Slashdot Mirror
$33 Million In Poker Winnings Seized By US Govt
An anonymous reader writes "A New York Times story reports that, 'Opening a new front in the government's battle against Internet gambling, federal prosecutors have asked four American banks to freeze tens of millions of dollars in payments owed to people who play poker online. ... "It's very aggressive, and I think it's a gamble on the part of the prosecutors," Mr. Rose said. He added that it was not clear what law would cover the seizure of money belonging to poker players, as opposed to the money of the companies involved.' Many players are reporting that their cashout checks have bounced."
Hello.... Government....
Don't you have more important things to be thinking about than `internet poker`?
Like an economy on the rocks?
or maybe nearly 10% of the folks in this nation who have no source of income?
Honestly, I'll never understand who goes through our governments minds... they do nothing but waste time, thus waste money... and people wonder why this nation is on the verge of collapse...
42 69 6C 6C 20 47 61 74 65 73 20 69 73 20 61 20 77 68 6F 72 65 21
First, you ahve no garuntee you will get paid.
second, you ahve no way of knowing if it's fair.
You can skew the odds 10% in the houses favor, and no one would notice. probably more.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
"It's very aggressive, and I think it's a gamble on the part of the prosecutors," Mr. Rose said.
The prosecution should be brought up on illegal gambling charges.
Who Trusts Online Gambling Anyways? Quite honestly I think the gov is just worried that online gambling may be a simplified way of laundering money.
They may successfully grab the money of these unfortunates, but then people will stop depositing winnings in US banks. The internet does not respect borders or jurisdictions.
more cowbell
Honestly, I wondered why this hadn't happen sooner.
Now, instead of the people taking a risk of getting cheated out of their money, they 100% did get cheated out of their money.
The companies should be allowed to pay-out what has already been accumulated, but no more after that. There's no guarantee whatsoever that the gamblers themselves weren't going to pay taxes on the money that they won.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
I live in the Washington DC area - a place where you can't get a legal hand of poker dealt for literally 200 miles around. There are still plenty of really big games around here - you just need to bring a firearm to some of them.
It sounds like a great idea to me to push poker off of a safe online format and into illegal and sometimes dangerous poker rooms. Sure many people will choose not to gamble - but what exactly is the cost in lives that justifies that?
I play on FullTiltPoker all the time. It's safe and I can play for literally as little as 10 cents for a full tournament. How is that worse than having some of the same people venture into big games that aren't legal, they can't afford? You think gambling is a problem? Wait until those same people with gambling problems get in front of a loan shark, or shot because they can't pay.
Great move.
Well, back to rejecting software patent applications.
Ah, you're missing the big picture...
Since the laws against internet gambling are themselves illegal, it's important to put the casinos out of business so that they can't keep on embarrassing the government and claiming compensation year on year.
Nothing more needs to be said.
Except, maybe.. that the prosecutor(s) should be fired, forced to wear yellow, and barred from working with or for the American government for the next 20 years.
How far America has fallen from the beautiful ideal of the land of the free. :(
A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
And somehow gambling isn't rigged in Las Vegas? LOL!
The House always wins, always. No matter where you are. If they didn't then they wouldn't be in business.
I've got a great idea. How about the government makes a list of the most important issues facing the United States today. Hell, I'll even be happy to let the party in power at the moment dictate the order of this list.
Where do you all think internet poker falls on that list? Is it even in the top thousand?!?!
in poker anyways, the house makes its money on the rake. which is, each pot it gets a small percentage (usually this is capped at a few dollars). So the house has every reason to make sure it's cards are random, as people will perform statistical analysis on the cards dealt, and it makes no difference in terms of how much money they make. They want you to play more/bigger hands. So in poker, you're not really competing against the house, just other players and to make money you need to be better than the other players by percentage of the rake.
And somehow gambling isn't rigged in Las Vegas?
They don't build billion dollar casinos from winners.
I know that, but it's online. You know you are playing against real people how? you know the computer isn't feeding you a 'good' hand and someone else a better hand? how do you know the computer doesn't change the hands you can't see dependant on the pot?
You can't. And since they are over seas without regulation you have no way of knowing.
SO you get the normal house pot, AND the winning from some other player.
It's a trivial scam. Considering the history of gambling houses, and shady people who use the internet it's a risk.
I wrote a poker software package that did all that for SnGs in 99.
Trivial.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
What if I were a player, and honestly pay taxes on my winnings? What gives?
