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North Korea Conducts Nuclear Test
viyh writes "North Korea conducted a nuclear test on Monday, South Korea's Yonhap news agency quoted a ruling party official as saying.
A magnitude 4.7 earthquake was recorded by the USGS in North Korea.
South Korean President Lee Myung-bak has called an emergency meeting of cabinet ministers over the test, Yonhap said."
i for one welcome our north korean overlords
Soooo ronery....
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." --Mark Twain
Weapons that can destroy the planet are never a good thing so long as there's so much tension in the world.
The musings of just another geek and his junk.
Yeah, but it only takes one person with access, opportunity, and a death wish to take everyone with them.
If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.
It's time to send in Liberty Prime! Just need to reprogram him to yell about North Koreans and their "Juche" government, whatever that means.
It might be a good time to invest in all those radiation toys you've been thinking about.
http://ki4u.com/
Its a fun clip that should give slashdot readers some smiles, but
the last line is haunting, "keep on throwing I dare you.. "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpF5-mBmI0c
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/2308/the-second-north-korean-nuclear-test provides a sober view of the latest test as well as other Korean and arms control related http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/acw?q=korean&sa=Search topics.
The problem of world peace is one of leadership. It's not only a struggle for resources, but a struggle for supremacy, which guides our national policies. America believes it cannot continue to exist without controlling others. And NK believes that it must dominate its enemies in order to survive.
This can't be fixed so easily, I'm afraid. It's simply human nature. So it's up to each and every one of us to work towards that goal. I'm starting with the man in the mirror. I'm asking him to change his ways. And no message could have been any clearer: if you want to make the world a better place, take a look at yourself and make a change.
It'll be interesting to see if this latest provocation makes Japan finally go nuclear.
A truly excellent pizza parlor is a delight unto the heavens. Treasure the sauce and the toppings!
This whole North Korea situation sounds like a broken record.
Every U.S. administration since Clinton has been dealing with these sorts of North Korean threats. The Republicans criticized Clinton for his handling of the situation, and they found themselves in the exact same position.
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you know, if the media and politicians stopped making such a big deal of everything north korea ever does, i kind of think they'd stop... it's like angelina jolie adopting babies, or britney spears showing her sexual organs - it's all about attention.
weinersmith
Whole N Korea thing is something like a troll guy who begs for ''replies'' or getting banned until he gets the ultimate attention.
There were no news about N Korea for a while and bam, they explode a nuke.
Can a country troll? They seem to be able to do it.
I hate to burst you bubble of ignorance, but, North Korea's first nuke test was on Oct. 9th, 2008. You know, when that other guy was still in office. And it was in development for a long time before that. Barry has been on the job three months. He's barely had time to get into the front door of the White House. You can't pin this on him at all. Kim Jong Il has always been one to do as he pleases.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." --Mark Twain
People claimed Bush was able to stage/provoke 9/11 in just nine months. It's perfectly fair to blame this on Obama, it's all part of the job.
I'm not referring specifically to nuke tests. I'm referring to the threats that North Korea has made to the West, mostly relating to medium-range missile tests. Also, I'm not American and I couldn't care less about partisan politics in that country. As far as I'm concerned, there are very few differences between the two major parties as they're both financed and mostly controlled by major corporations.
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since north korea ignores sanctions and doesn't care about their citizens who are suffering from famine and the obsessive control of their despotic leader, we should give them of something that kim jong il will understand -- launch a missile strike on one of his palaces, and tell him if he doesn't halt work on nuclear weapons immediately -- including divulging information on these weapons to Iran and Pakistan -- we'll have no other choice than to take him out of the game permanently.
Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
News not yet confirmed by THE OFFICIAL NEWS SOURCE.
See? Absolutely nothing new happened since Kim Jong Il received a gift from UK figure.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
That wasn't in response to you, javacowboy. It was in response to the "Barry's Fault" comment from an Anon. that's been modded down already. :P
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." --Mark Twain
Strange....I didn't see that comment. I doesn't even appear as "1 hidden comment". It's totally invisible.
Still, sorry for the misunderstanding.
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The he only way countries like Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan etc can be sure they wont be invaded is to get nuclear weapons.
It would have been much easier arguing against these countries getting nuclear arms of the west had not invaded countries right and left for no reasons. Stupid decisions brings terrible effects.
I very highly doubt these weapons will ever be used. The only country that has ever used an atombomb so far is the US so i would watch them more closely than North Korea.
HTTP/1.1 400
Does this effect levels of radioactivity in air of S. Korea (or Japan, China) ?
839*929
Hee Hee! Shamonuh. Chickah chickah.
They don't need to be used in order to cause harm. Now, no one will stop Kim from doing whatever he wants. Not like they would "help" them anyway, since theres no oil there, but its a general idea.
Who knows if USA wouldn't have been invaded long time ago if not for their nukes. A lot of people hate them for good reasons, but can't "fix" them, cause they simply have nukes.
Now that I think about it, my comment looks like redundant. Ah, give me "unsubmit" button :(
A magnitude 4.7 earthquake was recorded by the USGS in North Korea.
If memory serves their last couple tests didn't generate much of a yield. But that big of tremor likely indicates they have overcome that problem. They got it working now.
Lovely.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
we would have to run the line of succession until we found a person we could live with and then somehow take out a whole mess of stuff.
99.999999% of the battle plans include Seoul Korea as casualties in the first couple hours.
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
And no message could have been any clearer: if you want to make the world a better place, take a look at yourself and make a change.
In my estimation, more misery has been created by reformers than by any other force in human history. Show me someone who says, "Something must be done!" and I will show you a head full of vicious intentions that have no other outlet. What we must strive for always! is to find the natural flow and go with it. - The Reverend Mother Taraza, Conversational Record, BG File GSXXMAT9
When China finally wakes up and realizes that having a somewhat unstable next door neighbor armed with nukes is a bad idea, this sort of thing will stop - North Korea survives only because China keeps giving them tons of aid.
Perhaps the North Koreans are interested in China's continued aid supplies over the long term? As in, after they get a credible, deliverable weapon, 'If you stop the gravy train, we take out Hong Kong, even if we're glass 8 minutes later. That whole "we don't like the west" thing was just so you would let us build nukes.'
