Iran Has Put a Satellite Into Orbit

Dekortage writes "'Dear Iranian nation, your children have placed the first indigenous satellite into orbit,' announced Iran's President Ahmadinejad yesterday. The satellite, named Omid ('hope'), was launched to coincide with the 30th anniversary of the Islamic revolution. Video shown on Iranian television shows a Safir-2 rocket rising into the sky, as a follow-up to a test firing last August."

Comments

Dear Iranian nation

[James_Duncan8181]

If this is true and the satellite reached escape velocity you have just demonstrated that Iran can drop a warhead on any city worldwide.

Super happy fun times to come, good job on easing tensions.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[tritonman]

I think there's probably a big difference between making a rocket which can reach escape velocity and being able to target a specific location thousands of miles away.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[Anonymous Coward]

2 buttons

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[Anonymous Coward]

FYI: Canada has nuclear power stations AND has launched satellites. Are you scared now? We have just demonstrated that we can drop nuclear beer and back-bacon on any city worldwide.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[MadMidnightBomber]

Don't worry, they'll probably only go after people that supplied their enemies with weapons.

PS. D'oh!

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[ScrewMaster]

I think there's probably a big difference between making a rocket which can reach escape velocity and being able to target a specific location thousands of miles away.

There is. In reality, this is more akin to Sputnik than an ICBM.

Nevertheless, we and the Soviets started like this, and it didn't take many years before both we and they had intercontinental capability in weapons delivery. Furthermore, the Iranians (and everyone else interested in near-space) have the advantage of knowing what can be accomplished. We and the Russians did not, and spent a lot of time and money figuring that out.

They also don't have to come up with anything akin to a Saturn V or Energia heavy-lift booster to become a real threat, if they want to be. Why they'd want to be on the U.S. and Soviet target list is beyond me though. Being a nuclear power today (even a nuclear superpower) is risky business, no matter how you slice it.

Honestly, I'm not really all that worried about this: a cruise missile is a lot cheaper to develop and deploy than an ICBM, and damn near as deadly.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[armer]

Well first off every Canadian knows that there is no way we are going to irradiate our beer. And for sure there is no way in H E double hockey sticks that we are going to irradiate it and then strap it onto a rocket and shoot it out of the country. Don't even get me started on the bacon... mmmmmm bacon....

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[Theaetetus]

If this is true and the satellite reached escape velocity you have just demonstrated that Iran can drop a warhead on any city worldwide.

Super happy fun times to come, good job on easing tensions.

Iraq: No ICBMs, no nukes, invaded and President executed after a mock trial.
Korea: Nukes, ICBMs (not worldwide range, but can hit California), currently negotiating in multilateral talks.

I think this move by Iran actually may ease tensions.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[morgan_greywolf]

I think there's probably a big difference between making a rocket which can reach escape velocity and launch a satellite into orbit and being able to target a specific location thousands of miles away.

No, not really.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[Kokuyo]

Hey, I don't feel too good about the US, or any other state, for that matter, having this capability, but AFAIK I've never possessed the impertinence to tell you guys you couldn't have that technology.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[James_Duncan8181]

"I think there's probably a big difference between making a rocket which can reach escape velocity and being able to target a specific location thousands of miles away."

Are you suggesting that the autopilot is the difficult part here? Apollo 11 ran on an insanely sucky chip, and I don't think that Iranian mathematicians are magically incompetent. Thrusters are thrusters, wing surfaces are wing surfaces. It's not a very difficult engineering problem.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[Shakrai]

FYI: Canada has nuclear power stations AND has launched satellites. Are you scared now?

Canada is a responsible member of the international community that hasn't made threats to wipe neighbors off the map, allowed criminals within it's own population to overrun foreign embassies and supplied terrorist groups with financial support/weapons.

If Iran wants to be treated like a grown up member of the international community perhaps they could borrow a few lessons from our neighbors to the North? Besides which, ice hockey is way cooler than soccer anyway.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[Eevee]

Iraq: No ICBMs, no nukes, invaded and President executed after a mock trial.

Korea: Nukes, ICBMs (not worldwide range, but can hit California), currently negotiating in multilateral talks.

Iraq: Invaded another country, didn't have powerful friends.

North Korea: Hasn't invaded another country since the 1950s, has powerful friends in Russia and China, and has enough conventional artillary already positioned to flatten Seoul within an hour.

Nukes aren't the only reason for the current situation.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[nobodylocalhost]

ZOMG Iranians have reached space age, we must re-assert our technical superiority by building seven invincible mechas, and we shall call them GUNDAMS! *back drop music*

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[cbiltcliffe]

Being a nuclear power today (even a nuclear superpower) is risky business, no matter how you slice it.

There's only one problem with this:

According to a number of sources, President Mahmoud "Untreatable-Psychotic" Ahmadinejad of Iran firmly believes that Allah will aid him in wiping out the infidels of the world. Therefore, if he were to start a nuclear war that wiped out the entire planet, Iran would be safe amid piles of smoking rubble covering the rest of the planet.

I don't know how much truth there is in this, as it could be at least partially manufactured propaganda by the political/media elite on our side, but I wouldn't want to bet my life on that, especially considering the behaviour of some others in the region.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[rs79]

that hasn't made threats to wipe neighbors off the map, allowed criminals within it's own population to overrun foreign embassies and supplied terrorist groups with financial support/weapons.

Just to be clear, are you talking about Iran or the US here?

Recall that is came out that Nixon was buying weapons in China and sending them through Russia to Afghani "freedom fighters". The same guys we call "insurgants" today. And that was 30 years ago. It didnt stop happening, they just cover it up better these days. Cept for Col. North who got caught.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[John Betonschaar]

Canada is a responsible member of the international community that hasn't made threats to wipe neighbors off the map, allowed criminals within it's own population to overrun foreign embassies and supplied terrorist groups with financial support/weapons.

Well, maybe Canada hasn't, but both the US and Israel come pretty close. And that's not even considering they actually followed up on some of those threats. And spreading lies and FUD about terrorists, WOMD and the nuclear and/or missile programs of the 'rogue states' we should be so fucking scared about.

Haven't heard much complaining about Pakistan lately (note: missiles and nuclear technology), but that's probably because they are so helpful 'catching Bin Laden' (enemy of the state #1 you know).

Please stop basing your world views on the propaganda spread by the US and all those other 'responsible members of the international community', your only fooling yourself. We are being lied to and told half-truths by our prime minister here in the Netherlands, who still refuses to acknowledge Iraq was invaded based on false intelligence, and is still desperately trying to prevent the truth being uncovered. And we like to view our country as one of the most democratic and free in this world.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[hey!]

Well, yes obviously. But being able to place something in orbit is probably the most significant milestone on the road to being able to place a warhead any place on the planet. Once you achieve that, then terrestrial distances are not a barrier.

In fact, the Sputnik rocket was simply one of several prototype variants of the R-7 rocket, the world's first ICBM. The Sputnik launches were in essence part of the testing program for that missile, which had its first successful flight a little more than a month before Sputnik 1. The Sputnik rocket was little more than a shortened version of that rocket.

For historical reference, the timeline looks like this:

May 15, 1957: First launch test of prototype R-7 fails, traveling only 400km.

August 21, 1957: on third attempt, R-7 prototype makes first successful flight of 6000km.

October 4, 1957: Sputnik launched on slightly shorter, lighter version of successful R-7 prototype.

December 15, 1959: An R-7 is deployed, becoming the world's first operational ICBM.

Total time from achieving Earth Orbit to Functional ICBM: 26 months.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[Jeoh]

North Korea never invaded any nation, it was a civil war.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[jeffasselin]

He's talking about Canada.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[FredTheDread]

I think there's probably a big difference between making a rocket which can reach escape velocity and being able to target a specific location thousands of miles away.

They might just take the Israeli approach and point it in the general direction of some civilians, a hospital or a UN compund.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[Zironic]

There is nothing about the term president that implies that you were elected, it just means leader.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[HBI]

You should try getting the story right at least. Accuracy is a basic requirement for being taken seriously. You aren't even close.

The Soviets (Russians) had invaded Afghanistan in 1979. Immediately afterwards, Carter (not Nixon) approved sending arms to the insurgents within the country. This policy was continued by the Reagan Administration. The Soviets withdrew in 1989 with their tails between their legs. This was all above-board, the US made no bones about opposing this and arming the insurgents.

The Sandinista regime in Nicaragua was aligned with Moscow and Havana which was unacceptable to most people in the US. From the instant that the Sandinista regime was in power (1977), there was a homegrown insurgency against the communist-dominated regime. The US began assisting the insurgents shortly thereafter. However, some Massachusetts and NYC Democrat types managed to get a set of amendments collectively called the Boland Amendment tacked onto some other bills which specifically instructed the DoD, CIA and ultimately the rest of the US Government to cease supporting the Contras. In this context, the Iran-Contra Affair occurred. Finally, we get to Ollie North.

I recommend reading the talk page on the Contras. The disagreements there, while profound, are also enlightening to show how much politics affect remembrance of the past.

Sheesh, kids these days. No one remembers the Cold War.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[cbiltcliffe]

I'm Canadian, and I feel the same way about GW.

Maybe we should just go with "Politicians of any form should not be allowed to control weapons of any form."

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[icebrain]

It explains why the US didn't invade North Vietnam, or bomb China in the 50s, or make a real attempt at invading Cuba. It's why neither side pushed too far in 1973.

To quote Mr. Slade again:

When a country first acquires nuclear weapons it does so out of a very accurate perception that possession of nukes fundamentally changes it relationships with other powers. What nuclear weapons buy for a New Nuclear Power (NNP) is the fact that once the country in question has nuclear weapons, it cannot be beaten. It can be defeated, that is it can be prevented from achieving certain goals or stopped from following certain courses of action, but it cannot be beaten. It will never have enemy tanks moving down the streets of its capital, it will never have its national treasures looted and its citizens forced into servitude. The enemy will be destroyed by nuclear attack first. A potential enemy knows that so will not push the situation to the point where our NNP is on the verge of being beaten. In effect, the effect of acquiring nuclear weapons is that the owning country has set limits on any conflict in which it is involved. This is such an immensely attractive option that states find it irresistible.

