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Video Game Adaptation In the Works For A Song of Fire and Ice

Posted by Soulskill on from the goons-everywhere-rejoice dept.

On Wednesday, French game development studio Cyanide announced that they will be working with George R. R. Martin to bring his popular fantasy series, A Song of Fire and Ice, to the realm of video games. The press release implies that there will be more than one game, and the games will come out for PCs and "next-gen consoles." Apparently an HBO television series is in the works as well, in addition to board and card games related to the books.

183 comments

  1. Oh god by malkir · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The only reason they picked this story was for the detailed sex scenes, the books *are* pretty awesome though.

  2. You mean "A Song of Ice and Fire", right? by The_mad_linguist · · Score: 4, Funny

    Or is this one of those Chinese knockoffs, like "backstroke of the west" or "Harry potter and the big Funnel"?

    1. Re:You mean "A Song of Ice and Fire", right? by je+ne+sais+quoi · · Score: 1

      At first I thought it was this movie (soundtrack here), and I thought, wow a video game about an 80s ski movie with break dancing. That would be funny in a kitschy sort of way -- I can see it now, EA sports presents Fire and Ice, win races and get your character's hair perm to twice as frizzy, or add some new break dancing moves to your characters repertoire.

      --
      Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the war room!
  3. I would prefer... by Choozy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... if George R.R. Martin would just finish writing the damn series!!!

    1. Re:I would prefer... by Swizec · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ... if George R.R. Martin would just finish writing the damn series!!!

      and artists would prefer if fans stopped thinking of them as their bitches.

      But that's not very likely is it?

    2. Re:I would prefer... by Kranerian · · Score: 5, Funny

      How do you think us Wheel of Time fans feel?

      --
      Do you have any idea how long it takes to dig graves for twenty-three oak trees?
    3. Re:I would prefer... by fractoid · · Score: 1

      As long as he doesn't DIE before finishing it... I'm still wary of getting into another huge fantasy series, thanks R.J.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    4. Re:I would prefer... by Jurily · · Score: 1

      ... if George R.R. Martin would just finish writing the damn series!!!

      Are you sure you'd be happy with it if it came prematurely? Mostly Harmless comes to mind. Summary: Random chaotic shit, and everyone dies at the end.

    5. Re:I would prefer... by VShael · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "How do you think us Wheel of Time fans feel?"

      After book 6 or 7, I didn't think there was any fans left.

    6. Re:I would prefer... by tritonman · · Score: 5, Informative

      Well, he made a promise... At the end of his previous book he said that most of the work for the next book was already finished and he was splitting it into two books. He said that IT WILL BE PUBLISHED NEXT YEAR! This was in 2005. Ok just 4 years later and still nothing, it probably won't come out this year either!

    7. Re:I would prefer... by jurgenaut · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I would prefer it if he decided to start the main story.
      So far, all the books written have served only to introduce us to the setting, with a vague hint of "winter is coming". We cannot actually say whether the winter is the main plot line or not.
      It's like a soap opera. There's nothing happening, except characters acting and reacting. No one is accelerating the main plot (because we dont know which plot that is).
      Tolkien said very early on, "here's a ring, the story will concern its destruction". David Eddings - evil god does bad things, here's a story about his demise.
      And when we read those books, we form expectations about what is going to happen, and we start to trust the author when that happens. That's an important connection between author and reader.
      Song of ice and fire, well, anything can happen. Hell, the bad guy in book X is the good guy in book X+2. I respect Martin because he can pull it off.
      I do, however, not trust him to take sufficient care of the characters I enjoy the most - he's proven he has no qualms about killing them off (or leaving them out entirely from a book), then resurrecting them and making them evil. And then the 3 year cliffhangers...

    8. Re:I would prefer... by Swizec · · Score: 1

      He made this promise or his manager/publisher made this promise? Crucial difference.

    9. Re:I would prefer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      He made the promise. It's in the foreward or something to Feast for Crows.

      Most people would not be pissed if he hadn't been stringing everybody along. It's not "fans think of him as their bitch", it's "he promised to have it out and then sat around jerking off for four years watching football".

    10. Re:I would prefer... by anarche · · Score: 1

      it's "he promised to have it out and then sat around jerking off for four years watching football".

      Like you wouldn't do that if you had the chance!

      Serious though, aside from the sex scenes, the sheer bloodthirstiness of this series makes it a great choice for a gaming series..

      --
      Wait! Whats a sig?
    11. Re:I would prefer... by geminidomino · · Score: 2, Funny

      ... if George R.R. Martin would just finish writing the damn series!!!

      Are you sure you'd be happy with it if it came prematurely? Mostly Harmless comes to mind. Summary: Random chaotic shit, and everyone dies at the end.

      HEY! Spoiler-tags motherfucker! ;)

    12. Re:I would prefer... by whisper_jeff · · Score: 1

      Neil Gaiman says it best.

    13. Re:I would prefer... by jefu · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think Martin's fans (and I'm one) have been fairly patient overall. It is a huge (and wonderful) work and certainly requires a lot of time to make it as good as it is. It's not like he came to my house and signed a contract with me to finish at any particular time. On the other hand, starting a series like this does seem to make a kind of promise to the readers that it will (at least eventually) be finished.

      Where people lose patience is when it seems that lots of other things (calendars, figurines, tv series, games....) are taking up more of Martin's time than the books, and when those fans care about the books and not about the tchotchkes they (the fans, not the tchotchkes) - however selfishly and unrealistically - feel slighted and cranky.

    14. Re:I would prefer... by LanMan04 · · Score: 1

      They are our bitches. Without readership they make no money. End of story.

      --
      With the first link, the chain is forged.
    15. Re:I would prefer... by hansamurai · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Dude, the story is the characters. It really is a fantasy based soap opera where all the excitement is the interaction between characters and you wondering whether your favorite will die on the next page or not.

      If you really want a main plot, Daenerys (sp?) is going to come overseas with a huge army and then confront The Song of Ice and Fire (aka a main character in the books that I won't spoil), and either they fall in love or kill each other, or both. Everything else is just more reasons for more character interaction, in my opinion.

      --
      Reviewing just the first hour of video games.
    16. Re:I would prefer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hardly thinking of the man as our bitch - As much as he has invested time and effort into creating the series, I have invested time and effort myself in a series and enjoy the complexities that he has woven into it. Basically, don't make a promise to deliver more and then hold off for close to four years - and release a whole bunch of other material instead.

      He has me hooked, keep it coming.

    17. Re:I would prefer... by Swizec · · Score: 1

      They are our bitches. Without readership they make no money. End of story.

      You need to start perusing some real art, this pop culture crap seems to be rotting your brain away.

    18. Re:I would prefer... by hansamurai · · Score: 1

      George R. R. Martin's response to you.

      --
      Reviewing just the first hour of video games.
    19. Re:I would prefer... by durrr · · Score: 1

      It's a selling point, we've all seen/read about supporting characters, main characters and everyone else dying.

      But when did you last read something where even the author dies before the grand climax?

    20. Re:I would prefer... by cthulu_mt · · Score: 1

      Summary: Random chaotic shit

      I think that's the summary for the entire series.

      --
      Virginia is for lovers. EVE is for griefers.
    21. Re:I would prefer... by kakrofoon · · Score: 1

      Like any other performer, they become our bitches when they enter the limelight. You don't want to deal with fans, don't generate a fan-base.

    22. Re:I would prefer... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      He made this promise or his manager/publisher made this promise? Crucial difference.

      Not when his name's on the book. His name was used to promote the promise. If he doesn't like it, he should work with a publisher who doesn't tell lies in his name. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    23. Re:I would prefer... by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Funny

      But when did you last read something where even the author dies before the grand climax?

      I don't know, but Atlas Shrugged was clearly an attempt to kill the reader.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    24. Re:I would prefer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do, however, not trust him to take sufficient care of the characters I enjoy the most - he's proven he has no qualms about killing them off (or leaving them out entirely from a book), then resurrecting them and making them evil.

      Hell that's why I like Martin and not the other crappy fantasy writers.
      He isn't the kind of author who falls in love with his characters and makes sure they always stay out of trouble.
      In those books, there is no fucking "unseen hand" protecting the heroes (or recurrent vilains). *Anything* can happen to them. If they make a mistake, or just are at the wrong place at the wrong time, they die. That's it, the end. No reloading, no divine intervention.