I really don't get China's motivations. Once the nuclear genie is out, they won't be able to stuff it back in. It's like the U.S.A. helping Haiti to get nukes because they don't like Cuba. Does it not occur to the Chinese govt. that once North Korea has a real nuclear capability, they could aim it anywhere they so wished?
Sure, and now they can hug them with their nuclear arms.
Religion?
Good morning! Where have you been the last couple of years? Your list is at least two countries short!
It's not good, but all this means is North Korea can't be invaded, and who would want to? Altruism is not a good enough reason to sacrifice troops in a country that would be prepared to use Nukes against an invader. The leadership is weak and in a time of turmoil. I'm fairly certain that Kim Yong-il suffered a stroke recently so he can't lead the country there forever so someone has to replace him. They will inherit a country with weapons, but no bread. How sad for the North Korean people.
So while the leadership of North Korea is at it's weakest, it beats it's chest with it's weapons forcing improving their position of bargaining. This can be summarised with the wisdom of Sun Tzu: "the clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy's will to be imposed on him." and the North Korean leadership is doing the opposite of "masking strength with weakness is to be effected by tactical dispositions."
They are masking weakness with strength.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
They're way too small. They could only destroy civilization.
Deleted
The locals don't call the DMZ the end of the world for nothing...
All the nukes in the world (literally) won't do more than scratch its surface.
Best Slashdot Co
You're not a very informed American, which makes me sad as an American.
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
I hear a rumour that the American government is working with Exxon and BP to fabricate geological evidence that North Korea possesses, or is about to discover, oil.
This could get nasty.
If the US invades North Carolina then the international community has no business saying anything. However, I assume that you mean NK not NC.
I don't believe in this preemtive war crap, but you really should check the history books. NK and Iraq were both involved in wars of aggression BEFORE they got the "no nukes for you" sanctions slapped on them. This recent go around with King George and his merry men and the US engaging in first strike is pretty new. Invading their neighbors is what got them in trouble. Which is why I am so pissed off about the Iraq invasion because it undermines our credibility when we tell another country they are in trouble for hitting first. Now other countries can point and say "We had good enough reason, like you did".
North Korea invaded South Korea. Iraq invaded Iran, then some years later invaded Kuwait. They have proven track records of firing first. You are a fool if you believe that those countries are developing those weapons to help plant flowers. They lost their wars of aggression and now want bigger guns to keep trying. North Korea pulled out of the Non-proliferation treaty and then made a mad dash towards the finish line to deliver working nukes. Yeah...they are TOTALLY doing this for peaceful advance... I don't know about a reason to invade just yet, but it is definitely a reason to load your gun and take aim. These people are nuts and now they have the big bomb. 10 years ago one of his advisers defected and explained that ol Kimmy thinks he can win a war with the US. I seriously doubt those ambitions and beliefs have been diminished with the completion of this weapon.
The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
Oh, of course this wasn't known earlier in the usual "well informed circles". I can even see the dialog in the NKR supasekret mission room.
(cue 2D-TV graphics)
General: Divine Leader, the black man has won the election.
Kimmie: Excellent. Start working on the bomb immediately!
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Most species on the planet would be better off if humans ruined their own civilizations; it's the asteroids and supernovas they're really afraid of.
*cough* North Korea is not part of the USA, ergo doesn't celebrate Memorial Day. *cough*
I knew the Bene Gesserit had to have something to do with it!!!
South Korea has been our friend for many years. You don't just abandon your friends.
Same with Israel, same with Taiwan.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
Perhaps statements like this are part of the reason why some South Koreans 'hate' the US?
I agree with your post about the U.S. needing to get out of the world-running business. But - your casual statement regarding the extermination of 70+ million people only in terms of positive impact to U.S. car companies is not helpful to your argument, since people may assume you are a ghoul, which means they won't take your otherwise good idea as seriously as they should.
A few things:
1) The S. Korean army can defend itself from the North. The reason we (I'm American) were there originally was that it was assumed (probably rightly) that any confrontation would actually be with China, through North Korea, which would be a pretty big, horrible war.
2) The reason we're still there is basically the same: As a deterrent against China. If China misbehaves, we're right there. Also, we have a joint security treaty with Japan, and basically share militaries with them (they don't have one, officially, but... they have one). There are many Asian history scholars who basically see the current Korean situation (North/South) as a buffer to keep China away from Japan (remember that the US and Japan are old buddies, having only had that little spat in the 40s). Full disclosure: I live in Japan and my wife is Japanese; I'd like us to continue this deal (there's no reason to stop it--Japan is and always has been the only country in Asia whose values mesh well with the West--chivalry and Calvinism, basically, although they go by different names).
3) Who would benefit from a war in South Korea? Nobody in the short term, China in the long term. In the short term, Korea (both of them) would suffer, Japan might take some hits (they would be really not cool with that), and then China would take the area over, getting all that American infrastructure and brain investment, in addition to some of the shittiest land in East Asia. It wouldn't really be a desirable thing.
4) Koreans are crazily patriotic. They denounce everybody. They insist on serving kimchi with French food (I love kimchi, but, um... Do we serve ketchup with pulgogi in the US???), just to assert their Korean-ness. It's insane. They bitch and moan about Japan and burn the Japanese flag every time a politician has the audacity to honor Japan's war dead, despite the fact that a large percentage of their business comes from Japan and they have just basically copied the Japanese economic model--even where it makes no sense to their situation. Korea is nuts. Both Koreas. Crazy. A history of playing second-fiddle to whomever else was in power has bred a keen inferiority complex, which they overcompensate for. So saying they hate America is not really the whole picture. They hate everybody.
Finally, I don't really care if North Korea gets the bomb either, and I live in their closest target. 10 years ago when I was a student in Osaka, they fired a rocket over our heads and it landed in Osaka harbor. I think I was supposed to be scared, but my response was, "Oh fuck you." That's all I feel today, too. I'm not afraid of these morons. They're not going to do shit, and if they did, they'd be wiped off the map by mid-afternoon.
Yes India and Pakistan, not to mention the other ones that are suspect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction
October 9, 2006, not 2008.
