Slashdot Mirror
Entire Transcript of RIAA's Only Trial Now Online
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "The entire transcript of the RIAA's 'perfect storm,' its first and only trial, which resulted in a $222,000 verdict in a case involving 24 MP3's having a retail value of $23.76, is now available online. After over a year of trying, we have finally obtained the transcript of the Duluth, Minnesota, jury trial which took place October 2, 2007, to October 4, 2007, in Capitol Records v. Thomas. Its 643 pages represent a treasure trove for (a) lawyers representing defendants in other RIAA cases, (b) technologists anxious to see how a MediaSentry investigator and the RIAA's expert witness combined to convince the jurors that the RIAA had proved its case, and (c) anybody interested in finding out about such things as the early-morning October 4th argument in which the RIAA lawyer convinced the judge to make the mistake which forced him to eventually vacate the jury's verdict, and the testimony of SONY BMG's Jennifer Pariser in which she 'misspoke' according to the RIAA's Cary Sherman when she testified under oath that making a copy from one's CD to one's computer is 'stealing.' The transcript was a gift from the 'Joel Fights Back Against RIAA' team defending SONY BMG Music Entertainment v. Tenenbaum, in Boston, Massachusetts. I have the transcript in 3 segments: October 2nd (278 pages(PDF), October 3rd (263 pages)(PDF), and October 4th (100 pages)(PDF)."
is going to RTFETRIAAOT.
Cue the DMCA takedown notice in 5, 4, 3... ;)
Thanks, NYCL. I hope that making this transcript available does something to help make the **AA strategists have to adjust to this "new" internet technology in a way more beneficent to all, instead of just trying to sue the pants off anyone who they think might have crossed their rather arbitrary lines...
"...there are some things that can beat smartness and foresight. Awkwardness and stupidity can." ~ Mark Twain
Just think... The computer that you're using might be worth a million dollars, maybe 20 millions dollars if you download a lot of music. How does it feel to have a million dollars worth of product sitting next to you? Probably not as nice as if a solid gold bar were sitting there, but still, it's the same.. You are a millionaire. Go tell your friends that you're computer is worth 7 figures... cherish it, stroke it... oil it down and rub it for comfort.. until it glistens and shimmers like diamonds.
PJ takes one week off, and everybody moves back to Slashdot.
Nothing to see here. Move along.
Perhaps you ought to marry her? I think you would make a great couple.
So it's fair to fine the defendant $221,976.24 for having the view that their actions weren't unethical? Interesting.
because she tried to make the jurors feel stupid
Where did she do this?
Dear Mr Beckerman,
This trial transcirpt is an absolutely fascinating resource. As a lawyer myself, it provides me with plenty of things to think about.
I was simply hoping to ask you what you think of the Plaintiffs' lawyers. In England (where I practise) there is no concept of lawyers (or barristers, anyway) identifying with the case they seek to advance. On Slashdot, I have seen your disregard, to put it mildy, for the lawyers representing the RIAA.
My questions are these. To what extent do you think that the RIAA's representatives believe the case that they advance? To what extent do you think that matters? Do you think that they are bad people or poor counsel for advancing that case?
And then on a different tack, when one is dealing with litigants in person in a case that might have national repercussions, how can one deal effectively with those defendants if you have no confidence in their willingness to abide by confidentiality agreements and every fear that they will post the details on the internet?
Kind regards,
Tom
Its way too long for me. Can someone sumarize please using the medium of dance.
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
is being widely used in my country (Peru), not only referring music "piracy" but also movie "piracy".
This includes commercials which are screened just before your favorite movie and printed ads in mainstream newspapers (which says "Piracy is stealing").
I have explained my son that this is a lie, because "piracy" and stealing are two different concepts, but many thousands of peruvians don't know this difference.
did I mention that the "Piracy is stealing" commercial showed before movies had the MPAA logo at the end?
- Human knowledge belongs to the world
Mirror of the files. My webhost claims I have unlimited bandwidth.. :-)
Wonder what they would have to say if I started seeding this on a bit torrent client.
