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Feds Demand Prison For Guns N' Roses Uploader

Defeat Globalism writes with this excerpt from Wired: "Federal prosecutors in Los Angeles are pursuing a 6-month prison term for a Los Angeles man who pleaded guilty in December to one misdemeanor count of uploading pre-release Guns N' Roses tracks, according to court documents. Kevin Cogill was arrested last summer at gunpoint and charged with uploading nine tracks of the Chinese Democracy album to his music site — antiquiet.com. The album, which cost millions and took 17 years to complete, was released November 23 and reached No. 3 in the charts. The sentence being sought — including the calculation of damages based on the illegal activity of as many as 1,310 websites that disseminated the music after Cogill released it — underscores how serious the government is about punishing those for uploading pre-release material."

590 comments

  1. He should go to prison, but not for... by tjstork · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Don't put him in prison for stealing the album. Shoot him for promoting it. 17 years and GNR gives us, what, a big pile of overrated crap.

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To be fair, he did disrespect a major record label. Isn't that a corporate offense that requires jail time?

    2. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by AmigaHeretic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're so right. A kid uploads a CD and should go to prison, but on a daily basis around here the jails are so full they release criminals constantly. They have some sort of computer program that tries to determine the "least bad" crimes and criminals and let those ones out first.

      People here in our county know for most crimes they will "maybe" spend a single night in jail for anything other then murder before they are let go the next day.

      It's a joke around here when litterally there is no room for rapists, drunk drivers, and other 'violent' criminals in jail, but some one uploads some MP3s and OH MY GOD, get him.. Give me freakin' break.


      It's like they talked about on that movie, on COPS (tv show) they'll have 3 cops chasing a guy down the street and beat him to the ground because he just stole $85. But some corporate criminal that steals $85,000,000.00 and well they treat him with kid gloves.

      Some people need a reality check.

    3. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by commodore64_love · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In other countries, "Disrespect for the president, legislature, or government" is grounds for jail time. In America it's "disrespect for a CEO, the board, or corporation" that leads to jail time.

      (shrug). If I was jailed for "stealing" works off the internet, then I'd figure I might as well go ahead & steal the real thing. Walmart here I come.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    4. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's like they talked about on that movie, on COPS (tv show) they'll have 3 cops chasing a guy down the street and beat him to the ground because he just stole $85. But some corporate criminal that steals $85,000,000.00 and well they treat him with kid gloves.

      Well, to be fair, that $85 won't get you much of a lawyer. But the $85 mil will get you a few good lawyers, and if you work it right, a congressman or two.

    5. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by tjstork · · Score: 1

      Amiga - Remember when computing was fun?

      I sure do. Back then, it was PERSONAL computing, not NETWORK computing.

      --
      This is my sig.
    6. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by tjstork · · Score: 1

      But the $85 mil will get you a few good lawyers, and if you work it right, a congressman or two.

      That's why the guy that stole $85 million dollars gets to see the guy that stole 85 dollars thrown into jail.

      --
      This is my sig.
    7. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by v1 · · Score: 1

      lets be fair here. congressmen are a lot cheaper than that...

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    8. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by WhatAmIDoingHere · · Score: 1

      Overrated? Did any reviewers actually say it was good?

      --
      Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
    9. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Kell+Bengal · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What I don't understand is why (FTFA) they arrested him with weapons drawn like he's a dangerous thug. What, might he at any moment whip out some freaky pirate-fu and delete them, their kittens and their backups using his bluetooth remote? And this in the same country where any suspected white-collar criminal will be escorted out of his plush penthouse office with a mere "Sir, please come with us."

      --
      Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
      altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
    10. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by MindlessAutomata · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "In other countries, "Disrespect for the president, legislature, or government" is grounds for jail time. In America it's "disrespect for a CEO, the board, or corporation" that leads to jail time."

      That's really silly and some of the complaints about capitalism here on Slashdot are really poor.

      First of all, you're completely equivocating on what is meant by "disrespect" here. "Disrespect" for the RIAA in this case is due to dogmatic adherence to an outdated view of property rights and even worse the idea that information can be copyrighted. And it wasn't for "stealing", it was for "providing." Well, it's true that the government only cares about the bigger fish in the sea here, but that's actually due to the nature of democracy, or our republic--the more "pull" or influence you have, the more you get shit done, and big businesses inherently get more influence.

      Don't take this as support for one-man-one-vote, though. Then politicians cater not to the so-called "elite", but the middle of the bell curve.

    11. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by AmigaHeretic · · Score: 2, Funny

      I sure do. Back then, it was PERSONAL computing, not NETWORK computing.

      Yeah, it's nice having a "personal" computer still in this day an age. By that I mean, I can do stuff on my computer and not worry it's being sent all over the internet by Microsoft or some piece of spyware that keeps me internet connection light down by my Windows clock blinking constantly.

      On my Amiga I can still convert a CD to MP3s and upload them with little worry of anyboady cathing me( at least if I'm connected to my neighbors wireless!) Oops, probably a bad thread for this I might get arrested! Uh, just kidding, I don't even on a CD-ROM drive!

    12. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You won't be stealing the real thing from Walmart, as all the naughty words have been taken out.

      Gotta go to Target for the real thing.

    13. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by budgenator · · Score: 1

      It's like they talked about on that movie, on COPS (tv show) they'll have 3 cops chasing a guy down the street and beat him to the ground because he just stole $85. But some corporate criminal that steals $85,000,000.00 and well they treat him with kid gloves.

      Some people need a reality check.

      Yup it's called don't resist arrest and get the shit beaten out of you for a 40hr community service rap.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    14. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think overhyped would be a better term for it. It was an mediocre G&R album. 17 years for that... wow (and not in a good way).

    15. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by AmigaHeretic · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Watch COPS sometime. People get man handled & 'beat down' while they are following all the commands the police are giving.

      And don't get me wrong, I am not against "the police", I have a family and thank god for the Police men/women that brave the streets everyday..... but you have to admit when they pull up to someguy on the street and grab him and force against their cruiser before he says or does anything, well, lets just say it would be fun to see it just one time to one the corporate guys that 'actually' destroy hundreds of peoples lives.

    16. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 5, Funny

      What I don't understand is why (FTFA) they arrested him with weapons drawn like he's a dangerous thug.

      The police were probably simply told that they were arresting a pirate. They thought he might whip out a cutlass or try to shoot them with a musket.

    17. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by El+Torico · · Score: 1

      In other countries, "Disrespect for the president, legislature, or government" is grounds for jail time. In America it's "disrespect for a CEO, the board, or corporation" that leads to jail time.

      Really? Go ahead and throw a shoe at the President if you want to prove that statement. Muntadhar al-Zeidi got three years in Iraq; anyone doing that in the US would probably get at least that much jail time.

      --
      In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is usually crucified.
    18. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by UncleTogie · · Score: 2, Informative

      Watch COPS sometime. People get man handled & 'beat down' while they are following all the commands the police are giving.

      I do, regularly.

      ...and I've yet to see the illegal beatdowns for compliant suspects. I've seen LOTS of people try to argue, pull their hands away, fight the cops, or run. As for unwarranted beatdown? Nothing yet, unless you can present an episode number that I missed.

      Don't get me wrong, crooked cops ARE out there; I've run into a few... But the cops *I* know are solid, want to help their community, and aren't in it for a power-trip. Y'know, the real cops.

      --
      Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
    19. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, it's true that the government only cares about the bigger fish in the sea here, but that's actually due to the nature of democracy, or our republic--the more "pull" or influence you have, the more you get shit done, and big businesses inherently get more influence.

      Businesses getting more influence is not democracy. That is a slide towards corporate government, commonly known as Fascism.

      Don't take this as support for one-man-one-vote, though. Then politicians cater not to the so-called "elite", but the middle of the bell curve.

      No, politicians do cater to the elite. The media is used to get those in the "middle of the bell curve" to vote for who the elite want. Why do you think Bush's popularity took so long to wane? All the information you needed to know how horrible his presidency was going to be was available before he even campaigned. Lots of people predicted that everything would get this bad under a Bush presidency. For fuck's sake, even the frigging Onion predicted this.

    20. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by CodeBuster · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I have just about given up hope that the complete and utter failure of "get tough on crime", War on Drugs, and police state laws will ever be understood by the average American living in suburban fantasy land. When fully two thirds of Americans cannot even name the three main branches of our government, let alone understand how they actually work, I fear that our grand experiment in democracy will not survive the rising tide of stupidity in 21st century America. We are becoming more and more like latin America, where a core minority elite do anything necessary to keep the masses living in the slums from invading the mansions situated on the surrounding hills and socialism, poverty, and populism are the rules of the day.

    21. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm friends with cops too and they've always been decent to me. I assume they're bastards on their job because they're cops. I've also got friends who are ex-cops who left because they're required to be asshats at work.

      You don't see beatdowns for compliant suspects because if COPS actually showed cops being cops, they wouldn't be allowed to tag along.

    22. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by jimicus · · Score: 1

      On my Amiga I can still convert a CD to MP3s and upload them with little worry of anyboady cathing me( at least if I'm connected to my neighbors wireless!) Oops, probably a bad thread for this I might get arrested! Uh, just kidding, I don't even on a CD-ROM drive!

      Given that the fastest processor ever fitted to a generally-available amiga was a 50MHz 68000 chip, I suspect the use of the singular to refer to the CD you convert to MP3 may be quite appropriate.

    23. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree, shooting the man is only fair. He had it coming. -- MAFIAA

    24. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The police were probably simply told that they were arresting a pirate. They thought he might whip out a cutlass or try to shoot them with a musket.

      So I guess the trick is to make police think I'm a vampire or something, hum...

    25. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      I haven't seen that behavior on COPS, but I've seen it on plenty of news shows (such as Dateline NBC's To Catch A Predator). I can't count how many times I've seen a guy doing every thing the cops say, is in no way remotely threatening either, and half a dozen cops tackle him and slam him on the ground.

      I know plenty of cops personally as well (both of my brothers are cops, and I'm friends with several of their police friends). However, I've come across enough cops on an ego trip to know that it's safer to assume the cop is crooked and find out he's nice than to assume he's nice and find out the hard way that he's just a jackass with a gun.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    26. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by mcpkaaos · · Score: 1

      It's like they talked about on that movie, on COPS (tv show) they'll have 3 cops chasing a guy down the street and beat him to the ground because he just stole $85. But some corporate criminal that steals $85,000,000.00 and well they treat him with kid gloves.

      Some people need a reality check.

      That is the reality check.

      --
      It goes from God, to Jerry, to me.
    27. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fastest 68k-only amigas were a 66MHz 68060 (and remember 68k always gave you more bang per megahertz, and the '060 was superscalar like the pentium)

      But the mid-to-late-90s amigas could be fitted with generally-available (though third-party) accelerator cards with both a 50 or 66 MHz '060 and a 166, 200 or 233 MHz PPC 603e on them.

      I assure you, my old amiga handled mp3 ripping just fine. I finally had to sell my amiga and move to a 400MHz x86 PC for compat with university-mandated software, and it kind of sucked (though fortunately I'd already been dual-booting linux on the amiga, so it wasn't that painful a transition to linux on x86).

    28. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by jonaskoelker · · Score: 1

      They thought he might whip out a cutlass

      Does he keep one next to his bed? ;)

    29. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyone who actually PAID for it should be put in prison.

    30. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple's overrated crap will run Linux unlike Chinese Democracy!

    31. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 0

      And it wasn't for "stealing", it was for "providing."

      Indeed. Kinda funny that they want him to go to prison for doing what we are all taught to do in pre-school - i.e. share with others.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    32. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Naturalis+Philosopho · · Score: 1

      LOL. That was the best troll I've seen in a long, long time. And it got you modded up! If I ever get into the trolling business, I'm going to use this post as a model.

      For those that missed the jokes: the police have never ever tried to actually "get tough on crime", they just pretend to to increase their power- it's way more fun to write traffic tickets. Laws can't be understood because you need a 6 year degree to understand the language, let along the content of the laws, and no one has the time to even read something as basic to a functioning society as the tax code; take a look at the tax code of even your state, I don't read that many pages in a year. The federal tax code takes a big room to even hold it all. Our "democracy" has been a lie for at least 100 years, since the populist movement was beaten down by the robber barons, and even longer if you're partial to arguments of the "separatists". South America is used as an example when basically any society would do, apparently just because it's so much fun to pick on those Spanish and Portuguese speaking people down there (get it?). The people who are holding down the masses are referred to as an "elite", which is great sarcasm, but set up to be misunderstood by those who don't actually know what the word means. And the use of "socialism, poverty, and populism" is great as it mixes political systems, economic conditions, and social philosophy into a melange that seems on it's face to be "bad" but on second glance is a confused muddle of conflicting sentiment and ideas; it reminds me of compassionate-conservative-communist-new-dealer-fascist. Bravo sir, you just passed off the best muddle I've seen in ages as "insightful".

    33. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by cromar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The unfortunate reality, which unfortunately (I don't think) is limited to America, is that if you are in a position to commit white collar crime, you almost certainly have access to high-paid lawyers who can make a lot of trouble for all parties involved in your crime (from banks to the police to the court to associates to politicians). Find a way to fix that and you will have a solution to a problem millennia old!

    34. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Those "Corporate Guys" get knocked around too it's just not physically, imagine getting used to having billions under your control then all of your property gets ceased and sold at auction, your accounts get frozen while the feds track down every penny you owned.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    35. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Kiuas · · Score: 1

      What I don't understand is why (FTFA) they arrested him with weapons drawn like he's a dangerous thug. What, might he at any moment whip out some freaky pirate-fu and delete them, their kittens and their backups using his bluetooth remote?

      This is yet one more of those things I can't quite grasp with america: The cops. I guess it all depends on which state you're living in but still, arresting a pirate at gunpoint? On behalf of the rest of the world: Wtf.

      I understand that certain criminals must be approached with caution but some of these things just boggle my mind. I've even seen clips where a cop pulls a car over for speeding and approaches it with his hand on his weapon because "they might have a gun". I guess it might be a real danger considering that guns are so common in the states.

      Still, we are pretty close when it comes to private gun ownership (IIRC Finland is 3rd on the list, USA being the first) and the "doctrines" of police are quite different: The police rarely draw their guns and every time someone is shot (at) by the police it's a big thing (it's always investigated - and reported in the news). Within the last year or so I can recall only one situation in which the police have opened fire.

      Of course I do realize that the US has a lot more citizens than Finland does and the nature of crimes is probably different (more violent crimes) but still I can't help thinking if the cops have embraced this cowboy-like style partly on purpose.

      And don't even get me started on the fact that they're seriously sending these guys to jail...

      DISCLAIMER: I have nothing against americans or anything, but some of these things just seem unbelievable to an outsider.

      --
      "It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
    36. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you can get NYCL for free!

    37. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Just curious, why did you say "for fuck's sake" and follow it with "frigging Onion?"

      Why not "for frig's sake" and "fucking Onion"?

    38. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      17 years and GNR gives us, what, a big pile of overrated crap.

      Don't forget, this is an album that cost them "millions" to make.

      I'm confident that not buying this album, or downloading a pirated copy, is the best thing you could do to promote a healthy future for music and musicians.

      Shit, I wouldn't listen to it, but I might download an illegal copy just to do the right thing.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    39. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Using an entirely different word "share", yes. Share didn't generally mean "Give someone else their own copy of something", that definition is recent, and is based upon a misuse of the term "file share", where a "shared drive" on a network was made synonymous with the content on it.

      Claiming that parents encouraged you in your youth to do what you now call "sharing" is a little like creating a new definition for "safe driving" that means "Using a drill to enter a safe without the owner's permission and remove the contents", and then claiming your driving instructor and thousands of government safety films "encouraged" you to break into safes.

    40. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True. You can buy a congressman for $350k-$500k these days. It only takes a few million to win a campaign, and they usually have many masters to please. You can probably buy "consideration" for a lot less. Of course, if you want the congressman all to yourself, you'll need to shell out 2-3 million every two years, which can get expensive.

    41. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 1

      I pledge allegiance to the dollar of the United Corporations of America. And revenue for which they make. One Nation, under CEO, indivisible, with DRM and injustice for all.

    42. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is a little unfair to call drunk drivers violent criminals.

      Are they criminals according to the law? Yes. But consider this: Is a mother who kills a kid while driving, because she was distracted by her 2 year old in the back seat, a violent criminal? In both cases someone dies.

      Drunk driving is a problem, but using the same terminology which which we use to describe murders and rapists, confuses the issue, and it's causes and potential solutions.

    43. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What I don't understand is why (FTFA) they arrested him with weapons drawn like he's a dangerous thug.

      First and foremost, to spend tax dollars, and to justify more revenue for the business of government. Second, to condition the populace to accept that non-violent crimes are best solved with violence.

    44. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by cliffski · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      so fucking what?
      The record company wasted time and money, not you?
      Are you a record company shareholder?
      No?
      Then quit whining.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    45. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real crime is GNR spending millions of dollars making such an awful album.....

    46. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by msormune · · Score: 1

      It was actually a pretty good rock album. Nothing spectacular, but pretty good.

    47. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Al+Dimond · · Score: 1

      I agree somewhat -- there's a difference between committing a crime maliciously and committing one carelessly. But some things we do must be done with care, or else the danger to others is unacceptable. And people do die and are injured when care is not taken. Driving is like that. If you drive drunk or while talking on a cell phone (hands-free or not, as studies show it doesn't make much of a difference) or while fucking downloading a ringtone (as this one idiot did in central Illinois, ran onto the shoulder, killed a cyclist, and managed to only get community service) you are neglecting your responsibility in a very dangerous way. It's still a serious crime.

      And, sure, the causes and solutions are different. But we're not talking about that, we're talking about severity. Drunk driving is severely irresponsible and I think it's perfectly acceptable to group people with such disregard to their responsibility with those who commit crimes deliberately.

    48. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by pentalive · · Score: 1

      It's like they talked about on that movie, on COPS (tv show) they'll have 3 cops chasing a guy down the street and beat him to the ground because he just stole $85. But some corporate criminal that steals $85,000,000.00 and well they treat him with kid gloves.

      I am guessing the cops did not have to chase the $85,000,000.00 criminal down the street. And when that criminal is arrested he goes quietly.

    49. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by antiZ · · Score: 1

      Given that the fastest processor ever fitted to a generally-available amiga was a 50MHz 68000 chip, I suspect the use of the singular to refer to the CD you convert to MP3 may be quite appropriate.

      Wrong. Amiga went through pretty much the whole 680x0 serie. I think the last one was a 68060 60 MHz. Just a little slower then the first PowerPC (200/201?).

    50. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by causality · · Score: 1

      You're so right. A kid uploads a CD and should go to prison, but on a daily basis around here the jails are so full they release criminals constantly. They have some sort of computer program that tries to determine the "least bad" crimes and criminals and let those ones out first.

      People here in our county know for most crimes they will "maybe" spend a single night in jail for anything other then murder before they are let go the next day.

      It's a joke around here when litterally there is no room for rapists, drunk drivers, and other 'violent' criminals in jail, but some one uploads some MP3s and OH MY GOD, get him.. Give me freakin' break.

      You can thank the War on (Some) Drugs for that one, as well as all of the naive, ignorant, well-meaning individuals who never heard of the Law of Unintended Consequences who continue to support it. The War on (Some) Drugs led to a practice known as "proactive policing" and both of them have worked together to ensure that the USA has the highest percentage of its population in prison. Many of these prisons are privately owned and quite profitable and you can bet that the companies which own them employ lobbyists.

      If we can legitimize the use of overwhelming state police power against adult people because we dislike what they choose to do with their own bodies, even when they quite clearly are harming no one other than themselves, then it should be little surprise that this has led to the situation that you describe. You may think that this isn't directly related to the issue you raise but that issue had a predecessor which helped to pave the way for this sort of hysteria and injustice. You are dealing with what you might call "social technology" or machinery. It is a system that accepts an arbitrary input, processes it, and produces a desired output (desired by our rulers, that is). The input can be "drugs" or it can be "copyrighted music" or anything really, the processing is the hysteria and the situational ethics and the demonization, while the output is gross injustice and dehumanization and all of the problems that go with it that you have highlighted. It is dehumanization because the message they reinforce is that the lifeless corporation is somehow more important than real human beings.

      It was Henry David Thoreau who once said, "there are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." Drugs, piracy, etc. are the branches. The absence of real love that would never permit one to view your fellow human beings as exploitable resources or objects of power and control is the root. The systems and social technologies and their goal of demoralizing the people and intimidating through injustice so that they feel powerless is the means. Never underestimate the power of seeing how simple this really is.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    51. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by sumdumass · · Score: 3, Informative

      The article is inflammatory BS. You don't go to prison for misdemeanors. You go to jail for misdemeanors. They are entirely different places and if you had been to either, you would know how different they are. The six months sentence hanging over his head will not be a prison sentence at all and that is half the maximum time which is also the minimum time anyone can face for a class A misdemeanor offense. (1 year for federal misdemeanors and mostly 6 months max for state misdemeanors)

      Now according to the original offense which wasn't a misdemeanor, it was a felony charge, he could have been facing 10 years in prison (not jail), because of the supposed retail value of the songs he distributed or caused to be distributed.

      The was actually a treated as a mass bootleg case and not a file sharing case because he supposedly "willfully infringed a copyright for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain." The problem he laid in front of them is that he admitted to doing it and helped identify where he got the files from. But this case isn't the ordinary "junior put the new album on the lime wire interweb".

      His lawyer has a different take on it which would follow the pre-sentencing guidelines that recommended 1 years probation. He makes some pretty good points in it and I think this will probably be closer to what happens.

      You have to understand that this case is a big political charade. Obama has brought in some RIAA lawyers to help run the hope and Change you can believe in but I don't think they are the problems here (could be but it's just me). It's more of a- they made a big issue out of his site being a commercial venture in order to force information out of him. They offered a reduced charge based his cooperation in telling them everything he knew to help the government in finding who originally released the songs. (according to his lawyers, it could have been the record industry itself or axel rose himself). He took the deal and now in order for there to be a "deterrent" the government has to appear like they are wanting the most they can get in order to have the deterrent factor be present. The judge will likely claim that his cooperation with investigators and mitigating factors like his actions to prevent down-loaders supersedes the Deterrent factor and sentencing guild lines and either negate any jail time with probation or list his jail time as the time he spent waiting bail after they raided him and credit him with time served. If he spent a week in jail, he would probably get 7 days- time served and 1 year probation or possibly 6 months suspended sentence on the completion of 1 years probation or something of the sort. But the point is to keep up appearances. The judge has quite a bit of leeway on this despite that class A misdemeanors have a minimum of 6 months.

    52. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by bob.appleyard · · Score: 1

      That is a slide towards corporate government, commonly known as Fascism.

      Corporatism doesn't mean that corporations take over the government. It's a political/economic system where groups of people are held to be the basic units of society, rather than individuals. These groups (which can include unions and the like) are referred to as corporations, but not in the sense of publicly traded limited liability companies, but in the sense of the Catholic Church being a "corporate entity." These corporations could have some kind of official representation, and could be tied to some state-granted monopoly. Under Fascism in Italy, these entities were mere extensions of the state, and bowed to its wishes. In other countries that have practised corporatism, such as Australia, it has taken a softer tone: there "the accord" had unions promising wage restraint in exchange for greater welfare commitments. In this case, as in others, it was more an extension of collective bargaining, which can occur alongside a relatively free, capitalist country.

      --
      How dare you be so modest!! You conceited bastard!!
    53. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I have noticed a long time ago that those "cops" shows are little more then propaganda tools so the police can make people think they have less rights then they do. It's all about giving you the impression that the police can do something that they can't.

      I remember seeing one oncident where they pulled a guy over for speeding, cuffed him and sat him on the curb, then searched his car. They took the keys out of the ignition and opened a locked consol in the center of the car and found a gun. They claimed it was loaded and arrested him on that charge. The interesting thing is that I remembered this going through the courts, the guy fought the gun charge because the cops powers to search the cars for their safety only extend to within the reach of the people inside it and locked compartments aren't considered with reach because it requires a separate action that would alert the officers to their safety. This case played out in court before they ever showed it on TV. Yet there was no mention to the guy getting the gun charge dropped or that the cop was in the wrong. I have seen that same episode rerun 3 or 4 times in the same ways.

      They pull people over for tinted windows and find Coke stashed in the trunk. What the hell do they need to look in the trunk for because of tinted windows? They always find something on people, and at the end, your left with the impression that the cops were just doing their jobs. But stopping someone who is walking down the street and harassing them until he runs and they find a rock of crack on him doesn't seem like the proper job of the police. I don't know if they make this up or if cops really do think they can pick someone they don't like and start harassing them for no reason in particular. But it is one of those they do it because they can things and most people don't know they can't do half the shit on those shows because you as a citizen of these great united states have rights.

    54. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anon1072 · · Score: 1

      Watch COPS sometime. People get man handled & 'beat down' while they are following all the commands the police are giving.

      Yeah, I know.. God, I love that show!

    55. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      I been saying for years we need to cut all the bullshit and get rid of the lame ass old national anthem and replace it with "Mighty Mighty Dollar Bill". Hell with all the payoffs we see of our congress critters and presidents we might as well just be honest. I also propose that from now on CSPAN run a banner at the bottom whenever congress critters are speaking that says "This person was bought from you by" and have the banners of the corporations that paid him/her off this week. After all, they have already perverted our laws most likely beyond repair, might as well let them get maximum value from their bribery.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    56. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't put him in prison for stealing the album. Shoot him for promoting it. 17 years and GNR gives us, what, a big pile of overrated crap.

      How true. But what is really shocking is that is approximately 3x as long as it took to produce Vista. Coincidence?

    57. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by easyTree · · Score: 1

      To be fair, he did disrespect a major record label. Isn't that a corporate offense that requires jail time?

      Yep, it is but there are doubtless those that don't realise that it's the fact that he outed one of the pieces of shit that they're profiting from, that caused the offence.

      PS. Spending 16.5 years being a drunk/crack-head and 6 months having someone else write an album in your style != spending 17 years writing an album.

    58. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there is no room for rapists, drunk drivers, and other 'violent' criminals in jail, but some one uploads some MP3s and OH MY GOD, get him.

      Please understand that the kinds of places that rich people frequent, and the environment in which they live, keep them relatively safe from crimes like murder and rape, but their wealth is very dependent on the modern electronic economy, and as such file sharing poses a much greater threat.

      And if you ever believed that the government exists to serve anyone other than the rich, then I have a bridge to sell you...

    59. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by easyTree · · Score: 1

      For fuck's sake, even the frigging Onion predicted this

      What I love about Boosh is his facial expression. It says "I can't believe you suckers are letting me get away with this shit. Shame on you!"

    60. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by DaFallus · · Score: 1

      What I don't understand is why (FTFA) they arrested him with weapons drawn like he's a dangerous thug. What, might he at any moment whip out some freaky pirate-fu and delete them, their kittens and their backups using his bluetooth remote? And this in the same country where any suspected white-collar criminal will receive a phone call from the DA or chief of police to arrange for surrender at their earliest convenience."

      I think that is a little more accurate.

      --
      No one cares what your captcha was

      Houston TX, USA
    61. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by easyTree · · Score: 1

      Don't you get the sense that collectively, humanity has reached a certain point of awareness. That 'our leaders' have realised this and are cramming-in as many abuses as possible whilst they still have the opportunity?

    62. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep... this is definitely a Linux GNU crowd. People are supposed to just give away their work after spending a huge amount of time and money creating. Yeh... 17 years is a bit much, but that is just hyperbole anyway. They likely only took a few months max to record it. But recording studios cost a lot of money, time for technicians and engineers, marketing, lost revenue, etc etc etc. But hell, you think the same way about other people's software: you have to give it away or don't use my open source software... well sort of open source... you can't really do what you want with it unless you do what I want you to do with it. And I think you should let everyone in the world have the right to copy and give away what you just worked months or years on so that others can put to waste all the time for engineers and tester, marketing, lost revenue (wow... sounds like what you guys like to do to the recording industry), and go to poor house paying off all the bills while no longer having any revenue... Yes, mod me troll for speaking the truth. You guys are pathetic. We don't think it is right to punish someone for theft. Do the crime, do the time.

    63. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by perlchild · · Score: 1

      There was a solution, but it got abused...

      The solution: send the same policemen to arrest every criminal. The ones that protest(hopefully the least nice) get thrown in jail longer.

      The politicians kinda put the kibosh on it since. Maybe they didn't understand it.

    64. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if he really did have freaky pirate-fu he could have just turned their guns into walkie-talkies.

    65. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by triffid_98 · · Score: 1
      "after colleagues of Deputy James Council led him from a possible crime scene without drug or alcohol testing after he killed two bicyclists and almost killed a third. He was seen by witnesses driving erratically before plowing into the Third Pillar Racing Team."

      "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

      -- George Orwell,Animal Farm

      Driving is like that. If you drive drunk or while talking on a cell phone (hands-free or not, as studies show it doesn't make much of a difference) or while fucking downloading a ringtone (as this one idiot did in central Illinois, ran onto the shoulder, killed a cyclist, and managed to only get community service) you are neglecting your responsibility in a very dangerous way. It's still a serious crime.

    66. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Acapulco · · Score: 1

      Isn't there a saying that goes
      ... Kill a man and you will be called a murderer. Kill a million and you will be called a hero.

      ??
      Substitute for money..and there you go. No?

      --
      Slashdot. Unreadable news to annoy nerds. - wonkey_monkey
    67. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What I don't understand is why (FTFA) they arrested him with weapons drawn like he's a dangerous thug.

      Maybe they were afraid he'd break into song?

    68. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the jails are so full they release criminals constantly. They have some sort of computer program that tries to determine the "least bad" crimes and criminals and let those ones out first.

      Really? Where exactly are you talking about? Here in Colorado, we only release 2% of inmates that, due to good behavior, are eligible for parole. The ones that are released early are ones that are statistically likely to re-offend or break parole rules and be sent back to prison. This give the public the impression that releasing inmates early doesn't do any good because they "always" end up back in jail. The end result is that it makes politicians look like they are tough on crime because the prisons are overcrowded.

      Prisons should only be used to keep dangerous people off the streets until they are rehabilitated. There are plenty of punishments (fines, house arrest, etc.) that will teach people the lesson they need to not re-offend.

    69. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      *applause*
      posting to undo accidental moderation.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    70. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Using an entirely different word "share", yes. Share didn't generally mean "Give someone else their own copy of something",

      You can pick your own definition to suit your argument. My definition of sharing has always been to give to others something that I have, especially if I have plenty. Contrived etymology on your part doesn't really change the definition I learned in pre-school.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    71. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by AmigaHeretic · · Score: 1

      I know you're just joking, but incase anyone is reading this, the 50MHZ Figure is actually a little off. AmigaOS4.x was released a couple years ago for G4 running 1ghz plus.

      x86 variant of AmigaOS runs well, on x86 so multi GHZ.

      A lot of people though run emulation with JIT on x86 and it runs roughly equivalent to a 1.5GHZ 680x0 chip.

      AmigaOS 4.1 was just recently released for the SAM PPC board.

    72. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by MindlessAutomata · · Score: 1

      You're equivocating and you're stretching the lessons of sharing.

    73. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by okmijnuhb · · Score: 1

      Yes, justice costs money.
      If you have even more money, you can buy injustice.

    74. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by damburger · · Score: 1

      So let me get this straight... you blame socialism for the inequality in latin america? Funnily enough, I blame the lack thereof.

      --
      If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
    75. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      You're equivocating and you're stretching the lessons of sharing.

      Sure bub, whatever you say.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    76. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Rocketship+Underpant · · Score: 1

      I've only seen one episode of COPS. In each of the first two segments, cops pulled guns and *fired* on people pulled over for minor traffic infractions. The numbnuts narrator was gushing with enthusiasm for the cops' heroism in shooting at these unarmed civilians. I turned off the TV in disgust.

      --
      He who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.
    77. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This was a white-collar crime.

    78. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      This was a white-collar crime.

      This kid doesn't have a collar. He wears t-shirts. Like we do.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    79. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Darby · · Score: 1

      ...and I've yet to see the illegal beatdowns for compliant suspects. I've seen LOTS of people try to argue, pull their hands away, fight the cops, or run. As for unwarranted beatdown? Nothing yet, unless you can present an episode number that I missed.

      I've seen it live plenty of times. A huge number of cops *are* scum who will abuse the weak at any opportunity.

      Don't get me wrong, crooked cops ARE out there; I've run into a few... But the cops *I* know are solid, want to help their community, and aren't in it for a power-trip. Y'know, the real cops.

      I'd imagine even a lot of the ones you think aren't bad have done things for which they should be locked up for for a long time. There are a lot more dirty cops than I suspect that you would be willing to believe, no matter how many proven cases we see and no matter that that is far and away the most covered up type of crime.

      You just have to look at the laws we have these days, from this copyright lunacy, to drug laws and the rest of the unconstitutional crap to see that our laws are not designed to help the communities. Therefore, it doesn't matter SFA what you think about your friends. they are not capable of simultaneously doing their jobs and helping their communities. Drug laws alone have done more damage to our communities that anything cops help with. Toss that in with the rest of the laws passed for the benefit of the prison industry, and it's really quite obvious that no decent person could possibly be a cop in America today. The job does not allow it anymore.

    80. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by pmarini · · Score: 1

      repeat after me:
      stealing a CD from a shelf is not the same as infringing a law about its content
      stealing a CD from a shelf is not the same as infringing a law about its content
      stealing a CD from a shelf is not the same as infringing a law about its content
      stealing a CD from a shelf is not the same as infringing a law about its content

      --
      Can I put a spell on those who can't spell?
      Your wheels are loose and they're losing their grip, good you're there.
    81. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      in corporate America you get nailed harder if you mess with the corporate overlords? how come?

    82. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it was $85 billion.

      captcha: balloons

    83. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Fluffeh · · Score: 1

      On my Amiga I can still convert a CD to MP3s and upload them with little worry of anyboady cathing me

      Cathing you... as in inserting a catheter? Ewww! You live around some strange people!

      --
      Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
    84. Re:He should go to prison, but not for... by Fluffeh · · Score: 1

      To be fair, he did disrespect a major record label. Isn't that a corporate offense that requires jail time?

      While this is slashdot, and I am aware that all comments around record labels and recording industry need to be taken with a shaker of salt, would we be reacting differently to this if someone had say, stolen a document with Steven Kings latest work and put it up on a website before it was published, or perhaps the latest Harry Potter hash?

