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How Apple's App Review Is Sabotaging the iPhone

snydeq writes to recommend Peter Wayner's inside look at the frustration iPhone developers face from Apple when attempting to distribute their apps through the iPhone App Store. Wayner's long piece is an extended analogy comparing Apple to the worst of Soviet-era bureaucracy. "Determined simply to dump an HTML version of his book into UIWebView and offer two versions through the App Store, Wayner endures four months of inexplicable silences, mixed messages, and almost whimsical rejections from Apple — the kind of frustration and uncertainty Wayner believes is fast transforming Apple's regulated marketplace into a hotbed of bottom-feeding mediocrity. 'Developers are afraid to risk serious development time on the platform as long as anonymous gatekeepers are able to delay projects by weeks and months with some seemingly random flick of a finger,' Wayner writes of his experience. 'It's one thing to delay a homebrew project like mine, but it's another thing to shut down a team of developers burning real cash. Apple should be worried when real programmers shrug off the rejections by saying, "It's just a hobby."'"

509 comments

  1. And yet... by jcr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Apple's managed to get more than fifty thousand apps through the process and onto the store. Nobody's going to write stories about the ones that went smoothly.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    1. Re:And yet... by thisnamestoolong · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, but how many of those apps are good? I don't personally have an iPhone but from what I have seen it seems like most iPhone apps are half-baked juvenile distractions, rather than anything seriously useful. It seems logical to me that the overall quality of iPhone apps could be improved tremendously if devs could actually devote time and resources to apps without fear of arbitrary rejection.

      --
      To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
    2. Re:And yet... by syousef · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Apple's managed to get more than fifty thousand apps through the process and onto the store. Nobody's going to write stories about the ones that went smoothly.

      Apple is stifling innovation and you think it's fine so long as they've let through 50,000 tetris clones (okay an exaggeration, but it makes my point). Gotta love it. Think different indeed. Think with our marketing blinkers on. To top it off I bet I get modded troll by Apple zealots.

      This is EXACTLY why we need OPEN architectures. No developer should have to go through putting together an application only to have it rejected arbitrarily. The same people who support DRM and copyright supposedly to compensate the creator are happy to deny a developer ANY money for their effort at their whim. Hypocrites!

      Well I won't be buying an iPhone no matter how "cool" they look or what nifty features they have let alone gambling my time and effort developing for one in the hope that some junior Apple cronie rubber stamps it.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    3. Re:And yet... by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Apple's managed to get more than fifty thousand apps through the process and onto the store. Nobody's going to write stories about the ones that went smoothly.

      And everyone one of those apps has had a message from the author in the description saying "Version 2.0 coming ($today-30days). It should solve the connectivity issues". The review process may have gotten them through, but I've not seen fast upgrades for anything other than big companies that can pay to be heard.

    4. Re:And yet... by jcr · · Score: 0

      Apple is stifling innovation

      Are you for real? Do you have any idea of what it was like to develop mobile apps before Cocoa Touch was available?

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    5. Re:And yet... by girlintraining · · Score: 0

      Apple's managed to get more than fifty thousand apps through the process and onto the store. Nobody's going to write stories about the ones that went smoothly.

      Welcome to IT, where we don't care how often you get it right, because your job is to fix it when it goes wrong.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    6. Re:And yet... by PeanutButterBreath · · Score: 1

      You missed the point. Its a quality argument, not a quantity argument.

    7. Re:And yet... by alain94040 · · Score: 1

      This is EXACTLY why we need OPEN architectures.

      Sure, but on the other hand, you have to agree that Apple did a good job of keeping viruses and spamware off their platform. There is indeed a real human being(*) who tests all the apps and makes sure that the app does what its description claims...

      If you make a completely open app store, make sure you protect your users against malicious experience. You don't want your end-users to be upset.

      (*) sometimes it does feel like there is indeed one human being doing all the testing :-)

    8. Re:And yet... by mgblst · · Score: 1

      There are 100s of stories of the successful app, what does it say about you that you haven't read any? I one of the 100,000 iphone developers, and I enjoy reading the good stories much more than the day. Mainly because I already now what the bad stories will say, I have lived through it.

    9. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're saying the complete line of 50,000 apps are useless then you are clearly the one trolling.

      Sour grapes.

    10. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Its a quality argument

      It's a big fat whine from a bunch of whiners. It's Apple's play pen and it's going to stay Apple's play pen. Deal with it and whine less.

      I note that in the now substantial history of Apple's App Store system there have been no reports of widespread exploits or other public relations nightmares. Congratulations Apple; you've created a paradigm that doesn't suck as bad as Microsoft.

    11. Re:And yet... by lymond01 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't personally have an iPhone but from what I have seen it seems like most iPhone apps are half-baked juvenile distractions, rather than anything seriously useful.

      I have the same problem with using NetJets, that personal jet service Roger Federer uses. I'm sure it's just fraught with late departures and stuck up pilots. One is likely always arriving at their destination late or worse, early, and having to stand around with the populous waiting for the limousine.

      How many iPhone app reviewers are there? How long does it take to fully test an application so you don't get sued for allowing something that:

      1) Bricks the phone
      2) Has child porn shoved inside it
      3) Is free, barely does what the description says it will do, and yet you need to waste your time deciding if it's just not broken enough to put up there

      If there are one hundred app reviewers, there are too few.

    12. Re:And yet... by MrMista_B · · Score: 0, Troll

      And yet you provide not a single piece of proof or evidence to support your rant.

      Hm.

    13. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Do you have any idea of what it was like to develop mobile apps before Cocoa Touch was available?

      Do you? A fanboi of your magnitude wouldn't have touch a non-apple toolchain. Ergo, you have no idea what the competition is doing.

    14. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well I do have an iPhone, and there are a lot of good apps there. Certainly more good stuff than any other phone platform.

      As to the proportion that is good... if Apple didn't filter out various of the worst UI disasters as they do, the proportion of crap would be higher.

      As to the summary author... he dumped his book into a webview, and then Apple wouldn't publish it. Case in point. They've published plenty of ebooks with good UIs.

    15. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually they did publish it. Then they took 2+ weeks to publish the dozen or so new lines of code that fixed bugs.

      At the same time they rejected a very similar version. The only difference was some extra HTML. The Cocoa code was equivalent.

      So it was fairly random.

    16. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 4, Informative

      Are you for real? Do you have any idea of what it was like to develop mobile apps before Cocoa Touch was available?

      -jcr

      That's not the point. It didn't take me long to write the software. It took me weeks to get rejections and the rejection reasons were nonsensical. One dinged me for using open source software because it was a "framework".

    17. Re:And yet... by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Its kind of like using CitySearch.com for restaurent reviews. Pulling random numbers out of my ass, you'll get 5 out of 10 people who write a review about a bad experience to 'stick it to them' and 1 out of 20 people who write a good review just because they read all the bad ones and want to try and balance it out.

      Personally, I think if that is what sabotaging your own device looks like, I need to figure out how to sabotage my own companies products so we get those sort of numbers.

      I'd love to have Apples problems. So would just about any one else with half a clue, full clue not required for this one.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    18. Re:And yet... by Pigmeister · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I totally agree. There are numerous applications getting poor reviews when the app developer has an update that's been waiting weeks or months to be released by Apple. (People don't read the descriptions.) In many cases I have personally seen app store app comments that existed weeks ago while I await an update for apps I own. In other cases I have been told this via email after writing the author. Exactly what does Apple do to test or qualify updates? AT&T released a GPS navigator app that crashes and puts my iPhone 3G into burner mode yet and doesn't even have the ability to retrieve a destination address from the iPhone address book. If there was ever a reason NOT to release an app - this is it. Missing the most basic of Apple functionality. I guess AT&T gets its own play book. (Of course Apple would never release a product without cut/copy/paste now would it?) Apple has become the evil empire. I stopped hating Microsoft years ago. My contempt is now split between AT&T and Apple (OK... I hate United Airlines, too).

    19. Re:And yet... by ArundelCastle · · Score: 1

      Apple's managed to get more than fifty thousand apps through the process and onto the store. Nobody's going to write stories about the ones that went smoothly.

      Nor will they write stories that fully 28% of those apps are in fact flashlights. (Or at least, that's their most practical use.)

    20. Re:And yet... by wizzat · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How many of them are good? Well, quite honestly alot more are good than if there was no review process at all. If there wasn't a review process, we'd see apps that ignored or borked your settings, leaked memory like a sieve, chewed through your battery life out of ignorance, or hell - maybe we'd simply be looking at a deluge of carbon copy flashlight and porn apps, making the app store effectively useless. Hell, in my opinion (and I do have an iphone) the app store already has *too many* apps, and the quality on the ones there aren't quite high enough for my liking.

      I suppose you could think of it this way: you're looking for a needle (good app that does what you want) and you can either search in the pin cushion full of mostly needles and a bit of straw or you can search through the whole fricking hay stack yourself. I'll take the pin cushion, thank-you-very-much.

      Also, I'm not sure that you're really qualified to say anything about the relative quality of the app store. You don't, afterall, actually have an iphone.

    21. Re:And yet... by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 1

      Arguments for or against a certain thing require nothing more than an opinion and a reasoning behind it.

      Evidence helps, but does not suddenly validate or invalidate a position.

      For example, child porn is wrong, and its creators must be stopped because they harm the children involved.

      Most people can think about that statement, and come to a valid conclusion for or against the position without requiring any bit of evidence supplied in the argument.

      And yet, you gave no reason for requiring further proof in this case, though the poster gave his own witness testimony (albeit exaggerated, as he admitted) to the fact.

      Hm.

      --
      Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
    22. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      From the sound of it he's tried getting the app passed numerous times despite knowing that what he's doing is not allowed. It got through one time, when he was using subterfuge to trick the review team. The guy is a stubborn ass. All he needs to do is follow the guidelines for apps.

      We've got 5 apps published. Two point revisions have been rejected, quite rightly, because the reviewers caught bugs. We fixed the bugs and they get accepted.

      He's clearly the architect of his own downfall.

    23. Re:And yet... by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      Exactly which assertions did he make that you're expecting evidence to support?

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    24. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No developer should have to go through putting together an application only to have it rejected arbitrarily.

      I'm glad that civil engineers aren't victims of such autocratic whims. If your design sucks, you should have *at least* five other people tell you so, and why.

    25. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 5, Informative

      From the sound of it he's tried getting the app passed numerous times despite knowing that what he's doing is not allowed.

      Really? What am I doing that's not allowed? I pop up a UIWebView and stick in some HTML. That's it. Yet I got some rejection letters telling me that I was either accessing a private API (I wasn't) or somehow interpreting code. (I wasn't.) The UIWebView was doing that and it is perfectly okay for Apple's frameworks to interpret things.

      Here's what the rejection note said:

      No interpreted code may be downloaded or used in an Application except for code that is interpreted and run by Apple's Documented APIs and built-in interpreter(s)."

      Well, everything I do is pumped into the UIWebView which is well documented.

      Furthermore, how can Apple really make any deep decisions like this? I don't upload code. They don't compile it. They look at raw binary code.

    26. Re:And yet... by bnenning · · Score: 1

      If you'd spent more time writing the application, and less time submitting inferior crap

      Yeah, what an idiot he is for trying to use existing working code rather than reinventing the wheel. Apple is blatantly disregarding their own rules with the PhoneGap rejections. It may be their right to act in such a capricious manner; it's also our right to call them on it.

      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
    27. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 1

      This is a solid point. Apple is hurting the development process by not doing more to encourage projects like PhoneGap. The open source dev process is excellent for eliminating many of the common bugs and even some of the really tricky bugs. I'm still at a loss for trying to understand why they don't do more to encourage them.

    28. Re:And yet... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 3, Informative

      Are you for real? Do you have any idea of what it was like to develop mobile apps before Cocoa Touch was available?

      Elaborate, please. I didn't see any difficulties developing apps for Windows Mobile in VS, for example.

    29. Re:And yet... by hedwards · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If the iPhone were properly designed it shouldn't be possible to brick via just a software installation. Childporn is a straw man argument, they've been banning things which could be used to access content that doesn't go with Apple's wholesome image whether or not that was the purpose of the app. As for the description being accurate, there are ways that they could handle that without reviewing it formally chances are the reviewers have different standards than what an individual has..

    30. Re:And yet... by d235j · · Score: 1

      Apple has tools like otool and nm which can detect what's going on. class-dump can output headers if it's given an Obj-C binary. I'm not sure what exactly happened, but maybe you attempted to dynamically link the PhoneGap framework instead of statically incorporating it into the main application binary. Such dynamic linking is simply not allowed. However, I could be wrong.

    31. Re:And yet... by hedwards · · Score: 1

      And what about developers that are "duplicating" features that Apple provides? Or that access the web and could be theoretically used for accessing adult content? Sure in this case you might be right, but Apple's hardly above setting up an abusive system.

    32. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Don't forget the "mirror" applications that do even less. Yet they've got a high click through rate.

      http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/07/17/top-iphone-app-developer-was-losing-out-on-2000-a-day-because-of-sloppy-coding/

    33. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1, Interesting

      He's an idiot for using a system he knows Apple don't allow. It would only be capricious of Apple if they have no reason for rejecting PhoneGap apps. Clearly they DO have reasons.

      Here's some possible reasons.
      http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/why_is_apple_rejecting_phonegap-built_iphone_apps.php

      But really it doesn't matter what the reasons are. To keep submitting an app that uses a framework you know isn't allowed is just dumb.

    34. Re:And yet... by jcr · · Score: 0, Troll

      Aw, what's wrong? Did someone can you for your attitude and then replace you with an outsource vendor?

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    35. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There is nothing abusive about setting standards for the apps they accept. When you agree to the contract to become an iPhone developer, you know they have standards you need to adhere to. Most of us get published without problem. This guy ignores the reasons stated for rejection, tries to hide his tracks, and resubmit the app without remedying the problems. No wonder he gets rejected again and again. This is the behaviour of a loon banging his head against a wall.

    36. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      :most iPhone OWNERS are half-baked juvenile's

      Fixed that for ya!

      (-:

    37. Re:And yet... by jcr · · Score: 1

      That's not the point.

      My point is that the claim that Apple is stifling innovation is absurd on its face.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    38. Re:And yet... by onefriedrice · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Furthermore, how can Apple really make any deep decisions like this? I don't upload code. They don't compile it. They look at raw binary code.

      Do you not think it is trivial to tell which system and library calls your binary app is making? I don't know anything about which iPhone API's are allowed or disallowed, but let me assure you that it is quite simple to know exactly which calls a binary executable is making. Having the source code wouldn't make that any easier.

      --
      This author takes full ownership and responsibility for the unpopular opinions outlined above.
    39. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 4, Informative

      Really? What am I doing that's not allowed?

      Given that you are already ignoring the reasons stated in your rejections from Apple reviewers who have seen your app, it's a bit pointless me reiterating.

      But, in your linked whine, you admit to using PhoneGap, and you admit to knowing Apple don't allow it. And you admit to trying to hide your tracks. If I were Apple I'd kick you out of the program for wasting their time.

      Furthermore, how can Apple really make any deep decisions like this? I don't upload code. They don't compile it. They look at raw binary code.

      They obviously have scripts that create and check class dumps and search for tell tale strings.

    40. Re:And yet... by LazManico · · Score: 1

      No developer should have to go through putting together an application only to have it rejected arbitrarily.

      Not an Apple zealot here... but from what I hear it's not arbitrary rejection. The biggest reason I hear people get rejected for is UI.

      Apple is anal about conformity... and rightfully so. If you have all these different applications reusing and twisting similar UI's into different work flows... the iPhone becomes confusing. Note... its not the application that gets branded as confusing, but the iPhone itself. Now, how would that impact sales?

      iPhone developers care about their individual apps, their own sandbox. They could care less about matching workflow of the app next door. Apple has to care about the platform as a whole.

      Btw... just released my first iPhone app this past weekend ("Wordsy"). Took only 7 days to get approved by Apple.

    41. Re:And yet... by jcr · · Score: 0, Troll

      Apple is hurting the development process by not doing more to encourage projects like PhoneGap.

      Well, I just went and looked up PhoneGap, and I now understand why your app was rejected. The mistake wasn't in rejecting your app, it was in approving any other apps that used PhoneGap in the first place.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    42. Re:And yet... by master5o1 · · Score: 1

      If you can make something easily, quickly and pretty much pointless to any user and have people pay for it then you have won.

      --
      signature is pants
    43. Re:And yet... by jcr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, but how many of those apps are good?

      What does that have to do with the discussion at hand? Apple doesn't reject apps because they're stupid, they reject them if they fail to comply with the terms stated in the developer program agreement.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    44. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 1

      I've heard the number 65,000 more recently and it's probably grown since then.

      While I don't want to take anything away from the iPhone store or the developers who have the patience to submit their apps to the process, I want to point out that PalmGear.com claims 32,000+ apps for the old Palm platform. That's just one company. If you add in all of the Palm open source applications and what not, I wouldn't be surprised if there are 50,000+. We'll never know because there's not one bottleneck.

      And let's not forget Microsoft's PocketPC and Nokia's Symbian. Each of these platforms let users download apps from websites or even swap them with friends.

      I think it's entirely possible that each of these three platforms might claim 1, 1.5 or even 2 billion downloads a piece if there was some central tabulating center. But we'll never know.

    45. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not canned, but outsourced (not offshored, thankfully, last thing I want is for foreigner scum to take another American job). I happily train my replacements, we discuss things like indo weed and the best places to pick up hookers. Good for those of us who have no obligations and can party on the beach (and troll Slashdot) whilst collecting unemployment like nigger mammies all day before we land our next job.

      But that's neither here nor there. Indians stink like a motherfucker, and no act of nature or god will change that!

      And you, jcr, are an unapologetic MacFag(tm).

    46. Re:And yet... by jcr · · Score: 1

      last thing I want is for foreigner scum to take another American job

      Last thing any employer wants is the liability hazard of employing people like you.

      You don't have to be this way, you know. A good shrink could help. A KKK robe is a very poor substitute for actually getting your act together and being able to interact with decent people.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    47. Re:And yet... by MeNeXT · · Score: 0, Troll

      There is a saying that is based on the word assume.

      There is no logic to Apples actions. They are acting as if they are back in the 1980's. That almost sent them into bankruptcy but it also made them the second rate player that they are today trying to catch up to Windows.

      As OS X does NOT need Apple to say which apps are OK so should the iPhone NOT need Apple. This is about control and greed and it WILL bite Apple in the ASS.

      Hey Apple! Look at the great success you have by incorporating FreeBSD into your product. Cooperate and encourage the NEW MAC community and see how fast you will grow. Fight and alienate your users and developers and see how fast you crash. Take it from someone who has seen you at your best and at your worst. Sometimes you shine and other times your stench is unbearable......

      --
      DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
    48. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I find it interesting how fanboys like JCR get so emotional about apple and its products. They seem to think Apple can do no wrong and if they do,
      they are right anyway.

      I wonder does he like coming across as a complete tosser?

    49. Re:And yet... by jcr · · Score: 1

      The biggest reason I hear people get rejected for is UI.

      From what I hear, the #1 reason for rejection is that a project doesn't build. Most of those rejections are kicked back by an automated process, though.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    50. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 1

      They obviously have scripts that create and check class dumps and search for tell tale strings.

      Tell-tale strings are a pretty bad way to search for malicious or dangerous applications. It's fighting the last war.

      I'm curious. Why do you say that Apple doesn't allow PhoneGap? Is it spelled out in any rule?

      I've read the PhoneGap code. I've read the rules. As far as I can tell, PhoneGap doesn't violate any of them. In fact, it pretty much encourages the developer to write HTML which is-- as Apple insists-- only "interpreted and run by Apple's Documented APIs and built-in interpreter(s)."

      I've always assumed that the number of PhoneGap applications accepted by the program support my reading. I've written Apple numerous times. I've tried to discuss it with their engineers. No one will say, "PhoneGap is forbidden."

      So how do you know that it is?

    51. Re:And yet... by generica1 · · Score: 1

      It's curious to me that so far as I am reading this three people have responded telling you exactly what you did that is not allowed and you haven't addressed their replies yet. Hmmm. Are they wrong?

      --
      JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP IRRIGATE
    52. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The real issue is much deeper. You can tell whether all the calls are to legit library entry points, but you can't tell if the calls are somehow malicious You're right. The binary will tell you a few things, but it won't tell you everything. I contend that you can't make firm decisions about that without reading the source.

    53. Re:And yet... by PoopMonkey · · Score: 1

      I guess apple wants to leave the leaking memory like a sieve to their apps only. Safari is a very good example of that. Personally, I don't have any problem with Apple putting restrictions on what can go in their store. It's their store, after all. What I do have a problem with is that short of jailbreaking that the iTunes store is the only way you can get apps on it.

    54. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 1

      It's possible that Apple has encouraged a great deal of innovation but stifled a great deal more. Imagine that there are 100,000 great apps out there. If they publish, 50k then they've encouraged those. But they've also discouraged 50k.

      Given that there are so many complaints about random reviews from all sorts of developers, I think it's fair to say that many feel stifled and discouraged from innovating.

    55. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it was in approving any other apps that used PhoneGap in the first place.

      This from the guy who's telling us Apple isn't stifling innovation. I guess you can't really expect consistency from whiny apple fanbois.

    56. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 3, Informative

      Useless? Perhaps.

      But that's not what my rejection notes said. They prattled on about using a "framework" or misusing some part of the API.

      And they also told me I couldn't tell anyone I was giving my revenues to charity.

      If it was all as useless as you feel, they could have saved everyone a great deal of time by just stamping "useless" on it from the git-go. Then I wouldn't have wasted time fretting about misusing the API and they would have had one more useless App to reject once again with a passive aggressive reason.

    57. Re:And yet... by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 4, Interesting

      > If the iPhone were properly designed it shouldn't be possible to brick via just a software installation

      I'd say the exact opposite is true. Who wants a platform that is so locked down you can't screw it up hacking it? Boooorring! It's precisely because you can brick it that Pwnage tool can exist, and I'd say the platform would be FAR less interesting if that were the case.

      Wow, such an anti-technology skew. So out of place on /.

      Don't get me wrong, the whole approval thing seems like something out of the dark ages to me. But seriously, the machine shouldn't be hackable? Yikes!

      Maury

    58. Re:And yet... by tpgp · · Score: 1

      My point is that the claim that Apple is stifling innovation is absurd on its face.

      You seem to be arguing that because Apple is innovative in one way, they're incapable of stifling innovation in any other way.

      You need some basic logic lessons sonny.

      --
      My pics.
    59. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 0, Troll

      Uh, I've addressed this elsewhere.

      While BasilBrush seems to feel that it is obvious that PhoneGap is forbidden, it's not spelled out in any of the rule books. Can you point out where? Can you even explain why someone might even come to that conclusion? There's been no answer and Apple never answered any of my emails. When I speak to members of the PhoneGap team-- members who've successfully published many apps-- they tell me that they've been unable to get any worthwhile guidance from Apple.

      My reading of the rules tells me that PhoneGap should produce apps that are more compliant because they only push information through one major part of the API, the UIWebView.

      So if you can explain what's wrong with the code, I'm sure many would like to understand what's going on.

    60. Re:And yet... by plover · · Score: 1

      How many of those apps are good, you ask? Well I ask you who could do without I am rich!

      --
      John
    61. Re:And yet... by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 1

      > So if you can explain what's wrong with the code

      It's reject-able, duh.

      What, you think the proletariat gets to know why? Shut up! Eat your turnip soup!

      Maury

    62. Re:And yet... by Old97 · · Score: 1

      Why is this flamebait? He makes a perfectly valid point. There are tens of thousands of apps and we only hear about a few that have problems getting approved. That's a fact to ponder. The vast majority of applications seem to get into the store with few if any problems and what seems to be only a few run into serious roadblocks. It provides some balance to the post. If the parent is flamebait then what does that make the post? Instead of modding it down, why don't you just respond with a relevant comment? Does someone have hard evidence (not just anecdotes) that this is a serious systemic problem?

      I have an iPhone - bought a 3Gs in June - and I agree with a post below that points out the a lot of these apps are pretty poor and useless, but that's besides the point. Most apps on most platforms are pretty poor and useless. The big argument that Mac and Linux users always get from Windows aficionados is that Windows has zillions of apps and we always respond that it's quality not quantity that matters.

      --
      Very often, people confuse simple with simplistic. The nuance is lost on most. - Clement Mok
    63. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 2, Informative

      When I wrote this piece, I went out of my way to discuss the subject with many other developers. If this were simply a question of my problems, it wouldn't be worth writing. But many other developers are having similar problems with entirely different approaches. That's why I included the long list of adjectives that other developers are using. Go read their posts. Are they all simply dismissed as loons?
       

    64. Re:And yet... by Lars+T. · · Score: 1

      How many iPhone app reviewers are there? How long does it take to fully test an application so you don't get sued for allowing something that:

      1) Bricks the phone 2) Has child porn shoved inside it 3) Is free, barely does what the description says it will do, and yet you need to waste your time deciding if it's just not broken enough to put up there

      If there are one hundred app reviewers, there are too few.

      How about simply being a Trojan? Apple just let through one.
      Well, no, actually, that was the Symbian guys.

      he Symbian Foundation plans to revise its procedures for testing and signing software after digitally signing a trojan for its Symbian mobile phone operating system by mistake.

      Will this kill Symbian, or don't they have to fear there will be many people trying to sign software for it?

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    65. Re:And yet... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They could be stifling innovation and promoting innovation at the same time. And indeed, this is what they're doing -- at the same time as they innovate with interesting things like, say, GrandCentral, they also discourage innovation in many ways, like blocking competing phones from synchronizing with iTunes.

      Requiring approval for the App Store could be called many things, but it's not innovative, nor does it promote innovation.

      It brings to mind Sony, who managed to produce a DVD DRM scheme which produced discs designed to be playable in DVD players, but not computers -- and it managed to not be playable in many of Sony's own DVD players.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    66. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 4, Informative

      Tell-tale strings are a pretty bad way to search for malicious or dangerous applications. It's fighting the last war.

      It's be bad if it was the only thing they do. But as an automated procedure it makes perfect sense as one of the many things they check. It caught you out for a start.

      I'm curious. Why do you say that Apple doesn't allow PhoneGap? Is it spelled out in any rule?

      It's spelled out in the rejection you and others have had. You're not allowed to use third party APIs. Apple may have any number of reasons, but that fact that it enables you to change your application code remotely without going through the approvals process is an obvious reason for rejection.

    67. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about simply being a Trojan? Apple just let through one.

      I prefer Durex, because the goal is not to let anything through.

    68. Re:And yet... by jcr · · Score: 0, Troll

      It's possible that Apple has encouraged a great deal of innovation but stifled a great deal more.

      Possible? Sure. Know any innovators who could attest to that? You're not one yourself.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    69. Re:And yet... by jcr · · Score: 1

      This from the guy who's telling us Apple isn't stifling innovation.

      Apple has those rules about interpreting code for a reason. You don't think platform stability promotes innovation?

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    70. Re:And yet... by icebike · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > So it was fairly random.

      Keep screaming. This issue has too get solved. Its entirely out of hand, and completely broken. I can't imagine any other platform where the platform author can get away with this much restriction and control.

      Safari has no age restrictions. Everybody else's app that embeds web does.

      It needs fixing. Apple's feet need to be held to the fire. The only pressure they understand is public embarrassment in the mainstream press.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    71. Re:And yet... by jcr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Tell-tale strings are a pretty bad way to search for malicious or dangerous applications.

      I'm curious: do you actually expect to get your app approved by arguing about it on /.?

      Write your app with the native API.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    72. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      At last count 50,000 applications have been approved. Multiply that by the number of versions of those apps. The number of people you see whinging on the web about rejections represents a fraction of a percent of the iPhone developer community. Certainly in that number of app reviews, Apple does make mistakes. But your story is one of you being told once what was wrong, and just continuing to resubmit without the problem being fixed.

    73. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Not a single version of the Apps I submitted had the ability to change themselves or allow me to change them remotely. None. Nada.

      If they really are doing more than checking for forbidden strings, they would be able to see that quickly by skimming the HTML. It's very boring. Plus, it's easier to read. It's not in binary like many apps.

      I don't see how an "external framework"-- the term they used-- has anything to do with this. The rejection note said that I was to make sure that everything was to be "interpreted and run by Apple's Published APIs and built-in interpreter(s)". It's always been that way from the start. It doesn't matter who writes the code.

      The only way I can interpret (hah!) what you're saying is to conclude that App development is meant to be like elementary school. You're not supposed to work with others. You're not allowed to use well-tested open source code. You're supposed to write your own code. Why is this wrong? Why is working with others going to give me the magical ability to change how my app works remotely?

      Ultimately, it doesn't really matter why Apple rejected my application because many others come away with exactly the same experience even if they don't use PhoneGap: it's all pretty much random. Sometimes you get a cogent rejection note. Sometimes you don't. Sometimes they're fair. Sometimes they're not. It's all a coin flip which is the main point of my piece. It's not about PhoneGap. It's about the randomness and the brick wall and the lack of communication and the absolute power etc.

       

    74. Re:And yet... by jcr · · Score: 0, Troll

      You seem to be arguing

      Try arguing with what I say, not your own caricature of my statements.

      You need some basic logic lessons sonny.

      I had no trouble spotting your fallacy.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    75. Re:And yet... by jcr · · Score: 0, Redundant

      They seem to think Apple can do no wrong

      I've never said anything of the kind. When Apple does something wrong, I say so. This is not such a case.

      I wonder does he like coming across as a complete tosser?

      I wonder what it would be like to care what you think?