It's not just you, the rest of the world is also subjected to this bullshit.
"Disingenuous" is what some people call it. I think that's too polite.
How we know is more important than what we know.
Given the technical knowledge of your average joe...
media sentry guy and expert witness come in and bandy about as much technical jargon as possible while connecting it with vicious invective to nefarious terms like "theft".
defense asks them questions, which they answer in the same language, which may as well be fluent korean to the jurors.
In the end, jurors make decision based on the repeated misinformation from the media of the past 10 years equating downloading to theft, which was repeated amongst the foreign language the "witnesses" happened to be speaking.
The end.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
I rest my case.
node-def: a tactical hacking sim. Now in open beta.
I always cheer loudly when these commercials are played at the movie theatres. I think it provides some comic relief and lets everybody know that not everybody believes the bullshit.
No. It's fine to fine the defendant $221,976.24 for willfully breaking the law. If you don't believe the law is ethical, there are proper channels to go through in order to change it.
"It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
It's -legal-, but not fine.
Not to a jerk, but the problem is that you are in the theater at all. I myself sometimes fall prey to giving money to people who will use it against me (MPAA, RIAA) but whenever I can I try to remind myself and others of the ills of even doing business with these bastards
Read the post I replied to. The OP didn't say the fine was justified because it was against the law, he said it was justified because of a statement made by the defendant:
"The reason why she got slammed with such high levels for each instance of infringement is because she tried to make the jurors feel stupid"
If you don't believe the law is ethical, there are proper channels to go through in order to change it.
That's irrelevant - that doesn't mean that such people should be fined excessively more for what they believe. If your point is to simply say that the law allows for such vast fines, then yes, we know what the law says, and no one is disagreeing with that point - that's a straw man.
Except if you made F150s out of gold, they would not weigh 2197 kg.
I thought court proceedings were public records -- why did it take a year for the transcript to be available?
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
930 GB = 908,000 MB
He sneaks into the theater, you insensitive clod! (Paying the theater by means of buying concessions instead.) ;-D
Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
A catchy name for the Duluth jurors and/or decision might also help. I hate to label them "The Doughheads From Duluth", but if it helps prevent a similar miscarriage of justice...
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
My point was that there is nothing wrong with punishing people who willfully break the law with greater fines than people who accidentally break the law or break the law while not aware of the intricacies.
I think that's what the OP is getting at, too- they hit her with such high fines because they thought that she was willfully breaking the law, knew it, and was trying to slide past.
"It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
Legitimate channels like Jury nullification.
Posting anonymously so that I don't get booted off any jury I get picked for. If they find out you know about jury nullification, they don't want you on the jury! If I'm ever on a file-sharing jury, I will refuse to convict, and do everything in my power to convince my fellow jurors of the same.
I heard stories that they don't even show these in Sweden anymore since Pirate Bay and The Pirate Party have succeeded in making everyone just laugh at them. Can someone confirm?
Is it okay if your camcorder recording includes the anti-piracy notice?
Lets say I innocently buy a used computer from a scrap dealer and find copyrighted songs on it. Can I get 10% ( ~$100) of the song's "worth" as a bounty for turning the machine in to the RIAA?
How about consulting fees?
When I go I look like an 600 pound man with all the goodies I have stuffed in my jacket. 7 bucks for a soda, no thanks!
Like this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d82Lq2rVB_4
...that making a copy from one's CD to one's computer is 'stealing'."
That one baffled me. I am neither a lawyer nor an American. However, I would assume that a witness' opinion of the legality of a given action is completely irrelevant. Establishing the legality of a given action is a task for the court, not a task for the witness.
So why was a witness asked about the legality of copying a CD?
And why was she breaking her oath (as NYCL is somehow implying) when she did not know the correct answer?
commercials which are screened just before your favorite movie
Oh man, nothing shits me more (well, that's not completely utterly true) than buying a DVD, slotting into my player and having to sit through a minute long "You would not steal a handbag, you would not steal a car..." spammercial. How about this, I bought the fucking DVD, doesn't that mean I am NOT a target audience for spamming me with this ad that I can't skip, can't fast forward through and generally does nothing apart from pissing me off?
