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Google Buys Finnish Paper Mill

raffnix writes "Today, Finland-based paper group Stora Enso has announced that Google is buying the buildings and most of the Summa Mill site, where production of paper was ceased last month, for approximately 40 million Euros ($51.7 million). Obviously the space is most likely going to serve as a data center, which has now also been confirmed by Reuters."

166 comments

  1. Media has it Wrong by AKAImBatman · · Score: 5, Funny

    Google is buying the buildings and most of the Summa Mill site [...] the space is most likely going to serve as a data center

    Shows what the media knows. Haven't they heard of GMail Paper? Here's the spiel from Google:

    Everyone loves Gmail. But not everyone loves email, or the digital era. What ever happened to stamps, filing cabinets, and the mailman? Well, you asked for it, and it's here. We're bringing it back.

    A New Button
    Now in Gmail, you can request a physical copy of any message with the click of a button, and we'll send it to you in the mail.

    Simplicity Squared
    Google will print all messages instantly and prepare them for delivery. Allow 2-4 business days for a parcel to arrive via post.

    Total Control
    A stack of Gmail Paper arrives in a box at your doorstep, and it's yours to keep forever. You can read it, sort it, search it, touch it. Or even move it to the trash--the real trash. (Recycling is encouraged.)

    Keep it Secret, Keep it Safe
    Google takes privacy very seriously. But once your email is physically in your hands, it's as secure as you want to make it.

    Is it free?
    Yes. The cost of postage is offset with the help of relevant, targeted, unobtrusive advertisements, which will appear on the back of your Gmail Paper prints in red, bold, 36 pt Helvetica. No pop-ups, no flashy animations--these are physically impossible in the paper medium.

    With Google's ad revenue suffering due to economic conditions, I imagine they need this new source of revenue very badly. For those who are curious, Wikipedia has a great article detailing the history of this new venture by Google.

    1. Re:Media has it Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
      While your post is informative and interesting, the Reuters article has a lot more than you do:

      "We are currently considering to build a data centre at this site," said Google spokesman Kay Oberbeck.

      And on top of that, from the Washington Post:

      An earlier (brutally honest) press release from Stora Enso reveals that the mill site was closed down because of "persistent losses in recent years and poor long-term profitability prospects" It continues: "Despite tremendous efforts by its employees, the mill cannot compete in today's and tomorrow's markets using expensive virgin wood fibre, much of which is imported".

      So you're arguing that because they need revenue, they bought a failing paper mill in an nonstrategic location (shipping all that paper to the states?! come on!) ... pretty weak argumant AKAImBatman.

    2. Re:Media has it Wrong by timeOday · · Score: 1

      Good grief, I think paper emails might be for real. This is horrible. Come on people, think of the trees. If you spend a few minutes learning how to use the archive and search functions on your mail program you'll realize how worthless printouts are. But I guess I'm preaching to the choir here.

    3. Re:Media has it Wrong by Alphager · · Score: 5, Informative

      It is neither relevant nor informative; it's funny.
      Gmail paper was the 2007 april's fool joke...

    4. Re:Media has it Wrong by arnott · · Score: 0

      You do realize that Google paper is April fool joke ?

    5. Re:Media has it Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      April joke

    6. Re:Media has it Wrong by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Informative? This is Google's April 1st joke from 2007.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google%27s_hoaxes#Gmail_Paper

      Read the personal quotes on the "More Info" page:

      "Now that I have Gmail Paper, I understand the difference between labels and folders. I had one message with two labels, but when I tried to stick the paper version into two filing cabinets at the same time, it just wouldnâ(TM)t go."

      "It's paper, plain and easy. I sometimes find myself wondering: what will Google think of next? Cardboard?"

      Bill K., Armchair Futurist

      But what about the environment?

      Not a problem. Gmail Paper is made out of 96% post-consumer organic soybean sputum, and thus, actually helps the environment. For every Gmail Paper we produce, the environment gets incrementally healthier.

    7. Re:Media has it Wrong by AKAImBatman · · Score: 1

      Of course it isn't! Didn't you read the Wikipedia article?!?! Obviously it's com-pletely seerious.

    8. Re:Media has it Wrong by Shrike82 · · Score: 1
      If anyone would like to actually click the Gmail paper link, you'll hopefully discover that this is some elaborate joke. From the page:

      " "Now that I have Gmail Paper, I understand the difference between labels and folders. I had one message with two labels, but when I tried to stick the paper version into two filing cabinets at the same time, it just wouldn't go."

      But what about the environment? Not a problem. Gmail Paper is made out of 96% post-consumer organic soybean sputum, and thus, actually helps the environment. For every Gmail Paper we produce, the environment gets incrementally healthier.

      Good to see people reading things properly...

      --
      You can advertise in this sig from as little as £99.99 a month!
    9. Re:Media has it Wrong by afidel · · Score: 1

      Some people have a requirement to keep certain documents for 7,10, or even 20+ years, digital isn't necessarily the best format to keep such documents.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    10. Re:Media has it Wrong by AKAImBatman · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Hey Mods! Don't you think modding a poor guy "Troll" just because he fell for a joke is a little harsh? Be kind, rewind*. (*Your moderation)

    11. Re:Media has it Wrong by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      They shut it down for a lack of wood fiber? They should just have planted 30 one-acre stands of Supertrees near by- one a year.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    12. Re:Media has it Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i thought they were going to use this mill because of their get an out of print book made service.

    13. Re:Media has it Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Phew... for a minute I thought the headline was a reference to google buying another Finnish paper mill called "Nokia" which owns the QT windowing system.

