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Indian GPS Cartographers Charged As Terrorists

chrb writes "Following on from the discussion about Apple disabling GPS in Egyptian iPhones, we have a new case of the conflict between the traditional secrecy of government, and the widening availability of cheap, accurate GPS devices around the world. On 5th December, two software engineers employed by Biond Software in India were arrested for mapping highways using vehicle based GPS devices. Further evidence against the pair emerged when it was found that a laptop they had been using in the car contained some photos of the local airforce base. The company claims they had been commissioned by Nokia Navigator to create maps of local roads and terrain. Following an investigation by the Anti Terrorist Squad of Gujarat the cartographers have now been charged with violating the Official Secrets Act and will remain in custody."

269 comments

  1. Well by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1, Insightful

    At least it isnt Guantanamo..

    --
    1. Re:Well by gnick · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You're kidding, right? I realize that Guantanamo isn't a resort, but I'd feel much safer there than in an Indian jail. Especially with the spot-light shining on it so brightly.

      Of course, this pair has only gone 3 days being held without an official charge...

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    2. Re:Well by gnick · · Score: 3, Informative

      Oops. I actually read the first linked article and jumped the gun (at that point they'd been held 3 days and not charged). TFS clearly indicates that they're facing charges for photographing the Air Force base.

      Of course, you can be detained for doing that in the US too. Not sure what exactly they charge you with.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    3. Re:Well by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Of course, you can be detained for doing that in the US too. Not sure what exactly they charge you with.

      Really? I wonder what happened to the Google employees who took these photos?

    4. Re:Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I realize that Guantanamo isn't a resort, but I'd feel much safer there than in an Indian jail.

      You're kidding, right? This is the place that keeps prisoners hooded and shackled even AFTER THEY HAVE BEEN RELEASED.

    5. Re:Well by Warll · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well isn't it obvious? He followed Google Map's road lay out and drove right into the fence.

    6. Re:Well by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      Make sense if you are going to post. Geez.

    7. Re:Well by l0ungeb0y · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Clearly taking photos of the dumpster whore^ is an issue effecting our national security.

      I for one am outraged.

    8. Re:Well by sholsinger · · Score: 1

      Actually, its illegal (where posted) to take unauthorized photographs while within the perimeter of an installation in the USA.

    9. Re:Well by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 2

      For the record, hoods + shackles are a hell of a lot more preferable to tuberculosis, malnutrition, and unsafe water.

      I would snap up a chance to do time at Gitmo vs. just about any jail/prison outside of the 1st world.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    10. Re:Well by xs650 · · Score: 1

      Did anyone else read that as Geronimo?

    11. Re:Well by Kjellander · · Score: 4, Insightful

      For the record, hoods + shackles are a hell of a lot more preferable to tuberculosis, malnutrition, and unsafe water.

      I would snap up a chance to do time at Gitmo vs. just about any jail/prison outside of the 1st world.

      And I would snap up a chance to do time in any Western European prison instead of being tortured at Gitmo or anal raped in a mainland US prison. You guys aren't treating your prisoners right.

    12. Re:Well by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Oops. I actually read the first linked article and jumped the gun (at that point they'd been held 3 days and not charged). TFS clearly indicates that they're facing charges for photographing the Air Force base.

      Of course, you can be detained for doing that in the US too. Not sure what exactly they charge you with.

      Violation of laws prohibiting the unauthorized photography of certain types of US defense installations. The reason you are taking the photographs is irrelevant to whether or not you can be charged with a crime.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    13. Re:Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And they didn't treat society right in the first place.

  2. Why is this article title red?

    --
    <xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
    1. Re:Wat? by ChienAndalu · · Score: 1

      I think those are "brand new" articles (without comments?). But I have seen it only once..

    2. Re:Wat? by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      A red headline usually means this article has been approved for the front page but hasn't reached the front page yet. You should only see them if you're a subscriber.

      In the early days of the Firehose, non-subscribers could see such red-headlined articles before they hit the front page.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    3. Re:Wat? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Why is this article title red?

      *Sigh* This question keeps getting asked, so I feel duty-bound to inform you of the true answer.

      It's a test of your sexuality; only people who enjoy performing sexual acts with four-legged mammals of various equine species see it as red- it looks green to the rest of us.

      There- now I don't expect to see anyone asking that question again. :)

      P.S. If there's anyone out there who sees it as purple with yellow stripes, please contact me *immediately*.

    4. Re:Wat? by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      I saw it yellow with purple polka dots...
      Am I ok?

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    5. Re:Wat? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should only see them if you're a subscriber.

      In that case, it isn't working correctly.

    6. Re:Wat? by the_bard17 · · Score: 2, Funny

      You've been putting what where?

      Never mind, I don't want to know...

  3. Charged As Terrorists? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ah another misleading /. headline. Being charged under the Official Secrets Act is not being charged under anti-terrorism laws.

    1. Re:Charged As Terrorists? by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 5, Funny

      GPS information is an official secret?

      "Where am I?"
      "You have no right to know that."

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    2. Re:Charged As Terrorists? by DougF · · Score: 2, Informative

      GPS information is an official secret?

      No, but certain locations, aircraft configurations, and equipment ARE secret and videos/pictures of them when supposedly out collecting GPS info is grounds for interrogation and subsequent charges under the Official Secrets Act.

      --
      Impetuous! Homeric!
    3. Re:Charged As Terrorists? by Teresita · · Score: 1

      In Soviet Russia Putin authorized open access to the civilian navigation signals of the GLONASS system, to Russian and foreign consumers, free of charge and without limitations. That's an astonishing thing, considering the remarkable coverage provided by the system, but I suppose they don't have those Capitalist animal spirits yet!

    4. Re:Charged As Terrorists? by sdpuppy · · Score: 1

      "Where am I?" "You have no right to know that."

      "you are here!"
      knock knock.. uh oh

    5. Re:Charged As Terrorists? by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 1

      GPS information is an official secret?

      "Where am I?"
      "You have no right to know that."

      Sweet, I smell money in turning a magic 8 ball into an India and Egypt compatible GPS:

      1. Ask where you are
      2. Shake the 'GPS'
      3. Get presented with answers such as "You are here", "You aren't there", "You are on Earth", "You are lost", "Ask again later", "Use a Map"

      Though in some cases this may still be too much information for local authorities ;)

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    6. Re:Charged As Terrorists? by cyphercell · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So, in order to keep the air force base data out of the GPS system wouldn't they need to know where it was?

      --
      Under the influence of Post-Cyberpunk Gonzo Journalism
    7. Re:Charged As Terrorists? by BSAtHome · · Score: 1

      Yes, you must not look and register any airforce base. Please use Google for that detail.

    8. Re:Charged As Terrorists? by matrim99 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Actually, to stay out of trouble, they'd be safer knowing every location that it is NOT at, and extrapolating from there.

      Tongue, cheek, and all that.

      --
      Right. No, your other right. No, the other other right.
    9. Re:Charged As Terrorists? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Ironically, this makes the job a lot easier for the opposition. All the Pakis have to do is aim their missiles at the black/blank/low-res squares on the sattelite maps. That way they're bound to hit something they're not supposed to know about if a conflict ever occurs.

      Actually, the smarter thing is to show some limited detail of the base (but not to the point where the resolution drop is noticable) but not allow any timely release of information. That is, you can show the base - but whatever data is released must be more than a month old. That way the data is mostly useless from an intelligence perspective.

    10. Re:Charged As Terrorists? by Strep · · Score: 1

      WTF??? GPS data linked to roads is an Official Secret? Frickin' Indian Govt... trying to one-up the aussies ... who are trying to one-up the Mehrikans.

    11. Re:Charged As Terrorists? by Sloppy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So, in order to keep the air force base data out of the GPS system wouldn't they need to know where it was?

      For some reason this reminds me of telemarketers' Do Not Call list.

      Or the "opt out" link on spam, whereby one can click to say, "Yes, I'm here and I read my spam, so please stop sending it."

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    12. Re:Charged As Terrorists? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Yes, we otherwise wouldn't know that the runway intersection at Jamnagat AFS is at 22 deg 27'59.71"N 70 deg 00'40.82"E and the there are lots of MiG 21s there.

      Posting AC just in case...

    13. Re:Charged As Terrorists? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Folks, there are plenty of countries, like Ecuador and Russia, where the distribution of *accurate* maps is controlled. I was warned while in Ecuador not to let a cop see me with a map. Publicly available maps in Russia are better now, but be careful.

      http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE7D8123AF934A25755C0A966958260&sec=travel&spon=&pagewanted=2

    14. Re:Charged As Terrorists? by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 1

      ...and there were lots of MiG 21's there 2-3 years ago...

      Fixed that for you

      --
      FGD 135
    15. Re:Charged As Terrorists? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      whereever you go, there you are..

    16. Re:Charged As Terrorists? by joocemann · · Score: 1

      GPS information is an official secret?

      "Where am I?"
      "You have no right to know that."

      Nice joke, but it is out of context of what the issue is. These people took photographs of places they are forbidden to take photographs of.

      Read the articles. It is very clear that these people violated laws, and though they may claim ignorance, we all know that ignorance is no excuse.

      Here's a simple rule of thumb: Don't take pictures of any government or military facilities unless you know for sure that it is ok to do so.

    17. Re:Charged As Terrorists? by davolfman · · Score: 2, Funny

      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.

    18. Re:Charged As Terrorists? by characterZer0 · · Score: 1

      No, Indian road locations are an official secret. If somebody were to be able to make an accurate map, people could figure out how to get places without driving around forever, miles driven would be cut by an order of magnitude; the effect on the auto industry, oil industry, and cab industry would be catastrophic.

      --
      Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
    19. Re:Charged As Terrorists? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about not parking said vehicles in public?!!

    20. Re:Charged As Terrorists? by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Of course they could have been driving around lost on bad route info with an automated camera happily snapping photos and videos.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    21. Re:Charged As Terrorists? by joocemann · · Score: 1

      Of course they could have been driving around lost on bad route info with an automated camera happily snapping photos and videos.

      It would be wise, then, to assess the actions you may unintentionally take part in, and the legality of such action.

      Of course they could also have been privately approached by a foreign intelligence service, manipulated by means easily induced, and asked to use their job as a cover while procuring specific tasked media.

      Sounds like the reckless are finding recourse for reckless disregard. I've posted prior on this topic that they are lucky they weren't caught on my own property, ignorantly or not.

  4. Re:Crazy Indians? by Teresita · · Score: 5, Funny

    The most dangerous thing in the world is a second lieutenant with a map and a compass.

  5. Cosmic Rays Do Not Explain glowbull warmongering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    no, that terrorism is caused by greed, fear & ego run amok. better days ahead.

  6. With a name like "The Official Secrets Act" by jeffmeden · · Score: 5, Funny

    "You are in violation of the Official Secrets Act, you are under arrest."

    "The official secrets act? What's that?"

    "An official secret. Now put your hands behind your back. You have the right to remain ignorant of your crimes. You have the right to a low quality attorney. And you have the right to not ask any more stupid questions..."

    1. Re:With a name like "The Official Secrets Act" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "You are in violation of the Official Secrets Act, you are under arrest."

      Correction: That's the Official Secrets Act of 1923.

      From TFA, here's what got led to the charges:

      The laptop contained Army personnel marching at Wagah border, video recording of a bus headed from India to Lahore, clipping of Jamnagar airport that is also used by Air Force fighter planes.

