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Unpaid Contributors Provide Corporate Tech Support
Hugh Pickens writes "The NY Times writes about Justin McMurry of Keller, TX, who spends up to 20 unpaid hours per week helping Verizon customers with high-speed fiber optic Internet, television and telephone service. McMurry is part of an emerging corps of Web-savvy helpers that large corporations, start-up companies, and venture capitalists are betting will transform the field of customer service. Such enthusiasts are known as lead users, or super-users, and their role in contributing innovations to product development and improvement — often selflessly — has been closely researched in recent years. These unpaid contributors, it seems, are motivated mainly by a payoff in enjoyment and respect among their peers. 'You have to make an environment that attracts the Justin McMurrys of the world, because that's where the magic happens,' says Mark Studness, director of e-commerce at Verizon. The mentality of super-users in online customer-service communities is similar to that of devout gamers, according to Lyle Fong, co-founder of Lithium Technologies whose web site advertises that a vibrant community can easily save a company millions of dollars per year in deflected support calls' and whose current roster of 125 clients includes AT&T, BT, iRobot, Linksys, Best Buy, and Nintendo. Lithium's customer service sites for companies offer elaborate rating systems for contributors, with ranks, badges and kudos counts. 'That alone is addictive,' says Fong. 'They are revered by their peers.' Meanwhile McMurry, who is 68 and a retired software engineer, continues supplying answers by the bushel, all at no pay. 'People seem to like most of what I say online, and I like doing it.'"
1) Tap into old school hacker community mentality.
2) Rely on good people to do your large organizations work for free.
3) Degrade your own service.
4) Profit!
Of course peolpe helping each other and a solid community are great, but in the context of this happening in lieu of large for-profit organizations providing quality service? I think not.
Seeing how they point out how this can save them millions of dollars leaves me nonplussed.
Now whenever a family member or friend asks me to fix their internet, I can have them give this guy a call instead of making excuses for myself.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits" - Albert Einstein
News at 11
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
Sounds like these guys are just being exploited by their own egos. Though surely they fill a niche and are appreciated by other users, what with the sorry state of "tech support" Verizon and other big corps maintain. I never call tech support anymore except as a dead-last resort, because if I can't figure it out there's hardly any chance some minimum wage boob with a script is going to help me.
Caveat Utilitor
Is this guys time worth nothing?
Yeah we've all been there as the angel tech support person. Problem is what when you get burned out of answering the same stupid question again and again, you'll quit doing it unless there's some incentive. I answered 20 or so tech questions on yahoo answers because I was bored, but that was short lived... I probably won't go back for another 6 months. Now, pay me something reasonable and I would go back every night.
"The NY Times writes about Justin McMurry of Keller, TX, who spends up to 20 unpaid hours per week helping Verizon customers"
No way should you ever do this. If it's worth doing then it's worth getting paid for doing it. And for each McMurry out there there is one less paid job at Verizon. Same with friends or neighbours. I'll fix their PC, but only if they pay me.
...says Mark Studness, director of e-commerce at Verizon.
Is that his real name or his porn name?
No way should you ever do this. If it's worth doing then it's worth getting paid for doing it. And for each McMurry out there there is one less paid job at Verizon.
Exactly! I've heard there are even idiots who will write and support entire computer programs for free! No wonder we're in an economic crisis...
Donate free food here
Oh wait thats bsd who mickeysoft routinely pillages for innovation and Linux who they are trying to kill.
Sounds like they could afford to put one or two of these guys on salary, then.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
Apparently BOftH was overpaid..
Exactly! I've heard there are even idiots who will write and support entire computer programs for free! No wonder we're in an economic crisis...
I'm calling bullshit on that one! That's just another one of those internet rumors...
This guy's the limit!
That's why no one would ever release software for free, or offer their time and effort helping out noobs on various Linux forums!
Honestly, thus far in this discussion y'all are sounding like complete hypocrites!
If a company wants to become serious about this, they could make unofficial certifications and hand out prizes to the top x posters for the month. Peer respect is great and all, but being well-liked on the internet doesn't get much.
120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
I bet, you have no problem with the government doing it, do you?
Let's instill volunteerism in young people — and those, who aren't excited by the possibility of unpaid labor, might find it harder to get into college (the linked to bill mentions "college credits" for participants). I mean, it worked so well for the USSR, we ought to try it — but not for a corporation, oh no!
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
I'm one of these types of people myself. If there is a software product that I'm personally very fond of and I feel that more folks might benefit from it than do, I'll actively attempt to support the product through this type of forum activity, giving advice, tutorial writing and generally ranting about it on my travels around the web.