    14. Re:Media has it Wrong by camperdave · · Score: 2, Informative

      No pop-ups, no flashy animations--these are physically impossible in the paper medium.

      But... Pop-ups and flashy animations are physically possible in the paper medium

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    15. Re:Media has it Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you! --AKAIB

    16. Re:Media has it Wrong by The+FNP · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I mean this is /., where you get modded up for not reading TFA!

      --The FNP

    17. Re:Media has it Wrong by hajile78 · · Score: 1

      From the example of the US Government Google will now be printing it's own Money. GMoney

    18. Re:Media has it Wrong by slashdotmsiriv · · Score: 3, Funny

      One of my favorite parts of the joke was the testimonial:

      "Now that I have Gmail Paper, I understand the difference between labels and folders. I had one message with two labels, but when I tried to stick the paper version into two filing cabinets at the same time, it just wouldnâ(TM)t go."

      Mayumi M., Associate

    19. Re:Media has it Wrong by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Informative

      Informative? This is Google's April 1st joke from 2007.

      Allow me to inform you: Moderation is broken. Funny gives +1 to the article but not +1 to karma. So people have taken to moderating funny comments as informative or insightful, so that when you get moderated down as Overrated you aren't suffering a net karma loss.

      That or someone just got taken in, and so they deserve the karma point anyway. Let it go.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    20. Re:Media has it Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But what about the environment?

      Not a problem. Gmail Paper is made out of 96% post-consumer organic soybean sputum, and thus, actually helps the environment. For every Gmail Paper we produce, the environment gets incrementally healthier.

      Source:http://mail.google.com/mail/help/paper/more.html

    21. Re:Media has it Wrong by Sj0 · · Score: 1

      Almost all paper mills are failing. Every week brings news of another mill closing down, and it's been this way for years.

      I do agree it's a silly idea buying that mill for making paper, but let's not pretend the paper industry is healthy.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    22. Re:Media has it Wrong by pla · · Score: 1

      Some people have a requirement to keep certain documents for 7,10, or even 20+ years, digital isn't necessarily the best format to keep such documents.

      Not the best format? For keeping any substantial number of documents that long, you should consider digital the only format to use.

    23. Re:Media has it Wrong by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      Note to self: this post has not received enough replies stating how it should not have gotten an any Insightful moderation. Reply with another post to point out the same thing when you have time.

    24. Re:Media has it Wrong by mabhatter654 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      on the contrary, for legal purposes it would be better to clear your email inbox every 3 months and archive the emails involving SOX matters to another location... for a small business paper would be perfectly fine. What you DON'T want in SOX procedures is to have many locations of "stuff" out there on various backup tapes "just in case". If you have legal trouble they'll suddenly want EVERY backup tape you ever made as evidence.. you need to have a system that PROVES only specific locations have legal documents. And paper is a good format... again, if you show a lawyer neat boxes of paper they'll take over kinkos and make a copy... show them a box of backup tapes and the law freaks out.

    25. Re:Media has it Wrong by timeOday · · Score: 1

      April joke

      Oh, good. I keep hearing anecdotes about paper usage actually going up with increased paper usage, and I find it hard to understand. Where I work, everything is driven by email and web apps - and this is (quasi)-government work, not a silicon valley startup. Mainly I print something when I want to guilt myself into getting around to reading it by letting it sit on my desk making a mess, but it doesn't work.

    26. Re:Media has it Wrong by afidel · · Score: 1

      Yes, anyone who's ever done an research on long term record retention realizes that the problems involved in physically storing digital records long term are significant as is format selection. On the other hand the retention of physical paper records is well understood and mechanically simple, the only basic requirement being low acid paper (and even that might not be needed for 7-10 year retention).

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    27. Re:Media has it Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "nokia" is not a paper mill, its a rubberboot factory! Every has owned a pair of Kontio rubberboots during his/her life!

      http://www.nokianfootwear.fi/img/Kontio_Classic.jpg

    28. Re:Media has it Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      paper usage actually going up with increased paper usage

      How is this confusing?

    29. Re:Media has it Wrong by rts008 · · Score: 1

      Having lived near a paper mill before, all I can say at this point is...I, for one welcome our new paperless(and less stinky) Overlords!!!
      All Hail google!!!(if they don't resume making paper!)

      --
      Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
    30. Re:Media has it Wrong by rts008 · · Score: 1

      ...for a small business paper would be perfectly fine...

      Yeah, only think of yourself!
      Nevermind that there is a whole world out there that *you* are only an insignificant part of.

      Let the rest of us/the world know what you need.

      If you have legal trouble they'll suddenly want EVERY backup tape you ever made as evidence..you need to have a system that PROVES only specific locations have legal documents

      Yes, pick and choose...ignore the real facts-SpinDoctor[tm] To the rescue!!!

      If it can't be released to the world/internets as is, then it is spin-doctored FUD. Period. Get over yourself. Really.

      Anything otherwise is just self-centered FUD.

      Stupid git!

      --
      Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
  2. So much for do no evil by squoozer · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I hear that this new data centre will be run on trees that are harvested in a non-sustainable way and any small furry animals they find while chopping the trees now (especially squirrels).

    --
    I used to have a better sig but it broke.
    1. Re:So much for do no evil by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      No - they purchased that site just to be able to put up the sign "Ei saa peittää" on something.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    2. Re:So much for do no evil by diskis · · Score: 1

      Let me guess... You are Swedish?
      No-one else thinks that phrase is funny :)

  3. Data center? A likely story by jollyreaper · · Score: 3, Funny

    No, I see what Google's angle is. Get everybody using computers, move away from paper, and once nobody else is making paper suddenly Google will come out with the latest hot product only available on paper! And you have to have this product; nay, you need this product. You couldn't face your friends and family without it. This plan is so cunning, so clever, so devious, you could stick a tail on it and call it Karl Rove.

