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Handset Vendors Plug Micro-USB Charge Ports
ketan324 points to a Register story touting an agreement among several phone makers to settle on Micro USB for their phones' charging ports, writing "It's about time for these cellphone manufacturers to wise up and design a universal phone charger. Although many manufacturers have already 'standardized' to a mini-USB interface, there are many more out there who use proprietary adapters. I wonder how Apple will feel about this? Will they finally realize that their oh-so-special adapter is nothing more than a fudged USB interface?" No legislation required.
I have working USB on my computer. Why the hell do I need to install a Motorola XP driver to charge my RAZR?
About time.
cell phone cables need to be able to support digital data, power and analog multi-channel audio input(microphones) and output (speakers). Some also need to support RGB or S-video out
USB can do the first two. I may be mistaken but I don't think that USB can support those analog channels.
So the connectors are not "oh so special" they are actually accomodating what is needed.
If you want a minimalist approach of having a single docking connector then you need to have all that functionality.
the alternative is to have a lot of different input/output ports or even mulitle ways of doing it.
For my simple cell phone, I say yes! all I want is a USB charger so I can charge it off my laptop with any available cable. That's great. But for people with those uber-phones well USB is not going to hack it so it is kind of silly to complain.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
You did notice the article said 2012?
By then, they will have changed their minds again.
Or, they will be switching to that mini-USB connector just as we move to USB3 with a new design
To be fair, the iPod dock connector carries more than just USB. And the USB dock cables work on pretty much any model iPod.
USB provides 5 +/- 0.25 volts if I remember correctly. Why not just use the regular wall outlet instead? It would charge your devices so much faster compared to USB.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits" - Albert Einstein
Um, we did, and at this time he's probably already back in Crawford.
Yeah it is nice to be able to use my wife's 2nd gen ipod cable for my touch when I need to (and vice versa) I thought for sure that would be something Apple wouldn't do.
I wonder how Apple will feel about this? Will they finally realize that their oh-so-special adapter is nothing more than a fudged USB interface?"
Oh, like Apple is just using the dock connector to be "special"? It's true that the dock connector is *mostly* USB, but it also can carry audio and video so that, with only a dock, you can output to a stereo or TV. Also, the audio put out through the dock is supposedly different from what comes out of the headphone jack (I believe they aren't amplifying the audio from the dock), meaning you can get better quality for outputting to a stereo.
So I don't know why the submitter has to turn this into an Apple-bashing thing. Apple actually uses standards pretty often. And often, when they do stray from a standard, it's in order to provide specific functionality-- and even then they often release the specs for their version, allowing others to adopt it. For example, I believe they released the specs for their custom "mini display port" that they're using without requiring any kind of licensing fees or anything.
The threat of legislation was enough.
I'm sure the handset makers are deeply saddened by this. Clearly, this unwelcome meddling by government will hurt consumers by ending competition in this vital technical matter. Why, instead of buying the latest high-tech replacement cable custom optimized for advanced synergy with their handset, people might replace a lost cable with an abandoned, misbranded, maybe even second-handed cable from an older handset. This could cost consumers literally incalculable amounts of synergy and innovation. Why won't the government just let capitalism work?
Because of the way USB is designed. If your device does not get attached to a driver, it is stuck on low power mode, which is not sufficient for charging a phone. When a driver is attached, the driver can ramp the port up into high power mode and charge the phone.
I take it this means that if I have a USB hub then my cell phone is always on low power charge mode. Otherwise I don't see how a computer could decide how much current to supply when multiple devices are attached in parallel via a hub.
So charging times must be dramatically reduced if I use a direct connection to the computer USB port rather than indierectly through a hub?
A second question is, why don't devices supply their own drivers when you plug them in?
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Funny. Looks like we replaced one monkey with another. And this one is hell-bent on flinging shit at the economy.
I believe some vendors already do this: standard USB connectors, but the charger has "host" silicon, and so the phone refuses to charge when not used with a "genuine" charger.