I enjoy it. I dare say there's an element of liking the positive feedback too. I also feel that by supporting the userbase of my chosen product I might be helping retain a few users who might otherwise flee to a competing product that I personally don't like/use. This, it seems to me, contributes towards the product's manufacturer continuing to produce and update it which IS a positive benefit to me. I'm not being paid cash - I'm being paid in the slight boost to the likeliness of my chosen product continuing to exist and remain current.
It's worth noting though that providing tools to drive attention to your most vociferous, active and evangelic users can be a double edged sword. Since folks like myself aren't being paid, we have no incentive to be anything other than completely honest in answering support requests.
If your new version is borked; if your long anticipated new feature turns out to be vapor, if your own customer service folks are crap - in short, if those evangelic users get to a point where they feel betrayed by the manufacturer - it's going to be exactly those highly visible, spotlit users with audiences of their own that are going to tell it like it is.
OMG!!! Ponies!!!
Sheesh... I can't imagine people's behavior online seriously being influenced by some silly "rating" system.
Oh, and by the way... copyright is evil, I support socialism, Microsoft sucks, just kidding I support libertarianism, and OMG ponies!
Verizon has a director named Mark Studness and they've got people doing their customer support for free? There's gotta be a catch. I can't take this story at face value.
Support the 30 Hour Work Week!!!
How fortunate that corporate America has found people who'll work for free. Just in time for the down economy. You'd think they at least barter services to these guys.
Remember the story in The Onion about the company's razor having five (or 6) blades? This is almost analogous.
When India finds out their rates are being undercut by the locals HERE, they might say, "For free, eh? As in zip? Well, we'll take care of that! How about paying us negative!? That's right! NEGATIVE"
"Oh wait, that means we end up paying the US to hire us..."
Come on, what's so bad in helping others if you have knowledge and, most important, time? That's how a society works, people help people. Sure, there will be some random asshole now and then who'll exploit others willingness to help, but that still doesn't mean that helping others is a bad thing.
You can't defy help only for questionable job security nor can you rely only on the money to build a society upon -- at the end of the day everyone might need some help.
One cannot compare paid support to enthusiasts directly -- the latter often provide better help and insights but may refuse to help you at all if you can't behave yourself or if you demand help in a rude way. Thumbs rule is the same as with Linux forums/mailing lists -- do at least basic search before you start asking and think before you write. Enthusiasts love to solve problems, but they hate repeating the same shit over and over.
As for creating a community -- the company has to be either very open or extremely popular.
P.S. I don't repair neighbours/friends Windows PC's too, not even if they offer me to pay for it -- it's the same boring routine over and over. I do offer Linux installation and support for no charge case they want to check it out.
In short, I think that there will always be a market for dedicated, paid support teams, especially for internal support scenarios.
This is like the getsatisfaction mob ... be careful where this leads.
GETSATISFACTION.COM portends to be a "an enthusiast/fan driven customer support" but many people think it's the real deal from the real company. I don't want anyone representing my company saying they are me ... period. They can say they are someone else anytime and dispense all the advice they wish. But unless they are approved by me with my training and on my dollar (therefore invested in my well being) ... no thanks!
Look at this:
http://fixyourthinking.com/2009/04/getting-even-with-getsatisfaction.html
"...And for each McMurry out there there is one less paid job at Verizon.
Ha! Are you fucking kidding me?!? One less paid job at Verizon? Yeah, with the amount of jobs they've already outsourced to India, like this is gonna make two shits of a difference with that company. Threaten me with something that hasn't already happened next time.
Hopefully this kind of activity will wake up business owners and show them the value of real customer service, and perhaps rethink that whole outsourcing thing...
Volunteer effort is great. I try to give as much as possible for Wikipedia - hey, it's a hobby. I also do other stuff to help and bring enjoyment for my peers.
But when people start making money on your free effort - indeed, rely you to do your free effort for the continued success of a company, then you're little better than slave (in that you can at least walk away). I mean, I could still see myself giving advice on a forum if I knew how to help, but this.. these guys are actually connected to the company, right?
And 20 hours per week? Even on poor, minimum wage salary (seven dollars an hour?) thats 140 dollars per week, 560 dollars a month. And if he can really give much better experience than the idiots at Verizon, we're talking at least manager level. What's that, double the wage? Triple?
This thing makes me pretty angry. And those people "helping" are real chumps.
Chronologically late.
motivated mainly by a payoff in enjoyment and respect among their peers.
For the summary-writer who drew the "respect amongst peers" conclusion from TFA, there's direct evidence that this is a failed belief included at the end of the summary.
"People seem to like most of what I say online, and I like doing it."
