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Project OXCART Declassified From Area 51
An anonymous reader sends this excerpt from the LA Times:
"... the myths of Area 51 are hard to dispute if no one can speak on the record about what actually happened there. Well, now, for the first time, someone is ready to talk ... Colonel Hugh 'Slip' Slater, 87, was commander of the Area 51 base in the 1960s. Edward Lovick, 90, featured in 'What Plane?' in LA's March issue, spent three decades radar testing some of the world's most famous aircraft (including the U-2, the A-12 OXCART and the F-117). Kenneth Collins, 80, a CIA experimental test pilot, was given the silver star. Thornton 'T.D.' Barnes, 72, was an Area 51 special-projects engineer. And Harry Martin, 77, was one of the men in charge of the base's half-million-gallon monthly supply of spy-plane fuels."
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Write a book on gayness in area 51 and sell it on amazon.
They've been cleared to not talk about the aliens.
For those unfamiliar, the A-12 is more commonly known as the SR-71. It's not exactly the same aircraft, the SR-71 being the later development, but anyone looking at an A-12 would immediately recognize it as an SR-71.
The answer is in Area 42, but you must bring your own towel.
Any aliens sufficiently advanced to be able to travel to Earth from another planet, would be able to hide themselves......
Nuff said
If I had an Ass, I'd call it Fanny Bottom, then I could slap my Ass; Fanny Bottom, on the Arse.
" . . . half-million-gallon monthly supply of spy-plane fuels."
That's no mean trick. They condensed the stuff from the souls of mutilated cattle. The bovine victims stark terror at being lifted up into a saucer (in reality an airship coated with radium paint and filled with below-zero-ground state Helium) crewed by airmen dressed as alien "Greys" increased the fuel's specific impulse by nearly 30%.
I always found the name "OXCART" creepy, because of the famous von Neumann quote "I am not sure that the miserable thing can work, nor that it can be gotten to the target except by oxcart", referring to the weight of the atom bomb.
# cat
Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
Notice how there were no pictures in the article? They have been possesed by aliens and now they are going to spread the alien around the world! I'm off to Alaska, cause aliens are cold blooded
Laughter is the best medicine, except if you have a broken rib.
Yes but that's area 51. Area 51A might have aliens. Unfortunately, the location of area 51A is also classified.
If you were a government agency in charge of secret weapons testing, what better cover could you possibly come up with than implausibility? It may not have fooled the Soviets, but it sure fooled the American public. Nowadays Area 51 is usually mentioned in the same breath as JFK and Elvis' retirement community.
It would be interesting to check the Soviet archives and see what they thought was going on in Area 51.
> I WANT TO BELIEVE
You do realize Mulder's original poster look suspiciously based off a photo...
http://www.famouspictures.org/mag/index.php?title=Image:Figu_picture.jpg
--
"To say that people's consciousness can be represented as alien, and that people are afraid to face that facet of themselves, isn't too far off the mark."
The real conspiracy theory is that that is where the USA tests it's illegal weapons. After all, the U-2 was developed there to be used for illegal overflights, and it's existence was only discovered because the Soviets shot one down (and only then after denials coming right from the top). Seen that way, it starts to look reasonably likely that much worse things have been developed there.
# cat
Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
I think there was a typo in the article, it reads:
"And Harry Martin, 77, was one of the men in charge of the base's half-million-gallon monthly supply of spy-plane fuels."
I think it is suppose to read:
And harry MARTIAN #77 was one of the little green men in charge of the base's half-million-gallon monthly supply of flying saucer fuel."
Who cares about Area 51? Everyone knows the Stargates are in Cheyenne Mountain and antarctica.
Leave the gun, take the cannolis.
Regardless of what comes out it won't really change anything. The Area 51 mythos is to ingrained for conspiracy buffs to give it up. After all if Area 51 was just a secret government facility for planes, then what about everything else that was a cover up/conspiracy.
I'll say. We were fucking working on OX CARTS.