    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    1. Re:Data center? A likely story by Oidhche · · Score: 5, Funny

      No, I think they're gonna print their own money.

    2. Re:Data center? A likely story by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, I think they're gonna print their own money.

      Google is larger than a whole raft of sovereign nations. They have their own airline. They seem to be trying to be a bank. Printing money is next.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    3. Re:Data center? A likely story by happylight · · Score: 1

      Then they probably should've bought a printing press instead of a paper mill.

    4. Re:Data center? A likely story by Szester · · Score: 1

      LOL, there is definitely something fishy going on here. They have more money then they know what to do with. They dont have any more need for more databases(they have more then enough already). I wonder what they are planning

    5. Re:Data center? A likely story by Slumdog · · Score: 1

      I wonder when they'll start buying windmills....produce their own wind?...oops!

    6. Re:Data center? A likely story by JCSoRocks · · Score: 1

      The federal government does it - Google might as well get in on the action too. Of course, Google money will be subsidized with small text-based ads relevant to your spending habits.

      --
      You are using English. Please learn the difference between loose and lose; they're, there, and their; your and you're.
    7. Re:Data center? A likely story by an+unsound+mind · · Score: 1

      Placing a data center

    8. Re:Data center? A likely story by an+unsound+mind · · Score: 2, Informative

      /. ate my post!

      Placing a data center near Kotka, Finland is a whole lot safer than placing it in Siberia, and you can serve half of Russia and most of northern Europe from there.

    9. Re:Data center? A likely story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They also have their own space-line

  4. Old News? Wrong Headline? by dmomo · · Score: 5, Funny

    I thought everyone new that due to the advent of Internet and Google (docs, mail, etc) *ALL* Paper Mills were Finnished.

  5. Last month by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    month != year

  6. It's official by travdaddy · · Score: 0

    "Print is dead."

    --
    Adidas To Bring Back Sneakernet
    1. Re:It's official by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1

      Netcraft confirms it.

      *ducks real low*

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
  7. Google Buys building. by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Funny

    wow.
    A paper mill is just a big building. I use to work for a company where the building use to be an old saw mill. Heck the house I live in use to be a small Candy Factory.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:Google Buys building. by primalamn · · Score: 5, Informative

      It is also a very big building with a massive supply of electricity already installed. Paper mill machinery is very large and runs of major amounts of electricity, so buying a defunct paper mill is a very good idea on their part, as the retrofit will not be the total infrastructure of the building.

    2. Re:Google Buys building. by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      Also paper mills use a lot of water. Building cooling systems use water, not as much as a paper mill but using that existing infrastructure also helps.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    3. Re:Google Buys building. by Scrameustache · · Score: 2, Informative

      It is also a very big building with a massive supply of electricity already installed.

      Even better: Many paper mills are located next to rapids in rivers, where they have their own hydroelectric generators.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    4. Re:Google Buys building. by dgr73 · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that in Finland the big problem is not really cooling, it's keeping warm.

    5. Re:Google Buys building. by primalamn · · Score: 1

      THis is an added bonus since paper mills typically have a closed loop system for the water use. They sequester the outflow since it contains possible toxic or harmful substances to treat and reuse in the process. This would be feasible to use this system to assist in a cooling system for the structure, reducing the need for AC and even more electricity. This will be interesting to see what goes on here, a possible model for using industrial structures by adapting and using existing infrastructure. Green methods in reuse and retasking.

    6. Re:Google Buys building. by UnknowingFool · · Score: 0

      Google could save some money on cooling by using the ambient air in certain ways but for the most part, there are issues to overcome. The air has to be filtered before use especially in Hamina, Finland which is located on the North Sea. Salt in the air would most likely prove corrosive to electronic equipment. It's probably far easier and more efficient to use water cooling chillers on a closed water and air loop.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    7. Re:Google Buys building. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, the baltic sea is one of the least salty ones. Actually, I live just 20 meters from it and no salt problems at all.

      Welcome to kymenlaakso, google. You'll be most welcome!

    8. Re:Google Buys building. by Albert+Sandberg · · Score: 1

      And in fact they had good security around the building as well which is also a good thing. Like fences etc.

    9. Re:Google Buys building. by Rogue974 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Interesting thoughts, but not necessarily valid all around. I worked in pulp and paper for 6.5 years, so I know my way around paper mills and had a few thoughts.

      Yes, paper mills have large electric service hook ups. Not diffcult to hook into.

      Yes, paper mills use their own closed loop water systems, BUT when the paper mill was decommissionined, most of that equipment was probably taken away and went to another facility of the paper company. Also, the systems are at times "closed loop", but they are also quite often closed loop when you look at the facility entire with the water that hits the floor being recycled back into the water system for reuse.

      Also, paper mills water systems usually deal with 10" + diameter pipes I imagine most of the piping would not be a good reuse for cooling in a server environment without sever revamping.

      The standards required for server cooling loops and that of a paper mill are quite differnet. In paper mills, it is a routine task to take a hose and spray things down. Because of this, small leaks in pipe, no big deal, the water will flow into the sumps and be picked up and put back in. Imagine reusing the old pipes to do some cooling loops and have a water spray t 140 psi shooting water across your server room or into the cube farm.

      Someone pointed out many paper mills are on rivers and generate their own power. Even if not using the river (which they need to dump effluent as well), many have power generating stations associated with them as well. There is a good chance that the mill has a generating station hooked to it. Google coudl have purchased that, or the paper company could have maintained ownership. Either way, the new data center is probably connected to the power station to increase reliability.