      Sure, they are musicians who have lived the golden life for the past twenty something years, and I am sure that they don't have to go through the menial tasks that make up most people's lives, but for goodness sake, at least let them put their wares on the marketplace BEFORE someone reviews it and says what a horrible trumped up waste of time it is.

      In a way, this may have actually worked in their favour though. Look at my logic here:

      1) GNR takes 17 years to make a pile of steaming trash.
      2) Can't sell copies as album is steaming trash.
      3) Needs to find a scapegoat for "lost sales OMG OMG" as consumers refusing to buy steaming trash.
      4) Find some sod who uploads album to hs website prior to sales.
      5) PROFIT??

      --
      Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
  2. RIAA got its wish by nurb432 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Now tax dollars will be used to keep them in business instead of producing decent products. Federal criminal agents will be involved in what is a civil court issue.

    Tho many will say 'good, jail him he's a bad person', few will understand what is really going on here.

    Freedom takes another hit.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:RIAA got its wish by conureman · · Score: 1

      Prima fascia, this does seem like a civil issue, but IANAL. Wouldn't it be ironic to hold corporations' Directors criminally liable for the shit they are culpable of?

      --
      The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
    2. Re:RIAA got its wish by Jurily · · Score: 1

      Tho many will say 'good, jail him he's a bad person', few will understand what is really going on here.

      Yeah, really bad. Tell me again: how many bankers, ex-presidents and the like have been arrested at gunpoint for fucking up the economy?

    3. Re:RIAA got its wish by zappepcs · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, really bad. Tell me again: how many bankers, ex-presidents and the like have been arrested at gunpoint for fucking up the economy?

      Yes, none so far. Madoff is gone, and if Jon Stewart has any say more will follow him. There is a disproportionate use of the justice system in the USA. Upload some songs or smoke a little weed and you are a federal criminal. Steal millions or billions from the people's pocket and you simply made a mistake, one that deserves more money to help you out.

      Justice might be blind, but fairness doesn't seem to come with that particular malady.

    4. Re:RIAA got its wish by GoodNicksAreTaken · · Score: 1

      GNR isn't bringing out a new album, Chinese Democracy is the new government they are bringing to the US through their law suits. You don't honestly believe it could take over a decade to produce some crusty hair rock tracks?

    5. Re:RIAA got its wish by Darkness404 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The sad part is, I honestly don't think GNR really cares that this guy uploaded their CD, but because they sold their souls to the RIAA, the RIAA can sue this person to pieces and GNR won't receive a penny of it.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    6. Re:RIAA got its wish by bkgood · · Score: 1

      Are you suggesting citizen's arrest?

    7. Re:RIAA got its wish by guyminuslife · · Score: 1

      It would be great, but guess who buys the lobbyists? Nobody is above the law, but some people make sure the law doesn't apply to them.

      --
      I don't believe in time. It's a grand conspiracy designed to sell watches.
    8. Re:RIAA got its wish by garett_spencley · · Score: 1

      I don't know about that. Axl Rose is known for jumping off-stage and attacking fans who video tape concerts..

    9. Re:RIAA got its wish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this case involves the fact that the defendant committed a criminal act by breaking into the computers and taking them.

    10. Re:RIAA got its wish by cliffski · · Score: 1

      what freedom is this?
      freedom to take something somebody else spent a decade making, and ditribute it for free before they do?
      In what fucked up world is this a freedom we should feel entitled to?
      What about a musicians freedom to control the exloitation of their work?
      I have zero sympathy for the kid. He knew what he was doing.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
  3. Re:fp by uxbn_kuribo · · Score: 5, Funny

    it only took two hundred years to go from "I regret that I have but one life to give for my country," to, "eat my asshole." :(

    --
    No portion of this post may be rebroadcast without the express, written consent of Major League Baseball.
  4. Has beens by future+assassin · · Score: 1

    Considering how has been they are he did them a favor. He should be commended on letting people know in advanced so they wouldn't waste their money on this album.

    --
    by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
    1. Re:Has beens by aurispector · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's exactly why he's being prosecuted. The corporation's constitutional right to sell expensive crap is being trampled!

      --
      I have mod points. The reign of terror begins now.
  5. WARNING: If you upload Chinese Democracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    You will get a taste of Chinese Democracy.

    And you will not be hungry for it an hour later.

  6. Gun Point? by areusche · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! This has got to be one of the most excessive police actions ever. Sending a man to jail for a non-violent offense. I hate this country's legal system.

    1. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, come on, they should have executed him on the spot. He's obviously guilty of a heinous crime and must pay dearly.

    2. Re:Gun Point? by will_die · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If decide to create a petition I am sure you can get Martha Stewart and bernie madoff to sign.

    3. Re:Gun Point? by jshackney · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! This has got to be one of the most excessive police actions ever. Sending a man to jail for a non-violent offense. I hate this country's legal system.

      Going to jail for nonviolent crimes isn't new and it certainly isn't an exclusive feature of the U.S.'s judicial system. At least, he's not very likely to die during his time served. Y'all might want to send him some soap-on-a-rope though.

    4. Re:Gun Point? by commodore64_love · · Score: 3, Insightful

      >>>This has got to be one of the most excessive police actions ever. Sending a man to jail for a non-violent offense.

      We've been doing that for a long time. Like imprisoning those who steal someone's property. We also jail people for tax fraud, or investment fraud (like that Madoff guy). So yes jailing people for non-violent offenses is acceptable.

      Now that we got that out of the way, the question is: did this person commit a crime? IMHO he did. He did the equivalent of taking somebody's work without payment. If you disagree, consider this: You spend a year of your life developing a program, with plans to sell it for income, but instead I simply TAKE the program off bittorrent. I have stolen your labor without just compensation.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    5. Re:Gun Point? by Jurily · · Score: 1

      Sending a man to jail for a non-violent offense.

      It isn't even a crime. Civil suit at best.

    6. Re:Gun Point? by SupremoMan · · Score: 1

      ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! This has got to be one of the most excessive police actions ever. Sending a man to jail for a non-violent offense. I hate this country's legal system.

      Are you kidding me? So you think Bernie Madoff should walk? Plenty of people who commit nonviolent crimes deserve prison, some even the chair.

    7. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is it not a crime?

      He STOLE (yes stole) material that was not released to the general public from its makers.

    8. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      There is a legal definition of labor theft, and that isn't it.

    9. Re:Gun Point? by Niris · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      If they do send him to jail, it makes me wonder what kind of prison he'd be in. Anything with violent criminals where he would be facing ass rape would be damn good grounds for a lot of people to say fuck the government and burn down a bunch of buildings iimo . "You can't fight city hall, but you sure can burn it down"

    10. Re:Gun Point? by Jurily · · Score: 1

      STOLE (yes stole)

      Copied. Or did he delete the original after he was done?

    11. Re:Gun Point? by lukas84 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      So Maddoff shouldn't go to jail either?

    12. Re:Gun Point? by conureman · · Score: 1

      Okay, we'll call that a simile since it's not quite precisely what the perp did. I suggest a civil court should determine the amount of damages, and award the copyright holders with X dollars, which debt can't be erased through bankruptcy, &c. The difference between stealing a loaf of bread and copying bits of data is profoundly greater than the difference between stealing a wallet at knifepoint vs: swindling widow's pensions, which our Fearless Leaders have actually differentiated. In other words, I disagree with the misdemeanor definition of this crime.

      --
      The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
    13. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well *I* it would be *much* more appropriate for Bernie Madoff to not go to jail, but rather to be forced to pay back all the people he bilked out of their money. And should he just so happen not to have the cash on hand (offshore accounts lol), well then, let him be gainfully employed and just garnish his salary to the point where he spends his days as a wage slave choking down ramen noodles in an inner-city one-bedroom apartment.

    14. Re:Gun Point? by Logic+Bomb · · Score: 1

      ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! This has got to be one of the most excessive police actions ever. Sending a man to jail for a non-violent offense. I hate this country's legal system.

      Bernard Madoff, the people who ran Enron, and other perpetrators of massive fraud shouldn't go to jail? Someone who runs an oil tanker aground, destroying wilderness, shouldn't go to jail? Someone who launches massive DOS attacks shouldn't go to jail?

      Wow, you're an idiot.

    15. Re:Gun Point? by v1 · · Score: 1

      How is it not a crime?

      He STOLE (yes stole) material that was not released to the general public from its makers.

      If you want to get technical about it, stealing (theft) is depriving someone of their property. Unless you are counting money (lost income) as the property, (and legally it doesn't usually work that way) nothing was stolen. copyright infringement is not theft

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    16. Re:Gun Point? by WhatAmIDoingHere · · Score: 1

      10/10

      --
      Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
    17. Re:Gun Point? by Darkness404 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yah, and we all know how great debtors prison worked out. Honestly, for all non-violent offenses there should be no jail time whatsoever. It seems like we are using jail time as more or less a "time out" rather then to keep all the violent criminals off the street (the reason jails should be used), and theres a reason why our prisons are overcrowded, we seem to send people to prison for trivial offenses (like this one), or for offenses that are totally nonviolent in nature (tax evasion, etc).

      Our country really needs to take a look at the purpose of government before we do anything else. We are becoming closer and closer to a dictatorship, we already have (basically) a one-party system (for all intents and purposes, democrats and republicans are the same party), government-censored media, in some cases government controlled media, our constitution is becoming nothing more then an illusion, the bill of rights seem to be disappearing faster then ever, and our government is pursuing part-ownership in several businesses (the media calls it a bailout).

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    18. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So lets suppose he just made copies of all of Boeing's financial data, supply contracts and aircraft designs.

      Copyright infringement? I doubt it.

      More like industrial espionage.

      If the work HASN'T been released how is it copyright infringement because NO ONE has been authorized to reproduce it.

    19. Re:Gun Point? by Darkness404 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So yes jailing people for non-violent offenses is acceptable.

      No, no, no, just because our country seems to think that all bad people should go to jail, doesn't mean that its right. Tell me, what is the purpose of jail? It is not a "time out" like our country seems to think it is, it is where you should put violent criminals so they no longer terrorize the street until they are reformed. Yes, as in, full civil rights, etc when they get out. We wonder why we have overcrowded prisons, well this is why.

      Is what they are doing good? No. But put them on house arrest, forbid them for taking public money, make them pay reparations to those they have defrauded. Madoff is a bad person, I'm sure we can all agree on that, but is he a danger if he lives next door? Is your life or property in danger if he comes to your house? No. Therefore, he should not be sent to jail. Similarly tax fraud should be the same way, if they aren't a danger to the passerby then they should not be jailed, plain and simple.

      he did the equivalent of taking somebody's work without payment

      Sure, but if your boss doesn't pay you, does that make him a violent criminal? No. He should have to pay you for your work, but should he have to go to jail at taxpayer expense. Heck no.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    20. Re:Gun Point? by BlueStrat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Now that we got that out of the way, the question is: did this person commit a crime? IMHO he did. He did the equivalent of taking somebody's work without payment. If you disagree, consider this: You spend a year of your life developing a program, with plans to sell it for income, but instead I simply TAKE the program off bittorrent. I have stolen your labor without just compensation.

      What if the world has changed in such a way that intending to "sell" some easily-copied series of ones and zeros is no longer a viable business plan? Should medieval scribes have convinced the King to have Gutenberg burned at the stake or have him thrown him in a dungeon and his invention destroyed? Should the horse-carriage and buggy-whip makers have had Henry Ford imprisoned?

      Selling something is business. Business is risk. The world changes, peoples' tastes change. There are no guarantees of continuing profit. Should the Lawrence Welk estate have had Elvis Presley and Chuck Berry imprisoned because their "rock n' roll" destroyed the incomes of thousands that profited from "Big Band", jazz, and other musical styles?

      The ability to make a profit from a particular business model is an opportunity, not a right. The only way to guarantee future profitability of current business models is to halt all scientific, technological, and cultural/societal change or progress.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    21. Re:Gun Point? by Hugonz · · Score: 2, Informative

      This post is so misleading and so wrong... you managed to put together all the fallacies there are about intellectual property.

      Please take a look at this, and start forgetting about the labor theory of value (or property)

      http://tinyurl.com/5c4289

    22. Re:Gun Point? by st0rmshad0w · · Score: 1

      So how exactly do you punish someone who steals $50 billion?

    23. Re:Gun Point? by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      Look, as much as we want our corporate overlords to go to jail, they do not belong there (along with 95% of the people we send to jail).

      If Martha Stewart or Bernie Madoff lived next to you, would your life, property, freedom, or the lives of your family be threatened? No. They do not belong in jail. Should they be on house arrest where they can not run their company? Yes. Should they be forced to pay money to those they defrauded? Yes. But should they be in jail? No.

      Similarly, non-violent "crimes" should not go to jail either, smoking marijuana for example should not land you in jail, smoking marijuana and driving and you end up killing someone, they should go to jail. Copyright infringement? No jail. Drunk Driving and killing or seriously injuring someone? Yes. Murder? Yes. Rape? Yes. Violent theft? Yes. Petty theft? No.

      Jail should be reserved for violent crimes. Fines, house arrest, probation, etc should be used for all non violent crimes. The fact we throw everyone into jail for the most trivial things is what is creating our overcrowding prisons. Why should I have to pay for Madoff to live in jail when he can pay his own way and have house arrest + major fines along with paying those he defrauded?

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    24. Re:Gun Point? by Darkness404 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Make them pay the $50 billion out to those investors he stole from. Sell all of his assets, use that to pay for some of it, if he didn't pay his taxes let the government take that out of there. If there is not $50 billion when everything is liquefied, garnish his wages for the rest of his life until he pays all $50 billion. Sure, even if he lives to be 1000 he might not be able to pay all of it, but its better that he has to work towards it being payed off then just being in jail and those who he scammed get little to nothing.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    25. Re:Gun Point? by budgenator · · Score: 1

      He isn't allowed soap on a rope there, but if he pisses off the wrong people he might get some soap in a sock up side his head.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    26. Re:Gun Point? by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      Take away the $50 billion, put them on curfew, force them to change old people's diapers a couple of days a week, bring back the Victorian-style work machines (you have to turn a heavy wheel 2000 times per day), etc. Use your imagination...

      The one thing you SHOULDN'T do is take away every chance they might have to contribute to society (and actually turn them into a burden...) by locking them in a prison.

      As others have said, prison should be reserved for violent people, people who will physically harm others (or their property).

      --
      No sig today...
    27. Re:Gun Point? by budgenator · · Score: 1

      1. he'll probably serve his time in a jail rather than a prison.
      2. prisoners are psychologically assessed and incarcerated with prisoners with similar psychological profiles.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    28. Re:Gun Point? by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      He could spend his days fixing up the houses of all the people he bilked - painting, mowing their lawns, etc.

      Take away all his luxuries, put him on curfew, make him serve, it wouldn't add up to much but it would make a lot of greedy bastards think twice.

      --
      No sig today...
    29. Re:Gun Point? by garett_spencley · · Score: 1

      "Now that we got that out of the way, the question is: did this person commit a crime? IMHO he did. He did the equivalent of taking somebody's work without payment. If you disagree, consider this: You spend a year of your life developing a program, with plans to sell it for income, but instead I simply TAKE the program off bittorrent. I have stolen your labor without just compensation."

      I have a very hard time following that logic. Under no natural law has the person been deprived of anything. The program is still available to him. Only because of an institutional barrier granting him forcefully-enforced exclusive ability to distribute his work can we even start to approach the deprivation argument.

      Without getting into right vs. wrong (which is entirely subjective anyway), you can easily claim that presently the authority is depriving the rest of society of an artistic creation. There is no inherent natural "right" to "own" what you create. If my neighbour has a slab of stone on his driveway and I carve a statue out of it I do not own the slab. If I invent a song and sing it aloud in front of a group of people there is no natural law that would grant me the exclusive ownership over that creation.

      You may argue that one would not create without such institutional deprivation but as an artist myself I would not agree. That fallacy confuses the creative genius with the entrepreneur. Under a system with no institutional monopoly on the distribution of creative works an entrepreneur would be free take measures to guard his creations if he so chooses, but in such a world creative artistic endeavours would be undertaken by creative geniuses (for the sake of creating) and entrepreneurs would concern themselves with satisfying the consumer by offering them easier access to artistic creations. Even today, with copyright, we can see the value-added bundles that entrepreneurs build around open source software.

      Furthermore, the vast majority of the world's most culturally influential artistic creations were created in a world where copyright was a foreign concept. Many more well renown artists were employed by despots to create for them against their will. That implies to me that there was an institutionally-imposed deterrence against becoming a well known artist but it did not stop the creative geniuses from creating nonetheless.

      Finally, you may make the argument that copyright is essential for promoting software development. That the incentives do not exist for a business to invest in the creation of new software if they do not maintain the exclusive authority to distribute it. However, in reality this ideal put into practice favours existing large enterprise at the expense of their competition. Only those companies which own huge portfolios of copyright, and possess the resources to defend those copyrights in court, benefit from the absence of competition as imposed by copyright. The creator, be him a musician or a software developer, would have an easier time promoting his/her creations and making something out of them if 3rd parties had the ability to distribute them to create and satisfy demand. Doors are created that did not exist before.

      How often have we heard of new artists becoming famous thanks to the distributive power of the Internet ? Now imagine if there were no barriers preventing anyone from distributing creations online or off. Now ask yourself if copyright truly makes it any easier for you to build a profitable business creating and distributing new software. Piracy exists either way, and advertising is expensive. Plagiarism and fraud are misrepresenting products to the consumers and are vary much illegal without copyright (so a company could not distribute your work and claim that they are it's creators). Copyright actually makes it more difficult for creators and entrepreneurs to create successful business selling their creations. In the absence of copyright gaining publicity for your creations would be exponentially easier, provided that your creations are actually valuable - if they are not then copyright still does not help you. Though it may restrict everyone's options causing them to settle for inferior products due to lack of competition.

    30. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually the government owes the people Madoff defrauded money. They paid taxes on income that didn't exist.

    31. Re:Gun Point? by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Hate to drop a logic bomb on you but the big thing here is that they're sending a man to PRISON for violating copyright, which is a civil issue, not a criminal one.

      A *JAIL* I could understand, a *PRISON* I cannot.

      And having been through both jail and prison, I'm in a far better position to point out the differences and nuances.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    32. Re:Gun Point? by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Absolutely. But then how would law enforcement terrorize the citizenry into behaving, without the threat of jail time? See, that's the mentality we're dealing with... not to mention the huge money machine that LE and prisons have become.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    33. Re:Gun Point? by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      "How often have we heard of new artists becoming famous thanks to the distributive power of the Internet ?"

      New artists? Virtually none. Name a few.

    34. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...

      We also jail people for tax fraud

      ...

      We DO?

      Seems to me if they're Democrats we make them Secretary of the Treasury and put them in charge of the IRS.

      HOPENCHANGE!!!!!

    35. Re:Gun Point? by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      No, no, no, just because our country seems to think that all bad people should go to jail, doesn't mean that its right. Tell me, what is the purpose of jail? It is not a "time out" like our country seems to think it is, it is where you should put violent criminals so they no longer terrorize the street until they are reformed. Yes, as in, full civil rights, etc when they get out. We wonder why we have overcrowded prisons, well this is why.

      Is what they are doing good? No. But put them on house arrest, forbid them for taking public money, make them pay reparations to those they have defrauded. Madoff is a bad person, I'm sure we can all agree on that, but is he a danger if he lives next door? Is your life or property in danger if he comes to your house? No. Therefore, he should not be sent to jail. Similarly tax fraud should be the same way, if they aren't a danger to the passerby then they should not be jailed, plain and simple.

      Nice strawman, but not correct. People are also sent to jail as a deterrent. It's not enough to prevent Madoff from committing another swindle. You have to make other people think the consequences of getting caught are sufficiently bad that they don't want to take that risk. If the consequence to people like Madoff is living in luxury of the rest of your life other people won't be deterred. Hence jail is appropriate for some non-violent offenders. I think the distinction might be more useful if it were between victimless crimes and crimes with victims. There were many victims of Madoff's actions.

      The other part of the risk/reward equation is the likelihood of being caught. That's where the SEC fell down badly. In the future people need to be convinced that there is both the likelihood of being caught and serious penalties when caught.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    36. Re:Gun Point? by iamangry · · Score: 1

      He deprived them of their choice of when to reveal their work to the public, didn't he?

    37. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are a large multi-billion dollar corporation. You spend millions retaining lawyers to lock artists into contracts so you can pay them pennies. You control distribution channels with lawyers and lobbyists.

      One of your indentured artists manages to produce something, despite the previously mentioned penny wages and your constant meddling, but someone in your own organization releases it before your artificial-scarcity distribution process could.

      There, fixed that for you.

    38. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong. It's a misdemeanor, i.e. criminal law. Yes, there are laws dealing with copyright infringement. Look here for starters, then please refrain from saying it's a civil matter.

    39. Re:Gun Point? by garett_spencley · · Score: 1

      Css is a Brazillian band who got famous this way.

      ""CSS caught an unlikely break when their song "Music Is My Hot Hot Sex" was used in a worldwide television commercial by Apple Inc. for the iPod. An 18-year-old British student, Nick Haley, used the song in a homemade 30-second commercial for the iPod Touch that he created and then posted on the video sharing site YouTube on 11 September 2007.[7] Creative executives from Apple's advertising agency, TBWA\Chiat\Day, saw Haley's creation, contacted him, and enlisted him to remake it as a broadcast version.[8] The spot began airing in the U.S. on 28 October 2007, and later in Japan and Europe. Due to the song's exposure in the US, it hit #63[9][10] on the Billboard Hot 100, becoming the highest charting single by a Brazilian band in the history of the chart. Coincidentally, the same song had been used in a promotion for the competing Zune media player a year prior.[11] In March 2008, the music video for the song amassed over 112 million views on YouTube, making it the most-viewed video on the site, but it has since been removed."

    40. Re:Gun Point? by Coopjust · · Score: 1

      Therein lies the problem. Even though it's an extreme burden on society, the idea of keeping people like Madoff out of prison angers a lot of people. Prison is a pretty nasty place. It costs a lot on society per year- thousands- but the idea that we are depriving him brings a lot to his family.

      However, Madoff stole an immense amount of money- he should be forced to sell his house and property to help compensate those he defrauded.

      For the amount of money he defrauded people of, he should have to spend one day per household that he defrauded doing manual labor (8 hour workday, with a short break for a meal- nothing fancy, of course). Then, he should have to look at the people and families he defrauded and apologize to them. Hopefully, he'd actually be sorry.

      Too bad we'll just put him in prison. That's not to say he won't be sorry or deprived there, just that he'll be a further drain on taxpayers.

    41. Re:Gun Point? by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      Amen!

      Free Madoff!!! A completely non-violent crime and the potential for life in jail.

      Election fraud by tampering with voting machines, another completely non-violent crime - don't even bother investigating.

    42. Re:Gun Point? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      Well originally slavery was not considered theft of labor either. Romans had slaves who lived just as good as citizens, including educated scribes, teachers, and craftsmen were were personal slaves. But then thousands of years later the laws were changed to catch-up with the new "human rights philosophy" that said people should be paid for the work they do.

      Nobody has a right to take a program without just compensation of the programmer's labor. The law may not recognize it as theft of labor, but the human rights' philosophy does.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    43. Re:Gun Point? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      I think you make the crime too small. The website owner provided downloadable copies to thousands of people who won't buy the album since they got it free - it's more than just stealing a loaf of bread. If you figure 1% of the population buys music CDs, then you have damage of around 10,000 * 1% * $10 wholesale == $1000.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    44. Re:Gun Point? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>> jail is where you should put violent criminals so they no longer terrorize the street until they are reformed.

      So someone who stole $1000 from my wallet should just be allowed to run-around free? I severely disagree. This person violated my human rights, and the government needs to restrain him. The best way to restrain someone is to lock them behind bars for a few years.

      And I don't buy this "the prisons are overcrowded" nonsense. We build new buildings all the time for schools, offices, stores, et cetera. Build more buildings to restrain criminals.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    45. Re:Gun Point? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>What if the world has changed in such a way that intending to "sell" some easily-copied series of ones and zeros is no longer a viable business plan?

      I can not imagine such a world. A computer without software is pretty worthless, so there will always be a need for programmers and they deserve to get paid for their labor. (Although I suppose we could shackle them to plantations like my ancestors were, and force them to write programs for free.)

      Of course if you know of an alternate way to get software for computers without having to pay the laborers, please share. I'm open to new ideas.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    46. Re:Gun Point? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>Under no natural law has the person been deprived of anything.

      By that reasoning, my ancestors who picked cotton were not wronged. They picked the cotton, the owner of the land sold the cotton, and then they went back to their homes. They were not deprived of anything.

      Oh wait; that's right. They were deprived of their labor. It was stolen.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    47. Re:Gun Point? by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      However, Madoff stole an immense amount of money- he should be forced to sell his house and property to help compensate those he defrauded.

      He should have to pay the money he defrauded, plus a fine from the government. If he has enough cash to do that without selling his house/property, let him. If he has to sell everything that he owns right down to the clothes on his back, let him.

      For the amount of money he defrauded people of, he should have to spend one day per household that he defrauded doing manual labor (8 hour workday, with a short break for a meal- nothing fancy, of course). Then, he should have to look at the people and families he defrauded and apologize to them. Hopefully, he'd actually be sorry.

      Ah, yes! That makes perfect sense! Of course the rich should get harsher punishments! Isn't that blind justice?!? No, he, and every other person convicted of fraud should have to repay their victims and pay a fine. Nothing more, nothing less. Giving rich people harsher punishments makes absolutely no sense. By that logic all the black people we hung for such simple "crimes" as looking at a white person the wrong way are perfectly justified. You argue nothing more than the equivalent of racism. We need equal justice, from the CEO, to the unemployed.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    48. Re:Gun Point? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      Bzzzz. Television made them famous, not the internet. Had the TV commercial not been made, this CSS would still be an obscure band that nobody ever heard of.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    49. Re:Gun Point? by Jurily · · Score: 1

      "the right way to find the answer to something on the net isn't
      to simply ask (nobody will answer), but to confidently state something
      slightly wrong, whereupon heaps of people will pop up to correct you and
      prove themselves right."

    50. Re:Gun Point? by skeeto · · Score: 1

      He did the equivalent of taking somebody's work without payment. You spend a year of your life developing a program, with plans to sell it for income, but instead I simply TAKE the program off bittorrent.

      Did you pay Linus Torvalds and all of the other Linux kernel hackers before using Linux? How about all the other free software you have used? Many of these people make money writing this software, and it is sold for income by companies too. This isn't an issue because they explicitly gave everyone permission to distribute it without royalty.

      The question is, do we need this permission in the first place? The law says we usually do, but these same laws were written by corrupt, paid-for politicians. Personally, I don't think we need permission from anyone to share our own culture.

    51. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Instead of putting them in jail.Put them through basic training and assign them as grunts to the army corps of engineers for the duration of their "sentence". No international or combat duty. Feed um, cloth um, and give um a place to live. Meanwhile they can work their asses off fixing U.S. infrastructure like dikes and other things the corps put in but the cities never bothered to maintain.

    52. Re:Gun Point? by garett_spencley · · Score: 1

      Are you trolling now, or are you really so narrow-minded ?

      Are you actually trying to claim that if the element of people sharing the amateur video were removed that the television commercial would still have been made and they would still enjoy their current success ?

      Not to mention the fact that my point was that copyright restricts people's abilities to distribute and thus, in a loose sense, deprives artists of the potential of gaining publicity that they would have otherwise enjoyed. The Internet is an example of people dancing around the institutional barriers. Supporting the theory that copyright hinders success, rather than promote.

    53. Re:Gun Point? by Internal+Modem · · Score: 1

      Your argument is that people who create a more desirable product equate to someone stealing another person's work. Creation of new products is wonderful. Theft and distribution of another person's work is wonderful too. Only one is morally correct.

    54. Re:Gun Point? by mpe · · Score: 1

      It's not enough to prevent Madoff from committing another swindle. You have to make other people think the consequences of getting caught are sufficiently bad that they don't want to take that risk. If the consequence to people like Madoff is living in luxury of the rest of your life other people won't be deterred. Hence jail is appropriate for some non-violent offenders. I think the distinction might be more useful if it were between victimless crimes and crimes with victims. There were many victims of Madoff's actions.

      Madoff probably wouldn't be "living in luxury" after paying reparations to his victims anyway. Even if he did have money left over afterwards there are plenty of laws which allow for the state to confiscate that. Isn't living out the rest of their life in poverty something which would deter a criminal used to luxury?

    55. Re:Gun Point? by garett_spencley · · Score: 1

      You're seriously distorting logic. The cotton was the resource that the land-owners, under serfdom, owned. While you may say that the serfs were employing their time in ways that they would otherwise have not were they free, you can not say that they had claim to the cotton. Again, if I go to my neighbhours yard and pick apples from his tree I do not own those apples. For I do not own the land. I have also deprived my neighbhour of his property. Yet by your twist of logic I should charge my neighbour for my labour!

      What you are talking about is slavery, which can be interpreted as theft of labour, but that has nothing to do with the cotton itself.

      It is true that we value our labour as an economic good. Labour is only time and we clearly value time otherwise interest would not exist. We would gladly pay the same price today for an apple today or an apple in 20 years. We can exchange labour, but we can not expect anyone to value our labour the same as we do. We can not, under all circumstances, expect payment for our any employment of our time. There was has to be an agreement of exchange between two individuals (a contract).

      What is going on under copyright is that the institution itself causes us to value specific employments of our labour differently. If all employments of labour and time were valued equally then I should expect payment for responding to your trolls.

      What you are saying, on the other hand, is that we should always expect that people will value our labour and want to enter into exchanges for any employment of it. It's a nice fantasy. Unfortunately it has nothing to do with reality.

    56. Re:Gun Point? by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      >>>What if the world has changed in such a way that intending to "sell" some easily-copied series of ones and zeros is no longer a viable business plan?

      I can not imagine such a world. A computer without software is pretty worthless, so there will always be a need for programmers and they deserve to get paid for their labor. (Although I suppose we could shackle them to plantations like my ancestors were, and force them to write programs for free.)

      Of course if you know of an alternate way to get software for computers without having to pay the laborers, please share. I'm open to new ideas.

      You don't charge for the ones and zeros. You charge to keep the system that uses those ones and zeros operating smoothly. Redhat does such a business with a free operating system at it's core. The operating system itself is free. The value-added is the support.

      I'm a musician. I'm in a moderately-successful band. The music we write and record is free. Anyone can download it from my bands' website and hundreds of other places on the 'net and encourage it as a promotional tool. In this age we realize that selling recordings is a dead business model. We ask for donations if people enjoy our music recordings. We make the bulk of the money in performances and merchandise. We're currently setting up a system to record a live performance and offer it for sale there at the venue to audience members.

      These are the kinds of business models that are independent of the need for rules enforcing artificial scarcity. I'd highly recommend taking a long hard look at your business model and tailoring it to obviate the need for similar protections involving the creation and enforcement of artificial scarcity.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    57. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually what he did is the equivalent of opening the window of a concert hall so the people outside can hear.

      The reason recorded media exists at all is because it saves the performers having to perform many, many times in many, many places.....it is a 'takeaway' ('to-go' for our US viewers) performance.

      If you sneak into a performance it's security's job to kick you out and at worse you are guilty of trespass.

    58. Re:Gun Point? by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      Your argument is that people who create a more desirable product equate to someone stealing another person's work. Creation of new products is wonderful. Theft and distribution of another person's work is wonderful too. Only one is morally correct.

      In the case of Gutenberg, the "product" was still books. The printing press simply enabled one man unskilled in calligraphy to print a book without employing teams of scribes, and to reprint it exactly over and over. Did Gutenbergs' invention "steal" the scribes' labor?

      Now, I believe that anyone should be free to do with their work whatever they will. What I do not believe in is creating laws that rob the majority of rights to benefit a few far beyond protections afforded to most skills and professions and use our tax dollars to enforce an artificial scarcity and even deprive people of their freedom at the point of a gun in pursuit of this artificial scarcity.

      I think of some of the problems we as a society are encountering in regard to copyright in the age of the internet and perfect digital copies as being similar in many ways to the problems we will face when copying of physical objects becomes cheap and ubiquitous like "replicator" technology from the Star Trek series. Both are disruptive to old business models and paradigms, but attempting to stop their development and use is an exercise in futility and will only result in loss of freedom.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    59. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You call that a punishment? He'll just live off some friends he enriched with his scam, or go to another country and live off a Swiss account. Hardly a punishment. Why shouldn't he go to PMITA prison? It's not like you're going to overcrowd the prisons with people who stole billions.

    60. Re:Gun Point? by Faylone · · Score: 1

      If the work HASN'T been released how is it copyright infringement because NO ONE has been authorized to reproduce it.

      Because the law says so?

    61. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except in those cases, you're talking about ADVANCEMENTS in the field. In the other case, he TOOK SOMETHING that wasn't his.

      Your post isn't even close to almost being relevant. It was stupid.

      The only risk that's the creator's problem is that people may not like the product, not that some jackass steals it and gives it away for free.

      Henry Ford didn't steal the horse and buggies and give them away for free.

      But you know what, next time you go to sell your house, I'll just come over and take it. I mean, after all, you INTENDED to sell it, but I mean things change and now we just take as we see fit whatever we see fit with no repercussions.

    62. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What if the world has changed in such a way that intending to "sell" some easily-copied series of ones and zeros is no longer a viable business plan?

      It doesn't matter how viable the business plan is. The work was created under the reasonable expectation that certain promises would be honored. One of those promises (codified as a set of laws) was that the copyright holder would be the sole decider of how that work would be distributed. Suddenly denying them that control--breaking the promise--is hardly fair.

      As the GP suggested, say you spend a month working on a project for someone because they promised (through contracts bound by law, say) that they'd pay you $5k at the end of the month for your work. Yet, when the end of the month comes, they decide not to pay you, and they make it clear they're never going to pay you. Are you really going to be okay with that? You're not going take them to court for breach of contract? And maybe to top it off, they offer up some insulting justification, like, "Well, ANYONE could have done that work for us;" you know, kind of implying that your work was easy to copy, so you don't deserve anything for it. You'd be just hunky-dory with that? I doubt it. I bet you'd be talking to a lawyer the same day. Heck, I bet you'd sleep at night just fine if the cops showed up at your employer's door with their guns drawn. That'd serve him right for messing with you, wouldn't it?

      I don't deny that there exists a better way of encouraging new works than perpetual copyright, but that doesn't give us the right to make a liar of the system that existed when those works were made--to break its promises.