      "Their digital camera too had clippings of some prohibited spots - a photo of Jamnagar airport's main gate, boundary walls and also buildings. The two had also attempted to shoot a blue fighter aircraft. Air Force campus and station is situated right beside the Jamnagar airport and photography and videography in this zone is prohibited,"

      Presumably, everything they recorded was viewable from public roadways since neither linked articles mentioned anything about criminal trespassing. I wonder how many of India's citizenry or tourists know about the ban on photographing those areas? Were there any signs posted? Anyway the whole mess sounds like an overreaction due to the Mumbai shootings.

    2. Re:With a name like "The Official Secrets Act" by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      You shouldn't have been modded as funny, since its the truth.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    3. Re:With a name like "The Official Secrets Act" by techno-vampire · · Score: 3, Insightful
      That's the Official Secrets Act of 1923.

      India didn't become an independent nation until after WW II. Checking Wikipedia, I find that this law was held over from the British colonial administration. Interesting.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    4. Re:With a name like "The Official Secrets Act" by davidsyes · · Score: 1

      I don't suppose either party will exclaim to the other, "POUND SAND"...

      (Here in the US/ex-navy frame of mind, i take it to mean "pound and pack sand in your ass for all i care, and cap it off with a Bosun's fid")

      --
      Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
    5. Re:With a name like "The Official Secrets Act" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Indian law is drawn from British law. There are still many remnants in it today. Some of these laws have been long disbanded in Britain itself but continue to be active in India, since after independence, India did not look at British law for guidance, quite appropriately.

      Good examples are the anti-gay laws. Ancient India was not anti-gay but British law was and even though Britain has opened up, the independent India has not updated it since. This is simply a matter of slow bureaucracy and limited activism rather than anything else.

    6. Re:With a name like "The Official Secrets Act" by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 1

      Interesting

      No, you got "Insightful". Better luck next time.

    7. Re:With a name like "The Official Secrets Act" by joocemann · · Score: 1

      These people had no sufficient or compelling reason to be photographing all those locations; they also took what sounds like a lot more than one or two pictures. I am a bit suspicious as to who told them to take so many and with such specific focus. From your quote from the article, this sounds a lot like deliberate IMINT collection.

    8. Re:With a name like "The Official Secrets Act" by Keen+Anthony · · Score: 1

      Pretty likely it is a knee-jerk reaction to the Mumbai shootings. There are incidents of photographers running into trouble with NYPD for photographing the Statue of Liberty not long after September 11th.

      But as for signs being posted. I don't know to what degree the Indian legal system follows the English system, but it likely doesn't matter that no signs are posted. Were I to travel to India, I automagically know every law of India on the books cause of that whole legal fallacy thing.

    9. Re:With a name like "The Official Secrets Act" by puhuri · · Score: 1

      It is not that uncommon to have laws that are older than the nation. For example Finnish criminal law dates to 19th December in 1889 (Happy 119th birthday!) and is given by Tsar Alexander III of Russia.

      Of course, it has been updated many times, last time 14th November this year.

    10. Re:With a name like "The Official Secrets Act" by Garridan · · Score: 1

      The truth is often funny. Consider, for example, the platypus.

    11. Re:With a name like "The Official Secrets Act" by upside · · Score: 1

      The same applies to pretty much any former colony. I remember my history teacher giving some interesting examples, something like building regulations that stipulate roofs having to be strong enough to support the weight of x inches of snow ... useful in the tropics.

      --
      I'm sorry if I haven't offended anyone
    12. Re:With a name like "The Official Secrets Act" by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      Actually, that was just a comment on the fact that they're still using that law, although I agree that Interesting would have been a more appropriate moderation.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    13. Re:With a name like "The Official Secrets Act" by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      I hope the building code in Las Vegas is written that way.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    14. Re:With a name like "The Official Secrets Act" by iJusten · · Score: 1

      The Finnish law concerning building, use and allocation of village's land (Rakennuskaari) dates back to 1734 (happy 274th!) and King Frederik I. It has outlived both Swedish and Russian rule and is still in use.

      --
      Chronologically late.
    15. Re:With a name like "The Official Secrets Act" by Stanislav_J · · Score: 1

      The whole notion that one can be prohibited from photographing something viewable to the naked eye from public property is patently absurd. If it's so secret, put a wall around it.

      Oh, wait...

      "Their digital camera too had clippings of some prohibited spots - a photo of Jamnagar airport's main gate, boundary walls and also buildings."

      Maybe they need to erect a boundary wall to prevent people from taking pictures of the boundary wall....

      --
      "Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket." -- Eric Hoffer
    16. Re:With a name like "The Official Secrets Act" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm an Indian. Buildings and installations covered under official secrets act have a clear sign that says "photography is prohibited and you can be charged under the act for violation".

      So if they did photograph the air force base then they basically broke the law and have been charged. What's the problem?

      Try taking photos of a secret Army, Air Force installation in US and see wat happens ... guarantee the same result.

      There is nothing to see here ... move on.

  7. Bankrupting justice by nightfire-unique · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Governments spend billions of dollars and many years building up their credibility. Every time the justice system fails, that credit is lost. In time, if corrective measures aren't taken, the justice department finds itself bankrupt - people have zero respect for the law (because it is corrupt), and much contempt for the law. Society becomes lawless.

    And not just for the commoner - government workers break the law as well, and for the same reason. Lack of respect.

    I posit that debiting the "justice account" by making examples of people, we (regardless of which country) fundamentally damage society and lay burden on those who will follow. It is immoral, and must be stopped.

    --
    A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
    1. Re:Bankrupting justice by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You know, before you mock the Indian government here, it should be noted that there *ARE* Pakistani spies and terrorists in India. And this sort of thing is exactly the kind of behavior you would expect out of them (particularly with the recent Indian/Pakistani tensions, the recent terrorist attack, and the possibility of an Indian airstrike against Pakistan's intelligence office). It may be a rush to judgment to condemn them, but it may also be a rush to judgment to just assume that they're just innocent mapmakers who happen to have extensive pictures of Indian air force bases too.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    2. Re:Bankrupting justice by russotto · · Score: 2, Funny

      Governments spend billions of dollars and many years building up their credibility. Every time the justice system fails, that credit is lost. In time, if corrective measures aren't taken, the justice department finds itself bankrupt - people have zero respect for the law (because it is corrupt), and much contempt for the law. Society becomes lawless.

      Not all governments. Some governments have wisely looked ahead, realized this process is inevitable, and saved the initial outlay. Modern cases in point are Mexico and Russia.

    3. Re:Bankrupting justice by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Welcome to slashdot!

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    4. Re:Bankrupting justice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      really? terrorists drive around with obvious sensors on top of their cars? yea right, moron.

    5. Re:Bankrupting justice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      could be a double-bluff...

    6. Re:Bankrupting justice by Blademan007 · · Score: 1

      Indian security doesn't want you to take pictures of Boeing and Airbus airplanes up close for "security reasons." I've never had problems taking picures of airplanes anywhere else in the world. I've been to India, and had it happen to me, personally, on multiple occasions.

    7. Re:Bankrupting justice by Keen+Anthony · · Score: 1

      WTFE, There *ARE* spies and terrorists in America, and this is exactly the kind of behavior you would expect out of them... let's just proceed with utter fear and paranoia.

      Are these guys even photographers by trade? I am one, and I've never known even a hobbyist photographer who thought it was particularly wise to take very specific photos of federal installations. Unless they're just stupid, they might just be employees who were tossed a camera and told to go out and shoot without any advance training.

    8. Re:Bankrupting justice by ami.one · · Score: 1

      Great! So now we are SAFE? because real terrorists don't use google earth or the likes, they roll their own Maps?

      With the increased Security Theatre in India, here's the current joke in our office:- Heavily armed terrorists arrive from Karachi; See that our office has smart card access control on every SINGLE door. Call up their masters on the Sat Phone and report that they are unable to do anything as doors are access controlled.

      Incidentally, Reliance has asked for anti aircraft guns to protect its refinery (as its quite close to Pakistan border)

    9. Re:Bankrupting justice by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      Even paranoids have enemies.
      The fact that terrorists will make unusual actions should not make it illegal to act strangely. A country that imposes a norm in behavior has lost an important thing as a democracy and lost an important thing to terrorists attacks.
      Nobody said that law enforcement against terrorists is easy, but going into hysteria will do nothing to arrest terrorists and nothing to preserve freedom.

      In the current case, it is not the map-making that makes a terrorist, it is the intent to attack. Terrorists make maps, right, they also use computers and travel in several places, they also speak foreign language, they are critical of the state of the world. Should we outlaw all of these ?

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    10. Re:Bankrupting justice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is what they want you to think. Or is it...

    11. Re:Bankrupting justice by Agripa · · Score: 1

      I mock any government relying on brittle security measures including my own. Despite the nature of India's security problems, they have adopted a strategy that relies too much on cooperation from their enemies. Their current course will only delay without otherwise ameliorating an intractable terrorist enemy. To be fair however, their society is probably not amenable to strong civil defense.

    12. Re:Bankrupting justice by juan2074 · · Score: 1

      Just like North Korea and al-Queda working together?

    13. Re:Bankrupting justice by mikiN · · Score: 1

      Sewn for sdern, maff that stutters.

      --
      The Hacker's Guide To The Kernel: Don't panic()!
  8. Judge Moron by should_be_linear · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How about Google Maps having photos of same roads already for *years*. Made by flying holy cow.

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    839*929
    1. Re:Judge Moron by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      In Soviet India, flying holy cows map YOU!

  9. First link dead! by Seakip18 · · Score: 1

    Ummm...that first link doesn't work at all. Way to go editors.

    Anyways, this really sucks for them. The article doesn't really say what they are being charged with or why having maps is such a bad thing. Lord knows I'd hate to be "grilled" for simply collecting data. Very scary.

    --
    import system.cool.Sig;
    1. Re:First link dead! by gordguide · · Score: 1

      '... Lord knows I'd hate to be "grilled" for simply collecting data. ..."

      Fastest way I know to "Get Grilled".

      Don't ask so many questions, you'll be allright.

  10. Don't Classify yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unless more is known, they shouldn't be classified as terrorists.
    India doesn't foster terrorists and I certainly hope they are not in the personas of Software Engineers.

    1. Re:Don't Classify yet by DougF · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      India doesn't foster terrorists

      I think a number of Pakistanis would disagree with your statement, particularly in the Kashmir region.

      --
      Impetuous! Homeric!
  11. RTFA by Sta7ic · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The Times of India article claims that the two are being held and charged more for having film of an airport and an air force base, than they are for collecting GPS data. Using a DUI for an analogy, the poor lane control would be the GPS dish, and the film of the air facilities the half-empty beer bottle.

    1. Re:RTFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      I'm glad somebody took the time to make a car analogy for me, otherwise I wouldn't have understood this at all...

    2. Re:RTFA by Sta7ic · · Score: 2, Funny

      Technically, it's been a van analogy, but hey.

    3. Re:RTFA by yoshi_mon · · Score: 1

      Fair enough. But that the government in question is trying to charge them at all for gathering GPS data is pretty lame.

      --

      Really, I know what I'm doing...Ohhhh, look at the shiny buttons!
    4. Re:RTFA by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but if it is a van made in India, it is probably about the same size as a US "compact" car, so the car analogy holds.

      --
      This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    5. Re:RTFA by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 3, Funny

      ...it's been a van analogy

      Ranjan Foley: Living in a van, down by the Ganges.

    6. Re:RTFA by dangitman · · Score: 1

      Using a DUI for an analogy, the poor lane control would be the GPS dish, and the film of the air facilities the half-empty beer bottle.

      So, what's the dead hooker in the back seat?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    7. Re:RTFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More sport for the Indian police?

