:The "Ban"

[Anonymous Coward]

Register for what? I can browse it without a registration just fine.

Would it make you feel better if it came straight from EA's mouth? Apparently, the guy who made that bold red statement doesn't even work for EA, he's an "over-zealous community volunteer".

This seems pointless...

[Deathdonut]

How exactly is the DRM portion of the install any different than any other part of the install? I hate heavy-handed DRM as much as the next guy, but to make a class action claim over this is as rediculous as expecting an MMO to refund half your money if you don't want the updater installed.

Re:This seems pointless...

[Anonymous Coward]

There should be more class action suits over similar malware inclusion.

Re:This seems pointless...

[mapsjanhere]

The question is most likely one of uninstalls. If the DRM installs with the game, and goes away with the game, they are probably safe. If the DRM becomes uninstaller resistant and just goes into hiding, it fits the definition of malware, requiring separate, informed consent to installation.

Re:This seems pointless...

[Khyber]

It's different because SecuROM installs shit on my computer THEN STRIPS AWAY MY ADMINISTRATOR PRIVILEGES WITHOUT MY PERMISSION.

We have laws concerning this very damned thing - it's about time they got enforced.

Re:This seems pointless...

[Fumus]

But you can uninstall the updater. SecuROM isn't removable, and doesn't go away even if you uninstall Spore.

Re:This seems pointless...

[LingNoi]

Not really. If there was a lawsuit for every DRM game that EA release eventually they'd stop putting DRM into their games.

Also lawsuits makes EAs stock go down. If you check out todays stock (ERTS) you'll notice it's been going down. Investors were told by EA that they needed more money for Spore in 2006 and that spore was going to be the big money win. It's been the opposite and turned into an investor nightmare for them.

Re:This seems pointless...

[the_B0fh]

What happens when you're not playing the fucking game, and it's still running in the background, screwing with your stuff?

can't discuss SecuRom

[hellfish006]

"Hi, we made a game and there are parts of it that you can't tell others about."

Re:can't discuss SecuRom

[blueg3]

You certainly can -- you just can't use the forums that they're providing (and paying for) to discuss it.

EA has lost me

[MikeRT]

I'm sure there are a lot of potential customers who, like me, didn't really know much about Spore, but did end up hearing a lot about how it's a pain-in-the-ass because of the DRM. As a result, I don't think I'll ever spend any money on this, since the lion's share of what I've heard is that it's tightly controlled.

Re:EA has lost me

[RLiegh]

I was considering getting it when I saw it on sale for $9.99 at Best Buy, until I remembered the fuss kicked up over it here. That, plus the fact that seeing a relatively new game go for $9.99 raises a few alarms in and of itself.

Re:EA has lost me

[brunascle]

that was the Creature Creator, not the game itself. and supposedly you can download the Creature Creator for free anyway.

Re:EA has lost me

[Enderandrew]

I think you are confused. Spore is $60. There is even a collector's edition which is like $90. The creature creator is one aspect of that game, and they sell the limited creator creator for $10, which is in effect paying $10 to have a demo of the actual product.

Re:EA has lost me

[Hyppy]

Some of us prefer to be able to play games we pay for for as long as we want. What happens when the validation servers are taken offline? Or when EA decides to decline your request for another install?

Re:EA has lost me

[hedwards]

So, it's not stopping piracy and the DRM is costing them sales, remind me again how they expect to make money?

Re:EA has lost me

[aztektum]

Same with me. Unfortunately this includes Bioware titles as well. And I was lookin' forward to Dragon Age. :(

Re:EA has lost me

[Vagnaard]

Never said that DRM was a good idea, just that it's not THAT bad. I'd be happy to see it removed and never used it again. Heck, it even convinced me not to buy Spore on moral grounds. I am just trying to point out that the outcry IS overblown. It's not like securom is new or that it was the first time it has been used. It's not like it's wrecking EVERY configurations.

Re:EA has lost me

[SilentTristero]

I've been looking forward to Spore for over a year, and so has my son. There is no way we will buy this game now, I won't risk damaging my main PC with SecuROM. I had seriously considered buying it and then installing the crack, but at this point I'd rather just let it go. I can't afford a separate PC just for games like this, and the time to reformat/ghost my machine is time I can't afford to spend either. Sorry, Will Wright. I would have loved to play Spore.

Re:EA has lost me

[Anonymous Coward]

I was considering getting it when I saw it on sale for $9.99 at Best Buy, until I remembered the fuss kicked up over it here. That, plus the fact that seeing a relatively new game go for $9.99 raises a few alarms in and of itself.

Um, you saw the "Creature Creator". Best Buy is selling Spore for $49.99, just like 95% of other new PC games.

Read the box before you make assumptions based on pretty pictures that look remarkably like something else.

Re:EA has lost me

[LingNoi]

That's great that it's not a problem FOR YOU.

Everyone else however are having frequent crashes and problems with spore with the only offical suggestion being to reinstall the game.

1) Install game - frequent crashes, EA tells you to reinstall the game.
2) Game reinstalled - Still problems, EA releases patch which causes EVEN MORE problems with no way to uninstall it
3) Install game again to get rid of patch.

oh shit I ran out of installs...

Re:EA has lost me

[apoc.famine]

EA lost me years ago. Their DRM was stupid six or seven years ago. I've been on a boycott for a very long time now. I was excited about spore. Once I heard it was EA publishing it, it was off my purchase list.

Which means that ala the last many years, that non-sale will be attributed to piracy. Even though I won't even pirate EA's shit.

Re:EA has lost me

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you sure it wasn't the Spore Creature Creator, which sells for $9.95?

Re:EA has lost me

[the_B0fh]

By killing the first sale doctrine. There is next to no resale value for Spore now. Why would you buy a used Spore game from, say, ebay, especially if 3 or 5 installs were used up?

Command and Control Center?

[skis]

Where's the command and control center of my computer? I don't remember putting that in there!

Re:Command and Control Center?

[l0ungeb0y]

That would be the Battle Bridge, just go up Turbolift-14, all the way to the top. Can't miss it.

Re:Command and Control Center?

[geminidomino]

It's officially called the "Observation Dome."

Follow the cantankerous-yet-lovable female officer, she'll lead you right there.

Re:Command and Control Center?

[corsec67]

Do Battle Bridges normally have the "console explodes when bad things happen" feature?

Because I hate it when sparks fly out of the back of my computer.

Re:Command and Control Center?

[Sj0]

I always wonder why that happens. You'd think after the first few times consoles explode, they'd use optoisolators to isolate the control signals, and isolated intrinsically safe power supplies to power them.

Re:Command and Control Center?

[Anonymous Coward]

Battle Bridge at the very top? Not on any starship blueprints I've seen. Please revoke your geek card immediately.

Re:Command and Control Center?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who said anything about Turbolift-14 going all the way to deck 1? The highest it goes is to deck 8. ;)

If I sold anything to EA...

[Sasayaki]

If I ever sold anything to EA I'd make sure to put in the EULA somewhere that I get to crack them in the face with a lump of wood then key their car. When the cops arrive, assuming they don't shoot me out of hand, I will simply say that I am preforming services for which I was paid- and present them the EULA detailing as much.

I mean, that's effectively what they're doing. EA are selling one piece of software but not disclosing that it comes with a second, potentially damaging, piece of software which I Do Not Want(tm).

Re:If I sold anything to EA...

[SomeJoel]

If I ever sold anything to EA I'd make sure to put in the EULA somewhere that I get to crack them in the face with a lump of wood then key their car.

Sadly, EA is a faceless corporation that uses public transportation.

Re:If I sold anything to EA...

[Sasayaki]

Then I would definitely key their golden parachutes.

I mean, they're gold- they're as soft as hell!

Re:If I sold anything to EA...

[bendodge]

Could a developer put in their agreement with EA that EA can't put DRM on it, or does EA make you agree that they can before they'll talk to you?

Re:If I sold anything to EA...

[Fred Ferrigno]

Unfortunately, I suspect EA has these things called "lawyers" which have been designed to parse such agreements and throw an exception if the terms are unfavorable. If every customer could afford their own lawyer to parse EULAs for them, it might actually be fair.

Re:If I sold anything to EA...

[Anonymous Coward]

I will simply say that I am performing services for which I was paid-

The cops don't buy that excuse, I tried that a couple months go after the mafia(a) payed me to go kill someone.

Re:If I sold anything to EA...

[X0563511]

That's the ticket... we don't need CONSUMERS boycotting EA, we need developers boycotting them.

Hard to make money when you have nothing to sell, no?

Re:If I sold anything to EA...

[Samizdata]

Not if we treat their lawyers the same way they treat us... They can read the EULA AFTER the deal is done.

would require a "DRM-infested" warning on the box

[Lazy Jones]

also in online shops etc. ...

BS

[qoncept]

What a BS summary of the article. I generally don't RTFA but this time I did, and it revealed a seedy-as-I've-ever-seen summary. People aren't getting banned for talking about DRM. They are being banned for being jackasses when they talk about DRM.

Re:BS

[ironwill96]

Still, this raises another point. If they ban you from the forums, should they also be able to ban you from playing a game that you legally purchased?