Furthermore - As someone who used to partake in the online casino gambling industry (as a participant):
Most online gambling might be an outright lie. But in the case of online poker, the house took a rake, just like in the real casino. In fact, I managed to even cash out a few winnings before I lost interest, and then it became illegal. It was *possible* for the online casino to have a ringer that got stacked decks... But I seriously doubt that any of the mainstream sites would use that tactic especially since there was:
1) A metric F ton of competition from other casinos.
2) The cash they raked anyway was pretty darn good.
3) No risk on their part... They just needed to provide a service.
I was absolutely shocked that all online gambling was banned... until I saw that casinos and racetracks were the primary fund^H^H^H^H beneficiaries of the law. But IIRC the real selling point was that it was treated as unreported income for most of the users. That translated directly to lost tax receipts. I personally thought that the govt could have worked with the sites to find a way to slice off some of the winnings, or to get the sites to properly report losses and gains of the members. I'll assume that the reason they didn't was because the sites were mostly offshore.
I happen to be a better than average poker player. Just today, I played in the $60 Freezeout at a local casino (died pushing an 18 outer), came home, played some low-limit NLHE and Omaha H/L PL on PokerStars and Full Tilt.
Joined the PPA - Poker Players Alliance - when it formed and hoped the UIGEA would get some attention. Well, not the way we hoped!
Since I make the vast majority of my poker money from live games in brick and mortar casinos, this newest stupidity doesn't hurt my bankroll directly. It does however, limit what I use online poker for...practice. I can play 4-6 tables at one time online, so I can see many, many more hands per hour than live at a single table.
I do own poker simulation software, so I can use that for a similar purpose. The issue is that the software AI is nothing like a human opponent.
I don't know the numbers the PPA is telling Congress, but I recall reading that if internet poker were taxed, the annual nut was over $10 billion. That's not small change.
This is a prime example of solving a problem that doesn't exist in the most ignorant way possible. Give me a freaking break.
I am my own gestalt.
It will be fun to see how American conservatives respond to this, seeing how they balance their desire to purge us of our moral evils with the desire to scream that Obama is a communist for seizing people's hard-earned property.
Dislike the Electoral College? Lobby your state to join the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact.
They probably sued the money first.
US v $124,700
Civil forfeiture is nothing more than an end run around the 4th and 14th amendments.
Besides, if money can be sued by the government, and thus deprived of its liberty, doesn't the money have the right to legal counsel?
What about the money's right to 5th amendment protection against self incrimination? ...need I go on?
Wait, what? You wrote a software package that did what? Explain this please.
This is just the start of what a Gov't scrambling to increase revenues will do. I have an equation that will amuse everyone. Insurance company that was to big + Banks that were to big to fail = ???? Yep a Gov't that is to big to fail, hide your wallets everyone. This is only a preview of whats to come. Guess what else I don't blame this on Obama or Bush for that matter. I blame the citizens. We must become a nation of informed citizens if we want to compete in the global market in the future. Time to make some tough decisions...
Will the WTO give Antigua and Barbuda 33M more.
Will us gov be able to hit a over seas bank that you have money at?>
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I thought the Democrats were working to legalize Internet poker again.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Yes, it's remarkable that the US is pursuing this weird, illegal vendetta against international online gambling when recent legal decisions have conclusively proved that its actions are unsupportted by anything approximating a legal right. The NY Times apparently knew this back in 2004, but it has apparently forgot by now.
The WTO's decision regarding the inability of the US, or its constituent States, to prohibit international commerce in the culturally protected arenas of sport and gambling is clear and, for a massive bureaucracy, surprisingly understandable. I think we can expect a lot more legal cases against the US by countries with offshore gambling economies. The WTO withheld awarding Antigua and Barbuda virtually unlimited license to duplicate any or all intellectual property copyrighted within the US. That could have cost billions, and really pissed off Microsoft. In a followup case, given persistent recidivism by the defendant (the US), a larger award might be more possible.
Da Blog
History
In early January of 2006 two Texas Hold 'Em players began a search for a new form of poker. Using aspects from other card games, a new breed of poker was created. By adding a new skill set to such a hugely popular game like Hold 'Emâ¦ooMBaa is the latest craze to hit the poker world! No chips required!
Objective
Like all other poker games, the best hand wins. An understanding of poker hands and basic Hold 'Em strategy is required for this game. Unlike Texas Hold 'Em it is not always in the player's best interest to hold the cards that he is dealt. In fact, the player may not have the luxury of holding onto his cards at crucial points during the game and that is what makes ooMBaa revolutionary!
