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Why Amazon's Kindle Should Use Open Standards

Tim O'Reilly wrote in Forbes a while back that he thinks the Kindle only has another two or three years of life left, unless Amazon wises up and embraces open standards. He came to this conclusion, in part, because of his experience deciding how to publish documents on the web back in the mid-1990s. "You see, I'd recently been approached by the folks at the Microsoft Network. They'd identified O'Reilly as an interesting specialty publisher, just the kind of target that they hoped would embrace the Microsoft Network (or MSN, as it came to be called). The offer was simple: Pay Microsoft a $50,000 fee plus a share of any revenue, and in return it would provide this great platform for publishing, with proprietary publishing tools and file formats that would restrict our content to users of the Microsoft platform. The only problem was we'd already embraced the alternative: We had downloaded free Web server software and published documents using an open standards format. That meant anyone could read them using a free browser. While MSN had better tools and interfaces than the primitive World Wide Web, it was clear to us that the Web's low barriers to entry would help it to evolve more quickly, would bring in more competition and innovation, and would eventually win the day."

315 comments

  1. I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by drmemnoch · · Score: 5, Interesting

    No way on Earth I would work hard writing or creating something to have it passed around the Internet for free. I create for my own profit, not your entertainment. Once the Internet community stops (I know it isn't everyone but it is enough to be a major problem) stealing content created by artists for profit, we will finally be able to embrace the open standards we all truly want. Until then DRM will live one in some for or other.

    --
    Those who can do... Those who can't get a certification from Cisco or Microsoft.
    1. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by QuantumG · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Heh, ya actually think the DRM on the kindle works?

      But you make a good point. Amazon has to at least pretend they are making an effort to "protect" the content.. it doesn't really matter that its trivial to defeat, the publishers don't know the difference and the authors obviously don't either.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    2. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by dattaway · · Score: 5, Funny

      If you keep your work as the internet's best kept secret, that's great by me!

    3. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Darkness404 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ...Then chances are you aren't a decent enough writer and you will just add to the pile of crap which are most books. Seriously, unless you are writing a technical manual of some sort (then usually you have a company paying you and give up all rights to the book in the first place) and won't write for any other reason other than to make a profit, your book will be crap. I don't know of a single really good author who writes primarily for profit. Sure, there are some really good authors who write and make a profit, but most have some other drive to write, especially for fiction writers. If you won't publish it, fine. I'm sure the world will be better off.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    4. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      We don't want your non-skilled non-ambitious average run of the mill shit anyhow..

      I can tell all this by your complete lack of passion of wanting people to read what you write!

    5. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by selven · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I create for my own profit, not your entertainment

      Good luck profiting or entertaining with that mindset.

      Once the Internet community stops (I know it isn't everyone but it is enough to be a major problem) stealing content created by artists for profit

      This statement, especially with the word "once" in it (implying that it's inevitable) is the epitome of the "goodluckwiththat" tag.

      we will finally be able to embrace the open standards we all truly want

      We will be able to embrace open standards only when the entire internet agrees to do things your way. Nice.

      Until then DRM will live one in some for or other.

      Given that file sharing is not going to vountarily go away, this statement becomes "information will continue to be locked down until the entire internet is locked down", which is probably true. We can't stop DRM any more than you can stop piracy.

    6. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1

      as you post content for free? /sarcasm
      Basically enough people realize when you create value, and realize they want to contribute $ to it's creation, that as long as you appeal to those people their will be a way to make money with or without copy protection. Their are a bunch of people who will do anything to avoid paying anything, if they can avoid it, sorry they will get your work for free, or some (lower quality?) similar content. Then again freeloaders co mingle with non-free loaders, so avoiding them may not even be helpful to your cause.

    7. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Lachlan+Hunt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      DRM, and other artificial restrictions (e.g. regional restrictions on sales) are some of the major reasons why "piracy" persists. Drop the DRM and offer products and services for a fair price using innovative business models and you'll find that the issue of piracy will be of little concern.

      --
      By reading this signature, you hereby agree with the content of the above comment.
    8. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by hedwards · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No it isn't, and I wish people would stop suggesting that piracy is killing services off. Because it's not. Show me a platform that was killed by piracy and I'll show you a platform that was horribly managed. More often than not the DRM just limits the number of sales and raises the number of copies necessary to break even.

      The problem is that customer service stinks and there's a belief in the entitlement to profit. Trust me there isn't one, and as soon as people start to acknowledge that the cost of an item is going to approach the marginal cost of another one, there's going to be no effort that effectively stops the piracy.

      Worse still is the fact that piracy goes way up when one has to pirate in order to use the content as one wishes. You have the right to control the distribution of the copies of your work, not what people do with those copies, and as such DRM is a pretty egregious violation of ones rights. I have the right to sell any copies I've bought provided that I don't create any additional copies to sell.

      I'm also sorry that you're so terribly misinformed about copyright law, copyright isn't there so that you can profit. It's there to maximize the amount of work being created, any profits you make are purely as a side effect of that goal. Fighting consumers to prevent them from using it on the platform of their choosing in whatever way they wish to is an egregious abuse of that right.

    9. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by bcrowell · · Score: 5, Informative

      No way on Earth I would work hard writing or creating something to have it passed around the Internet for free. I create for my own profit, not your entertainment. Once the Internet community stops (I know it isn't everyone but it is enough to be a major problem) stealing content created by artists for profit, we will finally be able to embrace the open standards we all truly want. Until then DRM will live one in some for or other.

      You're free to make that choice. But:

      (1) There are other strategies that may be more to your economic benefit. I write science textbooks and science fiction. In the areas that I'm familiar with, one good example of a highly successful alternative strategy is the Baen Free Library of science fiction books. A couple of other very talented professional SF writers who make their work available for free online are Cory Doctorow and Benjamin Rosenbaum. For a few hundred other (mostly nonfiction) examples, see my sig. (I'm not a particularly well known SF author, but here is where I've done the same thing with my fiction. My nonfiction is free online here.)

      (2) History has shown that DRM doesn't work. Back in the 1980s we went through the whole DRM fiasco before. Back then it was called "copy protection." You would buy software on a 5-inch floppy disk, and it would have various formatting trickery that made it hard to copy. Users hated it. For one thing, they couldn't back up their software properly, so as soon as the disk wore out, they had lost their investment. Users voted with their feet, refusing to buy copy-protected software. The result was that copy protection disappeared. Since then, various people have kept insisting on relearning the same lessons over and over. The outcome is always the same. DRM doesn't work, users hate it, and because users hate it, it ends up being a failure in economic terms.

    10. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by stms · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You must have missed the whole argument against DRM (if not allow me to remind you). It doesn't decrease piracy it only stops end-users from storing in the desired format.

    11. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Seth+Kriticos · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I have the gut feeling that you are doing it wrong. See I have a bunch of O'Reilly books in my bookshelf and I will probably increase that number. I really doubt I will ever get one of your books in my hand, or for that matter books written by folks of your mentality. The simple truth is, that the O'Reilly people give me a good reason to by, because they produce good books and they have a moral philosophy that I feel comfortable with. I'm actually totally happy when I buy something from them. Also DRM and proprietary standards are ineffective and very annoying which is why I neither consider buying a Kindle nor any books that are crippled by this abomination.

    12. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And so you will die out with the rest of the dinosaurs.

    13. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    14. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by davester666 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      They also 'helpfully' keep 70+% of the price end-users pay.

      Maybe if authors made a bigger stink about getting the shaft from Amazon, they just might get more sales.
      Maybe if authors didn't bitch and moan about how they should get paid extra because a machine converted text to speech, they just might get more sales.

      The world has changed, maybe consider doing something new instead of trying to stuff the genie back in the bottle.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    15. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by eldavojohn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No way on Earth I would work hard writing or creating something to have it passed around the Internet for free.

      That is fair and I'm certain you are voicing a very popular opinion among editors, artists, writers, etc. As O'Reilly mentions, though, Apple seems to have balanced this both with music (MP3s are pretty "open" to play on anything). I think what the article means by "open" is that it would be nice to be able to read this through multiple devices and not just the kindle. Your username starts with DRM and, although insanely flawed, there are ways to implement it so that numerous devices and programs can use it. Yes, I realize that a skilled developer could write a simple application with the sole intent of converting DRM files to plain text but I'm pretty sure those who want to are doing that already.

      Once the Internet community stops ...

      Let's just step back and look at the facts. Don't make any assumptions about what I'm trying to convince you.

      1. The internet is a thriving marketplace for the dissemination of digital media and is undeniably what the consumer wants.
      2. People take things without paying all the time. It might be a hardcover of your book, it might be the right to read your book. It's always been part of capitalism (I think the industry calls it "shrink" and places like Best Buy or Barnes and Noble just expect it).
      3. If you fail to put your books online you stand to not only reduce your market but also your exposure.

      I don't want to steal your book. But if I want your book, I sure the hell would prefer paying 2/3 the cost of the hardcover and having it instantly in front of me. And, I would be making far more purchases. I may not be the general populace but I think that's a pretty safe rule. The music industry is enjoying iTunes, you would enjoy it more since no one wants only Chapter 23 of your novel.

      With or without DRM/closed standards, people are stealing your work. Do you really think that making the standard in which they are saved/read/transmitted an "open standard" is going to increase your losses that much?

      I don't know what your numbers look like but I would speculate that the increased sales from people walking around with iPhones and Palm Pres and mobile devices would outweigh that. I agree there will be people trading these files online. But you can't stop that now. Do you not agree that you, as a writer, would benefit from this move? O'Reilly seems to think so and he seems to think it's great for Amazon too ... being one of the largest tech book publishers and author himself, I'm going to side with him. Especially since everyone at work talks about how awesome the Safari book service is (two coworkers are toying around with full subscriptions).

      I wish I could tell you that you have full control over this but the facts indicate that you really just have the power to delay the inevitable.

      --
      My work here is dung.
    16. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by hedwards · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Given that file sharing is not going to vountarily go away, this statement becomes "information will continue to be locked down until the entire internet is locked down", which is probably true. We can't stop DRM any more than you can stop piracy.

      That's not quite true, pirates are much more likely to win than that. It's a matter of will, and if you get enough people cracking the protection schemes quickly enough at launch, DRM will eventually go away. DRM is about control and profit, if the schemes are broken fast enough there's definitely a question of why spend many thousands of dollars locking something down that'll be cracked within a few weeks. Sure it does help with sales initially, but you're typically having to sell a hell of a lot of copies in order to break even and it does put one at a competitive disadvantage to those that don't need to sell those extra copies.

      Not to mention the fact that there's a surprising number of people that don't pirate software that doesn't have DRM incorporated into it.

    17. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Vectronic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      (Somewhat) Obligatory Don't Copy That Floppy, and the Video

    18. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by fooslacker · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's an interesting viewpoint. Let me share another with you. I own a Kindle2 and loved it from day one. I'm totally willing to buy books for it. In fact I don't really have an issue with the prices Amazon charges given the current market but I would expect them to fall as the user base grows.

      All of that said, I have decided to stop buying books from one publisher and a specific author due to unreasonable (IMO) DRM restrictions placed on the book when I bought it. Specifically it was a Doubleday book called House of Cards that opened my eyes to how restrictive the Amazon DRM can be. As a result of that experience and the fact that there was no way to know what the restrictions were prior to purchasing, I have started looking for free books and converting various third party books.

      I will still occasionally buy books from a known author that I "must" read but I do this with the full realization that Amazon could rip the content away from me at a moments notice. I don't buy unknown authors or books I may want to keep or reread any more on my Kindle. Instead I go to the library or borrow the books from a friend until I'm sure I want to follow that author. I used to just buy everything and anything I was interested in but now I'm much more careful and have started finding ways to read the books for free if I'm not interested in keeping them or they're not a favorite author. So if you're a favorite author of mine your viewpoint works but you certainly won't break into the market at least for me while your works are DRM crippled.

      Perhaps piracy is a greater problem that growing your audience for you and if so then good luck with your battle against it but for most authors I suspect growing your audience is the greater problem and at least for me DRM is a non-starter when trying to get me to buy an unknown author or a book I want to keep for multiple reads which leaves me only purchasing stuff that I know I like but don't want to keep and reread over and over again. It has really limited what I buy on my Kindle to just escapist writing that I read for recreation.

    19. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And nothing of value was lost. I doubt you have done anything anyone would bother wanting to share.

    20. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by registrar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      drmemnoch... a creator of something I actually want, and therefore someone whose opinion I care about? Or are you just some self-important writer of doggerel who wants to restrict my rights, without benefiting either you or me?

      I'm a content creator too. I do it because I enjoy it and it makes me good money. My content is paid for by government and commercial contract (mostly commercial). I have absolutely no pretension to creating content for your entertainment.

      The key difference between you and me is this: you want to restrict my rights, I don't want to restrict yours. I can enjoy my own life without asking you to do or refraining from doing anything. Unless I ask you to create something for me, in which case I will be expecting to pay you for it.

    21. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      Do you make a living out of writing science textbooks? Or are you doing it as a hobby? How many colleges are using your book as their primary text? My guess is that you are doing it as a hobby, haven't ever been paid for it and if any students are using your text they are probably your own because you run a course and set the textbook to your own.

    22. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Repossessed · · Score: 1

      "I don't know of a single really good author who writes primarily for profit."

      Heinlein did.

      --
      Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite (TM)
    23. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Fizzol · · Score: 1

      "Only a fool ever wrote for anything but money." -- Dr. Samuel Johnson

    24. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by bcrowell · · Score: 5, Interesting

      How many colleges are using your book as their primary text? My guess is that you are doing it as a hobby, haven't ever been paid for it and if any students are using your text they are probably your own because you run a course and set the textbook to your own.

      57. Here is the list.

    25. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by russotto · · Score: 1

      No way on Earth I would work hard writing or creating something to have it passed around the Internet for free. I create for my own profit, not your entertainment.

      A 100% share of nothing is still nothing. And that's about what DRM will get you. If you manage to succeed in selling despite the DRM... you'll be pirated anyway.

    26. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by westlake · · Score: 1

      They also 'helpfully' keep 70+% of the price end-users pay.

      Try self-publishing through other channels and see how much you net.

    27. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by ScrewMaster · · Score: 5, Funny

      How many colleges are using your book as their primary text? My guess is that you are doing it as a hobby, haven't ever been paid for it and if any students are using your text they are probably your own because you run a course and set the textbook to your own.

      57. Here is the list.

      Apparently he guessed wrong.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    28. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Boy, good thing you posted here, so I can warn you about other publishing formats that let people steal your work and re-distribute it on the internet.

      For the category of "books" the following publishing methods are vulnerable to copying:
      - Any digital format
      - Any non-digital format

      Yea, that's right. If I can read your work, I can make digital copies of them and distribute them for free. If I can't read your work... then you're not publishing it.

      Now look at it from a customer's perspective instead of a publisher's perspective. The DRM-encumbered format limits the number of devices that can be used to read it. When the person making the DRM stops supporting it, the book stops working. Also, it'll take one person an hour's work to convert to a non-DRM format and to be distributed for free on the internet, after which time your pirates will have a more convenient experience then the legal customers. Seriously, DRM hinders the first person to upload your work for several hours and people who legally buy your book just a little. But it hinders pirates NOT AT ALL.

    29. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you create solely for profit, than your products are shit anyway. You have forced yourself into a narrow minded view and now will refuse to update your strategy to the evolving times. Good luck with that, moron.

    30. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      DRM is about control and profit, if the schemes are broken fast enough there's definitely a question of why spend many thousands of dollars locking something down that'll be cracked within a few weeks. Sure it does help with sales initially

      Umm.. you just hit the nail on the head. The argument is that the most money is made in the first few weeks of release. If your copy protection is any good (say, online activation using strong cryptography and hard to reverse engineer code obfuscation) you can price gouge for months before a crack is released. Then you can lower your price to capture the "its easier to buy than to crack" crowd.

      Of course, if your copy protection sucks as, 99% of them do, you're just gunna piss off your customers, who will bad mouth you on their blog, and that'll get picked up by the media, killing whatever buzz you might have generated for the product.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    31. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by bursch-X · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This from the not so new news: Apple offering DRM-free Music in the iTunes Music Store. Have they positioned themselves avgainst the poor artitsts, or does it simply make business sense to give users what they want and not treat your customers like criminals?

      --
      There are two rules for success:
      1. Never tell everything you know.
    32. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by labiator · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Personally,
      I think the key here is what the "artist" thinks his "art" is worth, and what the consuming public thinks it is worth are two totally different things. Make a DVD of a decent movie and sell it to me at twice the cost of a rental, and I am more than happy to buy it, Sell garbage that is entertaining only once, if at all, and I will stick to Redbox. The same goes for music. There is a reason Apple is making money at the price of iTunes, They have the right price point. In the end, the "artist" will get sick of being screwed by the media giant who only pimp them out at their convenience, and realize that self promotion is the only realistic promotion.

      --
      Win if you can... Lose if you must... But always CHEAT!
    33. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by mrmeval · · Score: 1

      http://www.geocities.jp/takascience/lego/fabs_en.html
      http://www.boingboing.net/2009/04/20/howo-make-a-300-high.html

      You will have to be good enough that fans will send you money or buy something physical such as a book from you.

      --
      I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
    34. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, bro! I too find Shakespeare a worthless hack, now RMS's fiction about licensed books - that's the shit, man!

    35. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Tokerat · · Score: 1

      But you make a good point. Amazon has to at least pretend they are making an effort to "protect" the content.. it doesn't really matter that its trivial to defeat, the publishers don't know the difference and the authors obviously don't either.

      I'm sure they're all fully aware of the capabilities of the Kindle's DRM. Since the United States has the DMCA on the books, they can just lock up anyone who breaks it for "stealing".

      --
      CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
    36. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I buy sw and really like buying sw w/the remnants of a tree in the box printed in ink that becomes toxic when sent to be recycled. I would d/l it if I got the dead tree to read rather than read it from the file and require production of my own dead tree.

      The digital format is OK except if you just want to read it, write your notes in it, get it wet while reading, dry it out and later understand your thoughts while re-reading for expansion. Devices li Kindle are nice to have large numbers of books available ... but ... I still prefer the dead tree to reference.

    37. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No way on Earth I would work hard writing or creating something to have it passed around the Internet for free. I create for my own profit, not your entertainment. Once the Internet community stops (I know it isn't everyone but it is enough to be a major problem) stealing content created by artists for profit, we will finally be able to embrace the open standards we all truly want. Until then DRM will live one in some for or other.

      No way I'm going to purchase something that suddenly collapses into a pile of unreadable bits just because new hardware has come along or the "magic key" becomes unavailable because the publisher is either defunct or lost interest in the product.

      I've got paperback books older than I am. Some are showing the "acid" paper syndrome and slowly disintegrating. Periodically I put them back together and reread them - although admittedly some of my newer books have such cheap bindings they're falling apart even faster.

      As far as I'm concerned, durable works demand durable media. Even binary ones. DRM isn't durable media.

      Sorry if this doesn't protect your income, but my job just got sent to Bangalore. Again.

    38. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Darkness404 · · Score: 0

      And Shakespeare didn't sell a single book in his lifetime. Shakespeare's main work was simply writing plays, and really, the vast majority of them were simply adaptations of older or popular works into play form. And really, Shakespeare wasn't anything special, the only reason why we have his works is because the Queen really liked his works. Really Shakespeare was nothing more than Stephanie Meyer (author of the Twilight series) of the late 1500s, early 1600s.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    39. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by fractoid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No way on Earth I would work hard writing or creating something to have it passed around the Internet for free. I create for my own profit, not your entertainment.

      And that's why I've heard of David Wong and Cory Doctrow, and would buy books by either of them in hardcopy if I spotted one in a book shop, but I still have no idea who you are.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    40. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      No way on Earth I would work hard writing or creating something to have it passed around the Internet for free. I create for my own profit, not your entertainment. Once the Internet community stops (I know it isn't everyone but it is enough to be a major problem) stealing content created by artists for profit, we will finally be able to embrace the open standards we all truly want. Until then DRM will live one in some for or other.