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    76. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 3, Informative

      No. Of course not. I've been around the world enough to realize that you don't write what I wrote without expecting the immune system to dispense as many white blood cells as it can muster.

      If you read TFA, you'll see toward the end that I'm heading toward pure webapps now. They've got their own issues, but they're cross platform and there's no gatekeeper.

    77. Re:And yet... by jcr · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Why is this flamebait? He makes a perfectly valid point.

      Thank you. Sometimes, the random distribution of mod points just goes that way.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    78. Re:And yet... by SoupIsGoodFood_42 · · Score: 1

      I find the quality so bad that I hardly ever browse for apps with iTunes. All the apps I have brought have been because I read about it in a blog or review. I'm not interested in collecting games, pseudo-productivity apps (apps that look like they will make you more productive but just give you an excuse to play with your toy), or collecting reference apps for every subject that interests me. I got over that when I had a Palm Vx since it was the first PDA that I actually found useful, and therefore, the novelty of having all sorts of neat apps wore off.

      Of course, I still have some games that I couldn't resist -- Deep Green, Solebon, and Edge.

    79. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 1

      The number of people you see whinging on the web about rejections represents a fraction of a percent of the iPhone developer community. Certainly in that number of app reviews, Apple does make mistakes. But your story is one of you being told once what was wrong, and just continuing to resubmit without the problem being fixed.

      What fraction? We'll never know but I found it pretty easy to find other complaints. Even more told me that they held their tongue to avoid offending Apple. So the fraction could be pretty large.

      As for my app, I fixed the problems that were-- as far as I can tell-- never there in the first place. It was published not once but twice. A twin version, though, was rejected. That strikes me as random and that's why I pretty much concluded that it's dangerous to invest any time, energy or especially money in the platform.

      But I'm glad you've had good luck. I hope it stays with you.

    80. Re:And yet... by tpgp · · Score: 1

      Try arguing with what I say, not your own caricature of my statements.

      The OP argued that Apple stifles innovation because it blocks applications.

      You replied that it was hard to develop mobile applications before the iPhone SDK.

      See how the logic does not follow now?

      --
      My pics.
    81. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      This guy ignores the reasons stated for rejection

      Did you read what he wrote?

      He's not ignoring anything - he's saying "tell me what the fuck you're talking about, because I'm not doing what you claim I'm doing".

      Now, if you're so fucking smart, why don't you explain how he's misusing the api? Oh, that's right - you can't - because he's not.

      Then there's the bit about "donating to charity" - why the fuck does apple care if he states it?

      If you would take your head out of Jobs' ass for a minute, you might be able to appreciate that there *are* problems.

    82. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What does that have to do with the discussion at hand? Apple doesn't reject apps because they're stupid, they reject them if they fail to comply with the terms stated in the developer program agreement.

      What does that have to do with the discussion at hand?

      The developer claims that they're rejecting them even though they comply with the terms stated in the developer program agreement.

    83. Re:And yet... by foqn1bo · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      The rejections weren't nonsensical, you just didn't agree with them. Apple's guidelines are freely available and fairly clear (even if they appear to give a a fair amount wiggle room). The fact that you attempted to re-submit a reworked version of your app, all while knowing that it still failed to comply with Apple's rules, is particularly telling. Don't like the fact that you're not supposed to link to 3rd party libraries? Do you think it's silly that they don't want the app's charity focus announced in the store? Well, too bad. There are plenty of other mobile platforms with far less traction that would love to have your half-assed product. This isn't Open Source, and you don't get to just take other people's hard work, make some little throwaway project, refuse to play by the rules, and then throw a hissy fit when things don't go your way.

    84. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I actually had a similar discussion with someone today about linked lists. For every single programming class it seems like we've had to code a linked list. Isn't there a library somewhere? What does it matter if I write the linked list or the other guy from last semester writes it if the point of the program is to use the linked list to do more advanced things like implement a scheduler.

    85. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't think platform stagnation promotes innovation?

      There, fixed that for you.

    86. Re:And yet... by bnenning · · Score: 3, Informative

      I have an iPhone app successfully published, and that doesn't change that fact that Apple's actions in this case are complete BS.

      This guy ignores the reasons stated for rejection

      The reasons are incoherent. PhoneGap is not an "external API" any more than any other piece of open source code is. Maybe you don't care as long as your apps get approved, but I find it ridiculous and harmful to the platform, speaking as both an iPhone user and developer.

      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
    87. Re:And yet... by syousef · · Score: 1

      Not an Apple zealot here...

      then

      Btw... just released my first iPhone app this past weekend

      At best I'd call that a conflict of interest. At worst, contradictory.

      Took only 7 days to get approved by Apple.

      7 days too long if you ask me. I don't know about you but I don't like having a 3rd party decide what code I can and can't release, and when.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    88. Re:And yet... by geek · · Score: 1

      Not sure what you mean by "wholesome" image. Apple has been "counter-culture" forever. Their mascot is that guy from Jeepers Creepers and all the bad comedies with lots of vulgar language and sexual content.

    89. Re:And yet... by bnenning · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It would only be capricious of Apple if they have no reason for rejecting PhoneGap apps. Clearly they DO have reasons.

      The guy in the alley wearing a tinfoil hat and babbling about aliens has reasons too; the question is whether they are legitimate. Of the potential reasons in the article, #1 and #2 appear to be factually incorrect, and #3 (not wanting cross-platform apps) is blatantly anticompetitive and hostile to both developers and users. Unfortunately it's also the most likely given their refusal to explain in any detail; it's not something they would want to publicly admit. Good thing they have plenty of fanboys to give them a pass.

      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
    90. Re:And yet... by afabbro · · Score: 1

      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.

      Odd. I would think that a disease that killed off some sizable percentage of the human race would be far more beneficial - eliminates overpopulation, environmental burden eliminated, people no longer have to live in marginal areas, etc. Downsides, too, but not as many as near-immortality's skyrocketing populations surely, eh?

      --
      Advice: on VPS providers
    91. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Who wants a platform that is so locked down you can't screw it up hacking it?

      Your point is taken. However, it's a false dichotomy.

      I have an Openmoko Neo Freerunner. It's thoroughly hackable in all respects, except (for legal reasons) the GSM and GPS firmware. Pretty much the opposite of "locked down". Yet it's not possible for me to screw it up completely; there's a backup copy of the bootloader, which cannot be overwritten by any software running on the phone. No matter how badly the OS gets broken, I can always use that backup bootloader to re-flash and start over.

      Even this doesn't qualify as "locking down", however; if I really wanted to, I could buy a "debug board" from OM which would allow me to overwrite everything, including the bootloader. The debug board, naturally, would allow me to brick the phone much more thoroughly, but at the same time it would also enable me to undo any changes I made.

      Even without the debug board, I think the Neo qualifies as both sufficiently hackable and sufficiently unbrickable for most purposes.

    92. Re:And yet... by jra · · Score: 0

      Wow. You fail to listen *very* well. I suspect clinical problems.

      Once more with feeling: they *didn't reject his app*.

      They *released* his app.

      It was his *bug fix update* they screwed around with.

      I've kept to short sentences, to avoid reading comprehension problems.

    93. Re:And yet... by jcr · · Score: 0, Troll

      Obviously, you have no idea what "stagnation" and "stability" mean. The pace of innovation in the iPhone OS, and in third-party apps that run on it is excellent, and the stability of the platform is a major contribution to that.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    94. Re:And yet... by bnenning · · Score: 1

      Massively offtopic, but killing off a large precentage of the population may or may not be good for the survivors (I very much suspect not); it is definitely bad for the victims. And curing aging doesn't imply immortality, if overpopulation would be an insurmountable problem there's always the Logan's Run scenario. The idea is to eliminate the tremendous costs in both dollars and happiness caused by the deterioration of health due to aging.

      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
    95. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or:

      4. competes with apple's offerings
      5. competes with at&t's offerings

      my impression is that the later 2 are the bigger concerns.

    96. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, Mr. Pedantic.

      It shouldn't be possible for a regular userspace program to brick the phone just like it should not be possible for a regular userspace program to overwrite your computer's BIOS with junk.

      Is that better?

    97. Re:And yet... by mgblst · · Score: 1

      You don't even know what phonegap is, do you?

      And any app, I can add some code in to change functionality by pulling in data from a website, which is perfectly legal.

    98. Re:And yet... by Baricom · · Score: 1

      The Macintosh platform is essentially completely open to application developers, yet the number of viruses and spamware that have been found on the platform in the last decade can be counted on two hands.

      Since Apple can do it with their desktop, they should be able to do it with their mobile platform - especially since they have more people working on the latter.

    99. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's sad that you would prefer a translucent oversight process instead of letting people fend for themselves. Download an app that makes your phone slower, battery life shorter, settings screwed? UNINSTALL IT!

      It shouldn't be difficult for Apple to include a daemon that pops up a simple "Hi, Your battery-life has significantly decreased since you installed HelloWorld app. Would you like to disable or uninstall this app? [Disable] [Uninstall] [Ignore]" Substitute "Would you like to restore your settings?" or applicable message.

    100. Re:And yet... by westlake · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Who wants a platform that is so locked down you can't screw it up hacking it? Boooorring

      The guy who needs to make a phone call. The guy who wants everything to just work. The guy who shops at Apple.

    101. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >> All iPhone OWNERS are half-baked juveniles

      Fixed that for you.

    102. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >>My point is that the claim that Apple is stifling innovation is absurd on its face.

      OF COURSE!! Every Apple Fanboi agrees with you!

    103. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you would take your head out of Jobs' ass for a minute, you might be able to appreciate that there *are* problems.

      Dude, seriously. Apple fanboys come here to suck Jobs's cock, and no other reason. It's no surprise he has AIDS, really, given how every Apple fanboy on Slashdot bends over for him just to prove how cool and gay they are.

    104. Re:And yet... by Bryan+Ischo · · Score: 1

      Thinking about it, it makes sense that they would disallow saying that all of your revenues were going to charity. Unless they police your bank account, they can't know whether or not you are abiding by this promise. And you could be malicious and just keep all of the revenues, duping people into believing that their money would go to charity.

      If you want to give all of the revenues to charity, go ahead and do so. But there's no reason to announce it.

    105. Re:And yet... by scrtyfrk · · Score: 1

      Squeaky wheel gets the oil! Meanwhile, we hope all the other companies putting AppStores together will take some notes and not do some of the same mistakes. Regardless of who has it, a monopoly is never good for innovation.

    106. Re:And yet... by iron-kurton · · Score: 3, Insightful

      FTA, the guy's app didn't brick the iPhone and had no offensive material. He didn't indicate directly whether it's a paid app, but he did say he made some money off it. So basically, Apple's rejection does not fit all nice and neat in your three bullet points. More to the point, if the platform was totally open, they really wouldn't have to worry about being sued.

      --
      Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine -- Robert C. Gallagher
    107. Re:And yet... by bnenning · · Score: 1

      The mistake wasn't in rejecting your app, it was in approving any other apps that used PhoneGap in the first place.

      What is your reasoning for this? The guidelines say "No interpreted code may be downloaded and used in an Application except for code that is interpreted and run by Apple's Published APIs and built-in interpreter(s)". PhoneGap apps should pass on both counts: they don't "download" any code because the HTML and Javascript is all local (assuming that online mode is disabled), and the Javascript is interpreted only by the published UIWebView API.

      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
    108. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, it's called "they don't want competition of Java on the iPhone where people can install programs they can't control."

      Let's take the example of the C64 emulator. If that doesn't work very well, people will blame the platform of the C64 emulator - not the platform of the iPhone.

      So, no, while you're correct that stability of the platform is important, it's also irrelevant to interpreted code because you are no longer talking about the same platform.

    109. Re:And yet... by prockcore · · Score: 1

      Obviously the problem is that decent apps can't get approval because Apple is backed up dealing with all the shovelware.

      I have like 6 apps on my iphone, because out of 50 thousand, 99% aren't even worth 5 seconds of my time.

      Or at least, that's 99% of the ones I'm able to find on the app store. It was not designed to manage that many apps. Everyone I know just looks at the top 20 lists. You can't even search by rating. I'd love to see the 20 highest rated apps, rather than the 20 most downloaded.

    110. Re:And yet... by prockcore · · Score: 1

      What? I thought you worked for apple. How can you not know that apps are submitted in compiled form?

      It'd be pretty difficult to submit a project that doesn't build, since you submit it already built.

    111. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is it with all you trolls? If Google, Microsoft, or any other company in existence did this, people here would be up in arms. I mean what is it, we accept apple to do shitty things because they are allowed to? We say things that simply aren't true to make the author of this app feel like shit and prop up a publicly traded company that DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT YOU! You guys really need to get a life and stop working as unpaid marketers for a company that has a obsessive compulsive control problem. You are the same guys who berate Microsoft for their proprietary stance but then turn around and say that a closed restricted ecosystem where a company tells me what I can and cannot run on my device is a utopia. I don't buy it. Unless you have shares in AAPL, why don't you keep your little corporate fanboyism to yourself?

      As to the author of the app in question, the Apple App store seems to be more trouble than it is worth and I would recommend avoiding them at all costs in the future. Release your app on Android, Symbian, Blackberry, hell even a Java ME version I guess but stay the hell away from Apple. Besides the obvious, just scroll up and look at who you have to actually deal with. Intolerant people who assume the worst about you and your app because it doesn't mesh with their feel good view of a company that sells hype on a PCB.

    112. Re:And yet... by jcr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      the fraction could be pretty large. ...or it could be a couple of dozen people out of a pool of ten thousand. I'm more inclined to believe the latter.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    113. Re:And yet... by jcr · · Score: 1

      I thought you worked for apple.

      Not lately.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    114. Re:And yet... by jcr · · Score: 1

      How can you not know that apps are submitted in compiled form?

      Oops. I said "build", what i meant was "pass the automated tests". I tend to think of unit testing as a build phase.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    115. Re:And yet... by jcr · · Score: 1

      I didn't see any difficulties developing apps for Windows Mobile in VS, for example.

      Hey, if you were comfortable developing for that platform, you're welcome to it. Somebody's got to do it I guess, and better you than me.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    116. Re:And yet... by ConfusedVorlon · · Score: 1

      I haven't met a single developer who isn't frustrated with the process (and yes - I have met a lot of iPhone developers).

      Sure, apps do get through. Apps that are simple and obvious in what they do are much more likely to sail through in a process that can take from 3 days to two weeks.

      Try to do something a little different though and you are taking a huge risk that your app never gets published.

      take one example from my apps. It's a simple app that is a UIWebView that redirects traffic to the google web optimiser (reduces download times when you are on a crappy connection).

      First of all, it took 7 months to approve. Most of that time was simply silent waiting, however there were about three rejections for straightforwardly false reasons (e.g. you have been rejected for implementing your own javascript rendering engine).

      Even once the app was approved, updates take an inordinately long time (over a month and waiting for the last update).

      It really does suck my enthusiasm right away.

      Another app still hasn't been approved after about three months. It has been rejected multiple times for a straightforwardly false reason. I have spoken to Apple's head of developer evangelism who commented that
      a) he could see that the rejection was incorrect
      b) he felt my pain
      c) there was absolutely nothing he could do as he simply wasn't allowed to contact anyone in the review process (and had no ability to contact them even if he was allowed).

      I got a similar response from the EU head of developer relations. He explained in detail that the apple system was designed to let him
      -ask about the progress of an app through approval
      -request an app be expedited if it was being delayed
      -have absolutely no ability to raise concerns or questions about a rejection

      and yes, I have put up with this pain because Apple have done an amazing job of getting users to buy apps via the store.
      I really am concentrating a lot more on other platforms though where I don't have to deal with this crap.

    117. Re:And yet... by TSPhoenix · · Score: 1

      Say there are two similar apps (is that allowed?) at $1 and one goes to charity, which would you buy? Some people like being charitable and may opt to pick the charitable author's program.

      How hard would it be for Apple to put his profits directly into the charity's bank account?

    118. Re:And yet... by hab136 · · Score: 1

      PhoneGap is not an "external API" any more than any other piece of open source code is.

      Open source is orthogonal to the issue; the same issues would exist were it closed source.

      The title page for PhoneGap's website, is "Cross platform mobile framework". It's a 3rd party API for various device-specific features (geolocation, vibration, accelerometer, etc) and lets you access them from Javascript. Point your UIWebView at a website instead of local content and now you're loading and executing new interpreted code on the fly (Javascript that gets turned into system API calls). So yeah, this framework seems to be against Apple's rules of no external code loading and no interpreters.

      The other thing to consider is that Apple has resisted allowing 3rd party APIs to become the development target. They want you to make an iPhone app, not a cross-platform PhoneGap app.

    119. Re:And yet... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      In the interest of discussion, can you specifically list things that you dislike about it (considering both native and .NET CE development)?

    120. Re:And yet... by malkir · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I find it funny that a company who has users that want things to 'just work' would provides those users with such a terrible email system.
      Mail.app, yikes.

    121. Re:And yet... by shmlco · · Score: 1

      "I don't know about you but I don't like having a 3rd party decide what code I can and can't release, and when."

      Try getting your widget-whatsit on the shelf at Walmart.

      Pretty much every store has someone whose job it is to decide what goes on the shelf and what doesn't.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    122. Re:And yet... by shmlco · · Score: 1

      "Imagine that there are 100,000 great apps out there. If they publish, 50k then they've encouraged those. But they've also discouraged 50k."

      Nice way to pull imaginary numbers out of your ***.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    123. Re:And yet... by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      The point is, how many apps are good. 49,999 people replicating some tutorial app and uploading it would be meaningless.

    124. Re:And yet... by Macthorpe · · Score: 1

      I would agree with you, if in this analogy you weren't forced only to sell at Walmart to actually have a working product.

      --
      "It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
    125. Re:And yet... by indiechild · · Score: 1

      You're nothing but a troll. The App Store has the best and most innovative apps for any smartphone platform bar none.

      But yeah, keep frothing at the mouth like the irrational zealot you are. Stick it to Da Man!

    126. Re:And yet... by dzfoo · · Score: 1

      Why is it so terrible? I find it exceedingly smart and useful. Back when I used Windows, my preferred mail clients were Eudora Pro, then followed by The Bat!. It may have taken me a few days to get used to Mail.app, but I think it is superior to those.

              -dZ.

      --
      Carol vs. Ghost
      ...Can you save Christmas?
    127. Re:And yet... by dzfoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >> "I can't imagine any other platform where the platform author can get away with this much restriction and control."

      Nintendo (SNES, GameCube, DS, Wii)?
      Electronic Arts (on game publishing)?

      I'm sure there are others.

              -dZ.

      --
      Carol vs. Ghost
      ...Can you save Christmas?
    128. Re:And yet... by dzfoo · · Score: 1

      The point is for you to learn how it works internally and understand the system. This is why it is called "programming class".

      Just as in culinary school you must make all your sauces and prepare all ingredients from scratch; reheating a frozen meal does not teach you how to cook.

      Once you're in the real world, you can use any of a myriad libraries and pre-packaged read-to-heat ingredients, that's your judgement call.

            -dZ.

      --
      Carol vs. Ghost
      ...Can you save Christmas?
    129. Re:And yet... by malkir · · Score: 1

      It's not the usability or functionality, that's all done (fairly) decently. There's little issues (eg: mail.app forces an SSL connection when connecting) which is really more of an inconvenience at when troubleshooting peoples mail problems. I troubleshoot mail/connection/server issues on hundreds of Mac's a month and have seen a lot of strange quirky bugs with mail.app. Issues with it not displaying mail, downloading mail from an IMAP subfolder repeatedly, extremely strange connectivity issues, issues with storing passwords on the keychain... I could go on and on, to be honest, it doesn't affect the majority of users - but it certainly effects enough users to keep me with a job. I generally just suggest Thunderbird, or for the Apple fanboys who refuse to part with mail.app when things can't be resolved, PostBox (PostBox) which is a retooled mail.app, offers some cool features though.

      /rant :P

    130. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you would take your head out of Jobs' ass for a minute, you might be able to appreciate that there *are* problems.

      Dude, seriously. Apple fanboys come here to suck Jobs's cock, and no other reason. It's no surprise he has AIDS, really, given how every Apple fanboy on Slashdot bends over for him just to prove how cool and gay they are.

      And apple haters come here to blow each other over the points they score calling out mac fanboys. Which is worse?

    131. Re:And yet... by Logic+and+Reason · · Score: 1

      The difficulty of searching for good apps is not a justification for Apple's policies. I have an iPhone, and I quickly learned that to find anything worthwhile, I need to search for reviews and such on the internets first. I suspect most other users, or at least those who download more than a couple of apps, do the same. Given that, the only possible justification for Apple's "selectiveness" has to do with possible Trojans and other malware, which should really be addressed via sandboxing or other technologies. Furthermore, if it were really only about saving users from shovelware and malware, then why wouldn't Apple allow those who know what they're doing to install apps from other sources?

    132. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      I haven't spent much time looking at it because it's of no interest. But long enough to know it does what I said it does.

      And any app, I can add some code in to change functionality by pulling in data from a website, which is perfectly legal.

      No it's not. If Apple know you are doing it, your app will be rejected.

    133. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      I've released many times to Apple, never once had a problem. A few delays for longer than I'd like, but no rejections other than for good reason. So I'd drop the attitude if I were you. It's what's holding you back.
      Apple don't reject on a coin flip, they reject for a reason. From your own description of events that includes using PhoneGap, which Apple don't allow. So don't use it.

    134. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      What fraction? We'll never know but I found it pretty easy to find other complaints.

      You always can with anything popular. Again the fact that you can find complaints doesn't indicate that that much of a proportion are having problems. The majority for whom the worst that happens is they have to wait a week before their app is approved simply don;t make a fuss. You don;t hear from people that are happy.

      As for my app, I fixed the problems that were-- as far as I can tell-- never there in the first place. It was published not once but twice.

      There's no indication in your article that PhoneGap was ever removed, so that's not true. It seems the odd accepted version was the mistake rather than the other way round.

      But I'm glad you've had good luck. I hope it stays with you.

      It's not luck.

    135. Re:And yet... by stephend · · Score: 1

      Apple doesn't reject apps because they're stupid, they reject them if they fail to comply with the terms stated in the developer program agreement.

      The real problem here is not that they reject apps that fail to comply with the dev program agreement -- that should be expected. The problem is that Apple keep creating new, arbitrary and undocumented reasons to reject both new apps and updates. Where, for example, did this "any apps with a UIWebView have to be rated 17+" come from? Has anyone seen a policy from Apple?

    136. Re:And yet... by thisnamestoolong · · Score: 1

      "How many iPhone app reviewers are there? How long does it take to fully test an application so you don't get sued for allowing something that:

      1) Bricks the phone 2) Has child porn shoved inside it 3) Is free, barely does what the description says it will do, and yet you need to waste your time deciding if it's just not broken enough to put up there"

      How would Apple be liable to be sued for any of these things? Any of these are possible when using a PC, but you don't see Microsoft, Apple, Canonical, Red Hat, etc. being sued for bad apps. User reviews can take care of this very well -- and if that is not good enough, why not have an Apple Recommended section, where all of the apps have to go through a rigorous testing phase? Or allow third party apps to be used, but require Apple approval for sale through the iTunes app store? There are many good ways around this that would make everyone happy. Setting up a toll plaza on the road to app development the way Apple has is a hugely anti-dev, anti-consumer, bone-headed move. I would have an iPhone by now if they would just fsck off, calm down a little bit, and be a little more open about things.

      --
      To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
    137. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 2, Informative

      They aren't incoherent. PhoneGap is a cross platform API. It's obvious Apple won't allow it.

      If you want to do a web app, Apple allows those. But you live within a strict security model, and you don't get revenue, and the user expects that it will be of web-app quality of interaction.

      This is an attempt for people to circumvent the security, functionality and revenue model for web apps.

      Finlly, what would happen if all apps used PhoneGap? Then the quality of mobile apps would go down to the lowest common denominator.

      No surprise it's not allowed.

      There's no point in the submitter crying. Just accept what he's told of the reason for rejection, and move on.

    138. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      The guy in the alley wearing a tinfoil hat and babbling about aliens has reasons too; the question is whether they are legitimate.

      Actually if the babbling guy owns the bowling alley, then it's irrelevent whether he bases his rules on legitimte concerns. If you want to use the alley, then you'll have to abide by the rules. I can see plenty of reasons why Apple might want to ban PhoneGap apps. But that insight is superfluous. I know its the kind of thing Apple don;t allow, so I wouldn't try submitting an app that use it.

      is blatantly anticompetitive and hostile to both developers and users.

      They're a business. They are allowed to be anti-competitive. Unlike the Windows case, Apple have nowhere near a monopoly on mobile phones or smartphones.
      Yes of course Apple don't want a cross platform API. They want superior apps that work like iPhone apps. They don't want to be a vendor of a commodity, where all all perform to a lowest common denominator. Neither do iPhone users want that.
      This guy did it because he was too lazy to learn the official iPhone API. Too bad. Good developers have more sense. Surprise surprise Apple wants good developers. Publishing on the app store (and getting that revenue) is a privilege. It's not a right.

    139. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 1

      Well, then I guess we don't agree. I think it complied with all of their rules from the beginning. I think that reviewers eventually agreed, perhaps after I pointed out why I felt that way.

      If Apple's reviews and reasons were more consistent, I might agree that I'm failing to comply. But they were never consistent and I don't expect that they could be. There's no way that they can tell the author of code nor is there any reason for them to insist that everyone write every line of code themselves. If anything, it's asking for everyone to make the same beginner's mistakes and that only increases the bugs.

    140. Re:And yet... by dr.newton · · Score: 1

      How would Apple be liable to be sued for any of these things? Any of these are possible when using a PC, but you don't see Microsoft, Apple, Canonical, Red Hat, etc. being sued for bad apps.

      In this case, Apple is distributing the application. It's possible the same would apply for Red Hat, if something made it into their Red Hat Network update channel that destroyed data, or caused a major loss of uptime for a large percentage of their customers.

      --
      Just another proletarian malcontent.
    141. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The really funny thing is the way these closet cases imagine that calling someone gay is the worst insult there is.

      Hello, kiddies! Being gay is a non-issue in the modern world. Find yourselves a church that doesn't teach you to hate yourselves!

    142. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And they also told me I couldn't tell anyone I was giving my revenues to charity.

      Sure, because they can't audit that this is true, and lots of lying sacks of shit would use this line to beat their competitors, then give nothing to charity.... or maybe give $.02 to charity.

    143. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 1

      TSPhoenix gives a great response to this.

      I think you make a good point, but why stop there. How can Apple police any of the non-fiction content coming through the store. If they publish my book, how can they be sure about any of the claims in it or any of the facts?

      Again, we're getting to the core of Apple's dilemma. They want to be the benevolent dictator making sure that everyone is happy with everything that happens with their iPhone, but they don't have the time or the energy to police it.

    144. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      And they are permitted by Apple. They are subject to a more restricted security model, and the user has lower expectations for the UI because they know they are running it through a browser.

    145. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 1

      I easily encountered more than a couple dozen people. You're only hearing the most vocal ones. Most are careful not to say anything because they don't want to offend anyone.

    146. Re:And yet... by thisnamestoolong · · Score: 1

      In this case, Apple is distributing the application. It's possible the same would apply for Red Hat, if something made it into their Red Hat Network update channel that destroyed data, or caused a major loss of uptime for a large percentage of their customers.

      I guess I should have made my point a bit more clear in the last post, but I see no reason why Apple has to be the sole distributor of apps for the iPhone. They don't do this with their PCs because that would be a suicidal business practice, but for some reason that is the best business model for the iPhone? I just don't buy it. We need to start treating phones like the little PCs they are, and maybe we can start moving the technology forward. Until then I think the iPhone will be nothing more than a trendy little gizmo and a fun distraction for the ADD generation.

      --
      To the haters: You can't win. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
    147. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 1

      Well, when you're being told your claims are absurd, you don't need to prove something accurately. You only need to suggest a possibility.

    148. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes of course Apple don't want a cross platform API.

      There's a couple of reasons for that, starting with Qt. What a steaming pile of performance-wasting, half-assed, wheel-reinventing crap that is. Second example: Adobe's in-house cross platform GUI library. Third example: EVERY Java GUI library. Fourth example: EVERY other attempt at a cross-platform GUI library that has ever existed.

    149. Re:And yet... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Programming class... let's see what we used.

      Several metric tons of C and C++ libraries that did things for us.

      Call me when you find a Programming class that actually forces the students to learn instead of laying on the crutches that are stdio.h and strings.h

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    150. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 1

      A perfectly fair point. But why stop with that auditing that? Do they fact check all of the non-fiction books? Do they make sure that Grand Theft Auto accurately represents life in a city?

    151. Re:And yet... by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 2, Informative

      > No matter how badly the OS gets broken, I can always use that backup bootloader to re-flash and start over.

      So in other words, its perfectly possible to brick it with software. You just have a handy backup available to un-brick it when you do. Right?

      Just like the iPhone. What's this you were saying about "proper design"?

      Maury

    152. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      I'd buy the one that appears to be the better of the two.

      If I support a charity, I'll donate some money. I don't need begging messages in the app descriptions thank you.

    153. Re:And yet... by kannibal_klown · · Score: 1

      Hell, in my opinion (and I do have an iphone) the app store already has *too many* apps, and the quality on the ones there aren't quite high enough for my liking.

      I can't blame anyone for thinking all of the apps on the store are bunk.

      On one hand I've downloaded and purchased some nice apps from the store. They're of high quality, much higher than I expected on a mobile device, and I am quite pleased. I avoid junk apps and only grab what I need/desire and looks of good quality.

      On the other hand, there are a LOT of apps on the store and many of them appear to be useless or poor.