  12. Proof India's gov is not corrupt and incompetent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Which ironically makes them look corrupt and incompetent...

  13. Wait a sec... by UltraMathMan · · Score: 4, Informative

    According to TFA they were arrested for "snooping around Jamnagar" which according to Wikipedia "has shot to prominence as Reliance Industries, India's largest private company, established the world's largest [oil] refinery near Moti Khavdi village."

    So very basically, this seems akin so someone driving in a car, decked out with electronics, around say, a nuclear power plant in the U.S. Not saying the charges are or aren't appropriate and there's no information as to how close to said refinery they actually were, but given the area through which they were traveling they should have expected some attention.

    Wikipedia Article

    --
    Registered Linux User #423733
  14. Re:Crazy Indians? by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 5, Interesting
    My buddy served time in Iraq right around the same time Jessica Lynch's unit was attacked. Though the Wikipedia explanation is:

    The convoy was supposed to detour around the town and instead turned directly into it, eventually running into an ambush. The ambush was unlikely to have been set up in advance, because the Iraqis did not know which course the convoy would take. The navigational error has never been properly explained, because the soldiers had GPS receivers and maps

    My buddy revealed that it was common knowledge in the sandbox that the Officer in charge of the convoy, Capt. Troy Kent King, was the one who was responsible for making the wrong turns. According to google searches, the report is classified Secret and so the official cause is still "unknown".

    So that's what happens when LT's with a map and compass go on to become captains.

  15. Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    I'm an Indian. Buildings and installations covered under official secrets act have a clear sign that says "photography is prohibited and you can be charged under the act for violation".

    So if they did photograph the air force base then they basically broke the law and have been charged. What's the problem?

    Try taking photos of a secret Army, Air Force installation in US and see what happens ... guarantee the same result.

    There is nothing to see here ... move on.

    1. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by QuasiEvil · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, no, you can legally photograph nearly everything you can see from public land in the US. There are a few places where they're known to lack a sense of humor about it, but almost everything is fair game. (That said, there are a few rare restrictions on such things.)

      Now understanding that this is the law in your country, and it is (apparently) clearly posted, well... yeah, they broke the law and got caught. As usual, /. distorts the story.

    2. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      I think you're lying. Post some pics of those signs in front the aforementioned buildings and installations and I'll believe you.

    3. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by zappy5000 · · Score: 1

      Dear QuasiEvil,

      You are (almost) completely wrong about this. Go to ANY military airfield in the USA; there are signs specifying two things: It is a US Govermnent property site, so you must abide by all rules, regulations, and laws. Failure results in prosecution. Photogrophy is prohibited. To make a photograph is a Federal offense.

      Same regulations can apply to military shipping ports and high-tech facilities.

      Now I know that you will cite the cases of folks photographing "Area 51" / Grooms Lake in Nevada as not being prosecuted. Actually, it more a case of the authorities not being able to apprehend the camera men in the act. Recall the the Air Force also places several types of sensors so they know when folks are trying to take a photo from afar; these folks are are chased.

      --
      Zappy5000
    4. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by radish · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not so rare any more. Pretty much all the tunnels & bridges in NYC are "no photo" zones. Take a look at this entertaining gallery for examples.

      --

      ---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"

    5. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by the_womble · · Score: 5, Interesting
    6. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 2, Informative

      Go to ANY military airfield in the USA; there are signs specifying two things: It is a US Govermnent property site, so you must abide by all rules, regulations, and laws. Failure results in prosecution. Photogrophy is prohibited. To make a photograph is a Federal offense.

      Agreed. However, you have to reread the QuasiEvil's post where he said (emphasis mine):

      you can legally photograph nearly everything you can see from public land in the US.

      Which means if you are standing on public land which is not part of the US Government property site, you can take pictures of the US Government property site even though photography while on the site is prohibited.

      That said, I would imagine that most sites that have said regulations are not particularly close to public land and/or have some sort of obstruction to keep people from taking photographs.

    7. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by gonz · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, no, you can legally photograph nearly everything you can see from public land in the US. There are a few places where they're known to lack a sense of humor about it, but almost everything is fair game.

      A few years ago I took a tourist photo of the Pentagon in D.C. from just outside the metro stop, which is pretty far away from the building. A security officer came and asked me to delete the photo from my camera. I explained that it wasn't a digital camera, but rather a disposable film camera. He said that officially he should make me throw it away, but instead allowed me to go on condition that I didn't take any more photos.

      You're right that the law allows people to take tourist photos. But where "security" is concerned, it apparently doesn't matter what the law says.

      -Gonz

    8. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by confused+one · · Score: 1

      In the US, as long as you're standing outside the fence, there's nothing preventing you from taking all the pictures you want. I wouldn't recommend driving around ON the base while taking pictures, however. Google has pretty good aerial photos of the air base where I live; and, the street view clearly shows the base as seen along the fence line.

    9. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      Its still wrong.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    10. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by BlueStrat · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, no, you can legally photograph nearly everything you can see from public land in the US. There are a few places where they're known to lack a sense of humor about it, but almost everything is fair game. (That said, there are a few rare restrictions on such things.)

      Now understanding that this is the law in your country, and it is (apparently) clearly posted, well... yeah, they broke the law and got caught. As usual, /. distorts the story.

      As to US laws, here's what 18 USC 795 has to say (in part).

      "Whenever, in the interests of national defense, the President defines certain vital military and naval installations or equipment as requiring protection against the general dissemination of information relative thereto, it shall be unlawful to make any photograph, sketch, picture, drawing, map, or graphical representation of such vital military and naval installations or equipment without first obtaining permission of the commanding officer of the military or naval post, camp, or station, or naval vessels, military and naval aircraft, and any separate military or naval command concerned, or higher authority, and promptly submitting the product obtained to such commanding officer or higher authority for censorship or such other action as he may deem necessary."

      Executive Order 10104, 1 Feb 1950:

      "... it shall be unlawful to make any photograph, sketch, picture, drawing, map, or graphical representation of such vital military and naval installations or equipment..."

      Atomic Energy Commission, US Code, Title 42, Cap 23, Div A, Subchap XVII, Sec 2278b:

      "It shall be an offense...to make any photograph, sketch, picture, drawing, map or graphical representation, while present on property subject to the jurisdiction, administration or in the custody of the Commission."

      The laws w.r.t. photography/videography/general data-gathering concerning anything that could be construed as sensitive are very broad, and enforcement and interpretation varies enormously. Making assumptions here can get one in deep trouble very quickly with many large, angry, heavily-armed men, one of which might be thinking to himself; "I wonder if I could just shoot this idiot? If my buddy Smitty is Officer Of The Day today, he'd probably cover me in the report.".

      Cheers!

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    11. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quoting from two separate times of India articles

      "The company says the two were surveying Saurashtra to collect data and maps for GPS services meant for mobile phone companies and other corporate houses. But, the company officials had not taken prior permission required for any such activity ," said Jamnagar police officials.
      http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Ahmedabad/GPS_surveyors_booked_under_OSA_/articleshow/3831158.cms

      "Usually an application intimating the district administration and police, detailing our nature work is sent. However, sometimes it happens that due to our elaborate mapping and presence of GPS device, our personnel have to explain their work. In this case, it seems, the application did not reach the district or police headquarters," said company spokesperson, Tulsi Das. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/Ahmedabad/ATS_questioning_the_duo_in_GPS_case_from_Jamnagar/articleshow/3810468.cms

      Most likely the officer who made the arrest had no idea what a GPS is, so you cannot really blame them for taking some security precautions. Hopefully this will be sorted out in the end.

    12. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      India's Official Secrets Act 1923 does not only cover secret Army installations. It is quite broad in what is considered relevant objects:

      8) "prohibited place" means -

      (a) any work of defence, arsenal, naval, military or air force establishment or station, mine, minefield, camp, ship or aircraft belonging to, or occupied by or on behalf of, Government, any military telegraph or telephone so belonging or occupied, any wireless or signal station or office so belonging or occupied and any factory, dockyard or other place so belonging or occupied and used for the purpose of building, repairing, making or storing any munitions of war, or any sketches, plans, models or documents relating thereto, or for the purpose of getting any metals, oil or minerals of use in time of war;

      (b) any place not belonging to Government where any munitions or war or any sketches, models, plans or documents relating thereto, are being made, repaired, gotten or stored under contract with, or with any person on behalf of, Government, or otherwise on behalf of Government;

      (c) any place belonging to or used for the purpose of Government which is for the time being declared by the Central Government, by notification in the Official Gazette, to be a prohibited place for the purposes of this Act on the ground that information with respect thereto, or damage thereto, would be useful to an enemy, and to which a copy of the notification in respect thereof has been affixed in English and in the vernacular of the locality;

      (d) any railway, road, way or channel, or other means of communication by land or water (including any works or structures being part thereof or connected therewith) or any place used for gas, water or electricity works or other works for purposes of a public character, or any place where any munitions of war or any sketches, models, plans, or documents relating thereto, are being made, repaired, or stored otherwise than on behalf of Government, which is for the time being declared by the Central Government, by notification in the Official Gazette, to be a prohibited place for the purposes of this Act on the ground that information with respect thereto, or the destruction or obstruction thereof, or interference therewith, would be useful to an enemy, and to which a copy of the notification in respect thereof has been affixed in English and in the vernacular of the locality;

      And since it is hopelessly antiquated it is kind of problematic.

      But still, you are right, it's nothing outrageous, just a law that needs some update to come to terms with modern technology and habits.

    13. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by chrb · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The British police are also interested in those odd people who walk around with GPS devices and then start drawing maps in a cafe. OpenStreetMappers beware.

    14. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by mdmkolbe · · Score: 5, Funny

      Go to ANY military airfield in the USA; there are signs specifying two things

      Could you provide a photo of these signs to back up your claim?

    15. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by VisceralLogic · · Score: 1

      ; there are signs specifying two things: It is a US Govermnent property site... Photogrophy is prohibited

      Sure, if you go on the base property. But I think by "public" land the GP meant more along the lines of the public road that goes by the base. There may not be a gate preventing access to the base property, but it's no longer public land.

      --
      Stop! Dremel time!
    16. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by chrb · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The engineers were initially arrested for GPS surveying - despite the fact that Google Maps appears to have quite a detailed map of Jamnagar (including the airforce base).

      The fact that the police actually found some incriminating photos afterwards doesn't mean that the original arrest was reasonable - using a GPS device isn't a crime, and shouldn't give the police license to search the rest of your equipment looking for further evidence.

      As to whether photographing an air force base should be a crime in the first place - let me introduce a detailed aerial photo of Jamnagar Air Force Base! Also try searching for Jamnagar AFB on Google images :-) You can't put the cat back in the bag, and this kind of inadvertent information leakage is exactly what I was talking about when I noted the conflict between the traditional secrecy of the military/government and cheap, accurate personal electronics.

    17. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by VisceralLogic · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Go to ANY military airfield in the USA; there are signs specifying two things

      Could you provide a photo of these signs to back up your claim?

      LOL!

      --
      Stop! Dremel time!
    18. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm an Indian. Buildings and installations covered under official secrets act have a clear sign that says "photography is prohibited and you can be charged under the act for violation".

      So if they did photograph the air force base then they basically broke the law and have been charged. What's the problem?

      In UK, those signs only apply once you're inside the fence and past the guardhouse (obviously it doesn't make sense to ban photography from a public area, or at least I hope that would be obvious).

    19. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1

      Could you provide a photo of these signs to back up your claim?