Doing something to be respected suggests that the contributor has some ulterior motive that he or she hopes to attain and this suggests some type of selfish gain (kinda like when Microsoft 'donates' millions of copies of Windows to schools throughout the developing world). On the other hand, doing something because it's enjoyable fits with a sense of fulfillment that is it's own goal. If somebody gets genuine joy answering Verizon customer support questions in their retirement... power to them.
But the key here, I think, is distinguishing the fact that this gentleman is financially well-supported and thus making any personal monetary gain from his activity is trivial. Most people don't have this luxury... and if more did than THIS sort of "benevelent behavior" would be the status quo and wouldn't be worthy of an article of the front page.
Support the 30 Hour Work Week!!!
Open source is different because the result belongs to the people who do the work. If a company profits, for example by selling extended versions or professional support, then it usually also contributes to the community version, so the situation benefits both sides.
People should never support commercial activities without adequate reciprocation.
First off, many times it's not the money but the satisfaction that is the pay off. That, for instance, is why I and others submit code to open source projects. Also consider this person's intentions are the most unbiased available. There are instances in consumer technology where it does not make short term business sense to support the customer. For instance, from a recent slashdot article, DOCSIS 3 is not a cable provider's friend. So why would they put effort in providing support (given they even allow it). Lastly, everyone is hitting the business reset button. Many markets are turning into a commodity market (low mark ups with little, if any, added value). If your company is not in control of it's own market segment (that is, it's in 2nd or worst place), there is little else it can do. Or, maybe not. Maybe this is the pool of talent you've been looking for. Maybe this is the magic bullet.
>Same with friends or neighbours. I'll fix their
>PC, but only if they pay me.
Have you got a lot of friends ?
Because you're protecting Verizon from the flaws in their system.
What is supposed to happen, is that their customers don't get good service. Then Verizon either fixes the problem, or the customers go somewhere else.
But if you leap into that process and start helping out for free, then Verizon never changes.
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
The real news here is companies managed to understand the power of online communities 15 years late. If OSS is just "a case study", then it didn't teach them *anything*.
1) Become big company by ignoring customer needs.
2) Astroturf phony rewards system and acolytes.
3) Advertise on Slashdot to under-appreciated geeks.
4) Profits pass to shareholders!
This is the product of their own massive failure. They have abused their customer service and tech support people for years and caused massive turnover and burnout in their domestic staff and then completely forsake them and give them to foreign offices that make the tech support problem for their customers worse. Even more, some companies actually want their tech support and CSRs to fail, not giving them the tools or the information they need to provide good service so the bigwigs can do a CYA move when something goes wrong (I have been in this situation personally!)
The fact that their customers have to go to unpaid outsiders in order to get anything to work is shameful and they shouldn't be bragging about it. Give good wages and get good people and make sure their life isn't miserable by providing a good service and giving them the all information and tools they need to provide good service and this sort of thing wouldn't happen.
Not getting paid will suck the day he moves out of Mom's basement
"Have you got a lot of friends ?", April 27, @02:11PM #27728771
Ok, so tell us how many of your 'friends' would stop being your 'friend' if you stopped providing free tech support. What they are saying, when they want you to fix their computer for free - is that your time is worthless !
"Come on, what's so bad in helping others if you have knowledge and, most important, time? That's how a society works, people help people"
Sure people like to help people, so tell us how many of your acquientences would do your taxes, fix your boiler, fix your washing machine and mow the lawn, all for free?
"P.S. I don't repair neighbours/friends Windows PC's too, not even if they offer me to pay for it -- it's the same boring routine over and over. I do offer Linux installation and support for no charge case they want to check it out"
Right, I was not referring to the local LUG users group or the forums. For them it's a mutual exchange of technical advice. What gets me is the gall some people get in assuming I'll fix their PC for free.
A few years ago I was strictly a MSFT admin and wanted to learn linux. I spent all of my free time for 9 months on Ubuntuforums, researching problems for other people and learning linux in the process. My work was noticed and I was promoted to mod after three months. The recognition was appreciated but I couldn't continue at that pace--there are other things to study.
"If you're good at something, never do it for free"
-Joker
How in the hell is racist comments insightful?
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
Isn't this like the Ultima Online volunteer system (counselors, seers, etc) that got them sued eventually?
--- It's not my fault this post looks redundant. I just type too slow.
Maybe the McMurrys of the world should go and take a cruise, or do something else with their time. They should stop providing large corporations with an "alternative" to providing quality tech support. The Verizon's of the world could care less about the end-user's support experience, as long as they are able to "save millions of dollars" (which means they don't have to pay employees to perform a function...which means some poor sap loses their livelihood). I wonder if these same companies place a disclaimer on these "community support sites" that any action taken as a result of support at the site can't be blamed on the company? Hey, free tech support, no accountability...what a deal!!!! It's a brave new world.