      Why do you think having your content do less will earn you more money?

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    41. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      Great, can you name a single person who has? No? Then why would you bet millions of dollars on it as a deterrent?

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    42. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by fractoid · · Score: 1

      Woah. Your internets is in the mail. O.o

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    43. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by civilizedINTENSITY · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "I create for my own profit, not your entertainment."

      Seems obvious to me that you can't achieve the former until *after* you've achieved the latter.

    44. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by nausea_malvarma · · Score: 1

      Once the Internet community stops (I know it isn't everyone but it is enough to be a major problem) stealing content created by artists

      Hahahahahaha! Never gonna happen! :-)

      When information is this easy to copy, we'll never see the end to piracy. All you can do is accept it, and adapt to the new digital world, where information wants to be worthless.

      No way on Earth I would work hard writing or creating something to have it passed around the Internet for free. I create for my own profit, not your entertainment.

      Good to know you have artistic integrity /sarcasm

      Seriously... make art because you enjoy it. Many great artists never saw a cent from their work.

    45. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by demonlapin · · Score: 3, Informative

      You can rip the protection from any .azw book on your Kindle. Google mobidedrm.py for more. Sadly, no crack is available for Topaz (.tpz) files - at least, not that I can find. Some online booksellers sell DRMed Mobipocket books that can be stripped of protection in the same way.

    46. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by swillden · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No way on Earth I would work hard writing or creating something to have it passed around the Internet for free. I create for my own profit, not your entertainment. Once the Internet community stops (I know it isn't everyone but it is enough to be a major problem) stealing content created by artists for profit, we will finally be able to embrace the open standards we all truly want. Until then DRM will live one in some for or other.

      You're free to make that choice. But:

      (1) There are other strategies that may be more to your economic benefit. [...]

      (2) History has shown that DRM doesn't work.

      And don't forget:

      (3) You'll be competing with millions of people who are willing to create something to have it passed around the Internet. Through all but the last tiny slice of history, pretty much all creative works were produced for the joy of creativity, and to share ideas and expressions with others.

      In the 21st century, there are a *lot* of people in the world, and lots of them have time on their hands and some of them have creative talent. You could write a Drake-type equation calculating the intersection of people that have time, talent, resources and desire, and the resulting fraction would be small, but as Internet connectivity reaches the corners of the Earth, it's eventually going to be multiplied by several billion.

      Sure, most of what all those amateurs create will be crap, but not all of it, not by a long shot. I think a significant portion of professional content creation may well get squeezed out by crowd sourcing. Not all, certainly, but I suspect that even those who want to do professional work will end up doing a lot for free, just to get known.

      Free content is big, and just going to keep getting bigger. Those who recognize it and figure out how to work with it and profit by it will do well. Those who refuse had better plan on getting/keeping a day job.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    47. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 1

      I'm a commercial writer, not an author. Margaret Mitchell was an author. She wrote one book. - Mickey Spillane

      --
      If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
    48. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Enigma2175 · · Score: 1, Informative

      Great, can you name a single person who has? No? Then why would you bet millions of dollars on it as a deterrent?

      Do you mean someone who has been locked up for violating the DMCA? How about Dimitri Skylarov? You don't need to lock up thousands for the law to have a chilling effect on innovation.

      --

      Enigma

    49. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Mista2 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      All the DRM does on the kindle is make it harder to move the same book to another device, not impossible. Bus as to only a few years left? Well Talk to Apple about a propietary locked down format for content that can be easily pirated. They won eventually because the device was easy to use, and the content was available WORLD WIDE. Wize up Amazon and the whole publishing industry. E-books have no borders or regions, just like digital music. I live in NZ and would love to get my hands on ebooks from amazons catalog, and I would buy them too, but it is restricted to US only regions, and locked to the Kindle, so I'll keep on pirating the content to get it in a format I can use. Thanks Amazon. You just keep on protecting that content 8)

    50. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by hairyfeet · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nice troll BTW, but you kinda miss one little problem with this. Here, I will give an example-Steamboat Willie is STILL under copyright. The man has been dead for nearly half a century, and yet one of his first works, when planes were made of cloth and antibiotics were just a dream, is STILL under copyright.

      Do you think Zombie Walt is cashing his checks? Nope, because copyrights no longer have jack shit to do with "creators" and EVERYTHING to do with blood sucking leach middlemen and multi national corporations. Remember that US copyright laws, which are now being jammed down the throat of many other countries, was a contract, nothing more. In return for a limited monopoly We, The People got a richer Public Domain. But the contract has been broken, our Public Domain stolen from us and our children by treasonous bribery of our elected officials.

      And if you think it has jack shit to do with the "creators" I would like to introduce you to a little concept known as Hollywood Accounting, which is so widespread they have a nice little name for it. It is Hollywood Accounting that forced Meatloaf to sue for over a decade because they had the brass balls to say Bat Out Of Hell I, one of the biggest selling albums in all of history and is STILL last I checked on the top 200, didn't actually make a dime. They also tried the same brass balled bullshit with Peter Jackson, saying the LoTR didn't actually make any money. WTF?

      So if copyrights were rolled back to what they were for over 150 years I would agree with you, but they have been hijacked by multinational corporations using treasonous bribery. So until We, The People are represented at the table again I urge all of those who are getting US copyrights laws and DMCA style bullshit rammed down their throats, as well as my fellow US citizens to ignore these illegally made laws. Laws written in backroom deals with bribes changing hands should be looked upon as the criminal act they are and duly ignored.

      And please don't bring up the "its for the creators!" FUD, because that is as much bullshit as MSFT with their "get the facts" or "IE is the most secure" horse shit. If you can't make a profit in the original 20+ years that copyrights were originally for then you suck and DESRVE to go broke, okay? Thanks to the digital revolution it has NEVER been easier to sell your product, ever. All these insane draconian copyright laws due is consolidate even more cash in the top 4%, while fucking US, our children and grandchildren by outright robbing us of our Public Domain which thanks to them is all but destroyed. Sorry, but I simply have to call bullshit and FUD on your post sir.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    51. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by QuantumG · · Score: 1, Informative

      The charges against Sklyarov were later dropped [..] He was allowed to return to Russia on December 13, 2001.

      Way to fail to even read the article you linked to.

      Idiot.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    52. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Mista2 · · Score: 1

      And yey it still keeps on being applied to digital media. Come on, Even iTunes has goe DRM free with music, they see that one as lost, but I wonder why you still can't download an unprotected movie from them? I wont buy any of their DRM content, but now they are DRM free on music, I have been buying more. The price is acceptable, I get it in a format I can use, and the quality is good. Now if I could only do it without iTunes. What a particulary sucky piece of software.

    53. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by citizenr · · Score: 1

      I create for my own profit, not your entertainment.

      and that tells me your "creations" are worth shit.

      --
      Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
    54. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      Well, they did steal almost five months of his life. That can have a chilling effect.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    55. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by QuantumG · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well yes. There certainly is a chilling effect. You can't publicly make these tools and try to sell them. Which is what his employer was doing. But everyone knew this, long before the DMCA came into effect. It really does nothing to change the "scene", and that's where the cracks come from.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    56. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by msparker · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah, I hear Cory Doctorow is starving.

    57. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by pregister · · Score: 1

      Vonnegut, too.

    58. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, as I said he was a worthless hack, writing plays for money and making sure they are not "set free" by the competition. Now RMS or Doctorow are the gift to humanity.

    59. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by rantingkitten · · Score: 1

      I create for my own profit, not your entertainment.

      Can't you write for both reasons? If I'm not entertained in some way by whatever you're writing, why the hell would I buy it in the first place?

      --
      mirrorshades radio -- darkwave, industrial, futurepop, ebm.
    60. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by daniel_mcl · · Score: 1

      Actually, Samuel Johnson, widely regarded as one of the greatest contributors to the English language, is famously quoted as saying "No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money."

      --
      I used to read Caltizzle. I was a lot cooler than you.
    61. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Korin43 · · Score: 1

      No way on Earth would I work hard to pay for content that I couldn't use how I want. I buy things so I can use them, not to make you rich. Once the content production community stops (I know it isn't everyone but it's enough to be a major problem) trying to sell content that can't be used, we will finally be able to embrace the spending of money we all truly want. Until then, the Pirate Bay will live on in some form or other.

    62. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Seriously, that's the excuse Slashdotters use to justify piracy. Concerts and speaking tours.

      .Well, that's *one* excuse. You forgot "teh evil greedy corporation" rationalization, et al, which appeals to those members of the Entitled Generations who've managed to delude themselves into thinking that they're rugged, individualistic Libertarian types while posting from their Mom's basement: They're fighting "The Man", you see, by illegally obtaining their entertainment.

      There's others, of course, but it gets tiresome restating them when they all basically amount to the same thing: Greed and selfishness (true irony, by the way).

      Welcome to Slashdot in the 21st century, where being a nerd means discussing why one deserves to be entertained by others' creations for free, rather than doing neat and interesting stuff with computers (and other things) oneself.

    63. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by sribe · · Score: 4, Informative

      Well Talk to Apple about a propietary locked down format for content that can be easily pirated.

      Uhmmmm. No! Apple supported that format (AAC + Fairplay) in addition to the worldwide unprotected (MP3) format. In fact, they supported the unprotected format first and only added the DRM-encumbered format later as necessary to strike deals with the music-distribution cartel.

    64. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      That's not quite true, pirates are much more likely to win than that.

      That's not quite true either. It's the nature of piracy that as soon as the pirates win, they lose, along with everyone else.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    65. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      Ah, if only the real world were as simple as that...

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    66. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If people who hold up Doctorow as an example would apply the same standards for the business of being a major label band as they do for self-publishing, slashdot would be full of glowing praise for how the RIAA treats their artists.

    67. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by fluxrad · · Score: 1

      stealing

      You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

      --
      "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
    68. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by KamuZ · · Score: 1

      Agreed.
      I actually had to rip some songs a long while ago using Tunebite so i could play them in my cell phone (mp3 player, no itunes support). Then they released the itunes format, i had to pay about 30 cents for the non-drm and mostly all new music is non-drm, works perfectly.
      The experience is better now.

      http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1711

    69. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by bigpat · · Score: 1

      No way on Earth I would work hard writing or creating something to have it passed around the Internet for free. I create for my own profit, not your entertainment. Once the Internet community stops (I know it isn't everyone but it is enough to be a major problem) stealing content created by artists for profit, we will finally be able to embrace the open standards we all truly want. Until then DRM will live one in some for or other.

      Ironic and amusing on so many levels. Thanks.

    70. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by spikeb · · Score: 0

      it really is not much of a loss not being able to access content made for profit.

    71. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by BroncoInCalifornia · · Score: 1

      I wonder when someone will suggest we get DRM in our eyeballs to keep us from seeing any of this evil free content.

      --

      Religion is the main cause of atheism.

    72. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by fooslacker · · Score: 2, Informative

      You can rip the protection from any .azw book on your Kindle. Google mobidedrm.py for more. Sadly, no crack is available for Topaz (.tpz) files - at least, not that I can find. Some online booksellers sell DRMed Mobipocket books that can be stripped of protection in the same way.

      To be honest I haven't looked into the details of cracking it because I'm lazy and have plenty of other stuff to do these days but my main philosophical argument is that I shouldn't have to crack it to use content I paid for in a legit manner (i.e. I want to consume it on either of my devices capable of reading it).

      The primary issue I had with the DRM is that they had the download limit set to 1. Hence once I downloaded it to my Kindle2 I could not read it on my iPhone or another Kindle (such as the DX I was considering purchasing at the time). The reason this sucks is that I use my iPhone as a time waster when waiting on movies to start or waiting at the dentist or doctor by reading my Kindle books. The built in "Whispersync" functionality lets both my devices know where I reached while reading either device and jumps me forward to that point. I really like this functionality because it means I can read most of my stuff on the Kindle but don't have to carry it with me when I'm out and about daily.

      While I could crack the DRM such that I could manually load it on the other devices I suspect that the Whispersync functionality that makes the iPhone Kindle app so useful as a time waster when away from the larger device would fail to function and I'd have to manually track pages read on each device. (I speak only speculatively and without any real knowledge here)

    73. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interestingly, this post of yours was your creative work, and yet you published it for free. What were you thinking? Honestly, I'm really waiting for you bunch of "I create for my own profit" bastards to just dry up and blow away. No one's forcing you to earn a living by writing. Go do something else. Dig ditches for profit, no one will "steal" that. Please. We're begging you. Show us how horrible the world will be without your content - we're prepared to suffer. I long to experience this moment when "the Internet community stops." Shock us all into humility. More likely, this post is likely very indicative of the rest of your work, so we won't be missing anything. I am already 100% positive we won't be losing out on the next Shakespeare or Tolstoy.

    74. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by qnetter · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Eliminate property ownership and there will be no theft, for that matter. Eliminate laws against murder and there will be no murderers, only people who kill.

    75. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Teancum · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well yes. There certainly is a chilling effect. You can't publicly make these tools and try to sell them. Which is what his employer was doing. But everyone knew this, long before the DMCA came into effect. It really does nothing to change the "scene", and that's where the cracks come from.

      Why not? Where the tools were being made and sold (the Russian Republic.... not even in US jurisdiction or the jurisdiction of the court under question) the "tools" were perfectly legal.

      In this case it was also about academic freedom and being able to make commentary about perhaps a sensitive subject to peers who are engaged in similar research (in this case cryptology). Ultimately what happened was that this person was arrested purely because of his speech, in an academic forum no less, but on the grounds of violations of the DMCA.

      This legal issue, together with 1st amendment conflicts and other similar problems with the DMCA, still hasn't been completely resolved in a legal sense, nor has SCOTUS had their crack at trying to form an opinion on the topic either. The point here really is that this law continues to be a potential sword to hang over the heads of software developers that might seem to piss off a U.S. Attorney... for whatever reason that may be.

      BTW, you asked if anybody had been prosecuted, and the answer was given to the affirmative. It doesn't matter if eventually the DOJ was embarrassed to the point of dropping charges in this case, it still was used and can be used in a heavy handed manner as demonstrated with this example.

    76. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      Meh, I asked if anyone had been convicted. If you can't even get a conviction for something as blatant as making and selling cracking tools then you're not going to get one for anonymous warez d00ds. So yeah, if someone says to me "why do we need to make our copy protection stronger? The law will protect us!", I will smile, try not to laugh at the person paying my pay check and kindly explain to them that, no, the law will not protect you.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    77. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doctrow makes very little money off his books. Go and ask him about it some time.

    78. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Technician · · Score: 1

      No way on Earth I would work hard writing or creating something to have it passed around the Internet for free. I create for my own profit, not your entertainment.

      Common error. To sell any copies, you need discovered and promoted. Reasonable prices sell. Overvalued stuff is interesting, but not enough to fork out money for it. DRM and a special piece of hardware to use it lowers the value to your customers. If this DRM worked, all my software would require a dongle and my PC would have at least 75 dongle keys plugged in. I have zero dongles protecting software on my PC. Most of my software I purchased must run without a dongle.

      In the end, common ground is required to sell software. A limited base of installed kimbles is a limited field to sell into. Your fees to even publish to it pretty much ensures a negative bottom line unless you have a secret to get promoted with enough hype to get people to buy.

      As noted in the article. The platform isn't really that wildely popular compared to say a netbook.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    79. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Enigma2175 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The charges against Sklyarov were later dropped [..] He was allowed to return to Russia on December 13, 2001.

      Way to fail to even read the article you linked to.

      Idiot.

      The charges were dropped in exchange for his testimony against his company. He was still jailed. Exchanging cooperation for freedom is a common practice. It doesn't change the fact that he was jailed and charged.

      You asked for a single person that had been jailed in violation of the DMCA, I provided one, then you start the ad hominem attacks. Who is the idiot?

      --

      Enigma

    80. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by QuantumG · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Conviction. Do you know the word or what?

      He was given bond, he couldn't pay it.

      So, I'll ask you again, has there been a single person convicted of a DMCA charge? Anyone? If not, why would you bet your business on it happening?

      I called you an idiot because you're clearly too dumb to follow a simple argument.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    81. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by DrXym · · Score: 1
      No way on Earth I would work hard writing or creating something to have it passed around the Internet for free. I create for my own profit, not your entertainment. Once the Internet community stops (I know it isn't everyone but it is enough to be a major problem) stealing content created by artists for profit, we will finally be able to embrace the open standards we all truly want. Until then DRM will live one in some for or other.

      Open doesn't necessarily mean unencrypted. It's quite feasible that O'Reilly or any other publisher could specify a platform based on open standards that still uses encryption and DRM to prevent users from distributing books around easily.

      The problem at the moment is there are all these competing fiefdoms (such as Amazon's) with their own proprietary formats, their own proprietary readers, tied to their own proprietary storefronts. And the net result is a wasteland of warring factions. It's been this way for years and nobody seems to have a frigging clue of the harm they're doing to their collective interests. Hell, it's easier to grab a book from IRC than risk the lock-in that all these vendors impose.

      People are not interested in eBooks because there is no standard and each reader is tied to its own format with token support for others (if at all). If you are an author then you should be screaming for blood over this. All these stupid proprietary formats are killing your sales. If there were a single format that all publishers, all stores and all readers implemented then sales of eBooks would skyrocket.

    82. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by dalesc · · Score: 1

      DRM helps no one achieve anything. Best selling author and former Director of European Affairs for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, Cory Doctorow http://craphound.com/ is an interesting guy and practices what he preaches. He lets you download his books from his website for free. Of course, if you want a nicely bound paper version, you can buy a copy. Of you can go to see the stage show of the book or the film of the book. I don't think he's starving.

    83. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In all likelyhood, whatever such a selfish person wrote would not be worth anyone paying for it.

      It is only in modern times that authors have had any expectation of being paid for their work (aside from being commissioned by a noble or wealthy person to write a history or autobiography).

      What content creators have to realise (and I include myself in this as a software engineer) is the reason they are doing the creation. Most likely it to earn a living. So you write some stuff, and you make a living by it, if you can.

      That's what many software people do. They do software as their job to earn a living, 9-5. They don't expect to be paid by people all over the world for it. Many millions of us write software for free also.

      Why are musicians (and now perhaps writers) so different? Why do you feel that the whole world should pay you for the experience of reading your book, even though it might be crap.

      The answer is that you have been taught over the last 50 years so by hollywood etc and the music industry.

      Everyone else in the world knows that the work they do is only worth (in dollar terms) what their employer is willing to pay them for it.

      The same goes for music and movies and books. Your books will be worth zero for many people and they will be worth purchasing for the full price for some people. "Piracy" just enables people to try before they buy. If your product is set at a price which they deem worth the value they gained out of reading it, they will pay it. So don't set your price too high.

      The other thing is, companies that implement these DRM schemes are the real pirates. Selling stuff to consumers and then effectively stealing it back years later when the company goes bust or turns their servers off, and the "content" the customers paid for stops working.

      Until musicians, movie makers, and writers start offering refunds for consumers who aren't happy with the product, the pirates have every right to enable people in trying before buying.

    84. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by DrXym · · Score: 1
      DRM is a restriction but sadly its a reality that most publishers and authors would want it.

      The best that can be hoped is that any common eBook format offered a few simple levels of DRM - none, passive (watermarking), full where full would allow 5 active devices or similar. Let the publishers decide. If the no-DRM camp gained traction they might win some converts along the way.

      Personally I don't have an issue with DRM so long as the format is portable (i.e. not tied to a vendor or service), its relatively painless and the price of eBooks reflects the inability to loan or sell titles.

    85. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      DRM's restrictions work both ways. That's something people tend to forget. And what at least the music companies by now seem to realise.

      Allowing sales of non-DRM music by the labels breaks the virtual monopoly of Apple over digital music sales. Not only can non-iPod users play music bought from ITMS (not really interesting as this is only a small part of the market), more importantly other retailers such as Amazon can sell for the iPod, giving the content providers more say in the payments and prices.