Only later do they realize the problem. Nuclear weapons are so immensely destructive that they mean a country can be totally destroyed by their use. Although our NNP cannot be beaten by an enemy it can be destroyed by that enemy. Although a beaten country can pick itself up and recover, the chances of a country devastated by nuclear strikes doing the same are virtually non-existant. [This needs some elaboration. Given the likely scale and effects of a nuclear attack, its most unlikely that the everybody will be killed. There will be survivors and they will rebuild a society but it will have nothing in common with what was there before. So, to all intents and purposes, once a society initiates a nuclear exchange its gone forever]. Once this basic factor has been absorbed, the NNP makes a fundamental realization that will influence every move it makes from this point onwards. If it does nothing, its effectively invincible. If, however, it does something, there is a serious risk that it will initiate a chain of events that will eventually lead to a nuclear holocaust. The result of that terrifying realization is strategic paralysis.

With that appreciation of strategic paralysis comes an even worse problem. A non-nuclear country has a wide range of options for its forces. Although its actions may incur a risk of being beaten they do not court destruction. Thus, a non-nuclear nation can afford to take risks of a calculated nature. However, a nuclear-equipped nation has to consider the risk that actions by its conventional forces will lead to a situation where it may have to use its nuclear forces with the resulting holocaust. Therefore, not only are its strategic nuclear options restricted by its possession of nuclear weapons, so are its tactical and operational options. So we add tactical and operational paralysis to the strategic variety. This is why we see such a tremendous emphasis on the mechanics of decision making in nuclear powers. Every decision has to be thought through, not for one step or the step after but for six, seven or eight steps down the line.

We can see this in the events of the 1960s and 1970s, especially surrounding the Vietnam War. Every so often, the question gets asked "How could the US have won in Vietnam?" with a series of replies that include invading the North, extending the bombing to China and other dramatic escalations of the conflict. Now, it should be obvious why such suggestions could not, in the real world, be contemplated. The risk of ending up in a nuclear war was too great. For another example, note how the presence of nuclear weapons restricted and limited the tactical and operational options available to both sides in the 1973 Yom Kippur War. In effect neither side could push the war to a final conclusion because to do so would bring down nuclear

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[horatio]

Canada's military power is to be feared. They have a frigate as well. I keep waiting for it to show up on Lake Erie and start shelling Cedar Point because they don't have cool theme parks like we yanks do.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[R2.0]

Re. your sig: are you aware that there IS a car made of Legos at Legoland in CA?

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[Ellis D. Tripp]

Apollo 11 ran on an insanely sucky chip

Apollo 11 (and all the others) actually ran on a shitload of NOR gates, the single chip CPU not having been invented yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[Comatose51]

If Iran (or even the rest of the world) aspires to be like Canada, the world would be a better place. Unlike other peaceful countries, Canada actually fights but they tend to choose their battles and wars more carefully than we do in the US.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[actionbastard]

"There is. In reality, this is more akin to Sputnik than an ICBM."

Sputnik was launched with an ICBM -an R-7 to be exact.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[Shakrai]

Apples and oranges. An accidental bombing under the fog of war hardly compares to overrunning a foreign embassy and holding the people therein hostage for over a year.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[Rei]

Do we really have to turn this into a discussion of nuclear weapons? Can't we just accept this at face value -- a very difficult technical achievement made all the more impressive for occurring in a country that's under international sanctions designed to prevent, among other things, advancements in the field of rocketry?

Yes, nuclear missile technology is closely related to satellite launch technology. Yes, future iterations of this could potentially be adapted into payload delivery systems. Yes, Iran has been provocative in the past. But they're not doing offensive missile tests. They're not doing war games. They're not trying to be provocative here -- they launched a satellite, not a bomb. A satellite called Hope. This isn't a message to the world screaming, "Fear Us!". This is a message to the world asking, "Respect Us."

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[radtea]

The Sandinista regime in Nicaragua was aligned with Moscow and Havana which was unacceptable to most people in the US.

So what? I mean really, if one wanted to encase American Arrogance in amber and preserve it for posterity one could hardly do better than this statement.

There's this concept called "national sovereignty" that says the internal affairs of one nation are no business of any other. It is frequently violated in this crazy world of ours, and never so often as by the United States.

That anyone would put forward "this was unacceptable to many Americans" as if it were any kind of justification for the deliberate destablization of a sovereign power by funding murderous brigands is terrifying.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[mmustapic]

Another detail about the US support to the Contras. Nicaragua took the case to the International Court of Justice, and won http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States/. The US then vetoed any resolution int the UN Security Council trying to enforce the ICJ resolution.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[NinjaPablo]

Just because something has a friendly name like Hope doesn't mean it has entirely benign intentions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smiling_Buddha

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[yuriyg]

Sorry, but this is exactly what this discussion should be about. First of all, remember that the rocket technology was originally developed as a weapon delivery system. Second, you have to look at the context. There's a nationalist militarist regime in Iran right now. If Hit^H^H^H Franco or Pinochet launches a satellite into space, the discussion would have and should have been about the potential military uses of the technology.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[Clandestine_Blaze]

You're right about him being second in command, and I agree that the President of Iran is not powerless, but the Iranian constitution limits the President's powers. The Iranian President is also not in charge of the military. Only the Supreme Leader can wage war.

The President of Iran is really only responsible for setting economic policies.

Here's an older PBS page that outlines the power structure in Iran. While it is somewhat dated, the power structure in Iran hasn't changed since the 1990's.

Basically, Ahmadinejad can make as many threats as he wants, but he cannot carry them out without explicit blessings from the supreme leader, which is not likely to happen.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[Dahamma]

This isn't a message to the world screaming, "Fear Us!". This is a message to the world asking, "Respect Us."

Yeah, right. Just like China's message to the world after shooting down one of their old satellites wasn't "look, we have the technology to shoot down satellites", it was "everyone rejoice, we now have the means to help defend our great united human race when Mars Attacks!!"

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[Zancarius]

Do we really have to turn this into a discussion of nuclear weapons?

Yes, because it's applicable technology (as you later admit).

Can't we just accept this at face value -- a very difficult technical achievement made all the more impressive for occurring in a country that's under international sanctions designed to prevent, among other things, advancements in the field of rocketry?

Given Iran's recent history of sabre-rattling, I don't see why we can't be skeptical.

A satellite called Hope. This isn't a message to the world screaming, "Fear Us!". This is a message to the world asking, "Respect Us."

I don't really see what the name of the satellite has to do with the fact that Iran has proven it is fast approaching the capability to launch payloads. Whether those payloads will be for peaceful or wartime purposes remains to be seen. However, given President Ahmadinejad's statements over the last couple of years, I think it's important to take this demonstration and its purpose with a healthy dose of suspicion.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[BlackSabbath]

> Given Iran's recent history of sabre-rattling, I don't see why we can't be skeptical.

I'm sorry but I can't let this slide. Iran's history of sabre-rattling? It seems like every few weeks either the US and/or Israel keep making threats against Iran ("no option is off the table"). And please don't raise the whole "wipe Israel off the map" thing as that has been proven to be a complete beat up (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm).

As for Iran's belligirent attitude towards the US, that is amply explained by the US' sorry history of intervention in that country (overthrowing the democratically elected Mossadegh and installing the tyrant Shah). If that happened to your country, you might feel just slightly miffed towards the country that caused that to happen.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[Zancarius]

I'm sorry but I can't let this slide. Iran's history of sabre-rattling?

Of course you can't let it slide, because I'm certain you believe everything they do is exclusively for peaceful purposes. Just like other launches they've done.

It seems like every few weeks either the US and/or Israel keep making threats against Iran ("no option is off the table").

I don't recall mentioning Israel in my post. Odd.

It would be fantastic if my point would have been taken at face value. Iran's President has been making a variety of strong statements for quite some time now, and I'm not going to enumerate through a healthy list when Google can provide more than enough articles to illustrate my point. The simple truth to the matter is that Iran's strong words and sabre-rattling imply that we need to take the purposes of this launch with a healthy dose of skepticism. Is that too much to ask?

As for Iran's belligirent attitude towards the US, that is amply explained by the US' sorry history of intervention in that country (overthrowing the democratically elected Mossadegh and installing the tyrant Shah). If that happened to your country, you might feel just slightly miffed towards the country that caused that to happen.

I wasn't debating what bearing the US' history has had on Iran's statements as of late. I'm simply pointing out that their statements are indicative of ulterior motives with regards to demonstrations like this launch.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[BlackSabbath]

> Of course you can't let it slide, because I'm certain you believe everything they do is exclusively for peaceful purposes.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. Let me clarify, I don't believe everything they do is for peaceful purposes, just like I don't believe everything WE do is for peaceful purposes.

> I'm not going to enumerate through a healthy list when Google can provide more than enough articles to illustrate my point

I would like you to actually point me to the text of any speech of Ahmadinejad's where he threatens any state with military action. Just one. Most of the articles you speak of are basically recycling the whole "Iran is evil/wipe us off the mat" meme and most of it based not on Ahmadinejad's rhetoric, but on our politician's rhetoric. i.e. no different to the whole "US is evil" meme that pervades most of the rest of the world (and with a similar level of evidence to back it up).

How different are Ahmadinejad's speeches regarding the US from say, Reagan's speech about the "evil empire" (USSR)?

> their statements are indicative of ulterior motives

Indeed. Same applies to our guys too.

Re:Dear Iranian nation

[Rei]

Ever looked at how much of our electricity is generated from oil? A tiny percentage. Why? Because oil is very expensive per unit energy. It's always better to sell it and make your power another way. It'd probably be cheaper for them to sell their oil and import coal from halfway around the world than to burn the oil (certainly last summer it would have been; not so sure now).

That's not to say that Iran *doesn't* want to have nuclear weapons. But there's a completely rational explanation to not want to burn oil for power. If gold burned, would you suggest that gold-rich nations burn their gold for power?

Citation Needed?

[tb3]

I dunno, but I'd like to see some third party confirmation before I believe that Iran has a satellite in orbit. Launching a satellite and putting it in orbit is a tricky thing to do; only a few countries have managed it, and none the size or technology level of Iran, IIRC.

Honestly, look at this list. One of these things in not like the others.

Re:Citation Needed?

[BenihanaX]

If it's as simple as all that, why is there a list equally as long, of countries that were unsuccessful? I think calling it routine is naive.

Re:Citation Needed?