My Palm has a usb connector that can provide data from the computer and also a charge but it also had a high-power connector with wall wart that could charge it fully in 20 minutes. Makes sense since usb charging can take up to four hours for a fully discharged battery.
I've seen hybrid connectors on some devices where you have your mini-usb to the left and the proprietary crap on the right. Plug in the proprietary connector, you get everything. If you're on the road and just need some juice, any standard mini-usb cable works fine.
If you absolutely cannot possibly put a hybrid connector on the bottom, use the proprietary one there and stick a usb on the side, done and done.
The real reason why nobody has standardized is there's no external force like the government telling them to do so and there's so much money to be made forcing people to buy ridiculously over-priced peripherals and accessories.
Take mp3 players for example. If it cost $100, I bet we could easily drop another $100 getting the accessories. Screen sleeve, car charger, audio adapter for the radio (fm transmitter are the most expensive), etc. A cigarette adapter will set you back $30 easy and the bastards cost less than a buck to make. It's the same bullshit you saw with the big box stores selling you the printer for a reasonable price and charging $20 for the $2 data cable not included in the box.
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
We discussed this issue back in 2006, though for a different continent. But if South Korea and China can do it, why not the rest of the world? Seems like it would be a win-win for manufacturing, if nothing else.
$nice = $webHosting + $domainNames + $sslCerts
I recently got an Nokia E71. They have a micro USB port, but cannot charge it via that port. They really need to enable user to sync and charge via the micro USB port like Samsung.
What prevents them from still requiring a proprietary signal from the usb port or psu to put the device in charge mode. Hence requiring a "certified" power source. Take for instance the PS3 controller, it doesn't charge from a regular mini usb power supply.
We are the people our parents warned us about.
While the iPhone uses Apple's own dock connector, that connector is only one jump away from USB for both charge and data, plus it includes extra features. (Audio and TV out.) The iPhone package ships with a USB-to-dock cable, and (in the US) a 110VAC-to-USB adapter. They've also kept the dock connector pretty stable, with the only major change being the switch from Firewire to USB - and many devices along the way could use either version.
I'd of course be delighted if everyone would standardize on one power+data connector for phones, but until that day comes I think Apple has no reason to be ashamed of what they've got now.
With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
I bought a Sansa Fuze recently, because it fit all the criteria I had for a new mp3 player:
cheapish (4gb for $70)
Small/thin
Video playback
Expandable storage (via SDHC)
good codec support (ogg, flac, mp3, etc)
long battery life (~24 hours on a charge, for audio)
the *only* think i dont like? proprietary usb cable. what an annoying thing to do on a nifty little device.
By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth. -- George Carlin
I'm suprised Sony have backed it. Not at all suprised that Apple haven't!
Well no. Uber-phones just need an USB connector and appropriate drivers to let them feed audio/video/files/network/whatever they feel like through it. No need for special drivers and wires ! Just standardize on protocols (like Bluetooth did, but USB is also quite good at that) and you have one connector for all your needs.
That would require every device you plug the phone or iPod into to be a USB host. That's going to cost a lot more.
I have a Nokia phone that can output video and stereo audio through its headset jack. It also has a standard mini USB port, and a barrel connector for the charger. I'm pretty sure it can charge through the USB connector, but since Nokia already had a charger that fit their other more basic phones, they elected to use that so people could use their older Nokia car chargers and so on.
But, getting back to what you were talking about:
How do you propose I install drivers on my TV and stereo, both of which lack USB ports?
Instead of a cheap video cable to show video or photos to your relatives, you would need a clunky thing that acts as a USB host and acts as a video adapter. That sounds like a very special wire! And it seems like a step backwards.
Putting moderation advice in your
The iPod dock connector can't carry more than just USB at once. It can carry USB *or* Firewire. But it doesn't do both simultaneously. The purpose of the connector is so it doesn't need two separate ports... one for firewire, one for USB. I don't think USB and Firewire ports are interchangeable, but I could be mistaken. In all honesty, Apple should just drop Firewire support for iPods and iPhones since they really don't need it.