"'You have to make an environment that attracts the Justin McMurrys of the world, because that's where the magic happens,' says Mark Studness, director of e-commerce at Verizon."
You've made that environment by making customer "service" so thoroughly useless that your customers are forced to ask unpaid outsiders for help. Congratulations, douchebag.
One morning he was going to respond to call but the tires on his truck were cut.
... they're called chumps.
They're the same people who would debase themselves to the whims of the popular children in school simply for the remote chance of being accepted by them. They put in their hours the same way a World of Warcraft addict will put his in simply to be able to prove to a bunch of people they will never meet that they matter.
Suck at life? Got no friends? Welcome to the internet! We'll slap a badge on your ass and give you a rank and THEN you'll be someone.
Good job Justin! Take food right out of the mouth's of someone's children and that makes you feel good about yourself? Wonderful. God forbid these companies actually pay someone to support their products.
Nerd: Sir, I am afraid you have a case of PEBKAC.
Guy: What? Is that bad?
Nerd: Go take a course and it will get better.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
This year my company froze every (salaried, non-management)worker's pay and stopped contributing to our 401Ks. I was also denied reimbursement for in-city travel expenses and given twice as many users to support and another ten systems. And yeah, I'm looking for another job, but I didn't quit.
I like doing what I do, I like helping people and I like knowing enough about the systems that I can be the 'hero' once in a great while. Would I do it if I wasn't paid? Not full time. Neat even part time. But I would contribute something just because I like to help.
What's the difference between taking on extra work without extra pay in a job and taking it on outside of your job?
Here will be an old abusing of God's patience and the king's English.
These unpaid contributors, it seems, are motivated mainly by a payoff in enjoyment and respect among their peers. 'You have to make an environment that attracts the Justin McMurrys of the world, because that's where the magic happens,' says Mark Studness, director of e-commerce at Verizon.
This is one of those shining examples of a market inefficiency that should be fixed, but which companies like Verizon have a hard time getting smart about. If Justin McMurry is creating wealth for your company, the best long-term profit solution for you, Verizon, is to find a way to get him a piece of the action.
I know, I know, it seems like letting the inefficiency run while it tilts in your favor makes sense. But that is a short term thing. If you don't feed this budding source of wealth, it will not last very long. Somebody is going to pull a GEICO on you; tighten up the cashflow streams, and take guys like Justin away from you.
Don't let that happen. Find a way to help Justin monetize his support. Put up banner ads on the forum and give him the revenue, for example. To paraphrase an old aphorism about customer service, "If you don't take care of your wealth producers, somebody else will."
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
Sheesh... I can't imagine people's behavior online seriously being influenced by some silly "rating" system.
Oh, and by the way...
My head just metasplode!
That's the F/OSS business model.
No way should you ever do this. If it's worth doing then it's worth getting paid for doing it.
Then please explain the success behind FOSS. There are people out there putting in way more then 20 hours a week on FOSS and not getting paid a dime....
Visit the Arcade Restoration Workshop @ http://www.arcaderestoration.com
somebody said karma?
If the company wants to support these free tech support people, they should set up the support forums to make it easy to send rewards to the problem solvers like cash donations, business referrals, or even just thank yous. It would be extra nice if the corporation would also add incentives as well. A karma-type system of points would also help, as it would provide competitiveness and an ongoing work to be proud of. Also, I just had a funny mental image: ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED: Helped 100 People Remove Spyware
Star Army Space Roleplay
I just had to point out that by saying "the local LUG users group" you just said "The local Linux users group users group".
I have a solid enough rep here. Yea, I'm a bit chattery, but under 25 troll posts vs some 500 ModUp ones.
This another facet of the news corps moaning that their journalist can't smash out 5 paragraphs of filler from their files anymore.
The reason why is Nouns.
(Grandpa Simpson) Wwweeey Back in MAAH day when you ran up against some Whippersnapper with a goshdurned fanangled new thingimajig, boy he sure was smart. (/Grandpa Simpson)
But Search+NewbieAnswer will answer the first round of almost anything - say, the difference between Ruby the web platform vs. Ruby the ZBS science fiction radio drama, neither of which is a precious stone.
So now Corps have to pay for real work, and we attempt to rid the world of Eternal September.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
Define free. If I write a program that solves a problem or serves a purpose for me then there's my payment. Others can have it, my goals are acheived and it was worth the time. People who write and support programs they get nothing out of (be it fame or something more tangible) are just as silly as McMurry.
Through it doesn't look like McMurry's efforts are doing anything at all in keeping his internet connection going.
Those mexicans keeps stealing our jobs! Oh, wait, he's not a mexican? Well, I guess that's ok then.