      Until the sales of non-DRM popular music (and face it: the sales of the music from the big four is like 80% or more of the market, the independent labels don't really count in this), Apple had a virtual monopoly as retailer. Both ways. They were the only one that could sell DRM enabled music to iPod holders (70+% of the market). And the only retailer that iPod holders could turn to to buy the most popular music.

      Content providers always think that DRM gives them more power and control - while it's in practice the middleman that is getting the control. And when that middleman (Apple) gets like >80% of the market... that's where the real power and control ends up. It fragments the market and kills competition, in a way that is often (paradoxically) bad for the producers.

    86. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, stunning logic. DRM is like that glass case on a fire alarm; easily broken and does nothing to stop people that want to pull it. Eliminating DRM is no equivalent to eliminating property ownership and murder laws. If he were raving about removing copyright laws, you might be able to make that logical jump, but stealing real or imaginary property is NOT equivalent to taking someone's life. So to sum up: DRM != Murder laws. (posting anon cause I modded)

    87. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by JustinRLynn · · Score: 1

      Here's that word again that people who take that position are so fond of -- 'stealing'. It's not stealing when I transmit a copy of your idea to someone who didn't pay you. It is an infringement on your artificial monopoly granted, and I do mean artificial, to you by us. If I copy a work, you have not lost anything of concrete value. Sure you can talk about 'lost potential sales' but that is completely meaningless in a real and practical sense. However, that isn't the main issue. If I follow your line of reasoning correctly with regards to open standards then the problem with them is not that they allow stealing, it is that they allow freedom. Open standards allow me to consume and use content I have purchased in the way I choose. Yes, this freedom to choose also allows me to violate your artificial monopoly but it also ensures that everyone can use and enjoy your product how they want. By forcing people into giving up their choice you are making enemies of them. You are making enemies of those who want to give you money. In what way is this a good business practice? They are your customers and they will find some way to get what they want, how they want, when they want. We cannot be stopped -- we are the audience and if we aren't pleased then we will move on to something better. Welcome to the new free market.
      -----
      Would it really be so bad if people created art for art's sake? In what way does it make sense for one person to get millions of dollars for a single hit song or a single novel for the rest of their life?

    88. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by SolitaryMan · · Score: 1

      Then just don't publish it on the internet at all! Or, if you don't want people to pass around your books without paying you, then don't publish at all. Keep it under your pillow, this is the only way to be sure.

      --
      May Peace Prevail On Earth
    89. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They didn't vote with their feet back in the 80's-90s. Formats simply kept changing. I'm sorry, but the long-view was that the copy protection floppy disks was effective because only the people who were going to steal it were going to steal it anyway and there's nothing a publisher could (or ever will) do about that. As a simple example of what I'm saying, notice that every major piece of software by the largest software development houses (including game companies) has some form of copy protection today! You still have to buy the software, and you still have to enter a key. And, you can make a gajillion copies of it today, as long as you keep your copy of the key safe for later.
      Now, the people who aren't going to pay for it, weren't going to pay for it in the first place, but they're not the target audience of the software in question. Adobe Photoshop is an excellent example - there may be billions of copies of it floating around the internet (or at least keys or keygens or cracks), but the target audience is the graphics professional who will, by virtue of the fact that it's the tool of the trade, pay for it. S/He's the target audience. Hobbiests and casual users aren't the target. It's a very very small target to begin with which is (and always has been) reflected in the price of the software. Maya, 3DStudio and almost every other graphics suite on the planet costs thousands of dollars because the actual people who use it for a living is a very small population!
      As much as you wish to dismiss it, DRM is successful in the models that it supports. Thousands of copies of DRM'd music are downloaded every minute from iTunes onto iPods. Thousands of ebooks are sold every day for the Kindle. Every day uncounted thousands of DVDs and Blue-Ray discs are sold - and that one guy in a thousand who's ripping them and putting them in a torrent so hundreds of others can get a copy - he's not even a blip to the machine that cranking out the media. For every one of those guys (including all the people downloading the torrent) there are hundreds who legitimately pay for the copy, take it home and pop it into their DVD/PS3/Whatever and enjoy the content.
      I think it's very nice that you self-publish, but self-publishing is not a new concept and frankly, with rare exception is it entirely successful. The only thing that keeps today's version of self-publishing alive is the economy of scale represented by a web-site where thousands of people can go through the minor labor of clicking a link and downloading a book. It's fine that you can use it as a loss-leader to entice people to buy your materials, but I'm sure even you will admit you don't publish anything anymore. You post a link. To a file. If anything the very definition of publishing has changed where only the interested seek out the file, download it and decide if it was worth their time or not.
      Since you're already a writer, you're already familiar with the ideas behind being published and how profit is generated (and just how those numbers are calculated). You play on so small a scale (as in the .00001 part of the spectrum) that you're not even statistically significant to what it takes to put a printed title on the shelves of the local Barnes and Nobles. Let alone, Amazon. You, and your fellow self-publishers aren't part of the equation for what drives or constitutes a publishing economy.
      That isn't to say you're not significant or interesting, it's just that you've (by choice) moved out of the game. DRM is (unfortunately) successful. It's all around you and it serves a target audience. The Kindle is doing fine because most people (those who are going to pay for it because it represents a service, not a title that they want) are going to be perfectly happy with it. Just like iPod users are. Don't like it? Don't buy it. But, it's pure hubris to think "users hate it, it ends up being a failure in economic terms." If you believe that then you really aren't paying close enough attention.

    90. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by rolfwind · · Score: 1

      No way on Earth I would work hard writing or creating something to have it passed around the Internet for free. I create for my own profit, not your entertainment. Once the Internet community stops (I know it isn't everyone but it is enough to be a major problem) stealing content created by artists for profit, we will finally be able to embrace the open standards we all truly want. Until then DRM will live one in some for or other.

      Good idea! I heard that all the artists of the world have been on strike since the advent of jpeg/gif/png, all the musicians since mp3/ogg/flac, all the filmmaker and animators since the advent of xvid/divx/etc. It's good that the authors finally join them, since they were delinquint since ascii was developed earliest of all.

      Now all the inevitable DRM to sound, music, pictures, and movies will come. Apple fell off the bandwagon, but their music marketshare is low and they'll come running back. People love DRM, it feels good when you get to stare at the FBI screen for 10 seconds and at forced previews for 10 minutes. It'll be better than now, where no one is making money off the internet. No one at all.

      And since no one at all is making money off the net, you'll be safe in your boycott of producing new material since obviously no one will step in your place to fill the niche instead. And because of that, DRM will come.

      Because obviously no one makes money writing things for the internet. Otherwise you'd see words... and articles of words, and stuff. Maybe even like an electronic newspaper online and websites that mimic magazines.

      BTW, magazines really oughta start printing on that paper that Xerox made that defies scanners and copy machines. It costs 2x more to publish, but isn't inconveniencing the customers worth it?

    91. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by mirshafie · · Score: 1

      Of course you do. You need money, as do everyone else. So maybe you should be concerned with the cut that the store puts into their own pockets. In this day and age you can use open formats and platforms to distribute your work pretty much for free, and if your content is good and you charge a reasonable price (which should be easy seeing as a large chunk of it is pure profit) people WILL buy and you WILL spread the butter carelessly.

      Don't be afraid. We come in peace from the internets. You are one of us now. We love you.

    92. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Big+Nemo+'60 · · Score: 1

      By coincidence, this morning I ran into this while checking some feeds I subscribed:

      --- quote ---
      We're always going to need writers, but the business model of their platform is going to change.

      People will pay for content if it is so unique they can't get it anywhere else, so fast they benefit from getting it before anyone else, or so related to their tribe that paying for it brings them closer to other people. [...]

      Like all dying industries, the old perfect businesses will whine, criticize, demonize and most of all, lobby for relief. It won't work.

      [ Seth's Blog: Malcolm is wrong (6 July 2009) http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2009/06/malcolm-is-wrong.html ]
      --- end quote ---

      The post was about newspapers and magazines, but I believe it might be relevant here as well.

      --
      In the long run we are all dead. - John Maynard Keynes (1883 - 1946)
    93. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by cervo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well that's why you are an absolute idiot my friend. You see there are people who photocopy books today and copy software/music. The more you lock it down with DRM the more people will break that DRM eventually. Then the break will be distributed. Even in the itunes store, often apple would recommend cracking its songs (by burning a CD and then ripping the mp3) in certain situations. Even the DVD format was cracked. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. There will always be a DVD Jon to crack it.

      But the DRM does hurt legitimate customers. I buy books and I absolutely refuse to buy e-books until I get the same rights that a normal book gives me. Over and over I hear that company x has decided to close down its DRM servers and fuck over the customer. Then all the works either become totally unplayable or the company unlocks them all. The other issue with DRM formats is that except for DVDs there seem to be multiple formats. Look at e-books, there are a variety of formats. Sony has their own format, the kindle has its own format, Microsoft had its own format, etc.. Many authors only pick one format. So it is quite often that if there is a book I want, either the author has not decided to publish to e-books at all (so I can't get it), or the author has published to only one format, so if you don't have that device you can't get it.

      Currently everyone publishes to paper so that's what I buy. And if your book is lousy which I'm sure from such a narrow minded prick who wants to fuck over the consumer such as yourself, I will sell it to a used bookstore and you will get nothing from that sale. Then someone a bit smarter than me will pay much less to realize your writing is a worthless piece of shit. But DRM meanwhile kills the used book market completely. In fact that's one thing publishes like about DRM. It kills a used music market. Even Video games are under consideration for DRM because game stop makes a nice profit on used video games that goes write to game stop and not the publishers. IT is fair because when buying a video game or a book I own the media and I can sell it.

      But anyway now back to the book thing. I have a ton of books, some older than I am. They take up a ton of space. I would love an e-book reader so that instead of a giant book case I only need a tiny device. In fact I would love multiple readers. But if I can't get all the books that I want on that reader, I need a giant bookcase anyway so why bother. Also if I get the device and amazon invents a new device and abandons the kindle (or god forbid goes out of business) and shuts down the services that say convert PDFs to the kindle format, or even shuts down the store, then I"m fucked. I have to throw out my kindle. But even if I keep all the books on my kindle, I'm still fucked as I can no longer buy new books for my kindle, because if they close down and so does the kindle no one will make books in that format. Also what happens if my hard disk is wiped out? Amazon has a content manager so you can re-download the book but if amazon goes out of business and closes that then you can't, if you lose the kindle you have lost your entire library....that's not good. I probably spent well over 10,000 or 20,000 on books for my entire life. First of all to get an e-format I'd have to buy them all again. But then to tell me that if I lose my device or because a company goes out of business/stops supporting it I have to buy it all again. I say to you publishes and authors "fuck you" and a "go to hell".

      I will buy an e-book when the following criteria is met:
      1. The format is open. If I buy a kindle and then decide to get a sony reader, I want my library to work. I want my library to be mine.
      2. The entire industry embraces this format. I have eclectic tastes in books. I want "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" available on my device, but at the same time I also want the Anita Blake series available too. I don't want some paper books and some electronic bo

    94. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by cervo · · Score: 1

      OH I should also add that an issue with the kindle is that amazon can pull books from their store. So if you buy a book but then lose it and need to redownload it the store has to still have it. If not then you can't get the book. Sometimes they are pulled for "formatting" issues. But other times they are pulled for other issues...

      You have to ask yourself how hard would it be for the government to control the population if everyone has e readers and they order all reader stores to pull a given ebook. Now printed books are easily shared between people. But if the only way to transfer stuff onto your devices is through a store and someone orders the books pulled from all the stores then you have effectively killed it. It's like a paradise for China. In fact my gripe about China seeing I am reading books on democracy may not apply since China may automatically ban them all from all Chinese stores (and mandate Chinese citizens can only use e-readers that pull from government approved stores).....

    95. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Builder · · Score: 1

      You're calling someone an idiot for taking a well publicised law into consideration when planning a business.

      Uhm, I have no words...

    96. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "No way on Earth I would work hard writing or creating something to have it passed around the Internet for free. I create for my own profit, not your entertainment."

      I've found your free note written to slashdot in an open, ASCII standard very entertaining, and I'd like to sign up for your newsletter.

      But if it is DRM-encumbered, I'm not interested.

      DRM may live on, but you'll never know how many people have avoided your product BECAUSE of the DRM. I suspect that the number of people who won't touch DRM-encumbered stuff with a 10-foot barge pole is steadily increasing because they have had bad experiences (e.g., like buying a bunch of music tracks or ebooks and then being unable to use them or having lost them completely when they upgraded their computer).

      You misunderstand the real equation. It isn't when people using the internet stop illegally copying stuff. It is: when (the number of people loath to buy anything with DRM) > (number of people foiled in their illegal copying attempts by DRM), then it becomes a complete waste of time and money to implement. You're killing the market more than successfully foiling piracy. With circumvention tools inevitably lowering the right side of the equation and the number of people aware of DRM increasing the left side, the eventual expiry of a DRM scheme is inevitable almost anywhere it is deployed. The only exception is if the DRM is protecting something that isn't worth much in the first place.

    97. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by j_166 · · Score: 1

      I don't think Amazon is doing it just to be a big jerk to the kiwis. The Kindle is still considered to be sort of a beta device testing the market for eBooks. There are still major technical and business hurdles to overcome before it can be a world wide device. If at anybody, you should direct your ire at mobile network operators and international publishers, who don't seem to want to let the Kindle model work outside the US: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/technology/10iht-kindle.4.20084663.html

    98. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by joaobranco · · Score: 1

      That's not quite true, pirates are much more likely to win than that. It's a matter of will, and if you get enough people cracking the protection schemes quickly enough at launch, DRM will eventually go away. DRM is about control and profit, if the schemes are broken fast enough there's definitely a question of why spend many thousands of dollars locking something down that'll be cracked within a few weeks. Sure it does help with sales initially, but you're typically having to sell a hell of a lot of copies in order to break even and it does put one at a competitive disadvantage to those that don't need to sell those extra copies. Not to mention the fact that there's a surprising number of people that don't pirate software that doesn't have DRM incorporated into it.

      It just will give the publishers reasons to create business models where most of the profit is extracted from users while the DRM hasn't been cracked yet (or if it has, the work is not sufficiently disseminated to most users to be able to access it) all the while decrying the "evil pirates". I would assume it will still be (financially, at least on the short term) better for those publishers to follow that path than to adapt their business models to a world where the competition is must greater (because you must fight all the other works at near zero cost).

    99. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by joaobranco · · Score: 1

      DRM is a restriction but sadly its a reality that most publishers and authors would want it.

      In principle, why wouldn't they want it? It increases their control over the work at the expense of the public, who is (mostly) ignorant they aren't buying the same thing when they buy a DRM infected work than when they buy something DRM-free. The only way to defeat DRM really is to educate people that something "bought" that uses DRM is not really bought, just rented at the whim of the publisher (and people will value it accordingly). "Selling" goods using DRM is really false advertising.

    100. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by chuckwilson · · Score: 1

      I believe that is what we'd call an "Oh snap."

    101. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that's why I've heard of David Wong and Cory Doctrow, and would buy books by either of them in hardcopy if I spotted one in a book shop, but I still have no idea who you are.

      It sounds like you have yet to actually encounter either of their books in hardcopy, which really just gives you a reasonable measure of just how "popular" both of them are.

    102. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "No way on Earth I would work hard writing or creating something to have it passed around the Internet for free. I create for my own profit, not your entertainment."

      I've found your free note written to slashdot in an open, ASCII standard very entertaining, and I'd like to sign up for your newsletter.

      But he created it for profit, not for your entertainment! He's found the magic step 2!

      1) Post on Slashdot,

      2) ???

      3) Profit!!!!

    103. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by bartszyszka · · Score: 1

      The Kindle already supports a few formats that are DRM-free, though. The problem is the publishers who refuse to offer books in them.

      I'm constantly seeing if I can buy a book directly from a publisher, but their websites usually have links to restricted formats the Kindle doesn't support, so I'm always forced to go back to Amazon.com and buy the book from Amazon. If the publishers just offered a DRM-free version of the book, I'd be able to give all my money to them and not give all the power to Amazon.

      The solution is to convince the publishers to change, not Amazon. Just like Apple needed to convince Sony, Universal, EMI, etc...

    104. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Painted · · Score: 1

      They also helpfully choose what the price end-users pay is. You get to set your "Suggested Retail Price", but Amazon gets to choose what %-off sticker they apply to it. Then* they pay you the 30% of whatever discounted price they decided on.

      --
      http://marsandmore.com - Posters of space, spacecraft, and astronomy.
    105. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by tchall · · Score: 1

      Open Source doesn't have to mean unprotected... a "free" DRM standard would work well for everyone but those with a vested interest in selling software... It could mean that folks interested in On-Line publishing can put up their material without paying a $50K start up fee to some huge software house... and keep ALL their profits... Regarding Amazon's royalties; though... Writers typically get $2-$4 a copy royalties from the big publishers, after their advance is paid back... Amazon keeping 70% gives the writer $3 a download... if my math is up to par... Pretty much in the ballpark I'd say...

    106. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by vu2lid · · Score: 1

      (2) History has shown that DRM doesn't work...

      I remember an online vendor of technical documents which went from no DRM document distribution to highly restrictive DRMed document distribution. This eventually antagonized most of their user base and they actually lost a major portion of their users.

      DRM initially gives (especially to the managers) an impression of being an effective way to get more revenue by squeezing the users. Within a short period of time users will find ways to get the same information through other means (irrespective of the sophistication of technology used to implement DRM).

    107. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by yahzell · · Score: 1

      Who are you? I've never heard of you, thus I've never purchased anything you've written. How's that obscurity working out for you? Maybe if more people "stole" your work, more people would have heard of you and you'd have a larger potential market for your writing.

      Instead of stealing, you could call it "sharing" and "word of mouth advertising" and "a route out of the obscurity ghetto".

      --
      -- @jmartindf joe@desertflood.com
    108. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by icknay · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wow, Slashdot has a bit of a focus problem when DRM comes up .. EPub -- you know, the standard discussed in the article -- has DRM! Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPUB The amount that DRM sucks is dwarfed by the tremendous, earth-killing suck that is proprietary/closed formats. That's what the article says and that's why you should should avoid all things Kindle.

    109. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Try self-publishing through other channels and see how much you net.

      Yeah, I hear Cory Doctorow is starving.

      That point would only be relevant if Cory Doctorow's sole source of income was self-published ebooks. Since Doctorow gives away his ebooks, I'm betting that his income from ebooks is close to zero.

    110. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, that's BS. I see plenty of software with no DRM that has been pirated many, many times over. Take World of Goo or Demigod as examples. Both of them were claiming that there were about 10x as many pirated copies out there as purchased copies. Neither have DRM. Don't send us off on a wild-goosechase, suggesting solutions that aren't going to solve anything.

    111. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by binkzz · · Score: 1

      I think you underestimate the power and ignorance of greed

      --
      'For we walk by faith, not by sight.' II Corinthians 5:7
    112. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by binkzz · · Score: 1

      Interestingly, this is the stance the Dutch government is taking. They are refusing to make movie/music downloading a criminal offence until the content is deliverable DRM-free, hassle-free and at no greater cost.

      --
      'For we walk by faith, not by sight.' II Corinthians 5:7
    113. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by murr · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up!

      However, I see MOBI files from various providers other than Amazon (e.g. Pragmatic Bookstore, and even Gutenberg). What is proprietary about MOBI?

    114. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by jgs · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Did you RTFA? The point that O'Reilly (and others like Cory Doctorow) is making is essentially that according to his data (and he does have data), people who publish on closed platforms using DRM make less profit than people who publish on open platforms.

      Yes, it's counter-intuitive. But so far, the people who use actual evidence in making their arguments seem to be showing that's how it is.

      If you resent unpaid use of your work so much that you are willing to make less profit in exchange for preventing it, that's your call. But if you really do create for profit, you might want to read the article, and others like it, and think hard about it.

    115. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...pirates are much more likely to win than that. It's a matter of will, and if you get enough people cracking the protection schemes quickly enough at launch, DRM will eventually go away.

