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Another Way the LHC Could Self-Destruct
KentuckyFC writes "Just when you thought it was safe to switch on the LHC (though it won't be for a while yet), another nightmare scenario has emerged that some critics worry could cause the particle accelerator to explode. The culprit this time is not an Earth-swallowing black hole but a 'Bose supernova' in the accelerator's superfluid helium bath. Physicists have been playing with Bose Einstein Condensate (BECs) for over 10 years now. But in 2001, one group discovered that placing them in a powerful magnetic field could cause the attractive forces between atoms to become repulsive. That caused their BEC to explode in a Bose supernova — which they called a 'Bosenova,' a name that fortunately did not catch on. This was little more than a curiosity when only a microscopic blob of cold matter was involved. But superfluid liquid helium is also BEC. And physicists have suddenly remembered that the LHC is swimming in 700,000 liters of the stuff while being zapped by some of the most powerful magnetic fields on the planet. So is the LHC a Bose supernova waiting to go off? Not according to the CERN theory division, which has published its calculations that show the LHC is safe (abstract). They also point out that no other superfluid helium handling facility has mysteriously blown itself to pieces."
Let me assure you, there is nothing to be worried about. I'm watching a couple of guys fiddle with some of the magnets right now and they assure me that nothing can go wro
Does this mean we can just blame it on the Bosenova?
Blame it on the Bosenova.
About how big of a crater would 700,000 liters of liquid helium make?
Maybe in 4 years, on January 1st
It doesn't seem like there would be a sudden phase change in every part of the condensate. I bet there would be a tiny explosion here and there as little bits of it explode. It would manifest as a slight outgassing.
If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
Isn't amazing that whenever a new technological breakthrough occurs, it's instantly assumed that the End Is Nigh? If anyone remembers, atomic bombs were originally estimated to have a 15% chance to cause complete atmospheric ignition on a planetary scale. Also, it was a "generally well known fact" when cars were invented that going above 50 mph would cause the driver's lungs to collapse from wind pressure, as well as tear off his face. Don't you just love all those nightmare scenarios that keep popping up? It takes all the challenge out of creating new science fiction apocalypse scenarios!
"They also point out that no other superfluid helium handling facility has mysteriously blown itself to pieces."
True, but, no other SFH2 facility was wielding a 1Tev particle beam like it was a toy light saber, either.
Sig this!
An expanding BEC isn't anywhere close to a supernova. This would be similar to snapping the valve off of a liquid helium tank. The guys at CERN could blow themselves up with this, but that's about it. They could blow themselves up lots of ways.
It was called a "bosenova" because it shrinks before it expands, not because it's super destructive.
when anyone on the planet can whine an irrational complaint into the web-2.0 intertubes and expect someone to take them seriousy, reasonable discource doesn't scale. at some point, the people who know what they are doing in science simply need to tell the rest of the creationista, black-hole theorizing, dinosaur-living-with-people idiots to STFU and go away
[/rant]
Edyie Gorme called it: "Blame It On The Bosenova"
"I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
can we please stop grunting like frightened chimps every time we are on the verge of a new scientific break through?
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
due faulty capacitors, flawed theories and the current physics circus, in the end LHC is only a huge waste of money.
Q: What's funnier than running the world's largest particle collider while the janitor is inside, cleaning the pipes?
A: Nothing
I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
At least it will have terrific stereo sound.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
Not according to the CERN theory division,... They also point out that no other superfluid helium handling facility has mysteriously blown itself to pieces."
Nevermind that no other superfluid helium facilities will be operating magnets at the same amounts of power?
the Tralfamadorians say the same thing before they destroy the universe by mistake
Could it be worse than melting a 40-ton magnet, which actually happened?
HCG 50a = 2MASX J11170638+5455016
11h17m06.4s +54d55m02s
wtf is this doing on slashdot? this is STUPID
retraction, please
a rapid heating of the magnets without proper venting of the rapidly expanding gasses would cause more damage than this
Energy doesn't magically come from nowhere.
In this (imaginary) case, the energy in would be that of the magnetic field. Trying to spin this as a possible supernova plays on ignorance, is scaremongering, and is just plain wrong.