[Samschnooks]

Have you seen Rick Steve's Iran yet? He walked up to a bunch of women as asked them what they were studying in university. All of them said Chemistry. A conservative Muslim country and they're sending they're women to university to study science - at no cost to these women!

Here in the States, we spend our resources on making sure that everyone can get TV reception and we spend money on lawsuits so that "Intelligent Design" can be taught in science class. In developing countries, science, engineering and medicine are a kid's dream career. Here, it's being famous for some reason - usually for getting drunk and doing outrageous things.

Iran isn't the only country doing this.

Re:Citation Needed?

[ianare]

The problem is keeping them there once they graduate. But yes, Iran does have a strong educational system, in some ways better than the US (though certainly not all).

"With god's help"

[Crumplecorn]

The real achievement here may be that religion was instrumental in space flight.

Re:"With god's help"

[should_be_linear]

Well, space is there, and we're going to climb it, and the moon and the planets are there, and new hopes for knowledge and peace are there. And, therefore, as we set sail we ask God's blessing on the most hazardous and dangerous and greatest adventure on which man has ever embarked.

Thank you.

John F. Kennedy - September 12, 1962

Re:"With god's help"

[Crumplecorn]

I was hoping that someone would bring up an example like this, so that I could point out that America asks for blessings from their deity on their endeavours, whereas others choose to credit the deity with part or all of the achievement.

Re:"With god's help"

[should_be_linear]

I was hoping someone will go over both statements word-for-word until irrefutable prove of our "civilization" moral superiority is found.

well i recall it

[unity100]

iran doesnt invade any country actively, but they invade them through the religious terorrist organizations they fund. hezbollah, hamas, ibda-c, numerous groups trying to invade pakistan, afghanistan are just a few.

much more annoying and dangerous.

Re:well i recall it

[Kokuyo]

Ah, much like the US funded the Afghan war against Russia... One wonders where all those terrorists got their ideas from...

Omid

[JamJam]

The satellite, named Omid ("hope")

Omid for peace.

Take them at face value.

[tjstork]

I'd take Iran at face value for everything they say. They are going to get a nuclear capability. They are going to get a delivery system. They are going to act to expand their values world wide. Israel is only the beginning.

We should not be surprised with this. The Western nations have been at odds with Islamic nations for 1500 years, and with Persia for nearly 3000. That Persia now Iran is acting up again is hardly a surprise. One might surmise that in the grand scheme of things, this is just a conflict between ideologies and peoples and no one side is right, but the thing is, since most of us are westerners, we would prefer that our side prevail.

To that end, I suppose that those who would argue that strategic missile defense cannot be built, or that militarization of space should be avoided, or that Iran is not a threat, need to rethink that. And similarly, those that would advocate war with Iran, might need to rethink that as well. This now a game where tens of millions of people might get killed, not just thousands.

Re:Take them at face value.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you Western types want to have a World War 3 so soon, count us out. We may not honor-kill and we may have high technology, but we are a Middle-Eastern civilization and we see no reason to side with a group of so-called "friends" who spend their media time calling us Nazis over ancient "friends" who turned against us in fundamentalism 30 years ago. We'll just protect ourselves like we always have.

Sincerely,
The Jews

Re:Take them at face value.

[Theaetetus]

To that end, I suppose that those who would argue that strategic missile defense cannot be built, or that militarization of space should be avoided, or that Iran is not a threat, need to rethink that.

Strategic missile defense is a waste of money and effort, equivalent to airport metal detectors. They're security theater - if successful, they may prevent an attack from that vector, but their real value lies in making the citizens feel safer and deterring attempts along that one vector.

Problem is, there are so many other vectors that are easier - millions if not billions of shipping containers enter the US each year entirely uninspected. Why mess with a launch and guidance system able to withstand launch and reentry stresses when you could just build a Fat Man and put it in the back of a van?
Want a scarier idea? Say we do start inspecting all the shipping containers to enter the country... where would we do it? Probably dockside in major coastal cities, so even if we do happen to check the right container, a simple deadman switch would still make for a successful attack.

Defense is not the solution, and security theater is just a waste.

Re:Take them at face value.

[Yvanhoe]

Dear Sir,

I understand your request for mobilization, I understand that the Western world is in great peril. Please be assured of my everlasting support to your cause against these 1500 years (or 3000 years or something...) old enemies. I would be glad to help but I am currently too busy digging some trenches to protect me from our neighbors. See, my nation is fighting since 1000 years (or 2000 or whatever) against the Germanic people. Our feud is so old that I think reconciliation may prove impossible. All we can do is arm for war.

Please be assured of my deepest sympathy
A French guy.

Re:Take them at face value.

[Shakrai]

Our feud is so old that I think reconciliation may prove impossible

The GP didn't say reconciliation is impossible. The GP said that the Western world has a history of clashing with the Islamic/Middle Eastern World. I see nothing in human history to suggest that this will change soon -- if anything it's going to get worse as the competition for limited resources heats up.

Mind you, it won't start with bullets -- it will start with economics.

Re:Take them at face value.

[jellomizer]

Lisa, I would like to buy your rock.

Re:Take them at face value.

[roystgnr]

Why mess with a launch and guidance system able to withstand launch and reentry stresses when you could just build a Fat Man and put it in the back of a van?

Because the former can go from "mere deterrent" to "enemy city exploding" in an hour, can't be countered without even more advanced technology, and gives you deterrence value for decades. The latter can go from "act of war that we'd better hope nobody discovers" to "enemy port city exploding" in days, doesn't work well if the enemy is on heightened enough alert to search or blockade approaching vans and ships, can't be demonstrated without actually committing an act of war, and so is relatively useless as a deterrent. Vans may be the delivery system of choice for terrorists planning surprise attacks, but nations hoping to commit other acts of war without reprisal are going to want nuclear weapons that can be effectively brandished without being used.

Not that I'm accusing Iran of plotting wars; the same deterrence tactics for a nation that wants to get away with an invasion apply even more strongly one that is just afraid of being invaded.

Re:Take them at face value.

[icebrain]

Other attack vectors (smuggling in warheads by sea/land) may be technically easier and more likely, but (being cold about it) the end damage potential is much less. If terrorists set off a bomb or two, there's lots of damage, but the rest of the country is still intact. But if a missile launches, the end result is basically that all the missiles fly. And that ruins everyone's day.

To quote Stuart Slade, defense analyst (emphasis mine):

The problem with missiles is this; once they are fired, they are on their way. Nothing can stop them (in the sense that the launch decision is final; contrary to many people's opinion, ICBMs do not have a destruct system - ones fired on range testing do, but operational ones do not) and nothing can prevent them striking their targets. The other problem is that they are very fast-moving and give the forces on the other side very little chance to decide what is happening and why. If a launch is detected now, the President has less time to make his decision over future action than most people to chose their meal at a restaurant.

Thrown into that is the inevitability of the whole thing; a missile fired means a target hit. Unless the wretched thing malfunctions, of course, but nuclear weapons are not a good place to start relying on luck. So the simple fact that a missile is on its way means that a country is about to have some fairly catastrophic damage inflicted on it. But is that all? Is that first missile the start of a salvo? Is it aimed at the deterrent forces on the ground - so that any response will be ragged? Without going too deeply into the dynamics of the decision (that would take a book rather than an answer to a question on an essay), the odds stack so that if a missile is inbound, it requires immense faith and courage not to return fire. That's step one.

Now we go to step two. The nation that has let one fly either by accident or design. Its government knows that the "other side" has immense pressure on it to return fire, that the odds in the decision-making process stack in favor of opening fire. If they hang around and wait to see what will happen, the rest of their forces get caught on the ground - and destroyed. So they require immense faith and courage not to continue firing.

Step three - the nation that is being fired on knows that the other guys are working on the basis that the odds stack in favor of continuing firing. That ends it; they know the other guys will open fire, so even if they had decided not to, they will reverse that decision. The guys who fired first know that so, even if they had decided not to fire, they reverse that decision.

Everybody fires, everybody dies. More or less. Both sides know it so they don't bother with the question. One flies, they all fly. The only question is the timing.

How does BMD figure into this? It buys time. A single missile inbound can be shot down reasonably easily. So if a single inbound is detected, it can be shot down - stopped from reaching its target. That takes the dreadful time squeeze out - both sides can afford to wait to see what happens. The side that is being shot at can see what develops and also contact the other side and ask. Not a joke - that may be the most important single step. The side that let one fly by accident knows that the other side is going to wait so they can also afford to do so. And the whole situation is a lot cooler.

That's not to say we shouldn't secure ports and borders and all that. We certainly should. But we can't ignore the less-likely but potentially more catastrophic threat, either. The "we can't stop everything, so let's do nothing" approach is stupid, too.

It should also be noted that the US had a working missile defense system in the 70s.

Re:Take them at face value.

[whisper_jeff]

I suspect the fact that the USSR knew that, for every missile they launched at the US, they'd have one launched their way was a bigger missile defense than any missile defense system. There's enough time between launch and impact that both sides knew that sending anything skyward would spark a retaliation that would end up crippling both sides. (This is why Russia in Cuba was so scary - the defense of time would have been mostly eliminated.)

Re:Take them at face value.

[tjstork]

I don't think people would be advocating war with Iran if Iran was a responsible member of the international community. They could demonstrate this by ending their support of terrorist organizations and toning down the anti-Israeli rhetoric. I doubt they are inclined to do this so we'll see what the next move on the chessboard winds up being.....

That's just the thing. If Iran quit funding Hamas and Hizbollah and trying to destroy Israel, the USA would be buying authentic Persian rugs left and right. Iran has -something- of a democracy to work with, an educated people with a cultural heritage that is very much intertwined with that of the West, and its like, they have to be dicks. And Israel isn't even like a threat to Iran. It's just crazy.

Re:Take them at face value.

[Halo1]

That wooshing sound you just heard was not a Persian bullet.

Re:Take them at face value.

[Rolgar]

There is another value, and that is at the negotiating table. If you have a very good defense (which we are no way near), you basically discount the military value of the other guy's weapon, which can give you an edge in negotiations. Unfortunately, the amount of coverage necessary to protect every target might make the cost hugely preventative, unless you can put the defense near the launch point, which is probably unlikely in the case of defending against Iranian nukes.

Re:Take them at face value.