But seriously, if you're going to volunteer, why the fuck would you do it for a huge for-profit corporation that doesn't need the help & has the capacity to pay its workers?
Im not sure thats the reason for the economic crisis, but thats an interesting theory.
This is a great point. And if people *enjoy* giving free tech support, why try to stop them? Don't any of you enjoy answering questions on Stackoverflow?
All the comments about "don't give free labor to a company" make sense if you have a beef against that company. And of course if you don't want to work for free, you don't have to.
But I don't see how you can be offended that others want to volunteer. Unless that somehow becomes the expected way to get a job interview for tech support. Then it's exploitative.
People who write and support programs they get nothing out of (be it fame or something more tangible) are just as silly as McMurry.
Yes, simple personal satisfaction is so overrated. Imagine that, people who can feel good by simply helping other people. If there isn't a DSM-IV classification for that, let's hope there will be one in DSM-V. What this world urgently needs is a healthy dose of selfish pricks, because today's society is really starting to feel like Hippie in the Land of the Flying Rainbow Unicorn Ponies.
Donate free food here
I've run dance club events and people spend hours handing out fliers for no more than no cover. They do it because they want to be seen as part of the "in" crowd.
Hell, I've had DJs volunteer to spin just to get exposure.
This seems like the kind of the same thing... It's sorta social, demented and sad, but social.
I actually see both your point and the GP point. I'm with you as long as someone else isn't making money off my free labor. If they make more money because of my work, then it stands to reason that I ought to also. I'm happy helping people with free products because no one else is making money from my labor.
When the axe came to the forest, the trees said, "Look out - the handle was once one of us."
Being helpful is not the issue, it is always good to help others out of selflessness. However, the issue here is that a Company can save money by having crappy tech support, that s what really makes things suffer. Not that someone gives their time to assist others.
No way should you ever do this. If it's worth doing then it's worth getting paid for doing it. And for each McMurry out there there is one less paid job at Verizon.
Exactly! I've heard there are even idiots who will write and support entire computer programs for free! No wonder we're in an economic crisis...
Linus Torvalds got people to help him with Linux because they wanted a Unix of their own, more or less. That's a rational reason for a productive use of time. This fool in the article is just working for a corporation for free. There is a difference.
You do bring up an interesting point though. Some companies both mocked and admired IBM for convincing legions of Linux coders to essentially write code for IBM, gratis. "Free as in working for IBM without getting paid" was the refrain. And they had a point. At what point does this stuff go from being a public good to simple exploitation?
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
Microsoft takes advantage of this, but awards the best helpers as MVPs and gives them a certain level of benefits (some $$ to spend on MS stuff, a conference, advance software, etc).
It seems like a decent trade, especially as people in the field can often better answer questions than people at MS that don't really use the end product in a real environment.
So how long before this runs afoul of some law or politician looking for revenue.
Obviously the time has value, as such it helps a company, as such profits should therefor increase along with.... taxes
So didn't AOL get whacked for using volunteers? Especially when some wanted something after all those years?
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
But if you're going to spend a lot of time helping a company unpaid, why the fuck would you do it for Verizon?
I mean, that's like giving something for free to Microsoft, or Enron, or Monsanto. You can be sure as hell they aren't going to give you something for free.
That's a rational reason for a productive use of time. This fool in the article is just working for a corporation for free. There is a difference.
He's working for other users for free, and enjoying it. Sure, it also benefits a corporation, but so what? I really don't see what's so foolish about it. What is wrong with doing something you like, purely for fun/gratification, and not fretting about whether it may benefit someone else as well (financially or otherwise)?
Donate free food here
I bet children of the support staff replaced by Mr. McMurry and his ilk are especially grateful to him; now their parents are at home more. That's especially important when they have to explain to the little ones why they're only getting fed a couple of times a day, and they shouldn't expect new clothes any time soon.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
Volunteers are pretty common in online discussion groups. However you need a mechanism for culling those who become dictatorial.
In Soviet Russia, commercial activities support you!
What I really don't like about this is that Verison is depending on knowledgeable people like McMurry to save them millions of dollars in support instead of actually providing the tech support that the users are paying for, especially at the kind of rates we pay in the USA for internet access. They don't want to spend money to improve bandwidth or to provide good tech support. The poor, locked-in user (since many areas only have one broadband service provider) is lucky to get the help from knowledgeable people on forums because the (often overseas) tech support script readers and no help at all.
I think GP was more aiming at the "don't sell software, sell services and support" thing.
Difficult to 'sell support' if your enthusiastic users are providing it for free to the other users.