Rules
Two Player game
Best hand wins
Match is best of five games
Alternate dealing, cut high card for first deal
Basic deck of cards used, no jokers
Terms
The Board: the location of the community cards consisting of at least 3 and no more than 5 cards
The Pile: the remaining cards after the deal
Re-shuffle: if there are no cards left from the Pile at any point during the game, the Trash discard pile is re-shuffled and the game continues
Empty spot: when there are 3 cards on the board, there are two empty spots; when there are 4 cards on the board, there is one empty spot
Knocker: person who knocks, signifying the beginning of the end of the game
The Deal and the Draw
Each player is dealt two cards face down and flop is dealt face up (no burn). The player opposite the dealer goes first. Any time a player has less than two cards, he or she must immediately draw until the hand has two cards.
The Turn
A turn consists of either altering the opponent's hand, or possibly altering your hand. This can be done in numerous ways.
At the start of your turn you have one option to try to alter your opponent's hand by either asking for a suit or asking for a number. If you choose to try this, you must select a primary and secondary location on the board for your opponent to fill if they have one or both cards matching your criteria (see figure 1). Keep in mind, that a location may correspond to an existing card to be replaced, or an empty spot. If your opponent's hand is altered, your turn is over. If you don't try, or you fail to alter your opponent's hand, your turn continues.
If you do not alter your opponent's hand, your turn can be used to alter your hand. You can:
Swap one card on the board for one card in your hand
Remove one card from the board if there are more than three on the board
Draw one card from the pile and
replace a card in your hand
add to an empty spot on the board if one exists
discard it, and choose not to alter your hand
The Knock
Play continues until one person thinks they have an unbeatable hand and knocks. A player can only knock on their turn before any attempt to alter a hand. The opponent then has one last turn. If the opponent fails to alter or chooses not to alter the other player's hand the game is over after the opponent's turn. If the knocker's hand is altered, the knocker refills his or her hand as mentioned above.
The person who knocks can choose to fill the board if there are still empty spots after any final action by the knocker's opponent. The best five card hand wins. In the case of a tie, neither player is awarded a win and the deal alternates with the next game in the match.
that cheated?! like all "computers" in games necessarily do. and I think he meant 'for shits and giggles.'
What I want to see is legal (or at least allowed bank transfers) for casino games like slots, blackjack and maybe roulette. These are all extremely easy to rig, will draw millions of US citizens in with the hopes of a quick buck and make the operators very, very rich.
This can all be operated overseas without any possibility of government interference or regulation, just as soon as the credit cards companies will allow transfers to such businesses. Poker is a drop in the bucket, and certain is meaningless in terms of getting huge returns on gaming. The real thing happens when they legalize transfers for gaming, period.
Hanlon's Bane (apparent source):
To make full use of people who have submitted to Hanlon's Razor, never admit to malice which can be explained as stupidity.
"That." Isn't it obvious? His program had sex.
Oh, no, I guess not. That would have been, "did it", not "did all that". I guess I'm confused.
The CB App. What's your 20?
You know you're playing against real people, because you can see them making trivial mistakes like pushing all-in with marginal hands, calling with a draw against pot odds, playing crappy cards that often fold to big raises pre/post flop, etc. A reasonably programmed bot would not make these kind of mistakes, or it would be losing more money than it would be gaining.
You know the computer isn't feeding anyone hands, because so many people play these games that it would have been found out sooner or later (probably much much sooner than by just looking at random card distribution and comparing with actual cards: for instance, say lots of cards are showed down and someone wins all the time, despite making erratic decisions post-flop that don't match their hand strength... in the short term this would indicate either a lucky newbie or an insanely skilled professional who is changing up his game constantly to keep you from reading him, but in the long term, it becomes more and more obvious that the cards are stacked.
Same reasoning for changing cards after the flop, because say you limp with 9/8 suited and then your cards change to kings. now, you should have raised/reraised with kings pre-flop, to get rid of all the limpers so that you're only facing 1 or 2 people, for maximum winning odds. so limping with kings would be a negative equity play, and people would notice if you kept getting good outcomes despite terrible play.
Lastly, these card rooms are regulated and taxed in their own countries, and they have to uphold the image of being fair and even actively scan people's computers for cheating software to keep their customers, because of the huge competition between card rooms that would leave a cheating room deserted almost overnight if they were found out.
Online poker (or any other gambling) is illegal. Apple meet orange.
I cashed out $200 a few weeks ago from Full Tilt and it was released successfully to my bank account. I guess the rest of my bankroll is stuck. I cannot even fathom how the government thinks thy can lock up my money like this.
Poker should be legalized. It is not gambling. The casino only takes a rake.
Remember... ZG9uJ3QgZm9yZ2V0IHRvIGRyaW5rIHlvdXIgb3ZhbHRpbmU=
Seriously? WTF? What will it take. I am grabbing my flaming pitchfork. Had to consolidate the torch and pitchfork to save money.