I know Spore has online sharing features to share the creatures people create, but other than that isn't it inherently a single-player game? This sets a bad precedent to stifle complaints by banning you from playing their game and making you fork over more money to the company. Sounds like another reason not to support EA's business practices by gracing them with my purchases.

Re:BS

[Anonymous Coward]

No matter how big a jackass you're being in an online forum, you should never, ever, lose access to a game you paid for over it. Just the fact that EA has that kind of power over your purchases makes my mind boggle.

Re:BS

[Dutch Gun]

What a BS summary of the article. I generally don't RTFA but this time I did, and it revealed a seedy-as-I've-ever-seen summary. People aren't getting banned for talking about DRM. They are being banned for being jackasses when they talk about DRM.

Correct. It's way too sensationalist. The moderator (who was obviously just fed up but spoke out of line) was threatening to ban people for starting flame wars on the forums, but the official response:

"We are happy to support healthy exchanges on the forums. And people will only get banned for breaking the rules. Discussing DRM is not breaking the rules - and as long as it is a civil conversation, it's cool with us," said "Maxislucky".

Much less dramatic, no? I know DRM is nasty, but any sort of credibility of news reporting is lost when this happens. Maybe I'm becoming more aware of it, or maybe it's happening more and more. It's hard to say...

Re:BS

[youngdev]

>People aren't getting banned for talking about
>DRM. They are being banned for being jackasses
>when they talk about DRM.

I doubt this is true. I am sure that being a jackass about anything other than DRM does not always get you banned, so the deciding factor about whether or not a user is being banned is whether or not the user is talking about DRM. Being a jackass only gives EA an excuse but EA is not targeting all jackasses for banishment across the board.

Re:BS

[Anonymous Coward]

true, but that was yesterdays article. this one is about the lawsuit.

Re:BS

[Anonymous Coward]

To be fair, the intro line on TFA botched the story as well.

EA has threatened to ban the Spore accounts of members discussing DRM issues on the official game forum.

"SecuROM has been discussed and discussed so much and it causes arguments in threads," barked a moderator. "If you want to talk about DRM SecuROM then please use another fan site forum.

"Please do not continue to post these threads or you account may be at risk of banning, which in some cases would mean you would need to buy a new copy to play Spore."

However, further down the page a producer for EA Maxis attempted to sooth the resulting furore.

"We are happy to support healthy exchanges on the forums. And people will only get banned for breaking the rules. Discussing DRM is not breaking the rules - and as long as it is a civil conversation, it's cool with us," said "Maxislucky".

Emphasis mine.

Re:BS

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't pay for forum access.

Re:BS

[Anonymous Coward]

The words "credibility" and "news reporting" simply don't belong together. .

Re:BS

[dword]

Yes, you should lose access to it in some cases. Maybe you get online with other players and start harassing them. The servers must have some 'ban' option, to protect the regular players from the trolls and they say something about it in the license. If they didn't reserve the right to ban people, they would find themselves in another class-action suit because people would say the game wouldn't be safe.

Re:BS

[Anonymous Coward]

Spore is primarily a single-player game, you might almost have a point if we were talking about an MMO.

Let's consider the following scenario, say I bought a new car, and I wanted more than three spare keys made for it. I find out, after I bought it, that I'd have to call $Car_Company and ask permission to make more than three keys. I decide that I don't like that, so I register for $Car_Company's forum, which requires me to have bought one of their vehicles to do so. I get carried away and act like a jerk on their forums, decrying their heavy-handed tactics and border on zealotry. Ford then decides that I'm being a little too obnoxious and terminates my access to my forum account and my car. Would that also be acceptable in "some cases"?

Re:BS

[qoncept]

How well does that copout work when you are speeding and tell the cop you were just keeping up with traffic?

Re:BS

[Anonymous Coward]

If you drive around like a lunatic, someone should take away your car.

Re:BS

[Anonymous Coward]

Congratulations on missing the entire point of the analogy! Bitching about a product's restrictions is far from using it in a way that would endanger the lives of others. Besides, if I had a car and was driving recklessly I'd expect the police to take my car away, not the manufacturer of the car.

Wrong word

[psiphiorg]

Several times in the PDF, the word "uninstallable" is used. However, it is used incorrectly. If the program actually were "uninstallable", then one of two things would be the case: (1) you would be able to uninstall it, or (2) you would not be able to install it.

Neither of these is the case. I believe the word the author was looking for was "ununinstallable", meaning that it could not be uninstalled.

Let's hope the lawsuit is undismissable because of this typo.

davidh

Re:Wrong word

[scubamage]

Usually in a case like this the defense will point that out and attempt to get a dismissal. The judge will respond in kind, "this was an error in form, but the defense understands what meaning was meant to be expressed." - or something like that. Basically the judge tells the defense not to quibble over a grammatical error, since the meaning is spelled out throughout the entire complaint numerous times. Trying to get a dismissal based on a single error in word choice would be a non-sequitor because it doesn't follow the facts of the case.

Re:Wrong word

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not save some bandwidth and just say "installable." Everyone knows 'unun' is a double-negative...

Re:Wrong word

[initialE]

Good God, the word they should be looking for is "unremovable"...

Re:Wrong word

[Anonymous Coward]

Surely you mean "unununremovable."

Re:Wrong word

[halcyon1234]

Neither of these is the case. I believe the word the author was looking for was "ununinstallable", meaning that it could not be uninstalled.

Actually, I believe the term you're looking for is anti anti-missile-missile missile

Re:Wrong word

[plasmacutter]

Since when has a non-sequitor status been a hinderance to the abrogation of public justice?

I mean, there are plenty of rulings which are dragged in via rube goldberg machine through the fourth dimensional portal beneath the justices' feet in the USSC.

Many of which took half a century to rectify, some of which were never rectified, and some of which will take another 50 years or more to rectify.

Eldredge vs Ashcroft, the upholding of "free speech zone" policies, Plessy Vs Ferguson, and the list goes on.

It's all about Marketing

[Orleron]

The validity and the outcome of this suit don't matter a bit. What matters is the negative publicity to EA. They should take notice, and so should any other game company that wishes to use SecuROM. Bastages.

It is just depressing

[sbate]

The game costs 60 dollars here at Wal-Mart. And it will mess up your computer, really it will it will be slower after you load it and really slow after you play the game till you re-boot. Essentially it turns your computer into a console. For what? some frog making game where the frog goes to space and gets abducted by aliens... I dont need a computer for that it just happens to me all the time just sitting my trailer.

Re:It is just depressing

[maxume]

What happens when you walk it?

Re:The "Ban" easily beaten one, piece o' cake...

[Anonymous Coward]

NO BIG DEAL: Simply get another gmail, or yahoo email account, & then use a new logon name to setup your account there, & once you login via an anonymous proxy server for their forums... guess what? YOU'RE IN... & there isn't a forums board that can keep you out on this planet @ that point.

Re:Slashdot summary as per usual

[moderatorrater]

What else would they ban players from? Their list of cool people?

Re:good start

[Anonymous Coward]

what we really need is a class action law suit by all the guys that wanted to eat out a girl but were turned off by her forest of pubes. Shave the pussies!

Or you could create hairless genitalia creatures in Spore.

Just crack the damn software

[bluefoxlucid]

Just mercilessly crack every protection SecuROM employs, they're not that difficult. Irritating yes, but fairly trivial. Yes, implement Q-channel cloning in InfraRecorder. Yes, implement a very slow reverse-seek twin sector search, or a faster forward-sector position scan to detect twin sectors (they have to skip a sector, which indicates a hidden twin). Yes, simply mung the SecuROM wrapper and make it always fail open. Pirating the game isn't a great goal, but embarrassing the anti-piracy software maker is a clear necessity.

Re:Just crack the damn software

[Anonymous Coward]

This ain't a game! It's a god damn arms race!

Re:Just crack the damn software

[slimjim8094]

You've obviously never done this... that's just a suggestion to the unnamed people who can... :P

Re:Just crack the damn software

[Atriqus]

But the point is to get companies come to the conclusion that DRM is bad. Cracking it just sends them the message "we need meaner DRM schemes". Suing them, however, shows them just how angry the user base is about the whole situation.

Re:Just crack the damn software

[bluefoxlucid]

No, companies like Sony and EA license technologies like XCP and SecuROM from companies that make these as a specialization. DRM has become its own industry. Unfortunately for them, they advertise a product that will stop X and in some cases is "physically impossible to subvert" (like CD-ROM twin sectors).

When their buyers (Sony, EA) become pissed off enough at such failures, they might drop use of the product; they might also turn around and sue their suppliers for selling a defective product. Cracking DRM sends the message, "The guys you bought this from were bullshitting you. Stop doing business with them." Repeatedly finding a new DRM supplier becomes disheartening after a while; unlike with PTFE-based oil additives, the consumers here (Sony, EA) have real performance numbers telling them the shit doesn't work ever.