    63. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I totally agree that just sending him to jail will never pay for what he's done you need to loose more than your money for such deeds.
      Taking his freedom away is the worse thing you can do to a man like him (or most people). I actually live very near where he used to live and work next to where he now lives :)

      Make him consult for free with the FCC and have them use that money to pay them off, slowely. Besides he simply just can't be trusted around large sums of money so even if he was a good investor and could reclaim a lot of the money we'd be idiots for letting him try again.

    64. Re:Gun Point? by Ashriel · · Score: 1

      The problem in most theft and fraud cases is that the original money or property is no longer available, having been spent or sold.

      A person so convicted should return as much as s/he can, and then forced into useful public labor until the remainder of the debt is paid off through garnished wages.

      Note that the above is a reasonable compromise to what I really want, which is indentured servitude at the rate of $100 of debt per day. This is a fitting punishment: those who want money for free should have to work without pay.

    65. Re:Gun Point? by Ashriel · · Score: 1

      People are also sent to jail as a deterrent.

      Yeah, seems to be working really well.

      The grandparent has the right idea; non-violent offenses don't call for incarceration. The punishment should fit the crime.

    66. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would argue that, it's financially better for me if my product reaches a larger audience, regardless of the circumstances. My business model could be adjusted to profit instead from support, additional content, and community driven advertisement.

      If one-hundred-thousand people were to download my product if it were free, and only ten-thousand if it were not, I would make it free. With 10x the user base, I have more opportunities to make money off of my product and off of future products. I don't see this as a loss.

      Larger corporations do because they neither have any realistic competition and incomes far exceeding the value of their products. They'd like to keep it this way and legal action is the best way to do so. See also: "investing" in the local government.

    67. Re:Gun Point? by cliffski · · Score: 1

      agreed 100%. But here on slashdot, thieves are heroes and anyone creative or successful is the enenmy.
      Pathetic isn't it.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    68. Re:Gun Point? by Ashriel · · Score: 1

      Of course if you know of an alternate way to get software for computers without having to pay the laborers, please share. I'm open to new ideas.

      Uhh, there's this newfangled concept called Open Source Software (OSS), don't know if you've heard of it yet. Most contributors to OSS do so without expecting any sort of financial compensation.

    69. Re:Gun Point? by MooUK · · Score: 1

      Well treated slaves were compensated with shelter and food and care for the work they performed. The purpose of money when exchanged for your work is to exchange for food, shelter, and so forth. There's less difference than many suggest.

      Not saying it's good, though.

    70. Re:Gun Point? by MooUK · · Score: 1

      How much will it cost to put him behind bars for, as you said, a few years? A hell of a lot more than what he stole from you. You, and other taxpayers, are paying for that.

    71. Re:Gun Point? by MooUK · · Score: 1

      As a non-American, what is the distinction?

    72. Re:Gun Point? by Ashriel · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it's pretty much been my opinion that if you don't want your product freely distributed beyond your control, don't put into any form that could be digitized.

    73. Re:Gun Point? by Ashriel · · Score: 1

      Hah! So, so true.

    74. Re:Gun Point? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      You may be right, but I don't see how Redhat could survive long-term.

      I'm using their OS and have not paid a single dime towards them.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    75. Re:Gun Point? by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      For an 18-year old who's main problem is discipline and sense of responsibility the whole curfew/work thing should work pretty good.

      Would you like to be tagged, tracked, grounded, Internet access restricted, *and* have a set of hard physical work to get through every day (otherwise you go to real prison)?

      --
      No sig today...
    76. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alternatively, you've been making an unreasonable assumption: that software can be meaningfully saleable.

      If you spent a year of your life developing a scheme to sell air, would anyone who then breathed it without paying you be stealing your labour without just compensation?

      I think not. You can't make unreasonable plans (selling air, arguably selling software) and then complain when they don't work out.

    77. Re:Gun Point? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>Did Gutenbergs' invention "steal" the scribes' labor?

      No. It eliminated the need for scribes. Completely. It stole nothing from the scribes.

      However the advent of computer sharing has not eliminated the need for writers, therefore your analogy is non-relevant. You still need a business model that can pay for these writers' labors, and so far none of ye have produced that model. You just take and take without consideration of how your favorite writers will put food on the table.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    78. Re:Gun Point? by Stormwatch · · Score: 1

      A *JAIL* I could understand, a *PRISON* I cannot.

      As a non-native English speaker, I must ask you to explain the difference.

    79. Re:Gun Point? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>re you really so narrow-minded?

      No I'm saying exactly what I said: "Had the TV commercial not been made" we wouldn't even be discussing the CSS band. They'd be unknown. In order to prove that internet creates stars, you need to find someone who became well-known *exclusively through the net* - similar to how Howard Stern & Rush Limbaugh was turned into "stars" exclusively through the power of radio.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    80. Re:Gun Point? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      What I am saying is that when Stephen King spends 1-2 years writing a book, he deserves to get PAID! Jeez.

      I don't know why some of ye find this concept so difficult. When you download Mr. King's book and read it without paying him, you are no better than the man who asked his Serfs to pick cotton without payment. In both cases, it's theft of another human being's labor.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    81. Re:Gun Point? by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      How much will it cost to put him behind bars for, as you said, a few years?

      How much will it cost everyone if someone who has shown that he considers your personal belongings and work to be his to do with as he pleases is now just running around, able to regard everyone else's property the same way? How do you propose physically stopping someone from taking whatever he wants when you're unwilling to ... physically stop him?

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    82. Re:Gun Point? by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      Madoff probably wouldn't be "living in luxury" after paying reparations to his victims anyway. Even if he did have money left over afterwards there are plenty of laws which allow for the state to confiscate that.

      Madoff may have no money at the end of this, but how much will his wife and family have? Will they kick him to the curb? I doubt it.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    83. Re:Gun Point? by zvar · · Score: 1

      Hell, as an American, what is the distinction?

    84. Re:Gun Point? by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      People are also sent to jail as a deterrent.

      Yeah, seems to be working really well.

      If you had read my posting carefully, you would have noted that I also stated that the risk of being prosecuted has to be significant for there to be a deterrent effect. In recent times the SEC has clearly been ineffective and that risk has been close to zero.

      As for the punishment fitting the crime, arguably Madoff has caused tremendous damage to people's lives. There are elderly people who will lose their houses and all their savings. Who knows what will happen to them? What about the people who would have benefited from the charities that now don't have the money to support their work. What consequences will that have?

      Just because Madoff didn't use a gun or a knife to rob people doesn't mean that the consequences won't be dire for some of his victims.

      Ask yourself this, if someone robbed you at knifepoint of the contents of your wallet, but did not actually harm you, is that worse or better than losing your house and all your savings?

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    85. Re:Gun Point? by MooUK · · Score: 1

      See above, where we have a native english speaking non-american and a native english speaking american all asking the same thing.

    86. Re:Gun Point? by MooUK · · Score: 1

      Also: Offices and stores are built against future profits from their existence. Schools are a somewhat special case, as are prisons: they do not pay for themselves.

    87. Re:Gun Point? by conureman · · Score: 1

      Yes, and in a case as egregious as this, I believe the law provides some kind of multiplier. 10x comes to mind, I forget. I just think it's arbitrary that vox populi (the copyright lobbyists) should have criminalised this. If thugs hijack a truck of CDs it is no more criminal than the theft of the data, property-wise, but the data theft belongs under the civil code.

      --
      The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
    88. Re:Gun Point? by BradleyUffner · · Score: 1

      He could spend his days fixing up the houses of all the people he bilked - painting, mowing their lawns, etc.

      How do you make someone serve their sentence without threat of imprisonment if they don't cooperate? In your example, what if he refuses to help fix the houses, or dares to leaves his home after the curfew? Sure, you could place an armed guard on his house, but then you have effectively turned his home into a prison.

    89. Re:Gun Point? by Ashriel · · Score: 1

      Ask yourself this, if someone robbed you at knifepoint of the contents of your wallet, but did not actually harm you, is that worse or better than losing your house and all your savings?

      As a very obstinate person with little regard for his own safety, I can guarantee you that if someone tried to rob me using a knife, they'd actually have to use it in order to get anything from me. So yes, I'd definitely consider that worse than losing my savings.

      But another point I'd like to bring up is: why would a person be at risk of losing their house or savings in the first place? Shouldn't those assets be held separately from high-risk endeavors like investment banking? If these folks who got scammed lost more than a small percentage of their income, then they were morons. I'm not saying they deserved to get bilked, but still, they got screwed because they let greed trump common sense.

      The man preyed on people's greed. That's not even close to forcibly separating someone from their property.

    90. Re:Gun Point? by David+Rolfe · · Score: 1

      >>>What if the world has changed in such a way that intending to "sell" some easily-copied series of ones and zeros is no longer a viable business plan?

      I can not imagine such a world. A computer without software is pretty worthless, so there will always be a need for programmers and they deserve to get paid for their labor. [...]

      Of course if you know of an alternate way to get software for computers without having to pay the laborers, please share. I'm open to new ideas.

      First, so there isn't any straw-man thrashing, of course a worker deserves to get paid for his labor. A programmer is like any other laborer. You agree to a contract, that contract is enforced by the state, you do the work you agree to do and you get paid as agreed to. If you are working without an agreement to get paid, that's a poor decision if payment is what you're seeking!

      That said, we're on the cusp of a new era. We are very close to a world of ubiquitous robotic labor and a world without scarcity (robotic resource gathering, digital replication, robotic manufacturing/artifact printing). Advances in technology will reach both of these at some point (though probably not at the same time). As fantastic as it sounds, 'computer programming' is another form of labor that will eventually be automated with technology. Software that writes software only has to be written once, if you will. The process has already begun. The research is already happening. We already have replaced millions of jobs with robots and will surely replace many more. Artificial intelligence in general and genetic programming research specifically has marched on for years. Robots will manufacture other robots; Computers will program themselves or each other. I don't think this prediction is controversial.

      Sure we'll get to keep wage slaving for a couple more decades until India and China completely corner the market on programming, but you really need to start coming to terms with the reality of technological advancement.

      The current IP-regime simply cannot cope rationally with the changes that are just beginning. I mean, imagine it, how is copyright going to handle an age where kids have media devices in their heads and are vlogging straight from their eyes? Will there be some giant royalties agent monitoring all IP witnessed and licensing it or censoring it out? How far away is this future? (Surely we'll be there before the end of scarcity.) Will any relevant cultural artifacts have reached the public domain? Creation of protected works has skyrocketed and is accelerating, but expiration into the public domain has all but ceased -- if IP laws aren't restructured will we need tamper-proof Rights Management implants to protect the vast expanse of expression monopolies? (That's the reality of the current "copyright by default" 1976 Act. Every cocktail napkin scribble, every email, voicemail, lecture note, every action caught on every recorded cctv and security cam, etc. It's all 'rights managed' for the next 100 years or 1000, because no one really knows when Congress will stop extending terms. Those are your rights that are getting managed by the way -- your 1st Amendment right to expression ends where expression monopolies begin.)

      I guess my point is, if technological advancement continues to accelerate 'the future' is going to be here a lot sooner than we realize. We need to start thinking about how our laws, businesses --really, relationships of all kinds-- have to change to accommodate the new reality. Essentially infinite copyright protection on essentially every expression since 1976 is not "promot[ing] the Progress of Science and useful Arts."

      Sibling posts make good points too.

      --
      Read Heinlein's 1953 Revolt in 2100, now more than ever.
    91. Re:Gun Point? by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Here is the difference:

      Jail is for those with misdemeanors/serving 11/29 terms, and is usually reserved for non-violent offenders. If you're a violent offender, you get solitary. Jail people can get "trusty" status where they can leave the jail and perform work or even supervise work. You even get asked if you want that status and you're given a chance to prove you're worthy of it. Hell, if you're LUCKY you might get transferred to a private corporate jail (CCA) where you can buy smokes, ramen, watch satellite TV, play card and board games all day long, or go out to the pool, library, or one of numerous basketball courts!

      Prison is for felons/anyone with a sentence longer than a year. You don't get a trusty status, you get your ass assigned to a work crew, get chained and shackled, and you work. No freedom to move. You're also forced into other labors if you're able, such as prison food farming. You don't get a choice like you do in jail. You're also generally NOT allowed to smoke.

      There are some special outside programs as well. For first-time offenders (such as myself) we had our OWN facility just at the edge of the prison grounds. A regimented inmate discipline program (prison boot camp) and to make it worse for us anyone in prison got shanked to death we were the ones to bury them as a little extra incentive to behave.

      Things have likely changed and they don't have the RIDtards burying dead felons any longer in Mississippi Prisons, but still, there's a WIDE difference in Jail and Prison.

      Don't believe me? Earn your bars and stripes, then come back to me and tell me it's the same thing.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    92. Re:Gun Point? by David+Rolfe · · Score: 1

      You might be interested in a similar reply I made to Commodore64_love at http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1160895&cid=27196657.

      The end of scarcity is exactly what we need to be dealing with now, wrt virtual "property". 'Replication' of physical artifacts is coming whether it's Star Trek-style or The Diamond Age-style and/or some other variations in between, only time will tell. It's pretty far out there, but we're going to see more mundane forms of artifact printing very soon and this whole can of worms that we're fretting about with songs is about to happen with chairs or wallpaper and who-knows what else. For a comparison, look at the "underground" trading of sewing machine software for embroidery and cross-stitch piracy; that's already happening. I mean we have "IP infringement" entering the zeitgeist from all angles, from grannies and woodworkers to song-traders and warezers. The current system has to change, because you can't have a functioning society where everyone is a criminal under the law. That leads directly to the sort of draconian police-states that the so-called American Spirit directly opposes. And further, as I mention in the other comment, you can't enforce rights management when replication of all expression is ubiquitous without insanely invasive methods.

      --
      Read Heinlein's 1953 Revolt in 2100, now more than ever.
    93. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I support jail time for crooked CEOs. Hard jail time. "Poundmeintheass federal prison" jail time.

      We get to be their bitch out here, so I say we let them be Billy-Bob's bitch for a while in there. Sounds fair.

    94. Re:Gun Point? by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      But another point I'd like to bring up is: why would a person be at risk of losing their house or savings in the first place? Shouldn't those assets be held separately from high-risk endeavors like investment banking? If these folks who got scammed lost more than a small percentage of their income, then they were morons. I'm not saying they deserved to get bilked, but still, they got screwed because they let greed trump common sense.

      You bring up a very interesting point. There was a story of one woman who was likely to lose her house because she could no longer pay the mortgage. Presumably she had mortgaged the house in order to "invest" with Madoff. That's called arbitrage and is a sophisticated and risky technique.

      Anyway, back to the relative guilt according to the actions of the victims. If I use an ATM late at night and get robbed, do I deserve to lose my money (I should have known that it was a stupid place and time to use an ATM). Was it a lesser offense to attack and rape the girl in the short skirt in the bad part of town than if the attack had taken place in a better part of town? Once you start assessing the nature of the crime according to how "risky" the behavior of the victims was, you start going down a difficult road.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    95. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Gutenberg Press didn't steal the actual labor of those scribes, it just allowed somebody else to produce books at a lower cost.

      That's legitimate action, and does nothing to directly steal from those scribes.

      Sorry, but your analogy fails.

    96. Re:Gun Point? by v1 · · Score: 1

      "Joe deprived me of my right to (do some random act)" is not illegal unless there's a law. You're depriving me of my right to browse pr0n right now because I'm responding to your post. Surrender immediately!

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    97. Re:Gun Point? by David+Rolfe · · Score: 1

      >>>Did Gutenbergs' invention "steal" the scribes' labor?

      No. It eliminated the need for scribes. Completely. It stole nothing from the scribes.

      Actually, I'm surprised you don't argue it stole their vocation. Otherwise it seems you understand the argument, you just willfully ignore it. The labor pool for hand-copied books was destroyed by the printing press. Scriveners had to do what programmers will have to do, train for a new vocation or find a new way to contract our their services in exchange for compensation. I'm sure there is still some patron desperately seeking a calligraphed book.

      Other forms of automation have similarly destroyed the labor pool for the cobbler and the blacksmith. However, one can still buy or commission hand-made boots and swords. Perhaps we'll see artisan software in the same way we see artisan chairs.

      (Oh wait, maybe the buzzword for that is saas. Problem solved?!)

      --
      Read Heinlein's 1953 Revolt in 2100, now more than ever.
    98. Re:Gun Point? by Ashriel · · Score: 1

      Anyway, back to the relative guilt according to the actions of the victims. If I use an ATM late at night and get robbed, do I deserve to lose my money (I should have known that it was a stupid place and time to use an ATM). Was it a lesser offense to attack and rape the girl in the short skirt in the bad part of town than if the attack had taken place in a better part of town? Once you start assessing the nature of the crime according to how "risky" the behavior of the victims was, you start going down a difficult road.

      Well, for starters, I'm not comparing relative guilt in my assertion that nonviolent crimes do not justify incarceration. Just because Madoff tricked his victims into consent doesn't make him less guilty, nor his victims more deserving. My original point of the paragraph you quoted was that the degree of the victim's suffering was, in this case, self-inflicted. In most cases I believe the degree of harm done shouldn't be a determining factor in the type of punishment, but rather that the type of punishment should be determined entirely by nature of the crime committed. The degree of harm done should only be used when considering the degree of sentencing within its specific classification.

      Also, you are again comparing crimes that involved force. Obviously (to me, at least), crimes involving force on the part of the perpetrator shouldn't even consider "implied consent" on the part of the victim as a mitigating argument.

      There is theft by force (your theoretical knife-wielding robber), theft by stealth (think cat burglar or shoplifter), theft by persuasion (Madoff), and theft of potential (this is where copyright infringement comes in). Each of these situations needs to be considered separately, and I would argue only the first deserves imprisonment, although proven habitual offenses of the second type may warrant lock-up.

    99. Re:Gun Point? by indytx · · Score: 1

      ... Honestly, for all non-violent offenses there should be no jail time whatsoever. It seems like we are using jail time as more or less a "time out" rather then to keep all the violent criminals off the street (the reason jails should be used), and theres a reason why our prisons are overcrowded, we seem to send people to prison for trivial offenses (like this one), or for offenses that are totally nonviolent in nature (tax evasion, etc). ...

      I suppose that I'm about to get some seriously negative karma.

      True, but we put people in jail for months for having a single joint, driving without a valid license, and stealing food. But you know what, we also put a lot of people in jail who had a first or second or third chance and still said "F*** it." Sure there are a lot of drug addicts in prison, but a lot of them are there to keep them from breaking into your house to steal your stuff to sell so they can buy more drugs. I don't care why someone's breaking into my house, that f***er needs to be in prison.

      I don't care how shitty the album is, this is theft, plain and simple, and the product hadn't even reached the market yet. If the album is shitty, don't buy it, but this is a crime, and I'm surprised the prosecutors are only asking for 6 months.

      What would be the damages if someone stole a movie that cost $100M to produce and uploaded it as a torrent? Does anyone really believe that all of the people who downloaded the movie would either (a) not go to the movie anyway or (b) go see it again once it's on the big screen for the big screen experience? Certainly not. Personally, I watch a movie once and that's enough for me. Whether it's at the cinema or on Netflix, once is enough. This try before you buy attitude to justify stealing someone's work is ridiculous. Want to sample a song? Listen to the 30 second clip on Amazon or iTunes after it's been released.

      This guy is a jerk, pure and simple. More importantly, he's a thief. How anyone here can defend what he did or to say that it's not that important is beyond me. In most states, trying to take something out of the store is theft. You don't even have to make it out. It's enough that you've exercised control over something with the intent to deprive the owner of his property. If the feds don't lock him up, maybe the L.A. D.A. will grow a pair and prosecute him to lock him up. Different laws, different sovereigns.

      --
      Make love, not reality television.
    100. Re:Gun Point? by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Sounds like he just signed up to serve in the Army!

      Which used to be a common punishment for chronic miscreants -- join the army or go to jail. Guess which one is more likely to teach at least SOME self-discipline and life skills??

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    101. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *nod*

      if only we could elect a new head of state that would swiftly act to restore credibility to our nation.

      Best to 43, I sincerely hope he pays the price in hell for his misgivings.

    102. Re:Gun Point? by Dracophile · · Score: 1

      If you disagree, consider this: You spend a year of your life developing a program, with plans to sell it for income, but instead I simply TAKE the program off bittorrent. I have stolen your labor without just compensation.

      OK, pay me back. Oh, you can't: you're in the slot.

      --
      Athy, athier, athiest.
    103. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with proposals like that is that it doesn't encourage people to do anything anymore, though.

      Put another way... if you told one of those guys he'd have to pay, I don't know, a million (or any sum that reasonably COULD be paid), he'd work hard to make sure he'd pay it as quickly as possible so that afterwards, he could make money for himself again.

      But if you tell someone he has to pay 50 billion bucks, why should they EVER lift a finger again in their entire life? It's over for them, and they know it; and in the end, you'll probably get less from them than the million you would've gotten otherwise.

      There's also ethical concerns, of course: at which point is it justified to basically fuck up someone's life for good, with no chance left at all for them, period? It's similar to the death penalty or life without parole in prison - not that you can't argue in favor of these things (although I wouldn't), but it's an issue that needs to be considered as well.

    104. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We've been doing that for a long time. Like imprisoning those who steal someone's property. We also jail people for tax fraud, or investment fraud (like that Madoff guy). So yes jailing people for non-violent offenses is acceptable.

      Non sequitur. All that follows from your reasoning is that jailing people for non-violent offenses is a common thing that isn't a new development or anything.

      Now that we got that out of the way, the question is: did this person commit a crime? IMHO he did. He did the equivalent of taking somebody's work without payment. If you disagree, consider this: You spend a year of your life developing a program, with plans to sell it for income, but instead I simply TAKE the program off bittorrent. I have stolen your labor without just compensation.

      That's pretty much the very definition of copyright infringement, which is NOT a criminal matter.

      Sorry. You fail.

    105. Re:Gun Point? by owlstead · · Score: 1

      Doesn't work. He will still have friends that benefited from his actions that would happily let him live in their expensive villa. Besides that, how much of the xxx billion would he pay back by doing any kind of job?

    106. Re:Gun Point? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      First off, the ideal of imprisoning people is not to "save money". The idea is to protect property rights and make it clear that theft will not be tolerated.

      Second, that's one of the reasons we have to reduce prison costs. The Romans used to toss people into underground caves, seal the door, and leave them there. Cheap and economical. I think we should do the same; make prison a place you Do Not want to visit while reducing costs.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    107. Re:Gun Point? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      Yeah but they ARE subsidized - by their fulltime jobs developing copyrighted, nonfree software. You can't claim Linux/OSS is a true self-sustaining model.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    108. Re:Gun Point? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>The labor pool for hand-copied books was destroyed by the printing press.

      I don't care. Scribes were replaced by machines. Tough shit for them; if they're no longer laboring, then they don't deserve to be paid anything. MY concern is with people who ARE doing labor (Stephen King for example), but not getting paid for it because persons like you REFUSE to pay King his wages. Instead you'd rather just TAKE the book.

      I consider that an immoral act.

      You apparently do not, because you enjoy turning folks like Mr. King into your personal slaves (yes that is the term for unpaid labor). "Get in there Stephen and write me another horror novel!!! Now!!!", you cry out as you demand more output from him without just compensation for his work.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    109. Re:Gun Point? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      I have no interest in the future, because we don't know what it will be, and it's often wrong. If previous predictions had come true, I'd be flying to work, sending my kids to college on Mars, and eating food-flavored cubes that "computer" gave me. Your belief about Trek-like replicators are similarly erroneous. We were supposed to have them in the year 2000 - strange, they aren't here yet, are they?

      The real world is not Star Shit.

      I am interested in the *present* and *known quantities*. In the present we have a problem with authors creating books, and not getting paid, because certain persons want to download books for free & turn authors into unpaid workers. This is a REAL problem, and something we need to deal with.

      And no, "Let the authors starve" is not a solution. That's just a cowardly response.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    110. Re:Gun Point? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      Quoted For Truth:

      The Gutenberg Press didn't steal the actual labor of those scribes; it just allowed somebody else to produce books at a lower cost. That's legitimate action, and does nothing to directly steal [unpaid work] from those scribes.

      Sorry, but your analogy fails.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    111. Re:Gun Point? by Ashriel · · Score: 1

      You can't claim Linux/OSS is a true self-sustaining model.

      Sure I can. Right now FOSS is in the minority due to lack of understanding and lack of user savvy. But as more businesses began to realize that FOSS is cheaper to implement (at least from the get-go), more secure and more adaptable to their needs, as the government adopts FOSS as system of greater security, and as schools adopt FOSS as a cheaper and more adaptable learning system, FOSS will slowly begin to dominate the market.

      Simply put, capitalist enterprise cannot compete with a product that is open and free over the long term. It cannot be co-opted; it cannot be undercut; it cannot be made profitable; and it cannot be discredited.

      As for your argument that FOSS is subsidized by programmers who also generate retail software, this is an overgeneralization. While there's some truth to that claim now, as FOSS continues to permeate the computer industry, eventually those jobs will be replaced with jobs administering and adapting open source programs to suit the needs of a given industry. In other words, programmers will go from being retail software producers to open source maintainers. Yes, there will probably be fewer jobs available in this field.

      I'd also like to point out that not all contributors are professional programmers; I'm a programmer, but I don't do it for a living - it's purely a hobby for me. Further, as successive generations become more and more tech savvy (I work with a guy who remembers programming on punch cards - computer literacy is still in its infancy), more contributors will come from the ranks of non-professional programmers.

      This will not happen overnight; it will take generations. But eventually, retail software will go the way of the dinosaur. Eventually, programming will cease to become a profession and instead become something that everyone does, much like reading and writing today (this will probably not happen in our lifetimes).

    112. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You wouldn't feel that way if you had saved money for twenty years in order to buy a home and a thief stole all that money away perfectly nonviolently.

      You'd expect him to do hard time. (Not saying this uploader's offense is remotely close to that. Just pointing out that great harm does not have to be equivalent to violence).

      (wow, the CAPTCHA for this comment was "pension". So appropriate!)

    113. Re:Gun Point? by Darby · · Score: 1

      I don't care why someone's breaking into my house, that f***er needs to be in prison.

      That is exactly the ignorant cowardice and stupidity that is the heart of the problem.

      The person is breaking into your house *because of the fucking drug laws you god damned idiot*.

      Using the bad result of the law as a justification for the fucking law is idiotic.

      How can you even breath if you're so fucking dumb that your brain let *that* thought go through?

      You just stated flat out that you want to encourage more people to break into your house and that you want *me* to pay for it both through increased tax spending on an already proven failed idea, but also with the increased violence of my community due to your fucking idiotic police state bullshit, and your utter failure to pay any attention to its well known consequences.

      Sorry, dude, it's not like you're alone or anything, but that specific bit of idiocy is far and away the greatest threat facing America, not just in drug laws, but in all of our laws.

      Please for the love of anything decent, please try and think before you ever open your mouth again on a subject when you can't even make a one sentence statement without blatantly contradicting yourself.

    114. Re:Gun Point? by st0rmshad0w · · Score: 1

      You are forgetting that anyone who was cleaver enough to scam $50 billion certainly has enough squirreled away and enough people still on his payroll somehow that unless he was locked up in prison he would be able to flee the country at the first opportunity never to be seen again.

    115. Re:Gun Point? by Darby · · Score: 1

      So yes jailing people for non-violent offenses is acceptable.

      You do know that your entire argument to "prove" that is: "We've been doing it so it's ok to do it". right?
      You know that's neither sound, nor valid, right?

      Slavery and genocide are perfectly acceptable by your argument, which is a handy way to tell that it's badly broken.

      Hope this helps.

    116. Re:Gun Point? by Darby · · Score: 1

      What I am saying is that when Stephen King spends 1-2 years writing a book, he deserves to get PAID! Jeez.

      No, he doesn't.

      I don't know why some of ye find this concept so difficult.

      Because it's blatantly and obviously false? In fact it is so blatant and obvious that you embarrass yourself when you keep spouting it?

      He has a right to try and get paid. He has no right to be paid, or you are saying that I have an obligation to pay him because he sat around for a couple years writing something.

      Of course then you go on from there to say that were I to download it without paying him to read it, then I'd be guilty of theft of labor.

      That is, possibly, even dumber that your other statement.

      Now, I'll try and take this slow, but I'm sure you will willfully misunderstand it anyhow:

      If Mr. King has produced a book, then he has already freely chosen to put his labor into that book.

      So when you talk about me downloading that book, when would that be happening? Oh right, that would be *after* the book is written. Therefore before I could even start downloading all of the labor has freely been contributed to the effort in the past making it impossible for me to be stealing it in the present.

      So, you're failing at the level of even understanding what constitutes "before" and "after" in time.

      That's why people find your concept too difficult to swallow. It's becasue your idea is completely batshit insane.

      Good luck with that!

    117. Re:Gun Point? by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Yes, but that's exactly the sort of person who is NOT affected by any ridiculous laws in the first place, so why do they care?? they live in a world where they are rulers and we are subjects.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    118. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok, I'll bite. What's the difference between a jail and a prison?

    119. Re:Gun Point? by mpe · · Score: 1

      Madoff may have no money at the end of this, but how much will his wife and family have? Will they kick him to the curb? I doubt it.

      If they have their own money then they will be fine. Otherwise they were living of the procedes of crime in the first place.

    120. Re:Gun Point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      put that 50 billion he stole towards our national debt

    121. Re:Gun Point? by Theoboley · · Score: 1

      well that's kinda hard nowadays because it seems that every kind of media has a digital form... Hell, you can even take vinyl records and make digital copies of those if you the right tools.

      --
      Stupidity only gets you so far, then you've gotta try
    122. Re:Gun Point? by Khyber · · Score: 1

      See above, where I explain the difference - here

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    123. Re:Gun Point? by FunkyELF · · Score: 1

      ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! This has got to be one of the most excessive police actions ever. Sending a man to jail for a non-violent offense. I hate this country's legal system.

      You're an idiot. You don't think the Enron guys should have gone to jail? What about Madoff or these guys from AIG, CityGroup etc?

    124. Re:Gun Point? by Ashriel · · Score: 1

      That was kinda my point :)

      Granted, there's still the 3D medium. It's hard to digitally duplicate statues, for example. At least until 3D Printing becomes more common.

    125. Re:Gun Point? by Theoboley · · Score: 1

      how do you dupe a song in 3D? I'm so confused.

      --
      Stupidity only gets you so far, then you've gotta try
  7. Skewed Priorities by nurb432 · · Score: 1, Troll

    I fully expect to be modded down for it, but this is just nuts.

    Our economy is on the verge of collapsing, we have people around the world trying to kill us and an administration that is walking us down the path of socialism and they waste tax dollars on a stupid record..

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:Skewed Priorities by Gordonjcp · · Score: 5, Insightful

      an administration that is walking us down the path of socialism

      No, you have an administration that is walking you down the path of corporatism. The difference is that in socialism, the government takes your tax money and spends it on things that everyone needs, like schools, medical facilities and infrastructure, but in corporatism, the government takes your tax money and gives it to people who already have more money than you can possibly imagine.

      The clever bit comes when they tell you that giving money to *everyone* is communism and is bad, but giving money only to people who are already rich is good. That way they can train you to bark like a good little Pavlovian doggie at the eeevil socialists that try to steal money from your corporate masters. Work hard and bark, little doggie, and maybe they'll let you have some scraps.

    2. Re:Skewed Priorities by commodore64_love · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Question: If the plan to bailout/assist people with upside-down mortgages goes through, it will cost about $1000 per taxpaying home. Why should I spend $1000 to pay somebody else's mortgage? And would this be considered corporatism, socialism, or communism?

      IMHO whatever it's called, it's a human rights violation.

      Taking my money to pay somebody else's housing bill is theft of labor. It's no different than if my neighbor bought a Lexus, and then demanded everyone in the area throw-in money to pay the bill. Nobody has a right to demand I help buy them a car. Or pay their mortgage.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    3. Re:Skewed Priorities by Ironchew · · Score: 1

      Your retort was +1 Truth, but if you looked a little further into the comment:

      we have people around the world trying to kill us

      You were talking to a War-on-Terror nut who thinks the assassination of Abraham Lincoln was patriotic. Trolls delight in being fed.

    4. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your not paying $1000 for someone else's mortgage. You're paying $1000 so the criminals who put people up to their eyeballs in debt so they could enrich themselves won't have to five up their bonuses and Manhattan penthouses. They could care less about peoples mortgages as they have amply demonstrated these past few years.

      The problem is finding a way to rescue the working class without putting money in the pockets of the parasites.

    5. Re:Skewed Priorities by Ironchew · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Taking my money to pay somebody else's housing bill is theft of labor.

      I think a financial sector that systematically deregulated any oversight and pisses away over one third of our GDP on derivatives, where nobody knows who owes what to who, is theft of labor. Up another notch if they keep on demanding their executive bonus money from taxpayers, "or else the economy will collapse".

    6. Re:Skewed Priorities by dforreal · · Score: 5, Insightful

      and I fully expect to be modded down for this reply... The Obama administration is HARDLY pursuing a socialist agenda. Political Science 101 would teach you that this is not socialism in any way shape or form... Even if it was, whats the big deal? Social Democratic programs can be implemented in ways that create jobs and reduce the cost of doing business. For example; a universal, single-payer health *insurance* system would reduce redundancy, increase the number of potential patients that doctors could see, improve productivity by reducing lost labor hours due to treatable illnesses and eliminate one of the single largest expenses per-employee that businesses currently have. Despite what the generally libertarian-leaning Slashdot crowd thinks, I would prefer a government funded not-for-profit model over the current for-profit system which costs us all more in the end.

    7. Re:Skewed Priorities by RepelHistory · · Score: 1

      Nobody has a right to demand I help buy them a car. Or pay their mortgage.

      So we have absolutely no problem giving 700 BILLION dollars to the banks whose greed caused this mess in the first place, but if we give a cent to those who were screwed over by deceptive lending practices and corporate greed, it's suddenly a human rights violation? Yes, I recognize the bank bailout was necessary. But it sure as hell wasn't fair. Yes, some homeowners did act irresponsibly, but not nearly as irresponsibly as the financial institutions whose JOB is to know better. If you're willing to let home values continue to plummet due to unnecessary foreclosures just because you're still caught up over what's fair, then you're intentionally blinding yourself to a little thing I like to call REALITY.

    8. Re:Skewed Priorities by WhatAmIDoingHere · · Score: 1

      Nobody "put" anyone else into debt. People were greedy on both sides of this. Both the banks and the poor people who are upside down on their mortgages. It's called living within your means. Something Americans need to get back to.

      --
      Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
    9. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jesus you're stupid.