The love of good Whiskey,Woman,Weed is all i need.
Do you know what the concept of sovereignty is?
All countries possess it and can't be subjected to rules or laws they don't agree to be subjected to. Some countries have waved their sovereignty in some respects and actually allow international bodies to create laws that they have to abide by. The US is not one of them. The WTO was out of line in their ruling, they tread in areas that wasn't under their jurisdiction by treaty and stomped over other treaties and governing bodies like WIPO.
The WTO's governing body is made up of countries that don't like US foreign policy and the ruling was an obvious retaliation to that effect. The leadership of the WTO rotates every so often to give other countries equal say, in this case, that say was abused. There was no basis in obligations for it and the supposed remedy is illegal by other treaties in effect.
You can't. And since they are over seas without regulation you have no way of knowing.
Except that you can record every hand you play and statistically analyze them. If there's any funny business like somebody else having pocket aces when you have pocket kings more often than chance allows, it would eventually be discovered. That's how the recent cheating at UltimateBet was uncovered.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
Reading through this it is amazing the ignorance shown in a lot of the comments.
To elaborate - I will come out and say it. I play poker professionally online. Mid stakes limit hold em to be precise. Firstly, I have been paid in full every time I have made a withdrawal. There are PokerStars offices (yes, real offices, with people working in them) in many countries around the world. I have bought many items, including cash bonuses, through the site store. I have received every single one (including the cash) in a timely manner and have not once had an issue. International freight is via DHL and usually arrives within a week (with no charge on shipping to me). The statement that you will not get paid just shows pure ignorance of the subject. I am sure there are some dodgy sites out there, but there are many dodgy sites out there in other activities too. I suppose you should never buy anything off a site because there are some dodgy sites?
As for fair or not, let me continue...
You can purchase quite sophisticated statistical analysis software for poker. Most (possibly all) professional and serious amateur players use it. It will break down every single part of all the games you have played and you can pull numbers on almost any conceivable situation you have ever been in to find flaws in your game ("leaks" in poker jargon). The data is stored in a PostgreSQL database for you to access if you care to write your own front end. This software stores every single hand I have ever played in. Included is analysis that shows if you are running "lucky" - you can prove mathematically if you have been "lucky" or "unlucky" with how the cards have come out - that is - if your results are skewed due to the cards being dealt giving you statistically more or less wins than you should have on average. There are some VERY smart guys playing (as one would imagine with the money that is at stake) including pros who have post grads in statistics, finance etc. I personally studied electrical engineering and am currently doing some stats study on my own to improve my game and move my play towards the holy grail that is Game Theory Optimal (which may not even exist in multi-handed poker due to incomplete information). These guys are not some country yokels who have no idea if they are being duped or not.
As for bots...
Firstly, I invite you to put your money where your mouth is, get a bot and play some mid stakes or higher multi-way poker (6-max or full ring). Your bot will be crushed. Period. Yes I know about Polaris (the University of Alberta bot which can match it with the best heads up limit players in the world). A few points to note. This is for heads up limit - more players than 2 and the game becomes exponentially more difficult for a bot to play. Bots are not all conquering in the poker world as some assume, a good player will crush almost any bot. Unlike other games poker is a loooooong way from being solved (if it can be). As for collusion, this happens unfortunately from time to time (as it does in a real casino) but there are protection mechanisms in place against it. Firstly, the sites employ poker and statistical specialists who have no other job than to keep the games honest. You can see if someone is playing statistically better than they should. Added to that, as a professional player many can quite easily spot when people are colluding on the table. If someone is caught cheating they have their entire playing account funds frozen and anybody who has played against them has their money refunded.
I have played pro live and online. I play online as I can get multiples more hands per hour against weak player in than I can in a live game. Also the rake is a small fraction of what I pay live. The only ones who say "omgz online is rigged" either have no idea what they are talking about, or are players who just suck at poker and instead of working on their game find something else to blame for why they always lose.
Plenty more to say but that will do for now...
You can statistically analyse your hands to determine if you have been running above or below what you should have been given certain situations. It is not hard to do. The only ones who peddle this nonsense are those who just suck at poker and want to blame someone else rather than improve their game "omgz online is rigged!!!1!". I have played both live and online a LOT and you will find just as many suckouts live as you do online.
Do you know what the concept of sovereignty is?
Umm, let me think. Wasn't that the idea that the Bush administration had so much trouble understanding? Oh, no, hang on, it was the symmetric nature of it that appeared to baffle them.
I thought the point of drug laws was to punish people for choosing non-corporate recreational drugs. This Bud's for you! That bud growing over there? We'll lock you up for that...