[^BR]

Small change... I don't actually expect to see Islam 1500 year in my lifetime. The Prophet birth is circa 570 and Islam itself quite a few year later.

Re:Take them at face value.

[DerekLyons]

Strategic missile defense is a waste of money and effort, equivalent to airport metal detectors. They're security theater - if successful, they may prevent an attack from that vector, but their real value lies in making the citizens feel safer and deterring attempts along that one vector.

Which is a good thing - because the greatest threat lies along that vector.
 
What, you don't think there's a reason why Iran is chasing both nuclear and rocketry capability? You don't think it's the same reason North Korea is doing the same? Not to mention Pakistan and India.
 
 

Problem is, there are so many other vectors that are easier - millions if not billions of shipping containers enter the US each year entirely uninspected. Why mess with a launch and guidance system able to withstand launch and reentry stresses when you could just build a Fat Man and put it in the back of a van?

The problem is, that solution is only of value to terrorists - its has no deterrent effect and provides zero political or diplomatic value. No country is going to spend billions of dollars on a program with essentially zero return, especially since the potential political, diplomatic, and economic costs of such a program are so high.

Your stereotypes?

[hotsauce]

Or maybe your stereotypes are wrong? What one thing is not like the others? I don't see why India can launch a satellite in 1980, but Iran cannot 30 years later.

Congratulations

[Anonymous Coward]

The mark of a civilised mind would be to celebrate this achievement. Those gripped by tribal paranoia, searching for ways to disparage the Iranians should take a good look at themselves (I'm mainly looking at you now Americans). Relax, I've played football with some Iranian guys seen for myself in the shower, their dicks are not significantly bigger than the average Western male.

Re:Congratulations

[gentooligan]

"their dicks are not significantly bigger than the average Western male."

Their dicks are close to 6 feet long?

Re:Congratulations

[crabboy.com]

because society doesn't give them any choices that are more attractive to them.

Unlike all the rest of us, right? I'd be snorting coke off a supermodel's ass right now, but society didn't give me that choice. So, I had to take a job in IT instead...

Re:pretty impressive

[Dunbal]

What do you mean? This satellite is a shoe... and it's expected to de-orbit over Texas in the near future.

Re:Citation Needed? - Confirmed

[Somegeek]

from cnn:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/02/03/iran.satellite/index.html

"The United States has confirmed that Iran launched a low-earth orbit satellite on Monday night, two U.S. officials told CNN's Barbara Starr. "

Wake up call

[squoozer]

The next 50 years or so are going to be a serious wake up call to the west and the US in particular I think. We have enjoyed a technological advantage over the rest of the world for a good while now but it is being eroded at a fantastic rate. That advantage has allowed us to push the rest of the world and I fear that will come back to haunt us. Back when the west was first launching things into space the knowledge, skill and equipment needed to build such machines was exceedingly difficult to come by. It's still not easy to launch a payload into space but the equipment required to build a launch vehicle is no longer hard to come by and the knowledge and skill can be fairly easily "bought".

Re:Wake up call

[Shakrai]

We have enjoyed a technological advantage over the rest of the world for a good while now but it is being eroded at a fantastic rate

Sounds like a reason to increase our funding of the science adviser guy at the expense of the elvis guy ;) We'll just hide behind our nukes/great wall/united nations for a few turns while we fund him, then switch to fundamentalism and take care of those Persian bastards once and for all!

Re:So?

[Dunbal]

Well if you consider that embassies are technically the territory of the country they represent, then Iran HAS invaded a country in recent history...

....With a Return Address

[BBCWatcher]

I have never heard of a ballistic missile that could not be tracked back to its point of origin. That means if Iran ever launches a missile as a weapon it'll be her last.

Re:....With a Return Address

[c6gunner]

That means if Iran ever launches a missile as a weapon it'll be her last.

Which I'm sure will greatly comfort the few million who die when that missiles comes back down.

At least when we were facing down the Russians, we knew we had a rational enemy who wouldn't launch without a damn good reason. But when you've got religious fanatics in charge of nuclear arsenals ... well, the extremist Muslims have no qualms with dying for their religion, nor do they seem to have much of a problem with causing the deaths of other Muslims. Really, whether Iran ever launches or not isn't going to be decided by anything we can predict - more likely that decision will rest on whether the reining mullahs are totally insane, or just a little-bit insane.

Re:....With a Return Address

[ebuck]

... well, the extremist Muslims have no qualms with dying for their religion, nor do they seem to have much of a problem with causing the deaths of other Muslims.

Fortunately, most of the Muslims in any part of the world, including Iraq, are not extremist. The 20% or so here in the USA are not extremist, and most other countries are not fully populated by extremist Muslims either.

Arguing that a country which gains nuclear power is immediately going to find an extremist subset of their population and put them in charge of launching their military's most prized weapon is just utter nonsense and scaremongering.

By your logic, the US military command is populated with key leaders from The Army of God, Aryan Nations, Christian Patriots, and the Ku Klux Klan.

Troll

[hotsauce]

"Acting up"? *Sigh* Why do I respond to trolls?

Go read a bit of modern Iranian history, before you fall back on stereotypes of Islam-vs-the-rest-of-the-world. If it hadn't been for our meddling (oh, overthrowing governments, oil grabs etc--none of this is controversial), Iran would not be in confrontation with us today. Twenty years after the revolution, they tried peace overtures, but Bush decided instead to dub them an "Axis of Evil" (wow, thank god our era of world-as-cartoon presidents is over). I can't understand your claim of Iran expanding its values into Israel.

We have no right to overthrow other people's governments, and even less right to act surprised when they get pissed over it. And speaking of Israel: when they behave all might is right, others are going to try to acquire might to counter that.

Re:Racist Piece Of Garbage

[hort_wort]

I can see where this AC is coming from. Iran seems to be doing a good job these last few years, but people still give them a bad rap. This isn't the first headline I've seen with something positive about Iran. If anyone actually bothers reading a bio, you'll see that Ahmadinejad has been doing a really nice job compared to his predecessors. For example, he reestablished relations with the US after 30 years of the silent treatment. That sounds like a step in the right direction to me.

I just hope the intelligent, calm, undiscriminating folk on slashdot can give Iran a chance. Both of them.

Respect

[krischik]

Why they'd want to be on the U.S. and Soviet target list is beyond me though. Being a nuclear power today (even a nuclear superpower) is risky business, no matter how you slice it.

Respect. The USA does not treat countries without nukes with the same kind of respect as they do otherwise.

Over the years and especially after two Presidents with the name of "Bush" I have changed my point of view drasticly.

Those who warned about the "American Imperialism" had been right all along and if I became head of state somewhere I would terminate the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty right away.

Martin

Re:Respect

[mark_hill97]

No army before WW2 eh? So how did we fight world war one? How did we fight the civil war? How did we fight all those wars before then?

We had a policy to stay out of European affairs but we damn sure had an army. We changed that policy after being dragged into two world wars and seeing the tragic loss of life they caused.

Sure, we do have a lot of bases worldwide but many of them are because of defensive treaties. For example our bases in Japan are there for defensive purposes and were used for reconstruction of Japan after the war, same with Germany.

Also, a lot of them are holdovers from the cold war in which we prevented the soviets from taking over Europe. Or do all you Europeans want to be praising the soviet motherland?

Re:Respect

[cgenman]

Respect. The USA does not treat countries without nukes with the same kind of respect as they do otherwise.

US:"Iraq, you have nukes and we must stop you immediately."
Iraq:"No we don't. Look, inspect all you like."
[Iraq is invaded]

US:"North Korea, you have nukes and we must stop you immediately."
North Korea:"Damned right we do. What are you going to do about it?"
[North Korea is ignored]

Re:Respect

[Anonymous Coward]

how many new countries have we annexed in the past couple of decades

Nicaraugua, Panama, and in 03 the CIA tried to overthrow Chavez./p>

Ok, that brings the count to zero. Got any more? (Oddly enough, this list doesn't include any of your suggestions.)

This for a country that had no army before WWII.

LOL. Seeing nonsense like this modded up to +5 really turns me off to reading slashdot comments anymore. Metamods, are you reading this?

Re:Respect

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah right....ok, how many new countries have we annexed in the past couple of decades...go ahead...I'm waiting.

How about bombed instead of annexed?

List of countries the USA has bombed since the end of World War II

• China 1945-46
• Korea 1950-53
• China 1950-53
• Guatemala 1954
• Indonesia 1958
• Cuba 1959-60
• Guatemala 1960
• Belgian Congo 1964
• Guatemala 1964
• Dominican Republic 1965-66
• Peru 1965
• Laos 1964-73
• Vietnam 1961-73
• Cambodia 1969-70
• Guatemala 1967-69
• Lebanon 1982-84
• Grenada 1983-84
• Libya 1986
• El Salvador 1981-92
• Nicaragua 1981-90
• Libya 1986
• Iran 1987-88
• Libya 1989
• Panama 1989-90
• Iraq 1991-2002
• Kuwait 1991
• Somalia 1992-94
• Croatia 1994 (of Serbs at Krajina)
• Bosnia 1995
• Iran 1998 (airliner)
• Sudan 1998
• Afghanistan 1998
• Yugoslavia 1999
• Afghanistan 2001-02

List taken from http://www.btinternet.com/~davidbeaumont/msf/listbombed.html

Re:Respect

[davolfman]

All of them? We don't do military conquest anymore, only economic ones.

Re:Respect

[Anonymous Coward]

So how did we fight world war one? How did we fight the civil war? How did we fight all those wars before then?

By drafting civilians into a temporary army for a specific war, as opposed to hiring them for a government career in a standing army.

Re:Respect

[Steauengeglase]

"Respect. No nation treats countries without nukes with the same kind of respect as they do otherwise."

Fixed.

This isn't a phenomenon that only occurs with the bad, big, evil United States. Look at India and Pakistan after obtaining nuclear weapons. Kashmir doesn't seem to be worth more than a few sappers these days. For all of its drawbacks, M.A.D. has, at least for the time, worked.

Re:Respect

[Paul Jakma]

Actually, I think North Korea wasn't ignored - they got extra aid as a result of their successful nuke programme (iirc).

Re:Respect

[EastCoastSurfer]

For example our bases in Japan are there for defensive purposes and were used for reconstruction of Japan after the war, same with Germany.