..a wall charger with a micro-USB connector on the end of it?
Just because the connector is micro-USB doesn't mean the other end has to plug into a computer USB port.
paintball
Looking at the pinout, it also carries analog video and audio. Firewire is for only six pins out of the 30.
I've had Motorola phones that have a micro USB connector but refuse to accept a charge from anything except a Motorola charger.
I would hope that this agreement to use USB goes further than simply adopting the physical connector.
It should be possible to attach to any convenient USB plug - without benefit of drivers - and recharge a phone.
While I too wouldn't mind a more standard charging connector, I see no reason why a mini-usb for getting power, AND a custom plug with more ability than simply power and a slow one to one data comm protocol for one host (the PC)
http://pinouts.ru/Devices/ipod_pinout.shtml
That link shows both the iPod and iPhone connector. I am actually in the process of designing some nice attachments to the iPhone using a combination of USB, firewire, and a ttl serial port.
None of those things outside of the one USB connection would be found in USB.
Mini-USB won't let me get composite video out, or audio out to plug in my car stereo, or audio IN.
However, the practice of bastardizing the USB jack so it is only useful for power, and rare (or nonexistent) data purposes, totally needs to die.
I mean, I can understand if the phone doesn't Have those abilities at all, then of course the USB jack shouldn't. But just using iPhone as an example, plugging it in with the USB connector only makes it show up as a camera device to access pictures. Nothing else. And those antics are BS and should go.
Being able to plug in your phone to charge with the same plug you may use for the headset, your camera (the real one, phone cameras still suck) and any other multitude of devices just makes sense from the beginning. It should be touted as a feature that a phone carries a standard charging connector, not pushed as an industry standard onto everyone. I use a mini-hat USB for my phone (Dash), camera (Samsung L60), and PS3 controllers already, so replacing any of them should be within my want to use the same charging devices I already have.
Having to buy new cables for a new phone has been a commercial scheme since 'cellular phone' day one, and could almost (based on usage) be compared to having to buy new video output cables every time you changed monitors; square-up your combinations and you have a lucrative market.
Luckily this hasn't flown well with consumers in some time (Apple backlash noted, conversion of iPods to standard headphone jacks et.al.), but again shouldn't be pushed as a 'standard' (Apple's extra capabilities built-in also noted) and instead as a 'works with your existing xxx' feature.
Slashdot: Where opinions are just opinions until you have mod points.
Legislation (or threat of legislation) had nothing to do with it. The legislators are already all bought and paid for.
The problem is that selling replacement chargers only works from a profit perspective when the profit from the replacement chargers you're selling offsets the cost of the free chargers you're including with the phone. That worked for a little while, but then generic manufacturers got involved, and the money made selling replacement chargers stopped beating the money spent including free chargers.
So the phone companies are switching over to the printer+USB cable/HD TV+HDMI cable model. With standardized chargers, they don't need to include a charger with the phone anymore, saving them money. And then the retailers can sell you a phone, and then also sell you a $2 charger for $80. $120 if it's gold plated. $180 if it's gold plated and made by Monster.
paintball
parent is insightful
Its not just a matter of the connector bits and maybe including an extra cable in the box. Its also the engineering and extra electronics and regulation to take power from any of multiple sources, and even thats not inclusive of having the USB plugged in for data but not power while wall power is being used and other situations. I'd rather not have that faster-charging barely-regulated 6.7v be two teeny transistors in a $200 cellphone away from feeding into the +5vsb of my $200 motherboard.
Slashdot: Where opinions are just opinions until you have mod points.
They *have* dropped firewire support. Newer iPods can charge over firewire, but lack the controller to actually transfer data over it.
I don't want my iPhone outfitted with a USB port. 30-pin iPod connector works fine. Let other companies worry about standardizing. I'd like to stick to whatever I have available.