[UID-HeinzIntel]
This is all so dumb. First off they're regulated by an outside authority. Even if they weren't, Occam's Razor. They dont cheat because they dont have to. They already make a boatload of money not cheating, and cheaters ALWAYS get caught - has happened several times in the online poker world.
Why try to scam people that are already paying you money? Makes no sense at all.
1. Seizing private property is not one of the enumerated powers delegated to the government by the constitution.
2. Article 5 of the Bill of rights states: "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."
Notice the clause, "nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;"
Notice the clause, "nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."
Congress cannot make a constitutional which violates the constitution. Unfortunately however the 3 branches of the federal government have not payed more than lip service to the constitution since the Lincoln administration.
The UIGEA is bad enough (amazing that it could pass) and this is just becoming ridiculous. People have a right to use their money as they see fit as long as it does not invalidate the rights of other individuals. Spending money on poker is a personal choice. It's true that some people lose money doing so but it's their own fault and we should not be made to pay for their mistakes. What's next, if a couple goes on a vacation they truly can't afford we will outlaw vacations? Moreover, poker is popular and growing. All this is doing is creating more problems and an underground movement that will not be pretty. For example, No-Limit-Hold'em is illegal in San Jose (yes, those idiots actually decided what games they'd like you to gamble in with your own money), but do you really think it isn't played for big stakes?
Finally, poker is not gambling in the pure sense. There is AT LEAST 25% skill and over time, better players just win much more and lose less. 25% is a very large degree when you consider that in just an hour you may play 40 or more hands. It's not chess, but it is a rational game. It's far from bingo, slot machines or the lottery. Good poker players play when they know they have an edge and make plays that have positive expectation. Some of them, like Ed Miller are actually Harvard graduates with degrees in mathematics. Many of them even say outright that they are not gamblers and have never played a slot machine in their life because they know that it has negative expectation and is a mathematically losing situation.
The government cannot and should not regulate this. It's making a mockery of our tax money, capitalism as well as the idea of personal responsibility.
" and I think it's a gamble on the part of the prosecutors" ha ha ha ha, you are very funny!
6.8SPC TR of 550, l xwind at 6, drift rt at 26" drops 77". AT has 503 ft-lbs at 1403 fps. FT 0.86
The big casino folks pay a lot of money to make sure an online alternative to gambling in casinos is not created. They don't care about Poker so much, but they care very much that if poker is legal, it's only a short hop to online blackjack being legal.
paintball
Do they really think going after formal gambling will make people forget they did little to stop that other gambling racket at Wall Street?
Do you know what the concept of sovereignty is?
You're right, I don't think the concept has quite entered the US government dictionary yet. If anyone wants to look up just how complex the issue can get, these pages may give an idea..
To make people healthier.
There's all sorts of reasons.
Philanthropy.
You have it too.
You can't take it with you when you go.
You can sell your amazing elixir.
An many more.
NOTE: there was no patent on snake oil, but people sold it to profit. Now you can get to more people to sell it to but they can converse with each other and tell each other if it works.
While I don't play poker and consider it a vapid waste of time and energy better spent on doing something productive, I will say this. To everyone replying that the government is "wasting time and money" and is suggesting that there more important matters to be concerned with than shutting down internet poker. I will remind all of you of a seldom talked about and suppressed fact about our society. In a society as civilly disengaged, disillusioned, propagandized, and atomized as ours, the government will be able to get away with continuing and escalating their ongoing efforts to continue shaping society in the current negative direction by keeping up with their current and developing new means of doing what it does: engaging in social control while multinational unaccountable private tyrannies have their way with us.
There the US demanded the removal of a sovereign government and invaded it to make sure.
Cuba likewise is a sovereign government. Doesn't seem to stop the US interfering in internal affairs of that sovereign state.
You could have sunk your 401K into an online poker site or, for that matter, lotto tickets and you'd be in about the same place right now.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Why is this modded troll?
This is NOT the case of internet gambling sites.
Please try again.
You DO know that you can cheat at REAL cards too, don't you?
Shit, all those westerns with a tinhorn with an ace stuffed up their sleeve and you think that internet poker is bad because you don't have real cards...
signing up to the WTO.
The one about not creating an artificial barrier to free trade.
Which banning only FOREIGN internet gambling (not domestic) is.
So your sovereignty is broken the same as Saddam's.
"Slashdot requires you to wait between each successful posting of a comment to allow everyone a fair chance at posting a comment.
It's been 26 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment"
Did someone say that it was a 30-second delay for posting???
Why do they care about poker but not about many other legal forms of gambling? What makes online poker worthy of the government's time? Are they using the criminal law to prop up government sponsored monopolies in gambling?