Also area 63, but you have to rememeber DONT PANIC
Laughter is the best medicine, except if you have a broken rib.
Oh yeah, and also it was very important that they keep the events there secret up until now. Some might ask why the hell you would need to keep it secret almost 50 years later, about a decade after the plane itself (not the prototype, the actual plane) was mothballed. But those people who would ask that are unamerican commie bastards.
but I don't. The moon rules #1!
Truly,
Stanton Friedman
Part of the problem is that only this one program is being declassified. There's no indication that this is the only project that would meet the 50-year rule. That is going to provide added fuel to the conspiracy nuts, because there is now confirmation about the infrastructure. It's not enough to say "project X took place" when it is near-certain there'd be dozens of projects being worked on in tandem.
Of course, TFA makes it clear that the problems are largely of the Government's own making. Denying a site exists when it's obvious it does simply draws attention to it - they very thing they SHOULD have been avoiding. Describing it in horribly boring terms would have been much more effective.
If you want to hide something that is in plain sight, the LAST thing you want to do is be seen trying to keep it out of sight. Call it a launch-pad for target balloons for night-fighter practice, if you like.
Of course, it's good that things are starting to be declassified. An incomplete history is a boring history and a deceptive history. However, like I said, there will have been parallel projects to this, some of which may have been canceled/completed many years earlier than OXCART. (OXCART started 8 years in. Don't tell me there wasn't a single failed and abandoned project in those first eight years.)
These other projects should be being released alongside this, especially if abandoned in the first eight years. They're no longer of significance to anyone but a historian, and if you think OXCART has few survivors, anything that never progressed as far will have had far fewer members to begin with and may well have no survivors left at all.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
This is OLD news. Search for the "OXCART story" and you'll find a pretty comprehensive history from an internal CIA historical publication. The author's pen name was "Thomas McInninch" or something very similar. This info has been on the web since at least 1996.
The best stuff happened at the ranch a little bit later than those guys are talking about. And they were never privy to the real black ops there. It's a need to know, you know.
...or (more likely) it was just stamped with a standard 50-year classification, and nobody wanted to be bothered to declassify it earlier. See, they don't know how long in advance things will have to remain classified, so they pick an arbitrary number far enough ahead that it won't release while it could still put our people and operations in jeopardy.
The meek may inherit the earth, but the strong shall take the stars.
TFA describes the attempts to create an oral history of the project from the surviving participants, since many are getting old.
Geez, you just felt like ranting, right?
Do you seriously question the need to conceal the nation's highest technology from other governments?
Lying to the public is obvious. You need to lie to the public because the public aren't the only people listening. The intelligence agencies know that anything said to the public in general is also being said to foreign agencies. It doesn't work to print a story in the local paper describing what's going on with a byline to make sure no one tells the Russians.
Drugging the pilot also serves an end: they gave him sodium pentathol to ensure that he was telling them all he knew, and didn't leave anything out, consciously or otherwise. This has as much of a use to reveal something the person didn't even realize they were concealing (mental block) than it does at trying to catch someone in a conscious lie.
Forcing civilians to sign a NDA: that should be self-evident. We're dealing with the most secret technology at the time, obviously the government is going to use legal tools to help ensure that it stays secret as long as possible.
The SR-71 was still in official operation late into the 1990s, the official service record is from 1964 to 1998. This year, about 10 years after it was retired, is about the right time I would expect the government to start talking about that plane. A government will only discuss its technology in public when that technology is no longer the best or would not be a threat if another government had it. I think it's fair to assume at this point that if another air force came at us with an SR-71, that we would be able to shoot it down.
Area 51 is a pile of hangers and a run way that house next gen planes... the reason it's secret is because even the shape and size of an aircraft can give away it's purpose.. in the mean time other governments can build counter measures against it even before the plane goes into production... Do you know what's next to Area 51? Area 52... it's a square on a map, nothing more.
obvious troll is obvious
So we have guys who were actually working at Area 51 and say there were no ETs or ET technology there.