      Incorrect. Pirates don't win anymore than leeches win. DRM won't go away, most people will go along (long enough) for it to make it worthwhile. DRM is, I'm sure, regarded as a cost of doing business with its own ROI. If it can end up making/saving more than it costs, it'll stay around.

    116. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by lcrocker · · Score: 1

      Yeah, clearly this guy knows more about how to make money in the publishing business than Tim O'Reilly.

      --
      --Lee Daniel Crocker : http://www.etceterology.com My life is in the public domain.
    117. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's all a matter of degree. Crime is crime.

    118. Re:I wouldn't publish on Kindle if it was Open by Enigma2175 · · Score: 1

      Conviction. Do you know the word or what?

      Your above post was the first time the word "conviction" was used in this thread. You replied to a post that used the term "locked up", which Mr. Skylarov most certainly was.

      He was given bond, he couldn't pay it.

      So, I'll ask you again, has there been a single person convicted of a DMCA charge? Anyone? If not, why would you bet your business on it happening?

      I called you an idiot because you're clearly too dumb to follow a simple argument.

      You say you'll ask me again, when were you going to ask the first time? Just to humor you, here is a DMCA conviction:
      http://news.cnet.com/2100-1025-5080807.html
      Also, there have been thousands of DMCA takedown orders sent to content providers, the circumvention clause is not the only part of the DMCA.

      Your argument is not valid but you think if you somehow insult me it will make it so. Your personal attacks, moving of the goalposts and rejection of evidence make it obvious that you are just a troll and not interested in reasonable discourse, so this will be my last post on the matter.

      --

      Enigma

  2. Use ODF by Elitist_Phoenix · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They should make it support ODF. But I guess its all about profit to them.

    --
    "I'm going to f***ing bury that guy, I have done it before, and I will do it again. I'm going to f***ing kill Google"
    1. Re:Use ODF by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm all for open standards; but it isn't at all obvious that ODF is anything like the right one. ODF has a great deal of complexity, not a virtue in embedded devices, because it is designed to cope with the (fairly intricate and evolved) needs of office suites. Something like EPUB, which is designed for ebook purposes, or even a subset of HTML seems like it would be a great deal more suitable.

    2. Re:Use ODF by Grishnakh · · Score: 1, Informative

      No, definitely not ODF. ODF is a format for creating content, not for viewing it. It has all kinds of complicated crap in it that's good for being able to easily edit a document, but if you're just looking at it, you no longer need that. This is why the PDF format was created: to view content on any device and have it look the same.

      For viewing book-type content on portable devices, where screen sizes can vary and people might want to be able to change font size, I imagine some type of mark-up language would be best. But content-creation software would need to be careful so we don't wind up with all the problems that HTML has had, where things frequently look like crap on different-size screens.
         

  3. It's all about me! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They should use open standards so I will buy one.

  4. iPod and iTunes by DaRat · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The Kindle does support the Mobipocket format. Docs in that format can be distributed freely and without copy protection. The tools are available for free.

    A better analogue is the iPod and the iTunes Store. The iPod became the dominant mp3 player not because it supported proprietary and non proprietary formats. It became successful because it made the process of acquiring and transferring content (ripped and purchased) seamless and easy. The Kindle has something very similar in its ease with which you can purchase books and put them onto your Kindle.

    1. Re:iPod and iTunes by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      The Kindle has something very similar in its ease with which you can purchase books and put them onto your Kindle.

      True. So does my netbook.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    2. Re:iPod and iTunes by Darkness404 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ...No, the iPod became dominant because it was A) affordable B) had a decent enough UI once you got used to it C) had enough features and D) the competition was crap. Sure, today you can find better MP3 players than the iPod if all you want to do is listen to music, but back when the first iPod came out, it was the smallest player with the highest capacity and attractive design. And now the iPod continues its dominance via the applications on the iPod touch/iPhone plus all the DRM'd music others have bought and don't want to spend $100 reconverting it and prefer to instead pay $75 more to upgrade their player to the latest iPod.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    3. Re:iPod and iTunes by revlayle · · Score: 2, Insightful

      iPod = affordable?

      I would call the iPod a lot of positive words/descriptors. "Affordable" would not be one of those. I love my current iPod, but you pay a premium for quality/capabilities of such a device.

    4. Re:iPod and iTunes by Dare+nMc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The article did recognize that, and also explained why that didn't work for O'reily (lack of features.) Really it didn't seam the article cared as much about the hardware, as about the publisher side. I also think this open format discussion was also more about letting it be developed and improved by some community, than leaving it locked to being developed by a single group of developers.
      It seams the only way to meet this definition of open is to make the kindle platform open to developers, it was unclear how amazon was supposed to match that on the publisher side though.

    5. Re:iPod and iTunes by hedwards · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      That's not true. A) It costs a couple of hundred dollars more than the competition. B) It ripped off the UI from the competition with the exception of the buttons on the case. C) The iPod never had as many features as the competition did, you're probably thinking of attachments. D) The competition wasn't crap, I've used the competition for years, and I've never had to send it back for a costly battery replacement.

    6. Re:iPod and iTunes by davester666 · · Score: 1

      Ironically, the latest iPod models, namely the iPod Touch's, have the worst UI for actually playing music, as you need to completely focus your attention on the device to do the simplest operation, like play/pause/change volume.

      With all the previous versions, there was an actual physical control that you could operate by touch without needing to even glance at it.

      Hell, Apple even screwed up the placement of the controls when you aren't "within" the music playing app (the controls you get when you double click the front button), by putting up the controls in two different locations, depending on whether the screen is locked or unlocked.

      I really wish Apple would throw on the classic iPod touch-wheel onto the back of the iPod Touch (and maybe even the iPhone...).

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    7. Re:iPod and iTunes by schnikies79 · · Score: 1

      The ipod touch is meant to be more of a pda than an ipod, even if it's called that. What you want is the classic, which they still make.

      http://www.apple.com/ipodclassic/

      --
      Gone!
    8. Re:iPod and iTunes by maxume · · Score: 1

      Or maybe some chincy $50 8GB off brand flash model that works until it doesn't work anymore. By the time it breaks, $50 should by 20 GB. And so on.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    9. Re:iPod and iTunes by am+2k · · Score: 1

      I'm using an iPhone for listening to music sometimes, and except for starting the music, I can use the remote control button (once for play/pause, twice for skip) and the volume control hardware buttons on the side of the device for everything I need. The new iPod Touch even has a better remote control that has more than a single button.

    10. Re:iPod and iTunes by Darkness404 · · Score: 4, Informative

      A) It costs a couple of hundred dollars more than the competition.

      Back in 2001? I don't think so. There were no commonly available 5 GB devices in the iPods form factor back in 2001. Today, yes, 2001? No.

      B) It ripped off the UI from the competition with the exception of the buttons on the case

      Not really, the entire UI was basically based off the click wheel which wasn't really used on anything else back in 2001. If you have evidence feel free to show me, but I can't remember (and a quick Google search turned up no results) of any other player having a similar UI back in 2001.

      C) The iPod never had as many features as the competition did, you're probably thinking of attachments. D) The competition wasn't crap, I've used the competition for years, and I've never had to send it back for a costly battery replacement.

      About the only other digital audio player that came close back in 2001 to the iPod would be the Personal Jukebox and even then it used a larger HD making the entire device itself larger.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    11. Re:iPod and iTunes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      > The Kindle does support the Mobipocket format.

      This is not strictly true. The Kindle format is a variation on the mobi format with DRM - the content is encrypted with the device's serial number. Unencrypted works are available and can be read just fine. A decryption strategy has also been reported.

    12. Re:iPod and iTunes by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      A) It costs a couple of hundred dollars more than the competition.

      Back in 2001? I don't think so. There were no commonly available 5 GB devices in the iPods form factor back in 2001. Today, yes, 2001? No.

      Small nitpick: I think the 6GB Nomad was out when the iPod was announced. However, it's important to point out that the iPod was significantly smaller and it didn't require a seperate AC adapter to charge.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    13. Re:iPod and iTunes by demonlapin · · Score: 3, Informative

      Ever actually used a Kindle? It's nothing like reading a book on a computer, which I've done a few times. It's like reading a real book - no eyestrain, easy viewing, no need to be plugged in if you'll be more than a couple of hours.

      I get that it's not everyone's cup of tea, and yes, it is really expensive. But if you have the money - and I do, so all you folks out there who depend on early adopters should thank me - it's just an amazing device. I bought my wife a K2 for our anniversary, and liked it so much that I went out and bought a K1, used, not a month later. (The price was too good to turn down.)

    14. Re:iPod and iTunes by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      To clarify parent: Straight Mobipocket is supported on Kindle. DRMed is not, unless converted to Kindle format or de-DRMed.

    15. Re:iPod and iTunes by Mista2 · · Score: 1

      iPod, now if it just had a nice 30second forward skip for zipping past ads in podcasts ... oh yeah, sorry, I forgot I was talking about Apple.

    16. Re:iPod and iTunes by fermion · · Score: 1
      The iPod, full version, was expensive. This was mostly because the harddrive. At the time it was determined that the cost of the player was on order of the retail price of the hard drive. It was the cheapest not because of quality, but because it had huge storage.

      Even so, it was competitive with what I paid for my Nomad II. When the iPod Mini was released, it was on the order of what I paid for the Nomad II. I replaced the Nomad witha mini for two reasons. First, it has a better capacity. Second, filling the nomad over USB 1.1 was terribly slow, while firewire was by comparison instantaneous.

      Even now, people pay for capacity. The 16 and 32 gigabyte is 3X and 4X as must as the Creative stuff, but one only gets 8GB with the creative. Of course, MS has stuck with hard disk, which hasn't seemed to work.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    17. Re:iPod and iTunes by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Actually the Nomad Jukebox came out in late 2000, and Apple was more or less duplicated the system that Creative had. Apple filed the same patent after Creative did. Here's a relevant link Creative wins MP3 player patent

      But then again, why bother with facts when you can mod somebody -1 "I disagree"

    18. Re:iPod and iTunes by tbuskey · · Score: 1

      When I bought my iPod, I had 30 GB of music ripped from my CDs to MP3 format (I had a Compact Flash based MP3 player). When I went looking for players that could store more then 30 GB, I didn't find many. The Zune was about the same price w/o the 3rd party market of adapters, cases, etc. Archos cost more but had more features. I ended up with an 80 GB version.

      I don't use iTunes FWIW. I think just about every other MP3 player lets you just drag files on. The iPod has an internal database.

      If you're looking for something w/o a hard drive (low capacity) there are lots of cheaper players. If you want GB/$ portably, the iPod isn't a bad choice.

    19. Re:iPod and iTunes by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      As for D): World-reknowned tech reporter Rob Malda commented on the iPod launch with terms like "from the well-thats-not-very-exciting-dept." and "No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame".

      That should settle that, then.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    20. Re:iPod and iTunes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do not want an iPod classic. They are garbage -- dog slow UI, annoying 'features' that you can't turn off (rotating cover art taking up half the screen? brilliant!), ultra-low-budget scrollwheel, useless battery life display instead of song info when locked, etc.

      Get a used Video iPod instead.

    21. Re:iPod and iTunes by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      In fact, I remember hearing that professional photographers were buying iPods, ripping them apart, and removing the hard drives, because the iPod was selling for less than the market value of 5GB 1.8" CF hard drives (which could be used in a digital camera).

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
  5. Commercialism by Techmeology · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The trouble with today's society is commercialism driven technology. Just as art is hollow when the artist cares only about money, truly creative science and technology cannot take place when its primary purpose is to line the pockets of some corporation. It's this care and passion for creation that makes open standards superior. Yes. We all know Microsoft can pump marketable features out, but ultimately, Microsoft technology exists to serve Microsoft, not us. As an added side effect, most DRM schemes rely on security through obfuscation. Hence a piece of technology based on open standards ought to be free of DRM. Even if open source DRM could be constructed, most people passionate enough about a scientific community would be very anti-DRM. Conclusion: unless you like being Microsoft's pawn, open standards FTW!

    --
    Excuse for why is your room always messy?
    1. Re:Commercialism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      " truly creative science and technology cannot take place when its primary purpose is to line the pockets of some corporation"

      Two guys with a great idea can start a corporation to limit their liabilities. If their invention is worth anything it will also line their evil corporation's pockets. How can truly creative science and technology not take place in this environment? Now multiply that by 1000 or 10000 employees. Why can't creativity take place there? The mere fact that it's a corporation limits that? Please explain. (you may have an argument about PUBLIC corporations but this corporations are evil and limiting is BS)

    2. Re:Commercialism by Mista2 · · Score: 1

      Also to play HD content,especially Blueray, they say you need lots of CPU power. This is not true, you only need the CPU power to decrypt the copy protection. My 1.6GHz netbook plays 1080i HD content seamlessly thanks. DRM just ads complexity and an enforced lack of compatibility.

    3. Re:Commercialism by XorNand · · Score: 1

      Just as art is hollow when the artist cares only about money...

      While romantic-sounding, what does that really mean? The world is filled with art (much of it famous) that was created by really talented artists trying to put food on the table. In fact, I can't think of a better motivator to produce good-quality art than the prospect of becoming another "starving artist." Michelangelo absolutely hated painting the Sistine Chapel ceiling. He was a sculptor and only did the frescos after being hounded into by the Pope. He complained incessantly about not having as much creative control as he wished over the project, about his aches and pains of doing uncomfortable work, the papacy rushing him, etc.

      --
      Entrepreneur : (noun), French for "unemployed"
    4. Re:Commercialism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting - so DRM causes a lot of unnecessary processing, and is so wasting CPU power and therefore energy. So DRM contributes to global warming. Someone call Al Gore! ;)

    5. Re:Commercialism by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      I thought it was already common knowledge that pirates fight global warming. :-)

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  6. I almost got a Kindle.. by Lysol · · Score: 4, Interesting

    But instead... I got a Sony PRS-700. And I love it. Sure the screen could be bigger, but it supports PDF natively and a lot of the tech books I get (probably not going to be the case with most other books - yet) are in epub format, which is at least an open format. I know the Kindle DX supports native PDF, but I actually like the epub format now as it seems to render better on my PRS-700. The PRS-700 also has touch screen and a SD slot; so I can just download the epub's, copy them over to the sd, and then they show up on my 'bookshelf' on the reader. Exactly the amount of control I wanted.

    I can see what Amazon is doing here - they're trying to mimic the success of the iTunes music store. I suspect this will work for a while, but at some point, others will come along and force Amazon to open up. Once they do, I might buy a bigger Kindle.

    All in all, I think ebooks have finally arrived and I'm ditching all my paper text manuals and never buying another one again..

    1. Re:I almost got a Kindle.. by Winckle · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, but Apple made the device support plain mp3s and such and then made a store to go with it. Who would have bought an iPod if it couldn't play your mp3s?

    2. Re:I almost got a Kindle.. by Mista2 · · Score: 1

      Once someone is able to sell e-books all over the world, amazon will fall.

    3. Re:I almost got a Kindle.. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Formats don't matter, so long as they're open. If you've got something that your reader can't handle, use Calibre to convert it to a format which can be handled, and that's it.

      That said, I'm also using Sony (PRS-505 though, I prefer higher contrast and whiter background over the dubious convenience of a touch screen), and the online store that I buy books from can provide them directly in Sony's native LRF format (among other things). And no, it's not Sony's store, and there's no DRM.

    4. Re:I almost got a Kindle.. by Stele · · Score: 1

      It's a good thing the Kindle supports several DRM-free formats as well, then, huh?

    5. Re:I almost got a Kindle.. by Winckle · · Score: 1

      It doesn't really though, you have to email the PDF to them, they convert it into their format and send you it back.

    6. Re:I almost got a Kindle.. by Stele · · Score: 1

      I wasn't referring to PDF of course. Kindle supports several other formats you can just drop on when it's connected via USB.

  7. Re:first.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    fail

  8. Mod parent up by hedwards · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The Parent poster is right, Art is not something which really works under the model that the GP suggests. There is an element of truth in that being paid to create art provides one with the ability to do so without having to work all day and improves the energy and time available to create the work.

    But it comes at a cost that can be quite high. As soon as you start having to worry about being paid, one has to worry about whether or not the piece is going to be marketable and that is a terribly damaging environment under which to create innovative work. It's not really much of a surprise that most of the masters were doing portraits, working for patrons or downright broke when they were turning out works that would later sell for millions. It's rare to say the least to be able to be a professional artist without putting a muzzle on ones own creativity.

    DRM isn't going to help that situation out much, in fact it's probably going to hurt by eliminating people that are likely to get work that's somewhat out of the ordinary or in other ways unconventional.

    1. Re:Mod parent up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Problem is, the art that people do for themselves tends to be rather self obsessed.

      Which is fine, it's just that it probably won't be that attractive to you. It might all seem rather boring and meaningless, as there is no need for the artist to make their ideas accessible.

      Most people not involved in the creative world have a rather naive view of popular art. You see the final result, which is often intentionally made, through great effort, to seem natural and effortless. It's an illusion and a clever and attractive one, but people are taken in by it.

      I always find it funny that people think the music industry is full of megastars who spend their lives with expensive cars and fine clothes. In fact that was mostly just an image sold to people, back when people found success attractive. You can hire that stuff for a few days for the video, then it all goes back.

      Nowadays, the image is often toned down to seem more 'gritty', 'real' or 'authentic'. It's just as much an illusion, and the artist may be making exactly the same profit, but it sells better right now.

      "It's not really much of a surprise that most of the masters were doing portraits, working for patrons or downright broke when they were turning out works that would later sell for millions."
      That was how many hundred years ago? And do you actually like any of it?

    2. Re:Mod parent up by sgrizzard · · Score: 1

      I agree. I want to be paid for my work, but it is not the most important motivation for me to write. Good writing is done for the writer first, and everyone else second. I think DRM is crap, and it hurts customers (whoever they are). The fact is, DRM doesn't stop the people that won't pay for your work, and it hurts the people that want to pay for your work, so why bother? Sure, there are people at the margin who will decide to steal rather than to purchase, but if that group is really large enough to make a significant difference, then the price of your work is too high and your publisher is censoring information with high pricing. If that's the case, you deserve to be ripped-off you jerk. Paying for books is the same as paying for any other good - there is a price that is somewhere between the highest price a customer is willing to pay and the lowest price you are willing to sell it for. If you aren't being a greedy jerk, that price should be somewhere in the middle. Be willing to split the surplus with your reader, and the DRM issue becomes a non-issue. Be like the RIAA, trying to make people pay $20 for one good song (and nine crappy ones), and you deserve to get ripped-off (and you will be).

    3. Re:Mod parent up by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 1

      Good art is good art, period. Your idealistic imposition of morals on the motivation of the creation have no bearing on anyone's opinion but your own. It surely doesn't work as a general justification for the entitlement culture that has sprung up around creative works consumption.

  9. Kindle Coverage by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Boy, Kindle is sure getting a lot of coverage on Slashdot lately. You're left to think that somehow the world matters because of it - which it doesn't.

    Google getting into book selling is a much bigger deal. Fictionwise's current meltdown where they apparently can't even report and pay royalties on time or properly is a big deal given their size in the eBook market and number of publishers involved. The fact that you don't even need a Kindle reader to buy and read Kindle books seems seldom mentioned. (A free Kindle reader app is available for iPhone/iPod Touch and there are millions more of those out there than Kindle hardware.)

    Now another pundit tells us that Kindle must change, or die, in 3 years. Kindle is excellent for its intended uses. It's purpose built to provide eBook reading in a thin format with a very readable screen in bright light, weeks' long battery life, limited browsing, multiple formats, bookmarking, annotation, and sharing the book across multiple devices, and no-worries wireless connection. Also, lots of books available for it from the biggest bookseller on the planet. It's hard to see who is going to beat out that combination easily in the near future. I'd just as quickly predict the iPod demise as the end of Kindle.

    Where do I see Kindle in 3 years? Cheaper, if production catches up to sales. Better browsing and better integration of its features into other formats (e.g. annotations on PDFs). Content (e.g. Newspapers) delivered to it by subscription replacing dead tree physical delivery. Or possibly limited to a hardware niche market while their reader software is running on every significant portable device with a screen large enough to read on.