But honestly... are we going to debate whether a US president, sitting or past, is responsible for the actions of KJI? That guy is a nutjob and an egomaniac and to pretend that he's only that way because of the behavior of the US is dangerously naive.
Textbooks and Open Educational Resources
It isn't necessarily a nuke that could be fitted into a missile
The test is being reported as an 'Hiroshima' size yield: around 20 kilotons.
This doesn't mean they have a fully-funtional nuke in the moden sense of the word. The Hiroshima bomb was basically a large gun that fired a chunk of 90% U-235 into another chunk of Uranium, and was a proof-of-concept that was simple and guaranteed to work. And big: not possible to mount on a Taepodong-2. They have hundreds of kilos of Uranium from their pre-2007 nuclear power industry that can be enriched for this type of bomb.
Until they can show they're testing nukes using shaped Plutonium and timed explosives, this could be just bravado to stir up support for the military as Kim Jong-Il hands power over to one of his sons. Not necessaily technical achievement.
Only on Slashdot could a post that is half Michael Jackson lyrics be listed as insightful.
Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
Well, Im not going to even comment on the rest of your post, but in your mind, if Korea destroys itself, the first thing that comes into your mind are Korean car companies?
And you know, this being slashdot and all, maybe you heard of a little company named Samsung, which is just one the biggest semiconductor companies in the entire world and the largest manufacturer of DRAM and Flash memory chips, not to mention hard disks and LCD technology?
As for the rest, suffice to say that I strongly disagree with you.
This doesn't surprise me a bit. John Bolton predicted this a week ago. "Oh, but they dismantled their nuke program!" Um, sure, the stopped trying to make fissile material because it's probably far cheaper to buy it from the Iranians. And I have no doubt that North Korea traded with Iran for the designs and other essential technology. So in fairly short order we'll have two extremist countries with nukes. WW3 is coming, folks, but keep believing you can talk them out of it.
I hate to burst you bubble of ignorance, but, North Korea's first nuke test was on Oct. 9th, 2008.
You mean first successful nuke test. They could have been firing duds for decades and we wouldn't know.
Actually LOL it's funny you mention that. My mother in law is from South America and down there a whole bunch of people believe Osama Bin Ladin and George Bush staged the whole 9/11 thing and are friends. I mean I am not a fan of Bush, I think he's a complete idiot who can't even do Arithmetic (aka tax less spend more). But even I don't believe that, I don't think he's smart enough.
Also I think the guy is delusional and belongs in a mental institution. He seemed to think he was Jesus's second coming or something and with the hand of god he would smite all those violent Islamic people who dare occupy the holy land, they're all terrorists. But I think he needs to believe his delusions. I don't even think with GWB logic he could justify planning 9/11.
But anyway it is amusing how bad the sentiment against the whole US is in the rest of the world. Especially South America. They're still a bit pissed off over the whole keeping dictators in power and training their armies to murder/torture people. Ronald Regan the hero of the Republican party here is a mass murderer down there guilty of crimes against humanity. Personally I was just a kid when Regan was in office, all I remember is the guy took a lot of vacations LOL....
...why is the USA even bothering to defend North Korea? Right away, if North Korea and South Korea destroyed each other, it would be better for American car companies.
At some point, the USA needs to let go of trying to run the world. There's no gain in it for America, and the world doesn't want to be run anyway.
So North Korea gets the bomb. I don't care. Neither should you.
Well if left alone, the North and South Koreas would likely reunite (albeit with a lot of bloodshed). But we're in hypothetical territory here. Worst case scenario for us, (USA) is that North Korea massacres the South's government and becomes the new head of state.
So we'd have a hybrid nuclear + crazy + high-tech (former S. Korea half at least) rogue nation with a lot of western military tech. They could attack Japan or China or other nations we trade with.
There's a big difference between trying to "run the world" and "trying to leave nothing to chance (or reducing risk)". It's pretty clear the USA isn't a charity sugar-daddy for the world. We look after our own usually, it's human nature. Nations that exhibit civility and maturity we (USA) mostly enjoy trading with and share mutual goals. Loose cannons like N.Korea and the area of tribal borderlands within Afghanistan are quite content causing mayhem and destruction. Perhaps they see it differently, living like it's the stone-age must be cool to them.
Maybe you're just not thinking hard enough, although we can't all agree on the best solution, there are several that are better than letting mass murderers do whatever they damn well please.
hmmm... problem is when you ask us americans to look in the mirror and make a change, we go and get a tummy tuck, or a boob job, or a face lift.
Thanks for the interesting post - you sound like you have a keen appreciation of the politics there. So, let me ask you the question I've asked elsewhere:
How does a nuclear armed North Korea benefit China?
All the explanations I can come up with only make short-term sense. I don't think the Koreas' will remain seperate forever (or even for more than 50 years). A unified, nuclear armed Korea is probably not a good thing to have on your doorstep - why encourage it?
I DO think the North Korean government is pretty crazy, and once they get deliverable nuclear weapons, that gives them a big stick to use against anyone, including China! Allowing North Korea to develop nuclear weapons ultimately reduces China's control over them. Why would they do this?
North Korea and China are allies for strategic, historical reasons which are becoming less important. The basic relationship seems to be, "We give you arms, and food when you botch up your agriculture or have a drought -- you cause trouble/distractions for us when we ask". I wouldn't bet a lot on such a relationship enduring many decades.
The fact that North Korea would be a smoking hole within a half-hour doesn't seem to deter them much, but I think China might object to having Guangzhou or Hong Kong removed as well. That's the problem with nukes - their destinations are not hard-coded into them based on the political winds of the day they are done.
And, risking veering off into serious off-topic land: Why do you think Japan's culture is more compatible with the West than any other Asian country? I know it might be a long response...
The odd thing about North Korea is that even without nukes it is offlimits for US military action for three reasons
First most people think the North Korean army would fight if attacked, unlike the Iraqi one. Their equipment is outdated, but they have numbers and determination would most likely kill enough Americans to trigger a Vietnam style withdrawal. I'd guess China would keep them supplied too.
Secondly North Korea has vast amounts of artillery aimed at Seoul, the capital of South Korea. It is theorized that if attacked they would shell Seoul. By the time the artillery had been destroyed by US airpower millions of South Koreans would be dead, and probably thousands of US pilots. The US government would most likely not be able to accept that loss.