Re:Just crack the damn software

[bluefoxlucid]

I've done it once for fun. I don't have the patience to do it for serious. I can do exploit development too (hence my personal copy of IDA Pro) but haven't played with that in a while either, as it's a time-consuming and not incrementally awarding hobby (the buzz at the end of tons of work when you find a new way to hack into Windows is awesome; the let down when you find out it's just a vanilla crasher that can't be leveraged is suck).

Re:Just crack the damn software

[slimjim8094]

I was joking... you clearly had no idea what you were talking about, going on about bit twiddling and 'reverse-seek twin sector searches'...

Re:The "Ban" easily beaten one, piece o' cake...

[MaXMC]

They use the game's login for the forum...

As we have seen before, boycotts don't work.

[Zombie Ryushu]

Boycotts don't work in this industry. They never have. The closest things to a successful boycott was the Mortal Kombat issue between the Sega Genesis and Super NES. Which was easily corrected by the time Mortal Kombat 2 rolled around.

Re:As we have seen before, boycotts don't work.

[CrazyJim1]

Sure boycotts work. I don't buy EA games, and as a result I am a happier gamer.

Re:As we have seen before, boycotts don't work.

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Boycotts don't work in this industry. They never have. The closest things to a successful boycott was the Mortal Kombat issue between the Sega Genesis and Super NES. Which was easily corrected by the time Mortal Kombat 2 rolled around.

Fun fact: That wasn't just a boycott, a lot of people got very noisy at Nintendo about it. It was fun being a subscriber to several magazines at the time. It was a very hot topic.

Re:As we have seen before, boycotts don't work.

[westlake]

Boycotts don't work in this industry. They never have.
.

Despite the carpet-bombing it received - Spore is #2 in PC games at Amazon.com. Spore Galactic Edition #18 and Creature Creator #21.

The DRM free Sins of a Solar Empire is #439 [in video games]Bestsellers in PC Games [ 5 PM ET Sept 24]

The core market for games like The Sims and Spore is not geek. The geek is outnumbered here. He is all hat and no cattle.

Re:As we have seen before, boycotts don't work.

[fyoder]

Sure boycotts work. I don't buy EA games, and as a result I am a happier gamer.

Yup. If anyone were doing it solely as a strategy to get the evil EA to change their ways, they might be disappointed. But there's something to be said for behaving consistently with one's values. People who support companies like EA, Disney, Microsoft, Sony, RIAA labels, etc. deserve what they get. They make it all possible with their dollars. Then they turn around whine about it as though it was all the fault of the evil corporations and they're just innocent victims.

Re:As we have seen before, boycotts don't work.

[Sj0]

One thing to keep in mind, the easiest way to buy Stardock's game is through their own distribution platform.

Re:As we have seen before, boycotts don't work.

[blair1q]

I'm boycotting Duke Nukem Forever.

So far it's working.

You Go Girl

[Enderandrew]

Now I wish I had purchased a copy so I could jump on this bandwagon. However, I was waiting for them to loosen the DRM before I purchased it.

Re:You Go Girl

[genner]

Now I wish I had purchased a copy so I could jump on this bandwagon. However, I was waiting for them to loosen the DRM before I purchased it.

I own the game. Which way is the bandwagon? I didn't see any links on how to cash in on this?

Re:You Go Girl

[Khyber]

File your own individual suit - class actions are useless.

Specifically, file suit for SecuROM usurping your Administrator privileges - there's plenty of federal protection from that sort of behavior.

Re:The "Ban" easily beaten one, piece o' cake...

[fotbr]

Well, except the forums that don't allow gmail, hotmail, yahoo email, etc.

Re:good start

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I see real merit in this proposition.

LMAO

[ernstjason]

"command and control center of the computer"

Melissa Thomas' husband must be a lawyer

[CitznFish]

just a cheap attempt at some potentially easy money

Re:Melissa Thomas' husband must be a lawyer

[Kneo24]

And what exactly about it is "cheap"?

Re:Melissa Thomas' husband must be a lawyer

[CitznFish]

the fact that the DRM is not a big deal but has the potential to allow for frivolous lawsuits like this.

Who effing cares if the DRM software wasn't specifically called out in the EULA or whatever other legal documents the lawdogs are reviewing. It's just a ploy to get $$$$$ and the person who starts a class action law suit always gets a higher percentage of the award compared to the others.

Easy money in their eyes.

Re:Melissa Thomas' husband must be a lawyer

[Kneo24]

But DRM is a big deal and it continues to be more of a deal every year.

Also, what the DRM does and how it effects your PC should be called out so you at least know what it does. It's a fucking rootkit. That's why people care.

You're on fucking slashdot for crying out loud. You should understand this by now.

Re:Why complain when you can crack the game

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not?
Because you approve the entire system the game has in place if you buy it. Some people don't like software that makes you jump through hoops to play it, and they will have to show solidarity in opposing the company entirely, or at least not buying the software.

DRM regimes are an unacceptable security risk

[Anonymous Coward]

DRM that installs device drivers, or any kind of privileged process, is wholly unacceptable - unless the vendor responsible is willing to accept full legal liability for any software defects that may arise, resulting in data corruption, or a system where security is compromised as a result of software defects in the provided DRM regime. If such liability is not accepted, it is hardly reasonable to expect users to install their DRM software. Users have every right to be outraged at a vendor that is willing to potentially compromise _their_ system in the name of dubious anti-piracy initiatives.
The time has passed when it is acceptable to require administrative rights to install any kind of software. If vendors don't accept this, they have no business shipping software for the PC platform.
SecuROM installs its own device driver. This makes it a wholly unacceptable scheme for any home PC of any kind. If you have software that includes SecuROM, you should complain to your software vendor that they are compromising the security of your system, and demand formal proof of code audit from a credible independent third part of the formal correctness of every line of code in that driver.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SafeDisc
SafeDisc driver vulnerability.
How are end users to know that Macrovision has formally proved the correctness of the SafeDisc device driver? I very much doubt that they have.
This is a company with a history of substandard security. End users must insist that Macrovision open up for a code audit from a neutral third party if they wish to pursue their current business model.
DRM will not stop the real pirates anyway. It is merely an irritation to legitimate customers, who often choose to install _their_ software on multiple machines. Such schemes are at best a minor inconvenience, as they will soon be bypassed by accomplished crackers. I know of many legitimate purchasers of games who _choose_ to install cracked versions of products that they have bought because they are simple much less hassle.

Re:Why complain when you can crack the game

[mcgrew]

If a piece of software (or musc or anything) has DRM, that's an invitation to take it for free. If the only stuff that gets pirated is DRMed, they'll have to stop the DRM nonsense, now won't they?

Don't trust anyone over 25...

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe that quote originally came from Abbie Hoffman - maybe Jerry Rubin - but definitely not Cory Doctorow

Re:Don't trust anyone over 25...

[mcgrew]

We geezers said "don't trust anybody over 30". Doctorow took it and used it in the book Little Brother. The hippie reference is cited in his novel; the protagonist is a seventeen year old geek, and his social studies teacher gives a history lesson about the hippies. "Don't trust anyone over 25" was the name of an illegal rock concert in the novel.

I since found out that it's true, never trust anone over 30. But don't trust anyone under 31, either.

Little Brother is a great book, I highly recommend it.

Re:Don't trust anyone over 25...

[moose_hp]

I's from Little Brother from Cory Doctorow, great read btw.

I think that the "Don't Trust anyone over 30" is the quote you refering to.

Re:Don't trust anyone over 25...

[Hoi Polloi]

Why should I trust your recommendation?

Re:Don't trust anyone over 25...

[_Sprocket_]

He's 42.

Re:Don't trust anyone over 25...

[somersault]

What is there to 'trust' in a recommendation? They're very personal things. Personally I think it sounds interesting, but I don't read that much these days and I already have a pile of books to read for when I do read (and have just ordered "The Mythical Man Month" and "Code Complete" because I feel I need to improve my coding standards..)!

Re:Don't trust anyone over 25...

[somersault]

Sorry, it's getting late. I need sleep. I better *whoosh* myself.

*whooooooooooooooooosh*

Re:Don't trust anyone over 25...

[mcgrew]

I have 25 years experience at being 21!

More seriously, the book is online. I'm reading it on my computer, if my daughter doesn't buy me a hardcover copy for Christmas I'll buy myself a copy. Look in this comment thread, another slashdotter linked Doctorow's site where you can read/download the book.

I've become an instant fan. When I finish the book I'm posting a rave review in my /. journal.

I don't need SPORE that badly

[GunDawg]

With all the DRM going around, I don't need SPORE that badly. It's getting to the point that I (and people in general) are getting sick and tired of being restricted. As always, the law-abiding people are punished because of the law-less people.

Re:I don't need SPORE that badly

[spire3661]

Its funny how they positioned Spore in front of the incoming wave of AAA titles. Makes it easy to forget it existed.

Spore DRM = Sony CD rookit?

[Anonymous Coward]

Couldn't this be compared to what Sony went through for the rootkit that was installed with some cds a few years back?

I'm so torn!

[alisson]

My loathing of DRM software is clashing horribly with my abhorrence of class-action lawsuits! What ever shall I do??

I guess I'll go play Spore until I decide.

GOOD!