When did Slashdot turn into Fox News?
I know it's out of vogue, but I'd like to point out that if the LHC were to explode in a fireball whose energy exceeded the energy we put into it, it'd be a good thing for science -- imagine a new energy source we can use to power our further expansion into the universe?
The law of conservation of energy makes for some very unsexy conclusions, like the lhc is probably fairly safe from destroying the universe.
It's been a long time.
and we used to blow stuff up for fun when I was a kid. Now I work in an MRI research lab.
This sounds like something I need to try tomorrow.
We evaluate speculation about the possibility of a dangerous release of energy within the liquid Helium of the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) cryogenic system due to the occurrence of a "Bose-Nova". Bose-Novae are radial bursts of rapidly moving atoms which can occur when a Bose-Einstein Condensate (BEC) undergoes a collapse due the interatomic potential being deliberately made attractive using a magnetic field close to the Feshbach resonance. Liquid 4He has a monatomic structure with s-wave electrons, zero nuclear spin, no hyperfine splitting, and as a consequence no Feshbach resonance which would allow one to change its normally repulsive interactions to be attractive. Because of this, a Bose-Nova style collapse of 4He is impossible. Additional speculations concerning cold fusion during these events are easily dismissed using the usual arguments about the Coulomb barrier at low temperatures, and are not needed to explain the Bose-Einstein condensate Bose-Nova phenomenon. We conclude that that there is no physics whatsoever which suggests that Helium could undergo any kind of unforeseen catastrophic explosion.
Well, I am glad that is made clear.
That's the point of the myth: Apollo granted her the gift of prophesy, then cursed her by making it so nobody would ever believe her predictions.
"No highs, no lows" at least.
a small droplet might be the right volume(length) for the magnetic field to cause a resonance that would lead to repulsion. As I understand it a condensate acts like one large atom. The wave character could be resonated and the thing could gain energy until it pops apart. Maybe the large volume of the LHC would be able to dissipate that kind of thing. But wouldn't it be awesome if the whole thing blew up?
If perchance, the beams were improperly calibrated and they missed the normal intercept point and ended up crossing at another point in the collider.
Crossing the streams, that would be bad.
where's the Big Bang tag?
.
At best, this is one notch above voodoo....
From the summary:
"So is the LHC a Bose supernova waiting to go off? Not according to the CERN theory division, which has published its calculations that show the LHC is safe. They also point out that no other superfluid helium handling facility has mysteriously blown itself to pieces."
So, a "Bosenova explosion" under LHC-like conditions (1) can't happen according to theory, and (2) hasn't happened according to experiment either. Sheesh. I can concoct LHC disaster scenarios that are impossible according to theory and experiment too. Can I get on the Slashdot front page?
What happens when I put the crystal in with the super fluid helium and the magnetic fields? Will the Combine show up and take over the world in less than 24 hours?
It could go on national TV and make ludicrous claims about it's foreign policy experience and parrot republican campaign points.
> So is the LHC a Bose supernova waiting to go off? Not according to the CERN theory division, which has published its calculations that show the LHC is safe (abstract). They also point out that no other superfluid helium handling facility has mysteriously blown itself to pieces."
Yes, but did they account for a resonance cascade in the calculations? I know the chances of one occurring is extremely small, but I know I've seen one happen before.
Light a fire for a man and he'll be warm for a day. Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Searching for truth is not wrong.
But are there any end for these ?
You ask for more money build more powerful machine to do these tests.
And all of us know there is no end!
Even it is safe, even it is affordable, but
ARE THERE AN END of THESE?
When you stop these ?
Can we have alternative way to search for truth? Are these test essential?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The physics that allow us to build 5GHZ chips at 5nm is due to a thorough understanding of the atom. Our understanding of the atom is due to work done in 'atom smashers' like these.
This is not pointless science. Yes, we don't know what we will find, or how we will use it, but we will find something, and we will find it useful.
I can't say what history will record about the LHC. But it will be important, I can grant yo that.
Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
Does a bosanova put out more energy then you need to put in to cause the reaction? I'm assuming not.