    25. Re:I would prefer... by Minwee · · Score: 4, Informative

      You may want to read Neil Gaiman's comments on the issue, as it seems the grandparent poster has.

      Although I think that R. K. Milholland's take on a similar issue is right on target too.

    26. Re:I would prefer... by Jurily · · Score: 1

      I think that's the summary for the entire series.

      That would be random chaotic funny and entertaining shit.

    27. Re:I would prefer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a debate I've had with a few of my friends. George RR Martin has started a wonderful series. Since then, he has spent time on card games, board games, video games, a children's book, a TV adaptation, several anthologies, and more conventions than you can shake a stick at.

      Does he have the right to do all of this? Of course. But it really does seem to me to be bad form. I mean, it seems to me that the relationship between writer and reader is a bit of a two way street. He is selling his material and that also makes me a customer. If you publish stories with no ending with the strong implication that you will in fact write an ending at some point, it doesn't seem unreasonable for fans to expect you to actually follow through.

      As far as the artist claim is concerned. This is a commercial product and again, to me that implies some commitment on the author's part to deliver a finished product. If this is pure art, then I would take the position that art is meant to be viewed and admired however possible, Pirate Bay style for myself. I do not believe this is a work of pure art. I believe that Martin has every right to be paid for his work. But don't act like he doesn't owe the fans anything. His work is by design unfinished and he should make a better effort to finish it.

    28. Re:I would prefer... by HaZardman27 · · Score: 1

      Last I heard the next book is coming out in 2010. The last "official" release date was while I was in basic training this last fall. Needless to say, I was very disappointed when I graduated and found out I would NOT in fact be reading it any time soon. This next book HAS to be good; most of the best characters were left out in the last book, so now it's time for their stories again.

      --
      Apparently wizard is not a legitimate career path, so I chose programmer instead.
    29. Re:I would prefer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just stop buying the books until he completes it. Seriously. The only reason he can sit around and watch football for 5 years is because slobbering fans will buy the next installment no matter when he puts it out.
      I too stopped Wheel of Time at book 7 promising myself I wouldnt read anymore until he completed. A decision Im most pleased with.

    30. Re:I would prefer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I partially agree with you, however I would say that the first two books very much pushed the story quickly and with a lot of action. That's what got me hooked on the series. Then the story started slowing down while he's focused on bouncing around to every character ever mentioned in the series and glazing over action sections by describing them in the past tense after they had happened.

      He's pulling the same thing Jordan did starting with the Wheel of Times 6th book (can't remember the name). That's when I stopped reading Wheel of Time.

    31. Re:I would prefer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Neil Gaiman says it best.

      He concludes, "George R. R. Martin is not working for you."

      I hate to be cliche, but, Orly? I seem to remember paying for those books.

    32. Re:I would prefer... by Reapy · · Score: 1

      The biggest offence he commited in my mind was writing feast for crows :( Gah. The first 3 books remain my favorate of all time, and this is after having read a ton of other fantasy books. I think he was on the right path, but in that 4 year wait he got big, and probably got leeway from editors, and decided to split the book off into the next 2 books, feast and dance. What a mistake, feast sucked so hard, and to have waited 4 years for it, that bastard.

      But really, he's only a bastard cause the first 3 were so fantastic and I want mooore :(

    33. Re:I would prefer... by m1k3y121 · · Score: 1

      thank you for linking that...i was going to have to after reading all the QQ going on here...jesus, let the man do his thing.

    34. Re:I would prefer... by ageoffri · · Score: 1

      No doubt. I see this as yet another side project that will further delay the books. I haven't even read the last one yet, even though I bought it the first week it was out.

      --
      -- Slashdot, making the Left look conservative since 1997.
    35. Re:I would prefer... by m1k3y121 · · Score: 1

      ^^ agreed. I tried, I did, but after book 5 when the series still didnt look like it was going anywhere, as much as I may have liked some of the character ideas and such, I had to put it down.

    36. Re:I would prefer... by mooingyak · · Score: 1

      I do, however, not trust him to take sufficient care of the characters I enjoy the most - he's proven he has no qualms about killing them off (or leaving them out entirely from a book), then resurrecting them and making them evil.

      I however trust him to kill off major characters or have them react very badly to the overwhelming hardships they've suffered. Part of the charm of that is there are no scenes where you feel absolutely certain the character you're reading about is going to survive. Keeps it genuinely suspenseful.

      --
      William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
    37. Re:I would prefer... by MarkLR · · Score: 1

      From Gaiman's posting:

      >George R. R. Martin is not working for you.

      Yes, but the publisher basically is. Unless they start publishing books 1-4 with a warning label, "This series is unfinished, and may never be completed" any new readers have right to complain.

    38. Re:I would prefer... by Tim12s · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It is a fantastic retelling of "War of the Roses". England, 1455. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_of_the_Roses

      Like any biography or true story there is usually no single grand ending because it is based on historic events that is based upon the rise and fall of many different characters. Each character has a story and we are taken through this by the author.

    39. Re:I would prefer... by kalirion · · Score: 1

      Hey, 6 was good, and 9 was awesome. 7 was forgettable. 8 & 10 do not exist. I heard 11 was excellent, but I'm going to wait for Sanderson to finish the series.

    40. Re:I would prefer... by DrWho520 · · Score: 1

      If you go to his website, he has a large number of awesome reading selections to tide you over until Winter comes. I would also recommend trying out the Wildcards collection for something completely different.

      --
      The cancel button is your friend. Do not hesitate to use it.
    41. Re:I would prefer... by DrWho520 · · Score: 1

      Does kakro = buf?

      --
      The cancel button is your friend. Do not hesitate to use it.
    42. Re:I would prefer... by frenchgates · · Score: 1

      What, you don't want slow moving scenes about Hot Pie and Lommie Greenhands?

      I hear they're going to open a restaurant in the new one!

      --
      Syntax error: loose != lose, affect != effect, then!=than
    43. Re:I would prefer... by Minwee · · Score: 1

      Unless they start publishing books 1-4 with a warning label, "This series is unfinished, and may never be completed" any new readers have right to complain.

      If you can't figure out by looking at the cover, or at least the first three pages of a book that it is part of a series, and are also unable to locate other books by the same author and determine by looking at them whether or not the in fact exist, then maybe the act of reading may be a bit too challenging.

      The fact that books do not carry warning labels like "This product requires basic literacy skills" and "Not for use as a personal lubricant" does not give readers any right to complain either. That just means that the publishers have certain, hopefully realistic expectations regarding the mental capabilities of their customers.

    44. Re:I would prefer... by Gulthek · · Score: 1

      Whoa there, Cat was pretty twisted from the start. Blame her Whent ancestry.

    45. Re:I would prefer... by sapphire+wyvern · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The killing off of major characters and showing the more noble side of previously loathed villains is an interesting subversion of the usual predictable fantasy tropes. I think that's part of its appeal to me - it reads more like a history, and less like another iteration of the "Monomyth of the Hero". Or at least it would, if our history books and documentaries didn't usually reduce the real world's personalities to fantasy-esque narrative caricatures.

      On the other hand, The Song of Ice & Fire's non-compliance with what Pratchett calls Narrative Causality can certainly put readers off. Personally I just wish the story would continue, and at some point, actually *wrap up*; a story that never ends is just unsatisfying. Also, when you have such a huge, sprawling work with such long gaps between volumes, by the time the next part comes out you have no hope of remembering who most of the characters are or what took place in the earlier books!

    46. Re:I would prefer... by sapphire+wyvern · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes. You paid for those books. That means that George R R Martin worked for you.

      He has no obligation to continue doing so, however.

    47. Re:I would prefer... by VRisaMetaphor · · Score: 1

      I don't understand why people think Feast for Crows sucked. To me, it was just more of the same great stuff.

    48. Re:I would prefer... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I also have no obligation to spend a single dime on anything connected with Martin until I feel like it, and right now I don't feel like it.