    One way or another "Kindle" survives as a brand as long as Amazon doesn't abandon it themselves and keeps developing the product.

    My personal opinion? That the people predicting Kindle's demise are the ones who hate it in the first place and are trying to talk it away.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    1. Re:Kindle Coverage by bcrowell · · Score: 1

      Fictionwise's current meltdown where they apparently can't even report and pay royalties on time or properly is a big deal given their size in the eBook market and number of publishers involved.

      More info? Links?

      I don't yet have the 10 professionally published short stories that Fictionwise wants you to have before they'll deal with you, so this is basically moot for me, but I'd still like to hear the gory details. The other thing that scares me off is that they want exclusive electronic distribution rights.

    2. Re:Kindle Coverage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      "Now another pundit tells us that Kindle must change"

      Yeah, Tim O'Reilly doesn't have a great track record on predicting the success and demise of tech. Smart man, love his company, usually has a good analysis, but too often comes to conclusions unsupported by his analysis. He seems to right with an end opinion in mind, not supported by the evidence he's putting forth.

      The Kindle isn't going anywhere mainly because of the base it has already, and that base is growing. The Kindle also has the support of the largest bookseller. Even if Google had it's own reader, and publishers flocked to them (they won't), publishers aren't going to stop selling hard copies to Amazon, which in turn is going to make Kindle copies available. The Kindle is also up there now as one of the more technologically advanced e-book readers. Amazon, despite being slow, is "getting" it. They aren't quite there yet, but they have a mass of users and are listening to those users.

      Also, as you mentioned, how are open standards going to screw the Kindle? They already support pdf, likely more is to come, they have an auto-update system so they can expand to more open formats if they so choose, they run Linux so that conversion process is likely convenient for them to adapt their mass of users overnight. You can convert any free format to a "Kindle" format.

      Worse for his opinion, there was already an analysis of the Kindle 2 hardware, and it seems very clear that Amazon could slice the crap out of the price of the device, and as wireless networking becomes cheaper, this bodes well for the hardware and the network hookup. Amazon has a damn good hook, and as long as Amazon doesn't get too greedy (like that implement that ads in an e-book patent), they'll grow their user base.

      Right now, the lead competitor is Amazon. Right now, they are single-handedly driving the cost down or improving the tech. If O'Reilly thinks someone else is going to step up, that's fine, but no one is in position to.

      I own mp3 players, but never bought an mp3--I rip. I can order, rip, and put the music anywhere, and I love that. I also use Slacker. Like it, play it, order it. Same with DVDs. I also use crunchyroll. (Although, ordering is a pain since Japanese companies still have their head up their @%% as half the good anime isn't available in the US; I guess DVD manufacturing is still too hard.)

      With books, what am I going to do, rip the spine open and put it through a $300 bulk scanner? I screw around with hobby automation, so yeah, I could use a digital camera and construct a page turner, and then OCR the pics, but hell, the other day I couldn't find my paperback copy of Neuromancer, so I just paid and downloaded it.

      Convenient. Reads DRM and non-DRM. non-DRM wins, Kindle is still going to get sales out the whazoo. Google wins, Kindle is still going to be a nice device with a minor monthly subscription if Amazon so chooses. Open format isn't going to win this one alone.

    3. Re:Kindle Coverage by Spy+Handler · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Kindle took over when Oprah gushed about it on her show.

      You think Slashdot has a wide reach? For every eyeball on the internets reading your Slashdot post, there are probably 10,000 old women watching Oprah on TV.

  10. Any cheap(er) e-ink e-book readers in works? by schnikies79 · · Score: 1

    Serious question as I have tried everything else. I have a desktop, a netbook and a iphone. Each are worthless when reading books. I simply cannot stand having a back-lit screen.

    I can't see myself spending $200+.

    --
    Gone!
    1. Re:Any cheap(er) e-ink e-book readers in works? by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      Google "sony PRS". Cheaper and reads PDF better, the tradeoff is that the Sony bookstore is atrocious and requires software on your computer -- the Kindle store is pretty well stocked with contemporary books and downloads them over the air in a relatively painless process. FWIW I'm a Sony employee and get a break on buying Sony gear and I bought the Kindle, mainly because of the bookstore/subscription selection. No regrets.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    2. Re:Any cheap(er) e-ink e-book readers in works? by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Try used. I got a Kindle v1 for under $200 a month ago, after buying my wife a K2 new as an anniversary present. It's absolutely worth the full price, but saving almost $200 vs new was a pretty easy decision.

  11. Apple tablet by ciaohound · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I was at a neighborhood party this weekend, which provided something like a random sample of the population. You know, morons. Anyway, someone had a Kindle and they were passing it around a bit, showing it off. At the same time, there were many more people showing each other things on their iPhones. The Kindle didn't hang around for long. Maybe it's just not good at parties. Anyway, it made me think that if and when Apple makes a tablet that does everything an iPhone does AND everything the Kindle does, and costs just a tad more than an iPod Touch, that will hit the ebook reader sweet spot.

    --
    Oh, yeah, it's not easy to pad these out to 120 characters.
    1. Re:Apple tablet by commodoresloat · · Score: 2, Informative

      In a way, they kinda did that already.

    2. Re:Apple tablet by demonlapin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The thing is, Kindle = e-Ink + Amazon store.

      e-Ink is really a crucial part of the Kindle experience. If you've never played with it IRL, you can't really appreciate it - it just sounds a bit ridiculous to say "Works in full sunlight!" and "Long battery life!" until you've gone outside in full summer sun and found it easier to read than it was inside, and then gotten through 3 or 4 long books before you have to recharge. If used heavily, the battery STILL lasts a week when wireless is off. No tablet based on currently available tech can touch this, and I know of no tech in the pipeline that will change that.

      And the Kindle has an edge - in some ways, to most people - in that you can shop wherever there is Sprint access. I'm in a 1xRTT area, and though it's slower, it works. So you get the big-buyer power of Amazon opening up the catalog, and the universal access, and it gets a major edge over other readers in some ways - especially if you're in an airport, e.g., that doesn't have free WiFi.

    3. Re:Apple tablet by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      My wife has a Kindle, and I read Kindle books on my iPhone. I personally prefer reading books on the iPhone because of the interface. I don't like how slow the e-Ink pages are to change, or the abruptness with which they do. The smooth scrolling on the iPhone is preferable to me. Regardless, I am jealous of the battery life the Kindle gets. I can only read for about 5-6 hours on the iPhone before I need to charge it.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    4. Re:Apple tablet by westlake · · Score: 1

      I was at a neighborhood party this weekend, which provided something like a random sample of the population. You know, morons.

      I can't even think like this.

      Much less put it into words.

      The Kindle didn't hang around for long. Maybe it's just not good at parties

      Reading defines the pleasures of solitude.

      Reading aloud is performance - an improvisational drama - with the book as your script.

      To hold an audience - you need a story and not a gadget.

    5. Re:Apple tablet by pandrijeczko · · Score: 1

      I was at a neighborhood party this weekend, which provided something like a random sample of the population. You know, morons.

      Presumably you are the guy who works it IT that leaves his phone ringing for at least 15 rings before picking it up and who's first response to the caller is always "Have you turned it off and on again?"

      I'm surprised you were even invited to the party - as you sound like a totally arrogant prick.

      --
      Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
    6. Re:Apple tablet by ciaohound · · Score: 1

      Google "You know, morons." It's a Mel Brooks line, delivered by the great Gene Wilder in "Blazing Saddles." I love my neighbors and my neighborhood, but most of them don't work in science and technology. As such, I figure they provide a pretty good gauge of what and how tech is penetrating the mainstream. My point is that when a product has the union of the feature sets of the Kindle and the iPhone, the Kindle is going to wind up on the shelf, as it did at this party.

      --
      Oh, yeah, it's not easy to pad these out to 120 characters.
    7. Re:Apple tablet by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Try it a bit more, maybe, and try an easier bit of reading - I've noticed that really challenging books are more difficult with Kindle because you do a lot more back-and-forth than you think you do. OTOH stuff that's a bit more predictable - i.e., you'll get it the first time you read it - works great, because there isn't any delay at the end of the page - you hit "next page" when you're a line or two from the end, and when it changes, you've just finished the page.

  12. Artists deserve to get paid. by tjstork · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Last time I checked, taking advantage of someone's enjoyment of their work by not paying them is called exploitation. How about, if because you like to program, your employer decided not to pay you.

    Artists work. They deserve to be paid for what they do. If you don't want to have art on your computer, you can choose to not pay for it. But if it is valuable enough that you might be motivated to go out of your way to get some DRM breaking device, chances are, that means it is valuable, even to you. That means, don't steal it.

    The question isn't whether, for example, Paul McCartney made a billion dollars off of his music, or Steven Spielberg made a billion dollars off of his movies. The question is, is a Paul McCartney song worth a $1 to you. If so, then pony up. Otherwise, don't listen to it.

    It's pretty simple, really.

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by daath93 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      it seems to me though that most "Artists" have an inflated idea of what their "Art" is "worth". If a person enjoys looking at a painting by da Vinci, it doesn't necessarily mean they enjoy paying $10m for the privilege of looking at it. This is why museums were created, and...lets face it, most painters are no da Vinci.

      The same is true on a much smaller scale. Someone may enjoy reading Anne Rice, but will go to a library and read The Mummy for free. This doesnt mean she doesnt like the book, or appreciate the artist, or the art.

      Not everyone is going to PAY for you to not have to work. Sorry.

    2. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by icebraining · · Score: 5, Informative

      Paulo Coelho is not the literary world's most active Web aficionado, but he's certainly its most prominent. The Brazilian author has sold more than 100 million books, which include 14 short story collections and the novel "The Alchemist." He has been a fan of the Internet since the early 1990s. He spends at least three hours a day online, writing e-mails back and forth with his readers and posting photos on Flickr, MySpace and a blog.

      Coelho's online activities also include a somewhat nefarious one: he likes to promote pirated copies of his own books. At the recent Digital, Life, Design Conference in Munich, Coelho told a gathering of tech company CEOs, artists and designers that since 2005 he's been directing his readers to an online site where they can download his books, in languages from German to Japanese, for free. "I always thought that when, at the beginning of your career, you strive to be read, you can't change your mind later and become greedy about it," he said.

      Tell that to his publisher, HarperCollins. When reached by NEWSWEEK, a HarperCollins spokeswoman, Patricia Rose, said the publisher knew nothing about Coelho's online activities.

      With his announcement Coelho is turning up the heat on an issue that's been simmering in the book publishing industry for years. In supplementing traditional promotional strategies, such as book signings and reviews, with free downloads, Coelho is championing a model that's gaining momentum among his fellow, albeit lesser-known, authors. Writers of technical manuals, academic books and fiction authors, like science fiction writer Cory Doctorow, have been putting their entire books online for free, with the consent of their publishers. Some authors claim that online publishing increases book sales by stimulating word of mouth. Publishers, for the most part, have been reluctant to endorse the practice for fear that it will undermine their sales and contracts for foreign rights and distribution. The trouble is, nobody really knows what effect free online publishing has on book sales, because there's almost no data to go on. "I think the Internet, for [publishers], is a very strange world, still," says Coelho's agent, Monica Antunes, from her office in Barcelona. "They can't make up their minds whether it's good or not good."

      Whereas most authors who have embraced online publishing have done so openly, Coelho had been deftly hiding behind the anonymity provided in the digital world. His site, Piratecoelho, culls pirated versions of his books on sites like BitTorrent and eMule. He pays 10 fans scattered across France, Spain, Brazil, Russia and Turkey to find new pipelines for him to gather versions of his books onto the site. Visitors to his blog can click on an image of Coelho, resplendent in a neatly trimmed white beard, scarf and eye patch (he resembles an affable buccaneer in real life as well), and continue on to the site.

      Coelho believes his online activities have only increased his already healthy sales. When he first came across a pirated edition of one of his books, in Russian, on the Internet in 1999, he put the link on his site, and the impact was immediate. Bookstore sales in Russia, a market in which Coelho was having distribution problems and where he had sold only 1,000 books, rocketed to 10,000 in 2001. He has since sold 10 million copies of his books, his agent says. His fans have downloaded complete editions of his books, in languages ranging from Spanish to Swedish, more than 20 million times in the past seven years. By publishing online, he says, "you give the reader the possibility of reading books and choosing whether to buy it or not."

    3. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by tjstork · · Score: 4, Interesting

      . By publishing online, he says, "you give the reader the possibility of reading books and choosing whether to buy it or not."

      That's good for Coehlo, but the issue here is that the work is his. Like it or not, the US and the rest of the world has adopted the French model of copyright and in that model the artist reigns absolutely supreme first. If Coehlo wants to give his work away to promote himself, that's fine. But, that is his choice to make and not something that should be imposed on him - unless you want to change the law.

      --
      This is my sig.
    4. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by coldmist · · Score: 1

      Last time I checked, taking advantage of someone's enjoyment of their work by not paying them is called exploitation. How about, if because you like to program, your employer decided not to pay you.

      Talk to Linus about that, will ya? With all the people in the world using Linux, he should be a millionaire. Oh ya, he voluntarily gave it away!

      Artists work. They deserve to be paid for what they do.

      You really believe that statement? They deserve to be paid? Wow. Please, read your statement over again. So, what if an artist puts their content up on a website for free, for anyone to download? Do they still deserve to be paid? If so, how much?

      As soon as you say they "deserve to be paid" and the "how much" question comes into the equation, you know it's based on an incorrect principles.

      --
      Don't steal. The government hates competition.
    5. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by civilizedINTENSITY · · Score: 5, Insightful

      First, beautiful definition: "taking advantage of someone's enjoyment of their work by not paying them is called exploitation".

      However, just because someone works hard doesn't mean they deserve to be paid. "Artists work. They deserve to be paid for what they do." A fool who works hard first digging holes, then the next day burying them, doesn't deserve to demand a paycheck "because he works hard all day." Who was he working for?

      If an artist is hired to do work, he deserves to paid for the work he does as per the agreement. If an artist choses to produce art, there is no guarantee of payment. None. Why should there be?

      Agreed: "The question isn't whether, for example, Paul McCartney made a billion dollars off of his music."

      But then, disagreed, because the question is *not*: "is a Paul McCartney song worth a $1 to you".

      A sweet smelling rose bush is worth a $1 to me, for sure. But do you have the right to ask me for $1 to enjoy that rose bush?

      The real question is should we continue to pretend that nonmaterial productions should count as property? Does the societal benefit of such an artifical and arbitrary distinction outweigh the cost? That is the real question.

    6. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by SleepingWaterBear · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The question is, is a Paul McCartney song worth a $1 to you. If so, then pony up. Otherwise, don't listen to it.

      You seem to have completely failed to grasp the supply half of supply and demand economics. Where did this magical $1 figure come from which you must pay or else not listen to the music? If going to a movie isn't worth the $10 the big theatres charge to me, am I not allowed to go see it in the second run theatre for $2? If I go perform music in the street can I then insist that everyone who enjoys it has to pay me? Just because you produce something doesn't mean you have some intrinsic right to make money from it - unless there's some reasonable way to ensure the scarcity of what you're selling, you need to resign yourself to the reality that you can't really sell it.

      Copyright exists to promote creation of art. Right now, most artists make very little money from records and depend on live performances to make their money. With the exception of a few mega stars who don't need extra money to make it worth their while, copyright is protecting businessmen and lawyers rather than artists here, and on the whole increasing the total cost to society, while doing very little to encourage art. Why, as a society, should we make it possible for Paul McCartney to make yet more money, rather than making art widely and freely available to people?

      If recordings of Paul McCartney's music were in limited supply things would be different, but introducing artificial scarcity unbalances the economic system for no good reason that I can see.

    7. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by Maudib · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually if an "artist" is a member of a guild or union that pushes legislation the end result of which is to steal from the commons, then I make sure that I not only don't pay for it, but I will help other people take it without paying as well.

      Until the Copyright Term Extension Act is rescinded, I consider all media produced by "artists" affiliated with the companies/guilds/unions that bought the law, to be free. Furthermore the act of refusing to pay for their work while actively distributing it to others for free is not only ethical, but an important bit of civil disobedience. Those who pay for works created by said artists are in fact the real transgressors.

      It really is unfortunate that so many people end up buying these works simply for the sake of convenience.

    8. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by JPLemme · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think the situation would be improved if the artist reigned absolutely supreme. Unfortunately the copyright owner reigns supreme, and that seems to be the root cause of a lot of the current unhappiness with the situation. Frankly, Lars Ulrich may have been a dick, but it's hard to argue that he didn't have the moral right to complain that a recording that he had created got released without his consent. But when Sony argues that they're defending the "rights of the artists" whilst taking 100% of the artist's royalties until promotional bills are paid in full (thus forcing the artist to pay for the production and promotion of the recording, but without actually giving the artist control over the budget for production or promotion), it's hard to be sympathetic.

    9. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by pregister · · Score: 1

      Oh, horseshit. You're a real Thoreau. I pirate music. I pirate music. I do it because its easier than purchasing. If its on iTunes, I'll probably buy it...because its easier. I pirate media as well, but I don't try to make myself believe that I'm actually in the right to be doing so.

    10. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it seems to me though that most "Artists" have an inflated idea of what their "Art" is "worth".

      Certainly as far as where the market is. Were I not downloading, I'd be buying my music solely from secondhand and charity shops. $1 US a song? Try 35c-75c US per album or greatest hits collection. Then there are the various Creative Commons licensed music sites.

      Works for me, particularly considering most commercial music today is overproduced slop I wouldn't buy or download on a bet.

    11. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Artists work. They deserve to be paid for what they do.

      Not really. They are not entitled to be paid only because they create art, since, at any level, any one creates art in the modern sense, even unconsciouslly.

      Artists who sell their works and find buyers for said work are the ones who are entitled to receive payment. But they they are not artists anymore, they are just doing commerce.

      And this is why the work of agents and intermediaries has some worth on this economic system, because many artists suck at finding buyers.

    12. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by Maudib · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Of the content I download, an extraordinarily small fraction of it is ever imported in to my media library. Most of it I download simple so that I am then in turn able to help other people obtain it for free. I download and distribute because I want to cause harm to companies and individuals that stole from the commons. I have zero interest in most of what they produce and will never personally watch/listen/read the vast majority that I download.

      As I am coming from a highly cynical POV that has decided civil disobedience is the best path to defending the commons, I can easily understand your own cynicism and difficulty in believing that "piracy" is ever anything other then selfishly motivated. However I assure you that one can in fact be both a cynic and an idealist.

    13. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      Someone can "work" for me as much as they want, but it doesn't mean that they "deserve to be paid" anymore than some annoying mime or street musician. "Exploitation" involves profiting off of someone's labor, which is something agents and dealers do, not the people who briefly watch a performer without paying, and not consumer-pirates.

      It's pretty pathetic working all day and then handing over the cash earned to relax during one's time off, because one is too tired to actually live. Entertainment has no or negative value, so there is really no moral argument to be made for paying for it. Is it wrong to steal from a crack dealer?

    14. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by Draek · · Score: 1

      Yeah, so? the question isn't whether somebody somewhere is listening to Paul McCartney's songs for free, the question is whether the guy who decided his song *was* worth $1 to him should be inconvenienced by DRM.

      Don't use DRM, and I'll support you against the infringer. Use it, and I won't give a crap about you. Defend it, and I'll go out of my way to aid the infringement.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    15. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mainly because printed works are still the most convenient format. Reading online doesn't work well, and no everyone has a kindle. But if someone can download a copy and peruse, they may go "Hey, I can't read on my laptop on the bus easily, but if I buy the print version, I can!" And they will spend $6-$9.

      Artists who can't leverage the net will sit and whine about it.

    16. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by qnetter · · Score: 1

      There is no guarantee of payment, true. But then, there's no guarantee of your right to access the art, either.