If it does then this a possible energy source, huh? Shouldn't we be looking at harnessing this ala fusion?
If it doesn't, then I gather that no reaction the LHC could pour enough energy into to make happen would do much to the planet.
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Helium is inert gas. It does not react. Therefore it does not explode. End of story.
"The New Age. The New Beginning."
If they are right, they will never know.
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
I'm sure glad there's more certainty in economic and finance theory than physics; otherwise banks would be ....... we're fucked
Table-ized A.I.
they also said that gasoline powered cars will explode. Trust me, all this is perfecttly safe
which they called a 'Bosenova,' a name that fortunately did not catch on.
Speak for yourself! I like it.
Advice: on VPS providers
It went on line and the economy crashed.
Coincidence? I think not. Clearly it takes unbalanced chaotic systems and collapses them into the state most likely to actualize. The cloud of dreams which has been our economy since Reagan began inflating it with voodoo has been begging to collapse for some time. Thank-you Higgs Boson! Clearly, the LHC is a kind of Probability Drive.
I look forward to seeing what will happen next when they get it up and running again. If they run it in reverse, maybe it will turn missiles into potted plants and whales.
-FL
They also point out that no other superfluid helium handling facility has mysteriously blown itself to pieces."
what about the one at Atlantis? think about that ;)
The probability is a lot lower than finding somebody like Spiderman stopping a train that was runaway due to being struck by lightning because Tesla rose from his grave to acknowledge the bottle-nose dolphins for saying "So long, and thanks for all the fish."
There was over a 99% chance that the stock markets would be fine apparently...
but a 1% chance that it would melt down...
So.. IF this does blow up-- how bad is a 700k litre nova explosion?
A few miles? A few hundred miles? Half the planet?
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
superfluid Helium in the LHC cooling system
last comment ends with #23. safe and sound. safe and sound. satan, is that YOU?!
Holy shit! We really ARE all gonna die!
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
Pardon my snark. We've had particle particle accelerators for HOW long now? This is simply a bigger and better one.
Did we all die from those?
Did we all die when trains got faster than 50Mph?
Did we all die when we were finally able to surpass the sound barrier?
Did we all die in an ignited atmosphere when the Trinity test went off?
This stupid fucking technophobic bullshit is REALLY wearing on my nerves.
If you don't like it, move to Mars already and set up a hunter-gatherer utopia there. Just stop yammering in my fucking ear about how we're going to all kill ourselves fiddling with low mass particle collisions.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Seriously, next think you know the secretary of state for the bush administration and the heads of the christian coalition and the mackinac conservative think tank are going to announce the LHC is developing weapons of mass destruction, and we're dispatching a carrier group to the area.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
In your supercooled mood ring?
Magnetic fields of precisely tuned strengths (not particularly strong fields) can make certain atoms in an ultra-cold, ultra-low-pressure gas attract each other. It is only at much lower temperatures than that of liquid helium, in the more-than-icy stillness of nanokelvin gases, that the gentle collapse and rebound caused by sudden atomic attraction could ever be considered an explosion. 'Bosenova' was an apt name, but only by remote analogy.
The attraction effect does not work on helium, because there are no He-2 molecular states to provide a Feshbach resonance. And it does not work on liquids, because in a liquid the ordinary interactions between atoms are so much stronger anyway than anything this Feshbach effect would induce. It has nothing to do with superfluidity per se; it's a phenomenon of cold, dilute gases, which happen also to become superfluid in some cases. So no LHC liquid helium is going to go Bosenova.
Superconducting magnets themselves are quite dangerous if not handled properly. They can indeed explode: look up 'superconducting magnet quench'. The risk scale here is that of wrecking LHC equipment, however, not of turning the big ring into a crater. And it has nothing to do with Bosenovas.
With a natural concern for the fate of humanity, I read the headline, RTFAed and quickly came to the following realizations:
1) The concern is completely hypothetical and unsupported by all theory and practical experience
2) Even if point 1 was somehow flawed, the maximum energy given off by such an eventuality would hardly be enough to run my Honda for a year
3) Humanity is quite safe
4) Slashdot editors are making sh*t up as per usual
5) Everything is fine. You are a valuable and worthwhile human being who will probably live a long and happy life*
6) Exhale...