[Taibhsear]

It's about time someone went through with the class action lawsuit on this. Now we just need to follow through and file suit with any other game company that employs this bogus tactic. (Two that I own come to mind, Dawn of War: Soulstorm, and Crysis.) I don't even care about monetary compensation. I want a utility to remove SecuROM and either a patch to make the games work once it has been removed or a new copy of the game without SecuROM or other bullshit DRM sent to me. I'll gladly return the original DRM'd discs once received (with them paying for the shipping costs of course).

oops

[Anonymous Coward]

http://thepiratebay.org/search/Spore/0/7/400

Are you sure the summary is wrong?

[hellfire]

This article, listed in the summary, has this as an official response from EA:

"Please do not continue to post these threads or you account may be at risk of banning, which in some cases would mean you would need to buy a new copy to play Spore."

I'm all for calling out bad summaries, but the summary appears to be correct.

Class-action?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can I still get in on this if SecuROM inspired me to torrent the cracked version instead of buying the defective retail version?

Legal definition

[Pincus]

I think this lawsuit could provide a legal definition for software and the common expectations of purchasing. If it widely accepted that buying a game means you can use that game on any system, as with a console game, or as with a t-shirt, fitting any person of the chosen size, then that will become legal precedent.

Then we end up with some sort of warning on the side of a software package making declarations and what else might be included and what limitations are placed on the purchaser.

Malware?

[TigerDawn]

I do not know about you, but DRM is the main reason I do not purchase video games for my computer anymore.

I would term this malware, as the software, you are not told about at the time of purchase, hinders your usage of other software on the computer (aka. spore). It is still malware, if they tell you about it, after it is installed. The software was designed to stop your usage of other software on your system.

It is kinda sad, when pirated software has less viruses and malware than software honestly purchased.

Voting with your dollar...

[Alari]

Voting with your dollar doesn't work in certain cases. EA doesn't give two shits about your stupid fifty bucks. Now, voting with other people's dollars, that's where it, the be, is. The comments on Amazon about DRM, etc, are effective strategies that consumers can use in this modern electronical computers era.

Aside: I bought Spore, in a store, for money, the day it came out. I love it. (I didn't try that shitty DRM bonus game though, seems like most people think it sucks.)

Shamless Self-Promotion

[ewhac]

Anyone want to bid on my InTrade market?

Schwab

This doesn't work!

[micron]

I purchased Spore ( The Galactic edition ) from Amazon on September 8th, for overnight delivery.

I could not get it installed. After 11 days of going back and forth with EA tech support, EA informed me that they assigned the software key to someone else on September 7th. EA's solution, "return the software to my place of purchase".

Sounds great, but companies such as EA have told vendors not to take returns on software that is no longer in the shrinkwrap.

I have pointed out to EA that the only viable solution is for them to issue me a new key.

I have heard nothing from EA on this since Saturday.

Maybe it is time to fire up the lawyers. EA took my money, and has not given me a product in exchange.

Re:This doesn't work!

[Khyber]

Add federal hacking charges in as well - SecuROM usurps your Admin privileges and creates files and folders that you cannot delete even in super-root.

Re:This doesn't work!

[CodeMunch]

wow - these guys are almost as good as the Alienware tech support.

Me: "My system is overheating (127C!!!!) when I play BF1942/DC, specificially the vid card"

Alienware Support tech: "Well, don't play that game."

Re:This doesn't work!

[sexconker]

Dispute the charge on your credit card.
You paid for something and got nothing.

Re:This doesn't work!

[AK Marc]

Return it to Amazon. Keep a receipt that you sent it back. If they don't credit your card, dispute the charge. "The product didn't work, so I returned it. I no longer have it in my posession." You'll get a full refund from your credit card company, if not Amazon, and it will cost them more for a chargeback for not giving a refund up front.

Re:This doesn't work!

[sniepre]

This is one of the few last trumps that we have left.

Buy with credit.

When someone rips you off, file a dispute. This is the right answer. It will hit them where it hurts.

Re:This doesn't work!

[dcam]

Maybe you need some decent consumer protection laws. In this country (Australia) you are always legally able to return to the place of sale.

Re:This doesn't work!

[jorday]

Probably too late for that?

Re:This doesn't work!

[Aceticon]

If you're in the UK the magic words are "Trading Standards" and "Not Fit For Purpose".

If you're in the US you'll probably just get shafted by EA and/or expensive lawyers.

Re:This doesn't work!

[Anonymous Coward]

I purchased Spore ( The Galactic edition ) from Amazon on September 8th, for overnight delivery.

I could not get it installed. After 11 days of going back and forth with EA tech support, EA informed me that they assigned the software key to someone else on September 7th. EA's solution, "return the software to my place of purchase".

Sounds great, but companies such as EA have told vendors not to take returns on software that is no longer in the shrinkwrap.

I have pointed out to EA that the only viable solution is for them to issue me a new key.

I have heard nothing from EA on this since Saturday.

Maybe it is time to fire up the lawyers. EA took my money, and has not given me a product in exchange.

When it comes down to it, if the game doesnt work you should get a refund or replacement from the retailer. This is the law in the uk as detailed in the Sale of Goods act. So regardless of the shops individual policy on returning opened games, they have to provide a replacement if it is faulty or incomplete.

Another point, EA did not take your money, the retailer did. If you want your money back, you go to the retailer, not EA.

Re:This doesn't work!

[sexconker]

It's been 17 days.

You've got 60 days after the bill with the bullshit was sent to you to report it.

Re:This doesn't work!

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean "Amazon" took your money and hasn't given you a product. When you "fire up" your legal machine, make sure they understand this. ;)

Re:This doesn't work!

[Anonymous Coward]

or just download the crack :(

hehehehe

[Anonymous Coward]

i would play spore, but sadly enough, my computer decided that it didn't like my Hardware......in the end i have installed windows many times in order to find the bad parts and over and over i installed spore because i liked it. Now because of that $%#@ DRM crap that they gave me, i can't install it anymore. I have tried contacting EA and nothing. They just sit on their asses laughing because another person is complaining. Needless to say i can't play a great game that's only hindrance was DRM. Seriously, lately games have either sucked royally bad with too many bugs or the games are great but they are packaged with DRM.

Possible Solution...

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay - so we can't boycott the game because they can't measure the effect of a boycott. They'll just assume their game sucked, or that PC gaming is dying or that everyone pirated it.

We can't do nothing because DRM will be common place.

We can sue, but the lawsuit is shaky at best - SecuROM is disclosed in the EULA.

So - what about this. Everyone go out and buy Spore and then NOT agree to the EULA. Take it back to the store and make a big stink if that's your thing (they'll tell you they can't do anything, of course) and you'll end up having to call EA.

Tell them you bought the game that had no mention of this 'SecuROM' crap and that you don't agree to the EULA at all. Tell them you want your money back.

Now you are wasting their time and they know you are upset because of the DRM crap. Call up EA and demand your money back because you can't play the game without agreeing and you refuse to agree.

Boycotts are quiet

[Nerdposeur]

A boycott says "I don't like what you're doing." A lawsuit says "I think what you're doing is (or should be) illegal." It's a much stronger - and more public - statement.

Personally, I wouldn't get involved this one. But I hope they win. DRM on purchased products are anti-consumer.

Separate program?

[Anonymous Coward]

SecureRom is about as separate from Spore as DirectX. It's a library that the game requires to run. This is no different than suing over Hot Coffee. Get a life and return the game. This is a vulture lawsuit.

Just another reason PC gaming is dying

[c0d3h4x0r]

People will buy a modern console and the console version of a game just to avoid these kinds of hassles.

PC game makers don't care if DRM causes them to lose PC game sales, because they'll make up for it on the console side.

bah

[McBeer]

Like most, if not everybody here, I think DRM is a ineffectual annoyance that should be gotten rid of. However, I'm not sure this warrants firing the lawyer cannons. This country already has enough lawsuits going on. Voting with your wallet and not buying the came would probably get the point across.

Furthermore, why not sue Blizzard for warden or Valve for Vac? The fact is, while annoying, these programs don't really cause problems 99% of the time for non-infringing uses. Hundreds of programs have had securom for years and just now it somehow becomes a problem

Obligatory Penny Arcade!

[Phizzle]

http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/5/9/ Classic!

Hmm

[vurg]

Melissa Thomas? Is she hot?

Re:Why complain when you can crack the game

[lupis42]

That's illegal though. DMCA and all that. If you're going to have to break the law, why pay 50$ for the chance to do it?

sad

[doti]

It's a pity that id will publish Rage with EA.

Re:sad

[JoCat]

Will the Linux version have the same DRM?

Doesn't seem likely, in my opinion -- It's a strange thought that DRM manufacturers would give consideration to such a remarkably tiny segment of the market. If anyone knows better, however, please let me know.

Re:sad

[X0563511]

ID makes linux ports. I doubt SecureROM will work in a native linux environment.

Re:sad

[doti]

Yes, yes, but the problem is I wanted to buy Rage to support id, but I don't want to give EA my money.

Guess I'll download a pirated version of Rage, and buy another id title to compensate.