      The good ones just get lost in the noise.

    154. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      The AC here gives the best summary of why Apple would reject PhoneGap apps.

      http://mobile.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1309199&cid=28765985

      I suspect you still won't accept it though. But that's your problem, not anyone elses.

    155. Re:And yet... by corsec67 · · Score: 1

      No, if you don't have to grab a screwdriver, it isn't bricked, it is just messed up.

      (Bricked: as useful as a brick)

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, don't search me
    156. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Far more iPhone apps get sold than Mac apps. Their "control and greed" plan seems to work. No ass biting seems to be on the horizon.

      What you mean is you WISH it would all go wrong.

    157. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a very Windows Vista / Animated Paperclip thing to do.

      Far better to filter out the worst of the crap before it gets listed on the app store.

    158. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Take a look at some of them. there is a number of them in the games section that are just "points" used for another game or are demos/crippleware. These two areas a bloating the numbers big time. Looking through the games on my ipod touch there is a lot of crap. There are very very few really stand out games. The app store isn't making any kind of revolution here and I'm considering more and more of looking at the Palm Pre for its apps.

      Granted though you can grab a copy of Rogue for free so that makes up for a lot.

    159. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, it's a problem for everyone. We have to live with this randomness. I would love to use UIWebView for a number of projects because it makes it very easy to find designers. But you make it sound like the security gap of the century.

      Why does it matter if the UIWebView downloads completely new content? It's still being interpreted by Apple's own API just as 3.3.1 insists.

      Frankly, there are many more dangers in native code than HTML and Javascript. Sheesh.

    160. Re:And yet... by bsane · · Score: 1

      I agree completely- there are way too many bad apps to just 'browse around', but the same is true of many other things:

      Books
      Movies
      Music
      Games
      Websites

      I may browse these things without purpose when I'm trying to kill free time (same goes for iPhone apps), but my expectation of randomly finding a 'keeper' is really low. If I go in with a purpose its much easier and quicker to either find something suitable or give up. With that kind of strategy, more is better- it may be hard to browse through 50k items its not hard to find something specific.

      The biggest problem is- the appstore search is horrible. If there was a flexible way to search for apps it would be exactly like searching for the other things I mentioned.

    161. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      1) It's a Windows derivative.

      No need for a longer list, surely.

    162. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Don't forget the harm that can be done on a Phone is greater. A malicious app could conceivably bump up your phone bill, or interfere with the phone network, or track you etc.

    163. Re:And yet... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      How many of them are good? Well, quite honestly alot more are good than if there was no review process at all. If there wasn't a review process, we'd see apps that ignored or borked your settings, leaked memory like a sieve, chewed through your battery life out of ignorance

      Actually, that software made it through the review process. It's called iPhone software update 3.0.

      The problem with the app store is that Apple is running it, not the community. They don't want any community involved... they just want customers. Let the community decide which apps should be successful through a rating system. Wait, hell no! We're Apple, bitches. We'll tell you what to download, and you'll like it.

      Ultimately, buying an iPhone is asking Apple to be your mommy and daddy and tell you what software is okay to run on your cellphone. Doesn't sound like a win to me.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    164. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Palmgear appear to be counting every x.x.1 version increment of an app as a "title" to get that figure. And in the loooooong time the Palm platform has been around, there's obviously been a lot of those.

      Apple is counting apps, not multiple versions of apps.

    165. Re:And yet... by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      How many of them are good? Well, quite honestly alot more are good than if there was no review process at all.

      Wrong. The approval process doesn't create apps, it only blocks them. It can't make more good apps. It can only make fewer good apps. Its point is not that it makes more good apps, it's that it makes fewer *bad* apps.

    166. Re:And yet... by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Apple doesn't reject apps because they're stupid, they reject them if they fail to comply with the terms stated in the developer program agreement.

      Or if they totally comply with the terms stated in the developer program agreement but AT&T decides they don't like the app.

    167. Re:And yet... by xednieht · · Score: 1

      It's a matter of QUALITY not quantity. The largest single segment of those 50K+ apps are games.

      There is nothing that the Apple App reviewers do that the user/developer community could not do better. App rating / content rating / stability rating etc. could all be easily performed by the community and moderated by Apple App reviewers as a second tier function.

      --

      Hope is the currency of fools
    168. Re:And yet... by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Apple? With the phone that needs to be jailbroken to get basic features working? Not exactly "Just Works" is it.

      And if you just want to make a phone call with features that just work, pick up a dirt cheap phone.

    169. Re:And yet... by SmilingSalmon · · Score: 1

      I work for a company that submits lots of eBooks to the Apple store. We get a lot of rejections and we get a lot of acceptances. We can't figure out any pattern. It appears completely random to us. These are all mainstream books from mainstream publishers such as you would find at a book store like Borders or Barnes & Noble. The rejected books don't have more violence, harsher language, more sex, or anything else that we can detect. The code wrapper we use is the same for all our books. Apple's rejection notices are completely unrevealing and you can't talk to real person there. Often we just repackage the app with the same content and resubmit it and it will get accepted. We waste a lot of money on this activity so, believe me, if we knew what Apple's criteria was we could modify our process to fit them. Like I said, our only conclusion is that it is completely random.

    170. Re:And yet... by syousef · · Score: 1

      Try getting your widget-whatsit on the shelf at Walmart.

      Why would I care about that? I can place an add in the paper and sell my widget whatsit without getting it approved?

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    171. Re:And yet... by Roxton · · Score: 1

      I'm glad Apple isn't letting the app store become a breeding ground for JavaScript proxy apps. We're finally getting to the point where widely used web-services are being turned into serviceable API layers, employed by beautiful native apps in a client-server paradigm. Anything that subverts that model on the iPhone needs a kick in the teeth, even if it amounts to corporate thuggery.

    172. Re:And yet... by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Far better to let the users determine what is crap and what is not.

      Let products live or die based on their own reputation, earned by actually being used by real people.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    173. Re:And yet... by MogNuts · · Score: 1

      I very much agree. But I also worry that, while apps are finally the best solution for mobile phones (made for the small interface--using the web like normal on a mobile phone will drive you mad, yes even using Mobile Safari), the problem is they do not adhere to normal computer software norms. I mean specifically that most likely that there are no new versions or patches to fix bugs. There is a Firefox 3.5, but 3.5.1 fixes things. There is no "BankSoftware" 1.0 app followed by "BankSoftware" 1.1. Exploits, data loss, and bricking i foresee being higher than normal. And I can't imagine with an IPhone it's like a normal computer, where you can just reformat and reinstall the OS.

    174. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 2, Informative

      For everyone's interest, here's the submitter's app:

      http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=310737253&mt=8

      And here is a list of the reviews it's had around the world so far. Every single review is a one star review. All complaining that the UI is broken.

      http://www.moopf.com/appstorereviews/appstore.php?appid=&urlappid=http%3A%2F%2Fitunes.apple.com%2FWebObjects%2FMZStore.woa%2Fwa%2FviewSoftware%3Fid%3D310737253%26mt%3D8&submit=Get+Reviews

      Apple's mistake was this one time they accepted the app. Not the many times they rejected it.

      Is there anything left to discuss?

    175. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wah wah wah wah wah wah

      Oh, poor me, Apple was difficult for me to get along with so they are gonna fail. Fail I tell you! Because, like it is *so* hard to get published there. I mean, look at all the apps in the store, only one or two because they are so hard. And the real developers (which I would know about real development) will soon give up and then there won't be any more app store.

      in some fantasy world anyway...

    176. Re:And yet... by COMON$ · · Score: 4, Insightful
      "Who wants a platform that is so locked down you can't screw it up hacking it"

      This is exactly why OSX is so solid, and why I am a linux/windows admin. Don't mod me troll or flamebait yet, I love OSX because of that, it runs very solidly and I barely ever have to go to my creative department to fix things, but you don't get a mac for its mod ability. But the reason OSX is so great is because it runs in a handful of platforms, so driver and software problems are minimal. I assume they are trying to do the same with the iphone, this will get you a solid device, even though it will be a pain to develop on.

      --
      CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
    177. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I have the same problem with using NetJets,"

      The iphone is advertised heavily on TV. It shows the features and apps. Their highlights alone seem mundane to me, and that's what they are choosing themselves to sell the device. Yawn. The iphone is also recognizable in person and seen in stores. It also has reviews and specs online. To me, the iphone is like the ipod, overpriced and subpar for what it is. However, it does offer the solution that few before put together a device that did the phone and browser thing really well and sold it. Like my mp3 player, the whole fiasco about apps is just another strike against buying one, similar to the ipod not playing many open audio formats.

      The specs suck. The screen rez is crappy. The service is overpriced. Where the F*** do you get off thinking an iphone is equivalent in analogy or access to NetJets? Aside from the poor hardware and overpriced connection, they lock apps. Oh, right, like NetJets, it's unlikely people will complain about the service they've overpayed for as a status symbol.

      Yes, I'm equally pissed at Nokia not integrating a really good phone given what I've seen with the N770 and 800 and 810 (they have improved with their N95 and N96 offerings), but Apple's solution isn't it. And Google for the Android crap--can we get some decent hardware please. What a disorganized disaster Google has become. For phrack's sake, Amazon with their Kindle's for all their lack of experience seems to have more of a clue than the tech companies. Meanwhile, Apple is supposed to be *the* tech company and they are producing crap. Hell, Viliv has products far more interesting than Apple--consumerism not cutting edge.

    178. Re:And yet... by drerwk · · Score: 1

      Do you not think it is trivial to tell which system and library calls your binary app is making? I don't know anything about which iPhone API's are allowed or disallowed, but let me assure you that it is quite simple to know exactly which calls a binary executable is making. Having the source code wouldn't make that any easier.

      Obj-C supports dynamic modification of a running app. You can add classes, you can add methods, you can change method dispatch all while the app is running. The PhoneGap code has an interpreter built in that does this. I don't know what Peter's HTML looked like, but if it included a single http link to a real server, then the PhoneGap code will interpret what is on that server, before displaying anything. So there would be no way to know what is being called.

    179. Re:And yet... by drerwk · · Score: 1

      PhoneGap includes its own dynamic interpreter. It will read a url and convert it to Obj-C calls. And since Obj-C provides for dynamic loading of classes and methods you could have PhoneGap reprogram itself entirely.

    180. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 1

      Funny, when I go to the store I see an average of two stars. If the average of the fifteen ratings is said to be two stars, how can everyone be one star?

      Second, many of those complaints appeared while my bug fixes were waiting in the queue. I described my frustration with trying to fix bugs in the piece.

      And I don't think it was a bug as much as a misinterpretation of how to use the system. I like taps on the top and bottom. Other apps like to swipe a finger-- something I find too much work. :-)

      The version that sat in Apple's queue included a new instruction box that seems to help.

      Third, I would have more time to find problems like this if I didn't get distracted by phantom menaces that might be caused by using UIWebView.

      Finally, if we accept for the sake of argument that the app was a pile of manure--something I don't believe-- than this still bolsters my thesis that the review process is random and can't be trusted.

    181. Re:And yet... by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      So in other words, its perfectly possible to brick it with software. You just have a handy backup available to un-brick it when you do.

      No. He can fuck it up with software. And run different software to unfuck it up. Probably choosable from a BIOS menu option.

      If he had bricked it, he would need another device to fix it... see the Developer Board he talked about.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    182. Re:And yet... by socsoc · · Score: 1

      You have a good point... I've been waiting for iKeePass for years and how many fart apps has Apple approved before reviewing resubmissions of an actually decent product?

    183. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Funny, when I go to the store I see an average of two stars. If the average of the fifteen ratings is said to be two stars, how can everyone be one star?

      See the second link. If your average has gone up in the 79 minutes since that script ran, then it probably means you've given it 5 stars yourself since reading it.

      But really, that you are arguing 1 star vs 2 rather than hanging your head in shame at such a pitiful set of reviews says it all.

      Second, many of those complaints appeared while my bug fixes were waiting in the queue. I described my frustration with trying to fix bugs in the piece.

      And I don't think it was a bug as much as a misinterpretation of how to use the system. I like taps on the top and bottom. Other apps like to swipe a finger-- something I find too much work. :-)

      And again idiots trying to do something different and worse than the standard UI is reason for rejecting the app. iPhone scrolls by swiping, that's how all apps should scroll.

      Finally, if we accept for the sake of argument that the app was a pile of manure--something I don't believe

      You don't believe it despite that fact that everyone who's reviewed it says so. Again that reveals a lot about you.

      I hope you give up trying to be a developer.

      than this still bolsters my thesis that the review process is random and can't be trusted.

      No, it means there are yet more legitimate reasons for rejecting your app than you mentioned in your summary. Again, the only mistake Apple made was the one time they accepted a version of this pile of crap.

    184. Re:And yet... by wizzat · · Score: 1

      Yes, but the question of "how many of them are good" doesn't tend to be an absolute number as long as there are a sufficient number of objects to start with. There are sufficient apps in the app store, and the review process rather strongly shifts the quality towards the better. IMO, they should have a *more* stringent review process. Consider the recent Hero of Sparta app: the intro sound ignores your settings and blares regardless. The app should have been *rejected* until that got fixed.

    185. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Far better to let the users determine what is crap and what is not.

      No, that wastes time reviewing and dumping lots of crap for every user. Whilst a few geeks on Slashdot might like that idea, most people prefer to be offered a selection with most of the crap already filtered. The evidence is in the success of the iPhone App Store, and of games consoles.

    186. Re:And yet... by bnenning · · Score: 1

      They're a business. They are allowed to be anti-competitive.

      And we're allowed to say that sucks for developers and users. And fanboys like you are allowed to mindlessly defend everything Apple does. Everybody wins.

      They don't want to be a vendor of a commodity, where all all perform to a lowest common denominator. Neither do iPhone users want that.

      I'm glad you took the time to survey all iPhone owners to determine that they would be grievously offended by apps using the documented API of UIWebView. This is especially amusing since the party line before the SDK came out was that web apps were all anybody needed and those evil hackers trying to write native apps were going to bring down the cell network. But I forgot, we've always been at war with Eastasia.

      This guy did it because he was too lazy to learn the official iPhone API. Too bad. Good developers have more sense.

      Good developers don't needlessly tie themselves to a single platform.

      --
      How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
    187. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Good developers KNOW more than one platform. Lazy developers think they can write once, run anywhere. The result when this involves UIs is always inferior.

    188. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 1

      And again idiots trying to do something different and worse than the standard UI is reason for rejecting the app. iPhone scrolls by swiping, that's how all apps should scroll.

      Why? It's imprecise because it doesn't always advance by the same amount. It's also too much work to use repeatedly when going through a long text.

      I'll ignore the rest and say only that I stand by my original points blaming confusion about the UI. I will note that other developers blame the "rate on delete" mechanism that skews the reviews:

      http://www.marco.org/66440065

      The sad problem is that this is really the only efficient way to collect bug reports.

    189. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because JCR use to work for Apple, when I found that out it all started to make sense... seems like he has been living in some alternate universe

    190. Re:And yet... by dzfoo · · Score: 1

      I did. Some of my core programming classes included the implementation of some higher level functions and data structures exposed in the standard C library. This was followed by the introduction of said higher-level functions and data structures and their applications to academic examples.

      Introduction to computer systems and programming taught us low level concepts, not BASIC.

      Of course, one of the courses in the curriculum included Assembly Language (x86), and Operating Systems (with the Tanenbaum book and Minix).

      If the lowest level you got in your programming classes was merely how to call STDIO functions, then your curriculum sucked.

              -dZ.

      --
      Carol vs. Ghost
      ...Can you save Christmas?
    191. Re:And yet... by lymond01 · · Score: 1

      I believe, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you don't have to go through the Apple Store to have an app placed on the iPhone. This is obviously the case if you Pwn the phone, but I'm not sure if non-store apps lack a signature which keeps them from being installed on a non-pwnd phone.

      In that case, just find the app you want and go to it. No need to wait for Apple's approval unless you want to use their store...which they keep an eye on, understandably.

      Business. It's how it works.

    192. Re:And yet... by mrjohnson · · Score: 1

      Meh, come to Android. You'll have no problems distributing your book or mentioning charity donations or anything else. I'd like to read it.

    193. Re:And yet... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      WinCE (and hence WinMo) is not a derivative of desktop Windows.

    194. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Why? It's imprecise because it doesn't always advance by the same amount. It's also too much work to use repeatedly when going through a long text.

      If arbitrary scrolling is needed then you'd tend to do do a long columnular format and use vertical swiping. If you need to do a page at a time, then horizontal swiping of pages is the standard method for that.

      If you have to ask why you should follow platform standard methods for basic UI design, then you shouldn't be developing at all. Well not unless you have someone else in charge of the design who's instructions you will actually follow.

      Look it's not difficult. There are plenty of ebook apps out there already. You could have downloaded one or two first to see how it should work.

      I'll ignore the rest and say only that I stand by my original points blaming confusion about the UI.

      They are confused because YOU made the decision not to folow the standard UI methods. It's YOUR fault, not theirs. Take responsibility, and accept that when the majority of people hate your app it's because the app is awful.

    195. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 1

      I think the URL should work on Android because it's also a webkit phone.

      http://www.wayner.org/books/ffa/webkit/

    196. Re:And yet... by Grizzled+Old+Scout · · Score: 1

      Let me haul out the RTFA stick. The author states clearly multiple times that he is not violating any agreements or terms of service. He is getting no guidance from Apple on *why* the reviewers think he is, and the company's responses are inconsistent at best. To suggest that the guy's problem is that he simply isn't playing by the rules is to suggest he is lying, because he says repeatedly that he *is* playing by Apple's rules, or is making every effort to. And still his app sits in the wilderness, disallowed from even entering the marketplace.

    197. Re:And yet... by peterwayner · · Score: 1

      Actually we don't know what a majority thinks. There have been about 300+ downloads. Only 15 chose to rank the app and they've given it an average of 2 stars. Sure, some couldn't grok the terribly complicated scrolling system, but I think it's still far from a majority.

      I would take a more detailed survey but I can't. Apple owns the customers.

      Now, on to the best way to page. The swipe is much too random and jarring. I downloaded other packages and read reviews like this one:

        http://www.teleread.org/2008/08/23/iphone-e-book-review/

      After some field tests, I adopted the one I did. It's still the most favorite. Many of my testers grew to hate the animation and the swiping. They wanted a tap. To this date, I still prefer my Palm TX which pages with a rocker switch.

      So there you have it.

        I've got to move on to other work now. You're welcome to have the last word.

    198. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. You are clearly in a world of your own, unable to learn anything from anyone else, including the bad reviews from your users.

      But hey, it's only hurting yourself.

    199. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Yes it is. Derivative doesn't imply "from the same code base".

    200. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      The author states clearly multiple times that he is not violating any agreements or terms of service.

      That he doesn't THINK he is. But then he also thinks he has a good app, when every single review he has slags it off and gives one star.

      He is getting no guidance from Apple on *why* the reviewers think he is

      Yes he has. He's been told he can't use third party APIs. And PhoneGap is a third party API.

      I've come to the conclusion he isn't lying. He's just in a world of his own and doesn't take on board anything he's told.

      And his app averages one star and so SHOULD stay in the wilderness. The version that made it on to the App Store should be pulled too.

    201. Re:And yet... by DECS · · Score: 1

      ... and how ironic is it that the complainer who is alleging "soviet style bureaucracy creating mediocrity" is upset because he wanted to publish a boring book as an "application" rather than just putting his content on a web site?

      Sounds like an ambulance chasing, nuisance lawsuit attorney complaining about the courts being backed up. Hey, here's a solution: get out of the way! There are lots of worthy apps in the App Store, just as there are lots of cool apps for any platform. Of course, for every great app, there are a hundred piles of crap, which is pretty much also the case on any other computing platform.

      If anything, Apple is raising the signal to noise ratio in iTunes so that there's more good stuff available and it rises to to top better than every other mobile platform store. In Apple's wording, a meritocracy. I hear complaints from two sources: developers peddling crap, and users on other platforms "assuming" without examination that the iPhone app store probably isn't any better than Symbian/WinMobile/PalmOS/RIM etc. Well it obviously is, take a look before you criticize things. And consider who is doing the complaining. Given Apple's previous lack of experience in retailing software successfully, and its less than ideal record in catering to developers, the App Store is doing quite amazingly well.

      Microsoft Bing share vs Google smaller than Safari vs IE

    202. Re:And yet... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      It's not the same architecture, either, if you mean that. It has a very similar userland API, yes - but then, of course, the question becomes, "so what do you dislike about that API?".

      And don't forget about .NET CE, either. Actually, I'm even more curious about that one, as its much higher-level, both in APIs and in tooling, and as such directly competes against both Apple and Google offerings.

    203. Re:And yet... by quanticle · · Score: 1

      Both as a user and a developer, I'd be okay with paying the cost of viruses and spamware if the benefit is a more open development environment without gatekeepers telling me what my app can and cannot do. But who am I to complain? I'm just a lowly Windows/Linux user.

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
    204. Re:And yet... by gilgongo · · Score: 1

      Certainly more good stuff than any other phone platform.

      You win this week's Damning With Feint Praise award! It's not as if we're talking about even a remotely mature market place here. Bought a commodity phone recently?

      --
      "And the meaning of words; when they cease to function; when will it start worrying you?"
    205. Re:And yet... by assassinator42 · · Score: 1

      It's obvious that people can't decide what "brick" means. As I and I'm assuming the GP understand it, "brick" means to render a device completely inoperable, making it as useful as a brick. That is, it could not be recovered without at the very least opening it up, perhaps even requiring a chip to be reflashed using a separate programmer. Most people would either throw it out or send it in for repair.
      If it is recoverable through just software on the user's end like an iPhone restore, it's not bricked. That would be like saying deleting GRUB "bricks" a computer.

    206. Re:And yet... by dynamo · · Score: 1

      Very true. For the record, I've had two submits to the App Store - the first took about 4 days to approve, the second took about a week. I would say both went pretty smoothly.

    207. Re:And yet... by dynamo · · Score: 1

      Yes, it's better. And that isn't possible on the iPhone.

      What does this have to do with App Review anyway?

    208. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Damning with faint praise?! There are GREAT apps out there. You are missing out.

    209. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When Microsoft stuff works perfectly no one writes about it.
      It happens when you are the leader.
      Gets used to it.

    210. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here is a small list of good apps:
      * GuitarPro (tuner, metronome, etc)
      * Pocket Express (news, travel, apps, etc)
      * WSJ reader (news)
      * TouchTerm (ssh)
      * Backgrounds (background pictures)
      * Skype (voip, only over wlan)
      * Lose It! (calorie counter)
      * Facebook (you know)
      * White Noise (relaxing sounds)
      * Tons of games like Crayon Physics, Cooking Mama, StarWars Force Unleashed, Chop Sushi!, Rollercoaster Rush 3D, etc...

      Choosing the good ones is difficult, but most of these are $5 or less so you don't really have to invest a lot to find out. What I know from my experience is that once a publisher has working a connection with Apple there is no fear of arbitrary rejection. I haven't heard any troubles at all and some more questionable products get commitment to launch or rejection well before the development is started.

    211. Re:And yet... by Kumiorava · · Score: 1

      There are strict laws about charity collection and those laws differ from state to state. You cannot collect for charity unless you have permission, Apple is just protecting the application developer from potential legal issue. Other aspects of the book can be true or false but they are not illegal to be published under free speech.

    212. Re:And yet... by drerwk · · Score: 1

      It is not trivial if the language you use is Obj-C, and you have code in your app that makes use of the dynamic modification features of the ObjC runtime. With ObjC one can add methods to class, and base the implementation of that method on a pointer to a random string. So no, it is not actually very trivial. And PhoneGap makes use of these features.

      Even in C and C++ you can pass a pointer to a function, you can create a pointer to a function, and so no, static analysis of the binary will not tell you every API call that is made.

    213. Re:And yet... by drerwk · · Score: 1

      You've had some nice comment on this thread. But it is pretty simple, if you look at the PhoneGap code there is an actual interpreter in there that will run code loaded from a URL. At least that is the case with the version I looked at this morning.

    214. Re:And yet... by RocketRabbit · · Score: 1

      This is a red herring that is often repeated. If the only problem with Windows was drivers, you may have an argument. But most Windows problems are not driver or hardware related - they stem from internal design problems inherent in the various Windows architectures.

      Quit pretending that the only reason that Windows is unstable is drivers. That is not true and I doubt you'd convince a large amount of people that it is.

    215. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny how people here with no experience of Microsoft products never have the fact that they do not have experience with the products get in their way when criticising them.
      You would think that there was one rule for them and another for Apple.

    216. Re:And yet... by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Game consoles are popular because they are SIMPLE and CHEAP, not because they are under the thumb of Nintendo or Sony.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    217. Re:And yet... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Simple, cheap, and in standard configurations such that games are guaranteed to run (no checking of "minimum specs" or nasty suprises of incompatibility like with PCs. Because they are safe (e.g. from viruses).

      One part of the simplicity and safety is that you can go to a store and pick from a sane number of options, with the safety of knowing that the console manufacturer has approved them.

      These are all attributes that the iPhone App Store has. It's phenominally more successful than all other smartpone app stores added together, although it was far from being the first. Why? Because Apple understands what ordinary people want. They understand why consoles are successful and they've built on that idea with their business model.

    218. Re:And yet... by bhtooefr · · Score: 1

      Don't treat illnesses. You do get the depreciation of happiness, but you get the drop in population, with less cost than curing aging or mandatory contraceptives (or even abortions.)

    219. Re:And yet... by COMON$ · · Score: 1

      I believe you are missing the point and are a victim of the red herring. I didn't say the only problem, you inferred that, however it is a fact that the majority of problems that users report are driver issues. What I said in my post above was that OSX's stability is largely due to the fact that it runs on stable hardware and from there you can extrapolate that this is due to the OS being optimized for that hardware making it very solid. No other OS comes close, except Solaris and AS400 equipment and then you are once again in an environment on a small set of hardware. Different strokes for different folks, so stop being such a flamer and enjoy the diversity.

      --
      CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
    220. Re:And yet... by konohitowa · · Score: 1

      No developer should have to go through putting together an application only to have it rejected arbitrarily.

      I agree. It's high time legislation was passed that no longer forces developers to target platforms except for those that they choose.

      Well I won't be buying an iPhone no matter how "cool" they look or what nifty features they have let alone gambling my time and effort developing for one in the hope that some junior Apple cronie rubber stamps it.

      I submitted your comments to Steve Jobs. Unfortunately, they haven't made it through the approval process as of yet. I'll keep you posted.

    221. Re:And yet... by iron-kurton · · Score: 1

      you don't have to go through the Apple Store to have an app placed on the iPhone

      That is only true in three scenarios:
      1. You have a jailbroken phone, and all bets are off.
      2. You are distributing in ad-hoc mode, and you're not going through the Apple Store. HOWEVER, you do need to get your certificate (not sure if you have to have it approved still?), and once you get that straightened out, you are good to go.
      3. You are an iPhone developer, and you have set up a provisioning profile to use with XCode. You can install your app on up to 100 devices to test. (no, you can't remove and then add, it's 100-lifetime devices).

      --
      Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine -- Robert C. Gallagher
    222. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. Your link to roughlydrafted propaganda is badly misplaced in this post - it has no relevancy to TFA so it really exposes you as an Apple minion.

      2. It doesn't matter that the dude wanted to publish his book as an app. That isn't relevant to the larger point (that Apple shouldn't be forcing business models on people using their draconian control of the app store)

      3. You continue to ridicule points of view that are non-apple rather than using logic/facts. i.e. you are a troll.

    223. Re:And yet... by mrjohnson · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I missed your comment. It's usable but the layout is a little off and the click/paging doesn't work.

      You can always grab the emulator from the sdk on android.com to see how it'd look on the phone if you don't have one. A couple tweeks here and there and I suspect it'd be fine.

  2. Yeah, platform is hurting by hieronymus · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Only a billion downloads. What a disaster.

    1. Re:Yeah, platform is hurting by nurb432 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Might have been 2 billion if it was an easier process.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    2. Re:Yeah, platform is hurting by Kinjin · · Score: 1

      So by your reckoning Micrsoft must have the best stuff ever. They have really big numbers. Big numbers always mean quality.

    3. Re:Yeah, platform is hurting by dogmatixpsych · · Score: 1

      Actually they are pretty close to 2 billion downloads! :) I don't know how many of those are free - probably most of them but still that's a lot of people using iPhones and iPod Touches.

    4. Re:Yeah, platform is hurting by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      If I have trouble getting my app released, it's hardly consolation to know that other apps are being downloaded lots.

      Alternatively, if I as a user want to download an app not on the store, the fact that I can download other apps (such as wonderful classics of "Display a spinning purity ring logo On Your Iphone" - cutting edge stuff) is not consolation.

      (Of course, I don't have this problem with my Motorola V980 that Just Works.)

  3. Good by kmac06 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Apple is not interested in allowing you to control your own hardware. This is just another example among many. I hope this sort of thing makes the iPhone and other Apple crap die a painful death.

    Long live Android!

    1. Re:Good by timeOday · · Score: 4, Insightful
      But it isn't dying a painful death in the marketplace at all, is it? In fact it's flourishing.

      You may recall this story about how Apple thrives under Steve Jobs dictatorial and secretive management style.

      You may even recall the infamous slashdot iPod launch coverage in which it was deemed "lame" because it was less feature-rich than the competition.

      This is the history of Apple: there is a market for simple, well-managed products that work out of the box, and maintaining tight proprietary control over the Apple universe is how this is accomplished. I don't know what this says for openness, but there you have it. So long as your use cases aren't too far out of the ordinary, I guess it's worth it to have the trains run on time.