    17. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by abigsmurf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Most of Da Vinci's great works were commissioned or sold. He would not have been able to live like he did if he wasn't very well paid for his work.

    18. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by abigsmurf · · Score: 1

      You do not have the right for people to produce content for you free of charge. Just because you can access their content (with or without their consent), it doesn't give you the right to expect them to work for nothing. Of course there's no garentee an artist's work will sell. Does that mean you have the right to view it for free because they have the audacity to want compensation for their time? Replace "artist" with the word "worker". Artists are not some freak breed of people that will work for free. Da Vinci, Michelangelo, Shakespeare, all of their best work was commissioned and you had to pay to watch a shakespeare play.

    19. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by shmlco · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "I download and distribute because I want to cause harm to companies and individuals that stole from the commons."

      That's a BS argument. Even if copyright were a mere 7 or 14 or 20 years, I bet 90% of the content you steal and distribute is less than a year or so old, and as such would STILL BE PROTECTED UNDER LAW.

      And you may think it's some sort of civil disobedience, but I'll also bet that the vast majority of the people you're supporting could care less. They simply prefer to steal music and movies and software because they can and then spend the money saved on beer.

      And if you REALLY want to help the "commons", then spend a year or so writing a book or producing great music or a movie and then give it away under Creative Commons. Create something worthwhile, if you can. Hell, any pea-brain can run a torrent server and delude themselves that they're "making a difference."

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    20. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by rolfwind · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Imagine that, commissioned or sold? Are you saying he didn't retain lifelong copyright on his works and they could have been freely imitated without recieving royalities? That means he would have to keep on working rather than resting easy after the Mona Lisa and making the next project?

      I find it 100x more disgusting that his descendents don't recieve their due royalties as copyright obviously should be artist's life + 9999999999999999999999 years.

    21. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by CarpetShark · · Score: 1

      taking advantage of someone's enjoyment of their work by not paying them is called exploitation

      Or indeed, by paying them ;)

    22. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Last time I checked, taking advantage of someone's enjoyment of their work by not paying them is called exploitation. How about, if because you like to program, your employer decided not to pay you.

      You missed the point. The original poster claimed that he writes only for profit and not for our amusement. And that is an attitude which is very likely to produce the sort of work you would have to pay me that I read it.

      If I were an employer and would think about hiring a programmer, one of the most important considerations would be if the candidate likes programming. I certainly would prefer one who likes programming, but lacks specific knowledge to someone who knows everything I need, but only programs in order to get money.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    23. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If an artist choses to produce art, there is no guarantee of payment. None. Why should there be? "

      ARRRGGHH!

      Yes, the majority of work an artist produces won't sell. That is the risk professional artists take. Thousands of works are discarded to make just a few great ones.

      That is also why, when you finally manage to create one thing that people actually want, you should damm well get paid for it!

    24. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by tjstork · · Score: 1

      it's hard to be sympathetic.

      Lars signed the contracts with Sony. The work was his right up until he sold, well, his soul. Other artists have famously gotten much better deals, including full control of their catalog.

      --
      This is my sig.
    25. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by tjstork · · Score: 1

      Until the Copyright Term Extension Act is rescinded, I consider all media produced by "artists" affiliated with the companies/guilds/unions that bought the law, to be free.

      So, how will you feel when someone else considers anything you produce to be free?

      --
      This is my sig.
    26. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by MHDK · · Score: 2, Insightful

      RE: "The question is, is a Paul McCartney song worth a $1 to you. If so, then pony up. Otherwise, don't listen to it."

      No, the question is: What is the value of the work overall? Markets don't provide an answer to that question any better than a Joe Random's subjective assessment.

      If you still don't understand, let me put it in terms even the typical mercantile-minded drone can understand: Copyright is a monopoly, monopolies misprice everything, the price of copyrighted material cannot be determined by a market. Moreover, the market clearing price of something which has a zero marginal cost is zero. Information no longer has to be packaged up in physical blocks, so the true market price of information is zero, just as Adam telling Joe a joke has no cost.

      Perhaps with no laws against non-commercial copying a large number of authors will stop writing. Perhaps so. But people will still want to share their ideas with one another and will write them down. And without publishers making a pointless cut on an artificially created scarcity (i.e. via DRM and copyright) there will be no gatekeepers determining what can be published or not. A conservative should be appaulding this! Or is liberty and the individual enterprise only a concern in limited situations?

      Using the market as a means to determine the value of information is becoming more and more untenable, both technologically and ethically. Using the market requires that the natural inclination to share information (i.e. to communicate) is fatuously characterised as "piracy", and can only work by sabotaging free market mechanisms with government-backed monopoly selling of artificially created scarcities.

      But no! Apparently conservatives are all in favour of monopolies, against free markets determining price and in favour of BIG government in the form of law enforcement of non-commercial copyright infringement!

    27. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by JPLemme · · Score: 1

      I don't think we actually disagree on this at all, but to clarify...

      Metallica was on Elektra when the Napster issue occurred. I'm sure that by 1999 their record deal was much more in their favor than your bog-standard "first recording contract". So I think it's fair to say that (details aside) they were receiving a fair percentage of their album sales, and thus anything that affected their sales affected their pocketbooks fairly directly.

      There have also been cases (e.g. Jen Trynin) where artists manage to get enough clout or buzz to get better-than-normal terms on their first record deal. It's not common, but it happens.

      But in a typical first record deal, the artist needs to sell 250,000-500,000 copies before they see a dime because the contract stipulates that most of the money spent producing and promoting the album needs to be recouped before the royalties start to flow to the artist. Which would be OK except that the artist has virtually no control over how this money is spent. So the label takes the band out for an expensive lunch and then charges the lunch to the band's recoupable expenses account. There's no question that the label is putting its money on the line and that on most releases they won't get their money back, but it's still hard for me to feel bad about it in the way that I would if the artist was scrimping and saving to get their music out and promote it on a shoestring budget.

    28. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Last time I checked, taking advantage of someone's enjoyment of their work by not paying them is called exploitation. How about, if because you like to program, your employer decided not to pay you.

      Remember, this is slashdot. It's only exploitation if a company does it.

    29. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by j_166 · · Score: 1

      "Works for me, particularly considering most commercial music today is overproduced slop I wouldn't buy or download on a bet."

      I bet you a million dollars you would.

    30. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by joaobranco · · Score: 1

      Until the Copyright Term Extension Act is rescinded, I consider all media produced by "artists" affiliated with the companies/guilds/unions that bought the law, to be free.

      So, how will you feel when someone else considers anything you produce to be free?

      Free to make copies of? I would assume he feels OK with that.

    31. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by j_166 · · Score: 1

      Actually, its not supply and demand economics at all. Its 'middleman economics'. Paul McCartney is (or was at some point) just thrilled that a given person will pay *any* amount of money to listen to his song. Similarly, anyone who liked Paul's music would pay any amount up to an arbitrary reasonable price (set by factors external to the transaction) to listen to it. This is well documented historical fact that is undebatable because Paul is rich and billions love his music.

      The problem is the battalion of middlemen who decided that they too should become rich off of the efforts of Paul McCartney. Some legitimately deserve to make money at it because they are as essential in the process as the artist, some not so much. Somewhere along the line, America became an army of middlemen, mostly because it was really hard to produce studio quality art on any sort of scale that led to adequate compensation, thus there was a market demand for shitloads of middlemen.

      In most of the examples I've seen of people bitching about copyright violations and DRM, it's not the artist. The general artists that I read about still remain tickled pink that people want to consume their work AND pay any amount for it, all the better if they can make a living at it. Yeah you still have your Lars Ulrich's and such, but there are many more Radioheads and Trent Reznors.

      The internet is the hammer that we can use to break the chains of middleman economics. If anything, it is crushing the demand for the middleman and the ones who survive and thrive in this new paradigm are the ones who understand that. And that goes for ANY online endeavor, be it music, books, news, or whatever.

    32. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by j_166 · · Score: 1

      "I do it because its easier than purchasing."

      The corollary to that is that there are times when I purchase because its easier that pirating. Amazon is a good example of this. I own a Kindle. If its a book I want to read AND its available in the Kindle store AND its not ridiculously priced, I purchase it directly from Amazon. Note that I don't give a rat's ass about DRM. It doesn't even enter the equation for me. However, violate any one of these conditions and I search out a torrent.

      And therein lies the business model of the new paradigm. Lower the barriers, sell more books/tracks/games/movies. Period. Full stop. Note that that doesn't mean you have to have absolutely no barriers, just that they need be low enough to compete with the pirates, who work under the same rules, just twisted for the black market, ie I don't neccessarily have to want to read it (although that's a bonus) but it has to attract my interest, it has to be available in the pirate market (surprising amounts of stuff I look for just aren't), and it has to have a low technical cost (ie no private trackers, no weird software installs, right platform/codec/format, no malware, adequate download time, veracity of content, ie I know the work has not been significantly altered).

      The two markets can very much compete on these terms, but the legitimate market is seemingly unwilling to.

    33. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by maxume · · Score: 1

      Copyright exists to promote distribution.

      Given that distribution has more or less become free (no really, it has, for example, Apple would be happy to bear the cost of distribution for a huge swath of popular music, just to support hardware sales; they might limit it to people that paid them for hardware though), it may make sense to rethink copyright in terms of rights to commercial exploitation, rather than rights to distribution.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    34. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, at least he got paid in full. For all his work and materials. And boy, would it have been expensive.

      The problem with piracy is that the artist often doesn't get paid at all. If making an low budget indie album costs £10,000, and you only sell one copy which everyone then pirates, you have made a huge loss.

      If the the pirates stumped up the £10,000 at the beginning, like Da Vinci's patrons, I'm sure all musicians would be overjoyed.

    35. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by 2obvious4u · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I chose the "don't listen". Now if everyone else would too...

      Then maybe prices would get to be about $0.15 each like they should be, or better yet the music should be treated like an ad for the artist and be given out for free to generate an interest to see them in concert.

      Listening to music in the car is great, seeing it live is in a league of its own.

    36. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by inquisitive_cherub · · Score: 1

      The surge in actual book sales was probably due to the preference most people would have had (especially 10 years ago) to read the physical book rather than a digital copy on a desktop CRT screen. The pirated versions were effective marketing tools leading interested readers to the *real* product.

      When (if?) e-readers become more ubiquitous, would authors still be so nonchalant about directing readers to pirated versions that are no different from the actual product?

    37. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by 2obvious4u · · Score: 1

      You'd bet wrong if you're betting 90%, realistically its probably the other way around. Any 80's music would all be passed the 20 year mark, all of Motown would be in the public domain, 70's rock. All of the Beatles music... The majority of Aerosmith. The vast majority of music out there is older than 7 years. I may just be getting old, but has any good music been made in the last 7 years?

    38. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The vast majority of music out there is older than 7 years. I may just be getting old, but has any good music been made in the last 7 years?

      I think the number you're looking for is 17 years, although that doesn't invalidate the majority of your argument.

    39. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

      But when Sony argues that they're defending the "rights of the artists" whilst taking 100% of the artist's royalties until promotional bills are paid in full (thus forcing the artist to pay for the production and promotion of the recording, but without actually giving the artist control over the budget for production or promotion), it's hard to be sympathetic.

      I don't think it's easy to be sympathetic with either party to that kind of deal. Don't absolve the artists so easily. They have the option not to enter into such a contract. What you find, however, is that there are plenty of dumbasses willing to enter into rotten deals with the record label without thinking it very well, because they're thinking of living out some sort of rock 'n roll fantasy.

    40. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by civilizedINTENSITY · · Score: 1

      "no guarantee of your right to access the art, either", but if it is for instance broadcast on the radio, do I have the right to take note of the changes in my property ( a hunk of metal ) that your broadcast is forcing to make happen? If I look close enough, I perceive the music playing there. I didn't ask you to trespass with this signal, and I doubt I retain the authority to make you stop. OK, fine. But to suggest I shouldn't record it seems wrong. Limit access, and charge to see the two-headed woman, fine. But don't parade her around the downtown square and then want to charge.

    41. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, actually, you did. You tuned to the station, therefore accepted the single listen to anything they play.

    42. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If an artist is hired to do work, he deserves to paid for the work he does as per the agreement. If an artist choses to produce art, there is no guarantee of payment. None. Why should there be?

      There is no guarantee of payment when I try to sell a short story. In fact, I've been rejected quite a number of times. However, you've diverted from the issue of whether taking, without paying, a work that someone is trying to sell in order to make money is an alright thing to do.

      A sweet smelling rose bush is worth a $1 to me, for sure. But do you have the right to ask me for $1 to enjoy that rose bush?

      If I own the rose bush and the property it's on, then yes, I do. If on the other hand, I don't own the bush or the land, then no, I don't. That's really off the topic, though.

      The real question is should we continue to pretend that nonmaterial productions should count as property? Does the societal benefit of such an artifical and arbitrary distinction outweigh the cost? That is the real question.

      The question you pose seems odd to me. If someone writes something, why should they not have the right to attempt to sell the work? You appear to be saying that if I take around five hundred hours of work to write a short novel, edit it, and re-edit in the attempt to make it as good as I can make it, that I shouldn't have the right to attempt to sell it to anyone. Why not? The ideas were mine, the text was mine, and the effort involved was mine. If I can't count the final work as my property, I'm unable to attempt to find a buyer as I choose to, or not, as the case may be. In that case, what is my, or anyone else's, motivation to put that amount of work into a project?

      Most people are constantly immersed in "nonmaterial productions", with video games, television, movies, books, and music all falling under that heading. It seems a simple fact that if no one can claim them as property, no one will be able to provide for themselves by making them. Some will still create these things, to be sure, but without a way to retain some benefit from the work they produce, most won't.

    43. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Last time I checked, taking advantage of someone's enjoyment of their work by not paying them is called exploitation. How about, if because you like to program, your employer decided not to pay you.

      Artists work. They deserve to be paid for what they do. If you don't want to have art on your computer, you can choose to not pay for it. But if it is valuable enough that you might be motivated to go out of your way to get some DRM breaking device, chances are, that means it is valuable, even to you. That means, don't steal it.

      The question isn't whether, for example, Paul McCartney made a billion dollars off of his music, or Steven Spielberg made a billion dollars off of his movies. The question is, is a Paul McCartney song worth a $1 to you. If so, then pony up. Otherwise, don't listen to it.

      It's pretty simple, really.

      Yeah, except that the majority of pirates wouldn't buy the software/music/movies in the first place. Who do you know that has enough money to fill an iPod?

    44. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...your employer decided not to pay you.

      Oh? You work for HP, too?

    45. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by Maudib · · Score: 1

      "I bet 90% of the content you steal and distribute is less than a year or so old, and as such would STILL BE PROTECTED UNDER LAW."

      You are missing the point. This doesn't matter to me. I don't care about the content I am downloading. What I care about is causing harm to the companies, guilds, unions and individuals that have stolen and are working to steal from the commons. I don't care if the content would be protected otherwise, I don't care if the content is good or bad or if I will ever consume it. All I want to do is cause harm to the thieving bastards behind the Copyright Extension Act, DMCA, etc. With a lot of luck we can put them out of business. With a little luck they will go so far over the top with restrictive legislation, that it will all become impossible to enforce and meaningless.

      On a sidenote- I happily buy content from artists that are unaffiliated with any of the organizations.

    46. Re:Artists deserve to get paid. by Maudib · · Score: 1

      The artists I am talking about have contributed to theft of billions of dollars of value from the commons. I think artists should be paid, and deserve a limited monopoly on the sale of their work. Its just the ones under discussion in this portion of the thread are thieves and have forfeited that right as far as I am concerned.

      I would never copy or distribute someone's work without their permission, assuming they aren't part of the effort to steal from the commons in the first place. Sadly this is almost all writers and artists. Its civil disobedience aimed at changing the behavior of the original transgressors. If the artists want us to respect their copyrights, then they should start by respecting the commons and the general rights of society. Until then every bit of downloaded and distributed media is just value repatriated to the commons.

  13. ALL virtual effort is a commodity by headkase · · Score: 1

    I submitted the following to the firehose the other day but it has relevance in this context as well:

    Encoding Effort by headkase
    Within 15 years or so 3D Engines will have reached a point where they are indistinguishable from actual reality. At this time several business models are at risk. Hollywood will see the commoditization of entertainment blockbusters and the infrastructure itself, a 3D engine, will also see standardization. I agree with Richard Stallman in that I do fundementally believe that software should be free. But what is software? Traditionally it is seen as source-code. But its name is evident. It is an encoding of effort into a machine-specific ability. Programmers encode 3D engines, artists encode models, authors encode content. What has seen the first advance into Free is code but other forms of encoding effort will begin to appear as the ecosystem matures. Machinima with a completely realistic output paired with free graphics and sounds and other community developed content will be within reach of any individual with a personal computer. Where I disagree with Mr. Stallman is that I believe that while it is inevitable that Free will eventually win and individuals can use a "stone-soup" analogy to further develop common goals it is not immoral to receive compensation for effort expended in a specific case. This could mean that an artist accepts a bounty and creates a specific piece of content for an entity. The summation of this paragraph is that Free is inevitable but at the same time I'd like to buy some beer.

    What Open Source represents is giving your little bit to get a lot in return or the "Stone Soup" analogy. What will enable Open to flourish is creating a finer granularity of effort. In the above example Hollywood studios organize vast pools of talent to create a singular work under wraps until completion. Consider when content creation tools have reached reality. The Open future is many artists creating code, character models, voice profiles, scripts, props and everything in between. The Bazaar will allow us all to remix these building blocks into something greater than we could achieve individually. And your entertainment will be rendered in real-time according to your rig's abilities. All effort that ends up as bits will become a commodity when Open Methods are applied. It is simply a matter of time, different for each niche, until this reality occurs. This does not rule out wealth (potential) however as to get non-virtual things done you will still need that.

    --
    Shh.
    1. Re:ALL virtual effort is a commodity by Animats · · Score: 1

      Hollywood will see the commoditization of entertainment blockbusters...

      Yeah, right. A bunch of open source enthusiasts will create a blockbuster movie. This is a crowd that can't create a decent set of desktop icons or logos that don't suck.

      The tools for creating a good effects movie are available right now. Download Blender. Here's some good work done with Blender.. Unless you have real talent, you'll only be able to make crap with it. Sorry.

      Look at YouTube. The Onion's take on YouTube is apt. If YouTube ever gets a plagiarism detection system that works, YouTube will die. Almost all the good content is a copy of something. Taking video is easy. Making a good movie is very hard. Assembling bits of clip art won't cut it.

      A few years back, I was talking to a successful Hollywood director about where the technology was going. What he wanted was technology that would allow him to make a major film for about $10 million to $20 million, with a staff of 20-50 people, instead of needing $100 million and the services of over 500 people. We still don't have that. That's the technical challenge.

      "Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow" was an attempt at a low-budget high-look production. The guy behind that actually tried to make the movie at home on a Mac, over a period of years. Not good enough. (The result can be seen in the "special features" section of the movie's DVD.) Producing the movie for real ultimately cost nearly $100 million, even though it was almost entirely green-screen work.

    2. Re:ALL virtual effort is a commodity by headkase · · Score: 1

      You're thinking of editing each polygon in Blender. I'm thinking of 15 more years of accrued content that is licensed under Free models and then posing those assets like Garry's Mod or Spore.

      --
      Shh.
    3. Re:ALL virtual effort is a commodity by maxume · · Score: 1

      I don't know the details, but Robert Rodriguez seems to run a pretty light ship (Spy Kids, Sin City, the Mariachi films).

      Not megabudget effects films by any means, but plenty of action and, at least reliable quality.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    4. Re:ALL virtual effort is a commodity by Animats · · Score: 1

      I don't know the details, but Robert Rodriguez seems to run a pretty light ship (Spy Kids, Sin City, the Mariachi films).

      A few directors are good at cost control. Not many. Roger Corman (read his book "How I Made a Hundred Movies in Hollywood and Never Lost a Dime") is the all-time champion on getting production value at low, low cost. It's not about equipment cost, by the way. It's about time management.