Will this debunk any conspiracy theory?
No.
The axioms upon which the conspiracy theories are established will be protected. The theorists will interpret reality so as to protect their cherished axioms. The theorists will just say that these men are part of the cover up and that their declaration is in fact proof of ETs at Area 51.
Is anyone else dissapointed? Not that there were no aliens, or super-secret spyplanes, but that the mystery is lost? Area 51 was the fuel for imagination, the "what if" moments that it gave rise to. I, for one, shall miss the curiosity and sence of wonder when looking at the photographs and just imagining....
Karma Whoring for Fun and Profit.
The SR-71/A-12 project is simply amazing. This was the time of true innovation; these guys worked with titanium for the first time ever, designed a plane that goes over MACH-3 (much faster I believe) with tools like slide rule and a drafting board.
On the matter of speed:
If the top-speed of the F-15 of about 2.5 MACH. MACH 3 aint that much faster (relitively speaking) and you don't hear about special fuels and pilots waiting for the jet to cool off after a flight so they can get out. MACH 5 sounds about right...
Satellites in a predictable orbit are much easier to shoot down than the Blackbird (it was done last by an F-15 in 1985). For that reason alone, I am sure the SR-71's that are 'mothballed' are far from retired.
Really, it wasn't any secret among the American public (the non consparicy nuts that is) for some time that it is a flight test facility. The Soviets likely had an easy time telling that from satellite shots. So they likely had no trouble figuring out this was a testbed for US planes. By the secrecy surrounding it, they probably had no trouble figuring out it was for secret planes.
As for the specifics, I imagine not unless they got a spy in there. All the projects that have so far been declassified in terms of secret craft, like the U2, were quite effective at being secret from the public during their development.
I imagine if one were allowed complete access to the classified American records of the facility you'd discover that yes, it is just an aircraft testing facility that has worked with lots of neat planes.
Our rights were given to us by ourselves, not by God. We, not God, died to ensure those rights, here in the world. God died so that we would be allowed entrance to the magical cloud city in the sky. Even if we weren't from Texas. Hope that clears things up.
Why is it that conspiracy theorists love to believe that:
1. All unidentifiable flying objects are of extraterrestrial origin?
2. Highly-Secure (as opposed to 'secret') military installations have alien bodies and extraterrestrial spacecraft?
3. Mysterious animals in the Pacific Northwest are all Sasquatches.
4. Unexplained technologies are of extraterrestrial origin.
It's amazing how people sometimes refuse to acknowledge that there is an EXTREMELY SLIM CHANCE that any of these have actually occurred, yet continue to claim that they happen all the time.
Just because something cannot be explained in now way validates the fantasies of conspiracy theorists.
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
Basically what it gets down to is the more people who are in on something, the more likely information leaks out. Now as with any large government bureaucracy, when you involve another arm of the government, you get even more people than just those you needed. I mean if you go to the Air Force and secretly hire away some pilots, well then very few people even know that anything has happened, and all they know is that the CIA wants some flyboys. If you have the AF run it, well now you have all kinds of additional people who know about it.
A big part of keeping secrets is compartmentalizing information, and restricting access to the minimum amount of people.
Ben Rich's book, Skunk Works, his memoir of working at Lockheed and eventually directing the Skunk Works, mentions OXCART as the A-12's code name. It also discusses the test area (not using name "Area 51," but by the well-known alias "Paradise Ranch"), and a variety of other interesting projects from both the Kelly Johnson and Ben Rich eras at SW. The U-2, A-12 and SR-71 Blackbirds, and the F-117 are discussed in surprising detail.
Fun fact: the A-12 (CIA Blackbird) was retired and the SR-71 two-seater version was built for the USAF because the blue-suiters didn't like the idea of the CIA having its own private air force...
Oh, no! You have walked into the slavering fangs of a lurking grue!