Unless, of course, your project's big, popular even with corporations, etc. Then you can sell because a manager will throw money at you rather than have his underlings 'waste time' trolling forums for the exact same answers;
http://www.ubuntu.com/support/paid
What a bunch of saps!
Instead of free work for a multi-billion dollar market capped Telco, these people should be helping one of the thousands of small non-profit organizations improve their IT infrastructure.
I run into non-profits every day that are using 10-year-old castoff hardware and software with networks put together with chewing gum & sheer will.
If all of us in IT devoted a couple of hours a week to our local non-profits, these agencies could be more productive and provide better service to their missions. That'll get you respect from your peers, your community and Karma.
Verizon can afford to pay tech support a fair wage. They don't need charity from anybody.
"The NY Times writes about Justin McMurry of Keller, TX, who spends up to 20 unpaid hours per week helping Verizon customers" No way should you ever do this. If it's worth doing then it's worth getting paid for doing it. And for each McMurry out there there is one less paid job at Verizon. Same with friends or neighbours. I'll fix their PC, but only if they pay me.
With me this varies with mileage. Good friend or close family, free for minor stuff and i get to it when i can, they rush me or major repairs i'm gonna charge them something not too bad. Associate or distant relative, you're getting charged my normal rate, which still is pretty good but varies with the task of course.
This would be really great for my company.
The only problem there is with this idea is that when people feel passionate about a company or community that they belong to, they start to drink the kool aid.
Have you ever read the tech support forum for any games publisher/producer? I'll use World of Warcraft as an example:
Whenever a patch has been posted thats introduced problems, until its officially recognized, people posting about the problem will get a slew of replies that are along the lines of 'Its fine for me, therefore it must be your computer' and refuse to acknowledge that there might be any kind of actual problem with the patch.
My local computer parts supplier has a customer forum and I've run into similar things there, they were selling systems that were very well specced except for the PSUs which were woefully inadequate for any modern video card (They supplied 300w PSUs with their otherwise cutting edge systems) and when someone pointed out it was a shame there wasn't a option to customize what PSU was provided, rather than people agreeing, instead they got several hostile replies on how any idiot could replace a power supply and what did they expect for the price etc and generally praising the company while berating the poster.
It's fantastic people want to be involved and even volunteer their time but it does seem to ultimately lead to bit of a echo chamber and cheer leading.
1. Do user support for free
2. Go on welfare (US)
3. Family still lives at mission
So you create an environment of such bad customer service that you basically require the charity of others to operate, and you call that "magic"?
I know people are going to try to compare the volunteer efforts of these folks to open source, but it's not the same. With open source, you're actually creating something, not propping up and enabling the bad practices of a corporation. It's the difference between giving a man a fish and giving him a fishing pole: if there's no goal of fixing the underlying problem then the charity can be worse than not helping at all.
tech support script readers
I'm not American, but why not just put the scripts online? I mean, you can have problems without your net being totally unusable. The customers can read themselves, they don't need people in India to do so for them. Heck, Verizon might put the scripts online EVEN FOR PROBLEMS WHEN THEY CAN'T GET ONLINE. That would be great and really Kafka. I love it already.
Chronologically late.
It's the linux community for phones.
"Our goal each year should be to increase the number of goals we set for ourselves!"
What is wrong with [...] not fretting about whether it may benefit someone else as well (financially or otherwise)?
It puts economic power into the hands of exploitative people. There's nothing wrong with mutually beneficial relationships between individuals and businesses, but when businesses achieve direct economic advantages from free labor (i.e. without giving something back), then other businesses, who acknowledge the value of support and pay the people who support their product, are at a disadvantage.
What is wrong with [...] not fretting about whether it may benefit someone else as well (financially or otherwise)?
It puts economic power into the hands of exploitative people.
I really don't see any exploiting in this situation (in the pejorative sense).
There's nothing wrong with mutually beneficial relationships between individuals and businesses, but when businesses achieve direct economic advantages from free labor (i.e. without giving something back), then other businesses, who acknowledge the value of support and pay the people who support their product, are at a disadvantage.
If you really can't think outside such a narrow economic box, then consider this simply as another way in which corporations should try to get people to like them that much that they are willing to spend their time "for free" on supporting their products (feel free to ponder whether in that case it is still really for free, since the company may then have invested in getting those people to do that).
Donate free food here
I'm not picking on Slashdot here...
I'm picking on the originator of this "news" story.
Yahoo Answers.
http://answers.yahoo.com/
And that is just one. Granted, it's been around for a while... but there is Tech support there, and it is all provided freely. No one is getting paid for the help they give out.
So either the author of this one has been very ignorant of what has been out there for this kind of support, and been ignorant for years... or people are just stupid, regardless of the position they hold in life.