  14. Kindle will be bigger than iPod. by tjstork · · Score: 1

    Kindle will be bigger than iPod because Amazon is so huge in the publishing industry and they appear to be writer friendly. What are you going to do? Write a book for free on the internet? Or write it and sell it on Kindle? A book is a lot of fricking work, but Kindle opens doors to a lot of authors.

    --
    This is my sig.
  15. Some things... by tjstork · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is why museums were created, and...lets face it, most painters are no da Vinci.

    Actually, most painters today in good art schools are better painters than Da Vinci could ever have hoped to become. We don't study old masters because they were somehow better than the people that came after, but, because they broke new ground and showed the way to do things. Seriously, go walk into a good art school, and you'll find 19 year olds kids painting things that DaVinci could never have even dreamed up, but then they get bored and go onto looking for something new.

    it doesn't necessarily mean they enjoy paying $10m for the privilege of looking at it.

    But to see a DaVinci painting or a painting by any major master is probably not free. In the very least, the musuem has an active and ongoing fundraising drive in addition to charging for major exhibits.

    The same is true on a much smaller scale. Someone may enjoy reading Anne Rice, but will go to a library and read The Mummy for free

    Yeah, but those people are stupid. They would pay an easy $10 in gasoline, public transportation and possibly a library membership to go to the library and read the Anne Rice book, when could have just gone to Amazon.com and bought the thing and had it delivered to your doorstep.

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:Some things... by maxume · · Score: 3, Interesting

      One of my parents neighbors walks to the library and reads the paper. I think he even enjoys the exercise.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:Some things... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Quoth the OP: "Yeah, but those people are stupid. They would pay an easy $10 in gasoline, public transportation and possibly a library membership to go to the library and read the Anne Rice book, when could have just gone to Amazon.com and bought the thing and had it delivered to your doorstep."

      Or just walk there from work, which takes all of 3 minutes each way, and get a stack of books on subjects with many currently out-of-print and unavailable in the commercial market. Plus I get the book immediately and don't have to wait for Amazon to deliver it - or the postal service to decide to keep it at their depot while I have to go and collect it. I can even check online if it's available which is cool and saves wasted journeys.

      If I really want a book to keep, I'll pay for it. No problems there. But quite often, I just want to use one for reference for a few things so the library is a God-send to me. I must have taken out over 20 books in the last month or so which would have cost hundreds of dollars as many of these were heavy-weight text books, and yes some were out of print and over-priced (ie, collectable) on the second-hand market. Total cost to me of all this lending: zero outside of a few pennies in taxes and the knowledge that culture is being preserved for anyone to access.

      So what's stupid about me doing this? More books, better choice, lower cost? I fail to see what I'm doing that's so dumb. Please enlighten me.

    3. Re:Some things... by icebraining · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In my case, I have a free (tax paid, no memberships) public library 15 *walking* minutes from my house that lets me take the book home for one week.
      Amazon takes at least 3 days to get the books to my doorstep, and as I'm never home in the morning when the mailman comes, I have to pick up the books from the post office.

      Libraries clearly win in this case.

    4. Re:Some things... by nausea_malvarma · · Score: 4, Funny

      You pay 10$ in gas to drive to the library? What do you drive? A Hummer h2?

    5. Re:Some things... by tjstork · · Score: 2, Insightful

      .In my case, I have a free (tax paid, no memberships) public library 15 *walking* minutes from my house that lets me take the book home for one week....Libraries clearly win in this case.

      Unless you are the guy that has to drive 20 miles to get to the library, to find out that you've taken out the book that they wanted, for a week....

      So... libraries don't win, overall. In your example, they only win for you.

      --
      This is my sig.
    6. Re:Some things... by Eternauta3k · · Score: 0, Redundant

      I'm not fat and I can bench nearly 300lbs

      [citation needed]

      So you can shove your fat american stereotypes up your starving little third world ass.

      I hope you were shooting for sarcasm

      --
      Yeah. Would you choose a neurosurgeon who pokes around people's brains in his spare time? I wouldn't.
    7. Re:Some things... by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      "If you people actually paid for stuff, you might have an economy."

      Yes, because America's economy is doing so well, and it is because we pay for things like the birthday song. Yeah, the reason the third world is so poor is that they are busy sharing books and music instead of paying for individual copies. You should probably go ahead and apply to be chairman of the world bank, since you seem to have all the answers for the world's economic problems.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    8. Re:Some things... by Enigma2175 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      .In my case, I have a free (tax paid, no memberships) public library 15 *walking* minutes from my house that lets me take the book home for one week....Libraries clearly win in this case.

      Unless you are the guy that has to drive 20 miles to get to the library, to find out that you've taken out the book that they wanted, for a week....

      So... libraries don't win, overall. In your example, they only win for you.

      What library doesn't have their card catalog online these days? If you're driving 20 miles without checking to see if they have your book first then you lose. Maybe libraries don't win, but you still lose.

      --

      Enigma

    9. Re:Some things... by seekret · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but those people are stupid. They would pay an easy $10 in gasoline, public transportation and possibly a library membership to go to the library and read the Anne Rice book, when could have just gone to Amazon.com and bought the thing and had it delivered to your doorstep.

      I read books from the library all the time, membership is free and it's walking distance from my house. I would be more willing to buy ebooks from the Amazon store if there was no DRM. I paid for it so I should have the right to do what I want. Until they remove the DRM I will stick with old fashioned paper, but once the price of electronic ink ebook readers comes down and they remove the DRM from the product I will buy one.

    10. Re:Some things... by Ian+Alexander · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, but those people are stupid. They would pay an easy $10 in gasoline, public transportation and possibly a library membership to go to the library and read the Anne Rice book, when could have just gone to Amazon.com and bought the thing and had it delivered to your doorstep.

      I think your statement is stupid. If I didn't have a bus pass the total cost to me of going to the library would be 75 cents per trip. Since I do have a bus pass it's not even that much; I ride the bus so often that the cost per trip is probably closer to a quarter for me. I don't know about you, but I would be very hard-pressed to find a book whose total cost- including shipping- was 25 cents on Amazon and arrived at my house an hour after I decided I wanted a book. I think it would be pretty difficult to do that for 75 cents, as well. Additionally, when I go to the library I don't have to scour their catalog looking for such a book like I would have to do for Amazon.

      Just because in your particular circumstances, it may be more cost-effective to buy from Amazon in general doesn't mean that the people for whom the library does work are stupid.

      And if you're paying $10 in gas every trip you make I'd consider getting a hybrid.

    11. Re:Some things... by Ian+Alexander · · Score: 2, Funny

      2 of them, actually. He's got a lot of books to read!

    12. Re:Some things... by meta-monkey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      For you. My library is 30 minutes away. I'm extremely busy and travel a lot for work, but love to read and go through one or two books a week. So, I buy Kindle books for my iPhone for $4-6 bucks a pop. I save myself a trip across town, I always have my books with me, and when I finish a book at 2AM and decide I have to start on the sequel, I press a couple of buttons on my phone and there it is. Does it cost $4-6 more than waiting until I'm back home next week and driving across town to the library? Yes, but I'm willing to pay for the convenience. Also...seriously, it's pocket change. A full novel, delivered to me wirelessly and instantly, for about what I'd pay for a meal at McDonalds.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    13. Re:Some things... by lena_10326 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ehhh... I've been to art school. Most students couldn't paint a paper bag. I'd consider 10% of those students "good" and maybe 1% "great". I think the rest either get good after working years in a commercial setting or totally wash out and do something else. It's rare you will find modern art as detailed or meaningful as the best work produced by renaissance masters. Of course, the photorealists are an exception with respect to detail, but those artists essentially copy photos of real scenes: not much allegory or deep meaning in those pieces. I would not make generalities regarding who's better--modern artists (including students) or painters of antiquity. Human ability and talent is the same today as it was then, so the work of any time period will reflect a broad spectrum from crap to great. Also remember that today's students have an enormous advantage: high quality paints and artist tools, cameras, printed photos, libaries, computers, illustration software, and the internet. Plus the understanding of perspective drawing was very poor prior to 1700ish, not to mention students today don't even have to gather materials and make their own paints. It's my opinion today's students should be light years better than the masters but they're not. It's probably because we value quantity and speed of production over quality and meaning.

      --
      Camping on quad since 1996.
    14. Re:Some things... by dna_(c)(tm)(r) · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Plus the understanding of perspective drawing was very poor prior to 1700ish

      ...and so the current generation builds on the knowledge and experience gathered by their predecessors.

      [sarcasm]Great thing we now have "Intellectual Property" and virtually unlimited copyright, DRM, DMCA ... to drive innovation[/sarcasm]

    15. Re:Some things... by tjstork · · Score: 1

      I hope you were shooting for sarcasm

      Pretty much. The guy just ticked me off. The essential financial problem of the world is that every country on the planet has designed their economies to export to the USA in a mercantile fashion, and suddenly, Americans have decided to save their money, rather than buy products with it.

      --
      This is my sig.
    16. Re:Some things... by tjstork · · Score: 1

      And if you're paying $10 in gas every trip you make I'd consider getting a hybrid.

      No, I think it means that you live in the city, and I don't. I could see libraries making more sense if you live downtown, but then, you pay higher costs of everything else, for the right to live in the city. So, even then, libraries are expensive.

      --
      This is my sig.
    17. Re:Some things... by tjstork · · Score: 1

      It's probably because we value quantity and speed of production over quality and meaning.

      I would say that to be the case. I mean, how long did it take for Rembrandt to make one painting? It was a long process.

      --
      This is my sig.
    18. Re:Some things... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude give up. You fail. Massively.

    19. Re:Some things... by xaxa · · Score: 1

      Unless you are the guy that has to drive 20 miles to get to the library, to find out that you've taken out the book that they wanted, for a week....

      So... libraries don't win, overall. In your example, they only win for you.

      Even before library catalogues were online it was easy enough to phone and ask if a book was available. If it was, the librarian would even reserve it for you (so no one else can borrow it). I think mine charges 50p for reserving a book, but just borrowing one and being a member is free.

    20. Re:Some things... by lena_10326 · · Score: 1

      It often did, but they would have several going in parallel. The major reason is it takes a few days for oil paint to fully dry and you need it dry before painting the next layer. Also the paintings were usually heavily designed and planned out in advance, which requires time to do sketches and studies.

      --
      Camping on quad since 1996.
    21. Re:Some things... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The person stated "walking" minutes, not "driving" minutes. And in any case, how do you arrive at $10 in gas for a fifteen minute ride? In general (not directed at the poster), gearheads like to overstate their own intelligence until you bring it down to dollars and sense, and they get all fuddled about the true value of a dollar.

  16. A question of balance by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 1

    Anyone who chooses the solution that fails to balance the need for open and the need to make money has got it wrong. A device like the kindle should support both free and paid-for content. The real issue at stake is that of format. The book is a universal format and all you need is a press to make one, and a bit of effort to copy. An electronic device works on using specific data formats, and if you aren't careful risks locking you in to one solution.

    The Kindle might be the first true electronic book reader, but there needs to be an approach that allows anyone to make a book reader, while taking into account the publisher's and author's investment into the work.

    I appreciate open source as much as the next person, but I also understand that if we don't reward the authors of our favourite works we run the risk of discouraging them from writing the next book.

    --
    Jumpstart the tartan drive.
  17. Money = success by mrmeval · · Score: 2

    The one true measure of success in writing is money. Not some babbling reviewer from Publisher Weakly. But cold hard cash. It's a measure of how popular and respected your work is.

    --
    I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
    1. Re:Money = success by nausea_malvarma · · Score: 1

      because every writer is motivated by popularity or respect /sarcasm

  18. Lame by commodoresloat · · Score: 3, Funny

    when the first iPod came out, it was the smallest player with the highest capacity

    Not true at all. It had less space than a Nomad!

    And no wireless!!

    1. Re:Lame by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      In case you didn't know, the Nomad was huge. About the size of a portable CD player, a far cry from the (at the time) tiny iPod.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
  19. Customer service at Amazon is by mrmeval · · Score: 1

    Amazing actually. I ordered some gifts for a friend then found out they'd moved while the order was in route to their old address.
    I informed Amazon of this and they refunded my money before the packages arrived at the wrong address. I've now reordered them and they are on their way to the new address. I was pretty shocked they'd do this.

    --
    I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
  20. Mid 1990s? by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

    What was true for a business in the mid 1990s is not necessarily good for a different business in 2009.

    --
    There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    1. Re:Mid 1990s? by freedom_india · · Score: 1

      The pursuit of profit is was a valid goal for businesses in mid 1990s and good for a different business in 2009.
      Why should Kindle allow open standards? That allows a zillion others to post content into it without providing money to Amazon.
      That's the last thing a CEO wants.
      Instead, if a CEO were to increase revenue for his company he would insist on closed products which have no APU visible to outsiders and a powerful legal team that defeats every attempt to pry it open.
      That's why Toshiba didn't release its HD spec into public: it would get sued immediately.

      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
    2. Re:Mid 1990s? by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      The Kindle will display a well-documented and for all practical purposes format - .mobi. Books in this format have no DRM or other restrictions. You can download one from Gutenburg anytime and it displays just fine on the Kindle.

      The Kindle will also display a format that Amazon came up with for THEIR books. This has no effect on displaying unrestricted DRM-free books from others.

    3. Re:Mid 1990s? by freedom_india · · Score: 1

      No No no. That's not what i meant.
      I agree on mobi format. i can create an un-DRM mobi and read it on kindle.
      The fact is that mobi itself is owned by amazon. Not by Gutenberg or an open standard.
      So, anyday Amazon can refuse to allow creation of non-DRM books for any reason. That day Kindle will become opaque.
      Can kindle read JPG formats?
      Can kindle read other open standards of book packaging?

      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
  21. News and open standard by oldhack · · Score: 1

    Newspaper content would be great for open (no DRM) format. If download/subscription cost is nominal, who would copy last week's news to save a buck? Neat for public transit commuters.

    But this is too obvious. They must have thought of it.

    --
    Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
  22. It's not so much the open standards by obarthelemy · · Score: 1

    as the apparent ability and willingness of Amazon to take back content and features at any time that turn me off.

    Sure, I like to really own something I bought, ie know for sure that 10 years down the road when Amazon is gone I'll still be able to read my books, and that's open standards.

    But with their current policy, I'm not even sure I'll be able to read my books tomorrow.

    Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

    --
    The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    1. Re:It's not so much the open standards by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Sure, I like to really own something I bought, ie know for sure that 10 years down the road when Amazon is gone I'll still be able to read my books, and that's open standards.

      Open standards doesnt guarantee that either, unless you plan on keeping todays hardware and software around and in working condition.

      "Popular" is much better that "open" given your requirements.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    2. Re:It's not so much the open standards by obarthelemy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      - "open standards" pretty much guarantee that you can port software, and interface hardware, to newer stuff. And that somebody will do it. I have 15+ year old ISA cards that still work in recent PCs. I'm 100% sure that my .txt, .jpg, .rtf, .html, ... files will be readable by my grandchildren, if they care. They might be able to hack my old parallel printer to actually print stuff on paper, and laugh at the idea.

      - "Popular" used to guarantee pretty much the same thing - I can still read my CP/M Wordstar Docs ! Except now with DRM and DMCA, it's harder, and it's a crime. I'm fairly sure you won't have a kindle reader + Windows 2035 / Ubuntu 40.10 synch software + amazon authentification server to access your Kindle books 25 years from now, and that Amazon won't be around, or willing, to help. And forget about the children ^^

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    3. Re:It's not so much the open standards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Open standards enable new products to import data from the old ones -- old hardware is not needed. Nothing guarantees that they will offer this functionality of course, but the possibility is there _for anyone_.

      As for popularity, the problem is that judging future popularity can be really tricky (see HD-DVD or countless other examples). Open standards are open in the future as well.

    4. Re:It's not so much the open standards by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Open standards enable new products to import data from the old ones -- old hardware is not needed. Nothing guarantees that they will offer this functionality of course, but the possibility is there _for anyone_.

      An unpopular open standard is unlikely to get such treatment, while a popular proprietary format is. It doesnt matter if its not popular in the future. Popularity equates to demand. As far as HD-DVD's.. your definition of popular seems to be wanting, since even BlueRay barely qualifies yet.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    5. Re:It's not so much the open standards by maxume · · Score: 1

      This simply presents a different value proposition; there are plenty of people who pay $15 because it is a convenient way to read a paper book, the idea of collecting the thing never occurs to them, they give it away, leave it somewhere or throw it in the trash.

      For those people, the availability and portability of the books on a Kindle are the primary consideration, not the different rights.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  23. You would still turn a profit by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You would still turn a profit even if you were using an open standard. You would just have to charge for things like printed copies -- I paid for a printed copy of a book recently, simply because a printed copy is easier to read than a digitized copy. No need for batteries, charges, or whatnot -- just an easy way to access information.

    Seriously, why are you so worried about people who trade files? This is a minority of people, and they are probably people who would not have purchased your book anyway, had the content not been available on some file sharing network. Seriously, the publishing industry is not threatened by people downloading books, it is threatened by people not bothering to read in the first place.

    --
    Palm trees and 8
  24. You are just an anti-electron bigot. :-) by tjstork · · Score: 3, Funny

    A sweet smelling rose bush is worth a $1 to me, for sure. But do you have the right to ask me for $1 to enjoy that rose bush?

    If it is my bush, I do. Otherwise, grow your own.

    The real question is should we continue to pretend that nonmaterial productions should count as property

    Or, you might say, how long do we pretend that just because something doesn't have a mass, it doesn't mean its free. People invest in, create, store, protect, and attempt to trade digital works just as much as any physical work. Of course its real....

    And really, while we are at it, just because something is represented by electron states doesn't mean that it is any less real than something that is represented by a more giant assembly of atoms and molecules. You just worship that neutron and proton, don't you. No matter what we little electrons do, spin, absorb photons, spit them out.. you just want to sit there with your buddy the big stupid neutron that doesn't do anything. Ever notice in Physics, that they don't have "neutron volts"... why, it's electron volts. Geez, wonder why that is. That's because neutrons are lazy. Oh we will just hang out and let the protons and electrons makes the atom do all of its interesting stuff. We'll just be stupid mass distorting spacetime and being useless. Let the electrons do all the work..Yeah, you go hang out with your "real" neutron buddies.

    SIGNED,

    SOB SOB SOB

    ELECTRON

    PS.. I GAVE UP MY LAST PHOTON FOR YOU, AND NOW i AM JUST THE LOWEST SHELL!

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:You are just an anti-electron bigot. :-) by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Wow, you sure put a different spin on that argument.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:You are just an anti-electron bigot. :-) by j_166 · · Score: 1

      His argument represents a quantum leap in the art of arguing.

    3. Re:You are just an anti-electron bigot. :-) by civilizedINTENSITY · · Score: 1

      You must have lost my argument along the way.

      First, one quick counter example to disprove your over reaching claim. If you plant a rose bush in your front yard next to the sidewalk, don't be surprised that people walking down the sidewalk don't want to pay a "rose tax" regardless of how hard you worked nurturing that rose. You could build a fence so they can't see it, but you can't charge them because its viewable. Thus, just because you invest time doesn't mean the end result is necessarily something that meets the criteria to be property. Its your rose bush, for sure. No one is suggesting otherwise. But its a public sidewalk. I'm walking down that sidewalk for free no matter how many roses you plant along the side of it.

      Second, you are putting the cart before the horse. If you have property, you can surely try to sell or trade it. If you are performing a service, you can charge for the performance of the service. The two both produce revenue, but buying a house is a transfer of property, whereas buying a blowjob is not. So the ability or lack thereof to generate revenue doesn't necessarily depend something having the status of property. It might be property, but you can't charge for it as a service (the enjoyment of your rose bush, if its publicly viewable). Or it might not be property, per say (sp?), but still you can generate revenue.