      A lot of this happened because of rules Clinton and Barney Frank put into effect about allowing less-than-ideal people to get a home.

    10. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I looked at GP and recursion hurt mah brain. May be that sig is ironic e.g. "Washington was a tratior"

    11. Re:Skewed Priorities by xero314 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Obviously you know nothing at all about the mortgage assistance programs that are being approved. I can't say I whole heartedly agree with them, as I am getting screwed on both ends, but they are not hand outs to "pay somebody else's mortgages." What they are is financial payouts to corporations in exchange for those corporations to offer lower interest loans to people severely hurt by an unregulated financial industry. Not a single person is getting out of paying for their homes, and keeping them that is, it's only changing loan conditions.

      No one is demanding anything more than has been demanded for the life of this country, as well as others, and that is that the people pay for the benefits of the government. In this case we also pay for the faults of that government, one which we chose I might add. This is the government of the US paying for it's past mistakes of unregulated distribution of resources, thank you Reagan and Greenspan (who at least admitted his mistake and apologized, unlike the rest of the free market economists of the world).

      Oh and since you consider debt relief to be a human rights violation I can't wait to hear what you call forced homelessness and starvation.

    12. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mind you, I'm not saying this is what WILL happen, but theoretically....

      If you paying 1000 dollars to bail out mortgages would prevent economic collapse, providing you with a return of 1000 dollars (inflation adjusted) or greater in the future (due to keeping a job you would have otherwise lost, getting a raise, ect), then it's a fine idea and only sensible.

    13. Re:Skewed Priorities by neumayr · · Score: 1

      They're planing to try to fix mortgages?

      Interesting. That's actually not very different from injecting companies with cash to prevent bankruptcies, and might have a chance to at least slow down the drop in housing prices.

      From all those weird things governments try to keep the recession in check, that one actually makes sense.

      If nothing else, it's at least equal rights for legal and natural entities.

      --
      Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
    14. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You were talking to a War-on-Terror nut who thinks the assassination of Abraham Lincoln was patriotic. Trolls delight in being fed.

      The parent stated "we have people around the world trying to kill us." I haven't read through parent's past posts, nor do I intend to, however, this statement alone does not qualify your claim. Taken with the bit on Socialism, I'd have to agree with you that likelihood increases.

      Regardless, the fact is that there are people around the world trying to kill, well, just about everyone. Quite a few of them reside in governments, unfortunately there seems to be some propensity for them to land in *service in bureaucratic/militaristic countries. Some of them are more effective than others.

      Sadly enough, there are many otherwise intelligent people who have been trained to jump at verbal spectres. I consider myself one of them.

      "Corporatism" has another, much better known, name: Fascism. Problem is that people instantly think "Nazi" instead of "Prescott Bush."

    15. Re:Skewed Priorities by PReDiToR · · Score: 1

      Why would you be modded down when nobody bothered to read it?

      Try throwing in a few <br>s and you may be pleasantly surprised at your mods.

      --

      Do not meddle in the affairs of geeks for they are subtle and quick to anger
    16. Re:Skewed Priorities by Ontheotherhand · · Score: 1

      wow, you are a brave man to even appear to explain socialism in a vaguely positive way on slashdot.
      But it seemed like a good summary of the current situation to me. The only real problem I have with socialism
      is the tendency of state run stuff to be really crap. since it is effectively a monopoly. That said, in uk the
      government sold of all the state run stuff to the private sector, now we effectively have a privately run monopoly, which
      of course, if really crap. but at least the money is now going to the shareholders, and not the smelly, undeserving
      plebs who actually pay for the service, eh?

    17. Re:Skewed Priorities by poopdeville · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Some of those "predatory loans" were impossible to pay off. Literally. Even if you kept up the schedule and didn't default. You would be in debt for the rest of your life.

      Don't blame "poor people" for this mess. It is the fault of the upper-middle class. They were taking out ridiculous loans, betting on their bubble.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    18. Re:Skewed Priorities by suzerain · · Score: 1

      Well, putting aside whether this plan would actually work or not...assuming it did, I would think you'd want to spend $1000 because if four or five houses around you get repossessed you might find you lose $50,000 off the value of your home.

      Secondly, you won't have to pay $1,000 anyway; they're borrowing the money from other nations that actually have some cash. That's why Hillary's been traveling around the world lately; she's begging everyone for money.

      You'll only pay when/if your country gets repossessed. :)

      --
      gameDB
    19. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What makes that different when the police/fire department spend your tax dollars in a rescue? How about all the people who take public transportation but don't own cars/vehicles of their own -- why should they pay for the roads that (public transportation) buses never go on? Or the converse, why should the car/vehicle owners pay for public transportation with their tax dollars if they never plan to use PT?

      The list goes on and on. That's part of the "deal" you've made by living in a city/community and paying taxes. Don't like it? Go hermit-style and live off the grid :)

    20. Re:Skewed Priorities by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      Question: If the plan to bailout/assist people with upside-down mortgages goes through, it will cost about $1000 per taxpaying home. Why should I spend $1000 to pay somebody else's mortgage?

      You shouldn't. The reason you are paying it is because the people who handed out the mortgages like they were beauty therapy degrees don't want to use their own money to pay it. This is corporatism at work - the government makes the laws to suit business, not you.

    21. Re:Skewed Priorities by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Jesus you're even dumber.

      Most policies put into effect take about two presidential terms to even really come into full effect.

      Bush allowing Clinton's crap to proceed is what caused this to happen. He had an opportunity to stop it but let it go to help the banks screw more people out of money.

      Don't blame Clinton entirely when Bush had plenty of opportunity to shut it down before it got too bad.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    22. Re:Skewed Priorities by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 1

      Ultimately it's the SEC and HUD to do two things.

      First, it's HUD's job to make sure that housing prices are affordable and do not artificially inflate, and make sure that people can not only move into homes but also not be thrown out on their ass.

      Second, it's the SEC's job to make sure that securities sold on the market pass the smell test, which none of these mortgage backed securities did.

      The SEC is wholly responsible for this mess. We either need to rebuild it, or reform it, but not ignore it.

      --
      Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
    23. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not a single person is getting out of paying for their homes, and keeping them that is, it's only changing loan conditions.

      Great. So I get to pay money for people who accepted crappy loans, after I purposely did NOT get myself into trouble by paying attention to what I agreed to.

      So, ultimately, people who made deals they couldn't afford get to keep their houses that they can't really afford, while those of us who made smart decisions and only bought what they could afford get punished for it.

      This is the government of the US paying for it's past mistakes of unregulated distribution of resources,

      Too bad the real fault is government regulation, started by Carter and made worse under Clinton. Deregulation didn't cause this problem, the government requiring banks to make risky loans caused the problem. If the banks were allowed to refuse to offer risky loans being asked by people who couldn't really afford them, we wouldn't be in this mess.

      But, thanks to Democrat Party regulation, they weren't.

      Oh and since you consider debt relief to be a human rights violation I can't wait to hear what you call forced homelessness and starvation.

      Who's calling for forced homelessness and starvation? I don't want people living in houses they can't afford to be on the street, I want them to be forced into cheaper houses that they CAN afford. You're creating a false dichotomy.

    24. Re:Skewed Priorities by garett_spencley · · Score: 1

      Corporatism is another word for fascism. It's a government/business partnership.

      I really want people to realize this, because it's actually just as opposed to free-market and laissez-faire "capitalism" as socialism and communism is. Actually, what lots of people don't realize is that the word "capitalism" has never existed anywhere in the framing of the US legal system. It was a word coined by Karl Marx to vilify the free market economy. The USA was never "capitalist", it was "free".

      The free market economy means just that. It has absolutely no bias. It does not play favourites. It does not take from one group and give to another. The people are always in control. Every penny spent in the market is a vote. A company can become extremely huge and "successful" only through satisfying the people's needs. A rich person can easily become poor if he fails to satisfy the people's needs in the market. Only through government protection can a rich person permanently stay rich.

      Corporatism / Fascism, on the other hand, is when government starts giving hand-outs to big business at the expense of everyone. It starts with trade barriers and tariffs that are sold to the people by claiming that it will "save jobs, preventing them from going oversees". Antitrust regulations, imposed for the fallacious reason of protecting the free market, are actually favoured by the very companies the people think they're designed to hurt. They actually help them by making it very expensive for new competition to enter the market. Any kind of regulation, when you really examine their effects in detail, almost always do the opposite of what the people were told they would accomplish. Safety regulations that are imposed on all businesses, indiscriminately, favour massive corporations who can easily comply with them, while restricting new businesses who have limited capital etc.

      Labour unions also play a role but what is extremely sad is that they do not realize it. They consider themselves exploited proletarians who need to balance the power. In some cases they're right. They are being exploited by a monopoly and have little where else to seek employment. What they do not realize is that they help to further deteriorate the situation by restricting competition in the labour market and further distorting market prices for labour. This creates institutional unemployment, making the situation worse for themselves, but also adding fuel to the cause of government and corporations by giving them an excuse to claim that we need further intervention in the market to stop unemployment.

      The last thing that needs to be pointed out is that the single biggest advance in the pursuit of corporatism / fascism in the USA is the Federal Reserve. Contrary to what many laymen believe, the Fed is not government-owned. They are as federal as Federal Express. They are a PRIVATE corporation with special privileges that make it impossible for the government to so much as audit them. By controlling the entire supply of money they cause the boom / bust cycle, promote malinvestment by artificially influencing interest rates, HEAVILY influence government policy (Tim Geithner, the Treasury Secretary, is the former President of the New York Federal Reserve Bank!) and directly cause inflation every time they print more money. Increasing the supply of money lowers the value of the dollar, causing prices to rise. Many people are concerned that all of the government's current spending projects is directly caused by ill advisement on the part of the Fed, and is a plot by the bankers to deliberately cause people to lose confidence in the US dollar in order to establish a new "North American Currency" similar to the Euro. The same thing was done in Germany in 1923 by running the printing presses. It's called hyperinflation. For more info see: http://endthefed.us/

    25. Re:Skewed Priorities by Toandeaf · · Score: 1

      interesting that the housing bubble occurred under Bush then...

    26. Re:Skewed Priorities by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      might have a chance to at least slow down the drop in housing prices.

      You mean, "might have a chance to continue screwing over those of us who were RESPONSIBLE enough to realize we couldn't afford a house during the bubble! Fuckers!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    27. Re:Skewed Priorities by russotto · · Score: 1

      Not a single person is getting out of paying for their homes, and keeping them that is, it's only changing loan conditions.

      You must have missed the proposals for allowing reduction of the loan PRINCIPAL amounts in certain cases. I don't believe any have passed yet, but President Obama has been pushing for one of them, big time.

      As a homeowner with a fixed-rate mortgage that I pay every month, it pisses me off that someone who did something stupid (like take out a 5/1 ARM with interest rates historical lows and home prices at historical highs) is going to be rewarded by essentially being _given_ some of the value of their home. Particularly when the money to do that will be coming, indirectly, from people like ME.

    28. Re:Skewed Priorities by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      I would think you'd want to spend $1000 because if four or five houses around you get repossessed you might find you lose $50,000 off the value of your home.

      Hey asshole, he deserves to lose $50K off the value of his home! Why? Because his house is was never worth that extra $50K to begin with! You know what the damn housing bubble really did? It locked all the responsible people, who could have afforded a home at uninflated prices, out of the market! So now all the people who actually weren't morons, and knew better than to get insane interest-only loans, are finally just about able to get our reward. And now you want to screw us out of it again! Well FUCK YOU, FUCK HIM, FUCK THE GOVERNMENT, and FUCK EVERYONE ELSE WHO'S TRYING TO ARTIFICIALLY INFLATE HOUSING PRICES YET A-FUCKING-GAIN!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    29. Re:Skewed Priorities by Omestes · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Democrat Party

      Its called the DEMOCRATIC party. I don't know where this "democrat" party meme came from, but I'm sick of it. All it does is make the speaker sound uninformed and ignorant of the thing they rail against so jingoistically.

      Perhaps I should start calling the republican party "wepubwican party", that would make me sound mature, and make all the attached arguments so much more worthy of attention.

      As to the meat of your statement, I half agree, people should be held responsible for their loans, they signed the paper work, therefore they agreed to the consiquences. I can see some issue though, were individual problems quickly balloon and become a serious problem to the rest of us, though. I'm rather tossed on the issue.

      No, the Democrats of the Democratic party are not wholly to blame, though they must accept some share of it. Republicans deserve a decent share too for deregulation. The whole corporate ethos deserves even more blaim, since they decided that untenable short-term greed was more important than the long term health of their own companies (much less the economy as a whole). More so the very idea that our whole economy can be based on debt and not real funds.

      Blaming on party is rather idiotic. Yes, being partisan is easy, and doesn't require much thought, but it also leads to making silly statements. I personally have a grudge against anyone who sits around regurgitating sound bites emanating from any side of our political system.

      The only rational people are independents and moderates. The second you buy a whole proper-noun ideology, you probably divorced yourself from reality.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    30. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I refuse to call them anything but the Democrat Party after they decided that they weren't actually going to bother allowing their own delegates to vote during the convention.

      Had they actually decided to be even slightly democratic and COUNT the votes, Hillary would easily have won the nomination.

      Instead, they stopped the vote count and just appointed Obama.

      Which is amazingly ironic when you consider all the whining about Bush "stealing" the election.

      That's not where the meme started, but that's why they'll always be the "Democrat Party" to me - full of people who call themselves "Democrats" but won't stand for democracy in their own party.

    31. Re:Skewed Priorities by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      lol... carter to clinton.

      Nice way to completely ignore 16 years of republican rule in that period.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    32. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Question: If the plan to bailout/assist people with upside-down mortgages goes through, it will cost about $1000 per taxpaying home. Why should I spend $1000 to pay somebody else's mortgage? And would this be considered corporatism, socialism, or communism?

      The US financial bailout plan was designed to inject public funds (i.e., your tax money) into companies that were at the risk of going under due to being poorly managed. It benefits all sorts of companies that don't even deal directly with "somebody else's mortgage". So, it is rather obvious that it is pure corporatism.

      The beautiful thing is that although it's a state financial plan that was design solely to help out poorly managed global corporations, somehow the people behind that plan and behind the companies that are being given billions somehow were successful at convincing useful idiots that handing out billions to corporations is somehow a way to help out "the people" and not them.

    33. Re:Skewed Priorities by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>Your not paying $1000 for someone else's mortgage.

      Hello??? Don't you watch the news? The proposed Mortgage Bailout will provide money *directly* to troubled homeowners. So yes MY taxes that I pay every week, if the bill passes, will be used to buy somebody else's house. Why should I give-up $1000 of my money & labor to buy another person's Lexus.... er, house? No reason I can think of.

      If they can't afford the house, they should sell it and rent an apartment, not steal ~50 hours of my sweat.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    34. Re:Skewed Priorities by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>Some of those "predatory loans" were impossible to pay off.

      Then don't buy. Save the money first, and pay cash. (Yeah I know; a shocking concept. But it's worked for me. Not a single dollar of debt.)

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    35. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      universal, single-payer health *insurance* system would reduce redundancy,

      Cool. Can I still have my private insurance and not pay for the universal? I like having a choice, as competition creates better prices for everyone.

    36. Re:Skewed Priorities by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      The housing bubble occurred under *both* Clinton and Bush. Historically the real value of a house hovers at $100,000 to $120,000, and homes were already inflated during Clinton's second term.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    37. Re:Skewed Priorities by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>>>Nobody has a right to demand I help buy them a car. Or pay their mortgage.

      >>So we have absolutely no problem giving 700 BILLION dollars to the bank

      Strawman argument. I never said I have no problem. I was thrilled when the Republicans voted "no" and blocked the TARP back in November, and disappointed when it eventually passed. I don't want to give my money to the banks either. I don't want to give my money to anybody; I only want to fund the things that are specifically enumerated in the Constitution.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    38. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... No one is demanding anything more than has been demanded for the life of this country, as well as others, and that is that the people pay for the benefits of the government...

      I call bullshit. The idea that the government should use tax dollars (and/or credit) to help large numbers of people get houses they can't afford is recent.

      I watched a lot of this mess (since the 80's, before that I didn't pay much attention) from my apartment on the sidelines, because housing prices always moved up faster than my income. I was advised often to do whatever was necessary to buy a house, but I never felt comfortable overextending my finances.

        I am more certain than ever that I did the right thing, but I have taken an awful lot of crap over the years, and it really grates to see the Obama administration leaning on the bloated stupid, lazy, kept credit industry to do more of the same stupid stuff (buying people houses they can't afford) that got us into this mess, and spending money the taxpayers don't have for pork.

      I am living on less than 20K per year now (down from 70K in 2001), there really isn't much left.

    39. Re:Skewed Priorities by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>I can't wait to hear what you call forced homelessness and starvation.

      We have a safety net called welfare and food stamps and communal housing. If people choose not to avail themselves of these safety nets, they have no one to blame but themselves. I am willing to pay that expense.

      As for buying a Lexus or house, I am Not willing to do that. If you can't afford to keep up, sell both and move into an apartment, as I did when I was young and without money.

      >>>the people pay for the benefits of the government.

      A government that violates human rights by stealing money, property, or labor from its citizens (whether for itself or for wealth redistribution) is a government that is illegitimate. It is causing more damage than benefit.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    40. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, remind me, when in those 16 years did the housing market collapse?

      Carter laid the foundation, but it wasn't until Clinton that the current situation was created. You can trace the roots back to Carter, but the current mortgage crisis was caused by the Democrats under Clinton.

      You'll note the economy only really collapsed after the Democrats were in control of Congress, and absolutely plummeted when Obama was elected. There's a reason for that.

    41. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go fuck yourself, you deliberately ignorant mouth-breathing moron. Bush didn't "allow it", Bush TRIED TO STOP IT.

      Here's the problem, reported by the Washington Post in 2004:

      Report Slams Fannie Mae
      Fannie Mae, the giant mortgage finance company, has used improper accounting methods that raise serious questions about the quality of its management and the validity of its financial reports, government regulators reported yesterday.


      Though it didn't quantify the effect of what it called pervasive misapplication of accounting rules on the company's books, the report by the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight cited one instance in 1998 where the company inappropriately deferred $200 million of estimated expenses, which enabled management to receive full annual bonuses. Had Fannie recorded the expenses in 1998, no bonus would have been paid, the report said.


      The report also detailed numerous transactions over several years where it said Fannie Mae management intentionally smoothed out gyrations in its earnings to show investors it was a low-risk company. Fannie "maintained a corporate culture that emphasized stable earnings at the expense of accurate financial disclosures," regulators said in a letter to the company.

      Here's who put a stop to the stopping:

      Video of DEMOCRATS covering for those problems reported above.

      Here's a list of some of those DEMOCRATS:

      Maxine Waters: Through nearly a dozen hearings, we were frankly trying to fix something that wasnâ(TM)t broke. Mr. Chairman, we do not have a crisis at Freddie Mac, and particularly at Fannie Mae, under the outstanding leadership of Franklin Raines.

      Gregory Meeks: ⦠I'm just pissed off at OFHEO [the regulators trying to warn Congress of insolvency at the GSEs], because if it wasn't for you, I don't think we'd be here in the first place. ... There's been nothing that indicated that's wrong with Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac has come up on its own ... The question that then comes up is the competence that your agency has with reference to deciding and regulating these GSEs.

      Lacy Clay: This hearing is about the political lynching of Franklin Raines.

      Barney Frank: I don't see anything in this report that raises safety and soundness problems.

      Maxine Waters? Hmmm, could she be a CROOK?

      Waters Helped Bank Whose Stock She Once Owned

      WASHINGTON -- When Rep. Barney Frank was looking to aid a Boston-based lender last fall, the Massachusetts Democrat urged Maxine Waters, a colleague on the House Financial Services Committee, to "stay out of it," he says.

      The reason: Ms. Waters, a longtime congresswoman from California, had close ties to the minority-owned institution, OneUnited Bank.

      Ms. Waters and her husband have both held financial stakes in the bank. Until recently, her husband was a director. At the same time, Ms. Waters has publicly boosted OneUnited's executives and criticized its government regulators during congressional hearings. Last fall, she helped secure the bank a meeting with Treasury officials.

      Barney Frank?

      Media Mum on Barney Frank's Fannie Mae Love Connection

      Prominent Democrats ran Fannie Mae, the same government-sponsored enterprise (GSE) that donated campaign cash to top Democrats. And one of Fannie Mae's main defenders in the House - Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., a recipient of more than $40,000 in campaign donations from Fan

    42. Re:Skewed Priorities by couchslug · · Score: 1

      " people severely hurt by an unregulated financial industry."

      That's rather like banging a hooker then being "hurt" by getting the crabs.

      I had the chance to get ARMs on my houses. That's fucking stupid, so I didn't do it.
      I had the chance to borrow far more than I could afford to pay. That's fucking stupid, so I didn't do it.
      I had the chance to get second mortgages. That's fucking stupid, so I didn't do it.

      I will regurgitate the classic rant I heard from Depression survivors in my youth. I listened.

      "How DARE you buy shit you don't need or cannot afford! Buy CHEAP, because you need shelter, you don't need luxury. How dare you waste money. Buy quality, not crap, even if you have to wait for it. Pay off your mortgage early."

      Just because industries give you the opportunity to do stupid shit doesn't mean that is a Good Idea.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    43. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously, you know nothing about the mortgage assistance programs that are being approved. Principal reductions on government owned mortgages (e.g., FNMA, etc.) are a direct transfer of wealth from tax payers. Additionally, the big banks have extorted enormous amounts from tax payers via the TARP fund and from dollar holders via the Federal Reserve discount window (effectively a subsidy at these rates). In return, these big banks are reducing mortgage principals (in some cases) and renegotiating loan terms.

      What it amounts to is:
      1. Cost to the tax payer
      2. Benefit to big banks
      3. Benefit to people who borrowed more than they could afford to buy a home

      Also, the problem was not an unregulated financial industry. The problem was a misregulated financial industry. In order to have a properly functioning financial system, you need one of the following:
      1. Draconian regulation to discourage executives from pursuing short term profits at the expense of long term profits
      2. A completely unregulated financial system, where the very real possibility of failure guides financiers to more conservative risk management

      What we effectively have is 2., but without the possibility of failure. As they say, capitalism without failure is like Christianity without hell--nothing disuades one from sinning.

      Greenspan never admitted to his mistake. In fact, he has been campaigning in newspaper Op-eds, media appearances, etc. saying that it's not his fault and he still contends that it is impossible to spot a bubble until after it has popped.

      PS: Responding to rhetoric in kind... *rolls eyes*

    44. Re:Skewed Priorities by LateArthurDent · · Score: 1

      Question: If the plan to bailout/assist people with upside-down mortgages goes through, it will cost about $1000 per taxpaying home. Why should I spend $1000 to pay somebody else's mortgage? And would this be considered corporatism, socialism, or communism?

      IMHO whatever it's called, it's a human rights violation.

      Taking my money to pay somebody else's housing bill is theft of labor. It's no different than if my neighbor bought a Lexus, and then demanded everyone in the area throw-in money to pay the bill. Nobody has a right to demand I help buy them a car. Or pay their mortgage.

      I think it's fine for you to believe that (and I would even agree with you), as long as you're consistent an also against my money and yours being used to bail out the lenders. Why should I spend money because they made bad business decisions? Let them go bankrupt.

    45. Re:Skewed Priorities by King_TJ · · Score: 1

      Wow... another "anti free market" diatribe on here!

      Greenspan never apologized for his "mistake" in believing in the free market. He simply agreed that maybe the situation was more complicated than he originally envisioned (primarily because he didn't count on people's personal greed being such a driving force that they'd tear apart their OWN businesses for the sake of some short-term personal gain).

      Since the beginning of this country, people have demanded government be as SMALL as possible, to prevent it putting too much of a drain on people's incomes. Yes, government requires money to run, and yes, it's unfortunately a necessity to keep a nation running. But every time someone says "There oughta be a law...." or "Government needs to help out with...." -- they should stop and consider the gravity of those statements.

      Lately, there seems to be this groundswell of people wanting to throw the baby out with the bath-water when it comes to the free market.

      I, for one, think a free marketplace is the ONLY option of government I want to live under! We've given the bankers FAR too much power and authority, and we're all suffering for it now. But that doesn't justify moving towards a socialist system, or towards an authoritarian system, or any other such option.

      Several of the "founding fathers" were very afraid the idea of "central banking" would lead us into serious problems, while others were strongly for it. It appears those against it (like Jefferson) were more correct than wrong....

    46. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Greenspan and Reagan both touted free market principles, but in practice did not implement them. Greenspan especially paid lip-service to liberterian ideas about the nature of government (see his writings for Ayn Rand), but given the chance, he meddled in the markets, preventing major blowups that should have happened and holding rates at artificial levels.

      Also, you should look at the net effect instead of the mechanics of how we're being screwed. The GP is pretty much right in saying that it is going to cost the homeowners who didn't do stupid things, and that that money will be transferred to the incompetent people who did. And I agree with him, it's a human rights violation. Stop trying to distort the issue.

    47. Re:Skewed Priorities by asdfghjklqwertyuiop · · Score: 1

      Really? What kind of loan was this called?

    48. Re:Skewed Priorities by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Why post anonymously? Oh, also why are you neglecting to list the Republicans that were responsible as well? Oops.

      Way to make a useless and baseless point!

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    49. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One counter-argument is that by not helping home owners, land values will drop. That will cause more people to drop their mortgages as they are now paying for imaginary value that no longer exists (300k mortgage on a 100k house, for example). I don't know where the argument goes from there.

    50. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These posts have given me a new idea:

      A double-headed coin where each head constantly blames the other for landing on the wrong side. I think I'll call it the "Republocrat Coin".

      Think it'll catch on?

    51. Re:Skewed Priorities by rtfa-troll · · Score: 1

      And you're not reading between the lines.

      The proposed Mortgage Bailout will provide money *directly* to troubled homeowners.

      the definition of "troubled" basically means 'people for whom any extra money they get goes directly to the bank'. It's slightly better than giving to the bank directly since it slows down foreclosure but that's not done for the benefit of these people. That's done to try to slow the rate at which properties become available on the market and so the rate at which the property market collapses. In order to help the banks. Your money is more likely going to pay for lexuses (lexi??) than new homes.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    52. Re:Skewed Priorities by Ashriel · · Score: 1

      You'll only pay when/if your country gets repossessed. :)

      Yep. At this point it only takes 1 or 2 foreign central banks to decide that investment in the dollar is too risky and cash in their T-bills. That will start a flurry of selling worldwide, and we'll wake up in a country where it costs $100,000 to buy a loaf of bread.

      As absurd and unrealistic as that might sound to some, we're really not far off from that. We could always hope that everyone else in the world continues to prop us up for no real reason, but that just seems like denial to me.

    53. Re:Skewed Priorities by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      It is pretty funny that Greenspan who ran basically the most interventionist Fed the USA has ever seen (of course Bernanke has out done him already) is trying to blame the free market for his idiot acts of intervention by faking up an apology.

      It's not so funny that people just believe him.

      Using "Greenspan" and "free market" without a negation is the same sentence is absurd.

    54. Re:Skewed Priorities by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      Yes add some price controls to keep home prices high. So that people not prepared to enter into a ridiculous loan can't afford one.

      Why not let the damn prices fall to normal levels so that normal people can buy them and not just the super rich, the super stupid, and the super dishonest?

    55. Re:Skewed Priorities by Ashriel · · Score: 1

      I'll commend you on creating the most reasonable sounding pro free market post I've read on Slashdot.

      For the most part, I agree with you. We disagree only in two areas: publicly traded corporations and the privatization of certain social institutions (health care, early education, and prison systems mainly). I'm only going to talk about the former in this post.

      Public corporations have become so large that no attempt at dissuading them from being a societal harm is effective, and the people who run them are protected from accountability for their actions.

      A free market economy works beautifully when you're dealing with small business, worker-owned cooperatives, and small, privately owned corporations. But when the influx of public funding, corporations become too large to stop, and they have no moral compass to guide them. Profit for it's own sake leads to the construction of cartels, artificial scarcity, outsourcing of practically everything (not necessarily a bad thing here, but it is bad from an American-only perspective), and cultivation of a "mindless consumer" outlook (as an aside, am I the only one offended when my elected representatives refer to me as a "consumer" rather than as a "citizen"?). I'm not even going to get into the actual criminal actions that prevent free market activities.

      In other words, I'm arguing that - more than the government - publicly traded corporations are a threat to the free market, not a result of it.

      So when it comes to regulation of these monstrosities, I argue that they are not legal persons, but manifestations of interstate commerce, and Congress is fully authorized to regulate and control them as much as they'd like. On the other hand, I think the federal government needs to back off from intrastate business completely.

      Honestly, I think corporate regulation doesn't go far enough. If it were within my power, I'd eliminate the public stock market altogether.

      Oh, and kudos for the End the Fed argument. Maybe some day, the government will wake up and realize that it needs to take back control over its currency. Hopefully before hyperinflation (although, with hyperinflation predictions as early as the end of this year, and no later than 2018, I seriously doubt it).

    56. Re:Skewed Priorities by poopdeville · · Score: 1

      Who said I did? I was squarely blaming the upper middle class for the housing and credit bubbles.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    57. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why post anonymously? Oh, also why are you neglecting to list the Republicans that were responsible as well? Oops.

      Way to make a useless and baseless point!

      Bullshit. Instead of resorting to ad hominem attacks, why not find evidence of Republicans covering up for Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae's malfaesance?

      Our current finanical difficulties stem directly from trillions of dollars of toxic mortgages generated from DEMOCRAT-supported programs, and the videos and news stories I linked demonstrate DEMOCRATS covering up for that.

      The reason there are no videos of Republicans running interference for Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae is that there were no Republicans running interference for Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae.

      So pull your head out of your ass.

      And why don't you find that CRA-inspired lawsuits that have a certain currently-prominent DEMOCRAT pol on it as a lawyer. It's out there....

    58. Re:Skewed Priorities by neumayr · · Score: 1

      Right now, you shouldn't be buying a house anyway.
      Letting the bubble burst completely? Great, let's start over! Reboot the world's economy, it was getting stale anyway.
      Or could it be you're a wee bit on the selfish side there?

      --
      Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
    59. Re:Skewed Priorities by neumayr · · Score: 1
      --
      Truth arises more readily from error than from confusion. -Francis Bacon
    60. Re:Skewed Priorities by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Quit posting anonymously you coward!

      Blame Democrats, blame Democrats.

      Blame yourself for not shooting the fuckers in the head the moment you learned of their bullshit.

      I've long known every politician is out to screw us - you just focus on the Democrats. there are plenty of Republicans. You don't see shit about them because the MEDIA IS REPUBLICAN-OWNED. Forget that fact? Of course it's in their best interest to spin this bullshit.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    61. Re:Skewed Priorities by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      Selfish would be expecting to live on credit for a decade and never have to pay it back. It's not a matter of "letting" the bubble burst completely. There are only two options:

      1. House prices return to normal, the US standard of living declines significantly.

      2. House prices are kept artificially high, some of the money printed to do that spills over into the rest of the economy and inflation runs rampant, the US standard of living declines significantly and takes much longer to recover than option 1.

      Yes I'd prefer they government didn't unleash inflation and make the problem worse, but I guess that's being selfish.

      Of course either way I'll be fine. I have enough savings to survive the big down turn in option 1. Enough of those savings (nowhere near all though) are non-US based and will do OK in the inflation of option 2. Is that selfish too?

    62. Re:Skewed Priorities by JAlexoi · · Score: 1

      OMG! WTF! Wealth redistribution is NOT A HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION! Neither is communism(otherwise you should bomb your Amish population). Read up on human rights, because your misunderstanding is showing.

    63. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right, it's not socialism or communism, the proles don't see a cent. It's just good ol' fascism.

    64. Re:Skewed Priorities by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      So a plane has three engines out and the last one is on fire and you are given control of the plain and it crashes 30 seconds later and it is your fault.

      God republicans are so pathetic these days.

      Democrats are pathetic for completely different reasons but republicans have been complete tools for about the last 16 years. Owned by the corporations and kowtowing to the extreme religious wing (while never... "quite" succeeding-- all the better to keep the religious wing on the hook).

      Pathetic! Completely pathetic.

      Both parties created this problem. It's clear to the independents that both parties created this problem.

      And then some republican posts "It's all obama's fault" after a combined 20 years for republicans spending like drunken sailors. REAL republicans would have shrunk government. REAL republicans would have *lead* and made hard decisions to cut difficult programs and cut taxes only if it didn't result in destroying the dollar.

      Even Reagan, who I voted for twice, contributed mightily to the destruction of this country.

      And greenspan putting interest rates at 1% and holding them there for so long is a primary cause of the housing bubble.

      The other cause, red herrings about the anti-redlining loans aside, was that the Bush administration didn't enforce the law on businesses, it gutted the SEC, it let businesses run completely wild because they were "his base".

      It's pathetic.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    65. Re:Skewed Priorities by regular_gonzalez · · Score: 1

      Where is this money that the government will give to the corporations coming from?

      --
      Due to circumstances beyond my control, I am master of my fate and captain of my soul.
    66. Re:Skewed Priorities by garett_spencley · · Score: 1

      "Public corporations have become so large that no attempt at dissuading them from being a societal harm is effective, and the people who run them are protected from accountability for their actions."

      This is not a new claim. People have been claiming that large businesses and corporations have made it impossible for new competition to enter the market due to their sheer size for well over 100 years. In some instances a company may be so efficient, may serve the people so well that no other company dares enter the market because there is no perceived way to do it better. However, as long as there is anticipated demand, entrepreneurs will jump at the chance to profit and will use their own capital, and perhaps borrow some as well, to enter the market and compete.

      The only thing that can prevent that from happening is a monopoly, which is almost always government-granted. As long as there is no monopoly the people will always keep big business in check because of (as you yourself pointed out): profit for the sake of profit. If you don't provide the people with what they want you hurt your profits.

      "Profit for it's own sake leads to the construction of cartels, artificial scarcity, outsourcing of practically everything (not necessarily a bad thing here, but it is bad from an American-only perspective), and cultivation of a "mindless consumer" outlook (as an aside, am I the only one offended when my elected representatives refer to me as a "consumer" rather than as a "citizen"?). I'm not even going to get into the actual criminal actions that prevent free market activities."

      That's a lot of points right there. So I'll break it down and deal with each point individually.