One word: Lottery.
"Who modded this informative? Whoever it is must've been smokin' some of that martian pot!"
In "Who can steal more" competition. I believe this time they "score" more $$$ than mafia in the famous airport robbery.
Do you know what the concept of contracts is?
You sign a contract, and stick by the rules, and if you break the rules, you suffer the consequences outlined in the contract.
The US signed the WTO contract, then violated them by making foreign gambling illegal, while keeping US gambling legal. The WTO used the power granted them to punish the US. Among the powers of WTO is they handle international IP (imaginary property). If the US leaves the WTO, the US loses their IP right internationally. In this case WTO is being nice, and only offers two small countries hurt by the illegal US rules to ignore US IP.
The US Government, since the Great Depression, has made it's chief aim the employment of as many people as possible. The only way this goal can be accomplished is to grow the government without bounds. The only problem is, the government doesn't actually create revenue in the real sense (yes, they do print it out of thin air, but that dilutes it's value as we're about to be reminded). Government employment amounts to paying people with tax dollars created in the private sector to metaphorically dig holes, then fill them back in. As an example, take affirmative action quota legislation, such as state/federal purchasing regulations. Historically Underutilized Businesses (HUBs) are given preferential treatment, regardless of whether or not they are currently underutilized. They don't have to compete in price with companies owned by white men. But making sure that government purchases conform to these reverse Jim Crow laws employs alot of people - mostly minorities and women who can't picture a world where contracts are awarded on merit rather than on racial or gender quotas.
You mean something like this?
Because I log 100% of the hands I play, and so do every pro/semi-pro players. It's then trivial to perform statistical analysis (the softwares logging the hands are made precisely for that). With thousands of players doing this, it doesn't take long until we know something is up. Most cheaters get caught. Or they aren't cheating good enough to affect our bottom line.
Sure, the house makes its money from the rake, but since that's a percentage of the pot, the house has a vested interest in ensuring big hands. That's also the kind of drama that makes poker most exciting. Put simply, it's never in the house's benefit for a player to have a bad hand.
I'm not saying that the online poker sites are stacking decks this way, but it's a mistake to say that they don't have any incentive.
In the 90's Electronic gambling software was going through some growth. Smarter electronic poker games.
Several friends of mine went into that industry. Some went on to online gambling.
I wrote a poker program that should how you could have fake players, and deal non random hands which would lead the actual players(AKA Suckers) into betting heavier then normal by giving them a good hand, but a faux player having better.
So the house gets the rake and the pot from their faux players.
On a large 24 hour electronic gaming system, that anount to a lot of money.
If you only did that 10% of the time no one would notice.
Rememberm in gambling 1% different can mean 10s of millions of dollars.
I said 'software package'. This was a misnomer. I should ahve said software program. I apologize, I've just been talking to vendors and doing software work on a couple of large software packages and I type that by mistake.
Even more accurately I would call it a proof of concept.
IT worked, but has no error trapping, and had all the hall marks of a slapped together software application. Meaning you would NEVER go to production with it.
Of course, the easiest form of fraud is just have a online site that actually pays a little more. Once people get wind and sign up you just walk away from the company with millions.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Agreeing to membership within the WTO is a sovereignty compromise designed to promote economic exports. As a result of membership, the USA gets protection for its exports against unfair tariffs, duties, or other illegal restraints of trade designed to exclude US exports from foreign markets. Given that until recently, the USA was a huge net exporter of manufactured goods, services, and copyrighted material, obviously WTO membership was a big deal designed to open foreign markets for US companies.
Maybe the current emotional, illogical campaign by several US politicians and political wannabes against international gaming has come about because by now the US has seen several decades of increasingly insular economic development and has become relatively decoupled from international export trade, WTO membership is no longer seen as so essential to US economic interest. Or maybe it's because the US is electing more dumb-as-a-plank politicians? Either way, the US has gained tremendously from its membership in the WTO and other countries' compliance with its market-opening directives. For the US now to turn around and persist in imposing illegal trade restraints is simply hypocritical.
Da Blog
(posting AC due to various reasons)
Time to dispel several myths about online poker. Here are some fun facts:
1. Poker is a game of skill. I know because I often play in private "tournaments" and some people consistently come near the top while others consistently suck (I personally suck but since we're not playing for real money, it does not matter much). True, there is a random element due to the cards but that argument holds in contract bridge as well.
2. In online poker, you are playing against other players, not against the house. The house provides service in exchange for a "rake" - a *capped* percentage of the winnings. Therefore it is not in the house's interest to manipulate the odds.