Most of this info is in Ben Rich's book, "Skunk Works". The story doesn't have much if any new information. The SR-71 story is well known, and there's one at the Museum of Flight in Seattle. (They have the engineering documents for it, too, which can be seen on request.) Most of the stealth aircraft were tested at Area 51.
There are other sites "near" Area 51. Jackass Flats was a well known nuclear test area in the 1950s. (You can't really hide atmospheric nuclear testing.) The Sedan crater, from a nuclear test, is in that area. It's interesting to look at the area in Google Maps. There are all sorts of little abandoned installations in the Nellis Bombing Range area.
Back in the 1980s, the Lockheed Skunk Works ran a small ad in Aviation Week. It said only "If you missed out on this one (picture of U-2) and on this one (picture of SR-71) how'd you like to get in on the next one? Lockheed Skunk Works, Burbank, CA." That's how you got into stealth aircraft.
There's still a big USAF black budget, and it doubled during the Bush years. The question is whether much useful is coming out.
Anyone who saw a U2 or SR71 or F117 or other "black" aircraft flying around in the airspace near Area 51 would not have recognized what it was unless they has a security clearance. Ergo, to the general public, all of these "black" aircraft would (at the time they were being tested at Area 51 and before the public knew about it) have been Unidentified Flying Objects.
Whether there has ever been aliens at Area 51 is another matter altogether.
The truth comes out, but was hard to find in the article...
Colonel Hugh 'Slip' Slater, 87, was commander of the Area 51 base in the 1960s. Thornton 'T.D.' Barnes, 72, was an Area 51 special-projects engineer. Xorbz Blazzeet, 179, from the Orion system was dissected and stored in an Area 51 freezer for 16 years. And Harry Martin, 77, was one of the men in charge of the base's half-million-gallon monthly supply of spy-plane fuels.
At this point, I wonder if the government continues to deny its existence just to continue the myth. If they acknowledged it now, and told everybody all about what they've been doing out there, it would kill a chunk of modern folklore.
Amazon, where being gay makes you invisible
Fact: Everything I say is fiction.
This snippet from the National Museum of the US Air Force mentions the A-12 and has a link to the YF-12A, which was developed from the A-12, and has been on display in Dayton, OH for over a decade now.
http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=2699
Lying to the american public, drugging the pilot, forcing the civilians to sign a non-disclosure agreement... it's a good thing they kept this spy plane so secret. If the Kremlin had learned what our prototypes looked like at that point, the russian economy probably would have been much stronger, they never would have embarked on those economic reforms that backfired, and they eventually would have won the cold war.
Well, at least we're done with the ridiculous and pointless paranoia of the cold war. It would be terrible if our government were to get us into another "war" with a mostly imagined enemy in order to justify absurd spending on ridiculously overpowered and overpriced weapons, a bigger military, and a quieter citizenry, while stepping all over our god-given rights in the meantime and spying on us. Really dodged a bullet there.
Yeah, because the War on Poverty, War on Drugs, War on Terrorism, War on Pirates don't give the gov't any excuses to trample on our rights as citizens in the name of national "security theatre".
Disclaimer: The opinions and actions of the US Gov't are in no way representative of those held by this author or its ci
Since the government has been lying about this one for the past 50 years, and making up all sorts of inane shite to cover, if they don't outright deny it, am I supposed to believe this? Thus they have done their job of cloaking it in secrecy for the ages.
Of course, this explanation is entirely plausable, and I've suspected that it was pretty much what was going on. Of course, I can never know for sure, because this could just be yet more misinformation.
Disclaimer: The opinions and actions of the US Gov't are in no way representative of those held by this author or its ci
Joke's on you. They made an alien governor up there.
Ride the skies
How do we know that this story isn't really just a cover up for the UFO's at the site? You know, Occam's law.
The SR-71 was still in official operation late into the 1990s, the official service record is from 1964 to 1998. This year, about 10 years after it was retired, is about the right time I would expect the government to start talking about that plane.