Finally it's widely believed that China has told the US that NK is under its protection and that attacking it would move the US and China into an open state of hostility.
Now they do have nukes they could use them on US forces, Japan or South Korea. Actually I think that Japan or the US would probably be able to shoot down NK missiles or destroy them on the ground as they are liquid fueled and thus take time to set up. Also there are questions of whether they would be able to build a warhead that would fit on a missile. So compared to their conventional military and powerful allies, their nukes are not particularly useful.
Of course even a few dummy missile launches at Japan may trigger an extreme overreaction on Japan's part. Their current pacifism could be revoked quite quickly and while pointedly non nuclear it is widely believed that they could build a large nuclear arsenal very quickly if threatened. China would no doubt react by building up its own military. So an attack on NK would most likely leave South East Asia looking like a much more threatening place.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
I thought after World War II, Japan wasn't allowed to have a military anymore. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_military
Your premise that the USA has historically been "buddies" with Japan is entirely wrong. The USA sailed in Japan with a fleet of modern warships in the 1850s and forced Japan to essentially surrender without so much as half a fight.
"The black ships" was one of the most humiliating episodes in Japanese history and there are plenty of Japanese that haven't forgotten it.
The deal is, historically, if anything, the USA has had a much better relationship with China. We accepted numerous Chinese immigrants and we went to war with Japan because of Japanese atrocities against China.
The thing is, I really don't see, long term, why the USA should set itself up against China. Keep them out of the pacific, yes, but if China wants to play hard with Korea or Japan, then, is it really our problem?
This is my sig.
If world stability was even remotely important we would "solve this problem" like we solve the non-existent WMD problem in Iraq. It's all about oil or revenge (Iraq and Afghanistan, respectively).
6.8SPC TR of 550, l xwind at 6, drift rt at 26" drops 77". AT has 503 ft-lbs at 1403 fps. FT 0.86
dude i dunno if you have worked at a big company, but they pretty much pay people the same no matter what they do, as well. except for certain jobs, like some managers... they typically try to pay as little as the market allows, and give as much as possible to their top brass and CEO. the people who improve processes or do good work on projects get no bonuses or raises, and often the credit for their work gets stolen by brown nosing butt lickers who climb the corporate ladder.
I think the difference here is that only a few nutjobs are dumb enough to claim Bush orchestrated 9/11.
Just like only a few nutjobs are stupid enough to claim Obama is somehow responsible for North Korea nuclear testing.
Or that Obama is responsible for the current economic situation, or responsible for "government spending" (including bailouts) that started before he ever entered office.
The more sane conspiracies re: Bush+9/11 are regarding how his administration used it to take political control over the country and stir up a nationalistic fervor and point it at whatever HE wanted to do (ie: attack Iraq). And of course, use it to paint anyone who disagreed with their policies as terrorists or "soft on terrorism". Which you'll notice, Cheney is continuing to do even after leaving the white house.
Not so sure. As far as I know there's only one country who has ever used nuclear weapons against inocent civilians...twice. Yet that doesn't necesarily implies that any other country could become equally insane.
Taxes, health care, and education are socialist ideals.
No, those things are not inherently socialist. They can be applied in a socialist manner, but taxes, medical care, and education were around long before Karl Marx. Taxes are used in every economic system in some form. So is health care. So is education. It's how you implement those things.
You could possibly make an argument that American public schools are used in a semi-socialist model... and I wouldn't argue with you too much about that. But a government service implemented for "the general welfare", as the Constitution puts it, isn't socialist by definition. See the postal service.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
Hiroshima sized yield doesn't mean Hiroshima sized device or Hiroshima technology device. (Note that the Little Boy bomb is reported to be about 13-18 Kiloton while the Nagasaki bomb - a plutonium pinch device - only 21.)
The Hiroshima bomb was dropped without testing because it was such a near-sure-thing. The Nagasaki bomb had a prototype tested at Trinity because it was it was more iffy: Any screwup in the explosive focus, the calculations, the isotope mix, the timing of the neutron strobelamp, or more stray neutrons than expected would cause it to perform badly or just spray its material around in a conventional explosion. (They even constructed a bottle to hold the debris in case it failed, to catch the material for another try, though they changed their minds and left the bottle lying near ground zero.)
North Korea's first test apparently didn't work anywhere near as well as intended. They have a parallel missile program for a delivery system - developed on a very limted budget compared to that of WW II USA. And in sixty years a lot of stuff about what works has leaked out, while the Manhattan project had to roll their own from scratch.
So I'd bet that the bomb they tested is a prototype of one that would work as a payload on the missiles they're testing, not a new "Little Boy" - or even "Fat Man".
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Yes! That's the right answer. We need to be strong enough to defend ourselves, but peaceful in every way. People are working on world peace, it is not as far off as you may think.
Qxe4
Seriously, the US seems to be living under the belief that -it- did, or that the world did.
Hence its mission to "liberate" Iraq, and so on and so forth. Remember how Saddam was murdering his people? I don't recall the people of the world calling for "someone, anyone" to step up to the plate.
You say in a sibling post "how many Americans are you willing to part with for nice TVs" and how American car companies are more important to you than the lives of 70 million people, on the basis that "that affects your life". That your life is being adversely affected by other companies "dumping" cars on America, putting poor GM and Chrysler out of business.
I'm not sure whether it's astonishing, amusing, or just makes me want to cry that you somehow believe that what's best for you and America as a whole is somehow a "priority" or goal on the mission statement of m/any American companies. But yet you've no objection to the concept of foreign nuclear war to advance it, anyway.
It would be interesting to see an America that was solely focused on/required to be self-sufficient. Interesting, like a train wreck is - I don't think it'd do half as well as you seem to think it would.
Maybe? The US gives nearly $10M a day in aid to Israel in direct cash, and billions a year in military equipment/assistance/discounting. It gives more aid to the average Israeli citizen than it does the average US citizen. I think the "neither confirm or deny" stance of Israel on nuclear weaponry is stretching even the most avid Michael Bay movie fan's sense of plausible and credible deniability at this point.
... South East Asia...