Also, at the time our bases were put in Japan it was in order to keep China happy. At the time everyone in the region was terrified of a Japan with a large military. In order to have Japan not rebuild a significant military we had to promise to defend them. This in turn kept China mostly happy.

The other option was to make Japan a state. Something the US rarely has done after defeating someone in a war. In fact the US generally goes out of it's way to give the country back to the people.

Re:Respect

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me fix that for you...

US: "Iraq, you have WMDs and must permit inspections."
Iraq (to US): "No we don't, so stay out!"
Iraq (to Iran): "Yes, we do, so stay out!"
Iraq (to UN): "We are evicting your WMD inspectors!"
[Iraq is invaded]

US (to China): "Can we invade the buffer between your army and ours?"
China (to US): "No!"
North Korea: "Pay attention to me!"
[North Korea is ignored]

Re:Respect

[Anonymous Coward]

hmmm, did you miss your history classes?
Imperialism is not a system based on conquer and occupy foreign land, but actually a system that install local puppet governments (Colombia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Ukraine, Georgia, just to name a few...) and control their economies so the Imperialist country can ship back home the local controlled countries' production at very cheap prices.
Basically what the US has been doing since forever...
The definition you using for Imperialism is the one from the Civi games, and if you are an American geek, being your country famous for your ignorance and pathetic cowboy mentality, that is probably all you got close to any world history...

Re:Respect

[rhakka]

right. the 'local people' set up a new government. We routinely enter other countries... often orchestrating the coup in the first place... so "local people" can be completely free. We have no stake in the governments that arise, of course. Just the "local people" rising up to freedom from our kind, benevolent hand.

right?

Re:Respect

[_Sprocket_]

There was still a standing army with career military. That was the framework on which to hang the mass of drafted civilians to form a army at war.

Of course, that was a different era. Today's military is nothing like the conscripts of the past. And that was before WWII changed a lot of outlook towards whether isolationism is viable (its an ongoing debate throughout the centuries).

Re:Respect

[gtall]

Yeah, you're right, with the U.S. trade imbalances over the last umpteen years, what nerve of us to open our markets and buy all that stuff. And guess what happens when we stop buying the rest of the world's stuff? The current economic meltdown. That's some definition of imperialism, ya got there, son.

Gerry

Re:Respect

[neumayr]

Also, a lot of them are holdovers from the cold war in which we prevented the soviets from taking over Europe. Or do all you Europeans want to be praising the soviet motherland?

You're making it sound like the American military presence in Western Europe during the Cold War sound was a purely altruistic act.
Nah, that can't be right. After all, you most likely do live in a country with a decent pulic school system, and naturally you paid attention in history class... right?

Re:Respect

[FauxPasIII]

> Iraq (to UN): "We are evicting your WMD inspectors!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxdKlIZVDTQ

6m16s.

Who was he telling to leave??

Re:Respect

[BlueStrat]

Yeah right....ok, how many new countries have we annexed in the past couple of decades

Nicaraugua, Panama,

If those have been annexed and are now States, why didn't we see their election results on TV this election? Did they vote for Obama or McCain?

Oh, that's right. They aren't states. We aren't even occupying them. You just have nothing to back up your point, and so spew non sequiturs.

03 the CIA tried to overthrow Chavez.

How many US troops did the CIA invade with? Oh, that's right. None. They simply helped groups more friendly to the US in an effort to influence politics there. Sort of like if China were to give large amounts of money to Democrats to influence US elections and policies. Or if Russia were to knowingly and deliberately supply arms and funding to kill US troops in an active conflict. Not that *that* would ever happen, no sir!

The US has 186 military bases in 150 countries.

Gee, then we're doing well! How many bases do other countries like Russia and China have in other countries around the world? Or is that different? Do you think they don't have more bases and haven't annexed more territory because they wouldn't if they could?

Go watch the documentary "Why we fight" It's a great eye opener on the American military culture. Its on youtube and archive.org.

Oh noes! You mean to tell me when the people of another country are freed from oppression & poverty and enter into open trade with the world, the US gets a piece of the opportunities for trade along with all the other nations that trade in the world markets (and that typically didn't help or actively opposed that very action) after sacrificing US blood and treasure? How horrible! Everyone in the whole world should be equally poor and equally oppressed. It's only fair.

I do agree that the corruption and bilking of taxpayers for payoffs and all the other corruption involved in military contracts of all sorts is criminal. The US isn't perfect and has gotten itself involved in situations where it might have been best to choose another path. Hindsight is 20/20 however.

That being said, I don't feel the US should feel guilty at all for being the most powerful nation on the planet either economically or militarily, although we are in imminent danger of losing that status. Every other nation on the planet is striving for that position and is more than willing to go much, much further than the US is and has in that pursuit.

The world is not a friendly place. Every single nation throughout history that has achieved "most powerful" status has done very bad things, far greater than the US has in its' history. The world *will* be dominated by *someone*. Which nation do you think would be the best to have dominate the world with its' policies and military power? China? Russia? Iran? N. Korea?

I shudder to think of a world dominated by the policies and military might of any of those nations. If you live long enough to see it happen, you'll be praying for a return to the "good old days" of US might. But not too loudly. Otherwise your family may get an unexpected bill for a bullet. Or a few micrograms of polonium.

If there is ever a time when all people of every nation everywhere become saints without greed, ambition, or hunger for power and everyone plays nice, it is so far in the future and require such a dramatic change to the entire species as to be disconnected from reality to treat it as nearly-there, right around the corner...if only the bad old US would lay down it's arms and stop making countries like Iran, China, and Russia mad by refusing to roll over and play dead.

On-topic now:

The news that Iran now has a rocket capable of achieving escape velocity coupled with their ambition to have nuclear capability should worry every thinking person on the planet. Someone in a post above said in effect; "But they don't have the tech to accurately-target a missile to a specific city.". I think they'd be happy with a nuclear bomb exp

Re:Respect

[halber_mensch]

No army before WW2 eh? So how did we fight world war one? How did we fight the civil war? How did we fight all those wars before then? We had a policy to stay out of European affairs but we damn sure had an army. We changed that policy after being dragged into two world wars and seeing the tragic loss of life they caused. Sure, we do have a lot of bases worldwide but many of them are because of defensive treaties. For example our bases in Japan are there for defensive purposes and were used for reconstruction of Japan after the war, same with Germany. Also, a lot of them are holdovers from the cold war in which we prevented the soviets from taking over Europe. Or do all you Europeans want to be praising the soviet motherland?

What gp meant was we had no large standing army. At the end of each conflict before the Second World War, units were disbanded back to a peacetime force level. After the Second World War we did not continue this routine, but built up forces in Europe and Asia to maintain deterrence against the Soviets - even though we were in peacetime. Eisenhower had the foresight to warn against the rising Military-Industrial complex forming in the US, but we didn't care because the Commies were going to come get us in our sleep and we had to be ready. Since the Soviets don't exist to produce that fear anymore, we had to scramble for something else to hang on to. Towelheads and terrorists are now the reason for a large standing army and continuous military operations to feed the machine. And they're all going to get nukes and make us all Muslims and kill us. Thus we extend our military influence further abroad. Whether we claim to own the territories we are in or not is irrelevant, we have military presence that allows us to influence other nations to our will. Do me a favor and try to point out the nearest foreign military base on US soil. When your military is extended throughout the world but the rest of the world is not extended in your own nation, you are an empire, whether you have territorial claims or not.

Re:Respect

[Anonymous Coward]

"...it isn't like we rule other countries."

You dumbass. I live in the UK where for no reason obvious to most of the citizens here we still have a couple of dozen US military and intelligence bases. Our independent nuclear deterrent is manufactured in the US and we depend on the US for maintenance of those arms.

Many of our senior politicians studied or worked in the US. It's no accident that both Brown and Blair spent years over there.

That's just the UK. The US has armed forces through Europe, and around the world, more troops in more countries than any other nation. They are deployed around the edge of Russia and it is mark of the stupidity of you and others like you that you cannot see how that might just be a tad provocative.

The senior executives and politicians around the new European countries reek of US influence. Many of them lived and worked in the US before taking over the country they now live in.

The largest US embassy in the world is now located in Baghdad - larger than a small town - and the crooks you handed the country over to are ready for their orders. It took the deaths of several hundred thousand civilians to achieve it, but Iraq has been turned into a servant state. Just watch Obama take advantage of it now the bad man has gone.

I have met many wonderful Americans, but God save us from your military and your government.

Re:Respect

[ROU Nuisance Value]

No army before WW2 eh? So how did we fight world war one? How did we fight the civil war? How did we fight all those wars before then?

Oh gosh, you're so clever! Got him there, dintcha? The answer to your boobish rhetorical questions, in every case, is "by raising an army". Grandparent clearly meant a standing army; the US has a rule against maintaining standing armies in peacetime, remember? Of course, there hasn't *been* any peactime since WW2, so (much like our laws about torture) we don't follow that rule anymore.

Re:Respect

[wurble]

To say we had no army is a gross exaggeration. Prior to World War 1, we had a very small standing army, but we had a standing army nonetheless. The first peacetime draft occurred before America got into the war.

The United States was more blatantly imperialistic in the 1800s than it is currently. Manifest Destiny is an example of that. However you are right in that we are just as imperialistic now as we ever were. The difference is mostly in PR. We no longer take over territories outright, add new states, or absorb entire nations. We do however meddle in the affairs of other nations behind the scenes to ensure that those in power have our best interests at heart. In some cases, this goes to such an extreme that the ruling party/people are actually just puppets of the US government. In some cases in order to achieve these goals, military action is taken. In others, financial aid given to a rebellion or coup. And in some cases, it's just a case of rigging an election or 10.

In some cases, US interests have gone counter to the interests of the people of the nations we seek to control. The US backing the Shah of Iran is a good example of that. The US support of Batista's government in Cuba is another good example. The US's refusal to allow Democratic elections in Vietnam in the 1950s is another good example.

So while the US Government's official position may be to always claim that they support democracy, the reality is far different. Nor is it consistent. In some cases, the US will support a particular government or group believing it to be in the interest of national security. In other cases, it is simply to ensure lucrative business deals for US based businesses. Unfortunately, there isn't a surefire way to know what justification was used when. Attempting to ascertain which justification is used when is, of course, the source of many an argument.