      You can't read them (two white blobs), but here they are. Langley AFB VA, just outside the West Gate.

    20. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by bertramwooster · · Score: 1

      Well, I do not know about that. I tried taking pictures at a NYC subway station and immediately a cop came over and asked me not to take pictures. I do not know if it was legal or not though.

    21. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by chrb · · Score: 1

      So if they did photograph the air force base then they basically broke the law and have been charged. What's the problem?

      The problem is that the secret is already out. Wikimapia has a detailed photo of Jamnagar Air Force Base, the exact same base that these guys have been charged with taking photos of. Not only that, but metadata has been added that is obviously from people who work on the base - check out the Mig 29s, 28 squadron air force, Mig 21s, choppers, swimming pool, school, gymnasium, canteen; it's all there, even the very personal tag "SSQ (Anshu was born here 11 Dec 02)". The proud father who wrote that is going to be in trouble...

    22. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Not so rare any more. Pretty much all the tunnels & bridges in NYC are "no photo" zones. Take a look at this entertaining gallery for examples.

      All part of the War on Photographers.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    23. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by Rastl · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The husband likes taking pictures of industrial structures as reference for his model railroad. His job was taking him all over the country at this point.

      He was on a road when he saw an interesting building he decided to photograph. So he did. Very soon after that a rent-a-cop came puffing up the hill and told him he couldn't do that.

      Next he was demanding that my husband give him the camera. Uh, no. Then he demanded that all the photos (including all the other ones that had nothing to do with this situation) be deleted. Uh, no. Eventually my husband got bored with the whole thing and just walked away. There was nothing the guy could really do as this was all taking place on a public highway and a building in plain view.

      Here in the US, he could get away with it. I don't know about other places. But just because 'someone' says you can't do it doesn't mean they're right. And sadly most people will cave when someone perceived to be an authority figure demands something.

    24. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by joocemann · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, no, you can legally photograph nearly everything you can see from public land in the US. There are a few places where they're known to lack a sense of humor about it, but almost everything is fair game. (That said, there are a few rare restrictions on such things.)

      Now understanding that this is the law in your country, and it is (apparently) clearly posted, well... yeah, they broke the law and got caught. As usual, /. distorts the story.

      Actually, no, you cannot take pictures of many US Military installations. I was one of the guys who would apprehend you and take your camera from you. Please don't speak for America if you don't know enough to tell the truth.

    25. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by joocemann · · Score: 1

      It is still illegal to take pictures of the facilities from public land. FYI.

    26. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by macshit · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A few years ago I took a tourist photo of the Pentagon in D.C. from just outside the metro stop, which is pretty far away from the building. A security officer came and asked me to delete the photo from my camera.

      Keep in mind that "a security offer asked" and "it is the law" are very, very, different things.

      Sometimes they're simply full of shit and trying to intimidate you into doing something they have no legal power to enforce.

      --
      We live, as we dream -- alone....
    27. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by instarx · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not so rare any more. Pretty much all the tunnels & bridges in NYC are "no photo" zones.

      Not true. These no-photo rules were imposed in the security-frenzy that was NYC immediately after 9/11. When things calmed down objections were raised by citizens and the rules were rescinded. In 2007, revised rules about commercial street photography in NYC specifically allowed photogrphy by ordinary citizens and visitors.

      That does not mean that a lot of people, including cops, don't know or care that the rules were changed back to allow photography. Those signs you linked to are probably still there because their removal is at the bottom of the city's To-Do list. If they are true to form the city might get around to taking them down around 2020.

      In any event they were the dumbest rules ever devised. If I were a terrorist i could take 10,000 secret pictures of subways, bridges and train stations and no one would ever know. What was the the point of hassling John or Mary from Debuque?

    28. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by u38cg · · Score: 1

      That's the law, true. Whether it would stand up to a constitutional challenge is another matter, and the way things are these days, it's not going to be too long before someone pushes it all the way. I wouldn't be too confident.

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    29. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by hughk · · Score: 1

      Could you provide a photo of these signs to back up your claim?

      ...but I would have to kill you!

      Actually, Groom Lake AFB (AKA Area 41) has this sign prominently displayed on the outside of a very large perimeter.

      --
      See my journal, I write things there
    30. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by linuxrocks123 · · Score: 1

      cite please

      --
      vi ~/.emacs # I'm probably going to Hell for this.
    31. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go to ANY military airfield in the USA; there are signs specifying two things

      Could you provide a photo of these signs to back up your claim?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wfm_x51_area51_warningsign.jpg

      maybe?

    32. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by houghi · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Many years ago I took a picture inside a mall and a rent-a-cop came up to me and explained that I was not allowed to take photos. When I told him I already had taken all the photos I wanted he said basicaly "Good for you." Smiled and went on his way.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    33. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by houghi · · Score: 1

      Please don't speak for America if you don't know enough to tell the truth.

      If that would happen, no bill would ever be signed and I am not even saying that is a bad thing.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    34. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, no, you can legally photograph nearly everything you can see from public land in the US. There are a few places where they're known to lack a sense of humor about it, but almost everything is fair game. (That said, there are a few rare restrictions on such things.)

      Actually, no you can't. You can be charged with a federal crime for photographing certain US defense installations or equipment; no matter where you take the pictures of for what reason. In that respect US law is no different than Indian.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    35. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ; there are signs specifying two things: It is a US Govermnent property site... Photogrophy is prohibited

      Sure, if you go on the base property. But I think by "public" land the GP meant more along the lines of the public road that goes by the base. There may not be a gate preventing access to the base property, but it's no longer public land.

      Doesn't matter if you are not on base property; you can still be prosecuted for photographing restricted installations.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    36. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      A few years ago I took a tourist photo of the Pentagon in D.C. from just outside the metro stop, which is pretty far away from the building. A security officer came and asked me to delete the photo from my camera. I explained that it wasn't a digital camera, but rather a disposable film camera. He said that officially he should make me throw it away, but instead allowed me to go on condition that I didn't take any more photos.

      You're right that the law allows people to take tourist photos. But where "security" is concerned, it apparently doesn't matter what the law says.

      -Gonz

      Actually, depending on where you took the photo you may have been in a no photo zone (which includes the Metro exit area - there are signs there pointing that out).

      OTOH, the Pentagon security folks want to balance security with being reasonable. They have no desire to rigidly enforce photo restrictions and ruin tourist visits to DC; more then likely he or she decided you were not a security threat and made a reasonable decision on the spot.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    37. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by jgs · · Score: 1

      Recall the the Air Force also places several types of sensors so they know when folks are trying to take a photo from afar

      Can you provide evidence of this? Or evidence that any such sensor technology exists at all?

    38. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by mdmkolbe · · Score: 1

      Good find, but does that sign mean photography prohibited of that area or just while in that area.

    39. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by radish · · Score: 1

      Actually, not quite. The City has nothing to do with it, as the bridges & tunnels in question are owned by the Port Authority. From their website:

      The Port Authority operates the George Washington, Goethals and Bayonne bridges; the Outerbridge Crossing; and the Lincoln and Holland tunnels. Videotaping and photographing at toll plazas at any of these facilities is prohibited, and the Port Authority reserves the right to restrict videotaping and photography to designated areas at all of its bridges and tunnels.

      Sure it only mentions toll plazas, but for a tunnel that's basically all of it except inside the tunnel itself, where you'd get run over if you tried to take a photo!

      The MTA (who I believe own most of the other bridges) have a rule that basically says "you have to do what the signs say" - and guess what the signs say? No photos.

      You might be interested in this page.

      --

      ---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"

    40. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      That said, I would imagine that most sites that have said regulations are not particularly close to public land and/or have some sort of obstruction to keep people from taking photographs.

      (Emphasis mine.) One of the things the individuals in this story are being charged with is taking pictures of the boundary wall. From Stanislav_J's post:

      "Their digital camera too had clippings of some prohibited spots - a photo of Jamnagar airport's main gate, boundary walls and also buildings."

      Maybe they need to erect a boundary wall to prevent people from taking pictures of the boundary wall....

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    41. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by hughk · · Score: 1

      I seem to remember that there is a very large unfenced zone around the base which is considered enhanced-security, i.e., part of the base and it is patrolled as there are stories of people being either chased off or threatened.

      Forgetting the Aliens thing, Groom Lake aka Dreamland is a flight test facility with sexy new aircraft, so I guess that's why they want to restrict people in the area, not just the base itself. There is a piece of public land with an accessible track, apparently where you can see a view of the base but you are so far away, you can't see much even with very long lenses.

      --
      See my journal, I write things there
    42. Re:Official Secrets Act != Terrorism Charge by identity0 · · Score: 1

      Meanwhile, in Japan, they publish
      Airport watching guides for obsessed plane nerds, covering most of the country's airports. I've seen ones for the US airbases there, though I can't find on Amazon atm.

      Quite a different attitude than India or Greece, where people have been arrested for taking pics of military bases.

  16. Come on, this is 2008 ! by Milvuss · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Governments have to understand cartography can no longer be restricted to military or other officials.

    GPS, camera, satellites are ubiquitous, and we can see the result with things like Google Earth or wiki-like mapping. You can no longer make imprecise or secret maps. You can no longer forbid photos of any place you can see from a public location. You can no longer base your security on obscurity.

    After all, the bad guys probably already have all this information. You have to assume they have it, or your doomed to failure. Just make officially all those things public, and find new ways to implement security for your important places, for people, for the country...

    1. Re:Come on, this is 2008 ! by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      In many countries a government agency has the exclusive right to produce maps. Attempting to compete with the government results in being shut down.

      Is it not the right of a country to determine who shall make maps?

    2. Re:Come on, this is 2008 ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know what - that's giving terrorists yet another way to fuck with us (I'm European and mean the entire western world). All our economies rely way too much on precise GPS already and thus all terrorists have to do to make one attack much more effective is to bring along a shitload of GPS devices. When officials find that out in the aftermath, governments are likely to panic and reduce precision on civilian GPS so that it becomes useless (it's enough that the US government panics because they control it and civilian GPS units come with disclaimers regarding precision). Now, many drivers (especially professionals) still find their way most of the time without a GPS but inevitably there would be a slight slowdown in all deliveries. However, plenty of old seafaring navigation services (radio beacons) have already been completely dismantled over here at least since virtually all vessels have GPS (+ backup GPS and backup backup GPS). Shipping traffic would be truly fucked in some parts of the world. Air travel would suffer enormously - prices would go up since there would be fewer flights. The changes that have been made to ATC to allow more aircraft in the skies, have only been possible thanks to the precision of GPS. The skies couldn't be managed safely as crowded as they are, if the precision of civilian GPS was reduced substantially.

    3. Re:Come on, this is 2008 ! by dwye · · Score: 1

      > Is it not the right of a country to determine who shall make maps?

      No, although it may be in their power. But this was India, which claims to be a modern democracy, not China, let alone North Korea.

    4. Re:Come on, this is 2008 ! by westlake · · Score: 1
      You can no longer base your security on obscurity.

      The geek trusts far too much in his own memes.

      The arrests in India ought at least to remind the geek that the Google logo on his tee shirt does not make it an armored vest.

      "GPS, camera, satellites are ubiquitous." The gadget may be ubiquitous. The satellite is not. Google is not.

      Google can be shut down or locked wherever and whenever it becomes too arrogant, adventurous or inconvenient. Laws change. Courts change. People change. "The death of privacy" is not a goal that everyone shares.

      In or out of government.

      Just make officially all those things public, and find new ways to implement security for your important places, for people, for the country...

      Be damn careful what you ask for. You just might get it.