I think you mean North East Asia.
Secondly North Korea has vast amounts of artillery aimed at Seoul, the capital of South Korea. It is theorized that if attacked they would shell Seoul.
This point can't be emphasized enough: not only are there literally thousands of (somewhat crude) artillery pieces along the North/South Korean border, but it's widely believed that they are equipped with chemical warfare shells. In practice, North Korea doesn't really need nukes to bring massive devastation and megadeaths to South Korea: their artillery can do much more damage than a dozen 50 Kiloton nukes. Before taken out, the Korean artillery can bring pandemonium to the South, and the NK leadership wouldn't hesitate a second to do this - after all, they didn't much mind about millions of their own people who starved to death, or hundreds of thousands being killed in their concentration camps.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
Denial of human rights doesn't work, whether through communism or oligarchy parading as democracy.
Once people demand and establish direct democracy and stay active in it, no other solution will come close. The more decentralized enforcement it has, the longer it will last. You'll notice how countries where people stay active in unions - France, Germany, Italy - have less wealth disparity, happier citizens, and have tended to be more pacifistic and less colonialist than the UK and the US.
Marx had it right in some ways - workers must have a huge stake in the places they work. Capitalists have it right in some ways - where there is a sensible regulated market, which allows competition by making everyone play by fair and moral rules, you will have a more efficient economy.
The problem is that for thousands of years a very small class of people has had control over the direction of the world, and unsurprisingly, they try to force it to bend to benefit themselves. Technology is undoing their hold on what can be valuable, and the internet is taking their control over propaganda away. The printing press destroyed monarchies and the catholic church. I think the internet will destroy corporatism and fundamentalism.
You seem to be referring to the 2006 test. I was in the USA when that happened, and it was absolutely fascinating comparing the US news with the rest of the world. The newspaper that was delivered to my hotel every morning had some variation of 'OMG North Korea Has Teh Nukes!!111eleventyone' on the front page for a few days. Then the BBC ran an article pointing out that the 'nuclear' test had not registered on seismographs in South Korea or Japan, and there was no sign of increased radioactivity anywhere around the test site. This story did not appear in any US news sources I read, but news stories about North Korea's nuclear weapons very quickly vanished from the newspaper.
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USSR was a socialist country, not a communist one. There's a big difference between the two. Communism was promised, eventually, but they never got there. Just because the ruling party was CPSU, doesn't mean they had communism.
Don't worry, I bet they get loads of spam about needing a bigger Taepodong...
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
What about all those Iranian observers they were stepping through the build process for a little hands-on knowledge transfer. Do we want to consider that at all here?
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Can you show me a single nation that followed, or even approximated, Communism? All I see is a bunch of fascist dictatorships using Karl Marx's Rhetoric to excuse their power grab.
Which, for some, is enough proof that it doesn't work...
The USA place itself on first the conventional defense and now nuclear defense obligations so that our so-called allies can dump their products on the USA. What kind of a dumb deal is that?
Yes, it is such a raw deal to have to actually drive all these shiny new cars coming in from all over the world. And the TVs! They dump so many on the US that you have to have at least 4 in each household just to keep up.
Life is indeed hard.
Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
get swatted like a bug?
Its really too bad that there will be no unified (peacful) Korea, but NK's stupidity has just about guaranteed that will not happen.
China has a lot of reasons for wanting to keep NK from destabilizing the region and as an up and coming superpower, they may feel the need to take action. I know I would NOT support sending my fellow Americans to NK's aid if China invaded (in fact, I hope we would side with/assist China if such action occurred to help us learn to cooperate closely in the future.)
So compared to their conventional military and powerful allies, their nukes are not particularly useful.
A nuclear arsenal can be viewed as a deterrent to enemy ground invasion. North Korea's nukes are useful for this purpose, just like their massive artillery. With the capability to annihilate a few nearby cities like Tokyo and Seoul, North Korea can effectively prevent a conventional attack.
Nuclear arms also earn a country respect. India and Pakistan both endured negative response from other countries before they got theirs. Once they had them, the bluster and threats of sanctions from other countries disappeared. Or am I remembering this wrong?
I think the most likely scenario would be something like this:
USA: Bad NK! We are gonna invade! Booya!
China: If you do, we will demand you pay your debt to us.
USA: That would totally fsck our economy man!
China: So don't do it then.
USA: Lets get Iran! Booya!
Intersting. Do you think Karl Rove or Dick Cheney are smart enough for that kind of strategy?
How about evil and cold hearted enough?
Personally I'm going to have to say "yes" on both parts.
Japan is and always has been the only country in Asia whose values mesh well with the West--chivalry and Calvinism, basically, although they go by different names.
...Say what? The U.S never cared about chivalry when the chips were down. We fought dirty (aka. to win at all costs) ever since the Revolutionary War. Also, Calvinism? The theological system and approach to the Christian life that emphasizes God's sovereignty or control over all things? Dude, Japan is what 1% Christian? The only Asian country that I know of with a significant Christian populace is South Korea. Methinks your extended stay in Japan has either eroded your English, and/or given you a bad case of weeabo.
Koreans are crazily patriotic. They denounce everybody. They insist on serving kimchi with French food (I love kimchi, but, um... Do we serve ketchup with pulgogi in the US???), just to assert their Korean-ness. It's insane. They bitch and moan about Japan and burn the Japanese flag every time a politician has the audacity to honor Japan's war dead, despite the fact that a large percentage of their business comes from Japan and they have just basically copied the Japanese economic model--even where it makes no sense to their situation. Korea is nuts. Both Koreas. Crazy. A history of playing second-fiddle to whomever else was in power has bred a keen inferiority complex, which they overcompensate for. So saying they hate America is not really the whole picture. They hate everybody.
Huh... I find a bit hard to believe a significant number of western style restaurant even in an Asian country would actually serve their native cuisine alongside the exotic food. What would be the point of that? One or two might, but most I just can't believe. For better or for worse, the Japanese war dead equals invading monsters who looted, raped and pillaged both literally, and metaphorically to the Koreans. I agree it's silly to get mad, but it's easy to see honoring the dead as justifying the actions of those who died to support an evil empire, and I can see why that's unforgivable. While a history of living in China's and later Japan's shadow would make a nation have a complex, how exactly does this make S. Korea nuts? What exactly have they done that's crazier than the U.S. or Japan? I've found that the youth from both nations at least are equally patriotic, but course this is just personal observation.