Re:Respect

[Anonymous Coward]

Iraq (to UN): "We are evicting your WMD inspectors!"

Really? When exactly did this happen, in the lead up to the last invasion? UN inspectors were in Iraq only days before the US invaded and only left because the UN told them to get the hell out before the US started dropping high-explosives on their heads. Hans Blix was telling the UN Security Council flat out that Iraq was complying with the inspections and essentially pleaded for more time to complete the inspections before the US decided that Iraq had WMD. The US ignored all of that and invaded anyway.

Some people have fucking short memories.

Re:Respect

[wall0159]

I am not writing this post to bash the US.

Having said that, there are actions that the US took in the 20th century that ought to be condemned. Could you call it "imperialism"? That might be a bit of a stretch, but I think one could certainly argue that the US used military means to interfere with the politics of other countries to the benefit of the US and without concern for the other country's citizens.

Sure, plenty of countries do plenty of terrible things and I think they should be criticised too -- but be careful if you are defending the US just because it is _your_ country.

Re:Respect

[ScentCone]

Hans Blix was telling the UN Security Council flat out that Iraq was complying...

Would this be the same Hans Blix who couldn't get inspectors, ever, into many areas he wanted to inspect? The same Hans Blix who expressed shock - shock! - at the discovery that Saddam was taking UN oil-for-food money and using it for anything but feeding his people, and especially for doing things like buying and building long range missiles, right up until the invasion? People with deliberately, rhetorically selective memory shouldn't bitch about anyone else's short memory.

Re:Respect

[Schemat1c]

Of course that's because you're a total coward : you only complain if the side you're madly blabbering about doesn't attack you back.

Geez, another brainwashed Fox clone. Go back to the TV and leave us alone you robot.

Re:Respect

[Mr. Slippery]

The other option was to make Japan a state. Something the US rarely has done after defeating someone in a war.

Except, you know, all that territory we took from Indian nations. And from Mexico. And from the Kingdom of Hawaii, though that was covert activity backed up by U.S. military forces rather than all-out war.

But you don't have to make an area a state: you can make it a U.S. territory, like we did in the Philippines, though we decided they were more trouble then they were worth. We still have the territories of Guam, Puerto Rico, and the Mariana Islands.

Generally, though, we're preferred the neocolonial approach: you can run your own affairs so long as your governance is compatible with U.S. economic interests. You get in the way, you get toppled. A lot less trouble than running things directly.

Re:Respect

[dbcad7]

and especially for doing things like buying and building long range missiles, right up until the invasion?

We were either really really good at destroying everything during the invasion, or perhaps this is like all the other things we said they had.

You know, I was doing the google thing to kind of compare the Presidential inaugural speeches of Bush and Obama.. I was not looking for any more "conspiracy theories", kind of hope that's all behind us.. But what I found was that in Bush's inaugural speech he was already laying the groundwork of going after WMD's because he said then, before 911, that he was going to go after them.. So this newbie (at the time) President, with no "faulty" intelligence to blame, had already decided that he was going to invade Iraq...If you believe for a second, that Iraq was any kind of threat, you'll believe anything.

The previous administration has also painted this picture of Iran, in hopes to do the same things there.. but let me tell you.. I am more worried about Pakistan (our supposed allies) than I am Iran.. and Pakistan HAS nukes.

Re:Respect

[ScentCone]

So this newbie (at the time) President, with no "faulty" intelligence to blame, had already decided...

Were you paying attention to the eventually "non-newbie" guy who held the office for eight years before Bush? He repeatedly said that Iraq's WMDs and missile programs were a grave threat. Not the possibility of them, not the if-we-find-them-they-might-be, but the existence of them - including their demostrated use against thousands of people in the north of the country, and the huge stockpiles of them seen and recorded by inspectors following the Kuwait invasion and spanking episode. Clinton even launched cruise missiles into Iraq with the intention of destroying a facility that he was convinced (by the same CIA upon which Bush was relying as he took office, run by people that Clinton put there) was making WMDs.

As for Bush "painting a picture" of Iran... are you not listening when the head of every government in Europe describes it the same way? When Obama - now in receipt of the same intelligence that Bush looked at every day for years - is now saying the same thing?

Re:Respect

[bckrispi]

Also, at the time our bases were put in Japan it was in order to keep China happy. At the time everyone in the region was terrified of a Japan with a large military. In order to have Japan not rebuild a significant military we had to promise to defend them. This in turn kept China mostly happy.

No, it was the opposite. We wanted to keep the newly minted Chinese Red Army out of Japan. The Chinese had no problem fighting proxy wars with us (Korea), but they weren't about to invade a country directly that was under our protection. Japan was our Eastern flank in the Cold War.

Re:Respect

[Fluffeh]

We don't do military conquest anymore, only economic ones.

How is that working out for you?

CNN citing U.S. officials good enough?

[denzacar]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/02/03/iran.satellite/index.html [cnn.com]

The United States has confirmed that Iran launched a low-earth orbit satellite on Monday night, two U.S. officials told CNN's Barbara Starr.
There were no indications of any weapons activity on the two-stage rocket, although the rocket is capable of launching long-range weapons, the officials said.

Other terrorist organizations

[hotsauce]

They also constantly invade their neighbors with other religious terrorist organizations they fund: settlers, Mossad and IDF.

Oh, wait, that's Israel, and they have a huge lobby here. Nevermind, strike that.

Rocket scientists

[sjbe]

It's not a very difficult engineering problem.

Riiiight... That's why the term "rocket scientist" is used as a synonym for intelligence - because the engineering is so easy anyone can do it...

Oh wait, it requires expertise in (per wikipedia) fluid mechanics, structural mechanics, orbital mechanics, flight dynamics, physics, mathematics, control engineering, materials science, aeroelasticity, avionics, reliability engineering, noise control, and flight testing among other domains. Yeah, real easy.

Re:Rocket scientists

[James_Duncan8181]

"Riiiight... That's why the term "rocket scientist" is used as a synonym for intelligence - because the engineering is so easy anyone can do it...

Oh wait, it requires expertise in (per wikipedia) fluid mechanics, structural mechanics, orbital mechanics, flight dynamics, physics, mathematics, control engineering, materials science, aeroelasticity, avionics, reliability engineering, noise control, and flight testing among other domains. Yeah, real easy."

When I said that it was only the autopilot that one could be assuming was a hard barrier to an IBCM, the closely attentive observer will clearly read this in the context that Iran, in successfully launching a satellite, has already demonstrated competence at everything you list above. That leaves the autopilot to bring it down (since going up to a stable orbit clearly worked). So I'm not sure why you think the additional work is particularly hard for the same nation state's scientists that originally put the satellite up.

Re:Rocket scientists

[jedidiah]

...plus OUR "rocket scientists" have already done all of the hard
work. 99% of the relevant necessary information is probably
available from the USPTO and various academic journals.

HELL, our entire stealth program is based on an article from a
Russian academic paper from the 60s.

Ooops, yes it would seem they made it

[Bearhouse]

Was being lazy...after digging a little

"Two objects from the launch, likely the Omid satellite and part of its booster, are circling Earth in oval-shaped orbits.

The orbits range in altitude from low points of 153 miles to high points of 235 miles and 273 miles. The orbital inclination is 55.5 degrees, according to U.S. military tracking data."

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/sfn-090203-iran-satellite-launch.html

Wrong.

[tjstork]

Why mess with a launch and guidance system able to withstand launch and reentry stresses when you could just build a Fat Man and put it in the back of a van?

Because the missile is better.

It doesn't take more than a half an hour to hit the USA. It doesn't have any risks in transportation. You can't practically recall a ballistic missile after it has been launched. You can launch a missile ad-hoc, and finally, a missile launched high above the USA fries all of our electrical shit. Fatman in the truck can't do any of that.

The smuggled weapon in the back of the truck, on the other hand, requires every single person on the way to not notice, or actively participate in the delivery of the weapon. And, it's less effective militarily.

The thing about container ships, is that there are not that many of them, as they are so big these days, that stopping them and tracking them is actually pretty practical. You can monitor a ship as its sailing all the way from Iran or an Arabian port all the way to the USA. You can fly geiger counters over it and around it to look for neutrons coming out of it. There's just way more risk for the delivery and its not a good deterrent.

Defense is not the solution, and security theater is just a waste

If defense is not the solution, then why preach birth control? Defense doesn't solve everything, but it does increase the probability of failure to an attacker, so that he or she won't attack, and also reduces the likelihood of the attacker of spreading that attack to other parties. To put it another way, if Hitler had been stopped in France, do you think he still invades Russia?

"monotheism, peace and justice"

[wiredog]

From The Beeb: Mr Ahmadinejad said the satellite was launched to spread "monotheism, peace and justice" in the world.

Interesting. I wonder how the polytheist countries feel about this?

Re:"monotheism, peace and justice"

[DanJ_UK]

I have a question actually regarding "Tehran denies that claim and says its nuclear ambitions are limited to the production of energy."