    2. Re:Good by onefriedrice · · Score: 1

      Long live Android!

      Android will only be a success to the degree that it matches what consumers actually want. Here's a hint: The vast majority of consumers don't even want to "control [their] own hardware." They just want a device that works well enough and has the features they care about. Android may very well help phones be just that, but love it or hate it, the iPhone is there already.

      I'm confused as to why you think the iPhone and Apple's "crap" should die. Why do you care what other people use as long as there is a product (non-Apple, whatever) that meets your needs. I can only assume it has something to do with jealousy, but you should realize that that is pretty silly. People like the iPhone. Good for them. You don't like the iPhone. Good for you. Get something you like and let other people enjoy what works well for them, and there's not need to feel spiteful about it.

      --
      This author takes full ownership and responsibility for the unpopular opinions outlined above.
    3. Re:Good by mjwx · · Score: 1

      But it isn't dying a painful death in the marketplace at all, is it? In fact it's flourishing.

      Apple uses hype to drive the sales of its products. The thing about hype is that it can cover up any deficiency but hype has a very very short life. So as more and more people get the iphone, the hype begins to wear off. As people forget the hype and begin to see the deficiencies.

      The iphone will not die a slow painful death, it will be a quick emasculation as people begin to see how limited it is compared to the competition, in another 2 years (standard length of a phone contract) the iphone will be like most apple products, for fanboys only. They went overboard with the 3Gs hype, there can never be an iphone that can be perceived to be greater then this one, this is a death knell of sorts for the iphone as Apple is completely reliant on perception for sales. There you have the true history of Apple, a short time at the top followed by years of only selling to fanboys.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    4. Re:Good by EggyToast · · Score: 1

      Like the iPod, which is definitely an also-ran in the world of portable music. I remember 3 years ago when the iPod was at the top of its game, and once everyone owned one the hype was exposed and now you can't even find them at WalMart.

    5. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As the mutual fund industry likes to point out, current results are no indication of future ones. They may thrive in the short term but would be stunted in the long term. They are risking having the competition catch up and eat their lunch.

    6. Re:Good by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Like the iPod, which is definitely an also-ran in the world of portable music

      I dislike Apple but I also have to give credit where credit is due.

      The Ipod came in when there were effectively no other players in the portable media device market, it managed to take an unutilised and uncontested market, even I bought one and this was my first experience with Apple (mine was a commodore house in the 80's). It broke within a year, not covered by warranty of course. In stark comparison to my CD Walkman that I bought in 1999 that still worked in 2004 when I got rid of it. Now days however there are many different players in the PMP/MP3 player market, quality alternatives like Iriver and Cowon right down to the cheap unbranded MP3 players, all of them cheaper then the nearby ipod. People are now seeing that they have a choice, for years the only way to get a non-apple MP3 player in Perth (Australia) was by mail order, this changed recently and now I'm seeing more non-ipod MP3 players then ipods.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    7. Re:Good by MeNeXT · · Score: 1

      The Apple ][ was the most popular PC back in it's time. Everyone was sure that the PC would just stagnate since hardly any apps or games were available when it was first released. As more and more competition starts building, the clients who are left with a sour taste in their mouths will move away. So far the early adopters who have the means to afford a voice and data plan are the ones who are starting to feel the bitter taste in their mouths. It does not take long to alienate your clients. I know as many people who have owned an iPhone and who have traded it in for something else than the people that I know who own one today.
       

      This is the second smartphone I own and the value it adds does not compensate the value it lacks.
       

      I remember when Apple was dying because of Steve Jobs.... Apple was thriving because it borrowed FreeBSD code and was humble and cooperative. As it converts itself to the NEW Apple it probably won't thrive as long because it starting to look a lot like the OLD Apple which couldn't see the forest from the trees.

      --
      DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
    8. Re:Good by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Not hype. The early adopters of the iPhone bought because they can see something you can't. The value of good design. And I don't just mean industrial design. I mean UI design. For example the iPhone was the first mobile phone with a web-browser that behaved the same as a desktop one but was still usable on a phone sized screen. That's because of the innovative design of the zooming and scrolling UI.

      The later masses have bought into the iPhone because they've seen someone else's being used, perhaps browsing or some of the third party apps, and have been blown away and decided they want one. The apps have been a success because Apple are the only vendor that have made it so easy to buy, download and install apps.

      The iPhone has been the roaring success it has because it's years ahead of any other smartphone. To deny that just illustrates that you don't really know the market, and probably haven't used an iPhone.

    9. Re:Good by mjwx · · Score: 1, Troll

      Not hype. The early adopters of the iPhone bought because they can see something you can't.

      Fanboys see many things I cant but to make up for it they cant see many things that are quite obvious to others, like hype.

      The value of good design.

      Yes, a UI will always overcome poor engineering like overheating issues. The Iphone has no other merits apart from being easy on the eye and that is entirely subjective.

      That's because of the innovative design of the zooming and scrolling UI.

      Because scrolling and zooming has never been done before. BTW, the iphone is not a ZUI (Zooming User Interface), its a GUI (Graphical User Interface) with a zooming overlay in some applications, like Windows has had since Windows 95. Hardly an innovation.

      The later masses have bought into the iPhone because they've seen someone else's being used,

      Apple experiences very quick bursts of sales at release time which taper off very quickly, this is consistent with hype based marketing and not with your point.

      The iPhone has been the roaring success it has because it's years ahead of any other smartphone.

      That's why it took 3 releases to do what WinMo could do for a few years and Android could do from the beginning (video capture, full speed HSDPA and so on). The only part of the iphone that is more advanced then other smartphones is the marketing. But don't let the facts distract you and other fanboys will always be there to buy the iphone.

      To deny that just illustrates that you don't really know the market, and probably haven't used an iPhone.

      Fanboy logic, argumentum ad logicam. If you disagree with me, you are wrong no matter what the evidence or facts arrayed against me.

      For the record, I used the Iphone in October 2007, a scant three months after its release in the states. This is unusual as I'm from Australia. I could have bought a legit Iphone v1 for 35,000 THB in Bangkok (A$1200 at the time), I played with one for a while as I had a 9 hour stopover with time to kill and was completely unimpressed with it. The only differences from HTC and Samsung WinMo at the time phones were superficial. Apple's dictatorial level of control over a device I am supposed to own is a major turn off for me, this is the kind of thing that they hype covers up.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    10. Re:Good by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Yes, a UI will always overcome poor engineering like overheating issues. The Iphone has no other merits apart from being easy on the eye and that is entirely subjective.

      You prove my point that you don;t understand the value of UI design, when it makes you think that means "easy on the eye".

      Anagin, this goes to show that you have either never used an iPhone or you are trolling. The zooming and scrolling in Mobile Safari does not exist in Windows, and was innovative.

      Apple experiences very quick bursts of sales at release time which taper off very quickly

      You clearly haven't seen the sales graphs.

      For the record, I used the Iphone in October 2007, a scant three months after its release in the states.

      Liar and/or troll. Given the number of times you've used the word "fanboy", most probably troll.

    11. Re:Good by n00854180t · · Score: 2, Insightful

      WTF are you talking about? No other players in the portable media device market when iPod was introduced? You've got to be fucking kidding me. You must be one of those kids that just bought an iPod when they started getting popular, and doesn't seem to recall the vast stretch of time when Apple had NO presence in MP3 players, despite their ubiquity. All iPod did was make having an MP3 player into a fad for little kids and celebrities, there were PLENTY of MP3 players on the market before the iPod, even if fanboys and small children like yourself can't remember them.

    12. Re:Good by n00854180t · · Score: 1

      And iPhone still can't multitask, unlike WinMo devices from ages ago.

    13. Re:Good by mjwx · · Score: 1

      WTF are you talking about? No other players in the portable media device market when iPod was introduced?

      Sigh, please re-read my post and take not of all the words used.

      The Ipod came in when there were effectively no other players in the portable media device market

      I'm sorry if large words confuse you.

      Prior to the Ipod the largest company producing a portable music player was Sony, Sony produced CD Walkmans and continued to ignore the MP3 market even after the Ipod became popular. The only significant company in the MP3 market at the time was Creative and their MP3 player line was best described "lacklustre bricks" and "oversized compared to a Sony Walkman".

      Despite all your incoherent frothing, I dislike the ipod and apple in general but I have to give them the credit here they managed to corner an ignored market using effective advertising. I bought one like everyone else (It's like trying drugs, everyone has done it just to see what its like) and was less then satisfied. I've since had a creative Zen (before they turned to crap) and an Iriver X20 which is now 2 years old and going strong. I've been thinking about replacing it with a Cowon but haven't got the money.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    14. Re:Good by mjwx · · Score: 1

      You prove my point that you don;t understand the value of UI design, when it makes you think that means "easy on the eye".

      Sigh,

      So a device with an excellent UI will always overcome usability, comparability and engineering problems? By that logic why isnt Vista the best thing ever under that logic, the UI on vista is excellent, its the engine that is terrible.

      You are placing undue importance on UI, probably as this is the only merit in the iphones favour. A UI will not overcome bad hardware or a bad engine, these need to be considered first, which is why Vista failed, they spent too much time on making it pretty and not enough time on making it work.

      The iphone is easy on the eye, but terrible for a phone as many functions like the much vaunted "pinch zoom" cannot be done easily with a single hand. Ergonomics is part of UI design and this is a serious failure, but dont worry, the marketing and hype has overcome this. Once again the "look and feel" of a device, any device is entirely subjuective (this means it will not be consistent between different users).

      You clearly haven't seen the sales graphs.

      Yes I have, going by last years, the iphone sales will taper off after 3-5 months, the fact its been increasing for the last 4 weeks is proof of hype based sales.

      Liar and/or troll. Given the number of times you've used the word "fanboy", most probably troll.

      Sigh, and I repeat myself, argumentum ad logicam. Because I disagree with you I am a troll? Can you provide some kind of evidence to support your wild accusations or do you simply not like what I am saying? I've used the iphone in BKK, again in Australia when it was released. Both times failed to impress me and the fact you don't believe me is not withstanding.

      Oh, I used the word "fanboy" 3 times.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    15. Re:Good by Kaboom13 · · Score: 1

      There wee a ton of mp3 players on the market before the iPod. The almost universal failure was terrible interfaces, both in the player itself, and especially in the software you used to put songs on them. The iPod interface was slick, and it looked stylish in a way that took a lot of the "geek" out of using one in public.

    16. Re:Good by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      I remember reading a computer magazine article about 25 years ago about how Apple Newton developers were upset that they were restricted to writing applications in AppleScript, which had limited APIs.

      I wonder what happened to the Newton? Gee its been a while.

    17. Re:Good by mjwx · · Score: 1

      There wee a ton of mp3 players on the market before the iPod.

      Hence my use of the word "effectively". The MP3 player market was for all intents and purposes ignored. The main portable music player before the ipod was the CD Walkman, spearheaded by Sony who continued to ignore MP3 players even when Apple proved they were viable.

      Certainly here in Australia MP3 players were almost impossible to find.

      The almost universal failure was terrible interfaces,

      Apple's success in the Ipod wasn't with creating the interface, as always it was due to their marketing. As much as the fanboys don't want to admit it, Apple interfaces aren't that good and using itunes is a lot more painful then using MSC to move music to my Iriver X20, but Apple's marketing centre's around the interface so this gets used a lot in debates about Apple. Few people have been able to point out what makes the Apple interface superior and normally just quote the "it just works" and "think different" catch phrases.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    18. Re:Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple experiences very quick bursts of sales at release time which taper off very quickly

      You clearly haven't seen the sales graphs.

      You're the one who's uninformed... Compared to e.g. Nokia smartphones the iphone sells really well but sales are 'spiky': demand drops faster.

    19. Re:Good by shmlco · · Score: 1

      "The iphone will not die a slow painful death, it will be a quick emasculation as people begin to see how limited it is compared to the competition..."

      Or, given the sales numbers for the G1 and the Pre, sales will skyrocket as people just how bad the competition really is. Look at the comments being made by Sprint's excecutives. They expected "millions" of people to drop Apple and AT&T and embrace the Pre as the original 2-year contracts ended. Didn't happen. All that hype and they only got 1/5th the sales of a mere "upgrade" phone.

      And the ORIGINAL iPhone must have been horrendous by that logic, as a million people stood in line to buy the 3G when it was released, and then a million more when the 3GS was released. 50 million iPhones and iPod Touch's in just two years.

      Yep. Poor poor Apple.

      And more storage, faster processors, higher resolution screens, HD video, better cameras, better battery life, front-facing camera for video iChat, built-in hardware for photo/video editing, WiMax, 802.11n, games, navigation, larger pad-style devices.... yeah, the iPhone 3GS is definitely the end-all-and-be-all of iPhones.

      Idiot.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    20. Re:Good by shmlco · · Score: 1

      "... comparability and engineering problems."

      Comparability problems? The ability to be likened or compared to something else?

      Oh, and if you really want engineering problems, check out the return numbers on the Pre.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    21. Re:Good by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      So a device with an excellent UI will always overcome usability, comparability and engineering problems?

      And again you reveal you don't know what UI design entails. Usability is not something other than UI design, it's the heart of UI design.

      You are placing undue importance on UI...which is why Vista failed, they spent too much time on making it pretty and not enough time on making it work.

      Again you fail. Good UI design is not "making it pretty". It's making it usable. Vista failed above all because it wasn't usable - UAC dialogs popping up constantly for example was a failure of UI design as much as the engineering of the security model.

      It doesn't surprise me you don't know what UI design is. It's fundamentally why people like you don't understand why iPhones are popular.

      You are placing undue importance on UI

      It's the most important thing (beyond bare functionality). If the user can't work our how to use a feature, then that feature might as well not be there. It's one of the main tasks of the UI designer to make the device usable.

      The iphone is easy on the eye, but terrible for a phone as many functions like the much vaunted "pinch zoom" cannot be done easily with a single hand.

      iPhone is undoubtably a two handed phone. For years Nokia refused to do touch screens for exactly the reason you state, because they need two hands. Guess what, Nokia have started doing touch phones now.

      And BTW, when I mentioned zooming in mobile Safari, I was talking about the feature where you double click to zoom in on a column. And the fact that it's a REAL zoom. Everything; text and graphics, stays in proportion. Nothing gets reformatted as you zoom. This was UI inovation with Safari.
      And on the scrolling, it's the way you can scroll quickly with a flick of the finger or slowly with a drag. Other phones were all using 4 way direction pads/sticks, or desktop like scroll bars in a miniaturised form.

    22. Re:Good by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      No, it really was their UI. I saw the adverts and reviews of iPods and wasn't inspired t get one. Then a friend let me play with his for a while, and I decided I wanted one because they were so nice to use.

      Again you are blind to good UI design. The market isn't.

    23. Re:Good by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      It CAN multitask. The in-built apps do it all the time. I can receive mail, ad listen to music whilst browsing a map for example. It's just that 3rd party apps are not permitted to run in the background.

      There are pros and cons to that.

    24. Re:Good by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      You may even recall the infamous slashdot iPod launch coverage

      That was the Ipod. Not the Iphone, which has received nothing but an overwhelming amount of coverage on Slashdot (and elsewhere), far more so than other phones, even from much bigger companies that sell vastly more - these are hardly mentioned ever, let alone with weekly stories about every little event and rumour.

      This is the history of Apple: there is a market for simple, well-managed products that work out of the box, and maintaining tight proprietary control over the Apple universe is how this is accomplished.

      This is a false dichotomy. Other phones work out of the box without these restrictions. And if I need to jailbreak the phone due to the restrictions, that's not working out of the box.

      So long as your use cases aren't too far out of the ordinary, I guess it's worth it to have the trains run on time.

      If your use case isn't too far out of the ordinary, get a bog standard cheap phone that just works.

    25. Re:Good by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Its UI sucks in other ways though, e.g., missing fundamental UI features such as copy/paste. Zooming on web browsing has been available for years on ordinary phones, btw. (I'm not sure what you mean by scrolling? Obviously this has been around for ages.)

      The apps have been a success because Apple are the only vendor that have made it so easy to buy, download and install apps.

      If I want to download and install an app, I just click, and it just works, unlike the Iphone where phones need to be jailbroken for this to work anywhere. Again, a major UI issue.

      The iPhone has been the roaring success it has because it's years ahead of any other smartphone.

      There are plenty of areas it's been years behind even non-smartphones (3G, Java, video, MMS, copy/paste). OOI, how is it years ahead of all other smartphones? The only credit AFAIK is that it was one of the earlier phones with multitouch, but that was not "years ahead", and I'm not sure if it was even the first. All phone companies have introduced something new when their high end phones come out - it's called progress. Nothing special about Apple.

      (It also hasn't been a "roaring" success. An okay success for Apple, sure, but the sales figures put them as a niche player compared with say Nokia.)

    26. Re:Good by nsteinme · · Score: 1

      This is exactly why I jailbroke my iphone! I now have tethering, file system access, access to other app stores, video recording, and an NES emulator on my phone! It now does everything I want it to do and nothing I don't. If Apple wants to restrict what I do on MY hardware, then to them I say F*** you!!

      --
      call me FOSS im the boss with the sauce and the source
    27. Re:Good by Binestar · · Score: 1

      As has been mentioned, you don't understand what a user interface is. The physical size/shape of the phone is not the user interface. I've never used an iphone, but the UI on an ipod touch is really really intuitive. A layman can pick up the touch and use it. Period. No need to read instructions on how to use it. Just press places and you learn it fast.

      --
      Do you Gentoo!?
    28. Re:Good by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      The Ipod came in when there were effectively no other players in the portable media device market, it managed to take an unutilised and uncontested market, even I bought one and this was my first experience with Apple

      Other than Sony, Creative, Diamond Rio, whichever company made the Personal Jukebox, and a few generic style ones with boring names. I had MP3 players for years before the iPod came out. Some were smaller than the iPod when it did come out.

      People are now seeing that they have a choice, for years the only way to get a non-apple MP3 player in Perth (Australia) was by mail order, this changed recently and now I'm seeing more non-ipod MP3 players then ipods.

      Maybe it's an Australian thing?

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    29. Re:Good by BasilBrush · · Score: 2, Interesting

      iPhone OS 3.0 has copy/paste. And the implementation is excellent.

      Zooming where everything stays in proportion was NOT available on phones before Safari. They'd typically zoom by changing the size of a font, which caused a relayout, and the pictures and text didn;t zoom together. No other browser zoomed had iPhone's zooming method does before iPhone.

      Scrolling = scrolling by swipe/drag on iPhone. Scrollling via scroll bars or a 4 way direction pad is inferior.

      If I want to download and install an app, I just click, and it just works, unlike the Iphone where phones need to be jailbroken for this to work anywhere. Again, a major UI issue.

      There is nowhere else on mobile phones where buying, downloading ad installing an app is a simple click, other than the iPhone App Store. Or at least there wasn;t before Apple did it. And obviously you don't need a jailbroken iPhone to do it.

      There are plenty of areas it's been years behind even non-smartphones (3G, Java, video, MMS, copy/paste).

      iPhone has all those things but Java. Where iPhone is ahead is in the development environment, allowing far better apps to be written than any other phone platform. Core location, accelerometers, the quality of it's graphics (better than most handheld consoles), and the integrated model for getting apps onto phones.

      I'm speaking from experience here, I used to work for Symbian and have done contract development for Nokia in the past. Developing apps for them is a pig compared with the pleasure of developing for the iPhone development platform.

      Symbian/Nokia is bleeding badly. They are losing market share. Far from being a niche player Apple is the 3rd biggest manufacturer of smartphones worldwide. Yes Nokia and RIM are bigger, but third does not equal "niche". With the current growth rates Apple will lead before long..
      http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=985912

    30. Re:Good by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      There's always someone who jumps the gun, ignores the careful wording of a comment (like the GP's use of the word "effectively"), and starts acting as if the parent was talking in absolutes.

      But, that said, it's kind of funny when it's done by someone who's Slashdot nick is "Actually, I do RTFA"...

      Good luck to the GP. I've found that there's pretty much no way to couch a generalism in words that make it clear you're not talking in absolutes.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    31. Re:Good by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      I read the word "effectively". I understand the word "effectively". I thought that by addressing the effective competitors (via both a list and proclaiming that I had owned several of them), that I would preempt such knee-jerk reactions as yours.

      Many people owned MP3 players before the iPod. I certainly did.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    32. Re:Good by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Comparability problems?

      Typo,

      I meant to say compatibility, in reference to backwards compatibility and standards compatibility.

      Oh, and if you really want engineering problems, check out the return numbers on the Pre.

      This wasn't a comparison to the iphone, rather I was trying to point out how the GP was placing undue importance on the UI. There has to be an order of which things to fix and perfect first on a new device. Engineering problems should always be corrected first, as it doesn't matter how shiny and pretty you make something if it doesn't work. The Pre is a good example of this although the iphone has an unusual return/replacement rate for a phone, not that high compared to some devices like laptops or even DSL routers but phones have traditionally had very very low fault rates.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    33. Re:Good by mjwx · · Score: 1

      It CAN multitask. The in-built apps do it all the time.

      3rd party app's cant, so for all intents and purposes it cannot multitask.

      What if I wanted to listen to a 3rd party audio stream that Apple doesn't support in its default application and I wanted IM someone on a third party IM client? Also say I am a salesman and was contactable via IM, I'd like an autoresponder to my IM so customers can get a response while I'm in a meeting, well and truly ignoring my phone.

      There are a million and one uses for multitasking, especially as salesmen and management are looking to phones to replace their laptops for everyday work. The Iphone is capable of multitasking like WinMo and Android but its artificially disabled, this is even worse then if the functionality was not there.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    34. Re:Good by mjwx · · Score: 1

      As has been mentioned, you don't understand what a user interface is. The physical size/shape of the phone is not the user interface. I've never used an iphone, but the UI on an ipod touch is really really intuitive. A layman can pick up the touch and use it. Period. No need to read instructions on how to use it. Just press places and you learn it fast.

      Yes I understand what a UI is, compared to engineering problems UI problems are a distant second. Most people fail to understand this. I am simply unimpressed with the iphone and ipod touch as once you get past the shiny part, you don't have much left that is particularly good. In most devices the UI is easy enough to understand, if someone has trouble understanding Symbian (Nokia), Iriver or Cowon then they have bigger issues then their MP3 player or phone.

      Idiot proof interfaces are needed on public facing devices and sites, this is where UI even becomes close to the importance of a good back end as the user needs to instantly understand it. A device you are going to own for 2 years a normal person will take 2 minutes to completely figure out.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    35. Re:Good by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      3rd party app's cant

      Yes, I said that.

      What if I wanted to listen to a 3rd party audio stream that Apple doesn't support in its default application and I wanted IM someone on a third party IM client? Also say I am a salesman and was contactable via IM, I'd like an autoresponder to my IM so customers can get a response while I'm in a meeting, well and truly ignoring my phone.

      Tough on the audio stream.

      On the 3rd party IM app, that can use the new notification API to indicate you have a new message, even when the IM client isn't running. Or use an SMS (or MMS) like anyone with a phone would do normally for that use case.

    36. Re:Good by mjwx · · Score: 1

      No, it really was their UI. I saw the adverts and reviews of iPods and wasn't inspired t get one. Then a friend let me play with his for a while, and I decided I wanted one because they were so nice to use.

      So... you bought an ipod because someone else had one, if your friend didn't have one you would not have bought an ipod or purchased an MP3 player from another company I assume?.

      Market droids call this "word of mouth" and it is a commonly used form of marketing, please see "grass roots", "astroturfing" and "word of mouth campaigns" for more information. Word of mouth is one of the most commonly used marketing techniques because it is so cheap and can be highly effective (I work with a fair few marketers, they prefer to be called "Corporate Communications Consultants" though). The marketing got to you too, the fact that you don't recognise it is an indication of how effective it is (marketing is most effective when the target does not even recognise that they are being advertised to).

      Again you are blind to good UI design. The market isn't.

      Now this is just plain wrong, the market doesn't give a fat rats clacker about UI. Markets care about sales and profits, heaps of things with bad UI's sell. DOS beat Macintosh because Microsoft made deals, had superior marketing and was easier/cheaper to buy and run.

      Lots of devices with good UI's dont sell. The market is indifferent to UI, oddly enough marketing has the biggest effect on sales. Just because the Apple Fanboy Argument Kit says UI makes sales doesn't mean its true. According to Microsoft fanboys Windows is on everyone's computer because they chose to have it, not because MS strongarms suppliers.

      As I said in my last post, I've yet to meet a fanboy who can tell me how the ipod interface is superior to my Iriver X20. The Irivers interface is fine and the audio output is not skewed towards the square wave (bass) which makes sound appear louder but looses fidelity in the middle and treble ranges (I like guitar music, Hendrix for example so this is a killer for me). I've also yet to meet an Audio Engineer who will recommend an ipod for quality (I'll admit my sample size is 2, but they both tell me the same thing).

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    37. Re:Good by mjwx · · Score: 1

      And again you reveal you don't know what UI design entails. Usability is not something other than UI design, it's the heart of UI design.

      Allow me to say this slowly so you can understand.

      A
      UI
      is
      useless
      if
      the
      device
      doesn't
      work

      Do we understand why good hardware and back end is more important then the UI? A good UI is nice and most aren't that hard to figure out so it ends up being a competition over aesthetics, a competition that Apple takes to extremes. The way fanboys make out that any device that is not an Apple is impossible to use because it doesn't have all the apple shine to it.

      It is entirely possible to make a device with a good UI but terrible usability, Vista and the Palm Pre are great examples of this. Vista's UI is very slick and easy to understand until something goes wrong with the back end, this is the same with Apple, try troubleshooting a problem when a Mac user has installed something dodgy that messed up one of the com.apple.whatever files. Not fun let me tell you.

      It's fundamentally why people like you don't understand why iPhones are popular.

      Iphones are popular because of the hype. It's a well documented social phenomena, when one person pays attention to something then other people will pay attention to it. In addition to this Telco's are really trying to sell the iphone. Would the iphone sell if it were not as heavily advertised. Try to fool yourself into beleiving that the answer is not no but it is. Face it, the iphone is built on hype, almost all of the arguments you have used came from Apple marketing and press releases.

      iPhone is undoubtably a two handed phone.

      Which is terrible ergonomics for a phone. Picture this, you are in a crowded bar with a beverage in your hand, there is no space to put down your beverage and you would like to send a text message or look up the Footy scores. Phones are meant to be mobile and usable with a single hand, otherwise they'd be occupying the same space as laptops.

      And BTW, when I mentioned zooming in mobile Safari, I was talking about the feature where you double click to zoom in on a column.

      The best zoom feature is on the Android 1.5 browser. A persistent button zooms you out to see an entire page where you with a magnified window (about 3/4 the width of the screen and about 1/5 of the length of the screen in portrait) which you can move by dragging it with your thumb to the area of a page you want to view and automatically zooms to the selected area when the window is released (by removing your finger from the screen). This is ideal when dealing with large forums like the somewhat popular innovision, the apple pinch zoom does not allow you to preview the area you want to zoom in on.

      All the safari zoom functionality you describe has been in desktop browsers before Safari Mobile even existed (first seen zooming and automatic reformating in FireFox 1). I haven't used mobile browsers since before I bought my HTC Dream and I'll get back to the UI/usability argument in my closing statement.

      This was UI inovation with Safari.

      Wrong, most of the zooming innovations with desktop OS's and browsers came from Jef Raskin who left Apple to work on ZUI's. Mobile zooming is just a copy of existing functionality on desktop browsers and OS's, Mobile devices only just became sophisticated enough to copy the functionality.

      The UI is nowhere near as important as the devices engineering. A good UI is nice and it will turn a well engineered device into a great device, but it will not turn a badly engineered device into a good one (al a Palm Pre), a good UI complements good engineering. I don't doubt the Iphone's UI, I doubt it's underlying engineering. You do place an undue importance on UI as you seem to place it above any engineering concerns. Rea

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    38. Re:Good by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Tough on the audio stream.

      Not really and some people will put up with it. I know a Thai girl in Australia who listens to the Thai radio over the internet via 3G as this is the only way she can listen to Thai radio most of the time. The Iphone completely didn't work as mobile Safari refused to connect to audio, even if a third party client was available it would die if she tried to SMS and Thai girls do that every 2 minutes.

      On the 3rd party IM app, that can use the new notification API to indicate you have a new message,

      That's not good enough for an auto-responder. Multi-tasking is serious issue as more and more middle management types look to get rid of their laptop, right now they are stuck on WinMo and Blackberry. A VPN client as well, especially when we are talking about commercial Cisco and Nortel concentrators.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    39. Re:Good by BasilBrush · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So... you bought an ipod because someone else had one, if your friend didn't have one you would not have bought an ipod or purchased an MP3 player from another company I assume?.

      Indeed. I bought because I tried the product. Not because of ANY form of marketing.

      Market droids call this "word of mouth" and it is a commonly used form of marketing, please see "grass roots", "astroturfing" and "word of mouth campaigns" for more information.

      You don't know what you are talking about. Astroturfing is FAKE grass roots. There is nothing fake about my friend or my trial of his iPod. Again NO marketing of any kind involved. I bought because I tried the product, not because of any marketing whatsoever.

      Presumably you never try any product before you buy, otherwise your warped logic condemns yourself to being a slave to the marketing message.

      Now this is just plain wrong, the market doesn't give a fat rats clacker about UI.

      Actually that is only true of immature markets, and of the bottom end of the market. As markets mature, design matters.

      As I said in my last post, I've yet to meet a fanboy who can tell me how the ipod interface is superior to my Iriver X20.