      I'm also losing interest in the series over time. It's big and intricate and I've forgotten too many details. If I can't read the new one every couple of years or so, I might as well wait until the series is finished, or Martin's dead (if I outlive him) and pick up the ones I've missed as used paperbacks.

      I admit that I, personally, haven't given him a whole lot of money (probably a few bucks, but I don't know his royalty rates), but if enough people start thinking like I do he may take a noticeable income hit.

      And, in the meantime, I don't really care about the movies, or games, or collectible card games, or the inflatable Daenerys dolls, or whatever.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    49. Re:I would prefer... by parisjackson · · Score: 0

      OH SNAP!

    50. Re:I would prefer... by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Mostly because he split off the "Good" characters into Dance (Jon, Tyrion, etc...) and gave us fucking Brienne of Tarth as a PoV character... WTF?

    51. Re:I would prefer... by DrWho520 · · Score: 1

      How about the ousting and murder of the Targaryen royal family and the rise and return of its last daughter, Daenerys. Lord Robert Baratheon, Lord Eddard Stark and Lord Tywin Lannister, all betrayers to the Royal House, have all died betrayer deaths. Robert is betrayed and poisoned by his cuckolding wife, Eddard is forced to admit treason and is betrayed by his king and Tywin is betrayed and murdered by his sons, Jaime for freeing Tyrion and Tyrion for committing the deed. The question is whether Daenerys will return in time to kill any traitors left at King's Landing and whether she will be in time to save Westeros, for Winter is coming.

      For what it is worth that always struck me as the main story.

      --
      The cancel button is your friend. Do not hesitate to use it.
    52. Re:I would prefer... by spamking · · Score: 1

      Exactly. I may have to go back and read the series again in order to be ready for the next book.

    53. Re:I would prefer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I stayed until book 10 (or whatever)! Then I found that waiting for the next, I'd completely forgotten the 2^17 small plot details in the first 9 books and nothing made any sense. It was almost like "Who is this Rand they keep mentioning? Holy shit, she became Aes Sedai? Wait..."

      I have already re-read through previous volumes multiple times to catch up before reading a new one, and I won't do it again. I don't have those months to invest. Also, I won't wait so long that I forget salient plot points and minor characters. Therefore, the only solution to getting a good coherent read out of EotW is to wait until it's officially finished and read them all at once (at once meaning "however long it takes to read 10000+ pages").

      I think this reason is good enough all by itself to suggest that authors shouldn't delay new volumes in a series too long, ESPECIALLY in series like EotW where the books do not stand alone as stories, they are merely the next page in one big story.

      So this deadly combination should not be perpetrated on us poor readers by authors, bar none. I've ceased caring about EotW. If GRRM doesn't get out the next Song book, I'll eventually cease caring about it. Christ, the first book came out 23 FUCKIN YEARS AGO!!!! 1 book every 6 years? Fuck you George!

    54. Re:I would prefer... by zrelativity · · Score: 1
      This is the precise problem I have with GRRM. If you visit his web site on a regular basis, there are 100+1 things that's keeping him occupied, but we are stilling waiting for the next installment. ... And in my view a story teller and her audience does have an implicit contract, particularly from the story teller's side.

      A while back, Amazon was even taking preorder for Dragons... but that has been removed for a while now, and no sign of it going back up any time soon.

      This is goddamn problem with reading a series, specially if its any good like "Fire and Ice" that you get through half the story, the other half will be rushed or never completed...

    55. Re:I would prefer... by zrelativity · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Honestly, Gaiman's talking crap... "George R.R. Martin is not your bitch."... Well I'm not saying he is. But take that attitude too often with your reader, and you might find you're writing for your self alone. GRRM or Gaiman is not writing just because they like writing. It makes them a very good living.

      Artists or Engineers or any other professional, if you make a commitment to your client or customer, you need to work bloody hard to keep to it. If I as a engineer, make commitments to my customer, and don't deliver or deliver late, I don't expect my customer to support me either when an alternative is present.

    56. Re:I would prefer... by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      Uhh I can't really remember much in the way of sex scenes in this series of books. So either I've been reading a lot of exceptionally graphic books or it's not really remarkable by comparison.

    57. Re:I would prefer... by KhaymanUCSD · · Score: 1

      Yeah, one book every 6 years is going to ensure that this ends up like the Wheel of Time series from Jordan... he's going to kick off before the damn thing is done.

      --
      Kneel before Sig!
    58. Re:I would prefer... by 2short · · Score: 1

      He has repeatedly offered assurances the next book was almost done.

      The problem appears to be that he really likes planning out plots. He came up with a nice tight plot outline for a trilogy, but as he was writing it, he's not interested in just going through with his original plan. So for every book he writes, the projected length of the series gets 2 books longer.

      Whatever. What might have been an iconic pillar of modern fantasy will not be because he'll with it unfinished. It's his own art that is damaged by his failure, and you quite rightly point out Martin doesn't owe us anything. He promised some stuff, but it wasn't written in blood or anything, and nobody paying attention has believed him for a while.

      It is unreasonable for fans to think Martin owes them something. It is not unreasonable for them to be disappointed, nor for them to tell him where he can stick his umpteenth tie-in product.

    59. Re:I would prefer... by 2short · · Score: 1

      "On the other hand, starting a series like this does seem to make a kind of promise to the readers that it will (at least eventually) be finished."

      It will never be finished. Look at the projected length of the series when each book was published: it has grown by 2 books every single time. It has never gotten as close to finished as it was when he hadn't started yet.

    60. Re:I would prefer... by 2short · · Score: 1

      "Are you sure you'd be happy with it if it came prematurely?"

      Not possible. We've reached and passed the time where it should have ended.

    61. Re:I would prefer... by VRisaMetaphor · · Score: 1

      I'm curious to know why you think Brienne is not a "good" character? I find her just as interesting and her story just as compelling as any other character in the series.

    62. Re:I would prefer... by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      I find her just as interesting and her story just as compelling as any other character in the series.

      I don't. That's why I don't consider her a "good" character. :) I also loathe Sansa and Jon Arryn's widow (what was her name?).

    63. Re:I would prefer... by Nitar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, I read Gaiman's article, and if that's the approach an author wants to take, then so be it.

      At the end, Gaiman states, "...the simple and unanswerable truth: George R. R. Martin is not working for you."

      If Martin is not working for the reader, who IS he working for? Who pays his salary, and more to the point, who pays his royalties? In the end, it IS the reader. Without us spending our money on his books, there is no publishing deal and no royalties.

      If I go with Gaiman's line of reasoning, then my response is this. Fine, go ahead, write your stories. I'll only purchase them when you finish the entire series, and not a second before that. What motivation could I possibly have to read half of a series and not get to the ending? It just tells me that Gaiman and Martin take their readers for granted.

      If more readers decide to take this approach, then here's a clue BOOK ONE WILL NEVER SELL! It's not hard to figure this out. If book one does not sell, the publisher is not going publish book two.

      Therefore, while it is debatable that Martin does not work for us, the reader is buying the book(s) in an unfinished series in good faith that the series WILL in fact be finished. One could go further and expect some communication should there be an inordinate delay.

      At least I know where Martin (and Gaiman) stand here. I will not purchase any more of the Song of Ice and Fire books until the series is complete. It just sounds to me like Martin got enough money, and he doesn't feel like finishing it. If that's not the case, here's a clue, let your readers know!

    64. Re:I would prefer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you think us Wheel of Time fans feel?

      I don't know about you, but by the time I hit book 10 I developed an almost irrational impulse to write a condensed version of the series.

      I figure if I took out every redundant description of how the magic system works I could knock at least two of those books out right away without any other editing.
      Take out the other redundant descriptions of places, recent events, and the incessant plot summaries of previous books (and in many cases previous chapters) and I figure I could make the entire thing into a trilogy. Assuming the family actually ends up publishing a final volume, the whole story could be fit into 4 novels max, without eliminating a single piece of plot.

    65. Re:I would prefer... by adavies42 · · Score: 1

      could be worse, he could be david gerrold

      --
      Media that can be recorded and distributed can be recorded and distributed.
      -kfg
    66. Re:I would prefer... by Zalbik · · Score: 1

      and artists would prefer if fans stopped thinking of them as their bitches.

      But that's not very likely is it?