  17. Re:Crazy Indians? by Wandering+Wombat · · Score: 2

    My Dad has been saying that for decades. Where's it from?

    --
    I like to place meaningful quotes in my sig, so people will know that I know what meaningful quotes are.
  18. You know... by sysusr · · Score: 1

    These guys could *actually* have been terrorists. Did Nokia Navigator commission them to photograph and document Indian military installations?

    It's good to see that India isn't taking any chances. Imagine the outcry if a terrorist attack occurred, and it was later revealed India knew the attackers were documenting military installations and major roads but did nothing about it.

    At this point in time, India is NOT the place to be testing the limits of political correctness.

    --
    \x72\x6D\x20\x2D\x72\x66
    1. Re:You know... by dwye · · Score: 1

      These guys could *actually* have been terrorists. Did Nokia Navigator commission them to photograph and document Indian military installations?

      Even if they were commissioned, if mapping that close to a base was prohibited and posted, then they broke the Act, just as the US DoD worker who was convicted of espionage for Jane's Publications (Jane's Fighting Ships, Jane's Armies Of The World, etc). If the area WASN'T posted, then the government screwed up, especially as it was apparently a public road. Unless GPs-mapping is, ipso facto, terrorism in India, in which case they should ban importing them, just as California bans impoting fresh fruit.

  19. I am beginning to see a pattern. by Anachragnome · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Step 1: Create and heavily market new technology to public as a profitable venture

    Step 2: Make use of technology ILLEGAL

    Step 3: Fill privately owned/operated prisons with resulting miscreants OR...

    Optional Step 4: Use resulting abuse(illegality) as validation to extort money from general populace

    This model fits with the whole Media/DRM crap and now seems to be used for purposes other then making money.

  20. Trying to keep an open mind... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I'm trying to keep an open mind about the government charging these guys and not just say the government is evil. But time and time again, governments around the world have shown they aren't interested in whats right, they are interested in controlling the population.

    Republics, Democracies, Communist, the type of government doesn't matter. The only thing that seems to matter is that those at the top, stay at the top and in control of those around them.

    With all of the differing views around the planet, all of the different ways of thinking and ways of living from one culture to the next, one thing isn't different. Those at the top are doing everything possible to control those around them.

    Makes the conspiracy theorist alarm in my head go off.

  21. Re:Crazy Indians? by jackalope · · Score: 5, Funny

    Actually I know of two things more dangerous:

    1) A programmer with a screwdriver
    2) A salesman with an install disc

  22. Biond...James Biond? by elrous0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why would cartographers be taking pictures of airforce bases, in addition to their more expected mapping out of GPS routes? Does sound just a tad suspicious. Can't blame India for wanting to ask them a few questions--the first question being "Are you a Pakistani spy or a terrorist?"

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:Biond...James Biond? by Drencrom · · Score: 1

      Why shouldn't they? Unless there is an explicit law prohibiting taking pictures of airforce bases they didn't do nothing wrong.

    2. Re:Biond...James Biond? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Last I checked, there are interesting planes located at air force bases, and all sorts of other cool gear.

      What, it's illegal to take pictures of planes and airports now, military or otherwise? If they don't want pictures being taken then widen the fenced in/prohibited area (e.g., Area 51) or place the airport in a valley blocked by inaccessible mountains (ditto). Otherwise there should be nothing illegal about taking pictures of facilities from public locations.

      If there is something so super-secret about that location that it must not be photographed then don't make it publicly viewable.

      And what's unusual about recording the GPS position from which the photo was taken? You can find the same sort of information tagged to photos in Google Earth. Some cameras even record the GPS position when you shoot the photo.

    3. Re:Biond...James Biond? by Ma8thew · · Score: 1

      Well there is and they did.

    4. Re:Biond...James Biond? by elrous0 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Not to engage in hyperbole here, but on September 11, 2001 there wasn't a specific law against a bunch of strange Arabs getting flight training and bringing boxcutters onto commercial airplanes. That doesn't mean someone shouldn't have stopped them and asked them what the hell they were doing.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    5. Re:Biond...James Biond? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would cartographers be taking pictures of airforce bases,

      Cause taking cool pictures and videos of military aircraft (particularly jet fighters) taking off and landing is fun.

    6. Re:Biond...James Biond? by Alsee · · Score: 1

      We don't necessarily have 100% of the information here, but this whole thing seriously sounds to me like a typical case of governmental recto-cranial inversion.

      Why would cartographers be taking pictures of airforce bases...
      Does sound just a tad suspicious.

      And if they had "taken pictures of young girls playing in school yards" it would also sound suspicious.

      If people are making GPS maps and taking generic video/photos as part of it, then yes, that video and those photos will include the little girls in the school yards of that area, or video and pictures of the airport and military base in the area. Saying they were "taking pictures of little girls" or "military bases" is a disgustingly convenient "sounds bad" way to imply innocent people are pedophiles or terrorists.

      I live not far from the World Trade Center towers. I got to watch armed combat-active military aircraft orbiting over my house after 9/11. Yes, I know there are terrorists, and yes I want them caught. However I do not support idiocy in pursuit of that goal. The idea that GPS devices and GPS mapping are criminal, the idea that they are even particularly suspicious, is idiocy. Pulling over, searching, and arresting people merely because they have a "weird antenna" on the roof of their car is idiocy.

      They called the company these guys said work for, and the company said yes, these are our employees and yes we did send them to collect GPS and mapping data. Now I see only two possibilities here. Either (1) these are innocent innocent people, or (2) the company itself is a terrorist setup and they are exceptionally stupid (exceptionally stupid even for terrorists) to admit that that two guys that got caught were working for them.

      While option (2) is certainly possible, it just doesn't seem to me to be particularly likely. It doesn't seem to be to be anywhere near as likely as typical government idiocy. If option (2) isn't true, then what we have here are ordinary people who were victimized for having a "weird antenna" on their car. We would have have the idiotic idea that GPS units indicate criminality - or even worse idiocy if the GPS units actually are criminal. And we would have the absolutely disgusting situation of police propping up this travesty making these guys sound like pedophiles because their routine video/pictures happened to include the schoolyards and the little girls that they passed. Ooops, my bad... I mean making these guys sound like terrorists because their routine video/pictures happened to include the airport and military base that they passed.

      <sarcasm>
      Because geee, what what telecom or other company wold want to map out some strategic area like around the major airport serving a city? Obviously such companies would be most interested in GPS data for non-strategic areas like farmland and uninhabited forests. Cellphone tower placement and travel route data is most critically important for farmland and uninhabited forests.
      </sarcasm>

      Unless there is more justification than has been released in the story - unless these guy were already being specifically tracked for known terrorist ties or something - then it would require a pure dumb luck lightening strike hit for this to be anything other than innocent people being victimized by idiocy and anti-terrorism paranoia.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    7. Re:Biond...James Biond? by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 1

      on September 11, 2001 there wasn't a specific law against a bunch of strange Arabs getting flight training and bringing boxcutters onto commercial airplanes. That doesn't mean someone shouldn't have stopped them and asked them what the hell they were doing.

      In a free society, that is precisely what it means.
      Nobody said freedom was free.

    8. Re:Biond...James Biond? by legirons · · Score: 1

      Why would cartographers be taking pictures of airforce bases

      For the same reason cartographers take pictures of everything else of interest in the region they're surveying -- it describes the area being mapped

      The bigger question is, why would you be prepared to consider someone a terrorist for taking photos? do you work for the UK police?

    9. Re:Biond...James Biond? by XchristX · · Score: 1

      In a free society, that is precisely what it means.

      No it does not. Absolute freedom is a pipe dream. A modern society has to have safety measures, particularly in vulnerable regions like aircraft. If there is reasonable cause to suspect some people of carrying out terrorism then they should be detained.

      --
      l'Homme n'est Rien l'Oeuvre Tout: Gustave Flaubert to George Sand
    10. Re:Biond...James Biond? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because the airport is also used by commercial purposes. They were contracted by Nokia to map areas of use to tourists.

      Taking photo's is essential for good data quality control.

      It's also essential to capture signs, one way, turn restrictions, number of lanes, etc.

      These were professionals, _with permission to collect data_ who were arrested under terrorist hysteria, but cannot be let go, as it would look bad.

      Nokia should do something.

    11. Re:Biond...James Biond? by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 1

      "Arabs getting flight training and bringing boxcutters onto commercial airplanes" != "Reasonable cause to suspect terrorism"

      If it did, then there would be about a million other equally "reasonable causes to suspect terrorism" and all the overhead of dealing with them would pretty much assure that no plane would ever make it to the runway.

    12. Re:Biond...James Biond? by richlv · · Score: 1

      i would take pictures of airforce bases. as would a lot of other people -
      1. it's cool;
      2. in other countries people explicitly photograph airplanes - ok, not quite my poison, but i know persons who drive all over europe to shoot (using a camera, yaknow) some rare plane;
      3. taking several photos of an inaccessible location allows to triangulate and map it nicely - yeah, i'm doing some minor work for openstreetmap.

      --
      Rich
  23. You're forgetting.. by BlackCobra43 · · Score: 4, Funny

    This is India. They couldn't possibly arrest a flying holy cow.

    --
    I never spellcheck and I freely admit it. Save your karma for more worthwhile "lol erorrs" replies
    1. Re:You're forgetting.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, but you could offer it for outsourcing to other countries in need of cheaper flying holy cows...

    2. Re:You're forgetting.. by ngambarish · · Score: 1

      Nah actually google uses flying fking jesus to do so. Holy cows are not that advanced.

  24. What is terrorism, really? by aaandre · · Score: 0, Troll

    How is it defined by our governments?

    The dictionary defines it as

    "the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion"

    It seems that the current *real* definition is "doing anything that a government or a private security employee sees as suspicious."

    I am concerned by the lack of clarity and the over-reaching powers given to all kinds of enforcement agencies (I wouldn't call all of these "law-" enforcement).

    Are we (the U.S.) becoming a society with anonymous reporting of "suspicious" activity and warrantless arrests? Are we scared enough to allow our guard dogs to tear apart anyone they or their masters don't like, just because?

    Who is really safe in such an environment?

    Everyone has their rational and semi-rational anxiety, fears and suspicions. Giving power to these is destroying our society and pissing me off.

    Obviously we are not ready to fight for our freedoms and therefore don't deserve to be free. Meanwhile it's becoming more difficult and dangerous to do so without having one's own life destroyed (activists ending up on terrorist lists etc.)

  25. Google Street View? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seeing this article made me think of something I've been wondering for a while re: Google street view.

    We've all seen the Google street view cars, or at least pictures of them: cars with 5-foot tripods and cameras on the roofs. We also know that Google has street-view imagery of LOTS of streets, including the passenger loading zones in front of airport terminal entrances.

    We already know what overzealous/uneducated/paranoid airport security guards and police officers do when they see someone taking pictures in public, especially of an airport. Can you imagine what they must think of a Googlemobile? I can see a Googlemobile being pulled over and seriously harassed for "taking pictures of an airport" or some other made-up offense.

  26. Re:Crazy Indians? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    (I'd like to mention parenthetically that my buddy's MOS was 88M(motor-t, essentialy truck driver) and his convoy was next in line from Lynch's when her's was attacked. Fortunately, his convoy did not make a wrong turn and their trip was incident-free)

  27. Taking pictures is bad... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For any publically viewable place it would be neglegent to assume every square inch of it has not already been photographed and distributed to everyone in the world.

    If your AT strategy depend on this level of secrecy the citiziens of your country should rightfully be outraged and ask for resignations of the idiots who have so utterly failed at their jobs.