Re:More +5 modded nonsense

[Govno]

Where is a store that will let me return an opened software package for a full refund? I'll shop there exclusively from now on.

Yes god forbid...

[QZTR]

God forbid you research a product before buying, it's far better to buy it thoughtlessly, then bitch about it and sue later.

Re:Yes god forbid...

[Chris Burke]

God forbid you research a product before buying, it's far better to buy it thoughtlessly, then bitch about it and sue later.

Oh yeah, like you research every single product you buy. I bet you research your car, and your computer, but do you research an apple you buy from the produce isle? The disposable paper plates you bought for a party?

The amount of research you should have to do should be proportional to the significance of the purchase. We're talking about a video game. The most research you should have to do should involve whether or not it sounds like a game you'd like to play, and if your system can play it well. And if you don't care that much about either, you shouldn't have to do any research at all.

You should not have to do research on a video game to figure out whether or not it's going to infect and possibly damage your system with malware! Just like you shouldn't have to research an apple to figure out whether or not it's filled with poison. You should be able to assume that, and if that assumption turns out to be false, damn right you should sue.

But I mean act like caveat emptor should be an absolute. That's rational.

Reference, please?

[sxltrex]

I am unaware of a EULA being challenged in court, let alone being upheld.

Re:Reference, please?

[lgw]

Is your Google broken? This was more or less settled years ago, though as always the lawyaers will nibble at the corners.

Re:Reference, please?

[Hal_Porter]

Is your Google broken? This was more or less settled years ago, though as always the lawyaers will nibble at the corners.

Why not just link to a google search for "eula upheld in court". What does the abuse add to your argument?

Re:Reference, please?

[lgw]

I am not his personal reference librarian. Asking for data easily googled for is rude in this day and age.

Then they need to know

[DahGhostfacedFiddlah]

Boycotting is only effective if the companies know they're being boycotted. The only way it can work is if everyone who doesn't buy a game *because of the boycott* notify the company. Preferably by form letter, so they can see how much they're affected by an organized boycott.

Good. Make it expensive for them.

[melted]

Make this behavior too expensive for them to keep up and they'll drop it.

Re:Good. Make it expensive for them.

[Khyber]

A class action is not the way to go - everyone filing against EA individually in small claims would SEVERELY damage them, as most small claims courts don't allow lawyers, which levels the playing field, and it also puts them at a severe manpower disadvantage - since most lawyers are disallowed the company's going to have a hard time representing itself in many of those court cases, which will end up default judgements and the plaintiffs will win simply because there's not enough manpower to handle every case in every state.

Re:Good. Make it expensive for them.

[ErikZ]

Don't you have to file in a Jurisdiction where EA's headquarter's is?

That would greatly limit "Everyone filing against EA"

Re:Good. Make it expensive for them.

[CountBrass]

Why on earth would you think that? You can file where you live.

Re:Good. Make it expensive for them.

[Anonymous Coward]

Make this behavior too expensive for them to keep up and they'll pass the expense onto consumers

There, fixed that for ya.

Re:Good. Make it expensive for them.

[Khyber]

No, you do not. You can file against a company in any state or city as long as you're a citizen of the USA.

On top of that, guess where EA's HQ is located? California, where some of the toughest consumer protection laws exist. EA just got itself into a nice tangle, one they're not going to easily get out of, with the class-action suit. Let the class-action suit go thru and win, then have those who didn't do the class action suit file in a small claims court and then press for federal computer fraud charges (EA does not have the authority to usurp my Administrative privileges, which the included SecuROM DRM does.)

To be honest, I've seen it happen

[Moraelin]

To be honnest, I've seen a pretty strong message happen at least once.

The German version of Victoria, as shipped, didn't even work. At all. On any computer. It bombed out with a script syntax error, right when you tried to start the campaign. Nothing blamable on video drivers, hardware configuration, etc. It just couldn't work on any computer, because a keyword in the script didn't match the keywords that the game engine recognized.

The German publisher pointed fingers at the devs. The devs pointed fingers at the publisher. Apparently both said that somehow an older beta version had been taken as the gold disk, but none of the two felt it was their job to do anything about it.

Most retailers dropped that game like a hot potato. Within a day or two of release, it had been simply pulled off the shelves.

I don't know if they actually gave the disks back to the publisher (probably), but here's the fun part: they don't even have to. You may have learned that the capitalism model is that the merchant buys cheap from the manufacturer, and gives it more expensive to you for a profit. Forget about that crap. There's a whole bunch of markets, from groceries to computer games, where it just doesn't work that way.

How it really works, at least for major retailers, is that you essentially the rent shelf space for your stuff from the retailer. If it doesn't sell, the retailer doesn't pay you a cent for those unsold copies. In fact, the retailer still makes a profit even if you didn't sell a single copy. If the retailer just pulls that stuff off the shelves and sends you your boxes / DVD cases back, you're shafted. They just denied you the use of their shelf space.

To get an idea of how important retailers are, E3 was originally conceived as a way to woo major retailers into carrying the publishers' stuff. Or, better yet, see the raging debate about AO ratings in the USA, whose root cause is really one single retailer: Wall-Mart won't let AO titles on their shelves. If they did, the whole "OMG, we're censored if we can't get a T rating for our gore-fest" debate would fizzle right there and then.

I think it's a pretty strong message they can get to the publishes. They don't even have to go talk to the publisher. Just send them their boxes back in a truck, with a document that says "because of disproportionate returns." That's it. Any publisher will listen, when essentially you're the one with your foot on their oxygen line.

And yes, there have been a few who insisted that they're so high and mighty, that the retailers should listen to them. They're all bankrupt by now.

Re:To be honest, I've seen it happen

[slimjim8094]

Very interesting. You're correct; I'd always assumed the 'classical economics' bit about re-selling a product for a profit that you (retailer) buys in bulk.

Though I'd say it would work fine for a 'classical' defect like a fatal bug, I'm not so sure a bunch of nerds being jerks would do anything meaningful.

Ignorance

[Anonymous Coward]

The funny thing is you can go to any popular file sharing website and get a copy of spore that runs smoothly without any DRM inside. But, those who pay get the DRM.

Fuck you mods, APPLE let's you return software

[QZTR]

There was no troll there

and Apple let's you return opened software for a refund

http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/salespolicies.html

Note that you may return software after rejecting the licensing terms, provided the software is not installed on a computer. However, if your software includes a license that you can read before you break the seal or sticker on the software media packaging, you may not return the software once you break the software media packaging seal or sticker.

How dare you assholes mod that down when there wasn't even anything remotely realted to a troll.

You're wrong mods, eat it.

Shovvitt !!!!!!

[unity100]

In their face !!

class actions are better than boycotting.

Fuck you too mod

[QZTR]

Since when it is a troll to expect people to actually research what they're buying instead of bitching about it a suing later?

And before you bust out your "he's right, but I'll mod him down anyway stick" that's exactly what this story is about.

How stupid do you look modding someone troll for telling the truth...

Re:Fuck you too mod

[weirdcrashingnoises]

I think there are a bunch of EA-lovin mods here, ignoring the top posts they know they can't win (as in, mod down) but instead go down farther in the threads where the truly insightful and informative comments are and mod em trolls.

if you are a mod and hopefully browsing at -1 look around for more QZTR posts he is correct there are a bunch of poorly modded posts.

Re:Fuck you too mod

[JustNiz]

Its not a troll to say people should be responsible for finding out everything about a product before they buy it, but its highly unrealistic, especially where technical or expert knowledge is needed to even understand what to ask.

I think its more than reasonable for people to assume that the law would protect them from a commercially available product that is designed to subversively hurt them.

If by design some software silently modifies the operating system in any way purposely disadvantageous to the user without their express permission, then it is absolutely the dictionary definition of malware.

Regardless of whether they are big companies doing it for commercial reasons or individual hackers doing it for glory, Writers of malware-installing apps should be punished for unauthorised damage to other people's computer systems. period. Actually big companies should be much more strongly punished as it generally a much larger-scale crime, given the sheer number of users they infect.

Re:Fuck you too mod

[AK Marc]

Since when it is a troll to expect people to actually research what they're buying instead of bitching about it a suing later?

Because you are being an ass about it, and you are wrong, which makes you a troll. If I spent an hour per $10 I spent, I'd die a rich man (but die quickly of starvation). Yet, that's about what level of examination it would take to know exactly what the EULA says and understand it. That's unreasonable for a disposable game. Rootkitting my computer with software that isn't uninstalled when I remove the game is not in the EULA, yet is the effect. So the EULA mentions generic software that can also be installed (no mention of what it does) and there's a mention that there may be DRM (but again, no specifics on how it's implemented) so even if you memorize the EULA, you still do not have all the information to make a decision. Oh, and I know you think that software is easily returnable, but for the "average" person (evidentally everone on the planet but you) who walk through a retailer, picks up something that catches their eye and walks out with it, how would you go about returning this to Wal-Mart if you did get it home, study the EULA and want to return it? Or do you think that you should never leave the house without doing hours of research on every item you are considering buying that day?