"I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." -D. Adams
Talk about whoring yourself out...
Microsoft has it's Most Valued Professional program. I'm one of them (System Center Operations Manager). It's actually a pretty good deal - probably better then most of the other programs out there.
They bring you out once a year for a week long summit (Pay your own way there, lodging and food taken care of by MS), you get cutting edge information in the product you are MVP for, and you get a comped MSDN + TechNet sub (That even their employees don't get). Add on top of that a few hundred dollars in credit to the MS company store and a few thousand dollars in free software from other companies and it's awesome.
Bad mouth MS all you want, but they do take care of their MVPs - and all you have to do is blog/respond on the newsgroups.
Looking for hardware (Currently need: Large Etch-a-Sketch) Have one? See my journal!
Replace "Verizon" with "Red Hat" or "Canonical" (or maybe... "Apple"?) in the above paragraph and try to anticipate the responses...
I'm not saying I'd personally go out of my way to provide tech support for a big company, but there's an awful lot of vitriol here for folks *volunteering* their time doing something *they like*
If you don't like the company whose products they are helping with, that's fine and dandy, but that doesn't make them suckers. It's helping a community for the sake of the community. Surely there's a popular idea like that around here somewhere...
Perhaps exploiting is too big a word. How's "taking advantage"? It's like the fence-painting episode from the Adventures of Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn. Is it wrong to make other people do your chores if you can make them believe that it is you who is doing them a favor?
We can probably agree that Verizon is not the kind of company which people like so much that they want to help out for free.
No way should you ever do this. If it's worth doing then it's worth getting paid for doing it. And for each McMurry out there there is one less paid job at Verizon.
Exactly! I've heard there are even idiots who will write and support entire computer programs for free! No wonder we're in an economic crisis...
Exactly! These guys are literally stealing food from the mouths of Indians to whom these jobs could have been outsourced!
Stop! Dremel time!
I used to reward myself with a "support copy" of Windows for helping family and friends. Now the those "support copies" dried up, not so much any more. One way or another everyone always gets paid.
They can have my command prompt when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.
I would trust someone more who rather answer my questions for free out of excitement rather than some teen getting minimum wage and hating his job.
That still doesn't take away from the fact they're complete suckers for doing it.
What an asshat. I threw up in my mouth a little when I read that. I can just see this guy thinking to himself "hah, he's doing platinum level support that we don't have to pay for!" Cue money signs in his eyes and a *ka-ching ka-ching* noise in the background.
in girum imus nocte et consumimur igni
I was - and I am - the "tech support" person that my family, relatives and friends often ask for assistance - we've all been there. However, what cured me of this was realizing how much shit I'll have to endure. People make stupid choices, and then insist that someone should - unpaid - correct their problems for them. Trying to explain something in proper detail will get you nowhere. At best, you'll correct the problem by saying "take it to the computer repair shop", as in the case of obvious motherboard/hardware faults. At worst, you'll get an earful. My current attitude is saying at most 2-3 sentences and then letting things go their natural ways. What I'm trying to say is that there is a difference between being the responsible customer support person, vs. some guy who gives advice because the problem is dead obvious. It is best not to even think of being the former.
Free software is like the latter: there is no monetary incentive to code, but also there is no monetary incentive to make any profit with the code either. A free software coder isn't "criminally" responsible for quality. Rather, what powers him is something much more powerful: self-esteem.
Don't forget what I find the important part you're leaving out. I might receive back a better program than I let out, whether that is bug fixes, more features, faster, etc. Thats the real benefit I see.
In other words, they invented "Ask Slashdot"?
It will "transform the field" alright! For instance, whenever anybody asks me how to fix their Verizon internet service, I suggest switching to another company that isn't so remotely incompetent...
It would be even worse for cell phone companies... How many people are going to be told that AT&T is vastly overcharging them, and switching can save them 50% of their money?
Companies PAY for support people for what they DON'T SAY, as much as for what they do.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
"Same with friends or neighbours. I'll fix their PC, but only if they pay me."
I am happy to fix PCs for my friends and neighbors without expecting compensation because I know there will be a point sometime in the future where I will need to call on them to help me.
There is nobody more devoted than a volunteer. Sadly the volunteer spirit has slowed in recent years. My fiance and I are teaching the values of sharing and volunteering to her 8yo daughter and we plan to do the same with our next child.
Who was that pointy-eared bastard?
I find this article hilarious. It's written like this is a brand spanking new idea. Hello? Does anyone remember CompuServe? Companies that have had a clue have been doing this for years and most have some sort of enthusiast program. Someone should tell these folks that the US finally landed a man on the moon and that Kennedy was shot.
How in the hell is racist comments insightful?