    Deal with it, live with it, plan accordingly. All the governments of the world already assume their militiary activities are under constant survalliance from space... Since they ususally are :)

  28. The algebra of government by presidenteloco · · Score: 1, Troll

    The more just, accepted, legitimate, and mature is a nation's government, the less paranoid and totalitarian it becomes.

    --

    Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
  29. Re:Crazy Indians? by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 2, Funny

    Therefore we can deduce that a salesman with a screwdriver would be truly terrifying.

  30. were they filthy muslims? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    if they were muslims they were terrorists. all muslims are part of a barbaric tradition that can be classified as nothing less than terrorism. reject the lie muslims!

    FUCK ALLAH, FUCK MOHAMMAD, FUCK ISLAM.

    1. Re:were they filthy muslims? by justinlee37 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Not to mention the atrocities of the Catholic church. FUCK GOD, FUCK RELIGION, FUCK FAITH.

  31. This Airport? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Google Maps

  32. I don't know... by erroneus · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    I know that I and many other Americans have reservations about Indians...

    1. Re:I don't know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know that I and many other people have reservations about americans...

  33. But it's India by jesterzog · · Score: 1

    Realistically though, this is India. Parts of it might appear the same on the surface where you'd visit as a tourist, but it's still not the USA or any similar country. There are a massive number of people (nearly 4 times the USA's population crammed into 1/3 the land area), poverty in general and overall standards of living are much lower, there are major distinctions in wealth, and a strong social class system still exists in some places and results in discrimination and unfair due process that couldn't be tolereated in many developed countries... despite some attempts from parts of government to curb people's attitudes. India is constantly on edge about its neighbours (especially Pakistan), and on a recurring basis it's a subject of some quite major terrorist attacks inside its own territory.

    Through accident or otherwise, at least according to the linked article, it sounds as if these guys were mapping the area without having properly lodged an application and information with the local authorities beforehand to tell them what was going on and what to expect. To me it doesn't look as if they're being treated completely fairly, either, but compared with many others in India they're still pretty well off. Simply coming out and saying the government is being stupid because it apparently doesn't know about things like satellites doesn't seem very relevant to the situation. It'd make more sense to criticise some of the other problems that are much more serious, but they're also unlikely to change overnight. The authorities act as they are for a variety of reasons which are pretty complex and different from what might be usual, and it shouldn't be too unexpected that this sort of thing will happen from time to time.

    1. Re:But it's India by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what a frigging bunch of superiority-complex-induced and nauseatingly condescending tripe.

      in the first paragraph you spit out a bunch of sentences which refer to India's population, caste system, alleged discrimination and how you will not find all that in the ;developed' countries. Yeah right - racism, discrimination, failing marriages, teen pregnancies. There - opened your eyes to some of the realities in your 'developed' countries..

      The next paragraph shows your 'developed' ignorance (typical ) quite well.
      "the government is being stupid because it apparently doesn't know about things like satellites "

      there, there.. Indian Govt does not know about Satellites? What are you, a product of the US public school system?

    2. Re:But it's India by YttriumOxide · · Score: 1

      poverty in general and overall standards of living are much lower, there are major distinctions in wealth, and a strong social class system still exists in some places and results in discrimination and unfair due process that couldn't be tolereated in many developed countries

      Yep, that sounds like a fairly accurate description of the USA to me... (these people compared to these people as an example...

      (that's intended as humour, but with a dark serious side, so I'll accept "Funny" or "Insightful". "Flamebait" is probably the most likely mod I'll get though)

      --
      My book about LSD and Self-Discovery
      Also on facebook as: DroppingAcidDaleBewan
  34. Judge the Law by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So if they did photograph the air force base then they basically broke the law and have been charged. What's the problem?

    The law does almost nothing to prevent terrorism while throwing innocent people in jail for doing things a free person would normally do.

    That's the problem.

    We could have a really safe society by placing everybody under house arrest, unless they were being transported by the government to their work centers. Official delivery people could provide rations and perhaps emergency services personnel could use the roads as well. Then we just arrest anybody else traveling illegally and execute them for attempted terrorism.

    I'll take some risk with my freedom, thanks.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    1. Re:Judge the Law by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      There is more to this than terrorism. This is basic counter-espionage.

      Taking pictures of military and other government installations is a common first step to both detecting and planning an attack. Troop build-ups; armor, ship, and aircraft location and movement; the locations of guards, cameras, and other surveilence equipment; and other information can all be captured, transmitted, and analyzed.

      As an example, the attack on Pearl Harbor was planned, in part, using pictures taken by Japanese tourists and immigrants.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    2. Re:Judge the Law by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      Taking pictures of military and other government installations is a common first step to both detecting and planning an attack. Troop build-ups; armor, ship, and aircraft location and movement; the locations of guards, cameras, and other surveilence equipment; and other information can all be captured, transmitted, and analyzed.

      No doubt. But this law can't stop that. The best it can do is put a little dent into it, so if your security is based on laws like this you're already screwed.

      That would be enough to scrap it even if innocent folks weren't being jailed in its name.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    3. Re:Judge the Law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True.

      However, one exercises the freedom to judge the law in a court; either that or during a election by voting the government out.

      Breaking the law just because you personally don't agree with it leads to jail.

      Means to the end are important in this case.

    4. Re:Judge the Law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > The law does almost nothing to prevent terrorism while throwing innocent people in jail for doing things a free person would normally do.

      How many laws do you know that can successfully prevent terrorism? Recently, I was in a small US Air Base, visiting a friend. When I pulled out my camera, my friend told me that was not allowed. It was highly unlikely that there was anything secretive there, but that seemed like a fair general rule about any armed base. Why is surprising if India does it?

      India isn't some Orwellian state or sliding into one. Indian government can't even collect taxes properly, much less control the public mind. Most of the bugbears I hear here (web censorship etc) are simply some silly bureaucrat thoughtless making stuff up about things he does not understand. They get corrected sooner or later with due process, although more slowly than in US.

    5. Re:Judge the Law by XchristX · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The law does almost nothing to prevent terrorism while throwing innocent people in jail for doing things a free person would normally do.

      I don't know about that, but it does send a message to a totalitarian and genocidal enemy (Pakistan) that they will have a tougher time in carrying out their goals.

      I'll take some risk with my freedom, thanks.

      I'd rather lose some freedoms than die in a nuclear fireball, or live in perpetual misery in the Dhimmitude of an Islamic theocracy. Pakistan means to destroy our country or, failing that, occupy it and subject non-Muslims to the dehumanizing oppression of Dhimmitude (fighting Islamic Jihad is mentioned in their constitution, as well as the motto of their Army).

      It's easy for you to pontificate, sitting in a country surrounded by well-wishing allies. Not so for us, being the only democracy surrounded by Islamic theocracies and totalitarian dictatorships who mean to wipe us out (and have already tried to do so once: http://www.genocidebangladesh.org/).

      --
      l'Homme n'est Rien l'Oeuvre Tout: Gustave Flaubert to George Sand
    6. Re:Judge the Law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd rather lose some freedoms than die in a nuclear fireball, or live in perpetual misery in the Dhimmitude of an Islamic theocracy.

      It's easy for you to pontificate, sitting in a country surrounded by well-wishing allies.

      It was said best by Benjamin Franklin "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." And as he wrote this line in early 1775, just prior to the revolutionary war, I doubt he was sitting safely surrounded by well-wishing allies.

    7. Re:Judge the Law by XchristX · · Score: 1

      I doubt he was sitting safely surrounded by well-wishing allies.

      He was not surrounded by enemies who wanted to wipe out his people off the face of the earth completely, no.

      And 18th century Britishers did not have access to nuclear weapons. Pakistani Islamists do
      .

      --
      l'Homme n'est Rien l'Oeuvre Tout: Gustave Flaubert to George Sand
    8. Re:Judge the Law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety and will lose both."

    9. Re:Judge the Law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not the only one, I dare say the Israelis understand your situation perfectly.

    10. Re:Judge the Law by houghi · · Score: 1

      I'd rather lose some freedoms than die in a nuclear fireball, or live in perpetual misery in the Dhimmitude of an Islamic theocracy.

      The first I understand although I disagree. There are many people who have fought for their freedom and rather died then not to be free.
      The second are limitations on your freedom. So basically you do not like the restrictions that will be forced upon you, so you give up your freedom voluntarily.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    11. Re:Judge the Law by XchristX · · Score: 1

      There are many people who have fought for their freedom and rather died then not to be free.

      All of them were typically fighting tyranny or oppression (sometimes only perceived tyranny or oppression). They were not fighting complete, civilizational annihilation. Many of those freedom fighters would change their stance once they perceived an existential threat from their enemy. Marshall Tito, for instance.

      There is a difference in degree here. Our very existence is in danger.

      So basically you do not like the restrictions that will be forced upon you, so you give up your freedom voluntarily.

      I'm willing to sacrifice SOME (not all) freedoms in order to protect and preserve my life, the lives of my family and the very core of our civilization which is in existential danger, yes.

      --
      l'Homme n'est Rien l'Oeuvre Tout: Gustave Flaubert to George Sand
    12. Re:Judge the Law by XchristX · · Score: 1

      Yes, I forgot about them. However, keep in mind that the South Asian situation would be worse if the Islamists were allowed to escalate further. The entire Levant (Israel-West Bank-Lebanon-Syria-Jordan) is smaller than some of India's states.

      --
      l'Homme n'est Rien l'Oeuvre Tout: Gustave Flaubert to George Sand
    13. Re:Judge the Law by Draek · · Score: 1

      I don't know about that, but it does send a message to a totalitarian and genocidal enemy (Pakistan) that they will have a tougher time in carrying out their goals.

      You honestly believe putting up a law against photographing air bases will be an obstacle to a 'totalitarian and genocidal' country meaning to 'wipe [you] out' from carrying out their goals? that strikes me as putting a sheet of paper between you and a loaded gun, sorry.

      I'd rather lose some freedoms than die in a nuclear fireball, or live in perpetual misery in the Dhimmitude of an Islamic theocracy.

      Careful with that, plenty of people said that in the US in 2001 and you see where that got them. Honestly, if history has taught us anything, is that the government people should be most afraid of is always their own.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    14. Re:Judge the Law by XchristX · · Score: 1

      You honestly believe putting up a law against photographing air bases will be an obstacle to a 'totalitarian and genocidal' country meaning to 'wipe [you] out' from carrying out their goals? that strikes me as putting a sheet of paper between you and a loaded gun, sorry.

      It's only a symbolic gesture, but semiotics are very important to the enemy. The enemy believes that the kaffir harbi (infidels in the house of war) are weak and incognizant of their fate. This will inform then that this is not the case.

      Careful with that, plenty of people said that in the US in 2001 and you see where that got them.

      Where, exactly? Is anybody being sent to reeducation camps? Are there mutaween religious police breaking down your door because you utterred the wrong prayer according to some Hisbah bill?

      All I see is some wine-soaked mediocrats whining about how their flights got delayed because the TSA frisked them.

      I understand that you're making the "slippery slope" argument, but I do not believe it has reached that point yet, nor do I believe that this will happen in the forseeable future. There are enough checks and balances in society to prevent that.

      --
      l'Homme n'est Rien l'Oeuvre Tout: Gustave Flaubert to George Sand
    15. Re:Judge the Law by richlv · · Score: 1

      there was recently a slashdot article about china censorship. as i commented there, i don't quite know my own actions if i was forced to choose between more peace or more freedom.
      one thing i am quite sure about - freedoms can never be regained. giving up some freedom will make sure it will have to be fought back, possibly by losing more than initial giveup gained.
      but that's not my call, not in the topic discussed here. people living there have to evaluate the means necessary to reclaim such freedoms.