A small light int he darkness though, I recently worked out that one of the languages generally skips right past the whole advert. I just have to work out that same language is for the other flavors of the same ad.
Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
And that goes back to one of the premises that pirates (me included) use to download whatever we like.
Pirate products are usually better quality, less malware and user harassment, and cheaper to boot. Why pay for worse quality when free is better quality?
They do it here in america too, and the stupidest part is they come to the conclusion:
"Buying pirated movies is stealing"
Uh, no. Not only are pirated movies not stolen, but buying black market goods is not stealing either. Sure, it might be illegal, and sure, the cops can confiscate it w/ out compensation, but last I checked it's not stealing.
Short of a revolution in the US or a major civil Rights movement on the part of consumers where millions of people march in protest of IP laws on the corporate headquarters of these IP giants and the capitol, I don't see any changes coming from this. The current generation of USians lacks the motivation for any sort of anti-monopoly revolution. If real change were to occur, it would take at least a vietnam level uprising against US IP policy.
The problem is that IP Policy is very nebulous and difficult to understand compared to things like protesting compulsory military service or religious or racial discrimination.
I cant seem to find out what finally happened after the verdict -- did she (Thomas) have to pay up the $222,000.00 ? How does the collection work? Does the RIAA collect money immediately from the defendant? or do they end up paying over a period of years in installments?
... is why i download music. To punish those who deserve it, for once.
I don't go to theaters much anymore, but I've promised myself that if I ever do see one of these commercials I'm going to loudly sing "Yo Ho! Yo Ho! A pirate's life for me!" which is both on-topic and as a public performance is a copyright violation in and of itself.
I'm hardly an expert but, I have been reading the pdf's a bit from the beginning and so far one glaring problem I see is that the MAC address referred to in the opening statements was the MAC of the cable modem and nobody had the MAC address of the actual computer.
I shall keep reading now. I suggest anyone that may be sharing copyrighted material also read it. The more you know the better off you will be if the RIAA ever comes knocking on your door.
Thanks again Ray! great stuff!
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than have to have a frontal lobotomy."
In fact they LIED about that and after sayign they would , sued over 20 people i have seen in apartial list .NOTE partial list showing 20 people.
We should all take some time once in a while to thank NYCL and people like him for putting up the good fight and making this kind of information -- which is absolutely crucial to free markets and free people -- available to us all.
I am also going to take a little time this holiday season to go donate a few bucks to the Electronic Frontier Foundation (eff.org) and the Electronic Privacy Information Center (epic.org).
Please help support all of these people, without whom we would all be royally screwed by now.
Here in Korea, they go one step beyond that. "Loaning a disk to a friend is stealing." People at work probably think I'm stealing since I install my own OS and Free software.
I also download music at work. Shock! It's legal because it's CC'ed (Jamendo). When I tried to help a coworker out with some teaching material, she said she needed a license for it. I tried to point out the author's license allowed non-commercial use, but she refused to believe it.
They have these giant publicity campaigns but don't bother to mention "may or may not be illegal depending on the license." It's all just illegal to them. The "re-education" is working, too.
Put identity in the browser.
Would anyone care to make an audio book out of this?
I'm curious about the content (I like learning how things work), but don't want to wade through that many pages. On the other hand, if I could listen to it in the background while I'm doing something else ...
When presented with the value of 9k+ per song, how would the judge phrase the question "Are you retarded?" in a way that's both inoffensive and not degrading to the people with diminished mental capacity? (They might take offense at being likened to lawyers)
You can still make 3.5 trucks of gold, it just doesnt have to be drivable or as solid. Its engine could be smaller, and its frame could be thinner.
Ofcourse theres no glass windows, or wheels, so you can still if you tried build a truck thats shapped the same, but thinner out of gold, not drivable, but looks like it. Its not hard to make thin sheets of gold, but it might bend, so its not practical.