On a trivial note: I doubt bulgogi is ever served with catsup. Wouldn't make much sense to add more flavor to heavily marinated meat that's supposed to be eaten with rice.
The population of North Korea is probably much like other Asian countries. Unfortunately, the civilian population doesn't matter. They don't matter to their leaders, and they should not matter to us because it is the leaders we are going to have to contend with.
I seriously doubt the leaders of North Korea give a rat's ass about the children of the people starving in their country.
OK that is one thing I don't quite get. They (Korea and Japan) seem to hate each other (or so I hear), but I don't quite get why.
Why do the hate each other so?
>Secondly North Korea has vast amounts of artillery aimed at Seoul
Is it really possible for North Korean artillery to fire at Seoul? When looking at a map, Seoul seems to be almost 50 km from North Korean borders. Now, I think WW2 battleships could fire at targets over 15 km away, but is there artillery with almost 50 km range of fire? Or do you mean some kind of rocket based weapons? What's the maximum range of artillery, anyway?
Thinking back on history and all of the human interactions I've observed, it seems that true violence stems from a perceived imbalance of power. When one individual or group seems to hold an advantage and the motivation to employ violence...violence ensues. If my theory is correct world peace is not likely to come to fruition until every nation has effective nuclear strike capability.
In response to today's nuclear weapon test by North Korea the United Nations has activated their Quick Reaction Typist Team to being drafting the customary firmly worded letter. Expert linguists will be holding meetings for the next few months to refine a specification for verbiage of appropriate strength to correctly and effectively deal with this issue. Iran will chair the committee, and Libya will sit. Venezuela has already filed an objection to the process as discriminatory and inappropriate.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
" ... So far US, UK, Russia, France, China, and maybe Israel all have nuclear weapons capability. ..."
US, Russia, France, the UK, and China built and tested nukes around 50 or more years ago; the testing is considered important when you talk about who has and who does not have the capability to wage nuclear war. It's not a coincidence that these are the permanent members of the United Nations Security Council ... it was essentially the card you needed to be invited to the party (China was invited late).
Since then, three others have tested weapons, which is the gold standard for whether they have nukes ... in other words, you can't lie about it. That is India, Pakistan, and North Korea.
I see you include Israel, which is in another category where they are widely believed to have nukes, some people in high places actually know the answer for sure one way or another, but they deny they do and have not tested a weapon, making it clearly possible to lie about it.
For some time South Africa was in the same category, but they have voluntarily dismantled the six bombs they had at one time assembled, and like Israel they have never tested a weapon. Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine have relinquished the bombs they inherited as a result of their owning collective property, including military equipment, in the old USSR.
The above list is the one agreed upon by the US State Department, amongst others. But, there are other lists with other criteria.
Then there is the list of countries that are considered capable of building and deploying a nuclear weapon within six months time or less (1), but for whatever reason have not built any. That includes nations with mature domestic nuclear industries and large amounts of weapons-grade material like Japan, Germany and Canada, and a few that have might be able to build one, or might not, like Brazil, which has voluntarily moved all it's weapons-grade material out of the country (less than 1 Kg remains, not enough to build a nuke).
There are currently 40 non-nuclear nations with available bomb-making material on hand in the form of highly-enriched uranium, and that includes at least one in every continent save Antarctica. Some consider any nation with nuclear power facilities to be nuclear capable, which is a bit of a stretch in my mind, but if you agree, that's 44 nations.
Pakistan is the source of most of North Korea's nuclear bomb-making ability, and it's well documented, not Iran as at least one poster here suggested. Pakistan recently (9th February 09) released Abdel Qadeer Khan, the architect of Pakistan's nuclear program, from house arrest, which he was under for five years as punishment for selling nuclear secrets to North Korea (as well as a few others). At roughly the same time the United States imposed sanctions on Khan, 12 other individuals, and three companies. The United States claims that these individuals and companies are part of "an extensive network" under Khan's direction that offered or may still offer in exchange for money "one-stop" shopping for countries aspiring to have nuclear weapons.
There are about 27,000 built and presumably working nuclear weapons on Earth with around 2.000 deployed in missile launchers available for immediate use worldwide.
(1) According to the Board of Directors of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists based at the University of Chicago, the same people with the Doomsday Clock. You know they've been at it a while because they use "Atomic" instead of "Nuclear" in their name ;-)
Links:
http://www.thebulletin.org/
http://www.cnsnews.com/Public/Content/Article.aspx?rsrcid=43235
4) Koreans are crazily patriotic. They denounce everybody. They insist on serving kimchi with French food (I love kimchi, but, um... Do we serve ketchup with pulgogi in the US???), just to assert their Korean-ness. It's insane. They bitch and moan about Japan and burn the Japanese flag every time a politician has the audacity to honor Japan's war dead, despite the fact that a large percentage of their business comes from Japan and they have just basically copied the Japanese economic model--even where it makes no sense to their situation. Korea is nuts. Both Koreas. Crazy. A history of playing second-fiddle to whomever else was in power has bred a keen inferiority complex, which they overcompensate for. So saying they hate America is not really the whole picture. They hate everybody.
It's not that bad these days. Nationalism is slowly creeping away in this country and is now confined more to embittered adjosshi and ajumma than to the population as a whole. Korea isn't the hive mind it once was, at least not on the surface.
It's not wise to label an entire group of people. The sort you're speaking of limit their crazy to protests and public places. Most Koreans aren't too keen on them. The future policy-makers of South Korea have more in common with American youth than their fathers and grandfathers. I blame Westernization and the internet.
Chemist #1: "I have a plan for a wonder molecule that can cure cancer and end world hunger."
Chemist #2: "Fuckin' A! Let's see it!"
Chemist #1: "Um... well, it turns out the reactants in the intermediate steps are so unstable we'll never be able to make any visible amount."
Chemist #2: "Huh. Oh well, back to the drawing board then."
The problem with this idea is that it might get things done. The point of the US government, and I would say most governments today, is everything is supposed to be debated endlessly by multiple bodies. Often as not, the result is a lack of agreement and it turns out that nothing is done.