      So I think the big thing that Google gets out of it is:

      A shell of a building (take almost everything out from inside)
      Large electrical server
      Possible power generating station ownership or being directly connected to the power station.

    10. Re:Google Buys building. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's Baltic Sea, not North Sea. Danish straits separate it well from the latter and it gets most of its water from rivers. The salinity is very low for a sea, especially towards the eastern end of the Gulf of Finland, where Hamina is.

    11. Re:Google Buys building. by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      Are you that guy who drives around elementary schools in a windowless van with "FREE CANDY" spray painted on the side? If you live in a candy factory you could offer Willy Wonka tours, too.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    12. Re:Google Buys building. by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1

      Don't forget synergy! (sorry, couldn't resist)

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
  8. Oblig by Arthur+Grumbine · · Score: 0

    Something smells rotten in Denma--I mean, Finland.

    --
    Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure everything I just said is completely wrong.
  9. Uh oh!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Read this if you already haven't: http://www.energybulletin.net/node/23259

    Here we go.. Google Paper Mill is first. Then Google Farms, Google Mining, Google Education, Google Hospitals, etc.

    1. Re:Uh oh!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe they'll do a better job than governments. And for free, since they're going to put ads everywhere to pay for it.

      Can't wait for the day Google buys Wal-Mart.

    2. Re:Uh oh!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is what I imagine the borg would do once they assimilate Will Wright.

  10. Obviously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They need to print more stock!

  11. The "Paper Mill" part is incidental by jafiwam · · Score: 5, Interesting

    They just need industrial space. It just so happens that paper mills, like data centers need a lot of electricity.

    Which is cheap if your grid is fed by a hydroelectric dam (Summa, Finland area does have hydro-power).

    Lots of paper mills have gone out of business in the last decade, changing paper use habits has caused this.

    1. Re:The "Paper Mill" part is incidental by kqc7011 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There is also a paper mill in Niagara Wi. that is also being closed by Stora Enso that has its own hydro electric dam. Google could do the same thing here. Google could put a small town back to work. And make a profit selling the extra electricity too. Something different, a data center that pays for itself.

      --
      Passionately Indifferent
    2. Re:The "Paper Mill" part is incidental by houghi · · Score: 1

      Not only do they need space. I heard that they also need to be near water to be used for cooling. A paper mill will have access to water.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    3. Re:The "Paper Mill" part is incidental by Fozzyuw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I was not aware that the Niagara paper mill was closing down. But I don't think a data center will employ as much people as a paper mill, nor will it be of the same skill set. While it certainly would create some good paying jobs, Niagara will need more than that to replace the jobs lost.

      --
      "The past was erased, the erasure was forgotten, the lie became truth." ~1984 George Orwell
    4. Re:The "Paper Mill" part is incidental by gEvil+(beta) · · Score: 2, Funny

      Just be careful. A few weeks ago someone was telling me to watch out for the Niagaran Paper Mill scam.

      --
      This guy's the limit!
    5. Re:The "Paper Mill" part is incidental by Kjella · · Score: 1, Insightful

      There is also a paper mill in Niagara Wi. that is also being closed by Stora Enso that has its own hydro electric dam. Google could do the same thing here. Google could put a small town back to work.

      While the actual production line of pulp to paper is quite automated, the reason a paper mill is a big deal is that it's lots of manual labor, lots of people to supervise and maintain trucks and machinery, lots of shipping and handling and so on. Computer center? Throw up a well controlled environment with sensors and there it sits, replacing parts is nothing like maintaining the milling equipment and most other things can be done remotely. I'd be very surprised if they need 1/10th the manpower that the mill did.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    6. Re:The "Paper Mill" part is incidental by hansamurai · · Score: 1

      Not sure how much this matters, but Niagara is out in the middle of nowhere. Being between Rhinelander and Escanaba is pretty much guarantees that. Plus it's dangerously close to the UP.

    7. Re:The "Paper Mill" part is incidental by kqc7011 · · Score: 2, Funny

      And us yoopers could do just about anyting eh.

      --
      Passionately Indifferent
    8. Re:The "Paper Mill" part is incidental by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well paper mills employ a lot of people. The one paper mill I have visited was huge. And there where in total one guide showing us around and one guy monitoring a big red lamp. More or less.

      Even the coffee was made automatically...

      Of course. I don't now how many workers a data center needs.

  12. Its 2009 already! by Lord+Byron+II · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is the second article this week that confuses 2008 with 2009. The other was the article on the LHC startup.

    1. Re:Its 2009 already! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Danm you for getting there first. I even had cut and pasted the quote ready to use. I will use it, so ner: "Production of paper was ceased last month in January 2008" WTF AGAIN?!!

    2. Re:Its 2009 already! by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      CmdTaco is living in the past.

      You're living in the past, man! - Leo from That 70's Show

    3. Re:Its 2009 already! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Maybe that story got stuck in the firehose for 1 year.

    4. Re:Its 2009 already! by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

      Make that third -- a couple days ago, there was a story about a vim update from 6 months ago.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    5. Re:Its 2009 already! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      I was wondering why 2008 felt much longer than 2007.

    6. Re:Its 2009 already! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Must be a new meme.

    7. Re:Its 2009 already! by Arancaytar · · Score: 1

      Slashdot had a bad network problem a few days ago. I think one of their servers has reset its system clock in consequence; that would explain this. :P

  13. that, or... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    sure the datacenter thing is possible. Or maybe their ambition to outdo paper isn't going quite so well as planned!