3. As somebody else mentioned, a lot of players will do sophisticated statistical analysis on the games they participate in and will complain, loudly, about every perceived discrepancy. Enough accusations of cheating, even if they are completely unfounded, and your player base will flock to the competition. Therefore, it is in the house's best interest to to crack down hard on every instance of cheating - bots, collusion, cheat programs running on the user's machine, etc. Poker companies work hard to detect, prevent cheating and ban the cheaters. The biggest asset of these companies is their reputation; you do not kill the goose that lays golden eggs.
4. Online poker is heavily regulated in several countries. Italy, in particular, requires that every real-money player is identified and every monetary transaction passes through a governmental gateway (google for AAMS). I understand from a different post that Australia has similar provisions.
5. It is of utmost importance for the established online poker sites to keep the players happy and coming for more. If the US government cracks down on their payment processors, they will find a way to get you your money, usually at their own expense.
To summarize: yes, it is possible to write an online poker software that will allow cheating. It is just a terrible business idea.
Yes, I do. Do you even remotely know the terms of this contract? It doesn't look like it. Do you even remotely know the conditions of the ruling or the justifications of it or the finding in the appellate panel or the appellate board before it got screwed over in arbitration? Again, it doesn't look like it.
The ruling by the arbitration panel is what is ignoring the rules, the offshore sites are specifically asking to violate US and state law in their course of trade which is not free trade or free access. Free Trade is where all parties are subject to the same rules and regulations. Try learning a little about the situation before going off half cocked. I will provide a link to some of the relevant parts but I suggest you actual learn more about this then what you favorite headline news flashed before you.
No it did not. In your fist statement, there are two false concepts right off the bat, first is in the violation of the contract in which it didn't and the second is in making foreign gambling illegal in which it didn't. The WTO didn't use power granted to them, they invented concepts that were inconsistent with reality and the laws in place. They interpreted a regulatory law as something more then it was and ignored specific exceptions and limitation imposed by the Gats treaty as well a the limitations to binding obligations. If you would have spent a small attempt at understanding what was happening, this would be obvious.
Here is a link where I outlined it more closely and no, I didn't pull the information from Wikipedia, I pulled it directly from the WTO treaty and decisions. Fuck, if it was as simply as your making it out to be, I would agree with you, but it's something entirely different and they made shit up, misconstrued facts, and made a ruling that isn't supported by either the treaty provisions or the textual and common interpretations of US law within the United States.!
Everyone knows these are just mob wars, plain and simple. The Sopranos get to control real-life casinos, and the Obamos get to control virtual casinos. Government is just a form of mafia, only the more so.
Intellectual Property: an immaterial non-entity, most fiercely contended by those with no proper intellect to speak of.
The double standards of the federal government makes the USA lose high ground. Respect the WTO when it rules against you, or stop relying on it to solve free trade issues that affect you. If I recall correctly, one of the arguments not to allow online gambling, despite the WTO telling them to, was that they couldn't guarantee that the gamblers will get their money. This became a reality because they themselves froze the assets. I see you were right all along, how silly of me to silently condemn the USA for abusing their powers when you refused to respect the WTO ruling against you.
They haven't figured out how to tax it yet, so they'd rather try to make it go away. See RIAA, etc. If they'd just get on board, everyone would be happy.
Thanks to the War on Drugs, it's easier to buy meth than it is to buy cold medicine!
Now it seems that not only are you severely challenged mentally in this conversation
Let's see. Who do I trust more? An Ed Lolington random wannabe on the internet whose first recourse is to hurl childish insults, or the decisions of several rounds of hearings, arbitration, and appeals of an international legal body with representation from around the world and across the political spectrum?
You lose. Sorry.
Upon reflection, the servers are not based in the US. The DNS resolvers are not based in the US. The depository banks are not based in the US. The players, however, are based in the US, and are exercising their freedom to trade internationally. The US is now intervening to retard the transfer of capital with very little in the way of excuses other than "Do what we say, not what we do" to its citizens.
Do you work for a US casino?
Da Blog
Thanks for you details. Your interpretation still look quite colored though.
I hope we can agree on one thing though. It is not a matter of sovereignty. It is a matter of international contracts. I replied, because I am tired of people thinking that nations and especially the US exists in some kind of vacuum and can do what they want. Sovereign nations are still bound by the treaties they sign, the relationships they build and sometimes simply the opinion of their peers.
They didn't seize winnings, they froze money the players requested be returned to them from the site, which often includes money deposited by the played and never gambled.
You can't read it, understand it, and not come to the same conclusion I did ... the only thing stopping you is laziness ... You are intellectually lazy and a moron. If you invested just a few minutes into verifying what I said, you would be in total agreement with me ... All it does is make you look like a moron.