      1) Profit for the sake of profit. Every human action is driven towards the improvement of personal conditions. There is no such thing as "true altruism" in the sense that people who decide to live entirely for the benefit of others derive some satisfaction, or relieve some felt uneasiness (it might be the fear of God, for example) and so forth. The idea behind the free market is that it is precisely the drive for an improvement in personal conditions that causes us to serve others. We can not accomplish everything by ourselves. We can not produce all of our own clothes while also building our homes and mending our clothes etc. We need to exchange with others in order to improve our own conditions. This is the fundamental principle behind the free market.

      2) Construction of cartels. In a truly free market, private collusion (a cartel) is extremely unstable and always short lived because it always takes just one company to decide to break away from the cartel for competitive reasons and the entire alliance falls apart. Furthermore, if companies are colluding to raise prices above the market rate this creates an extremely tempting opportunity for competitors to enter the market, destroying the entire set-up. In our present situation it's always government regulations that prevent new competition from entering industries (usually sold to the people as a way to "keep jobs at home", or "too big to fail" when a restructuring occurs) thus allowing the cartels to remain active.

      3) Artificial scarcity can only be achieved through monopoly. In this case the business restricts production in order to raise the prices, achieving what is called a monopoly price. Monopoly prices are problematic and do hurt the consumer, but no so much as people tend to make them out to be. As long as it's not an essential resource there is a maximum price where the company will see it's highest profits. The market price is a reflection of the consumer's combined subjective value. A monopoly price exceeds that subjective value and thus the higher the price goes the less demand there is. If the company raises the price too high it will actually start to lose money because enough people will simply do without the product. In the case of essential resources (the only ones I can think of are local utilities) you need to choose between 2 ev

    67. Re:Skewed Priorities by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Oh and since you consider debt relief to be a human rights violation I can't wait to hear what you call forced homelessness and starvation.

      I would call it an incentive. You know, to find or create a job to support one's self. But naw, that would make too much sense! We are supposed to be a land of the FREE and LAZY damnit! Right?

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    68. Re:Skewed Priorities by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      You fucking scare me! Government enforced communism *IS* a violation of human rights!!! No place in the history of all humanity has communism led to freedom and prosperity; in fact quite the opposite.

      Communists should be shot on site as a form of collateral damage to spare the rest of humanity from the pain and suffering they inflict.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    69. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't wait to hear what you call forced homelessness and starvation

      Uh so instead of paying 2800 a month for a house that they can not afford they will be paying 500-1200 a month for an apartment/house.

      If they are out of a job they will not be able to make the payment no matter WHAT restructured loan occurs.

      Reagan did *NOT* do what you are seeing now. Our congress did. The ones who have been around since 1995ish and forward. They removed rules that were put in place in the 1930s to STOP this sort of shit going on. They removed the rules and guess what people went and did it again. Greenspan miscalculated HUGE that people would not do stupid things with their money. Removal of the uptick rule, and some crazy crap going on with who was getting loans, then piling thousands of bad loans together (a giant pile of shit is still shit) and calling it AAA credit, then reloaning it out. THAT is what caused this mess. The banks bought congress critters to put these laws into place. Got them attached to other bills which did something else and poof law. All in the name of 'making sure everyone has a chance for a home' and 'reducing paperwork'.

      If it were not for Regan and his policies we would still be enjoying things such as 18% interest rates to buy a house. Or as my uncle said 'anyone who tells you the late 70s was awesome is a dirty liar and needs to put down their triple latte and shut the hell up they do not know what they are talking about'.

      You probably are cool with a 90% tax rate too arent you? Well do you REALLY think the government can spend your money better than you? That is the broken window fallacy.

      You should read 'the lesson' http://jim.com/econ/

      If you want to blame republicans for this mess go right ahead if that makes you feel better. But democrats had their hand in this too. To ignore that is dishonest.

      Also if you think this stimulus package is going to help. You are wrong. It will help only very short term (a couple of months). The market will absorb the money rebalance and pick up right where it left off. Just like the last 3 of these that they have done. It is amazingly inflationary. In 5-10 years you will think 5 dollar per gallon gas is cheap.

    70. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Taking my money to pay somebody else's housing bill is theft of labor.

      As far as I'm concerned, taking my money from me for any reason without my say-so is theft. While being forced to pay someone else's mortgage is bad enough, I'd much rather pay Joe Random-and-family-living-outside-what-they-can-afford's mortgage than pay for the continued existence of the abominable DHS and whatnot.

      Even though the income tax is legally opt-in, you're forced to pay it or suffer consequences akin to not paying a loan shark.

      You have almost no say in how much money is taken or what it's used for. It's not the bailout plan that's theft, it's all taxes.

    71. Re:Skewed Priorities by Ashriel · · Score: 1

      You raise some excellent arguments, and reading through your counterpoints, mostly all that came to mind was "but that's not how things are", which is not really a counterargument when discussing ideology.

      However, there are a few points you make that are worth arguing over.

      However, as long as there is anticipated demand, entrepreneurs will jump at the chance to profit and will use their own capital, and perhaps borrow some as well, to enter the market and compete.

      ...

      The only thing that can prevent that from happening is a monopoly, which is almost always government-granted.

      My issues here are both the idea that only a monopoly can discourage competition and that monopolies are government-granted.

      Large chain stores have pretty much destroyed small independent retailers and grocers - they simply couldn't compete with the lower prices that came with shipping goods in large bulk. You probably regard this as an overall increase in efficiency and all for the good, but I see it as the destruction of the small-time entrepreneur, who now instead of some measure of independence has to man a check-out aisle for his supplanter.

      The thing I always loved about New York City was the complete lack of giant, impersonal national chains. Square footage in the city is at such a premium, and the storefronts so small that the national retail chains can't move supplies in bulk and make profit from it. Sure, everything costs an arm and a leg there, but the pay is commensurate, and the strong sense of independent entrepreneurship is refreshing.

      We don't see many monopolies in the U.S. due to anti-monopoly regulation, not because of the impracticality or difficulty of establishing a monopoly. The monopolies that exist do so because they are allowed to exist. If existing regulations were removed, we'd see a bit of cannibalization followed by several new emerging monopolies all over the place.

      Every human action is driven towards the improvement of personal conditions. There is no such thing as "true altruism" in the sense that people who decide to live entirely for the benefit of others derive some satisfaction, or relieve some felt uneasiness (it might be the fear of God, for example) and so forth.

      That's a pretty open interpretation of profit when it includes such intangible concepts as "satisfaction" and "relief of uneasiness". There are some who offer aid to others out of logic as well - I'm one of those. I suppose you could say I barter with gratitude, but the way I see it, advancing the species as a whole advances myself by definition (no, I'm not an altruist).

      And there is such a thing as true altruism - we have many examples of martyrs in our history. Many of them arguably knew (or at least suspected) their end and continued on anyway out of a sense of moral responsibility.

      A country's exports pay for it's imports. If a country is not producing something locally it can not purchase anything from abroad. So the sheer fact that products and resources are being purchased from abroad means that things are being produced at home. It can't work any other way.

      I wish that were true, but the U.S. is the perfect example of ongoing unbalanced trade deficit. Now, I'll admit that this is almost certainly a direct result of having fiat currency. If indeed it is, then having free trade and a free market without a having a hard currency first is insanely stupid. I suspect we both agree on that point.

      In the case of labour, specifically, if a company can get cheaper labour from overseas it has a lower cost of production. This means the products it sells will cost lower. People who buy it's products have more money in their pocket and thus will spend more on domestic production. It is always in everyone's best interest to produce what they can produce most efficiently, and buy everything else at the cheapest they can get it at.

      Yes, but wh

    72. Re:Skewed Priorities by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Wow, you're an idiot. (See also the reply to the post you just cited.)

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    73. Re:Skewed Priorities by garett_spencley · · Score: 1

      "My issues here are both the idea that only a monopoly can discourage competition and that monopolies are government-granted.

      Large chain stores have pretty much destroyed small independent retailers and grocers - they simply couldn't compete with the lower prices that came with shipping goods in large bulk. You probably regard this as an overall increase in efficiency and all for the good, but I see it as the destruction of the small-time entrepreneur, who now instead of some measure of independence has to man a check-out aisle for his supplanter.

      The thing I always loved about New York City was the complete lack of giant, impersonal national chains. Square footage in the city is at such a premium, and the storefronts so small that the national retail chains can't move supplies in bulk and make profit from it. Sure, everything costs an arm and a leg there, but the pay is commensurate, and the strong sense of independent entrepreneurship is refreshing.

      We don't see many monopolies in the U.S. due to anti-monopoly regulation, not because of the impracticality or difficulty of establishing a monopoly. The monopolies that exist do so because they are allowed to exist. If existing regulations were removed, we'd see a bit of cannibalization followed by several new emerging monopolies all over the place."

      Actually you DO see monopolies all the time in the US. The only thing is, you don't realize that they're monopolies. You have monopolies in education, law, health care, textiles, pharmaceuticals, media / entertainment and so on. Every time the government imposes restrictions on an industry it inadvertently makes competition extremely difficult. In Canada, for example, there are no laws preventing private schools from operating, but since every single individual is taxed to pay for public schools and people can send their kids to public schools for free, private schools are virtually unheard of except for the extremely expensive boarding schools. The FDA, in the USA, imposes strict regulations on testing and marketing of pharmaceuticals. This is sold very easily to the public by claiming that it makes them safer. However, it limits competition, restricts choice, allows the pharmaceutical companies to enter into STABLE cartels (since entry into the industry is extremely rare and unlikely thanks to the government, so the few extremely large corps can collude to limit production, introducing artificial scarcity, and raise prices) ... and it hurts everyone.

      On the issue of department stores. I'm a hobby chef. So I have something to say about big super markets. I HATE the crap food that gets sold at those big grocers. So I could easily be frightened that these big mega-corp grocery stores are putting the little guys out of business. You know what, they may be taking a significant market-share. But that's because the majority of the people want cheaper food, not better food. As for the hobby-chefs like me, I actually have NO problem finding small grocers and farmers markets that sell me top quality produce. Yes I have to pay a little more but that's the price we pay for disagreeing with everyone else. As long as there is a demand, there will be a supplier. As long as people like you and me hate shopping at Wallmart there will be alternatives. And you know what ? I don't shop at Wallmart. EVER. I don't have a problem finding alternatives. They're more expensive but that's my choice.

      The only way a chain can completely "destroy" the competition is to either satisfy every single consumer to such a degree that virtually no one wants to shop elsewhere, or to have a government-supported monopoly. It is fair to say that Wallmart put little chains out of business. But that's because those little chains were selling the exact same product for a higher price. So this is a classic case of a company satisfying the customers more and thus gaining market share. However, if you think that's a scary scenario you are falling into the fallacy of focusing only on pri

    74. Re:Skewed Priorities by theaveng · · Score: 1

      Still better to give to the homeowners, because they spend the money on themselves (pay the mortgage), whereas if the money went to the banks, it might be used to fund a $100 million bonus to the CEO and other managers.

      Not that it really matters. The BEST place for the money is to leave it in my wallet. It was my body that sweated to earn the money; I have a right to keep it.

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    75. Re:Skewed Priorities by xero314 · · Score: 1

      It's clear to the independents that both parties created this problem.

      Good post over all, but lets not let the independents of the hook. We are all responsible for this problem, that is how democracy works, even representative democracy as seen in a federated republic.

      And yes I am registered independent and did not vote for either any of the major parties presidential candidates this time around.

    76. Re:Skewed Priorities by xero314 · · Score: 1

      Where is this money that the government will give to the corporations coming from?

      Same place it has been for as long as I can remember, the pockets of the the tax payers and the backs of the working class. My whole point was not that Tax payers were paying, but that this is a) business as usual, b)corporatism, c) fair pay backs for all the people that voted for, or did not do enough to get others to vote against, the government that put us in this place. Yes we are paying the bill for our own mistakes, all of us.

    77. Re:Skewed Priorities by theaveng · · Score: 1

      >>>>>Democrat Party

      >>Its called the DEMOCRATIC party. I don't know where this "democrat" party meme came from, but I'm sick of it.

      Thomas Jefferson founded the Republican Party in the earl 1790s. The Federalists use the slang term "Democrats" in order to make the rival party sound like an unruly mob. Jefferson decided, rather than be insulted, to incorporate the slang into his party name - Democratic-Republican Party. And now you know the rest of the story.

      --
      FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
    78. Re:Skewed Priorities by xero314 · · Score: 1

      We have a safety net called welfare and food stamps and communal housing. If people choose not to avail themselves of these safety nets, they have no one to blame but themselves. I am willing to pay that expense.

      It's going to be much cheaper to you, and the other tax payers, in the long run if we have a safety net to allow people to retain their current holdings, than if we take those holdings and give them new ones through the current welfare system. Just not seeing what is wrong with a safety net that allows people to retain their homes, keeps our financial system from complete collapse, and keeps the middle class city sections from becoming havens for squatters, causing further economic decline.

      As for buying a Lexus or house, I am Not willing to do that. If you can't afford to keep up, sell both and move into an apartment, as I did when I was young and without money.

      Many people who bought homes in the past 5 years are in a position where they can't actually sell them, even if they were smart and bought homes they could afford at the time and with reasonable loan offerings. So all they can do is default on the loan (there is no difference between defaulting on some or all of your loan). So after defaulting on there home loan they will not be able to rent at an apartment (yes they check your credit). So as noble as your idea seems on paper, it just doesn't work in the midst of an economic crash.

      People like yourself seem to miss the fact that this economic disaster is effecting even people that made sound financial decisions but some how hit bad circumstances that have caused either drastic drops in the value of their collateral or drops in income and even joblessness. Continuing to starve these people of all resources and dignity is not going to help the economic system recover.

      A government that violates human rights by stealing money, property, or labor from its citizens (whether for itself or for wealth redistribution) is a government that is illegitimate.

      I really think you need to learn what the phrase "human rights" means.

    79. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, what? The Democratic Party specifically told Florida and Michigan if they moved their primaries before Super Tuesday, they would not seat their delegates. Florida and Michigan did it anyway, then acted all indignant when the Democratic Party went forward with exactly what they said they were going to do. Don't you believe that there should be consequences for your actions? The only mistake they did was not sticking to their guns, instead coming up with a stupid compromise that was designed from the start to not change the outcome.

    80. Re:Skewed Priorities by regular_gonzalez · · Score: 1

      And for those of us who didn't make mistakes? Those who didn't get into ridiculous amounts of debt, or finance houses they couldn't afford? Fair payback for them as well?

      --
      Due to circumstances beyond my control, I am master of my fate and captain of my soul.
    81. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With you, dude, except it is called "Fascism".

    82. Re:Skewed Priorities by xero314 · · Score: 1

      And for those of us who didn't make mistakes?

      That's a laughable question. Unless you have had no financial responsibility or discretionary spending in the past 20 os so years then you contributed to the economic downturn. And if you are young enough that you didn't contribute the the crisis then you have to pay for the mistakes of your parents, which is just the nature of civilized existence.

      Those who didn't get into ridiculous amounts of debt, or finance houses they couldn't afford?

      You also seem to miss the far reaching effects of the financial crisis. With banks having to take huge losses on defaulted loans they have no capital to loan to other industries. This means no growth and no new entry into the rest of the industries. So as much as you have a job that pays you enough to pay your debts and afford your cost of living now it does not mean it will remain that way if about 10 million homes are foreclosed on. As of right now, with what has been approved, the government will be spending about 1k per home that is being assisted, while foreclosure on those homes would be a capital loss of over 200k per home. I don't know about you but I would much rather have the 1k loss from taxes (which will be a drop in the bucket for each of us) over the 200k loss of capital which would be completely disastrous to the US economy causing even those that made what appeared to be sound financial choices to be struggling for their next meal let alone a roof over their heads.

    83. Re:Skewed Priorities by Darby · · Score: 1

      Construction of cartels. In a truly free market, private collusion (a cartel) is extremely unstable and always short lived because

      There's the problem with your argument right there. You're basing your entire argument on a theoretical abstraction which can not possibly ever exist in reality.

      You do know free markets are like the frictionless planes of high school physics, right? They are a useful abstraction, but they do not exist, they never have existed and they can not under any conceivable set of circumstances *ever* exist.

      In reality private collusion is a constant, Wealth is power, and those with the most wealth will use their power to manipulate the markets driving them ever further away from the theoretical ideal of a free market. Without serious controls on the market, whoever controlled a given market would have you murdered if you provided any legitimate competition. Now, if you do not support the idea of using murder to stifle competition, then congratulations, you've realized that the free market can't exist. Ever.

    84. Re:Skewed Priorities by garett_spencley · · Score: 1

      That's what governments are *supposed* to be for. You know, to be on everyone's side and to always be neutral. You're right, free markets are theoretical. However, the real paradox is that government intervention to "fix" these problems always makes them worse. So what do we do ?

      The only solution that has ever seemed plausible to me is to limit government's power and size in order to limit their ability to interfere with the market. To have lots of checks and balances in the legal system to prevent any group, no matter how powerful, from infiltrating the government for their own advantage. We employ the idea that the government maintains a monopoly on coercive force. Thus when a cartel or small business or an individual initiate force on others for their own gain they face consequences. It's not perfect but I think it would be a lot closer than what we have now.

      You do realize that free market does not mean anarchy right ? That violence is still very much illegal and the government still exists to enforce people's rights. That "protecting" the free market by preventing other people from using coercive force to interfere with it themselves is quite different than interference.

    85. Re:Skewed Priorities by Ashriel · · Score: 1

      There are a couple of reasons that labour can be cheap oversees. 1) They have a free market and people are voluntarily working for low wages. Their costs of living are lower, precisely because the allow labour prices to be set by the market. Thus they are willing and able to work for less, but it doesn't affect their standards of living because everything costs less. They are able to save and invest in new production. The country's prosperity will gradually expand as more and more consumers goods are produced. 2) they are slaves under the control of a dictator who is forcing them to work for very little or nothing. They cannot own their own property (serfdom or whatever) in order to invest in new production. The government strictly controls the economy and all means of production. 3) something in between the two.

      I think #2 and #3 are more common than you think, and that #1 is near-to-completely non-existent. The preferred government type for corporations to work with is fascism, for obvious reasons, and they tend to locate overseas production facilities in states that support their best interests (lockdown of the populace and no civil liberties or right to organize to speak of).

      If the overseas production facilities were located in nations with civil liberties and worker's rights, then I'd be all for it, as this method of outsourcing, while it hurts the American economy, would really help developing nations build a strong economy and infrastructure and education would follow.

      ...The problem here isn't corporations, it's corporate influence on government. Thus the problem is the government. We need to limit the government's ability to interfere with the free market. Not give them more power. The more power government has the more they are able to help their buddies.

      I would argue the problem is twofold: convoluted and self-defeating regulation on the part of the government, and the easy money flowing in from big business. I agree that insulation is necessary, and the quickest solution I see is to eliminate PACs and donation bundling, and start registering lobbyists like sex offenders :)

      That last bit a little over the top? Then just ban lobbying in D.C. altogether. That won't stop them, of course, but at least our elected reps would be free from immediate influence while they're working.

      As for the other aspect:

      Regulations hurt because they are always imposed indiscriminately, and often supported by the big corporations and special interests themselves under the guise of limiting competition.

      ...

      .

      There's the story of US Senator George McGovern. He was always in favour of strict corporate regulation to protect people, much as you are. He supported many regulations in his career as Senator. When he retired from public life he became the proprietor of a small Connecticut hotel called Stratford Inn. Two and a half years later the hotel was forced to close. This is what he had to say:

      "Legislators and government regulators must more carefully consider the economic and management burdens we have been imposing on U.S business. As an innkeeper, I wanted excellent safeguards against a fire. But I was startled to be told that our two-story structure, which had large sliding doors opening from every guest room to all-concrete decks, required us to meet fire regulations more appropriate to the Waldorf-Astoria. A costly automatic sprinkler system and new exit doors were items that helped sink the Stratford Inn - items I was convinced added little to the safety of our guests and employees. And a critical promotional campaign never got off the ground, partly because my manager was forced to concentrate for days at a time on needlessly complicated tax forms for both the IRS and the state of Connecticut. I'm for protecting the health and well-being of both workers and consumers, I'm for a clean environment and economic justice. But I'm convinced we can pursue those

    86. Re:Skewed Priorities by kocsonya · · Score: 1

      "The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power."
      [Roosevelt]

      That guy must have known something...

    87. Re:Skewed Priorities by regular_gonzalez · · Score: 1

      We'll just have to agree to disagree. I have a preference to let the market correct itself rather than to throw good money after bad, which in my opinion will just prolong the crisis and delay the recovery. Better a large pain over a short period than a moderate pain over a huge period.

      --
      Due to circumstances beyond my control, I am master of my fate and captain of my soul.
    88. Re:Skewed Priorities by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Responsible

      That's like my job.

      I'm "responsible" for keeping two major projects which do about 8 billion dollars each in business. The company has cut support funding by 20% a year for the last 4 years. Things are failing all over the place and they want me to fix them... for insanely low amounts of money. It's not like these are not producing huge profits that could be used to pay for ongoing maintenance-- no, it's all being looted for pretty spinny things elsewhere in the company.

      That is literally driving my crazy to some extent- it was a good job until they started doing this crap.

      "We want blah", "okay that's going to cost about $440,000", "that can't be right- we can do it for $20,000", "uh. no you can't", "why???", "well the hardware alone costs $320,000", "why?", "You took away every resource we had so we will have to use contractors- and that's really going to be more than an additional $120,000", "why?", "why????"

      Likewise the democrats and the republicans decided when Reagan was elected that they could have it all-- BOTH guns AND butter. And absolutely ruin the nation doing so.

      There is nothing you or I can do to stop it.

      Hell- we don't even get to vote for real candidates any more-- all of them are preselected for us. Unless the corporations like you, the corporate owned news media will ridicule, mock, dig up, and if need be fabricate reasons why the masses shouldn't vote for you. And enough of them do, that independents and anyone else with a brain can't overcome the weight of idiocy.

      I need a vacation. I need to chill and just let the disaster happen since I can't stop it anyway.

      But it sets me off when some 1/2 brain cell republican says it's all Obama's fault. Like Bush2, Bush1, and Reagan didn't happen. Clinton was actually effective and cut down the deficit. Obama looks like he is going to suck. Was hoping for better from him. There was no way I could vote for Sara Palin's finger on the nuclear trigger-- and that McCain could select someone that unseasoned and naive to be VP / Pres meant i couldn't vote for him (tho he really lost me in 2005 when he gave up his balls and became Bush3 so the powers that be would let him be president).

      bleah.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    89. Re:Skewed Priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not what I'm talking about.

      They didn't bother having the delegates finish voting at their convention, because there was a chance that they might not nominate the media's clear preference.

      Instead, they stopped the delegates' vote and just appointed Obama. Ignoring Florida and Michigan completely, had the delegates been allowed to vote, Hillary could have won the nomination. But they didn't even allow the delegates - the legal delegates, mind you - to vote.

      And while I do believe that there should be consequences for actions, disenfranchising voters should never be an option.

    90. Re:Skewed Priorities by Darby · · Score: 1

      However, the real paradox is that government intervention to "fix" these problems always makes them worse. So what do we do ?

      We realize that your statement that government intervention *always* makes problems worse is every bit as incorrect and purely hypothetical as the statement that free markets exist.

      I gave a perfect example of where government intervention did nothing of the sort, and in fact, is completely necessary for anything even remotely approximating a free market to exist.

      Laws against murder have a very powerful positive force on the markets which cause them to be freer than they would be otherwise.
      There are many other examples. Similarly, there are plenty of examples where a government will act in a way which can be seen as restricting freedom for some people, which nevertheless have the effect of greatly increasing liberty for everyone. Heck, murder laws work there as an example as well.

      Now, none of this is intended to imply that government intervention==good or anything of the sort. I'd even be happy to stipulate that *more often than not* government intervention is bad, and I'd go so far as to say that it is usually on purpose that it's bad, because it's good for somebody and they bought the law, but then I've been called a cynical bastard on more than one occasion.

      You do realize that free market does not mean anarchy right ?

      I realize that a free market does not exist. I further realize that the only people likely to benefit from "free market religion" are those who despise free markets and want *unregulated* markets.

      While free markets neither do nor can exist, it's worthwhile to attempt to approach that more or less as closely as possible. It is, however, also a fact that an unregulated market is far, far away from the hypothetical ideal of a free market. Likewise, an over/poorly regulated market isn't much better and might even be able to end up worse than a completely unregulated market.

      That violence is still very much illegal and the government still exists to enforce people's rights.

      Which is fine, as far as it goes, but it doesn't matter *at all* why murder is illegal. Laws against murder are nevertheless a regulation of the market. That is an unavoidable fact. You can't separate "the market" out of society into its own distinct entity. A completely unregulated market will involve the hiring of people to murder competitors. That's the way of the world. Always has been, always will be and that'll never get close to a free market without regulation. So really, the only thing that even approaches a paradox is the fact that greater regulation ( greater than none, or very little, not greater than we currently have) can *and does* lead to a more free market.

      That "protecting" the free market by preventing other people from using coercive force to interfere with it themselves is quite different than interference.

      You're attempting to divide market regulation into different descriptions (protecting, interfering, etc.), but that isn't generally a valid distinction. One person's protection is another person's interference. What they are in any case is regulation of the market. So, there are certainly good regulations (no murder) and bad regulations ( anybody buying or selling anything must chop off a toe). Then there are the vast majority of regulations which are somewhere in the middle, neither good nor bad in any objective sense.

      So we come down to where the debate should actually be in the public sphere which is "What minimal set of regulations can we put in place which will lead to the closest approximation to a free market?"

      Now, the question I'd suggest you might want to seek an answer for is, "Why isn't this the debate we're having?" ( That's we the America Public/Legislators, not you and I)

      I think that the answer to that question is very simple. Many very powerful interests despise free markets. They want unregulated markets and so they have maliciously worked to convince people that those are the same thing when they're almost as far apart as can be in reality. These are quite often the people you see on the news cheerleading free markets.

  8. Shouldn't this be a Civil matter? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm confused: all the merits of the case are civil in nature. How in hell do they justify prosecuting this man in criminal court? I don't understand: can someone please explain (and prove I'm just dumb)?

    (My logic is that he made no money off his actions, and they were of absolutly no benefit to him.)

    1. Re:Shouldn't this be a Civil matter? by davidbrucehughes · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Exactly. And that is why we have moved out of the US to a more civilized country. We release all of our material--audio, video and written--under a Creative Commons license, and urge both artists and consumers to boycott the mainstream content providers. They are simply trying to maintain a business model that has been obsolete since Napster. Just let them die.

      --
      om namo bhagavate vasudevaya
    2. Re:Shouldn't this be a Civil matter? by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >>>We release all of our material--audio, video and written--under a Creative Commons license

      How much money do you make doing that? Enough to support yourself without resorting to a second job? And how do you deal with those who taken your creations without compensating you for your labor?

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    3. Re:Shouldn't this be a Civil matter? by mishehu · · Score: 1

      I don't see what his income has to do with his choice. Perhaps he's not in it to become the next nysnc.

    4. Re:Shouldn't this be a Civil matter? by Firehed · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What do you mean by "deal with those who have taken your creations without compensating you for your labor"? That's the whole point of releasing under a CC license - if people choose to compensate you, great; if not, they wouldn't have bought your material anyways so suck it up.

      The record industry is just a promotional vehicle anyways - you only make money on concerts after getting famous. Even bigger artists are usually lucky to break even on CD sales. Releasing under CC removes that overhead, though obviously at the expense of losing the industry's promotion skills. Word of mouth is still king.

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    5. Re:Shouldn't this be a Civil matter? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I fail to see what releasing material under CC license has to do with moving out of the US.

    6. Re:Shouldn't this be a Civil matter? by Repossessed · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Pre release of copyrighted works, or release of limited distribution works (like a movie still only in theaters), has always been considered criminal, both in case law and the law as written. The logic is that in these cases the amount of damage is substantially more than more mundane piracy, since it creates a single point of release (he is responsible not just for the people he distributed it to, but every single person who downloads it prior to release).

      --
      Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite (TM)
    7. Re:Shouldn't this be a Civil matter? by future+assassin · · Score: 1

      I'll wait for the GP first answer but even if he/she were working part time and making the rest of their living doing something they love all the more power to them and I wish I was in their shoes. Who cares if they don't make "video" millions from their music.

      --
      by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
    8. Re:Shouldn't this be a Civil matter? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for the clarification. Just to get this correct: He is being criminally prosecuted based on the fact he released the music a priori the record labels release. I'm sorry, but I have to ask for a little more justification (not that your post wasn't comprehensive).

      How does the law justify criminal prosecution for pre-released "pirate material?" I understand that he is considered "a single point of distribution" -- So he was the only source of the material. How is it _not_ arguable to show the temporal nature of said argument? Say, if he waited a few days until after the record labels had released it. In short, I'm not seeing how that argument is solid. (I'm honestly looking to see his criminal prosecution as valid.)

    9. Re:Shouldn't this be a Civil matter? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Regarding the idea to prosecute the file-sharer on a criminal basis: IANAL, but am fairly well-acquainted with our justice system through employment and experience.

      The uploader's actions can be construed as both malicious and damaging, both to the label and to the artist. The record label made extraordinary adjustments to their normal process to accommodate the artist's desire in recording the album. The artist was obviously concerned with controlling the release date of the album.

      The uploader's financial rewards are inconsequential. To the artist, the sole merit of this material was its release *as a finished work*.

      As an analogy, what if a draft of the Declaration of Independence was viewed by a delegate as "complete" and posted back to Britain? In the final document, most of the document would probably remain as-is; some slight revision may occur, and the document would be signed. So where's the harm?

      This is not to equate "Chinese Democracy" with the Declaration of Independence or any other great document. This is to say that both are, and should be treated, as publications. Theft and fraudulent publication of an unfinalized national document could be treasonous; theft and fraudulent publication of an unfinalized recording should be criminal.

      The damage wrought by distribution of a publication before its time is far greater than illicit distribution subsequently. The initial release has apparent credibility just for being first; the document's rightful owner must not expend just to recover lost distribution, but also to ensure proper attribution.

    10. Re:Shouldn't this be a Civil matter? by poopdeville · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Thanks for the clarification. Just to get this correct: He is being criminally prosecuted based on the fact he released the music a priori the record labels release. I'm sorry, but I have to ask for a little more justification (not that your post wasn't comprehensive).

      Hehehheheh.

      Hehahahahahaha

      OH MAN MAKE IT STOP

      A priori! As if that meant "prior to"!

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    11. Re:Shouldn't this be a Civil matter? by gbarules2999 · · Score: 1

      It's about art, not money, idiot.

    12. Re:Shouldn't this be a Civil matter? by davidbrucehughes · · Score: 1

      Actually, we make about as much as I used to make doing IT tech writing consulting. We collect donations and sell courses and consultation services based on our source material. Where we live now, we rent a very nice 6 BR house on 20 hectares (almost 50 acres) of fertile land for about what it would cost to rent a room in a house where I used to live in the SF Bay area.

      The point is, the open-source distribution model does work for other than software. I suppose you could consider that what we provide is software for the human mind, but still. In today's world there is absolutely no need for big greedy corporations to intermediate between artists and consumers. Feed the commons, and it will feed you.

      --
      om namo bhagavate vasudevaya
    13. Re:Shouldn't this be a Civil matter? by Internal+Modem · · Score: 1

      So when I steal everything you own, I assume you will just settle it in civil court? That's good to know...

    14. Re:Shouldn't this be a Civil matter? by davidbrucehughes · · Score: 1

      Just as we do not want a big greedy corporation in between us and our audience, we do not want them between us and our food, our housing, transportation, water etc. So-called third-world countries are mercifully behind the US and Europe in terms of the big corporate ripoff tactics. Since as long as we have a fat pipe we can live and work anywhere, then why not go someplace where you can live like a country gentleman for 1/10 the expense?

      --
      om namo bhagavate vasudevaya
    15. Re:Shouldn't this be a Civil matter? by volpe · · Score: 1

      (My logic is that he made no money off his actions, and they were of absolutly no benefit to him.)

      If some kid slashes my tires and spraypaints graffiti on my house, he makes no money off his actions, and they are of absolutely no benefit to him. So, do we arrest him? Or do I have to file a lawsuit?

    16. Re:Shouldn't this be a Civil matter? by gavron · · Score: 1

      If some kid slashes my tires and spraypaints graffiti on my house, he makes no money off his actions, and they are of absolutely no benefit to him.

      It wasn't a kid. It was your neighbors tired of you reducing all discussions to insipid analogies.

      So, do we arrest him?

      Is that a mouse in your pocket?

      Or do I have to file a lawsuit?

      HAVE TO FILE a lawsuit? EITHER "we" *LOL* arrest him OR HAVE TO FILE a lawsuit.

      Such tough choices, those being the only two.

      Darl, is that you?

      E

    17. Re:Shouldn't this be a Civil matter? by PhotoGuy · · Score: 1

      Is this you?

      "In 1988, during prolonged deep meditation in a Himalayan cave, David received a mystical transmission of the Esoteric Teaching, the confidential meta-knowledge behind all genuine spiritual paths. This revelation, recounted in his book Search for the Absolute Truth, completed his education in the transcendental mysteries of spiritual life, opening to him the secret pathway to complete self-realization."

      Good to know you put that under creative commons, rather than DRM'ing it :)

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    18. Re:Shouldn't this be a Civil matter? by PhotoGuy · · Score: 1

      Although I should add, it sure sounds like the Gods used an encrypted, secure channel for that transmission, rather than broadcasting it to the world...

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    19. Re:Shouldn't this be a Civil matter? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps he is an artist that actually likes doing his art regadless of whether he makes money.

      Remember that a lot of the best artists never earned much at all from thier art. their work became valuable after they died.

    20. Re:Shouldn't this be a Civil matter? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The logic is that in these cases the amount of damage is substantially more than more mundane piracy, since it creates a single point of release (he is responsible not just for the people he distributed it to, but every single person who downloads it prior to release).

      Yeah, and please ignore the fact that the album, when released, made the charts quite well, regardless.

  9. Re:fp by Kokuyo · · Score: 3, Informative

    And you think the first is, or ever has been, a healthy kind of relationship between a citizen and their country?

  10. ANY album by p51d007 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That took 17 years to release, millions to produce, especially something that a nut case like Axel Rose, can't be worth a plug nickel.

  11. years by bigdavex · · Score: 5, Funny


    The album, which cost millions and took 17 years to complete, . . .

    That 17 years can be broken down as follows for Axl:

    16 years, 10 months: lying around drugged out of his mind
    2 months: working on music

    --
    -Dave
    1. Re:years by Vectronic · · Score: 1

      Sex, Drugs, and Rock 'n' Roll... Baby!

      All the best music is made when the artists are one high away from suicide... as long as you ignore the 90% that suck shit when high.