      Now when one tries to categorize these sorts of things, there are properties of property that non-property won't display. If you have a rose bush, and I come onto your land and dig it up and take it away, I deprive you of the right to your rose bush. If someone takes a picture of it then you aren't deprived of your rose bush, its still there. However, the ability to make perfect (or even just good enough) copies for almost no cost is altering the social dynamic. The ability to make recordings, originally, when such was a new technology and expensive, monetized music and created an industry. Its not surprising that the wide spread availability of such technology at the price it is available today is also creating sweeping changes. These things happen. Its all over history.

      What I think is more interesting is the phenomena whereby people are trying to attribute to books, and songs, and paintings, etc..., (and by which I don't mean a physical book, or a music CD, or an actual painting you could hang on a wall, but instead the "content" of the book, the "content" of the music CD, the "content" of the painting), the same sort of rights we used to reserve for property. The real question is, while its useful to pretend that "content" is property so long as the results are in the public good, isn't it a problem if we forget we are pretending?

  25. Re:That's all just backwards. by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "No, the fact of the matter is that open standards and this anti-commercialism that you speak of is really just a geeks way of saying that they are self indulgent and want to create for themselves."

    No, it is our way of saying that we are tired of being made into cash cows, and even more to the point, tired of being called communists, criminals, and terrorists just because we have a decent understanding of how computers work. We are sick of living in a society where everyone is trying to monetize everything -- now they even want to monetize our friendships with other people.

    "It's the guys at Microsoft and Apple that have to sweat deadlines, do focus groups, sift through the complaints of millions of users, the genuinely work for everyone else. They get paid for it."

    I am a Fedora contributor, and yet I get complains from Ubuntu, Debian, and Gentoo users all the time. Millions of bugzilla entries have been filed in various open source projects over the past year. The Fedora development list receives hundreds of messages a day discussing how to solve end user problems. We are not getting paid for it, but we still do it.

    "Windows is for the people that use it. Mac is for the people that use it. But, Linux is for the people that write it."

    No, Windows is for Microsoft and their investors. Mac is for Apple their investors. The fact that they have users is secondary to the fact that they can turn a profit. Linux is for anyone who wants it, for whatever they want to do with it. That is why we give it away, and grant everyone the right to use, study, modify, and share it.

    "You can rip me all you want, but just look at all the project managers of various Linux things, and their postings, and the things that strike you is that they are all about 'me' first."

    That would explain why the swfdec developers were so busy getting Youtube to work correctly with swfdec back when Torvalds sent them a message about how his wife was having trouble. That would explain why the Fedora developers took the time to create graphical configuration utilities even though we could configure our systems using ed as a text editor. That would explain why the Ubuntu developers bothered with creating an easy to use system. Yes, you certainly know what you are talking about.

    "Stallman, Torvalds, etc, are all pretty self-centered people. Me. Me. Me."

    Oh yes, that is why Torvalds had it out with Stallman over whether or not it is better for Linux users to deal with GPLv2 or GPLv3.

    "This solution is evil, that technology is terrible."

    Which is why the NSA uses it for mission critical systems.

    "Everything to them is black and white."

    Which is exactly why Stallman admitted that not everyone is going to take free software to the extreme that he takes it, and why Torvalds rejected GPLv3 for Linux because he wanted to leave open the option of using Linux for TiVo and similarly locked-down platforms. Yup, real black and white there.

    --
    Palm trees and 8
  26. There are alternatives by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 1

    for example Linux Mobile developers can try to port the Mobile version of Linux to the Kindle to replace the default OS and software.

    The Linux community could develop a Linux distribution to make a Linux based eBook reader that any company can make the hardware for and sell.

    I would recommend the later, I think a Linux based eBook reader would help bring down the costs of eBook readers and make the technology open to all to develop for it.

    I think O'Reilly is doing the right thing by adopting open source technology and making their eBooks readable from their web site, rather than pay Microsoft a fee and use a proprietary standard that is limited to only Windows. Reason being that O'Reilly does not just write books about Microsoft technology but Open Source Technology like Linux etc. How can you expect Linux developers to read MSN eBook formats under Linux when Microsoft won't support it? They would have to dual boot to Windows, read the eBook on Linux development, boot back to Linux, when stuck boot back to Windows and read more of the eBook. But if they can read the eBook under Linux it is a lot easier to get work done. Yeah they could run Windows in a virtual machine, but not all Linux developers and users want to do that, and many want a native Linux program to read their eBooks and not even bother with anything Windows based.

    --
    Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
    1. Re:There are alternatives by Eskarel · · Score: 3, Interesting

      First of all, open source and open standards are two totally separate things.

      Second, I'm fairly certain that the biggest cost in those things is the screen, followed by the hardware, followed by the name recognition mark up(Sony, Amazon), the percentage of the cost that the OS creates on a device whose entire purpose is to store, index, and display documents in a limited subset of formats is just not even worth mentioning. Half of slashdot could knock that kind of system up in a couple of months on their own.

      E-book readers are expensive because the OLED screens which are so necessary for them to be even remotely comfortable to read are really new technology and still really expensive and because the hardware is specialized largely to the purpose. Eventually we'll get economies of scale and that will drop the price quite dramatically, but OS licensing fees aren't even in it, Linux doesn't have code to run an ebook reader, and everything that isn't about running an ebook reader isn't necessary, so there's not much gain.

    2. Re:There are alternatives by jibster · · Score: 3, Informative

      All the big readers use e-Ink dispalys. Very different from OLED. Your point about the expense is still true.

    3. Re:There are alternatives by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      You're right, my brain was dead, replace OLED with e-Ink. Either way, putting linux on it is pretty much going to do nothing for the cost. To be honest I wouldn't be all that surprised if it's running some form of BSD or windows as is. It's sure as hell not windows.

    4. Re:There are alternatives by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      The Kindle is Linux-based. So are all other e-book readers that I have heard of.

    5. Re:There are alternatives by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      That was a brain lapse, BSD or Windows should read BSD or Linux.

  27. Re:That's all just backwards. by Mista2 · · Score: 1

    First they came for my digital media rights, I said nothing as I did not rip movies, then they came for my operating system choice, but I said nothing as I always just used whatever came with my PC, then they came for my freedom, and I could say nothing as we were all muzzled and controlled.

  28. Re:That's all just backwards. by SL+Baur · · Score: 2

    Windows is for the people that use it. Mac is for the people that use it. But, Linux is for the people that write it.

    Microsoft Windows is for the Microsoft shareholders to profit from. Macs are for the Apple shareholders to profit from.

    There, fixed that for you.

    You can rip me all you want, but just look at all the project managers of various Linux things, and their postings, and the things that strike you is that they are all about "me" first. Stallman, Torvalds, etc, are all pretty self-centered people.

    <sarcasm>Me, me, me! Neener, neener, neener!</sarcasm>

    I won't speak for anyone else, but the reason that I got into XEmacs project management was that XEmacs 19.14 was a lovely rose ... that smelled bad. Once it was stable, pretty fast and did everything I needed it to do (XEmacs 21.1) I lost interest. If that's self-centered, whatever.

    Since I now support IOS[1] and a host of other proprietary CSCO products, does that make me a better person than the evil open source project manager I used to be? Just asking.

    IMNSHO you're painting Linus with the wrong brush. I've long been of the opinion that someone should collect up his postings and edit them into a text book. It could be as important as The Bible - Elements of Programming Style http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Programming-Style-Brian-Kernighan/dp/0070342075 , the most significant computer book ever written.

    [1] And use XEmacs doing so ...

  29. Re:That's all just backwards. by rastoboy29 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Who else should they be working for?

    You?

    I trust the OSS guys to protect my interests a thousand times more than any random corp.

  30. Please mod them +100 Insightfull. by ShadowSystems · · Score: 1

    If you (a producer of entertainment) aren't entertaining , then you won't be making any money.

  31. Marketing rates: wtf, 70%? by jonaskoelker · · Score: 1

    They also 'helpfully' keep 70+% of the price end-users pay.

    Recall the Ask /. about software marketing. One poster named a company which will advertise your product and charge you 25% of every sale.

    I though 25% was a bit on the high side...

    1. Re:Marketing rates: wtf, 70%? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They also 'helpfully' keep 70+% of the price end-users pay.

      Recall the Ask /. about software marketing. One poster named a company which will advertise your product and charge you 25% of every sale.

      I though 25% was a bit on the high side...

      Unless you're a big name author, you'll be lucky to get 10% from a traditional publisher

  32. Non-DRMed ebooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While there are some who won't pay for any e-books, many more people would buy ebooks if they could get them in a non-DRMed format. Especially if they weren't so overprices. An ebook shouldn't cost more than $2.00. Why? Because an e-book costs almost nothing to produce. Since most writing today is done on computers, the books are already in a computer readable format. There are no printing costs, no shipping costs, and there doesn't need to be a middleman. Selling e-books directly over the internet is easily possible.

    Yes, the author should be paid for his/her work. But what we have now is the publishers and middlemen making most of the profits. Also, publishers and the Authors Guild are getting far too greedy!

  33. Whinging is free by akayani · · Score: 1

    "I'm not giving anything away for free." "But I expect to be able to do research on the net for free."

    So 'you' are lucky to get 20c royalty on books or music but you want $2 on the net. And you aren't even risking the product being remained. And the distributors are risking almost nothing.

    If the world was fair a music track on the net would cost X2 the royalty and a book the same. Instead it's either free or way over priced.

    Go figure!

  34. free Free no-cost by dna_(c)(tm)(r) · · Score: 1

    At least for some it is free.

    1. Re:free Free no-cost by tjstork · · Score: 1

      At least for some it is free [louvre.fr].

      Sometimes you have to smell the oil and see the painting in person, especially when you realize that often times artists worked in three dimensions with their paint and not just two.

      --
      This is my sig.
  35. Open Formats with Accountability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Rather than use all this DRM crap, couldn't we just use open formats - PDF or similar and place the purchaser's personal information inside the files?

    I know that I'd be much more careful with a purchased file if I knew it had my name, phone, address, and credit card information attached.

    Obviously, someone will come up with a method to remove that data, but many won't bother and will live with the consequences after sharing.

  36. But Heaven Help You if by turkeyfish · · Score: 1

    A Kindle puts one in the position of being of just plain out of luck if the author chooses to limit the ability of Amazon to act as an authorized seller at some future point in time, or if you manage to mangle or loose your DMR certificates, or if your Kindle breaks and you have to reinstall (read repurchase) all your ebooks, of if all your old ebooks are no longer Kindle 2.0 compatible, because then you no longer have legal access to your prior purchases.

    As the Apple approach shows, this kind of system works economically only if multiple corporations (content providers/content distributors) and the "government" collude sufficiently to lock in users and if they can keep the price of the collusion to potential buyers just low enough to keep wanton piracy and open standards at an acceptably low level (of course for some any piracy or open standards at all is unreasonable).

    The real threat to Kindle will come when an enterprising young entrepeneur makes a Kindle-llike device that permits artists/writers to register their works by which the artists themselves keep the lion's share of the cost of a download say, 95%, and accept the royalties directly rather than through the Amazon middleman.

    Of course, first she will have to find venture capital in order to hire a good enough lawyer to get her product successfully embedded in the marketplace and 1,000,000 friends in her political district to keep her "representatives" from accepting "contributions" from corporations like Amazon to make sale of such a "revolutionary" device illegal or somehow "sufficiently unsafe as to require regulation" lest it fall into the wrong hands and upset domestic tranquility (ie existing corporate profits).

    As Darwin in a humorous frame of mind once noted "Its everyone for themselves. Its a jungle out there."

  37. french "model" of copyright by Anne+Honime · · Score: 1

    Being french (with a llm), I would like to point that the system the WTO is forcefeeding the world through the TRIPS agreement is not the system currently used in France (we call our system "droit d'auteur", and it's not even close to copyright). As a matter of fact, TRIPS is more a mixed bag of the harshest possible solutions of both copyright laws and "droit d'auteur". It takes the overlong protection time of droit d'auteur, for instance, but seeks to allow this right to be granted fully to a copyright holder who may not be the real author, whereas under french law an author cannot strip himself of all his rights, willfully or not.

    This insidious action is a spinning trick for your politicians to tell you "the french had us do this", and our politicians telling us "ah, but the world sided with the US and forced us do this or that".

    Mostly, we're all in the same boat where a handful of shody lobbyists from the MAFIAA are having their way by twisting laws at a level where we, citizens, have no elected representation.

    Just my opinion, but you might consider it.

  38. Really Tim? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "open source or die" is a bad slant and I don't think it really applies to the Kindle. His business and Amazon are infinitely different. The Kindle doesn't need to be totally open at all.

  39. Kindle's major engineering problem... by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

    is the extra "zero" in the price tag. Seriously, this thing costs as much as a netbook. A year or two down the road and netbook tablets appear. At that point the Kindle has to be *significantly* cheaper or go extinct. The writing's already on that particular wall.

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
  40. First sale doctrine? by Rastl · · Score: 1

    I realize this is US-centric but I take full advantage of the first sale doctrine by purchasing used books. I know the author doesn't see a dime of those sales but if I have the choice between paying $15 for a book or paying $5 I'm going to wait a bit and buy the less expensive one. I'll probably check the book out of the library first to make sure I want to own it.

    Until I can get used copies of books on the Kindle for under $5 then there's no way in heck I'm buying one. And at this point in time there's no financial benefit to me for buying a Kindle and then buying the books since the price is almost the same as buying a paper copy.

    So no matter what format the files are in they're useless to me. I'd prefer an open standard/no DRM but that's not going to happen for a while. With a paper copy you completely transfer ownership when you sell it but there's nothing to make you delete and electronic copy if you sell it to someone else. So an open format book is going to hit the torrents within hours of release if it's a popular book/series/author. I'm not sure how many books are on those sites since I don't torrent so someone else with more experience will have to report on that one.

    1. Re:First sale doctrine? by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      There are PLENTY of books on torrent web sites.

      Absolutely, any format that allows sharing or exchange will result in everything being posted almost immediately. First person to buy a copy will pay, the rest do not have to. The magic of the Internet.

      Unfortunately, not many e-book publishers will have a favorable view of this "magic".

  41. You have the answer right there by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    Does the publishing industry make money when you buy or sell used books? Could they potentially make more if they only sold books in a non-transferable digital-only format?

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  42. Issue is NOT rights management! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I suggest that the bulk of this conversation has gone wrong .. rights management. The question was "will the Kindle, or any eBook/eReader survive" in the market place, not "is protected content good or bad".

    My opinion is NO, the Kindle and similar products will not survive. Not until someone comes to the market with a business plan that involves primarily marketing the reader, not marketing protected content.

    I've owned ebooks for the last 11 years, ever since the original "Rocket ebook" came out and I've owned or tried about 10 other models in that time. Currently I still own two Rocket ebooks under the eBookWise name. Despite the difficulty of getting "open" content into it, I rely on them heavily for manuals, reference material, downloaded (open) content such as news and research papers as well as about 10,000 works of fiction ........ most from the Gutenberg project but a couple hundred purchases.

    In my opinion no one has ever come to the market place trying to make a successful product out of a reader itself. Every one of them says (effectively) "lets make this device, sell it for top dollar to cover our costs and development then get richer than Gates by licensing protected content for a few cents per copy and selling it for 10x or 20x our cost."

    This isn't an economic purchase for the users. It's cheaper to buy hard copy and only gadget freaks buy the reader. If you rely on the reader, you discover that it's fragile enough that it fails drastically around once a year, in my experience anyway, and it's not practical to repair it after the initial warrantee requiring re-purchase. The TCO is astronomical.

    I suggest the device must become a commodity, sold primarily for use with "open" content with a price less than $100 and supporting just about every document standard in common use with simple "plug and go" or bluetooth connectivity.. like a flash drive. Then the "paperless office" becomes possible, the devices become universal and the sale of protected content can be a profitable secondary market.

    Of course they will still have to resolve the rights management issue.

    I don't believe that the sale of protected content will ever be a large, profitable market unless the TCO is less than buying and owning the hard copy.

    Just my opinion.

  43. There is no pretending. by tjstork · · Score: 1

    The real question is, while its useful to pretend that "content" is property so long as the results are in the public good, isn't it a problem if we forget we are pretending?

    There is no pretending, that's the point. Bits and bytes are undeniably real. Content is real, the embodiment of human thought.

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:There is no pretending. by civilizedINTENSITY · · Score: 1

      They really do exist. Of course they do. To suggest my point of view denies that they exist is a straw man fallacy. But ideas also exist, yet they aren't granted the status of "we'll treat it though were property for a period of time." Existence is obvious enough but that doesn't mean they belong to someone like property belongs to someone. Its not the bit and bytes, though, so much as the pattern that they form. Information can be encoded many many ways, even via analog :-) The question is this: in the social experiment in which we extend to information temporarily the rights inherent to property (in order to promote discovery) do we do it with open eyes? Mindful of the fact that its not an inherent right, that such can't really be owned as property is owned?

    2. Re:There is no pretending. by tjstork · · Score: 1

      They really do exist. Of course they do. To suggest my point of view denies that they exist is a straw man fallacy

      You used that word "real", so I took it that you meant to imply a state of existence. Something that is real exists, and something is not real, does not.

      Mindful of the fact that its not an inherent right, that such can't really be owned as property is owned?

      But I would argue that property is an inherent right. If you have a look at any activity people play, they invent rules for it, and those rules more often than not imply ownership. Either some third party owns something, or the people own something, and they devise rules as to how to transfer that ownership.

      In any case, its getting pretty hard to argue
      -against- IP being real property, when you have people with their personal pages, personal accounts, personal friends, personal links, personal characters, personal games... All of that is creating property. In a sense, social sights aren't even about people at all as much as they are a way to give people property online.

      --
      This is my sig.
    3. Re:There is no pretending. by civilizedINTENSITY · · Score: 1

      Ideas really exist, but ideas aren't material. Copying an idea isn't categorically the same thing as taking a material object. Borrowing a book from a library and hand copying it before you return doesn't deprives the other patrons of use.

      Agreed that property is a right. Totally agreed that property is a right. You can own a house, or land, or a car, or any number of other things. But you can't own ideas. You can't own patterns. You can't even own the songs or books you write. We use copyright, for instance, to issue sole distribution rights for a limited time. If this were a house you built on your own land, no one would talk about "distribution", or "limited time". If the content actually were property, it would be yours, forever. To deprive you of it would be theft or conversion. Instead, after the limited time it goes into the public domain, were it actually belongs, and belonged to begin with. This temporary time is not the natural state of things, but a legal fiction (perhaps) useful to society. The public domain is the natural state of things for content. And if it turns out not to be useful, then the temporary time can be legislated away as simply as it was introduced.

      My real point is that today people seem to forget, or perhaps never learned, this distinction. Much effort has gone into making it seem that copyright is about property (its not), and that its a right (its not). Thats what I'm getting at.

    4. Re:There is no pretending. by civilizedINTENSITY · · Score: 1

      Oh, and by the way, who gets the copyright to your facebook content? Your yahoo email content? Social site content copyright is part of the use agreement, by the way, so its worth checking those out occasionally. Hint: it doesn't give the creators sole distribution rights.

      But despite this fact, I'd have to take issue. If you replaced "property", with "content", then we'd probably agree. It is content, content is real, it does exist, it just isn't really property. Thats all.

    5. Re:There is no pretending. by tjstork · · Score: 1

      Oh, and by the way, who gets the copyright to your facebook content? Your yahoo email content? Social site content copyright is part of the use agreement, by the way, so its worth checking those out occasionally. Hint: it doesn't give the creators sole distribution rights.

      No, no social site does.... and I think they get a weird pass. On one hand, they hold themselves as not liable for the content that they host. If I post something evil, then, that site is off the hook for the liability of it by statute. On the other hand, I can't just go and delete whatever it is I wrote. I would think that, if my posts were my property, I should be able to:

      a) retrieve all of them.
      b) delete them.
      c) alter them at any time.

      You can't do that. There's sort of an obsession with preserving the continuity of a thread in a discussion that trumps a sense of property rights.

      --
      This is my sig.
    6. Re:There is no pretending. by civilizedINTENSITY · · Score: 1

      "you grant us a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, worldwide license to use any IP content that you post on or in connection with Facebook"