Oh you're adorable. Is this your first week on the Tubes, or are you off your meds? Don't ever change.
Da Blog
I would say it's just as much sovereignty as it is contract because the contract limits sovereignty and the interpretations are making new limits that we didn't agree to thereby removing sovereignty. If the terms of the treaty was followed, then it would be impossible for the ruling to come out the way it did. They ultimately used the interstate horse race betting law to justify Federal approved gambling that doesn't exist. All those laws do, and did for 20 years before we signed on to the agreements, is say that if states allow off track gambling that crosses a state line, the devices and races have to be from an approved and regulated organization and track meeting the standard of certain semi-private nation wide or otherwise prominent organization.
The interesting part is that the specific justification was never brought up in the arbitration, it was just piled on without response at the end with the ruling but was never a point of complaint or justification during the proceedings. In other words, there was never any chance to competently respond to it or explain what the law meant or how the states rights and the limits on the constitution work, they more or less pulled it out of thin air. You can easily see why something like this would happen, it's because someone was looking for something on the arbitration panel instead of just mitigating the original complains which was completely dismissed. The effect is that someone went out on their own who was supposed to be deciding the validity of complains and more or less created their own complaint based around the incorrect interpretation of a law and the lack of understanding in how the US governing structure works. This is why US senators on both sides said they would start a trade war and withdraw from the WTO before following the ruling.
showing them you ignorance does help set the record straight and prevent the fictional reality that has cropped into the real world.
Dear Mr Honorary Ed Lolington, e-Lawyer Extraordinaire:
Getting in the last word does not make you right, it just makes you look anal.
Also, the historical reality is that an internationally constituted body with considerable subject matter expertise and domain knowledge has heard multiple arguments from both parties, along with appeals and arbitration arguments, and has rendered a decision that has been tested and accepted by all sides in the dispute.
Your fictional reality is that you, a random slashdot poster, claims to possess superior legal understanding of the argument and issues, and that your judgement alone constitutes the entirety of a more correct analysis of the argument.
There's a word for this.
Da Blog
The historical reality is that an internationally constituted body with considerable subject matter expertise and domain knowledge has heard multiple arguments from both parties, along with appeals and arbitration arguments, and has rendered a decision that has been tested and accepted by all sides in the dispute.
Ed "sumdumass" Lolington's fictional reality is that they, a random slashdot poster, claim to possess superior legal understanding of the argument and issues, and that their judgement alone constitutes the entirety of a more correct analysis of the argument.
There's a word for this.
Da Blog
You sound just like my niece when she was 7 years old in 2004
With your uncreative use of crude language, your dogmatism in the face of wisdom, your fondness for ad hominem attacks, and your reliance on anecdote as evidence, *you* actually sound like everyone's 7-year-old niece.
Da Blog
Your not adding anything to the conversation
"You're". Not: "your".
See, something has been added. Your grammar was frequently atrocious in your earlier screeds, but I decided to give you a free pass for those ones. You really should concentrate on getting the basics of English down, because using it poorly reflects badly on your message, no matter what you are saying. Or trying to say.
I addressed the merits of your case earlier, with regard to the physical location of the plant used to operate the gaming, versus the residence of the gamers. You argued that the WTO had no remit in this case. The WTO panel disagreed, and in accepting arbitration, the US *and* Antigua both accepted remit. You are, in effect, second guessing the legal and political teams from two countries as well as an international panel of jurists. As with idiosyncratic stock picking, there is a very, very small probability of you being correct in this instance, versus a very high probability of you not being correct in this case. I have read your bloggish/fisking-style arguments againt the WTO decision and they are unconvincing and merely reiterate or restate many of the initial arguments of the US deposition in the first round of hearings. These arguments were judged at the time to be of insufficient merit to prevent the arbitration from proceeding. Your stubborn refusal to recognise that a legally constituted body delegated to come to a resolution of this difficult problem bespeaks a cognitive difficulty in accepting wisdom.
Sometimes, you just have to admit that you are wrong. The problem is that when your intellectual capabilities constrain you from recognising the domain borders of your inexpertise, there is a high probability that you will overestimate your capabilities.
Da Blog
"it was not clear what lawwould cover the seizure of money belonging to poker players"
Eh???
OK, so the Gov't can gamble with our money to the tune of TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS betting on worn out losers like GM, CHRYSLER, AIG, Bank of America etc. AND, they don't ask us. It's only OUR DAMN MONEY, but they can gamble with it and then pass laws that WE CANNOT GAMBLE WITH OUR OWN DAMN MONEY. That's freedom and democracy??? We have a better idea. http://www.america2inc.com/ Get your stock in America today.