      --
      Rich
    16. Re:Judge the Law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know about that, but it does send a message to a totalitarian and genocidal enemy (Pakistan) that they will have a tougher time in carrying out their goals.

      I'm sorry, but you don't fight totalitarism by turning into totalitarism.

      The message it sends they won't have to bother carrying out their goals since you're doing a fine job at carrying out their goals yourself.

    17. Re:Judge the Law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A few restrictions != totalitarianism.

      Islamic Empire == very much totalitarian

  35. It's a little different in the US by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    You can take pictures of pretty much anything in public view, including things like military bases. For that matter, pictures are usually freely available online. Where the US's bases are and such are not secret. Even the locations where secret things happen, such as testing facilities you can photograph from public land. What they do is simply create a large exclusionary zone. So while the facility might be, say, a square mile, there'll be 50 square miles around it that are owned by the government and off limits. If you wander on, you'll be escorted off. However for regular bases located in cities you can see plenty of them. You can usually take a tour, if you ask.

    I have a friend who is originally from India and one of the things that most blew his mind about America was the openness of the military. He went to an airshow and found out that you could walk up and touch many of the planes. That was rather unbelievable to him, that you'd be allowed such close access to this sort of thing. It's no big deal though, happens all over the US all the time.

    There ARE plenty of off limits things but they are physically off limits. For example while you could certainly go and have a look at a military base, you could just drive on to it and go in any room you wished. But you can go take pictures if you like. Doesn't mean some idiot MP who doesn't know any better might not hassle you about it, but if it came down to you getting arrested, they'd be the ones that would get in trouble.

  36. Volatile India-Pakistan by Arthur+Grumbine · · Score: 3, Funny

    Standoff enters day 11,834. It's a powder-keg. For sure. They could totally nuke each other any second.

    --
    Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure everything I just said is completely wrong.
    1. Re:Volatile India-Pakistan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps then IT work in the USA will pay homeowner wages.

  37. Re:Crazy Indians? by tsstahl · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Old military lore.

    Fresh officers (boots, butterbars, third-butter-cutter, all sorts of names for them) out of officer school are all hot to show their Stuff. Typically, within weeks of commissioning they were given a platoon of men to lead. As the head cheese, it is their responsibility to get the platoon where it needs to go.

    These guys are around 22 years old. In this platoon, you are sure to have one old salt, and a couple on their way. The unwritten rule is to make sure the butterbar has adult supervision in the form of a senior non-com. This senior non-com goes out of his way _not_ to make decisions. So, you will hear plenty of stories about how a platoon gets hopelessly lost while the non-coms who could have 'prevented' the tragedy do nothing. The officers learn from their mistakes with the benefit of senior non-coms as training wheels.

    In modern times, the officers go through some OJT as an exec. or something in addition to the more extensive field training currently in the system.

  38. Re:Crazy Indians? by arthurpaliden · · Score: 1

    Wrong.

    The most dangerous thing in the world is a second lieutenant.

  39. 1-way encryption by mwilliamson · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is the perfect opportunity to use some sort of crypo that encrypts the data stored (video, whatever) in a block by block fashion as it is recorded, but encrypts with traditional PKI so that there is no open session to attack. Also, the secret key shouldn't be stored on the device but instead reside with the news agency, trusted friend in another country, etc. In a nutshell, devices from video cameras to general-purpose gps-enabled geek toys shouldn't be made into easy tools for a repressive government to compile evidence against the user of the tool. I also realize though that these repressive regimes could just outlaw the crypto and make that penalty very harsh/cruel/insane, but then there's also the whole field of stenography, and this cat and mouse game can still continue ad nauseum. I really would love to build something like this out of a DV camera and some sort of small embeddible computer that could handle the I/O and crypto at DV rates.

    1. Re:1-way encryption by kbrasee · · Score: 1

      Or you could just make a camera that can SELF-DESTRUCT IN A GIGANTIC AND AWESOME FIREBALL AT THE PUSH OF A BUTTON.

      Great, now look what I did. I used so many capitalized words that the filter is blocking my post. This post isn't really worth all the effort I'm going to just to get past the filter.

      OH YEAH.

    2. Re:1-way encryption by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's of course before crypto or not handing keys over is made illegal (remember the clipper chip anyone?).

    3. Re:1-way encryption by mwilliamson · · Score: 1

      It could be quite useful if there could be a known delay before the gigantic and awesome fireball mode activates. I'd also suspect there'd probably be some sort warranty exception for the use of that mode.

    4. Re:1-way encryption by mwilliamson · · Score: 1

      value of the recording vs penalty...

      The value of the suspected recorded content may give the owner of that content far more political leverage than some stupid law gives his oppressor. This, of course, only applies if there exists some sort of [even potential] automated dissemination of the aforementioned data. If the oppressor knows the user has the only copy of potentially incriminating evidence, it would be a very different and dangerous circumstance for the user.

    5. Re:1-way encryption by richlv · · Score: 1

      I also realize though that these repressive regimes could just outlaw the crypto and make that penalty very harsh/cruel/insane, but then there's also the whole field of stenography, and this cat and mouse game can still continue ad nauseum.

      steganography, i guess ;)
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography

      --
      Rich
  40. Re:Crazy Indians? by jfeldredge · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The truly-scary thing is an administrator with a screwdriver. A former boss of mine tried to do his own computer repair, and managed to connect the case of his machine to 110V AC. Fortunately, the only casualties were the PC, one input port on the server, and a scorch mark on the wallpaper above the cable jack. Had this been more recent, with networks rather than RS-232C connections, the damage would have been considerably more expensive.

  41. Re:Crazy Indians? by Kindaian · · Score: 1

    Wrong... the most dangerous thing in the world: An elected politician... ;)

  42. humans are retards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's not said enough. we're all a bunch of retarded mutant apes.

    stop doing anything!!!!

  43. GPS Connection Likely Peripheral To Arrests by reallocate · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Photographing military installations is a crime in many countries, as is publishing maps of areas that include those installations.

    Not to say that is right, but their employment by a GPS company was probably peripheral to the arrests.

    --
    -- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
  44. Re:Crazy Indians? by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

    Yup, that happens when you wire an AT power switch wrong.

    I suspect his power supply failed, and he was attempting to swap it without first documenting the switch pin-out orientation.

    --
    Life is not for the lazy.
  45. Indian Penal Code by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you think 1923 is old, check out the complete IPL (Indian Penal Code - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Penal_Code). There are still many laws from 1860s.

    Back on topic, as an Indian, I can tell you that it's nowhere clear what you can take pictures of and what you can not. In India, its very easy to break laws not knowing what is legal and what isn't, and you would not know until you are caught - either by a cheap street cop looking for some quick money or by completely incompetent higher ups who have no idea about technology or reality, or simply, common sense.

    1. Re:Indian Penal Code by hughk · · Score: 1

      I heard a rumour that trains and bridges are considered militarily significant and shouldn't be photographed. However the law isn't usually enforced. Is that true?

      --
      See my journal, I write things there
    2. Re:Indian Penal Code by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bridges, yes. Not sure about trains. And yes, the law is what the cop tells you to be. If you think otherwise, prepare to spend a 10 year long judiciary battle for a petty alleged crime.

      That reminds me - aren't bridges not supposed to be photographed in the US too?

    3. Re:Indian Penal Code by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oh really ? from 1860 huh ?
      are there any laws that still exist in the United States from the 1700s ?
      The answer is Yes. Hundreds of them still exist today and people are handed down sentences all the time based on those arcane laws.

    4. Re:Indian Penal Code by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Breaking the law without knowledge of it can happen in any country. Laws get written more than unwritten and the US is no less than anyone else. Google for 'obsolete laws'.

      With endemic corruption due to a huge population trying to grab whatever share they can of a limited pie, for Indian authorities it can be very useful to keep antiquated laws 'just in case' they are needed to 'deal with' someone.

      Another feature of the Indian legal system is it's ability to drag court cases over decades. Once you are ensnared in it one recourse is 'who needs to be paid off'.

    5. Re:Indian Penal Code by slmdmd · · Score: 1

      I agree, I grew up in India, it would take one whole new generation, that is another 50 years for an average indian administrative officer's mind set to evolve. Cops are most idiotic because that profession pays very very low salary, no housing(quaters will have a 20 year waitlist) and lots of risk. A city cop must take bribes just to afford rent. Lack of courts in india is a very big handycap, trials can simply go on forever. So normal citizen can't even think of going to court against corruption. It is so bad that I could not get my driver's license on my own, they just made me run around from one officer to another but when I paid an agent, no tests were taken and just went to the agent's shop two days later and collected it. No ethics, no right/wrong nothing, only money rules.

    6. Re:Indian Penal Code by slmdmd · · Score: 1

      Nokia must have forgotten to pay the cops.

    7. Re:Indian Penal Code by gujjuguy · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't say the signs are posted nowhere. If you visit for example Golden Bridge near Bharuch, it has a posted sign in english which says "photography not allowed". I have been to quite a few temples which displays the same message.

    8. Re:Indian Penal Code by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are many laws on US books from the 1860s as well, and many based on English laws created centuries before that. A legal system established on precedent takes time to build, and India wouldn't have done itself any favors by throwing away the British system it inherited and starting from scratch.

      With the terrorism problems India faces, I can understand concern over technology that can so clearly benefit terrorists. But it can also benefit many more Indians who just want to get from point A to point B.

  46. Re:Crazy Indians? by hairyfeet · · Score: 1, Funny
    3) A home user who has a family member than "knows how to fix them Windows problems and make it fast".

    Although I make a decent amount of cash from those id10ts so i shouldn't complain ;-)

    --
    ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  47. not to go out on a limb by sunking2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But maybe they actually are terrorists? Or are terrorists not allowed to hold a job that may be to their benefit? Maybe, just maybe there is a chance they got this right?

  48. History repeats itself ... again by AJNeufeld · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This seems awfully similar to the story of Richard Bliss's detention in Russia. He was using GPS to determine the locations to erect cellular base stations, and was charged with spying.

  49. Is this the spot? by Brandano · · Score: 1

    Was this the place they dared to photograph? http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=jamnagar+air+base&sll=22.182696,69.758506&sspn=0.010253,0.016565&ie=UTF8&ll=22.465133,70.002737&spn=0.019512,0.033131&t=h&z=15 It's nice how someone took the time to label the weapons storage bunkers. And those hangars would really blend into the background, wasn't it for the enormous concrete taxiways leading in and out of each one of them.

    1. Re:Is this the spot? by iammani · · Score: 1

      +1 Funny

      If I had real mod points, I would have immediately given it for this post.

  50. Re:Crazy Indians? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    The above post has been classified "Secret".

    - Troy Kent King

  51. Re:Crazy Indians? by reboot246 · · Score: 1

    Every important engagement always takes place at the junction of two or more map sheets.

  52. Re:Crazy Indians? by iron+spartan · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The Blue Force Tracker system is an OK navigation system. The daggers, military hand held GPS sytems, are total and complete shit. Your lucky if you can find your own ass with one of those things.

    When I first got into Iraq, we where told we didn't need strip maps because our convoy commander had a GPS and and "had driven the route dozens of times." We took several wrong turns in Baghdad and were lost for over an hour. We ran into a EOD cordon around an IED, and they pointed us in the right direction. On the up side, we missed 2 IED's along our planned route.