      No time for commenting, I got an album to download!

    2. Re:years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the really amazing feat is that those 2 months are spread fairly evenly across the remaining 16 years 10 months.

  12. If you don't like it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    then organize a nation-wide boycott of music sales.

    Whiners.

    Mind you, I think the police are becoming an occupying force in this country, an arm of the Dept. of Commerce. But Slashdot makes nothing happen, so log the hell out and go organize.

    1. Re:If you don't like it by uxbn_kuribo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You can't boycott music sales. If you do, and the entire industry takes a financial hit, then they'll just claim piracy is on the upswing and causing them to take a financial hit. Kinda like how piracy is totally to blame for the entertainment industry's problems now, and not the fact that it keeps cranking out the same tired crap, or the fact that the economy is tanking and taking peoples' entertainment budget into the toilet with it.

      --
      No portion of this post may be rebroadcast without the express, written consent of Major League Baseball.
    2. Re:If you don't like it by Niris · · Score: 1

      Don't forget your Guy Fawks masks *rolls eyes*

    3. Re:If you don't like it by gavron · · Score: 1

      Don't forget your Guy Fawks masks *rolls eyes*

      Don't forget to look up "Guy Fawkes" next time you feel like not being ignorant about history, or just getting your learnin' from movies, Evie.

      E

    4. Re:If you don't like it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too lazy to log in, but anywho: look up the raids raids and boycotts from 4chan on scientology before you start calling people ignorant about history. it was a reference to a modern event, not the english strikes against the church of england. thanks for playing though

  13. What is the use of prison time? by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

    What is the point of prison time in the first place? Isn't it to keep dangerous criminals off the street so they don't hurt people? So what dangerous crime did this person do? Nothing. So why should my tax dollars be wasted protecting me from, in essence, nothing? Sure, if he shot a guy, lock him up, I have no problems with that because he could shoot again and injure or kill me, this guy though, my tax dollars protect me from a guy who uploaded a few songs. Wow, such a violent crime!

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    1. Re:What is the use of prison time? by fooslacker · · Score: 1

      He angered the Corpocracy. You can't do that here. DUI sure, we'll slap you on the wrist that can only kill individuals but non-violent drug offense, or IP theft woah...that can harm profits and profits are more important than people in the Peoples Corpocracy of America.

      I'm a libertarian at heart and pretty pro-business (small at least) on the whole but the government is not here to prop up dying business models and the fact that a country founded on liberty, individualism, self-reliance, and opportunity has become a corrupt system for protecting special interests be they either unions, or political agendas or in this case the corporations saddens me greatly.

      Should this guy be fined? Absolutely, he stole something that was not his and gave it to others but our government has become as corrupt as any other in the world they're just smart enough to hide their corruption behind a civilized veneer and not fill mass graves with genocide victims so that the special interests of politicians and corporate entities can roll on.

      The saddest thing of all to me is that there is no one to stand against this and both parties are part of the ever moving profit and power machine. They serve various individual special agendas rather than a core belief system or philosophy that they measure issues and ideas against. We are a nation without leaders and a people without direction and though probably inevitable it is a sad state for a place founded on the ideals of freedom, individualism and opportunity to have come to this.

      Ok, self righteous rant over..cue the patriotic music.

    2. Re:What is the use of prison time? by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      There's the name for a corporacracy...

      It was called Fascism by Mussolini.

      --
    3. Re:What is the use of prison time? by fooslacker · · Score: 1

      Fascism is certainly the result and it grows ever more likely as the number of corporations approaches one. We're not there yet but anytime a small group governs a large populous without a guiding rule of law and framework of ideals oppression of one form or another soon follows be it fascism, communism, apartheid, or some other -ism. More often than not it is cloaked in the "good of the many" or "for security and safety" argument. This is why collectivism and the surrendering of individual rights in any form is dangerous in the end.

    4. Re:What is the use of prison time? by DustyShadow · · Score: 1

      Prison time is generally viewed (at least by economists) as a deterrent. It helps deter others from committing the same crimes. Same deal with capital punishment.

    5. Re:What is the use of prison time? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Incarceration has several purposes besides keeping people where they won't hurt others (though that goal is itself poorly fulfilled, that's another matter.), such as deterrence in advance as people generally wish to avoid prison. And there's also rehabilitation, giving people options besides the criminal life, usually through education.

  14. I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by commodore64_love · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Like J.Michael Straczynski said:

    First, having talked to distributors, I can tell you straight up that
    if a show [or music album] has had too much online exposure and too many downloads, if it's too much out there, they won't distribute it because the market that would want to see it already has. Second, when you download a show, it's not just that you're denying the producers/distributors of that movie or TV show the "price" of the DVD... you're also having a direct impact on the creative people who made that show, and taking from them as well. Actors, writers and directors get paid a fee to make a project, and then they get residuals, which are not a bonus, they are deferred compensation.

    Free downloading ultimately destroys the financial structure for artists of all kinds, and will, if left unchecked, eventually make it impossible for any artist to make a living doing what they do. Downloaders think there's no difference between data and entertainment, that everything should be free. Great, it's free to YOU. Now, how do you propose paying the people who need to put food on the plate when they are getting nothing in return?

    jms [/quote] From: "jmsatb5@aol.com"
    Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
    Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 14:36:27 -0700 (PDT)

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    1. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where does JoCo fit in this?

    2. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Or there's this quote:

      "The DVDs grossed roughly half a BILLION
      dollars (and that was just after they put out S5, without all of the S5
      sales in).

      So what does my last profit statement say? We're $80 million in the
      red.

      Basically, by the terms of my contract, if a set on a WB movie burns
      down in Botswana, they can charge it against B5's profits."

      Is it really pirates who are harming actors, writers and directors, or is it the studios?

    3. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Pot kettle black.

      One entity of leeches is video pirates. They have no lawyers, and can't hire JMS, and have a short memory.

      2nd entity of leeches is the MPAA members. They have lawyers, might hire JMS in the future, and have long memories.

      JMS has commented on the games Hollywood plays with DVD sales--how they avoid turning a profit--to avoid paying creative royalties.

      One of the two entities mentioned has little power, so he blasts them.

      Some future model of low-cost video downloads might eliminate the MPAA middlemen and cut way down on piracy. When that happens the creative types stand to earn far more than they do today.

      It seems to be happening (albeit slowly) with music.

    4. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I lost some respect for JMS when he wrote that. The thread was in connection with some scripts that he had written for Crusade episodes, which had not been produced. He was complaining about people distributing them online, even though the only studio that had the rights to produce them, wouldn't. His email basically said to me 'I have no more creative output to contribute. Don't advertise my talents as a writer and demand more shows written by me, because I can't create anything new anymore.'

      Babylon 5 was created by someone with a story to tell, who was willing to work hard and struggle to tell that story. Crusade was created by someone who wanted to make money from a franchise. That the two were the same person is a tragedy.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Free downloading ultimately destroys the financial structure for artists of all kinds, and will, if left unchecked, eventually make it impossible for any artist to make a living doing what they do.

      No downloading destroys the current middle man business model which would destroy the current version of a studio and the current distribution channels but there are plenty of ways to make money off of free content distribution. Hell, network TV has been doing it for 50 years or more. I'm not pro IP theft, I'm not a "data wants to be free" guy but I hate this kind of dishonest assessment of facts.

    6. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now, how do you propose paying the people who need to put food on the plate when they are getting nothing in return?

      I don't know, get a real job?

    7. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      So he chooses to ignore the DVD sets he's sold of his very cheap to make B5 show, that would not have been sales had a younger generation not been able to download a few episodes. People are no longer dumb enough to blindly purchase DVDs or albums. The novelty days went a decade ago. We won't buy products by name any more. You're audience is far wiser than when JMS pissed around on a few Amigas making B5.

    8. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by meist3r · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Apparently this guy doesn't get what the problem is. Much of the illegal downloading be it music or TV shows occurrs because there are too many hurdles for consumers to jump in order to legally purchase the content. I'm from Europe, I have NOT ONE valid method of buying episode based TV subscriptions (iTunes is out of the question on Linux systems, even if it ran I would refuse to use it). There is no way for me to get movies in their original language or music to the date it is released or in fromats that are useful to me.

      I will have to keep contributing to that problem if the people that want my money to put food on their tables don't start working out ways to give me a chance to pay them. Simple enough I'm not buying a DVD box for most shows since I watch the episodes once. Then what? I have useless discs sitting around that I wasted money on. No thank you. There are little to no English cinemas where I live and I won't wait to see movies until they release DVDs (the basic purpose of movie going nowadays is to talk about it to people that have also just seen them, a 6+ delay is not very helpful).

      When it comes to profit the makers, producers and rights holders seem to fully understand how to exploit outsourced production, cheap prop making and other effects of globalization. But then, when it comes to treat the market as it is, an interconnected global real-time market ... they chose to segment the market into individual regional chunks that they can exploit more thoroughly. Either global OR local ... cherry picking from both will lead to people like me. I buy tons of stuff, just not from those assholes that don't take my market segment seriously.

    9. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by avilliers · · Score: 1

      If that's what his e-mail said, it's because you aren't reading that well, presumably because it goes against your preconceived notions.

      JMS is a TV guy. The "story" for him includes actors, visual effects, scenes, sound--it's a performance. Maybe you view it as narrative, but it was always clear from his posts that he did not. It's challenging enough to pull this off in the best of circumstances (as season 5 showed), of course he's going to be unhappy when people seal off certain options completely, and limit future ones. (Plenty of writers, including apparently JMS, recycle unrealized ideas in future projects).

      That you don't value JMS's future creative ambitions all that much isn't surprising--what's his private hopes to you? Honestly, I don't care much either--I wouldn't give great odds he'll ever produce another series I want to see, so trading *his* chance for an hour or two of *my* diversions is a fair trade. As always, when you can impose the costs on someone else.

      But it doesn't mean he's a 'sellout' or lacks creativity because he's determined to keep trying.

    10. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by Coppit · · Score: 1

      Does anyone know what Mozart did to make ends meet when his works were copied at will?

      "eventually make it impossible for any artist to make a living doing what they do" -- using the current model. He apparently doesn't have the imagination or even creativity to think of other models.

    11. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by Internal+Modem · · Score: 1

      This is a site for nerds and losers. Your point will elude them. Post about pr0n and overlords in the future.

    12. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by Internal+Modem · · Score: 1

      Both. Next question?

    13. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by Internal+Modem · · Score: 1

      Apparently this guy doesn't get what the problem is. Much of the illegal downloading be it music or TV shows occurrs because there are too many hurdles for consumers to jump in order to legally purchase the content.

      Bullshit. We do it because we can. Learn to spell.

    14. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by syousef · · Score: 1

      I lost some respect for JMS when he wrote that

      I lost ALL respect for the man when he wrote that. I loved Babylon 5. (Didn't think as much of Crusade). B5 is the only thing I have on VHS and DVD. Legit copies from major retailers but I did wait until they were on special. I still enjoy them but I don't think of him with quite the same fondness and awe. His rant was a lot like finding out one of your childhood heroes is a douche bag that beats up his hookers while he's snorting his hash. Never mind, I was past the age of having any true idols anyway.

      As for B5 vs Crusade, it showed. Though I own it on DVD, I've only ever watched Crusade once and wouldn't consider watching it again. B5 I'll watch over and over. It wasn't all JMS either. The cast was brilliant, and he had some good writers on B5. I don't know what the creative process was on Crusade, but I do know that I don't care.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    15. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like J.Michael Straczynski said:

      Free downloading ultimately destroys the financial structure for artists of all kinds, and will, if left unchecked, eventually make it impossible for any artist to make a living doing what they do. Downloaders think there's no difference between data and entertainment, that everything should be free. Great, it's free to YOU. Now, how do you propose paying the people who need to put food on the plate when they are getting nothing in return?

      jms [/quote] From: "jmsatb5@aol.com"
      Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
      Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 14:36:27 -0700 (PDT)

      Not quite. For rock/rap/blues style musicians, a concert is mostly a social event. You go to be with your friends. You want music? Stay home with earphones.

    16. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by Freultwah · · Score: 1

      So you lost all respect for him because of those who are not you, ie those who download Babylon 5 instead of, well, paying for the DVDs? Or you no longer respect him because he does not like his -- and others' -- work being leeched (by people who are not you) and is vocal about it? I am quite at loss here. Torrenting a show can be considered a compliment to the author, but the novelty can wear off after a while. I wonder what the download:purchase ratio for the Futurama films might be. It's mostly over 2:1 seeders to leechers at any given tracker.

    17. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by dbIII · · Score: 1

      This is a very funny. A man from the land where "lose" is spelt "loose" telling somebody that appears to have English as a second language to learn to spell. To reply I can only suggest to learn to read and get over the nitpicking - you'll read far worse in a newspaper. I always thought one reason Shakespear was compulsory reading in school was to get people over the "I can spell better than you" obsession. Communication is the important thing, not an extra "r" in a word which is not going to slow down any reader.

    18. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm of two minds on this. I like anime, from Japan, but I can't understand Japanese. Is it ok for me to get fansubs of things not released over here? If not, I *could* learn Japanese and set up an arrangement with a Japanese citizen to buy things locally and ship them to me. I could both buy the Japanese copy AND download the fansub, neither depriving the studios of profit, or myself of understanding. (And possibly getting an easier to stomach translation, ala FF:Unlimited)

      In a global economy, there are (semi-)legitimate always ways of getting access to a particular work, if you're really interested in it. E-Bay being a biggy. Oddly, I couldn't find Dilbert DVDs in America until long after they were released in England. I got the region 2 / PAL versions and a DVD player that could handle them. The territory lockout in no way detects territory, you can buy an out-of-country DVD player online as easily as anyone who lives in that country.

      That said, the fact that there's no default, "for everyone else" method of buying the episodes is sloppy on the parts of the content owners. But I wouldn't consider "because this won't run on Linux, they aren't doing enough" to be a valid reason to download. Lots of things aren't on Betamax or HD-DVD either. Just because someone chose VHS or Blu-Ray doesn't give an excuse to not pay. Cheap PCs are available. Get a PoS from eMachines and toss on just enough to work with iTunes or whatever else. iTunes isn't the devil. It may be stupid and obnoxious in parts, but it is a legitimate distribution channel, and popularly accepted as such.

      You can't expect media companies to do everything for you. What if your town doesn't have the one store that carries something, should they have to deal with local stores, or EVERY chain to not have people pirate for them not reaching out enough? There's no obligation for them to make everything work with everything, do they need to support BeOS and OSX for the last few hangers-on? Yes, Linux is great, I have 2 Linux and 1 MS box. It's not as mainstream. I like RC Cola, but I'm not complaining that many a gas station doesn't carry it, despite racks of Coke and Pepsi.

      Now if someone buys a series and REFUSES to air / produce it AT ALL in order to block it, you may have an argument. Is copyright for protecting the ability to profit from something, or control for its own sake. Clearly the former, although the ??AAs tend to push the latter. So, as long as Saban tries to keep Samurai Pizza Cats buried, go ahead and download. When they give in and make DVDs, buy them.

      As for as not delivering to your country, each country is different. Some have silly laws. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles needed censoring in England because you can't mention ninjas. (Proof that random censoring does nothing to protect and tends to make those imposing it look silly.) Each country someone decides to produce a video for is a new investment in meeting the laws of that country. Remember Blizzard and having to remove skeletons from the Chinese version of WOW? Anything going to half a dozen countries in Europe has to be screened for "hate speech" on things that wouldn't raise an eyebrow in America.

      There may be a legitimate reason something wasn't released in your country. They may have figured it wasn't likely enough to be a sufficient return on investment to do the screening to determine what MIGHT need to be changed. No production for your country will happen until the movie has been screened and a legal team signs off on it.

      That said, while the **AAs will tell you buying from elsewhere is illegal, given that the region system is clearly an anti-competition tool, preventing stores from different countries from competing on selling you the same item, the region system seems clearly illegal under any sensible anti-trust law. As for right of absolutely controlling content, (already questionable), there's question of what control is left after the 1st sale to Wal-Mart. After a retailer in the US has bought it, un

    19. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by syousef · · Score: 1

      I lost all respect for him because his work is never going to be released by the networks and he'd rather see it waste away in a vault than in the hands of fans. He's clearly more interested in his own personal gain than the art he's created or the fans who've elevated his show to cult status. He feels that since he created it he's got the right to bury it as well, even after it has been leaked. He was not speaking about work that was being sold but that people to download instead. He was talking about leaked work that will never be made into a show.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    20. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by gknoy · · Score: 1

      Writers recycle failed ideas in a new light on occasion. I can understand him wanting to keep that private so that he can use it on future stuff. Who knows, 5 years from now he may come up with something quite good. (I know, suspend your skepticism. It /could/ happen.) Imagine if Joss Whedon's notebooks or failed pre-Firefly stuff were all publically known (and I don't mean just Buffy and his other series).

    21. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by syousef · · Score: 1

      Writers recycle failed ideas in a new light on occasion. I can understand him wanting to keep that private so that he can use it on future stuff. Who knows, 5 years from now he may come up with something quite good. (I know, suspend your skepticism. It /could/ happen.) Imagine if Joss Whedon's notebooks or failed pre-Firefly stuff were all publically known (and I don't mean just Buffy and his other series).

      Sorry. I don't buy that. He can always come up with new ideas. Crusade was lame compared to the original B5 series. The reason these scripts didn't make the cut is probably quite simply because they were sub par. My understanding is that he did release them in some limited way, they were leaked...and he attacked his own fans over wanting to continue to follow the characters and plots he wrote and which they fell in love with.

      Is it his right to keep them to himself? Perhaps. It really does depend on how he released them which is detail I don't care to find out more about. Does a man with lots of food surrounded by starving people have a right to withhold his food because he owns it? Perhaps, but he's still an asshole if he does it. That is of course a much more extreme example. JMS' fans won't literally starve to death if he doesn't hand over his scripts, but to go on a rant against them is childish and makes him an asshole, despite his earlier good work. Men like that don't deserve to have fans of their work at all.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    22. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by meist3r · · Score: 1

      I can see some of your points but my argument is this: There IS an alternative that works on all platforms, that has no regional lock-in and is readily available right now. I'm talking about Xvid container video files. Matroska if you need to have lots of subtitles and such. None of these methods is currently exploited by the media companies. But I can get them from hundreds of illegal sites everywhere. So why doesn't the media company seize this means of distribution and make it their own? I'd love to pay for well encoded Xvid videos that get streamed or seeded through big companies. But they don't because they can't put their DRM greed measures on it. They don't want to do it.

      One thing I have to strongly disagree with you: Yes they have to kiss my ass. I am the customer. That is what business is all about. If you're being an exclusionary dick you'll end up like the music industry. They stopped kissing ass a long time ago and started treating their customers like criminals and thieves. Thus the customers didn't understand why they should have to pay for such insolence and got their music any other way imaginable. If you don't suck up to you customers ... they'll leave. That's the number 1 rule of business. And in this day and age the media companies aren't exactly in a situation where they can make bold demands because there are no alternatives.

      Also, like I said, most stuff I watch I watch exactly once and never again after that. I don't know about your anime but I wouldn't spend 40 bucks plus shipping on something that I will never touch again if I can get a digital download copy of it and delete it right after I'm done with it. Makes no sense to me to buy useless plastic discs that are way overpriced for what I want to do with them.

      Other than that, no iTunes isn't the devil. But I refuse to accept Apple's terms of service (that's why I never owned anything that Apple made, not even Quicktime Pro). But originally this is not about Apple, there is just no reason whatsoever for me to install a branded locked-down proprietary piece of software just to watch something. There are tons of ways to do it without that and as long as I have the choice I'm not taking this. To me that "one company, one solution" is a terrible concept.

    23. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by Internal+Modem · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. That wasn't my point. Learn to think.

    24. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>Is it really pirates who are harming actors, writers and directors, or is it the studios?

      Since the real world is not black and white, the answer to your question is "Both." It's pirates AND studios who harm the artists via decreasing their earned income.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    25. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>The thread was in connection with some scripts that he had written for Crusade

      Wrong, wrong, and wrong.

      >>>I lost some respect for JMS when he wrote that....Crusade was created by someone who wanted to make money from a franchise.

      Yeah and I lost some respect for YOU because you made up a FALSE story in order to slander/libel a decent human being named Joe. Fuck you. The original thread had NOTHING to do with Crusade stupid shithead. It was about the Forbidden Planet Script that WB had to scrap because assholes decided to STEAL the script and distribute it across the internet, thereby ruining the ability to produce and market the movie. WB had to throw the script in the trash and start over. (Go ahead; pat yourself on the back; good job.) Here's the whole thread so you can see for yourself and also to set the record straight.

      Post #1
      Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
      Subject: ATTN JMS - Forbidden Planet canceled & rewritten?
      From: Poster A
      Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 04:35:03 -0800 (PST)

      jms wrote:
      > because so much of the Forbidden Planet screenplay
      > was leaked out, Warners and I have decided to chuck
      > the screenplay in its entirety and start over.

      First off, that's disappointing. Very disappointing. I speak-out vocally about the damage caused by pirating television shows, but typically that just leads to my banning from the forum. They don't want to hear it. If you have no intent of buying some trashy show, no big deal, but if you enjoy the show (like Babylon 5 or Stargate) then you should go BUY it and support the actors, writers, and other workers behind the scene. To download a television show, burn it to DVD, and stick it on your shelf is stealing, pure and simple.

      Post #2
      From: Poster B
      Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 08:26:38 +0000 (UTC)

      I download a television show, watch it, toss the file away and buy the DVD afterwards, when available. Does that make me a 'thief'? I know it's not 'proper', but I don't feel like I'm stealing it. Another example: I like anime and most anime is fansubbed by guys all over the world. I download them the day they are available, watch them and toss them away. If it's a good show I'll buy it (when licensed), but some shows don't get licensed at all and will never be available to me except if I learn Japanese. Does that make me a 'thief'? They don't lose a sale but they might gain one if some US based company (finally) licenses it.

      Post #3
      From: "jmsatb5@aol.com"
      Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 14:36:27 -0700 (PDT)

      You're missing the point. Several, actually. First, having talked to distributors, I can tell you straight up that
      if a show has had too much online exposure and too many downloads, if it's too much out there, they won't distribute it because the market that would want to see it already has. So you're helping to destroy any chance of a show getting picked up.

      [snip] [See the previous posting]

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    26. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>It wasn't all JMS either. The cast was brilliant, and he had some good writers on B5.

      I find this sentence funny. Why? Because from episode 216 to episode 522, JMS wrote every single episode except two. Not "writers" just one writer.

      As for Crusade, it would have been great if TNT had not rewritten half the episodes (the first six) against JMS wishes. The show was going to evolve into another Shadow-oriented story, strung over five years, just like Babylon 5 was. Unfortunately the show ended just prior to the major "arc" stories and season 1 cliffhanger.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    27. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>his work is never going to be released by the networks

      As with your previous comment about Bablyon 5 "writers" (when in fact it was almost-all just one writer), this comment is also erroneous. JMS' work has been released on VHS, DVD, and in book form. You kinda remind me of that Ford Thaxton fellow who offers opinion as facts - but the "facts" are completely wrong.

      As for the Crusade scripts, JMS didn't want them to be available online because he wanted to sell them for his own income (just released last year). I see nothing wrong with that desire. Even JMS wants to put food on his table rather than starve.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    28. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      P.S. Sorry for the course language. I was angry at Raven64 and his blatant insults against a decent human being and his "entitlement generation" attitude. Still am. Of course as Mr. Straczynski observed about people like Raven:

      Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
      Subject: ATTN JMS: File Sharing
      From: jmsatb5@aol.com (Jms at B5)
      Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 17:03:17 +0000 (UTC) .....it seems to me an odd statement to say, "Boy, I really love this show, the writing, the acting, the directing, so much that I'm going to steal from the people who made it and hurt their income and possibly destroy their ability to tell more such stories in future, THAT'S how much of a fan I am."

      The problem is that people don't like to be corrected, don't like to be told that they're doing something wrong. They are defensive, and arrogant, and pushy, and they feel that the world should give them anything they want because they want it, period, and if anybody else has a problem with that, it's THEIR problem.

      The technical term for these people is deadbeats. The kind of guys who come to stay at your house for a weekend, end up staying for a month, eating your food without paying for it, using your car without sharing gas costs, and get pissed off when you ask that they share the burden.

      Me, I don't associate with guys like that.

      Your mileage may vary.

      jms

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    29. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>there are too many hurdles for consumers to jump in order to legally purchase the content.

      Yeah because it's really difficult for me to walk into a store and buy Battlestar Galactica Season 4 on DVD. Whew. That's rough. Yeah sure I might have to wait until September, but so what? I'll survive that small waiting period; learning patience is good for the soul.

      I don't buy the "it's difficult to get" argument. Nowadays getting your television show is extremely easy; not like the pre-DVD days when, if you missed the 10 o'clock showing, you were simply out of luck. I missed a Star Trek TNG episode in 1994 and never saw it again until 2000 in reruns!!! :-o Yep, today is ridiculously easy.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    30. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      Actually you DO see monopolies all the time in the US. The only thing is, you don't realize that they're monopolies.

      The vast majority of people do realize that they are monopolies. The problem is that the government, since 1981, has been enslaved by its corporate overlords.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    31. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      P.S.

      >>>I'm not buying a DVD box for most shows since I watch the episodes once. Then what? I have useless discs sitting around that I wasted money on.

      Bullshit. You can do what I do. Watch the episodes, enjoy them, and then sell the DVD Season Set to someone else as a "like new" item. When I do that, I typically break-even and sometimes even make a little profit. (Bought Love Hina for $20 and sold it for $40.)

      Again I'm not buying the "I can't get what I want" argument. You CAN buy it on DVD; you just admitted that. You simply choose not to because you're a spoiled child trapped in an adult body. "I want it my way!!!" and you don't want to hear the word "no". Like my kid.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    32. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by syousef · · Score: 1

      As with your previous comment about Bablyon 5 "writers" (when in fact it was almost-all just one writer), this comment is also erroneous

      Please stop talking out of your ass. He wrote season 1 on his own. He wrote the overall plot arc, and he consulted with the writers. He did not write the whole series single handed.

      If you don't believe me, take a look at the lurkers guide, amongst other sources:
      http://www.ntua.gr/lurk/making/creators.html
      "Harlan Ellison is the conceptual consultant for the series. He has written a "manifesto" for the show that explains to other writers how to write science fiction for television and Babylon 5 in particular."

      "Well-known science fiction writers, including Ellison, David Gerrold, Peter David, and D.C. Fontana, are contributing scripts to the show."

      . JMS' work has been released on VHS, DVD, and in book form.

      Yes it has. So what? How is that even relevant?

      You kinda remind me of that Ford Thaxton fellow who offers opinion as facts - but the "facts" are completely wrong.

      Amazing. You spout nonsense that you don't back up, then accuse me of being incorrect. If you're going to do that get your own fucking facts straight. People like you give me the shits.

      As for the Crusade scripts, JMS didn't want them to be available online because he wanted to sell them for his own income (just released last year). I see nothing wrong with that desire. Even JMS wants to put food on his table rather than starve.

      Yeah look you're an asshole to boot for implying that I want the creative staff of my favourite show to starve. What kind of asshole would want that? Peddle your strawmen elsewhere. I haven't pirated his work. I have no intention of doing so, but when a writer would rather his work were buried in case he might one day sell it instead of having it come out, and when a writer releases something, renegs, then goes off on a tirade at his fans I think that writer has, if you'll pardon the pun, lost the plot.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    33. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Wow, you have some serious anger issues. I strongly suggest that you seek therapy. You should also look up argumentum ad hominem.

      First, I apologise for reading the original out of context. Since the original poster (that would be you, by the way) didn't bother to link to the original, I took assumed it was the same post I had read by JMS on the subject of the three unmade Crusade scripts that developed the story arc with the apocalypse box; one well-cited by any discussion of these scripts.

      As to your 'sense of entitlement' notion, I have bought all five seasons of Babylon 5 on DVD as well as the TV movies and rented (i.e. paid to watch on DVD) all of Crusade. In total, I have paid a significant amount to be able to watch B5, because I thought the show was worth it. If all of the fans of JMS' work had paid as much as I have then he would have had no problems financing any of his ideas, so I take exception your 'deadbeat' and 'entitlement generation' comments. Possibly you are projecting a little bit there.

      So, do I feel entitled to something? No. Do I feel that it would have been a friendly gesture for the creator of the show to distribute the scripts for the unmade episodes? Yes. The only company with the rights to make them had turned them down, and JMS had decided not to pursue releasing them in book form. To my mind - and speaking as a writer - copyright should not protect works like this. Copyright is a contract between society and the creator, granting exclusive distribution rights, in exchange for distribution. If the creator does not wish to distribute, then they should not have the protection of copyright law.

      That said, I did not download the scripts, out of deference to JMS' wishes, in spite of the fact that I would like to know what he had planned for the developing arc. I hope some day he will be able to finish this story in some form, but now I know that he would rather hoard material that is unlikely to be published than release it to his fans, I will probably only rent it, rather than buying it. I value an artist who puts his art above his income far more than one whose priorities are the other way around, and am willing to vote with my wallet to support this, which is why I have paid for Creative Commons licensed music and books in the past.

      By the way, I also own a copy of the original Forbidden Planet on DVD. A remake sounds to me like a cynical attempt at squeezing money from a classic. The original is a superb film and, although not quite as timeless as The Tempest (from which it took its basic plot), is still very enjoyable today. If Warner Brothers decided not to go ahead because a few idiots had got illegal copies of the script, then I think they would be a better target for your anger. No one is going to avoid seeing a remake of a film based on a 400-year-old play because they know how it ends.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    34. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by syousef · · Score: 1

      I find this sentence funny. Why? Because from episode 216 to episode 522, JMS wrote every single episode except two. Not "writers" just one writer.

      So let's ignore the work on the first couple of seasons, and focus on the fact that he wrote lots of excellent episodes. Does that give him the right to lock up work he's already released, call fans thieves because they distribute it when he can offer no legitimate way to do so, or otherwise behave like an ass?

      As for Crusade, it would have been great if TNT had not rewritten half the episodes (the first six) against JMS wishes. The show was going to evolve into another Shadow-oriented story, strung over five years, just like Babylon 5 was. Unfortunately the show ended just prior to the major "arc" stories and season 1 cliffhanger.

      Should've, could've, would've but didn't. What matters is the end product. As it was, Crusade was unmemorable. JMS chose to sell the right to the episodes and allowed others to change them as they saw fit. Perhaps his choices were very limited, but regardless you can't possibly believe that because Crusade could or should have been better, that we can't judge JMS on his work. I suppose if the fans got their hands on the original versions of those episodes, he'd have called them thieves for that too.

      I find hero worship distasteful. JMS did some excellent work on B5, just as Lucas did some excellent work on the original SW trilogy. Doesn't mean that gives these guys the right to behave like assholes or produce crap while we all bow to their glory, or make excuses for their shortcomings.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    35. Re:I't just like that Babylon 5 guy said by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the studio says that there is no profit, what do you suppose his percentage share would amount to? 20/30/40/50 percent of nothing is always nothing.

      If he never sees a penny of the profits no matter how many DVDs are sold, piracy cannot decrease his earned income of nothing unless pirates mug him on the street.

  15. Poetic justice by Underholdning · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The title of the album says it all. Only - I always thought they were criticizing the Chinese Democracy.

    1. Re:Poetic justice by NorQue · · Score: 1

      Not only that, I was mislead into believing the name was actually a clever pun... like, the album gets released when China turns into a democracy (=never).

  16. Re:fp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, I guess countries who have the first kind of citizen die... eventually.

  17. It Is a Criminal Issue You Fool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    He pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor, which is violation of CRIMINAL law. It's not a civil issue here, no matter how much you wish it was. There are criminal statutes for copyright infringement, and they have been on the books for some time.

    In short, it is you and many other slashbots here who do not "understand what is really going on here." Stop with this nonsense, please.

    1. Re:It Is a Criminal Issue You Fool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I smell hypocrisy.

    2. Re:It Is a Criminal Issue You Fool by larpon · · Score: 1

      Chinese hypocrisy! Keep it in context pal! :)

    3. Re:It Is a Criminal Issue You Fool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's still a f'in waste to put him in jail. of course, that's the case with a lot of people incarcerated.

    4. Re:It Is a Criminal Issue You Fool by Kell+Bengal · · Score: 1

      Tut tut. Copyright violators are dangerous criminals who might, at any moment, delete your kittens. Prison is the only safe place for them.

      --
      Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
      altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
    5. Re:It Is a Criminal Issue You Fool by Khyber · · Score: 1

      For a MISDEMEANOR you get FUCKING JAIL, NOT FUCKING PRISON, ASSHOLES.

      I guess only those that have actually been through the system would know that, though.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    6. Re:It Is a Criminal Issue You Fool by russotto · · Score: 1

      For a MISDEMEANOR you get FUCKING JAIL, NOT FUCKING PRISON, ASSHOLES.

      There are no Federal jails; the Federal system is unified under the Bureau of Prisons.

    7. Re:It Is a Criminal Issue You Fool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FUCKING JAIL, NOT FUCKING PRISON, ASSHOLES

      I am surprised that someone as even-keeled as yourself has been arrested!

      Go to anger management classes. You fucking lunatic.

    8. Re:It Is a Criminal Issue You Fool by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Ha! I have reason to be angry, but you're too much of a moron to understand why.

      Go get a clue, you fucking moron.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    9. Re:It Is a Criminal Issue You Fool by Fluffeh · · Score: 1

      For a MISDEMEANOR you get FUCKING JAIL, NOT FUCKING PRISON, ASSHOLES.

      And on Slashdot, you normally get modded down for that many capitals in such a short post. Also, does every reader of your post REALLY need to see three "four letter" words?

      While the use of colorful language can often indeed put a good deal of emphasis on a particular issue, it fails to work when there is no context (like here - where no-one knows if you swear a lot of not at all) but it also fails to work when there is too much emphasis in a bit of text (like here) as the emphasis is lost in an overall blur. Basically, if you put everything in bold, it's all normal and there is no bold highlight.

      Also, I read a few posts down you have a reason to be angry and that someone is too much of a moron to understand why? Again, it's all about communication. If you want to be treated like an adult, like an equal member of a community (whether here on slashdot or in life in general) instantly dismissing people only alienates them and will result in further ostracising you in this situation. If you can't be bothered to explain why you are angry, don't expect anyone to understand, or much less care that you are.

      --
      Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
  18. Re:fp by commodore64_love · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's worth giving your life for a worthy cause, like protecting you & your neighbors' freedoms from a tyrannical non-representative British government, as the man who uttered that quote was doing.