      And customers would prefer it if content producers would realize which side of the bread the butter was on. But given it isn't Microsoft we're talking about, this comment will likely be ignored.

      And please, calling George R. Martin an artist is quite a stretch.

    67. Re:I would prefer... by Repton · · Score: 1

      Well, if you're female, you'll probably fold your arms under your breasts, sniff, and maybe tug your braid.

      --
      Repton.
      They say that only an experienced wizard can do the tengu shuffle.
    68. Re:I would prefer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if he were "just doing his thing" it might be different.

      Instead he's writing the script for an HBO series, and helping to design a video game, and a half a dozen other things that aren't, finishing his boook.

      He's a free man and has every right to do that, however his fans are also free and can be annoyed with him about his behaviour and not buy his game, watch his series, or read his next book if they so choose.

      There is no contract between author and reader, there is however a relationship. The author is not obligated to write, the fans are not obligated to read. Just as I can stop coming to my job any time I like, but my employer can fire me and/or stop paying me if I do. We're all free to do what we want, there are always consequences to what we do. That applies as much to "artists" as it does to anyone else.

    69. Re:I would prefer... by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      I'm a wheel of time fan, and a fan of this series as well for that matter.

      There's one major difference between them. Robert Jordan is dead, he cannot finish the book, and from what I read he was working fairly hard on finishing it when he was alive or at least ensuring that it could be finished.

      The Wheel of Time is different, whatever faults his works have, Robert Jordan was trying to meet his obligations to his fans, the fact that an author might die before a series is finished is always a risk you take, just like you could hire a contractor to fix your bath, pay them a deposit and have them die halfway through the job.

      George R.R. Martin is still alive, so the same doesn't apply to him.

    70. Re:I would prefer... by Nightspirit · · Score: 1

      If he dies before the series is finished, and they split the last book (written by a different author) into three, then I'm just going to quit reading fantasy series altogether. That's what Tolkien got right, three books and then your done with the main storyline, with maybe a couple books afterwards that tie up loose ends or explore minor characters.

    71. Re:I would prefer... by KefkaZ · · Score: 0

      Wait, is this the Duke Nukem Forever thread? I'm confused...

  4. *sigh* by Sibko · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I sure don't have high hopes for this one. At least the tv-series has a small chance of getting the characters and drama right. [Assuming the networks don't decide to remove the incest and childkilling, and so on.] But I highly doubt videogame developers are going to focus on anything but violence, violence, violence with this. Doing anything else is going to require some thought, effort, and risk-taking as the primary draw of ASOIAF has much more to do with character interactions and political intrigue than straight up and up killing things.

    It'll probably end up similar to the three hack n' slash Lord of the Rings games on the Xbox - Gameplay might be fun, but you could remove the setting entirely and not make a difference. Personally, I think the best style for this game would be something more akin to King of Dragon Pass.

    1. Re:*sigh* by think_nix · · Score: 2, Informative

      tfa:

      "Development on a game for PC and "next-gen consoles" has begun, and George R. R. Martin will help out"

      so maybe wont be so bad after all eh? I guess as long as Mr Martin has some say so , or rather put Cyanide lets him.

    2. Re:*sigh* by think_nix · · Score: 1

      I hate replying to myself but on a another note it looks like the people at cyanide are all huge fans stated in their press release here:

      http://www.cyanide-studio.com/?rub=node&nid=806

    3. Re:*sigh* by ThisIsForReal · · Score: 2, Funny

      That means it's being developed for the Playstation 4 and the Xbox 720, and perhaps the Wii 2.0, unless by "next generation" they mean the devices that came out 3-4 years ago.

      --
      -THE END-
    4. Re:*sigh* by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      [Assuming the networks don't decide to remove the incest and childkilling, and so on.]

      They will, I'm sure :P

      But I highly doubt videogame developers are going to focus on anything but violence, violence, violence with this.

      Could be an RTS... The Game of Thrones board came was pretty good (at least before they came out with the Clash of Kings expansion with the imba-as-hell Unique House Orders...)

  5. What sort of game is it going to be? by Daedra · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Cyanide studio (http://www.cyanide-studio.com/) has previously published mostly sports games, although they currently got a Blood Bowl esque RTS -game in develoment along with a cartoonty MMO called "Dungeon Party".

    I'm personally bit wary of this SoI&F game they've announced, as their track record of games doesn't really fit in too well with what I'd hope from a SoI&F game. I think something like A Sharp's King of Dragon Pass could well enhance the Soi&F exprience far better.

    Still, I guess Cyanide has displayed ability to jump genres with their new productions, so pretty much anything is possible from the SoI&F game?

    1. Re:What sort of game is it going to be? by HaZardman27 · · Score: 1

      Cyanide is also responsible for Loki, a sub-par action-RPG in the vein of Diablo that was pretty outdated gameplay-wise when it was released. I understand that SoI&F probably doesn't have the fan base that major developers are looking for when acquiring intellectual property rights, but it's still a bit disappointing that a studio with such a bland resume (come one, Pro Cycling Manager?) picked this up. Here's hoping for the best.

      --
      Apparently wizard is not a legitimate career path, so I chose programmer instead.
  6. Subgames? by mcnazar · · Score: 3, Funny

    Will there be sub-games/mini-games for the following:

    * Braid pulling.
    * Adjusting ones dress.
    * Complex embroidery design? Maybe have a web portal where other players can design complex dresses. Dress design will be rated by the length and detail of descriptions (minimum description 3000 words or one chapter). MMO even?

    Excellent franchise to choose as both the TV series and games can produce multitudes of series/upgrades with no conclusion to plot or story.

    A Tip for anyone contemplating reading the whole series. After book three, skip every twenty pages.

  7. Noo!!! by mcnazar · · Score: 1

    Oh Frak! Wrong series!

    1. Re:Noo!!! by fractoid · · Score: 1, Funny

      I still lol'd. And I'd modify your tip to "after book three, skip every 20 pages or so, after book 5 skip to book 8 (was that the one where they, um, without spoilers I can say 'did the very important thing at the evil place which fixed something important'?) and then to book 11.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    2. Re:Noo!!! by mcnazar · · Score: 2, Funny

      Book 8?.. Hmm... not sure. Was that the one where 800 pages were dedicated to progressing the story 20 minutes? You know... where they nuked the ...very bad.. place? Then did book nine move the story along another 10 minutes?

      Thankfully its all a blur.

    3. Re:Noo!!! by fractoid · · Score: 2, Funny

      Nope, book 9 was back to petticoats and stamping one's tiny delicate feet. I hear that book 11 actually has some plotline. (I stopped reading after I bought book 10, took a 4-hour flight to a conference and an 8-hour flight back, tyvm jetstream, and still couldn't get more than a couple of hundred pages into it.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    4. Re:Noo!!! by mcnazar · · Score: 1

      Book 11 was not bad (if you read every 10nth page). The story does start moving along (an old character comes back for example).

      Plot didn't move along enough though. Considering that the 12th book was to be the final, it had to be over 2000 pages long to conclude the story.

    5. Re:Noo!!! by kalirion · · Score: 1

      The last chapter of Book 9 was where they did the "very big thing", and that chapter almost made up for all of book 8. Unfortunately book 10 made virtually no mention of the "very big thing" and the only good parts of it were the M&T interactions.

    6. Re:Noo!!! by sa1lnr · · Score: 1

      Yep, but I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments on the other series.

    7. Re:Noo!!! by Sage+Gaspar · · Score: 1

      Sometime around six or eight I realized I'd gone three books and couldn't iterate a single meaningful plot point. We go from killing big evil guys and fulfilling huge prophecies as the major moments in the books to... I dunno, weren't like two books driven by a bowl that controls the weather or some shit? We go from Thom, Moiraine and Lan to some random irritable old crone and some "knitting circle" crap? I really couldn't bring myself to care. I had already stopped reading the fifty page intros about nondescript shadowy figures that you'd need to make flowcharts and spend years poring over the texts to figure out who the hell they were.

      I bought the remaining books out of dogged determination and was momentarily interested when he actually brought main characters together in a familiar location to do something interesting. Then he proceeded to write another book that had absolutely nothing to do with this big event. I don't think I did more than skim a couple pages from it.