  14. Gmoney by robert899 · · Score: 3, Funny

    They bought it to print their own currency. By the time it's up an running, the US dollar will be worthless due to inflation. Prudent business decision I must say :-)

    1. Re:Gmoney by TheCybernator · · Score: 1

      They bought it to print their own currency.

      You never know. Google might actually compete Linden Dollars with G$

    2. Re:Gmoney by ultranova · · Score: 1

      They bought it to print their own currency. By the time it's up an running, the US dollar will be worthless due to inflation. Prudent business decision I must say :-)

      Buying a printing press might have been even more prudent, but oh well...

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    3. Re:Gmoney by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a paper mill, not a printing press. Duh.

  15. How nifty! by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 0, Troll
    How nifty! They put a **HUGE** data center where the law was changed to allow unprecedented spying upon e-mail traffic, **AND** through which Russia is mostly connected to.

    What are the Google connections with the CIA, again????

    1. Re:How nifty! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Actually the e-mail spy law was implemented in Sweden (neighbor) not Finland incidentally a lot of data traffic from Finland Goes through Sweden. Now this data center might just re-route the traffic some other way e.g. through Estonia.

    2. Re:How nifty! by registered_after_8_y · · Score: 5, Informative

      Well, don't know you're just trolling, but FYI the law (Lex Nokia as it is called) has not yet been passed. Also the climate is very favorable, cold winters and not very hot summers...and I suppose the quite cheap electricity, good infrastructure and abundance of highly trained CS engineers in Finland does not hurt.

    3. Re:How nifty! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      abundance of highly trained CS engineers in Finland does not hurt.

      Not quite true. I'm an M.Sc. student and there has been a lot of discussion about quotas at universities being too big since if too many are admitted, quite a few people that simply aren't bright enough are admitted too. So there are quite a few M.Scs here - we still have the highest income level, after all - 10-25 % above MBAs on average (I study that too so I have access to all statistics). But not all with a degree, are particularly good (so employers do check grades).

    4. Re:How nifty! by mooglez · · Score: 1

      Actually, Googles current servers reside in Sweden, where it recently became possible to snoop on all traffic passing trough the country.

      Google itself, or maybe after some prompting from Russians might have found it prudent to move to a country that at least yet does not allow any snooping.

      Lex Nokia is currently encountering resistance in all media, so it might not pass after all.

    5. Re:How nifty! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if by "unprecedented spying" you mean "similar spying that other most other countries have allowed all the time", then yes.

    6. Re:How nifty! by ultranova · · Score: 3, Informative

      How nifty! They put a **HUGE** data center where the law was changed to allow unprecedented spying upon e-mail traffic, **AND** through which Russia is mostly connected to.

      Lex Nokia, which hasn't been passed yet, would allow the employer to monitor his employees email accounts located at company servers. It as absolutely nothing to do with Russia, unless we're talking about Russians who are employed by Google and use Gmail.

      I repeat: this law, if it passes, would let the employer read emails sent to or from his own email servers by his employees. I'm pretty sure that's not "unprecedented", at least not outside Finland.

      What are the Google connections with the CIA, again????

      Probably the same as Google's connections with China: the company will do whatever it's told. What does that have to do with anything?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    7. Re:How nifty! by Ornedan · · Score: 1

      A quibble on Lex Nokia: It's not just employers. It's any "service provider", for pretty nebulous definitions of "service" and "provider". Up to and including the landlord and grounds keeper in case of your home connection.

    8. Re:How nifty! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it'd allow snooping of _any_ e-mail traffic by anyone under your control (be that employees of your company or people renting apartments from you), which is why privacy groups are so strongly opposed to it.

      Given that national censorship (which is voluntary in name only) is already well in place and snooping will soon be completely legal, it'll not be long before snooping of everything in case some of those horrible terrorists, pedophiles or school shooters decide to send a message through YOUR lines is mandatory. Then, we'll have a new DDR.

      If that happens, we'll be having a revolution. Just to let you know about the severity of the situation...

    9. Re:How nifty! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry for posting AC but I lost my account.

      Anyways, Lex Nokia doesn't say anything about companies or employers, it talks about community subscribers. All the politicians only talk about employers, too, and refuse to get into a discussion about this new community subscribers term, which was placed into Finnish legislation in 2004 or something like that.
        So yes, the timing seems just a bit too perfect. Maybe this will finaly open the doors for our leaders to get fat paychecks from European/NATO institutions, yay!

    10. Re:How nifty! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I repeat: this law, if it passes, would let the employer read emails sent to or from his own email servers by his employees. I'm pretty sure that's not "unprecedented", at least not outside Finland.

      Actually according to the law draft, the employer wouldn't be able to read the emails, only headers. Still, I don't like the possibly upcoming law.

    11. Re:How nifty! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I repeat: this law, if it passes, would let the employer read emails sent to or from his own email servers by his employees.

      No, it would allow them to read the headers, not the content.

  16. Dear Washington post by aepervius · · Score: 0, Redundant

    where production of paper was ceased last month in January 2008

    Last month was in 2009. I hope you are more reliable than that on your other article.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  17. That is an April Fools Joke by qw0ntum · · Score: 1

    Because some mods obviously didn't get it that was an April Fools Joke from 2007.

    --
    'Every story, if continued long enough, ends in death.' --Ernest Hemingway
  18. Informative? Funny! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nice to see people reading the wikipedia link to the "Google's hoaxes" page!

  19. CmdrTaco == Time Traveller by nitroscen · · Score: 2, Insightful

    last month in January 2008

    I knew it! CmdrTaco is a Time Traveller. Getting our news from the past.. brilliant!