*Or get hit by a bus. Or die in any other way that has nothing whatsoever to do with the LHC.
Then, of course, it is all theory...and, quoting my financial adviser, "past performance is not a guarantee of the future"...but then, have this ever stopped us humans from going forward?
FWIW, where I work, we operate a superconducting tokamak (Tore Supra) with Niobium-Titanium alloy coils, supercritical helium for cryogeny and pretty nasty magnetic fields everywhere. A quench occured when the machine was switched on the first time (in 1988), because of an identified defect in the superconducting wire. But since then, the magnet has been working flawlessly and the coolant, monitored in real time, never exhibited any kind of unexpected phenomenon.
Also, people have been constantly working on this stuff since then, with even larger currents (hence larger magnetic fields) and I think it's pretty safe to assume that the LHC is gonna be fine (at least this part of the machine).
I admit that in not fully understanding as a whole the general science behind the LHC that I'm hesistant in having the experiment go on. I studied biology but particle physics lost me a long time ago. I think its neat that the technolgy, knowledge and scientists are available to have this experienment come to fruition. Moreover, the contruction of the LHC is amazing.
The problem: The public sees the media as being the credible source of information. Not the physicists at CERN nor independent ones.
I think that the public and media are hesitant to have the experiment go on because they really don't understand or remeber anything about science past 9th grade (if that even). Whether the reason (religion, education, moral, fear, end of the world, conspiracy theory, etc.) it seems that this is the same resistance to other science experiments of the past. Nuclear weapons had the same public reaction (and the world is definately not the same since then). But more comparatively 'simple' things in complexity either science-wise or the ability for the public to understand the science behing it like the Human Genome Project, Stem Cell research, Robotics have met the same media and public resistance. The world will end with Dolly the Sheep.
Particle physics is tough to understand. I've read the articles in the AP and watched some slightly more detailed interviews with CERN scientists. The general public isn't buying it. I think the CERN guys should do a piece for a major magazine(s) or newspaper. PR is where it's at.
I spent 5 years skydiving, my highest jump was from 23000 ft AGL. I in free fall for about 2 minutes. During free fall, I was doing over 120 mph with an open face helmet. IT WAS NOT HARD TO BREATH. Let me say that again IT WAS NOT HARD TO BREATH.
http://davesboat.blogspot.com/
Obviously you are BIASED because you work in the industry! Why should we believe YOU? Just because it WORKED? What kind of idiots do you take us for?
The kind who actually understand science?
Man... are you in for a surprise. Sorry, but we're just the general public, who can't be bothered to learn how our garbage disposal really works. Too gross.
Well, it's actually the flip side that worries me more: the willingness to ignore such possibilities and try anyway.
I mean, in the case of the LHC, ok, science as we know it says nothing evil can happen. I'm not worried much about that one.
But in the case of the atomic bombs tests, even some of the scientists working on them believed that there might be a chance it'll ignite the atmosphere and, basically, extinguish all life on Earth except maybe anaerobic bacteria at the bottom of the ocean. Turning the whole atmosphere into nitrous oxide wouldn't just suffocate all aerobic life, including in the oceans, but also drop the temperature because the brown atmosphere shields off the sun, and remove the UV shielding completely so anything above earth or in less than 2m or so of water gets deep fried by UV.
So, you know, then they went and detonated three of them anyway. You know, that 15% chance isn't all that exciting, so let's tripple it. (Ok, ok, I know it actually works out to only 39%. Which is still freaking scary, as odds for complete life extinction. You wouldn't play russian roulette with two chambers loaded, would you?)
It's that kind of irresponsibility as a species that worries me.
Maybe that's why we don't find space faring life out there. Maybe out of the billions of years a planet gets, it has only a few hundred years between discovering the radio and wiping itself out. And probably most don't even go out with an "eat hot fiery death, infidel!" but with a "hey, y'all, watch this!" :P
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
> Did we all die from those?