    8. Re:Noo!!! by paitre · · Score: 1

      Which is why the '12th' book will actually be books 12, 13 and 14.

      Srsly.

    9. Re:Noo!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Book 9 had the important thing, Book 10 had widespread reactions to the enormous amounts of chakra^Wone power used during the important thing.

    10. Re:Noo!!! by BollocksToThis · · Score: 1

      book 10 made virtually no mention of the "very big thing"

      Say what? It was mentioned almost every chapter.

      Book 10 is basically parallel to book 9 time-wise. Anywhere there were Aes Sedai, they would all suddenly stop what they were doing and stare off into the distance as they felt the huge use of saidar.

      --
      This sig is part of your complete breakfast.
    11. Re:Noo!!! by kalirion · · Score: 1

      Ok, so it was mentioned, but it MADE NO DIFFERENCE. This was, after all, a VERY BIG THING. After finishing book 9, everyone couldn't wait to find out what VERY BIG CONSEQUENCES resulted from it. And Book 10 instead focuses on some stuff that goes on at the same time.

      The ASOIAF equivalent would be if "Winter came" to Westeros and the Others overran half of it in one volume, while the next volume is all about Daenerys, where once in a while someone remarks "it's chilly for this time of year, isn't it?"

    12. Re:Noo!!! by BollocksToThis · · Score: 1

      You expected something, but you got something else. Sounds like you just described A Feast for Crows...

      I don't agree that it "made no difference" in book 10. The story has gotten so sprawly that a book covering the missing characters was basically due next. I can understand that that upsets some people, but I don't feel that way myself. I liked the idea that the very act itself had a huge impact throughout the world, even before the consequences could be dealt with.

      --
      This sig is part of your complete breakfast.
    13. Re:Noo!!! by kalirion · · Score: 1

      It wasn't about expectations. It was the equivalent of a humongous cliffhanger that doesn't get resolved the next episode. Except unlike TV episodes, it takes a bit longer than a week to wait for the next book. And it didn't help matters that there was almost nothing interesting in book 10 aside from the entertaining Matt & Tuon interactions.

    14. Re:Noo!!! by fractoid · · Score: 1

      Ok, so it was mentioned, but it MADE NO DIFFERENCE. This was, after all, a VERY BIG THING. After finishing book 9, everyone couldn't wait to find out what VERY BIG CONSEQUENCES resulted from it. And Book 10 instead focuses on some stuff that goes on at the same time.

      Exactly! It's like if some small startup company invented zero-point-energy modules that were cheap, would fit in a backpack, and would power a medium sized star indefinitely... and everyone heard about it on the news and said "that's nice" and carried on mining coal and chopping firewood without bothering to investigate.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
  8. Song Of Fire ... by ghillo · · Score: 4, Funny

    It is Duke Nukem Forever among the fantasy cycles.
    If you don't count The Wheel of Time, but that's quite different story.

    1. Re:Song Of Fire ... by fractoid · · Score: 1

      Is it now? Or is it "the hero discovers his inner strength and struggles against the great evil, aided by his three wise women and his two trusty companions"?

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    2. Re:Song Of Fire ... by Daedra · · Score: 1

      I don't really understand what would make you compare SoI&F with (now cancelled, RIP!) DNF.

      GRRM has been publishing SoI&F books on very steady intervals (a Game of Thrones '96, a Clash of Kings '98, a Storm of Swords '00 and a Feast for Crows '05), with the new book being announced to come out this year.

      The only similiary I could think of is that people have very high expectations of SoI&F, something I think DNF also had 'till the turn of the millenium or so.

      In any case, SoI&F is no unicorn we fantasy book nerds chase after, it's quite real and not vaporware.

    3. Re:Song Of Fire ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, Wheel of Time is probably in complete limbo for some people now since there'll always be those militant fans who won't accept the final book.

      Now, for some things I'd understand, ie the new Hitchhiker's book. But for Wheel of Time I'd say hey, it's gonna be like how the Simirillian is a Tolkien book.

    4. Re:Song Of Fire ... by ghillo · · Score: 1

      "My last formal update on A DANCE WITH DRAGONS was dated February 15, 2007" R.R. Martin I think the cycle will not be finished.

    5. Re:Song Of Fire ... by khchung · · Score: 1

      Let's hope this series will actually end in the author's lifetime ....

      --
      Oliver.
    6. Re:Song Of Fire ... by Yosho · · Score: 1

      You think that's bad? Guin Saga is up to 123 volumes and counting.

      --
      Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
    7. Re:Song Of Fire ... by Drathos · · Score: 1

      ...with the new book being announced to come out this year.

      No it hasn't.

      Martin has made promises the last couple of years that he would focus and get it finished, but has instead published 4 books in the Wild Card series and edited/coauthored several other works. The last formal update on his site was another "I'll get it done this year" dated January 2008. Informally, he's stated on LiveJournal several times that he's hoping to complete various chapters "soon."

      --
      End of line..
    8. Re:Song Of Fire ... by agendi · · Score: 1

      Outstanding! Thanks for the link.

      --
      I just can't be bothered.
    9. Re:Song Of Fire ... by H0p313ss · · Score: 1

      Is it now? Or is it "the hero discovers his inner strength and struggles against the great evil, aided by his three wise women and his two trusty companions"?

      It might be, if only we could figure out who the hero is. Let me know...

      --
      XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
    10. Re:Song Of Fire ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You think that's bad? Guin Saga is up to 123 volumes and counting.

      That's all? I knew the Japanese were lazy slackers! Over in Germany, the Perry Rhodan series is going on TWO THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED volumes, having released one novella every week since 1961.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry_Rhodan

    11. Re:Song Of Fire ... by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      GRRM has been publishing SoI&F books on very steady intervals (a Game of Thrones '96, a Clash of Kings '98, a Storm of Swords '00 and a Feast for Crows '05)

      You must a definition of "steady" I was not previously aware of.

      GoT->CoK - 2 years
      CoK->SoS - 2 years
      SoS->FfC -> 5 years
      FfC->DwD -> 4 years and counting...

    12. Re:Song Of Fire ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ya I read a couple dozen of them.

      I quit after the form-writing gave me a case of spontaneous, involuntary projectile vomiting.

    13. Re:Song Of Fire ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That sure as hell doesn't describe SoIaF.

    14. Re:Song Of Fire ... by fractoid · · Score: 1

      Awesome, I'll go hunt down a copy. :D

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
  9. Is it good? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can someone tell me if this "A Song of Fire and Ice" is any good and worth a read? Is it worth an entire media blitz?

    1. Re:Is it good? by beerbear · · Score: 2, Informative

      A Song of Ice and Fire is, in my opinion, the best fantasy story out there. Makes Tolkien look like a confused old fairy tale uncle. Realistic characters, lots of greys (as in bad guys act bad for a good reason and the other way around), no hesitation to kill off main characters/heroes, etc. While you wait for the next book, I suggest 'The First Law' series by Joe Abercrombie.

      --
      Hold my beer and watch this!
    2. Re:Is it good? by Pentagram · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes, it is that good. The writing is only fair, but the characterisation, plotting, and world-building are absolutely outstanding. The best fantasy series I have ever read, and I'm including LOTR. It's epic.

      You get war, intrigue, politics, a giant wall of ice hundreds of metres high, torture, incest, dire wolves, eunuchs, castles, tournaments, rape, duels, slavery, dragons, fratricide, patricide... all the good stuff :)

    3. Re:Is it good? by Corbets · · Score: 4, Informative

      A Song of Ice and Fire is, in my opinion, the best fantasy story out there. Makes Tolkien look like a confused old fairy tale uncle.

      Realistic characters, lots of greys (as in bad guys act bad for a good reason and the other way around), no hesitation to kill off main characters/heroes, etc.

      I'd rate it as the second best, actually, behind Stephen Erikson's Tales from the Malazan Book of the Fallen. However, they are two incredibly different styles, and while I think Erikson has the edge in execution, both of these guys are highly talented authors. Very hard to make a fair comparison between such radically different styles, I guess.

    4. Re:Is it good? by jurgenaut · · Score: 4, Interesting

      While I do agree on the characterization part, I cannot agree with you about the plot, because there is none yet.