      If you call them fanboys, most are probably ignoring you. Personally I haven't seen an iRiver in donkey's years. But back then, scrolling was inferior, and you had to manually drag and drop MP3 files from one place to another, rather than have them automatically sync with your computer.

      The Irivers interface is fine

      And the iPod's UI is and always has been great. There's the difference.

      I've also yet to meet an Audio Engineer who will recommend an ipod for quality (I'll admit my sample size is 2, but they both tell me the same thing).

      True. iPods are only average quality for audio. And yet the design (UI and industrial) they still sell far better than any competitor. You add to my argument.

    40. Re:Good by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      So they can buy another device. It's a free market. The market for good and easy to use UIs is far bigger than the one for IM autoresponders and audio streaming though.

    41. Re:Good by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Allow me to say this slowly so you can understand.

      A
      UI
      is
      useless
      if
      the
      device
      doesn't
      work

      Say it as slowly as you like. The iPhone DOES work. Indeed the UI doesn't qualify as a good one if the device doesn't work, so it's an irrelevant and dumb statement, only made dumber by you speaking (typing) slowly.

      Do we understand why good hardware and back end is more important then the UI?

      You think that. But you are wrong.

      It is entirely possible to make a device with a good UI but terrible usability, Vista and the Palm Pre are great examples of this.

      And yet again you demonstrate that you don't understand what UI design is. It's NOT pretty pictures. It's centered around usability, so no a good UI cannot have terrible usability by definition. That you think Vista has a good UI puts the final nail in the coffin of your credibility.

      You're boring me with your ignorance of the topic under discussion - UI design, so I'm not even going to read the rest of your drivel in that post.

    42. Re:Good by Kaboom13 · · Score: 1

      Apple's success in the Ipod wasn't with creating the interface, as always it was due to their marketing. As much as the fanboys don't want to admit it, Apple interfaces aren't that good and using itunes is a lot more painful then using MSC to move music to my Iriver X20, but Apple's marketing centre's around the interface so this gets used a lot in debates about Apple. Few people have been able to point out what makes the Apple interface superior and normally just quote the "it just works" and "think different" catch phrases.

      Wow, so Iriver had a better interface before they even sold hard drive based players? IRiver didn't have a product on par with the iPod until a year or more later. We are not talking about who has the best interface now, we are talking at the time it was released. At the time, I remember my friends flash based mp3 player requiring software so terrible it made real player look beautiful. Changing the volume required mashing hard plastic buttons you had to stare at to hit correctly. Playing a particular album required carefully naming your files so they would all be ordered correctly together, then finding it in the list of all the songs.

      The iPod ui, on the other hand, was simplicty and elegance. The scroll wheel made moving through the menus very quick and easy, and the tiered id3 tag intelligent views made finding and play all the songs by an artist, all the songs by a genre, a specific song, or an album, very easy. Of the ones I tried, the iPod was also by far the easiest to change the volume on in my pocket, without doing it by accident all the time. Oh, and unlike other players at the time, it made a VERY handy portable hard drive at a time when usb thumb drives were in the sub 128 mb range.

      I'm no Apple fanboy, I think their hardware is overpriced, and I think if they were given a chance they would be far worse then Microsoft in a monopoly position. I think the iPod was quickly surpassed by better players that were cheaper. But at the time of it's release, the 1st-gen iPod was the slickest shit around, and that was before they were "cool". When I had a first gen iPod, noone who saw it in public had a clue what it was. There were no million dollar silhouette commercial campaigns, there wasn't even an iTunes store. It was still a great fucking UI compared to the wretched pile of shit it was competing against. Before the hype, before the word iPod became synonymous with portable music the way Kleenex is synonymous with tissues, there were geeks who realized a good thing when they saw it.

    43. Re:Good by shmlco · · Score: 1

      "I meant to say compatibility, in reference to backwards compatibility and standards compatibility."

      Which is even more confusing. Backwards compatibility with what? Apps work for the 2G, 3G, and 3GS, so what's not backwards compatible? Much of the code, like that using Core Data, even works on the Mac.

      And standards compatibility? HTML 4/5? CSS? JS? JPG? MP3? AAC? MP4? ICAL? VCARD? To which "standards compatibility" issues are we referring?

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    44. Re:Good by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Say it as slowly as you like. The iPhone DOES work. Indeed the UI doesn't qualify as a good one if the device doesn't work, so it's an irrelevant and dumb statement, only made dumber by you speaking (typing) slowly.

      You're trying to convince me that a good UI will overcome a terrible hardware or operating system platform. A good UI complements good hardware and good operating systems but it will not make up for faulty hardware, a bad kernel or poor drivers BTW, these are not UI, they are significantly more important.

      I also didn't say the iphone doesn't work, I said the iphone doesn't work as well as you think it does. Behind the shiny graphics the OS is severely limited (artificially, it could be a lot more if the shackles were taken off) and the hardware is mediocre (not bad, quite usable and fairly stable but not praiseworthy) with the exception of the infenon 3G transmitter.

      You think that. But you are wrong.

      How, point me to one device that has a good UI and a buggy kernel and/or driver support.

      And yet again you demonstrate that you don't understand what UI design is.

      sigh,

      I fully understand what a UI is, it is how an OS interprets input and responds with output, UI defines the rules for how the OS behaves to user input and presentation of output and it is at least 50% aesthetics. A UI does not define how an operating system performs input and output, UI sits beyond the OSI model, on top of the application stack. A UI is not integral to an operating system but an operating system is required for a UI, there is no chicken and the egg problem here, Hardware first, OS second and maybe UI third. The UI only deals with input and output not OS functions. By the sounds of it you need to read the wikipedia page on what is a UI yourself, unlike the average fanboy I'll do some fact checking so I know what I'm on about

      So to dumb it down for you, UI is not just pretty pictures, its which pretty pictures the OS displays and when.

      But you completely missed the point, you claim the iphone has an all powerful UI that no other device can match, it doesn't and other UI's are just as good if not better, further more you claim that UI is more important then functionality and stability. From a consumer standpoint you have half a point, maybe but from a business standpoint you're dead wrong. People will not use a device that has bad hardware or does not do what they want.

      usability

      Define?

      As per usual you are using ambiguous metrics. If you define "usability" you will find if stretches across all factors, from hardware, to OS, to UI to the individual users preference.

      You are using UI as some ambiguous point which you have not clearly defined, you are using it because this is what Apple's marketing is centred around. As I've asked several times for a fanboy to define, clearly because I will call you out on this what is so superior about the iphone's UI but still I have no answer. I find the iphones UI to be exactly the same as that of my Nokia 6500 with a larger touch screen, icons aranged in rows and columns but its dumbed down a bit because its not menu driven and just displays all applications page after page. After using Android with various widgets (one for email, calendar, Google search, multiple time zones and processor clock speed) the way the iphone does things is a bit primative, not bad but nothing that is worthy of the excessive praise it gets.

      That you think Vista has a good UI puts the final nail in the coffin of your credibility.

      Fanboys don't like admitting this but Vista's UI is good (input and output are very responsive, accurate and easy to understand). I want Visa's UI on XP's engine (or better yet Linux

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    45. Re:Good by mjwx · · Score: 1

      So they can buy another device. It's a free market.

      2 yr contracts unless you pay A$1000. The market is not as free as you imagine. Nokia have an application to stream the Thai radio station from the internet, that's mainly because Nokia is the most popular brand of phone in Thailand. She's did get another Nokia, she's lucky she actually tried this on an iphone before signing a contract.

      The market for good and easy to use UIs is far bigger than the one for IM autoresponders and audio streaming though.

      You're thinking like a consumer, not a user with an actual need. Businesses have needs and will happily jump through a few UI hoops to get there, why do you think we are still on Windows after all this time, because Windows does what businesses need it too and they'll put up with the issues because of it.

      Also remember that your needs are not representative of the world at large, just because its "good enough" for you doesn't mean that its suitable.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    46. Re:Good by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Indeed. I bought because I tried the product. Not because of ANY form of marketing.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_mouth#Word_of_mouth_marketing

      You don't know what you are talking about. Astroturfing is FAKE grass roots

      These are all examples of marketing, this bit you missed. Next time I'll try and dumb it down for you. BTW, word of mouth and grass roots are both quite real forms of marketing.

      We are all subject to marketing, we all react to it. The only differences are is that some understand they are being marketed to and others do not. Word of mouth and peer pressure are very strong marketing forces, once they get started of course.

      Actually that is only true of immature markets, and of the bottom end of the market. As markets mature, design matters.

      Provide evidence?

      Servers are a mature market, yet Linux and it's CLI remain king, Apache and its text based config which is a metric crapload harder to configure then IIS.
      Windows, still has 90% market share.

      UI means very little, the market cares about getting a job done, it's goal focused not detail focused. A UI is a minor detail and will be ignored so long as the goal is accomplished. Design does not matter nearly as much as stability and functionality outside the art market. Who in their right mind would buy a faulty device because it looks good?

      And the iPod's UI is and always has been great. There's the difference.

      That's entirely subjective. I don't think the ipods UI is great. I don't think its any different to that of a Cowon or Iriver. Technology and price wise, the Cowon and Iriver are at superior.

      The problem is that you are thinking that everyone shares your views and needs, this is untrue, especially on a subjective thing like interfaces and aesthetics. Most people will ignore the UI as long as it is "good enough" to get the job done. Remove yourself from /. and other Apple fanboy circles and talk to normal people, the UI doesnt matter to them. Ask a bricklayer, pharmacist or mechanical engineer why they chose an ipod and they will answer 1. everyone else got one and 2. I saw the ad's on the telly, UI wont even register with these people even when you point it out, you'll get a disinterested shrug when discussing UI with non-fanboys.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    47. Re:Good by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      You're trying to convince me that a good UI will overcome a terrible hardware or operating system platform.

      I'm not trying to do anything of the sort. I'm saying the UI is the most important thing, not that the foundations on which it sits is irrelevant.

      And yet again you demonstrate that you don't understand what UI design is.

      sigh, I fully understand what a UI is

      I didn't say "what a UI is". I said "what UI design is." Again you display complete ignorance of the topic. Given that you won't accept being corrected either, there's no point in me wasting further time on your post.

    48. Re:Good by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      No, I'm thinking like a guy who used to be a software engineer when young and now in middle age am a product designer. You keep on talking about products from Nokia, I've actually worked on products from Nokia, as an engineer, and learned much from their interaction designers.

      You are an opinionated person with no knowledge of UI design.

      Businesses have needs and will happily jump through a few UI hoops to get there, why do you think we are still on Windows after all this time, because Windows does what businesses need it too and they'll put up with the issues because of it.

      Because of lock in. And UI doesn't override that lock-in because the systems are not typically bought by the people that use them. So they aren't aware of the UI issues. However in the consumer and executive market, the user DOES make the buying decision, and that's why Apple is making it's fastest gains in both desktops and phone in those markets.

      Look, you can save yourself from your woefully inadequate understanding of this stuff. I'll recommend a couple of books for you. They're now classics, both by Donald Norman: "The Invisible Computer", and "The design of Everyday Objects". They'll be an eye opener for you if you can swallow a little pride and read them.

    49. Re:Good by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Indeed. I bought because I tried the product. Not because of ANY form of marketing.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_mouth#Word_of_mouth_marketing [slashdot.org]

      You really aren't the sharpest tool in the box are you? Once again I didn't buy because I heard word of mouth. I bought because I tried the product. My purchase desicion had NOTHING to do with marketing.

      You imbecile.

    50. Re:Good by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Because of lock in.

      This is what infuriates me, business have all the power they need to break MS's or anyone esle's vendor lock in. The thing is they don't want to and it took me a few years in IT to really see this. This is what you don't understand about the purchasing habits of ordinary people, they will embrace comfortable objects, even when they are harmful because it is easier then making a change or as XKCD put it "rationalising the familiar is easy".

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    51. Re:Good by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Once again I didn't buy because I heard word of mouth. I bought because I tried the product. My purchase decision had NOTHING to do with marketing.

      Sigh, OK, we are going to have to do this one step at a time. Try to keep up.

      Why did you try the product?

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    52. Re:Good by mjwx · · Score: 1

      I'm not trying to do anything of the sort. I'm saying the UI is the most important thing, not that the foundations on which it sits is irrelevant.

      Yes you are. You've spent three days trying to ram that message in.

      I didn't say "what a UI is". I said "what UI design is."

      The difference to the end user is?

      This is the flaw to your entire argument. You are looking at everything from a your perspective rather then a neutral "user" perspective. You see technical specification in design, but you don't understand how average people see the working product. To an average person the difference between "bad and good" is massive and the difference between "good and great" is nothing. You are analysing things from your perspective and ignoring the fact that it is built on your knowledge and your bias and will not be shared by others. Because you are in a highly technical field your opinions are vastly different from everyone else's.

      It's also quite apparent that you've never really had to deal with the end user, whether they be internal or external. You simply do not see things from the perspectives of others and have difficulty recognising what is and isn't opinion. When I did tech support this is the first and most important lesson I learned, the user does not understand or care for the finer details of computer use, they simply wish to use it. As a good mate of mine who is a developer often says, "if given the choice a user will press the 'I just want it to work today' button".

      Because of these personality traits (they are not defects, but you are using them in the wrong way in this argument) you are unable to understand why others see things differently to you, thus when you see a divergent opinion you take it upon yourself to "correct" another persons view. To quote a phrase, "before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes", try to understand the others reasons for their opinions, to see it from their perspective or if you cant do that just ignore it.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    53. Re:Good by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Yes you are. You've spent three days trying to ram that message in.

      No. Your lack of understanding does not mean that I'm arguing something that I'm not.

      You see technical specification in design, but you don't understand how average people see the working product.

      You're a fool. That's what product designers spend all day doing.

      Anyway, enough. You seem to have a lot of time on your hands to type out stuff based on a lack of understanding of design. I would be wasting my time trying to educate you because you won't listen. And product design isn;t something that can be taught in slashdot posts anyway. My book recommendations stand if you have any interest in learning.

      One day, maybe you'll become a developer like your friend. Maybe sometime after that you'll get involved with the people that design products. Than maybe you'll begin to understand.

    54. Re:Good by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Oh I understand that very well indeed. That's why designs never start with a blank sheet. You always start with the users existing expectations of how products work. You improve some things with innovation, but you're always standing on the shoulders of what the user already understands.

      But in your post you state what businesses do and then jump and say that's what ordinary people do. But that's wrong. People don't buy the same make of car or TV or refrigerator or game console every time.

      Windows PC lock in is due to incompatible programs and data files, and user fears around those issues. It isn't a lock in based on their opinion of the UI. You can't generalise to other products.

  4. Looks like we have.... by pizzach · · Score: 1

    Nintendo 2 on our hands! You know, from the NES days. Big N Loyalists unite...what were we talking about again?

    --
    Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
    1. Re:Looks like we have.... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Oh look, Nintendo has the best selling console again. And they never stopped having the best selling handheld console.

    2. Re:Looks like we have.... by pizzach · · Score: 1

      Actually, my point hidden underneath my message was that Apple with the iPhone seems to be strict with the apps much like Nintendo was with games for it's first console.

      --
      Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
  5. Re:So... by the_humeister · · Score: 2, Interesting

    No kidding. Most phones can run Java programs. Sun even lets you download the SDK for mobile development for free!

  6. Re:So... by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Informative

    More than that, he is trying to create an app that is a book. This is something he could easily do by putting it on a web page, if he wants he could even limit distribution to only iPhones by using the User Agent string (ok, it's not perfect, but does it matter?), and to the average iPhone user it would be approximately the same.

    By putting it in an app, he is gaining the benefit of the Apple distribution system, and he is even hoping he will make money by doing so. In fact, I doubt he would even have tried making the app if it weren't for that (has he released a blackberry version?). He is not benefiting users particularly with this app (that is basically a fancy text file), he is cluttering up the app store with a moderately lame application.

    Which is fine, anyone should be able to write a moderately lame application, but Apple shouldn't be forced to distribute it for them. The bigger problem here is that Apple isn't letting anyone install apps on the phone in any way other than their distribution system. But once again, in this case it doesn't matter, because he wasn't trying to get on the phone, he was trying to get on the distribution system.

    So this isn't just a non-issue for those of us who don't have iPhones, it is a non-issue for almost everyone except those who want free advertising from Apple.

    --
    Qxe4
  7. Annoying process, but still worth it. by mgblst · · Score: 4, Informative

    I too have found this process annoying. Apples now ruling on UIWebView is ridiculous. I tried to work with them on not allowing any links to work, and they weren't happy enough with that, I still need to give it maximum rating.

    But the most frustrating aspect is having no communication with customers. A customer spots a bug, leaves a review that is it. You can fix it, but there is no way to get in touch with that customer, or leave a reply saying you have fixed it. There is even no message that a customer has left a review, you have to trawl through all your apps for reviews every so often, or you will never find out about this.

    It is a great system, I will keep producing apps because of this, but it certainly could be better.

    1. Re:Annoying process, but still worth it. by AndrewNeo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Can't you just post a link to a bug tracker in your product description?

    2. Re:Annoying process, but still worth it. by mr_zorg · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Amen to all of the things you said. I'm struggling right now with the capricious nature of the review process. My app is a gesture based music player with larger fonts, designed to make using your iPhone/touch in the car much safer. It was approved at the OS 3.0 launch, but a few bugs cropped up at the last second. I submitted a bug fix three days later, but it *still* hasn't been posted. Last week Apple rejected the update claiming it duplicates the functionality of the iPod app without sufficient differentiation. Really? Then how come you didn't pull the app completely (instead of just blocking the update)? And since when has the iPod music player offered gesture based navigation to change songs, etc? And why'd you approve it in the first place? Give me a break. I love Apple, but this has GOT to change. I keep hoping it's just because they're overloaded, but let's hire more people already!

      Shameless plug:
      FlickTunes (website)
      FlickTunes (iTunes)

    3. Re:Annoying process, but still worth it. by lurch_mojoff · · Score: 1

      iTunes app *reviews* are not a bug reporting system. Make it abundantly clear to your customers, probably best in the description blurb on the apps' page on the store, where they can express their griefs - support page, support email, bugtracker, etc., and equally clear that nothing that doesn't go through that channel will be considered or responded to. Problem solved.

      As for the ratings thing - are you absolutely sure that the rating actually impacts your app enough to justify your getting so wound up about it? Because for many apps the target audience is not under 17 in the first place - and not because of objectionable content but simply because teens by and large don't care about body fat calculators or cookbook apps. And more importantly, the only way Apple enforces these ratings is through the parental controls settings in iTunes and on the device. I'd wager that nearly all of your customers will not have parental controls turned on at all.

      Otherwise I do agree with you - there is plenty to be improved with the App store and iTunes connect. But it's not going to happen faster because people are ranting on teh intertubes.

    4. Re:Annoying process, but still worth it. by stephend · · Score: 1

      Can't you just post a link to a bug tracker in your product description?

      You can but many people won't use it.

      In the description for my app I have a link to the website (which has a support email address) and my support site (UserVoice). In my app there's an "Email me" button, a link to the website and the support website, yet I still get bug reports and feature requests posted as reviews.

    5. Re:Annoying process, but still worth it. by flashme · · Score: 1

      I strongly disagree with any statements saying there is no way to communicate with customers. I currently have 2 applications in the store and both of them have a 'send mail to developer' button that is easily accessible. The heading above the button says, 'For comments, questions, or feedback:', and I receive a lot of emails from my customers. I have never had anyone post a bug in a review.

    6. Re:Annoying process, but still worth it. by Stele · · Score: 1

      But the most frustrating aspect is having no communication with customers.

      Even worse are the comments from brainless (l)users who either didn't bother to read the help (which pops up automatically the first time you launch the app) or fail to even spend 5 seconds exploring the buttons before commenting about how some feature you advertised is missing and the app doesn't work so "don't buy it" when the (bleeping) button is RIGHT (bleeping) there on the first (bleeping) screen and you have no way to reply to the comment and say "here it is dumbass" so people aren't misled into thinking your app is broken.

      Sorry for the run-on sentence. Obviously this aspect of the comment system is quite frustrating.

    7. Re:Annoying process, but still worth it. by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Make it abundantly clear to your customers, probably best in the description blurb on the apps' page on the store, where they can express their griefs - support page, support email, bugtracker, etc., and equally clear that nothing that doesn't go through that channel will be considered or responded to. Problem solved.

      If only! Many people don't read the blurb before posting their support issue as a review.

    8. Re:Annoying process, but still worth it. by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      I've had both happen.

    9. Re:Annoying process, but still worth it. by keytoe · · Score: 1

      Can't you just post a link to a bug tracker in your product description?

      What on earth makes you think a user would follow such a link to, what appears to be to them, a random third party web page?

  8. Let's celebrate! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The coin toss at Applecame up heads 50K times. Wohoo!

  9. And this is different from what? by girlintraining · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sidekicks -- They have a "marketplace too". Locked down. T-mobile phones. Locked down. AT&T phones. Locked down. Almost every phone in existance has a "market place" equivalent, which has an approval process. Suddenly the iPhone comes along and people were expecting sunshine and kittens?

    --
    #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    1. Re:And this is different from what? by jpmorgan · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's not that other phones have a marketplace with an approval process, it's that the marketplace is the only way to load programs onto your phone. With a Windows Mobile phone, you can download and install a .cab from anywhere you want. If it's not signed you get a brief warning message, and that's it.

    2. Re:And this is different from what? by girlintraining · · Score: 0

      With a Windows Mobile phone, you can download and install a .cab from anywhere you want. If it's not signed you get a brief warning message, and that's it.

      Yeah. Most people didn't plunk down $400 for their phone and/or don't have a "windows mobile" phone. Most phones used by consumers today are locked.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    3. Re:And this is different from what? by metamatic · · Score: 3, Informative

      Sony Ericsson phones run Java apps, and are not locked. BlackBerry phones run Java apps and BlackBerry apps, and are not locked.

      Both may be locked to a single carrier, but they're not locked with respect to what software you can run, and where you can download it from. In fact, the iPhone is the only common phone I know of which has such a control-freak approach to applications.

      --
      GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
    4. Re:And this is different from what? by mjwx · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Almost every phone in existence has a "market place" equivalent, which has an approval process.

      Android: pay US$25, get published.

      Android Alternative: Dont pay US$25, publish the APK on your web site.

      WinMo: for all its flaws, build app, publish. There is no marketplace.

      You were saying?

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    5. Re:And this is different from what? by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Sony Ericsson phones run Java apps, and are not locked. BlackBerry phones run Java apps and BlackBerry apps, and are not locked.

      Symbian based phones as well.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    6. Re:And this is different from what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Suddenly the iPhone comes along and people were expecting sunshine and kittens?

      In the introduction of the iPhone, Apple billed it as having a desktop-quality experience. Not surprisingly, people expected a desktop-quality experience. So when Apple delivered an experience somewhere between cell phone-quality and PDA-quality, it's no surprise that they felt let down.

    7. Re:And this is different from what? by Homburg · · Score: 1

      Except T-Mobile and AT&T phones aren't locked down; you can install any Java (or Window Mobile, or Symbian, or Blackberry, as appropriate) apps you want on them.

    8. Re:And this is different from what? by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      "Most phones used by consumers today are locked"

      Maybe they are in the USA. However the rest of the world is not loked into the thrall of US telco's.
      Glance at an atlas, or maybe google earth. See the large portion that is not the US? Here pre paid are the bulk of locked phones.

      I recently looked at new phones, but the iphone was a none starter, directly due to the restrictions placed on it by apple and their app store.

      I bought a Win mobile phone and am very happy with it. Lots more available apps, a large part of which are free.

    9. Re:And this is different from what? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      You can buy WinMo and Symbian phones unlocked (including the ability to install applications without restriction). You'd have to pay more for that (because your phone won't be subsidized), but even then it's still not any more expensive than non-subsidized iPhone.

      Then again, this all is mostly relevant in the context of North America. Rest of the world is happily using smartphones without such silly restrictions in the first place.

    10. Re:And this is different from what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sidekicks -- They have a "marketplace too". Locked down. T-mobile phones. Locked down. AT&T phones. Locked down. Almost every phone in existance has a "market place" equivalent, which has an approval process.

      And many other phones let you buy & sell applications whenever YOU want.

      Example: Blackberry apps have been around for close to a decade. Before blackberry app world, you would pay money to a vendor, get the installation files, and install them on your blackberry. No approval needed from RIM. If I want pr0n on my blackberry, it's my choice, not Apple, not RIM's, and not the cell phone carrier.

      The iphone could have been revolutionary, but it is more of the same from the cell phone industry: locked down, with no user control, and you only get to do whatever the vendor deigns to allow you to do.

    11. Re:And this is different from what? by tiger32kw · · Score: 1

      Yea and then people bitch about how unsecure windows is on all levels and how these security flaws create problems.

      What we need is a mobile phone O/S that lets you install everything you want in the world, automatically filters through crappy apps, and will make sure the program is robust before it installs it!

      Can't have everything, when you add one aspect you take away from another.

    12. Re:And this is different from what? by blacklint · · Score: 1

      Also with locked software distribution are all the Verizon phones tied to BREW. Those can only download apps from Get It Now (if I remember the name correctly, it's been a while), and were also code signed. There were also almost no applications, and the ones that did exist were $5 tetris games and the like. Utterly useless except to make Verizon money.

  10. Re:So... by mgblst · · Score: 4, Funny

    Make sure you click on every story that doesn't involve you, and inform us of how it doesn't relate to you. I find that comments like yours really add to the discussion.

  11. Comparison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apple gets a lot of flack for their App Store reviews process, but how is it different than other platforms? Can I run unapproved apps like Bittorrent on a Verizon phone? Can I put a podcasting client on my Xbox?

    Apple does have room for improvement; a better list of what's allowed and what isn't, a way to appeal rejections, etc. (Apple bans pornographic apps, bandwith-hogging apps, illegal apps, unlocking and jailbreaking apps, viruses, and apps that duplicate functionality). However, don't act like they invented what Verizon and ATT and Nintendo and the others in the gang all did for ages before.

    1. Re:Comparison by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      The difference is simple, Apple has FAR more developers than the XBox does.

      This story is just someone else riding Apples success, sure its a gripe, but it wouldn't matter if they weren't doing so well in the first place.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    2. Re:Comparison by peterwayner · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Look around. Palm and Symbian applications can be downloaded from many websites. Here's a website with more than 500 open source Palm apps:

            http://www.palmopensource.com/

      Microsoft works with a number of stores like Handango.

      If the sandbox is good enough-- and it's not that hard to build a good one-- then any software should be downloadable.

    3. Re:Comparison by AndrewNeo · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's a lot different in the fact you don't need to be a large company and spend thousands of dollars on special developer units, and licenses, and software to do the developing. Apple has a one time cost of $100 to anyone, all you need is a Mac, which are sadly cheaper than an Xbox dev unit. (I don't know about Wii's, but the process is the same.) And, the development SDK is free for anyone. Verizon's process is, you have to spend about $500 on a certificate from Verisign, you have to be a big enough company to convince Qualcomm to give you testing rights on your phone (which you also have to buy several different ones to test on) and then Verizon might review your application. The BREW application development process is terrible.

    4. Re:Comparison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And how much do I pay to develop for any other PHONE? (Hey, it costs me 9 billion dollars to develop some software for a rocket, lets compare it to the cost to develop the software that runs on my watch! ) (note, numbers are totally arbitrary)

      Blackberry and Windows Mobile both have Java available, so you can develop (and distribute) for free wherever you want.

      Windows Mobile direct dev requires VS 2005 or better (or you can use embedded VC depending on version targetted) - this is a cost for native/managed winmo stuff, but if you dont want to certify it for Marketplace be my guest - nobody cares.

      The Windows Marketplace costs seem to be 100 dollars per app , and 100 dollars per year though [ http://developer.windowsmobile.com/Help.aspx ]

    5. Re:Comparison by n00854180t · · Score: 2, Insightful

      WinMo requires you to pay $0. Palm requires you to pay $0. Xbox 360 development requires you to pay the price of the device (MUCH MUCH MUCH less than an iPhone and Mac to dev with) and $50 (and nothing for development tools). You're full of shit. Apple has one of the worst developer programs out there, and most serious developers don't even consider writing apps for the iPhone because of how shit Apple's tools and fees really are. It's not worth having Apple arbitrarily reject your app if you're a developer that actually makes a living off his/her work, which most people making "iFart" for the iPhone aren't.

    6. Re:Comparison by mgblst · · Score: 1

      Yes, but you don't have the marketplace that Apple gives you. You get an amazing set of tools, and an established market place with a huge base of people who aren't afraid to buy stuff. Apple makes it very easy for developers and consumers, something that nobody figured out before then.

      And you can get anything you want on the iphone, you just need to jailbreak, as many people have done. Sure, it is a pain in the ass, but so is getting stuff on those devices. (except for windows mobile).

    7. Re:Comparison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow... and you even got "insightful". You clearly never developed for any device, WinMo included (by the way, how many times Microsoft is going to change name pretending it is new?). In any case, if they kept you from developing on the iPhone it really means that the system definitively works.

    8. Re:Comparison by Wovel · · Score: 1

      What great and useful app out of that group is missing from the iphone because it was ejected by Apple.

      *crickets*

    9. Re:Comparison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  12. Re:So... by PeanutButterBreath · · Score: 2, Insightful

    First they came for the "lame" apps that wanted to be distributed on the iPhone, but I didn't care because I didn't have and iPhone and/or trust Apple to filter apps for me. . .

    Its easy to shrug your shoulders now, when you don't care about a particular functionality. Or if you happen to be the type that habitually runs their cash through Apple's distribution system to buy gimmicky apps that you only use once.