But the guys point was, equal to the weight of 3.5 trucks.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Honestly, it's like fining someone $10,000 for jaywalking or a speeding ticket because they say it isn't wrong, Totally cruel and unusual.
Personally I like the ones at the beginning of a DVD.
Or as my gf said 'so let me get this straight I bought a DVD, *PAID FOR IT*, then they yell at me for stealing their 10 dollar crappy movie?'
'yes they do'
'what dorks'
I don't thank NYCL, I worship him!
Praise to NYCL and the Virgin Thomas!
Where I live, it's already possible to get a $10,000 speeding ticket.
"It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
Here in the US, our Supreme Court said in 1985 that unlawful copies are not the same as stolen goods.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowling_v._United_States_(1985)
It's possible that your Supreme Court feels the same way (then again, perhaps they don't, or haven't addressed it directly, or maybe precedent is different where you are). If that's the case then it'd be easy to point out to people why the recording industry is lying.
The worst is when I pay for a DVD and am forced to watch this shit. I'm talking about the 1-minute "piracy is stealing" commercials which play at the start of the disc, and cannot be skipped due to DRM.
It is offensive to me, to think that I have paid good money for this, only to be forced to listen to this shit every time I watch my movie. The pirated discs don't have this defect.
which county in california do you live in? I'm in Sac.
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
Me and a handful of people from work went to see the Transformers movie at the O2 dome in Grenwich when it came out, we all pirate movies, we all go to the cinema for things which are worth the "experience".
All of the adverts for upcoming movies are for ones we'd already downloaded and watched, all of them were utterly crap, it was a kinda recurring joke that the advert would come up, we'd all proclaim it's crap we've seen it already it isn't worth watching, then it'd show a release date as some time in the future and we'd all burst out laughing.
And no it wasn't just us, there was a general murmor going on along the same lines.
Gee, that Madoff dude sure is got of lightly, otherwise his fine would be 5000 trillion dollars.
There are rumors btw, that he didnt loose 50billion, but moved it to Israel where his clients can access it again, tax free, while claiming massive tax losses for the 'supposed' loss in NY.
So tell me, is the legal system fair or valid ? If the law is not just, its not a law as someone once said.
Banks legally steal money every day via interest charges/spread differences between their borrowings and their lendings.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
Homer: "Drunken hicks of the jury"
(cut to chain-gang scene)
I'd like to return all of my music for refunds at the riaa's going rate!
In finland it is possible, largest yet is just over 100k euro.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3477285.stm
Make a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life
Hah, you're the lucky one. In Denmark, we had commercials before the movies featuring film stars in shops, that, when they heard that the employees "made a copy of a film, to their friends" took 3-5 of the items they had just bought, "just a copy, for their friends".
Man, I nearly walked out of the cinema. Luckily they stopped them soon after.
You forget that anybody who breaks the law in the United States does so willingly. There is no such thing as "accidentally" breaking the law. All people living in the United States have the responsibility to know and understand the law.
In the UK we are also subject to adverts featuring "Knock Off Nigel" who lives in some sort of alternative world where his co-workers dress in ridiculous clothes, appear to spend their time gadding about the office like big gay workshy drama queens singing, and "ridicule" Nigel for offering them copies of movies.
Obviously back in the real world anyone behaving like Nigels would be detractors would be laughed out of the office down to the bike sheds where they'd be given a damn good thrashing.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=964MLq1db4s
We get these adverts in the UK too. You always get some joker in the audience shouting "I would if I could f**king download it" when the advert proclaims "You wouldn't steal a car, why steal music".
Has anybody been reading the testimony of the RIAA's investigator and of its expert witness? It would be interesting to get some discussion of that going on here, like the one that's started on my blog.
Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
Only one man can save us from the tidal wave of piracy... Bring back MC Double Def DP!!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_copy_that_floppy
I shout siege heil
I agree with you and rarely go to the theaters or even know a movie is out until it's available on dvdrip... I mean DVD.