As a kid growing up in the 1980s, I remember building a plastic model airplane version of the SR-71. I also remember watching the IMAX movie "Speed" that had a segment about the SR-71, including many in-flight closeups.
The SR-71 wasn't that secret.
Wireless Speaker: Calling Sky Captain ... Calling Sky Captain.
Wireless Speaker: Emergency Frequency 02118
Wireless Speaker: Emergenty Frequency 02118
Wireless Speaker: Calling Sky Captain ...
Sky Captain: This is Sky Captain ... I'm on my way!
This seems more like "some dude gives an interview" rather than "officially declassified by the government"...?
Advice: on VPS providers
> Do you know what's next to Area 51? Area 52...
Um, I'm pretty sure that Area 52 is in southwestern Netherstorm.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Area_52
Duh.
-AC
For those who haven't seen it yet, Fastwalkers 2006 Disclosure Project
;)
You can't handle the truth!
~ awaiting spiritual enlightenment ~
http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com/archives/7821-Major-Brian-Shul-I-loved-that-jet.html
Much of this "new" information was published in 1985 Kelly Johnson's biography, "More than My Share of it all". A fabulous read: http://tinyurl.com/d4ej8b
----- The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. -- Benjamin Franklin
to develop multi-billion dollar jet aircrafts for the sole purpose of concealing reverse-engineered secret antigrav air-to-space troop transports (project XBLuRG)shows the utter disregard of the Air Force for taxpayers' money.
We demand congressional hearings on this issue RIGHT NOW !
signed : PETT (People for the Ethical Treatment of Taxpayers)
anyone that's ever held a clearance can enjoy this news, even if it isn't as exciting as the enthusiasts around Area-51 feel let down.
It says to everyone else "Hey, maybe, some far off day in the future, you'll finally get to say 'I worked on that one thing.'"
Not just mothballed, actually put on public display.
Don't forget to bring a towel!
If the Kremlin had learned what our prototypes looked like at that point, the russian economy probably would have been much stronger, they never would have embarked on those economic reforms that backfired, and they eventually would have won the cold war.
I'll say. We were fucking working on OX CARTS.
A classic case of putting the cart before the OX.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
If OXCART is the big news that makes me wonder about these particular accounts.
During the 1942 Battle of Los Angeles the military instituted a mandatory black out of the entire city of LA & fired 1400+ Anti-Aircraft rounds at a single, quoting the military, "unidentified aircraft." The shelling lasted more than an hour. Despite numerous confirmed hits the craft remained airborne and eventually flew off without ever being identified. (Read the 1942 LA times article).
In 1948 green fireballs were seen over the south-western skies of the US near nuclear weapons research sites. Famous meteoriticist Dr. Lincoln La Paz declared they weren't normal meteors. In 1949 the USAF started Project Twinkle under the direction of Dr. Anthony Mirarchi.
The study concluded in a now declassified report that cinetheodolites had tracked 4 objects traveling at an "altitude of ~150K ft" (~28.5 miles!), were "30 ft. in diameter", & traveling at an "undeterminable, yet high speed." Mirarchi went on to later criticize a Time magazine article that claimed there was no proof to support the existence of UFOs.
Mirarchi wrote, "There was too much evidence in favor of saucers to say they could have all been balloons. 'I was conducting the main investigation. The government had to depend on me or my branch for information.' He said he didn't see how the Navy could say there had been no concrete evidence of the phenomena." (see here for more details)
Also in 1948 Dr. J. Allen Hynek, a self-proclaimed skeptic, joined Project Blue Book as a scientific adviser. By 1969 when Blue Book was shutdown Hynek did an about face. He wrote several books, particularly, "The Hynek UFO Report" which repeatedly stated that the attitude of Blue Book was, "it can't be therefore it isn't."