That is the whole point. You don't want to make government "efficient". The structure of the system is designed to place as many roadblocks as possible in the way of accomplishing anything. The point is that if it is extremely difficult to get anything done, then only the very most important things that almost everyone can agree on will get done.
If it wasn't this way, if we had "efficient" government, we would have government involvement in every aspect of life and commerce. I don't care where you live - if there is more than single deliberative body that is involved in lawmaking it is a system that is designed to do as little as possible. And for the most part, it is working just fine.
We neither need or want lots of new laws, regulations and government guidance.
I think your figures are wrong. When I made my military service in the artillery our guns could shoot about 21 km and they where of an older model. The newer model could shot further and this was standard 15 cm artillery.
As far as I know, battleships of WWII could fire to the horizon and could possible fire beyond it today with better aiming - according to Wikipedia an Iowa class battleship could fire it's 40cm guns at targets 39km away.
I wouldn't be suprised if NK has artillery that can reach at least 40 km which is close enough to hit Seoul if you add chemical or biological weapons.
Yep, the stuff is still front-loaded. Several years ago on Nightline, when Ted Koppel was still host, he asked the retired American general who had been in charge what would happen if worse came to worse and the balloon went up. The old warrior thought for a moment, and responded "We would see a period of high-intensity warfare not see since WWII, if then." I still think that that's the scariest thing I've ever heard on television... and it's a scenario which might yet play out. The DPRK couldn't sustain high-intesnity warfare for as long nowdays, but punching big holes in Seoul would be the least of it...
October 9, 2006, not 2008.
But honestly... are we going to debate whether a US president, sitting or past, is responsible for the actions of KJI? That guy is a nutjob and an egomaniac and to pretend that he's only that way because of the behavior of the US is dangerously naive.
But honestly... are we going to debate whether a foreign national leader, sitting or past, is responsible for the actions of [GWB and his cabinet]? That guy is a nutjob and an egomaniac and to pretend that he's only that way because of the behavior of any other nation is dangerously naive.
...
League of Arab States: If you do, we'll switch oil trading to euro completely, and stop selling it to you.
USA: That would totally fsck our economy AND industry, man.
LAS: So don't do it then.
USA: Let's get... mmm... Somalia?
Can you show me a single nation that followed, or even approximated, Communism? All I see is a bunch of fascist dictatorships using Karl Marx's Rhetoric to excuse their power grab.
I kinda like his idea. :)
"Don't be a martyr -- BE THE ONE WHO GOT AWAY!"
The USA place itself on first the conventional defense and now nuclear defense obligations so that our so-called allies can dump their products on the USA.
You'd have a point if there were any decent cars manufactured by U.S. companies; but for many car categories, this just isn't true. I shopped around for a car not very recently - a low-end but roomy subcompact - and not a single car from American manufacturers was appealing, or scored well on reviews. Not one. But plenty of options from Japanese car makers, and some nice stuff from Koreans as well.
I'm looking at another car purchase in a year - something along the lines of Mazda5 - and, again, I don't see any decent analogs offered by U.S. manufacturers. Meanwhile, Kia has that very nice Rondo...
In short, the problem is not with "dumping" - the problem is with American cars. Fix that, and you'll be able to compete on your merits, as it should be. That said, it seems that Obama is trying to do something there, and I hope it works out, and we'll see good and fuel-efficient cars from, say, GM, in a few years (I don't have any warm feelings for them, but more competition is always good for the consumer).
Just to float an idea here: Accepting for the sake of the argument that Korea will unify, it's a much greater threat to Japan than to China - sure it's physically closer to China, but that means very little when everyone has missiles. China with its state-controlled media etc. and relatively dispersed population could survive a small-scale nuclear attack much better than Japan; the aid history means Korea is more likely to align with them against Japan than vice versa, and it seems likely that Japan and China will be competing all over the place for the forseeable future.
I am trolling
Damn right so. Nuclear weapons seem to be great way for countries to make sure other countries arent going to attack them and that is probably why other countries are so afraid of North Korea having nukes. I really doubt they will use them for anything other than having them around for defence, because if they do there will be many countries attacking them and nuking the whole place to shit right away.
Its also a nice note that only US has so far used nukes against other countries and then they attack other countries making their own ones. quite a hypocrisy, would I say.
I think N Korea is pushing for the bomb for the same reason that Iran wants it, and why Pakistan wanted it... It gives them a seat at the grown-up table.
Everyone treats the 5-year-old holding a gun with a lot of respect.
I actually live in Seattle, WA.
Although I can hear you now, except you'll replace the refrain with "bleeding heart liberal" or something similar.
The grandparent's post appears to have a distorted view of the situation. The reaction against the Japanese are not just from Koreans. The Japanese did far worst atrocities (both in terms of numbers of people affected and the seriousness of the crimes) than the Germans did. Can you imagine the reaction in the western world if Germany started honoring they WW2 veterans along with Hitler and erected a monument? (I know I'm hitting Godwin's law on this, but it's the truth) Why is it unfair for Non-Japanese Asians to criticize Japan for having a monument dedicated to war criminals?
>The problem of world peace is one of leadership. It's not only a struggle for resources, but a struggle for supremacy, > which guides our national policies. America believes it cannot continue to exist without controlling others. If your leaders were fair enough to declare it this way, there would be no tensions with Russia. At least, all tensions would fit in a concise dialog: US: We have a right to control everything. Russia: Fuck off. After which we could focus on discussing stuff that really matter.
>So when you hear people chanting Death to America, its meaning is more along the lines of "Fuck those assholes" than "We want to kill all Americans".
Then they might want to re-think what they are saying and to whom they are saying it.
When some boy comes to my door and say, "I'd like to rape your daughter" when he really meant, "I'd like to take your daughter out on a date" he shouldn't be surprised at the reaction he gets.
>Have you ever said "I'm going to kill somebody"?
No.
>Ever said "Damn it"
Yes, though I don't think hammers, nails, etc., mind too much about that one.
>"Damn them"?
No.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
My Korean is a bit rusty but "adjosshi and ajumma" would translate as males and females in the ballpark of 50-70ish age?