No: but to quote the small print on market-based savings plans: "Past performance is not necessarily an indicator of future performance" !
The news agencies were hoping to be writing sensational, tantalizing stories about the latest LHC results. Now, they forced to revert to tangential/side stories.
Next week we will get, "Meet the folks behind the LHC" and "What is liquid helium anyway, and how can I make it at home to amuse the kids."
They also point out that no other superfluid helium handling facility has mysteriously blown itself to pieces.
So far.
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
Well... actually, LHC's helium bath (1.9 K) is not cold enought to form a Bose-Einstein Condensate (~ mK), even if it is at a superfluid state... so please, let stop this fruitless discussion.
More likely, it'll go down like this:
The ATLAS experiment brings into existence the Higg's boson, messenger particle of the Higg's field. The Higg's field will expand the bundle of protons to the size of the universe in a trillion trillion trillionth of a second, using negative gravity. You do the math. The explosive force this represents strips every particle in the universe down to its identical elemental property. The phase change of the cooling Higg's field then restores the properties of the particles and, Bob's your uncle, the new universe unfolds.
...and we're dispatching a carrier group to the area.
That would be a sight worth seeing.
Anyone check on what Nostradamus has to say...apparently so. http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/1275645-geneva-worm
Would a Bose supernova sound great, but cost more than any other supernova?
The temperature of superfluid liquid helium is about 2 K if I remember correctly but the helium cooling collider's magnets is 4 K, so don't worry about it. Another point is that the amounts of energy after this "bomb" blows up can't be more then the energy accumulated in magnets, so we can't destruct neither Earth nor CERN
A bosenova or bose supernova is a very small, supernova-like explosion, which can be induced in a Boseâ"Einstein condensate (BEC) by changing the magnetic field in which the BEC is located, so that the BEC quantum wavefunction's self-interaction becomes attractive.
In the particular experiment when a bosenova was first detected, this procedure caused the BEC to implode and shrink beyond detection, and then suddenly explode. In this explosion, about half of the atoms in the condensate seem to have disappeared from the experiment altogether, remaining undetected either in the cold particle remnants or in the expanding gas cloud produced.
That's actually pretty interesting. So, it won't happen unless the magnetic field is changed in such a way that the quantum wavefunction becomes self-attractive (whatever that means.) So, don't do that and we're all set? Though, the part about it making atoms disappear is pretty cool. I wonder what actually happens to them...
-SaNo
I'm not sure I understand the physics as explained in TFA. Can anyone provide a car analogy?
Reply to That ||
The LHC is the greatest achievement of humanity to date, yet every other day someone wants to see it destroy the planet in some new, ridiculus way. In my humble opinion physics is probably the one most complex scientific field ( I studied physics for 2 years before i switched to math and comp sci and the latter are a yummy piece of cake compared to the first ) yet every other crazie (and ofc the media) thinks they know more than 3000++ physicists. ;-) )
I mean seriously, if you want the world destroyed just pick some other cause and enjoy what humanity build ( in these last days of time
It's impopssible for superfluid helium to 'go nova'. This impossibility is well understood by theory - It's not that there's a miniscule-but-nonzero chance, as there is that the LHC could spontaneously produce tiny dragons - In this case it's *impossible*.
Here's the explanation:
http://anticrackpot.blogspot.com/2008/09/there-will-be-no-bose-novae-at-lhc.html
And a personal request: Take a second to look some of this stuff up before you post an article like this that fuels unfounded (indeed, indefensible) fears.
Ideology breeds Hypocrisy. Just how much is up to you.
"Bosenova!"
...
"Chevy Nova?"
Name that Quote from 1990. Ill give you a hint, He was always the smart one...
Common Sense isn't as Common as people think...
I hadn't realized until now. The doomsday prediction comments above, assume that the bose supernova will focus ALL of its energy in one place. But in reality the explosion will take place either with a tiny part of all the Helium, or it will be simultaneous along all the LHC.
Or in the best case, a local explosion will cause the magnets to malfunction, preventing other explosions from taking place - but then again, the helium will simply escape through the holes.
Then again, I'm not a particle physicist.