      A bunch of subplots centered in a confused mishmash and a vague promise that "winter is coming".
      We don't even know what that means, except that the wildlings are supposed to invade from the north. Only - the wildlings were killed off in the last book.

      I see everyone begging Mr. Martin to please finish the series - but how would it be finished? There's no end condition.

    5. Re:Is it good? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You had me at incest.

    6. Re:Is it good? by ratinox · · Score: 1

      My own opinion is that the plot concerns an attempt by the last scion of a disenfranchised house to regain past glories, the return to the world of a wonder (or horror, depending upon your perspective!) that many thought long since passed, and the arrival of an inexorable evil from time immemorial - and what happens when the three collide. That's just me though. YMMV.

    7. Re:Is it good? by Dyslexicon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How it's going to finish is really straight-forward.

      When the seven kingdoms have sufficiently weakened themselves via in-fighting, the Others will overwhelm the wall. Danerys lands on the shores of the seven kingdoms with her dragons. Jon Snow, who is clearly the prince-who-was-promised, joins forces with her to fight off the Others fulfilling the title of the series.

    8. Re:Is it good? by Sobrique · · Score: 1

      It is, provided you can accept that it's not finished, and might never be.
      The writing style is superb - it's done a chapter at a time, from the point of view of a different character, and he's not shy about switching from protagonist to enemy, and exploring their motivations and reasoning.
      There's some truly awe inspiring character development that has you ... well, not really _liking_ the 'bad guy(s)' but empathising with them - understanding quite why they did something atrocious, that had you initially hating them for it. There's an excellent cast of well developed characters, and ... not really any of them stand out as 'clearly the protagonist'.
      Also it's quite brutal and harsh at times - 'key' characters die for reasons that are pointless or unfortunate. I can think of a few cases where that death gets turned around, and you see why someone did, but the motivation isn't 'because he was bad really' and much more tending to 'because sometimes good men have to die for the good of the kingdom'.
      Oh, and it's quite low fantasy - there's not really much magic in there, and what little there is a source of mystery and unease, rather than the wizard lobbing fireballs around that you'd get in some 'high' fantasy settings.
      In short, I'd say it ranks right near the top of the 'modern fantasy' rankings, and it's _certainly_ worth picking up the first book - A Game of Thrones - and see if you like it - if you do, you'll probably like the rest, but the writing style does make it a little difficult to 'get into'.

    9. Re:Is it good? by Sobrique · · Score: 1

      I'm liking the Malazan book of the fallen, but I'm not sure I'd rank it higher. For me, there's a bit too much of just dropping in new settings/locations/people with seemingly no real reason for them to exist.
      Matter of taste I guess. I'm certainly enjoying it a lot, but I wasn't quite as much on the edge of my seat for Toll the Hounds as I was for Dance of Dragons.

    10. Re:Is it good? by Pentagram · · Score: 1

      While I do agree on the characterization part, I cannot agree with you about the plot, because there is none yet.

      A bunch of subplots centered in a confused mishmash

      True to some degree, but each subplot is well constructed. There have been hints that all the strands of the story are part of an overarching plot, though Martin has been slow getting there (particularly in the last book). I don't mind the delay, however, because the journey is so enjoyable.

      a vague promise that "winter is coming".

      We don't even know what that means, except that the wildlings are supposed to invade from the north. Only - the wildlings were killed off in the last book.

      The Others are presumably the "big bad" of the series.

    11. Re:Is it good? by Selanit · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Allow me to dissent.

      "A Game of Thrones" suffers from an excess of underdeveloped characters. I counted 10-12 major characters, plus dozens of supporting cast. Daenerys, the exiled dragon princess, seemed interesting, as did Arya, the waterdancer-in-training. However, I finished the book without really caring about any of them.

      In some ways, the whole book felt like nothing more than background for plot lines that won't be developed until well into the second or third novels. For example, the very first chapter introduces the the undead ghouls who are evidently gathering to invade from the North, but they're barely mentioned for the rest of the book's 800 pages, appearing only briefly in the Jon Snow arc. Likewise, the extended story of Daenerys' marriage into the Dothraki tribes seems like wind-up for an invasion from the south by the dispossessed heir, evidently for one of the later books. Though the Daenerys plot struck me as the most interesting part of the book, it really had little or nothing to do with the main plot. With so very many characters to track, there was little time to develop a rapport with any of them.

      The landscape and cultures are, for the most part, stock. One glance at the map in the front will have any mildly educated person thinking "Oh, they're England and Scotland divided by Hadrian's Wall." The Dothraki are clearly based on the Mongols, only slightly more hedonistic; whereas the culture of the Seven Kingdoms is stock High Middle Ages.

      In short, the material was handled poorly, with little imagination, and at much greater length than it needed. The book could have benefited greatly from the tender attentions of a stern editor.

      I went on to read two or three more books in the series (checked out from the library) and finally gave up in disgust when he put an explanatory note at the end of a volume saying that he'd wound up splitting the book in two because there were so very many characters to follow. I take that as a sign of poor discipline. If the book has grown too far beyond its bounds, the correct response is to murder your darlings.

      I was disappointed. Some of his other work I've enjoyed very much, particularly "Tuf Voyaging" and (to a lesser extent) "Windhaven", and I'm a major fantasy fan, so I was expecting it to be enjoyable, and it wasn't. Bummer.

    12. Re:Is it good? by sunking2 · · Score: 1

      I decided to give it a try while waiting for the next Malazan Book of Fallen (which i highly recommend) to be released and I have to say its definately kept my interest, I'm currently on Book 3. I would compare it to the first 3 or 4 books (pre over wordy and characters turning annoying) of WoT as far as story/character development and action. Could do without the softporn, I can do a lot better for free on the internet, but its really pretty sparse. If I haven't read through the series by time the next Malazan book comes out I'll have to make a decision which to do next. They are both two of my favorites.

    13. Re:Is it good? by beerbear · · Score: 1

      Same thing here.
      I still don't know how I managed to read the complete first book. It just seems too random - and by that I don't mean 'the plot' (there isn't much of it), I mean *everything*. Names of persons and places, for example.

      --
      Hold my beer and watch this!
    14. Re:Is it good? by H0p313ss · · Score: 1

      A Song of Ice and Fire is, in my opinion, the best fantasy story out there. Makes Tolkien look like a confused old fairy tale uncle. Realistic characters, lots of greys (as in bad guys act bad for a good reason and the other way around), no hesitation to kill off main characters/heroes, etc. While you wait for the next book, I suggest 'The First Law' series by Joe Abercrombie.

      Well... that's your opinion... mine is that it HAD THE POTENTIAL to be one of the best fantasy epics ever. The first half of the first book really wowed me... but as the series dragged on it became more and more obvious that Martin had no idea where he was going. Given how good that first bit was I was very miffed to slog through the last volume and put it aside with relief not looking forward to the next installment at all... "Missed it by THAT much."

      --
      XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
    15. Re:Is it good? by ScentCone · · Score: 0, Troll

      war, intrigue, politics, a giant wall of ice hundreds of metres high, torture, incest, dire wolves, eunuchs, castles, tournaments, rape, duels, slavery, dragons, fratricide, patricide... all the good stuff

      I don't understand what last year's Democratic National Convention has to do with it. Please keep politics out of these discussions, OK? Thanks.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    16. Re:Is it good? by beerbear · · Score: 1

      Actually, I kinda fear that you may be right, but I'm too much of a sissy to admit it to myself. :)
      Not another 'Otherland', pleeeeeaaaaassseee.

      --
      Hold my beer and watch this!
    17. Re:Is it good? by H0p313ss · · Score: 1

      Can someone tell me if this "A Song of Fire and Ice" is any good and worth a read? Is it worth an entire media blitz?

      My advice it to read, and enjoy, the first volume. Then pretend that the author died and let your imagination fill in the cracks.

      --
      XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
    18. Re:Is it good? by Evelas · · Score: 1

      Definitely don't read it if you actually plan to like any of the characters. Anyone you actually like will either be killed or ignored for several books. The plot is fairly obvious if you think about it, but it's largely ignored. Almost all of the books are from the point of view of characters you don't care about, and the 'believably evil' characters are mostly annoying, especially when entire chunks of the book are dedicated to them, and then they somehow magically redeem themselves. However, if you do care about what kind of dresses Sansa is wearing, or how her last cup of tea was, there's plenty of that.