Copyright infringement isn't Piracy. Piracy is a legal term defined in the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), Article 101. See http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part7.htm for what Piracy actually means. You'd be surprised how many so called "educated" people get it so wrong.
from TFA:
" Although we use radio as a tool to promote the sale of albums, when a song is played on the radio, record companies make absolutely nothing. When the artists tour, we make absolutely nothing. When artists sell T-shirts or posters or pens, when they perform in videos or in movies, we make nothing. "
I support small named artists on labels that aren't money grubbing bastards. This is also why when i go to a concert, i buy the band's wares and spend a good lot of money there. I support the band, not the company behind the scenes rubbing their grubby little paws together as they make 95% of the money on a CD sale, while the artist gets crap from it.
Stupidity only gets you so far, then you've gotta try
We should come up with some kind of unified cheer, like: "Arrrrg me maties, dam the torpedoes, full speed ahead"
And whenever we see the advertisement, everyone in the theater shout out in unison, letting everyone know our great disdain.
However, the attitude that a corporation having to settle out of court can avoid humiliation with a gag order is not unknown at the English bar. Out of court settlements between corporations are one thing, those in which an overbearing corporation takes on a small defendant and then discovers that the case will be lost in an embarrassing and humiliating way should, if anything, be extensively publicised.
My suspicion is, and I am sorry if this comes over as somewhat prejudiced, that the decline in the standards of the Bar is partly due to the admission of people with different, less democratic traditions than our own, and that the standards of law in England and Wales have been suffering as a result. I suspect that the parent is one of these people.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
Well piracy is worse than stealing, imagine some guys jumping on the ship killing the crew or dropping it overboard and then taking the entire shipload away....
Oh well the problem is the definition of piracy is applied wrongly here!
Well for me this shit in the cinemas was enough to cut down my movie going expirience from once a week down to once a year within a year. It was almost enough to sit through 20 minutes of commercials, but this thing basically was the last drop of water which hit the bucket before it became overflooded!
Willingly and willfully are not the same thing, but assuming you meant 'willfully' in the first sentence, that's not entirely true.
Mens rea, or the guilty mind (guilty intent) is a key element of the criminal law. There are some crimes for which a guilty mind is not necessary (parking and speeding tickets, for example, some regulatory offenses, whatever) but in the case of most criminal offenses, without intent you cannot be guilty.
Now, that is intent to commit the offense proscribed by law. The fact that you might be ignorant of the law is no excuse, although it can be a mitigating factor.
"It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Peak Performance
p115, line 23:
Heh.
"If we had sued on every one of the files in Ms. Thomas's share directory, the damages would be astronomical; and we have no interest in pursuing cases like that." --Jennifer Pariser, head of litigation and antipiracy for Sony BMG Music Entertainment
$ echo "ceci n'est pas une pipe" | sed -Ee 's/(eci n|pas )//g'
Fine.. fine.
Don't worry, the Fed's on it already, and congress is helping. There's 75%+ more virtual greenbacks floating around the economy than there were in July. Oh, that's right, you were joking. Too bad you got the strategy right, inflation's a hell of a regressive tax.
"If still these truths be held to be
Self evident."
-Edna St. Vincent Millay
The U.S. isn't a signatory to that treaty yet. We can live in our own little relativist linguist paradise where the RIAA links more loaded words to disproportionately stigmatize copyright infringers. Ah, I'd love to see us return to the sanity of the founders where copyright was like 12 years flat, not 70 years after the death of the author. I never did understand how a dead person profits from a monopoly. This isn't ancient Egypt ffs.
"If still these truths be held to be
Self evident."
-Edna St. Vincent Millay
and it all stems from a nasty little late 1800s supreme court case that establishes personhood for corporations independent from their owners. Wikipedia got this one mostly right: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood
One of many problems is that there is no way for a company to suffer negative repercussions for its actions. The abstract company cannot serve jail time if its products say spontaneously combust and kill a real person. And the supreme court case largely shields the corporate officers from facing the repercussions of their actions directing the company. It's a farce of justice.
"If still these truths be held to be
Self evident."
-Edna St. Vincent Millay
Anyone have a torrent link for this?