You do know we sent a crowbar over to Freeman, right? They'd all be slaughtered like dogs.
Gordon Freeman when you need him?
Did anyone even read the actual article (not the bad blog post)? Or at *least* the abstract? http://arxiv.org/abs/0809.4004
In essence: He4 has no Feshbach resonance -> no possibility of tuning interaction -> no bose-nova
Soem thought the first nuclear test would ignite the Earth's atmosphere starting a chain reaction combusting all the Oxygen with the Nitrogen. Only a little of this happens in actual tests and meteorite entries.
I think his point was that Switzerland is land-locked. "Carriers" would have some issue with the whole "France/Italy" thing in the way.
Of course, we're the US, so these issues are by no means insurmountable, of course... What are a few impromptu canals between friends, right?
From the cited article:
unfortunately that assertion of superfluidity is not true. The liquid helium is only cold enough to make the niobium alloy windings in the magents superconductors (around 4 Kelvin), but are not cold enough to form Bose-Einstein Condensates (less than 2 Kelvin). While a 2 Kelvin temperature difference may not sound like a lot, when the temps are close to absolute zero the difference is quite large. Note that superconductivity was discovered in the 1960s and that BECs were first experimented with in the 1980s. The difference in several decades represented the difficulty of making such good refrigerators. That effort was not undertaken for the cooling plant for the LHC magnets, they only needed to allow supercurrents to create strong magnetic fields. Such fields are commonly created for NMR/MRI machines that operate in hospitals all over the world nowadays.
Another Way the LHC Could *Not* Self Destruct
Fixed.
There is one reason why we shouldn't worry. Every subatomic particle knows to SLOW DOWN when they enter the swiss territory anyway.
With all these horrible ways the LHC can end the Earth, it's gotten hard to keep abreast of how we are doing.
Internet to the rescue!
Turn your RSS reader to http://www.hasthelhcdestroyedtheearth.com/rss.xml and stay aware of the state of the world.
High energy particles are ubiquitous, low temperature environments (below 4.28k, as set by the CMB, have to be artifial. Bosons can superimpose themselves, which is one big property of a BEC. Supposing soemone made a very massive BEC say, a kilogramme, and it started to self-gravitate in a turbulence free environment? Is all that stands between us and immolation quantum vortices?
Oliver Sparrow aka anon coward
Performing the same experiments over and over again, and expecting different results.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
They have, after all, no highs or lows.
"These people look deep within my soul and assign me a number based on the order in which I joined" --Homer re:
ok. lol. really. :)
Interesting article but I stopped reading when the author went "And physicists have suddenly remembered ......"; a highly irresponsible comment even if were made in a lighter vein. It only helps to conjure up an erroneous image in the public mind.
-- posting as an User who forgot his login & pwd
I'll point mine directly at yours, you point yours directly at mine, and at the signal, we unleash our furious streams!
o sweet jesus what have i conjured up in my mind
Consciousness is a myth. Trust me.
nevermind. i read that (parent) as
The POOF is left to the student. :)
Temps for superfluidity are much lower than those needed for superconductivity. To get superfluid Helium you have to get a single isotope and cool it to something below 4K. The Helium used in the LHC is the normal kind (He3-He4 mix) and serves to get superconductivity in the magnets.
BTW every hospital has a few MRI using superconducting coils to get magnetic fields between 1 to 7 Tesla. The only thing to fear in the neighborhood of these babies is office chairs on wheels (scary but funny) and metal oxygen bottles (scary and not funny).
nuff said
...the sound quality from those new Bose Einstein Condensates is awesome!
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals... except the weasel."
YET.... But, after the magnetic attractions go into play... We goh hah uss a Tayxsus-styul COl-lesion... Iss goh look like a huge bowl oh gumbo at a boo-fay...
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Will there be a "Bossanova" explosion?
-
This is patently ridiculous, everyone knows that the world ends not with a WIMP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weakly_interacting_massive_particle but with a banker.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-yZifpgCR0
Or reading from an old textbook. Degrees was only dropped from the front of Kelvin in the 60's.
Just goes to show you don't really know what you're talking about!
Nick