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/communications/0,1000000085,39289524,00.htm
"The spaghetti-like nightmare that forms many users' collection of phone chargers, headset connectors and data cables could be set to end after a major mobile industry forum agreed to standardise on one type of connector."
What else will we hear about?
"Universal charger for phones plan"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7894763.stm
"Mobile phone makers agree to create standard charger "
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/090217/technology/spain_telecom_equip_technology_charger_consumer
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
This is exactly why the phone manufacturers like USB.
They get to follow an established standard, avoid government regulation, and screw the consumer all in one step.
As someone earlier in the thread mentioned, the manufacturers just put a USB host chip in the charger that acts as a gateway to the computer and can authenticate with the phone.
Ok. So what other phones or devices can use that connector? None, you say? It's not an industry standard?
A standard of some kind is damn useful. It's the only way to break Apple's stranglehold. I don't want to have to pay AT&T and Apple if I want to use my phone as a media device in my vehicle. It's the same as the "Microsoft tax" because Microsoft owns the standards. Do we REALLY want the same thing happening in the mobile phone space, with the even more controlling Apple at the helm?
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
At least if you have only Apple products you will need only one cable (except for iPod Shuffle).
but if you have 3 different cell phone models from nokia at your home, you will probably need 2 or 3 different chargers and other 2 data cables.
Motorola are not the only ones that do this. My wife has a Blackberry, Mio GPS and Motorola Bluetooth headset. They each have micro USB sockets but none of the in-car chargers that came with each unit work with any of the other units. Bizarrely, Belkin did an in-car charger that charges all three (and my Garmin GPS) with no quibbles. However, they don't seem to do it any more and her sister has stolen it back! The other Belkin charger that we have does not work with all of them. If anyone knows where it's possible to get another of these 'truly universal' universal in-car chargers please let me know!
How many 5v or 12v wall warts do you have? How many have the same connector? Every time you toss a broken small electronic device, a perfectly good power adapter goes with it. (Or you wind up with a big box of unused ones, like I have.) If there were a standard 5v (12+5 would be even better) connector, you wouldn't need a power adapter with every purchase and a mountain of e-waste could be avoided. Convenience is a bonus.
moreover, firewire iPods *can't* charge over USB. At least my 3rd gen can't.
Pisses me off. Firewire is much better tech than USB. Loading a 160 GB iPod over USB sucks.
I have an external USB battery pack, and there are direct-to-wall USB jacks. These devices are "dumb" and will just shove 5v down the line at 500mA (or more)
Motorola, iPhone, and (probably) Sony Ericsson USB cables all need to be slightly modified before they work with these types of devices.
For example: http://www.instructables.com/id/Modify_a_generic_USB_car_charger_to_charge_a_3rd_g/
There is no reason why these can't be charged from USB without the drivers -- they're just made that way so that companies can shove more $40 chargers in our faces, and not buying (or even using) a nice $2 USB cable.
Firewire or USB can both saturate any 2.5 inch or 1.5 inch drive inside any portable music player.
Differences in transfer speeds are either software related or due to intentional speed bumps.
And 500 mA of good idea.
æeee!
Some hubs will start providing 500mA on each port right after plugin in.
Some hubs will stay off and wait to be enumerated before powering up.
I've had both type in my possession.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
The 32 pin cable that connects to the iPhone/iPod is not just a USB cable. The 32 pins also transmit analog video (composite), analog audio, serial data.... But, when connected to my Linux box, it will charge I think every phone should use the same USB connector for charging. I'm just not sure which USB connector the phone should have (micro-usb, mini-usb...).
(or maybe it's integrated into the kernel)
Under Windows, each driver is as a small independent black box.
If two of them need to do something similar, the code will have to be re-written again for each driver.
Thus the USB power output negotiation has to be rewritten for every single driver.
(This is due to the fact that under windows, lots of drivers are developed by 3rd parties, and everything being closed source makes it even more difficult to identify common parts)
Under Linux, as everything is opensource and, in fine, everything goes inside the same kernel, there are maximal effort to avoid repetition of code. If two drivers need to do the same thing, this codes goes into a library or into a generic driver.