  53. Lucky they only got arrested... by joocemann · · Score: 0, Troll

    I am very pissed at these GPS mapping whores and taking pictures where they are not allowed to. I have had to report to google maps three times about locations that are private and were wrongfully (ignorantly) trespassed and photographed.

    These guys are lucky to get arrested. If they were to follow the apparently standard M.O. of trespassing and illegal photography on my property they'd be leaving with slashed tires and a broken nose.

    1. Re:Lucky they only got arrested... by joocemann · · Score: 1

      I'm a troll for speaking truth? Thanks slashdot, thank you for your biased mods.

  54. Re:Crazy Indians? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The most dangerous thing in this world? A newborn human.

  55. Re:The Official Secrets Act" by arthurpaliden · · Score: 1

    Once you sign. How long is it enforced for? I signed it over 30 years ago. Am I still bound by it?

  56. Re:Crazy Indians? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    We used to say that a 2lt could choose from two of the following:

    1. Live troops
    2. Live rounds
    3. Map & Compass.

    Only platoon sargeants can be trusted with all three!

  57. Re:Crazy Indians? by greenbird · · Score: 1

    Where's it from?

    Everyone who's ever been in the position of having to rely on a Butter Bar with a map and a compass. (speaking from experience)

    --
    Who is John Galt?
  58. FUD alert by tanveer1979 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Sensationalist headlines read nice, don't they.
    Actually they had photographs of military base on their laptop, areas which had prominently displayed "Photography prohibited"

    --
    My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
    FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
    1. Re:FUD alert by berend+botje · · Score: 1

      Can you make a drawing of such a base? Or just remember how it looks, really well?

      These laws a byzantine and should be revoked. If you run a highly secret facility perhaps you should hide it better. If you can see it from public roads then snapping a few pictures doesn't change a thing.

    2. Re:FUD alert by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      It is very hard for you to make plans on how to attack a military bas from what someone else remembers the place looks like. As for making drawings, I suspect that parking outside of the place and making drawings would result in the same sort of government response. ditto getting caught with drawings of a military installation.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    3. Re:FUD alert by berend+botje · · Score: 1

      Do you really think an attacker would do its deed without 'casing the joint' a few days earlier?

      "Look, on this months old picture there seems to be a ladder against the wall of the secret base, let's use that as a point of entry!"

      The notion is ludicrous.

  59. The Actual Reason by tarunbk · · Score: 1

    Well reported this happened in Gujarat, they were arrested because they didn't bribe enough or belonged to certain reiligious cult...

    1. Re:The Actual Reason by tarunbk · · Score: 1

      actually I meant India.... sorry, didn't want to focus on the state...

    2. Re:The Actual Reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's okay, original post is perfect just the way it is.

  60. Re:Crazy Indians? by eiapoce · · Score: 1

    That would be Native Finnish....

  61. Re:Welcome to one of the most backwards countries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bigotry is widespread, India's is just unusually specific. Hell, it took the US eleven generations to break our streak of electing forty-three rich christian white guys in a row. We're actually proud just to get our first rich christian black guy. How sad is that?

  62. Re:Welcome to one of the most backwards countries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And one common argument against him was that he was actually not Christian.

  63. Re:Crazy Indians? by RMH101 · · Score: 2, Funny

    I sell screwdrivers, you insensitive clod!

  64. Just like a nuclear plant in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Except there's no nuclear material.

    Which, AFAIR, is what makes the difference between a nuclear plant and a warehouse.

    Kind of important really.

    Analogy: sucks.

  65. What really happened by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    I am the director of the company and want to put the entire episode in the proper context.

    Biond Software Technologies is the leading GPS survey company in India and has a staff of more than 350 people.

    Few salient points about the entire episode.
    1.Prior to starting the Survey in Gujarat, Biond had already submitted a letter to the Gujarat State Police, stating that they will be carrying out a survey of Road attributes and Points of interest for Nokia subsidiary Navteq.

    2.All the work is being exclusively done for Nokia subsidiary Navteq.

    3.All the map data created by the survey is submitted to the Ministry of Defense for approval. After their approval for publication, the Maps are given to Nokia for their cellphone Navigation application. All correspondence with the ministry of defense regarding approval is submitted to Gujarat police. Also, approval from ministry of defense regarding previously published maps is submitted to Gujarat Police. In short, all the data is verified by Ministry of Defense before publication.

    4.We have worked on GIS-GPS projects of different police departments across India, like Mumbai Police, Bangalore Police and Rajasthan Police. All the relevant information has also been submitted to Gujarat Police.

    5.Gujarat police has not taken objection to any of the survey parts.

    6.Survey team had carried with them a digital camera in their personal capacity and was used to capture photographs of themselves, places visited etc., like any other tourist would. Please note that this was not a part of their work and was done as a hobby / tourist activity. Amongst all the photos and video clips taken, there were a few that the Gujarat police found objectionable in light of the atmosphere prevailing after the Mumbai Terrorist Attacks.

    Please note that only objectional video was they had tried to capture was the video of plane takeoff at Jamnagar airport from the outside of the boundary wall. They had only attempted it and no plane seems to appear in the video clip. Other than this they didnot find anything objectional.

    7.In the aftermath of the Mumbai episode, the people and Police are extremely vigilant and as a part of the vigilance, this survey team was detained and their activities investigated. The bonadfides have been investigated and found clear.

    I hope this puts the unfortunate incidents in a proper context.

  66. The airbase is commercial, nokia needs it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The airport's run way is shared with the Indian armed forces.

    The airport is actually used for a few commercial flights.

    Nokia wants this information in it's databases. Photos and videos are routinely taken when collecting geo data for mapping, for data quality control, validation, capturing signs, restrictions etc.

    One of the allegations is that they "tried to take a photo" of two fighter planes. This to me means that they didn't actually take a photo of said planes.

    The people collecting this data were arrested.

    The company they were working for actually informed to the local authorities that they were collecting the data.

  67. So it's just like America then. by wiredog · · Score: 1

    No wonder so many of you are moving here. Feels just like home...

    1. Re:So it's just like America then. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know what you are saying, but the scale of this 'stupidity' is entirely on a different level when it comes to India compared to USA. People's mentality is around 500 years behind technology. For the US, it may be just 100 years.

  68. What really happened by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am the director of the Biond Software and want to put the entire episode in proper context.

    Biond Software Technologies is the leading GPS survey company in India and has a staff of more than 350 people.

    Few salient points about the entire episode.
    1.Prior to starting the Survey in Gujarat, Biond had already submitted a letter to the Gujarat State Police, stating that they will be carrying out a survey of Road attributes and Points of interest for Nokia subsidiary Navteq.

    2.All the work is being exclusively done for Nokia subsidiary Navteq.

    3.All the map data created by the survey is submitted to the Ministry of Defense for approval. After their approval for publication, the Maps are given to Nokia for their cellphone Navigation application. All correspondence with the ministry of defense regarding approval is submitted to Gujarat police. Also, approval from ministry of defense regarding previously published maps is submitted to Gujarat Police. In short, all the data is verified by Ministry of Defense before publication.

    4.We have worked on GIS-GPS projects of different police departments across India, like Mumbai Police, Bangalore Police and Rajasthan Police. All the relevant information has also been submitted to Gujarat Police.

    5.Gujarat police has not taken objection to any of the survey parts.

    6.Survey team had carried with them a digital camera in their personal capacity and was used to capture photographs of themselves, places visited etc., like any other tourist would. Please note that this was not a part of their work and was done as a hobby / tourist activity. Amongst all the photos and video clips taken, there were a few that the Gujarat police found objectionable in light of the atmosphere prevailing after the Mumbai Terrorist Attacks.

    Only clip which Police found objectionable is attempted capture of Plane takeoff at Jamnagar Airport. Please note that this is done from outside the airport boundary wall and no plane is seen in the clip. Please note that they just tried to capture the plane takeoff but were not able to capture in the clip. This single clip was found objectionable and nothing else.

    7.In the aftermath of the Mumbai episode, the people and Police are extremely vigilant and as a part of the vigilance, this survey team was detained and their activities investigated. The bonadfides have been investigated and found clear.

    8.We hope this puts the unfortunate incidents in a proper context.

  69. Re:Crazy Indians? by (H)elix1 · · Score: 2, Funny

    2) A salesman with an install disc

    Q: What is the difference between a used car and software sales?

    A: The car salesman knows he is lying.

  70. Re:Crazy Indians? by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

    Actually I know of two things more dangerous:

    1) A programmer with a screwdriver 2) A salesman with an install disc

    Add to that a copilot who says "I've been thinking..."

    --
    I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
  71. Re:Crazy Indians? by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

    Every important engagement always takes place at the junction of two or more map sheets.

    and in the dark, with bad weather

    --
    I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
  72. Re:Crazy Indians? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  73. Re:Crazy Indians? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The car salesman probably also knows how to drive.

  74. What really happened by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am the director of Biond Software and want to put entire episode in a proper context. Biond Software Technologies is the leading GPS survey company in India and has a staff of more than 350 people. Few salient points about the entire episode. 1.Prior to starting the Survey in Gujarat, Biond had already submitted a letter to the Gujarat State Police, stating that they will be carrying out a survey of Road attributes and Points of interest for Nokia subsidiary Navteq. 2.All the work is being exclusively done for Nokia subsidiary Navteq. 3.All the map data created by the survey is submitted to the Ministry of Defense for approval. After their approval for publication, the Maps are given to Nokia for their cellphone Navigation application. All correspondence with the ministry of defense regarding approval is submitted to Gujarat police. Also, approval from ministry of defense regarding previously published maps is submitted to Gujarat Police. In short, all the data is verified by Ministry of Defense before publication. 4.We have worked on GIS-GPS projects of different police departments across India, like Mumbai Police, Bangalore Police and Rajasthan Police. All the relevant information has also been submitted to Gujarat Police. 5.Gujarat police has not taken objection to any of the survey parts. 6.Survey team had carried with them a digital camera in their personal capacity and was used to capture photographs of themselves, places visited etc., like any other tourist would. Please note that this was not a part of their work and was done as a hobby / tourist activity. Amongst all the photos and video clips taken, there were a few that the Gujarat police found objectionable in light of the atmosphere prevailing after the Mumbai Terrorist Attacks. 7.In the aftermath of the Mumbai episode, the people and Police are extremely vigilant and as a part of the vigilance, this survey team was detained and their activities investigated. The bonadfides have been investigated and found clear. 8.We hope this puts the unfortunate incidents in a proper context.

  75. Re:Crazy Indians? by budgenator · · Score: 1

    I don't think that a programmer with a screwdriver, or a a salesman with an install disc ever walked 30 people into a friendly fire incident.

    --
    Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
  76. Re:Crazy Indians? by richlv · · Score: 1

    no personal offence - english is far from my native language - but mentioning iraq makes me think it might be yours... except the part that says "Your lucky if you can find".
    sorry about the weak grammar nazi :)

    --
    Rich
  77. Response from Director of Biond Software by thinkwhere · · Score: 1

    I've been following this story for a few days now, increasingly concerned as it impacts the ability for people to use GPS to map their own environments, and because I think Nokia/Navteq should make a statement.

    Today, Milind Dalvi from Biond Software has answered some of my questions, and have given some important clarifications.

    http://thinkwhere.wordpress.com/2008/12/19/indian-mappers-still-under-arrest-update/
    including: "All the work is being exclusively done for Nokia subsidiary Navteq Survey team had carried with them a digital camera in their personal capacity and was used to capture photographs of themselves, places visited etc., like any other tourist would. Please note that this was not a part of their work and was done as a hobby / tourist activity"