And big: not possible to mount on a Taepodong-2
Although, mounted on bigger, American dongs, it works just fine.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
Actually from a strategic point of view, you've got to admire the North Koreans in this respect. They had some artillery from the Russians and Chinese from the Korean war. They bought some since, and manufactured copies locally. None of this was very expensive, even for a basket case like North Korea. And yet it gives them something which can deter American or South Korea just as effectively as a stock of ICBMs.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
I have had a theory that the US would not need to engage from a military standpoint at all to crush NK. All that would need to be done is to drop un-ending planeloads (for maybe six months, so not totally un-ending) full of rice, in nice 10-lb bags on parachutes, into the country. Everyone in NK would be so damn happy to stop eating wood and dirt (and have the energy that comes from real food) that they'd rise up. Rice bombs, my friends. Let's kill 'em with kindness.
.. pa-ra-bo-la, pa-ra-bo-la, 2 pi R, 2 pi R, where's your latus rectum, where's your latus rectum, 2 pi R
What could China do with our debt, sue us? We know the serial numbers of every bond theyve ever bought from us, and we could simply declare we are keeping those payments in escrow because China is the worlds biggest human rights violator. As long as they play our game, we keep the interest checks coming.
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I wouldn't use the word "admire". I'd say I respect them as one would respect something or someone truly dangerous, capable of inflicting great harm. I do agree that it was a good strategy, from the position in which they were (and are). The fact that they placed themselves squarely in the position of a pariah state allowed them also to massively deploy chemical warfare, which amplifies the devastating effect of aforementioned artillery. All in all, "well played".
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
OK look at this issue at the micro level.
If you as an individual borrow a LOT of money, and then default on it what happens?
A) The person that you defaulted on stops lending.
B) Others either stop lending or slow lending.
C) Guildo breaks your legs.
Now what happens if your lifestyle is say a 1000$ a day crack habit, yet you only make 100$ a day? You are also unable to get anyone else to lend you the 900$ shortfall.
Well lets just say your lifestyle will change, probably with the addition of a cardboard box. Also your ability to buy crack will be limited, because no one will trade with you. Your currency is worthless, because you don't pay your debt, and you just print money of no value, hyper inflation occurs. You are now forced to use other methods of trade to feed your crack addiction.
Colourful as that description is, if you want a macro example, look at the USA, UK, Egypt and the Soyuz Canal after WW2. The UK wanted control of the Soyuz Canal, and together with France were willing to invade Egypt to get it. The USA fearing further instability and owning the largest portion of UK debt (which from the war was a lot) told the UK if they did this they would have to make good on their debt. The UK knowing that this would essentially destroy their economy quickly capitulated and did not invade Egypt. Does any of that seem remotely the same? Sure does to me.
Oh and as for the escrow idea and bad human rights.... I personally think credit card companies are a buch of jerks, but I still have to pay them. If I don't I will certainly get in trouble, not only with the one I don't pay, but ALL of them, and any other institution that lends me money, as my Credit Score will be shot (which is really just a representation of confidence).
Also the thought of Human Rights influencing business brings a tear to my eye.
That excuse would never hold water. China has been a human rights violator for a long long time, yet business is good. The USA does business with all.
ALSO on top of all that the USA has about zero international credibility in so far as human rights violations go right now. So unless they want to bring down the comedy house and drop the mike, they might want to hold off on that statement.
North Korea isn't above burying 20,000 tons of TNT equivalent high explosives for propaganda purposes.
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Yep, and my best friend humiliated me in front of my wife. I forgave him. Friends do that.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
Humiliating you in front of your wife and deliberately attacking and sinking an allied country's vessel are very different things.
Both sides concluded it was an accident caused by mistaking a ship in an active war zone for an enemy vessel. Not exactly a deliberately hostile action. Now, if you want to get into the mutual spying, that's a whole different matter...
$_ = "wftedskaebjgdpjgidbsmnjgcdwatb"; tr/a-z/oh, turtleneck Phrase Jar!/; print
Official story means shit when no one on our side truly believes it was an accident.
Newsflash, there are other countries besides Venezuela. Countries like Chile and Columbia (supposedly US allies interested in free trade), middle countries like Brazil and Argentina (not Chavezlike but certainly not interested in free trade). But there are a lot of poor people there and often the poor people far outnumber the rich people. Here in the US many of the poor people don't even bother voting, in fact many of the rich people don't even bother voting. In some south american countries (like Argentina) voting is mandatory. Every disinterested poor person or rich person has to vote. So rather than pandering to older people with a pole up there ass like here (and the corporations who donate money), politicians need to pander to the typical poor demographic with policies that benefit them at the expense of rich people.
And Hugo Chavez is actually pretty smart (though he appears as a bumbling idiot on the international stage). It's not the smart people who vote for him. It's the poor people who he keeps making social programs for. They'll keep voting him until the end of time. There are many more poorer people than wealthy ones so he is set.
In the US we have a similar thing. In the north generally democrats are voted in no matter how badly they suck in many cases and in the south generally republicans are voted in no matter how hard they suck. Then there is room to swing things occasionally. But generally the presidential election comes down to a few states. Things like trying to make abortion/gay marriage/etc. election issues also serve to polarize people into voting for a candidate even if 99% of that candidate's platform is total crap. So basically welcome to reality.
I'm going to say yes as well. But I think even G.W. wouldn't be able to allow that to go with his Bible he is the next coming of Jesus complex.
Basically I'll give him some credit. After all he did graduate from a good college, so I think on some level he can think for himself. And even though he may be delusional there is a limit where even he will realize HEY I can't do that...I think Bush meant well and was just a bumbling idiot.
Cheney and Rove I don't know. Cheney is no idiot. I think funneling money to is company Haliburton or whatever was no coincidence. And even now he defends torturing people. So he is quite willing to abandon his humanity when it suits him. And like Scooter realized he's also ready to throw other people to the wolves as long as it suits his purpose. Basically he should be Emperor Cheney.
If congress wasn't such idiots they should pass further laws checking the VP's power immediately to make sure there are no future emperors. And while at it the president's power should be scaled back....
What? Like Kamchatka and Pevek?
I'm gonna need a spec.