As such, as virtually all USB device must negotiate power output, the negotiation code goes into the base USB stack. Thus, even if you don't have the specific driver to handle a phone's special characteristics, there's indeed an "act like a dumb charger" function that will be called by the base USB stack (right after enumeration, I think) and will negotiate the current that the phone requires (500mA in most cases).
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
That connector provides interfaces for USB and Firewire, audio in/out, video out (composite and s-video), serial, and dedicated power.
An what's the problem in putting a couple of discrete standard connectors (microUSB, miniFW and 3.5mm jacks) next to each other on the same edge at a well defined distance from each other ?
That way, they could still use a single dock (which has the corresponding plugs set at the same distance) but people could also use standard cables if needed.
There are lots of constructors who have set data & charging connectors next to each other for this special purpose. (Only their connectors where proprietary). But you could either plug separate charging and sync (proprietary) cable. Or use a dock.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
The 3rd gen is the only USB iPod that cannot charge over USB.
The iPod Mini and iPod 4th gen (which have full firewire support) will charge over USB no problem.
.
So they decide on universal ports for chargers.... but nothing about accessories. I love it! Even funnier, they say nothing about this generation micro-USB chargers working on next generation phones! Don't worry guys, they'll find a way to fleece us yet!
micro-USB
Though the quoted part of the article mentioned
mini-USB
Hopefully the industry decides on one or the other - if we see an implementation of each then we aren't much better off than we are now.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Unfortunately, the iPhone has dropped support for Firewire charging, which is a shame as it provides much more power and faster charging to devices (not to mention the ease of making converters from 12V car ports to 12V Firewire ports). I know this as I has to go through a lot of hoops shortly after the iPhone 3G release to replace my cabling rig in my car. I found out a lot about the inferiority/unreliability of USB as a charger, having gone through 5 lighter to USB adaptors before I found one of the appropriate capacity and reliability.
I bought a kit from teleport for $50 that charges practically ALL phones in the car or from the wall (100-240V) and came with a nifty little bag for all the adapters and whatnot. For $100 you can get a kit that will charge pretty much literally any phone. Compatibility comes with a price tag...
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Well, there has been some moves to standardize the connector/voltage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIAJ_connector
However, I have seen few devices that actually use the standard.
good legislation would simply force apple/etc to include a adapter to mini-usb with the phone, capable of charging the phone efficiently. If bastard cable connector is still desired it's a external adapter. Appears apple would pass this requirement already, with the bundled packages. just need to be sure a usb adapter cable is in all phone packages.
It's interesting that Nokia is listed there...
A friend of mine recently got a new Nokia mobile. What's interesting is that while it has a USB port for data, it won't charge via it! It's good to see that they're trying to standardize it now.
Now, let's just see if they can't do something similar for mp3 players and the like ('m looking at you, Apple)...
Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
Apple already ships its power adaptors as nothing more than a mains to powered USB port. I use mine to charge my iphone, battery backup unit, camera...
So the only difference between the approach already taken by Apple and this is that I need different cables per device.. Still -alot- better than the current norm from other manufacturers.
My Ipod Nano (whatever the latest generation is) will not charge with firewire. There are a lot of accessories that have not been updated still (the stereo system I bought my wife for Christmas for example).
I told Verizon, as I kissed them goodbye, that I was tired of having 4 different phones over the years with 4 chargers. Even going from the LG enV to the enV2, I had a new charger (and new memory card... micro to miniSD). I already had an iPod, so no new car charger, wall charger, anything was required. As I write this my iPhone charges on my radio which has an iPod dock. I don't care if it's Firewire, USB (4, 6, mini), or iPod...just make it a standard connector someone might have another use for or from. Having 1 charger that ONLY works with 1 model of phone is the stupidest thing I've seen survive contact with oxygen and sunlight.