    19. Re:Is it good? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      not really _liking_ the 'bad guy(s)' but empathising with them - understanding quite why they did something atrocious, that had you initially hating them for it.

      Many of them, sure. But others (Joffrey) are such contemptible little pigheaded pampered entitled useless stupid shitheads whose only excuse is that they were born into royalty with a really fucking awful mother (and Tommen didn't turn out that way) that I laughed when he SPOILERED and read his SPOILER scene over and over again. Masturbating. Not really.

      I really fucking hate Joffrey.

    20. Re:Is it good? by Reapy · · Score: 1

      I hate people.

      "could do without the softporn."

      But you are ok with everything else in the book. I'm glad they chalked it full of violence, but man, hes just pushing it by including sex.

      What. The. Fuck. is wrong with this fucking country?

    21. Re:Is it good? by Godskitchen · · Score: 1

      WoT is NOT SoIaF

    22. Re:Is it good? by frenchgates · · Score: 1

      The first 2-3 books are phenomenal must reads if you like fantasy. But beware the 4th book. It is boring and is clearly Martin treading water in some kind of record-setting writer's block. It's almost entirely about minor and annoying characters. My guess is that he did that so as not to upset anything in the larger plotlines he is procrastinating on until the next book, if he ever finishes it.

      --
      Syntax error: loose != lose, affect != effect, then!=than
    23. Re:Is it good? by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      If the book has grown too far beyond its bounds, the correct response is to murder your darlings.

      You can fault Martin for a lot of things, but being squeamish about killing off his characters? Are you NUTS? There are gadflies with longer life expectancies than a SOIaF character...

    24. Re:Is it good? by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      I really fucking hate Joffrey.

      You don't say...

    25. Re:Is it good? by Otonotachibana · · Score: 1

      Malazan Books of the Fallen deserves a shout-out. It's gritty fantasy that often focuses on military companies. The non-human characters are more than 2dimensional plot devices. Maturely written, puts alot of faith in the reader (there is little exposition, you're expected to keep up).

    26. Re:Is it good? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We know about Sansa's dresses and tea and whatnot because that's her point of view. She might not be important to the reader but she has importance to the world as a political object. And here we get to know about her. But it's been a couple of years since I read one of these books so maybe John Snow thought about his clothes and food too.

    27. Re:Is it good? by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      People keep refering to their being lots of gratuitous sex in these books and I honsetly just can't remember much of that at all.

    28. Re:Is it good? by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      I would argue that their are a few likeable and still alive characters. But by and large the characters aren't very likeable. And while Martin's writing is better quality in general than Jordan's it doesn't make up entirely for the glacial pace at which he's published the story.

    29. Re:Is it good? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Realistic characters, lots of greys (as in bad guys act bad for a good reason and the other way around), no hesitation to kill off main characters/heroes, etc.

      I beg to differ.

      Tolkien's characters span the entire range of elements you mention and more. Many of them start good and end evil, some go back and forth several times, some try to be good and fail, etc.
      The most impressive thing about Tolkien's characters is how they develop over time and struggle with themselves while doing so.

      Tolkien kills off main characters when it benefits the plot. Most authors only kill the main characters when they need an easy "twist" which then throws off the whole story, or simply don't know what else to do with them.

      I like Martin, don't get me wrong. But where Tolkien's series feels like one complete story where everything is relevant, Martin's series feels like a collection of short novels that were cobbled together, and much of the plot and characters feel like they are there simply to fill space.

      I don't think it's fair to either to try and make a one-to-one comparison, because they are different types of stories.

      Tolkien's is a grand tale of an entire world, of adventure, good and evil both in the outside world and within the characters, and a sweeping commentary on the entire human condition.

      Martin's is a soap opera or classic drama set in a semi-fantasy setting, with overtones of pulp Romance fiction.

    30. Re:Is it good? by Selanit · · Score: 1

      The "murder your darlings" article is about cutting needless material from your manuscript, not killing off characters. But given the title, and the fact that I was critiquing him for having too many characters, I can see how you would think that.

    31. Re:Is it good? by myrdos2 · · Score: 1

      I have always felt that this was a strength of the series, not a weakness. I prefer stories that are true to their own rules. He imagined some characters, described the situations they're in, and then started to write. I dislike reading books and saying "That's not what would have happened!". Books where everything is too neat; where the hero always wins and the bad guys eventually lose.

      There's no excitement, there's no tension. When one of George Martin's characters is in danger, you're on the edge of your seat because Mr. Martin has no problem with killing his characters off.

      His plot is the same way: reality doesn't consist of neat predictable storylines with well-defined milestones. It's a chaotic mish-mash, and even the near future is very difficult to predict. I find his writing to be quite refreshing after years of reading formulaic fantasy stories.

    32. Re:Is it good? by alister · · Score: 1

      Brandon Stark, not Jon Snow.

    33. Re:Is it good? by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Actually, I've read the article before.

      It was just a joke about Martin killing off everyone, as he is wont to do. ;)

  10. It's A Song of Ice and Fire by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Correction: The series is actually called "A Song of Ice and Fire", not "A Song of Fire and Ice".

  11. ME TOO! by tritonman · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Me too! This is one of the best fantasy series ever, if only he wasn't so freakin LAZY!

  12. You just got my hopes up. by igorthefiend · · Score: 2, Funny

    I thought you meant an adaptation of 16-bit platformer Fire & Ice... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oRAaI5HrDw

    1. Re:You just got my hopes up. by anarche · · Score: 1

      Yeah I remember that one!

      it wasn't that great tho'

      --
      Wait! Whats a sig?
  13. MTW2 mod Westeros Total War by montyzooooma · · Score: 1

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=721

  14. i can see it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... the installer will look great but take ages. But to ease the pain, nice comments and a small videos can be seen during the installation.

    Then you start the game and it will tell you "this great game will continue in the 2010 edition".

    done.

  15. Series finish? by Sobrique · · Score: 1

    Well, personally I'm still hoping he'll actually finish writing it at some point.

  16. I'm not keeping any high hopes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Though most book to video game adaptations don't end up being very good, I hope this one is. Looking forward to the HBO series though. It could be great if the right casting is done.

  17. The Official RPG by XenoBrain · · Score: 2, Informative

    No links to the offical RPG? Is this Slashdot or what?! http://greenronin.com/sifrp/ It's Good Stuff(tm). It's almost brand-new too. I wonder if Green Ronin knew that other license talks were underway, because once we get videogames and miniseries, the value of that license is going to shoot through the roof.

  18. Blood Bowl by agendi · · Score: 1

    I was more excited to find out from the article that they are making a PC version of Blood Bowl.

    --
    I just can't be bothered.
    1. Re:Blood Bowl by Datamonstar · · Score: 1

      Just download a SNES emulator and Mutant League Football. It is probably better.

      --
      The eternal struggle of good vs. evil begins within one's self.
  19. The books suck by halivar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The story is so formulaic. Here's the formula:

    1) Create a likable character.
    2) Create a hideous character.
    3) Have Character #2 rape Character #1.
    4) Have multiple other people rape Character #1.
    5) Kill Character #1 in an ignoble fashion.
    6) Choose a new Character #1. Repeat steps 3-5.

    "Murphy's Law of George R.R. Martin":
    If you like a character, that character will be maimed, raped, and/or killed in the next book. There are no exceptions.

    1. Re:The books suck by Sloppy · · Score: 2, Funny

      You are seeing a statue inside the marble block. The actual plot is that pretty much everyone is getting raped, maimed, or killed.

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    2. Re:The books suck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, you haven't read his books, have you?

    3. Re:The books suck by geminidomino · · Score: 3, Funny

      "Murphy's Law of George R.R. Martin":
      If you like a character, that character will be maimed, raped, and/or killed in the next book. There are no exceptions.

      Yes there are. I liked a character that didn't even survive the FIRST book!

    4. Re:The books suck by DeadDecoy · · Score: 1

      Ya, I like the story and all, but I find myself just stopping for long periods of time because the characters I liked died off. Killing off a character works well a few times, but when it's done consistently, I find it hard to emotionally invest in the characters.