  13. Re:So... by peterwayner · · Score: 3, Informative

    If you read deeper, you'll find the answers to some of your questions. First, the AppStore has proven to be worthless for driving any interest in my books. You can't even find the book by typing the name of the book into the search field. It doesn't help to add quotes around the name. You get other apps with odd names. Don't ask me what's going on.

    Second, this isn't about free advertising. I paid Apple to be included in their dev program. You can't even submit free apps without paying.

    There's been a healthy debate about the best ways to distribute books for the platform. I like many of the readers. They offer more features than I was able to hack together. But the readers add another layer between the author and the user. They deserve to be compensated. I'll probably experiment with them in the future too. But this was all about experimenting with the AppStore.

    Finally, I did build an HTML version and it works reasonable well. You can find it here:

          http://www.wayner.org/books/ffa/webkit/

    But it has limitations too. The marked up version of the book is more than a megabyte. Anyone can read it on their iPhone by hitting this URL. But the caching isn't great and they may need to reload it. The performance is much better as a direct App.

    In any case, I still think that iPhone users and iPhone developers should be able to find each other without waiting for Apple's clearly overburdened team to approve the interaction. That makes a good platform.

  14. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    here here!!
    I still pride myself on not carrying a personal mobile device (work is a differnet srory, but it never leaves the office)

  15. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sun even lets you download the SDK for mobile development for free!

    So does Apple.
    What the SDK does not include are signing keys, so you can't run your code on your iPhone without ponying up.

  16. Re:So... by interkin3tic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Make sure you click on every story that doesn't involve you, and inform us of how it doesn't relate to you. I find that comments like yours really add to the discussion.

    Your response is not really an issue for those of us who are not Rival.

    This message should be modded up to 5 insightful if recent trends are any indication.

  17. Re:So... by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

    This is not really an issue for those of us without iPhones.

    You forgot about ipod touches.

    Before you hit post, yes, this is still not an issue if you don't have an ipod touch or an iphone.

  18. Re:So... by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 2, Funny

    I find that comments like yours really add to the discussion

    --
    This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
  19. Author is a dumbass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Let's count off the ways that the author is a dumbass:

    • in the article, spells 'foreword' as 'forward' at least a half dozen times. For someone that wants others to read their work, this is ridiculous.
    • thinks that writing his own custom scrolling interface in Javascript is a good idea. There is a special place in HELL for idiots that do this (Flash devs, I'm looking at you). Unless I've missed something, the iPhone already scrolls.
    • and finally, the simple principle of "I'll write an app that shows an HTML page'. Guess what - they did it already. It's called a BROWSER. If you want to raise money, put up a donation button or something.

    If turds like this guy's app were allowed, the "too many apps" problem would be 100x worse, mostly with "MAKE MONEY FAST" (or the "Web 2.0" equivalent) versions of his idea.

    1. Re:Author is a dumbass by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      and finally, the simple principle of "I'll write an app that shows an HTML page'. Guess what - they did it already. It's called a BROWSER. If you want to raise money, put up a donation button or something.

      That makes the flawed assumption that A) everyone who uses it is on an iPhone with service and an unlimited data-plan or B) everyone can connect to a wi-fi network. I have an iPod touch, not an iPhone, reading this while on a bus would be pretty much impossible without an app for me.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    2. Re:Author is a dumbass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's already a copy of the book available on the app store in another format (PDF I imagine).

  20. Have you tried the alternative store? by szyzyg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I unlocked my phone within minutes of getting it home. I then proceded to take a look at the apps available via the Cydia store, which is unencumbered by the Apple review process.
    Pretty much everything I tried was garbage with the developers doing just enough to get something ported and then abandoning it regardless of what kind of glaring bugs are in the system, yes the reveiw process is harsh but it does help maintain a minimum level of quality that is bettter than 99% of the apps in the cydia store.
    (still, being able to get low level access to my phone still makes the jailbreak worthwhile)

    1. Re:Have you tried the alternative store? by MBCook · · Score: 5, Informative

      What percent of the 20+ million devices running iPhone OS do you think are jail broken? It's just not a reliable answer for most people.

      Some people see things how they are.

      --
      Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
    2. Re:Have you tried the alternative store? by foom · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'm sure part of the problem with the "unofficial" app store is that it's quite likely that one of these days, Apple will get serious, and make a bootloader without glaring security holes in it. (I mean come ON, Apple, the bootloader isn't that big!...)

      When that happens, it may be impossible to "permanently" unlock an iPhone without hardware mods, which will seriously limit the Jailbreak community -- probably into irrelevance.

      That's a rather big risk for anyone to take on in their development...

      Heck, I'm not even bothering to learn to write for the iPhone as a *hobby*, because it'd be a waste of my time. Pretty much everything I want to write isn't allowed by Apple's rules, and while my phone is Jailbroken, Apple is trying (so far, completely incompetently...) to prevent me from being able to buy a new jailbreakable iPhone ever again. So it seems to me that the iPhone is basically a dead-end platform.

    3. Re:Have you tried the alternative store? by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      How about not needing a store at all? How about visiting the developer's website to download and install their application the exact same way every computer user has been installing applications since the internet came into use? How about not needing to break your phone in order to use it the way you want to use it? It's all well and good that a member of the 4-digit UID club can unlock their phone, but the vast majority of iPhone owners either don't want to risk that, or don't even know it's possible. When you defend the Apple app store, which has quite a few junk applications itself (unless iFart is really your bag of tea), and is missing quite a few innovative applications that don't meet one or more Apple guidelines, by citing another store that has even lower-quality applications available, what exactly are you defending?

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    4. Re:Have you tried the alternative store? by talcite · · Score: 1

      I unlocked my phone within minutes of getting it home. I then proceded to take a look at the apps available via the Cydia store, which is unencumbered by the Apple review process. Pretty much everything I tried was garbage

      I know you're not really trying to make this argument, but it will probably come up in the thread so I'll address it here. The argument about locking a store the quality of apps isn't very valid.

      Linux distros regularly deal with open source app quality fluctuations and have no problem keeping quality high. Repos are a standard way of keeping tested, high quality apps and lower quality minimally (or un-) tested apps separated. Take CentOS for example: You want stable? Keep the base and update repos only. You want more cutting edge? Try RPMForge.

      Apple could easily open up another store with untested apps and give the standard 'caveat emptor' line. The decision to not provide an open store probably was more of a business decision than a technical quality one.

    5. Re:Have you tried the alternative store? by cmburns69 · · Score: 1

      Rather than remove the reviewers, the process could be made more transparent. My main frustration as an app developer isn't that the reviewers are fickle, but rather that I have no idea how long the review process will take. Even having some sort of visible queue or ETA (your app is 1045th of 1050 to review) would *really* help, because I could guess how long it would take.

      So far, my apps have never been approved in less than 3 days, and never longer than 14 days... But as the OP said, that's time that a development team is burning cash!

       

      --
      Online Starcraft RPG? At
      Dietary fiber is like asynchronous IO-- Non-blocking!
    6. Re:Have you tried the alternative store? by spearway · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You are missing the point. Developers wants their cake and eat it. they want both a cheap way of distributing their apps with low level of piracy and complete freedom to publish whatever they want whenever they want. This is just not compatible.

      The truth is that the App Store is a success for the developers and the users because of the abundance of relatively inexpensive applications, typically they are less than half their price on PCs. The main reason is that piracy is very low, but that also mean that someone has to administer the system. Yes the approval process can be improved but it will not disappear as Apple has to take responsibility for the distribution and integrity of the platform. That may be a break for rapid turn around but it is the condition for a functioning market. If you like a comparison the stock exchange can only operate successfully because of the SEC. It may be that in the long term there will be a separation of the approval / regulation process and the retail operation but we are not there yet.

    7. Re:Have you tried the alternative store? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm. How many millions of these "dead-end" devices have been sold now?

    8. Re:Have you tried the alternative store? by nsteinme · · Score: 1

      I have had only good luck so far using apps in the Cydia app store. Here's ones you should definitely try (these are must-have for any iphone): Cycorder (video recorder), PdaNet (tethering), MxTube (saves Youtube videos), Terminal (no explanation needed on /.), NES 3, and BossPrefs. The freer (as in beer) the better.

      --
      call me FOSS im the boss with the sauce and the source
    9. Re:Have you tried the alternative store? by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      You are missing the point. Developers wants their cake and eat it. they want both a cheap way of distributing their apps with low level of piracy and complete freedom to publish whatever they want whenever they want. This is just not compatible.

      You're missing my point. Developers want more than that, but they only get what Apple has decided to give them, and nothing else. Many developers want to distribute their own applications, but that's not even an option. Many applications are free where piracy is not a concern. Moreover, it's not expensive to self-publish and distribute things on your own web space.

      The point is not that Apple is giving developers a good option for distribution. The point is that Apple is dictating what the single option is, and you can either like it or love it. No other choices, sorry, unless you want to break your phone. It would be a completely different story if the app store was one possible distribution channel instead of the only one, but that's not the type of environment Apple wants to promote. They want themselves to be the single point of distribution for applications.

      If you like a comparison, assume that there was a single recognized stock broker for the entire country that everyone who wanted to play the market needed to use. It may be that in the long term people would realize there must be a better way and that changes need to be made but we are not there yet.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
  21. Re:So... by the_humeister · · Score: 1

    What I meant was that you can also load your phone with Java apps without paying anyone (at least the phones I've owned thus far from AT&T are like that).

  22. Wasted time by Djupblue · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why would I as a developer put time and hard effort into developing software if I believed there was a good chance it would never even get the chance to be installed?

    1. Re:Wasted time by stg · · Score: 1

      Same here. I was interested before the need to get their approval was clear. I've also heard the same sentiment expressed by many others in developer's forums.

    2. Re:Wasted time by adolf · · Score: 1

      Why would you, as a developer, care what anyone else thinks?

      Just create something useful and good that solves a problem that you care about, and polish it until you're happy with it. If someone else wants to contribute something (be it bugfixes, new features, GUI magic, translations, documentation, web site support, whatever), let them.

      Isn't that how OSS is supposed to work? Because, I mean: If nobody ever uses $yourapp but you, what have you lost? And if everyone and their brother uses $yourapp, what have you gained?

    3. Re:Wasted time by n00854180t · · Score: 1

      You wouldn't, because you're a serious developer that needs a return on his work. Several parts of which don't apply to Apple fanboys that are doing it as a hobby to better fellate Steve Jobs.

    4. Re:Wasted time by Manfre · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That plus the fact you have to pay to become a developer and can only develop the apps on a mac (with mac hardware), so that is another financial hurdle. I seriously considered developing iphone apps, but probably of it being a waste of time and money was too high.

    5. Re:Wasted time by ZorbaTHut · · Score: 1

      Who says every package is OSS? I've got some ideas of things I want to do on the iPhone. Sure as hell not going to, though - I like coding in Lua, and that's simply verboten on the iPhone.

      --
      Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
    6. Re:Wasted time by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      Why would you, as a developer, care what anyone else thinks?

      As a professional, I care about what my customers care about. If my app doesn't appeal to them, they don't use it and I don't get paid.

      As a developer, I want what I produce to be interesting enough to show other people.

      Isn't that how OSS is supposed to work?

      Most of what I write isn't OSS (although I'll contribute bug fixes if I bother to implement them). But even on a realistic level, that's not how OSS is supposed to work. That attitude is why there are eight-trillion apps that do the same thing okay-ish, with poor UI and feature sets. If you made the OSS project more polished than what it takes for you to be happy, you can make it easier to reuse your code instead of rewriting the code. (This assumes you can rise above the crap... but that's a problem of bad OSS development before). Then, instead of rewriting the code before they have to move on, the eight trillion developers can add a feature, or fix a bug, or somesuch. Then, instead of linear growth (and constantly getting set back to zero), we get geometric growth, as features feed on features.

      But that never happens if your code is "as polished as I would like it to be." Because I understand my own assumptions. Because my stupid acronyms make sense to me. Because learning someone else's system is harder than creating your own, so you have to work harder on other aspects if you want to ever get beyond what you can write.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    7. Re:Wasted time by Grizzled+Old+Scout · · Score: 1

      This, in a nutshell, is the problem. It's not that the centralized review process doesn't have some advantages, but it comes at a big cost. In addition to developers' resistance to heavily investing in an app that has a high chance of being rejected for arbitrary reasons, there's also the reality that Apple will kill (and probably already does) some iPhone apps only because they compete with similar and possibly lesser programs Apple *might* release down the road. Apple's deliberate monopolization of what can and cannot be installed on an iPhone cannot help but limit competition among iPhone tools and utilities, which in turn inevitably stifles innovation within that platform. And as TFA notes, centralized governing/approval processes have a long history of scaling very poorly and sometimes disastrously. Windows would have very little market share if every ISV had to get MS's explicit permission before getting its programs to install on Windows.

      It might take two or three years, but there's little doubt in my mind that the iPhone will lose any utility advantage it has to other, more open phones, and its market share will go with it.

  23. Are They Not Doing Anything While Waiting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I sincerely understand both the frustration and the annoynance, but it is almost like the developers are seemingly sitting still and not doing anything while waiting for the approval? I am sure they must be having other stuff to do while waiting for the approval and if the issue is going to be ongoing I suggest their strategy change accordingly although I am not defending Apple here at all. Apple should perhaps change their tactics or at least make it easier for updates to get through (like bugfixes) and the developers should not bet everything on one horse either.

    1. Re:Are They Not Doing Anything While Waiting? by n00854180t · · Score: 1

      They're probably working on non-Apple platforms where they won't have to worry about not getting a return on their work for seemingly no reason.

  24. Re:So... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

    Once again, it's not a problem of Apple's app store, it's a problem of restrictive DRM that doesn't allow anything but approved apps onto the phone. I am quite alright if Apple doesn't allow lame apps into their store, but I won't buy an iPhone until it is opened up.

    --
    Qxe4
  25. The review process certainly has its flaws, but... by salimma · · Score: 1, Insightful

    ... this example is not necessarily the best way to publish electronic books. Wouldn't it be better to put the book (both editions) up on Amazon Kindle, and let people use the Kindle app for the iPhone?

    Imagine the horror of having a 1,001 authors all packaging their books as separate apps...

    --
    Michel
    Fedora Project Contribut
  26. More sensible review please, not less. by PopeAlien · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If the results of the review process resulted in less junk cluttering up the appstore than the delays would be more acceptable, but the things they allow are just bizzare. Do they really need almost 400 separate 'supafan' apps from the same developer where the only difference is which celebrity news is being tracked?

    1. Re:More sensible review please, not less. by peterwayner · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, I think this getting at the deep point I was trying to make. Any one company-- even Apple-- can satisfy all of the demands of all of the customers. Many want only quality apps. Some want violence with faux school shootings. (http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/07/20/apple-approves-iphone-app-that-promotes-school-shootings/) Some don't.

      Apple can't make one group happy without angering the other. It's caught in an impossible bind.

      Personally I'm peeved that they approved this school shooting simulator before approving my GOLD app. But what can I say?

    2. Re:More sensible review please, not less. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do they really need almost 400 separate 'supafan' apps from the same developer where the only difference is which celebrity news is being tracked?

      Yes. Because Apple fanbois are simply too stupid to select the celebrities they wish to fawn over from a listbox.

    3. Re:More sensible review please, not less. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Yes. Because then the developer can charge multiple times for the same application and a (compile-time?) setting for a different celebrity." FTFY. Seriously, can't you recognize a price-gouging rip-off when you see one?

  27. Re:So... by phantomfive · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    If you read deeper, you'll find the answers to some of your questions. First, the AppStore has proven to be worthless for driving any interest in my books. You can't even find the book by typing the name of the book into the search field. It doesn't help to add quotes around the name. You get other apps with odd names. Don't ask me what's going on.

    But I'm willing to bet that when you made the app, your hope was that it would drive some kind of interest in your books. Why not make one for the Blackberry?

    --
    Qxe4
  28. How many apps ... by PPH · · Score: 1

    ... available for the iPhone nvolve some sort of fee/subscription/paid srvice from a third party? In other words, other than services/fees involving Apple/AT&T?

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:How many apps ... by mgblst · · Score: 1

      47.

    2. Re:How many apps ... by PPH · · Score: 1

      Not many then. That sort of re-enforces the idea that the iPhone isn't a very good platform for high value apps. There may be lots of stuff available for a one time fee. But services that will depend on Apple (or AT&T) not pulling the rug out from under them are probably going elsewhere.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  29. Apple is willing to take the risk. by silentsteel · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This has been how Apple has done business for years. How much more money could they make if they allowed OS X to be installed on any x86 PC? They do not because they like being in control. You do not purchase a Mac, or an Iphone, you purchase the experience, as regulated by Apple. Right or wrong, this business model is along the path they chose long ago so I doubt that they will change much now. If, as a developer, you do not want to play by their rules, then you can take your software elsewhere. Just as it is their right to do this, it is also your right not to develop for their platform.

    --
    I cut it three times, and it's still too short.
    1. Re:Apple is willing to take the risk. by mjwx · · Score: 1

      This has been how Apple has done business for years. How much more money could they make if they allowed OS X to be installed on any x86 PC? They do not because they like being in control. You do not purchase a Mac, or an Iphone, you purchase the experience, as regulated by Apple. Right or wrong, this business model is along the path they chose long ago so I doubt that they will change much now. If, as a developer, you do not want to play by their rules, then you can take your software elsewhere. Just as it is their right to do this, it is also your right not to develop for their platform.

      The experience must be controlled. If the user does something unexpected, the user must also be... controlled.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  30. Re:So... by MBCook · · Score: 4, Interesting

    That's your phone provider's fault. I've got an iPhone and I love it. I have wasted so much time with it. Trism, Peggle (great control!), and Flight Control have taken large chunks of my life.

    Both my siblings have Palm Pres. I've played with them, and they're quite nice. My only complains were the build quality (would like it a little tighter) and navigation (you have to know the gestures, they're not discoverable). The card metaphor is very good.

    But the app store is empty. There are three games, one of which is... connect 4.

    The SDK was just released to the public, in beta. It's not meant for games, it's barely more advanced than the first way to develop for the iPhone (which was so roundly criticized). You can't get accelerometer data faster than 4 samples/sec. Palm is supposed to be making a gaming framework, but who knows how long that will be.

    So right now Palm is taking submissions for their app store, which will only be able to handle non-demanding games (no Katamari Damacy there), for it's fall opening. Even if your game is done, no one will be able to buy it for months.

    Basically, the Pre will be devoid of good apps for at least the next 6 months. The situation is really sad. They messed it up, big time. The SDK, even in alpha, should have been available months ago, so there would be apps at launch.

    Windows Mobile has tons of apps, and a tradition of tiny little utilities costing $20. Combine that with the fragmentation of device capabilities and the market is... rough for a consumer.

    Blackberries? I've heard that to develop anything on them that doesn't look like a 1996 Java applet requires you to basically do the painting for every widget on screen. There is device fragmentation here too. The app store it's self is a joke, it's very difficult to use. There is no way to browse it from a computer, which makes using it a nightmare.

    Apple proved good apps were a "killer app". No one really "got" the importance of them before the iPhone's native SDK came out. Unfortunately, after more than a year, no one else is even close to being able to foster any kind of app ecosystem. Palm should have, but botched it.

    I'm not really sure about the G1. I'm guessing it's sales are just too small for it to reach any kind of critical mass soon (where the Pre has a chance and Blackberries are there).

    --
    Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
  31. What "App" did you submit? by Mononoke · · Score: 0

    Is there some definition of "application" that makes it synonymous with "static web page"? Seriously. You want people to buy your book, so you try to disguise it as an 'app' and get rejected. Sounds like a valid rejection to me.

    --
    NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local
  32. Re:So... by ksheff · · Score: 1

    then why bother with an iPhone at all?

    --
    the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
  33. Re:So... by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

    What if the subject of the discussion is the reason why it doesn't relate to me? i.e., what if the poorly-conceived App store is the main reason stopping someone from getting an iPhone?

    --
    "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
  34. Maybe it was rejected because it sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Was the html in his "Application" as bad as what was on that site? Why did I keep seeing the line ""? If I was apple, I'd reject an App that was just a piece of bad html too.

  35. Anyone saying that ... by DerWulf · · Score: 1

    Anyone saying "it's just a hobby" either doesn't understand what a hobby is or what "just" means. If people actually have a hobby it's going to be very very important to them. Anyhow, I wonder how many people would accept / defend a Microsoft app store that was there to ensure no kiddy porn or trojan could be loaded on your Windows PC.

    --

    ___
    No power in the 'verse can stop me
    1. Re:Anyone saying that ... by sbeckstead · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't believe a Microsoft app store would do any of that.

  36. Re:So... by peterwayner · · Score: 1

    Sure it's to drive interest in the book and maybe even raise some money for charity.

    And yes, the Blackberry is on the list. But after all of this grief, I've been aiming more to build webapps that work with webkit.

    The URL I've posted should work with some of the newer Blackberry handhelds. I just don't own one so I haven't tried it.

    And it should also work with Android and also the Palm Pre if they did a good job with their webkit.

  37. Re:So... by ksheff · · Score: 1

    Some of the gestures can be found in Palm's user manual that isn't included with the device, but has to be downloaded. It's easier to grab the 'tricks and tips' document from precentral along with whatever homebrew applications that people have already made. I don't mind not having 'demanding games' for the device and have no problems with the build quality.

    --
    the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
  38. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I figured as much; I just wanted to point out that the latest stable SDK is available for free :-)

    I definitely do think they need to allow people to run their own code on their own iPhone without going through provisioning hell (incl. the $99 fee) though, as the simulator is far from a decent way of testing things.

  39. A great example is the Quad Camera app by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The "Quad Camera" app has a bug that prevented it from working on the 3.0 OS. So the author fixed it, and submitted it to Apple over two months ago, and it's still not released. So those of us who upgraded to 3.0 lost this app and there is absolutely no recourse with Apple. There is no way to bypass the App Store and install a custom fix either, so they are happy to take our money but then they leave us in the cold when the app needs updating.

    Another annoyance is that the same author has three other apps which had the same bug and he fixed them all, but for some unknown reason Apple is silently ignoring the update for this one app.

    1. Re:A great example is the Quad Camera app by sbeckstead · · Score: 1

      Or maybe there are about 2000 other apps in line ahead of them?

    2. Re:A great example is the Quad Camera app by codepunk · · Score: 1

      It could be that it is using undocumented or not allowed api calls? A good majority of these
      camera apps violate apple rules so it should not come as a real surprise.

      --


      Got Code?
  40. just make sure it farts by ksheff · · Score: 1

    there doesn't appear to be a lack of those applications for the iPhone.

    --
    the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
  41. Re:So... by plaxion · · Score: 1

    Have you considered going through one of the online sites that are supported by Stanza and/or other ebook readers that are already available on the iPhone/iTouch platform?

    Personally I think the idea of having a seperate app on my springboard for each book is stupid and regardless of any level of interest on part for your book, if that's how you want to sell it, I won't buy it that way anyhow.

  42. Forget the review by NonUniqueNickname · · Score: 0

    The review process is fine. Apple's goal is to guarantee "quality" - as per their own definition. It just so happens that Apple's definition of quality is in line with how iPhone owners define it. The developer's opinion on quality means very little to Apple or to iPhone owners. What can, and should, be improved is how the app goes live. As it stands, the app goes live when Apple's reviewer approves it. This can be a couple of weeks after it was submitted, or a couple of days. Often blind-siding the developer. Apple should really, really, make it that approved apps go into a wait state, and then go live when the developer pulls the trigger.

  43. Re:So... by peterwayner · · Score: 1

    Yes, I did consider that and I may still follow that route in the future. But I like to experiment with new platforms and the iPhone has been one of the shiniest ones around. So I wanted to code it myself.

    While I can see why you wouldn't want another app cluttering the springboard, I don't mind it. I picked up a number of books from other devs and liked the experience. So I figured I would go ahead.

    Also, you'll notice, for instance, that the book has been available from SiSU archive for some time. http://www.wayner.org/node/5 So that's sort of a solved problem. :-) Not that it can't be revisited.

  44. So the iPhone is doomed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So, a guy with mediocre programming skills and even worse writing skills gets his app-that's-really-just-a-book rejected and this means the iPhone is doomed?

    I hear a lot about the app reviewers being jerks and very little about how the rejected apps in these stories aren't the least bit compelling. There may be worse already in the App Store but that doesn't mean all the crap must go in. And it certainly shouldn't make anyone sell their stock in AAPL.

  45. Re:And yet... Better Experience by Webcommando · · Score: 5, Informative

    I actually found my experience with the app process much better. Perhaps I got lucky since I'm not a big development house.

    My first application was rejected within a week due to a crash in a certain situation I hadn't caught previously (I should know better than to assume the debug build would act like a release build). Obviously, they go through each of the screens and check the functionality. However, I had expected one of the "nonsensical" reasons I've heard of or the extremely long review process.

    I was surprised that the reviewer put in what the error was and how to reproduce it. I reproduced the error and ultimately resolved. Next submission was accepted after about a week or so as well.

    Based on this experience, I really worked hard to anticipate issues with my next application before submitting. Made it in ten or so days in one pass. Both applications are rather benign without anything controversial which probably played into this.

    I feel fortunate that they made it through relatively easy. I hope the game I'm developing goes as well. The oblig plug -- GMToolKit (RPG helper) and FW Calendar (Calendar with fiscal weeks displayed) are the applications.

    --
    I love the sound of distortion in the morning -- webcommando
  46. Re:So... by gbarules2999 · · Score: 1

    He's pointing out that we are not forced into buying an iPhone. DRM that we don't buy cannot lock us in.

  47. Re:So... by MBCook · · Score: 1

    I know they are documented, and well documented. I was able to use Help to find out everything I needed (unlike on a Blackberry where the help wasn't very useful). But people can pick up an iPhone and start using it. Want to switch apps? Press the only button. Need to dismiss an app on the Palm? You have to use a gesture. It makes sense, but you have to discover it. Want to get to the app list on an iPhone? Use the one button. Want to do it on the Pre? Again, a gesture.

    Once you know a few little gestures, it works very well. Still miles ahead of Blackberries. I can't want to see people expand/improve on the card metaphor.

    As for build quality, it was pretty good but the ability to rotate the screen a few degrees relative to the keyboard made it feel less solid that it probably is.

    I mention demanding games because games seems to be one of the things on the iPhone that has REALLY taken off. Slower games should work (SuDoKu, crosswords, possibly even something like Trism). I just have trouble understanding how, after seeing Apple's success in games and apps, they release a phone trumpeting an app store that won't have apps for 3-6 months. It's odd.

    A nice phone though. If I was still on Sprint, I would use one in a heartbeat over everything else. If the iPhone didn't exist, I would almost certainly switch to Sprint to get one.

    Various Mac programmers/bloggers have got it right. It's a great phone, and very strong competition to the 2007 iPhone situation. Unfortunately, it's competing with the 2009 iPhone situation. It will be interesting to see how far they've taken it by this time next year.

    --
    Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
  48. Re:The review process certainly has its flaws, but by peterwayner · · Score: 2, Informative

    I thought about this before working on the project and I saw that many other apps were distributing single books. After I tested some of the free ones, I decided that it wasn't a bad system at all. Sure, it added another icon, but I could live with that. When I was done with the book, I was going to delete it anyways to make room for others.

    I can understand why you might want a different solution, but it boils down to a question of menu branching. Some people like a shallow tree with many options. Others want a deeper one. So it's a question of taste.

  49. Re:So... by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

    Depends, if you don't have a data plan I think though you still have to pay. I have a generic Samsung Propel (a767) and despite making a Java application that works just fine on the Java mobile emulators, I still can't get it to run on my phone when on a Micro SD card.

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
  50. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No FUCKING really? You got a +3 insightful for that?
    Seriously, we know. You don't care about the iPhone. Okay, that's nice, why did you click the article?

  51. Phoneless PDA? by tepples · · Score: 1

    Most phones can run Java programs. Sun even lets you download the SDK for mobile development for free!

    Unless the only network that provides decent coverage where you live locks out Java. Or unless you don't want a monthly phone bill but instead a phoneless PDA like an iPAQ or an iPod Touch. What phoneless PDA would you recommend for running Java programs?

  52. Consider Apple's motivations by CopaceticOpus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Apple's customers are not the app developers. Apple's customers are the iPhone users. So long as there are users waiting in line with money to spend, there will be app developers competing for that money, no matter how arduous the review process may be.

    This will only change when a competitor such as Android offers better apps or better selection than what the Apple store carries. This could happen, but it will take quite some time due to Apple's head start.

    1. Re:Consider Apple's motivations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It already happened, about 4 years before the Iphone even existed. Normally that wouldn't be a big deal, but this is /., WHY THE HELL don't you people know that the Iphone is neither first, nor best at what it does?
       
      I'm still using an old TREO because of a number of reasons. First among them being the aps. My device does everything the Iphone does, more actually, and it did it 5 years ago. It's been doing it ever since and probably will for the next year or more.
       
      The Iphone did some things right. The browser is beautiful. The interface is smooth and fun. That doesn't actually make it a good phone. It's FAR from the BEST of them for sure.
       
      The ap store is the least of the Iphones problems, and it's far from one of it's strengths.

  53. Re:So... by dbcad7 · · Score: 1

    Nothing wrong with a little sarcastic remark now and then.. You see, there are hundreds of other types of phones out there.. and they don't have this particular problem. Perhaps it is fair to poke a little fun now and then, when every little bitch moan and gripe about a phone has to be reported as news (real interesting at that).. I have authority to forgive him for his comment, because I spoke to someone who has touched an i-phone.. so I am blessed.