    1. Re:CmdrTaco == Time Traveller by jimbobborg · · Score: 3, Informative

      I think this joke is Finished.

    2. Re:CmdrTaco == Time Traveller by rockbottoms · · Score: 1

      No, Google bought that too. Now it's back in Beta

    3. Re:CmdrTaco == Time Traveller by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't you mean Finnished?

    4. Re:CmdrTaco == Time Traveller by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't you mean, Finnished?

      Try the veal!

  20. Why is this news? by jandrese · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Big corporation buys some land to put buildings on. Previous occupant happened to be a paper mill, but who cares? Maybe I'm crazy, but I really don't see what's so newsworthy about this.

    --

    I read the internet for the articles.
    1. Re:Why is this news? by Shrike82 · · Score: 2

      I'm also not seeing the importance of this. Sounds about as interesting as me posting a /. article about the view from my office window, or a lengthy description of the various fillings in my daily sandwiches.

      --
      You can advertise in this sig from as little as £99.99 a month!
    2. Re:Why is this news? by skyride · · Score: 1

      Agreed.

    3. Re:Why is this news? by jimwelch · · Score: 1

      This is why I marked it badtitle in tags! Just add the word FORMER to paper mill and it would be more accurate and informative.

      --
      Never trust a man wearing a coat and tie!
    4. Re:Why is this news? by ultranova · · Score: 1

      I like mettwurst, especially Russian mettwurst. Salami is also good, and tuna covered with cheese which is melted in a microwave is a classic.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    5. Re:Why is this news? by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      Perhaps it's the symbolism; like an auto repair shop replacing a saddle shop at the beginning of the last century.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    6. Re:Why is this news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am a Finn and I work in Search Engine Marketing and I STILL don't find this meaningful news, so I got to agree with you. I could understand some of the Finnish tech sites (like Sektori.com) mentioning this but /.? No reason.

      Then again, does this really matter so much less than Obama's blackberry? Just today, there was once again more pondering about it. I have seen at least half a dozen articles about it on Slashdot already and they just keep coming!

  21. Primatech by Per+Wigren · · Score: 4, Funny

    Are you sure it wasn't Primatech they aquired? That would fit perfectly with their "Don't be evil" motto.

    --
    My other account has a 3-digit UID.
    1. Re:Primatech by Z80xxc! · · Score: 1

      Hmm... nothing on their website about it. (I've got to say, it's a pretty crappy site they made. Pinehurst's is better.

    2. Re:Primatech by zobier · · Score: 1

      Are they running some sort of ARG?

      --
      Me lost me cookie at the disco.
  22. I'll bet the neighbors are happier though by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

    After all, even with this new addition to Gmail, production is going to be down. As a person born in Albany, OR, and having to smell the paper plant every time I go back- let's just say at least as smog it has "flavor" (a kind of spicy smell....)

    --
    SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  23. Hold on by noundi · · Score: 1

    ...which has now also been confirmed by Reuters.

    Wait, didn't Wikipedia just kill the liability of journalism?

    --
    I am the lawn!
  24. Good that it's finished by coren2000 · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't want them to buy an Unfinnish factory now would we?

  25. Fight Club? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I was on a flight to Detroit when the person sitting next to me struck up a conversation.

    Did you know that Google is buying a paper mill? Hmm, A paper mill. Did you know that if you cut up paper you get paper strips. Add equal parts water and flour (with a touch of oil) you get paper mache.

    Yeah, with enough paper mache, Google could model just about anything in the world. If they were so inclined.

    He was, by far, the most interesting "single-serving" friend that I have ever met.

    1. Re:Fight Club? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Find "paper mill" in fight club's script:

      http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Fight-Club.html

  26. Location, location, location. by Max+Romantschuk · · Score: 5, Informative

    My co worker tells me they have a power plant on site, so tick the electricity box...

    The location is right my the sea, and also handily close to Russia. There's a map in this Helsingin Sanomat article:
    http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Stora+Enso+closing+Summa+and+Kemij%C3%A4rvi+mills+at+brisk+pace+/1135233375617

    So basically they can easily lay cable from and to the site, and they can have excellent connections to Russia without actually having to place the hardware there. (Not that I'm sure it would be an issue these days.)

    Also, they can literally put the hardware on a ship and ship it right to the location.

    --
    .: Max Romantschuk :: http://max.romantschuk.fi/
    1. Re:Location, location, location. by Max+Romantschuk · · Score: 4, Informative

      This seems to be the site:
      http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=ensontie+summa+finland&sll=60.535839,27.158031&sspn=0.065861,0.179901&ie=UTF8&ll=60.544113,27.142239&spn=0.065844,0.179901&t=h&z=13&iwloc=addr

      (Judging from the fact that "Ensontie" (Enso road) goes right by the gray bits which are clearly an industrial complex.)

      --
      .: Max Romantschuk :: http://max.romantschuk.fi/
    2. Re:Location, location, location. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      The original site was home to the lumber yard, pulp mill, port, and paper mill designed in 1936 by famous architect Alvar Aalto. It also includes two groups of housing complexes - one for management, and another further away for employees and their families. All of the support buildings (schools, cafeteria, etc.) are also on-site. In total I believe there is housing for around 100 families, with 6 reserved for management.

      The worker housing is not the low-quality type that Ford built around it's factories, which Aalto was aware of, and he even referred to Ford's (and other companies doing this at the time) as shanty towns when designing this facility.

    3. Re:Location, location, location. by 21mhz · · Score: 1

      So basically they can easily lay cable from and to the site, and they can have excellent connections to Russia without actually having to place the hardware there. (Not that I'm sure it would be an issue these days.)