Now shut up troll. You presume you are right and everyone else is wrong, yet the world operates the opposite of you, and so you are an idiot. Open your eyes, see how others work, then let us know what they should do, not how Mr Perfect would do it. No one is perfect but you and Jesus, and no, you don't get to be Jesus today.

Re:Fuck you too mod

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Since when it is a troll to expect people to actually research what they're buying instead of bitching about it a suing later?

It probably had something to do with not having a bleedin' thing to do with my post. Heh.

It's about time someone sued them

[WillAffleckUW]

Much as I love Will Wright's gaming prowess, the reality is that DRM is something that everyone should be concerned about, and insist on fixes that turn it off entirely.

And if the Mac version of Spore has the same DRM problems, I won't be playing it (sad, as I had planned to buy it this weekend ...)

Re:More +5 modded nonsense

[LingNoi]

Wow, that's fucking bullshit. There's NOWHERE you can purchase a PC GAME from and RETURN it. Where are you from, the 1990s?

No stop being a moronic asshole just to "win" your pointless argument.

Aww Bummer

[daemous]

I had wanted to get this for my kids. But I just got a brand new high-end computer and don't want to throw some malware on it. The game seemed like it would have been cool though. Pricey but cool.

You will at the Apple store

[QZTR]

As I have already told you, you will at the Apple store.

Of course, you also were a total prick, so even irrefutable proof doesn't do it for you, you have to continue insisting you're right.

http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/salespolicies.html [apple.com] [apple.com]

Note that you may return software after rejecting the licensing terms, provided the software is not installed on a computer. However, if your software includes a license that you can read before you break the seal or sticker on the software media packaging, you may not return the software once you break the software media packaging seal or sticker

But you aren't.

Re:You will at the Apple store

[LingNoi]

Again, because you didn't learn in the other thread you posted this apple store crap..

If the item is returnable and you send it back to us unopened in the original box, Apple will offer you a refund based on your original method of payment.

APPLE DOES NOT OFFER YOU A REFUND!!!

What if DRM free games had a sticker...

[Fake_Loki]

Like "100% DRM Free!" People buy products that do the same with sugar and fat. Some people are doing it over licensing already (Open Source). By making a little .org that gives businesses the right to put "DRM Free" on a product more people might start paying attention so the industries will as well.

EA = new Sony

[grilled-cheese]

This sounds familiar to me.

Re:Oops, I guess you didn't read the thread

[LingNoi]

If you are not satisfied with your Apple purchase of a product, please call 1-800-676-2775 for a Return Material Authorization (RMA) request within 14 calendar days of the receipt of the product. Configure-to-order, personalized or other customized products may not be returned for refund or exchange under any circumstances unless such product is Dead on Arrival (see the section below for more detailed information on such Dead on Arrival products). If the item is returnable and you send it back to us unopened in the original box, Apple will offer you a refund based on your original method of payment. You must return the product to the Apple warehouse within 14 calendar days of the issuance of the RMA. All products must be packed in the original, unmarked packaging including any accessories, manuals, documentation and registration that shipped with the product. Apple will assess a 10% restocking fee on any opened hardware or accessory. If you purchased your order using an Apple Business Lease, Apple may ask you to provide a major credit card (Visa, MasterCard, American Express, or Discover) so Apple can assess the 10% restocking fee.

No they don't. You failed to prove anything.. again, bullshit..

I thought they were taking SecureRom out of Spore

[tompaulco]

Unless I read wrong and my google search says otherwise, they are taking Securerom out of Spore. I don't know if mine had SecureRom or not. I had heard that Spore's SecureRom would not even let you play if it detected a ISO loader on the system. I have or at least had at the time Daemon Tools, but Spore loaded and played just fine. I didn't even have to have the CD in the drive to play it. Now I haven't tried anything like making a copy of the game and installing from that, but then I have never done that with any other game either.
Also, I got lucky in that the Spore patch wouldn't load on my computer, it just sits there spinning forever saying it is patching files. However, this turns out to be a good thing as about 1/3 of people's games are dead in the water after the patch.

SecuROM messes up your computer

[Dan667]

I hope that everyone that bought Spore joins this lawsuit. Any additional revenue that EA thought they were going to get from the DRM (and that is a big if) has more than been eclipsed by what they are getting ready to pay their lawyers. Hitting EA in the pocketbook is a sure fire way to get them to change their policies and get rid of DRM all together.

How fucking pathetic are you

[QZTR]

Um, it's in the link loser. The one you read, but are now claiming "doesn't prove anything"

Here it is again, but do you realize how stupid you look arguing with Apple's official return policy

http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/salespolicies.html

Note that you may return software after rejecting the licensing terms, provided the software is not installed on a computer. However, if your software includes a license that you can read before you break the seal or sticker on the software media packaging, you may not return the software once you break the software media packaging seal or sticker."

ANd guess what twat, your link doesn't say anything about software.

Jesus, you looked stupid before, now you're aguing with a link that is as clear and unambiguous as possible, that anyone can check themselves by clicking.

Which, you, not too unusually, didn't bother to provide for your "evidence".

God, how much of a loser are you?

Re:Why are you hiding?

[LingNoi]

What's any of this got to do with my post? You're offtopic..

oooh try Opeth

[BitterAndDrunk]

Blackwater Park, Ghost Reveries, Advent, Damnation . . . skip Watershed though, it stinks on ice.

Again because you seem to be an idiot

[QZTR]

Yes they do

http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/salespolicies.html [apple.com]

Note that you may return software after rejecting the licensing terms, provided the software is not installed on a computer. However, if your software includes a license that you can read before you break the seal or sticker on the software media packaging, you may not return the software once you break the software media packaging seal or sticker.

Where the fuck do you think that quote comes from genius?

Also, where's the link to your evidence? Because we both know the second you post your link, we'll see it's MY link, and then we'll scroll down to where they qualify what you are posting.

You're wrong and you know it, but now you're not a dick, you're just pathetic.

And on top of it all...

[Digital End]

And on top of it all...
...the game sucked.

Re:And on top of it all...

[mmalove]

I don't know what you're talking about, this game entertained my seven year old for hours.

I think we were all just expecting some kind of harder game mode option where slapping together the optimal chassis for your preferred strategy took more thought.

The Many know where Command Control is.

[Jesus_666]

Actually, Command Control is in sector B of deck 1 (Engineering), between the cargo bays. It's not really that interesing a place though - unless SecuROM installs part #45M/dEX in your Systems Monitoring unit, in which case there's little to stop it from flushing the fluidic tunnels, restarting the main reactor, accessing deck 3 (Hydroponics) and making its way towards deck 4 (Operations) to meet with the machine mother. You might want to get started on putting those eggs into the escape pods before installing Spore.

Risk to Reward

[Trojan35]

The risk-to-reward of skipping DRM just isn't good enough for publishers. We can complain all we want, but it's not going to change it. It's like a buying insurance. You know it's a net negative investment, but it makes you feel a lot better.

Now, I imagine the extreme DRM in Spore will be the exception rather than the rule as publishers figure out better DRM systems. I mean, Spore's DRM is just sooo dick I didn't even get it.

Re:Risk to Reward

[Fnord666]

The risk-to-reward of skipping DRM just isn't good enough for publishers.

Maybe it's time to up the risk and reduce the reward.

Re:Risk to Reward

[NoNickNameForMe]

The probably solution? TPM built into your PC. Then you can't complain about not being able to remove the DRM since it's built in. You PC would be just like a console. Not that it hasn't been tried before..... copy protection was pretty common in the 80's, then it was removed in the 90's due to hue and cry. I see it as a pendulum, we're just swinging the other way again right now, in a new DRM arms race.

Excellent news. About time too.

[JustNiz]

I think its more than reasonable for people to assume that the law would protect them from a commercially available product that is designed to subversively hurt them.

If by design some software silently installs itself and modifies the operating system in any way purposely disadvantageous to the user without the users express permission, then it is absolutely the dictionary definition of malware, as in software with malicious intent.

Why should there be a distinction between big companies doing it for commercial reasons or individual hackers doing it? Writers of malware apps should always be punished for unauthorised damage to other people's computer systems. period. Actually big companies should be much more strongly punished as it generally a much larger-scale crime, given the sheer number of users they infect.

That British hacker who got into the pentagon to look for UFO evidence ended up facing extradition, jail time and enormous costs for supposed damage to a few systems, even though he didn't actually change anything. Why is it that EA who subversively plant malware on your PC that permanently occupies resources and damages your access rights can get away with it?

Re:Excellent news. About time too.

[Pichu0102]

Because they're a large corporation. The laws don't apply to them the same way they apply to the commoners.

Re:Excellent news. About time too.

[plasmacutter]

Why is it that EA who subversively plant malware on your PC that permanently occupies resources and damages your access rights can get away with it?

slow down cowboy. The case was just filed, it could take years to process.

The only case study i can think of where a considerable segment of the public demanded a corporation's head for malware was the sony rootkit debacle. Sony was the one who got away with it, though if i remember correctly that was because nobody actually pressed charges.

Re:Excellent news. About time too.

[freedom_india]

Oh... i love such a good discussion about ethics:

Why should there be a distinction between big companies doing it for commercial reasons or individual hackers doing it?