    --
    waiting for ad.doubleclick.net
  54. In what way is this bind impossible? by xant · · Score: 1

    You go with the ones who want faux school shootings. Why? Because it's a proven strategy: specifically a strategy of not getting in between people and the things people want, particularly when they're paying you for those things. It's like having a bouncer out at the loading dock, trying to break the nose of the guy delivering the stuff you want to stock your store with.

    Apple is trying to be omnipotent, which is impossible, but in no sense is it a bind. It's just hubris. They can choose to "unbind" at any time and let people develop applications for their platform without a gatekeeper.

    --
    It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
  55. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    True and in fact anyone interested in iPhone-like mobile development should be targeting Symbian and Windows CE devices. Both have an official certification/release channel but you can also go independent.

    Before Apple's app store was official I was considering it for my own projects. That is until I saw what was happening and how Apple is strongarming developers. I abandoned all my iPhone plans, bought a Nokia and started doing Symbian development instead. It's a bigger market anyway.

  56. Let me try to understand something by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 5, Informative

    is your APP pure HTML, or does it contain JavaScript code like the PhoneGap project uses?

    If it contains JavaScript code, maybe Apple didn't like the way it was designed as it was similar to the old PhoneGap code they rejected, did you update your JavaScript code to the new PhoneGap codebase that was approved, or did you remove the old PhoneGap code with different JavaScript code?

    If your APP is HTML with JavaScript, Apple might have an issue with that. Sometimes JavaScript code can do nonstandard things that locks up a web browser or causes incompatibility issues. When I programmed in JavaScript I had to keep changing my code to changing Web browser standards, as soon as a new web browser was released, the way JavaScript worked would change and I had to change my code to accommodate it.

    If it is pure HTML, there might be tags you are using that Apple finds non-standard and thinks they might run exploited code.

    Here is a story on why Apple rejected the PhoneGap framework in the first place.

    Yeah I know, Apple wants to protect their users and set quality control standards high, and they include such rules as not using third party or open source frameworks, and Apple does not want the APP modified on the iPhone after being bought, Apple does not want the APP to run on a competitor's phone (HTML and JavaScript applications can easily be ported to another format), and PhoneGap type applications may not work on future iPhones, it is all a matter of risk management. Apple does not want to risk anything so it sets strict guidelines on what an iPhone APP can and cannot do.

    Yeah ironically Apple has exchanged freedom for security, and in doing so shut out developers like yourself. Even something as simple as HTML code and/or JavaScript has to be reviewed and has a possibility of being rejected. It goes against the open source philosophy, I don't know what else to say. Even Microsoft is not that strict on what can and cannot be done on their smart phones or Windows OS. Except to say that Microsoft's products are more prone to exploits and viruses and other malware, and maybe Apple is doing this kind of thing to prevent exploits in their iPhone?

    --
    Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
    1. Re:Let me try to understand something by peterwayner · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's not worth speculating on why Apple rejected my application because I don't know. The notes were short and pretty much inscrutable. Eventually they accepted one version while rejecting one that was pretty much the same thing. So maybe it was some Javascript, but that doesn't sound like it should be against the rules. They only insist that code be "interpreted and run by Apple's Documented APIs and built-in interpreter(s)." Well, it sure sounds like Safari and Javascript fit that definition to me.

  57. Also maybe more high quality apps by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    After all, if you are just some guy messing around, maybe you decide to buy the SDK and release your apps. If they reject them, no big deal, you are just doing it for fun, or to learn, or to help people out, whatever.

    The same can't be said for a development studio. If you decide that you are going to commit resources to making an app, you are likely to want a guarantee that it can be released. You'd be real pissed to spend money training programmers on the iPhone SDK, and then many man hours developing an app, only to have it banned. Thus maybe you say "Nah, not worth the risk, let's not move in to the iPhone market yet."

    Now clearly some big developers have gotten on board, EA would be one, but perhaps others would do so, but are worried because of the potential for arbitrary rejection.

    You are completely correct that just because it hasn't failed, doesn't mean it couldn't be better. Also, at this point it is too early to say "Yes the iPhone app store is a success." Reason is that you will likely see responses from other companies. When those come out, that'll be the telling factor. If iPhone and app sales are strong, then you know Apple has succeeded. However if they start falling off as competitors offer similar functionality, then it is a failure over all, despite doing well early on.

    We are only just beginning the real mobile apps war.

    1. Re:Also maybe more high quality apps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, the iPhone app store is a success.

      There I said it. It's obviously true to everyone except the people who start their posts with, "I would never use an iPhone but...."

      Can we go back to to talking about how much Ruby on Rails sucks, or how Twitter is useless, or how the RIAA is the moral equivalent of Nazi party in wartime Germany?

    2. Re:Also maybe more high quality apps by shmlco · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "The same can't be said for a development studio. If you decide that you are going to commit resources to making an app, you are likely to want a guarantee that it can be released."

      If you're a development house and you commit resources and create a console game, is there an ironclad GUARANTEE that Walmart or Best Buy or Gamestop is going to stock it? No. The game may suck. The game may crash. And so on.

      Just like with music and books and video, just because you create it doesn't mean you're guarenteed to sell it.

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    3. Re:Also maybe more high quality apps by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      There's a huge difference between a game failing for other reasons, and a single company having authority over what can be released.

      Furthermore, anyone is free to host an app on their own site. No one's complaining that Apple choose what goes into their own app store, the problem is that people aren't free to host it elsewhere, unlike every other platform, where this just works.

      I don't get it. If any other platform was controlled like this by the company, there'd be no end of complaints from Slashdot. Imagine MS announcing that apps for Windows 7 needed approval? There'd be an uproar.

  58. unfuckinbelievable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Incredible though it seems, Apple developers are
    shallower and more fucked in the head than Apple users. Hard to believe but there it is.

  59. Re:So... by ksheff · · Score: 1

    I don't understand why they don't allow people to add free applications to the existing ones that they have now. OK..so, they haven't nailed down how they're going to do paid apps. Big deal. Let people put free ones on their download site for those that don't want to mess around with the SDK. I've also never understood the urge to start twisting on the screen either. "hey, my screen doesn't oreo......oh..now it does"

    --
    the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
  60. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    shut the fuck up douchebag. I'm going to kick your fucking head in and rape your eye sockets. Do yourself a favor: huff some gasoline and smoke a cigarette. Asshole

  61. They ask for it themselves by Ilgaz · · Score: 1

    I know XCode is great, mini OS X is great but there is no reason to prison yourself to a single device from a single company with a single app store.

    Look to Nokia 5800 at least or that touch thing from Blackberry. Release same application on them. It is amazing that people ignores these devices which sold millions especially Nokia ones since clearly Symbian Foundation will be a huge thing, more huge than you can imagine right now. We are speaking about a dirt cheap OS coming with a UI library already in use by thousands of apps and an entire Desktop environment itself named "Qt".

    It is like shooting TV series with Fox in mind and begging them to air it, without any kind of promise. You could say to them "Look Fox, NBC is already calling us, what is your decision?".

    For example, Skype managed to make entire Symbian community hate them by promising a S60 version for years and never releasing it except some joke like version on some British cell provider not allowing calls on 3G or Wifi. They made Fring the de facto standard for Skype calls and Fring doesn`t even bother with their official SDK. Now, if Apple decides Skype is bad for iPhone and reject their new version, they will sure whine. It would be way better if they had a working S60 version in use on millions of Symbian handsets. That guy rejecting app would think twice since Nokia owners would say "get a real smart phone" to iPhone owners. Skype could have an example in hand and they could even use it to force Apple to allow some features. For example, Video calling over IP solutions already started to appear in Symbian market, good luck making Apple allowing such thing on app store.

    1. Re:They ask for it themselves by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

      I think the really smart developers are porting their apps to the Blackberry store, the Android store, the Palm store, etc.

      I've been thinking about getting into development (if there are other interested parties, feel free to contact me privately) and certainly that is the route I would take.

      Even better, for some simple games obviously you just release for the various mobile platforms, but for web-based games using a third-party server, you can release the same game for Myspace, Facebook, your own third-party website, App Store, Android, Blackberry, and Palm.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    2. Re:They ask for it themselves by Ilgaz · · Score: 1

      I keep mentioning 5800 and Blackberry (Storm?) since they are touch based, the game or app could have same concept on them. Blackberry also opens the truly gigantic J2ME market option to some extent.

      For example, World`s number 1 Mobile browser is Opera Mini right now which is a truly goodly coded J2ME application using "client-server" method and nothing else. It also de-validates the common FUD that there should be 100 different J2ME apps. No, it has a single version and one with less features for basic phones.

      Web based game is another chance which keeps getting missed since all Nokia devices run a Webkit based browser. I am sure it is just matter of time for a Webkit based Windows Mobile browser too.

  62. Re:So... by zonker · · Score: 0

    Seems like the review process should be handled by a democratic process with a benevolent dictator overseeing it. This way people can judge the quality but if something really crap, infringing, offensive, etc. gets posted and even makes it through the users (perhaps because of a joke like the wolf t-shirts on Amazon) it can be rejected by Apple. In the same way rejections made by users would be overseen by Apple.

  63. The Other Problem by Enderandrew · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The rich get richer. Browsing the App Store, you see the most popular apps at the top. There is no power search for apps with the highest user ratings. I really can't find what I'm looking for.

    New app developers start at the bottom and have to compete against popular apps already ingrained at the top.

    I'm writing for an App Review site right now that hopes to help alleviate that.

    --
    http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
  64. Re:So... by n00854180t · · Score: 1

    Want to run more than one app at a time on the iPhone? Oh wait.

  65. This happens in EVERY iPhone discussion by erroneus · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There are generally two polarized camps:

    1. Apple is too restrictive
    2. It's Apple's game, it's a damned good game, and if you don't want to play it, then go home!

    Both camps have some valid points and the biggest problem is that the second camp effectively refuses to see the validity of the first camp. The first camp's complaints have nothing to do with the [defensive] position of the second camp. In fact, you can both love and admire the iPhone and still think that Apple is a bunch of jerks with Nazi policies.

    But it is such a repetitive and pointless cycle. Neither side will convince anyone of the other side to see it their way.

    Personally, I am in the first camp. I won't voluntarily buy an iPhone until someone sets up a jail-broken app store from which to distribute the apps Apple doesn't approve of. And frankly, there are many phones that are LOTS better than the iPhone so it's a moot point really. Still -- let people complain and maybe one day Apple will listen... I have no reason to believe they will. Apple is more stubborn than Apple's fans are.

    1. Re:This happens in EVERY iPhone discussion by babyrat · · Score: 1

      someone sets up a jail-broken app store from which to distribute the apps Apple doesn't approve of

      it's called Cydia and is available for all jailbroken iPhones.

    2. Re:This happens in EVERY iPhone discussion by dafing · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I love hearing about people who swear they will buy an iPhone as soon as Apple does X, ha! I'm sure Steve Jobs sits about reading /. all day, and when he sees a comment like "i wont buy an iPhone until...." he must bolt upright and say "cripes! I'll get right on it!"

      I hope you do get an iPhone soon! I got an unlocked original iPhone before they were out in my country, I dont see a point for jailbroken iPhones (unless its to get around the activation like I needed) as the App Store is AMAZING. Im sorry there are people having problems, however there are so many gems in the App Store that I truly dont believe exist elsewhere, and I definitely dont think there are any better phones out! I love my iPhone, and wouldnt trade it just for a greater MP camera or a clamshell form factor. Its built like a piece of jewellery, even the box is amazing, the iPhone OS is far beyond other phones, I love my iPhone and couldnt consider anything else! I do see places for improvement, nothing is perfect remember! I wish multitasking were available, however the Pre etc is not available here in New Zealand, and its that crummy CDMA that 2 countries in the world use, whats up with that! Thats a far worse thing than "no multitasking" wouldnt you agree? If you cant even make a phone call on your smartphone, who cares about App switching?

      Hope you get an iPhone soon! Get it off plan, jailbroken etc. Mine cost under 500 american, I got it before it were out in my country and I only pay for what I use, my phone costs me $50 american or less a YEAR to run.

      --
      --- ...or a new slashdot signature. Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all
    3. Re:This happens in EVERY iPhone discussion by erroneus · · Score: 1

      Guess I should have mentioned I still haven't gotten beyond the thing about not having a removable battery. Talk all day about replacement guarantees and such, but what about those inadvertent roaming charges and privacy issues? "Off" does not mean what you think it means when it comes to mobile phones. And does Apple honor any such guarantees when you use your phone in ways Apple doesn't allow? That is, can I still have a replacement warranty even after I use it jailbroken with my own carrier? I'm doubting that. And I'm not going to change carriers just to get a phone.

    4. Re:This happens in EVERY iPhone discussion by dotgain · · Score: 1

      I love hearing about people who swear they will buy an iPhone as soon as Apple does X, ha! I'm sure Steve Jobs sits about reading /. all day, and when he sees a comment like "i wont buy an iPhone until...." he must bolt upright and say "cripes! I'll get right on it!"

      You don't think at least someone on Apple staff might be perusing the news sites and forums and reporting their findings regularly?

    5. Re:This happens in EVERY iPhone discussion by dafing · · Score: 1
      People have been complaining since before the iPhone came out, you dont see Jobs at a Stevenote saying "user 630123 of slashdot.org, we have granted your request, now please buy our phone, please?" do you? No! :)

      I hope Apple do pay attention to sites to get new ideas, but I dont think its likely they will change based on one persons opinion. You can always pray though! :)

      --
      --- ...or a new slashdot signature. Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all
    6. Re:This happens in EVERY iPhone discussion by dafing · · Score: 1
      Ok, so what phone do you currently have? Windows Mobile? Pre? G1? Put those against an iPhone and tell me you really luuuuuurve the non iPhone :)

      I'll stop being silly now. If a removable battery is a big deal, I'm sorry ok, its a bit like having the money to buy a Ferrari etc, the car of your dreams, and then not doing it because you want a diesel version. I understand that for some very heavy users having replaceable batteries COULD be a very important thing, but I think for basically normal people, >majority, it wouldnt be a dealbreaker.

      Privacy issues? Compared to what, a G1 running Android, Googles OS? You cant really trust anyone with your data, I'm sure its being stockpiled against us. But its like the Mcnealy quote, "you have zero privacy. Get over it" or whatever. If you trust Google over Apple, thats cool, I dont see them as any different really.

      Dude, look up "jailbroken" ok? Im not blowing sunshine up your butt, its pretty much a "get out of jail free" card for you. As I said, I got an iPhone that never came out in my country, naturally my iPhone thats sitting on the desk in front of me, it wanted to connect to Cingular/AT&T, it was basically saying "hey, cant find AT&T, so emergency calls only". I updated to 3.0 recently and found it did that until re-jailbroken with QuickPWN. It wouldnt do anything but ask me to activate it (to AT&T which I cant do obviously) in different languages on the screen, and it showed "no sim" with my Vodafone NZ sim inside.

      Jailbreak it, 20 minutes or so later, and its up and running on Vodafone. Switching carriers for a phone? Thats only in America! Seriously!

      Buy an iPhone online, get a secondhand one if you cant find them easily new, although you should be able to, pay "500 bucks" or whatever, and the phone is yours. You can put any sim on it, you could put a sim card from a chinese network in it, anything. Thats what unlocking is, it was part of the Jailbreak that I did, jailbreak and unlock.

      If you want an iPhone, really want one, you can get around "no removable battery and waaa I have to change carriers". Just jailbreak and unlock, and try living without multiple batteries, Im sure you can do it :) Good luck Amigo.

      --
      --- ...or a new slashdot signature. Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all
    7. Re:This happens in EVERY iPhone discussion by erroneus · · Score: 1

      Please stop evangelizing.

      I use a blackberry. It's reliable. The Pearl series is compact. I can replace the batteries and I keep a spare charged and handy for when I need one. As for privacy issues, I mean being trackable and the mic being remotely accessible. Clearly you don't understand the technologies. Being able to remove the battery is a big deal. LiIon batteries wear out just like other batteries do. LiIon batteries will even heat up and explode if you are not careful. Being able to remove and replace the battery addresses many concerns including the ability to replace the single most likely point of failure, being trackable and eavesdroppable simply because you can't remove the battery. (And don't bring up paranoia or the old "if you haven't done anything wrong, you have no worries" crap. FWIW, I haven't ever run without a battery in my phones, but should the need ever arise, I like having the option... just like the right to bear arms... I don't need a gun today and probably not tomorrow, but I like having the right.)

      And we are talking about a handset... a ridiculously expensive handset... one that is the target of theft all the time. If I am to spend that kind of money, I want guarantees... guarantees that I won't get from Apple if I don't march to their tune exclusively. No Sale.

    8. Re:This happens in EVERY iPhone discussion by dafing · · Score: 1
      Im not some troll you know, I've had quite reasonable points so far dont you think?

      I didnt think you could have a BB though, sorry.

      My cousin just moved from her Pearl to a iPhone 3G, got it secondhand, and loves it very much so far. She paid about $600 american for a 6 month old iPhone, sold exclusively by Vodafone NZ, put her new Telecom XT (other carrier's new GSM network) sim card in...it just works! No hacking needed, most phones worldwide are not locked to a carrier like in the US market.

      Have you played around with an iPhone before? If you are dead against an iPhone and love your Blackberry, thats cool, maybe think about an iPod Touch then, you can probably get most of the cool things of the iPhone on that, no GPS tracking your every move, no data plan/carriers to worry about ... :)

      Ridiculously Expensive? How much is a new Pearl? And a new iPhone, if you bought them brand new and "unsubsidised" or whatever you might call it where you live. Here in NZ I never see people with BlackBerries, and they often cost more than the iPhone does outright! Checking vodafone NZ here, a brand new out of stock (maybe not on sale here yet?) iPhone 3GS 32GB is ....1320 NZD, a standard Blackberry Bold is 1200, the Pearl (its called the 8110) is 900, so 400 dollars more for a top of the line iPhone, the 32GB most expensive one, than the cheapest, not so new Blackberry. The cheapest iPhone 3G (8GB) is basically 980 NZ. http://www.vodafone.co.nz/iphone/8gb-iphone-3g.jsp

      For all the cool features, the sex appeal, the apps, you wouldnt pay an extra 80 NZD (probably about $50 american) for an iPhone? 50 american dollars, my guess, is really not that much money if you really want the iPhone.

      If people want to steal iPhones, its because they are so cool! Nobody goes "oh man, lets steal a 30GB brown Zune!" do they? They want something cool! You really consider "mass appeal", "coolness" to be a negative thing?!

      We've said all we really can expect to say, I dont expect you to rush off and buy an iPhone, I just wanted to mention some of the things you were not 100% right about. I know there are people who like their Crackberries, dont worry, I wont put you in rehab :)

      Have a great day :)

      --
      --- ...or a new slashdot signature. Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all
    9. Re:This happens in EVERY iPhone discussion by dotgain · · Score: 1

      I didn't mean that they would automatically grant the wishes of every single person complaining, merely consider them. Since sales seem to be doing well, it follows Apple aren't exactly desperate for more, any concessions they make would only be because it benefits them. Accordingly, I think your second sentence is bang on.

  66. Ridiculous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This app is crap. This developer is crap. This whole piece is crap.

    The approval process for the app store sucks because crap-hounds like this are democratically allowed the same amount of approval time as genuine app developers. There is nothing but crap on the app store because Apple allows people to DUMP HTML INTO A WEBKIT PACKAGE AND SELL IT ON THE APP STORE.

    This guy is what is wrong with the app store. Everything he did is what is wrong with the app store. His cr(app) should have been rejected by Apple until the end of time because it is crap. It should have been a web app from moment one, instead he decided to waste everyone's time and further reduce the already abysmal S/N ratio on the app store.

  67. Apple has a one time cost of $100 == !correct by DaveyJJ · · Score: 2, Informative

    Apple has an *annual* fee of $100 to anyone, not a one time cost. You pay your $100 each year to continue to be part of the dev program. Myself and several devs I know have just past our one year anniversary and have had to pony up next years $100 fee.

    --
    DaveyJJ
    1. Re:Apple has a one time cost of $100 == !correct by yabos · · Score: 1

      Yes, and I think that if you don't renew, your applications will get removed from the store. They're signed with expiring certificates.

    2. Re:Apple has a one time cost of $100 == !correct by AndrewNeo · · Score: 1

      That is correct, thank you.

  68. Re:So... by MBCook · · Score: 1

    One of the reasons for that is thought to be that it was hard to come up with a good interface for managing multiple open applications on a handheld device. The Pre seems to have a good idea there.

    The other reason, and probably the bigger, is battery life. Ars Technica seems to agree with me.

    I don't really find it to be a problem, it's been rare it annoyed me. Still, I'd rather have this limitation than the problem that Blackberry / WinMo / Palm users can face and have to constantly think about if I want to quit an application or switch out of it for battery life purposes.

    It's a trade off, and right now I think Apple is on the right side of it.

    --
    Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
  69. Over 65,000 apps, you say? by Jay+L · · Score: 4, Funny

    That's a suspicious number... Clearly Apple must be rejecting so many iPhone apps because the App Store database can only hold 65,536 apps!

  70. Re:The review process certainly has its flaws, but by salimma · · Score: 1

    Thanks for the reply. Both options certainly are valid, and it's not as if Apple has a clear-cut policy w.r.t. ebooks on the App Store (though Jobs is known to have a rather bizarrely dismissive attitude towards reading). I guess it boils down to two separate issues: usability, and ease-to-publish.

    Usability-wise, for light reading having individual book "apps" might save time. Then again, for heavy readers, or for readers who like organizing their book collection (sort by author name, sort by title, by year etc.) individual apps can't cut it. Also, different ebook apps will inevitably have different interfaces.

    This ties it to the second point. As long as Apple acts as a gatekeeper, and with its current byzantine approval process, any bugfix, as you pointed out in the article, cannot be pushed in a timely manner. Worse -- say you have n books, all prepared in the same way. You'd have to push n updates, all of them might have to be resubmitted if they get rejected!

    Both suggests that, while yes, Apple's App Store poses commercial risks (wasn't there a commercially-developed emulator that got rejected too), it might not be an effective conduit for books anyway. Between Stanza (for free books) and Kindle (for paid books), there are ways to publish digitally without running afoul of the censors.

    --
    Michel
    Fedora Project Contribut
  71. Where's that Carterfone Judge when we need him? by theodp · · Score: 1

    Any lawful device: 40 years after the Carterfone decision - Forty years ago today the Federal Communications Commission started a revolution by standing up to AT&T. Without it, we wouldn't get to buy our set-top boxes or a wireless broadband network where we will be able to attach any lawful device and use any lawful application.

  72. Advice to Peter by magamiako1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's a fucking Ebook. Why the hell do you need javascript?

    From what others have been pointing out you've been trying to do something naughty or odd and you're getting called out on it. You just won't admit that you're at fault and would rather just take the shot at Apple.

    I certainly rather enjoy that you make note to call out Apple for their vague reasons for denying your application, but yet you have not been very open exactly as to what has been rejected. You could very well post the source code to your application if you were this desperate to call Apple out, but you won't, because chances are someone, somewhere, will call bullshit on you. The fact is, that Apple is vague because they might not have all of the source available--but you do. And you are the only one that can change what you're doing, not them.

    1. Re:Advice to Peter by mgblst · · Score: 1

      He put in javascript so it is easier to read. You press the bottom of the screen, and it scrolls down, you press the top and it scrolls up. Maybe you press twice to get back to the menu. You want an easy way to read, and it is easier doing it this way then swiping with your finger 1000s of times. Well, at least he thinks so.

    2. Re:Advice to Peter by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      It's a [...] Ebook. Why the hell do you need javascript?

      It because there are no other ebook readers for iPhone, especially ones with stores that could sell his book.

      Seriously, please don't write any more single-use ebook readers! I guarantee they won't be as good as Stanza or the Kindle App, and I don't want to have my library spread across 100 little wonky apps. This is a solved problem. Quit reinventing the solution. Please?

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  73. Everyone will complain, but... by afabbro · · Score: 1

    ...if you buy a plot in a walled garden, don't be upset that the gardener is fussy what people can plant in it.

    I honestly don't understand why anyone is surprised by this. How exactly did you think Apple was going to behave? Are there other situations where a big bureaucracy has to approve something based on its own changing, arbitrary, vague guidelines that have worked out well?

    --
    Advice: on VPS providers
  74. the more things change by strack · · Score: 1

    i cant really say im suprised at apples attitude. this same sort of control freak mentality over the hardware and the software is what made them lose out to ibm/msdos back in the day.

    1. Re:the more things change by dotgain · · Score: 1

      Yeah, just like they're losing out in the smartphone market today (/s)

  75. You could go back to web-based (sorta) by Salamanders · · Score: 1

    Recent blog post on the ins and outs of what has recently been enabled in the latest iPhone browser. Summary: close, but no cigar yet - until photo upload is supported, no-go. And of course, the app store handles the payment!

  76. blog post by Tom · · Score: 1

    One developer whining about his rejection. Shouldn't this have been posted to a blog, or something? Did I miss the memo where /. was turned into YouBlog?

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  77. Re:So... by AnyoneEB · · Score: 1

    I remember reading that WebOS included a Palm OS emulator, but no one seems to mention it in reviews. Did I misunderstand? It seems like Palm should be heavily pushing the fact that there is a huge catalog of Palm OS PDA apps. I assume this would still leave the Palm Pre far behind the iPhone in application support due to modern smart phone applications probably making heavy use of internet access, but it would still cover a lot, especially in the category of games.

    --
    Centralization breaks the internet.
  78. Just looking at PhoneGap... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just looking at PhoneGap, I have to say that it extends baseline JavaScript classes to implement applications using HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. So basically, it allows someone to write an application, and then using the "online mode", pretty much allows the replacement of the application with an entirely new application based on repurposing the embedded links (or in the case of centralized hosting of the application, just putting different JavaScript on the page). All it would take is one person with an approved PhoneGap application and a case of sour grapes to, for example, upload your entire contact list to their server just by changing the index.html on your server.

    Further, this would be externally exploitable by DNS poisoning, cross-site scripting attacks, or intentional transparent proxy modification of the code that runs the app, using transparent proxy interposition of the code by, for example, a public access point offering redirects. I would have to say that this is incredibly dangerous stuff, even if the original author had no evil intent.

    I'd also point out that because the JavaScript interpreter is in fact an interpreter, these extensions permit effective execution of arbitrary JaveScript code that acesses the internal interfaces, with no way of interposing a signing authority on the intermediate UIWebView in which the interpreted code is running. You'd need to sandbox external web content in a separate UIWebView when it's linked to from your application for this to be safe at all.

    So for the same reason other interpreters are not allowed, my guess is that the PhoneGap apps have been rejected: you can sign an interpreter, but the interpreter isn't going to enforce signatures on the interpreted code itself - the HTML, the CSS, and the JavaScript. Even if you were to work around this by putting in signature enforcement as part of your extension to JavaScript classes, say by putting the signature block in comments in the code being interpreted, it's not enough to keep the UIWebView classes in the app from being visible to other code in "online mode".

    I could see exactly one way this might be allowed: put the HTML, CSS, and JavaScript into a text section in the binary so that it could be covered by the signature, and don't allow "online" mode in the extended JavaScript UIWebView itself. This is similar to the way code for a number of games is allowed to run in an emulator: by tying the emulator instance to a signed image of the ROM, rather than arbitrarily allowing the use of third party (not explicitly approved) ROMs as data input to the emulator.

    My guess is that some applications were allowed only because the people reviewing the code didn't have a clue as to what it actually does, or how bad it actually is from an attack perspective.

    Also while most of the code is under an MIT license, the add-on stuff isn't, it's largely under the GPL, which is also a real problem, given that the App store counts as a "conveyance" (this has been commented on at length in other forums).

    -- AC

    1. Re:Just looking at PhoneGap... by jcr · · Score: 1

      My guess is that some applications were allowed only because the people reviewing the code didn't have a clue as to what it actually does, or how bad it actually is from an attack perspective.

      I concur. As i've mentioned elsewhere in this discussion, Apple did make mistakes, but their mistake wasn't in rejecting the app in question, it was in approving other apps that use the PhoneGap.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    2. Re:Just looking at PhoneGap... by peterwayner · · Score: 1

      Well, I never activated any online mode and that's pretty obvious from my HTML. It's actually easier for them to check than binary code.

      You're absolutely right about things that can happen in online mode, but again I fail to see why that's either (1) much of a problem or (2) against Apple's regulations. They ship Safari, after all.

      Section 3.3.1 states

      No interpreted code may be downloaded or used in an Application except for code that is interpreted and run by Apple's Documented APIs and built-in interpreter(s)."

      Isn't UIWebView a documented part of the API? And didn't Apple write the Javascript interpreter?

    3. Re:Just looking at PhoneGap... by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Please mod up. Best summary of why PhoneGap isn't allowed.

    4. Re:Just looking at PhoneGap... by peterwayner · · Score: 1

      I've been thinking about this a bit more. These dangers sound scary, but aren't they an even bigger problem for native apps? Certainly DNS poisoning could affect Yelp, Urbanspoon or any native app that goes to a server looking for data. And those servers could also replace any of those reviews with something lurid or unfortunate. They could change the behavior of the app after the fact very easily.

      And aren't these dangers a real problem for the ad networks because the ad networks always change the content after the app ships. They have to.

      At least PhoneGap would dump any new HTML in the UIWebView sandbox where it would be a bit safer. No one knows what the native code is doing. Doesn't this sound like PhoneGap is actually safer and easier for Apple to police?