Simply rip the disk, cut those annoying fragments out, recode and burn to a blank DVD. Voila! A usable version of your legally bought movie.
Think of it as a process analogous to that which is needed to run your legally purchased games: Install game, download crack, install crack, play.
see this
Nice explaination that is, but the real kicker in this case is: :-) it it isn't actually :-/ what happened back then those 3 days in Duluth. "Manifest error of law")
The lawyer for defendant this "Toder", his practise area is "Maritime Law" (it would be
He even is certified as a "as a Proctor in Admiralty by the Maritime Law Association of the United States." (what ever that is)
http://www.chestnutcambronne.com/att_toder.html
Maybe he thought that Thomas' was accused of *piracy* and that's why he did such a lousy job in defending his client! (for example that he hadn't object to the introduction of all those doctored exhibits printouts as evidence!)
But amusing, nonetheless.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
So it's not a problem that it may be illegal and/or immoral, just as long as it's not called "stealing"?
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Song of the Piracy Apologist:
(1) I don't personally believe in copying CDs illegally-- but I think we should avoid using unkind words like "piracy" to describe those that do -- instead, we should describe it as an "infringement", much like a parking infringement.
(2) I don't believe in the record companies emotively abusing the word "theft," but I do believe in emotively abusing words like "information," "sharing," and "Copyright Enforcement Militia."
(3) I believe that piracy is driven by "overpriced CDs" even though CDs have dropped in price over the years.
(4) I believe that piracy is driven by overly long copyright duration, even though most pirated works are recent releases.
(5) I believe that illegitimately downloading music is giving the author "free advertising". I don't buy any of the music I download, of course--but lots of other people probably do.
(6) I believe that ripping off the artists is wrong. The record companies always rip off the artists. Artists support P2P, except the ones that don't (like Metallica), and they don't agree with me, hence they're greedy or their opinion doesn't count or something.
(7) I believe that selling CDs is not a business model, but giving away things for free on the internet is.
(8) I believe that artists should be compensated for their work -- preferably by someone else. I mean, they can sell concert tickets (which someone else can buy) or sell t-shirts (to someone else) or something. As long as someone else subsidizes my free ride, I'm coooooool with it.
(9) I believe in capitalism but only support music business models which involve giving away the fruits of ones labor for free.
(10) I believe that copying someone elses music, and redistributing it to my 1,000,000 "best friends" on the internet is sharing. Music is made for sharing. It's my right.
(11) I believe that record companies cracking down on piracy is "greed", but a mob demanding free entertainment is not.
(12) I believe that it's not really "piracy" unless you charge money for it, because, receiving money is wrong, but taking a free ride is fine.
(13) I believe that disallowing copying and redistributing music over Napster is the same as humming my favourite song in public. Because when I hum my favourite song in public, everyone likes it so much that they run home, get out their tape recorders and once they've got a recording of it, they aren't interested in hearing the original any more.
(14) I believe that when illegal behavior destroys a business, it's "free enterprise at work".
(15) I believe piracy is simply "free advertising." Even though that's what radio is, but with the legal permission of the copyright holder. Basically, what I really want is to be able to choose the songs I want, listen to them whenever I want, but I don't want to have to pay for it. Essentially, I want the whole thing for free with no strings attached.
(16) I believe artists "deserve their money" only in cases in which the RIAA is the bad guy. But in piracy situations, I'm fully justified in ripping them off.
What I find amusing is that the pirates seem unable or unwilling to distinguish between creative activity and brainless copying.
Since a lot of the people here are GPL/OSS advocates: The "OSS way" applied to this domain is to learn how to play an instrument. Or how to sing or whatever. Then get together with a bunch of other people who can also play music, and make some noise.
One of the unfortunate things that has happened to the OSS movement is that a lot of the loudmouth advocates for it don't understand what it's really about. They view it primarily as a means to get free stuff, and then they turn their eyes from the free stuff to the non-free stuff and think to themselves "Maybe I'm entitled to get that one for free, too". The noble ideals of grass roots participation in t