      Of course it would, when FSB comes after their hard drives for hosting the opposition on Blogger.

      And yes, some of the fattest bit pipes connecting Russia to the world go through Finland.

      --
      My exception safety is -fno-exceptions.
  27. Fight Club? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    err someone please explain this tag to me... i mean, yes it would be cool to buy a gaint facility and turn it into a fight club, but a data center is more useful, and a fight club in finland... meh.

  28. Mistake in headline: by MadMidnightBomber · · Score: 5, Funny

    Should be "Google to produce hardcopy of Internet"

    --
    "It doesn't cost enough, and it makes too much sense."
  29. Finnish Him! by Saint+Gerbil · · Score: 2, Funny

    Doesn't sound like google they don't finnish anything half their products are still in beta!

    1. Re:Finnish Him! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      your pun has cast this thread into failure, and with it's dieing breath cries out

      "IT IS FINNISHED"

  30. Group *whoosh* by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 1

    Wow. Sometimes I wonder who the hell falls for infomercials and Nigerian scams. Then I see responses to an obvious hoax like the previous, and it all makes sense.

    Please tell me that the previous responses to this were trying to be ironic, I'd feel a lot better about the human race.

  31. its not good enough for google by circletimessquare · · Score: 2, Funny

    to merely put the newspaper industry's reason for existence into doubt

    now google actually has to go out and confiscate newspapers' means of production and forcibly convert paper mills into data centers? talk about insult on top of injury

    i think someone at google is taking this whole notion of the digital "revolution" a little too seriously, no? do they assassinate rupert murdoch and demolish the conde nast building next?

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:its not good enough for google by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      > ...do they assassinate rupert murdoch...

      We can only hope.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    2. Re:its not good enough for google by raybob · · Score: 0

      Change is inevitable. I'm pretty surprised to see anyone here taking the luddite stance.

      Think of it this way though. Finland is basically rural Europe. Investing in information industry in rural Europe, Google is leading the envelope is spurring information technology job growth in rural areas, where unemployment is highest (definitely true in the U.S. anyway).

      Bringing IT workers in usually will raise the general technology if not education level in a given rural setting (see datacenters in South Carolina and Alabama for instance). That will tend to improve school systems and other services to a certain degree. Granted a datacenter isn't a massive employer, but it can start or contribute to a positive trend.

      So, converting a mammoth eyesore that can't be profitable in hard industry space to a net job producer ? How can you argue against that ?

    3. Re:its not good enough for google by an+unsound+mind · · Score: 1

      Hoo boy. How clueless can you be?

      Finland is very high-tech all around. To the point that you can have three different broadband connections in places without running water.

      It's sparsely populated but very much not an unemployed rural backwood - heck, IRC and Linux are both from Finland, along with aplenty of tech and IT professionals.

      And an eyesore? A paper mill designed by Alvar Aalto? Unpractical, perhaps, but an eyesore?

    4. Re:its not good enough for google by raybob · · Score: 0

      Okay, lots of fans for Finland here. Sure, they have some tech industry there. But they are still rural. Name three major metros in Finland, anyone ?? Helsinki, um, um....

      Let's compare with Arkansas for instance, shall we ? Anyone want to debate that it is rural ? Anyone want to debate there is tech industry there ? Walmart, UoA RFID research center, Acxiom, Tyson Foods, Arkansas Best Freight -- all major tech consumers & employers.

      Cell phone coverage everywhere ? Sure. Running water everywhere ? Probably.

      Paper mills ? Yep, got them too. I don't know who designed them, but a paper mill is a big ugly smelly thing that unless otherwised purpposed, will remain a hulking ghost if decommissioned.

      Finland is definitely remote relative to the core of Europe, is sparsely populated, and in fact refers to itself as a 'rural European nation' (google "rural finland").

      So, I don't undertand what your argument is. Are you just punking on the fact that the guy was making a joke and I tried to turn it serious ? If that's it, then grow up and join the adult table.

      If you believe that Finland is the premier urban oasis of Western Europe, maybe you ought to go there & look around for yourself. Then tell me what you think.

    5. Re:its not good enough for google by an+unsound+mind · · Score: 1

      Wait, what?

      You're being downright nonsensical here. It isn't "rural" for the context, no.

      There's more rural area than in the United States, but more importantly transportation is very well-developed and thus people can afford to be living a lot more sparsely than in the United States.

      Metros? They don't fit in to the culture and the way the cities are built. Pretty much only the design of Helsinki incorporated them, and even the metro network in Helsinki is next to useless. Instead, there are aplenty of bus networks that connect the entire country, seeing that with the sparser population bus networks tend to be a lot cheaper to build and maintain than metro networks.

      And more importantly, it isn't backwards. Finland is very technologically advanced - despite the setbacks in the last five years or so Finland is still technologically superior to the United States (though not to Sweden who have kept upgrading their infrastructure). Google isn't leading anything and information technology is already very prevalent as a field and has a high priority in Finland.

      And unemployment isn't going to be noticeably improved by Google either. Well, given the amount of educated tech guys in Finland it sure doesn't hurt but Nokia is a much bigger factor still.

      Sparsely populated and largely rural != backwards, uneducated, without good technological infrastructure or significantly unemployed.

    6. Re:its not good enough for google by an+unsound+mind · · Score: 1

      And to add, Alvar Aalto has designed the buildings. They may be big and smelly, but they aren't ugly by any measure.

    7. Re:its not good enough for google by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up.

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
  32. Redundancy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Obviously the space is most likely going to serve as a data center...

    Furiously I object with great anger to English constructions like this.