    Otherwise, no.

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
  19. I really don't care what you call it by nurb432 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Changing laws to convert a civil corporate issue into a criminal issue also fall within my statement.

    Its still industries buying laws. Its still misuse of public funds/resources.

    And i don't care what the purchased laws say, its still not a 'crime against society'.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:I really don't care what you call it by squidfood · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Its still industries buying laws. Its still misuse of public funds/resources.

      You know, I'm pretty strong anti-current copyright, I think the copyright lengths are way out of whack; DRM circumvention laws are wrong; fair use should allow more sharing than the industry wants, etc.

      But I also think that (were everything to reach a reasonable compromise one day) that uploading an unreleased album to wide availability (where even its sale hasn't yet been permitted by the rightsholder) could reasonably be called a misdemeanor theft on the level of shoplifting, and that (minor, short-term) incarceration rates could be reasonable as a maximum penalty. Whether or not a judge should grant the maximum sentence on first offense is another matter.

    2. Re:I really don't care what you call it by nurb432 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      See, i don't see a problem with offering a file ( or downloading it after its offered ), and don't equate it to shoplifting in the least.

      Now, if he was selling access or making $ off banner ads due to the downloads, then we would be on the same side of the fence. Tho i would still argue against a *criminal* charge since the original object was not harmed and is still in 'sale-able condition', I fully agree its illegal in that case.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    3. Re:I really don't care what you call it by conureman · · Score: 2, Informative

      Currently, the Federal Government hasn't taken jurisdiction on shoplifting enforcement.

      --
      The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
    4. Re:I really don't care what you call it by st0rmshad0w · · Score: 1

      While I agree in principal, the fact that this was concerning material that was not available for public consumption it is more akin to say, making copies of Intel's new CPU plans and putting them online. There have been laws covering this for years.

      What does amaze me is that ages ago before DMCA etc there were a bunch of young hacker kids who were hit with big fines and felony charges for what amounted to possession of a document they could have legally bought from the phone company for $11.

      So as assinine as this is, it could be a whole lot worse.

    5. Re:I really don't care what you call it by Requiem18th · · Score: 1

      Not only they changed sharing a song from civil infraction to federal crime but raised it to the level of felony, like, you know, arson, murder, rape etc...

      --
      But... the future refused to change.
    6. Re:I really don't care what you call it by Ashriel · · Score: 1

      Misdemeanor, actually. Six months is a jail sentence, not a prison sentence, unless the throw the guy in a federal pen (which they probably will, even though they shouldn't).

      People who go to jail are drunk drivers, prostitutes, small-time thieves, and occasionally someone on an assault charge. It's not as bad as it might sound, but it's still a pain in the ass to get locked up for 6 months. At least it won't affect his ability to get a job once he gets out (don't have to report misdemeanors on applications).

    7. Re:I really don't care what you call it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's like most things: too little is ineffective and too much kills you.

      Too little light and you freeze, too much light and you fry.

      Too little medicine and you remain sick, too much and you shut down.

      Too little copyright and a few slick jerks get rich off you, too much copyright and you become a rich, slick jerk.

    8. Re:I really don't care what you call it by PixetaledPikachu · · Score: 1

      See, i don't see a problem with offering a file ( or downloading it after its offered ),

      I'll start offering access to your house for free

    9. Re:I really don't care what you call it by Requiem18th · · Score: 1

      It almost sounds lucky.

      --
      But... the future refused to change.
  20. Re:fp by Niris · · Score: 4, Funny

    To paraphrase: No one ever won a war by dying for his country. They won the war by making the other poor sap die for his.

  21. Time Served by xyno512 · · Score: 2, Funny

    But the album sucks. The fact that he actually had the the tracks and listened to them should be punishment enough.

  22. This is utterly disgusting. It makes me sick. by Rod+Beauvex · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If they even put a quater as much effort into fixing the economy and punishing the people who caused this fuck up, we'd be a super power in a week, and the prisons would be bursting at the seams.

  23. Brilliant by HangingChad · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Because it's not like we have enough people in prison now.

    Our corporate run detention facilities will start losing money is we don't find new reasons to fill them up with relatively minor offenses.

    Half of people in prison are there for violent offenses. That half stays. The other half we need to take a good hard look at just why we're so gung ho remove people from their ability to make a living and pay to warehouse them.

    --
    That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
    1. Re:Brilliant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2009/02/13/pennsylvania-judges-plead-guilty-in-juvenile-center-kickback-scheme/

      "Once in a while, a story comes along that defies intellectual discussion or debate and just sort of slugs you right in the solar-plexus.

      Such is the case with this story that broke yesterday out in Scranton, Pa., where two judges pleaded guilty to operating a kickback scheme involving juvenile offenders. The allegations: the judges, Mark Ciavarella Jr. and Michael Conahan, took more than $2.6 million in kickbacks to send teenagers to two privately run youth detention centers. "

    2. Re:Brilliant by Reziac · · Score: 1

      The U.S. population has roughly doubled over the course of that chart, but the "criminal" segment of the population is now more than four times as large. This despite that violent crime, per FBI stats, is about 1/3rd what it used to be.

      So according to the FBI's crime stats, we should actually have FEWER people in prison despite the population increase.

      Yep, there is something *seriously* wrong with this picture.

      War on drugs, tough on crime, zero-tolerance, privatized prison systems... yeah, I see *exactly* what's wrong with this picture.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    3. Re:Brilliant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Half of people in prison are there for violent offenses. That half stays. The other half we need to take a good hard look at just why we're so gung ho remove people from their ability to make a living and pay to warehouse them.

      This really isn't much of a mystery, and doesn't take a 'good long look'. We want to lock people up who interfere with the operation of society to punish them and deter others.

      Non violent offenders include crooked contractors, congressmen who take bribes, financiers who run ponzi schemes, people who forge checks, shoplifters, vandals, identity thieves, burglars, corporate espionage, and on and on. Subsets of these non-violent offenders are obviously way more deserving of incarceration than some of the violent ones.

      Copyright violators? Well, if you thought copyright law is inherently unjust, then clearly you'd think any penalty for violating copyright is an injustice. But violence and aggregate prison numbers have nothing to do with it.

      I have trouble getting worked up much about it, either way. On the one hand, I don't listen to much popular music, and don't understand why Guns and Roses specifically would be able to sell an album to being with. But if you're not prosecuting this sort of non-accidental, pre-planned, not-even-close-to-fair-use violation, then copyright protections become pretty meaningless. Not a heinous crime, but a misdemeanor and up to six months in a (minimum security) prison, while nothing I'd ever want to face, isn't exactly the full, horrific power of the state, either.

    4. Re:Brilliant by Pantero+Blanco · · Score: 1

      Half of people in prison are there for violent offenses. That half stays. The other half we need to take a good hard look at just why we're so gung ho remove people from their ability to make a living and pay to warehouse them.

      It's wrong to equate "non-violent offenses" and "minor offenses". One person can wreck another's life, or the lives of several other people, without putting a scratch on them. Madoff's the poster boy for that right now, but it isn't limited to cases like his.

      I think we should deal with the crowded jail problem at both ends... Fine or force service out of minor offenders as a substitute for prison, and kill more of the worst offenders.

    5. Re:Brilliant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As soon as it became profitable to lock people up that was the end of it. Then the profit makers looked for reasons to lock people up.

      Sure some people do NEED to be locked up, but most don't.

    6. Re:Brilliant by Reziac · · Score: 1

      An AC replied,

      "As soon as it became profitable to lock people up that was the end of it. Then the profit makers looked for reasons to lock people up. Sure some people do NEED to be locked up, but most don't."

      Exactly my point. My understanding is that one of the biggest lobbying forces toward "tough on crime" legislation is the privatized prison system....

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  24. Re:fp by v1 · · Score: 1

    MacArthur wasn't it?

    --
    I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
  25. Glad They Are Doing This . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    . . . since it obviously means the Feds have solved all the big problems that plague the country. Woohoo!!!

  26. Re:fp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    No, Patton.

  27. At that price... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    The album, which cost millions

    No wonder people pirate music. I'd pay 20 bucks tops.

  28. You should by Weaselmancer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Less risk. Is WalMart going to claim each track on that CD you stole is worth $750?

    Steal a CD, you're guilty of a $20 crime. But if you do it with a computer somehow you're liable for (14*$750=$10,500) dollars worth of damage.

    Or in this poor sap's case, 6 months in a federal lockup for daring to offend his corporate masters.

    Amazing, isn't it? That the feds and corporate America are actually making the case that it's better to physically rob a store rather than simply downloading an mp3? It's unreal.

    --
    Weaselmancer
    rediculous.
    1. Re:You should by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      I dunno, I thought the ironic part was that this is the punishment for pirating an album entitled 'Chinese Democracy'... Doesn't this sound kind of like how the chinese handle democracy? :D

    2. Re:You should by stuntpope · · Score: 4, Insightful

      He isn't being punished for stealing music, he's being punished for distributing it without authorization.

      Go ahead and steal a CD from Walmart - but then also advertise that you'll give a copy to anyone who asks, and give a copy to thousands. That's an apples to apples comparison.

    3. Re:You should by MadnessASAP · · Score: 1

      No, steal a CD from Walmart and then if someone asks you for 1 second clip of that song you say "sure" and give it too them. That's an apples to apples comparison.

      --
      I may agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to face the consequences of saying it.
    4. Re:You should by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's astonishing that you don't see the blatant differences in the crimes, and your logic proves your ignorance to the case that has been described. This guy wasn't only downloading music, he was UPLOADING it. The offense offers little difference from bootlegging music and selling it on the street, being that the only money involved is the lost revenue.

      So take that "$20" CD and multiply it by the number of downloads. THEN there's the case of damages, court fees and so on. It's not as petty as you make it out to be.

    5. Re:You should by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 4, Insightful

      At least the laws about copyright infringement here were passed by a popularly elected, semi-almost-functioning legislature. We should be blaming ourselves for electing politicians that pass laws mandating criminal penalties inthis instant.

    6. Re:You should by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I dunno, I thought the ironic part was that this is the punishment for pirating an album entitled 'Chinese Democracy'

      Uploading a pre-release is not piracy/infringement; it is actual theft. You are usurping the right of first publication and denying that right to the legal owner. In this case, the owner is actually being deprived of something real and monetizable.

      I've got no sympathy for these thieves. They have no excuse. Unpublished works are private property.

    7. Re:You should by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Slight difference: He uploaded the songs to his website. That's not something you can do accidentally. He knew exactly what the hell he was doing. These were also pre-release tracks, which makes it harder to argue it won't have an impact on sales.

      Finally, his "too cool for school" pose in front of the courtroom isn't doing much to generate sympathy from me. Excessive punishment? Yeah, it is. But I still don't feel sorry for him.

      I think I'll save my concern for some housewife, grandmother, or student who gets financially ruined by the RIAA just for downloading a few songs.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    8. Re:You should by Paracelcus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When is the "Average Joe" American going to get it through their thick skulls that they don't live in a "Free" country, the US gummermint just has a different way of distributing oppression that other authoritarian regimes do!

      Due Process? we don't need no stinking due process!

      --
      I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
    9. Re:You should by Internal+Modem · · Score: 1

      He is not being prosecuted for downloading a CD. He uploaded a CD before it was released. I am happy he did it, but your post fails....

    10. Re:You should by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it is NOT an apples to apples comparison. In the Wal-Mart issue they are missing inventory. In the digital distribution, not the case.

    11. Re:You should by MWoody · · Score: 0

      It's not the downloading that's a crime; it's the uploading to other people that's being punished. Had you downloaded it off, say, rapidshare or just a random web link, you'd be liable for the $20 cd.

      That's the oft-ignored flip side of all the apologists who claim they're downloading torrents because they lost their original discs, or own it on another format, or any of a number of seemingly innocuous reasons: you forget that you're enabling other people who aren't necessarily so chivalrous.

      So yes, legally it's better to physically rob a store than to seed a torrent. As well it should be.

    12. Re:You should by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      the laws about copyright infringement here were passed by a popularly elected, semi-almost-functioning legislature.

      ..who were receiving millions in campaign donations from the "music" industry.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    13. Re:You should by Macthorpe · · Score: 1

      No, it's not. You have displayed intent to share the whole song, even if people are only taking 1 second chunks.

      --
      "It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
    14. Re:You should by Znork · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's a matter of debate; power in the US congress tends to get wielded by people supported by less than 20% of eligible voters. That's on par with what former one party system rulers tend to get when countries move to democracy.

      We should be blaming ourselves for electing politicians

      With first past post systems there isn't enough choice to put much blame on the voters. With only two or three realistic choices any candidates with a chance can easily be bought, and any unbuyable candidate smeared enough to not make it.

      Perhaps the blame should be for not applying enough tar and feathers to get the system fundamentally changed...

    15. Re:You should by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Uploading a pre-release is not piracy/infringement; it is actual theft.

      It is a political act first and foremost. The person who uploaded the tracks almost certainly did not profit from it, unlike the record company and the RIAA. Of the three, I'd say that only one party cares a bit for music.

      I will only buy music directly from the artist. I don't want one penny of my money going to support the RIAA or the people who support them. I never, ever go to any concerts organized by Live Nation or any other conglomerate for the same reason. Although I'm not a fan of U2, I have always enjoyed the production work of Brian Eno. Still, I won't spend a nickel on any of their products or concerts because of their relationship to Live Nation.

      Finally,that this band spent "millions" making an album constitutes a hostile act toward their fans and the very art of music. Seventeen years and millions of dollars to put out a record of three-chord, blues-based rock and roll? They have lost their fucking minds.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    16. Re:You should by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      No! I have to repeat this all the time, but it never gets old, because the **AA continue to spread the FUD:

      One copy does NOT result in a lost sale. Because first of all, what do you think, how many people would actually buy it, if they could not copy it at all?
      I think nearly nobody.
      Because most people (except from those that lie and steal anyway) know exactly that the artists deserve something in return. We have an inner feeling of what is right and wrong.
      So if it poses no big problem, they will buy it, before copying it, anyway.

      The problem is, that most of the time, it either simply is not worth the hard-earned cash, or you plain and simple do not have the cash. Especially in todays economy.

      The only ones who would buy it if they had no other choice, are people with too much money or to whose it is worth very much. But those already buy it, if they can. So it leaves the tiny group of people with no money, who would even run themselves into debt to get it, when they can't get it otherwise.

      Which of course makes the original argument something between moot and complete bullshit.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    17. Re:You should by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Our greatest oppression comes not from the government (who, after all, we can vote in or out as we choose) but from the corporations and ownership classes who believe that we exist only to provide them with a steady stream of profits.

      To them, we are the consumables.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    18. Re:You should by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ..who were receiving millions in campaign donations from the "music" industry.

      Funds they use to buy advertising that has a huge effect on undecided voters. If we stopped voting for the guy with the convincing advertisement, there would be no need use for any of that money.

      Politicians get money because voters chose to be influenced by the things money buys. Fancy consultants, advertising gurus, branding specialists -- they pay big bucks for these things because they work, which is no one's fault but our own.

      A democracy is defined by giving the populace the government that it richly deserves (credit to Mencken, I think).

    19. Re:You should by erroneus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You are correct in just about every way but you do not state the problem strongly enough. In almost every state and district, the laws related to how people get on the official ballots are heavily slanted to favor the two big parties and work very hard to prevent third parties from appearing at all. Typically, the highly twisted laws are used to aggressively prevent or to remove candidates of third parties and independents from ballots. In the last election cycle, however, we saw attempts at turn-about where third parties attempted to remove either or both of the two big parties from ballots and in EVERY case, those attempts failed. In Texas, especially, the violation of the rules were clear and obvious -- the two big party presidential candidates failed to meet their filing deadlines and the Texas state government simply decided to ignore the law and literally gave no explanation for it at all.

      This is not a failure of the voters. This is a failure of the system at large and I find it is quite typical. The law only applies when those in charge feel it applies and does not when it is not convenient.

    20. Re:You should by theillien · · Score: 1

      Again, I see someone with a dissenting opinion from most /.-ers the post is modded down for being a troll.

    21. Re:You should by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Still not THEFT!

      Its still a copyright violation, and indeed a more serious one than your usual run of the mill MP3 sharing.

      But its not theft.

      Your right of distribution is established in copyright, your right of first publication... actually isn't. Remember the system was set up to encourage people to share their works, you are REQUIRED to publish to get protection. Thats why there's laws that establish things like mandatory licencing. Restricting access to the creative work goes directly against the laws intent.

      Private property is my house, your unreleased album is exactly that, unreleased. Its not property until it has a physical presence.

      You have certain rights over your creative work, please note, creative work. Not property, property has a specific legal meaning and this ain't it.

    22. Re:You should by Logic+and+Reason · · Score: 1

      If we stopped voting for the guy with the convincing advertisement, there would be no need use for any of that money.

      And if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. Face it, democracy is broken. Always was, always will be, because it tries to fight human nature. Compare to capitalism: for all its faults, capitalism has done fantastically well for us because it thrives on self-interest.

      Of course, I expect replies from the usual armchair economists who will show their lack of historical perspective by snidely pointing out the current economic downturn, as if that somehow disproved the claim that markets have an overwhelmingly better track record than do governments, democratic or otherwise. Bring it on!

    23. Re:You should by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The proles aren't loyal to the party, they're loyal to each other.

    24. Re:You should by easyTree · · Score: 1

      Doesn't this sound kind of like how the chinese handle democracy?

      It certainly seems that way but we all are doubtless guilty of confusing american (1984-style) propaganda with reality. Because america is a hotbed of corruption and stupidity, the greatest threat to them continuing in the same vein, must be painted as 'evil'.

    25. Re:You should by synthesizerpatel · · Score: 1

      No, that's not really amazing because it's apples and oranges.

      Stealing a single CD from a retailer is simply shop-lifting, redistributing pirated copies is another kettle of fish. You can't defend this guy on the argument that he's being treated harsher than a shoplifter, completely different situation.

      Use your scientific mind and analyze what actually happened, don't pick up random causes to defend because you believe in 1% or 100% of what you THINK the "victim" believes in.

      Don't just give a free pass to anyone who pirates, there are many subtle shades of grey that you probably wouldn't want to be associated with.

      If you don't like what corporations sell, don't buy it. If you're not buying what they make. It's the same argument I'd use with someone who thinks that TV is too violent or sexual -- nobody's putting a gun to your head saying 'CONSUME THIS CONTENT'. Or HIS head. He made a dumb choice.

      Change the channel or turn it off completely,
      Don't buy the CD,
      Don't goto the movie,
      Don't read the magazine,

      Reject the content and find yourself magically free of any negative repercussions and these trivial aarguments trying to prove that 'stealing' is ok or acceptable in some forms but not others.

      Stealing is stealing until the law says different.

    26. Re:You should by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The difference with a computer is a) there's less chance of being caught so the punishment has to be jacked up to compensate for it in order to be an effective deterrent, and b) when you steal a CD, you're gaining one copy of the product, whereas this guy uploaded the content in the first place so millions of others could steal it (and most likely obtained it illegally himself). As is generally the case with illegal P2P even if you're not the original uploader.
       
      Now hmm, let's see...you could punish one person for illegally distributing it online in the first place and have morons bitch about it once on Slashdot; or you could punish the millions of people who illegally downloaded it and have morons bitch on Slashdot about each and every court case related to it and how everyone is innocent and "Big Media","ZOMG MAFIAAAAAAAAAA" are heartless bastards.
       
      I'll go with option 1 thanks.

    27. Re:You should by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      "...as if [the GFC] somehow disproved the claim markets have an overwhelmingly better track record than do governments, democratic or otherwise."

      Capitalisim is great and all but how is it possible without law, and how is law effective without enforcement? - And please let's not talk about everyone bartering for horses out of the goodness of their hearts, that's just as fantasmagorical as the socilist's sharing and caring paradise.

      "Face it, democracy is broken. Always was, always will be, because it tries to fight human nature. Compare to capitalism: for all its faults, capitalism has done fantastically well for us because it thrives on [percieved] self-interest.

      So you are saying that people don't vote for their percieved self-intrest? - Where are these people and how can I get these self-sacraficing souls to vote for my self-interests?

      BTW: I have nothing against convincing adverts, if you are convinced by an advert then you are simply naive.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    28. Re:You should by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      "I will only buy music directly from the artist."

      Do you only buy milk from the cow? - I mean let's face it, agriculture is full of arseholes that would make the RIAA blush. /sarcasm

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    29. Re:You should by cavebison · · Score: 1

      Exactly how can we be blamed for each and every piece of legislation, when the only choices we have at voting time are between two candidates? Parties should be abolished for the sake of Democracy.

    30. Re:You should by Logic+and+Reason · · Score: 1

      Capitalisim is great and all but how is it possible without law, and how is law effective without enforcement?

      I will not try to summarize the arguments here, but there is plenty of literature on the subject. In particular, check out some of Murray Rothbard's writings, such as Power and Market: Government and the Economy. This assumes you are at least open to the idea in the first place; if not, there's not much point in discussing it.

      And please let's not talk about everyone bartering for horses out of the goodness of their hearts, that's just as fantasmagorical as the socilist's sharing and caring paradise.

      Can we please leave behind the straw men?

      So you are saying that people don't vote for their percieved self-intrest?

      They have no incentive to invest the time and effort required to make an informed choice, because an individual vote accomplishes absolutely nothing unless the margin of the election would have been no greater than one vote. You've probably got better odds of winning the lottery, then using the money to fund your favored politician's campaign.

      Thus it is completely rational for self-interested voters to behave the way they do; it's a form of the free rider problem. That's why I said democracy fights human nature: it only works if you assume people don't act in a self-interested way.

    31. Re:You should by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      You're right, in that it's an apple to oranges comparison. Shoplifting is a felony offense. Piracy, or any variation thereof, is a CIVIL OFFENSE. The court system has no business considering a prison sentence. The court has been bought and paid for by the RIAA, and if they even have a mind of their own, then their hands have been tied by politicians passing laws dictated by RIAA and their cronies.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    32. Re:You should by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slight difference: He uploaded the songs to his website. That's not something you can do accidentally.

      Not true!!

      I've set up a touch pad on the floor of my bedroom, that uploads a song to my website, whenever my cat steps on it...

    33. Re:You should by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      You start by claiming capitalisim trumps government as if they somehow exist independent of each other. Then you say "bring it on". Now you claim democray is useless unless you are the one who gets to decide who wins. I suppose the next thing you will tell me is it's all about "individual Freedom". (PC compiler - strawman warning 101)

      Free government and Free markets are Free in that you are Free to participate. No one is promising you will win the lottery or be able to elect yourself as the local dog catcher. If you want to claim you are not Free to opt out of Free government AND/OR Free markets then I agree that Freely choosing to do so is not a viable option in most of the western world. Notice I said "not viable", you are Free to try but WE THE PEOPLE reserve the right to subject YOU to OUR laws on OUR turf.

      However there are large areas down here in Oz that if you skip your visa nobody will find you, you might even last a week before the crows start picking the eyes out of your corpse. If you want to shop around a bit more, maybe look outside the west, there is probably at least a third of the planet where you could Freely choose to live without a government and consequently without a market, Free or otherwise.

      Now I will happily burn my own strawmen, as above, if you stop making a fool of yourself by lecturing an old fart on human nature.

      Now get off MY armchair, punk!

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    34. Re:You should by trenien · · Score: 1
      So basically, you're only due justice if you're humble enough.

      Interesting

    35. Re:You should by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Finally, his "too cool for school" pose in front of the courtroom isn't doing much to generate sympathy from me.

      A photo of a somewhat shaggy-looking male wearing jeans, a jacket and a shirt while.. standing.. is "too cool for school" to sympathize with? You're stuck-up. He looks like an average 20 something dude to me.

      I think I'll save my concern for some housewife, grandmother, or student who gets financially ruined by the RIAA

      You'd rather see one of the above financially ruined before showing any "concern" - which probably would amount to "that sucks. oh well" and getting on with your day?

    36. Re:You should by owlstead · · Score: 1

      "At least the laws about copyright infringement here were passed by a popularly elected, semi-almost-functioning legislature. We should be blaming ourselves for electing politicians that pass laws mandating criminal penalties inthis instant."

      Aw, yes, you might want to try that in other countries, though even in the Netherlands, I don't see this happen, and we have a multi-party democracy. In the US with their two party system: not a chance in hell.

      You choose the party that comes most closely to your ideals, and about none of them won't be influenced by the record industry once in power. We should be focusing on influencing the sitting officials instead - and making sure the industry has less power over them.

      In other words: theoretically you are right, but this is just not practical - it's not how democracy works.

    37. Re:You should by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Actually, you get remarkably better product that way when it comes to agriculture.
      Some of the big grocery chains have gotten to the point where they seem unwilling
      or unable to do what is necessary in order to shrink their supply chain for highly
      perishable items. Stuff like milk gets caught in the crossfire of beaurocracy.

      You were trying to be funny and sarcastic but ended up bing insightful by mistake.

      If there was a nearby CSA or a proper farmer's market, I would buy from it.

      Although simply buying from a grocer bright enough to flatten their supply
      chain is still a remarkable improvement over your garden variety grocer that
      takes the RIAA approach to the problem.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    38. Re:You should by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, TapeCutter, capitalism (note spelling) is precisely what happens when you have minimal laws, and even most of what happens when you have no laws. Socialism (again, note spelling) is the end of things that requires immense amounts of law and enforcement. People naturally have a strong sense of private property, and most people naturally respect most of other people's property. These two things lead quite directly to capitalism; in fact they are the defining characteristics of capitalism.

      Don't worry, I'll see myself off your lawn. Geezer.

    39. Re:You should by The_Wilschon · · Score: 1

      Oh, get off your high horse. The reason for that is that claiming to have a dissenting opinion from most /.-ers is a very effective way to troll. The result is that by far the majority of dissenting opinion posts are in fact trolls. There's always a tradeoff between false positives (which you claim we have here) and false negatives. If we swing the needle back towards marking fewer posts as trolls, we will quickly be overwhelmed by troll-threads, without really gaining very many legitimate dissenting opinion posts.

      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
    40. Re:You should by theillien · · Score: 1

      It has nothing to do with being on a high horse. A user makes a simple statement which isn't offensive nor does it attack anyone. It is simply not in line with the mob mentality I find on here far too often. As a result, he's labeled as a troll. It's one thing to need to regulate the people that make ridiculous statements repeatedly. However, this isn't the first time someone has decided that their opinion is the "right" one and someone else's is wrong and should be labeled as such.

    41. Re:You should by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      IMHO calling someone a "troll" is not more acceptable in poite society than calling someone an "ass" or "bitch" or "nigger". It's all name-calling and, if you are an adult or aspire to be an adult, should not be part of your conversation. Criticize ideas, not people.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    42. Re:You should by guruevi · · Score: 1

      So basically, steal a box from the Wal-Mart warehouse and distribute for free to anyone?

      When you download a copy, it doesn't get automatically redistributed to millions. Look at the next Bittorrent upload/download rate of any (copyleft or copyright infringing) torrent that you do. If you have a popular download, YOU will redistribute maybe 50% of what you downloaded before your download is complete. If you leave it overnight you might go up to 100% or even 200% if you got a big pipe. But that's it. I have distributed torrents for weeks of popular Linux distro's on a 500 Mbps link (at work) and only reached 1000%. That's 10x somebody downloads a full copy.

      Maybe others will redistribute too but that's their problem between the copyright holders and them and it might even be perfectly legal for them to do, if not the copyright holders need to go after them in civil court, not punish you.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    43. Re:You should by stuntpope · · Score: 1

      Piracy, or any variation thereof, is a CIVIL OFFENSE.

      There is a big FBI warning at the beginning of every movie DVD I watch that tells me otherwise.

      And from the back of one of my music CDs: "Warning: Unauthorized reproduction of this recording is prohibited by Federal law and subject to criminal prosecution."

    44. Re:You should by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the farmer could email me the milk I would, maybe you should try a car analogy instead.

    45. Re:You should by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We should be blaming ourselves for electing politicians that pass laws mandating criminal penalties inthis instant.

      Then, elect those that don't.

      I wouldn't hold my breath.

        -AC

    46. Re:You should by cyn1c77 · · Score: 1

      Politicians get money because voters chose to be influenced by the things money buys. Fancy consultants, advertising gurus, branding specialists -- they pay big bucks for these things because they work, which is no one's fault but our own.

      A democracy is defined by giving the populace the government that it richly deserves (credit to Mencken, I think).

      While your statement is true, it doesn't mean that it is the people's fault. These companies spend billions of dollars to influence voter opinion to their benefit. And there are no large corporations counter-lobbying "for the good of the American public" because that goes against the mindset of a corporation. The average, nonparanoid citizen doesn't stand a chance.

      The corporations infiltrate your government and guide the law to their advantage. They force propaganda into your home through magazines, newspapers, TV and online ads. They lie to you so they can meet their objectives. Sounds like espionage to me.

      And if you disagree with what is going on, you can waste your time by writing to your congressmen (who will ignore you), protesting legally (being ignored), or protesting aggressively (and getting arrested). Meanwhile you will still have to buy some products from the corporations and they profit.

      Sounds like a fair fight to me.

    47. Re:You should by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      At least the laws about copyright infringement here were passed by a popularly elected, semi-almost-functioning legislature. We should be blaming ourselves for electing politicians that pass laws mandating criminal penalties in this instant.

      Yes but I don't think there have been any elections where a choice between Democrat and Republican would have made a difference on that issue. So it's pretty tough to blame us, the voters.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    48. Re:You should by Darby · · Score: 1

      However, this isn't the first time someone has decided that their opinion is the "right" one and someone else's is wrong and should be labeled as such.

      You seem to be under the delusion that that constitutes a problem somehow. There are plenty of opinions that are dead wrong, and plenty of people repeatedly spouting them off anyhow.

      In general, what you described is a good thing. It's called calling a liar a liar. It's only a bad thing if the opinion in question even has any merit in the first place, which I note you haven't even bothered attempting to demonstrate, instead choosing to whine that everyone doesn't treat reality as if it were a Fox news segment.

    49. Re:You should by theillien · · Score: 1

      You seem to be under the delusion that that constitutes a problem somehow. There are plenty of opinions that are dead wrong, and plenty of people repeatedly spouting them off anyhow.

      In general, what you described is a good thing. It's called calling a liar a liar. It's only a bad thing if the opinion in question even has any merit in the first place, which I note you haven't even bothered attempting to demonstrate, instead choosing to whine that everyone doesn't treat reality as if it were a Fox news segment.

      You seem to be confused about opinions being right or wrong. Read up on it and then try to offer something beneficial to the conversation.

      Having an opinion that differs from yours doesn't make someone a liar. Nor does having a misguided opinion based on incorrect information. Blatantly making false statements, however, might. If anything, your thoughts on the matter are more Fox News (in the bogus Fair and Balanced view) than anything I've said.

    50. Re:You should by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Copyright infringement is a civil matter. New York Country Lawyer can help with understanding that. The FBI warning is FUD, disseminated by RIAA and their freinds. "Ric Hirsch, ESA, Senior Vice President of Intellectual Property Enforcement, said, "This new seal will serve as a clear and important reminder to consumers that piracy of game products is illegal and may be subject to criminal enforcement." http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel04/piracy021904.htm

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    51. Re:You should by Darby · · Score: 1

      You seem to be confused about opinions being right or wrong.

      Not really. A person's opinion can easily be wrong given that people seem to offer up as "opinions" nonsense they heard on TV. If they don't know anything about an issue, then for them to even offer an opinion on the matter is already an insult to anybody listening and a dishonest act. That is to say, if they were capable of forming an honest opinion on the subject, then it's not possible that they would form the one they put forward. This happens all the freaking time, especially on the news.

      Nor does having a misguided opinion based on incorrect information.

      *Having* a misguided opinion based on incorrect information doesn't make one a liar. *Stating* that false information as if it were fact does.

      Calling somebody out for telling a lie whether or not they disingenuously pretend it's stated as an "opinion" is a good thing. Pretending propaganda and bullshit is ok to spout off as if it were true as long as you pretend it's "opinion" is still completely dishonest and it's still a bad thing.

    52. Re:You should by Hucko · · Score: 1

      Well, I won't point to the current economic downturn, but I will point the the 60 years prior and query if the trend is where we would like to go? I personally am against feudalism.

      --
      Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
    53. Re:You should by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      "People naturally have a strong sense of private property, and most people naturally respect most of other people's property."

      Your "ism" makes you believe it's foundation is natural, see my horse batering strawman in the thread above. Fuck the spelling, ism's are all the same. Besides, I'm only "biringing it on" to entertain myself here...

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    54. Re:You should by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      "You were trying to be funny and sarcastic but ended up bing insightful by mistake."

      It was no mistake, my point is you cannot eliminate distributers of one kind or another and have an economy. Of course you are free not to deal with those you don't like.

      And what is it with US milk, people tell me it lasts for weeks - the (homgonised/pasturised) milk here lasts 3 days in the fridge.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    55. Re:You should by Fluffeh · · Score: 1

      Finally,that this band spent "millions" making an album constitutes a hostile act toward their fans and the very art of music. Seventeen years and millions of dollars to put out a record of three-chord, blues-based rock and roll? They have lost their fucking minds.

      Technically, I am sure it didn't cost millions to PRODUCE itself, but rather the lifestyles that GNR had for seventeen years cost millions - hence the price tag on the album.

      --
      Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
    56. Re:You should by chefren · · Score: 1

      I bet the artists have to pay the RIAA for selling their own records.

    57. Re:You should by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      "maybe you should try a car analogy instead."

      To paraphrase Monty Python; I am not an individual.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    58. Re:You should by Locklin · · Score: 1

      the laws about copyright infringement here were passed by a popularly elected, semi-almost-functioning legislature.

      ..who were receiving millions in campaign donations from the "music" industry.

      Money that is a requisite for running a successful campaign in the current system.

      --
      "Knowledge is the only instrument of production that is not subject to diminishing returns" -Journal of Political Econom
    59. Re:You should by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't blame myself, I vote libertarian. The problem is everyone else who votes Republicrat or Demopublican. (Compared to the range of parties in a proper multi-party system, the Dems and Reps are nearly indistinguishable from each other).

    60. Re:You should by The_Wilschon · · Score: 1
      You know, you didn't actually address anything I said. I still maintain that we would get completely swamped in trolls long before we would gain any significant number of non-troll dissenting posts. If this is the case, then attempting to save the non-troll dissenting posts at the cost of any semblance of lucidity and good faith in discussion is just not worth it.