    5. Re:The books suck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually the only 3 characters I really like are still alive. But yeah, he does sort of have the Shakespeare "rape the main character" syndrome

    6. Re:The books suck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had a good chuckle over that, primarily because it is pretty much true.

      I actually happened to like the series (so far) simply because I was getting tired of the standard formula of heroic likable character saves the world.

      It makes the social interplay feel a lot more realistic when evil gets to win, and/or the line between good/evil is blurred or non-existent.

      But like others have said, finish the damn series before you start making spinoffs.

    7. Re:The books suck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which characters did you like that died? Ned and Robb I could understnad, but that's about it. Were you somehow attached to Robert? Tywin? Maybe the poor Frey who delivered the ransom money? Lots of named characters have died, but not really that many major ones. I count three; one of them is no longer dead, and one was never a POV character.

    8. Re:The books suck by joshamania · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it's so awful. I mean, nobody else has been copying Shakespeare for the last several hundred years but George R. R. Martin.

    9. Re:The books suck by ludomancer · · Score: 1

      That's the biggest and most successful meta-spoiler I've ever read.

      Thanks asshole!

    10. Re:The books suck by DeadDecoy · · Score: 1

      Hmmm for me it was Ned, Robb, Robert, Drogo (despite being a bloodthirsty barbarian, he likeable enough), Catelyn (though she comes back I think), Renly, and that's all I have for now. It's not just that these characters die, but in their deaths they take with them the hope for a more optimistic future. Ned and Robert die leaving a shattered kingdom. Renly and Robb die, leaving the unlikeable characters left in line for control. Drogo dies leaving Daenerys with a splinter of her newly attained community, after losing her family. Any time there's a buildup of prosperity or happiness, you can be pretty sure it will be damned a few chapters down the line. Hence the formula: create, rape, and kill likeable character. And since the writer does such a good job in making the rapers and killers unlikeable, I find it hard to dredge up interests or empathy to continue reading their story; when it's repeated, even more so.

  20. Cyanide? Really? by Drone69 · · Score: 0

    I would have been excited if it was BioWare or CD Projekt taking on the developer role. I would have been even more excited if it was Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series being turned into an RPG (as opposed to the FPS of the same name releasedback 1999).

  21. You are the main character of the game by Tim12s · · Score: 1

    Unlucky

    1. Re:You are the main character of the game by geminidomino · · Score: 2, Funny

      Shit. I'm not paying $60 for a game where I survive 10 minutes...

  22. Nobody's Bitch. by SoupIsGood+Food · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I would like it if writers stopped thinking of their customers as their bitch. If he does not understand the impatience and irritation of his paying customers in not delivering product according to a promised schedule, he's not going to have the franchise grow very much farther than it already has. A professional writer is an artist, true... but more importantly, a professional writer is a paid professional. It's a major disservice to the craft of writing to string your readers along the way he has.

    It's one thing to say, "Hey, guys... I lost my mojo on this. I may come back to it in a few years or I may not." Hey, whatever, crap like that happens. Stick to single-volume novels, and your readers will give you another chance.

    It's another thing to sneer at your readers and insult them for questioning your grandiose "art." That's not only rude, it's dishonest.

    It's not the reader's fault you managed to paint yourself into a corner with your sub-plots. It's not the reader's fault you can't break the story down into novel-length chapters... it's your failing as an =artist=.

    Entitlement? Demanding your readers adore you and your works uncritically after having failed them so spectacularly is probably one of the grossest examples of "sense of entitlement" I've come across.

    1. Re:Nobody's Bitch. by chromatic · · Score: 1

      ... a professional writer is a paid professional.

      Unless you're his publisher, you don't pay for a book until the writer finishes that book. Any other feelings of obligation you have are your problem, not the writer's.

      --
      how to invest, a novice's guide
    2. Re:Nobody's Bitch. by SoupIsGood+Food · · Score: 1

      This attitude of sneering condescension towards your meal-ticket is inexcusable in any industry. Not even Steve Jobs would be able to get away with going five years between iPods. Mr. Martin is no Steve Jobs.

      SF/F lives and dies by the Fandom. They're not just smelly geeks... they're the entirety of your net income. You cannot gain or keep an audience except by word-of-mouth, and as we have seen, there are far fewer kind things said about ASOIAF today than there were five years ago.

      Maybe he's hoping the HBO series will establish a fanbase that will free him from having to complete the novels to keep the franchise going. In any event, the sleazy imperiousness is a pretty sharp turn-off.

      Any feelings of obligation I have are the writer's problem, and a problem entirely of his own making. A PR fiasco is a PR fiasco, no matter how badly the author wants to wish it all away or blame the customer, and his attempts at damage control have been shockingly stupid. His agent and publisher must have corresponding callouses on their palms and foreheads by now.

    3. Re:Nobody's Bitch. by chromatic · · Score: 1

      This attitude of sneering condescension towards your meal-ticket is inexcusable in any industry.

      Precisely what sneering condescension?

      An author writes a book. You buy the book. There's your transaction. If you pay the author to write another book, there's your obligation. If the author never writes another book, you don't buy it. That'll teach him.

      Have you ever written a novel? I'm on my third (my ninth book overall). Some days, it's easy to write a couple of thousand words. Some months, it's impossible, so you go on and write something else. Sometimes a novel has to sit around for days or weeks or months or years before you figure out where things went wrong and the new scene to add or the character to change or one crucial plot point that releases the floodgates and gets you back to the point where you can write a couple of thousand words every day until you finish.

      Now I agree that promising release dates and blowing past them is bad policy (and bad publicity), but my obligation as a writer is to tell an honest story the best way I know how. My obligation to my readers is to give them a story worth their money when they pay for a book.

      If I haven't finished the book, I don't get paid. If you don't buy my book (or can't buy my book), I don't work for you. Where's my obligation to you then?

      --
      how to invest, a novice's guide
  23. Re:I would prefer... Foundation rather than Dune by Audiophyle · · Score: 1

    My fear with this series at this point is that it may go the way of Frank Herbert or Robert Jordan with the way it's taking so long. As much as I loved Dune, it was unfortunate that the original author could not finish his story. I hope that Martin is able to finish his epic tale with an epic ending, like Asimov was able to do before he passed away. (Although some would say that Second Foundation was already a great stopping point.)

  24. You are incorrect. by jasko · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There is no formula in ASoIaF. That's what frustrates people so much about the series - it defies expectation.

    There's no script immunity for viewpoint characters. And, without being spoilerish, there are no villains that are simply villainous. Nobody in Westeros wakes up and says, "I think I'll go be awful today!"

    There is rape, but not like you've described it. I'm trying to think of a likeable character that gets raped - the only multiple rape I can remember is that of a character nobody likes much to begin with, and that's done by an angry mob, not a particular character.

    Either you haven't read these books, or your reading comprehension is poor at best.

    As far as the delays between books, yes I find those frustrating as well. But like they say about games: A late book is only late until it ships. A bad book is bad forever. We like games that are released when they're done - books are better when writers are able to infuse them with life instead of simply cranking them out, too. We're talking about art here, people.

    1. Re:You are incorrect. by halivar · · Score: 1

      Either you haven't read these books, or your reading comprehension is poor at best.

      Oh, geez. I gotta be so literal.

      Ok. Robb Stark wasn't penetrated by icky things. But that dude got raped, numsayin'?

    2. Re:You are incorrect. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, he got grey humbug feline crayon green.
      Numsaying?

  25. Oh good ... by gcapell · · Score: 1

    something _else_ to distract GRRM from finishing writing the series.

  26. Relevant quote: by Michael+Woodhams · · Score: 1

    I saw this on someone's blog:

    "Every time someone asks when the next book is coming out, GRRM kills another Stark."

    It explains a lot.

    --
    Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
  27. Killing the main Character by Brownstar · · Score: 1

    Not that I think this world would be very easy to make into a fun video game,

    But I hope that if they actually do put the game out, that they pull off getting you truly attached to your character and then somewhere in the middle of the story they unexpectadly kill your character, and make you take up playing a different character. Maybe even the one that killed you.