Simple reason: Campaign Contributions and Money. Natural persons (you & me), don't have enough money to influence even one congress-critter. Artificial persons (aka Vampires) have enough money to influence a dozen congressmen easily. Who do you think the congressmen/AG will listen to?

Why is it that EA who subversively plant malware on your PC that permanently occupies resources and damages your access rights can get away with it?

Because the british bloke was not incorporated! If he had incorporated himself, the maximum US could do was to seize his assets. But no, that foolish idiot did it himself and pays the price sitting in a 4x4 cell in Gitmo with hurricane Ike splashing all over him...
Remember: corporates CANNOT and WILL NOT be arrested or sentenced for hacking: they simply cannot. Because our congress-critters and Republicans made the law to such an effect: corporates cannot be criminally sentenced and their executives cannot be sentenced for any criminal activity, including murder. Comprende???

Actually big companies should be much more strongly punished as it generally a much larger-scale crime, given the sheer number of users they infect.

Nope. The bigger the company is, the slower they are prosecuted. The money they shovel out clogs down the AG, the courts and the lawyers to such effect that the suers become bankrupt. take the case of Exxon's Valdez. No other company has fought so viciously in whittling down the damages.
So what's the answer you ask?
Simple: extend the sarbannes-oxley act to all institutions applicable at all levels: CEO's personally are held responsible for any criminal activity of the company, and the board is collectively and individually responsible for such acts. Plus, change the law so that class-action suits cannot be "settled" out of court. The case MUST be prosecuted to its conclusion. Any attempt at withdrawing the class action suit SHOULD result in perjury indictment against the initiators. This will deter those who sue for money, and those who are tempted for it.
Should a company like EA be convicted for hacking, the CEO is sent to jail: much like sarbannes act holds the CFO and CEO personally responsible for any financial statements.
Short term answer:
This case will be settled out of court, and EA will provide a WHOLE $10 rebate against Red Alert 3.

Re:Excellent news. About time too.

[X0563511]

How about going after the people who actually write the malware?

Sony DADC Austria AG
Sonystrasse 20
A-5081 Anif/Salzburg
Austria

Sales:
SecuROM-sales@SecuROM.com

SecuROM Support is available worldwide, 24 hours a day at support@securom.com

Re:You're a liar

[LingNoi]

You're getting childish. I'm not discussing this with you anymore until your stop posting off topic.

If you want to discuss this in the relevant thread then go ahead but right now you're trolling.

You have no idea how satisfying...

[Anonymous Coward]

I want you to know, it was intensely satisfying shutting your idiot ass the fuck up.

To watch you be so wrong about returning software to the Apple store, and even to go so far as ignore a direct quote from the official policy while yourself quoting the same policy, well, thank you, that kind of stupidity doesn't offer itself up every day.

The kind of satisfaction I'm feeling right now is not something you can buy, or take, it's something you have to make yourself, you know? Like a good shit in the morning, shutting up a loudmouth twat who is too stupid to check his facts before he opens his dicksucker, like you for instance.

God, if I could buy you a beer...

QZTR made you his bitch.

Re:You're a liar

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'm not discussing this with you anymore because I'm wrong and I know it"

FYP.

And I DID discuss it in the "relevant thread", you just haven't had the sack to respond.

"You're getting childish...right now you're trolling."

So sayeth "LongNoi" who also sayeth "Wow, that's fucking bullshit... No stop being a moronic asshole just to "win" your pointless argument" and maketh himself look even more ridiculous.

Of course, what he won't mention is that his first intertaction with me was the above, so no he doesn't he get to pretend he was nice then got insulted, no his loser ass was a cunt from jump.

And now he's trying to take the high road, well let me ask, where the fuck was that high road when you were wrong but acted like an asshole earlier?

Exactly.

QZTR made you his bitch. Again.

Re:Why complain when you can crack the game

[gilgongo]

"If the only stuff that gets pirated is DRMed, they'll have to stop the DRM nonsense, now won't they?"

There's some logic in that. There's also some logic in this:

I would never buy Spore, simply because I'm not a gamer. I'd never heard of the game until now. The whole idea of spending hours in front of my screen pretending I'm an amoeba or whatever is ridiculous. BUT, seeing that there's all this fuss about the cracked version being available etc., I might just d/l it and give it a whirl. Hey, it'll be free!

Now, clearly they've not lost a sale, because I'd never buy it, BUT I might JUST get hooked. I might THEN become a fan, I might THEN give them some of my money. If not, they've still not lost a sale.

THAT is the logic these people need to understand. It's obscurity, not "piracy" they need to fear.

ProBaby

[Anonymous Coward]

There are about 12 other licenses in Spore's EULA, and none of them are from secuROM/Sony or mention it.

Re:You're a liar

[LingNoi]

Whatever dude, you're the one posting anon. You're the one getting all his posts modded troll.

Re:Thanks

[Sancho]

Troll was probably inappropriate, but you were being pretty inflammatory by calling people assholes.

Re:Oops, I guess you didn't read the thread

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple doesn't make games though

Re:Oops, I guess you didn't read the thread

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple dickwad, is completely irrelevant. This discussion is about games did you notice?
You proved nothing other than you are a dickhead

my fix

[CHRONOSS2008]

my fix is called UNsecureROM
lol

The most revealing quote

[russotto]

"Please do not continue to post these threads or you account may be at risk of banning, which in some cases would mean you would need to buy a new copy to play Spore."

Nice. Shut up or we'll unilaterally take away the game that you bought. Captures the essence of DRM quite well.

Re:The most revealing quote

[ElectricTurtle]

Christ, no wonder they're being sued. That's extortion. "That's a nice game you have there, wouldn't it be a shame if something... happened to it?"

Computer users around the world are going to get fucked when applications end up running off the internets on subscription like every soulless developer dreams of (Windows Live).

Cynical retards

[Anonymous Coward]

It's always the drooling cynical retards like you who do the most damage to a civilized society. Yes, there is no immediate satisfaction in a boycott, but it will work in the long run when people who actually care about customers are forced to deal with the long-term consequences of their action. So, suck it up, be a good citizen, and boycott. Otherwise, you're no better than these scumbags where fighting.

ym "heavy riffs"

[Kyril]

ym "heavy riffs". Unless you like vast separations in your music. HTH HAND

PS3 ?

[DavidD_CA]

Isn't Spore also released (or soon to be) on the PS3?

I'd really like to play Spore, and I'm thinking that playing it on my PS3 might be a better experience anyway. Bigger screen, more comfortable controls, and in my case a better processor.

Anyone know any details about this? Is the game experience the same or better?

Apple is irrelevant, and you're a fucktard

[Uberbah]

Apple only sells games that work on Apple hardware, and that's a small percentage of the market. So they accept returns, good on Apple. But that says nothing about GameStop, EB Games, Best Buy, Wal-Mart, etc etc.

Mod parent up

[mjwx]

Actually, Command Control is in sector B of deck 1 (Engineering), between the cargo bays. It's not really that interesing a place though - unless SecuROM installs part #45M/dEX in your Systems Monitoring unit, in which case there's little to stop it from flushing the fluidic tunnels, restarting the main reactor, accessing deck 3 (Hydroponics) and making its way towards deck 4 (Operations) to meet with the machine mother. You might want to get started on putting those eggs into the escape pods before installing Spore.

SS2 reference deserves nodding up. Please respect the will of the many.

Re:Mod parent up

[StrahdVZ]

deserves nodding up

Agreed, I nodded up whilst reading it, too.

Please respect the will of the many.

By many, you mean yourself of course.

Re:Mod parent up

[mjwx]

+5 funny,

but...

-5 missed System Shock 2 reference

Re:The "Ban" easily beaten one, piece o' cake...

[endymion.nz]

How many do that these days? I don't have any other mail aliases.

DRM

[Anonymous Coward]

It kind of funny but i only torrented the game because of the DRM. Mind you i played it for a couple of hours and haven't been back to it. Bored with it already time to uninstall.

As it was prophicized.

[pecosdave]

As it was prophesized in the days when the Gates was still upon his throne, and the battle between the parties of Mc Cain and Obama was new, we see here how the users bring their lamentations unto the pharacies.

Yeah, though the forces of EA did ease their burdens upon the masses, the users said this is not sufficent for a Mass Effect. For the masses knew of the prophecy and they proclaimed your response was heard as though it were proclaimed in jest! You go about proclaiming that we the users want our legitimate copies installed on multiple machines but nay! We want multiple installs on but one machine post upgrade or for restoration from corruption caused by your corrupt software or the corrupt software of the Gates legacy, or a legitimate transfer there of! Nay, the class action was filed with the pharacies by Melissa of the house of Thomas, as it was prophesized by the great prophet Pecosdave in the early days of Secure ROM your token relaxing of your DRM laden bondage of our people is not of the goodness of your blackened hearts, but a reaction to hearing of Melissa's lamentations! Your bondage runs deep, deep into the roots of our systems, have you learned not from the smiting of Sony?