    5. Re:Just looking at PhoneGap... by drerwk · · Score: 1
      Peter - Did you look at PhoneGapDelegate.m and specifically the webView() method? The comment reads

      This is where most of the magic happens... We take the request(s) and process the response. From here we can re direct links and other protocalls[sic] to different internal methods.

      It took all of 5 minutes for me to find the interpreter in PhoneGap. The method constructs a method name and argument, and thanks to Obj-C, you can make a call
      [obj performSelector:NSSelectorFromString(constructedMethodName) withArguments:args withObject:options];
      This is a one line interpreter that will run any code that is downloaded.
      The summary says "simply to dump an HTML version of his book into UIWebView" and this is funny, because I did exactly this to put the instructions manual in my game Repton. It took maybe 7 lines of code. Your whole app could be 30 lines of code, and you would not need PhoneGap and you would not be having these problems. I would be willing to write this for you cheap.
      So just to summarize, PhoneGap includes an interpreter beyond Apples javascript interpreter. In fact, since Obj-C supports Dynamic Loading, the above interpreter could be used to add classes and methods to an already running program. Almost sounds like LISP; which I think is more powerful than JavaScript.

    6. Re:Just looking at PhoneGap... by peterwayner · · Score: 1

      I have mailed Apple many times asking them what is wrong with PhoneGap and heard nothing. Many PhoneGap developers tell me that they've also asked Apple again and again for what is so problematic and no one has ever offered what you do.

      But I'm not sure that I understand the scope of the problem when you say it will "run any code that is downloaded." I think you pretty much need to write the Objective C before hand and I've never added any extra functions.

      While I appreciate the pointer you've provided here, I'm still not sure why this is any different from any arbitrary native application that reads data from the web. Every native app could be said to offer the same opportunity.

      One of the classic philosophical tropes from theoretical computer science is that there's no real distinction between data and code.

      But this is getting away from my overall point that the AppStore review process is damaged by bad communication and random reactions. The debate over the potential security problems with PhoneGap is a deep one that is better conducted in the open. I hope you'll have the time to write a deeper note about this to the PhoneGap mailing list.

      And perhaps you're right that I would have been better off writing something from scratch. But I think there's a real value to working with an open source group because many eyes help fix many potential bugs.

      Thanks again for writing.

    7. Re:Just looking at PhoneGap... by drerwk · · Score: 1

      Peter - Obj_C is a very dynamic language. As an Obj-C program runs you can call method like, class_addMethod(). See the Objective-C Runtime reference for details. This method modifies the currently running code by adding a method, the implementation of which is a raw pointer. If you understand enough of Obj-C to understand what the method I pointed to in PhoneGapDelegate.m does, you would know that it is a completely general interpreter; pretty neat that you can do that in a single line of Obj-C, but not really different from things you can do in LISP - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eval.
      To go further, if anywhere in your html you point to an outside server - maybe something like an about page at your website, your app will run whatever it gets from that page. Again, go to the webView() method and you can see the code extract any "gap:" commands and prepare them for running. As I said, a clever progarmmer can make this do anything that can be done in Obj-C, effectively completely replace the App that Apple approves with an entirely different app.

      Now you know that PhoneGap has its own embedded interpreter which can make any iPhone API call at all, you should understand why your app was rejected - in fact if it was ever accepted this was probably a mistake on Apple's part.
      I have to assume you are not really familiar with Obj-C, because your claim that you only load a UIWebKitView, is clearly not true if you need to use PhoneGap.
      And why is Apple not giving you details, because it would cost too much for them to spend the time to make a clear answer.

    8. Re:Just looking at PhoneGap... by peterwayner · · Score: 1

      While I see your point about how this might be abused in narrow circumstances with techniques that I never included in my code, I'm still wondering whether this is a more general problem for any native App.

      The more I contemplate issues like this about PhoneGap, it seems to me that any native app that makes a network call could do much the same thing. And so given that, wouldn't this technique be a danger for any native app?

    9. Re:Just looking at PhoneGap... by drerwk · · Score: 1
      Peter, does your html have any external links, like to an about? Even if not, you did include an easily exploitable hole in your App if you included PhoneGap. You included an interpreter which is quite explicitly against the terms of App Store approval. Apple is trying to prevent any possible malicious code, and the possibilities are pretty much open with PhoneGap.

      The more I contemplate issues like this about PhoneGap, it seems to me that any native app that makes a network call could do much the same thing. And so given that, wouldn't this technique be a danger for any native app?

      No, not generally. Any native app that makes a network call, collects a program and runs it via an interpreter, yes, which is what PhoneGap does.
      Please, before you reply, go back, look at, and understand the code I pointed you to. Convince yourself that it is a fully general interpreter. I would imagine that Apple looks closely at any code that uses the performSelector:NSSelectorFromString() method; they might even reject all apps that use it.

    10. Re:Just looking at PhoneGap... by peterwayner · · Score: 1

      Actually, I don't think it does. All of the about.html stuff is bundled with the app. It would only make sense. The GOLD app might have a URL to some of my other books.

      I can tell you that there are a number of projects based on PhoneGap in the AppStore. So I'm sure that Apple isn't testing for these combinations of Cocoa calls although perhaps they should.

      Thanks again for the pointer.

  79. A land of limited opportunity by Douglas+Goodall · · Score: 1

    After many years in the software industry, one of the more obvious things I have learned is to write applications to be portable so that you can take advantage of opportunities to support different platforms. This is one of the ways a smart developer can earn back the time and money invested in an application. A number of my clients have had their software chosen to be ported onto a new platform for its rollout. For the people that know Mac programming already, handling the iPhone may not be that big a leap. Simply put, an iPhone app written with Apple's tools is not going to port easily to any other platform. If the apps could be written in Java, developers could leverage the ubiquitous Java environment to provide the desired portability. Apple decided not to support Java on the iPhone. That means that by design, they want developers to lock their applications to the iPhone environment. This means that if you write an iPhone application and Apple decides not to allow it in the App Store, you will not be able to port your software to an alternate platform without a total re-write. I decided not to play "Engineering Poker" with Apple as I cannot afford to invest enough time writing a quality application when it is a roll of the dice whether it will be accepted, updates may not be accepted and users might blame me, and the user's are Apple's clients and not mine. I just don't feel the love from Apple that platform vendors used to show for their developers, who are in a sense, their partners. Microsoft and Apple both look an their developers as customers instead of channel partners, and they are ignoring synergy that has made others wealthy in the past.

    1. Re:A land of limited opportunity by PeeShootr · · Score: 1

      I have to call BS on this comment. There is no reason that you can't write an iPhone app with all of its business logic in C or C++ and only do the UI in Obj-C/Cocoa. This is just like writing any other n-tier application with C or C++ business components and a modular/thin front end and a database abstaction layer. You can use the business logic anywhere and just re-write the interface to take advantage of the interface options on your target platform.
      Java? Please. No one would ever buy an app for the iPhone or a Mac that looks as shitty as any Swing or AWT Java application. Hell, I wouldn't even want to run that crap on Linux or Windows.

    2. Re:A land of limited opportunity by Douglas+Goodall · · Score: 1

      You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I resent you calling my considered opinion BS. Writing a fully capable and efficient application for the iPhone would mean embracing the frameworks provided by Apple and those frameworks are not transportable. To not use the frameworks would be to go back fifteen years and have to write everything from scratch instead of leveraging off functionality provided by the frameworks. It would be like going back to raw sockets after having enjoyed Python's internet support. By the time you fold in all the multimedia components and the communications components and the database as well as your business logic, that is way too much to code by hand and do the required QA as opposed to making use of the provided functionality which is what contemporary developers do.

  80. Exaggerate much? by uofitorn · · Score: 1

    Wayner's long piece is an extended analogy comparing Apple to the worst of Soviet-era bureaucracy.

    Ah, classic kdawson. Your hyperbole is truly without peer.

    --
    "What kind of music do pirates listen to?" -Paul Maud'dib
    "Yeeeaaarrrrr n' Bee!!" -Stilgar, Leader of Sietch Tabr
  81. A hotbed of mediocrity? by lennier · · Score: 3, Funny

    Wouldn't that be more like a 'lukewarmbed'?

    --
    You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
  82. I agree. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    I thought this guy's name seemed familiar: http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/14/2037236

    Maybe it's just me and my experiences in real life, but this guy reminds me of a doctor. Smart, capable of doing complex stuff... but always convinced that he's in the right, and that he should always get his way. If he doesn't get his way, that... that's... that's just unacceptable!!

    I don't mean to troll, and I don't mean to insult beyond what anyone deserves. But I just want to point out that we have a *very* one-sided view of the situation. From reading his stuff it seems like he is in the right (and I agree with some things he says), but I can't help but think that there just *might* be some bias in a story told by the protagonist with mild hyperbole. If it happens twice, I'm doubly suspicious.

    Again, I agree with some things he says. And again, maybe this is a symptom of me and the people I work with. But it seems to me that he complains a lot, is self-centered, and thinks he knows everything (but doesn't). No offense, Peter, but that's how you're rubbing me.

    Say what you will about these words - I can be hypocritical at times.

  83. rendering html is interpreting it by valexa · · Score: 1

    by using a UIWebView you realize that the content sits outside , and apple has to scrutinize that content , and if that content has javascript or even html , technically they are both code you are interpreting.

    1. Re:rendering html is interpreting it by peterwayner · · Score: 1

      Hmm. I don't see why it's code that I'm interpreting. Didn't Apple write Webkit? Didn't Apple create the UIWebView? Didn't Apple write the version of Javascript embedded in it? That sounds like it fits entirely in the exception clause of 3.3.1:

      No interpreted code may be downloaded or used in an Application except for code that is interpreted and run by Apple's Documented APIs and built-in interpreter(s)."

  84. peterwayner Slashvertisement take two by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    This is the same author once again using slashdot to advertise one of his books, by blaming someone else for destroying it. First he was whining that pirates were sharing his book on the internet (dubious at best that very many were even interested in downloading it in the first place); now he's whining that Apple won't distribute his book in a cheesy UI software that he wrote without following Apple's guidelines (software that appears useless for anything other than reading his book). Forgive me for thinking it looks an awful lot like he intentionally violated Apple's rules to get the software rejected from the App store so he could use slashdot to plug a book about free software that's almost a decade old -- something people otherwise probably wouldn't go looking for on the App store in the first place.

    By the way, according to this page, the book is already available for free on the App store. Is there a compelling reason the store should have copies of this book in two different display formats?

  85. apple rejected my art b/c it was too "minimal" by essetesse · · Score: 2, Interesting

    a lot of these responses assume it's just TOS violations but they reject apps for many other reasons. i am a professional artist and i have made a bunch of very simple websites as part of my art practice - a domain with a simple image or animation. i made an art app for the iphone along these lines.... apple rejected it outright because it was too "minimal" for their tastes. this frustrates me to no ends... who are they to say what my art should be? that my work needs to be complex. clearly this has made me less keen on it as a platform, and many of my artfriends are second-guessing making apps. another example - an app i developed for a client - needed rating because there's a video of someone saying "girl, you looking good". this is apple's notion of what mature content is. they're pretty over the top, they make tipper gore look like g.g. allin. what makes matters worse - it took them FOUR WEEKS to tell us this. and we have adjusted the rating and have now waited another TWO WEEKS and they haven't reviewed it again yet. this is crippling to a business. this is not internet time, this is boat-trip-across-the-atlantic time. very frustrating.

    1. Re:apple rejected my art b/c it was too "minimal" by itsdapead · · Score: 1

      who are they to say what my art should be?

      Er, they'd be the people who own the enormously successful distribution system that you want to distribute your work through. You know: the people who pay for those expensive TV ads promoting the iPhone and App Store - and, yes, the people who are currently coining it in doing so, but who are therefore responsible for maintaining the image which lets them continue to do so.

      this is Apple's notion of what mature content is

      No, this is Apple's notion of how paranoid a company with such a high media profile needs to be to avoid getting lynched by neopuritans.

      Can I heartily commend to you a distribution medium called "The World Wide Web?" You can put whatever you want on it (and face the consequences yourself if you upset someone), it even works on iPhones and if people can't bear to be without your art when they're offline, they can download it and stick it in iPhoto.

      it took them FOUR WEEKS to tell us this. and we have adjusted the rating and have now waited another TWO WEEKS and they haven't reviewed it again yet.

      You meen a global publisher with a hugely successful distribution network and a waiting list of authors gives you a descision in UNDER A MONTH? I'd rank that as pretty bloody good service! If you're regularly dealing with publishers/distributors who do better than that then you really, really don't know you've been born.

      --
      In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
  86. Re:So... by Macrat · · Score: 1

    The only Java app that I can get to launch on my Sony Ericsson P910 is Opera. Most Java phone apps are only written for the Nokia phones and rarely work elsewhere.

    Java = write once, debug everywhere.

  87. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have a G1

    The software is amazing, developing for for it is a breeze. Is it as easy for email a qr code link to the app package with the IPhone? I haven't got root yet, I don't need it. there is one app i can't get, Wireless Tethering. Usb tethering works though.

    Only problem is the hardware sucks, I can't listen to music and browse my my email at the same time comfortably, Actually this kinda sucks, My music skips when jogging when i try to pull up My Tracks.

    I can't wait to see some of the new phones coming out, I think it's just HTC i don't like.

  88. Re:So... by moxitek · · Score: 1

    I know that the discussion is based around the "official" app stores, but because of the Pre's open nature there's a huge homebrew app scene. And while it may not be able to support a great gaming framework (yet), I've heard of really cool projects like a Doom emulator and others. The app store for the Pre may be limited now, but already the homebrew scene is looking healthy and has a lot of great offerings.

  89. http://mehmet.diyebiri.net by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can you just post a link to a bug tracker in your product description?

  90. this is how it works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This info is about 3 months out of date - things may have changed (though It doesn't seem so)

    Apple has a review group with a designated headcount of about 20.
    The way apple is set up, it is extremely hard to get more headcount.

    The reviewers are low wage automatons. They get some training in UI rules and are given a bunch of standard things to look out for.

    They have approximately a 50% headcount turnover -Per Month- and struggle to even keep the group up to the approved 20 size

    The rejections for using unapproved frameworks are purely based on reviewers figuring out what it looks like the developer has done.
    e.g. folks will get rejected for using something that looks like coverflow because the reviewers have been told that coverflow is a private framework.
    however if the developer is using 'CovertFlow' (a coverflow clone that is written using open frameworks) then they'll probably get rejected too

    FWIW, three of my applications use private APIs and have been published. I take some pride in the fact that one app was rejected multiple times for using private APIs (when it wasn't) but was eventually approved - and now I have improved the app using private APIs without rejection.

    yup - I'm posting as AC. I really don't want to get punished by apple for passing on what I have heard

  91. So? by brunes69 · · Score: 1

    And if I as someone who owns a device want to run an app that I know "chews through battery" and/or "leaks memory like a sieve", but I don't care because I only have to run it for a few minutes per day, should that not be my right as a consumer?

    I honestly don't get why people constantly defend apple in regards to this. As long as all development is closed off in a "walled garden" I will never buy an iPhone.

    Google has it right with Android. A "walled garden" in the app store, *BUT ALSO RETAIN THE ABILITY TO INSTALL MANUALLY* for apps that are not allowed to be sold in the store.

    1. Re:So? by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      It's a free market. If Google has it right with Android then the will beat Apple in the market. However, what you should bear in mind is that the open approach to allowing any apps existed on smartphones before iPhone came along. Apple's iPhone business model beat them all.

  92. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh look, another dweeb afraid of other people prefering alternatives, and not wanting to be grouped with gay apple zealots.

  93. Kernel by codepunk · · Score: 1

    How would you like anyone to be able to add code to the mainline kernel without a review process? The iphone without
    a application review process is just as vulnerable to bad code as the kernel. Some idiot fires off a malloc loop in a app
    and crashes the phone, not exactly the user experience anyone wishes to promote. Yes the review process is painful but
    a necessary evil.

    --


    Got Code?
  94. Welcome by ChTh · · Score: 0

    Now iPhone devs know what it feels like to be in academic research with its system for "peer reviews". :-)

  95. why not, apple doesnt listen to their inbox by cheekyboy · · Score: 1

    win32 itunes bugs persist, proof they dont listen, and their stupid ass errors are worse than amiga guru codes.

    --
    Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
  96. coinflipping randomness, quantumness? by cheekyboy · · Score: 1

    Sounds like the other article re coin flipping random walking qantum story.

    OTOH, maybe you just got dealt with some idiot reviewer on contact whos contract wont be reviewed, who knows...

    Release a jail break version under a different name?

    --
    Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
  97. Re:The review process certainly has its flaws, but by peterwayner · · Score: 1

    Your point about the updates is well-taken. If I were to put out a big stream of books, I would think carefully about the best way to approach it. It's important to remember that this was as much an experiment in a new platform as a way to republish a book.

    Of course it's ironic to say that Kindle is a solution for publishing without censors. I can understand how Amazon got into trouble with the rights to 1984 but that doesn't make the platform any more stable or censor-free. It just means that there are two layers and thus two gatekeepers. I would be surprised if Apple shut down the Kindle or Stanza readers, but it's possible.

    Then there's the price. Both the Kindle and Stanza developers want their cut. I haven't priced their options. Perhaps they're cheaper than Amazon's 30%. But I've heard numbers that are much worse.

    Also, if I remember correctly, neither the Kindle or the Stanza reader was available when I started this experiment. Things have certainly changed.

  98. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who cares, it's java and it's slow as shit

  99. Wait, there's more, by rednip · · Score: 1

    Wait to after the break and we'll tell you about the potentially dangerous substance, that's sure to be in your house, and even in your children's bath water. Hydrogen Dioxide and what it means to your family. Also, find out how the apple store, only launched a year ago will fail due to a author's trouble publishing a custom ebook. Later, we'll have an interview with Chicken Little and hear of his latest dire warnings. (appologies to Anderson Cooper, and many, many others)

    --
    The force that blew the Big Bang continues to accelerate.
  100. Re:So... by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

    so you can't run your code on your iPhone without ponying up.

    Well that's useful. Apple - it "Just Works".

  101. Re:So... by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

    I've had no problems running a range of Java apps downloaded from various places on my Motorola V980. It just works.

  102. Re:So... by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

    Windows Mobile has tons of apps, and a tradition of tiny little utilities costing $20.

    Yeah, and the Iphone App store has classics such as paying to display an animated graphic.

    You also ignore the billions of phones out there that can happily download using the common standard of Java. There's no need for a central app store. Yes, Java obviously doesn't have the flexibility of a native app, but for the vast majority of rubbish that people are getting excited over on these app stores, it can do the job (I mean, it can do things like a web browser or Google Maps, which I'd imagine are far more advanced that most of these "apps" on these stores). Also, many phones have traditionally offered applications via the networks, not the manufactureres, so again a comparison of what other phone OS makers have is flawed.

  103. Staying away from iPhone dev and purchase by mattr · · Score: 1

    I'm considering a new software development business and am seriously thinking not to use iPhone due to the business risk being discussed here.

    Also regarding business purchases, I have long been an Apple fan even when Apple has screwed its customers over and over, I moved to linux and then to windows if you can imagine that. I'm about ready to move back to Mac, or at least Parallels on Macbook, but this iPhone stuff is bugging me. Maybe I can do without? I am thinking.

    It also happens to be the reason holding me from buying an iPhone too. Colleagues have them, and they are neat for being able to access email when outside, but the Google phone also hit the stores here and I am mainly worried about closed apps -> not being able to hack, app review -> not an open market/might not be able to sell app, and finally risk of massive roaming charges.

    1. Re:Staying away from iPhone dev and purchase by my_left_nut · · Score: 1

      Agreed. I currently own an iPhone, and am otherwise happy with it. But the way these guys lock down their platform will stifle the development of decent applications. As more and more interesting apps become available for open platforms like the Palm Pre, you will see Apple begin to lose market share.

      By the time my battery starts to fail and I have to exchange the iPhone for another one, the number of available useful apps for other platforms might make me switch to something like the Pre.

  104. This isn't hard. by StreetStealth · · Score: 1

    There's a vastly better way of going about this.

    Sell your e-book through one of the commercial services that the iPhone's most popular ebook reader Stanza supports. Your book will be available to over a million iPhone / Touch users (not to mention the other outlets the particular book store may have), and since Stanza purchases are downloaded to the device, they can be read anywhere.

    Further, the app store is not a place to sell a book. I don't want an icon for a single book on my app launcher any more than I want an icon for an album on there. I want to go into Stanza to read, just like I want to go into iPod mode to listen.

    --
    Your mind is clear / The things that you fear / Will fade with how much you / Believe what you hear
  105. Re:So... by Rayban · · Score: 1

    Yeah, you nailed the point. If Apple allowed arbitrary apps to be downloaded from the web (outside of the App Store), this would be a non-issue.

    --
    æeee!
  106. Easy enough to fix by mbessey · · Score: 1

    If you submit the app with an availability date in the far future, it won't go live immediately after being approved. If you go in and change the availability date after you receive approval, it appears immediately.

    Having said that, I always forget to do it this way.

    1. Re:Easy enough to fix by NonUniqueNickname · · Score: 1

      Ah! I'll give it a try... If I remember =)

  107. Say it with me now... by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    ... the App Store model sucks. Can you imagine where we'd be today, if, say, Microsoft had thought up the App Store at the time it invented Windows? Say goodbye to Firefox, just as an example. There is absolutely no reason why Apple should have such total control over what runs on the iPhone. If nothing else, it's anti-competitive, and the federal government should be looking into it on that basis.

  108. Oh, jeebus by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    You've overlooked the biggest problem with your app: it's completely useless. Not even in a "fart app" sense, but more so. If Apple allows apps like yours, expect 10 million other applications just like it.

    There are ALREADY about 10 freakin' billion apps like that out there... all of which got approved by the soviet-style bureaucracy which is the app store.

    Lamest post EVAR.

  109. God, I can't even believe I'm hearing this on /. by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    How many of them are good? Well, quite honestly alot more are good than if there was no review process at all. If there wasn't a review process, we'd see apps that ignored or borked your settings, leaked memory like a sieve, chewed through your battery life out of ignorance, or hell - maybe we'd simply be looking at a deluge of carbon copy flashlight and porn apps, making the app store effectively useless. Hell, in my opinion (and I do have an iphone) the app store already has *too many* apps, and the quality on the ones there aren't quite high enough for my liking.

    So do what every other computer platform in the damn universe does - let everyone publish applications and have the market sort out the good from the bad. Chances are you posted this from a PC (in the larger sense, including Mac, *nix, etc) - did you use an "app store" to figure out what software to put on it? No? How did you ever survive? After all, there's must be a billion useless or even actively harmful applications out there. The answer, of course, is that you're a grown-up who can decide for him/herself what to put on your machine. Why can't I do the same with my iPhone?

  110. Or... by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    Apple doesn't reject apps because they're stupid, they reject them if they fail to comply with the terms stated in the developer program agreement.

    Or for no reason at all, apparently. In any case, the larger point is that I don't see why I should be limited to software that Apple feels is advantageous to themselves. I'd like, for example, to be able to run Firefox on my iPhone, but I can't, and for no other reason than Apple doesn't like competition.

  111. No, but... by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    If you're a development house and you commit resources and create a console game, is there an ironclad GUARANTEE that Walmart or Best Buy or Gamestop is going to stock it? No. The game may suck. The game may crash. And so on.

    But if I create a game and Best Buy doesn't want it, I can take it to Gamestop. If I write an iPhone application, and Apple doesn't want it, I can suck it. There is no reason for Apple to have this much control over the platform.

  112. A modest proposal by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    If turds like this guy's app were allowed, the "too many apps" problem would be 100x worse, mostly with "MAKE MONEY FAST" (or the "Web 2.0" equivalent) versions of his idea.

    Yeah, and the "too many apps" problem is even worse in the PC/Mac/*nix universe. Why, absolutely anyone can publish anything at all! We need to get someone (like Microsoft) to lock down our systems and vet all our apps for us. Think of how much safer and happier we'd be, protected from all the "bad" apps!

  113. Re:So... by DeathMagnetic · · Score: 1

    Wait for what now? Jailbreak and install Backgrounder.

  114. Re:God, I can't even believe I'm hearing this on / by wizzat · · Score: 1

    So do what every other computer platform in the damn universe does - let everyone publish applications and have the market sort out the good from the bad.

    You seem to be missing something: I don't want to have to sort through piles of crappy apps in order to find a decent app. I'm perfectly happy to have an official "store" or "repository" that's rejected the malware, filtered the crap out, and told the developers to fix the bugs.

    Chances are you posted this from a PC (in the larger sense, including Mac, *nix, etc) did you use an "app store" to figure out what software to put on it? No? How did you ever survive?

    Amusing. As a matter of fact, I did somewhat use an "app store" of sorts. And chances are, so do you but you're just too arrogant/ignorant to admit it. You see, I downloaded the apps I'm using from a stable apt repository, which is vetted and maintained by volunteers of a sort. And they tell people "No, your app/project can't get into this repository until you fix @bug_reports or for whatever other stupid reason I care to name". But we don't see you railing against the Ubuntu maintainers.

    After all, there's must be a billion useless or even actively harmful applications out there. The answer, of course, is that you're a grown-up who can decide for him/herself what to put on your machine. Why can't I do the same with my iPhone?

    There's a couple

    We've proven time and again that even grown ups don't have the common sense not to install malware (even that which actively announces itself as such) - even if they should (technically) be allowed to install "crap". The interesting bit is that "crappy software" colors people's perception of what they own. What would you think if someone said "oh look at my new phone" and you touched the screen and it crashed? Well you damn sure wouldn't buy it, and chances are they'd be really unhappy with it too. Thus, what Apple's doing by controlling all the apps that people put on their iphones is controlling the expectation that the phone *works* and works *well*.

    Even so, the complaints about the app store really boil down to (roughly) three complaints.

    1: I think Apple is draconian and evil and I want alternative/competing app stores! Well, let me ask you a couple of questions about where this leads. Are iphones going to keep working if people install random malware and broken apps on them? No. Is Apple going to make money off of the apps bought at a competing app store? No. Are there going to be entire "app stores" that distribute nothing but malware? Yes. Is this going to look bad for Apple? Yes. Should Apple do it? No. Is Apple losing money by not allowing this? No. Do they have any compelling reason to do it? No. Case closed.

    2: I WANT OPEN SOURCE SOFTWARE AND LINUX AND GREP RA RA RA. Again, this comes down to Apple controlling the user experience and guaranteeing a positive one. I'm sorry, but this is not the year of the Linux desktop and really it's not the year of the Linux phone either. User experiences tend to be pretty poor: see the Open Moko for a prime example. While cool to geeks like us, it wouldn't be cool to a geek like my wife who just wants the damn thing to be usable and work.

    3: I want to run an iPhone Botnet! Yeah, DIAF. The internet has enough of these.

    But logic for why it's bad for the Apple, bad for the iphone, and bad for the consumer market in general won't convince you. You're too busy riding your high horse to realize that what you're demanding simply does not make sense. You're too busy to look where your examples really point: to things like Windows (malware-bug-land) and Linux (Virutally unusable hacker-only-land). I mean really, if you're going to demand these things then you already know that the iphone is not for you. Why must you spew your drivel and pester those of us that just want a usable working device with a good solid high quality app store?

  115. I have absolutely no interest in the iPhone by Phil+Karn · · Score: 1

    I'm a big Mac and OSX fan. OSX is a good UNIX system that also makes a good development front end for Linux and BSD. But I have absolutely no interest in developing or even owning an iPhone. First, it doesn't work with CDMA networks like Verizon and Sprint. Second, it's not really your phone if you have to get Apple's permission to run a program on it. People really should avoid locked-down platforms like the iPhone. They're simply not worth it. Buy a small netbook instead.

  116. Apple doing great job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it really hurts when your app is not selected or delayed but one needs to be patient. everyone here is for money, thats why everyone chasing apple. so here is the catch, you must wait. only great apps are going to get selected. selecting the right one is no easy job. you need to appreciate the efforts some one is putting behind it.

  117. A book is not an app, and there is HTML 5 also by gig · · Score: 1

    First, the guy should not be "dumping" his book into an iPhone app and trying to use the App Store as his own personal book store. There are actual book stores who are setup to publish your electronic book, dumbass. They have different requirements and procedures from the App Store, and yes they will seem to make more sense to you since you are publishing a book! The iPhone can only show the first 200 apps you install as icons (you can get at them all with search) so it is unrealistic to think that users are going to fill up their home screen with one book per app. There is Kindle.app and about 200 other big name book readers alone.

    Secondly, I have no sympathy for complaints about native iPhone app development. If you don't like the end-to-end code-to-cash workflow of the CocoaTouch API, then you can make iPhone apps using the other API the iPhone supports: the totally open HTML 5. A bonus is that your app will also run on every other computing platform in the world except for Microsoft (and on Microsoft where the browser has been replaced with a modern browser.)

    Bringing the above 2 points together: if you have a book to publish, publish it as HTML 5 you stupid idiot. No, Apple won't collect all the monies for you. Too bad. Stop whining.

  118. Who cares about Apple? by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

    Their global market share is so tiny (2007/8 *sales*. Not to be confused by the total number of phones in active use!), and their lack of Java so ridiculous, that we professional developers couldn't care less. They are not worth the effort, just to make some Apple fanboys happy, who won't do anything but complain anyway, because your app got more than one clickweel.

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    1. Re:Who cares about Apple? by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Oh, and those sales numbers are *smartphone only* sales!

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  119. It's still possible to make $1 million with iPhone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. Port the shitty hangman / space war / tic-tac-toe app you wrote in Pascal in high school.

    2. Hire a graphic artist to do whimsical animations.

    3. Charge 99 cents.

    4. Get featured on front page.

    5. Profit!