He also gave an interview, available on YouTube, where he said, "I was there at Blue Book and I know the job they had. They were told not to excite the public, don't rock the boat, & I saw it [with] my own eyes. ... The cases that were very difficult to explain they would jump handsprings to keep the media away from that." He later went on to found the Center for UFO Studies (CUFOS).
July 13 - 29th of 1952, over the skies of Washington DC, numerous UFOs were seen by observers on the ground, in the air, & tracked on radar. The situation escalated & General Samford, the Director of Intelligence of the USAF, held an emergency press conference. When asked by reporters what people were seeing he suggested the lights on the ground may have looked like they were in the air because inversions act like an "air lens" & bend light rays. He added that something similar could have "tricked" radar in to thinking it was tracking aerial targets. (ufologie.net...)
In 1969 an Air Force scientific report titled "Quantitative Aspects of Mirages" (Menkello, F.G. Report No. 6112, USAF, Environmental Technical Applications Center) made it clear inversions strong enough to create the visual effect described during the 1952 press-conference could not exist in earth's atmosphere.
1956 at RAF Bentwaters, Lakenheath, & Sculthorpe an object was sighted by several military officers on the ground while simultaneously tracked on radar at 2 different stations. The object moved at ~4000 mph and was monitored for several hours during which two planes were scrambled.
When the 1st de Havilland Venom locked on to the object the UFO shot to the rear of the plane. The pilot tried evasive maneuvers, couldn't break free & eventually had to return to base to refuel.
The 2nd plane encountered mechanical difficulties as it flew within range of the object. The
Aviation Week magazine is the best non-classified source for information on old, new, and proposed aircraft. "Black" projects can only remain "Black" as long as development occurs or if they are tiny.
Find a library with a subscription to Aviation Week if you want to know more. When I was in the business, it was about $300 for an annual subscription. Hopefully they have online versions now for much less cost.
In Soviet Kremlin, OX puts CART before YOU!
Sigh.
...but the story is in the LA Times.
In times of universal deceit, telling the truth gets you modded -1 Troll
shit no aliens or elvis... that's a shame!!!
Yeah, because the War on Poverty, War on Drugs, War on Terrorism, War on Pirates don't give the gov't any excuses to trample on our rights as citizens in the name of national "security theatre".
Wait, was the sarcasm in my post not thick enough to notice, or are you being serious there?
There was an SR-71 (and the YF-16) at the Carswell AFB Airshow in 1975 or 1976. It was still secret enough at that point that the output of the engines and true top speed was still classified, but everyone knew what it looked like and it's speed record was posted in Guiness at the time. They had an armed guard and a velvet rope to keep people from getting too close or going around behind the plane, I think. I was told at the time that the skin of the plane was very thin and could be damaged easily, but I'm pretty sure that was just a story so the airman wouldn't have to point his Ar-15 at 9 year olds. They had a rope around the YF-16 as well, but it was sittig out on the tarmac, the SR71 was half in a hangar. My elementary school was 1-2 miles southwest of the end of the runway and the blackbird left the base while we were at recess. Pretty much straight up like a rocket. The only other plane that could climb like that then was the F-15 I think and I never saw one go balistic like that. One of those cool things you remember from childhood anyways. Most badass looking plane ever.
"The Adobe Updater must update itself before it can check for updates. Would you like to update the Adobe Updater now?"
There is an SR-71 on display at Hill AFB in Utah. I am sure there are others. Safe to say they are probably mostly decommissioned.
William Cooper's book "Behold A Pale Horse" is a must read! http://bit.ly/R7HBx
Yeah, because the War on Poverty, War on Drugs, War on Terrorism, War on Pirates don't give the gov't any excuses to trample on our rights as citizens in the name of national "security theatre".
Wait, was the sarcasm in my post not thick enough to notice, or are you being serious there?
No, the sarcasm was quite clear. I just felt like adding a little more to it, though I wasn't taking a sarcastic tack.
Disclaimer: The opinions and actions of the US Gov't are in no way representative of those held by this author or its ci