    1. Re:Redundancy... by raybob · · Score: 0

      But then again, you have to admire how they structure their word usements.

  33. Re:How nifty! Another question: by davidsyes · · Score: 1

    What will become of things as more sites along with facebook, such as Multiply, myspace, and all the others become "incentivized" to sidle along with Google. If Google IS in bed with Uncle Same, umm, Uncle Sam, we can all forget about any further tenuous assertions of "privacy".

    --
    Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
  34. Slashdot is so last year by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Last month, January 2008. Right. That's just like the Linux version of Eve Online was released in November last year, 2007: http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/02/08/206252.
    Someone forgot to buy a new calendar for the Slashdot crew.

  35. Paper = weight by wonkavader · · Score: 4, Informative

    Paper mills are designed for heavy machines and heavy rolls of paper. That means that they have strong floors which don't flex, and they don't collapse when you put in a few tons of batteries.

    Because of this, telcos (which are largely DC operations and have huge battery backups) love defunct printing buildings and use them for switches.

    It makes perfect sense that Google would want such a stable, heavy building.

  36. Stora Kopparberg by Bj�rn · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Today, Finland-based paper group Stora Enso

    Stora Enso has its headquarters in Finland, but it is both a Finnish and Swedish company. In 1998 Swedish Stora Kopparberg and Finnish Enso-Gutzeit Oy merged into Stora Enso. What is interesting about Stora Kopparberg ("great copper mountain") is that it started out as a copper mining company and is probably the oldest existing corporation in the world. The first shares for Stora came out in 1288.

    --
    Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think. --Niels Bohr
  37. wtf? by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    1. i was joking. very obviously. i got modded funny, see? you need a new humor chip

    2. finland is the hillbilly alabama of europe? wtf? ever hear of nokia? lucky for you you've insulted a people of famously morose and taciturn character, so you should escape with your life

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  38. Re:Google Buys building by primalamn · · Score: 1

    Thanks for this reply, you are correct in all of this, I was simplifying the idea, but yes, there would be need for retrofit in the water system, but the fact that there is a groundwork for this is a plus. And yes, personal or localized power generation solves one of Google's largest concerns, which is the electricity reliability and cost. There is a reason they are wanting in right now in the process of the smart grid development in the US and the data that it will produce.

  39. Paper mill != Diploma mill by The+Fun+Guy · · Score: 1

    I read the headline and I thought, "Well, shoot, so many people plagiarize their papers from Google searches that Google might as well own the diploma mill, too. So much for 'do no evil'."

    Then the coffee kicked in.

    --
    The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. - Mark Twain
  40. Water... by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    Paper mills need lots of water. Y'know like for cooling.
     

    --
    Deleted
  41. Re:worker housing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Well, those buildings might be better than shanty towns but still... Aalto was a fan of functionalism and was an innovite furniture designer, but his buildings are far from efficient and comfortable. Tiny kitchens and bathrooms, small bedrooms and huge livingrooms. Eeerie, dimly lit staircases. National board of antiquities is hell bent to protect the original look and doesn't give permits for visible modifications, renovations have to be according to original design even if it's failed one.

    We actually were thinking to buy one of these, but decided against for the reasons listed above.

    Aalto is somewhat a holy cow in Finland. You'll usually get bad looks if you critizise his designs. Even if it's valid, like mocking flat roofs which are total disaster in our climate.

  42. Following the steps of nokia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Following the steps of nokia...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia#Pre-telecommunications_era

  43. Re:Stora Kopparberg .. existential FAIL by pbhj · · Score: 1

    Swedish Stora Kopparberg and Finnish Enso-Gutzeit Oy merged into Stora Enso. [...] Stora Kopparberg [...] is probably the oldest existing corporation in the world.

    Except for the fact that it no longer exists?

  44. Paper mill or more... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are you sure it's just a paper mill? Didn't Nokia start as one, many moons ago?

  45. Confirmed by Reuters? by Trogre · · Score: 1

    Who in turn probably just read it on /.

    --
    "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
  46. The future just got brighter! by slygrayling · · Score: 1

    I think it's the next service. "Google Bible".

  47. Think Finnish paper mills = US car factories by jokkebk · · Score: 1

    From Finnish viewpoint the news is very interesting, because these paper mill sites (Summa, Kemijarvi mill, and some others) have been continuously in the headlines for the last two years due to their closing down. Many of the cities these factories have resided in are in rather remote locations, and there aren't many companies who are interested in the facilities, meaning a significant share of the taxpayers suddenly become unemployed, without much hope for new companies appearing.

    Now the headline where Google, a global superbrand, is buying an obscure paper mill and converting it to a datacenter truly raises eyebrows, I myself almost fell from my chair when a saw the headline. From US viewpoint and scale, it would equate to something like:

    "Chinese government to acquire all car factories in Detroit and convert them for clothing production".

    Except Google and paper mill makes up a somewhat more nerdy combination. But I agree, people not familiar with Summa paper mills and their history probably won't appreciate this getting to the Slashdot front page.

    --
    http://codeandlife.com
  48. Predicted by Doctor Spengler by Geminii · · Score: 1

    Apparently, print is dead.

  49. Additional information by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The three Fourdriniers the mill had have all been already disassembled. The plant had three power generators, but actually the vast majority of the electricity used by the mill was brought in from elsewhere. The Loviisa nukular [sic] power plant isn't very far from the plant. The Hamina harbor I believe is right next to the plant, but right now I forget if it has actually already ceased functioning as well or if it will in the near future. This deal was of course in the news here in Finland, but I too am surprised that it was worldwide news reported by every news agency right up to AP and Reuters...