How in the hell is calling STUDness a porn name racist?
is like jerking off to a magazine and thinking you had sex with a supermodel. you are a moron.
what?
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
There's some stellar examples of AT&T employees (formerly SBC, formerly Pacific Bell) at the dslreports.com site. The "SBC Direct" forum is for bypassing tech support and speaking directly to somebody who knows what they are doing.
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/sbcdirect
Also, for Comcast, there's "comcastcares" on Twitter. There was a recent article written about this person recently.
http://twitter.com/comcastcares
http://www.businessweek.com/managing/content/jan2009/ca20090113_373506.htm
Very nice! Both of these have saved me a lot of time, trying to fight my way through a large corporation, trying to reach a person who had both the knowledge and the power to fix the situations I found myself in.
Dr. Demento On The 'Net!
1. Have service so pitiful, your customers have to support themselves
2. ???
3. Profit!!
Then brag about your mad PHB skills!
Only in Corporate America...*sigh*
Why these customers are not getting their torches and pitchforks and mobbing them, is beyond me.
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
> how about we demand a little evenhandedness from them and demand they somehow ___remunerate___
There's a problem here. Remuneration = payment = employment = demands = rights. Slippery slope they don't want to climb.
Your comment has me thinking: What if I did the gratis support for my ego gratification and, or sound mind/body regimen but I was acerbic in commentary or review?! A la David Letterman and his ex General Electric bosses.
Would that be the way to go? That's how I'd go. ``Spit then rotate the doohickey on the turbo widget and bam! that piece of shit from Acme will work. Cheap bastards. I love my hellacious karma, though.''
transform the field of customer service. Such enthusiasts
:)
These people - meaning the guy talking there - are really this dumb, or are they? Tech forums, irc channels, etc. around the world have been always swarming with higher-than-average knowledgeable users who are willing to help others, since I can remember, from day one of internet connectivity. Now we have newspeak for this too, enthusiasts giving free customer service
Get a clue, people. It would be better if they'd recognize already, that people seek advice in such places because company customer services have always been s*cking, and big time.(*)
(*) as a recent example, me solving a problem for someone in around 5 minutes, after she spent countless hours during 4 days on the phone and online with different customer service people; you all know the drill
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
Noobs, if they had any skills they would get them to pay 10% to help out in the interest of the Company... oops I mean Church. (Sorry just read Foundation again last week)
The article quotes Mark Studness from Verizon.
Mark Studness ?? !!
"Is someone playing silly buggers here?"
-- Archchancellor Ridcully
like "inmyname" on youtube?
Cisco consumed Linksys, continuing the grand tradition of the larger corporation swallowing the smaller, more nimble one in order to eliminate the threat the latter's better, smaller, faster, and cheaper [whatever hardware/software] and superior customer service posed.
Of course, I still mourn for DEC...
Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
the concept is nice
The first time those "free" helper do a critical mistake and a class action follows, companies won't be able to claim that they are not responsible. They have admitted publicly pushing for unqualified, unpaid support. All those idiotic saving will go straight down the drain.
Business as usual. Remember: you get what you pay.
In other news. It is true that linksys hardwares have very poor firmwares. I had to return 3 of their routers because the required firmware updates blew them into useless junks. I had to return 2 others from friends and one new ( 3 weeks old ) is showing the same symptoms: disconnect from the internet after a certain amount of traffic. ( read time ) A simple Massive Multiplayer Online Game can pump that amount in less than an hour.
This is a firmware issue that has been around for years. Cisco quality? No. Period.
Experts Exchange has been doing this for years.
Users can post questions and (super-)users can post answers.
The Superusers earn points by answering hard questions and points get you a free premium membership.
I used to hang there for years, until they started asking money for premium services.
I still highly recommend it to small businesses. One membership can save piles of consulting fees.
"I was in love with a beautiful blonde once, dear. She drove me to drink. It's the one thing I am indebted to her for."
>Ok, so tell us how many of your 'friends' would stop being your 'friend' if you stopped providing free tech support.
None, to my knowledge. I don't have friends who call me only if they have problems with their PCs, there are always more shared values and interests behind such a relationship.
>Sure people like to help people, so tell us how many of your acquientences would do your taxes, fix your boiler, fix your washing machine and mow the lawn, all for free?
Some friends of mine have helped me with moving recently, and one of them even provided space in his basement for some boxes that I took to my new place some time later. Sure, I could hire a service for it and rent some place at a warehouse (and if I follow your logic, I *should* do this), but friends have agreed to help. And we've spent the whole Saturday moving my stuff around. ;) ) who may give me some basic legal advice. On the other hand, they may not. I may ask for help, but I'll never demand it.
I have some acquaintances (