Is anyone else equally concerned at the thought of a nation developing it's own nuclear power projects without assistance from nations / specialists that have learnt from previous mistakes? (Chernobyl, TMI et al)

yes, they are

[unity100]

hezboullah and hamas kill lebanese and palestinians regularly. after israel's last response in gazza, 150 palestinians who supported fatah were gathered and tortured. numerous were killed, or maimed by guns as an 'example'. it doesnt matter who are they fighting - a terrorist organization has a life of its own. its basically a fascist level rigid hierarchy ideological organization

suspicion of iran

[circletimessquare]

has nothing to do with being pro-israel, or pro-western, or anti-muslim

suspicion of iran has to do with it being a theocracy. doesn't matter that it is a muslim or christian theocracy, or whether it is located in the middle east, or south america, or antarctica. the issue is it being a theocracy. begnning of valid concern about iran, end of valid concern about iran

if someone is concerned about iran, it very well could be for mindless ethnocentrism, religious bigotry, or tibal chest thumping reasons. it is very easy to be concerned about iran for the lowest and most disgraceful reasons

but someone can also be concerned about iran simply from a strictly globalist, humanist, universal, highminded reason:

a theocracy is a very bad thing

why?

we are talking about a government that has, ensconced in its constituion, a bunch of grumpy old men, who are above all law or ability to be questioned, who act in the name of god, and have a monopoly on interpretting the will of god, according to law. that doesn't bother you?

power in iran is not ahmadinejad. power is in the ayatollahs. ahmadinejad is a figurehead. he does not hold the final power. the ayatollahs can freely choose to disavow any candidate form office, and have done so exorbitantly in past elections to disallow popular reform candidates from running

would you consider it a problem if the pope could, without any ability to question or veto his decision, walk into the elections in germany, or the usa, or great britain, and simply cherry pick the candidates he wants to run?

again, the problem is not islam. the problem is not the middle east. the problem is not being anti-israeli. the problem is not being anti-western. all of these instincts are perfectly valid and defensible world views

the problem is with iran being a THEOCRACY. on that issue alone, is suspicion of iran perfectly valid, from either a pro-western or anti-western point of view

pay attention to the below text... this government is going to get a nuclear warhead:

http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/Government/constitution-1.html

The Islamic Republic is a system based on belief in:
1.the One God (as stated in the phrase "There is no god except Allah"), His exclusive sovereignty and the right to legislate, and the necessity of submission to His commands;
2.Divine revelation and its fundamental role in setting forth the laws;
3.the return to God in the Hereafter, and the constructive role of this belief in the course of man's ascent towards God;
4.the justice of God in creation and legislation;
5.continuous leadership (imamah) and perpetual guidance, and its fundamental role in ensuring the uninterrupted process of the revolution of Islam;
6.the exalted dignity and value of man, and his freedom coupled with responsibility before God

so these grumpy old men, with a monopoly on intepretting what the will of god is, are about to get control over a nuclear warhead

and people wish to say that if you are concerned about this, you must be some brain dead tribal pro-western muslim hater?

really?

Re:suspicion of iran

[RogueWarrior65]

I feel the need to quote "The Abyss"

Look, he's operating on his own,
he's cut off from his chain of command,
he's showing signs of pressure-induced psychosis...
and he's got a nuclear weapon.

Re:suspicion of iran

[Quiet_Desperation]

It's worse, actually. The psychosis is religion induced, and it *IS* the chain of command.

Re:Wake up from what?

[cgenman]

Let's wake up from the idea that our technological progress was related to our inherent superior american-ness, and not our now-defunct levels of education and reserch investments.

In the first case, only we can lead. But if anyone can have brilliant humans simply by hard work and a real commitment to education, and we're not doing that anymore, then our continued access to Gossip Girl is in trouble.

Oblig: Missile Guidance

[scorp1us]

For those of us that worked in the Defense Industry, this is a classic. For those that are new, you can probably appreciate this.

This WAV is from a military training video on missile guidance.

Re:Racist Piece Of Garbage

[MadKeithV]

Imagine the reaction if Bush had gone on TV every few days promising to wipe Iran off the map.

As an outside observer, I think putting Iran in the "axis of evil" was pretty close. Couple that with the general perception that the USA would just look away if Israel would take military action against Iran, and I think any sane Iranian would worry that sooner or later one of the two would try something.
Of course, Ahmedinejad's spouting off at any possible opportunity that Israel should be wiped off the map can only increase the likelihood of the USA or Israel taking action, for exactly the same reasons that Iran is trying to build up some muscle.
The only thing that's certain is that Iran won't back down until they do have nukes, because only at that point will tensions be equal on both sides, where they both have equal amounts to lose.
Unless Iran or Israel go all religious-fanatic over it, actually believing that their respective God gives them the upper hand. And I think *that's* what we all should fear the most.

Engineering is not a sub domain of math

[sjbe]

That list is so redudant, A) every thing on the list is a subset of mathematics

I am an engineer and if you think engineering is nothing more than a subset of mathematics you don't understand engineering. There are many aspects to engineering that have nothing whatsoever to do with mathematics. With a little poetic license math could rightly be called the language of engineering but that does not make engineering a sub domain of mathematics. Math is indispensable to the study and practice of science and engineering but don't ever confuse the the tool with the discipline.

Re:Engineering is not a sub domain of math

[sjbe]

My point was just that it's redundant saying it requires engineering AND mathematics, you can't possibly be an engineer without knowing maths.

Sure you can. Not a very good engineer perhaps but it certainly is possible to do real engineering without math and in fact it happens all the time. I can design and create all sorts of things without using so much as a single equation and that is real engineering. Not very sophisticated granted but engineering nonetheless. Engineering is applied science, not applied mathematics. Math can help a lot but isn't always required.

Re:Racist Piece Of Garbage

[OeLeWaPpErKe]

Euhm ? The Iran-Iraq war ? The many incursions into Afghanistan ? The Pakistan border issues ? The hezbollah-Israel war ? The hamas-Israel war ?

All these were started by Iran. In the last 30 years no less.

Which war, exactly, was started by Israel ? It was involved in many wars, but always acted in self-defense. All the wars Israel was involved in were wars that had as an explicit goal to exterminate all Jews.

In other words, they were all racist wars directed against Jews, and Jews always won when they fought.

And they always restrained their response. They were multiple times in a position to take over Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon, and they never did.

You're either stupid or a racist lyer. Not that it matters.

Obligatory 300 reference

[0xdeadbeef]

Ahmadinejad went on to say "Our satellites will block out the sun."

Re:Racist Piece Of Garbage

[Eunuchswear]

when they keep threatening to commit genocide on a bi-weekly basis

[Citation needed].

Re:Racist Piece Of Garbage

[c6gunner]

As an outside observer, I think putting Iran in the "axis of evil" was pretty close.

WTF? Are you serious? No offense man, but that's retarded. You may as well say that Winston Churchills denouncements of the Nazis were equivalent to Hitlers genocidal rants. There's simply no comparison. In order to confuse the two you either need to be profoundly ignorant, or have some sort of ideological bias.

Unless Iran or Israel go all religious-fanatic over it, actually believing that their respective God gives them the upper hand. And I think *that's* what we all should fear the most.

On that we can definitely agree. Although I think it's a bit unfair to imply that both of those nations are equally fanatical about their religions. Both sides have their share of zealots, but in Israel they tend to be poorly represented in government whereas in Iran they ARE the government.

Re:Racist Piece Of Garbage

[mR.bRiGhTsId3]

Iran does more than spout off. Where do you think all those missiles that have been hitting Israel for the last few years have been coming from. For all intents and purposes, they are already fighting a proxy war with the nation they've promised to obliterate.

Your take on the contras is hilarious

[Nicolas MONNET]

Hilariously disgusting. The Sandinistas were democratically elected. The contras are generally acknowledged as "death squads," and not just by "liberals" in MS.

Furthermore the US has been sentenced to pay $1 billion by the International Court of Justice in restitution, which it refuses to pay.

Stick that right wing murderous propaganda up yours.

Re:Your take on the contras is hilarious

[BlueStrat]

Hilariously disgusting. The Sandinistas were democratically elected.

Yes, they were elected. My Nicaraguan friend that lived there at the time remembers it well.

He told me how the Sandinista troops, dressed in the nice new uniforms and carrying the brand-new Soviet-made AK47's that were both fresh off the boat from Cuba came to his village and rounded everyone up and herded them to where they had the ballot boxes set up, and carefully watched as each person put their ballot in the "correct" box. The one they actually took with them instead of the other that they threw in the fire of his neighbors' house. His neighbor that put his ballot in the "not-correct" box. Too bad about the mans' family inside.

The contras are generally acknowledged as "death squads,"...

Well, history is (re)written by the victors, after all.

Furthermore the US has been sentenced to pay $1 billion by the International Court of Justice in restitution, which it refuses to pay.

The same "International Court of Justice" populated by those who view the US & its' allies as an impediment to their own very questionable agendas?

Stick that right wing murderous propaganda up yours

Oooh, I love it when you talk dirty! You sure got a purty mouth!

Strat

i'm scared of iran

[circletimessquare]

there is this common belief that any motivation based on fear is wrong. but there really is nothing wrong with the emotion of fear. fear keeps you alive. fear based on IRRATIONAL beliefs is of course wrong. but my fear of iran is based on a RATIONAL determination: a theocracy with nuclear weapons is the last thing this world needs

seriously, if you are not scared of a theocracy of nuclear weapons, what are you scared of? i would go so far as to say that if you are not scared of a theocracy with nukes, there is something wrong with you

this doesn't validate all of the irrational fears people have in this world. but even for the most rational of persons, there exists a subset of considerations for which the emotion of fear is a completely valid response

there is something very wrong with someone who is afraid of irrational things. equally so, there is something very wrong with someone isn't afraid of anything. it's like not feeling pain: at first glance, not feeling any pain seems to have nothing but upside. until you consider the scenarios of picking up a hot skillet, or cutting yourself with a chainsaw: pain keeps you alive. likewise, having no fear seems like a good thing, until you consider all of the scenarios where fear keeps you alive

someone who goes through life afraid a lion is going to jump out of the shadows at any moment and attack them is not defensible. but being afraid when an actual genuine lion is actually jumping out at you is perfectly appropriate, valid, and preferable

the emotion of fear is not the problem, fear of irrational things is the problem, and the two concepts are different

Re:i'm scared of iran

[cdrguru]

I'm scared if Iran as well. I'm not sure it is the "theocracy" part that is the root of my concern. I'd say it is more like the fact their leaders would think nothing of nuking Israel even if it meant the deaths of 3/4ths of their populations.

MAD doesn't apply when the leaders don't give a crap about the people under them. Our entire strategy for keeping leaders with nuclear weapons in check is the utter certainty that their countries would suffer terrible retribution. I don't believe Iran is affected by this at all. I am equally unsure that North Korea's leaders care about the civilian population. It isn't like in either case there is a chance the civilian population is going to rise up in outrage and displace their government.

The fact that the religion behind the Iranian leaders preaches "death to infidels" isn't exactly comforting but without nuclear weapons they don't stand a chance of implementing that plan. And they seem to know it.

War as a game? for you maybe

[fantomas]

Really, grow up. War isn't a game.

I think it is maybe perceived more so by the USA as the majority of their citizens have not experienced a modern war on their own mainland territory. For many people in other countries the experience of war is more direct and people are less likely to be so gung-ho about it. Mainland USA was untouched in the major conflicts of the twentieth century. While terrible events were unfolding the lights were on in Main Street, small town America and you could walk down that street eating ice cream as if nothing was happening. I honestly believe this has given Americans a profoundly different idea of what a war is from the majority of the rest of the world.