      Now, at least on the face of things, it appears that there are two points on which you might disagree with me, and discussion of these would be an actual *reply*. You might disagree that swamping us in trolls is a bad thing, if it saves a scant few dissenting posts. You might also disagree that we would be swamped in trolls. Would you like to discuss one of these two points, or perhaps even some other point on which you might disagree with me that I didn't think of?

      A user makes a simple statement which isn't offensive nor does it attack anyone. It is simply not in line with the mob mentality I find on here far too often. As a result, he's labeled as a troll. It's one thing to need to regulate the people that make ridiculous statements repeatedly.

      I do not disagree with any of this. I don't even dispute that the post in question might be non-troll. However, I do disagree that this statement is relevant:

      However, this isn't the first time someone has decided that their opinion is the "right" one and someone else's is wrong and should be labeled as such.

      I claimed, and still claim, that this is not what is happening here. If you still don't understand what I claim *is* happening, please read the second sentence of my original post.

      --
      SIGSEGV caught, terminating

      wait... not that kind of sig.
  29. federal prosecutor, what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I'm confused, why is a federal prosecutor involved at all, copyrights are a civil matter. I know there are some cases where its criminal but I thought that was more into the bootlegging category.

    Filesharing never included commercial gains so had neatly side stepped the criminal aspects of the law. Or at least thats what I'd thought.

    1. Re:federal prosecutor, what? by Ashriel · · Score: 1

      Actually, copyright violation is a federal offense, has been for some time. I take it you never bothered to read the FBI Warning statement that appears in commercial VHS and DVD releases. The standard penalty is up to 5 years in prison and/or $250,000 dollar fine for each infraction, so getting only 6 months is actually kind of light.

      Also, this wasn't a case of filesharing in the standard P2P sense; this guy uploaded the album to his website (which is really, really stupid).

      The reason you see most copyright violation cases as civil issue is because there aren't a lot of people actually trying to turn a serious profit off of it (that is to say, out in the streets hawking black market copies), and the FBI doesn't really care about filesharing.

  30. Re:fp by jdbausch · · Score: 3, Informative

    exact quote: "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

  31. Re:fp by Niris · · Score: 1

    There we go . I had to paraphrase it because I didn't want to quote it wrong and was too lazy to open another tab and google it *sighs*

  32. Not prison, that would be jail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    If you are sentenced for under a year, you go to jail, not prison. The author apparently was mistaken.

  33. Performing Music by hackus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... is work. You get paid for working. Historically for hundreds of years, people paid to see performing arts. Now, we have a problem.

    Then, we had radio and advertisers who played the performances in public, for everyone to watch.

    Now, it would seem, unless your shafted by paying for a piece of plastic, your a criminal because you did not buy the plastic the performance is on.

    My problem is that it would seem greed has continued to encroach upon our rights because the middle man people here refuse to acknowledge how they have turned business models that made millions for them and they refuse to use anymore because they do not want a limit to how much money they can make.

    So they came up with download a single for $4 dollars and then complain when people will not download it and pay for it, calling them criminals.

    In fact, this corporatism that is dictating business models to its citizens, even when they do not work, then turn consumers into criminals when they feel the old models of advertising and performances is how people get paid for music, I think THEY are the criminals.

    People with music talent should perform and hit the stage to get paid.

    Same thing with people who write books, and print media. You get paid, and you put it on the web. People who download it pay through advertising.

    It works.

    As far as I am concerned people are going to jail because we are being ORDERED TO CONSUME by corporations and the penalty for not consuming is prison.

    -Hack

    --
    Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
    1. Re:Performing Music by Internal+Modem · · Score: 1

      I blame Enrico Caruso.

    2. Re:Performing Music by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except when one doesn't get paid, and there's no advertising revenue.

    3. Re:Performing Music by Macthorpe · · Score: 1

      As far as I am concerned people are going to jail because we are being ORDERED TO CONSUME by corporations and the penalty for not consuming is prison.

      You were mostly sensible up to this point - I don't understand how you reached this conclusion from the rest of your post. No corporation has ever successfully ordered me to consume anything, and oddly enough I haven't broken any laws in doing so. Can you elaborate?

      --
      "It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
    4. Re:Performing Music by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      I knew what we was saying. Ill elaborate.

      In all of history, the culture of a peoples were free. They got together, told stories, sang, made artwork, acted, you name it. This culture was open to everybody who was there. Even during Shakespere's time, there were free areas to view those rotten plays, but still were just plain free. Culture has always been a positive, participatory thing.

      Until now. Within the last one hundred years, certain entrenched intrests have found that there's profit in taking from this complete culture that we call public domain, and repackaging it into "locked up and proprietary". These stories and plays have been with our cultures for hundreds of years, free for anybody to do as they see fit. Then we have people like Walt Disney, who adds new technology and makes an animated version. Others do the same, taking from these similar sources going back as far as the ancient Greeks.

      Normally, our story would end. However, these media companies made so much money, and employed so many people, government paid attention and heeded their decision to further extend copyright, along and enhance penalties to bring them to the exorbitant. Now, enough time has passed that the older connections to our culture (those stories, books, songs) have slowly deteriorated, being replaced by this new heavily copyrighted culture.

      Something neat happened once these media and culture regurgitating companies realized that their media _was_ the new culture: they could create demand by creating the culture as they saw fit, and charge admission. Never has this been done before, charging to be a part of this civilization. Of course, some realized the sick game these companies did. However the "culture" dismisses those who go against it as nerdy, stupid, conspiracy-theorist, or whatever other names for nutjobs.

      There you have it. It's not really a "Order to Consume" but a need to do so, if you have any connections to normal people in this country. They feed from this culture, and accept the costs associated as if they have always been with us. So, in order to have that 'connection', we need to meet somewhere halfway.

      Unfortunately, that means to these very media types "Piracy".. which I think it's time for their little game of charging should end, and the internet is seeing to that.

      --
  34. Who's really to blame? by fishizzle · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The album, which cost millions and took 17 years to complete, was released November 23 and reached No. 3 in the charts. The sentence being sought -- including the calculation of damages based on the illegal activity of as many as 1,310 websites that disseminated the music after Cogill released it -- underscores how serious the government is about punishing those for uploading pre-release material.

    Are they trying to insinuate that because this album cost millions of dollars more to develop than most albums should, that pirating it is in some way worse because it will take even longer for them to recuperate such losses?

    News flash big business: if you spend 10x as long, and 10x as much money as anyone else in that industry would on creating a product, it is not society's responsibility to compensate you. You deserve to lose money, and probably deserve to go out of business over the project.

    Besides the ridiculous cost and timeline for developing the album, it seems the primary stakeholders were determined to tank this project regardless (see: http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/india-news/axl-rose-blamed-for-band-missing-no-1-album_100126311.html/). Blaming piracy for any financial difficulties this album has suffered is more ridiculous than usual.

    1. Re:Who's really to blame? by budgenator · · Score: 1

      it seems that this Kevin Cogill guy is a blogger and music critic, the label probably sent him a pre-release CD for review and is likely to be an insider leak.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    2. Re:Who's really to blame? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It had all that exposure on the web, and still made #3 after it was released? And the exposure was harmful in what way? As you say, ÂBlaming piracy for any financial difficulties...Â

    3. Re:Who's really to blame? by chazzf · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, members of society have no right to steal (or receive) said work and distribute it--for free--without any possible authorization. Leave computers, which make everything magical and different, out of it for a second. He received a batch of brand new, stolen TVs off the back of a truck, and fenced them out of his garage. What a hero.

      --
      No statement is true, not even this one.
    4. Re:Who's really to blame? by lennier · · Score: 1

      "Leave computers, which make everything magical and different, out of it for a second. He received a batch of brand new, stolen TVs off the back of a truck, and fenced them out of his garage. What a hero."

      No, see, information *is* magical and different, because it replicates.

      He received one brand new, stolen TV off the back of a truck, ran it through his Star Trek replicator, made copies, and gave those copies away free to passers-by out of his garage.

      That's why in the Star Trek future everyone has to get central Starfleet permission for replicator coupons to avoid breaking the economy.

      Can't have people flooding the market with free TVs. That's food taken right off the TV designer's table. It takes a lot of time and money to design a new TV and if anyone can manufacture one in their garage, that's just like stealing.

      If we don't buy new TVs every week, what will all the TV designers do for a living? Huh?

      A culture without a fresh new TV design each week just isn't a culture I want to live in, do you?

      --
      You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
    5. Re:Who's really to blame? by pimpimpim · · Score: 1

      News flash big business: if you spend 10x as long, and 10x as much money as anyone else in that industry would on creating a product, it is not society's responsibility to compensate you. You deserve to lose money, and probably deserve to go out of business over the project.

      Actually, checking the news recently it seems that the opposite is true. If you manage to fuck up just big enough, you can ask for a government bailout and get it. All this with the reasoning that otherwise, jobs will be lost. I wonder how long those "saved" jobs will last, considering that the company was apparently stupid enough to not foresee the current financial situation. The interesting thing is, if you as a company have been thinking forward, and are now doing well, and could well create many more jobs because your product/service is sound, you won't get a penny. we're lost.

      --
      molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
  35. Hmm... by Pollux · · Score: 1

    Taking my money to pay somebody else's housing bill is theft of labor.

    Replace the word "housing" with "medical", and you have the basis of health insurance.

    Or don't you believe in health insurance either?

    I don't disagree with you that it's frustrating beyond belief that we live in a "capitalist" nation, where people should "live by the dollar, die by the dollar," but when people & businesses make fiscally irresponsible decisions, it's OK to rob from the responsible to support the irresponsible. But this still isn't theft. Agreements (explicit or implicit) exists between you and them that permit this to happen. In terms of insurance, we pay to be part of the socialist program. In terms of government, we elect the bozos that enact these asinine policies.

    So, it's not theft. It's the government. (If you want, you may choose to finish this response with, "Same difference.")

    1. Re:Hmm... by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Replace the word "housing" with "medical", and you have the basis of health insurance.

      Or don't you believe in health insurance either?

      The difference is that the government doesn't force us at gunpoint to buy health insurance, like it does with taxes. It only does that for medicare, and medicare is wrong too!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    2. Re:Hmm... by soupforare · · Score: 1

      ...the government doesn't force us at gunpoint to buy health insurance...

      Unless you live in Massachusetts.

      --
      --- Do you believe in the day?
    3. Re:Hmm... by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      At least insurance is voluntary. I choose not to buy any, since I think it's cheaper to "pay as you go" when the bills roll in. Paying my current ~$100 a year health expenses is cheaper than paying the insurance dues.

      >>>it's OK to rob from the responsible to support the irresponsible.

      I disagree. I consider if a violation of human rights.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    4. Re:Hmm... by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

      At least insurance is voluntary. I choose not to buy any, since I think it's cheaper to "pay as you go" when the bills roll in. Paying my current ~$100 a year health expenses is cheaper than paying the insurance dues.

      ...and then the day you find yourself needing long-term coverage you cannot afford, you'll find that there is no insurance available that can protect you from that risk, because of all of the idiots like you whose adverse selection made it impossible to insure against that risk.

    5. Re:Hmm... by makomk · · Score: 1

      I don't think US health insurance is very helpful for long-term conditions anyway, from what I've heard. Insurance companies do shady things to get out of the contract if there's any sort of expensive long-term condition - if they even cover it at all. Plus, if you lose your job and can't afford to pay the expensive monthly fees even once, you're screwed - goodbye insurance, hello big bills.

      The insurance model just isn't a good fit for health care.

  36. Dare to touch it? by tgrigsby · · Score: 1

    So I have a question: When you read the banner, did you try going to the website antiquiet.com just to check it out, or did you not dare to visit it for fear the feds would be monitoring who hits that site?

    --
    *** *** You're just jealous 'cause the voices talk to me... ***
  37. Pirates and Bankers by willow · · Score: 2, Funny

    Good news. He can rot in jail along with all the bankers the feds arrested for stealing hundreds of billions via fraud. Oh wait...

    --
    Moderation in everything, including moderation.
  38. Re:fp by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    George C. Scott, I believe, actually.

  39. Non violent offenders should not go to prison. by PinchDuck · · Score: 1

    It costs way too much, and the punishment does not fit the crime. House arrest with a tether, a fine (stiff, but not back breaking), and a stereo that plays "Air Supply" 24x7 for the length of his sentence. But prison time? That's fucked.

  40. Jail time? by wtansill · · Score: 1

    For a "crime" described as a misdemeanor? Isn't that whole "cruel and unusual punishment" clause still in effect somewhere?

    --
    The contest for ages has been to rescue liberty from the grasp of executive power. -- Daniel Webster
    1. Re:Jail time? by russotto · · Score: 1

      For a "crime" described as a misdemeanor? Isn't that whole "cruel and unusual punishment" clause still in effect somewhere?

      Misdemeanors traditionally can have jail time attached, just not much, where "much" is a number which has crept up over the years -- I think the current Federal definition is "up to one year" and some states have so-called misdemeanors with up to two years in jail. Worse, if you're convicted of a state misdemeanor which carries a maximum jail time of more than one year (even if you're sentenced to less), the Feds consider that a felony.

      It's also traditionally "jail" time and not "prison" time, but I don't think the Federal system makes that distinction.

    2. Re:Jail time? by wtansill · · Score: 1

      Fortunately I've never had worse than a moving violation, and so was unaware that a misdemeanor could involve incarceration. Thanks for the education!

      --
      The contest for ages has been to rescue liberty from the grasp of executive power. -- Daniel Webster
  41. Restitution + public service announcement by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 2, Funny

    In addition to asking for Mr. Kogill's imprisonment, the RIAA is asking the Judge to order Mr. Kogill to pay them $30,000 "restitution" and make a "public service announcement". I think directing Mr. Kogill to do a "public service announcement" for the RIAA would be "cruel and unusual punishment".

    --
    Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  42. Petty theft = theft by Omestes · · Score: 1

    If Martha Stewart or Bernie Madoff lived next to you, would your life, property, freedom, or the lives of your family be threatened? No.

    Contradicts

    Petty theft? No.

    Isn't petty theft a threat to your property by definition?

    Other than that I do find your ideas pretty interesting. I would be all for legal reform along these lines, IF (and only if) the standard was applied universally, regardless of socioeconomic status, race, or demographic. Fat chance of that ever happening.

    I do think that jail, though, can be a lesson. Remember the legal system should exist to punish and reform behavior, and not just make sure people pay back some "debt". Spending a weekend in jail can sometimes work wonders, especially for things like petty theft and graffiti (which should net the death penalty, IMO, even if I'm against the corporal punishment).

    --
    A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    1. Re:Petty theft = theft by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      Isn't petty theft a threat to your property by definition?

      Yes, I don't think I made it clear in my post but this is assuming that the person paid back the item (either by giving the item back, or paying the cash value of the item), sure, in essence it can be a threat to your property, but most petty theft is equivalent to something that can go wrong with your merchandise. For example, someone stealing a $20 CD would be just as damaging as someone accidentally breaking the $20 CD and not confessing. Both though are small losses.

      Fat chance of that ever happening.

      Thats exactly why our current jail system needs to be reformed. For example, a rich teenager with well-to-do parents could probably get out of a jail sentience for, say, smoking marijuana, where the person with parents who are looked down in the community may get a very harsh sentence. By eliminating the jail sentence part of it, it ensures that justice is fair, for example a month in jail is worse then a thousand dollar fine even if you only make seven hundred dollars a month, and fines are rather universal.

      I do think that jail, though, can be a lesson.

      But reasonings like this is why justice is applied unequally between social classes. The judge thinks that its going to teach the poor kid a lesson if they send them to prison, whereas the rich kid gets off with a fine because hes "a good kid" even though the kid of lower economic status may be a good person.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    2. Re:Petty theft = theft by Omestes · · Score: 1

      But reasonings like this is why justice is applied unequally between social classes. The judge thinks that its going to teach the poor kid a lesson if they send them to prison, whereas the rich kid gets off with a fine because hes "a good kid" even though the kid of lower economic status may be a good person.

      Sadly that reasoning will always be applied, I fear. We generally work under the erroneous assumption that net worth = personal worth, it seems. Though I still think there their should be some punishment aspect to all crimes. The deterrent aspect to the legal system should still be there.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    3. Re:Petty theft = theft by Fluffeh · · Score: 1

      Not to be rude, but italics is for freehand text or emphasis. Italics on most computer screens just make for harder to read annoyingly slanted text.

      Stop it.

      --
      Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
    4. Re:Petty theft = theft by Omestes · · Score: 1

      I forgot to close a tag, sorry about that. Yeah, there is a preview, but where is the fun in that?

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
  43. Wow by cronco · · Score: 2, Funny

    I guess Axl wasn't kidding with the lyrics to the track IRS off the record:

    Gonna call the President
    Gonna call a Private Eye
    Gonna get the IRS
    Gonna need the FBI

  44. For those who don't know Italian, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    If YANAF, you might not understand the Italian fashion term prima fascia, which means "the belt is the best," a motto used by designers who favor sashes, cummerbunds, and other such accessories.

    However, such obscure phrases are subject to much misunderstanding and misuse, which constitute prima facie ("on its face") evidence that such linguistic frippery is better left unused when possible.

    1. Re:For those who don't know Italian, by conureman · · Score: 1

      Thanks, I knew that, but got confused by the phonetics of the accepted pronunciation. All my Latin I learned in comic books, or something.

      --
      The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
    2. Re:For those who don't know Italian, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      YANAF? You Are Not A Fag?

  45. Answer: I had to pay thousands for Iraq by copponex · · Score: 1

    But somehow killing a few hundred thousand people and torturing thousands of others has less moral hazards then trying to prevent the complete collapse of the value of real estate in America.

    The footstools of the business party continue to scream, "Let the market do it's job!" It just did it's job - unregulated financial transactions led to a huge bubble which has burst. We are now doing what is necessary to correct the mistake of allowing Wall St to run it's own show. Glass-Steagal rules from the Great Depression are coming back, having just been removed in 1999. Banks will not be allowed to do anything but bank, and insurance agencies will not be allowed to do anything but insure, and hopefully this generation will never again listen to the bullshit argument that deregulation is a good thing.

    Canada and it's "socialist" banking system, complete with protectionism, hard regulatory rules, and total government oversight, is now rated as the best banking system on earth. It's a crazy world, isn't it?

    1. Re:Answer: I had to pay thousands for Iraq by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>But somehow killing a few hundred thousand people

      Strawman argument. Why do people believe this is an effective debating tactic? I most certainly did not support the war. Nor do I support redistribution of wealth from my wallet to other persons to buy them Lexuses.... er, houses. Those persons need to sell their houses and move someplace cheaper, like an apartment, not resort to theft from their neighbors.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
  46. Re:fp by couchslug · · Score: 1

    "it only took two hundred years to go from "I regret that I have but one life to give for my country," to, "eat my asshole." :( "

    Don't think of it as poor speech, think of it as brevity!

    --
    "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  47. "Create jobs": thath's skewed priorities by jonaskoelker · · Score: 1

    Social Democratic programs can be implemented in ways that create jobs

    That's of course the most important thing, and I have the PERFECT solution!

    You're going to need a plot of land and a bunch of people who need a job. Half of you take the first day off. The other half digs a whole. On each subsequent day, each person in the first half fills up an empty hole, while each person in the other half digs a new one. Compensation is all the produce, split evenly.

    There you go, jobs for everyone.

    I can haz prsidenzy?

  48. What about a reverse legal theory by voss · · Score: 1

    If the government can make the legal case that unlawful pre-release of material causes harm, why cant the opposite argument be made?

    1) The commercial value arguement- The amount of time something has been released should be directly related to the amount of damages one can claim, If a pre-release violation creates more damages then a violation of an old copyright should create less damages

    2) The abandonware argument- copyrighted material that has gone out of publication cannot be litigated for damages because it has ceased to have commercial value.

    1. Re:What about a reverse legal theory by Internal+Modem · · Score: 1

      I am sure those arguments can be made. That is what trials are for.

  49. he did take money away from them .. it's true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    when he posted it and people had a chance to hear how badly the album sucked they didn't have to buy it first to figure it out ......

  50. Unfortunately he gave it all away to his family by Timo_UK · · Score: 1

    and friends. And because this is not the West Bank, communal punishment is not an option.

    --
    Timo's Audio Software http://www.esseraudio.com
    1. Re:Unfortunately he gave it all away to his family by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Giving away something after it is imminent that you will lose that item doesn't count. You can go after the family on the items. It's the same as if you give stolen property to someone. Just because they can prove that they didn't do anything wrong in receiving it doesn't mean it actually belongs to them.

    2. Re:Unfortunately he gave it all away to his family by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Receiving stolen goods is a crime in a lot of places whether it is a gift or not.

  51. Re:fp by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

    No, Duke Nukem.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  52. re: weapons drawn by King_TJ · · Score: 1

    Unfortunately, it all seems to boil down to intimidation and trying to hammer home the whole "respect my authority!" thing.

    Back in the early 90's, I had a whole group of FBI agents descend on my parents' home (while I was off at work), to search for and seize my computer systems that ran my hobby bulletin board system. They had guns drawn and the whole bit for that, as well.

    (After sitting on my property for about 3 years and doing absolutely nothing with it, it was all returned to me one evening, by a rather sheepish and apologetic agent, who dropped it all off in the family station wagon.

    Obviously, there's NO reason to go into ANY of these scenarios with guns ready to shoot, unless they had expectations the person in question was going to put up a gunfight or something. Yet they do and HAVE been doing it for over a decade. Go figure.....

  53. Re:fp by redcaboodle · · Score: 1

    Terry Pratchett in "Monstrous regiment".

    --
    -- Put crudely, the world is an extremely large problem instance. (Russel/Norvig Artificial Intelligence)
  54. Re: weapons drawn by AngelofDeath-02 · · Score: 1

    It's overkill
    but I guess it's to make their position clear ...
    You can kill people for breaking and entering into your house, normally ... maybe they are preparing for the worst?

    --
    No, I am not an English major. My posts are subject to typos and incorrect grammar. Do not expect perfection.
  55. We live in a Chinese Democracy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Obviously with this kind of "justice", we live in a Chinese Democracy.

  56. Like post-Revolver Beatles? by tepples · · Score: 1

    The record industry is just a promotional vehicle anyways - you only make money on concerts after getting famous.

    So I take it you think all genres of music are either A. amenable to live performance or B. not worth making a living from. Such a mentality would likely have shut down The Beatles after Revolver; later Beatles albums relied on editing-room special effects to create a distinctive sound.

  57. ...at gunpoint? by Red_Chaos1 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    ...really?

    I didn't realize music pirates were so dangerous these days.

    Gettin' rough out there on the bleeding edge of the internet...

  58. Explanation please? by supaneko · · Score: 1

    Already, Mr. Coward, sir...

    Since you seem to be so knowledgeable about what is going here, please, enlighten me as well as the other "slashbots" because honestly, I don't see why this is a criminal matter (except for the obvious reason that this law should clearly be a CIVIL law and NOT a criminal law).

  59. Apples n' Oranges by pentalive · · Score: 1

    Steal a CD, well you have your own CD.

    "Do it with a computer", and you have given those fourteen tracks to some large number of other people, they are guessing this is worth something like 525 CDs ...

    Isn't this guy in trouble for putting the track up on the network, not downloading them?

  60. ever tried paying the rent with art? by cliffski · · Score: 1

    ever tried paying the rent with art?
    idiot

    --
    DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
  61. we the people want to know by DragonTHC · · Score: 0

    "The sentence being sought [underscores how serious the government is about punishing those for uploading pre-release material.]"

    What were the charges?

    Is copyright infringement really a criminal offense now?

    Why is the government serious about punishing a guy who apparently disseminated copyrighted material, and not serious about an organization conspiring to fix prices, engage in a campaign of frivolous litigation, knowingly use evidence obtained illegally, and violate the 4th amendment by conducting illegal searches of protected computer systems without a warrant or permission.

    Why is the government more serious about protecting industry from the people than protecting the people from industry?

    --
    They're using their grammar skills there.
    1. Re:we the people want to know by Ashriel · · Score: 1

      Why is the government more serious about protecting industry from the people than protecting the people from industry?

      Because industry pays better, of course.

  62. Not the same thing. by pentalive · · Score: 1

    Disrespect != Assault

    Even if the assault is a wimpy overhand toss of footwear.

  63. Housing Bubble by copponex · · Score: 1

    Strawman argument. Why do people believe this is an effective debating tactic? I most certainly did not support the war.

    Hey, don't strawman a strawman. I saw your sig supporting Fox News, and naturally assumed you shared talking points with Sean Hannity and the rest of the animal-brained.

    Nor do I support redistribution of wealth from my wallet to other persons to buy them Lexuses.... er, houses. Those persons need to sell their houses and move someplace cheaper, like an apartment, not resort to theft from their neighbors.

    First of all, you need to read the Wealth of Nations, especially Book V. You'll discover that Karl Marx isn't the only person who believed that people should contribute according to their ability to the state (for example, graduated tax rates where the rich pay more taxes.) This is not about anything but the stability of an economy. The boom and bust cycles inherent in markets require something to calm the cycles. There's a lot of information in the market, but that doesn't mean it cares about it's own survival. It's subject to the "irrational exuberance" and panic of people.

    Moving along... There are two basic ways I see out of the housing asset bubble, which is the worst current symptom of the deregulation of the financial industry. As you can see here, there appears to be no bottom to home prices. This kind of drop even leaves hard working people, who made good choices, with an asset that is now worth 20 or 30% less than it was two years ago. These people have no choice but to stop spending money, since they cannot open lines of credit against an over-leveraged asset, and many of them are also losing their jobs.

    As the real estate prices continue to drop, the economy will continue to implode. Imagine if you lose your job, and your home drops in value to where you're $80,000 upside down, which may be reality if you look at historical home prices. You're probably going to ditch it, because trying to survive and pay your mortgage is basically a dead end, further flooding the market with another foreclosure, leaving another bank with a toxic asset, and the cycle deepens. We can either let housing prices fall back in line with inflation and hope that the economy doesn't absolutely collapse, or step in to soften the landing with a combination of government spending, slightly higher inflation, and come out the other end with better infrastructure in the process.

    This is the downward spiral that thinking people are worried about. If you aren't worried about it, that's fine. But present some real argument, instead of an idea spoon-fed to you by ideologues who were hired for their entertainment value.

    1. Re:Housing Bubble by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      There's an obvious bottom, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Case-shiller-index-values.jpg . It's a long way to go still, trying to prop prices up above those level will screw the economy even more than letting them fall.

      The problem is that people consumed based on credit and surprise surprise you can't do that forever. The bust is actually a good thing, the problem was the ridiculous "live on credit" crap.

      Most mortgages in the US are nive to the borrower in that they can walk away and the lender is stuck with the loss. Since the lenders were insane for lending in the first place they deserve it anyway so all is well.

  64. Here's a thought for the recording industry by Bootarn · · Score: 1

    Maybe it reached its no. 3 chart position thanks to actions like this?

    A lot of people who downloaded the album probably went to the record store afterwards to buy the CD. I usually download an album before buying it to avoid paying $20 for a record just to find out that it's pure crap, and not being able to return it since the seal is broken.

  65. The sentence should be by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    Life at the federal minimum wage, with any money he makes above that level garnished until 3x the amount he stole is repaid. He may receive no more than 2087x the federal minimum wage, including gifts or in-kind donations for the rest of his life. Anyone disobeying this order shall be held in contempt of court and be enjoined as jointly and severally liable for his court debt. Joint property with any party (including his wife) shall be sold and the proceeds split 50/50.

    That way, if any of his family tries to help him out, they forfeit everything.

    It's just a matter of crafting the ruling properly. If people can think up a way to make 20% per year by reselling mortgage risk multiple times on the same money, they can craft a ruling that will make him live like a pauper for the rest of his years. And THAT would be the best punishment for him.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    1. Re:The sentence should be by Shadow99_1 · · Score: 1

      yeah know... what I find funny in that is how 'federal minimum wage' and 'pauper' are defined to be one and the same.... yet the federal minimum wage is supposed to let someone provide for a family in concept...

      --
      we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
  66. There's a difference by rxan · · Score: 1

    It's one thing to just steal a CD from a store. It's completely different to go ahead and upload those tracks to the internet for free distribution to millions of people.

  67. If I had to guess... by Xenographic · · Score: 1

    > Oh and since you consider debt relief to be a human rights violation I can't wait to hear what you call forced homelessness and starvation.

    "The American Way"?

  68. Re:fp by easyTree · · Score: 1

    it only took two hundred years to go from "I regret that I have but one life to give for my country," to, "eat my asshole." :(

    Yet another numerical indicator of the phenomenal rate of wo]mankind's progress...

  69. And the sad part? by Chas · · Score: 1

    The album STILL sucked dong.

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  70. Somebody 'splain this to me... by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1

    How the eff does an album by has-been musicians take "millions of dollars and 17 years to complete"? Seriously, our sense of monetary value for certain things in the world is seriously out of whack. Who decided that musicians, athletes, and actors are worth millions of dollars? Far be it for me to sound Marxist but come on people, this is ludicrous.

  71. Say what?! by meerling · · Score: 1

    He does a non-violent misdemeanor. He was arrested at gunpoint and is looking at 6 months in prison?!?! WTF !!! Don't get into a fist fight in that city, or they might execute you!

  72. Waste by Joebert · · Score: 1

    For crying out loud quit wasting prison space on non-violent people.
    Ruin the guy financially and save the prison space for taking real threats to society off the streets.

    --
    Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
  73. Pre-Release only? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ha, the gov't only cares if we upload pre-release stuff. They must not give a damn about the already released stuff...

  74. Put an end to it by uassholes · · Score: 1
    Don't ever buy music.

    What? You say you have to? Okay, then live with this horseshit.

  75. yes! Jail everyone you insensitive ....... by freaker_TuC · · Score: 1

    Maybe it reached its no. 3 chart position thanks to actions like this?

    So, yes, I think so too, the RIAA should put everyone into jail to get their artists in the top-5! ;)
    Sounds like a great business strategy ... eradicate those who could copy!

    --
    --- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
  76. This is going too far now. by unity100 · · Score: 1

    societies do not need to be terrorized with this dimwit copyright crusade by their governments against their own people. intellectual property needs to be abolished. this, im saying despite being a liberal in terms of economics.

    1. Re:This is going too far now. by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      societies do not need to be terrorized with this dimwit copyright crusade by their governments against their own people

      I for one welcome the control of our RIAA overlords, and their kind offer to permit the defendant to reduce his "restitution" by making a "public service announcement" to help them make more money.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  77. Re:fp by Vexorian · · Score: 1

    No, really, it isn't.

    --

    Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
  78. I actually liked a lot of the album by opencity · · Score: 1

    I know that sounds weird. It's too big, too dense, but a strange piece of art. Appetite was a piece of its time, ages ago where the world and pop culture are concerned. After everything here's this really strange overblown symphonic hair metal techno(?). Riad is a cool groove and IMHO the best track.

    Of course I didn't like it enough to buy it. I listened to it while they were streaming it free off myspace. Not great, but rock's finished anyway (unless some Radiohead fan wants to flame away)

    Apologies in advance for posting without ranting about the RIAA.

    --
    Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.
  79. Irony is not lost on the Feds by aeroseth · · Score: 1

    It would be one thing if the G'n'R tracks from Chinese Democracy were awesome, and the best they've ever put out.

    That's far from the case, it's the worst G'n'R I've ever heard.

    I find it ironic that the Feds who really have bigger fish to fry want to make such a lame example of this poor kid. I think instead they should arrest Axel and put him in prison for 6 months for even wasting our time.

    Shouldn't the Feds be out there doing something useful like finding Elvis, Jim Morrison, even a Sasquatch or space alien?

    --
    "Is that real poncho or a Sears poncho?" ~~FZ
  80. Re:fp by laejoh · · Score: 1

    A man may fight for many things. His country, his friends, his principles, the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd mud-wrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn.

  81. Fair enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At the very least he should be jailed for distributing such bad music.

  82. Sweet child of mine by UnixUnix · · Score: 1

    Now instead when I see his face

    I take him away to that special place

    And if he stared too long

    I probably wouldn't give a damn

    (Woahhhh) Sweet child o' mine...

  83. Re:fp by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

    The Russians would dispute this. Year after year they died, incurring more losses than any other country (2 dead Russians for every 1 dead German), and yet they still beat back the Nazis. So the quote's conclusion is wrong.

    Well, what do you expect? You're quoting a movie scriptwriter - not a war expert.

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
  84. Re:fp by lennier · · Score: 1

    "It's worth giving your life for a worthy cause, like protecting you & your neighbors' freedoms from a tyrannical non-representative British government"

    Imagine if there'd been no American Revolution: we could all be sitting here speaking *English* and drinking tea.

    The horror!

    And our leaders could be making war and levying taxes without caring that we're opposed to it. Thank goodness we're free of *that*.

    --
    You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
  85. Jail is good by Ikyaat · · Score: 0

    People Choose go to jail all the time, here in Canada. When charged with a minor criminal act, you are fined by the government, $5,10,25,000, whatever. You can either pay the money, or go to jail instead. Duration based on the amount you owe. Lots of people do not have the money to pay the government, so they go to jail. They're allowed out to go to work, returning after for a nice hot meal and a warm bed. Use the gym facilities, watch a movie, read a book. Prison on the other hand. Is shawshank redemption meets the midnight express. Not much fun.

    --
    "Luck is a tag given by the mediocre to account for the accomplishments of genius." -Heinlein
  86. If he'd murdered the CEO he'd get 5 and do 2. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you're going to get fucked m

  87. Equal standards under the law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apply an equal standard. A handful of tracks released = prison time. Actually releasing the album should have been a capital offense because it was so godawful - they should put Axl behind bars.

  88. slight distinction by fuliginous · · Score: 1

    You don't do any good dieing for your country/cause/purpose but through the willingness to die in the all costs achievement of strategic aims that do benefit and to which you join the effort of achieving.

    As for the twit somewhere above about the tyrannical British, go get a better grasp of the history.

  89. Sure you can by RexDevious · · Score: 1

    1. Download/Pirate/Share/Whatever the music you want.
    2. Send the artists who made what they would have made (from about $1 to 20 cents) if you'd bought it.
    3. The artist have now been paid and, unlike residuals, the record company can't keep the money to pay off "marketing costs".

    If people did this as a matter of course, bands would flourish and record companies would perish... at least as distributors and marketers - two services artists don't need but are forced to pay for. The few things they do well, getting a producer, or getting the artists a loan (ie. the advance), can still be done; but at the discretion of the artists who now have the power because people pay them directly.

    My friend and I started a site which let people look up artist contacts where they could send money, but then I got high and sort of wandered off...