We see now the opening of the users revolt. The prophecy is yet to be fully fulfilled, for the users are not yet organized as one. Soon will come the day not of the court smiting of the EA and their dark hordes, but of an out of court settlement, for the EA and their hordes are cowards at heart and they fear the pharacies and the integrity of their purses. For it stings the purse far less to issue coupons for future purchases than it does to refund what one has aquired.

Re:As it was prophicized.

[oztemprom]

and verily were the truth to pass.

Re:Why complain when you can crack the game

[daveime]

No, but that is so much bullshit.

At the store is a box wrapped in cellophane, and nowhere are you informed that "in buying this game are you accepting the installation of a rootkit by another name".

Once the cellophane is removed however and you are already at home on your PC installing it, only THEN do you read the EULA and discover what they are doing (if they've actually written in there that they use SecuROM).

You will find in the real world that many games stores are loath to refund for a game once it has been opened, unless it can be seen to be defective, in which case they will give you a replacement disc OF THE SAME GAME.

They will NOT simply refund because "you didn't like it", or "I discovered it had a rootkit on it", because then games stores would just become havens for "duplicate and return" piracy.

Wake up, they've got you over a fucking barrel. Maybe a lawsuit and the ensuing bad publicity will hit them where it really hurts - in the wallet.

Re:Apple let's you return opened software

[AK Marc]

Apple does.

Apple is not a store. They are a mail-order outfit. What store can I walk into, buy a piece of software, go home, open it, disagree with the EULA, go back to the store, and return it the same day for a refund? Not order it, get it shipped to me, return it to the manufacturer at my expense and get a refund. My mailbox isn't a store, and that's where I would return such an item. So, Best Buy? Gamestop? Wal-Mart? Where can I buy software, open it, then return it to the store for a full and easy refund the same day because I disagreed with the EULA? When you can answer that, you will no longer be a troll.

If they don't want people pirating the game

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not decide to boycott the production of the game? EA just Not Produce And Sell the game. Then NOBODY can pirate it.

Your problems solved.

:D This makes me laugh...

[veeoh]

All these people getting heated over something as lame as this. If you don't like the DRM - don't buy the game.

I, however, am not anal and got the game and love it.

Have you tried talking to Amazon?

[patio11]

I know, it would sort of undercut the "righteous anger at EA" theme, but in my experience Amazon is one of the most customer-friendly companies I know. Especially if you're a regular customer (even if "regular" just means "every Christmas and sometimes when a new console launches") they bend over backwards for you. I previously worked in a different company with roughly similar CS standards and, hypothetically supposing we had a similar issue with a vendor (which I frankly kind of doubt is actually accurate as you describe it), the CS rep would have picked "Refund Issued: Product Arrived Broken" before you got a minute into the conversation.

(Like we're going to threaten OUR relationships over a vendor's desire to avoid returns?! Hah. A vendor asking for that misunderestimates the power of the entity which actually, you know, has people happily hand over money to it.**)

** Which is yet another reason why EA and every other software publisher would give their right eyetooth to get everyone onto online distribution yesterday.

How is this different from other games?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, I admit I'm lost. How is this DRM different from other games that have copy protection on them and require the cd/dvd in the drive to play them?

We have the Sims2 for example and you have to have the disk in the drive to play but really we don't notice any issues other than it won't let us use our virtual cd/dvd drive instead.

How is the Spore DRM different? Its got to be more than just you need the cd/dvd in the drive to play the game.

Enlighten me?

Re:Thanks

[MtlDty]

> Nice to see not all the mods fire off "troll" just because they're ignorant. Thank you.

You're welcome... :)

How is DRM different from Copy Protection?

[Whiskers232]

I admit I don't understand. I thought securom was a anti copying protection which made it so you have to use the original game disk instead of a copy or emulated disk. What is the DRM that Spore is using and what does it mean to me as a potential consumer?

Re:How is DRM different from Copy Protection?

[swordgeek]

First of all, what you say is true--as far as it goes.

SecureROM also disables ANY virtual disk software, such as Daemon Tools or Alcohol. Forget about using emulated disks for the game, I won't be able to use them for anything (and there are a lot of legitimate uses for such things).

It also calls home to activate the game, and will only let you activate it three times. That means you can install it on three computers, period. Seems like a lot, but reinstalling an OS or in some cases cases even upgrading the hardware on an existing computer will use up one of your installs. Oh, and if the authentication servers get taken offline, your game is useless. When EA stops supporting it, you will no longer be able to install the game anywhere.

How does it do all of this? By installing itself with administrator privileges, even when the game installation is invoked with user privileges. That's where some of the claims of 'rootkit' have come in.

Finally, let us not forget that historically SecureROM has been written _badly_, and caused even more damage to systems than it was designed to do. People have, on occasion, had to reinstall their OS after SecureROM.

Tron

[carkb]

When I first saw the phrase " ... which secretly installed to the command and control center of the computer."
I immediately thought of Tron and the the 'Master Control Program'.

I think we need Flynn to go back in there and de-rez this SecuROM program with a quick throw of a disc.

DRM? A real threat?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not sure what all the fuss is about concerning DRM, and SecurROM.

Reading these forums makes me sad sometimes. People will not buy a game that has copyright protection???? I own Spore and it installed, even with Daemon tools running in the background. I have installed Mass Effect, Stalker, NFSMW, NWN2, and a host of other games from now to three years ago. Not one game has given me issues and I have reformatted at least 6 times in that span of time without uninstalling the games.

If people would not pirate then there would be no stupid copy protection, if developers / publishers would drop there prices, more people would buy, but than how are they going to have resources to make games we want to buy....and it goes round and round...

I have seen so many issues that people supposedly had installing games over the last few years, on tech sites at that, make me wonder about the collective technical knowledge. Don't take this as a flame, just a curiosity of sorts. As I said before, I have not run into a game that gave me any trouble installing or reinstalling it many times.

How does a game / copy protection software brick a cd-rom drive, unless it was manufactured in the early 90s?

Anyways, feel free to counter my points and opinions, I would like for constructive arguments on this subject.

Thanks!

Bethesda and Fallout 3

[greyfeld]

The most successful game that left DRM off its disc recently was Oblivion. It will be interesting to see how Bethesda handles this issue with the release of Fallout 3. To be honest, I got a copy of Oblivion and was so blown away, I've now bought the PS3 and PC versions. If any game of the past 10 years has shown how unnecessary DRM is, it was Oblivion. Make a good game, have a decent manual/map in the box and they will buy it, that's the bottom line.

FADE or simply lousy programming?

[Lonewolf666]

If anyone remembers FADE they'd know what truly fucked copy protection is. I had an original version of both Operation Flashpoint and the first expansion pack. I loved it. Until fade kicked in. I bought the game, but Codemasters FADE system decided that I wasn't. Gameplay degraded to the level where it was impossible to play.

This may in some cases be hard to distinguish from simple incompetence. For instance, I loved M.A.X.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanized_Assault_%26_Exploration
But it always got slow and unstable when my army reached a certain size. Now this was longe before FADE was introduced, but it could easily be confused with something like FADE kicking in.

Ultimately it doesn't matter. Broken by incompetence or broken by design, who cares? Just don't buy anymore stuff from that vendor (yes, the lousy implementation of M.A.X. got Interplay on my boycott list).

About Steam:
It's great as long as it works, but there is always the possibility that Valve goes out of business some day and switches off the authentication servers. That's why I got only one Valve game after Steam was introduced (DOD: Source, online shooter), and that one only because my friends already played it.

it used IE

[Anonymous Coward]

try turning your security setting in IE to uber paranoid and the download manager will not even load. you get multiple warnings about active x not being allowed, js not being allowed. Great. just what i need, a game telling me i have to allow maul ware to be executed in IE. wunderful

Console DRM

[anyGould]

I suppose in a technical sense that there is DRM on consoles, but not in a practical sense. When I buy a Wii game, I consider it equivalent to buying an 8-track - it's meant to be used on a single type of machine. No-one complains when their CDs don't work on a cassette player. :)

Additionally, I don't have to register/confirm/anything for a console game. I plug in console, insert game, play. (At least, that's how it works for all the consoles I own - NES, N64, PS2, Wii - can't speak for the PS3 / Xbox family)

and securom is particularly nasty, too

[Anonymous Coward]

we had the misfortune of installing another "securom-protected" game, which somehow has permanently disabled our ability to play several totally unrelated games. that's one way to beat the competition.

the securom people are especially unhelpful when it comes to fixing the situation, too. once it's infested your system you're hosed permanently.

Class Action Lawsuit Result

[nobodymk2]

EA may be hurt by this, how will the purchasers of Spore be affected? From what I've seen anyone involved in a class-action lawsuit that is successful generally receives no more than lunch money.

Re:You're a liar

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh how sad, little QZTR is getting modded flamebait and troll. Again. Because he is a child with anger management problems and megalomania. You should just leave, everyone here is bored with you.

I received a refund for Spore direct from EA

[koalapeck]

Not sure how many people are following this story as it's a bit old, but I have successfully received a full refund for my purchase of Spore. I had purchased it direct from EA via digital download.

All I did was send them a support ticket expressing my concern for the background software such as Securom and how I was disappointed that before purchasing the game that this software would be installed on my PC.