Don't talk lightly of wars, they are certainly not games.

The root of the problem is evident in your post

[delcielo]

This notion that we must intervene in any government we don't like is exactly why we're in the position we're in now with the Middle East.

We don't like Mossadeq, we intervene to overthrow him, despite his being democratically elected. Khomeini replaces our hand-picked Shah, so we support Saddam Hussein in his ridiculously unjust war against Iran.

This is the most obvious example; but we've been through this in a half-dozen South American countries as well. We have no sense of time in this country. We don't take the long view of anything, anything at all.

And by the way, I do remember the Cold War. I've done a duck and cover drill. I've been afraid of the Russians. We acted with more measure and reason when we worried about the killing the planet. As it is now, we'll do anything if it just involves killing regionally.

Re:(Total lack of) Respect

[cayenne8]

"There was a time when remarks such as above would be called "racism". In 2009, you can claim that over a billion people support "really imperialist expansionist murderous ideology" that causes "constant massacres"."

Racism?!?!?

Since when did islam become a race?

Speaking of times long forgotten, I long for the years back not so long ago when every conversation or argument that got someone riled up, didn't end up have the fucking race card played.

Texas

[krischik]

Ahmm - what about those 5 states you took from Mexico?

Bribed-Head-Of-States.

[krischik]

On dicovery channel I recently saw a report about one of our heads of state which had his election payed and fixed by the USA. No they did not fix the votes - the USA swamped us with advertising until we elected the Adenauer into office.

Pretty similar to what happened in Ukrania recently.

huh?

[circletimessquare]

"If Theocracies are so bad, why aren't you worried about Tibet?"

tibet as sovereign entity doesn't exist, and its theocratic structure has been outlawed by the chinese. but were tibet an independent theocracy with nukes, i would be equally worried about it as i am about iran. conversely, if iran were still a theocracy, but didn't have nukes, i wouldn't be nearly as worried about iran as i am

"Seriously, bigotry is the problem, not Theocracy"

this is like saying cancer is a problem, not heart attacks. they are both fatal problems

"While I think that there are better methods of administration, the types of democracy that we have in most western countries are not participatory nor representative... it is effectively a mediaocracy."

this is called self-disenfranchisement. your belief merely supports your own lack of accountability, and has no value when applied to the society you live in (assuming you live in a western country). you are projecting self-referential psychology like a teenager onto those aroud you. no, those around you are perfectly capable of believing and seeing the realit yof their vote mattering, and their opinion tyo be independent. this may not be true of you, but it is true of plenty in your society. i just voted for barack obama 3 months ago. where is my lack of participation or representation?

and what the heck is a "mediaocracy"? ultimate power rests in an editorial news room? a meaningless buzzword

in the west, i can choose to consume any media i like. this includes al jazeera or iran's mouthpiece, if i choose to. now, if i lived in iran, meanwhile, and i clicked on those links, and they pointed to the bbc or the new york times, i would be blocked, and perhaps even reported for unislamic activities, for not sticking with the governing parties official media. is that the "mediaocracy" you are talking about?

"Knowledge and culture sharing are a better solution that trying to stop nukes"

yes, and world war ii would have never happened if hitler and tojo were given hugs and kisses. pffft. man i need some of what you are smoking

"The whole clash of cultures idea is also patently absurd"

in some subsaharan cultures, they perform clitorectomies on female children. do you have a problem with that? congratulations, you are engaging in a clash of cultures

"it's clash of money and oil interests in the upper echelons of both so-called empires at the expense of their own peoples that is the real problem."

how did you get to work or school today? did you ride a car or bus? do you have a job or do you pay for school? in either case, you have money and oil interests. but you have this absurd idea that only the "upper echelons" are the ones gobbling up money and oil just because its cool in a hollywood bad guy sort of way. or, perhaps, governments are concerned with access to resources and the flow of capital, for the rightful reason of the well-being of their citizens. could that be it? nah...

"I, for one extend my hand of congratulations to the Iranian people and look very suspiciously at those who would tell them what to do/think/go to war over."

i agree with you 100%. i am glad you are finally ready to stand with me and condemn the ayatollahs and their constant war propagandizing of the iranian people

"Ditto applies to the American administration (and anyone else who is spineless enough not to sign the nuclear disarmament treaty),"

absolutely, we need to engage in nuclear disarmament. how does belief in that allow for iran getting nukes? iran should get nukes because the usa has them? ok, you can believe that if you want

but now you are expressing belief in nuclear proliferation. make up your mind, but you can't believe in nuclear disarmament and iran getting nukes at the same time. either you insist iran not get nukes and the usa get rid of them, or that the usa keep its nukes and iran get them too. but saying the usa

Re:Racist Piece Of Garbage

[Troed]

promising to wipe Iran off the map

Please don't spread myths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel#.22Wiped_off_the_map.22_or_.22Vanish_from_the_pages_of_time.22_translation

did you ever stop to consider

[circletimessquare]

that you are the propagandized one? that you are the one who is blind and prejudiced?

i went to great pains to validate my comments as neither pro-western nor anti-western, that the concerns i am raising are equally apparent in beijing, or moscow, or caracas, or toronto. i repeated this sentiment multiple times

and, completely tone deaf, all you can think about is my apparent western bias

really? what if i actually have no such bias in my words here? and the only bias is yours, your complete inability to appreciate my words as completely without regional favoritism

you may attack my concerns about theocracy from a universal global humanist level of concern, please, i welcome that sort of criticism

but you may not, if you wish to retain a grasp on any sort of intellectual coherence, attack me on my so-called phantom western bias, that you perceive in me, some sort of secret insight in to my thinking, when i am completely aware of the concept of regional bias, and went to great pains to scrub out of my comments. but you still see it there huh? you're some sort of paranoid schizophrenic secret code reader then?

there is no bias in my words. really. it was scrubbed of regional bias. it was said as an appeal to universal human concerns. get over YOUR bias, your inability to appreciate an intellectual point based on principles and absolutely free and clear of regional favoritism

They aren't idiots. Even Stalin needed a people.

[Chris Burke]

I'd say it is more like the fact their leaders would think nothing of nuking Israel even if it meant the deaths of 3/4ths of their populations.

MAD doesn't apply when the leaders don't give a crap about the people under them. Our entire strategy for keeping leaders with nuclear weapons in check is the utter certainty that their countries would suffer terrible retribution. I don't believe Iran is affected by this at all. I am equally unsure that North Korea's leaders care about the civilian population. It isn't like in either case there is a chance the civilian population is going to rise up in outrage and displace their government.

What is the point of attaining all of that power, only to have it all erased in a nuclear blast? Not caring about the people they rule is not at all the same as not caring if they have a people to rule at all! Do you think Stalin gave a flying rats ass about his people for their own sake? Ha, not a chance. He intentionally starved more than died in the Holocaust, and burned through more people on the Eastern Front than all the other Allies lost combined. And yet, we were able to count on MAD to keep him and his equally callous successors in check. Because while he didn't care at all about his people as such, he did care about the power they brought him. Having his country lain to waste would eliminate that power.

You can think of the leaders of Iran as similar. They aren't going to go through all the decades-long trouble of solidifying their control of the nation, staving off aggressive neighbors, jockeying with the U.S. and other international powers, in order to build the kind of industrialized nation that can actually build a nuclear deterrent, only to throw it all away by having the entire country bombed into oblivion in response to a nuclear attack. If one quarter of the people even survived, it would still be many decades more before they could return to similar levels of power, if they ever could recover at all. Sure, Israel may be gone, but that's hardly Iran's only enemy and those enemy's would find the post-nuclear-attack Iran an easy target.

Say whatever you want about them, the leaders of Iran are not dumb. If you said you thought they were blinded by religious zealotry, you'd be wrong but I'd at least understand why you think that. Why you think the Iranian leaders would "think nothing" of throwing away their entire power base and all the advantage they had struggled to gain by building nuclear weapons on a whim, I have no idea.

you don't have to like israel

[circletimessquare]

but germany's nonreligious ruling party is called the christian democrats, the usa with its separation of church and state starts with "in god we trust", despotic north korea is officially called the democratic people's republic, and ultracapitalist china is ruled by a communist party

all of which goes to show that surface symbolism has nothing to do with substantative reality

if you showed me how israeli candidates were first vetted by a rabbinical council, you'd have a point. but no, sorry, israel is not a theocracy

again, please, by all means, despie israel if you want to. but do it for real reasons, not made up ones

Re:you don't have to like israel

[Qrlx]

Since you mention candidates for office...

Israel did import a million Jews from Russia to ensure a few more decades of Jewish majority in their ostensibly democratic government.

Theocracy? Not as such... Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of Jewish settlers stream into the West Bank, towards the "substantive reality" manifest within "surface symbolism."

The difficulty in getting a (representatively diverse) rabbinical council to agree on anything is testament to the tolerance for diversity within Jewish opinion. In other words, it is not the theocracy, per se, which concerns us about Iran, it is the narrow-minded outlook of theocratic leadership.

Jimmy Carter and George W. Bush are both devout Christians...

For the record I oppose any religious state, be it symbolically or substantively so, largely on "slippery slope" grounds -- and I think Israel has slid a fair bit since her inception.

So what?

[Chicken_Kickers]

iran doesnt invade any country actively, but they invade them through the religious terorrist organizations they fund. hezbollah, hamas, ibda-c, numerous groups trying to invade pakistan, afghanistan are just a few.

much more annoying and dangerous.

So what? All it proves is that Iran has been playing the game intelligently, as opposed to the ham-fisted Israelis and Americans. This is how one plays the Great Game and Iran has thousands of years of history and experience to fall back on. They have masterfully benefited from your idiotic George Bush and should be admired because of this. The Iranian people are rightly proud of their heritage. I have had many Iranian science students at my University where I teach and they are adamant that they are not Arabs. They are Muslims, but they have their own history and cultural identity. With this launch, in my opinion, signals that it is now too late for Israel and her backers to staunch the re-emergence of Iran as a power in the Middle East, short of a long and bloody war that will not benefit both sides. A strong, nuclear Iran would actually bring balance back into the Middle East by moderating the excesses of the already nuclear armed Israelis. This is the real reason why Israel is so against a nuclear Iran. Not because Iran is a berserker country but because Israel will now have to tread more carefully in the region.